Post by: Iituem on March 18, 2017, 08:44:48 am
Forenia remains at war, as it has since time immemorial. Six months ago, in the hotly disputed mountains of Forenia, an old ruin was discovered belonging to some pre-Forenian people. Contained within, amongst incidental treasure and corpses, were two wands and two spellbooks. Unfortunately, those bastard Moskurgers raided the camp at the last moment and you were only able to get away with half of the loot. Nevertheless, the discovery has revolutionised war; magic is real, and your nation has been able to train a handful of wizards based off the spellbook and wand you recovered. The only problem now is trying to figure out more spells and ways to make use of your magic to get one over on those bastard Moskurgers!
Torches light the streets and rain falls constantly from the sky. You are meeting around a table strewn with parchment and quills, in a longhouse under watch by the local King's guard. After a period of
You are the indomitable people of Arstotzka. Your people excel in the cold, wooded taiga from which you are come, and your armies consist primarily of small, flexible bands of close-combat warriors armed with axe and shield and led by chain-mail armoured swordsmen who excel at infantry combat and defensive strategy. Only a small proportion of your forces are archers, but they are highly skilled and equipped with longbows that are long ranged and are excellent at holding defensive positions. Your cavalry are moderately armoured and geared towards powerful charges, providing excellent support for your infantry once battle is met. Although your longships are slow, they can pack a lot of troops in their hulls, so in regions where you control the sea they provide a lot of support to main battles.
To play for this glorious side, post here. You can only play for either Arstotzka or Moskurg, so choose wisely. Out of respect for the other team, stay out of their thread. Post banter and such in the core thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163275.0).
To begin with, players should vote on which wand and spellbook their side has. You can only have one of each, so choose wisely.
To play, during the Design Phase either post a design for a new item or spell, or quote someone else's design and add a +1. You can only design or support one design, so if you change your mind go back and strike out your earlier post to make my life easier when totting up votes.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 910 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Starting Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Starting Spellbooks and Wands (click to show/hide)
Post by: OceanSoul on March 18, 2017, 08:52:34 am
Post by: Iituem on March 18, 2017, 09:05:20 am
Post by: OceanSoul on March 18, 2017, 09:18:28 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 18, 2017, 09:38:19 am
Also, taking this side.
Post by: Playergamer on March 18, 2017, 11:22:40 am
Divination will make our archers dominate the skirmish phase of battle, and Fireballs will mean that our masters can blow holes in the enemy line during main battles.
Post by: Urist Mc Dwarf on March 18, 2017, 12:09:39 pm
Conjuration allows for more options and fireballs are scary.
Post by: Iituem on March 18, 2017, 02:09:37 pm
Post by: Roboson on March 18, 2017, 03:18:45 pm
Post by: Iituem on March 18, 2017, 05:27:07 pm
In the mountains, Arstotzka has proved to be highly effective, winning nearly all of the skirmishes in the passes and even successfully taking hold of a Moskurger castle. Moskurg meanwhile has failed to gain any ground at all, as their troops have been sapped in skirmishes before this can even come to pass. Although Arstotzkan gains are not significant enough to shift the balance of power, continued victories may gain them real ground in the mountains.
The King and his thanes put this victory down in large part to the terrain; infantry, ambush tactics and small flexible groups of soldiers all do well in the mountains, and Arstotzkans are famously inured to cold weather, whereas the Moskurgers continue to freeze their toes off whilst fighting. In addition, apprentice wizards are able to put up clouds of smoke to confuse the short-ranged Moskurger archers in the passes, and frequent attacks with summoned ice wasps sap the morale of combatants trapped in the snow.
Unfortunately, even with the new web spell paralysing escaping foes, Moskurgers are still able to escape during a rout, thanks to their long-standing cavalry traditions.
In the jungle, Moskurg is mostly able to win in skirmishes against Arstotzka, particularly on the defensive where their apprentices were able to detect ambushes laid in place and encircle them with troops. In the jungles, Moskurger archers are aided by magic to hit two out of three times, twice as often as before! Whilst Moskurg and Arstotzka both traded land, with Arstotzka capturing several forts and Moskurg seizing an Arstotzkan gem mine, Moskurg has come out with a slight advantage despite their lack of territorial gains, having slaughtered many fleeing Arstotzkans with their fast sabre-armed cavalry.
During the fighting, loyal Arstotzkan warriors tell of a worrying sight; a pack of demon riders led by a robed figure who slaughter all in their path. To hear it told, no arrow can strike them and no sword has ever felled a single one of these cavaliers. They supposedly led the strike on our former gem mine.
Moskurg has had an excellent showing in the plains, where their cavalry focus has come to the fore. Without terrain to aid the Arstotzkans' ambush tactics, Moskurgers were able to win most skirmishes and bring their massive formation-based armies to bear. At the same time, the Arstotzkans fielded a very visible wizard in a well-protected contingent on the battlefield; huge balls of fire hurtled over the field when battle was joined, roasting dozens of spearmen at a time. Moskurgers still seized a major fishing town and butchered the entire local garrison, resulting in further losses for the Arstotzkans as the Moskurgers prove that they can follow up on a victory with great effect. Moskurg has not yet gained enough territory to be significant, but they are en-route to a significant gain in land on the plains next year.
The King and his thanes put this failure down in large part due to the terrain; cavalry, mobility and formation tactics all work extremely well on the plains. Ambush tactics are nullified by open terrain and Moskurger wizards scrying for nearby traps and pitfalls, although even these advantages are not enough to explain the severity of losses. Several thanes have spoken of seeing robed Moskurger wizards studying them from quite close distance before some of their most disastrous failures. Better bodyguards for your officers may help kill off these wizards before they can keep doing whatever it is they are up to.
Additionally, the King has deployed Arstotzka's finest wizard to the front here in the plains, where their efforts are single-handedly holding Moskurg back from claiming vital Arstotzkan territories, to hear them tell it. Whether or not that is true, they are a vital asset during the main battle and especially on the attack, whether in the deciding battle or roasting targets of opportunity during a skirmisher advance.
At sea, luck has favoured the Moskurger forces on the eastern coast, where they have been able to defeat several longships at sea and capture several crucial harbours, including one filled with Arstotzkan ships under repair from earlier battles - they naturally torched the lot. This represents a significant gain for Moskurg in the battle for naval supremacy in the east, although both sides agree this to be mostly down to luck.
With the losses suffered thus far across the board, the King has opted to reinforce the fighting in the jungle and plains; the Arstotzkan navy is now fighting at reduced capacity.
It is 911, the Design Phase.
Propaganda Contest: The team that provides the most inspiring (or entertaining) description of their nation's master wizard and his/her cohorts will gain a Revision Credit.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 911 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Starting Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Post by: OceanSoul on March 18, 2017, 05:34:44 pm
Post by: RAM on March 18, 2017, 08:21:27 pm
Circle of Conjure Individual+1 As I support this and follow a principal of not voting for my own stuff, but I worry that we don't know enough about selecting targets. It'll probably eat about three to five revisions to become valuable outside of ambushes.
Spell of Transference: Conveys the magical ability of an individual to another for a duration, effectively upgrading a wizard at the cost of one or more others. Look into specially training a new class of wizard to operate while being supported by others in this way, so as to prevent the spontaneous explosion of wizards who attempt to wield more magic than they are trained to. I like the idea of three apprentices = one skilled, but even if it is ten to one, the thought of 90 apprentices enhancing a single skilled channeler wizard into the equivalent of a master wizard seems pretty cool.
Spell of Embolstering: Enhances the spell of another wizard, usually increasing its area of effect, numerical production, duration, or intensity where applicable. This would allow weak wizards to enhance the performance of our elites. Fog is great at the start of a battle, but if our apprentices could then run off to support the webbing then wouldn't that be nice...
Code: (please elaborate) [Select]
In the depths of the Arstotzkan Tundra in a cabin formed more of old ice than wood, our great wizard was born. Alone in the frozen depths, the burning passion of a true Arstotzkan heart kept them warm as they were drawn to our mighty capital. Finding such a gem of Arstotzkan spirit, they were trained by our noble elites until they could bring forth their Arstotzkan pride as living flames.
Post by: Roboson on March 18, 2017, 10:14:22 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Roboson on March 19, 2017, 12:15:29 am
I propose Summon Shadow
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So, while I think making spears/lances is important someday, shadows are more useful now. But no matter what we do, we need to assign all of our thanes some sort of protection.
Post by: RAM on March 19, 2017, 01:43:45 am
All the magic proposed seems long-term stuff and spears would cover a big gap in our current arsenal.
Or we could try to mix it up with some conjured weapons. Maybe a spear-wall spell? A row of summoned spears appear embedded in the ground and last for, say, half-a-minute. They can be summoned as a surprise against cavalry or picked up and thrown by infantry. The latter would give them some utility outside of preventing charges.
Post by: Roboson on March 19, 2017, 02:30:45 am
Post by: RAM on March 19, 2017, 03:22:18 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 19, 2017, 03:33:32 am
Anyway, I don't understand how we are suffering such big losses on the plains. Our cavalry has larger and less nimble horses than the enemy, and our longbows have greater range. By all accounts, our forces should benefit, not suffer from this open terrain. We should be the ones benefitting from formation tactics allowed by the open terrain, as it allows us to deploy our heavy infantry to maximum effect. We're the ones who can bombard the enemy from afar with arrows. We're the ones who can smash our heavy cavalry in their formations.
There's no reason to try and attempt ambush tactics, as neither the terrain nor our forces are suited for that.
Anyway, my proposed action.
Design : The Stirrup
This should enormously improve the effectiveness of our cavalry. Being able to charge the enemy lines with heavy cavalry as a way to break their forces before battle relies on being able to remain on your horse, and with a long sword and heavy armor this is rather hard. With stirrups however, we can smash straight into their forces.
Now, you'll say, aren't their spears dangerous. To which I'll say, no they aren't. They're described as daggers on a stick. True anti-cavalry spears are far larger and would be unsuited for infantry fighting. It's with good reason that cavalry dominated the European battlefields for so long.
Oh, and remember :
Quote
If you have multiple spells at a price tier, wizards will pick the most suitable for their situation.
Your shadow spell would replace one of our current spells in battle, not supplement them. As such, I consider it even less useful than I thought it was.
Post by: Iituem on March 19, 2017, 04:16:25 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 19, 2017, 08:22:06 am
Let's go over the uses this spell is supposed to have.
Quote
1) Spying. They will be very hard to spot and can be used to spy on enemies movements and even on leader meetings.
Assumes the spell can be used at long range, otherwise it'll quickly kill of our wizards as they get discovered and stabbed.
Quote
2) Assasinations: If we can send a shadow or two into an enemy camp, then then can kill the enemy leaders and wizards.
Assumes the spell creates shadows that are far stronger than human. Also assumes they're stealthy.
Quote
3) Ambushes: Small groups of wizards can pilot shadows as ambushes without risking troups or being seen. Especially at night.
Assumes that the Shadows are cheap, or a spell that all our apprentices can do.
Quote
4) Combat: During the heat of combat use shadows to infiltrate the back line, killing wizards and archers.
Assumes that the shadows are cheap, stealthy and stronger than human.
Quote
5) Guards: We can utilize shadows to guard our leaders and generals (and thanes). Especially because something is going on between our thanes and enemy wizards.
Assumes that the shadows are stronger than human and cheap.
Quote
6: Theivery: We could use shadows to steal enemy spells from camps. Either by stealing notes on the spells, on simply by observing the enemies cast them.Assumes they're long range and stealthy.
I mean, this is quite clearly a severe incidence of feature overreach. You need a spell that is cheap, long ranged, stealthy ,creates stronger than human creatures.
We're not going to get that.
Post by: Playergamer on March 19, 2017, 10:02:36 am
Post by: Roboson on March 19, 2017, 10:37:02 am
The idea is that our wizards would use the spell from a distance, that shadows are as strong as a person (or strong enough to hold a dagger, which is all is really needed to assasinate enemies) and that shadows look like like actual shadows when intangible. That hardly seems like overreach.
So yeah, if the shadow can only go ten feet, then it's useless, but so is any spell that can only go a short range. If that was an issue then we couldn't research things like magic missile. A ten foot magic missile range is not as strong as a 100 foot magic missile range.
And if shadows aren't stealthy or able to be used for combat, then it's usefulness is also decreased, but again, we take similar risks with any spell. To use the magic missile as an example again: its components are range and damage. If it lost one of those, it would be a bad spell. Shadows components are range, damage, and stealth. So sure, it's more complex than a basic spell, but you're blowing it way way way out of proportion here. It doesn't even need to be a low level spell, it could be a mid level spell and still be useful as it would only take one shadow to sneak into an enemy camp with a dagger, kill their leaders and wizards in their sleep, grab the enemy spellbook, and return home.
The same effect could be achieved with a spell of stealth or invisibility.
Our issue on the plains seems to be manuverability. According to the OP, our army is a loose collection of bands of fighters with low mobility. The enemy has highly mobile troops and Calvary, as well as better formations. So we're at a severe disadvantage there.
But I'm not sure we don't already have stirrups. We couldn't really have Calvary without them as they're an integral part of horse riding. And if they haven't been invented yet, we should be knocking enemies off their horses left and right (which isn't the case). But if the case is that stirrups haven't been invented in this universe, then sure, that's a pretty useful invention.
Of all the ideas discussed here, perhaps RAMs summon spear wall would be the most useful. Or even a variation on that that's just a straightforward summon magic lance which is basically the same thing, but probably easier to use and more flexible (a good wizard can summon a spear wall to stop a charge, verses several weak wizards conjuring lances to stop charges and skewer enemies in open combat too). Having a straightforward "Kill the Bad Guys" kind of spell like that wouldn't hurt. Even if it's close range, it should be fairly devastating against their lightly armored men and horses.
So I guess I'm changing my vote again: Magic lance spell, final answer.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on March 19, 2017, 11:54:10 am
but I have a question on the conjure person spell, couldn't we set it up so that we could summon and send out messengers from our armies and fortication pratical instantly? That could be increbiably useful later on.
Post by: Playergamer on March 19, 2017, 11:58:00 am
Post by: Roboson on March 19, 2017, 01:21:03 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 19, 2017, 01:27:56 pm
Yikes, that sure is a long and aggressive post.
The idea is that our wizards would use the spell from a distance, that shadows are as strong as a person (or strong enough to hold a dagger, which is all is really needed to assasinate enemies) and that shadows look like like actual shadows when intangible. That hardly seems like overreach.
So yeah, if the shadow can only go ten feet, then it's useless, but so is any spell that can only go a short range. If that was an issue then we couldn't research things like magic missile. A ten foot magic missile range is not as strong as a 100 foot magic missile range.
And if shadows aren't stealthy or able to be used for combat, then it's usefulness is also decreased, but again, we take similar risks with any spell. To use the magic missile as an example again: its components are range and damage. If it lost one of those, it would be a bad spell. Shadows components are range, damage, and stealth. So sure, it's more complex than a basic spell, but you're blowing it way way way out of proportion here. It doesn't even need to be a low level spell, it could be a mid level spell and still be useful as it would only take one shadow to sneak into an enemy camp with a dagger, kill their leaders and wizards in their sleep, grab the enemy spellbook, and return home.
The same effect could be achieved with a spell of stealth or invisibility.
Your shadow spell does more than range, damage and stealth. It's also invincibility and intangibility.
To stay with your magic missile example. Magic missile does one thing (blowing stuff up) and does it well. Your shadow spell is supposed to do everything :
- It's supposed to boost spying
- It's supposed to boost recon
- It's supposed to boost reinforce our combat lines
- It's supposed to outflank enemies
- It's supposed to protect wizards and commanders
- It's supposed to attack the enemy wizards and commanders
The only thing it doesn't do is kill retreating enemies. Your opinion of the strength of magic is way too great. Remember how little the wasps and webs did.
Post by: Roboson on March 19, 2017, 01:52:07 pm
As for my opinion of magic, I think it's more likely the enemy has some sort of defensive magic than our magic is particularly weak. They're able to find our traps more easily, and it stated in the update that our losses cannot be explained by the apparent circumstances. Which means magic. It also likely has something to do with the enemy wizards trying to get close to our leaders.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 19, 2017, 02:15:07 pm
Quote
And so it continues. You're beating a dead horse at this point. Shadows are off the table.
Just ensuring they stay off the table.
Quote
As for my opinion of magic, I think it's more likely the enemy has some sort of defensive magic than our magic is particularly weak.
They got the divination spellbook and what is either the Wand of Vampirism or the Wand of heroism.
Neither includes any protection against wasps and webs, which were tge examples I brought up.
Quote
Divination Spellbook
Detect Ambush: Reveals non-magical ambushes prepared by enemy troops or physical traps.
Lucky Strike: Magical guidance makes a squad shoot or strike true far more often than usual. Expensive.
Detect Thoughts: Read the mind of an enemy commander to determine their tactics ahead of time. Very Expensive.
Post by: Roboson on March 19, 2017, 02:27:23 pm
QuoteAnd so it continues. You're beating a dead horse at this point. Shadows are off the table.
Just ensuring they stay off the table.
Just overly rude.
They got the divination spellbook and what is either the Wand of Vampirism or the Wand of heroism.
Neither includes any protection against wasps and webs, which were tge examples I brought up.QuoteDivination Spellbook
Detect Ambush: Reveals non-magical ambushes prepared by enemy troops or physical traps.
Lucky Strike: Magical guidance makes a squad shoot or strike true far more often than usual. Expensive.
Detect Thoughts: Read the mind of an enemy commander to determine their tactics ahead of time. Very Expensive.
Yeah except how that's OOC knowledge. Our wizards, who never read the enemy textbook, wouldn't have any idea of it's contents. To use that information would be metagaming.
Post by: Iituem on March 19, 2017, 02:43:23 pm
Edit: Regarding overambitious efforts; if you want to try for something really powerful or complex, you can try. You just might not get it in a single turn, since I apply complexity penalties to rolls. If it's flat out impossible, you will find that out as a course of your research.
Edit 2: Also, do be gentlemanly (or ladylike) with one another. You are, after all, on the same team. Disputes can be had without aggravation.
Post by: RAM on March 19, 2017, 03:53:27 pm
Post by: Iituem on March 19, 2017, 04:10:49 pm
The only problem is that you currently are unable to summon any lance wider than one quarter of an inch in diameter. In its current form it has little practical use in a mounted charge, as even with its strength it will still snap on impact with such a slender cross-section, although some other use could be conceivable.
It is now the Revision Phase.
Post by: OceanSoul on March 19, 2017, 04:17:19 pm
If two people really really can't get along, can we construct a large catapult and launch one of them at random into the enemy camp?That gives me an idea...living ammunition. An enchantment that gives arrows enough consciousness to twist and turn mid-flight to aim themselves, or for rounded stone boulders to roll and crush the enemy from within. What weapon is effective against a stone? Only a powerful crushing force. And if we make it well enough, the stone boulders could gather up into a stone golem that damages the enemy from behind their front lines, taking the attention of some of their forces so that we can pierce their lines quicker?
And as for the reading-out-generals-minds thing, it's a simple, non-magic solution; change who are generals are, disguise our generals as common folk, and give different fake generals of ours commands that they will execute when we give them the right signal...each different fake strategy having a different signal, that we will never give them. No general would know the strategy or signal of a different general, until it's noticeably occurring for the enemy at soonest. We would just need to be able to give the right general the right signal quick enough to shrink the window for potential mindreadings.
Post by: Roboson on March 19, 2017, 04:49:49 pm
Right now it seems to me that we have invented magic arrows. If we can use them as arrows in their current form (Would that work Iituem, or will they need to be fletched and all that?), as well as revise the spell to create lances, then we're going to be golden during the next fighting phase.
Edit: Now, in the case we want to stick with magic arrows (and they can be used as arrows without revision), I have a revision for our wasps to propose.
We revise our wasp's venom to contain chemicals which ignite when exposed to air (there are several that occur naturally and we have the wand of fire, so figuring this out would be hard, but not impossible. But if the venom combusts when exposed to air (when the wasp removes its stinger) then it will cause some serious burns to enemies. Furthermore, it may set enemy camps and other things on fire. Plus they can't swat at the wasps (because if they squished them the venom contained in the wasp will all be exposed at once, causing a larger flame). This, besides being horrifying (and painful) to the enemy troups, will be especially useful if we can use our wasps to attack their sailing ships. If our wasps can set their sails (and then their ships) on fire, then we will rule the seas.
So, formal proposal, wasp revision: Fire Wasps
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on March 19, 2017, 05:10:08 pm
Well for later of course, otherwise Decoy general's it is.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 19, 2017, 05:35:49 pm
The spear wall is absolutely useless. We get to summon 1 spear per 5 squads per battle, and they can't even be used in battle without breaking immediatly. That's not going to do much, is it. Using them as arrows might work, but the complexity still means you get to fire just 1 arrow per battle.
The decoy generals, while a nice idea, has the obvious issue that all generals must know from whom the real signal will come. Hence, with 2 mind readings they'll get it done where earlier they'd need 1, which isn't much of an improvement.
Revision : Fire Wasps.
Post by: Iituem on March 19, 2017, 05:50:47 pm
Right now it seems to me that we have invented magic arrows. If we can use them as arrows in their current form (Would that work Iituem, or will they need to be fletched and all that?), as well as revise the spell to create lances, then we're going to be golden during the next fighting phase.
You can spend a revision on trying to refit them as magic arrows, as currently the spell only summons shafts; since each shaft only exists for an hour, fletching them by hand would be impractical. You would need to add fletching-like fins as part of the spell. It would also give you an opportunity to rebalance them for missile combat.
If you do not, the men in the field may try to do this anyway, but at a significant disadvantage. A shaft does not an arrow make.
If you can devise a use for them that doesn't require refitting them or changing their shape, you can suggest it to the King and his thanes and they may implement it. The spell was aimed to provide enough lances for a squad of chargers, so these can be produced several at a time (but again, if you want to use them as arrows, spend a revision on it).
Post by: OceanSoul on March 19, 2017, 06:02:03 pm
...Or is this too complicated?
Post by: Playergamer on March 19, 2017, 06:43:22 pm
Post by: OceanSoul on March 19, 2017, 06:51:32 pm
Post by: RAM on March 19, 2017, 06:58:42 pm
Revision: spider webs. Lighter webs that hold large spiders, capable of confusing/startling/disabling a horse through poison and really like going for the eyes. If you are first to charge through the webs, then you get covered in spiders and die. They would be less effective at gumming up a squad, but perform better as barriers against retreat or advancement.
But maybe that is too much for a revision, it seems like a simple combination of webs and swarms with the webs having a natural affinity for spiders, but it is adding a new element to an existing spell...
These lances are, presumably, about 2-3 metres long(as far as I can tell, 3 metres is short for a "lance".), and a quarter inch is, what, almost a centimetre? That seems on the large side for an arrow. I doubt we will be launching them without a revision of the spell or the bows. I guess it might be possible if the lances can be broken, but they are like steel...
For now we should at least tell folk to use the current spell as cavalry javelins and spear walls. They may not have the strength to stop a horse's charge, but they ought to discourage one, and reduce the change of the horse being effective after its charge.
Post by: Roboson on March 19, 2017, 07:17:18 pm
Here is (the first draft of) my official recommendation to the king and thanes:
1) We keep the magic lance spell as it is for now. We train some or all of our infantrymen in javelin throwing (the number here is determined by how many javelins can be made by each wizard).
2) We revise wasps so they can set things (enemy soldiers, horses, sails, and camps) on fire.
Spoiler: How the Fire Sting Should Work (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: How I Think Fake Generals Should Work (click to show/hide)
Post by: OceanSoul on March 19, 2017, 07:24:27 pm
Post by: Roboson on March 19, 2017, 08:18:17 pm
Before magic was discovered, Master Wizard Myark was an average soldier in our army. They were just like every other soldier fighting in this war. He had been on the front lines, and has caught and bled for this great country. Like every man, he was feirce and true patriot who would give his life to keep the Moskurg invaders out of our ancestral lands. When magic was discovered, he discovered he had a great affinity for it and began training with our nations wizards. Now he's returned to the frontline to fight with his compatriots once again. He is a devastating force, single handedly keeping the enemy from taking our fields and farms out in the plains. Rumors of his power and humility are rampant among the men. They say he plucks the sun from the sky and hurls at the enemies. They say he can burn entire armies with a single blow. They say that after his Great Stand of 910, fire wasps came from across the world to join our army because they think he's their king. Similar grandois tales are widespread, and entertain and inspire the men. Those that have met him on the front lines attest to his character, and to the wild stories surrounding him. Truly he is an Arstotzkan hero.
Post by: Iituem on March 19, 2017, 09:06:53 pm
The resulting wasps are no easier to summon, so they have limited use in main battle, and the fire beetle gland does not do any more physical damage than the ice wasp sting did, but the sticky burning substance works wonders against the cloth sails of the Moskurger sailships (though its fires are not hot enough to burn down ships as a whole). Stationing a few wizards on longships at sea greatly assists in offensive manoeuvres, where burning out their sails reduces their favoured ability to run away.
Decoy Generals: [Disadvantage: 1] Your attempts to disguise generals as common soldiers and thanes as carls is an utter disaster. Nobody is sure who is taking orders from whom, several orders are completely mis-relayed and the whole affair backfires horribly. For the next turn only, skirmishes in the [1]Jungle suffer a morale penalty.
Magic Javelins: [Disadvantage: 1+1] Although your wizards are able to conjure crystal javelins before a battle, they have spent little to no time balancing these new weapons, and they can only be used for an hour, so they typically have to be summoned right before a battle. Worse still, they can only be summoned in limited number (as they are still working off a spell base designed to conjure enough re-usable lances for a squad of chargers) and so relatively few of your front line infantry can be equipped with them. Many disappear before battle can be joined, especially during skirmishes, and those thrown do not make a significant difference to combat. A few troops do take up their use, as they are simple to wield, but not enough to make a strategic difference.
Stand by for Combat Phase.
Post by: OceanSoul on March 19, 2017, 09:13:12 pm
Post by: Iituem on March 19, 2017, 11:20:09 pm
In the mountains, the balance of power shifts. Moskurg has moved additional troops into the mountains to try and gain back their castle, but they fail spectacularly to even get to the battlefield, losing skirmish after skirmish to Arstotzkan traps, many of which are concealed behind rolling clouds of fog. Arstotzka in turn has failed to win out on most of its return skirmishes with Moskurg, because although the mountains are astoundingly defensible, this goes both ways. Nevertheless, Arstotzkan forces were able to push back Moskurgers around their newly captured castle and have been building outer walls and watchtowers in place to hold their new territory. Once again, terrain has proved the key factor in victory.
Arstotzka has gained significant territory in the mountains.
In the jungles, fighting is as bitter as ever. Moskurger raiders have the clear advantage in the thick jungle, despite the skill of proud Arstotzkan longbowmen who are nevertheless not best suited to ambush tactics. Magical concealment in the form of rolling clouds of steam help somewhat, but Moskurger raiders are seemingly always able to tell which clouds contain real troops and which are decoys, raining arrows down upon them. Although the two armies are evenly matched when it comes to actual battle, only half of the Arstotzkan troops ever manage to reach the battlefield, a cruel mirror of their own victories in the higlands. Moskurg slowly begins to make some territorial gains, but their real victory comes in the butchering of thousands of brave Arstotzkan souls.
The jungles are far too hot for our people, to say nothing of the sudden drops, the rope traps, the perfect ambush ground that Moskurger troops are light and plentiful enough to truly take advantage of. Worse still is the confusion resulting from our attempts to guard the thanes by dressing them in common clothes and allowing commoners to pretend to command in their place. Commands have been confused, authority is being questioned, commoners are taking it upon themselves to make tactical decisions with no idea of the overarching strategy, and nowhere has this been worse than in the confusing mess that is the jungle. We seem to continue to walk into traps at every turn, no matter what we try to do, and now the figures stalking us have begun to mutter mad syllables in some strange arcane tongue whenever we catch sight of them.
The greatest problem we face in the jungle is that of the so-called Black Phantasms; a score of elite Moskurger horsemen all garbed in black cloth and the finest scale mail their inferior armourers can produce. They have swept through our positions, time and time again, and when our ragged forces finally meet theirs the Phantasms are always leading the charge against us. Worst is their leader, al-Mutriqa, the Hammer. Unlike the rest of his band, the Hammer wears bright gold, red and purple silks upon burnished scales, and he fights with religious zeal. In one hand he wields a golden mace, which thanes have attested can break through even well-wrought chain, and in the other he bears what appears to be the Moskurger's recovered wand, a white rod which seems to glow with the light of the sun. Our brave soldiers are not dismayed by his sight, but it seems that al-Mutriqa's enchantments give great inspiration to his followers. Worst of all, the madman screams poetic quatrains to the skies whilst he is killing our men!
Fighting in the plains has been even more brutal than in the jungle. Armies clash with common frequency, and with no clear advantage in raids and skirmishes armies are meeting one another more or less intact. Arstotzka successfully took a major town in the plains early in the summer, only to lose it again in autumn. Territory is changing hands with alarming speed, but there have been no real gains. There have, however, been losses on both sides, with Moskurger cavalry chasing down fleeing Arstotzkans and Arstotzkan mages entangling fleeing Moskurgers in what appear to be massive spiderwebs, spun out of thin air, that hold their targets in place long enough for the infantry to come take hostages or execute the losers. Although both sides have lost a number of troops, the Arstotzkans have come out of the exchange worse for wear.
Truthfully, we are showing a poor footing in the plains, where our lack of defensive terrain is causing us harm. Our thanes and carls fight their hardest, but one man makes the difference; Master Wizard Myark, a man of common stock who prefers to fight amongst the carls, rather than fighting as a thane and leader. A simple man, Myark marches amongst his fellows, seeming to be any other carl until he raises our rightful inheritance, our wand; a short staff of seemingly blackened wood, set with gleaming bronze runes. Our enemies flee at the sight of Myark and his staff, for soon after they are burnt and laid low before him. Myark would not consider himself so high, but right now he is standing between the Moskurgers and their vicious victory.
At sea, the tides have turned, at least in the western sea. Admist the vicious sea battles between longship and sailboat, sailboats have been attacked by swarms of biting, stinging insects, which would not be such a problem were it for the fact that their stings seem to burn away the cloth of sails! Both Moskurg and Arstotzka lose ships as fighting intensifies, but with the aid of their blazing wasps, the Arstotzkans are gaining command of the jungle coast.
With losses continuing to pile up, the King has elected to reinforce the flagging plains first and foremost.
It is 912, the Design Phase.
Propaganda Contest: Moskurg has received the Revision Credit this turn, due to their entertaining propaganda description of al-Mutriqa.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 911 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Huh? WHY do we have disadvantage on those rolls? On the bright side, our enemy should also get confused by our directions.
Because they are bonus rolls, not true revision actions. Instead of spending your time and energy making them work, you pretty much handed them off to other people and said "Good luck!".
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 20, 2017, 12:53:57 am
Crystal caltrops : Much smaller, caltrop shapedcrystals. Shattering is beneficial here, as it'll allow the caltrops to pierce into the enemies fkesh
Hollow wooden lance : Basically, a wooden reinforcement to keep our crystal from shattering.
Frigid Mist : Like regular mist, but colder.
Anyway, we should win at sea next turn considering we were weakened due to losses last turn.
Post by: RAM on March 20, 2017, 01:05:57 am
We use our newly discovered magical materials to construct a material magic from magic materials. Summon the arrow, launch it, and shortly afterwards it casts a spell to summon whatever is in the designated location to the open space of sufficient size that is nearest to itself. It may take a couple of actions because it is a compound spell, but we could get something that can summon squads into surrounding positions, Burning barrels of flammable oil amidst formations, cavalry near to hostile infiltrators...
Post by: Roboson on March 20, 2017, 01:20:05 am
Another option is to fix the magic lance spell, so that its actually useful in combat. We can use this phase to finish that off, and that may give us an advantage in open combat.
Here are the big issues as I see them:
1) They have good Calvary, and we need something to stop them.
2) They can always know where we are and where our traps are, but we don't know where they are or where their traps are. And the mist spell does little to help here.
We have to fix these or we will continue to lose.
For now I propose we look into an anti-detection spell. Not stealth or anything like that, just a spell that can hide our traps and soldiers from their detection spell (which even though its their cheapest, seems to be pretty strong).
At some point or another, we're going to have to research something like this, the enemy has radar and we don't. We can't win if they always know our movements and we never know theirs.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 20, 2017, 02:46:39 am
That is what the summon mist is. It just happens not to work that well. I expect only marginal improvement from fixing it, however. I mean, I assume it's not completely useless.
Also, anti-detection doesn't fit with conjuration and will thus have penalties to research.
Post by: Roboson on March 20, 2017, 02:52:38 am
We have a hiding spell.
That is what the summon mist is. It just happens not to work that well. I expect only marginal improvement, to be honest.
Also, true hiding doesn't fut with conjurstion and will thus have penalties.
Summon mist obscures us from vision, but they can still detect where we are via magic. I proposed a spell to hide us from magical detection, not physical detection.
For now I propose we look into an anti-detection spell. Not stealth or anything like that, just a spell that can hide our traps and soldiers from their detection spell (which even though its their cheapest, seems to be pretty strong).
At some point or another, we're going to have to research something like this, the enemy has radar and we don't. We can't win if they always know our movements and we never know theirs.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 20, 2017, 02:55:12 am
Anyway, their spell really shouldn't be radar. It shouldn't tell them all our movements. It's supposed to detect ambushes and traps, nothing more. If it does anything else it is really overpowered.
But yeah, I suppose you're right. From the descriptions, it really seems that the Moskurgian spells allow them to simply ignore the effects of ours.
Post by: Roboson on March 20, 2017, 03:02:52 am
Magical concealment in the form of rolling clouds of steam help somewhat, but Moskurger raiders are seemingly always able to tell which clouds contain real troops and which are decoys, raining arrows down upon them. Although the two armies are evenly matched when it comes to actual battle, only half of the Arstotzkan troops ever manage to reach the battlefield...
The jungles are far too hot for our people, to say nothing of the sudden drops, the rope traps, the perfect ambush ground that Moskurger troops are light and plentiful enough to truly take advantage of. We seem to continue to walk into traps at every turn, no matter what we try to do
They know which clouds of steam contain troops and which dont, and are able to decimate our armies long before we can get to a fight. If its not radar, then its as good as radar. It works on troops and traps alike, and unless we get anti-detection started, we will continue to get murdered before fights even begin.
But yeah, I suppose you're right. From the descriptions, it really seems that the Moskurgian spells allow them to simply ignore the effects of ours.
Yes, that's exactly what it feels like.
Post by: Roboson on March 20, 2017, 03:05:57 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 20, 2017, 03:18:16 am
On a side note, don't forget that they're also reading the mind of our commanders, and doing something with them somehow.
Alternative ideas
Living mist : A variant of the normal mist cloud, but magically granted sentience. No more intelligent than a puppy, it is completely useless, but it's living presence should prevent the enemies diviners from being able to discern which clouds hold troops and which do not. It's extremely energetic mind should give any mind reader a serious headache.
Maddening Wasp : A variant of the wasps that has been enhanced with the venom of certain toads found in the Jungle. If stuck, the enemy diviners or troops will become mad and delusional, seeing enemies behind every corner.
Oh, and one extra
Cutting webs : A spider web strategically reinforced with crystal spears. The webs hold tge spears together, preventing tgdm from shattering. The spears impale those who fall upon them and reinforce the web.
On a side note, why did the Moskurgians get a starting terrain advantage in both the Jungle and the Plains. Isn't the start supposed to be balanced?
Post by: Roboson on March 20, 2017, 03:40:33 am
Right now we cant have any strategy, because they'll know what it is (and can probably avoid it with their divination magic). Unless we do something to counter this all-knowing set of powers they have, our plans and advances really won't matter.
If you can find a conjuration explanation for a way to turn off their super radar, I'll vote for it in a heartbeat.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 20, 2017, 04:15:26 am
On a side note :
Quote
Magical concealment in the form of rolling clouds of steam help somewhat, but Moskurger raiders are seemingly always able to tell which clouds contain real troops and which are decoys, raining arrows down upon them
The enemy appears to have updated their detection spell. Apparently they can detect magical concealment as well, rather than only normal concealment. As such, I think it may be better to try and kill their mages rather than try and overpower their spells.
Post by: RAM on March 20, 2017, 04:20:19 am
As for the aiming spell? Better shields? Again, summoning arrows could close distance more quickly and disrupt archers... Or we could conjure expendable or resistant soldiers...
For the commanders? Tinfoil hats? Conjured tinfoil hats for extra magic joojoo? Summoning arrows to quickly engage their infiltrators?
Their death squad? Numbers... Summoning arrows again, drop 50 squads right on top of their hero, in addition to whatever they were already engaging.
Or we could conjure something that scares horses?
Something that improves our mobility would be very nice.
Or something that summons expendable soldiers to act as distractions and retardants...
Post by: Iituem on March 20, 2017, 04:57:05 am
On a side note, why did the Moskurgians get a starting terrain advantage in both the Jungle and the Plains. Isn't the start supposed to be balanced?
Because you have a starting terrain advantage in both the Mountains and the Jungle. Your troops are exceedingly good at defence, as implied in your officer descriptions, helping them across all territories, and the jungle bonuses cut both ways (both sides have bonuses here). Moskurg has a slight advantage in the Jungle because it is a hot territory, but you get the same advantage in the mountains for being cold, which stacks excessively with your other advantages of cold and close-quarters combat.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 20, 2017, 05:37:21 am
Well a conjured hide could work for ambushes. If you are standing behind something magical then their spell should not work on account of it being a magical ambush.
They saw through our magical mist in the jungle, so that approach will not work.
As for the rest, I'd suggest toning down your expectations. Summoning a few spears is already complex. Dumping 50 squads on the enemy is not going to happen.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on March 20, 2017, 11:34:22 am
Edit: thinking about it we could use the energy that the lance uses to exist so they spew fire for 10 minutes instead of 30.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 20, 2017, 11:39:33 am
Trying to do that would likely create a rather useless spear that is also a cigarette lighter.
Remember, we had a succesfull roll on our bees, and we had a tiny bit of fire that maybe burns down sails. Not an inferno.
On a side not
Quote
Magic Lance: Conjures a set of lances for a cavalry squad. Currently useless in their intended role due to fragile cross-section. Expensive
This seems both much cheaper and more effective than I originally assumed based on the description.
Post by: Roboson on March 20, 2017, 01:38:00 pm
On a side notQuoteMagic Lance: Conjures a set of lances for a cavalry squad. Currently useless in their intended role due to fragile cross-section. Expensive
This seems both much cheaper and more effective than I originally assumed based on the description.
Ok, so the magic lances are a real problem and are currently unusable. I always imagined them being used like pikes to counter enemy Calvary, not to be equipped by our Calvary. But it seems that's what we've got. So, if we don't want to try and counter their tactical advantage, why don't we just increase our combat potential and capitalize on our strengths.
Our units are especially good at defense, and when it comes to one on one combat, our men are better fighters. But the enemy has the numbers and speed advantage. Our webs help with slowing them down, and our wasps hurt morale. Our mist does basically nothing at this point.
So, with all that in mind, why don't we just make normal pikes and train some of our infantry to be pikemen? It doesn't matter how good their charge is or their formation is, nothing can make it through four or five rows of 18 foot pikes. They're cheap (mostly made out of wood, only the pointy end is metal). They can be used offensively to break enemy formations and skewer riders (both as part of a charge or in an infantry formation). They can be used defensively to keep enemies back and hold a formation too. Plus, if we ever get magic lances working, we can just trade out the mundane pikes for magic ones (and our soldiers will already be trained in their use).
Thoughts on 18ft mundane pikes?
Post by: Iituem on March 20, 2017, 01:39:02 pm
Remember, we had a succesfull roll on our bees, and we had a tiny bit of fire that maybe burns down sails. Not an inferno.
Your mages currently have experiencing summoning objects and creatures, not instilling elemental forces into what you create. You didn't crit succeed, so fire-spitting wasps sadly weren't an option. The more different types of magic you have, the more easily you can create effects; fire-spitting wasps would be easier if you had knowledge of fire spells (note that neither team has as of yet reverse engineered their wands, so you don't have knowledge of the fireball spell, just an item capable of doing it).
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 20, 2017, 02:19:23 pm
Design : Reverse Engineer Fireball wand. Aim to preserve range compromising on damage instead if needed.
Post by: Roboson on March 20, 2017, 03:00:10 pm
Mundane Pikes (~16ft, made of wood, metal tips): One vote
Summoning Arrow (shoots an arrow and something teleports to it somehow): One vote
Reverse Engineer Wand: (See if we can make more, or learn how to cast fireball): One vote
Other Proposals:
Living Mist
Anti-detection spell
Maddening Wasps
Cutting webs
Crystal caltrops
Frigid Mist
For my pikemen idea, this is how I would set up our front line: A row of infantrymen with shields in the front, followed by several rows of staggered pikemen, then our main force of fighters, and archers/wizards in the rear. It would look something like this:
(https://68.media.tumblr.com/dbf6da0b268f41ed755ade335aa18ea6/tumblr_on4saalX0s1qf0ysco1_540.png)
Spoiler: Image Legend (click to show/hide)
If we set up our front line like this, it would make it impossible for enemies to assult us head on and the sheildbearers will help reduce the effects of archers (against our pikemen at least). I think it will be very useful in the narrow passages of the mountains and jungle. Especially if we used archers and infantry to cover our flanks. Calvary and infantry will be unable to even get to our sheildmen because they'd be protected by the pikes sticking out in front of them too.
Post by: Iituem on March 20, 2017, 07:43:45 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on March 20, 2017, 07:49:35 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 20, 2017, 07:54:05 pm
~~~
+1 Mundane Pikes.
Post by: Iituem on March 20, 2017, 07:57:42 pm
Post by: Roboson on March 20, 2017, 08:06:46 pm
Post by: OceanSoul on March 20, 2017, 08:15:06 pm
Post by: Iituem on March 20, 2017, 08:33:58 pm
[As the spell is presently A National Effort and Myark's wand does the same without side-effects, Myark will continue using the wand. You do however now have the spell.]
It is now the Revision Phase.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 20, 2017, 08:54:05 pm
Post by: Roboson on March 20, 2017, 09:13:34 pm
How about revise the Fireball Spell into Minor Fireball? We sacrifice some of the power to make it simpler (and less detrimental to soldiers near the caster).
Or we can make use our revision to revist the Magic Caltraps idea? That would certainly help in our zone control.
Post by: OceanSoul on March 20, 2017, 09:26:14 pm
I would also like to note that our enemy is based in the desert. On one hand, they are used to the head, but on the other, they would really feel it if we made it that much hotter...when/if we bring the battle to them.
Post by: RAM on March 20, 2017, 09:29:42 pm
Post by: Roboson on March 20, 2017, 09:31:51 pm
EDIT: If anything, it will really help us against the enemy ships if we can get small fireballs useable by all mages.
Post by: Playergamer on March 20, 2017, 09:45:49 pm
like, maybe firesoftball.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 20, 2017, 09:58:46 pm
Lesser Fireball: Scaling down the fireball spell to create something our lesser wizards can use... when the main issue is waste heat and danger to those around the caster. While this is useful, and I'll go for it if my other plans don't get support, I do have some other ideas.
Caltrops: Eh. But fireballs are so much better at destroying enemy morale. Unless you want to make them cursed caltrops or something?
~~~
Various fireball ideas:
Bombarda Infernia Maxima: I see now what we could use this fireball for. Rather than firing several fireballs, the spell will be used to generate a single massive fireball, the excess heat also going into making the fireball more and more powerful. Once complete, the fireball will either...
emphasis on Bombarda: Be fired at enemy armies or what have you as a weapon of mass destruction. This variant will emphasize explosive power, using the excess heat to burn at even higher temperatures.
emphasis on Infernia: Be used as area denial. This variant will emphasize duration, using the excess heat to burn longer.
emphasis on Maxima: (my personal favorite) Be used as an extremely long-ranged attack on Moskurg itself. This variant will emphasize range, using the excess heat as propulsion.
I would suggest a mirage variant, but don't the enemy have magical sensing?
Post by: Roboson on March 20, 2017, 10:51:38 pm
If it wasn't clear, my vote is for minor fireball
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 21, 2017, 12:38:29 am
And, as a non-design decision :
Organize several of our best longbowmen into an elite group, whose task it'll be to take out as many enemy wizards as they can. Considering those guys keep trying to infiltrate our camps, that should be easy.
Post by: Roboson on March 21, 2017, 01:25:15 am
Organize several of our best longbowmen into an elite group, whose task it'll be to take out as many enemy wizards as they can. Considering those guys keep trying to infiltrate our camps, that should be easy.+1. We should also have guards on our thanes/commanders/whoever knows the plan with the purpose of killing mind readers. And alert the foot soldiers to this issue if we haven't already. Everyone needs to be on this.
Ok, I have a question here. We gained a bunch of prisoners last round, can we interigate them until they spill the beans on the enemy's research/plans? If they're wizards, can we persuade them to teach us their spells?
Post by: Iituem on March 21, 2017, 02:04:20 pm
Minor Fireball: [6+1] Rather than trying to conjure the full fire-and-explode fireball from before, you remove the last step to create a weaker fireball which only incinerates half a dozen men instead of fifty. The upside is that the new fireball is extremely efficient; it takes very little time to cast and most skilled wizards can reliably produce them; even apprentices can pull off one or two in a fight. Expensive.
Longbow Guard: [Disadvantage: 1] You try and arrange for the best longbowmen to guard your thanes, but without spending the time to dedicate a formal set of bodyguards (time you are spending conjuring fire) you leave it up to the thanes to gather the men. It has... poor results. Some fists fly, there are some insults, and by and large the thanes end up with the same bodyguards as before, who are mostly their drinking buddies. You might want to actually dedicate time to formally creating a bodyguard.
Combat Phase later tonight.
Post by: Roboson on March 21, 2017, 02:28:53 pm
Occasionally (I'm looking at you, Arstotzka) I've had players vote to try sending an Order in addition to revisions, where they suggest a use for an item without spending the testing time of a revision phase or making any changes to it. These get rolled at Disadvantage (roll twice, pick the lowest), since you guys aren't doing it yourself, and don't have a great success rate. But sometimes it makes sense.
Clarification question here: Where is the line drawn here? Like the longbow guardsmen, is the problem that we tried to make some bowmen elites (which implies training) or is the problem that we tried to move resources around? Like if we wanted to just assign regular longbow men or random soldiers from the general army to be guardsmen, would that also roll at a disadvantage?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 21, 2017, 04:08:14 pm
But, as you can see, as long as we don't give too many or complex orders it doesn't actually fail spectacularly.
Edit : Anyway, this should go great. Our fireball spell can kill 6 people at a time, whereas our old spell could kill 50. Given that our old spell could kill entire squads, this makes me assume that a squad is 50 people. We have about 1 wizard per 5 squads. Given that each wizard can cast at least 2 fireball spells, that means we can expect this spell to straight up obliterate 5 % of the enemy forces.
And that is ignoring our wizards and masters.
I expect to win big in the sea, continue winning in the mountains, and hold in the plains and jungle.
Edit 2: Presuming the enemy did not accomplish anything usefull, which being Moskurgians, they didn't.
Post by: Iituem on March 21, 2017, 07:34:36 pm
In the mountains, Arstotzka is ruling supreme. Whilst neither side are capable of actually getting to a battle with their full forces, due to the brutal ambush tactics employed by both sides, Arstotzka proves that it does not need to. When a handful of troops reach the last held Moskurger castle in the mountains, the defenders think themselves ready to fend off their weakened foe, only for a dozen of their mages to hurl balls of fire at the defenders, scattering and burning them, allowing them to press forward with their infantry. Under the devastating offensive power of fireballs, the castle is taken, and efforts by the beleaguered Moskurger forces are in vain against a castle now held in the mountains by Arstotzkan forces. Worse still for the Moskurgers, the inhabitants of the castle are forced into surrender and captured or butchered, costing them nearly all their troops in the mountains.
Arstotzka now holds the mountains. If they can maintain this hold, they will gain possession.
A brilliant success from our glorious new pyromancers! Although they are far less effective in a defensive position, their lesser fireballs are excellent at blasting through defensive fortifications. A feast has been held in celebration, now that we have taken the last of our ancestral forts back from the Moskurger scum!
In the jungles, advantage has shifted decidedly to Moskurg. As clouds of rolling smoke move to conceal the position of Arstotzkan skirmishers, a strange and terrible noise fills the jungle, like the blaring of a poorly tuned horn or - flatulence. Roars of terrible flatulence fill the jungle as strong foetid gusts of wind blow the clouds of smoke away, revealing terrified and exposed Arstotzkans. Only a handful of skirmishes go the Arstotzkan way, and even with their new pyromancers their ability to fight back when so many troops are dead is limited. Moskurg seizes several jungle villages and have fortified their position, capturing local defenders.
Moskurg has gained territory in the jungle.
The Moskurger scum have devised a spell to blow away our fog clouds, removing the shielding. Even though we should be all rights have a better force, their whittling of our numbers keeps giving them a worthless advantage even with our soldiers' bravery. Worst still, we have a disturbing report from Thane Osric, who informed us that he deliberately deviated from our intended battle plan at the last moment, having told nobody of his plans. The enemy somehow knew exactly what he was planning and were able to surround him with five squads; he alone escaped. It is as if they were reading his mind.
Fighting in the plains has ground down to a stalemate. Fire rains down on the battlefield whilst careful formations encircle and break up the army. Even with more pyromancers in the Arstotzkan line and the dissolution of Arstotzkan cloud cover, neither side is able to gain any territory, but neither are significant troops lost.
At sea, despite the advantages of pyromancers flinging fireballs and fire wasps, luck favours Moskurg for now. Neither side are able to make coastal gains.
The King has chosen to reinforce the jungle, now that we actually aren't losing more troops than we're recruiting, for once.
An exiled princess from Europe has arrived on the shores of Forenia, along with an armed retinue to secure her independence. She has been invited to and attended the courts of both Kings, and attracted by her great beauty and great wealth, both have made marriage overtures to her to persuade her to gain her hand in marriage.
Expense Credit: The side that produces a more persuasive gift, ode or other means of enticement for the exiled princess to marry their monarch will gain an expense credit the following turn.
It is 913, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 912 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Post by: OceanSoul on March 21, 2017, 07:48:08 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 21, 2017, 08:03:15 pm
Magical Masks: We will conjure fearsome animal masks for our leaders to wear. In addition to being badges of rank and making them look fearsome, these masks should gradually disintegrate into gases that induce changes in thinking that can be worked around with practice. Mind readers won't be able to well understand the mask wearers as a result of this, while with practice, the mask wearers will be able to function as well as normal.
Extra function in kidnapping: they can be used to inhibit the thinking of somebody we try to kidnap to stop them fighting back.
Post by: OceanSoul on March 21, 2017, 08:09:39 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 21, 2017, 08:10:37 pm
If we DO go with that plan, it may be beneficial to use some material related to the animal as sacrifice or something to conjure it, to provide an amount of relevancy that could undo the disadvantage from being unfamiliar with both masks and animals in general in our magic.Good idea. Might help make the masks more fearsome as well. I support this.
Post by: Roboson on March 21, 2017, 09:05:07 pm
Frozen Shell: A layer of ice freezes around each fog cloud, making it more difficult to blow away and shoot into.
Another suggestion: Wizard Hunters: These elite bowmen are specially trained to pick out enemy wizards and kill them before they can read the minds of our thanes.
Post by: OceanSoul on March 21, 2017, 09:16:23 pm
Post by: Roboson on March 21, 2017, 09:35:50 pm
Frozen Shell doesn't seem reasonable. For one, the shell would need support to stay up in the air around the cloud, and even more to withstand their magic wind. At that point, it would need to be some protective ice fortress, which we don't have comparable spells to lead into it. We'd have disadvantage on making it, and it would probably be a nationwide effort.
We shoot giant fireballs through the air at mindreading magicians, and you draw the line at floating ice? :P
Post by: OceanSoul on March 21, 2017, 09:50:00 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on March 21, 2017, 09:51:39 pm
For the revision, what about grabbing a large numbers of raving madmen and positioning them around the camp dressed as officers? Surly nothing can go wrong with that plan.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 21, 2017, 10:02:57 pm
Oh? You're worried about Moskurg trying to kidnap you? No worries! In our Revision Phase this turn we'll develop the Web Trap, an adaptation of the Web spell that will make the castle a deathtrap for the foul Moskurgs! In addition to that, as far as we know, Moskurg has no true ranged attack spells, while we can toss fireballs down at them in your defense!
So? What say you? Will you provide financial support in exchange for this castle?
Post by: Playergamer on March 21, 2017, 10:04:06 pm
As for the barricades...maybe Solidify Fog? It'd be a whole new spell based off of the concealing fog, it solidifies a fog bank so it can stop arrows and can't be blown away by the wind. That way archers would have cover that could be shaped to their position.
Post by: VoidSlayer on March 21, 2017, 10:04:47 pm
Or just summon snakes. Lots of poisonous snakes.
Post by: VoidSlayer on March 21, 2017, 10:10:00 pm
So far conjuring novel things seems nice but difficult while creating mundane things like beetles and fog is easy.
Post by: Roboson on March 21, 2017, 11:19:52 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 22, 2017, 02:14:10 am
Wait, what about if we broke up our formations into much smaller independent groups so that they could not just read the mind of one guy and figure out the strategy. Have battle plans made up in advance by officers and broken down into small task-lists for each independent group. The commander on scene would be handling moment to moment changes but the overall plan would be preset and not known by the commander in the field..
We don't have the communication tech to pull that of.
Iituem : You forgot to add the big Fireball spell to our list. Oh, and what do we get from capturing an area anyway, do we get some sort of resources?
On that note, it seems we have a bit of a tactical gap. With our wind spell mostly useless, we no longer have a cheap spell. However, we have 4 Expensive spells. That is kind of an issue. Here are a few ideas.
Firewood wand : A cheap wand that allows even apprentices to cast fireball spells with ease. Basically, more firepower.
Firetrap : A cheap, ritually inscribed stone. Once stepped upon, it unleashes a fireball spell. Basically, a trap the enemy can't detect because it's magical and a stone.
Fireguard forces : An elite unit consisting out of our best bowman, best swordfighters and a dozen apprentices. Their tasks will be the elimination of spying enemy wizards, and ideally even their master. The great concentration of magical power should overpower the enemy wind spells. I mean, un all likelyhood we can cast mist more than they can blow it away. The ability to cast a good 20 fireballs should allow them to push through everywhere.
On a side note, don't forget. Once we capture the sea, we can flank the Jungle.
Post by: RAM on March 22, 2017, 04:37:05 am
Used on commanders, we extract their anger and make a dummy commander that gives out simple commands with little baring on the situation. Enough to fool a remote view but shouldn't fool anyone who is actually interacting with them. Mind readers tap into a mind of pure anger, suffer a feedback loop where they become angrier and need to attack(mind read) to get revenge which makes them more enraged... and go berserk...
Used on foot-soldiers, this makes an expendable copy that is powered by pure hatred. A brief reminder that the Mosskegs are all evil and they should be thrilled to throw their lives away for the smallest chance at purging the world of a Mosskeg.
As for the princess, if she finds the summer-residence insufficient, summon up some of those crystals that we made the lances from and make them permanent, place them in a gaudy necklace, then place an enchantment that will produce miniscule flames when magic is applied to it. Offer to teach her magic so that she can activate the flames herself to make the necklace glow at will. Then magically weld that necklace onto a suit of summoned crystal armour, use its lightness to make it both stronger and lighter than normal suits. Craft for her a greataxe and proper lance from crystal. Than summon a crystal dragon with internal fire spell structures to readily produce fire breath. Then imbue all of this into a custom spell forged uniquely to her own magical signature to increasde its efficiency to a point at which it can be maintained all day. Then grant her a personal taxidermist to keep any Moskergers she claims in her private garden. Then throw away the expense credit and encourage her to tour the front with a retinue of hand-picked shield maidens...
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 22, 2017, 05:00:57 am
Same for your gift. We can do none of that stuff.
Post by: RAM on March 22, 2017, 05:39:51 am
And the gifts are just special-purpose redesigning of existing conjuring, fire, and wand research. On that note, I vote firewood wand, we shall do to magic what crossbows did to archery...
Post by: Iituem on March 22, 2017, 05:55:13 am
Iituem : You forgot to add the big Fireball spell to our list. Oh, and what do we get from capturing an area anyway, do we get some sort of resources?
I'll fix that for next time, although at the moment the Wand of Fireballs is superseding it because it doesn't have the morale penatly.
If you can hold onto the area you will indeed get benefits, some of which I have yet to determine! You will definitely get an extra army of resupply each year (currently you get 2, as does Moskurg) and probably some mountain-specific benefit, and you also get the tangible benefit of being finally able to attack Moskurg itself.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 22, 2017, 06:24:59 am
Quote
You will definitely get an extra army of resupply each year (currently you get 2, as does Moskurg)
How many armies are currently on the field?
Quote
you also get the tangible benefit of being finally able to attack Moskurg itself.
I'd rather not, actually.
Holding our ground in the mountains and letting the Moskurgiand bleed themselves dry on them seems a better strategy.
Post by: Iituem on March 22, 2017, 08:08:42 am
QuoteYou will definitely get an extra army of resupply each year (currently you get 2, as does Moskurg)
How many armies are currently on the field?
Enough. Moskurg has a one army advantage over you in the mountains and plains and has more ships overall at sea because you haven't been able to spare the troops to reinforce the navy. The King generally makes decisions on reinforcement conservatively, trying to keep forces balanced.
Incidentally, there is one roll-free Order you can give, since you have pull in this area; you can order master wizard Myark to go to a specific territory. Unless the King overrules you, Myark will fight in that territory (no roll needed) since he's a wizard and therefore broadly under your command.
Unless I hear otherwise, I think there are two votes for the Firewood Wand, and that's the strongest consensus thus far.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 22, 2017, 09:16:22 am
Quote
Moskurg has a one army advantage over you in the mountains
How?
Didn't we just destroy all the Moskurgians in the mountains?
Quote
the inhabitants of the castle are forced into surrender and captured or butchered, costing them nearly all their troops in the mountains.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 22, 2017, 09:30:25 am
Post by: Roboson on March 22, 2017, 10:19:36 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 22, 2017, 10:55:47 am
Elite antiwuzard units
Post by: Iituem on March 22, 2017, 01:57:38 pm
There is only one slight downside in that a degree of resentment and envy has arisen amongst the rank and file, who feel that the guard lord it over the rest. This provides no concrete tactical disadvantages at this point, it is just something to be aware of. Normal! Cost
It is now the Revision Phase.
QuoteMoskurg has a one army advantage over you in the mountains
How?
Didn't we just destroy all the Moskurgians in the mountains?Quotethe inhabitants of the castle are forced into surrender and captured or butchered, costing them nearly all their troops in the mountains.
You did. Moskurg reinforces, just as you do.
Also, as of the moment you are offering the princess your captured castle in the mountains as a dowry, as part of your negotiations. Are there any other offers or persuasions you wish to make?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 22, 2017, 02:01:14 pm
Post by: Roboson on March 22, 2017, 02:24:45 pm
EDIT: @Iituem, do we know why she was exiled or the current state of her home country?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 22, 2017, 02:40:12 pm
Quote
Moskurg reinforces, just as you do.
Why do we only have 1 army in the Mountains then? We never took losses there, afaik. Or can we take losses without losing?
As for offers, we could offer her the Firewand, if we spend our revision solving the issues of the spell.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 22, 2017, 02:45:31 pm
Hell, castle is a good start, but what if we promised her we'd help retake her country after we win the war? She's rich, beautiful, and has an armed regiment, so she's used to baubles and castles. But what if (in addition to those things) we offered her our mountain castle AND the castle she was exiled from? it would have to wait until after we conquer our enemies first of course.Brilliant! And a sequel hook as well!
~~~
As for offers, we could offer her the Firewand, if we spend our revision solving the issues of the spell.Why would she want a Firewand?
Post by: Roboson on March 22, 2017, 02:46:36 pm
Web Trap: A scaled-down version of the Web spell, only spewing enough webs to entrap 2 to 3 people. The benefit the Web Trap has is that it can be set as a symbol somewhere, which will automatically go off when a foe gets near it. Very useful for our current tactics.
A web trap is a great idea, but it isnt particularly deadly, just slows the enemy down. Plus, webs are pretty expensive and complex to begin with. What if we did the same thing, but with a Fire Trap? We've already got fire down to a reasonable cost, if we're going to branch into trap magic, I'd like to do it with something we know a lot about (and can kill the enemy).
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 22, 2017, 02:48:03 pm
A web trap is a great idea, but it isnt particularly deadly, just slows the enemy down. Plus, webs are pretty expensive and complex to begin with. What if we did the same thing, but with a Fire Trap? We've already got fire down to a reasonable cost, if we're going to branch into trap magic, I'd like to do it with something we know a lot about (and can kill the enemy).Eh, sure. I'll support Fire Traps.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 22, 2017, 02:50:15 pm
Why would she want a Firewand?Because it's a valuable one of a kind artefact?
Web Trap: A scaled-down version of the Web spell, only spewing enough webs to entrap 2 to 3 people. The benefit the Web Trap has is that it can be set as a symbol somewhere, which will automatically go off when a foe gets near it. Very useful for our current tactics.
A web trap is a great idea, but it isnt particularly deadly, just slows the enemy down. Plus, webs are pretty expensive and complex to begin with. What if we did the same thing, but with a Fire Trap? We've already got fire down to a reasonable cost, if we're going to branch into trap magic, I'd like to do it with something we know a lot about (and can kill the enemy).
An important thing to note is that we've pretty much saturated the expensive slot for now. We should either make very expensive spells, or cheap ones.
On a side note, I have a proposal :
Order : Send master wizard to Jungle. We have anti-wizard squads and extra reinforcements. I want to add our master wizard to push the enemy back, but more importantly, try to wound their master wizard.
Post by: Iituem on March 22, 2017, 02:58:19 pm
QuoteMoskurg reinforces, just as you do.
Why do we only have 1 army in the Mountains then? We never took losses there, afaik. Or can we take losses without losing?
As for offers, we could offer her the Firewand, if we spend our revision solving the issues of the spell.
I'm reticent about giving specific numbers about the behind-the-scenes mechanics, but essentially what happened is that the king reinforced other areas with priority where you ended up with 0 armies. Right now Arstotzka has a balanced amount of forces across its whole territory.
The Princess has given no indication of her home country, or the reasons she left it, and seems unwilling to do so. Ethnically she seems Mediterranean.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 22, 2017, 03:01:43 pm
Anyway ideas :
Cheaper Fireball Basically, upgrading our fireball spell to be cheaper
Razorwire Webs : Basically, our webs combined with our crystals. Captures and kills enemies, extremely effective against cavalry
Functional crystal Lances : Basically, fixing our first spell. It really wasn't that bad, and would help us greatly in the plains.
Post by: RAM on March 22, 2017, 03:15:06 pm
Then give BattleQueen 'The Wand' and a summer home in the mountains with a nice view of
Post by: Roboson on March 22, 2017, 03:31:08 pm
The Princess has given no indication of her home country, or the reasons she left it, and seems unwilling to do so. Ethnically she seems Mediterranean.
Eh, well we can still offer her homeland if she wants it. At the very least, it will be a bold offer. Plus the castle in the mountains. Right now we've gained territory and can launch attacks on Moskurg, we are beginning to gain the upper hand, so if she joins us, its very likely she'll gain all the riches Moskurg is offering her anyways (and we should tell her that). Marrying into the losing side, no matter how much they offer, is ill-advised.
Post by: Iituem on March 22, 2017, 08:11:42 pm
Post by: Roboson on March 22, 2017, 08:50:19 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 22, 2017, 08:56:30 pm
Post by: Roboson on March 22, 2017, 09:01:32 pm
Post by: Iituem on March 23, 2017, 07:06:12 am
Myark is reassigned to the Jungle.
Combat Phase incoming.
Post by: Iituem on March 23, 2017, 09:05:29 am
Fighting at the edge of the mountains has ground to a halt. The Arstotzkans have been able to retain ownership of the southern mountain castles, but neither side has achieved any sort of conclusive or even marginal victory due to a series of terrible storms that plagued the mountains for most of this year. Nevertheless, Moskurg has provided a much better showing, emerging in the foothills with powerful new bows to counter the traditional Arstotzkan advantage of their longbowmen. Powerful winds blow away concealment, sans farting noise, and have grown strong enough to scatter summoned swarms of ice and fire wasps, a traditional backbone of Arstotzkan magical supremacy.
Arstotzka now controls the mountains.
With control of the mountains, you are now able to finally exploit them to their fullest, as was done in the days of glorious Arstotzka past. You will receive an effective Expense reduction for all primarily metallic mundane items you design in future, for as long as you retain control over this region. In addition, now that the borders are safe proud Arstotzkan settlers can move into the mountains and live fruitful lives extracting the needed ore. This provides more materiel and more recruits for our warbands, so we will see an increased resupply rate whilst we hold the mountains.
Fighting in the jungles retains a similar stalemate. Skirmishes have gone back and forth between the two powers, sometimes favouring one side, sometimes favouring the other. Foot archers strike at one another from ambushes, with Moskurgers favouring the natural terrain whilst Arstotzkans try to create their own cover with spells. Clouds of fog are summoned and then dismissed by winds (thankfully no longer sounding like flatulence), but combat has come for the wizards in particular, as Moskurger apprentices are shot by Arstotzkan snipers and Arstotzkan thanes now travel surrounded by elite bodyguards. Worst of all, Myark has arrived and begun laying waste to sections of the jungle during major battles, blasting away with his great balls of fire amidst the swarm of lesser fireballs cast by his mages. No land is gained, but no prisoners are taken or routers slain.
Our elite guard are proving their worth. When sneaky Moskurger mystics approach, our bowmen shoot them down before they can carry out leaders' thoughts back to their troops. As such, we have been able to preserve the leadership of our thanes across the battlefields this year. Given the sudden change in our fortunes here, it seems that the Moskurger ability to effectively knock out our leadership before this has really been making a difference. Additionally, we are able to take out wizards of opportunity as well, so we've been able to cut out some of their support spells (though they still keep lifting our cover). Myark has reported no sign of al-Mutriqa, though, he seems to have been reassigned to some other region.
The plains remain troubled, with few gains. Moskurg remains militarily dominant, especially since the departure of Myark from the theatre, but powerful storms blowing down from the mountains cause a great deal of problems throughout the year. It is as if the gods themselves are favouring the proud Arstotzkan forces. The Moskurgers reveal their latest weapon, the recurve bow, a shortbow that fires with the strength of a longbow, though not quite as much range. More importantly, its shorter profile means that it can be wielded effectively on horseback, and mounted archers give Moskurg yet another advantage in skirmishes across the plains. Despite their luck, Moskurg is still able to conquer a few villages. Further success might grant them significant gains.
The gods must favour us, because we have succeeded despite military inferiority across the board. Myark's absence has made this whole territory more vulnerable. Moskurger horse archers are surrounding troops easily before peppering them with bows. They aren't much extra help in the main battle, but they are a major asset to skirmishes.
With gusts of wind blowing away fire wasps before they can reach their target sails, the seas have returned to parity. In the eastern sea, Arstotzkan forces have begun taking back portions of the coast.
No armies were lost this year, on either side. Our King has chosen to reinforce the mountains, plains and jungles, to give us clear numerical superiority.
The Princess: Both sides have courted Princess Sophia at length, with the Arstotzkans offering the real and conrete promises of the great southern castle of the mountains, where she might overlook Moskurg and fire down on it at length [+1], as well as the offer of their pricess artefact wand of fireballs as a dowry [+2].
Moskurg, meanwhile, has sought to tempt the princess over by appealing to her more romantic side, writing her poems in her name and publishing pro-Moskurger propaganda [+1] and commissioning a portrait of her royal highness to hand upon the Moskurger palace's walls [+2] and several valuable gifts [Reaction: 1d3-2 = +1]. Although she is not particularly swayed by the gifts of gold and jewels, having them aplenty herself, she is a keen rider and is flattered by the gift of Moskurg's finest riding horse, but what really excites her is the tamed, trained tiger captured from the jungle, which she names Rajah and will keep at her side as a bodyguard and pet.
[Arstotzka: 1d3+3=5] [Moskurg: 1d3+4=5] As a practical woman, Princesss Sophia knows that Arstotzka is the sensible choice, but her young heart is tempted by the romance of Moskurg. [Coin Toss: Heads = Arstotzka, Tails = Moskurg.]
[Coin: Tails!] In a victory for romance over pragmatism, Princess Sophie accepts the hand in marriage of the King of Moskurg. Both her beauty, wit and wealth have joined the side of Moskurg.
Moskurg has gained an Expense Credit. This can be spent to reduce the expense of any one design, present or future by one rank.
Spoiler: Poetry (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Portrait of Princess Sophie (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: An Unabashed Biography of King Moskurg (click to show/hide)
Decision Time
After centuries of warfare, the rise of magic has called into question what to do with prisoners in this new age. After a particularly bad battle, victors are often able to capture routing enemy soldiers and traditionally it has been up to local commanders whether to release, ransom or execute prisoners. Yet more and more these days authority is evolving to the King to make such decisions. Your Kings have asked your advice on how to proceed.
Each side may vote on what Prisoner Policy they adopt. From hence forth, this will affect all future battles and in a fluff sense how I describe routs.
Chivalry: You can arrange to have prisoners released after capture, once they have been divorced of weapons and armour. Many prisoners may be too injured to survive, but this will spare a great many as well. Your people will be heartened by their reputation as honourable combatants. [This will reduce enemy casualties by 1 army per turn, but grant your troops a permanent morale bonus.]
Pragmatism: Everybody loses men in war. Instead of letting these fools go freely, you can ransom them for wealth, or your own captured men back. If they can't pay the ransom, then you execute them to prove that you are men of your word. [This will reduce your casualties by 1 army per turn, as you trade men for men.]
Terror: Let the skulls of your enemies be mounted upon your standards. Any enemy captured will be butchered, there and then, to send a message to your foe that their gods/God will not save them. Whilst you cannot expect much mercy from your enemy as a result, they will most certainly fear you. [Casualties will happen as normal for both sides, but your enemies will suffer a permanent morale penalty.]
It is now 914, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 914 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 23, 2017, 09:27:23 am
~~~
Anyways. I vote Pragmatism.
~~~
Let's try this again, but with more study. Fire Traps, as before.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 23, 2017, 09:31:00 am
I'd hoped we'd get a warning if we'd try to do something impossible.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 23, 2017, 09:31:44 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 23, 2017, 09:44:28 am
Quote
You will receive an effective Expense reduction for all primarily metallic mundane items you design in future, for as long as you retain control over this region.
Question : Do our current metallic designs get the bonus as well? Or is it only new stuff? If it's only new stuff, do revisions work?
Post by: Iituem on March 23, 2017, 09:51:57 am
QuoteYou will receive an effective Expense reduction for all primarily metallic mundane items you design in future, for as long as you retain control over this region.
Question : Do our current metalluc designs get the bonus as well?
Your current designs are aimed at taking advantage of what metal was available in the taiga. The expense bonus reflects your ability to design more metal-heavy equipment in future. At the moment I'm disinclined to apply the bonus retrospectively (applying to both sides).
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 23, 2017, 09:53:43 am
Post by: Iituem on March 23, 2017, 09:59:00 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 23, 2017, 10:32:14 am
We're missing the Moskurgian wizard. He's gone from the jungle, and we can't find him anywhere else.
In the mountains, we lost our ranged advantage, concealment and insects.
In the jungle, we have been succesfully murdering their wizards but without much success otherwise
In the plains, we're being pressed hard. Those horse archers are bad news.
On the seas, we've lost our firebat advantage, putting everything equal again.
Oh, and we'll be fighting in the desert next turn, so that'll be two places with large open terrain where their horse archers can murder our forces. We need to deal with those one way or the other. Their wind wizardy is becoming annoying though, cancelling out our insects.
Anti-horse archer ideas :
Firewand : Cheap fireballs for novices. Everyone happy.
---> Advantage : Fireballs are useful everywhere
---> Advantage : Horses are afraid of fire
---> Disadvantage : Continues reliance on ranged fire spells => vulnerable to wind wizardy
Improved compound bow : Cheaper, stronger, better
---> Advantage : Massed archers defeat horse archers
---> Disadvantage : Vulnerable to wind Wizardy
Razorwire Webs : A web reinforced with crystal. Summon in front of a moving cavalry squad, and see as they tear themselves to shreds
---> Advantage : Likely to inflict actual casualties
---> Advantage : Not vulnerable to wind wizardy
---> Disadvantage : High cost wizardy
Post by: Roboson on March 23, 2017, 10:57:01 am
For design, I'm voting for plate armor for our infantry. That stuff is basically invincible. The penetration depth of even bodkin arrows shot from a longbow at close range (20 meters) isn't enough to kill someone, and you can forget about long range. Blades? Nope. Spear/dagger on a stick? Nope. Lance? Yeah, but the enemy doesn't have those.
So plate armor.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 23, 2017, 11:23:59 am
Since we won't be able outfit all our forces, I fear using plate may make our forces invincible but useless.
Post by: Roboson on March 23, 2017, 12:36:19 pm
With our new metal bonus, which decreases cost, and perhaps one revision, we can probably crank out armor that's a billion times better than the enemy's cloth armor.
Post by: OceanSoul on March 23, 2017, 12:47:16 pm
..What if we had a way to conjure the enemy's arrows from midair? If done well enough, we could conjure the arrows in the opposite direction, turning them and maybe their "strike true" enchantment on themselves! On a weaker roll, we could take them from their storehouses, reducing the power of their archers.
Post by: Roboson on March 23, 2017, 01:12:34 pm
If we do that, though, they'll find a way to counter it, like making their blades strike true to weak points, too. Heck, "strike true" might already be able to make arrows hit the joints and such on armor, though those attacks would be less lethal.
..What if we had a way to conjure the enemy's arrows from midair? If done well enough, we could conjure the arrows in the opposite direction, turning them and maybe their "strike true" enchantment on themselves! On a weaker roll, we could take them from their storehouses, reducing the power of their archers.
I dont understand the argument there. Your argueing that they have to aim for knees and elbows (the weak points) instead of the heart. Right now the enemy's arrows are hitting us in the chest (And its going right through our leather armor). With armor they'll be trying to hit our men in the elbow, the armpit, and the back of the knee (and it may not even go through because of armor). Even if they still get the bonus to accuracy, they'll have to aim for non-lethal areas. Which is much better than aiming at our currently lightly armored lethal areas.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 23, 2017, 01:27:33 pm
Plate armor is not heavy at all. Plate armor can weigh 30-50 pounds distributed across the entire body. Chain mail weighs about 20-30 pounds, but offers signifigantly less protection. Heck, American soldiers carry a 60-100 pound pack, and that's just on their back, which is way more restrictive to mobility. So, that's about six to ten pounds per limb and on the torso, which is almost nothing. And its beyond nothing when you consider that that extra 6-10 pounds makes you highly resistant to the enemies arrows, and invincible to blades except at the joints.
With our new metal bonus, which decreases cost, and perhaps one revision, we can probably crank out armor that's a billion times better than the enemy's cloth armor.
In that case, objection withdrawn.
Vote for Plate Metal Armor
If we do that, though, they'll find a way to counter it, like making their blades strike true to weak points, too. Heck, "strike true" might already be able to make arrows hit the joints and such on armor, though those attacks would be less lethal.
..What if we had a way to conjure the enemy's arrows from midair? If done well enough, we could conjure the arrows in the opposite direction, turning them and maybe their "strike true" enchantment on themselves! On a weaker roll, we could take them from their storehouses, reducing the power of their archers.
Yes, but they'll have to counter it in 3 ways : Ranged, close range and magical. That's 3 designs for one. Plate armor fominated European weaponry design for near a century.
Conjuration is not teleportation. It's making stuff from thin air. And it's not like arrows are a rare resource.
Post by: RAM on March 23, 2017, 05:45:18 pm
More specifically, it draws magic from from the ground and forces it outwards like a centrifuge through swirling patterns of fog and inciting many collisions. By the time it is expelled from the fog, it is a chaotic mess of incompatible energy-levels and discordant trajectories that dissipate incoming magic forms. thus magic is more stable within than without.
Alternatively, use what we know of summoning magic swarms to summon a living fog with basic magic manipulation enough to exert its will in opposition to encroaching magical effects. With luck it might be willing to play host to our own magics.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 23, 2017, 05:57:51 pm
Post by: RAM on March 23, 2017, 06:17:04 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on March 23, 2017, 08:52:24 pm
Edit: Since plate armour is still likely to be expensive let's make it officer armour, and then revise our chainmail to be general equipment with a breastplate.
Post by: Roboson on March 23, 2017, 09:24:41 pm
Edit: Since plate armour is still likely to be expensive let's make it officer armour, and then revise our chainmail to be general equipment with a breastplate.
-1, we may as well have it for everyone. Even if its expensive, we can use that revision credit on the plate instead of the chainmail and get it down to inexpensive.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on March 23, 2017, 10:27:38 pm
I guess thats a valid plan i'll support it instead of mine.Edit: Since plate armour is still likely to be expensive let's make it officer armour, and then revise our chainmail to be general equipment with a breastplate.
-1, we may as well have it for everyone. Even if its expensive, we can use that revision credit on the plate instead of the chainmail and get it down to inexpensive.
Post by: Iituem on March 23, 2017, 10:28:02 pm
The problem is that you apparently haven't the slightest idea how to make plate armour. You smith multiple curved plates of armour, fitting them together to cover every part of the body, which they do. Unfortunately the test subjects couldn't then move, because you couldn't figure out any way to cover them whilst still allowing enough movement. Even later efforts resulted in highly limited mobility, despite designs ranging from chainmail with bits stuck on top to a sort of giant tortoise a man could fit inside. Right now, the protection afforded is completely negated by the fact that its wearers have the manoeuvrability of a dead snail. Against all odds, Normal Cost.
[Note that your material bonus from having the mountains is already applied.]
Post by: Roboson on March 23, 2017, 10:43:31 pm
Edit: To be more mobile.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 23, 2017, 10:54:01 pm
Hm. Improving the Plate Mail can wait until we have improvement magic.
For now? Lingering Mist: This mist naturally congeals itself, meaning it can reform once or twice after being dispelled.
Post by: RAM on March 23, 2017, 11:14:41 pm
Armour that cannot move is useless, we are not wasting another main phase, even if the armour is mostly useless anyway. Revise armour to be mobile. If we can't make anything else work, use rivets and ball-bearings(and obviously large overhanging sheaths to protect the open areas) for the simple joins and ball-and-socket joints(With the massive flared sockets to leave room enough to bend without cutting off the limb.) for the omnidirectional stuff. Assuming that we can't go from a metal box to gothic plate in one revision...
Post by: OceanSoul on March 23, 2017, 11:20:38 pm
Post by: Roboson on March 24, 2017, 12:01:27 am
Post by: RAM on March 24, 2017, 12:16:19 am
Post by: Roboson on March 24, 2017, 12:26:54 am
That is why we learn to make permanent conjurations. And seriously, do you know how difficult it is to make armour? Magic can just poof the whole thing up to a premade template. Getting all the details right would take a lot of work, but once the design was perfected I can't imagine that it would be a fraction as difficult to magic up a set as it is to smith the thing out conventionally.
I'm perfectly aware of how difficult it is to make armor. But, even if we get magic armor possible to poof out in perfect form (which would likely take at least two design phases and tons of revisions) and make it permanent (probably at least another design phase and a revision or two), and make it easy enough so we can give it to all our soldiers (which is at least two more revisions) then we would still have to use one of our casting slots to equip our soldiers with it, which means we'd have less spells to use against the enemy.
Post by: RAM on March 24, 2017, 01:00:51 am
So yes, it takes a little while to get that technology, but you are getting things to use from each step your increase your technology by. Those fireball traps require at least two designs, but we got the fireball spell from the first one so it is not like it was just a wasted design to get there.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 24, 2017, 01:34:54 am
Post by: Iituem on March 24, 2017, 05:06:04 am
Oof. Zero on Design, 1 on revision. Bad rolls this turn all around.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 24, 2017, 06:09:18 am
I mean, we got a bonus for revisioning our minor fireball, so I don't see why we wouldn't get a bonus, which is even easier.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 24, 2017, 06:10:32 am
They got their expense credit, and probably a design and revision as well, while got nothing.
Post by: Iituem on March 24, 2017, 06:46:07 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 24, 2017, 07:31:05 am
I must say, I hadn't noticed. They appeared to be doing quite well then actually, while we got absolutely nothing despite rolling only half as much 1's.
Post by: Iituem on March 24, 2017, 08:00:45 am
Harsh weather persists in the southern mountains, and hard fighting at the foothills remains confined to the border. No major losses are reported, but neither are any territorial gains. Moskurgers fail to take back any ground at the deadly Krozkan Pass beneath the castle promised to their now-Queen, but neither can the Arstotzkans push past the last line of border forts to reach the desert. The Moskurgers seemed inspired, partially by their commitment to chivalry and honour, and partly by the presence of none other than the Sun Hammer himself, al-Mutriqa, who leads the defence.
The jungles see a slow push backwards for Arstotzka. As before, neither side conclusively wins most skirmishes, but Moskurg manages to pull through in a few crucial battles and takes a vital fort on the way to the last major Arstotzkan encampment. Further victory may well lead to Moskurger control over the jungle.
Fighting hasn't changed much here in the jungle, but we have noticed a key difference. The Moskurger wizards and some of their knights are now seemingly surrounded by a sort of shield composed of fast-moving air that deflects arrows and blows. The shield only seems limited to two targets at most, and up close it is less useful, but it is stopping our snipers from taking out their wizards at a distance and might pose problems if we ever try to assassinate their leaderhsip. The good news is, they still can't get close enough to read our thoughts without getting into range for our arrows to overcome those shields of theirs by sheer number. Myark remains present, keeping the enemy at bay.
Additionally, many of our troops were captured in the siege of our fort. We were readying to ransom them back when they were returned to us, relieved of weapons and armour, having already been cared for by Moskurger healers. Ready, once re-equipped, to go straight back into the field.
In the plains, the Moskurg advantage is pressed home with heavy reinforcement. Arstotzkan light troops are now essentially unable to compete in plains skirmishes, being eliminated with cold efficiency by horse archers and hidden Moskurger shortbowmen. Groups of stragglers are wiped out by teams of a dozen squads, converging from seemingly random positions on isolated enemies. Nowhere is this more deadly or apparent than in massed battle, where Moskurger light infantry move in terrifyingly co-ordinated formations, whilst archers and horse archers encircle, trap and flank with inhuman ability. Moskurg wins every major engagement, pressing back against Arstotzkan troops until they reach the border forts, then taking those as well.
Moskurg holds the plains. If they can hold them for another turn, they will achieve control.
This proved to be a disaster, much of which we attribute to the Moskurger battle co-ordination. They seem to be able to coordinate troop movements far faster and more efficiently than drums and runners should be able to manage. We've seen this sort of co-ordination before, but only during skirmishes, a few squads at a time. We put it down to concealed messengers or visual signals before, but on this scale there must be some sort of magical assistance. Some of the Moskurg success may be put down to luck, however.
We lost a lot of troops. Between Moskurger prisoner management and ransoms for the less salubrious captors, we were able to repatriate a full army's worth of soldiers, but we lost twice that. Probably for the best that we have so much extra resupply.
At sea, the future remains muddy and uncertain. In the eastern sea, Moskurger forces take back the portion of coast that the Arstotzkans took last year, sinking a number of haboured ships in the process.
We lost about five armies' worth of troops and ships this year, two of which we got back due to ransoms and chivalry. With our reinforcements, this is neither a net gain or loss for us. The King replenishes the forces lost.
Decision Time: Arstotzka has adopted Pragmatism, Moskurg has adopted Chivalry.
Revision Credit: A cultured scholar, Jibril Saadiya, has come to the isle of Forenia, having heard rumours of magic. He claims to be a mystic and alchemist, and whilst you have doubts about that he certainly seems sharp and would be a welcome addition to your design team. He appears to be a Saracen and consequently enjoys culture, entertainment and erudition. The nation that is the most cultured, entertaining or erudite will attract this scholar and his keen mind.
It is 915, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 915 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Turn 1 was a bust for them?
I must say, I hadn't noticed. They appeared to be doing quite well then actually, while we got absolutely nothing despite rolling only half as much 1's.
They had a major bug to one of their enchantments which caused their mages to go mad and die, took them two turns to fix, imposed morale penalties the whole time that cancelled out the benefits they were getting.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 24, 2017, 08:16:10 am
Quote
They had a major bug to one of their enchantments which caused their mages to go mad and die, took them two turns to fix, imposed morale penalties the whole time that cancelled out the benefits they were getting.
Cancelled out their benefits? They used it perfectly effectively to destroy our forces in the Jungle and plains.
Anyway, we're losing heavily now. Because we failed to do anything last turn, everything is even more screwed up than it was before, and stuff was screwed then too.
The problem is that the enemy has spells that negate ours completely, for far lower cost and design issues than ours.
Their gust of wind stops 3 of our spells on it's own, their starting spells basically negated 1. Incidentally, I've got the feeling that our very expensive web spell is pretty much useless, while their very expensive mind reading spell completely dominated the battlefield. I mean, despite the fact that we're supposed to have a spell that allows us to kill our enemies easier, they have always inflicted more losses on us.
Are there any areas in which we were better?
Because honestly, as far as I can see the battlefield was heavily tilted against us from the start.
We were supposed to be the nation that was stronger in Skirmishing, but the Moskurgians did better than us there. We were supposed to be the nation that was better in routing their forces, but they did better than us there. In the mainline too, the Moskurgians reign supreme. And now even at Sea, where our fireballs should allow us to win easily, they're gaining terrain.
In my opinion, the initial status was not balanced at all. Moskurgian mind readers dominated the battlefield, Moskurgian ambush detectors detected our magical ambushes (despite the description explicitedly saying that they shouldn't), Moskurgian archery is completely unaffected by mist that should hinder them.
Oh, and Moskurgian cavalry has been annoying us for ages, while ours hasn't even been mentioned yet.
Anyway, we need something to blow up lots of Moskurgians at once, and deal with their horse archers.
Inferno :
A modification of the fireball spell, intended to be cheaper and easier to cast. Inferno does not throw fireballs per se, but rather causes massive fires to erupt surrounding the enemy lines. Magical fire, that springs up under their feet, so that their wind spells don't stop it too. Horses are afraid of fire, and the formations they favor should easily find themselves surrounded by escalating brush fires.
Do please inform us if this would attract some penalty for one reason or the other.
Post by: Iituem on March 24, 2017, 08:55:03 am
Their gust of wind stops 3 of our spells on it's own, their starting spells basically negated 1. Incidentally, I've got the feeling that our very expensive web spell is pretty much useless, while their very expensive mind reading spell completely dominated the battlefield. I mean, despite the fact that we're supposed to have a spell that allows us to kill our enemies easier, they have always inflicted more losses on us.
Are there any areas in which we were better?
Because honestly, as far as I can see the battlefield was heavily tilted against us from the start.
We were supposed to be the nation that was stronger in Skirmishing, but the Moskurgians did better than us there. We were supposed to be the nation that was better in routing their forces, but they did better than us there. In the mainline too, the Moskurgians reign supreme. And now even at Sea, where our fireballs should allow us to win easily, they're gaining terrain.
In my opinion, the initial status was not balanced at all. Moskurgian mind readers dominated the battlefield, Moskurgian ambush detectors detected our magical ambushes (despite the description explicitedly saying that they shouldn't), Moskurgian archery is completely unaffected by mist that should hinder them.
Oh, and Moskurgian cavalry has been annoying us for ages, while ours hasn't even been mentioned yet.
- Moskurg was never able to detect your magical traps with their detect traps spell; that was a duff interpretation on my part to demonstrate their mind reading, but I realise it sounded like their spell was overbuffed.
- Mind Reading cancelled officer bonuses, but could be stopped with bodyguards on thanes - which you did. Your elite witch hunters provide a bodyguard bonus that negates mind reading whilst also applying a penalty to all spell support, which forced Moskurg to research their own bodyguard spell. Unfortunately I didn't communicate this too well because I don't like to be too explicit to either side as to potential counters to leave room for creative solutions.
- Web was underpowered, it gave you a big bonus to the Rout phase but that phase doesn't tend to contribute to battle success, rather driving home victory. I've halved the bonus and applied it to both Rout and Skirmish now, (+1 to both instead of +2 to one) since that's actually more in line with what a Very Expensive spell should be. That's a balance problem from me, my bad.
- Obscuring mist has been giving you a skirmish bonus (attack and defence) since day 1, in line with a 'common' spell. They didn't figure out how to defeat that for several turns.
- Fireball gave a flat bonus to melee, counted double on the attack with a bonus to offensive skirmish. Heroism had a similar bonus set, but balanced as an attack/defence bonus with no benefit to aggression or defensiveness.
In terms of initial setup, both sides had equal skirmish bonuses with Moskurg's weighted towards the jungle and Arstotzka's to the mountains. Neither side had officer bonuses in the jungle, whilst you had officer bonuses based out of mountains and they had officer bonuses based out of plains. Equally, I gave Arstotzka better general melee stats (with a slight edge in the mountains and jungles, both where their infantry fight better) with Moskurg having melee bonuses that applied to the plains (formation and numbers).
Overall, I have tried to keep things balanced but admit fault on poor descriptions of circumstances. I have rebalanced a few spells to even things out; Web now applies skirmish bonuses instead of (less useful) heavy rout bonuses, the Fireball wand (and reverse engineered spell) has been strengthened accordingly.
With a mind to redressing disadvantage over time, I will apply a morale bonus to all Arstotzkan troops next turn, since I did cock up on the balance for the initial spells.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 24, 2017, 08:57:24 am
Sorry if I sound harsh, but you get kind of involved in these things.
Post by: Iituem on March 24, 2017, 08:59:28 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 24, 2017, 09:22:51 am
Inferno :
A modification of the big fireball spell, intended to be cheaper and easier to cast. Inferno does not throw fireballs per se, but rather causes massive fires to erupt surrounding the enemy lines. Magical fire, that springs up under their feet, so that their wind spells don't stop it too. Horses are afraid of fire, and the formations they favor should easily find themselves surrounded by escalating brush fires.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on March 24, 2017, 10:27:59 am
Anyway, for ideas.+1 Ill support this, this should also make burning ships up much easier.
Inferno :
A modification of the fireball spell, intended to be cheaper and easier to cast. Inferno does not throw fireballs per se, but rather causes massive fires to erupt surrounding the enemy lines. Magical fire, that springs up under their feet, so that their wind spells don't stop it too. Horses are afraid of fire, and the formations they favor should easily find themselves surrounded by escalating brush fires.
Post by: Roboson on March 24, 2017, 11:04:46 am
Also, is it just me, or do they have radios? I'm reading back through the updates and I'm basically certain they invented radios so their squads can coordinate better than ours. That or like magic mirrors that let them facetime via magic.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on March 24, 2017, 11:06:29 am
Post by: OceanSoul on March 24, 2017, 11:14:24 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 24, 2017, 11:15:24 am
I think we need something to dig in and really try and hold our position in the plains.
We don't have a position in the plains. We got pushed out. The Moskurgians conquered 2 units of territory at once, and now we need to attack to take it back.
One-way glass that conjures the image of the person on another one-way glass?
We're on the back foot. Now is not the time for Wunderwaffen.
Stay with what we know. Don't attract minuses.
But if you want a more defensive spell
Wall of fire
This spell summons a massive wall of fire in whatever shape the wizard who casts it desires. It can be used to protect friendly lines, funnel enemy forces or surround and burn up enemy ambushes. Expense is aimed at being at worst very expensive. The fire is magical, and thus won't do stupid things like being blown out by a bit of wind.
Speaking about attracting damaging side effects, I have decided to make my voted action less ambitious.
Wand of Fire
A second attempt to reverse engineer the wand of fire. The idea of this wand, made of alloys strong enough to sustain great amount of heats without burning the wielder, is to make it much easier and cheaper to cast the fireball spells that make up our primary arsenal. With the new wands, one no longer needs to be a master to cast the spell, allowing a much greater concentration of firepower.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 24, 2017, 11:42:55 am
Wall of fire+1
This spell summons a massive wall of fire in whatever shape the wizard who casts it desires. It can be used to protect friendly lines, funnel enemy forces or surround and burn up enemy ambushes. Expense is aimed at being at worst very expensive. The fire is magical, and thus won't do stupid things like being blown out by a bit of wind.
Post by: Roboson on March 24, 2017, 11:50:00 am
I think we need something to dig in and really try and hold our position in the plains.
We don't have a position in the plains. We got pushed out. The Moskurgians conquered 2 units of territory at once, and now we need to attack to take it back.
Wow, didn't even know it was possible to take two units of territory at once.
I can get behind (official vote) wall of fire, but its likely that will get countered in the coming turns as they upgrade their wind spells. Honestly I'd prefer something to counter their new archers (which despite being not magical, are kicking our asses. Shout out to what could have been pikes) or something to counter their ability to coordinate their troops. But it looks like this turn fire wall has overwhelming support.
Honestly, if we can get a magic communications scrambler up and running, that will destroy their advantage. Food for thought later.
Edit: now that webs are going to be more useful in skirmishes and combat, we could reopen the razor web concept. Who knows, maybe RAM was on the right track with buffing our wizardite... still going to vote for armor revision though.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 24, 2017, 11:53:13 am
Quote
Shout out to what could have been pikes
Pikes would not have done that. Your plate mail could have done it, I believe. I would very much like to revise that into functionality this turn.
Do note however, that we got a double walloping this turn. We were lucky last turn, they got the expense credit (which should expire now, so that should help), and we accomplished nothing.
That was a whole lot of failure accumulating.
On a side note, should we move our master wizard to the plains. Could loose us the Jungle, but could also push the Moskurgians back.
Post by: Roboson on March 24, 2017, 12:00:05 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 24, 2017, 12:08:24 pm
Quote
Revision Credit: A cultured scholar, Jibril Saadiya, has come to the isle of Forenia, having heard rumours of magic. He claims to be a mystic and alchemist, and whilst you have doubts about that he certainly seems sharp and would be a welcome addition to your design team. He appears to be a Saracen and consequently enjoys culture, entertainment and erudition. The nation that is the most cultured, entertaining or erudite will attract this scholar and his keen mind.
On Arztotskan literacy
It is a simple fact, that Arztotska is the most literate nation in Forenia. Certainly, we have the greatest amount of literature and libraries in Forenia, and have had so for ages. The origin for this peculiar fact is climate. Arztotska's cold and long winters are dark and boring. Without anything to do and with tremendous cold outside, Artotzkan's started writing books in varying materials. As the winter lengthened, the worst of these manuscripts were thrown into the fire to keep our noble citizens from freezing.
Through ages of natural selection, only the best novels and stories were preserved. Materials changed, from wooden bark to paper to magically enhanced means of writing, but the tradition persevered. The healthy smoke of literacy engulfs Arztotska citizens from the moment they were born till the moment they die.
Since the invention of Artotska's most precious technology, the Axe, dramatic changes have engulfed the literary community. No longer is wood a precious and limited resource. No longer must the weakest of works be burned. The sudden unleashing of talent has resulted in the creation of thousands of new works, many greatly beloved, some reviled. Occasionally, books too horrific to unleash upon the world are still burned, preserving academic standards. For a short period of time, it was considered to burn the author as well, on the fire of his own books. This practice was abandoned once it became clear that even the most prolific writer was unlikely to finish more than 3 books per winter.
Post by: Roboson on March 24, 2017, 01:41:01 pm
The magical advances discovered by our military's wise and often unlucky research and development team have created several spin-off technologies that have made their way into everyday life. One such example is the Great Arstotzkan Amphitheater in Arstotzka's capital. The large structure is only used during the short summer months, as it to cold and snowy during the rest of the year to use it. During this wonderful and warm(ish) time, the amphitheater is used almost around the clock to display Arstozkan's greatest plays, as a concert venue for its choirs and orchestras, and for a variety of other shows. One of the most popular shows has been the Magical Demonstration Act, put on by three of our wizards. They put on a wondrous show utilizing the spells researched by our military. Wasps, webs, crystal, and fire are all used to astound and intrigue the audience. The program started as an outreach to try and get more people to join the army, but it has developed far beyond that. Three wizards who do the acts have become true artists, devising new shows every few weeks. Whether its an interpretive dance around controlled fireballs, acrobatics using webs, or areal spectaculars using thousands of wasps in formation, these wizards have found new ways to bring magic to the everyday citizen of our fine country.
Few inventions have made their way to the everyday person, but one ingenious use of magic has began to make big waves among the populace. A quite clever wizard that was injured severely and relieved of duty opened a new service in the capital. He has been providing hot steamy water, even in the winter months. Utilizing the magic lance spell he learned in the army and the help of a blacksmith friend of his, he creates metal pipes with several magic lances in the center. By coating the lances in metal, the metal turns into a pipe when the lances dissipate. Doing so has created a magical dependent way of creating pipes. The wizard, having a very cheap and easy way of creating pipes, then goes into business as the entrepreneur of a bathhouse. Using a large thick furnace and an incredible array of pipes, the wizard is able to provide steamy water to all patrons, and there are a lot of patrons as it costs very little to use the services there. Noblemen and peasants alike mingle here. The establishment even has a large laundry section where citizens can come to wash their clothes in addition to their bodies. His pipe idea has been picked up by the government, who is currently trying to mass produce the interlocking pipes (both in a metal and ceramic form) in order to improve the sewage and water system of the capital, as well as provide a heating system to homes (although right now that privilege has only been implemented within the royal palace, using a similar method of piping to distribute heat created by a royal wizard throughout the palace). However, almost no wizards have been differed from the war effort for this task, so the going is currently slow. The hope is that in time, the entire country will enjoy full and easy access to running water and heat, but it will have to wait until after the war when more wizards are available to practice their magic for the good of their people.
Another spin-off of magic is the creation of Wizard Silk. The webs created by wizards has been spun into a fine and luxurious silk. The new and wonderful cloth has become all the rage in noble circles throughout the country. Not only is it softer than the wool that most people had become accustomed to, but it is much easier to manufacture. As one strong wizard can produce a great deal of the webs, enough to completely entangle an enemy squad, the material is easy to collect, and cheap to make. Its become so common that even peasants can afford to buy some in order to make fine clothing to attend church and formal events. In more affluent households, the new Wizard Silk is being used to make wonderful clothes, sheets, curtains, and other cloth items. It has revolutionized fashion, to the point that fashion has become a leading conversation topic among lords and ladies. Master tailors are able to work wonders with the cloth and are cloaking the noble people of Arstozka in fasionable articles to the highest degree. Indeed, wizard silk has led to the inclusion of fashion almost to an art form, and certainly to a degree where it is becoming more closely tied to Arstozka culture.
These magical spin-off technologies are quickly becoming a integral part of culture within Arstotzka, much to the benefit of lords, ladies, and peasants alike.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 24, 2017, 01:55:41 pm
Post by: Roboson on March 24, 2017, 02:16:00 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 24, 2017, 02:19:08 pm
Step 1 : Crystal lance
Step 2: Dip in metal
Step 3 : Lance dissolves
Step 4 : Summon new crystal in lance before battle, use metal crystallic lance to attack.
Post by: Roboson on March 24, 2017, 02:58:31 pm
Edit: On Arstotzka Architecture
Atstotzka architecture could be described as somewhat Gothic, with an emphasis on beautiful exteriors, but pragmatic design. Arstotzkans are, if nothing else, a pragmatic and rational people. This is apperant even in their architecture. Their cities are well designed and easy to navigate, and their buildings are soundly constructed with a great deal of forethought and spacial understanding. Roads are well kept, wide, and well designed so that they may last for as long as the Arstotzkan people. Forever. Their buildings, composed of stone, wood, and brick are sturdy to a fault. There is a great dichotomy between what is called "Low Arstotzkan design" and "high Arstotzkan design." Low Arstotzkan design does not imply its inferiority, but is more a description of its style. Architects of this school prefer low laying designs, often only one or two stories at a maximum. This style uses a great number of hexagons in its design, not only because of the ascetic value, but because of the strength of the walls and also because it allows the roof's weight to be evenly distributed. Low Arstotzkan design is typically used to construct family homes (most families homes are kept for generations, and are well kept and constructed as a symbol of familial and national pride), as well as many businesses and other similar buildings. There is a great emphasis on natural lighting, and windows are everywhere. While no one would go so far as to call the style ornate, but beautiful it is. Arstotzkan craftsmen have perfected their craft for generations, and the world knows no better wood carvers, and their work is everywhere in Arstotzkan.
Really anything that is not a government, church, or royal building, is probably constructed with Low style. However, those buildings are often constructed using the high style. They are typically several stories tall, with multiple towers. Stained glass windows are common, and used to great effect. These buildings are truly beautiful, and ornate to some degree. They often have a great deal of murals on ceilings and wall depicting the great events of our nation's history. There are few of these buildings in each town, but they are easily recognizable by the height and the style, which is another hallmark of Arstotzka, pragmatism. Any stranger to Arstotzka can navigate to important buildings from anywhere nearby, and the citizens are more than happy to direct anyone (except Moskburg bastards). Of these great buildings, none are more incredible than Arstotzka's great libraries and universities. They are great wealths of knowledge, and work to advance the sciences. The pragmatic people of Arstotzkan are pragmatic, and hold science and knowledge as very important. Church and religion are viewed more as a family value, and the government does little in regards to regulate them. However, this does not mean that the people are not religious, although some of them are not, they simply just do not flaunt it like the Moskburgs.
Post by: RAM on March 24, 2017, 04:33:05 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 24, 2017, 04:34:55 pm
Post by: RAM on March 24, 2017, 04:56:54 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 24, 2017, 05:06:02 pm
Currently, we have 1 apprentice per 5 squads. You want to go to 1:1.
Post by: Roboson on March 24, 2017, 05:16:38 pm
Two questions:
1) If we manage to get wizardite to last weeks, or days even, will we need to devote spells to maintain the armor and weapons during combat, or will it count as out of battle type of magic?
2) Can everyone learn magic or only those naturally gifted with it innately?
Post by: Iituem on March 24, 2017, 05:32:38 pm
b) There are varying talents. In theory everyone could learn magic in the way that in theory everyone can learn advanced calculus. Some are going to be much better than others, but it all comes down to the training. Right now training in both countries is bottlenecked due to availability of education and materials.
Post by: RAM on March 24, 2017, 05:44:25 pm
Pretty sure that's not going to work. Seems like something that would have -4 modifiers.No, I never said that nor implied that. Not even slightly. Please stop just randomly making stuff up. 1 apprentice per 5 squads to one apprentice per squad is just random. I am not talking about training new apprentices, they would be less than apprentices. If we roll well then maybe we would get more apprentices as they are revealed in basic training, but it would basically just be introducing an introduction to magic into the military training(Do we even have military training? I am guessing no, so that is something else that we could do). Less than the magic teaching that an apprentice has. Now likely not everyone has an aptitude for magic and it would still not be universal, but if we aim low in the spells that they can use then we could get a major proportion of our forces capable of doing something magical. Combine this with our experience of wands and it could be huge! My current plan is to move into making a wand that is actually a bow. The wand part summons arrows and the bow works normally, thus providing arrows that replenish with magical ability and don't need to be drawn form a quiver and disappear after a few seconds so can't be reused. We could even try some uncontrolled fire magic in the mix to make them burst into flames when they expire to make up for them not remaining in the wound. As wands the requirements for use would be greatly reduced and arrows are only small and very temporary so it could actually work with basic training.
Currently, we have 1 apprentice per 5 squads. You want to go to 1:1.
Currently our magic is really far too limited in quantity to account for their numbers. New spells can only go so far. We need new technologies and new resources...
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 24, 2017, 05:54:18 pm
We don't have the actions in reserve to do that. We have to get results now.
Post by: RAM on March 24, 2017, 07:24:08 pm
Post by: Iituem on March 24, 2017, 09:40:11 pm
This spell proves ideal in large-scale combat, where it can be used defensively to screen our troops but also aggressively to forcibly channel the enemy or strike at their emplacements. In theory it could be used defensively in skirmishes (though the nature of skirmishes would prevent aggressive use because of local manoeuvrability) but right now the major flaw in the spell is its extremely lengthy casting time; an hour even for the very skilled. Whilst this lengthy casting time is in place it can be used effectively on the main battlefield where one has time to prepare, but not in skirmishes. Very Expensive.
Post by: Roboson on March 24, 2017, 09:48:08 pm
Edit: Oh, and the scholar?
Post by: RAM on March 24, 2017, 10:49:40 pm
Ehh, I am +1ing the armour because throwing good money after bad is always fun.
I am adding a proposal to place the wall of fire into a wand because that casting time is brutal and wands help with casting.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 25, 2017, 01:22:26 am
Why did we attract a -1 for the spell, again? It's not exactly new research.
Post by: RAM on March 25, 2017, 01:25:28 am
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on March 25, 2017, 09:28:58 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 25, 2017, 09:47:34 am
Sabres are slashing weapons, and plate armor is impenetrable to those. The weapon is competely unsuited to attack even the weak areas. Their spear suffers from the same issues. It's a simple thing, not a complex anti armor weapon like a halberd or pollaxe.
Post by: Iituem on March 25, 2017, 05:43:02 pm
Revise armor
Why did we attract a -1 for the spell, again? It's not exactly new research.
+1 -1 0 for making it deliberately expensive, -1 0 -1 for ambition (additional expense already taken into account). It isn't new magic because you've got the base spells down pat, but you've never produced a stationary constant spell effect before (webs are a conjuration; they create a spray of web matter which lasts until it decays back into the aether, whereas this spell creates fire and then keeps creating it for the duration of concentration in a set pattern). The 'ambitious' modifier represents the fact that you have a new spell base for future magic having researched that (stationary continuous effects).
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 25, 2017, 05:52:19 pm
Post by: Iituem on March 25, 2017, 06:28:36 pm
Evocation - channelling energy (fire) [Fireballs, Wall of Flame]
Evocation - propel channelled energy [Fireballs]
Evocation - sustain channelled energy [Wall of Flame]
Metamagic - stabilise spell in structured form [Wall of Flame]
Conjuration - create/summon matter (simple substances) [Obscuring Cloud, Crystal Lance, Web]
Conjuration - form created matter into shape [Crystal Lance, Web]
Conjuration - copy entities (simple entities) [Summon Swarm, Fire Wasps]
Conjuration - splice copied elements (dodgy, but simple options) [Fire Wasps]
I'll do a similar list for Moskurg over in their thread.
Post by: OceanSoul on March 25, 2017, 06:50:54 pm
Post by: Iituem on March 25, 2017, 06:53:16 pm
Post by: Roboson on March 25, 2017, 07:17:08 pm
Post by: RAM on March 25, 2017, 07:23:05 pm
Proposals for next round)I am not yet voting for any of these):
Spell of magic crystallisation: Create a tiny crystal out of magic or grow such a crystal to make it larger. These crystals can then be broken down to feed other magic. Essentially allowing our wizards to store up magic during downtime to extend their activities the rest of the time.
Should be a pretty big deal at first, granting us extra power for what we are doing, but might have a downside in that it would mean our casters would often have a combat-useless(Unless it can absorb hostile magic too) spell prepared and be in a magically drained state until they crack open their crystal. So could cost us in enemy ambushes but the extra magic in battles should be a huge boon.
As for future prospects, they are crazy-huge. We could make wands to let civilians and off-duty wizards contribute magic to the front-lines. Probably something like a slot machine, you put your hands on it and watch the pretty lights dance across the magical channels as a crystal slowly grows in a bowl(To keep complexity down they might need to have a seed crystal first, ideally any idiot would be able to use the things.) then they take their crystal to the counter and get paid for their contribution...
Then we develop "wands" that use these crystals instead of needing a proper wizard. We can outfit out mundane soldiers with spells in that case. Arrow summoning bows, self-repairing armour,
Another option is to find ways to use extra magic to enhance spells. If we could burn a crystal to make our fog ignore their lesser spells, or turn a fireball into a firesea, or summon the same number of wasps but instead of a few burns a few of them together can melt through metal...
Copy the wind spell: Counter it directly, aid our ships, and gain an element. Having seen it in action should help us develop a copy?
Military academy: Train our thanes and their bodyguards to have consistent expectations and communication. Provide teaching from experienced veterans. Test the lot of them for magical aptitude, and, perhaps most importantly, teach them how to train their followers. Make sure that the whole army meets minimum standards of marching speed, battlefield endurance, responses to cavalry charges and arrow bombardment, knowledge of why running from cavalry is an extremely bad idea... Also they should check their followers for magical aptitude and send them for further evaluation. We can then revise this academy to have a magical faculty to improve training of magicians and to add a magical element to the curriculum so that all squads know a little about magic and can perform extremely basic spells.
At present I expect that we are just relying upon everyone to train themselves. They have good intentions, bless them, but a certain degree of heartless methodical analysis and conformity can work mundane miracles...
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on March 25, 2017, 07:34:32 pm
Also since we now have that Metamagic, could we use that to make our lances last longer?
edit: Scholar not squire
Post by: RAM on March 25, 2017, 08:08:17 pm
Recommend shooting arrows at horses. They are a big, expensive target with little armour and enemy mobility is playing merry havoc, especially against our slowpokes in metal boxes. One arrow per horse too, in theory. A sick horse can still eat, takes up a spot in the stables, and might die later, possibly after contracting something contagious even! And minor blood-loss and pain plays merry havoc with your endurance...
Post by: VoidSlayer on March 26, 2017, 01:05:06 am
Making houses out of nothing would also probably impress the scholar in the utility of our magic.
Wall of Fog: Similar to the fire wall spell, this is sustained by an apprentice to constantly renew/re-summon the fog, even if it is blown away by winds.
Summon Iceberg: Summons an island of sharp ice in front of enemy ships.
Summon Stone Wall: Permanently summons blocks of stones in various shapes and sizes which can be interlocked to rapidly build walls or other fortifications.
Magic Arrows: Crystal arrows summoned for our longbowmen, last only 10 minutes once cast but are sharp and shaped correctly to allow maximum range.
Fire Traps: Minor Fireballs trapped in a rune that once broken explode on whatever broke the circle.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 26, 2017, 01:24:44 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on March 26, 2017, 01:31:30 am
We can probably make new spells that do more directly what we want.
We should see how effective the wall of fire and plate armor are though first.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 26, 2017, 01:33:23 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 26, 2017, 02:59:48 am
In the distance, the sails of the Moskurgian vessels were visible now, closing fast with the Artotskan fleet. Oars splashed as the large ungainly vessels turned to close, hoping to charge and board the enemy. The Moskurgians, as was their nature, would simply try run away to unleash volley after volley of arrow fire. Those withering volleys would be ineffective now, the plate in which the warriors and even the rowers were clad could not be pierced by bow.
From beneath the bow, a grumbling voice spoke up. "Remind me again, why am I hanging down here?" Indeed, tied securely in front if the bow as if he were a living figurehead was an Arztotskan wizard, grumbling about his wet wuzard clothes. The reply was short, "because, you doofus, our ships are made of wood too. Anyway, the time is near.".
From both edges of the Arztotskan formation a wall of steam erupted, rushing of into the sea towards the Moskurgian fleet. They passed the fleet on the let and the right, before crossing behind the enemy lines. The Moskurgians responded with a series of wind blasts, pushing aside the steam and checking if any forces tried to hide behind it. As expected, they failed to realize the mist was the real threat. For now however, they turned to face the advancing Arztotskan fleet and opened fire.
The Moskurgians, once they spend their ammunition fruitlessly, made to retreat. Sailing from the Artotzkan line, they set course back the way they came, aiming to sail through the steam to safety. As the first ship crossed the line, the spell made it's true power known. Magical energies, having futily tried to set water aflame for so long, suddenly found a much more willing target. The wood of the hull burst into flame, the sails following moments after. A few more ships shared the first ones fate, but by then the Moskurgians succeeded in turning the ships. At last, the captains rejoiced. This would be a proper battlr.
Post by: Iituem on March 26, 2017, 10:51:49 am
In the early months of 915 a comet was sighted over Arstotzka. Shortly thereafter a rock crashed to earth near the capital city, leaving a crater in the shape of the Foe Axe, a weapon supposedly held by one of their gods. A religious fervour comes over the nation and whilst it is spent by the end of the year, 915 sees Arstotzkans fight with renewed and deadly vigour.
Storms cover the whole of the mountains throughout the year, heavy rain causing the ground to run and strong winds sending arrows flying unpredictably. Despite narrow contest between the two armies, Arstotzka finally manages to rout the last of Moskurg's positions in the foothills, ending conflict in the mountains. Two whole Moskurger armies are captured and selectively ransomed or, when ransoms are not forthcoming, executed.
The Arstotzkan invasion of the desert has begun.
Hurricanes plague the jungle, with driving monsoons and flooding of large sections of the soft ground. Many heavier troops get bogged in the ground and the going is tough and brutal. Despite, once again, a slight advantage to Moskurg, Arstotzka completely overruns the jungle, heavily armoured troops taking back position after position until the jungle is once again split evenly between Moskurg and Arstotzka. All Moskurger armies in the jungle are put to the sword.
Plate armour is winning the day for us here. With most of our troops equipped with the new armour, we have an advantage in every form of combat. Further inspired by the comet, our people have proved an unstoppable force.
The storms continue on to the plains, heavy rainfall turning the open fields to slick mud. Garbed in full plate, the heavy infantry of Arstotzka march out to battle and strike blow after blow against the Moskurger defenders. They unveil another weapon, as their wizards conjure forth long walls of flame to guard their positions against the enemy and to force Moskurger troops in main battle to move as they direct, creating choke points to their advantage. The plains are Moskurg's one position of strength, and once again that strength is marginal by comparison. However, Moskurg is able to secure their position and then push out past the last border forts into the taiga itself.
Moskurg has control of the plains.
Spoiler: The Duel of Myark and al-Mutriqa (click to show/hide)
Out armour and firewalls have levelled the playing fields, but here in the plains fortune was not on our side. Terrible storms plagued us throughout the year, making the terrain difficult and arrow fire unpredictable, with Moskurg seemingly less affected.
Combat at sea is a constant back and forth with no real territorial gains on the coast. Both sides lose ships, but Moskurgers really lose out where Arstotzka gets its lost sailors back due to ransoms and Moskurger chivalry.
Any armies we lost during this year were returned due to chivalry and ransoms.
Revision Credit: [3+1 vs 3+3] Jibril Saadiya has been treated to the wonders of both nations and their capitals, and enjoyed a luxury of culture, erudition and entertainment. In the end, despite the tall towers, the universities, races and wonders of Moskurg, he chooses Arstotzka because they prove to have marginally more religious tolerance, and it turns out that he left his old country due to some frankly heretical beliefs that wouldn't have sat well with the priesthood back in Moskurg. The Arstotzkan priests aren't happy about him either, but they have less power to act on that, and so he joins the Arstotzkans and contributes his great knowledge and ability to their research team.
Arstotzka has gained the revision credit for this turn.
Spoiler: Moskurg (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzka (click to show/hide)
It is 916, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 916 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on March 26, 2017, 11:24:26 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 26, 2017, 11:27:54 am
Incidentally, the Moskurgian insistence on the value of mud makes me think they may be responsible. That may be an issue. Moskurgians having weather control could be problematic.
Anyway, the biggest loss for Moskurg isn't terrain, it's troops. They just lost at least 4 units of troops, while we lost none. That means they're 1 down while we're up 3.
@Iituem. Where did the King place our reinforcements?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 26, 2017, 11:41:55 am
Major Fireball
The Fireball spell learned from the Wand, now stronger and better than ever. Still requires lengthy preparation time, but the blistering heat has instead been channeled into the soil, where it can reside harmlessly. Hopefully, making this spell available to our senior wizards will aid against myark's temporary loss.
Wand of Flame Eternal
A wand imbued with the energies of fire, allowing it's user to cast more and easier fireball spells.
Rapid Galley
A boat designed for war, with a big bronze ram in front. These should clear the path for our other forces.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Iituem on March 26, 2017, 11:44:58 am
Additionally, you have now reached the maximum army strength possible, based off number of controlled territories.
Post by: Roboson on March 26, 2017, 11:49:14 am
Post by: OceanSoul on March 26, 2017, 11:57:35 am
Maybe someone should research real-life weather mechanics and how a warm front can affect a storm.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 26, 2017, 12:31:33 pm
Anyway, here's a cold spell.
Forever Frost
This channeled frost spell drains the heat from the air, dropping temperatures well below freezing in minutes.
On a side note, we're fighting in the desert now. Usually, the desert is hot, but at night, it's very cold. We could go for night vision and fight mostly at night, when we'll have an advantage.
Post by: Roboson on March 26, 2017, 12:46:43 pm
Make It Really Cold
This channeled frost spell drains the heat from the air, dropping temperatures well below freezing in minutes.
+1
Post by: OceanSoul on March 26, 2017, 12:52:08 pm
If we do this, try and make the drained heat able to fuel fire spells.
Make It Really Cold
This channeled frost spell drains the heat from the air, dropping temperatures well below freezing in minutes.
+1
Post by: Roboson on March 26, 2017, 01:02:03 pm
Crystal caltraps is another good option for countering their horses.
Also, using the pipe idea (casting lances in metal and then they dissipate leaving holes in the metal) we can make fireball powered cannons. All we do is load the pipe cannon with grapeshot (or cannon balls) and have our wizards shoot fire into it, propelling the ammo at the enemy.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on March 26, 2017, 04:14:56 pm
+1 I'll support this.If we do this, try and make the drained heat able to fuel fire spells.
Make It Really Cold
This channeled frost spell drains the heat from the air, dropping temperatures well below freezing in minutes.
+1
Post by: Iituem on March 26, 2017, 07:38:12 pm
Apart from the astounding cost and complete lack of mobility (it takes a week to disassemble and reassemble the tower) the biggest cost of the tower is that it ties up skilled mages, forcing them to remain wherever the tower is placed. Therefore, whilst the tower does grant you a terrain advantage wherever it is placed (or negate a Moskurger advantage) it weakens your offensive capabilities because less mages can leave the tower's side (they are still perfectly able to contribute to defence). A National Effort.
[This is what I would term a Master level spell; bonuses to every phase of combat, with a corresponding expense and likelihood of drawbacks.]
Post by: RAM on March 26, 2017, 07:58:15 pm
Revise longships into ice-breakers. You know where the new ice spell belongs...
Post by: Roboson on March 26, 2017, 09:13:55 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on March 26, 2017, 09:19:52 pm
Post by: Roboson on March 26, 2017, 09:23:57 pm
Post by: RAM on March 26, 2017, 09:33:49 pm
I'm down with making lances useable. I'd try and focus on durability and longevity.I am not convinced that the lances are that good even if they work, but it seems like a good way to improve our conjuration ability with these crystalline structures.
Post by: Roboson on March 26, 2017, 10:22:17 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 26, 2017, 11:49:51 pm
Revise longships into ice-breakers. You know where the new ice spell belongs...
In the Jungle or desert, I think.
Anyway, the spell requires a master wizard, and our only master wizard is currently sick. So, it's pointless for now.
Revise the lances to be larger and actually usefull. (Researching new tech as a revision doesn't work)
Revise our big fireball spell to be cheaper
Post by: Roboson on March 26, 2017, 11:52:21 pm
Ninja'd... 10ebbor10 must be a Moskburger because he's a mind reader....
Post by: RAM on March 27, 2017, 12:59:52 am
I agree, that was pretty much a joke. But still, if we could freeze the water it would block the enemy ships and our fire could cut through it. If they abandon their ships then we just shoot the ice and they all fall in and freeze. I personally think freezing the surface of the coastal waters is not going to happen, but it would be hilarious and massive if it did. Also, a ship revision would not be terrible.Revise longships into ice-breakers. You know where the new ice spell belongs...
In the Jungle or desert, I think.
Revise the lances to be larger and actually usefull. (Researching new tech as a revision doesn't work)I feel that improving the material is enhancing existing tech, or, perhaps, refining our usage of it. It is still just making crystal lances, just trying to play around with the formation process to make the crystals stronger. I am also tempted to ask for javelins instead but that would pretty much use up the whole revision.
Revise our big fireball spell to be cheaperI would rather revise our little fireball to be a wand, our apprentices don't have much to do right now. but +1, would help. Actually, our first wand will probably need to be a full design, we only have wand-to-spell unlocked, spell->wand is a mystery...
A reminder that I do not vote for my own suggestions. Everyone will be tempted to vote for their own thing, If nobody votes for their own thing then you get to see where all the backup-favourites converge.
Post by: Roboson on March 27, 2017, 09:32:10 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 27, 2017, 10:45:32 am
Make lances more durable... and make Forever Frost into a superweapon: all the absorbed heat is focused into a beam which can be directed at enemy troops.
Post by: andrea on March 27, 2017, 11:26:13 am
The only revision I could see to the spell is having it require less wizards so as to not have an attack malus.
But that is not a priority, fireballs and conjuration improvement(lances) seem a good idea.
Their wind control is quite annoying, next turn we might want to devise a direct counter.
By the way, reporting for duty as part of the design team! Long live arstotzka!
Post by: RAM on March 27, 2017, 04:46:22 pm
Post by: Iituem on March 27, 2017, 06:49:55 pm
Fireball: [3] You work on stripping down the complexity of the fireball ritual, enough that whilst it is still complex, stationary and needs a skilled wizard to pull off, it can now be cast by wizards other than Myark. Unfortunately the heat expulsion problems haven't quite been fixed, so it still causes injury to surrounding troops.
Post by: RAM on March 27, 2017, 07:04:55 pm
The upside is that elite bodyguards have excellent reactions.
Post by: Roboson on March 27, 2017, 07:17:59 pm
Post by: RAM on March 27, 2017, 08:13:30 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on March 27, 2017, 09:34:54 pm
Post by: OceanSoul on March 27, 2017, 09:45:17 pm
Thermal Guard: Somewhat slowly wards major differences in temperature across the area by spreading heat evenly over a period of time and warming/cooling the area to reach a moderate temperature.
It would be slow enough to not undo our fireballs, but it could provide heat and cold protection to our troops, the former being particularly useful when attacking their desert home. Plus, temperature differences between clouds and clear skies may be enough to weaken any weathery spells they have.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on March 27, 2017, 11:34:37 pm
Post by: andrea on March 28, 2017, 01:21:05 am
Post by: RAM on March 28, 2017, 01:30:38 am
Well, we are pretty good at summoning tubes, and making sustained fire, and if you put a fire inside a tube-with0only-0one-open-end and then put thetube in the water then you really need a warhead but otherwise... Ugh, I guess we will need firetraps to use as warheads...
I REALLY wanna upgrade out wand knowledge. Wands do not have to be sticks that shoot fire. A wand can be a gauntlet that summons spikes as it punches, or a shield that coats itself in crystal or a saddle that continuously maintains a summoned horse, or a bag that fills itself with hot air, or a suit of armour that can transform into a fire engine...
Post by: VoidSlayer on March 28, 2017, 01:32:17 am
Yes, I do rather like the summon brick thing, but it doesn't stack well with firewall. I mean, sure, fire to keep the melee at bay and battlements to obstruct their archers... But, well, okay, maybe that would be pretty good, but still... two walls...
Well, we are pretty good at summoning tubes, and making sustained fire, and if you put a fire inside a tube-with0only-0one-open-end and then put thetube in the water then you really need a warhead but otherwise... Ugh, I guess we will need firetraps to use as warheads...
I REALLY wanna upgrade out wand knowledge. Wands do not have to be sticks that shoot fire. A wand can be a gauntlet that summons spikes as it punches, or a shield that coats itself in crystal or a saddle that continuously maintains a summoned horse, or a bag that fills itself with hot air, or a suit of armour that can transform into a fire engine...
Or a boot that when you put it on snakes crawl out of it onto your leg!
Post by: RAM on March 28, 2017, 01:49:02 am
Post by: Roboson on March 28, 2017, 03:42:49 am
Or a latrine with a portal to the desert.
Ok, so what if we decide to use our next phase to create a portal that teleports shit from our latrines into the Moskurg capital. Oh wait, it would blend in with the rest of their city. Never mind...
Really though, next turn we will see what's what. I'm wary of their weather control, but I can't think of a way to stop it. We may want to work on making magic traps (which would work against their original detect ambush AND move us one step closer to
Post by: andrea on March 28, 2017, 07:09:11 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on March 28, 2017, 10:01:45 pm
Post by: Iituem on March 29, 2017, 11:15:26 am
The Moskurger attempted invasion of Arstotzka's taiga, much like the Arstotzkan invasion of Moskurg's desert, is a complete failure. Both sides have the armies they send into the respective territories completely rebuffed. Both the King of Arstotzka and the Sultan of Moskurg decide to pull forces back to their borders until they feel they have a strong enough advantage to push on with enough forces. The heat and wide open spaces of the desert strongly favour Moskurg, whilst the cold and dense forest of the taiga strongly favour Arstotzka. Neither can muster sufficient forces to try and push past those advantages for now.
Both sides have drawn back to the plains and mountains respectively. They will await an order from the design team before they make an advance into the enemy core territory.
The jungle proves indecisive. With the fanatic fervour of Arstotzka having died down since the prior year, Moskurg has a better showing, but although they seem to have a definite edge in skirmishes, Arstotzka proves themselves highly capable in full battle, with many of their wizards now launching fully-fledged fireballs that explode upon contact with troops, unlike the weaker cousins they have used up until now. Worse still, their knights charge into battle on horseback wielding lances constructed of some sort of glistening violet crystal that, unlike what one might expect, neither bend nor shatter upon impact. They are devastating, but during the battle, amidst the pouring rain, lightning strikes begin to fall down upon the Arstotzkan forces, more or less at random but with a bias towards more armoured troops. The melee would go in Arstotzka's favour but for Moskurg skirmishers thinning their forces before battle is joined. As it is, Moskurg gains a small amount of ground.
Combat at sea remains a stalemate, with coastal gains returning both seas to parity.
The armies we lost in the desert were returned by ransom and chivalry, though we lost some ships at sea. We have reinforced at sea and back in the mountains, with extra troops in the plains. We are back at full capacity.
It is 917, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 917 (click to show/hide)
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 29, 2017, 11:43:35 am
~~~
Wall of Spikes: This spell creates a low-to-the-ground wall of crystal spikes, oriented more in one direction than another. Cavalry charging at it will likely end up impaled.
Post by: andrea on March 29, 2017, 12:18:14 pm
edit: some ideas:
Protection from environment: This spell, cast on an object or person, stabilizes the weather in an area around the target wide enough to cover a squad. the area is roughly dome shaped and moves to follow the target of the spell. Inside the area of effect, temperature is kept at a comfortable 0°C and dissipates all harmful weather effects such as rain, lightning, wind.
Crystal armor This armor is of similar design to our plate armor, but is made of the same material of the crystal lances. It is made to be long lasting, strong and light, providing an improvement over our current armor. Most importantly, its lack of conductiveness deters lightning strikes (note: this more or less requires us to make the stuff is fairly complex shapes and make it last quite a lot. provides several benefits but big risk of failure, I htink)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 29, 2017, 01:17:53 pm
Quote
The melee would go in Arstotzka's favour but for Moskurg skirmishers thinning their forces before battle is joined.
I believe this is called a hint. We need to improve our skirmishing capabilities.
Wandering Mists A redesign of our old mist spell, this still relatively affordable instead allows for the mist to be continously channeled. The enemy can try to blow it away, but in doing so they'd only spread it and further reduce their vision.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 29, 2017, 01:20:59 pm
Crystal armor This armor is of similar design to our plate armor, but is made of the same material of the crystal lances. It is made to be long lasting, strong and light, providing an improvement over our current armor. Most importantly, its lack of conductiveness deters lightning strikes (note: this more or less requires us to make the stuff is fairly complex shapes and make it last quite a lot. provides several benefits but big risk of failure, I htink)Revisions:
Crystal Armor: By using a several hours-long ritual, we can create a suit of armor, similar in shape and design to the plate armor, but made of durable crystal instead. Though this has the drawback of being scarcer than plate armor, restricting it to our elites, it has the advantage of being more durable than plate armor and being less of a target for lightning.
~~~
Let's save that for the revision phase.QuoteThe melee would go in Arstotzka's favour but for Moskurg skirmishers thinning their forces before battle is joined.
I believe this is called a hint. We need to improve our skirmishing capabilities.
Wandering Mists A redesign of our old mist spell, this still relatively affordable instead allows for the mist to be continously channeled. The enemy can try to blow it away, but in doing so they'd only spread it and further reduce their vision.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 29, 2017, 01:34:10 pm
Given that we haven't done this fancy crystal stuff before, we're never going to get something better than what we already have.
Anyway, here's an idea.
Distance Channeling What if a wizard could cast a spell, not from where he was standing, but from a place closeby, safely behind enemy lines. Enemy forces, could suddenly think themselves, surrounded, as fireballs rain upon their flank. Shields become useless, as the fireball materializes within.
Or, I think we can afford this now;
The Arzotskan Academy for Adequate Apprenticeship : Basically, get formal education for our wizards, and increase the number we have.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on March 29, 2017, 02:59:01 pm
Post by: andrea on March 29, 2017, 03:05:41 pm
Both your proposal are very interesting. Distant channeling can have many useful uses...
But I am still very ocncerned about their growing weather control.
Post by: Roboson on March 29, 2017, 03:33:50 pm
Post by: RAM on March 29, 2017, 03:45:27 pm
The Arzotskan Academy for Adequate Apprenticeship : Basically, get formal education for our wizards, and increase the number we have.+1!!!
I never vote for my own ideas!
Military academy: Formal training for our soldiers and a way to drag our best soldiers kicking and screaming away from Valhalla...
I feel that permanent crystal should be possible...
Crystal horse: An animate crystal in the form of a horse to be ridden into battle. Has basically no will, so actions other than standing must be constantly directed by its rider and only lasts a couple of hours.
Crystal boar: A body of crystal that charges and gouges at anything that moves within its vision.
Resist magic enchantment: a magic cast upon a spell or object that directly opposes any hostile magic that directly influences that spell or object.(The lightning might be the result of a ridiculous understanding of complex friction interactions and not magical itself, same goes forthe wind, but it seems worth a shot...)
Magic storage crystal: Already described, a method of storing magic in a crystal for later use.
Post by: andrea on March 29, 2017, 03:47:26 pm
Resist magic enchantment: a magic cast upon a spell or object that directly opposes any hostile magic that directly influences that spell or object.(The lightning might be the result of a ridiculous understanding of complex friction interactions and not magical itself, same goes forthe wind, but it seems worth a shot...)
Personally, I bellieve that the lightning itself is not magical, but a consequence of summoned storms.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 29, 2017, 03:56:37 pm
But I am still very ocncerned about their growing weather control.
We could mess with them using our cold spell. Cool down the clouds, and you get a blizzard, not a lightning storm.
+1 to Wall of Spikes since the only other ideas I got are better suited to revisions.
Why though?
We have walls of fire. Spikes walls are pointless.
Post by: andrea on March 29, 2017, 04:10:41 pm
anyway, for the sake of not voting my own,
The Arzotskan Academy for Adequate Apprenticeship : Basically, get formal education for our wizards, and increase the number we have.+1
the wall of spike is not that useful. As I said and as ebbor reiterated, it does nothing that the wall of fire doesn't do already, except perhaps being cast faster. But we can revise that without spending a design.
caltrops are somewhat interesting, but I am not sure why they would bring more utility than a wall of spike? maybe cheaper?
Crystal animals seems extremely compelx
Post by: OceanSoul on March 29, 2017, 04:21:09 pm
Or how about just a Metal Pillar? Thin and tall, it would act as a lightning rod, redirecting the lightning off our forces.
Maybe, for the sea, a Pillar of Ice? Doesn't even need to be grounded; it can just float on the waves. Could be conjured through a ship to shatter it/cause holes, or in front of a ship for crash-ready icebergs.
Crystal Ninja: Not really, but..
Quote from: andrea
Crystal animals seems extremely complexWe could branch into this with animal spells, like Conjure Familiar or Conjure Vermin or something.
How about a Wasp Hive Pillar? Shorter, and reliably provides wasps for a more continual assault.
Post by: andrea on March 29, 2017, 04:27:28 pm
Post by: OceanSoul on March 29, 2017, 04:34:59 pm
Post by: andrea on March 29, 2017, 04:48:09 pm
well, lets see what theGM says.
Post by: RAM on March 29, 2017, 06:00:07 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on March 29, 2017, 07:00:54 pm
Magical Equipment:
Wand of Fireballs - Hurls fireballs at a distance, able to destroy whole squads at a time. A National Effort.
Tower of Forever Frost: An astoundingly expensive tower that has to be assembled in place and requires the skill of a master wizard to operate, as well as countless other skilled wizards. Creates a very powerful cold evocation and then channels it directly into the air, consistently lowering temperatures within a radius of about fifty miles. A National Effort.
Arstotzkan Elite Units:
Anti-Wizard Guard: Guard thanes against mind-readers and other threats by shooting them. Also partially negate spell support of other units.
Arstotzkan Spells:
Conjuration Spellbook
Obscuring Mist: Cloaks a squad in a fog cloud, hiding their numbers and equipment, and making them harder to hit at range.
Summon Swarm: Conjures a swarm of stinging wasps to harrass foes. Expensive.
Variant (Fire Wasps): Conjures stinging wasps that can start small fires. Expensive.
Magic Lance: Conjures a set of lances for a cavalry squad. Thick enough not to break on use, and lasts long enough to be useful in combat. Expensive.
Webs: Conjures a sticky web, immobilising an entire squad and preventing them from moving. Very Expensive.
Fireball: Hurls fireballs at a distance, able to destroy whole squads at a time. Damaging side effects harm morale. Very Expensive.
Minor Fireball: Hurls small balls of fire that explode on impact, not as devastating as full fireballs but much easier to cast. Expensive.
Firewall: Creates static walls of fire. Long casting time, concentration sustain. Very Expensive.
Edit: Please let me know if I missed something!
Post by: Roboson on March 29, 2017, 09:00:31 pm
Post by: RAM on March 29, 2017, 09:28:49 pm
Iguess they might be a threat to horse-archers, maybe, especially if we can summon them with crystal armour.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on March 29, 2017, 11:45:39 pm
Aside from chasing down routers. I don't see wolves being that effective against a full army. I guess the keggers are a bit more numbers rather that skill, so maybe, but still...No they would suck at fighting the actual army but as skrimishing options are something we are increasingly needing they aren't a bad idea.
Iguess they might be a threat to horse-archers, maybe, especially if we can summon them with crystal armour.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 30, 2017, 05:30:44 am
Post by: andrea on March 30, 2017, 05:41:34 am
edit: also, +1 on ebbor's order
Post by: OceanSoul on March 30, 2017, 05:58:31 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 30, 2017, 06:03:04 am
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on March 30, 2017, 06:55:59 am
+1 to jungle tower order
Post by: Roboson on March 30, 2017, 10:13:27 am
Maybe we can renew our efforts on traps.
edit: also, +1 on ebbor's order
We want to reopen the firetraps research?
Post by: evictedSaint on March 30, 2017, 10:22:24 am
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on March 30, 2017, 10:32:10 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 30, 2017, 10:34:00 am
That order is about deploying our Forever Frost spell. No one wants a ligthning rod.
Besides, assuming ordinary iron can attract magic lightning sems optimistic.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 30, 2017, 10:37:37 am
Wall of spikes : 2
The Arzotskan Academy for Adequate Apprenticeship : 3
Post by: andrea on March 30, 2017, 10:50:05 am
Besides, assuming ordinary iron can attract magic lightning sems optimistic.
I am still convinced that the lightning is magically generated, but not magical itself. But no way to know at the moment.
And no, nobody wants a spell to make a lightning rod.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on March 30, 2017, 10:52:32 am
Post by: evictedSaint on March 30, 2017, 11:42:59 am
Magic is clearly the way of the future, and Arstotzka's youth are the future. It only makes sense, then, to properly educate our young battlemages in the art of magic in a formal setting. The AAAA is a place of higher learning for those wishing to pursue the magical arts, instructing them in the ways of crystal conjuration and fire magicks, as well as other minor feats such as conjuring wasps and mists. The Academy is built as an off-shoot of the Royal Palace, a good distance away in case of any ill-effects of the burgeoning young wizards mis-fired spells. While the school does allow us to train apprentices in a more formal setting, the prestige and expense of the relatively new school means that not every would-be wizard can attend. Furthermore, the rate at which we go through apprentices on the battlefield means those that do attend only do so for a few months before being sent off to the front lines. Still, it's a step forward to creating a professional wizarding force. Very Expensive.
It is now the Revision Phase.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on March 30, 2017, 12:12:58 pm
Crystal Wasps: These wasps have crystal stingers that break off in what the wasps sting and last longer than the wasps themselves do. Basically an anti-mage weapon, designed to disrupt concentration.
Channeled Fog: Instead of casting a fog cloud once, this spell is continually cast to sustain a fog cloud and prevent it from being blown away.
Amplified Fireball: Use the extra heat in the fireball itself already!
Efficient Wasps: Work on making our wasp spells easier and quicker to cast.
I know we can only do one of these. Which do you think is best?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 30, 2017, 12:23:04 pm
Post by: andrea on March 30, 2017, 12:24:14 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 30, 2017, 12:25:35 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on March 30, 2017, 12:34:59 pm
Channelled fog
Could fog, or mist, help deflect or absorb the lighting as well?
If we made the Fog channeled, able to be controlled and resummoned by the apprentice and thicker so it dissipates some lighting it would be quite nice.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 30, 2017, 01:07:39 pm
Quote
Could fog, or mist, help deflect or absorb the lighting as well?Not really.
On the other hand, I have 2 other ideas.
Revise Forever Frost to be simpler
and
Revise Fire Walls to be faster to cast.
Post by: andrea on March 30, 2017, 01:24:31 pm
I have no idea what you mean with that.
as in, trying to find a way to make use of the academy like saying "now our apprentice units are better trained and can have more powerful spells and stuff". I am not sure the academy itself does much, but we will see this turn.
I vote
However, I would also make a proposal:
Minor wall of flame A wall of flame just big enough to deter horses from moving into it. The main goal of this spell is to be faster to cast than its bigger cousing, allowing rapid tactical use ( as in, breaking charges or blocking horse archers)
edit: Well, since YOU proposed it, I am going to vote for Firewall revision. If they are faster to cast, I believe they will be more effective in all phases of combat. Especially against cavalry.
Post by: Roboson on March 30, 2017, 01:38:16 pm
Post by: andrea on March 30, 2017, 02:07:33 pm
Forever and ever frost - 1
Quick firewall - 1
Post by: OceanSoul on March 30, 2017, 02:24:26 pm
Crystal Shrapnel Ball: A roughly spherical lump of crystal that bursts into many shards upon contact, leaving dangerously sharp shards within ground and newly deal bodies alike. Caution will be needed in crossing the shard-covered land, as to avoid cutting up your feet and risk bleed out and infections, allowing it to be used defensively even when no enemies are in sight.
Wasp Cloud: Summons/enchants wasps so that they can gather and act together as one mass, like a hive mind, or some sort of wasp golem. May need to be repeated to sustain swarm/add to its numbers, but it could a heavy, regenerating hitter on the front lines.
Summon Wool: summons a short pillow-sized bundle of wool. Can be used to provide comfort to our troops, raising morale, even from the back lines. Can branch out into a spell along the lines of Electric Ball, a ball of wool infused with static electricity, causing stunning on contact and possibly attracting the lightning they're aiming at us.
And, since we've got a good hold of Conjuration...
Research Banishment: Could be useful in several ways; We banish large components of their spells, such as the storms via Banish Storm, their mounted troops with Banish Horse, and so on. Perhaps we could banish the air around them, or maybe banish a ship. Bonus points if we later make a Conjure the Banished spell to turn their force against themselves.
Post by: andrea on March 30, 2017, 02:51:19 pm
I am entirely unconvinced about the rest of the proposals however.
Are you voting for anything?
Post by: OceanSoul on March 30, 2017, 02:53:13 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on March 30, 2017, 03:04:16 pm
...I'll say....+1 Fog
+1 to new fog spell, we need something simple for our apprentices to actually do.
Post by: andrea on March 30, 2017, 03:12:44 pm
Channeled fog - 3
Forever and ever frost - 1
Quick firewall - 1
Counter updated, for GM's sake
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on March 30, 2017, 07:23:22 pm
Post by: Roboson on March 30, 2017, 07:26:50 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on March 30, 2017, 11:49:35 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on March 31, 2017, 09:31:45 am
Rather than just casting a cloud of mist and moving it about at will, our Mages have learned how to continuously conjure the fog. This means the cloud will grow larger and larger the longer they stand still, and moving will leave a trail of fog. This leaves more ambiguity as to how many men are hidden in the mist, and natural wind can't dispell the fog quickly enough to leave the men uncovered. Only time will tell if the Moskurg's control of the weather will be enough to dispell our cover.
Combat Phase Later Tonight
Post by: evictedSaint on April 01, 2017, 12:33:31 am
Arstotzka easily maintains control of the Mountains.
The plains...however.
The plains are a different story.
Calvary, the heavy artillery of the medieval era, were once limited to minor nobles and knights. Restricted to critical battles and the relatively less-risky skirmishes that preceded them, most combats have consisted of boots on the ground slugging it out. This does not seem to be the case for Moskurg, however; their horses, seemingly only fit for travel and not combat, are...everywhere. Though lightly armored, entire divisions of the troops have crashed into our battle lines over and over again, snapping their shoddily made lances and lashing out with sword and spear. We fail to win a single battle here, let alone gain a territory. Those who aren't run down quickly surrender, and once relieved of their armor and weapons are immediately returned to us. Our own cavalry are much stronger than any Moskurg horseman, but even they can't win against a seething ocean of these overgrown rats. Fireballs blast holes in their ranks, but they're filled as soon as they appear. Horses leap through walls of flames, and though a few tumble from their saddles wreathed in fire the rest charge through our ranks like demons. If we do not do something to counter these new horsemen, we may very well see their hoof prints on Arstotzkan home soil.
Moskurg has maintained control of the plains.
Spoiler: The Duel of Myark and al-Mutriqa (click to show/hide)
The oceans are locked in stalemate, as usual. Though we turn the cowardly Moskurgs away more often than not, we can't press our advantage. Their ships flee too quickly, remaining frustratingly out of range. Both sides have some minor success, but no progress is made one way or anther.
The Seas remain deadlocked.
It is 917, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 916 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 01, 2017, 01:16:47 am
Any idea why we're losing in the Jungle?
We deployed a Tower of Frost and an improved mist spell, both of which should be very effective. Moskurg however deployed cavaly, which by all reasonable assumptions should not be effective.
Is their a spell we're missing, or something like that?
Anyway :
Razorsilk Webs :A combination of our webbing and crystal spell. Razorsilk is made from the classical magical webbing, but modified to carry tiny litlle hooks along it's length, and larger sharpened spearpoints within itself. Any cavalry unit thinking to charge through it will stumble and fall, and even infantry will have trouble too pass.
Post by: RAM on April 01, 2017, 02:52:42 am
We need to hold the jungle... What goes well in a jungle...
Combine summoning magic with crystal magic:
Crystal spiders:
A crystal construct imbued with the spirit of a spider. Standing about Knee-height to an average soldier, it uses its spear-legs to crawl across terrain and cling to most anything as soft as wood or thin enough to pierce. Using the spider's natural instinct to leap upon its prey and sting it grabs horse, soldier, or anything else not aligned with its summoner and injects the victim with raw flame from its glowing abdomen, before drawing back and seeking a new target.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 01, 2017, 11:33:12 am
Post by: evictedSaint on April 01, 2017, 11:45:36 am
Any idea why we're losing in the Jungle?
We deployed a Tower of Frost and an improved mist spell, both of which should be very effective. Moskurg however deployed cavaly, which by all reasonable assumptions should not be effective.
Only one National Effort may be deployed at a time. You made an Order to construct the Tower of Frost in the jungle, meaning your Wand of Fireballs couldn't be used by your hero (though lesser fireballs were still in effect). Your tower was made to counter their control of weather magic, but they've put multiple revisions into their control of the weather while you've put none into your tower. The same way their development of wind magic doesn't automatically counter your fireballs (even after a couple revisions) your tower won't absolutely counter all their weather control immediately after the initial design. Your apprentices can now use Cheap spells in Melee combat, but you have mostly Expensive and Very Expensive spells. The jungle applies penalties to mounted units, but that's overwhelmed by their sheer numbers.
I spent a long time trying to make sure the update was correct and balanced, but considering I'm taking over for Iituem (who himself admitted to making a mistake) I could very well error - especially since I had to teach myself his combat engine.
But if something seems unfair or doesn't make sense, please speak up!!! I do not want to be accused of favoritism : (
Post by: andrea on April 01, 2017, 12:12:21 pm
Post by: Azzuro on April 01, 2017, 12:16:02 pm
+1 to Razorsilk Webs, since my interpretation of the update is that we're having more trouble with their cavalry than we are with the jungle environment.
Also, evictedSaint, the army numbers are still being tracked right? Could you include that in the update (our reinforcements, and if we manage to fill our losses or not)?
Post by: evictedSaint on April 01, 2017, 12:36:58 pm
Both sides are once again at full troops - both due to Moskurg chivalry, and Arstotzkan pragmatism. Most casualties occurred in the jungle, followed by the mountains, but neither side was able to successfully route well enough to secure unrecoupable losses for the other. The King has evenly distributed troops across the map, except for the jungle where the largest faction of our army now sits.
Post by: OceanSoul on April 01, 2017, 01:21:15 pm
Conjure Horses: Summons horses from a nearby location of the caster's choosing to the caster. With this, we can deplete their supply of horses from right under their noses...literally!
Banishment Theory: A reversal of our conjuration, we learn how to send miscellaneous objects far away. Well-rounded uses, potentially banishing ships, horses, other mages, etc., but would do best with a turn of setup before making it into spells.
Spiked Ground: A modification of out pillar-summoning, metal spikes are conjured out of the ground. Mages can work together to spread the area of effect wider. Can impale and impede their cavalry units, even scaring their horses.
Can anyone think of anything to prevent them from getting horses in the first place, rather than just making their horses less effective? You know, treating the cause and not the symptom?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 01, 2017, 01:44:18 pm
Hmm...They must have used magic to get so many horses all of a sudden. If they mundanely obtained them all, it would've had to've been quite a while ago to get the supply set up, and it would've been more of a trickle.
We got to instantly deploy all our armor too. It's just part of the game.
Conjure Horses: Summons horses from a nearby location of the caster's choosing to the caster. With this, we can deplete their supply of horses from right under their noses...literally!
Conjuration is not a teleport spell.
Quote
Banishment Theory: A reversal of our conjuration, we learn how to send miscellaneous objects far away. Well-rounded uses, potentially banishing ships, horses, other mages, etc., but would do best with a turn of setup before making it into spells.Conjuration is not a teleport spell.
Quote
Spiked Ground: A modification of out pillar-summoning, metal spikes are conjured out of the ground. Mages can work together to spread the area of effect wider. Can impale and impede their cavalry units, even scaring their horses.
I guess, but I'd rather upgrade our Firewalls to do the same thing. Horses don't like being on fire.
Quote
Can anyone think of anything to prevent them from getting horses in the first place, rather than just making their horses less effective? You know, treating the cause and not the symptom?
Honestly, they probably revised their horses to make them cheaper. Doubt it's even particularly hard, considering it's just a modification.
Quote
Your apprentices can now use Cheap spells in Melee combat
I am confused now. Does that mean they couldn't do anything before that. After all, cheap is the lowest expense level.
Anyway, considering we need a cheap spell so as to take sdvsntsges of our new apprentices.
Conjure Crystal Caltrop Small, tiny durable caltrops that can be summoned easily .
Post by: evictedSaint on April 01, 2017, 01:50:10 pm
QuoteYour apprentices can now use Cheap spells in Melee combat
I am confused now. Does that mean they couldn't do anything before that. After all, cheap is the lowest expense level.
Please forgive me, I'm just going off of the game mechanics I was given. From what I can tell, Apprentices can only use Cheap spells, and Wizards use Expensive and Very Expensive. Furthermore, they were only being used in skirmishes - I thought giving them Expensive spells after a month or two in the academy might be too powerful, so I allowed them to be used in melee's as well.
Post by: Roboson on April 01, 2017, 02:14:50 pm
Your tower was made to counter their control of weather magic, but they've put multiple revisions into their control of the weather while you've put none into your tower.
Hmmmm. This kind of bothers me. We made this tower to make things cold, them revising their weather spells doesn't change that. They didn't revise their weather spell to counter our tower (as we've yet to use it until this most recent combat phase), so it should still be effective. According to Iituems description of it, it works. That should at the very least give us the weather bonus buff and give the enemy the weather debuff. In all honesty, it should mess with their weather also simply because, as a best case scenario for them, they'd have to tug-of-war us for control over the weather. Worst case scenario it ruins all their weather because their weather spells aren't based on conjuration, but probably based on creating the right conditions for their phenomenon to happen. If thats the case, our frost tower should cancel out (at the very least) their lightning magic. Thundersnow storms are incredibly rare, and are basically a perfect storm scenario. They occur almost exclusively in the Great Lakes area of the US and Canada, and incredibly rarely in other places. So, from a meteorology standpoint, we've been jipped unless one of two things is happening:
1) Their magic is based on conjuration (like our spells, but not like their original schools) and they make a storm out of nothing but magic regardless of the conditions around them. I find this unlikely.
2) Their control over the weather is so strong that it can overcome a larges-scale, long standing, highly complex magical array that is considered a Master Level spell by Iituem.
Unless one of those two things is true, then we've been a bit shortchanged here.
+1 for crystal caltraps
Post by: evictedSaint on April 01, 2017, 02:18:30 pm
It wasn't cold enough to turn the rainstorm into a blizzard, but it did remove their temperature advantage.
Post by: Azzuro on April 01, 2017, 02:26:58 pm
Spiked Ground: A modification of out pillar-summoning, metal spikes are conjured out of the ground. Mages can work together to spread the area of effect wider. Can impale and impede their cavalry units, even scaring their horses.
I guess, but I'd rather upgrade our Firewalls to do the same thing. Horses don't like being on fire.
I believe their horses are already leaping through our firewalls with impunity, so I would think that the fear effect is gone. Caltrops sound good though, so I'm changing my vote to Conjure Crystal Caltrops instead of Razorsilk webs, noting that we're explicitly making this spell to be Cheap.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 01, 2017, 02:43:30 pm
I believe their horses are already leaping through our firewalls with impunity, so I would think that the fear effect is gone.
From what I can tell, the firewalls never provided a fear effect to begin with; they instead provided a solid defensive boost to your troops.
I would also like to add that I'm willing to step down if there's any question of bias; I promise I'm doing my best to remain impartial, but if it's a concern then I would rather the game go on hiatus than stay as the GM.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 01, 2017, 03:05:36 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 01, 2017, 05:10:55 pm
With their new training, our apprentices can now handle more spells than the basic Conjure Mist. With this in mind, we begin development of a spell purposefully designed to be easy to cast while still maintaining usefulness - ideally doing something to combat the Moskurg Calvary that swarms our lines like overgrown rats. Working diligently on some of the more basic principles of magic, our mages have developed a relatively simple spell that spawns dozens of randomly-shaped crystals at a time. Without relying on a uniform shape these crystals can be cast into being with minimal effort by our esteemed wizards. These caltrops are random, jagged needles of crystal glass that are nearly invisible at night, sharp enough to pierce the hoof of an unsuspecting horse...most of the time. They shatter into nonexistance after being stepped on, so troops moving through a single spot would be able to wear through the defenses. This by itself is not a major problem, since the goal was to disrupt formations of horsemen and make the enemy wary of charging our positions.
Unfortunately...despite our best efforts, crystal magic isn't something that a beginner can learn in the span of a month. Only the best students can master the art of crystal conjuration, and the rest fail to produce even the basic cylinders and spheres. Our mages think they can reduce the complexity of the spell by developing a "template" of sorts, allowing apprentices to cast the spell without a deeper understanding of the magic that powers it. Alternatively, more aggressive training of our future wizards could give them the skills they need to cast crystal magic. Either way, this spell will be restricted to our regular wizards until we can make the process easier. Expensive.
Post by: OceanSoul on April 01, 2017, 05:43:35 pm
Multicasting Techniques: Teaches our wizards how to deploy and handle multiple spells at close to the same time. While exhausted from one type of spell, they would be able to work on another, different spell. This will allow (at least some) of our wizarding forces to use 2 spells in the same year. The extra spell may be limited to a cheap spell, or maybe both spells would have to be inexpensive, and there MAY be a slight reduction in the effectiveness of one/both spells, but, unless we roll poorly, we won't get all of these problems at once, and we can increase our overall effectiveness.
As for this revision phase, we COULD work on improving our caltrops, but we could also..
Research Animal Conjuration: Learn how to conjure miscellaneous animals, allowing us to make better animal-summoning spells (as in, a bonus to rolls). Sharp fish to cut holes in enemy ships, spiders to weave crystal-shard-laced webs, talking, possibly camouflaging parrots to hear and steal the enemy's secrets, including their spells, etc.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 01, 2017, 05:45:41 pm
Research Animal Conjuration: Learn how to conjure miscellaneous animals, allowing us to make better animal-summoning spells (as in, a bonus to rolls). Sharp fish to cut holes in enemy ships, spiders to weave crystal-shard-laced webs, talking, possibly camouflaging parrots to hear and steal the enemy's secrets, including their spells, etc.
New tech in revisions gets massive penalties. Remember the mines?
Revision : Replace rare wood in our longbow with plentiful metal.
The enemy's forces are lightly armored, and their horses aren't armored at all. If we get more bows, wecan slaughter them before they get to our lines.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 01, 2017, 07:02:19 pm
Or what if we just revise our War Axes into some kind of half axe polearm like a Halberd. We basically have heavy infantry without a strong way to stop charging horsemen.
Post by: RAM on April 01, 2017, 07:49:05 pm
Post by: Azzuro on April 01, 2017, 09:20:16 pm
Revision:Crystal Spell Template By developing a set template for the crystals to be conjured and attempting to quantize as many aspects of the spell (distance, area, number of crystals) as possible, revise the spell to be castable by our apprentices.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 01, 2017, 10:08:27 pm
Well, that isn't ideal. We only have one Cheap spell right now (the mist), so we need to focus on getting another.+1 to this since the cloud kill spell would be better off as a design.
Revision:Crystal Spell Template By developing a set template for the crystals to be conjured and attempting to quantize as many aspects of the spell (distance, area, number of crystals) as possible, revise the spell to be castable by our apprentices.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 01, 2017, 10:19:40 pm
There's no question if bias, but people are slways going to complain when their Master plsn doesn't eork.
That and with the battle reports the other guys seem to hit home runs at every turn. I just chalk it up to luck.
I think I will design for here.
Post by: andrea on April 02, 2017, 07:54:37 am
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 02, 2017, 10:58:44 am
I guess we will have to do that template... this turn seems a bit of a failure, having to use both actions for a very simple spell. But at least future crystal stuff should be easier?Think about his now could theoretically make a storm that's nothing more then crystal shards.
and also why don't we just create a spell to make a hole? like seriously a 10 foot deep trench that's 6 feet across would destroy their cavalry. chirst we could even pile the dirt on our side to protect our men form archers and make it even hard for them to cross.
Post by: Azzuro on April 02, 2017, 11:03:39 am
I guess we will have to do that template... this turn seems a bit of a failure, having to use both actions for a very simple spell. But at least future crystal stuff should be easier?
Yeah, it's quite sad. But if you look at it another way, we're killing two birds with one stone: countering Moskberg's horse rush and getting another Cheap spell for our greater numbers of Apprentices to have greater flexibility (conceal or defend). Speaking of which, is the AAAA providing any bonuses for us? It isn't in the lists of stuff we have.
Post by: andrea on April 02, 2017, 11:05:39 am
regarding the hole spell, I think that if we still need to counter their cavalry after this turn, it would be best if we sticked to what we have and perfect it, rather than try to invent yet another system.
Post by: Azzuro on April 02, 2017, 11:43:24 am
From a quick retrospective, we're spending this whole turn reacting to Moskerg's introduction of widespread cavalry, which is a win for them because they're probably going to design something different in the upcoming turn, forcing us to react to that too ad infinitum. Note that Mossberg initially didn't have any weather magic at all (they started with Divination spellbook) and yet they went from making farts of wind to gales of wind to entire storms to calling down lightning on our plate-mail troops. In the process, they've pretty much abandoned further progress in Divination and mind-reading entirely. We need to be more like them and be unafraid to branch out, which should be easier for us as Conjuration is inherently about making new things.
While I don't think the hole spell is optimal (most people can jump over six feet with a running start, to say nothing of a horse), we should try exploring Conjuration further. Some ideas are:
-permanent conjurations, like the magic lances but improved. If successful, will be game-changing as we can have skilled mages producing them en masse in the capital, instead of as needed on the frontlines.
-bigger living things/animated constructs, such as the crystal spiders proposed earlier. Basically shifting our living conjurations from a harassment role to direct combat.
Post by: andrea on April 02, 2017, 12:14:00 pm
All I am syaing is, if next turn we still want something to counter horses, we should not get another new spell which will not work well enough the first turn, but we should instead improve the things we already developed with that specific purpose in mind ( caltrops, wall of fire.
SHould we instead try to take another road, all fine, design away. Personally, I would like to invest more heavily in crystals, especially since we had to do this template revision.
Post by: OceanSoul on April 02, 2017, 01:09:53 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 02, 2017, 01:35:13 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 02, 2017, 05:00:09 pm
It takes some doing, but you manage to convince your more advanced wizards to set aside some time to make a template for the more inexperienced members of their discipline. Thanks to the AAAA, they have the resources needed to make the spell simple enough for even the most dumbfound apprentice to use. By creating a standard method of conjuring the magical crystals, it becomes rather trivial to call upon a certain template and bring the shards into being.
As a side effect of this method-based casting, we've been able to understand exactly what about a spell results in the random, jagged spikes. The result is a rather complicated mathematical formula, but it can be applied to almost all basic shapes and designs to create another simple template for casting. Our understanding of crystal magic has increased, giving us a bonus to developing that line of magic further.
Combat Phase to begin shortly.
Post by: andrea on April 02, 2017, 05:32:22 pm
depending on the mechanics, this may be a net damage... although I could imagine a revision to our academy to negate the wizard time penalty ( professors, students and everyone else still needs things to do right? lets make study scroll scribing, possibly by making themscribe useful scrolls.
I am curious to see if it works well at all. We will probably need a revision for every spell we want to give to our apprentices, but it has some potential, especially since now our apprentices are better and can cast in the melee phase.
Still, I really wanted better crystal knowledge :(
Post by: evictedSaint on April 02, 2017, 05:38:30 pm
Please have a little faith that I'm not screwing you guys over, dude. :(
Post by: OceanSoul on April 02, 2017, 05:44:14 pm
-Make it more efficient to make scrolls, possibly so that non-mages could write simple scrolls.
-Make a slightly-modified fireball scroll so that it burns up the caster, then let the enemy take them. Will kill off their mages, but they could also learn scrollcraft for themselves.
-Find a way to seal an enemy's spell inside a scroll? (Very unlikely)
And that's it.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 02, 2017, 05:46:16 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 02, 2017, 06:07:43 pm
The Scrolls allow us to revise a spell as being castable at lower cost. However, any revision action can be used for that exact purpose. We did so for a long time, after all.
Scrolls thus seem completely redundant.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 02, 2017, 06:11:12 pm
If you guys would prefer, I can retcon it be a better understanding of crystal magic in addition to having a cheaper cost instead.
Post by: Azzuro on April 02, 2017, 06:25:23 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 02, 2017, 06:33:37 pm
So are the crystal caltrops Cheap now?
Yes - I am offering the choice between scroll magic or a better understanding of crystal magic. I realize scrolls don't seem that useful, so I'm offering the choice between the two.
EDIT: Well, it seems like it's two votes against scrolls and one for. I'll go ahead and erase that bit of magic knowledge and replace it with a better understanding of crystals.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 02, 2017, 07:04:46 pm
Guys.
Take the scrolls.
I can think of several ways to improve on it later, but with our apprentice school it means our skilled wizards can stay behind the lines as we revise all our spells to be cheaper for our many more apprentices to use. Or we can make a scroll-writing school/workshop where we teach apprentices to make very specific scrolls.
Or revise them so non-spellcasters can draw or even cast them, maybe with some kind of magic storage and control system.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 02, 2017, 07:25:50 pm
The mountains remain ours with with laughable ease. Enemy commanders only send a few forays into the stony heights before pulling back. Our troops sit high above, pelting them with arrows from the mist and driving them away time and time again. The only problem is their damnable storms and the lightning that comes with it - at one point a blast struck the company commander, frying both him and the guards around him. This seems like a fluke, though - if anything, their control of the storms has gotten worse! Our men reported seeing a foolish Moskurg wizard being struck by lightning from the very storm he helped conjure! This is no doubt good news for our men, and clearly cracks in their understanding of magic. Though things continue to remain unchanged in the mountains, at least the Moskurgs seem tired of marching up and down mountains every year.
Arstotzka maintains control of the Mountains.
The plains are not our forte, however. The enemy's highly maneuverable and plentiful calvary excel in the wide-open spaces. Thankfully, their skirmishes have become less effective - our caltrops keep our positions safe at night, and Moskurg calvary is wary of further assaults. Their defense of the plains has been as solid as ever, unfortunately. Caltrops are hard to use on the offense, and the coordinated assaults, precisely timed calvary charges, and a withering hail of arrows has kept us at bay for yet another year.
Thankfully, the Moskurgs seem content to sit in the plains rather than press further north into our homelands.
Moskurg maintains control of the plains.
The fighting in the jungle has ground to a halt. Even with Myark gone, combat has remained as viscious as ever. The Moskurgs have been failing skirmish after skirmish as their horses stumble during assaults - of every skirmish they attempted, only one was successful. Their assaults during the day suffer without the success of their nightly skirmishes, and they've been forced to retreat as our heavily armored Arstotzkans fight at full force.
Unfortunately, we don't have enough of an advantage to push back. Skirmishing has never been our strongest advantage, and here they uniformly result in failure. Our assaults are likewise unsuccessful, and we are forced to retreat rather than press further. Neither side manages to gain prisoners this year, as combat seems limited to probing assaults and failed nightly raids.
Neither side gains ground in the jungle.
An ill wind blows in from the sea - almost literally. For the first time at sea the wind seems to favor Moskurg forces - this isn't an end-all for us as we use rows for locomotion, but their increased speed and the ability to make the seas roil or calm at their command gives them a definite edge. We sink one of their fleets in the eastern sea in an ambush, but are unable to scoop out any sailors from the roiling seas. In the west two of our fleets are sunk as they struggle against the violent ocean, but once their hulls sink below the waves the sea grows calm once again. Our men are scooped out of the drink and returned to us, then promptly put aboard new ships and returned to the ocean. We've lost ground here, though - Moskurg has secured another section of coastline.
Moskurg gains territory in the Western Sea.
We've had few casualties this year - most of which came from the sea as the combat there increased in intensity. With our land forces still at full capacity, our King orders more boats constructed for naval combat.
It is 918, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 918 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Post by: RAM on April 02, 2017, 08:05:50 pm
Crystal fire wasps: Duplicate the fire wasp swarm spell but replace the conjured flesh bodies with crystal bodies. Also make them larger(especially the wings because crystal may be lighter than steel, but still...) but less numerous and with a higher activity rate for faster wings and more force. Like, fist-sized. Also imbue them with instincts to land when the wind is too strong for their steel-like wings and to take off again when there is a face nearby to sting or the ground is bad for some reason.
Crystal is as hard as steel and lighter. This should be a cheap foray into the world of crystal golems with the upside of being compatible with naval-warfare and horse-bothering.
Revision: Focused Forever Frost Extend the range by producing a wedge instead of a sphere. Focus it upon clouds to turn them from rain to snow. Focus it on enemies to give them the sniffles. Focus it upon our own supplies to make iced-cream...
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 03, 2017, 01:07:13 am
I can think of several ways to improve on it later, but with our apprentice school it means our skilled wizards can stay behind the lines as we revise all our spells to be cheaper for our many more apprentices to use. Or we can make a scroll-writing school/workshop where we teach apprentices to make very specific scrolls.We can revise spells to be cheaper without requiring wizardscrafting scrolls. Scrolls are literally less than useless. I'd like the idea of improved crystalic understanding (which is what we originally designed, more.
Design : Combat longboat. A smaller, cheaper version of our current combat longboat, intended for combat rather than just deploying troops. It's equipped with a steel ram (mountain metal bonus) and can quickly kill the enemy.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 03, 2017, 01:18:35 am
-Snip-We can revise spells to be cheaper without requiring wizards. Scrolls are literally less than useless. I'd like the idea of improved crystalic understanding (which is what we originally designed, more.
If you go back, I modified the revision roll to more accurately reflect what your goal was and removed your newfound ability to craft scrolls. Your nation now has an improved understanding of crystal magic and how it's formed. How you interpret that is up to you.
Post by: andrea on April 03, 2017, 01:41:27 am
Maybe start with a permanent axe to get the tech? Or go directly for boats, crystal boats would be great.
Evictedsaint, just to be clear: I don't think you are biased and favoring moskurg and definitely not implying so in any of my posts. I was just disappointed that we got something so different from our goal and of limited present utility(i know, you changed it now and made me an happy man)
On a related note, I found this year's combat report good and informative enough.
Edit: will write a proposal or 2 during lunch break.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 03, 2017, 01:49:49 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 03, 2017, 02:25:34 am
We can simply revise it, and then they have to deal with plate armoredknights bearing down upon them.
Post by: RAM on April 03, 2017, 03:41:39 am
Also I will -1 my proposal to remind the G.M. that I don't vote for my own stuff.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 03, 2017, 06:53:14 am
I hope to God whoever design autocorrect for my phone burns in hell like the Moskurgs.
Post by: RAM on April 03, 2017, 07:34:11 am
How about Crystal Long Axe: A permanent crystal version of our War Axe that has a longer spear-like handle, with a small spike at the top.+1
I hope to God whoever design autocorrect for my phone burns in hell like the Moskurgs.
Post by: Azzuro on April 03, 2017, 07:36:34 am
Since the Jungle seems to be stabilised for now, and Myark will return there next turn, I think we should push them back at sea first. Improving on ebbor's design:
Crystal Galley: A ship designed for combat, with little space for landing troops. Following the dishonourable Muskerg deployment of weatherwizards on the waves, the finest minds of Arstotzka have turned their crystal conjuration skills to the naval theatre. The Crystal Galley has a layer of crystal covering its entire outer hull, strengthening it in ramming combat and incidentally making it faster, as it is no longer subject to fouling. A battering ram, made of the now-plentiful steel from the Arstotzkan mountains is affixed upon its bow, and the captains are taught to use ramming tactics against enemy vessels. Our wizards will first focus every effort into making the conjured crystal truly permanent, thus not needing a wizard onboard to maintain the conjuration, before worrying about the thickness of the crystal armour.
(Just to be clear, I'm proposing crystal armor only, not an entire ship conjured out of crystal. Interior hull and rooms will still be wood, or whatever we were previously making them out of.)
Oh, I'm also not voting for my own design, so +1 to Crystal Long Axe.
Post by: andrea on April 03, 2017, 08:19:47 am
The boat is certainly more useful, since it turns our ships into ironclads, minus the weight (we even have fireballs to serve as guns). However, I am a bit worried about trying to get both this size and permanency in one go, so I'll vote for the
Crystal long axe which is also quite useful and allows us to focus on the permanency with higher chance of success. ( I can be convinced to vote for the boat however, RAM, if you want to try)
Anyway, even if we lose the sea now they will not get any bonus for one turn, and I believe that the Crystalclad longboat should be strong enough to take it back before then.
Depending on how thick we can make it, we can even freeze the sea and see their weak wood hulls crushed, while our resist. *evil laugh*. Well, maybe not.
Post by: RAM on April 03, 2017, 08:28:59 am
Post by: OceanSoul on April 03, 2017, 08:30:04 am
Growing Crystals: Crystals that can drain minerals off of materials such as soil wood, and miscellaneous living materials. They can be used to create self-sustaining spikes of crystal, and might be able to become a parasite-like growth on enemy battlements and, if we get lucky, crops and other resources. If they get troublesome for us, we can work on a spell to destroy them/prevent them from growing.
Post by: andrea on April 03, 2017, 08:34:12 am
And please lets refrain from uncontrollable weapons of mass destruction. We want to conquer the island, not turn it into the Command and conquer (tiberium series) hellscape.
Post by: OceanSoul on April 03, 2017, 08:39:27 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 03, 2017, 08:46:26 am
For the moment, it seems fine, but I do have a non-crystal idea.
Infernal Forge: Using conjured flames, we can generate much higher temperatures than standard forging methods in a much shorter period of time. This allows for faster smelting and metalworking, and perhaps allows access to otherwise unobtainable metals.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 03, 2017, 09:43:09 am
Quote
If we want a crystal boat, we should at least know if crystals float. If they don't, we'd have to revise them, probably.
Floating is not an issue. Crystal is lighter than steel, and steel boats exist. Well, not in this setting at this point, but the point remains.
Anyway, myark is hanging out in the Jungle, so I propose to move our wizard to the Plains.
Post by: andrea on April 03, 2017, 09:46:40 am
Post by: Azzuro on April 03, 2017, 10:01:45 am
I don't think size is an issue for the crystal boat. We rolled a 6 on further research into making crystal conjuration cheaper, to the point that our apprentices can scatter caltrops to their heart's content, to say nothing of higher-level spellcasters. If the crystal armour was designed as an Expensive or Very Expensive equipment (like our current boats), our learned wizards could do it with a good effort.
Post by: andrea on April 03, 2017, 12:33:55 pm
Crystal long age, permanent(or 24h+: andrea, Azzurro, RAM
Crystal fire wasps: -
Crystalclad galley: -
Infernal forge: -
Combat longboat: -
Post by: evictedSaint on April 03, 2017, 12:43:28 pm
Alright, we're starting to get the hang of this crystal stuff now! Using the mathematical formulas we developed while templating the Caltrops, our mages have been able to define the razor sharp edge of a crystal to a precision beyond anything our conventional manufacturers could hope to replicate. When crafted into a weapon, the result is a blade as fine as a razor blade, harder than steel, lighter than a feather.
It will hack through unarmored flesh with uncanny ease, but its light weight means it has difficulty against harder components - like the metal edge of a shield, or the scales of an officers armor. Additionally, we have some difficulty making the handle of the axe a smooth cylinder. The mathematical formula developed can be used for polygon-type crystal formations easily, but we haven't quite managed to include smooth, rounded shapes into it yet. The best we can do is an uncomfortable square-shaped handle wrapped in leather - over time, the edges wear through and the leather wrapping has to be replaced.
Still, it's a frighteningly effective weapon against Moskurg troops, who are largely unarmored. Expensive.
Post by: Azzuro on April 03, 2017, 01:00:40 pm
I kid, I kid. The most important question: these things are permanent, right? Torn between spending our revision to cheapen them or improve Forever Frost.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 03, 2017, 01:24:19 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 03, 2017, 01:28:39 pm
((Calculus! Limits, to be precise.))
Post by: andrea on April 03, 2017, 01:51:53 pm
although, is there anything else we need?
better fireballs so that we can have more effective ships?
improved wasps who can fly against the wind?
The forever frost revision could be a nice idea, although I am not entirely sure we should delve too much in a field in which they have so much advantage.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 03, 2017, 02:17:45 pm
Post by: andrea on April 03, 2017, 02:24:01 pm
Although, it is a strong hint to not build entirely crystal ships.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 03, 2017, 03:41:55 pm
My vote however is for
Greater Horse availability Revising our current horses to be more easily available. This should be a simple revision(lowering cost without adding features = Simple), and it will be highly effective against Moskurgians everywhere. Our cavalry is already better than theirs, even the numbers, and they will be devastated.
All our cavalry can be armored, many can be armed with swords, the rest with axes (Extremely good weapons against an unarmored enemy).
Order : Deploy Myark with the Fire staff out at sea. I want to see the enemy go up in flames.
Post by: RAM on April 03, 2017, 03:56:25 pm
Extend its range and power by limiting its angle. The intention being to extend the range to hit clouds based upon the theory that both snow and storms come from clouds and snow is colder. But do try to control its angle so that it can also be directed to the ground somewhat, although making snow fall should be effective at reducing the temperature of a region...
Permanent Pole-axe Production(-1)
Continuous Crystal Construction Construes Countless Creations Crafted Clear of Combat(read: Making crystal weapons away from the battlefield.). If we can get it to work then we can make those ships we wanted.
I do not see much value in horse spam. The horses are clearly their best unit unit, and have had many upgrades, so it works for them, somewhat, but also represent a weakness because all their stuff is horses now. It means that you can dump all your upgrades to that one unit, but the enemy can do the same against them.
P.S.
Magic Lances: [6] With just a little work you manage to solve the thickening problem, creating usable, light lances with the tensile strength of steel for your chargers. This will significantly increase your capability in melee. As a side-effect of Jibril Saadiya's experimentation with conjuring different materials you feel confident that you can now conjure, at least temporarily, pure forms of most simple materials in configurable shapes (currently based around cylinders or rods of varying thickness and length).I kind of assumed that we would not be having problems with cylinders and rods after this but it does specify "simple materials" so crystals may not be available evn though it was a crystal revision, or at least I think it was? The lances are where the crystals came from in the first place...
Post by: andrea on April 03, 2017, 04:04:38 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 03, 2017, 04:21:57 pm
Remember people, we have an ore bonus in the mountains. We don't need to use crystals for everything, we can have a metal or wooden shaft with crystals on top.Given this, I'll vote something else instead of smooth crystal.
~~~
Order : Deploy Myark with the Fire staff out at sea. I want to see the enemy go up in flames.+1. I'm convinced.
~~~
Permanent Pole-axe Production(-1)This I'll +1. Increase the duration of our crystal. Not necessarily permanent yet, but any significant increase would be good.
Continuous Crystal Construction Construes Countless Creations Crafted Clear of Combat. If we can get it to work then we can make those ships we wanted.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 03, 2017, 04:42:07 pm
Quote
-1. We need him more in the jungle.
Duels between Wizards are determined entirely by how the wider battle goes. They're not handled separatly. Sending Myark into the Jungle simply means that he'll be knocked out again, without any usefull effect whatsover.
If however we send him towards the sea, and do well enough there, we can deploy use our troop carrying sea vessels to attack the Jungle from the flanks, thus bypassing the issue. Point of the matter is, we can use Myark anywhere, as long as it's not the Jungle.
We could use it to attack the Moskurgians in the plains. We just made a pretty snazzy weapon, so we could take the plains back.
Quote
This I'll +1. Increase the duration of our crystal. Not necessarily permanent yet, but any significant increase would be good.
-1
Once again, I must note that researching new technology using revisions carries massive penalties. New technologies have to be done in design actions, not in revisions.
Please stop stabbing ourselves in the foot.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 03, 2017, 05:02:02 pm
That said, I see now why sending Myark to the sea makes sense. Action changed.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 03, 2017, 05:05:31 pm
Increasing duration is an improvement, not something entirely new.I somehow misread that action entirely. Should go and sleep, getting tired.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 03, 2017, 05:23:58 pm
Post by: Azzuro on April 03, 2017, 06:19:27 pm
Quote-1. We need him more in the jungle.
Duels between Wizards are determined entirely by how the wider battle goes. They're not handled separatly. Sending Myark into the Jungle simply means that he'll be knocked out again, without any usefull effect whatsover.
If however we send him towards the sea, and do well enough there, we can deploy use our troop carrying sea vessels to attack the Jungle from the flanks, thus bypassing the issue. Point of the matter is, we can use Myark anywhere, as long as it's not the Jungle.
We could use it to attack the Moskurgians in the plains. We just made a pretty snazzy weapon, so we could take the plains back.
I did not know that. +1 to sending Myark to the Western Sea.
Also +1 to Permanent Pole Axe Production. With an addendum, can't we just make the poleaxe handles out of wood or metal? They don't have to be entirely crystal, so would anyone like to try an Order to manufacture wood/metal non-magical poleaxe handles?
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 03, 2017, 08:32:01 pm
We should also probably make the material slightly heavier then balance the weapon in general, rather then making it ultra light.
Also did we forget to put a spear tip on the top...
Post by: andrea on April 04, 2017, 01:19:07 am
And please rewrite revision proposal... I like alliteration but it is barely readable.
Post by: Azzuro on April 04, 2017, 06:43:57 am
Revision:Permanent Longaxe Production
Arstotzkan mages focus their research efforts into making the Crystal Longaxe as long-lasting as possible, experimenting with a multitude of methods from carved runes to magically-denser crystals in an attempt to create truly permanent conjurations, or at least greatly improve the duration of the conjuration to times measured in months rather than in days. Meanwhile, an enterprising armourer casts a mould for the crystal longaxe template, allowing other armourers to create metal handles and hafts, which should allow the weapon greater weight and striking power.
So far votes are 3 for the above and 1 for greater horse availability. Also 3 for the Order to send Myark to the Sea
Post by: andrea on April 04, 2017, 07:17:41 am
(the short term goal. Long term is being able to do whatever we want with crystal)
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 04, 2017, 08:59:42 am
Post by: evictedSaint on April 04, 2017, 01:01:12 pm
As useful as they are, magical crystals don't like to exist in our world. Despite our best efforts, most pure crystal constructs dissolve into aether after a day without magical maintainance, which ultimately limits how many crystaline objects we can field.
After delving deeper into the mathematics behind it (it seems like a lot of crystal magic is dictated by math, actually) we've managed to come up with a tentative explination. Before a crystal dissolves, it's possible to witness a slight vibration. It seems to be shaking itself apart, but no vibrations can actually be felt. After considerable debate, the concensus is that the conjured crystal is actually desynchronizing from reality before falling apart.
It costs us quite a bit of money, but we think we've developed a way to counter this desynchronization. By anchoring the crystal to a gemstone when conjured, we can more firmly affix the magical construct to our world! The more pure the stone, the longer the crystal lasts before needing maintainance. We're not sure exactly what the relationship between the type of stone and the duration of the crystal is, but on average the spell lasts about a month and gives off a very noticable aura before dissolving.
The cost of the gemstone means only our officers get the new weapons, but at least now they last longer than a single day.
Post by: andrea on April 04, 2017, 01:06:04 pm
Anyway, we are not in a big hurry to fix this, 24 hours should be plenty for most applications.
evictedsaint! I accuse you of Bias! I notice you most often update moskurg thread before our! (mostly kidding. It is not in any way relevant)
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 04, 2017, 04:37:30 pm
Post by: andrea on April 04, 2017, 04:42:30 pm
It was a very productive failure, all in all.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 04, 2017, 05:02:58 pm
Post by: Azzuro on April 04, 2017, 06:16:40 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 04, 2017, 06:25:48 pm
It's pretty much an acceptable result. If the spell lasts a month and gives warning before it dissipates, that's still sufficient to make our possible crystal galleys combat-effective without necessarily needing a mage onboard.
All we need are giant diamonds.
Post by: RAM on April 04, 2017, 06:45:57 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 04, 2017, 06:49:48 pm
What we should do instead is artificially produce gemstones like modern manufacturers do, replacing the needed technology with magic.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 04, 2017, 06:50:32 pm
Arstotzka maintains control of the Mountains.
The plains are a disaster, as they'd been last year, and the year before, and the year before. Our men march forth in steel suits of armor, only for their calvary to crash into our lines with devastating effect. Even worse, our guards have grown complacent with the crystal caltrops that surround our encampments at night! More than once we've caught filthy Moskurgs lurking just outside our camps and raised the alarm. When questioned as to how they got so close without anyone noticing, the guardsmen standing watch are unable to answer. Clearly they were asleep at their posts, but after executing the first few offenders for dereliction of duty our commanders have had to stop - it seems to be a chronic problem with our men that no amount of discipline can fix. Complacency is a disease we must excise from our men, let future battles go just as poorly. Our soldiers are stronger and better equipped than Moskurg, but the desert snakes are such cowards that they'll retreat just before we can spring a trap, or charge when we're at our weakest. It's infuriating, and our Theatre Commander screams himself into a drunken rage each time we are forced to march back home. We lose one unit in the plains during a route, but they are returned to us as usual through Moskurg chivalry.
There is dissent talk among our men - they are frustrated with trying to take back the plains, and sick of losing so many with each failed push.
Moskurg maintains control of the plains.
The fighting in the jungle has slowly started to progress against us as well. Again, our men grow complacent and fail to notice when Moskurg ambushers creep into our camp at night - they instead doze off, or daydream. If anything, the screams of Moskurg ambushers who step on caltrops are better guards than our men. The battles during the day go just as poorly. When they can get close our officers hack through swaths of men with their crystal razor axes, but in the jungle that's difficult to do. We're pushed back bit by bit, until we're hanging onto the very edge of the jungle. Compound bows, storms, and bolts of lightning are hell in the dense foliage - and without Myark to make up the difference, we can only just hang on. Another year like this and we'll be pushed back out entirely. Fancy axes are great, but they don't do enough.
We capture several Moskurgs during one of their night raids, but lose more during the day. Trades and chivalry see us both replenished to full strength.
Neither side gains ground in the jungle.
Myark, ever the patriot, doesn't complain when he's sent to the seas to fight. His presence does much to embolden our men, and despite their control of the weather we manage to halt their progress. The seas are fought to a stalemate, and both sides lose a fleet in the bloody fighting.
Neither side makes coastal gains this year.
Things look bad - we got lucky this year. Had Moskurg committed more to the jungle, we would be building barricades on our home soil. Realizing the dire nature of the situation, the King has offered to dip into his private treasury to give us an extra Expense Credit this year.
It is 920, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 920 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 04, 2017, 07:01:03 pm
Time to get drastic.
~~~
Conjuration - splice copied elements (dodgy, but simple options) [Fire Wasps]Hmm...
~~~
Beastial Splicing: Using a ritual, we can now merge men with beasts, giving volunteers for this procedure animal traits. The strength of a bear! The speed of a wildcat! The nose of a wolf! All at the low low cost of some reasoning ability! They will never expect this!
~~~
More practically, Alarm Crystal: This spell spreads a fragile sheet of crystal over a large surface area. Stepping upon the crystal will easily lead to breaking. Loud breaking.
~~~
My final proposal is The Juggernaut: By searching our kingdom far and wide, we have found a prodigy in the field of war. Standing 6 ft 8 inches, this juggernaut of a man bears much larger axes and tougher steel armor than normal. He will readily lead the charge to eradicate the foul Moskurgers, giving our people a champion in the process.
~~~
I will remove my vote from all three of my proposals, as Azzuro and possibly RAM have previously done. For fairness' sake.
Post by: RAM on April 04, 2017, 07:28:07 pm
Hm. Conjured diamonds would disappear just like crystal, right?Yep, just conjure everything EXCEPT a diamond. The diamond will be drawn into the absence!
What we should do instead is artificially produce gemstones like modern manufacturers do, replacing the needed technology with magic.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 04, 2017, 07:53:02 pm
Fireball wand - Copy the existing fireball wand, allowing more wizards, maybe even every apprentice, to be equipped with the superior spell-effect.
Summon Forever Frost Tower - Creates a long lasting crystal version of the forever frost tower, reducing the expense with building and moving the tower.
Summon Dire wolves - Summon large wolves to kill people.
Summon Snakes - Summons lots of snakes, adapted to the desert or swamp, which have highly poisonous venom added from a different snake species.
Rain of Arrows - Summons sharp crystal arrows above the enemy shaped to fall like a volley of arrows.
Cloudkill - Toxic fog designed to be constantly maintained for controlled push directly into enemy formations, while easy for us to dismiss by ending maintenance.
Crystal Permanence - Find the cheapest gems that are still effective and find a way to mass import them to further reduce the cost of long lasting crystal structures.
Just some ideas.
Post by: OceanSoul on April 04, 2017, 08:12:13 pm
Crystoculture: The act of growing crystals. Modify the lasting-crystal gem technology to instead use the gems to grow the crystal naturally in our reality. It will take time for the crystals to grow, as well as nutrients of some sort, but if we can get some mages to shape the growing crystal, either as it's growing or after it's harvested, our production of crystal objects will begin to grow exponentially as 1 unit of growing crystal becomes 2, 4, 8, 32, 128, 512, 2048... It could even become the basis of a self-refortifying wall!
Post by: RAM on April 04, 2017, 10:39:27 pm
They should be especially effective in the forest where there is lots of stuff to manoeuvre around. Their fire powers should be focused enough not to start any forest fires. There should be precious little ability to apply wind in a jungle. I find it difficult to believe that the weariness spell will effect them so they can be used as guards if they can be maintained and dropping a spell is a lot more noticeable than falling asleep is... And, more importantly, it works at sea. I suspect that we should move our wizard because they can currently beat us at sea and would want our wizard out for a turn.
Military academy:-1
Add a military academy to our wizard academy. Train our soldiers to be more organised, attentive, maintained, coordinated... and to be resistant to mind effects... This would be a good site for future revisions to make certain troops more numerous or to incorporate some minor magical training or what have you...
Magic resistance:-1
An enchantment that can be applied to an object to stop magic from functioning within its influence. Put it on our guards' helmets to prevent the sleep spell from closing their eyes(medieval types shouldn't know what the brain does...) or being affected by magic lightning. We can put it on our boats to stop them being directly affected by magic(or on the enemy boats if we can get some range out of it and their buffs are a problem...). Or put it on a tree and all hide behind it while the next doom spell comes along.
Blunderbuster:-1 Take 1 thick crystal tube, 1 multiple caltrop summons, 1 fireball...
...
...
profit...
Living tree:-1 Summon a living tree to fight amongst its brethren.
Later, we can try to summon a whole forest with which to march onto the plains...
Trees float, right? Marines?
+1 bestial splicing Because porpoiseman may not be the hero we want, but is the hero that we need!
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 05, 2017, 01:07:20 am
Anti-Magic Charm : A small charm that prevents the use of any magic but itself near a person. This charm is not simple to create, target expense is very expensive. Therefore there should be just enough to protect our generals and a few guards.
Post by: andrea on April 05, 2017, 02:43:20 am
+1 anti magic charm
Although I am beginning to think they have too big an advantage by now... but we can try!
Post by: Andres on April 05, 2017, 03:34:29 am
Mind Fortification: A ritual spell that takes several hours to cast but has a duration of a full day. This spell is used to fortify the minds of a large number of troops from negative mental influence.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 05, 2017, 05:16:23 am
Post by: Andres on April 05, 2017, 06:00:22 am
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 05, 2017, 06:16:47 am
Honestly, crystal at all is a pointless thing, because we have the mountains bonus which gives us access to cheap metal, thus making crystal mostly redundant.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 05, 2017, 06:20:11 am
Going into new areas of magic is a good idea though.
+1 anti magic charm I guess
Post by: OceanSoul on April 05, 2017, 07:16:10 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 05, 2017, 08:58:27 am
If we could create something to bridge the gap between our magics and Anti-Magic Charm, however...
~~~
Counter Spell: A skilled mage of ours can cast a spell with an enemy mage from a distance... in all the wrong ways. It goes like this: if our mages can cast spells together, why not forcibly work our spell into an enemy spell to muck it up?
~~~
Now the question is, can they sense minds, or do they have to know where a mind is to read it?
~~~
Shaped Fog: A fog that we can manipulate the density and motion of. Can lead to creating shapes in the fog to act as decoys, or making it harder to blow the fog away by adapting it to the wind.
~~~
I'll -1 both of these, of course.
Post by: andrea on April 05, 2017, 09:00:00 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 05, 2017, 09:06:25 am
~~~
Cloudkill - Toxic fog designed to be constantly maintained for controlled push directly into enemy formations, while easy for us to dismiss by ending maintenance.This one, at least, is problematic because they have wind spells. -1. Odds are we'd get the fog back in our face before we could end it.
~~~
As I said earlier: time to get drastic. What ideas do you have that we can feasibly create based on what we already have that could turn the tide of battle?
Post by: andrea on April 05, 2017, 09:23:07 am
I agree on cloudkill, no toxic cloud against people who specialize in wind.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 05, 2017, 10:40:20 am
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 05, 2017, 10:59:50 am
Post by: Azzuro on April 05, 2017, 11:08:43 am
evictedSaint, Moskerg has gained in the western sea but that's still listed as Disputed, is there a territory counter hidden? Also what bonuses will they get if they manage to control the western sea?
Need to know this so we can decide if the Sea or Jungle is more important. Unless the Sea has some super-bonus, I would say we should still devote our efforts to the Jungle, so +1 for the Anti-Magic Charm.
I would say Moskurg has moved from slightly ahead to an almost insurmountable advantage in the past two turns. Once again we have to react to a new spell of theirs instead of a new one of our own, and their spells (naval weather support & sleep/distraction) are much more effective than ours (Crystal Caltrops and Poleaxes). This is because they're focusing on magic whereas we're focusing on equipment, admittedly better equipment, but still in this game apparently having a better armed army counts for absolutely nothing against magic.
I don't think their new spell is mindreading, or we would have seen actual loss of territory, as we did during the first few turns when we weren't able to counter it. It's probably a sleep spell, but limited in only being cast-able on enemies who aren't yet alarmed/alerted to your presence or something. So we have to counter it now before they revise it and start putting entire armies under.
Expanded fluff:
Design:Anti-Magic Charm In the course of our researches into crystal permanency, one of the apprentices raised the possibility that the crystals could be 'charged' with magical power occasionally to maintain them. This prodigy has now proposed that other spells, including hostile ones, could be the source of that maintaining magical power. After his work was summarily 'appropriated' by Academy staff and the authorship changed, the outstanding innovators of the AAAA have come up with the Anti-Magic Charm, a palm-sized crystal that gathers ambient magic in the vicinity to power its own conjuration, thus 'damping' all other spells in a small area around the wearer. While the intricate nature of the spells required to craft such a crystal are forecasted to make it Expensive, it should be self-sustaining if magic is constantly used around the wearer.
I'm voting for this because it helps us in all theatres. In line with that, I think we should use both our Revision and Expense credit on improving Forever Frost, to shift the weather control to our advantage, which again helps us in all theatres if we can get it down from A National Effort. Speaking of which, is our tower in the Jungle still up, or did it get destroyed and not rebuilt?
Post by: evictedSaint on April 05, 2017, 11:18:37 am
Your tower was destroyed. It would have been rebuilt once your Hero was back up and running, but you sent him to the sea so he used his Fireball wand instead.
Also, I told Moskurg this after they asked and I felt you should also be told:
Moskurg wont advance on the past the desert into the tangia unless they make the decision to advance there. If they do, then battles will occur in the in the tangia (where you have the advantage).
Similarly, Arstotzka wont push south past the mountains unless you make the call to advance.
Conceeding the plains allows you to dedicate those assault troops elsewhere.
Post by: Azzuro on April 05, 2017, 11:37:48 am
Just to be clear: conceding the mountains won't affect our defensive strength there if we do so? If that's the case that we should do so immediately, and dedicate the freed-up troops to the Jungle.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 05, 2017, 11:45:04 am
Post by: evictedSaint on April 05, 2017, 11:48:15 am
Post by: andrea on April 05, 2017, 11:54:26 am
Post by: Azzuro on April 05, 2017, 11:58:12 am
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 05, 2017, 12:36:19 pm
Edit: Thinking of using raw magma for combat with Earth aside another trick.
Otherwise either like Summon more animals or Counter magic of some form as mind reading is a bitch.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 05, 2017, 02:08:12 pm
Concede the Eastern Sea and the Plains, redirect all those forces to the Mountains and attack the plains.
By my calculations, that will allow us to outnumber 2 to 1. By deploying a frost tower, we take away the enemy advantage of the heat. With a production credit on horses, we'd have more than enough horses.
Post by: andrea on April 05, 2017, 02:33:47 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 05, 2017, 02:56:42 pm
Sea to "Land": With some modifications, the Forever Frost tower can be deployed in the sea... and turn the sea into solid ground, or rather, ice. They'll never expect this. We'll turn the sea into a land battle.
And I'll -1 that. For fairness.
Post by: andrea on April 05, 2017, 03:16:03 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 05, 2017, 03:16:53 pm
Post by: andrea on April 05, 2017, 03:28:32 pm
Selective freezing to destroy their fleets would work better
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 05, 2017, 04:43:33 pm
Post by: RAM on April 05, 2017, 05:24:35 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 05, 2017, 05:27:17 pm
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 05, 2017, 05:49:06 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 05, 2017, 06:08:43 pm
Post by: andrea on April 05, 2017, 06:21:54 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 05, 2017, 06:52:10 pm
+1 bestial splicing Because porpoiseman may not be the hero we want, but is the hero that we need!There's this, but nothing else I think.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 05, 2017, 08:16:47 pm
Post by: RAM on April 05, 2017, 08:29:52 pm
I think we should just try to solve the problem directly.
Anti-Magic Charm : A small charm that prevents the use of any magic but itself near a person. This charm is not simple to create, target expense is very expensive. Therefore there should be just enough to protect our generals and a few guards.
we can revise it later to improve, I suppose. Our recent experience in binding stuff to gems may help here....
+1 anti magic charm
Although I am beginning to think they have too big an advantage by now... but we can try!
I didn't want crystal axes, I wanted steel spears.
Going into new areas of magic is a good idea though.
+1 anti magic charm I guess
evictedSaint, Moskerg has gained in the western sea but that's still listed as Disputed, is there a territory counter hidden? Also what bonuses will they get if they manage to control the western sea?
Need to know this so we can decide if the Sea or Jungle is more important. Unless the Sea has some super-bonus, I would say we should still devote our efforts to the Jungle, so +1 for the Anti-Magic Charm.
I would say Moskurg has moved from slightly ahead to an almost insurmountable advantage in the past two turns. Once again we have to react to a new spell of theirs instead of a new one of our own, and their spells (naval weather support & sleep/distraction) are much more effective than ours (Crystal Caltrops and Poleaxes). This is because they're focusing on magic whereas we're focusing on equipment, admittedly better equipment, but still in this game apparently having a better armed army counts for absolutely nothing against magic.
I don't think their new spell is mindreading, or we would have seen actual loss of territory, as we did during the first few turns when we weren't able to counter it. It's probably a sleep spell, but limited in only being cast-able on enemies who aren't yet alarmed/alerted to your presence or something. So we have to counter it now before they revise it and start putting entire armies under.
Expanded fluff:
Design:Anti-Magic Charm In the course of our researches into crystal permanency, one of the apprentices raised the possibility that the crystals could be 'charged' with magical power occasionally to maintain them. This prodigy has now proposed that other spells, including hostile ones, could be the source of that maintaining magical power. After his work was summarily 'appropriated' by Academy staff and the authorship changed, the outstanding innovators of the AAAA have come up with the Anti-Magic Charm, a palm-sized crystal that gathers ambient magic in the vicinity to power its own conjuration, thus 'damping' all other spells in a small area around the wearer. While the intricate nature of the spells required to craft such a crystal are forecasted to make it Expensive, it should be self-sustaining if magic is constantly used around the wearer.
I'm voting for this because it helps us in all theatres. In line with that, I think we should use both our Revision and Expense credit on improving Forever Frost, to shift the weather control to our advantage, which again helps us in all theatres if we can get it down from A National Effort. Speaking of which, is our tower in the Jungle still up, or did it get destroyed and not rebuilt?
Post by: evictedSaint on April 05, 2017, 08:30:44 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 05, 2017, 09:04:41 pm
Well...this could have gone better.
Based on your recent success with anchoring crystals to our world with gemstones, your mages have surmised that there must be some link between the crystalline structure of real-world gems and the chaotic nature of magic. As a matter of fact, all of the equations you've come up with (some of which are getting incredibly complex) seem to suggest that's the case - thus emboldening you to attempt to use gemstones to try and capture magic from the surrounding space.
After they finished mopping up what was left of the apprentices, your mages have gone back to the drawing board.
First of all, it seems like only significantly pure crystalline structures (such as diamonds) are even capable of absorbing magical interference. That alone makes the attempt Very Expensive, and the King isn't very happy when you ask to pry the jewels from his crown. Second of all, the spell to encourage gems to soak in the magical essence from the air around it spawns an entirely new realm of algebra your mages refer to as "calculus" - it seems like an entirely useless concept outside of this specific case, but it does explain the drop-off in range the magical absorption goes through. And third of all, absorbing magic has a nasty tendency of making the gems...well, explode. They vibrate suddenly, violently, and without warning shatter into hundreds of fast-moving diamond particles that shred whoever happens to be wearing it. We...aren't exactly sure why.
On the bright side, it's a great way to make diamond powder! Very Expensive
Post by: OceanSoul on April 05, 2017, 09:27:41 pm
Crystal-fueled Antimagic Charm: Instead of relying on a gem, a summoned crystal acts as fuel for the effect, slowly deteriorating instead of disappearing all-at-once, consistently fueling the spell. Perhaps spells cast into the Area of Effect of the charm can vibrate out of existence like the crystals would when they expire.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 05, 2017, 10:12:07 pm
~~~
Improve Minor Fireball, making it easier to cast. We will spam it everywhere. Our main attack spell, ho!
Apply the Expense Credit to our Longships. We need to win the seas in order to reinforce our mainlands!
~~~
Anybody up for creating Ironclads next turn?
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 05, 2017, 10:35:31 pm
Yeah, that thing isn't going to help us right now. We need something larger-scale.+1 to all three of these ideas.
~~~
Improve Minor Fireball, making it easier to cast. We will spam it everywhere. Our main attack spell, ho!
Apply the Expense Credit to our Longships. We need to win the seas in order to reinforce our mainlands!
~~~
Anybody up for creating Ironclads next turn?
Post by: RAM on April 05, 2017, 11:00:44 pm
I have an idea for the modification:+1 Being able to nope their spells would help. Summoning crystals to use as focal points to extend the life of our summoned crystals may be silly(but "a wizard did it" refutes that...) but cystals and gems... share certain similarities... The tensile strength of the summoned crystals should brute-force their way through the explosion issue(gems are mad brittle yo) and we should already have the necessary technologies in the relevant fields. It should just be tweaking the structure of our crystals... Now, granted, with just a revision I would not expect the effected soldiers to be using summoned weapons or being obscured by fog or anything like that, but still a big blow to their targeted spell use.
Crystal-fueled Antimagic Charm: Instead of relying on a gem, a summoned crystal acts as fuel for the effect, slowly deteriorating instead of disappearing all-at-once, consistently fueling the spell. Perhaps spells cast into the Area of Effect of the charm can vibrate out of existence like the crystals would when they expire.
Are fireballs good in jungle?
Post by: OceanSoul on April 05, 2017, 11:14:05 pm
Are fireballs good in jungle?If you don't mind burning our army alongside the enemy. So yes, they'd be good for friendly fire. Unfriendly, if you prefer the literal sense.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 06, 2017, 01:08:02 am
Use the Expense Credit on our cavalry. They're better than those of Moskurg, so with the extra horses we can absolutely crush them.
Order : Concede the Eastern Sea (but not the Western one) and Plains. Concentrate all forces in the Mountain and assault the desert. Deploy the frost tower.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 06, 2017, 01:15:35 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 06, 2017, 01:16:53 am
The anti magic charms do not work, unless we want to turn their sleep spells into frag grenadines against our own guards.
Which is a reason to fix them, not abandon them.
Honestly, our early tendency to continiously abandon projects when they didn't work out is what got us in this mess in the first place.
Post by: andrea on April 06, 2017, 01:23:38 am
Crystal-fueled Antimagic Charm : +1+1, lets try sticking to a plan. If we manage to get a good roll on them, they will be powerful.
Use the Expense Credit on our cavalry. They're better than those of Moskurg, so with the extra horses we can absolutely crush them.
Order : Concede the Eastern Sea (but not the Western one) and Plains. Concentrate all forces in the Mountain and assault the desert. Deploy the frost tower.
Post by: Azzuro on April 06, 2017, 06:26:19 am
However, I would vote for Using the Expense Credit on Forever Frost. Right now, it and the wand of Fireballs are both at National Effort level. If we reduce its cost down to Very Expensive, we can deploy them everywhere, helping our war effort in all theatres. Right now cavalry only help us in the Plains and somewhat in the Jungle, and not at all upon the Sea.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 06, 2017, 06:55:39 am
However, I would vote for Using the Expense Credit on Forever Frost. Right now, it and the wand of Fireballs are both at National Effort level. If we reduce its cost down to Very Expensive, we can deploy them everywhere, helping our war effort in all theatres. Right now cavalry only help us in the Plains and somewhat in the Jungle, and not at all upon the Sea.
We already reverse engineered the Wand of Fireball at very expensive level. Our big fireball spell is the exact same thing, with only a minor morale drawback.
Besides that, Forever frost is not useful in all theathers. We can not use it at Sea, because it's a tower. We can't use it in the Mountains or Taiga, because it'll freeze everyone. We're not going to be attacking the plains, which leaves only the Jungle and Desert for usefull locations.
Cavalry will be usefull in both Jungle, Desert and Taiga, which is all the areas that matter.
Forever Frost: [5-1, 2-2, 4-2] This may be one of the most expensive and ambitious projects you have ever undertaken. Not only are you working on a fairly novel inversion of your existing fire evocation (getting rid of heat instead of creating it) you are scaling the project up as you have never before. Months of work produce a huge, unwieldy spell apparatus, essentially an astoundingly expensive tower that has to be assembled in place and requires the skill of a master wizard to operate, as well as countless other skilled wizards. The spell takes a good day to activate, but once done so it will run for weeks at a time provided it is tended to by skilled wizards and the enchantments continually refreshed. It essentially creates a very powerful cold evocation and then channels it directly into the air. It then consistently lowers temperatures within a radius of about fifty miles, essentially changing the weather for an entire region. Sweltering weather becomes calm and reasonable, temperate regions become frosty. You think it probably best to never try and activate the tower in your home taiga, lest you kill everybody you've ever known and sink Arstotzka into an eternal winter.
Apart from the astounding cost and complete lack of mobility (it takes a week to disassemble and reassemble the tower) the biggest cost of the tower is that it ties up skilled mages, forcing them to remain wherever the tower is placed. Therefore, whilst the tower does grant you a terrain advantage wherever it is placed (or negate a Moskurger advantage) it weakens your offensive capabilities because less mages can leave the tower's side (they are still perfectly able to contribute to defence). A National Effort.
[This is what I would term a Master level spell; bonuses to every phase of combat, with a corresponding expense and likelihood of drawbacks.]
Post by: andrea on April 06, 2017, 07:00:14 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 06, 2017, 07:00:50 am
Post by: OceanSoul on April 06, 2017, 07:11:56 am
Post by: Azzuro on April 06, 2017, 09:57:14 am
Quote
When they can get close our officers hack through swaths of men with their crystal razor axes, but in the jungle that's difficult to do. We're pushed back bit by bit, until we're hanging onto the very edge of the jungle. Compound bows, storms, and bolts of lightning are hell in the dense foliage - and without Myark to make up the difference, we can only just hang on. Another year like this and we'll be pushed back out entirely. Fancy axes are great, but they don't do enough.
From this, 'storms and bolts of lightning' are two of the three issues facing us that stem from Moskerg weather control. (Sidenote: shouldn't it be easier to close to melee range in the dense foliage than in the open, thus putting ranged combatants at a disadvantage compared to the plains? And how exactly is the lightning striking us, unless our men are taller than the trees?) Forever Frost will solve these two issues, and give us a combat advantage by turning the climate cold, which favours us northern folks.
However the main reason why I'm arguing for this is that we spent an entire design phase on Forever Frost, and so far used it all of one turn in the previous three. It may be throwing good money after bad, but I would like to see us at least keep up in the weather control arms race.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 06, 2017, 10:24:52 am
Quote
Forever Frost will solve these two issues, and give us a combat advantage by turning the climate cold, which favours us northern folks.
Except it won't.
We used forever frost in the Jungle before, and it accomplished nothing of note.
Let's remember, this was the description of the Moskurgian cavalry.
Quote
Calvary, the heavy artillery of the medieval era, were once limited to minor nobles and knights. Restricted to critical battles and the relatively less-risky skirmishes that preceded them, most combats have consisted of boots on the ground slugging it out. This does not seem to be the case for Moskurg, however; their horses, seemingly only fit for travel and not combat, are...everywhere. Though lightly armored, entire divisions of the troops have crashed into our battle lines over and over again, snapping their shoddily made lances and lashing out with sword and spear. We fail to win a single battle here, let alone gain a territory. Those who aren't run down quickly surrender, and once relieved of their armor and weapons are immediately returned to us. Our own cavalry are much stronger than any Moskurg horseman, but even they can't win against a seething ocean of these overgrown rats. Fireballs blast holes in their ranks, but they're filled as soon as they appear. Horses leap through walls of flames, and though a few tumble from their saddles wreathed in fire the rest charge through our ranks like demons. If we do not do something to counter these new horsemen, we may very well see their hoof prints on Arstotzkan home soil.
Enormously good and effective, despite their shitty quality.
We have better armor, better weaponry, and better horses for this kind of combat. We would crush the Moskurgians.
Meanwhile, this was what our frost tower did :
Quote
A bolt of lightning crashes down into the tower not a few feet from where Myark was standing. The explosion of super-heated plasma sends him and the stone bricks he was standing on off the side, and they all come crashing down into the foliage below. The sudden disruption of the delicate, carefully-drawn spell circles on the roof of the tower resulted in a second, much slower explosion. Were Myark still standing atop the tower he might have been able to prevent the cook-off of magical power slowly growing out of control, but without him there was little the wizards left could do. The top of the tower flashes briefly.
The explosion sends mortar, brick, and bodies sailing into everyone standing around the tower with an indiscriminate violence. Unfortunately, it was mostly Arstotzkan troops standing nearby. Plate armor absorbs a good portion of the debris, but with their hero wounded and most of their mages dead the troops have no option other than to retreat. Myark is hauled off the battlefield by one of the surviving squads, and they manage to abscond with him. He will live.
So, it did not stop the storm amd it did not stop the lightning. It's basically a piece of crap more harmfull to our own forces than to the enemy.
I'm open to redesigning it, to make it better and more usefull. But as it is now it's useless.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 06, 2017, 12:35:53 pm
+I'll agree with this and on our earlier lack of a proper plan and besides for all we know using the magic crystal to absorb magic might be the key to keeping them around. Then it's a revision to make our lances and longaxes do the same for a Elite Mage-Breaker unit.Crystal-fueled Antimagic Charm : +1+1, lets try sticking to a plan. If we manage to get a good roll on them, they will be powerful.
Use the Expense Credit on our cavalry. They're better than those of Moskurg, so with the extra horses we can absolutely crush them.
Order : Concede the Eastern Sea (but not the Western one) and Plains. Concentrate all forces in the Mountain and assault the desert. Deploy the frost tower.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 06, 2017, 12:54:26 pm
Lowering the expense of armor requires control of the mountains.
Lowering the expense of ships requires control of the jungle.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 06, 2017, 01:15:58 pm
Why change those rules mid-game, for no reason. It was never mentioned before. Why protect Moskurg like that?
We spend quite a lot of effort on our cavalry (making those spears was hard), and now you suddenly spring it on us that we can't improve them for no apparent reason?
For reference, the actual bonii :
Quote
With control of the mountains, you are now able to finally exploit them to their fullest, as was done in the days of glorious Arstotzka past. You will receive an effective Expense reduction for all primarily metallic mundane items you design in future, for as long as you retain control over this region.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 06, 2017, 01:21:55 pm
Moskurg will never get cheap, full-plate armor without the mines in the mountains. You can't get cheap, plentiful horses without the plains to raise them. And neither side will get cheap, plentiful ships without the wood from the jungles.
Otherwise there's no point to holding an entire territory if you can get those bonuses through regular design/revision processes. What's stopping Moskurg from designing cheap full-plate of their own this turn, if that's not the case?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 06, 2017, 01:26:02 pm
I quoted the actual post where he explained the bonusses. What Iituem did was give use a bonus on any expense rolls for stuff, thus making it easier for us to design cheap stuff. Basically, anything that used the bonus was 1 tier cheaper than what the rolls said it normally would be.
It was never a lock for designing new equipment.
Quote
Those three are powerful aspects of combat, and to lower them below Expensive requires the territory bonus.
Okay then. But then be fair and take away Moskurg's cheap bows. Without the Jungle they should not be able to cheapen wooden items, after all.
If that is your logic, be consistent.
Quote
Otherwise there's no point to holding an entire territory if you can get those bonuses through regular design/revision processes. What's stopping Moskurg from designing cheap full-plate of their own this turn, if that's not the case?
If Moskurg has expensive armor, they should be capable of using an expense credit too make it cheaper.
If they used their rolls, they should get what they roll for, but without the bonus that we got.
Territories should not lock people into strategies, especially if said restrictions are never revealed. They may give bonusses to certain restrictions, as was explained earlier.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 06, 2017, 01:34:22 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 06, 2017, 01:39:32 pm
Their shortbows started out cheap, and their turn spent Designing and Revising the compound bow increased the quality. Iituem essentially gave you an expense credit on all metal production for as long as you hold the mountains. Furthermore, he made it clear that utilizing the bonus requires a turn of modifying your production capabilities to handle the new cheap material. I interpret that as requiring the territory to gain that expense level - is that unreasonable?Yes.
There's no reason to assume that just because we can reduce cost with a territory bonus, that we can't use revisions or credits to do it, when we've been doing that continuously with other stuff.
And yes, if we can revise cheap things to be as good as complex things, then we should be able to revise complex things to be as cheap as cheap things. Otherwise you're giving a benefit to the group which started with the cheap stuff.
In fact, the plains never gave a bonus to horses.
In fact, Iituem specifically noted that having the plains give bonii to cavalry would be too powerfull.
If Moskurg can hold the plains, they will receive extra resupply and a reduction in expense for items or effects that rely on manpower in some way, due to the plentiful population on the plains. I may change that if it's too weak or too powerful, but the other options were too overpowered or nonsensical (research bonuses due to libraries were flat out overpowered, cavalry bonuses would probably help Moskurg too much versus if Arstotzka took the plains, double resupply was OP as well).
So, I highly doubt this was ever Iituem's system.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 06, 2017, 01:48:46 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 06, 2017, 02:12:19 pm
This honestly seems like a post-hoc rationalization to protect Moskurg's cavalry advantage.
Post by: Iituem on April 06, 2017, 02:17:37 pm
Regardless of my original intent on the nature of the territorial bonuses, Saint is GM now and therefore his decisions supercede earlier ones I may have made. Indeed, altering the nature of the terrain bonuses to essentially raise a maximum 'cap' on material usage is an excellent idea and in the spirit of the game. More importantly, it does not change what has come before; you only created plate once it became possible to do so with excessive metal. If Saint wants the same to apply to ships, that's their call, although my personal feeling is that a jungle restriction on wood should perhaps restrict high quality wood in ships (making powerful ships but less frequently) and making megaships of some sort. As ever, however, Saint has the call here.
Similarly, if Saint feels that they can balance a cavalry matierial restriction on the plains, they can feel free to do so. Probably this just means either nerfing the nature of the bonus or improving the bonus in the other territories. I won't give details away of the other thread, but from my observation they've done an excellent job of applying such a nerfed penalty without getting carried away in either direction (too weak or too strong).
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 06, 2017, 03:12:21 pm
Quote
More importantly, it does not change what has come before; you only created plate once it became possible to do so with excessive metal.
It does actually.
I would have argued against the cavalry lance-thing if I'd know cavalry would be a dead end for us by an arbitrary restriction that by all accounts appears to have been invented on the spot.
Changing rules after the fact with clear benefit for one of both parties is not good behaviour.
Post by: RAM on April 06, 2017, 09:24:58 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 06, 2017, 10:44:31 pm
It was a poor decision to impose it, and for that I apologize. I assure everyone that it wasn't an attempt to protect Moskurg, but instead a fumbling on my part as a GM. I hope you guys can forgive me for the mistake.
Territories will provide a bonus to solid -1 to the overall expense for newly researched techs that relate to them, as they did before.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 07, 2017, 10:10:48 am
Post by: andrea on April 07, 2017, 10:41:07 am
I believe expense on horses and attacking the desert win as well, but I can't read accurately the thread now.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 07, 2017, 12:03:17 pm
Excellent news!!! Thought we've had to go through pounds of diamonds to do it, we've managed to revise the spellwork that makes the charm explode into a violent cloud of crystal shards!
As it turns out, gemstones have a property known as their "resonance frequency" - essentially the critical vibration that causes a feedback loop in an object. By adjusting the absorption rate of the diamond, we can lower the input frequency to something less volitile. The magical energy still has to go somewhere, though, and as a result the gemstone grows unbearably hot in the presence of magic.
It's...a decent way to warn the wearer they're being casted on, but the high cost of the components means it's limited to the theatre commanders in the field.
What to spend the Expense Credit on?
Post by: andrea on April 07, 2017, 12:09:39 pm
Well. Rolls were against us. I am surprised we made a fair amount of progress in metamagic. Our failures are quite interesting. I only hope that we live enough to see them bear fruits. At least, we will have some warning against magic, plus extremely expensive grenades from the unrevised charms.
For expense, cavalry and attack desert?
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 07, 2017, 12:51:02 pm
Also if the gemstones are getting heated up we could actually use that to boost a fire spell like we planned with the Tower.
Post by: andrea on April 07, 2017, 02:34:11 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 07, 2017, 05:19:11 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 07, 2017, 05:22:09 pm
Post by: RAM on April 07, 2017, 06:05:48 pm
It would but we aren't in real need of that we basically need the equivalent of tank to deal with theirs.Just saying, crystal golems would be as hard as steel, and in spider-form would be pretty scary and have loads of redundency on their moving parts. Or Crystal Firewasp Golems to stick with what we know... Or gem-powered crystal
Post by: Andres on April 07, 2017, 06:20:37 pm
If we can't beat them on the plains, we certainly can't beat them in their home ground, the desert. Furthermore, advancing in the plains means they no longer benefit from it, whereas advancing in the desert doesn't do anything unless we take the entire thing.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 07, 2017, 07:23:50 pm
Post by: Andres on April 07, 2017, 07:39:07 pm
Thing is we have need attacking the plains already, attacking the desert we might force them to backpedal and overreact giving us the chance to take the jungle.This seems overly-optimistic and a bit unrealistic. It could happen, but they could also see that it'll take to long for us to accomplish anything meaningful with that invasion and double down on their jungle stuff.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 07, 2017, 08:09:27 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 08, 2017, 01:32:37 pm
Order: Concede the plains to the Moskurgs. Redirect troops to the desert.
Order: Concede the Eastern Seas. Redirect fleet to the Western Seas.
Order: Myark to continue pressing the Western Seas.
Anything else I'm missing before I do the combat phase?
Post by: evictedSaint on April 08, 2017, 03:31:57 pm
Post by: andrea on April 08, 2017, 03:40:17 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 08, 2017, 03:49:31 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 08, 2017, 04:49:51 pm
No battles occur in the mountains.
Likewise, the plains finally go a year without bloodshed. Moskurg forts dot the border that separate the plains from the tangia, but for once no arrows rain down from their parapets. The skies remain clear, and all storms that blow across the land are completely natural in nature.
No battles occur in the plains.
The relative quiet is made up for in the jungle. Both sides engage in viscous skirmishes, assaulting one another in the dark and rain. Our heavy calvary is now plentiful enough for frequent use. They aren't as agile as Moskurg horses, but when they hit they do so with devastating effect. Their effect isn't as pronounced in the jungle as they would be in the plains, but they do make a significant difference. We have a single successful skirmish, but Moskurg seems to have more luck at home as they are in the heat. Our sleeping guards issue hasn't been resolved, but during one skirmish the alarm is actually raised by our Theatre Commander as his Anti-Magic charm glows red-hot on the chain hanging from his neck. The Moskurg ambusers are ran off, and the Commander is treated for second degree burns on his chest. Commanders stop wearing the expensive diamonds and instead hang them from the pommels of their swords, where they're less likely to burn the living shit out of themselves. None of them seem happy about the dangerous devices, but they begrudgingly admit the warning was appreciated. One even comments, "At least the damn things don't fucking explode." Truly, our magical prowess is to be feared.
Speaking of magical prowess, Moskurg hasn't shown any new developments this year. Either their newest creation is subtle enough to escape notice, or they failed entirely to produce something. Battles in the jungle have become more even as a result of the shifting power, and despite the viscous fighting that results in no clear winner there is some hopeful talk among our soldiers that perhaps we'll be able to hold on to what remains of the territory.
Neither side gains ground in the jungle.
The desert is likewise a bit of a wash. With the bulk of our forces split between the jungle and the desert assault, we simply don't have the strength to take the sands. Moskurg seems surprised that we would strike at their home turf, and their skirmishes uniformly fail. We have some mixed success with our skirmishes, but ultimately we just don't know the land as well as they do. Our heavy calvary isn't as helpful as it could be, considering they're raised in the cold north. If it weren't for the tower of Forever Frost, all our men would cook in their steel suits - even then, walking is difficult on the shifting sands. Moskurg wins two battles, but we pull back before we can lose too many men.
Moskurg repels Arstotzka from the desert.
The Gods seem to be against us on the seas - we pull the bulk of our fleet to the Western Sea, and though we win two of the major assaults we fail to inflict lasting damage. Moskurg wins only a single battle, sinking one of our ships with a desperate ramming attack, resulting in the only loss in that area. The ocean seems more akin to a forest with how much wood we've put on the waves, but the dirty Moskurgs are simply too agile to nail down and flee before we can get close enough to board. Their weather keeps the battle field even, despite our mass of ships.
Neither side makes coastal gains in the jungle. Moskurg cements control of the Eastern Sea.
Our biggest problem seems to be both our difficulty gain prisoners during a route and our tendency to trade troops back when we do. It's impossible to gain ground when their ranks swell back to full strength after each and every fruitless battle. Returning troops wouldn't be such a big deal if we could get more of them during each route, but at the moment both sides are fighting at full capacity - and have been for the past few years.
It is 921, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 921 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 08, 2017, 06:07:01 pm
Dragon's Head : A metallic Ram shaped like a dragon, designed to be fitted on a vessel or carriage. Inlaid runework allows it to fire a powerfull fireball spell.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 08, 2017, 06:09:23 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 08, 2017, 07:06:37 pm
Post by: RAM on April 08, 2017, 09:48:38 pm
A small metal boat with oars and supplies enough for a day-trip that can act as an escape should the spell-work fail or a platform from which to reset the magic if repairs are required. Mostly, though, it is a combination of spell-language from the magic scrolls and power-regulation from gems. A large, ritual-pattern is etched across the boat using permanent magic script(experiment with materials such as silver studded with powdered gem off-cuts and such) centred upon an altar studded with many gems linked together. The end result being a combination of a permanent magic scroll and maintenance crystal to summon a crystal formation centred upon the metal boat. The crystal formation is, obviously, a long, large ship with a prominent blade at its leading edge and heavy crystal masts and oar-holes. As well as the obvious battlements and arrow slits. The hull should be at least two centimetres thick, preferably a good deal more and the masts should be as thick as existing masts, relying upon the extra strength to carry excessive sails.
The only new technology is a permanent ritual chamber for massive but standardised spells and their maintenance, which we largely already have with the forever frost but it could use some refinement. The rest is just crystal sculpting. But if it works then crystal tanks should be possible...
Helbirds: Expand the summoned pole-axes to be mounted upon a round body with two legs and a pair of wings shaped to catch the ground and right it should it fall and protect the legs. This will allow the pole-axes to be used independently as expendable troops that can just be resummoned if they get swarmed. Mostly it is just a pun, but being the first to weaponise puns is important!
Summoned Shelter:
A two-storey covered tower of crystal thick enough that nothing short of siege-weapons will get through it that has no openings besides arrow/spell slits too small for a soldier to traverse. Gem-powered obviously it is pretty miserable to attack the things and ignoring them means being pelted from behind. Prone to getting our troops captured, but the soldiers surrender shortly before the shelter fails and the idiots let them march back home and all it costs us is some equipment...
Crystal Formation:
Wizards can make any shape at all with crystals, it is just a matter of having the power to match its scale and the faculties to match its complexity. We should be pretty close to this point but it makes things crazy-vague for the poor G.M....
Tall Targets:
No idea how those mosskegs got so lucky to use lightning against metal, but we have seen enough to know that it homes right in on our armour and anything elevated. So lets Build some big armour, and summon up some very simple walking crystals, about 6 metres tall. Just have them wade into the Keggers' formations and trample whatever they find and bring the lightning right back down in the middle of the idiots who summoned it. Obviously we have the sense to stay clear while storms are about and if they choose to avoid the things then let them break the enemy formations uncontested...
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 08, 2017, 10:26:54 pm
This neck band is summoned to create a highly stable and regular artificial crystal which holds magical energy. When snapped around the neck it can not be removed until the crystal dissipates. The artificial crystals drain magic not from outside like the wards, but from the subject with the collar directly whenever they channel magic. The crystals release heat, weak at first but eventually enough to kill the mage if they try to complete a spell against the pain, as their throat, spine and carotid artery are burned through.
These devices are meant to help aid in capturing enemy mages using a special forces redesign of our anti magic teams.
Post by: RAM on April 08, 2017, 11:19:34 pm
Mage Control CollarEhh, sure, whatever +1... It'd be nice if they could be overcharged externally too so as to give non-mages the same threat, but that is not important.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 08, 2017, 11:45:39 pm
The idea is to summon a highly structured crystal rather then use natural ones for this collar, they would last for a day or so like the ungemed axes, maybe.
Post by: Azzuro on April 09, 2017, 12:58:41 am
Also, just to confirm, our Anti-Magic Charms are suppressing magic in their presence, right? Not just warning of ambient magic? I think the Mosskergs upgraded the sleep spell's range to target our commanders as well. Or they might have built something in their capital, like our AAAA.
Oh, and +1 for Crystal Corsair. But for clarity, let's compile our votes:
Quote
Dragon's Head: 0
Wand of Minor Fireball: 0
Crystal Corsair: 1
Helbirds: 0
Summoned Shelter: 0
Crystal Formation: 0
Tall Targets: 0
Mage Control Collar: 1
Please quote this and add in your new votes and designs to make it easier for the GM.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 09, 2017, 01:24:24 am
Quote
Dragon's Head: 0This is a actually neat and easy way of counting votes, this should be our standard way of doing it.
Wand of Minor Fireball: 0
Crystal Corsair: 2
Helbirds: 0
Summoned Shelter: 0
Crystal Formation: 0
Tall Targets: 0
Mage Control Collar: 1
Post by: evictedSaint on April 09, 2017, 01:38:44 am
Quote
Also, just to confirm, our Anti-Magic Charms are suppressing magic in their presence, right? Not just warning of ambient magic?
Currently they get hot in the presence of magic.
Post by: Azzuro on April 09, 2017, 01:47:36 am
QuoteAlso, just to confirm, our Anti-Magic Charms are suppressing magic in their presence, right? Not just warning of ambient magic?
Currently they get hot in the presence of magic.
I was asking if Mossberg were to cast a spell on the bearer of an Anti-Magic Charm, that spell would be shut down/of reduced effectiveness, right? Or are the Anti-Magic Charms only functioning as alarms, and don't in fact do anything to impede enemy magic?
Post by: evictedSaint on April 09, 2017, 01:54:56 am
Post by: Azzuro on April 09, 2017, 02:04:41 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 09, 2017, 08:41:11 am
Quote
Dragon's Head: 0
Wand of Minor Fireball: 0
Crystal Corsair: 2
Helbirds: 0
Summoned Shelter: 0
Crystal Formation: 0
Tall Targets: 0
Mage Control Collar: 1
Actually Functional anti magic charms : 1
Post by: andrea on April 09, 2017, 11:37:57 am
Magic absorbing crystal charm This summoned crystal absorbs spells cast in the vicinity and stores them within itself, without converting them into unbearable heat. It will use the gathered energy to prolong its life and, if excessive, will use it to grow. An extra goal will be keeping this energy available for future use by wizards. Target cost expensive.
Should progress to make crystal gather magical energy fail, then an encased gemstone can be used.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 09, 2017, 11:46:54 am
Quote
Dragon's Head: 0
Wand of Minor Fireball: 0
Crystal Corsair: 1
Helbirds: 0
Summoned Shelter: 0
Crystal Formation: 0
Tall Targets: 0
Mage Control Collar: 1
Actually Functional anti magic charms : 2
Post by: andrea on April 09, 2017, 03:29:23 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 09, 2017, 03:40:30 pm
Imagine an entire industrial world based on this: Oh no my car is spitting out wasps better turn it off and get a tow truck.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 09, 2017, 04:37:49 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 09, 2017, 05:14:04 pm
How about instead of generating heat the charm summons wasps to get rid of excess energy?Found the revision. Cause that is a freaking beuatiful idea.
Imagine an entire industrial world based on this: Oh no my car is spitting out wasps better turn it off and get a tow truck.
Post by: Andres on April 09, 2017, 06:12:15 pm
Making Fireball cheaper will also improve our performance in the sea for obvious reasons. Anti-magic charms, even if successful, will not.
Make Fireball cheaper.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 09, 2017, 06:16:22 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 09, 2017, 06:26:16 pm
I think we're thinking about this the wrong way. Our biggest problem is stated to be that we don't kill/rout enough of our enemies, not that we're suffering too much from their spells. So how do we kill/rout more enemies? The answer is something we already have: Fireball. It's noted for its high lethality and morale effects, but it's too expensive to be of much use. The answer is to make more common an effective thing we have, rather than make an entirely new thing.
Making Fireball cheaper will also improve our performance in the sea for obvious reasons. Anti-magic charms, even if successful, will not.
Make Fireball cheaper.
Glory to Arstotzka.
+1, maybe also work on the waste heat moral problem at the same time?
I wanted to make plentiful mini-fireball wands but this works.
Post by: Andres on April 09, 2017, 06:45:39 pm
maybe also work on the waste heat moral problem at the same time?That's probably better left to a Revision. Getting the Fireball as it is to be be a lot cheaper than it is now without sacrificing any of its positive qualities is something we should keep focus on with the Design.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 10, 2017, 08:41:02 am
Post by: Azzuro on April 10, 2017, 08:48:58 am
Post by: evictedSaint on April 10, 2017, 09:13:31 am
With our apprentices now recieving proper training, we have a renewed push to equip them with offensive spells. The backbone of Arstotzkan wizardry is pyromancy, so we've developed a cheaper, easier version of our fireball spell we can teach.
The results are very, very satisfying.
The new fireball spell is just a reworked version of our Minor Fireball spell, stripped down the the basics so our apprentices can use it with their limited training. Notably, Minor Fireball was itself a stripped down version of our regular Fireball spell, and upon revisiting the spellwork our mages have noticed that a number of the incantations and spellweaving for the Minor Fireball is in fact redundant. By streamlining the spell, it's now simple enough that our apprentices can use it with similar effect.
The only downside is our apprentices aren't quite as skilled as our mages, so their accuracy suffers to a degree. It's barely an issue though, since Moskurgs tend to march in formation and all we have to do is aim for the center. Normal Cost
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 10, 2017, 09:44:32 am
Yes, I know I keep repeating the same thing, but it's needed and it will be effective. Moskurg's magic relies on targetting a few of our forces. Sleep spell on a few guards, mindreading a few commanders, that kind of thing. Even a very expensive charm will work well because Moskurg almost never targets the common rabble. Just the guards (and we only need to apply the charm to one guard, because it'll alarm him when they try to cast the sleep spell) and the commanders.
It's funny how this in stark contrast to our own magic, which relies on big, spectacular outbursts of power.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 10, 2017, 09:53:39 am
Metal Shields: This should be a no-brainer.
Post by: Azzuro on April 10, 2017, 10:01:45 am
Quote
Revisions Phase:
Actually Functional Anti-Magic Charms: 1
Heat Shields: 0
Metal Shields: 0
Please quote this and add in your votes and revisions, to make it easier for the GM.
Also, Mosskerg magic does have big, spectacular outbursts of power. Remember the rainstorms and lightning bolts? I don't think our charms will help against that unless we roll a 6, but we still need to counter that sleep spell before they start sending entire armies off to dreamlands.
And Urist, I don't think we should be getting too ambitious in the revisions phase. It isn't stated that Musberg troops are physically attacking our commanders after casting the sleep spell, which works at a distance anyway. And there aren't that many charms, so it won't do much to tilt the physical battlefield. I think the charms should just stay as magical defence, not physical defence for now.
And I think we already have metal shields. If we have enough metal to outfit one-third of our armies with full plate armour, we've surely been making metal shields for everyone already.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 10, 2017, 10:05:25 am
Could you mark down names instead of numbers, though? It helps make it clear who voted for what
Post by: Azzuro on April 10, 2017, 10:15:19 am
Quote
Revisions Phase:
Actually Functional Anti-Magic Charms: Azzuro
Heat Shields: 0
Metal Shields: 0
Please quote this and add in your names to vote and any additional revision ideas, to make it easier for the GM.
I'm taking it that the designers of an idea aren't voting for themselves, to prevent everyone voting for their own ideas and failing to come to a consensus.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 10, 2017, 10:26:49 am
Quote
Revisions Phase:Sure.
Actually Functional Anti-Magic Charms: Azzuro
Heat Shields: 0
Metal Shields: 0
Fireball Talisman: 0
And I think we already have metal shields. If we have enough metal to outfit one-third of our armies with full plate armour, we've surely been making metal shields for everyone already.It's not in the equipment list. Right now, we only have wooden shields.
Fireball Talisman: Okay, maybe the heat shield wasn't such a good idea. This is a much better idea. Using the heat from the anti-magic amulets, our commanders can now throw (small) fireballs to burn off the heat! Not very effective compared to legions of apprentices spamming fireball, but a great morale booster, and it leads into stored spells!
Post by: Urist Mc Dwarf on April 10, 2017, 10:29:56 am
QuoteRevisions Phase:Sure.
Actually Functional Anti-Magic Charms: Azzuro, Urist
Heat Shields: 0
Metal Shields: 0
Fireball Talisman: 0And I think we already have metal shields. If we have enough metal to outfit one-third of our armies with full plate armour, we've surely been making metal shields for everyone already.It's not in the equipment list. Right now, we only have wooden shields.
Fireball Talisman: Okay, maybe the heat shield wasn't such a good idea. This is a much better idea. Using the heat from the anti-magic amulets, our commanders can now throw (small) fireballs to burn off the heat! Not very effective compared to legions of apprentices spamming fireball, but a great morale booster, and it leads into stored spells!
Post by: Azzuro on April 10, 2017, 10:37:31 am
And I think we already have metal shields. If we have enough metal to outfit one-third of our armies with full plate armour, we've surely been making metal shields for everyone already.It's not in the equipment list. Right now, we only have wooden shields.
Oh, my bad, I didn't see the wooden shields. Still, while metal shields will help us in battle, I think working on counter-magic magic will help us more in both the short and long term.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 10, 2017, 10:37:52 am
Actually Functional Anti-Magic Charms: Azzuro, Urist, 10ebbor10
Heat Shields: 0
Metal Shields: 0
Fireball Talisman: 0
Post by: andrea on April 10, 2017, 10:39:17 am
Quote
Revisions Phase:
Actually Functional Anti-Magic Charms: Azzuro, Urist, Andrea, 10ebbor10
Heat Shields: 0
Metal Shields: 0
Fireball Talisman: 0
Besides, wooden shields are by no means ineffective. and our plate covers physical defense quite well.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 10, 2017, 12:31:51 pm
That and we currently don't have a need for shields maybe if they start doing something funky to wood, we might need to switch but as of now now we have more pressing matters.QuoteRevisions Phase:
Actually Functional Anti-Magic Charms: Azzuro, Urist, Andrea, 10ebbor10, Stabby
Heat Shields: 0
Metal Shields: 0
Fireball Talisman: 0
Besides, wooden shields are by no means ineffective. and our plate covers physical defense quite well.
Post by: Andres on April 10, 2017, 06:58:58 pm
Getting hit by arrows fired from long-ranged, powerful bows is one thing. Getting hit by a rain of arrows fired from long-ranged, powerful bows is another. Furthermore, arrows are especially deadly against poorly-armoured troops, and the Moskurgers mainly field poorly-armoured troops, so removing this bottleneck will greatly increase the amount of kills we achieve.
Glory to Arstotzka.
EDIT: Forgot quote box.
Quote
Revisions Phase:
Actually Functional Anti-Magic Charms: Azzuro, Urist, 10ebbor10
Heat Shields: 0
Metal Shields: 0
Fireball Talisman: 0
Cheap longbows: Andres
[6!-1, 3+1, 6!]What did these rolls represent?
Post by: evictedSaint on April 10, 2017, 07:50:09 pm
the excitation points just mean you crit'd.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 10, 2017, 08:30:23 pm
Quote
Revisions Phase:
Actually Functional Anti-Magic Charms: Azzuro, Urist, 10ebbor10
Heat Shields: 0
Metal Shields: 0
Fireball Talisman: 0
Cheap longbows: Andres Void Slayer
+1 cheap longbows, we need to equip every man with longbows and Pikes.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 10, 2017, 09:29:21 pm
QuoteRevisions Phase:
Actually Functional Anti-Magic Charms: Azzuro, Urist, 10ebbor10
Heat Shields: 0
Metal Shields: 0
Fireball Talisman: 0
Cheap longbows: Andres Void Slayer, Stabby
+1 cheap longbows, we need to equip every man with longbows and Pikes.
Edit: I'll switch my vote, cuz honestly the charms are way to small to be worth it.
Post by: Playergamer on April 10, 2017, 09:32:57 pm
first of all, those are entirely different skill sets. second of all, those are both costly primary weapons.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 10, 2017, 09:58:28 pm
you can't give every man in an army a longbow and a pike.
first of all, those are entirely different skill sets. second of all, those are both costly primary weapons.
Have I introduced you to my Pikebow design?
Or maybe units of pikemen protecting bowmen? maybe that would work saner.
Post by: Andres on April 10, 2017, 10:00:15 pm
you can't give every man in an army a longbow and a pike.Your logic is bad, as it assumes that every single person in our army will be given a longbow. In truth, it just means we expand the number of archers we have from being a useful tool in the field to a large tactical advantage. Or do you think that every army to field large numbers of archers was stupid to do so? I'd really rather this not become a situation like the MC16 in the first Arms Race game.
first of all, those are entirely different skill sets. second of all, those are both costly primary weapons.
Post by: Playergamer on April 10, 2017, 10:02:28 pm
I wasn't responding to you Andres, yes yes Crecy and Agincourt, I was responding to Voidslayer. :)you can't give every man in an army a longbow and a pike.Your logic is bad, as it assumes that every single person in our army will be given a longbow. In truth, it just means we expand the number of archers we have from being a useful tool in the field to a large tactical advantage. Or do you think that every army to field large numbers of archers was stupid to do so? I'd really rather this not become a situation like the MC16 was in the first Arms Race game.
first of all, those are entirely different skill sets. second of all, those are both costly primary weapons.
Post by: Andres on April 10, 2017, 10:11:26 pm
I want to switch my vote so bad...Please do so. Not having massed archer volleys when we have the superior ranged implement of war is hurting us more than a lack of a weak anti-magic charm. It's also a simple goal and thus unlikely to fail, unlike the anti-magic charm which more than likely requires a full Design to do anything significant.
I wasn't responding to you Andres, yes yes Crecy and Agincourt, I was responding to Voidslayer. :)Fair enough. Can I convince you to vote for cheaper longbows? The Moskurgers are just begging to be pincushions.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Roboson on April 10, 2017, 11:52:51 pm
Post by: Andres on April 11, 2017, 02:29:41 am
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 11, 2017, 02:33:01 am
Quote
Revisions Phase:
Actually Functional Anti-Magic Charms: Azzuro, Urist, 10ebbor10
Heat Shields: 0
Metal Shields: 0
Fireball Talisman: 0
Cheap longbows: Andres Void Slayer, Stabby,Roboson
Added the name to the list.
Post by: OceanSoul on April 11, 2017, 06:33:53 am
Quote
Revisions Phase:
Actually Functional Anti-Magic Charms: Azzuro, Urist, 10ebbor10, OceanSoul
Heat Shields: 0
Metal Shields: 0
Fireball Talisman: 0
Cheap longbows: Andres Void Slayer, Stabby,Roboson
I'm for antimagic.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 11, 2017, 08:40:24 am
Post by: Andres on April 11, 2017, 06:17:12 pm
I'm for antimagic.Please change your vote. Making our "anti-magic" charm into what you and the others are imagining is a major project, something that requires a Design rather than a Revision. Making our longbows cheap is not only exactly within the bounds of what a Revision can do, but it'll also result in a major advantage in the area which we have been explicitly told is holding us back the most - killing people.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 11, 2017, 09:17:12 pm
The limited availability of longbows has been due to the lack the appropriate wood and the lack of proper training. Longbows are traditionally hewn from yew trees found deep in the forests of our homeland, giving rise to powerful bows that send shafts of ash wood sailing far, far into the distance. Rather than harvesting from wild yew trees, we've cleared a plot of land to allow for yew trees to be grown and farmed. This gives a consistent, steady supply of wood for crafting that produces bows of similar quality.
Training is simpler - veterans of the bow are pulled from our forces during the lull in combat this past year and set about training fresh recruits. These recruits are still green without the years of training that traditionally accompanies our elite longbowmen, but they can send an arrow on its way just as well. They likely won't be sharpshooters, but they're good for massed volleys. Normal Cost
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 11, 2017, 09:25:19 pm
Anyone want to focus on variations of fireballs(plasmaball, magnesium infused flareball, Arstotzkan Fireball Corps) next turn?
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 11, 2017, 09:54:23 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 11, 2017, 10:10:26 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 11, 2017, 10:36:36 pm
Or rapid fire fireballs.
Or wolves.
Wolves that shoot out fireballs.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 12, 2017, 12:37:02 am
Due to the way counters work in Iituems game engine, it actually looks like improving a skill the enemy has a counter against will hurt your side.
Obviously, I'm not going to penalize you guys for having more archers. I'll need some more time to go through the code and figure out what would be an appropriate change, but it's late and I'm tired.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 12, 2017, 01:53:37 am
Post by: andrea on April 12, 2017, 04:54:49 am
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 12, 2017, 09:58:00 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 12, 2017, 10:01:17 am
On a related note, I think we could remove their lightning ability by sapping moisture from the air using a fog variant.
Post by: andrea on April 12, 2017, 10:02:34 am
As for the anti magic tower, an anti magic charm allwos us to not block our own mages too much, while a tower is a complete denial. That said, experience with charms would surely have helped designing a successful large scale antimagic.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 12, 2017, 10:06:21 am
Actually, there's an idea. A floating tower that can project zones of anti magic wherever we choose, not just in a specific area. Then the absorbed magic is turned into a heat ray.
Long term goal, though. Let's list what would be needed...
1. A way to float(hyper-dense fog?)
2. A way to control anti magic zones(?)
3. Heat control, we're pretty good on.
4. A way to make much larger anti-magic zones than right now.
Post by: andrea on April 12, 2017, 10:15:06 am
4. A way to make much larger anti-magic zones than right now.
We can't make ANY anti-magic zone right now. Researching how to make them work is needed.
Post by: Azzuro on April 12, 2017, 11:17:31 am
Make a lightning rod.
And yeah, we do not have any anti-magic capability AT ALL. The 'anti-magic charms' basically only work as crappy alarms, they don't do anything to stop enemy magic. That's why I voted for them to be revised. We have a lot of half-finished spells and projects in our arsenal (the tower of Forever Frost that does jack-shit in helping us, the anti-magic charms that aren't anti at all, crystal axes that are too expensive to be worth it, magic lances that are also expensive, etc.) The plate armour, fireballs and anti-wizard guard appear to be our only useful weapons. I'd argue that barring Moskerg unveiling some magical superweapon next turn, we should spend the next design phase on improving something again, like we did with the fireballs this turn.
Oh, and cheaper longbows won't do much good. By all measures we should already be beating Mossberg soldiers in physical battle excluding the use of magic: we have plate armour that renders (a third of) us invulnerable to arrows, longbows that outrange the enemy's, crystal axes for our officers and crystal lances for our cavalry that are quantitatively equal and qualitatively superior. The problem isn't that we're getting beaten by Muskergites in physical combat, but that we're not getting to do so with Muskberg magical interference before the combat, in the form of weather control and sleep spells allowing them to get the drop on us.
Post by: andrea on April 12, 2017, 11:22:50 am
In fact, lets build an anti magic spell so strong it actually removes magic entirely, then use the surplus energy to move the island to the southern hemisphere where it belongs.
Post by: Roboson on April 12, 2017, 11:33:46 am
Post by: andrea on April 12, 2017, 11:34:58 am
But generally, their magic is a problem.
Post by: Azzuro on April 12, 2017, 11:45:33 am
In all seriousness, anti-magic may or may not be the best way to counter a magical superweapon, depending on whether there's a mundane way to contain or mitigate its effects. And (somewhat meta) it'd be a pretty boring game if magic was removed entirely, so I'd hope the GM would limit anti-magic to perhaps be more expensive than the magic it's blocking, or some other way to limit anti-magic to tactical use only. I mean it's Wands Race, not Swords & Shields Race.
Oh, and reading the last turn, our issue is the skirmish phase in the jungle (we only had one successful skirmish, probably due to the sleep spells) and the melee phase in the desert (Mosskerg doesn't win any skirmishes but wins two battles).
Oh, and evictedSaint, could you clarify this paragraph:
Quote
Our biggest problem seems to be both our difficulty gain prisoners during a route and our tendency to trade troops back when we do. It's impossible to gain ground when their ranks swell back to full strength after each and every fruitless battle. Returning troops wouldn't be such a big deal if we could get more of them during each route, but at the moment both sides are fighting at full capacity - and have been for the past few years.
I was under the impression that as Moskberg had chivalry and we had pragmatism, we would effectively have reduced casualties of 2 armies per turn while they have a permanent morale boost. This paragraph makes it seem like we can't give the Mosbergians their prisoners back in exchange for ours because we haven't captured enough, but they should be giving our prisoners back anyway because they're chivalrous.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 12, 2017, 12:01:36 pm
To take a territory, you must first kill/capture (mechanically the same thing) all enemy troops in the area.
Post by: Andres on April 12, 2017, 05:36:41 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Azzuro on April 12, 2017, 06:14:25 pm
You exchange prisoners with Moskurg. If Moskurg has more prisoners, they release them anyways and both sides are back to full health. If you have more prisoners, the remainder after trading is executed. On top of that, both sides get +2 reinforcements per round to a max army size determined by how many territories you own.
To take a territory, you must first kill/capture (mechanically the same thing) all enemy troops in the area.
Is this the way it's supposed to work? Pragmatism should provide a -1 to our losses, but this way it's providing a -1 to both our losses and theirs, in effect doing nothing. Meanwhile Chivalry should provide a -1 to our losses and a morale boost to theirs, but crucially if Moskurg is losing (capturing less prisoners), it doesn't provide the -1 to our losses.
I.E. Moskurg gets the morale boost no matter what, but the downside of their bonus doesn't apply if they're losing. Whereas our bonus doesn't provide any upside or downside at all if both losses are reduced equally.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 12, 2017, 06:29:58 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 12, 2017, 06:33:47 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 12, 2017, 06:35:28 pm
Post by: RAM on April 12, 2017, 07:49:49 pm
How exactly is metal armour vulnerable to lightning? I mean, sure, it gets hit easily, but so do any troop formations. I recall once hearing that people are more likely to survive lightning strikes in the rain, there was a theory that the water might conduct it around the body rather than through it. I could easily see electricity arcing through an arm or sending burning metal onto someone's face or shocking their heart because lolrandom but overall I would expect lighting to be less effective against full-body metal armour than the absence of such. This just reeks to me of Keggers cheating up "electricity is strong against metal" nonsense from R.P.G.s and such in a line of thinking that would be largely impossible in the time-period and failing to appreciate that one of the things that electricity is most famously weak against is The Metal Cage of Faraday.
Post by: Roboson on April 12, 2017, 08:08:00 pm
It would neutralize their chivalry bonus and deny them troop resupply. You would still get +1 troop back per turn, plus +2 reinforcements.
Wow, so the actual pragmatic way to go is to switch to terror.
I propose we switch to terror instead of pragmatism.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 12, 2017, 08:22:15 pm
...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 12, 2017, 08:31:12 pm
Might as well, also the comic is legit funny. But if we do it we need to get the webs revised and cheaper to kill more of them during calvary charges(imagine what would happen if the front of a charge suddenly stopped, tumbled, got insanely stick enmass.) and to simply kill more of them while routing.It would neutralize their chivalry bonus and deny them troop resupply. You would still get +1 troop back per turn, plus +2 reinforcements.
Wow, so the actual pragmatic way to go is to switch to terror.
I propose we switch to terror instead of pragmatism.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 12, 2017, 08:44:08 pm
...Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Revise plate armor into faraday cages.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 12, 2017, 10:11:56 pm
Otherwise, nothing interesting happens in the mountains this year.
No battles occur in the mountains.
A row of Moskurg forts stare silently across at a row of Arstotzkan forts, sitting on both the edge of the plains and tangia respectively. Our men complain of cold weather, leaky boots, and mediocre rations. The year goes by quietly.
No battles occur in the plains.
Fireballs streak through undergrowth at soldiers charging through wet, dense undergrowth. Explosions rock the trees, and our longbows rip through leaves with deadly force. Our men run screaming into battle, hacking and slashing with a wild frenzy as our calvary thunders through the trees into enemy positions. Moskurg returns the favor with arrows of their own, pelting our men. Rain pours, pours, and pours - for the first time in memory, the weather doesn't let up. For the entire year thunder booms overhead and lightning arcs downward at random. The jungle is marred with dead, splintered, burning trees from the incessant bolts of plasma that come streaking towards the ground. Our men are hit with increasing frequency, and they get really mad when some of them die because of it. The rain makes maintaining equipment difficult - steel rusts, boots fill with water, and men sink up to their knees in mud. Our new flurry of longbowmen do a good job of punching through enemy sternums, though the jungle isn't the ideal place for their use. The rain is hard on the bows, but oiled coverings keep them as dry as possible between battles. Our heavy calvary do the heavy lifting, working in tandem with our heavy infantry. We fail most of our skirmishes, but the more frequent use of fireballs means battles are more or less even. Moskurg is more successful with skirmishes, lulling our guards to sleep at night before charging into our positions to wreck havoc. Our caltrops do their job, but they've learned to travel single-file. Anti-magic charms on the theatre commanders tip us off about incoming raids, but the warnings are becoming less frequent as Moskurg learns they're giving away their position. By the end of the year, the jungle is filled with blasted trees and corpses. The Moskurgs outnumber us here, and that's their only saving grace - that, and their cursed wizard al-Mutriqa.
The fighting is bloody; both sides lose several companies in the viscous combat. The bloodiest part comes after the battles, though.
We make examples of every Moskurg soldier who dares surrender.
Neither side gains ground in the jungle.
We have very limited success in the desert, only winning a few raids before combat. Moskurg hits our positions nearly every night, and by the time the battles occur our men are tired and angry. We win one battle initially and score a good number of prisoners, but the following fights go against us. We are pushed back to the mountains, under the safety of our Tower of Frost. We captured a number of Moskurg soldiers during the initial assault, and Moskurg captures twice as many during our retreat. We wait until our men are returned to us, then hang every last enemy prisoner from the parapets of the Tower. Myark personally kicks the last soldier from the stony heights. They hang there for the rest of the year where all can see them.
Moskurg repels Arstotzka from the desert.
The seas are a game of cat-and-mouse. Moskurg threatens our ports whenever we sail, but flee whenever we get close. They're cowards, every last one of them. Battles are all fleeting skirmishes with no clear winner.
Neither side makes coastal gains in the Western Sea.
It is 922, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 922 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 12, 2017, 10:22:36 pm
Quote
Bestial Splicing: 0
Arstotzkan Fireball Corps: 0
Dragon's Fireball: 0
Arstotzkan Fireball Corps: Specialization has been demonstrated to work in the industrial realm. Why not the military realm? Different mages prefer different types of magic. Those apprentices that really prefer fireballs to the detriment of other magics(while studying in the academy) will not be forced to study other magics, rather specializing exclusively in fireballs.
Dragon's Fireball: It's about time we took our Greater Fireball and converted that waste heat into extra power. So mote it be.
Beastial Splicing: Using a ritual, we can now merge men with beasts, giving volunteers for this procedure animal traits. The strength of a bear! The speed of a wildcat! The nose of a wolf! All at the low low cost of some reasoning ability! They will never expect this! Unfortunately, as of right now, we can only splice mammals. The attempt at splicing a man with a lizard... didn't go well.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 12, 2017, 11:07:25 pm
Post by: Andres on April 12, 2017, 11:17:49 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 12, 2017, 11:20:07 pm
Post by: Andres on April 12, 2017, 11:27:35 pm
Would focus and intended limitations grant bonuses for designs?
For example for an intended limitation: We want to make the Darkvision spell like the OP. Instead of turning pitch black into day, we just say we want to make it turn pitch black into twilight.
For an example of focus: We want to make a new clone spell. We focus more on quality of clones produced than quantity.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 12, 2017, 11:30:27 pm
You then made a smaller variant called Minor Fireball.
You then revised Minor Fireball cheap enough to be used by your apprentices - called Streamlined Fireball.
Post by: Andres on April 12, 2017, 11:33:16 pm
Fireball was your starting spell.Is there any way to make Fireball - the full power variant - cheaper?
You then made a smaller variant called Minor Fireball.
You then revised Minor Fireball cheap enough to be used by your apprentices - called Streamlined Fireball.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 12, 2017, 11:40:39 pm
Post by: Andres on April 12, 2017, 11:57:53 pm
Quote
Bestial Splicing: 0
Arstotzkan Fireball Corps: 0
Dragon's Fireball: 0
Ministry of Integrity: 0
Glory to Arstotzka.
((This will get us espionage actions like in Arms Race, allowing us to sabotage the enemy design teams and steal spells for ourselves.))
Post by: evictedSaint on April 13, 2017, 12:03:57 am
Post by: Andres on April 13, 2017, 12:23:08 am
Our biggest problem at the moment seems to be that we are not good at all when it comes to skirmishes. Darkvision will not only be good for foiling Moskurg efforts, but will let us perform our own night raids with better results. We'll also gain the ability to attack at night at sea, so they won't be able to run away any more and they'll also perform more poorly in those night sea battles.
Stop attacking the Desert. Start attacking the Plains and send Myark there too.
Hopefully we can break their control of the plains with our cheap fireballs, plentiful arrows, and the presence of Myark. We just aren't making any headway in the desert. It's like the plains except it's also very hot and they have the home ground advantage.
Glory to Astotzka.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 13, 2017, 12:30:00 am
Summon Magic Detection Amulet - Using a base cheap gem we summon a highly structured artificial crystal linked to it. While the gem does not need the strength or other properties of a diamond (though it can) it is specifically designed to hold magic. The cheaper gem can be strung around the neck so the crystal is summoned on it. When magic is detected the amulet summons fog pointing in the direction of the magic's source.
Summon Crystal Wolves - Large, aggressive wolves with crystal armored plating for protection. When directly controlled they are passive, but when control is given up they become filled with a berserk bloodlust with a particular hatred of horses.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 13, 2017, 12:51:28 am
Stop attacking the Desert. Start attacking the Plains and send Myark there too.
Hopefully we can break their control of the plains with our cheap fireballs, plentiful arrows, and the presence of Myark. We just aren't making any headway in the desert. It's like the plains except it's also very hot and they have the home ground advantage.
Glory to Astotzka.
Will not work.
We gave up control of the local sea. That gives them a major bonus.
Quote
The Moskurgs outnumber us here, and that's their only saving grace - that, and their cursed wizard al-Mutriqa.
We could take a risk and send all the desert invasion forces to the Jungle. Hopefully that tips the scsles enough to force Moskurg back, knocking out al-mutriqa.
Functional anti- magic charms : Really, this will benefit us a lot.
Anti-magic arrows : Cheap, mass produced anti magic arrowheads. Launch them into the air where they'll disrupt Moskurgian weather control and then blow up amongst their forces.
Improved Frost Tower Cheaper, colder, and with less attendance needed
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 13, 2017, 01:26:39 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 13, 2017, 01:48:09 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 13, 2017, 01:55:05 am
We have a bunch of prisoners we're executing anyway, why not use them.
Ritual Sacrifice : Life energy is powerfull. Very powerfull. Sacrifice of enemy forces allows us to strengthen our spells and unleash even deadlier energies against the Moskurgians.
Post by: RAM on April 13, 2017, 02:32:34 am
We have two national efforts, lets get some more effort to national with!
Gilda's brother always dreamed of joining the academy, learning magic, and exploding Moskurgers, and she always supported these noble dreams. Trajically, while ploughing the frozen fields together, her brother suddenly died of exposure the day before he could apply. Yearning to see her brother's dreams fulfilled, young Gilda donned a disguise and entered the academy in guise of her beloved brother, hoping to bring glory to his name. At the acedmy she spent 2-4 seasons engaged in various hilarious and dramatic hijinks.
She gained the favour of an enigmatic mystic talking owl. Found it to be entirely far too enigmatic so she broke its legs and tied it to a stick. It was much less enigmatic after that and behaved really well so she rebroke its legs and splinted them properly and it has since learned to crudely hobble around under its own power...
She met an annoying boy, had a long string of arguments and abusive exchanges, fell in love as destiny decreed, saw him mind controlled in a Mosskurger scheme, promptly ripped his head off with her bare hands set his corpse on fire, threw it from a precipitous cliff, and then jumped after it, landing atop the remains and sending the charred gore across the landscape. You can never be too careful with Mosskurgers...
Of course she had an endless series of near-misses with her disguise. Constantly using the wrong chamber pot. Suffering assorted side-effects from hair-growth spells she used to fake stubble while on field expeditions. Causing consternation amongst new arrivals who found his/her figure strangely alluring... OF course, this all ended in the series finale when she used her ultimate magic before the whole assembly to save the academy from a Giant all-knowing betentacled Mosskurger mind-parasite...
Speaking of her ultimate magic, she spontaneously developed a unique form of crystal manipulation. This takes the form of various physical rituals that look almost like dancing, accompanied by various crystal formations forming and shattering that sound almost like some sort of personal backing music, and then there is the strangely unnoticed crystallisation of the surrounding time which causes the rest of existence to fragmentally stop for the 15-50 seconds it takes for her to perform any given ritual that makes it seem for all the world as though everyone just stands around and lets her do it...
The effects of these rituals is to cover her in various crystal formations that vary starting with a thin covering over her skin(and forming a miniskirt for some reason) which offers protection and empowerment as she can magically compel the crystal to move with more force than her muscles alone. The most advanced form includes a summoned winged horse, wings of her own, a large ornate headdress, numerous gem-like formations, and all manner of other additions leading her to appear just like a grand valkyrie of legends hurling crystal spears around the battlefield. All of her crystals have a unique golden tint to them and produce a subtle glow.
But generally she just sits on a building making things cold, or waves a fire-stick around...
And no, I don't feel guilty about proposing a magical girl.
Post by: Andres on April 13, 2017, 02:41:44 am
How do we regain control of that sea? An attack order? Or do we automatically make an attempt if we try to attack the plains?Stop attacking the Desert. Start attacking the Plains and send Myark there too.
Hopefully we can break their control of the plains with our cheap fireballs, plentiful arrows, and the presence of Myark. We just aren't making any headway in the desert. It's like the plains except it's also very hot and they have the home ground advantage.
Glory to Astotzka.
Will not work.
We gave up control of the local sea. That gives them a major bonus.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 13, 2017, 03:22:23 am
Don'tknow where the Moskurgians keep getting their stuff, but it appears wind is very powerfull at sea while fireballs do nothong.
Post by: andrea on April 13, 2017, 03:28:29 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 13, 2017, 03:31:51 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 13, 2017, 09:26:33 am
Quote
Bestial Splicing: 0To summarize: we're not getting anywhere.
Arstotzkan Fireball Corps: 0
Dragon's Fireball: 0
Ministry of Integrity: 0
Darkvision: 0
Summon Crystal Wolves: 0
Summon Magic Detection Amulet: 0
Improved Frost Tower: 0
Anti-Magic Arrows: 0
Functional Anti-Magic Charms: 0
Mega Fireball: 0
Ritual Sacrifice: 0
Gilded Guardian Gilda: 0
Fogships: 0
Fogships: By using a bunch of apprentices with the channeled fog spell, we can turn a pair of paddles that move this remarkable new ship design forwards. ((Perfect for Ironclads later.))
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 13, 2017, 10:20:42 am
Quote
Bestial Splicing: 0
Arstotzkan Fireball Corps: 0
Dragon's Fireball: 0
Ministry of Integrity: 0
Darkvision: 0
Summon Crystal Wolves: 0
Summon Magic Detection Amulet: 0
Improved Frost Tower: 0
Anti-Magic Arrows: 0
Functional Anti-Magic Charms: 0
Mega Fireball: 0
Ritual Sacrifice: 10ebbor10
Gilded Guardian Gilda: 0
Fogships: 0
Executing Moskurgians for fun and profit is go.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 13, 2017, 10:21:55 am
Quote
Bestial Splicing: 0
Arstotzkan Fireball Corps: 0
Dragon's Fireball: 0
Ministry of Integrity: 0
Darkvision: 0
Summon Crystal Wolves: 0
Summon Magic Detection Amulet: 0
Improved Frost Tower: 0
Anti-Magic Arrows: 0
Functional Anti-Magic Charms: 0
Mega Fireball: 0
Ritual Sacrifice: 10ebbor10, FallacyofUrist
Gilded Guardian Gilda: 0
Fogships: 0
Post by: Roboson on April 13, 2017, 01:43:33 pm
Quote
Bestial Splicing: 0[/quote]
Arstotzkan Fireball Corps: 0
Dragon's Fireball: 0
Ministry of Integrity: 0
Darkvision: 0
Summon Crystal Wolves: 0
Summon Magic Detection Amulet: 0
Improved Frost Tower: 0
Anti-Magic Arrows: 0
Functional Anti-Magic Charms: 0
Mega Fireball: 0
Ritual Sacrifice: 10ebbor10, FallacyofUrist, Roboson
Gilded Guardian Gilda: 0
Fogships: 0
I'm down for ritual sacrifice, since were executing prisoners anyways. We may want to consider the anti magic charms for our design phase instead though.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 13, 2017, 01:55:39 pm
Functional anti magic charms, since no one likes my idea but we NEED to build on our successes. Or summon wolves.
Quote
Bestial Splicing: 0
Arstotzkan Fireball Corps: 0
Dragon's Fireball: 0
Ministry of Integrity: 0
Darkvision: 0
Summon Crystal Wolves: 0
Summon Magic Detection Amulet: 0
Improved Frost Tower: 0
Anti-Magic Arrows: 0
Functional Anti-Magic Charms: VoidSlayer
Mega Fireball: 0
Ritual Sacrifice: 10ebbor10, FallacyofUrist, Roboson
Gilded Guardian Gilda: 0
Fogships: 0
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 13, 2017, 02:45:34 pm
QuoteBestial Splicing: 0
Arstotzkan Fireball Corps: 0
Dragon's Fireball: 0
Ministry of Integrity: 0
Darkvision: 0
Summon Crystal Wolves: 0
Summon Magic Detection Amulet: 0
Improved Frost Tower: 0
Anti-Magic Arrows: 0
Functional Anti-Magic Charms: VoidSlayer, StabbyMcStabStab
Mega Fireball: 0
Ritual Sacrifice: 10ebbor10, FallacyofUrist, Roboson
Gilded Guardian Gilda: 0
Fogships: 0
Post by: Roboson on April 13, 2017, 03:04:04 pm
Bestial Splicing: 0
Arstotzkan Fireball Corps: 0
Dragon's Fireball: 0
Ministry of Integrity: 0
Darkvision: 0
Summon Crystal Wolves: 0
Summon Magic Detection Amulet: 0
Improved Frost Tower: 0
Anti-Magic Arrows: 0
Functional Anti-Magic Charms: VoidSlayer, StabbyMcStabStab, Roboson
Mega Fireball: 0
Ritual Sacrifice: 10ebbor10, FallacyofUrist,
Gilded Guardian Gilda: 0
Fogships: 0
Official vote change.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 13, 2017, 03:12:13 pm
Ship Control Water Manipulation - Infuse magic into nearby water to control the flow of the water around a ship to speed it up or, if close enough, ensnare and slow down enemy ships.
We don't have direct elemental control yet but we could certainly do so with our control and channeling tech.
Post by: Andres on April 13, 2017, 03:25:05 pm
Quote
Bestial Splicing: 0Hopefully this leads to angel summoning.
Arstotzkan Fireball Corps: 0
Dragon's Fireball: 0
Ministry of Integrity: 0
Darkvision: 0
Summon Crystal Wolves: 0
Summon Magic Detection Amulet: 0
Improved Frost Tower: 0
Anti-Magic Arrows: 0
Functional Anti-Magic Charms: VoidSlayer, StabbyMcStabStab, Roboson
Mega Fireball: 0
Ritual Sacrifice: 10ebbor10, FallacyofUrist, Andres
Gilded Guardian Gilda: 0
Fogships: 0
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on April 13, 2017, 05:40:56 pm
It isn't that ridiculous. We know that fireballs push things away from themselves. We know that crystals stop things from going through them. We can test the theory with metal mock-ups until and get some intake and exhaust vents working through mostly trial-and-error. You can figure out a basic pressure valve by accident if you are trying to mechanically fit a cap over a vent and notice that it closes by itself, after noticing that it blows then sucks when there is only one vent(which would still provide thrust, it will tend to suck from around and blow directly back...). You would probably need one gem for the pulse-jet assembly that can be recast to recover from wear-and-tear and a second gem to channel a rapidly-repeating fireball spell but this is all pretty ordinary stuff for us. Repeating firball shouldn't be too far from channeled fog and we have enough firball spells... We would need a crystal tube with a neck and a cage and a cork to go in the cage, but that shouldn't be much trouble either, unless casting underwater is some sort of problem...
Can our mages already create basic crytal shields spontaneously? I recall us haiving a degree of general crystal manipulation and "create crystals on our boats facing the enemy boats for ramming and protecting sails and sailors and hulls and such" should be a simple enough general order if all our mages know how to create a temporary chunk of crystal in a simple shape...
Post by: Roboson on April 13, 2017, 07:46:53 pm
Post by: RAM on April 13, 2017, 10:19:45 pm
The pulse-jet would have the advantage of being more efficient than an orion drive, which is what we can currently do with fireballs.
Which gets me thinking.
Order: Use existing freestyle crystal formation and fireball technology to put an expendable armour shell behind our ships and then use fireballs against that armour as a form of propulsion.
Orion-drive, especially if you don't have the best shaped-shield, is horribly inefficient, but it is better than mages standing on deck playing cards while the enemy is outrunning us...
Oh, and I am a bit worried that animal-people might be a bit too generic and have massive penalties. We might have to start with cat-girls to fight at night and then work our way up to mermaids and disciplined giant scorpions...
Post by: evictedSaint on April 13, 2017, 10:31:10 pm
We might have to start with cat-girls to fight at night and then work our way up to mermaids
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: RAM on April 13, 2017, 11:01:06 pm
Post by: Azzuro on April 13, 2017, 11:44:21 pm
Quote
Bestial Splicing: 0
Arstotzkan Fireball Corps: 0
Dragon's Fireball: 0
Ministry of Integrity: 0
Darkvision: 0
Summon Crystal Wolves: 0
Summon Magic Detection Amulet: 0
Improved Frost Tower: 0
Anti-Magic Arrows: 0
Functional Anti-Magic Charms: VoidSlayer, StabbyMcStabStab, Roboson, Azzuro
Mega Fireball: 0
Ritual Sacrifice: 10ebbor10, FallacyofUrist, Andres
Gilded Guardian Gilda: 0
Fogships: 0
Voted for Functional Antimagic Charms
How exactly is it that we've introduced massed longbows, spammed fireballs, introduced terror tactics and swarms of heavy cavalry, yet still aren't making any progress when Moskurg hasn't shown anything new? Even in the sea, where we should be outnumbering them 2:1 in the West, and have more ranged combat power (longbows and fireballs), we still aren't making any headway.
And I'm quite annoyed that all this time, Moskurg has been getting the better of us with the whole chivalry v.s. pragmatism thing, until I questioned it.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 13, 2017, 11:55:13 pm
Ritual seems enticing and we are pragmatic. But it will piss the enemy off and it will make them no longer hold their moral code and return our prisoners. ( my guess anyway) if coin knowledge we murder al for powder batteries.
Post by: Roboson on April 14, 2017, 02:03:16 am
Yes, that is Sweet Home Alabama playing at 1 billion volts... repeatedly. With zero damage to the person in the suit. Physics don't lie, and they definately don't lie to the tune of classic country songs.
Furthermore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNxDgd3D_bU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNxDgd3D_bU)
If we're trying to keep physics as accurate as possible, lightning would actually be more likely to hit our armored soldiers, but do less damage to them than to unarmored soldiers (realistically, and I use that word literally here, it wouldn't harm them). As a result, our armor would counter lightning. However, since this is a game with magic, we can simply toss real physics out the window.
Post by: RAM on April 14, 2017, 02:27:08 am
Post by: evictedSaint on April 14, 2017, 02:29:37 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 14, 2017, 02:49:57 am
I'm gonna be honest, I'm getting kinda tired of this. You're comparing a 10,000 Watt tesla coil to a 10,000,000,000 Watt lightning strike.
On the other hand, his Tesla coil works for far longer than the fraction of a second that the lightning strike exist. That said, it is indeed a bad example. It only proves that the voltage of the lightning strike is incapable of doing damage.
A better example would be a car. Cars are perfect protection against lightning, due to a combination of the skin effect and being a metal box.
Edit : Oh, and using wattage is very misleading. Watt is expressed as joule/second, but no lightning strike last anywhere near to a second in duration.
Post by: andrea on April 14, 2017, 02:51:41 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 14, 2017, 02:53:48 am
We should make something loud and bright to scare their horses! Maybe we can tune the firballs to expel more noise and light? Or maybe fireball in a crystal to make flashbangs and shrapnel grenades?
Their horses jumped straight through barriers of fire. I'm pretty sure they're braindead and thus fearless, like all moskurgians.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 14, 2017, 02:54:50 am
We should make something loud and bright to scare their horses! Maybe we can tune the firballs to expel more noise and light? Or maybe fireball in a crystal to make flashbangs and shrapnel grenades?
Their horses jumped straight to barriers of fire. I'm pretty sure they're braindead and thus fearless, like all moskurgians.
So your saying we just need to make the fire walls hotter, wider and thicker so we can feast on horse meat.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 14, 2017, 02:55:47 am
But first, anti-magic.
Post by: Roboson on April 14, 2017, 02:57:35 am
But regardless of who is correct about the science (which short of an account of midevil knights getting hit by lightning, no one can say for certain), we should drop everything and invest in weather control. Its obviously much stronger than anything we're doing. We can make fireballs, with a temperature of 2000-9000 degrees, whereas for a similar cost, the enemy can summon lightning with a temperature of around 53,500 degrees (both in Fahrenheit). I mean, the power difference is inarguable. For their mages to be able to generate power many times more than ours over a large area for a longer duration of time, its no contest. We should counter with weather magic of our own.
We should make something loud and bright to scare their horses! Maybe we can tune the firballs to expel more noise and light? Or maybe fireball in a crystal to make flashbangs and shrapnel grenades?
The battle field is being constantly struck by lightning, the enemy is already doing the loud and bright thing, and it's not scaring their horses.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 14, 2017, 02:58:03 am
Ideally make them moveable as well, so as to sweep up the enemy forces.
But first, anti-magic.
With freeway on-ramps for arms and hearts as black as coal!
Wait wrong... nevermind.
You know, if we want to do bestial splicing, we should probably do it on our horses first. Or on the Moskurg troops, and turn them into chaos spawn.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 14, 2017, 03:02:37 am
But regardless of who is correct about the science (which short of an account of midevil knights getting hit by lightning, no one can say for certain), we should drop everything and invest in weather control. Its obviously much stronger than anything we're doing. We can make fireballs, with a temperature of 2000-9000 degrees, whereas for a similar cost, the enemy can summon lightning with a temperature of around 53,500 degrees (both in Fahrenheit). I mean, the power difference is inarguable. For their mages to be able to generate power many times more than ours over a large area for a longer duration of time, its no contest. We should counter with weather magic of our own.
Trying to catch up will always be a loosing game. Hell, I've got a feeling everything we try is a loosing game.
The Moskurgians have not deployed a new design in 2 years, and we haven't gained any ground, despite sacrificing a few areas to concentrate forces.
When the Moskurgians deployed horses, they captured much terrain. When we did, we accomplished nothing, despite the fact that our cavalry was said to be better.
Their wind spell is an instant hard counter against most of our designs (mist, bugs, ships, arrows) , but our fireballs do not do anything against their ships.
Post by: Roboson on April 14, 2017, 03:03:17 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 14, 2017, 03:06:18 am
Quick question: Are wizards used at sea?
Our fire insects were used at sea before the Moskurgians instant hard countered everything we had with a single design.
Post by: Roboson on April 14, 2017, 03:11:14 am
Quick question: Are wizards used at sea?
Our fire insects were used at sea before the Moskurgians instant hard countered everything we had with a single design.
Yes, but as far as I can tell, the enemy has absolutely no way of sinking our ships, and we have all of our mages shooting giant balls of fire at their ships. Which, at the very least, should be burning their sails and rending them immobile. Yet, we cannot gain any
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 14, 2017, 03:12:45 am
So we certainly are deploying wizards, it just appears that the Moskurgian wind spell is ridicously overpowered.
Post by: Roboson on April 14, 2017, 03:16:42 am
No, about mages not casting at sea.
After seeing this, I'd really like a GM answer to the question. I feel like we've missed something.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 14, 2017, 03:34:40 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 14, 2017, 04:07:12 am
No, about mages not casting at sea.
After seeing this, I'd really like a GM answer to the question. I feel like we've missed something.
I'm pretty sure we didn't, unless the rules changed, again.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 14, 2017, 04:12:11 am
Post by: Roboson on April 14, 2017, 04:19:51 am
No, about mages not casting at sea.
After seeing this, I'd really like a GM answer to the question. I feel like we've missed something.
I'm pretty sure we didn't, unless the rules changed, again.
I guess its just their weather magic. The only combat report that really points out how/why we're losing at sea is from 918. Apparently they can control the ocean enough to sink our ships without having to get close enough to get hit by fireballs.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 14, 2017, 04:23:19 am
We have done between nothing and zero designs for the ocean. Despite that we are at basic parity with them with our general designs. I would say that is about right.
Every single fireball design applies to the ocean.
Meanwhile, the Moskurgians have only their single wind spell.
Post by: Roboson on April 14, 2017, 04:33:09 am
We have done between nothing and zero designs for the ocean. Despite that we are at basic parity with them with our general designs. I would say that is about right.
Every single fireball design applies to the ocean.
Meanwhile, the Moskurgians have only their single wind spell.
No, I think that they have several wind spells. What confuses me is which are the expensive ones and which are the cheap ones. As far as I can tell, they have:
- Wind Spell (may have a seperate one for moving ships as opposed to deflecting arrows)
- Wind Shield
- Lightning
- Rain spell
- Ocean control
What I don't understand is how they're casting all of these AND their mind reading, AND their sleep spell, AND their radio spell, AND their homing arrows spell. It seems like almost all of their spells are very expensive or expensive strength levels, but they're casting all of them in all theaters. And it can't be that they have magical items like our charms, because we would have come across at least one from all the enemies we've captured.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 14, 2017, 05:15:38 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 14, 2017, 05:35:14 am
Which means they're all cheap, somehow.
I must say, I've really come to detest, even hate, the way stuff is hidden. You're acting completely blind, relying on just a few sentences from which you have to try and figure out what the enemy has done. Entire designs are simply forgotten because there is no way to keep track of what happened in past turns. No index, no lists, nothing.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 14, 2017, 09:22:58 am
Arstotzka has been using fireballs at sea the entire time.
However, their ships have the trade off of being worse at combat but having a higher bonus when landing troops. Moskurgs needed to develop research to do sea magic likely as a balancing mechanism - once they did things began tipping in their favor. Once Arstotzka shifted their ships back into one massive fleet, things became balanced again.
Post by: Azzuro on April 14, 2017, 10:31:35 am
Arstotzka has been using fireballs at sea the entire time.
However, their ships have the trade off of being worse at combat but having a higher bonus when landing troops. Moskurgs needed to develop research to do sea magic likely as a balancing mechanism - once they did things began tipping in their favor. Once Arstotzka shifted their ships back into one massive fleet, things became balanced again.
That ... doesn't exactly address ebbor's concerns. So all this time our ships have been worse at combat than Moskurg sailing ships? That wasn't mentioned in the opening post of this thread, where it was stated that our ships are slow, but can carry lots of troops. Nowhere was it stated that our ships are strictly worse at combat than those of Moskurg. A reasonable interpretation of this would be our ships are strategically slower to move from port to port than Moskurg, but as rowing ships are more manoeuvrable than sails, the two should be about equal in combat.
Again, Moskurg is receiving the advantage (better combat ships), whereas our advantage of landing more troops doesn't even apply until we've captured the whole coastline, which we would be hard-pressed to do given the Moskurg advantage. And again, none of us would have known this without you mentioning it, since nowhere is it stated that our losses at sea were due to our ships being worse at combat than those of Moskurg.
Overall, all this salt is coming because we have introduced several new things in the past two turns, where Moskurg has introduced none, and yet combat has not shifted an inch in our favour. The only possibilities are that Moskurg has developed some incredibly powerful and incredibly subtle magic that shifts combat, which is beyond your ability to reasonably describe or hint at without giving it away completely, or that we are not progressing because our designs don't address the mechanical reason why we're not winning, which is again due to the descriptions not adequately matching the underlying mechanics you're using for rolls.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 14, 2017, 10:39:14 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 14, 2017, 12:01:12 pm
Catgirl Assassins: Using the splicing magic we developed earlier for fire wasps, our mages have figured out how to splice the housecat with a human, giving them cat-like traits like cat ears on the top of their head, a tail, claws, and yellow eyes. Our men don't seem very interested in receiving this treatment. Maybe if it actually made them stronger or tougher. Our women, on the other hand... a small minority of women in Arstotzka have been wishing to fight for years, and are more than willing to receive this treatment if it means they can fight. And it does. This treatment, though unfortunately it induces some mental... changes... improves dexterity, senses, and stealth, creating the perfect assassin. Our Catgirl Assassins, when sent out at night, will be perfect for assassinating enemy mages and leaders.
Quote
Bestial Splicing: 0
Arstotzkan Fireball Corps: 0
Dragon's Fireball: 0
Ministry of Integrity: 0
Darkvision: 0
Summon Crystal Wolves: 0
Summon Magic Detection Amulet: 0
Improved Frost Tower: 0
Anti-Magic Arrows: 0
Functional Anti-Magic Charms: VoidSlayer, StabbyMcStabStab, Roboson, Azzuro
Mega Fireball: 0
Ritual Sacrifice: 10ebbor10, FallacyofUrist, Andres
Gilded Guardian Gilda: 0
Fogships: 0
Catgirl Assassins: 0
Post by: Roboson on April 14, 2017, 12:06:53 pm
EDIT: We could invest in summoning deadly scorpions or spiders to sneak into their camps and assassinate leaders and wizards. Since they're magical in nature they should avoid detection, and because they're small and we can summon a multitude of them, there's not a lot of defense against that. Even if they posted guards, in the jungle, there would be no way they could spot tiny black widows (or whatever) climbing through trees and into camps.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 14, 2017, 12:16:24 pm
But the question is: how magical does something have to be in order to avoid detection?
Post by: Roboson on April 14, 2017, 02:59:00 pm
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 14, 2017, 03:06:16 pm
Edit: Well if doing ritual stuff. Could still have war Jacks fueled by life energy of our dead prisoners.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 15, 2017, 01:23:52 am
Post by: OceanSoul on April 15, 2017, 06:42:06 am
Weather-specialized Anti-Magic: By focusing the intended magic prevention of our charms on a specific kind of magic (that dealing in wind and the sky), we can use other magics actively in making and sustaining the effect. It would not affect Moskurg's other magics, but then again, weather magic is 60% of their forces right now. They would be attempting to catch up on their other magics as the full might of the technologies their weather has countered (even those than didn't get a chance to affect the fights), giving us the advantage! It may seem like I intend for the effect to be very powerful, but that's what happens when you overspecialize; you base a majority of your power on the same weaknesses!
Post by: Roboson on April 15, 2017, 10:59:28 am
Post by: evictedSaint on April 15, 2017, 11:11:50 am
Post by: RAM on April 15, 2017, 06:00:39 pm
Quote
Bestial Splicing: 0
Arstotzkan Fireball Corps: 0
Dragon's Fireball: 0
Ministry of Integrity: 0
Darkvision: 0
Summon Crystal Wolves: 0
Summon Magic Detection Amulet: 0
Improved Frost Tower: 0
Anti-Magic Arrows: 0
Functional Anti-Magic Charms: 4; VoidSlayer, StabbyMcStabStab, Roboson, Azzuro
Mega Fireball: 0
Ritual Sacrifice: 3; 10ebbor10, FallacyofUrist, Andres
Gilded Guardian Gilda: 0
Fogships: 0
Catgirl Assassins: 1; RAM
I had a thought for revision. Take the malfunctioning heat completely out of our large fireball and convert it into a forceball. We have lesser balls for incendiary work, but focusing all the magic onto the force that causes the fire to spread out would give us something that ignores dampness and can inflict more immediate and deep injuries, immediately throwing riders from horses, horses onto riders, and breaking bones immediately for more stopping power at the cost of morale damage, which is probably redundant with our multiple fireball spells. If, perhaps, we were to find that these explosionbursts were capable of turning a jungle into a sea of splinter-bombs and a boat's hull into a boat's hull with a large hole at the water-line then, well...
Also, one of the Moskurgers gave us an informal usage of pokemon rules credit. They currently have horses. Horses are normal types, right? So we use ghost types then? Convert enemy prisoners into allied/bound ghosts/roaming-life-vacuum-that-goes-where-we-say? So long as it has no physical aspect and its mind is a tortured mess of gazing into the great truths of the afterlife that would roast any puny mortal that dared to share space within its mind...
Post by: evictedSaint on April 15, 2017, 10:14:52 pm
Well...it turns out we didn't really need diamonds, after all. The King was very happy to have the ones in his crown back.
Quartz works just as well, so long as the crystalline structure is pure enough. This is a fantastic development, as it means we can produce enough to give one to each squad to warn of casting being done on them in secret. This means our guards will get a warning if the enemy tries to lull them to sleep, or indeed try anything else that generates a magical field in their presence.
It still doesn't...quite...stop magic. Not yet, at least. They get too hot to hold, which means they ARE absorbing some magical energy from the air, but it's all lost to heat. There seems to be some mathematical relation between the energy produced and the magical field generated, but how we can increase the absorption enough to actively pull it from the air is beyond our understanding at the moment. The new math Jibril Saadiya developed - "Calculus" - is gaining some positive attention from our researchers as it seems to have more applications to the field of magic than initially thought. It's still an entirely useless method of math outside of magic applications, but it does explain a few phenomenon in our research. Jibril Saadiya argues that he just needs more time researching Anti-Magic charms before he can get them working. Our other researchers are skeptical that it's possible to do, but he is adamant that the math supports the concept. Expensive
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 15, 2017, 10:39:11 pm
Ground Wasp Swarm: A revised version of our fire wasps with the wings removed to avoid issues with the wind, the spell is also designed to use every bit of knowledge we have to make a spell cheaper and easier to use such as the knowledge gained from our revision on the minor fireball.
Post by: Roboson on April 15, 2017, 10:52:08 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 15, 2017, 10:57:25 pm
Revise anti-magic charms to include mathemagics.
I am intensely fond of this term.
Post by: RAM on April 16, 2017, 12:15:30 am
Redirect energy from heat to increase the explosive radius and force at its destination.
Post by: Azzuro on April 16, 2017, 12:31:39 am
Quote
Ground Wasp Swarm: 0
Revise Anti-Magic Charms to include Mathemagics: 1, Azzuro
Explosive fireballs: 0
Please quote this and add in your revisions and votes, to make it easier for the GM.
Post by: Roboson on April 16, 2017, 01:41:37 am
Quote
Ground Wasp Swarm: 0
Revise Anti-Magic Charms to include Mathemagics: 2, Roboson, Azzuro
Explosive fireballs: 0
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 16, 2017, 02:04:11 am
Post by: Azzuro on April 16, 2017, 07:56:06 am
Quote
Ground Wasp Swarm: 0
Revise Anti-Magic Charms to include Mathemagics: 2, Roboson, Azzuro
Explosive fireballs: 0
Order: Attack the Jungle instead of Desert, move Tower of Frost to Jungle: 1, Azzuro
I'm voting for it because it's looking like we're making zero progress on the Desert front, as it's functionally about the same as the plains. Furthermore, it's stated in the turn that one of Moskurg's remaining advantages in the Jungle is that they outnumber us there, so this will redress that. The Tower of Frost follows because we aren't using it anymore in the Desert, so it might as well follow us to the Jungle.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 16, 2017, 02:15:32 pm
Then deploy it to the jungle.
Post by: Roboson on April 16, 2017, 02:37:11 pm
Quote
Ground Wasp Swarm: 0
Revise Anti-Magic Charms to include Mathemagics: 3, Roboson, Azzuro, Tyrant Leviathan
Explosive fireballs: 1 RAM
Tower of Frost: 1, Voidslayer
Order: Move ToF to Jungle: 3, Azzuro, Voidslayer, Roboson
I'd like to propose a second order:
Order our Anti-wizard guard to capture wizards whenever possible and to recover the corpses of enemy wizards if they cannot be captured alive.
If we can get ahold of an enemy wizard, even an apprentice, we may be able to learn something from them (through diplomacy or terror).
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 16, 2017, 04:23:42 pm
We might want to wait till we make sure we have actually anti-magic that's reliable.QuoteGround Wasp Swarm: 0
Revise Anti-Magic Charms to include Mathemagics: 3, Roboson, Azzuro, Tyrant Leviathan, Stabbymcstabstab
Explosive fireballs: 1 RAM
Tower of Frost: 1, Voidslayer
Order: Move ToF to Jungle: 3, Azzuro, Voidslayer, Roboson, Stabbymcstabstab
I'd like to propose a second order:
Order our Anti-wizard guard to capture wizards whenever possible and to recover the corpses of enemy wizards if they cannot be captured alive.
If we can get ahold of an enemy wizard, even an apprentice, we may be able to learn something from them (through diplomacy or terror).
Post by: evictedSaint on April 16, 2017, 05:14:45 pm
We've done it!!!
Well, Jibril Saadiya has done it.
Magical energy has a property called "wavelength" - a term Jibril made up to reflect how this property is much like the waves of the ocean. By once again adjusting the spellwork that pulls magic from the air and collects it inside the confines of the crystal we've managed to produce a prototype that actually drains magic quickly enough to work as a counter-spell. It had something to do with matching the "phase sequence" of the quartz to the "natural wavelength" of magical interference. Magical energy conjured within range of the crystal is dissipated back into aether faster than it can be pulled - this dissipation was originally done through heat, but now only produces an annoying hum. Our researchers are still trying to understand the equations that comprise this new field of mathematics - now termed "Mathemagics".
During testing the anti-magic field has been shown to extend in a small sphere around the crystal, utterly preventing magic from being cast in or on the area. Curiously enough, it doesn't prevent fireballs from passing through the field (we extend our deepest apologies to the family of the apprentice who helped us discover this phenomenon), although it does prevent fireballs from being conjured within it. While our mages can't effectively carry the crystals into combat, we can distribute them to our commanders to give them some measure of protection. We are very pleased to note that the anti-magic pendants don't dispel conjured crystal constructs, likely due to the fact that it passively pulls magic from the air around it rather than actively working to break down the crystal structure. Expensive.
Confirm Orders
A) Capture enemy mages for interrogation if possible; if not, recover their corpses.
B) Abandon assault on the Desert, shift troops to Jungle. Deploy Myark and Tower of Frost here.
Post by: andrea on April 16, 2017, 05:29:21 pm
Post by: Azzuro on April 16, 2017, 06:10:18 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 16, 2017, 06:26:06 pm
B I guess until we can upgrade the damn thing.
Lets make an anti mage capture team as a revision before we try A.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 16, 2017, 06:27:54 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 16, 2017, 06:29:20 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 16, 2017, 07:06:03 pm
Post by: RAM on April 16, 2017, 07:22:35 pm
A If we have anti-magic charms, we can reassign the guards away from our thanes towards actually killing mages (because now they're redundant). Plus, if we outfit them with charms as well, the enemy won't be able to read their minds. At the very least if we're already using them to kill mages, we may be able to just maim one or two and capture them, or recover their bodies to see if we can learn anything from them.This exactly. I was actually considering reassigning the guards to our mages, but this is probably better.
Oh, and I didn't vote for explosive fireballs. One of the blessings of this thread is that folk seem to have adopted not voting fro their own stuff. I feel that you get a much more accurate result of what people actually want if you don't spread your votes out so that there is one for each set of proposals and then a couple of people who didn't nominate anything basically decide it. And then there is the terrifying threat of people with multiple accounts, not that anyone would do that.
Post by: Roboson on April 16, 2017, 10:58:51 pm
"Calculus" ... It's still an entirely useless method of math outside of magic applications...
Also, I meant to mention this yesterday, but since we;re awaiting a combat phase, I thought I'd bring it up. This whole bit about calculus, that was hilarious.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 16, 2017, 11:38:16 pm
Post by: Light forger on April 17, 2017, 01:30:12 am
Post by: RAM on April 18, 2017, 06:38:45 pm
"light forger" likes crystal magic...
lasers?
Post by: evictedSaint on April 18, 2017, 08:56:49 pm
The hold up is the fact that the combat results don't seem to be reflecting the state of research between both nations. It's been frustrating me for a while now - due to the way advantages and counters are handled, I'm having trouble making the combat engine behave in a way that makes sense.
For example, a while back you guys should have been making progress in the jungle while Moskurg wasn't producing anything new. You produced newer fireballs and your anti-magic pendants, which SHOULD have given you enough advantage to make the battles more than a stalemate. That didn't happen, since combat results are calculated from specific unit bonuses that don't quite take advantage of the nuances in a certain scenario. I love you guys, but this turn Moskurg just blew through you - and since I have knowledge of both sides capabilities I can say objectively that that should not be happening.
In all honesty, I'm tempted to abandon Iituem's python file altogether and move to the system that Sensei uses - simply determining how both sides are doing from a practical standpoint, figuring out how a new piece of technology would affect the battlefield, and progressing from there to subjectively determine which side gains/loses ground in an area based on what would be effective in what area. This would mean changing the system mid-way through the game, though, and I'm not sure that's fair to either side.
Post by: Light forger on April 18, 2017, 09:17:57 pm
...Nah more like dark souls crystal magic, can't support the filthy Moskurg miracle users!
"light forger" likes crystal magic...
lasers?
Sorry about the wait, guys.I would just say go ahead since after all how useful something is based off of your own biases so it's not like your adding them into a system. Ultimately a huge part of the game is decided by how you perceive the difference in effect of rolls on what the design does. Even with an "impartial" system the game still had the "salt moment" so it's not like you even won there. So I support the move, if the other side is ok with it of course.
The hold up is the fact that the combat results don't seem to be reflecting the state of research between both nations. It's been frustrating me for a while now - due to the way advantages and counters are handled, I'm having trouble making the combat engine behave in a way that makes sense.
For example, a while back you guys should have been making progress in the jungle while Moskurg wasn't producing anything new. You produced newer fireballs and your anti-magic pendants, which SHOULD have given you enough advantage to make the battles more than a stalemate. That didn't happen, since combat results are calculated from specific unit bonuses that don't quite take advantage of the nuances in a certain scenario. I love you guys, but this turn Moskurg just blew through you guys - and since I have knowledge of both sides capabilities I can say objectively that that should not be happening.
In all honesty, I'm tempted to abandon Iituem's python file altogether and move to the system that Sensei uses - simply determining how both sides are doing from a practical standpoint, figuring out how a new piece of technology would affect the battlefield, and progressing from there to subjectively determine which side gains/loses ground in an area based on what would be effective in what area. This would mean changing the system mid-way through the game, though, and I'm not sure that's fair to either side.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 18, 2017, 10:52:49 pm
: Going to writing board for designs.:
Post by: Andres on April 18, 2017, 10:56:52 pm
Moskurg returns the favor with arrows of their own, pelting our men.Why are Moskurg arrows even a factor? Shields stopped being used because full plate made them obsolete for those who used it, and ALL our troops wear full plate. Their arrows should do diddly squat against us, especially since they don't have the power or AP capability of longbows or crossbows.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 18, 2017, 11:00:48 pm
This is what your standard officer looks like. Keep in mind, this is one unit out of forty that I have to parse through when I'm trying to figure out stuff like "why does giving Arstotzka cheap archers cause them to get their shit wrecked".
Code: [Select]
A.add_unit('officers')
A.add_unit_stat('officers', 'infantry', 2)
A.add_unit_stat('officers', 'defence', 1)
A.add_unit_stat('officers', 'counter support skirmish', 2)###antimagic
A.add_unit_stat('officers', 'skirmish', 'support')###antimagic
A.add_unit_stat('officers', 'support', 'ranged')
A.add_unit_stat('officers', 'skirmish', 'primary')
A.add_unit_stat('officers', 'melee', 'primary')
A.add_unit_stat('officers', 'rout', 'primary')
A.add_unit_stat('officers', 'bodyguard', 1) ###Anti-Magic gem charms.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 18, 2017, 11:25:53 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 18, 2017, 11:32:53 pm
Post by: RAM on April 19, 2017, 12:21:41 am
Post by: andrea on April 19, 2017, 03:18:31 am
This is the first time it is used anyway, unexpected results are expected.
Post by: Andres on April 19, 2017, 04:13:16 am
To be perfectly honest? I'm not sure. There's about thirty or forty different units spread across both sides that provide multiple bonuses to differing phases of combat and counter support against enemy units.My advice is get rid of all these things. Make it narrative focused and add dice rolls to represent how things generally go, but none of this in-depth separate unit mechanics and such. Our plate armour should make our troops nigh invincible against their spears, sabers, and pathetic recurve bows.
This is what your standard officer looks like. Keep in mind, this is one unit out of forty that I have to parse through when I'm trying to figure out stuff like "why does giving Arstotzka cheap archers cause them to get their shit wrecked".Code: [Select]A.add_unit('officers')
A.add_unit_stat('officers', 'infantry', 2)
A.add_unit_stat('officers', 'defence', 1)
A.add_unit_stat('officers', 'counter support skirmish', 2)###antimagic
A.add_unit_stat('officers', 'skirmish', 'support')###antimagic
A.add_unit_stat('officers', 'support', 'ranged')
A.add_unit_stat('officers', 'skirmish', 'primary')
A.add_unit_stat('officers', 'melee', 'primary')
A.add_unit_stat('officers', 'rout', 'primary')
A.add_unit_stat('officers', 'bodyguard', 1) ###Anti-Magic gem charms.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 19, 2017, 04:15:27 am
Post by: evictedSaint on April 19, 2017, 10:45:19 pm
Magic has taken off.
Our men are spending weeks worth of wages on paper cards, which then they compile into decks of many paper cards. They then put these pieces of paper down one-by-one in games that last seemingly forever, then scream with joy or despair when the victor is determined. It's silly and ridiculous, but it keeps them out of trouble. The medics stationed in the area report fewer cases of sexually transmitted diseases occurring among our troops, likely due to the decreased amount of sex they've been having.
Aside from these fictitious "card battles", no combat occurs in the mountains.
No battles occur in the mountains.
The only battle that occurs in the border between the plains and the tangia is an impromtu snowball fight between two squads of Arstotzkan troops. There are no casualties, thankfully.
No battles occur in the plains.
Battle in the desert has not been going in our favor, and the theatre commander withdraws into the mountains. We'll return some day, but not today. Let those cowardly Moskurgs hide in their sands.
No battles occur in the desert.
Almost as if the war had been waiting for an excuse to intensify, the jungle is painted red with blood this year.
Moskurg skirmishers are stymied as they attempt to lull guards to sleep. Our men are happy to note that their attempts fail every time, and the high-pitch hum the anti-magic charms produce alert our troops of imminent attack. We are able to mobilize quickly in response. Ambushes turn into full-fledged melees which Moskurg then lose with their smaller skirmishing force. The battles are still costly, but we come out ahead. Their men are decked out with padded armor and small bucklers - even their calvary! Without the advantage of surprise or adequate protection, our longbowmen slaughter their troops easily. Officers aren't immune either; their scalemail is decent at turning a blow from an axe or a sword, but an ash arrow cast from a four foot long bow punches right through it. The jungle provides some cover and favor their compound bows over our longbows, but they simply don't have any way of successfully ambushing us any more.
Our ambushes don't go much better, though. The Tower of Frost keeps the territory temperate, which our cold-acclimated men are thankful for. Comfort doesn't help, though, even if it does make wearing heavy plate bearable. They can easily our men coming during ambushes. Our fog is too dense to blow away, but by its very nature informs them of an incoming attack. Furthermore, the clanking of our armor tips them off if we try to bring heavy troops in to fight. Their arrows can't penetrate except at point-blank, but with mass volleys coming down on our heads it's not hard for a few to find their way into gaps and eyeslits. Our heavy calvary ends up doing the majority of the skirmishes. Our charges are devastating when they hit, smashing into their lightly-armored (or not-at-all armored) men with our crystal lances. We have trouble doing much damage with the thick mud and dense foliage hampering our heavy shire horses, but we come out slightly ahead. As per orders, our Elite Anti-Mage forces attempt to capture an enemy mage. Equipped with anti-magic charms, they ride in in the middle of the night and drag him away screaming. As they disappear into the jungle, through the dark and the rain, a single, massive, powerful bolt of lightning comes down with a glow that turns the world to day for a brief second. Apparently, the apprentice manages to squirm and gain a few feet of distance from our men, putting him just out of range of the charms. The lightning bolt that he called down upon himself was bright, brilliant, and bigger than anything we'd ever seen before. The apprentice- known to the Moskurgs as Brave Maealij Albarq - was posthumous named a Master Wizard by their mages and immortalized for his sacrifice. Two dice rolls at disadvantage: [1!, 3]. Moskurg gains a Martyr.
The battles during the day begin to grow uglier. Rain is non-stop, and lightning touches down every few seconds striking trees and steel-clad soldiers alike. Likewise, fireballs stream through the foliage indiscriminately. Fires claw at tree trunks only to be put out within seconds by the downpour. Where the fireballs do hit their men scream and die horrible, agonizing deaths. Arstotzkan soldiers are braver and do not scream when lightning strikes - likely because they are instantaneously cooked inside their welded-shut armor coffins. Their fellow soldiers get incredibly upset by this, bemoaning about 'realism' and 'faraday cages'. Moskurgs just laugh in their filthy gutter language, and our men vow revenge against those who would so blatantly flout reality.
With their troops lightly armored and massed, our theatre commander decides to start off with a sudden, powerful charge from our heavy calvary. They can't maintain formation in the dense undergrowth, but there's enough of them it doesn't matter. Gleaming lances of magic crystal are clutched in the hands of each horseman, but just before they slam into the enemy troops they all vanish into a puff of smoke. It's a shock to the horsemen as their weapons disappear from their grasp, leaving them unarmed in the midst of enemy spearmen. It's not even close - only one in ten make it back to our lines. Our men are dead silent as our wounded and decimated calvary are shuffled off the field. That battle went poorly, but now we know they have some new brand of magic that dispels our crystal weapons.
Without our heavy calvary, we fall back to ranged combat and arrows begin to pelt both sides, making up the majority of the combat done by non-magical troops. Our arrows skewer their unarmored troops, and their arrows tend to clatter harmlessly off our rusted steel plate. Frustratingly, however, their arrows have a habit of finding their way through gaps and eyeslits with uncanny frequency. It doesn't kill as many as it would unarmored troops, thankfully, but it's still annoying. However, once our foot soldiers join with theirs it's no contest. Our armored axemen hack through padded armor easily, but it takes two or three Moskurgs to bring down a single Arstotzkan. Once again, our commanders are met with the same fate as our horsemen - the gleaming crystal axes, once the mark of their leadership, are returned to non-existence once in range of their battle lines. Our commanders become easy prey, and without leadership our men eventually turn and flee back north. Moskurg takes many prisoners, but unlike before they aren't released to us. They don't even ordain to tell us what they've done with our men - unease settles into the stomachs of our troops and imaginations run wild. With some relief, however, our crystal axes remain firm in our hands when Moskurg presses north. Their troops, while more plentiful, are utterly inferior to Arstotzkan armored troopers. Our fireballs blast through their men easily, and giant walls of fire section off entire areas of combat. It's still a tough battle - we lost many from our earlier disastrous assault. The battle is fairly even - Moskurg is too cowardly to use their lightning during combat, and it seems like we're about to turn the tied...until their calvary successfully flanks us. Without our own heavy calvary to turn the tide, we're left at a disadvantage. Lightly armored and armed with shitty lances, they turn the battle just barely in their favor, and though they're forced to eventually pull back We lose more men than they do.
Spoiler: Wizard Battle (click to show/hide)
We don't lose ground, at least. Both sides lost a lot of men - both nations have almost their entire army centered in this territory. We hold on, but another battle like that and we are pushed out of the jungle.
Our theatre commander is enraged. The anti-magic charms we've developed have limited range and prevent the enemy from casting on them, but that doesn't do anything against lightning called down from the sky. The only spell they seem to have that targets our men is their sleep spell, and while it helps during the night it isn't doing enough. If we could have it keep their arrows from going through eyeslits or stop them from casting their weather magic altogether, then it'd at least be useful for full combat. But - and more pressingly - he's infuriated that the crystal lances we've outfitted our calvary with go up in smoke when charging the enemy lines. Thank God the entire army wasn't outfitted with those things, or we'd be building barricades on our homelands next year. We'll switch our officers and our calvary to conventional weapons until the problem is fixed, but he doesn't place much faith in you. He also gripes about the Tower of Frost - while it does make wearing full plate armor bearable in the normally hot jungle, it isn't the "Dooms Day" weapon he was lead to believe. He also points out that we've never had a skirmish we can point to as a "complete success" and the lack thereof is hurting our chances of pushing Moskurg from the jungle.
Neither side gains ground in the jungle.
Both sides seem evenly matched in the western sea. Arstotzkan ships are large, sturdy, and slow. Moskurg ships are fast, light, and fragile. Their wind magic helps them move quickly here, scurrying around and flanking our ships when they can. Thankfully, their storms don't hassle us too badly since storms cause the entire sea to roil regardless of they make it rain. We are too slow to catch them, though we do spout fireballs out of the fog whenever they get too close. Without a definite advantage for either side, neither gains victory. Battles tend to be both sides standing a distance away, pelting one another with arrows and fireballs before retreating back to port. Once again, neither side gains ground here.
The theatre commander urges you to develop some way to speed our ships along - or even develop a lighter skirmisher that can support our heavy troop transporters. He also waves his hands wildly as he describes a giant fireball spell so big that no Moskurg could ever hope to dodge it. He demands you develop something of that nature to kill those cowardly Moskurg sailors before they can flee.
Neither side makes coastal gains in the Western Sea.
It is 923, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 923 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 20, 2017, 12:02:35 am
Anyway, how is the relative status of armed forces?
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 20, 2017, 12:09:33 am
Calculation Crystal: In conjuring wave length energy we have come to construct a artificial mind. With a steel body frame the energy ball Mind in turn can be a magic automation of mad war. ( Makes War Jacks.)
Whale Troops: For navy. Splice voltuneers with whales so as the cowards focus on dodging our boats, these guys swim under or board from side to rip them a new one.
Arsenal Runes:Series of runes that when used acted as guns. Acid, owlet bombs, darts, shards/shrapnel, that sort of thing.
Artificial Life: Instead of summoning artificial crystal beings how about rapid mutating loyal life forms that with time evolve to tear off Moskugian faces?
Swarm Ball: A fire ball of extreme mass, that breaks apart into a salvo to carpet bomb targeted zones.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 20, 2017, 12:22:06 am
Post by: andrea on April 20, 2017, 12:30:05 am
Post by: Roboson on April 20, 2017, 12:38:54 am
I propose for this phase we invest in Animal Control. We've already have a good basis with wasps, if we can expand this to get some level of greater control, we can use it to plague the enemy with all sorts of things. Especially if we get it good enough to control their horses. They took our crystal weapons, we'll take their horses.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 20, 2017, 01:05:33 am
Looks like they've abandoned chivalry, so at least they won't have that moral bonus.
I propose for this phase we invest in Animal Control. We've already have a good basis with wasps, if we can expand this to get some level of greater control, we can use it to plague the enemy with all sorts of things. Especially if we get it good enough to control their horses. They took our crystal weapons, we'll take their horses.
Much better idea. I also think we should find something to null their lightning.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 20, 2017, 01:11:46 am
I've written out the combat report to explain how equipment is affecting the battle and why things play out the way they do. This should give you a better understanding of how your designs are being used and how they're working against the enemy's. I've also included a section detailing the theatre commanders wishlist - what he would like to see developed or fixed. Take it with a grain of salt; it's simply the point of view from the boots on the ground. I also tweaked the equipment and spell list to look nicer.
One question :
Quote
He also points out that we've never had a skirmish we can point to as a "complete success" and the lack thereof is hurting our chances of pushing Moskurg from the jungle
What is stopping us from having succesfull skirmishes. We have
+ Skirmish bonus
+ Magic Fog
+Terrain bonus
+ magic detecting crystal
+ longbows
+ more apprentices to cast spells
While the Moskurgians have :
-
-
+Compound bows
Also, a note to others. Unlike Moskurg, we will not have the benefit of a broken game system that prevents the opponent from advancing while we assemble our forces. We need to make something that us usefull now.
Advanced Tower of Forever Frost : Through tge use of more permanent spells, our tower can be far stronger and oprrate with far less attending wizards.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 20, 2017, 06:45:49 am
Post by: Azzuro on April 20, 2017, 07:33:49 am
Also, evictedSaint, did the Moskurgs switch to Terror?
Gotta say, their ability to dispel conjured crystals pretty much makes a huge chunk of our research useless. Unless we can find a way to use the crystal without bringing it near the enemy...
Design: Firecrystal Ballistae
Arstotzkan mages research a way to infuse conjured crystal with the same elemental fire used in our fireballs. The firecrystal is warm to the touch, and will explode in a fireball when dispelled or shattered on contact. It is used to craft the bolts for a newly designed ballista, capable of being ship-mounted and helping us win the seas with a range advantage.
Quote
Animal Control: 0
Advanced Tower of Forever Frost: 1, Azzuro
Firecrystal Ballistae: 0
Post by: evictedSaint on April 20, 2017, 07:56:49 am
Also, evictedSaint, did the Moskurgs switch to Terror?Yes
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 20, 2017, 09:20:32 am
Cat Eyes: We can splice the eyes of a housecat with the eyes of our troops to make them look scarier(and give them better night vision).
Probably not the wonder weapon we're looking for, though.
Actually, y'know what? I'll think Tyrant may be on to something with his underwater troops.
Dolphin Splicing: We can splice the body of a dolphin with our naval troops to make them essentially dolphin-men. We'll probably get less volunteers for this procedure than Cat Eyes, but it'll be worth it: our Dolphins can move with great speed through the water, far quicker than a ship or a whale, and can easily board and surprise-attack our foes. Sensing spells? No problem, we have anti-magic amulets!
Actually, anti-magic amulets means we can try Catgirl Assassins again, though I don't think it's the best choice right now.
Catgirl Assassins: Using the splicing magic we developed earlier for fire wasps, our mages have figured out how to splice the housecat with a human, giving them cat-like traits like cat ears on the top of their head, a tail, claws, and yellow eyes. Our men don't seem very interested in receiving this treatment. Maybe if it actually made them stronger or tougher. Our women, on the other hand... a small minority of women in Arstotzka have been wishing to fight for years, and are more than willing to receive this treatment if it means they can fight. And it does. This treatment, though unfortunately it induces some mental... changes... improves dexterity, senses, and stealth, creating the perfect assassin. Our Catgirl Assassins, when sent out at night, will be perfect for assassinating enemy mages and leaders.
This idea may be a bit better.
Anti-Weather Balloons: Our mages have figured out how to derive "helium", which has the curious property of being lighter than air. This lets us send balloons up to the clouds... where we can mess with them using the moisture-sapping fog spell we will invent in the revision phase.
But best of all...
Hail Tower: Our Tower of Forever Frost has greatly amplified power now. Part of it directed upwards in a wide area... turning rain to hail. What will a hailstone do against plate mail? What will a hailstone do to an unarmored skull?
Quote
Animal Control: 0For the moment, I'll support Whale Troops, though, since it's closest to what I would desire.
Advanced Tower of Forever Frost: 1, Azzuro
Firecrystal Ballistae: 0
Whale Troops: 1, FallacyofUrist
Cat Eyes: 0
Dolphin Splicing: 0
Catgirl Assassins: 0
Anti-Weather Balloons: 0
Hail Tower: 0
In the revision phase, we should probably do something about that dispelling of our crystal, though.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 20, 2017, 04:38:55 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 20, 2017, 04:52:19 pm
Now is not the time for untested, useless spells.
Post by: Light forger on April 20, 2017, 05:13:19 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 20, 2017, 06:14:17 pm
Quote
Animal Control: 0correct me if i'm wrong please.
Advanced Tower of Forever Frost: 1, Azzuro, LightForger, 10ebbor10, Stabby,
Firecrystal Ballistae: 0
Whale Troops: 1, FallacyofUrist
Cat Eyes: 0
Dolphin Splicing: 0
Catgirl Assassins: 0
Anti-Weather Balloons: 0
Hail Tower: 0
Post by: evictedSaint on April 20, 2017, 11:24:36 pm
It's relatively dangerous working on the Tower of Frost. Developing this technology in the north runs the risk of plunging the entire country into a new iceage, and our hold on the warm jungles to the west is tenuous at best. Even so, we manage to develop some changes through Mathemagics that can amplify the towers effects.
The tower brings the temperature of a theatre down even further by adjusting the spell circles inscribed on the top to work in-phase with one another. The angles between the circles were close, but through some careful adjustment (using yet another brand-new field of mathematics our researchers refer to as "Trigonometry" - again utterly useless outside of magical applications, much like calculus) we've streamlined the design. A nice by-product is that the spell will no longer "cook-off" if the circles are disrupted, instead automatically shutting off the magical energy being drawn into the world. We can also adjust the temperature change through use of a magical dial - our mages refer to this as the "Automagical Control", or "AC" for short.
The tower is still expensive, however, and utterly immobile once built. We've yet to test it in the jungle, but our men are hopeful to see snow once more. National Effort.
Post by: Roboson on April 20, 2017, 11:41:02 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 20, 2017, 11:47:49 pm
We have a metal item bonus, which will automatically make the item cheaper as soon as we revise it. Thus, we can use the actual revision to improve it.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 21, 2017, 12:08:57 am
Post by: RAM on April 21, 2017, 12:38:25 am
Dispelling our lances is mighty powerful nonsense, must bring ruination to evil of moskurg! Well, what is allowing them to do that? Is it somehow naturally killing the crystals or is it directed magic? The crystals seem really sturdy. And therwe was no evidenc of natural phenomena... So it must be magic, right? We have antimagic, right?
Okay, we shelve the normal crystals, they just became too vulnerable, very sad but all this does is make crystals more expensive. But in exchange for being expensive they last longer, we already had that but didn't invest much in it...
Crystal conversion:
We reorganise all our crystal summoning to our existing gem-sustained crystals and revise the gems to maintain both the crystal-construct and a small anti-magic field that is channeled over the crystal's presence, thus rendering the crystal-constructs immune to additional magical effects being introduced nto their presence. Given that the existing gem-sustained crystal-construct magic can already be sustained permenantly if it is checked on by a wizard regularly, and that just involves strengthening the existing spell and not introducing any more, it shouldn't pose a problem for the weapons themselves. Essentially, this would render our crystal-constructs completely immune to all magical effects other than those present at the time of their being summoned. Well, that or something so massive that it could overwhelm the capacity of the antimagic.
It may seem small to just resist the current effect, and at the cost of switching exclusively to the more expensive gem-based crystals, but if we could then go on to produce a crystal shield of some sort, maybe an upside-down cart formed of crystal, with wheels and arrow-slits and a man-sized fireball wand housed in some sort of rotating dome on top of it... If the thing were impervious to magical attacks, and formed from steel-strong crystals five-centimetres thick, well... Granted, getting the things to move would be difficult, maybe we would need to develop pulse-jets first, but that should be easy...
And then again there is the issue of caltrops. Perhaps we could revise them to form around gem fragments? Or somehow extend the spell from a remote location?
Antimagic arrows:
Incorporate antimagic charms into an alternate form that only lasts a few minutes before crumbling to dust but is more powerful/numerous. These can be fired amongst enemy wizards immediately-prior to contact with the enemy to briefly disrupt their spellcasting.
Advanced Tower of Forever Frost: Fighting Form
Use temporary magic-crystal structures to create guide-structures for ice-crystals to form. Use this to construct a grand ice-structure at the base of the Forever Frost Tower. This structure will basically be four wheels on fat stilts that will be drawn under the tower as it moves forward, pushing it up on top of them in the process. The ice-axles will be attached to massive ice-weights that will force the wheels to rotate, pushing the tower forward into the middle of the battle0field. Where does the ice come from? The tower will turn its cold all the way up and turn its focus all the way in, resulting in extreme cold immediately outside the tower, building an impenetrable wall of thick ice all around it and along any near surfaces, such as thin crystal formations... We just need a team of stout shires to push it forards initially to get it onto its own wheels. The effect is to have the tower charge into enemy lines and then emit a wave of frost that renders a section of the battlefield of our choosing uninhabitable. We can then move in at great expense in the form of sacrificial fire-wasps and wasted firballs, along with our natural hardiness, to secure the region before the tower can revert to normal operation or choose a new target for englaciation. Obviously the interior of the tower would be outside of its own effect, and heavily insulated, with fireplaces and hot cocoa and little jars of firewasps...
Okay, that is a bit ambitious, for now it would just be "Frost tower makes only its immediate area lethally cold if it comes under direct attack." which would be a defensive bonus, which doesn't seem like what we need right now.
Advanced Forever Frost: Hail Mode
It concentrates its magic to extend its range, effectively shooting a beam into clouds to turn them from rainclouds into hailclouds.
Again, possibly steering a bit close to new magic for a revision.
Longboats:
Not sea-worthy alone, but they can be towed alongside a longship and deployed for battle. With no need for supplies and further reduced weight by thinning the wood and cladding it in metal to maintain the surdiness as much as possible. These smaller versions of the longships are capable enough to operate in the calmer seas of most battles and bear the agility to harass enemy forces ass they withdraw. They wouldn't match well against a broadside with most of their armament pushed to the front to make space for oars, but if the enemy turns to engage them, then the longships can catch up and show them why broadsides are better with longbows and fireballs. This may also reduce losses as broken ships can be evacuated.
Code: [Select]
0 = Cheaper Broadswords:
1 = Betty Bradsword: RAM
0 = Bigger Fireballs:
0 = Crystal Conversion:
0 = Antimagic Arrows:
0 = Advanced Tower of Forever Frost: Fighting Form:
0 = Advanced Forever Frost: Hail Mode:
0 = Longboats:
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 21, 2017, 04:14:47 am
Quote
= Cheaper Broadswords:
2 = Betty Bradsword: RAM, 10ebbor10
0 = Bigger Fireballs:
0 = Crystal Conversion:
0 = Antimagic Arrows:
0 = Advanced Tower of Forever Frost: Fighting Form:
0 = Advanced Forever Frost: Hail Mode:
0 = Longboats
On a side note, I wonder what'll happen if we deploy our superior frost tower at max coollness in the plains.
Post by: andrea on April 21, 2017, 04:16:27 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 21, 2017, 04:18:25 am
Afaik, using a frost tower at full in the plains would be the same as using the old version in the Taiga.
Post by: andrea on April 21, 2017, 04:44:43 am
edit: how much do you think the jungle will last with the constant abuse both sides are doing? constant rain, wind, fireballs, now freezing, maybe hail in the future.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 21, 2017, 06:23:25 am
Post by: andrea on April 21, 2017, 06:33:35 am
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 21, 2017, 10:45:43 am
Quote
0= Cheaper Broadswords:This seems like a good idea, but we might want to start revising our ship design someday.
3 = Betty Bradsword: RAM, 10ebbor10, Stabby
0 = Bigger Fireballs:
0 = Crystal Conversion:
0 = Antimagic Arrows:
0 = Advanced Tower of Forever Frost: Fighting Form:
0 = Advanced Forever Frost: Hail Mode:
0 = Longboats
Post by: evictedSaint on April 21, 2017, 10:55:10 am
Our better understanding of metal working has allowed us to design a broadsword that stands up to abuse with greater success. A channel down the blade removes unneeded material, making it lighter. The edges are made of hardened steel and are more resistant to nicks. And perhaps most importantly, the pommel is removable to allow our soldiers to throw them at fleeing enemies - thus "ending them rightly." The new design is cheap enough that we can outfit our entire army with them, but some soldiers still prefer the good old "axe and shield" for jungle combat as the broadsword requires more room to be swung. Cheap.
Post by: Andres on April 21, 2017, 01:13:07 pm
And perhaps most importantly, the pommel is removable to allow our soldiers to throw them at fleeing enemies - thus "ending them rightly."Finally! Something that solves our problem of not being able to kill routing enemies!
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on April 22, 2017, 03:50:50 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 22, 2017, 04:02:40 pm
I wish to submit an order to have a squad outfitted with crystal axes and antimagic, to determine if the antimagic can protect the crystals.
I'd vote against this. If the squad is defeated, the enemy could capture our anti-magic charms and learn how to use them.
Post by: RAM on April 22, 2017, 05:59:34 pm
I am actually going to vote for my own order here. Orders seems like something that you can vote for as many as you want, so I doubt that the normal penalties of self-voting apply as strongly and I really want to get some research done so I am straight up calling in my Evil side for this one...
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 22, 2017, 10:27:39 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 22, 2017, 10:30:28 pm
I thought it was quite clear that our lances were being destroyed by our own anti magic charms.
Uhhhh no. Nowhere does it say that and our calvary doesn't even have anti-magic charms.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 22, 2017, 11:51:36 pm
The jungle is plunged into freezing temperatures this year.
Plants begin to wither and die as freezing rains douse the undergrowth in the summer and snow thinly blankets the land in the winter for the first time in thousands of years. The inclement weather falls mostly on our own troops due to the cursed Moskurg weather control, but our men are delighted to see the snow after years of being deployed in the hot, humid jungle. A snowball fight breaks out on the first snowfall of the year, but the commanders quickly put a stop to that. It wouldn't do to be fooling about with snow when Moskurg attacks, after all. Despite this stance, a snowman appears outside of the officers tents and remains there for as long as the snow lasts. The freezing rains receive a less-enthusiastic welcome than the snow - especially considering it rains on our half of the jungle exclusively year-round. Still, the Moskurgs who are even less acclimated to the cold than we are will find it an unpleasant surprise during their assault.
Our skirmishes find more success during the winter than they do in the summer. Despite it being nice and dry in Moskurg territory, their soldiers huddle together and curse the cold that seeps across the border into their encampments. We take advantage of this lapse in attention to launch a few surprise attacks, gaining some success. Our men tend to shed their plate armor for these attacks for extra stealth, creeping close in the freezing dark before lighting them up with fireballs and brutal swings from their axes. Moskurg returns the favor in kind - their light calvary charges into our encampments in the dead of night, leaping through our crystal caltrops without stumbling. They seem to have given up lulling our men to sleep in favor of flat-out surprise attacks. It's infuriating as we can't figure out exactly how they've surpassed our caltrops. Perhaps the spellwork they've weaved last year to dispell our crystal weapons has somehow become more mobile? The end result is that both sides do terrific damage to one another.
In main combat we've begun noticing a few of their wizards wielding long, ivory staffs in select areas. These locations seem to be where our crystal weapons vanish into thin air; our calvary troops have abandoned their crystal lances entirely, and officers carry a broadsword as back up with their crystal axes. With this change their crystal-dispelling magic isn't as effective - it is nice to note, however, the wizards wielding the ivory staffs make lovely targets for our anti-mage troopers. They're shot dead wherever they appear. Additionally, our broadswords are extra effective against their unarmored troops when used. Some of our men still prefer axe and shield in the dense undergrowth (which is growing less dense as the Tower of Frost does its work) but we're dealing tremendous damage.
Moskurg offensives occur almost entirely during the summer, when the clouds cooperate and allow lightning to be called down from above. They've taken on a new tactic for their assaults as well. The mages wielding staffs do their best to get in range of our wizards, and when they do our mages see fireballs fizzle out on their fingertips. This is only a temporary problem, however - the ivory staffs are very noticeable, and the users are very vulnerable to arrows. That, coupled with the ease at which broadswords cleave through unarmored troops, sends Moskurg soldiers fleeing soon after each attack. A cheer goes up from our men as we force Moskurg back and take a section of the jungle from them. The tower is disassembled and rebuilt closer to the front lines, emboldening our troops. It's about time we caught a break!
Spoiler: Wizard Battle (click to show/hide)
The Theatre Commander is pleased with our progress. He commends the increased supply of broadswords and is already thinking of ways to use the Tower of Frost, which up until this point had seemed useless. Perhaps you could design a giant fireball that blasts down on Moskurg troops? Or better yet, attach wheels to the base and let us wheel the frightening, massive tower into their battlelines like a giant mobile castle.
Arstotzka gains ground in the jungle.
With no new advancements to be used on the seas, neither side makes advancements here.
The Theatre Commander once again complains of the how difficult it is to catch those cowardly Moskurgs - surely if we could match their speed, we would win with our superior firepower.
Neither side makes coastal gains in the Western Sea.
Revision Credit!!! Reports from the field are especially poor this year. We know that Myark and al-Mutriqa met in the chaos of the jungle, and that al-Mutriqa was wounded and escaped, but the details of the conflict are unclear. Our commanders are frustrated with the lack of information, especially since Myark seems unwilling to discuss the encounter. Please interview witnesses on the battlefield and compile a report of exactly what occurred. Whichever side has the most well-documented version of the incident - regardless of how conflicting the reports are - will gain a revision credit for the next year.
It is 924, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 924 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Post by: evictedSaint on April 23, 2017, 12:20:50 am
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 23, 2017, 12:51:44 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 23, 2017, 01:11:32 am
Anyway, webs are useless due to Moskurgs anti-magic. They'll just dissappear.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 23, 2017, 01:25:55 am
Steam Power This system consists of a steel chamber, within which an inscribed spell causes a fire to burn permanently. Water entering the chamber flashes to steam then powers the boat forwards as it rushes out
Alternatively, we could just do this.
Long Range Spellcasting : Throw spells from further away, outside the range of any anti magic fields. Burn a boat sails as it approaches, cover the Moskurgian lines in freezing frost, stuff like that.
Or this
Anti-Magic bolts : Arrows, equipped on the tip with a small anti-magic crystal. They can cut through the wind that Moskurgians use to protect their lines, stilling enemy magic in the area. Flaws reintroduced from the old charms ensure that the crystals overload explosively after a short period.
Post by: andrea on April 23, 2017, 01:49:49 am
Sadly crystal hulls are probably out now and we will nevel see crystalclad ships, but we need to regain advantage at sea. ALso, that steam engine will help hide our ships in mist and fog, it seems.
While we went for antimagic fields, it seems the are focusing on dispelling. I wonder if we can train our wizards to improve concentration/caster checks. ( can't remember which one, if any, lets you resist a dispell). We do have an academy...
Post by: evictedSaint on April 23, 2017, 02:02:11 am
Any idea what the current troop distribution is, or do we no longer do that anymore?
It's now abstracted out. You currently have "Most of Army" allocated to the jungle.
Post by: Roboson on April 23, 2017, 02:49:17 am
Post by: andrea on April 23, 2017, 03:46:33 am
Anyway, the actual spell will probably be customized and we have all the experience we need.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 23, 2017, 09:29:45 am
Also would or webs disappear? since aren't they just a giant mass of non-magical spider webs we just summoned?
Also Orders: Have our elite unit go out and capture several of these staffs from enemy mages. since if we can capture and rework them into our arsenal we can gain a quite bit. It's also much safer then trying to capture one of their mages.
Post by: Azzuro on April 23, 2017, 09:42:25 am
I like the steam power one.
Sadly crystal hulls are probably out now and we will nevel see crystalclad ships, but we need to regain advantage at sea. ALso, that steam engine will help hide our ships in mist and fog, it seems.
While we went for antimagic fields, it seems the are focusing on dispelling. I wonder if we can train our wizards to improve concentration/caster checks. ( can't remember which one, if any, lets you resist a dispell). We do have an academy...
I think the AAAA is more the magical equivalent of "universal primary education" rather than "university". We could build upon it, though, perhaps picking out the brightest apprentices for extra training.
Quote
Staff of Webs: 0
Steam Power: 4; Azzuro, andrea, Roboson, stabby
Long Range Spellcasting: 0
Anti-Magic Bolts: 0
Spoiler: Wizard Battle - Collected Transcripts (click to show/hide)
Post by: RAM on April 23, 2017, 01:25:41 pm
Also Orders: Have our elite unit go out and capture several of these staffs from enemy mages. since if we can capture and rework them into our arsenal we can gain a quite bit. It's also much safer then trying to capture one of their mages.I am going to all sorts of nope to this as it would tick off the G.M. who doesn't like espionage. Well, that is, I am not actually voting against it, but I assume that it will only annoy the G.M.... I would however like to see us doing something similar to discern exactly what it is. It seems that it is a general-purpose disruptor of magic as it appears to affect not only magic constructs but also magic in progress, and not only crystal-based magic but fire too. This makes it inherently opposed to all our spells and a massive threat in all ways. But something along the lines of leaving a nice shallow cave somewhere nice and isolated, throwing a few injured Mosskurgers in there, chasing an enemy mage into the vicinity, and then testing all our spells against them while the fool believes they are performing some sort of desperate final stand to save their compatriots, right up until they get an arrow to the knee, and heart, and head, and everywhere else too...
But as stated, I don't think we need this anymore, it seems to be universal death-to-magic.
antiantimagicmagic
Apply mathemagics to our magics and our antimagic so our antimagic ignores one magic so we can magic while we antimagic.
Or, more precisely, we use mathemagics to a crystal so that it not only allows the casting of a specific spell but specifically drains foreign magic from that one spell. The focus of this would be to make our spells immune to magical disruption while within the range of a specialist antimagic crystal. I would further like to reduce the value of gems required by limiting the magical absorption effect to just the spell being cast. Essentially, this would create an antimagic effect that mimics the shape of a known spell and removes any magic not associated with that spell. It would be nice if this would also provide an antimagic field to the wizard, but that would be too expensive to be widely fielded.
This could be revised into further manipulation of the magical absorption field. To make cheap fields that conformed exactly to a summoned crystal construct, or expansive fields to block out a larger area with antimagic arrows. There is just so much that is possible when Mathemagical Fields are Fear-y.
Flame-jewel
Named for its appearance, which is safely behind our ships, out of range of the keggers... It is a three-piece combined magic. The first piece is a crystal tube with one or two narrow necks and a sturdy basket on the rear facing of each neck, along with a wedge to allow it to push itself into place inside similar wedges located under our ships. The second is a crystal stopper or two shaped to fit in the necks and remain in the baskets. The third is a rapidly repeating minor fireball between the two necks. These are all bound to a single gem which is used to ease casting and coordination of the simultaneous magicks.
The pressure of the fireball forces the interior stopper to be pressed against the neck and the exterior to be pushed away, forcing whatever substance is inside it to be forced out of the open rear. After the fireball subsides, there is again room for more substance to do so, which it promptly does so with force, pushing the external stopper against its neck and forcing the substance to be pulled in from the front. This creates a single direction of flow, pushing the ship forwards, and can thaumoretically work in both water and air...
Fair-day cage
An intricate metal box formed of untold thousands of subtle wire patterns, studded with innumerable gems and intricate spell-work. It accumulates the weather-based desires of all the surrounding soldiers and uses them to summon forth their ideal weather conditions, which typically involve the absence of lightning... national effort wish-granting magic
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Andres on April 23, 2017, 01:40:56 pm
Quote
Staff of Webs: 0
Steam Power: 4; Azzuro, andrea, Roboson, stabby
Long Range Spellcasting: 0
Anti-Magic Bolts: 0
Angel Ritual: Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on April 23, 2017, 06:39:17 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 23, 2017, 08:13:44 pm
Well...it doesn't explode right away, at least. That's good.
Smith-made steel, assembled in a confusing and curious configuration of pipes, valves, boilers and a single rotating steel-on-steel joint that screeches whenever it runs - the entire design team took a step back when the thing turned on for the first time. It's the worlds first steam engine, and by god it's glorious.
It first took a minor tweak of our existing Flame Wall spell to generate a more manageable sized flame. It still requires the attention of a mage to be maintained, but so long as they aren't distracted for more than a few seconds it wont go out. This flame was then placed in a special brazier below a sealed container of sea water. As the entire vat of water heats up, steam goes up through a pipe to a secondary container, which has two adjustable valves facing perpendicular to the center. This secondary container is attached via a rotating joint that leaks steam whenever it runs (which our researchers point to as an "emergency release valve"). When the water reaches its boiling point, the steam goes up through the pipe, into this container, and out through the valves to produce rotation. To make sure the entire thing won't break under pressure, we also took the liberty of making sure the parts are as thick as we can possibly make them - that requires a lot of steel, and to avoid cracking the floors at the AAAA with the weight the contraption is assembled outside.
It's loud, it's heavy, it's not very powerful, and it's expensive as can be, but technically...well, it's the continents first working steam engine. That's certainly very impressive, even if we don't currently have a way to harness the rotational energy coming from the secondary container. Unfortunately, the rotating joint has a tendency to seize as the pipe heats up and the seawater produces waste-salt, and the spinning valves need to be adjusted as the amount of steam coming through increases and decreases. Since it's difficult to immediately control the temperature of the water inside the tank as the steel casing retains a great deal of heat, all these combined to result in the secondary container suddenly blasting up off the steam engine and disappearing into the sky during one glorious demonstration. Luckily no one was hurt in the explosion, and the rest of the device was perfectly fine. Still, we'll likely need to do a lot more work with this device before it's ready to be put to practical use.
The Mathemagicians would also like to note that if you find where the secondary container landed, they will pay a hefty sum to have it returned to them. National Effort.
(NOTE: I'm allowing you guys to develop this nearly 8 centuries early because magic doesn't exist in the real world anyways, and it is plausible that if it had something like his might have come along sooner.)
Post by: OceanSoul on April 23, 2017, 08:37:36 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 23, 2017, 08:45:56 pm
Can we command a small amount of our forces to look for the secondary container and get a funding credit from the Mathemagicians, then use that on the steam engine?
You assemble a small force from the palace guard to comb the lands outside of the AAAA for the missing container. You eventually find it a few weeks later in a farming village a few miles outside of the capital, being worshipped by a newly-formed cult.
Apparently, the strange metal contraption landed in a field as a farmer was tending to his crops, causing him to see it as a divine message from God. He then gathered his neighbors to come see the strange, heavenly device, and after a while formed a small cult to worship it. They are certainly disappointed to discover that God had not, in fact, been contacting them. They are pleased with the reward money, however, and use it to fund a new mill for their village.
The secondary container is returned to the Academy and taken in to be repaired.
Dangerous Cult preemptively halted.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 23, 2017, 08:54:09 pm
Post by: RAM on April 23, 2017, 09:01:32 pm
Jets may seem more technological than steam, but in practise, given what we have, it is much simpler...
So, we can work on steam again and risk getting nothing this turn, work on steam baby-steps and get something simple, like a national effort metal stamper than can reduce the cost of one of our equipments at the cost of Myark's time, or do something different and delay steam-tech but hopefully get something out this turn...
Steam just works now
We wanna reroll our steam pliz!
Low-power engine
Reducing the size and power of the engine has advantages in terms of low magic use and easier material reinforcement along with smaller explosions if things go wrong. We can just pipe the steam into the ocean for a small increase in thrust and experiment with steam-powered oars mounted on wheels. These small steam-engines are very weak compared to a longship, but they give us a chance to learn more about the technology.
Steam-press
We work on getting our engine to work as-is. Hook it up to a low-geared wheel that rolls patterns onto metal sheets to produce plate-armour more quickly.
Steam-lumbermill
We work on getting our engine to work as-is. Hook it up to some sort of circular saw-like mechanism and carve up wooden beams like nobody's business. More Longships!!!
Magic immune crystals
We produce a reduced-scale antimagic charm that affixes to a crystal weapon and only covers the weapon to make it immune to our enemies' magic, allowing us to reintroduce some of our crystal weapons in smaller quantities.
antimagic arrows
We revise our antimagic to fit onto some of our anti-wizard guard's arrows, using the old burst-into-flames variant. Effectively a revision of the guard, but theoretically a revision of the charms...
Post by: evictedSaint on April 23, 2017, 09:48:46 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 23, 2017, 09:59:40 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 23, 2017, 10:09:17 pm
So will I cause thats wierdo.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 23, 2017, 10:15:57 pm
Low Powet engine research here. :As I will not bother to submit new plans just vote on what I think is cool.:
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 23, 2017, 10:20:39 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 23, 2017, 10:22:28 pm
Quote from: copy and paste this when you vote
Low Power Steam: [2] Tyrant, Stabby
Post by: Roboson on April 24, 2017, 01:46:56 am
Meh.
Post by: andrea on April 24, 2017, 01:55:05 am
I thought we were making a simple steam net thing (metal tube, fire on one end, boiling water goes out of the other end pushing the boat), which would be much, much simpler... oh, well. I should pay more attention i guess. Maybe we can still get it to work.
Post by: Roboson on April 24, 2017, 02:03:35 am
Post by: Andres on April 24, 2017, 02:10:07 am
Make the Fireball spell cheaper. The spell is effective on land and sea, we're very likely to succeed thanks to our earlier efforts, and fire magic is the basis of our offensive spellwork, so getting more experience in the field will be beneficial. In particular, I'm thinking we can invent explosive shot artillery a few hundred years early using fireballs rather than exploding shells.
Quote
Low Power Steam: Tyrant, Stabby
Cheaper Fireball: Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: andrea on April 24, 2017, 02:31:21 am
Metal caltrops They dispelled our crystal ones, but we have metal. Lets start breaking their charges again.
Quote
Low Power Steam: Tyrant, Stabby, Robson
Cheaper Fireball: Andres
I am not sure I iwll vote on it... I would like to focus on steam but I am not sure I like this revision.
Revised steam engineThis scaled down engine employs out experience in ball bearings from the armor to improve the joints between the containers. Since it is smaller and risk of explosion is also smaller, experiments are done to reduce the weight to the minimum safe amount, rather than the current oversized mess. And add a real safety valve! If you have time, try to improve the nozzles for better thrust, so as to increase the power of the design.
Post by: Roboson on April 24, 2017, 02:33:57 am
] I am not sure I iwll vote on it... I would like to focus on steam but I am not sure I like this revision.
That's how I feel as well. Steam is the way to go, but what the revision should be is a hard choice.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 24, 2017, 02:41:42 am
Make the Fireball spell cheaper. The spell is effective on land and sea, we're very likely to succeed thanks to our earlier efforts, and fire magic is the basis of our offensive spellwork, so getting more experience in the field will be beneficial. In particular, I'm thinking we can invent explosive shot artillery a few hundred years early using fireballs rather than exploding shells.
Our Fireballs are already at the lowest cost level.
Post by: andrea on April 24, 2017, 02:42:37 am
Problem is, the side effect seems a very bad thing to have on a wooden ship.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 24, 2017, 02:44:34 am
Quote
Low Power Steam: Tyrant, Stabby, Robson
Cheaper Fireball: Andres
Cheaper Frost Tower : 10ebbor10
Making the frost tower chesper woukd allow us to pressure the Moskurgians in the plains and desert. They can't hold us in the Jungle even with most of their forces and their wizard, so with extra frost we could possibly invade the plains snd desert as well.
Post by: andrea on April 24, 2017, 02:47:51 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 24, 2017, 02:48:35 am
In the last fight, all the rain andsnow landed on our forces. Turning it inti hail will only make it worse.
Post by: andrea on April 24, 2017, 02:52:34 am
Quote
Low Power Steam: Tyrant, Stabby, Robson
Cheaper Fireball: Andres
Cheaper Frost Tower : 10ebbor10, Andrea
Post by: RAM on April 24, 2017, 03:40:09 am
Quote
3 Low Power Steam: Tyrant, Stabby, RobsonI feel disgusting doing this, it feels like a betrayal of crystal magic that could still work, but it would help...
1 Cheaper Fireball: Andres
2 Cheaper Frost Tower : 10ebbor10, Andrea
1 Metal Caltrops: RAM
Also, I am reiterating my request to find out if crystals are stable in an antimagic field.
Order: enemy counter-magic evaluation
Elite team of skirmishers attack a staff-wielding mage while equipped with both broadswords and crystal axes with a large supply of antimagic along with the crystal axes, but some crystal axes not protected by antimagic. We really need to see if we already have a counter for this thing. Don't forget that they have already moved into cancelling our fireballs, this is not just the crystals that we are protecting. It is a battlefield, if they wanted to capture our charms then they would be able to do so regardless... It is entirely possible that many of our forces could be using crystal weapons right now, no changes, just, "if you have a charm, you get weapon upgrades"...
Alternatively:
Order: crystal weapons are issued to people with antimagic charms
This would mark out our antimagic people but, ehh, we need this information.
Post by: andrea on April 24, 2017, 04:18:47 am
Check it out, give opinions so that it can be improved and our victory assured.
Spoiler: Wizard duel combat report (click to show/hide)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 24, 2017, 05:37:42 am
Quote
Also, I am reiterating my request to find out if crystals are stable in an antimagic field.
Order: enemy counter-magic evaluation
Elite team of skirmishers attack a staff-wielding mage while equipped with both broadswords and crystal axes with a large supply of antimagic along with the crystal axes, but some crystal axes not protected by antimagic. We really need to see if we already have a counter for this thing. Don't forget that they have already moved into cancelling our fireballs, this is not just the crystals that we are protecting. It is a battlefield, if they wanted to capture our charms then they would be able to do so regardless... It is entirely possible that many of our forces could be using crystal weapons right now, no changes, just, "if you have a charm, you get weapon upgrades"...
Alternatively:
Order: crystal weapons are issued to people with antimagic charms
This would mark out our antimagic people but, ehh, we need this information.
-1 to both
Both seem like excellent ways to get elite troops killed.
Post by: Andres on April 24, 2017, 07:29:43 am
The Weaker small fireball is the result of making the big one cheaper.Seems kind of rddundant to do that again.GM said we can make the actual fireball cheaper without making it less powerful by using a Revision.
Don't forget that they have already moved into cancelling our fireballs, this is not just the crystals that we are protecting.Where did it say this?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 24, 2017, 07:39:14 am
The weak fireball is cheap and has no flaws, unlike the strong fireball which is very expensive and sets the floor on fire.
Post by: Azzuro on April 24, 2017, 07:46:02 am
Quote
4 Low Power Steam: Tyrant, Stabby, Robson, Azzuro
1 Cheaper Fireball: Andres
2 Cheaper Frost Tower : 10ebbor10, Andrea
1 Metal Caltrops: RAM
It was mentioned in the update that the ivory-staff wielding enemy mages can cancel out not only crystal weapons, but also prevent casting of fireballs if they get close enough. The info is spread in two paragraphs.
Anyway, new Order: Rededicate our Anti-Wizard Guards into Wizard-Hunting Squads. Now that we have Anti-Magic Charms, our mages and commanders no longer need to fear enemy mindreading, rendering their anti-wizard guards obsolete. The elite guards, however, are reorganised into small squads and attached to every attack we plan as much as possible, tasked to seek out and kill enemy mages wielding the ivory staves.
Also, I wrote a short piece for the Revision Credit earlier, as did RAM. I guess the GM can just take the best one.
Post by: andrea on April 24, 2017, 08:30:35 am
GM said it doesn't matter if reports are contradictory, so the more the merrier.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 24, 2017, 10:19:11 am
The initial design was too large and heavy to be set up inside, let alone mounted to a ship. The first order of business is getting it down to a more managable size.
There's no reason for the initial boiler to be quite so big, so the first step is to scale it down to something approximating a cauldron in size. We nearly reduced the steam pipes to the same scale, but after some tests we decided to simply reduce it down to half size to avoid clogged pipes resulting in another explosion. The secondary container and valves are likewise reduced in size, and as an added bonus we add an emergency steam valve to the top to prevent it from exploding off if the pressure builds up too much. The engine has to cool down before the release valve can be reset, but at least now it won't launch into nearby villages and start any more cults.
The contraption still weighs a staggering amount, but it could concievably be put aboard a ship without sinking it.
Unfortinately, the spinning secondary container has very little torque, though it can reach impressive speeds. We also have no current means of regulating the power once it starts up, and the salt water tends to gum up the internal mechanisms after prolonged use. Additionally, we don't currently have any means of converting the spinning portion into useful energy - all it does at the moment is spew steam spirals.
On the bright side, the flame spell means we won't have to feed the engine.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 24, 2017, 10:25:50 am
Let's hope we can make it usefull.
We should be able to solve the salt issue by filling the tanks with perpetual mist.
Post by: andrea on April 24, 2017, 10:39:20 am
The high speed low torque problem is easily solved as well by a system of pulleys and belts. should not require too advanced technology.
as for the mean of converting energy, I suppose paddlewheels? screw propellers seems a fair bit harder to design, while watermills already have wheels with paddles.
It is taking a while to make it, but it will have wide ranging applications. We could also make things like steam cannons.
edit: Azzurro, nice report for the fight. Fits more with the "interview people from the battlefield" part. Maybe I should rewrite my one to match. Just one question, what are those black phantoms? I forgot them.
Post by: Andres on April 24, 2017, 10:42:08 am
I propose that we then make the weak fireball stronger, rather than the strong fireball cheaper.That is a very good idea.
The weak fireball is cheap and has no flaws, unlike the strong fireball which is very expensive and sets the floor on fire.
Anyway, new Order: Rededicate our Anti-Wizard Guards into Wizard-Hunting Squads. Now that we have Anti-Magic Charms, our mages and commanders no longer need to fear enemy mindreading, rendering their anti-wizard guards obsolete. The elite guards, however, are reorganised into small squads and attached to every attack we plan as much as possible, tasked to seek out and kill enemy mages wielding the ivory staves.+1
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 24, 2017, 12:13:11 pm
No a bad plan. +1Anyway, new Order: Rededicate our Anti-Wizard Guards into Wizard-Hunting Squads. Now that we have Anti-Magic Charms, our mages and commanders no longer need to fear enemy mindreading, rendering their anti-wizard guards obsolete. The elite guards, however, are reorganised into small squads and attached to every attack we plan as much as possible, tasked to seek out and kill enemy mages wielding the ivory staves.+1
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Azzuro on April 24, 2017, 12:21:07 pm
Mist is a great idea.
The high speed low torque problem is easily solved as well by a system of pulleys and belts. should not require too advanced technology.
as for the mean of converting energy, I suppose paddlewheels? screw propellers seems a fair bit harder to design, while watermills already have wheels with paddles.
It is taking a while to make it, but it will have wide ranging applications. We could also make things like steam cannons.
edit: Azzurro, nice report for the fight. Fits more with the "interview people from the battlefield" part. Maybe I should rewrite my one to match. Just one question, what are those black phantoms? I forgot them.
The Black Phantasms were mentioned all the way back in the second update, they're the elite unit of black-robed Moskurger cavalry accompanying al-Mutriqa and presumably getting boosted by the Wand of Heroism.
Also, no need for cumbersome pulleys and belts, RPM-torque can be converted via just two gears with a suitable gear ratio. And paddlewheels sound good, easier to make and retrofit onto our existing ships than screw propellers, which are perhaps better saved for a future revision if needed. It's even period-appropriate, as gears and paddlewheels were known about since antiquity!
I guess we're going to be spending our next design phase on this as well, barring the ever-present threat of Hypothetical Moskurg Magical Superweapons. So a preliminary writeup:
Design: Arstotzkan Steamship
Arstotzkan designers return to their great dream: to propel a ship with nothing more than fire and water! (And some poor apprentice, of course.) This will allow Arstotzkan ships to catch up with those cowardly Moskurgian vessels and fully exploit their superior firepower.
The greatest change is the recycling of steam, rather than being allowed to freely escape and turn the boiler rooms into a steamy mess, the secondary container is enclosed in a cylinder to capture the escaping steam, which is then directed into a series of pipes around the inside hull of the ship, cooling it down and condensing it back into hot water, which is collected and reintroduced into the original boiler at intervals. The steamships are thus designed to be 'fueled' once at port with a load of fresh water to continuously run their engine, although replacement seawater may be used in an emergency in case too much escapes. As a bonus, Arstotzkan steamships are warm-hulled, and any Moskurg boarder may find a cloud of hot steam in his face if he unwisely strikes the hull.
The spinning of the secondary container within its cylinder is used to drive an axle and small gear, which in turn turns two far larger gears and a pair of massive paddlewheels on either side of the ship, made of wood with a thin covering of metal. The enormous paddles displace far more water than oars, allowing our ships to move that much faster. In battle, one of the paddlewheels may be disconnected from the gear to execute a sharp turn.
Finally, the Cardinal Order of Mathemagicians have helpfully transferred the runework for Automagical Control from the Tower of Frost to the boiler, allowing the apprentice on duty to regulate the strength of the fire spell, and thus the heat and pressure generated.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 24, 2017, 12:25:04 pm
Post by: andrea on April 24, 2017, 12:38:17 pm
edit: also, I proposed blts and pulleys because good gears are not simple to manufacture. early design were.... not efficient.
Post by: Azzuro on April 24, 2017, 01:10:56 pm
Oh, and since we have mills in our villages as mentioned in the short update, we definitely have gears sufficient to turn a paddlewheel, which is basically a watermill in reverse. And even in Ancient Greece nearly a thousand years before our game, gears were sufficiently precise to use in a primitive analogue computer, although that's lost technology.
Post by: andrea on April 24, 2017, 01:16:02 pm
I am just worried about the transmission efficiency, which might be poor. I will need some research on the matter. Although we do have fairly advanced metallurgy.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 24, 2017, 01:22:39 pm
Aside that, I think we need a new gun" aside arrows. Like fireball launchers, cross bows in a form, bolt or pellet launchers/ Greek fire. Just something you know?
Post by: andrea on April 24, 2017, 01:29:36 pm
regarding fresh water, ebbor has a point in trying to use our fog spell. fog IS water.
edit: I hope we get the revision credit, we will really need it.
Post by: RAM on April 24, 2017, 04:27:29 pm
I was also thinking of using Runes/ glyphs to enchant metals to keep toughness but be lighter. So can have iron clads and more mobile plate troops. Even lead to iron clads if applied to steam ships.Our crystals are already most of that...
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 24, 2017, 05:46:40 pm
Moskurg is going to hit us hard this turn.
Post by: RAM on April 24, 2017, 06:43:41 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 24, 2017, 06:47:52 pm
After Arstotzka's push from last year, we've managed to maintain our momentum with some difficulty.
Skirmishes see Moskurg deploying a new, deadly weapon this year - arrows, with their metal tips filed down to a needle point. Once again our caltrops do nothing to stop them as they charge into our camp in the dead of night, the lead rider holding aloft an ivory staff that snuffs out magic all around it. Their horse archers use their new arrows to deadly effect; at nearly point blank range, the dreaded needle arrows punch through steel plate to dig into flesh beneath.
Well. At least, some of them do. The arrows have a tendency to crumple if they hit a particularly thick section of armor, and when they do penetrate they're not always lethal. Still, they dig into the flesh beneath the steel when they do punch through, wounding men in armor. The narrow arrows do less damage to unarmored men than regular arrows, but our soldiers aren't happy to have over-sized sewing needles shot into their midst. Despite being less lethal than our own ashwood arrows, this frightening new weapon causes discontent amongst our men.
Our own skirmishes go equally well - the Moskurgs still aren't used to the cold weather we've foisted upon them, and time and time again they let their guard down. We punish them severely for it, riding in with our plentiful heavy calvary and laying about where we can. Our foot archers creep into range before sniping into their encampments, and before they can organize a counter attack we're gone. Skirmishes are more or less even this year, with neither side doing more damage than the other.
The melee's have increased in lethality, however. Moskurg needle arrows tend to dig into our wooden shields at medium range, and at close range they can cause superficial wounds that hamper our mens fighting capabilities. This, of course, is ignoring the annoying tendency of Moskurg arrows to find their way into eyeslits and armor gaps - that still happens with frustrating frequency. Our own arrows return the favor when they can find their way through the wind and rain, punching through what seems like tinfoil armor. Moskurg had made some attempt to field armor in a clumsy attempt to imitate our invulnerable (except to lightning) plate armor, and their inexperience shows. It's metal scales sewn together to drape each man in a coat, but it's frequently rusted and too thin to stop longbow arrows within long range. It's not particularly adept at melee combat, either - a single blow will tear it to shreds, causing the thread to snap and leaving the soldier open for a second attack. Even though it's utterly, utterly inferior to our own armor, it does give them more flexibility and buys their men a few extra seconds of life.
With our anti-magic charms now keeping our commanders safe, we've organize our Anti-Mage body guards into Anti-Mage Hunters [Roll at disadvantage: 5, 6]. Equipped with the finest bows, armor, and anti-magic charms we have available, they make a sport of shooting down enemy mages wielding ivory staves. Other enemy mages cloak themselves in whirling cyclones of wind when not casting, but even they must drop their shield to cast their lightning. When they do, they are quickly shot down. Without al-Mutriqa to pick up the slack, we push Moskurg back another section in the jungle. Those we capture are brutally, mercilessly executed in plain view of the enemy's lines.
Let them know what awaits.
The Theatre Commander is very pleased with our progress. Switching the body guards to offense was a brilliant stroke, and with the enemy unable to protect their mages we've pushed them back even further. It's mildly disconcerting that they've begun using needles for arrows, but if their foolish armor is any indication of their capabilities we should have this war wrapped up in a few years.
Arstotzka gains ground in the jungle.
With no new advancements to be used on the seas, neither side makes advancements here.
The Theatre Commander contemplates your steam engine, and quickly dismisses it. It's too heavy to be used on a ship - however many men it replaces in work wouldn't equal the amount of weight it takes up. He hopes you'll cease with this foolish talk of steam and develop something to give us a real advantage on the high seas, like perhaps an even bigger fireball.
Neither side makes coastal gains in the Western Sea.
Revision Credit Results:
Moskurg: 2 reports + (1d4 = 1) = 3
Arstotzka: 3 reports + (1d4 = 1) = 4
Arstotzka has compiled a more thorough report of the incident regarding al-Mutriqa and Myark, and gains a revision credit for this coming year.
Spoiler: Azzuro's Report (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: andrea's Report (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: RAM's Report (click to show/hide)
It is 925, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 925 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Post by: andrea on April 24, 2017, 06:55:30 pm
edit: design to make practical steam engine, revision to fix/mount on ships, revision to get sloped plate armor to deflect needle arrows?
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 24, 2017, 07:03:03 pm
Also EvictedSaint we're missing our steam engine in our equipment.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 24, 2017, 07:09:33 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 24, 2017, 07:11:29 pm
Steam will work eventually, but let's get us something that'll help now. Or at least, shortly. We can use our spare revision to make the steam engine more workable now and then make it into a steamship in the 926 design phase.
Minor Splicing: We've figured out how to splice minor mammalian beast traits(ears, eyes, tail, claws, whiskers, equivalent) into our soldiers. Though this may induce some odd mental changes, those that volunteer to be spliced will gain considerable sensory advantages, and depending on species chosen, other light physical advantages as well.
Canning: We've figured out how to use glass jars and magical heating to more effectively preserve food, especially fruit, boosting the health and morale of our forces.
Medical Science: We've applied our scientific methods to our medical methods, and boy, have we improved. No more do we kill our veterans by bleeding them dry with leeches, nor do we clean them with murky water. No, nowadays we use clean boiled water for cleaning, and generally make good hygienic choices to improve the mortality of our forces.
I would suggest Dragon's Fireball again, but that's more of a revision.
Spider Silk Armor(a): For our ordinary soldiers, we have plate mail. For our officers... we have chain mail. This is unacceptable. Using conjured silk(which we've worked out a method to last longer than normal, at the expense of volume, which we don't need anyway), we create cloth armor that is ridiculously tough and basically only weak against blunt attacks, which the Moskurgians don't use... and additionally, not attracting lightning and being better for our mages.
Spider Silk Armor(b): For our ordinary soldiers, we have plate mail. For our officers... we have chain mail. This is unacceptable. We've worked out a method to control spiders using part of our wasp summoning spell, and we have them spin silk armor instead of their normal webs. It may seem weak, like cloth...which it is... but it's ridiculously vulnerable, doesn't attract lightning, is wonderful for our mages, and is basically only vulnerable against blunt attacks. This has the benefit over a of being permanent, but takes longer to make.
Control Beasts: Using the framework we already have in our wasp spells, we can now take control of enemy horses... that aren't shielded by their staves, at least. Probably.
Greatest Fireball: This long and arduous ritual requires the assistance of Myark and a valuable gemstone to use as a focus... plus quite a few wizards. There is one main result: A bloody huge fireball that basically creates localized armageddon. On the side, no damaging side effects are created, the heat all channeled into the fireball.
Horse Breeding: Applying modern genetic science to our horse breeding, we can now produce additional horses, and faster and less frightenable ones at that.
Hopefully one of these will stick.
Quote
Minor Splicing: 0
Canning: 0
Medical Science: 0
Spider Silk Armor(a): 0
Spider Silk Armor(b): 0
Control Beasts: 0
Greatest Fireball: 0
Horse Breeding: 0
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 24, 2017, 07:48:27 pm
The other stuff? Technology, not magic.
Spells:
Blazing Sight: A quicker, longer reaching spell that has more limited hit box. But gives casters heat vision to fry targets in line of sight.
Summon Sea Monsters: So navy commander no steam? How about sea serpents to crush their boats.
Anchor Net System: Using Runes to pre program magic, in "reserves" to keep Magic stable as a means to counter our crystals from vanishing. By anchoring the conjured material into our reality. To give your crystal gear back. Takes time for ritual since starter. Uses wave lengths and mageomath to solidify mana fields.
Tech:
Gun Powder Bombs: Or we could somehow make fused with ball castings full of stuff to blow up our enemies. They get rid of our crystal cantrips? Let them step into a old fashion mine field instead.
Or just dig pits morning before their night raids so they fall into stabbing traps of death.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 24, 2017, 10:27:17 pm
Blazing Sight: A quicker, longer reaching spell that has more limited hit box. But gives casters heat vision to fry targets in line of sight.What are the benefits of heat vision compared to a normal or adjusted fireball?
Summon Sea Monsters: So navy commander no steam? How about sea serpents to crush their boats.Neat. Summon, or Conjure? Control the ones already there, or make new ones?
Anchor Net System: Using Runes to pre program magic, in "reserves" to keep Magic stable as a means to counter our crystals from vanishing. By anchoring the conjured material into our reality. To give your crystal gear back. Takes time for ritual since starter. Uses wave lengths and mageomath to solidify mana fields.Like a magical programming language?
Gun Powder Bombs: Or we could somehow make fused with ball castings full of stuff to blow up our enemies. They get rid of our crystal cantrips? Let them step into a old fashion mine field instead.
It's going to take a lot more than just one design phase to get even ordinary smoke gunpowder. Mundane land mines are out of reach. Magical ones, however...
~~~
Exclusive Anti-Magic Amulets: This new variant of the anti-magic amulet can distinguish between magic created near it and magic created further from it and projected into its zone, letting our mages use these and still cast spells. They are unfortunately a little more difficult to create, however(which is fine because we don't need to give loads of them out anyway, just enough for our mages).
Quote
Minor Splicing: 0
Canning: 0
Medical Science: 0
Spider Silk Armor(a): 0
Spider Silk Armor(b): 0
Control Beasts: 0
Greatest Fireball: 0
Horse Breeding: 0
Exclusive Anti-Magic Amulets: 0
Post by: RAM on April 24, 2017, 10:48:43 pm
Minor Splicing:
/me likes due to new field of knowledge and potential to work.
Canning:
/me likes due to simple and useful.
Medical Science:
/me finds this wanting. medical science is difficult, cannot hope for antibiotics... Get magical healing instead, wishing people better is more likely to work.
Spider Silk Armor(a):
/me finds this to be completely useless, as the armour will vanish as soon as the enemy arrives.
Spider Silk Armor(b):
/me feels this could work, but may be difficult due to "spin armour shape 20 layers deep" being more complicated that "attack"... looks like good research on complex commands for creatures that disappear as soon as enemy gets close.
Control Beasts:
/me wonders if was controlled at all, and if wasp cooperate because controlled or if wasp created with cooperative nature. Could evolve into tree control is nice...
Greatest Fireball:
/me thinks "may as well revise wand"...
Horse Breeding:
/me thinks not so good in jungle and sea where needed...
spell of antimagic
Use mathemagics to precisely recreate the magical signature of an antimagic charm using magic alone. Attempt to condense the absorbed magic into a form of crystallised sound that can then be hurled as a terror weapon.
Our mages want antimagic too...
Steam Lumbermill
We work out a nice middle-ground size for our steam engine and design some gearing and valves to get it to work in a static environment. Combine this with some conveyors(using wheels, not belts, I don't want to get greedy) and wheel-saws we create an improved lumber processing mill that increases our lumber supply and reduces the cost of ships.
Quote
1 Minor Splicing: RAM
Canning: 0
Medical Science: 0
Spider Silk Armor(a): 0
Spider Silk Armor(b): 0
Control Beasts: 0
Greatest Fireball: 0
Horse Breeding: 0
Blazing Sight:
Summon Sea Monsters:
Anchor Net System:
Gun Powder Bombs:
Exclusive Anti-Magic Amulets: 0
spell of antimagic
steam lumbermill
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 24, 2017, 10:57:25 pm
Quote
1 Minor Splicing: RAM, StabbyBearzerkers that is all.
Canning: 0
Medical Science: 0
Spider Silk Armor(a): 0
Spider Silk Armor(b): 0
Control Beasts: 0
Greatest Fireball: 0
Horse Breeding: 0
Blazing Sight:
Summon Sea Monsters:
Anchor Net System:
Gun Powder Bombs:
Exclusive Anti-Magic Amulets: 0
spell of antimagic
steam lumbermill
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 24, 2017, 11:01:38 pm
Only idea I think worth while is the Anchor Network programming which is most plausible as we already invested in anti magic and know how it works.
Quote1 Minor Splicing: RAM, Stabby, Tyrant.
Canning: 0
Medical Science: 0
Spider Silk Armor(a): 0
Spider Silk Armor(b): 0
Control Beasts: 0
Greatest Fireball: 0
Horse Breeding: 0
Blazing Sight:
Summon Sea Monsters:
Anchor Net System:
Gun Powder Bombs:
Exclusive Anti-Magic Amulets: 0
spell of antimagic
steam lumbermill
As for sea monsters could be summoning or controlling pre existing ones. As the enemy is big on anti conjure/creation.
Post by: RAM on April 25, 2017, 12:46:19 am
We really can't make any assumptions about their antimagic. Ours works as a power-drain, but theirs might be disruption or negation or overloading or delaying or excluding or... well, all sorts of things... Our own antimagic is very not-magic-like and ought to function just fine against theirs which, as a projectable effect, seems pretty magical. Until we get some actual data on their antimagic, we are stuck with guessing. Reserve magic might work against ours because it would sustain the flow a little longer, but it would ultimately drain and vanish. If, on the other hand, they randomised the surrounding magical medium, the magic won't be viable no matter how we project it, unless we project our own medium to support it. Magical annulment on the other hand would require more force to counter it, so holding anything in reserve is pointless, what is required is an additional power-source, which we could probably convert our antimagic charms into quite easily given their absorption qualities(how difficult can it be to extract material from a vacuum?). An overloading effect would cause the anchor to fry, like an E.M.P. to electronics, but it would be wonderful once we revised to overcome that and could project patterns into the magic-rich environment. If it offsets magical effects to some point in the near future, then it will likely stop it being scrambled by the temporary absence, but it would still get delayed, and might get scrambled by the failure to effect any magic in the meantime, and then you get the issue of overlapping magic as it kept being recast... Completely forbidding magic in an area would just flat out stop it from working, we would probably need some sort of external device to initiate the effect and everything would require a counter-field in order to operate.
It is a good idea, but does it work?
Oh, did we end up with scrolls or not? I forget...
Post by: evictedSaint on April 25, 2017, 12:50:02 am
And no, you guys didn't want understanding of scroll magic so I removed it.
Post by: RAM on April 25, 2017, 01:09:12 am
channelled fog come in contact with their antimagic
Order: crystal within range of our antimagic come into contact with their antimagic. Just put some caltrops in a thane's pockets or something...
Order: Abduct one of our own wizards who has had their spells disrupted and bring them here for
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 25, 2017, 01:33:33 am
Post by: RAM on April 25, 2017, 01:58:06 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 25, 2017, 02:04:09 am
Post by: RAM on April 25, 2017, 02:19:41 am
Revision: Mathemagical college
I don't know what it would do, like, maybe a 20% chance at a +1 to metamagic proposals or something. I just want to add a mathemagical college to our academy.
Revision: Children's card games
Revise our champions so that they can win Duels even at a disadvantage. Either a chance to win regardless or tip the scales of how badly we are beaten before Myark loses a little in our favour.
Post by: andrea on April 25, 2017, 04:35:42 am
Enemy bodkin arrows may be a problem, but one we can fix by an armor revision. Add proper angling to the armor, some padding below and even the few shots they get should be fixed. Even better would be keeping them at distance, so metal caltrops?
Practical steam engine This is the next development in steam machinery. Compared to previous models, the water is provided by a channeled fog spell added to the primary boiler, which should conjure enough mist to provide steam pressure without causing salt buildup. The output problem is solved by a simple transmission turning high speed/low torque into something more useable. This transmission would be linked to a paddle wheel similar to those in use in our watermills.
PS: further weight reduction would be appreciated but not essential
edit:for the sake of not voting for myself.
Quote
1 Minor Splicing: RAM, Stabby, Tyrant.
Canning: 0
Medical Science: 0
Spider Silk Armor(a): 0
Spider Silk Armor(b): 0
Control Beasts: 0
Greatest Fireball: 0
Horse Breeding: 0
Blazing Sight:
Summon Sea Monsters:
Anchor Net System:
Gun Powder Bombs:
Exclusive Anti-Magic Amulets: 0
spell of antimagic
steam lumbermill Andrea
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 25, 2017, 05:24:35 am
Quote
Quote
1 Minor Splicing: RAM, Stabby, Tyrant.
Canning: 0
Medical Science: 0
Spider Silk Armor(a): 0
Spider Silk Armor(b): 0
Control Beasts: 0
Greatest Fireball: 0
Horse Breeding: 0
Blazing Sight:
Summon Sea Monsters:
Anchor Net System:
Gun Powder Bombs:
Exclusive Anti-Magic Amulets: 0
spell of antimagic
steam lumbermill Andrea
Practical Steam Engine : 10ebbor10
Post by: andrea on April 25, 2017, 06:27:58 am
A world powered by huge engines belching fog, steam ships, steam mathemagic analog computers, steam carts, steam cannons and, dare I say, steam rifles!
You know you want it, follow the dream!
(disclaimer: the full extent of the dream may not be available in the game without good rolls and many actions)
Post by: Azzuro on April 25, 2017, 06:47:21 am
Quote
Minor Splicing: 3, RAM, Stabby, Tyrant
Practical Steam Engine : 2, 10ebbor10, Azzuro
steam lumbermill: 1, Andrea
Canning: 0
Medical Science: 0
Spider Silk Armor(a): 0
Spider Silk Armor(b): 0
Control Beasts: 0
Greatest Fireball: 0
Horse Breeding: 0
Blazing Sight: 0
Summon Sea Monsters: 0
Anchor Net System: 0
Gun Powder Bombs: 0
Exclusive Anti-Magic Amulets: 0
spell of antimagic: 0
Please don't start on another chain of research before we've got steam engines running, people, otherwise the previous turn was just wasted. We've got a unique opportunity here with the Revision Credit, let's not waste it.
Also, I hate to be that guy, but needle arrows are pretty much useless at armour-piercing. Like, I'm 100% sure that whatever the Moskurgs were using before, it's definitely better. For the same mass of metal, a needle's minimal possible cross-sectional area will guarantee it deforms/snaps on impact with metal if not striking perfectly (and I mean perfectly) head-on, which only grows more difficult as the length of the needle increases, thus wasting the kinetic energy of the arrow. A reasonably-tapered spike with polygonal cross-section would be more efficient overall at piercing metal across a range of impact angles, and in real medieval history this was accomplished in the famous bodkin-point arrowhead and all the variations thereof.
Admittedly IRL needlelike arrows did see limited use, but for penetrating exposed chain mail, not plate mail. Thinner arrowheads would be better at both pushing aside and going through the chain links than broader ones, which had to expend energy to break links that the point passed through.
Post by: andrea on April 25, 2017, 07:14:38 am
And I have to stress what Azzurro said: lets not wander off every time we start a new field. a turn spent opening new fields is not a turn wasted, it is an opportunity. It is only wasted if we then never touch it again.
Once more: look at their weather control. They spent several turns before making it work well, but then it became their most powerful weapon.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 25, 2017, 07:42:18 am
Quote
Minor Splicing: 2, RAM, Tyrant
Practical Steam Engine : 2, 10ebbor10, Azzuro, Stabby
steam lumbermill: 1, Andrea
Canning: 0
Medical Science: 0
Spider Silk Armor(a): 0
Spider Silk Armor(b): 0
Control Beasts: 0
Greatest Fireball: 0
Horse Breeding: 0
Blazing Sight: 0
Summon Sea Monsters: 0
Anchor Net System: 0
Gun Powder Bombs: 0
Exclusive Anti-Magic Amulets: 0
spell of antimagic: 0
I'll switch simply because that a decent argument.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 25, 2017, 09:00:36 am
Also, if we do this, it'll mark two design phases of nothing of immediate use. Let's hope Moskurg doesn't make anything useful or a revision will be enough to make a difference...
Post by: andrea on April 25, 2017, 09:03:06 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 25, 2017, 09:08:58 am
It does mean we're going to need a revision to get it to a decent size unless we roll well, though, and it gives more time for Moskurg to figure out something new or how to dispel anchored crystals... anchored... oh.
That's an interesting idea. Putting it here for reference, but might not be the best choice for right now.
Anchor Towers: We can establish small mobile(by means of wheels) towers. These towers have a large glass or quartz crystal in the middle(what, you think we'd do the top when it's so vulnerable?) that projects anchoring over a large distance, acting as an anchor for all crystal within its area. On another note, they also act as a lightning rod.
Post by: andrea on April 25, 2017, 09:23:59 am
Also, while we already have a fog spell, we need to incorporate it in the design of the steam engine.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 25, 2017, 11:05:18 am
Also the Anchor I envisioned not channeled by Crystal but advanced rune/glyph coding that in turn imprints on stuff so no dispelling takes place. But a tower like a star craft pylon would be cool. For a select field of it.
Post by: andrea on April 25, 2017, 11:17:52 am
Quote
Minor Splicing: 1, RAM
Practical Steam Engine : 4, 10ebbor10, Azzuro, Stabby, Tyrant
steam lumbermill: 1, Andrea
Canning: 0
Medical Science: 0
Spider Silk Armor(a): 0
Spider Silk Armor(b): 0
Control Beasts: 0
Greatest Fireball: 0
Horse Breeding: 0
Blazing Sight: 0
Summon Sea Monsters: 0
Anchor Net System: 0
Gun Powder Bombs: 0
Exclusive Anti-Magic Amulets: 0
spell of antimagic: 0
Post by: evictedSaint on April 25, 2017, 11:41:29 am
As marvelous as this invention is, it's utterly useless unless we find some way of harnessing it. The first step is to put a ninety-degree bend in the neck of the contraption so it rotates perpendicular to the ground. This prevents us from having to gearbox the rotation into another direction, conserving some of the power.
The next step is to transfer the spinning into something useful, like a paddlewheel. We experiment with a few different methods, but eventually settle on using a belt made of heavy rope. This is looped around the spinning portion, the wheel of the paddle, and a second adjustable wheel. The second wheel lets us dictate how much tension is in the belt, giving us an inefficient means of controlling the speed. The primary wheel is much larger in diameter than the spinning container, resulting in a low-speed but high-torque gearing. The paddle is made of wood and contains four blades, each standing as high as a mans knee.
The contraption is mounted on one of our largest ships. The rear sinks deep into the water, nearly lifting the bow out of the ocean. The open flame makes sailors nervous, and the loud screeching makes their teeth clench. The boiler needs to be periodically stopped and cleaned to prevent salt from causing a dangerous blockage. The belt has a tendency to slide on the wheels when wet, and too much tension causes it to snap dangerously.
Furthermore, the devices performance is...lackluster. The slow moving paddles will certainly propel the ship, but a stiff breeze will stall the boats progress. The captain points out that it'd be more efficient to replace the device with the same amount of rowers by weight, or even by swimmers pulling the boat along by tow line.
The biggest problem seems to be the inefficiency of the aeolipile design, followed by the weight. The current design is an interesting proof of concept, and despite the misgivings of the sailors, the commanders, and the king, our mathemagicians think they can produce a more efficient - and powerful - design, if given time. Very Expensive.
Post by: andrea on April 25, 2017, 11:56:07 am
I can see 2 ways to solve the last problem left (inefficiency) : trying to get an alternating engine, or improvising a "steam turbine" by putting small windmill blades in a tube.
I like the second option of turbines.
Also, we need angled plate armor to deflect their shots.
both of those could be attempted during a revision.
Also: while now the engine has a cost attached, I propose we don't deploy it until we make it useful. We don't want them knowing what we ar working on.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 25, 2017, 12:01:32 pm
Revision 2 : Improved Steam engine
Post by: Andres on April 25, 2017, 12:17:28 pm
Revision 1: Make Streamlined Fireball bigger.
Revision 2: Improved Steam engine
Our sea commander keeps requesting that we make bigger fireballs. Let us give him his bigger fireballs. Bigger fireballs capable of taking out squads instead of individuals will also obviously be useful on the ground. Better to revise Streamlined Fireball to be bigger than Fireball to be cheaper as Streamlined Fireball has no bugs. Unless I am mistaken, it is also only a single grade of damage lower than Fireball, whereas Fireball is two grades higher in terms of cost than Streamlined Fireball.
Quote
Cheaper Frost Tower: 10ebbor10
Improved Steam Engine: 10ebbor10, Andres
Bigger STREAMLINED Fireball: Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 25, 2017, 12:20:04 pm
Also, I hate to be that guy, but needle arrows are pretty much useless at armour-piercing. Like, I'm 100% sure that whatever the Moskurgs were using before, it's definitely better. For the same mass of metal, a needle's minimal possible cross-sectional area will guarantee it deforms/snaps on impact with metal if not striking perfectly (and I mean perfectly) head-on, which only grows more difficult as the length of the needle increases
Their horse archers use their new arrows to deadly effect; at nearly point blank range, the dreaded needle arrows punch through steel plate to dig into flesh beneath.
Well. At least, some of them do. The arrows have a tendency to crumple if they hit a particularly thick section of armor, and when they do penetrate they're not always lethal.
I think this was a fair compromise for their not-quite-functional bodkin arrows. They still kill with the same frequency at anything beyond point-blank range, and their biggest effect is that our soldiers don't like being shot with them.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 25, 2017, 12:33:33 pm
I kind of expected it to be a very good roll at their end, given that bodkin arrows were generally ineffective against decent plate. It could penetrate, but only under ideal circumstances, which would be a strong longbow, elite archer, close range, and a perpendicular hit. Moskurg has at best two of those. A horse archer has the close range, but neither the longbow nor the perpendicular hit (since they're shooting downwards). An archer in the field will always be at too long a range, and certainly won't manage the decent hit.
Now you can argue that our plate is not equal to real plate, but I'll point out that their bodkin is much worse, given that our plate consisted out of pure 6's by the end.
Anyway, I noticed something :
Quote
Hide Armour: General infantry armour. Cheap, thanks to the plentiful sheep in the taiga. Turns aside weak blows. Cheap.
We can easily revise that into a Gambeson, which will stop most arrows, and can be worn over our armor.
Post by: Azzuro on April 25, 2017, 12:36:27 pm
Revision: Improved Steam Engine - Turbines
Using mathemagical analysis, it is apparent that the current method of escaping steam pushing the entire cylinder around is hugely inefficient. Arstotzkan blacksmiths thus forge a series of small windmill blades set along an axle: enclosed within a cylinder, this should theoretically allow us to harness the entire pressure "differential" instead of just part of it, according to the mathemagicians.
Oh, and use metal chains instead of a rope, since we're swimming in metal, for the rope snapping issue.
Revision: Angled Plate Armour
Although the trustworthy plate armour has served us faithfully for years, we need to stay ahead of Moskurg advances in needle arrowheads. The standard armour template is revised into a more angled forms to deflect arrows by a combined team of blacksmiths and mathemagicians - the mathemagicians analyse armour faces using "trigonometry" to determine the best angles of slope and radius of curve, while the blacksmiths quarrel, argue and object in the name of simplicity and mass production, bringing the final design to a balance between improved needle arrow protection and economy of production.
Quote
Cheaper Frost Tower: (2) 10ebbor10, Azzuro
Improved Steam Engine - Turbines: (3) 10ebbor10, Andres, Azzuro
Bigger STREAMLINED Fireball: (1) Andres
Angled Plate Armour: (0)
@evictedSaint: If they do have bodkin arrowheads, then fair enough. I'll just assume 'needle arrows' are what we call them/that's what they look like due to Mediocre Moskurgian Metalworking.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 25, 2017, 12:40:04 pm
Quote
Cheaper Frost Tower: (2) 10ebbor10, AzzuroGambeson : By revising our existing hide armor to be slightly thicker and easier to wear over existing armor, we create a garment that can effectively stop arrowheads. In addition, the thick wool will stand straight from static electricty moments before lightning strikes, allowing our forces to dodge.
Improved Steam Engine - Turbines: (3) 10ebbor10, Andres, Azzuro
Bigger STREAMLINED Fireball: (1) Andres
Angled Plate Armour: (0)
Gambeson:(1) : 10ebbor10
Not having lightning reflexes is not an excuse.
Post by: andrea on April 25, 2017, 12:42:24 pm
anyway, that seems a good idea. I am torn between it and the bigger streamlines fireball.
Quote
Cheaper Frost Tower: (2) 10ebbor10, Azzuro
Improved Steam Engine - Turbines: (3) 10ebbor10, Andres, Azzuro, Andrea
Bigger STREAMLINED Fireball: (1) Andres, Andrea
Angled Plate Armour: (0)
Gambeson:(1) : 10ebbor10
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 25, 2017, 12:45:15 pm
Quote
anyway, that seems a good idea. I am torn between it and the bigger streamlines fireball.
You can do both.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 25, 2017, 12:46:11 pm
the mathemagicians analyse armour faces using "trigonometry" to determine the best angles of slope and radius of curve
Uuuh...considering the fact that "Trigonometry" is a made up explination of how magic works with no real world applications, I'm skeptical that you can actually use it for something like this. But hey, if you roll well enough I don't see why something like that wouldn't work.
@evictedSaint: If they do have bodkin arrowheads, then fair enough. I'll just assume 'needle arrows' are what we call them/that's what they look like due to Mediocre Moskurgian Metalworking.
Both sides have some misconceptions about each others capabilities. For the longest time, Moskurg thought you'd enchanted the grass to stab at their horses - not realizing crystal caltrops were hidden in the grass.
Post by: andrea on April 25, 2017, 12:50:12 pm
by the way, when you added gamberson you forgot to remove your vote from something else.
@evictedsaint made up explanation without real world application can also apply to much of real world math. And yet several times some abstract theorems found their way into proper applications.
Unless you mean to say that what our mathemagicians call trigonometry has no relation at all with our trigonometry, then I suppose it will not help.
Also, I am amused at the grass. I am curious about our own misconceptions, will be interesting to see after the game ends.
Post by: Roboson on April 25, 2017, 12:50:59 pm
For the longest time, Moskurg thought you'd enchanted the grass to stab at their horses - not realizing crystal caltrops were hidden in the grass.
Holy shit. That is the greatest idea I have ever heard!
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 25, 2017, 12:52:20 pm
Quote
by the way, when you added gamberson you forgot to remove your vote from something else.
Anything says I have to?
Post by: evictedSaint on April 25, 2017, 12:52:58 pm
I will not dictate how you guys come to your concensus, but I will pick whichever has the highest total of votes. Personally, I'd ask you keep it from becoming too ambiguous as the whole point of that quote box was to give me a quick reference.
Post by: Roboson on April 25, 2017, 12:53:31 pm
Quote
Cheaper Frost Tower: (2) 10ebbor10, Azzuro
Improved Steam Engine - Turbines: (5) 10ebbor10, Andres, Azzuro, Andrea, Roboson
Bigger STREAMLINED Fireball: (3) Andres, Andrea, Roboson
Angled Plate Armour: (0)
Gambeson:(1) : 10ebbor10
Just added in my votes, not sure if this is still correct.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 25, 2017, 01:06:27 pm
Post by: Azzuro on April 25, 2017, 01:09:39 pm
Quote
Cheaper Frost Tower: (1) 10ebbor10
Improved Steam Engine - Turbines: (5) 10ebbor10, Andres, Azzuro, Andrea, Roboson
Bigger STREAMLINED Fireball: (3) Andres, Andrea, Roboson
Angled Plate Armour: (0)
Gambeson: (2) 10ebbor10, Azzuro
Changing my vote to Gambeson as that seems more likely to succeed since we already have the Hide Armour.
Also, ebbor, considering everyone has stuck to the convention of having only two votes for the two revisions it's a bit impolite for you to have three. We could move to ranked preference voting, but eh.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 25, 2017, 01:12:39 pm
Quote
Improved Steam Engine - Turbines: (5) 10ebbor10, Andres, Azzuro, Andrea, Roboson
Bigger STREAMLINED Fireball: (3) Andres, Andrea, Roboson
Angled Plate Armour: (0)
Gambeson: (2) 10ebbor10, Azzuro
Eh fine.
Doesn't really matter though, would be identical to me doing some last minute vote switching.
Post by: andrea on April 25, 2017, 01:13:17 pm
By the way, if all goes well with the turbine, next turn we can design a new ship most likely. Or revise a ship, design a cannon?
Post by: Azzuro on April 25, 2017, 01:19:36 pm
And I think we should design the ship, then design a cannon if needed.
Post by: andrea on April 25, 2017, 01:37:33 pm
Although, the real reason is that I like seeing rolls and results.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 25, 2017, 01:47:44 pm
Post by: andrea on April 25, 2017, 01:51:13 pm
anything above a 3 would be mighty fine, even.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 25, 2017, 02:00:21 pm
Design: Falsecasting: We get a large number of people we dress like wizards and teach them to mimic how mages act when casting spells. We then present far more targets for the enemy staves then they have available, for a much cheaper price.
Post by: andrea on April 25, 2017, 02:04:12 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 25, 2017, 02:05:42 pm
We did use the design on the steam engine, and we are using one of our 2 revisions to rework other existing things.
But we are reworking steam engines... I think it will take more to fix them.
Post by: Roboson on April 25, 2017, 02:12:08 pm
We did use the design on the steam engine, and we are using one of our 2 revisions to rework other existing things.
But we are reworking steam engines... I think it will take more to fix them.
We're in a revision phase right now. The design phase for this year has come and gone.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 25, 2017, 02:29:00 pm
After some work at the chalkboard, we elect to discard the secondary container all together. The steam valves were difficult to tune when the device is spinning, and having to rotate the entire secondary container all together is a waste of energy. Taking inspiration from our mills, we fashion a small steel windmill to sit inside the pipe instead. This proves to be a rather tricky thing to do, as the windmill gets really hot while sitting in the steam and can jam quite easily. Furthermore, getting the right ratio between pipe diameter and steam output takes some testing to figure out, but after a while we find one that works. More testing (and likely mathematics) would be required to find the most efficient variation, but this shift in design results in a slight increase in efficiency. It still doesn't beat a full contingent of rowers, but the prototype putters around the port quite nicely on calm days.
A rope belt is still used to drive the paddle, and it still slips when the contraption gets too wet. Salt residue tends to creep up the pipe and clog the turbine and pipes, requiring frequent maintainance to prevent explosions. Output is still regulated by the tension in the belt. The design can now move a ship at a very modest pace on calm waters, but won't be winning any races any time soon.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 25, 2017, 02:36:44 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 25, 2017, 02:37:23 pm
Spoiler: Comic about armor (Warning: mild sexual overtones, view at your own peril.) (click to show/hide)
This could have been us a few turns ago. And that first box on the second row, perfect representation of Moskerblurgers.
Once again, we're past the whole armor thing, but I couldn't resist posting this here.
For our second revision we could add a Steam Condenser to our engines so that we can use freshwater instead of salt, which will solve a lot of our issues.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 25, 2017, 02:44:33 pm
You guys should beat them to the punch and do a revision for Armor Bikinis.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 25, 2017, 02:45:34 pm
Steam engines are far enough understood that assuming non-awful rolls, another design or revision could possibly make them reasonable to use. So we don't need to spend so much time at once working on it.
But we're much closer to capturing the jungle. If we don't press our advantage now with the Jungle they may just outpace us and ruin the advantage we've spent a ton of time acquiring. The steam engine can wait until after the jungle. Chances are they're also focusing on stopping their losing streak so I doubt they'll do anything in the sea. And even if they do suddenly gain an advantage at sea, we have time then to work on the steam engine. But if we don't work on stuff relevant to the jungle our opportunity will dispappear.
Post by: andrea on April 25, 2017, 03:22:39 pm
I am very happy about our engine, next turn we will probably be able to get a working steam ship. However,
Order: do not deploy the steam engine this turn.
I don't believe our captains need to be told to leave the engines at home, but I want to stress it, for a matter of secrecy.
I also propose this:
Metal caltrops: they thought they were save, lets see them charge horse first on cold hard metal ( this also keeps their horse archers farther)
Quote
Bigger STREAMLINED Fireball: (2) Andres, Roboson
Angled Plate Armour: (0)
Gambeson: (3) 10ebbor10, Azzuro, Andrea
Post by: Roboson on April 25, 2017, 03:54:59 pm
Post by: RAM on April 25, 2017, 04:12:50 pm
Revise summon fog to produce a concentrated fog, A.K.A. water... This can be used for reliably clean water to drink, treat injuries, clean clothes and equipment, make impromptu ice-pools for skating... All without needing to trek across a dangerous warzone to raid a nearby stream nor even set your camp near an oasis while in the middle of a desert...
Oh, what's this? It may have some use with regard to steam? Well I never...
Quote from: revisions
0 Academy: Mathemagical college.
0 Champions(Myark): Card Games.
0 Frost Tower: Cheaper Frost Tower.
3 Streamlined Fireball: Make Streamlined Fireball bigger. Andres, Roboson, RAMSteam Engine: Improved Steam engine
3 Hide Armour: Gambeson. 10ebbor10, Azzuro, Andrea
0 Caltrops: metal caltrops
0 Summon fog: Summon Water.
Quote from: orders
0 channelled fog come in contact with their antimagic
0 crystal within range of our antimagic come into contact with their antimagic. Just put some caltrops in a thane's pockets or something...
0 Abduct one of our own wizards who has had their spells disrupted and bring them here fordissectiondebriefing.
2 do not deploy the steam engine this turn. Roboson, RAM
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 25, 2017, 04:15:51 pm
Post by: RAM on April 25, 2017, 04:24:14 pm
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 25, 2017, 04:26:41 pm
Ehh, probably not, telekinesis is notoriously energy intensive and thus poor at travel spells. Granting life to the wooden boats to allow them to swim on little wooden flippers or summoning a wave upon which to ride or something like that would probably be more viable.Someone did bring up water pulses, which is assisted ships via water jet action to move faster. I saybuse both. Steam engine= iron clad someday
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 25, 2017, 04:30:39 pm
Post by: RAM on April 25, 2017, 04:32:52 pm
Why are we condensing fog instead of just summoning water?Because I just finished editing my previous voting post to add summoning water to it as an option. Ninja...
Post by: Roboson on April 25, 2017, 05:30:54 pm
Honestly, we could make engines that run on a modified fire spell alone. It would work by having streamlined fireball activating rapidly inside a small chamber with several pistons attached. The controlled explosion would push the pistons outwards, which could be transferred into torque like a normal engine. Basically its an internal combustion engine instead of a steam powered engine.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 25, 2017, 05:33:38 pm
Post by: RAM on April 25, 2017, 05:49:13 pm
We really need to do something about their antimagic.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 25, 2017, 06:00:56 pm
Of course, their antimagic seems to be area-based, and the steam is magic-powered, so...Other than the creation of anti-anti-magic, we're going to have to start murdering their mages in their sleep or or spend a revision making it so you can hand fuel the engines.
We really need to do something about their antimagic.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 25, 2017, 06:12:28 pm
Buuuut that would kill a lot of the fun, so I'm on the fence about it. >_>
Edit: The votes are tied between larger streamlined fireballs and anti-arrow hide layer for armor. Someone please break the tie or I will roll the revision for armor bikini's instead.
Post by: andrea on April 25, 2017, 06:19:49 pm
Although, to be fair until the last revision we only used stuff already built in the ancient world(Aeolipile, rope, paddles), it is only with the turbine that we are starting to get ahead of time.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 25, 2017, 06:21:59 pm
I guess I just feel guilty since Moskurg is rolling out assault rifles this turn /s
Post by: andrea on April 25, 2017, 06:29:12 pm
it seems like something which would require even more actions than a steam engine... or better rolls.
I hope you are just messing with us, because if they do have proper assault rifles, it obsoletes my plans for future steam rifles.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 25, 2017, 06:30:58 pm
-> /s <-
^
Post by: RAM on April 25, 2017, 06:34:27 pm
I have been proposing antiantimagicmagic(implying that the antiantimagic should be magical...)...Of course, their antimagic seems to be area-based, and the steam is magic-powered, so...Other than the creation of anti-anti-magic, we're going to have to start murdering their mages in their sleep or or spend a revision making it so you can hand fuel the engines.
We really need to do something about their antimagic.
That, and everyone is allergic to doing any sort of research on the precise effects that their antimagic is having on our stuff. It should be dead-easy to see if it can dispel crystals while wielded by someone with an antimagic charm. If our antimagic absorbs theirs and prevents it from operating within our fields then we will know. Getting a first-hand description of precisely how a wizard's fireball failed would be marvellous. Does it just vanish, does it get sucked away, does it go all wonky and spill everywhere, does 1+1 suddenly equal fat caterpillar? Does it remove our sustained fogs? We can use them to blind the enemy and disrupt their coordination, and do drills to train fighting within fog... if the fog works at all. If sustained magic works then we know it is an instantaneous effect or something that can be countered with persistent magic.
Order: silver cage caltrop delivery method.
make little silver cages, all runic and such, all cosmetic-laden, with a simple knot holding it closed. Fill it with crystal caltrops before a fight and hang it upside-down from a thane with an antimagic charm. If the thane repositions towards the rear, they can pull on the knot, caltrops drop to the ground, someone can witness how long they remain extant. The enemy thinks it is the pointlessly cosmetic baggies protecting them, if it works, if it doesn't then we know that their antimagic is penetrating ours...
We only need, like, half-a-dozen of the things to test the theory...
Order: Fog training.
Train soldiers to fight within fog. Identify allies and keep track of forwards and backwards and walk on uneven terrain and such. Just a couple of squads for now as proof of concept.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 25, 2017, 06:39:01 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 25, 2017, 07:17:51 pm
Quote from: revision
3 Streamlined Fireball: Make Streamlined Fireball bigger. Andres, Roboson, RAM
3 Hide Armour Gambeson: 10ebbor10, Azzuro, Andrea
Need a tie breaker.
Post by: Roboson on April 25, 2017, 07:45:32 pm
I have been proposing antiantimagicmagic(implying that the antiantimagic should be magical...)...Of course, their antimagic seems to be area-based, and the steam is magic-powered, so...Other than the creation of anti-anti-magic, we're going to have to start murdering their mages in their sleep or or spend a revision making it so you can hand fuel the engines.
We really need to do something about their antimagic.
That, and everyone is allergic to doing any sort of research on the precise effects that their antimagic is having on our stuff. It should be dead-easy to see if it can dispel crystals while wielded by someone with an antimagic charm. If our antimagic absorbs theirs and prevents it from operating within our fields then we will know. Getting a first-hand description of precisely how a wizard's fireball failed would be marvellous. Does it just vanish, does it get sucked away, does it go all wonky and spill everywhere, does 1+1 suddenly equal fat caterpillar? Does it remove our sustained fogs? We can use them to blind the enemy and disrupt their coordination, and do drills to train fighting within fog... if the fog works at all. If sustained magic works then we know it is an instantaneous effect or something that can be countered with persistent magic.
Order: silver cage caltrop delivery method.
make little silver cages, all runic and such, all cosmetic-laden, with a simple knot holding it closed. Fill it with crystal caltrops before a fight and hang it upside-down from a thane with an antimagic charm. If the thane repositions towards the rear, they can pull on the knot, caltrops drop to the ground, someone can witness how long they remain extant. The enemy thinks it is the pointlessly cosmetic baggies protecting them, if it works, if it doesn't then we know that their antimagic is penetrating ours...
We only need, like, half-a-dozen of the things to test the theory...
Order: Fog training.
Train soldiers to fight within fog. Identify allies and keep track of forwards and backwards and walk on uneven terrain and such. Just a couple of squads for now as proof of concept.
Or instead or in addition to we give the following order:
Offer a small monetary reward and a commendation ceremony to any soldier who retrieves piece of magical equipment from the enemy.
Then we can experiment with their antimagic all we want. Its likely they did a similar thing, they looted some crystal weapons off our guys, and then figured out a way to break them with magic. That's why their antimagic doesn't work on our fireballs, because its really (probably) anti-crystal magic, not anti-magic magic.
Post by: RAM on April 25, 2017, 08:01:57 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 25, 2017, 08:08:18 pm
Quote from: revision
2 Streamlined Fireball: Make Streamlined Fireball bigger. Andres, Roboson
5 Hide Armour Gambeson: 10ebbor10, Azzuro, Andrea RAM, Stabby
And Roboson I think the reason the anti-magic field doesn't work on our fireballs isn't because they aren't affected by it. Rather the fireball isn't magical just the spell needed to summon it.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 25, 2017, 08:09:09 pm
Also known as an "arming doublet", we modify our existing leather armor to be double-lined and padded. While it has the nice effect of keeping our men nice and warm in the colder months, the main benefit is increased resistance against arrows. It's simply more material that Moskurg arrows will need to travel through to reach the cozy Arstotzkan soldier beneath. Coupled with our existing plate armor, our men are all but invulnerable to arrows - so long as the vulnerable eyeslits aren't targeted, that is.
We use our existing supply of obsolete leather armor to produce the gambesons, meaning we have enough to outfit everyone in our army. Cheap.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 25, 2017, 08:29:51 pm
Quote from: revision2 Streamlined Fireball: Make Streamlined Fireball bigger. Andres, Roboson
5 Hide Armour Gambeson: 10ebbor10, Azzuro, Andrea RAM, Stabby
And Roboson I think the reason the anti-magic field doesn't work on our fireballs isn't because they aren't affected by it. Rather the fireball isn't magical just the spell needed to summon it.
If theory is correct on anti magic. We can focus just on stuff non magician but if summoned in magic way. No problems? Makes sea monsters more valid and other stuff.
Post by: Andres on April 25, 2017, 09:01:05 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 25, 2017, 09:02:51 pm
Or just some kind of revision later to cover the weak points somehow via magical or mundane means.
Perhaps it's not that important now because while their arrows are annoying, the new leather gambesons should make it enough of a non-issue to focus on other things.
In the future we could probably focus on diversifying our advantage. If they find a flaw to focus on in our designs, that nullifies all of the work until we find a way around. But having more advantages instead of "even better armor" means multiple things to counter.
Post by: RAM on April 25, 2017, 09:43:08 pm
arrows only had minor effect ... magically going through their visors, which a gambeson doesn't protect against ... revising our caltrops to be made of metal would've been a better revision.I strongly dislike metal caltrops because it is reinventing stuff that we already have. They turned off our crystals, spending a revision on every single thing that effected will just give us inferior versions of what we already had. If we can attack the source of the problem, and extend a field of mostly reliable magic or something similar, which should be possible with our own antimagic, then it is a somewhat wasted effort. They would have been very good for right now, but weak in the long run. And it would take a large toll on my morale...
The gambeson improves our armour without affecting the full plate that we already got extremely good rolls on and don't want to touch. It also keeps us warm which works wonders with our temperature control.
I would have preferred the fireballs, but the gambeson is a solid choice, that hopefully heads off their arrow development, makes us a little tougher generally and it stopped the turn from being delayed further even though I would have much preferred to have some more time for my own suggestions to become the beloved darlings of the thread...
Did everyone really need to tell the enemy about our antimagic charms in the battle reports. I can't say it was wrong, they do add some lovely flavour, and we got a revision out of it which is nice... but in a couple of turns they will have sound guns that shatter quartz and all we will have is dignity, good looks, and a smashing sense of style, and, well, maybe that will be enough?
Post by: evictedSaint on April 25, 2017, 10:01:10 pm
Neither side develops anything that could help during skirmishes, and continue to do heavy damage to one another in nightly raids. The leather gambeson is nice, but aside from those on guard duty the average soldier doesn't wear full-plate at night and the doublet isn't enough to deflect close-range needle arrows all on its own.
The main fighting in the jungle has begun to stall. Our earlier strategy of sniping their mages is still valid, but its become harder and harder to do. Their mages hide behind tall wooden shields staked into the ground; on occasion we send an arrow through the gap and take them down, but they're simply too cowardly to kill easily any more. In a similar effort to stay alive, their commanders have donned higher-quality suits of lamellar armor, painted brightly and protecting the wearer the way a suit of armor should. Our men begrudgingly admit that while it's not as protective as full plate, it's...well, it's decent armor. It can't deflect an arrow at close range like a good Arstotzkan breastplate, but it's more flexible than our armor. In a melee, one of their squad commanders could beat one of ours in a one on one fight slightly more than half the time. That rarely occurs as their brightly painted armor makes them prime targets for our archers and Moskurg soldiers don't have the balls to fight alone, but it is unsettling. Thankfully, the average Moskurg soldier is still clad in their crappy, rusted lamellar that falls apart at the slightest scratch. They're much easier to kill. Annoyingly, their mages have donned these higher-quality lamellar armor as well, making them slightly more resilient to being shot in the chest. They also carry their big, thick shields into combat and hide behind them while casting. On the offensive they'll get close with their ivory staffs and prevent our mages from smiting attacking Moskurgs with fireballs. A single Moskurg mage can stop several mages from casting at once, preventing us from wiping the floor with their troops. We still win in these melees despite their larger numbers due to our higher quality soldiers, but the margin of victory isn't as much as it was before.
Our gambesons do their job. Before their needle arrows could cause injuries that could incapacitate a soldier, but now they're utterly useless. The only time their archers cause injury is when they find their way into the eyeslits of a helmet, something that happens far more often than it should.
A disturbing development is occurring in the jungle, however - the undergrowth has become less dense over these past few years. This is likely due to the unseasonable snow, fire, lightning, and constant, constant, constant rain. Moskurg soldiers are used to fighting in formation, and in massive numbers. Our soldiers are more adept at fighting man-to-man, in squad tactics. While it hasn't cleared enough yet to make a difference, the dying vegetation has been a concern. Clearer ground would give Moskurg men an advantage in combat. If we can push them out of the jungle then it wont matter, but if fighting stalls indefinitely once more then it could be a problem. Judging by the rate at which the vegetation is dying, it'd be maybe another two years before it's clear enough to make a difference.
Order: Fog Training ([1, 5] = 1)
We issue an order to include fog-training to our soldiers to allow Channeled Fog to be more useful. Due to a miscommunication, our commanders receive the order "Frog" Training. Our men, while confused, trust in the people who have given them fabulous new weapons and begin a thorough regimen of frog-work. Due to the many toxic species of frogs who live in the jungle we end up losing several squads of soldiers. It shakes the men's faith in the design team and their moral goes down for this year.
Order: Magical Equipment Recovery Program ([2, 6] = 2)
We issue an order to recover Moskurg equipment in battle, offering the reward of monetary compensation for magical items. We are immediately flooded with a couple hundred men claiming to have found Moskurg wands and charms after the first battle. It takes a considerable amount of time to sift through all the results - wand-shaped twigs, colorful rocks, homemade charms, a severed thumb - but eventually we do find one item that is, in fact, magical in nature. Well...three items, technically. Some of our men managed to recover one of Moskurgs ivory staffs, but in order to increase the amount of reward money they could claim they divided the staff between the three of them. It's certainly very pretty, made of carefully engraved ivory, but there's not much to learn from it once broken. The men are paid their reward and we discontinue the reward program.
Now that their mages aren't dying before they can even cast the fighting has become more even. We're still in the lead though, and if nothing changes we can push them out of the jungle next year, but the balance of power is starting to shift against us.
The Theatre Commander asks that you stop fooling about with hot air and design something to help secure the jungle. If we could get our crystal weapons back then we could slaughter them all tomorrow. If we could use our mages more effectively on the defensive we could route them more soundly. Their anti-magic is a problem, and if we don't stop it we may soon find ourselves in the same position Moskrug did last year - without useful mages.
Neither side gains ground in the jungle.
With no new advancements to be used on the seas, neither side makes advancements here.
The Theatre Commander contemplates the advancements you've made with the steam engine, but he's still not convinced. The fire makes him nervous, and the weight makes the ship sit alarmingly deep in the water. Even a minor breach in the hull might be enough to send a boat to the bottom of the ocean. He does begrudgingly admit that perhaps it could carry its weight - eventually. After a lot of work, anyways. He also notes that the sailors have taken up the leather Gambesons happily, as they help deflect rare long-range Moskurg arrow and keep the wearer warm in inclimate weather.
Neither side makes coastal gains in the Western Sea.
Expense Credit!!! The tales of magic being cast as easily as breathing has traveled, apparently. We spy a foreign vessel sailing into our harbor claiming to be a trader. The captain is a fellow by the name of "T’ung-K’ao"...we think. He doesn't speak our language, but it's clear he's here to trade. His ship sits heavy in the water with all manner of gold and silver, and his men are clad in strange clothes. He seems particularly interested in magical artifacts, the flashier the better. After some pantomiming and crude drawings, we figure out he's willing to pay for a supply he can bring back to the outside world.
Our men are suspicious of the outsiders, and many of the wizards aren't keen on sharing our hard-earned magical prowess with others. It could be a trap, but he seems honest enough. Should we trade with him? If so, what should we trade? If we do trade, we should make enough to earn an expense credit. Of course, we could always just seize his ship - judging by how deeply it sits in the water, there should be enough treasure on board for possibly two expense credits...
It is 926, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 926 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 25, 2017, 10:11:46 pm
Problems to fix in the jungle:
- Their mages have shields. This hampers our anti-mage units. This is bad.
- Their mages have armor. This also hampers our anti-mage units, which is also bad.
- The jungle is disappearing. This is bad. This is not a good thing. This should be fixed.
So what if we had some kind of enchanted arrows for our anti-mage unit? Fire or frost or something that could make their mages' new protection useless. Fire could potentially work since their armor still isn't the most effective thing and their shields are wooden.
Other idea: What about some method to grow vegetation? It could be used for more than just preventing the disappearing of the jungle, and could possibly improve effectiveness in skirmishes.
Miscellaneous idea: If pursued, would crossbows be an improvement in terms of effectiveness in scenarios like the mage hunters? I don't recall too much from history about the effectiveness of crossbows versus long bows, but I'd imagine that with Arstotzka's long bows already existing and the fact that I'm pretty sure crossbows' #1 advantage was ease of use, they wouldn't help too much with mage hunting.
Post by: Roboson on April 25, 2017, 11:34:15 pm
Plant manipulation: Through the manipulation of mathemagics, our mages have found a way to control plants through magic. This allows us to make them grow incredibly fast, and allows us to move/control them from a distance.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 26, 2017, 12:03:05 am
Plant Manipulation. 1 tyrant
Aside that study the ivory wand to find way to counter magic and get our crystals back.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 26, 2017, 12:22:01 am
I'm down for taking a break from steam engines to invest in Plant Manipulation.
Plant manipulation: Through the manipulation of mathemagics, our mages have found a way to control plants through magic. This allows us to make them grow incredibly fast, and allows us to move/control them from a distance.
I don't think opening a new branch of magic is the way to go.
Post by: RAM on April 26, 2017, 12:23:59 am
Plant growth could extend our knowledge into healing magic and buy us time to work on steam... Would also grant us the ability to transform the terrain more to our liking. If the whole jungle got up and walked into the desert...
If we win the sea it should grant a bonus to the jungle...
Antimagic arrows: An exploding antimagic charm included into the back of an arrowhead. It sticks into the shield and blocks magic, until it explodes...
Antimagic bombs
An oversized arrowhead made of quartz, composed of many facets of miniaturised antimagic crystal. It contains a core of explosive antimagic charm with spines extending outwards to draw the initial magic to itself. These need to be stored with a proper antimagic charm as they will explode after relatively little contact with active magic. The effect is that should they strike a hard surface, they will tend to scatter antimagic facets around the area. Should they strike a soft surface, they will explode relatively soon due to contact with ambient magic and scatter antimagic facets around the area. This will consume the magic in a large(compared to the charm's coverage) area making conventional spellcraft impossible for a short time before the tiny crystals become overloaded and burst into flame, creating an incendiary hazard. forcing enemy wizards to relocate during a heated battle can only be of benefit.
The bombs themselves are a very simple act of putting an antimagic charm on an arrow. The actual magic development here, of course, is the magically-stimulated growth of quartz into specific forms. Many mathemagicians died(Well, missed sleep and were called nerds) to bring us these plans.
Codpiece-Rippers
The name is an unfortunate tale. It started with an unwillingness to use something obvious, loitered in tales of high piracy on the open seas, dove into bawdy romances, then took a turn for the offensively rebellious... The design, however, is for a larger longship. With two steam-plants and four oar-wheels(named paddle to some), it implements gemwork and systems from the forever frost tower to enhance the reliability and control of the spells but primarily implements a system of gears and belts to not only force the steam-power onto the mechanisms but also allow external power to be applied. Essentially, there are four rows of spokes which can be gripped and pulled in a motion similar to that of rowing to apply additional force to the oar-wheels. We no longer need to choose between steam and manpower, but can implement both! The key here is the complex gear systems that allow multiple input sources and alternate power->speed ratios. We also took the time to implement some obvious body-work, such as copper-cladding to increase hardness, a large ram with which to break any puny kegger vessels it strikes, and a forecastle to better besiege enemies. There are concerns about its ability to steer, but its insult-power is unmatched.
Spell permissions
We delve into the patterns of the antimagic charms to discern the precise workings of their magic absorption and to put very specific constraints upon them, allowing a selection of spells to be cast within their influence.
Antimagic crystals
Our crystalline construct, the axes, caltrops, lances and such, now act as low-quality antimagic charms by mimicking quartz. Only really able to protect themselves from magic, and perhaps nullifying the magical abilities of anyone touching one, they will serve as not only a revival of the species but also a more effective tool against opposing mages.
Plant-growth
By magically imbuing them with vitality-infused magic we stimulate the sudden growth of flora. It can be used for impromptu fortifications, knotted and spiky footing, or even cause tree-branches and roots to burst into enemy formations with far more force(though perhaps greatly lacking in speed) than required to pierce a dozen armoured horses.
Pillar of unmagic
By focusing all of our mathemagical and trigothaumical developments, along with our experience of the forever frost towers, we construct a great tower with an intricate core of quartz, with dimond studding on key locations allowing exposed magical pathways which permit fine control of the effect. This is, in essence, a giant antimagic charm, but capable of detailed attunement. It will, with careful handling and a large amount of time spent measuring its effects and trial-and-erroring precisely what is needed, be able to select a single spell and absorb all instances of it within a single theatre of battle.
Permanent conjuration
With our magic being unmade, we must do what has defeated us so often in the past, and make fully mundane that which we conjure from myth.
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Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 26, 2017, 12:46:51 am
I'm down for taking a break from steam engines to invest in Plant Manipulation.
Plant manipulation: Through the manipulation of mathemagics, our mages have found a way to control plants through magic. This allows us to make them grow incredibly fast, and allows us to move/control them from a distance.
I don't think opening a new branch of magic is the way to go.
Two things:
1: Must counter the destruction of the jungle for tactical reasons. And the jungles main resource is wood. Which we are destroying in horrific amounts. So if we win it and blast it away without a means to regenerate the jungle, what's the point?
2: Element of surprise! They will not think we will get the jungle to go groot on them.
I feel after securing jungle we then go full steam with steam ships, kick their butts at sea. Then roll through desert in steam tanks as fleet beats them to corner. Should it work out. Gotta think three paces ahead, and prayer for good dice.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 26, 2017, 12:52:13 am
Remote Casting The ability to cast a spell from where one isn't, allowing our wizards to summon fireballs from the back of the enemy lines, bypassing their childs, or tricking them to think ambush are where they aren't.
Summon Pack Rather than summoning the tiny wasps, we summon the feared Artotzkan wolves that inhabit the taiga. Minor adjustements made as part of the spell give them a hatred for Moskurgians.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 26, 2017, 12:58:18 am
Post by: Roboson on April 26, 2017, 01:17:50 am
You are forgetting that the enemy have anti-magic staves. Animated jungle plants can not reach them, the snimation spell would stop dhort of target. Only spells that are cast from a distance and then continue non-magically will work.
Eh, they only use anti-magic during melee as far as I can tell, and plant magic would be great during routes and skirmishes. It can be used quite defensively as well (walls of trees and vines suddenly appearing just outside the range of their staffs, poison ivy growing over their encampment while they sleep, thorny bushes sprouting up around their horse archers feet. The possibilities of this school of magic are pretty large if we choose to pursue them).
And if they use the antimagic to stop us moving the plants (which as far as I can tell won't undo what we've already done), then we can send in wasps. They'll have to stop casting the anti-magic and start casting wind. When they do that, we hit them with more plants. Their own antimagic will prevent them from stopping us.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 26, 2017, 01:21:51 am
Blizzard tower: An upgrade of the tower of frost that allows us to control the cold more directly. We can plunge specific areas into deep cold while leaving our camps less effected as well as turning rain into snow and hale.
Shield Wall: Large, thicker shields made of metal made to be used in formation. Should block the new arrows much more effectively.
Stable Crystal Lances: By more deeply tying the crystal effect to the pattern of a gem stone we prevent the crystal from shattering unless the gem itself is damaged.
Post by: Roboson on April 26, 2017, 01:44:20 am
Why counter the destruction of the jungle?
Because if we don't Moskboogers get a bonus there like they do on the plains.
Post by: andrea on April 26, 2017, 05:01:51 am
anyway, voting time. I believe that we should not design more dispellable things before we can solve the dispelling problem. overwhelming them is not an option, since it is stated that one of them can dispel many of our.
Because of that, I am voting for antimagic bombs, although it pains me to stop progress toward steam engine.
Shield wall I believe is not needed right now, since gamberson seems to have solved our problems.
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I am also throwing one more idea, although mostly for the future. Could be useful to snipe enemy mages.
Portable steam ranged weapon ( to be named steam arquebus) Inspired by the early accidents with our steam engines, our engineers got the idea to weaponize them. A small boiler is mounted in a backpack configuration, with a fire spell providing heat and a water (or "condensed fog") summoning spell providing steam. This steam is then channeled to a metal tube, where it can be used to propel small darts or other metal projectiles at high velocity and range. Projectiles are loaded from the open end (lets call it "muzzle"), a trigger controls the release of steam in the metal tube from the boiler, the power of the shot depending on the time between activations. A relief valve allows steam pressure to not exceed max when not in use.
A cold spell deriver from the tower of frost keeps the back on our soldiers cool, even with the hot metal nearby.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 26, 2017, 05:06:05 am
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Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 26, 2017, 06:45:00 am
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Post by: Andres on April 26, 2017, 08:09:18 am
For now, I will vote for doing what we are being told extremely explicitly is the best way to secure victory. Seriously.
Make crystal weapons continue working.
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Steal the expense credits. We have superior armour, superior melee weapons, and superior squad tactics, so stealing it should be possible, even if Moskurg tries to get it too.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Azzuro on April 26, 2017, 08:17:30 am
Did everyone really need to tell the enemy about our antimagic charms in the battle reports. I can't say it was wrong, they do add some lovely flavour, and we got a revision out of it which is nice... but in a couple of turns they will have sound guns that shatter quartz and all we will have is dignity, good looks, and a smashing sense of style, and, well, maybe that will be enough?
I didn't think the reports would be posted to the other side as well, else I wouldn't have written that. Anyway, at least now we know their antimagic spell is named Tubikh Rrahim, though not sure what use that would be.
On the turn:
-the new armour is worrying. It's officer limited for now, but they may revise it down to normal cost.
-Jungle deforestation: basically it's the GM telling us to hurry up and finish them off already, else our chance to do so may slip away forever.
-while admittedly hilarious, was there any reason at all to do Fog training? I don't recall that our units were ever said to have a disadvantage working in fogs.
>install steam engines in the jungle to create hot steam, bringing the climate back to normal jungle. (10th century ecology!)
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Voting for the antimagic
I would really rather implement our steam engines, but those provide a far more delayed effect to our combat in the jungle, which has just become time-sensitive. As for plant manipulation, while it sounds cool, it can wait until after the steamships are in play. We have enough half-finished spells as it is.
Also, what should we do about the trader? evictedSaint, from your writing it sounds like the trader has only approached us as he's in our harbour, but can we ask him if he's approached the Moskurgians as well?
Anyway, I think we should either sell him the Wand of Fireballs for shitloads of gold, or impound his ship for failing to comply with section-94-subsection-iii-clause-3a-amendment-4 of the Arstotzkan Harbor Tax Declaration. Before you go all "WTF!" at the thought of selling him the enormously powerful thing we only have one of, consider this: It's obsolete, we haven't used it for countless turns since Myark is busy with the Tower of Frost, we've already gotten many fireball-derivate magics such as firewalls, smaller fireballs, fire wasps out of it, and we've got clear expertise in making magical objects as well, such as the charms and gem-anchored crystals. In short, both the 'wand' and 'fireball' aspects we have down pat, so why not sell it off since we're not using it?
Also, the wand is the most attractive thing to sell. The Tower is obviously out of the question, and Antimagic Charms would be pretty useless as there aren't any magic-users outside of Forenia. Crystal weapons are cool, but definitely can't beat fireballs for flashiness.
The other option is to take a gamble and seize his ship. Remember, he's a trader, and war is good for business - chance are he'll pay for whatever we sell him and sell it on to Moskurg for double the price. Although, this could be worth it if Moskurg takes a several-turn detour down fire magics. Although although, we probably don't want to mess with a guy who sailed across two oceans in a tenth-century ship.
Comedy option: convince him the steam engine is magical (it sort of is!) and sell him that instead. Then thirty years later, as Forenia is finally united, watch the Song dynasty invade Forenia with steam ironclads, having conquered the rest of Eurasia with steam power.
EDIT: Andres, I want to get our crystals working again, but how? Antimagic crystals don't seem likely to work, as that's essentially what we tried multiple times in the course of making the charms.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 26, 2017, 08:33:23 am
A crystal vessel, filled with water and the simple firewall spell we use for our steam engine. The water is boiled to steam by the flame, and the moment a Moskurgian dispeller comes close, both crystal and flame disappear. The steam remains however, boiling them alive.
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Make crystal weapons continue working.
This suggestion ignores the actual issue. Remember, what crystal equipment do we have? We have the crystal axes, and the crystal lances.
The axes are not that important. We have both swords and normal axes to replace them, neither of which is too inferior.
The lances are the issue. Without a lance as primary weapon, our heavy cavalry has trouble making a big push. However, we're in the jungle, so cavalry is not entirely dominant.
So, crystal weaponry is not as important as the reports make it seem. A revision to our lances should be enough to get those in the fight, no need for an entire design.
That said, opening a new field of research and hoping for immediate results is not the smartest move on can make.
You are forgetting that the enemy have anti-magic staves. Animated jungle plants can not reach them, the snimation spell would stop dhort of target. Only spells that are cast from a distance and then continue non-magically will work.
Eh, they only use anti-magic during melee as far as I can tell, and plant magic would be great during routes and skirmishes. It can be used quite defensively as well (walls of trees and vines suddenly appearing just outside the range of their staffs, poison ivy growing over their encampment while they sleep, thorny bushes sprouting up around their horse archers feet. The possibilities of this school of magic are pretty large if we choose to pursue them).
And if they use the antimagic to stop us moving the plants (which as far as I can tell won't undo what we've already done), then we can send in wasps. They'll have to stop casting the anti-magic and start casting wind. When they do that, we hit them with more plants. Their own antimagic will prevent them from stopping us.
You are assuming you will get all that. You won't.
The idea that we will be able to Make fortifications, use plants offensive in battle, use plants offensively in skirmishes, use plants ecologically to revise the forest is way to optimistic.
It's new research, you'll be lucky if you get a petunia to bloom.
Oh, and the Wasp plan relies on there being no more than 1 Moskurgian mage. That is not the case. A single Moskurgian can blow wasps away from many places. If wasps were an effective counter for antimagic, we'd already be using them.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 26, 2017, 08:58:30 am
Comedy option: convince him the steam engine is magical (it sort of is!) and sell him that instead. Then thirty years later, as Forenia is finally united, watch the Song dynasty invade Forenia with steam ironclads, having conquered the rest of Eurasia with steam power.
+1.
~~~
+1 to Antimagic Bombs.
I figure once the plants die off, we mind control their horses.
~~~
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3 Plant Manipulation. Tyrant, RAM, Stabby
4 Antimagic bombs Andrea, 10ebbor10, Azzuro, FallacyofUrist
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Post by: evictedSaint on April 26, 2017, 09:25:34 am
Quote
can we ask him if he's approached the Moskurgians as well?
Due to the language barrier, it's not entirely clear whether he understands you. He only speaks two languages: some weird choppy foreign tongue, and business.
Post by: andrea on April 26, 2017, 10:39:33 am
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 26, 2017, 10:57:13 am
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 26, 2017, 10:59:21 am
Did everyone really need to tell the enemy about our antimagic charms in the battle reports. I can't say it was wrong, they do add some lovely flavour, and we got a revision out of it which is nice... but in a couple of turns they will have sound guns that shatter quartz and all we will have is dignity, good looks, and a smashing sense of style, and, well, maybe that will be enough?
I
On the turn:
-the new armour is worrying. It's officer limited for now, but they may revise it down to normal cost.
-Jungle deforestation: basically it's the GM telling us to hurry up and finish them off already, else our chance to do so may slip away forever.
-while admittedly hilarious, was there any reason at all to do Fog training? I don't recall that our units were ever said to have a disadvantage working in fogs.
>install steam engines in the jungle to create hot steam, bringing the climate back to normal jungle. (10th century ecology!)Quote2 Plant
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Edit: Sell Crystal axes. We do not need them.
Post by: Roboson on April 26, 2017, 11:10:41 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 26, 2017, 11:13:09 am
Post by: Roboson on April 26, 2017, 11:37:48 am
Edit: Also if he won't buy the axes, steal his money.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 26, 2017, 12:34:53 pm
Quote
Antimagic bombs
An oversized arrowhead made of quartz, composed of many facets of miniaturised antimagic crystal. It contains a core of explosive antimagic charm with spines extending outwards to draw the initial magic to itself. These need to be stored with a proper antimagic charm as they will explode after relatively little contact with active magic. The effect is that should they strike a hard surface, they will tend to scatter antimagic facets around the area. Should they strike a soft surface, they will explode relatively soon due to contact with ambient magic and scatter antimagic facets around the area. This will consume the magic in a large(compared to the charm's coverage) area making conventional spellcraft impossible for a short time before the tiny crystals become overloaded and burst into flame, creating an incendiary hazard. forcing enemy wizards to relocate during a heated battle can only be of benefit.
The bombs themselves are a very simple act of putting an antimagic charm on an arrow. The actual magic development here, of course, is the magically-stimulated growth of quartz into specific forms. Many mathemagicians died(Well, missed sleep and were called nerds) to bring us these plans.
It's all pre-existing technology.
We had exploding magical charms, we have arrows, we have non-exploding magical charms.
The bomb is a confusing name, TBH.
Post by: andrea on April 26, 2017, 01:16:44 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 26, 2017, 01:34:19 pm
On a side note, next time, let's try to introduce some plausible, yet non-existing technologies.
Post by: Roboson on April 26, 2017, 01:42:46 pm
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Meh, I like plant manipulation, but its a school of magic and we really need something with results now. So anti-magic arrowbombs.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 26, 2017, 01:52:22 pm
Quote2 Plant Manipulation. Tyrant, RAMI'll second that simply because these would help us defeat those shield and possible increase our ability to skirmish as we would force their mages to be even ore careful with their magic.
6 Antimagic bombs Andrea, 10ebbor10, Azzuro, FallacyofUrist, Roboson, Stabby
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Also could we improve this later to form handgrenades? We could combine that and the flame venom from the wasps to create so insanely dangerous items.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 26, 2017, 03:34:56 pm
Though our earlier incidents with exploding anti-magic charms was done with diamonds, it doesn't take much to modify our new quartz charms to also explode. It's even easier to do, in fact, thanks to the lower quality of the material. Once we have the spellwork down it's a simple matter of enchanting quartz crystals cut into the shapes of arrowheads to fashion our first anti-magic arrow.
As an extra bonus, we've managed to specify the crystal to reach peak temperature before shattering violently; the shrapnel does most of the damage to soft, unarmored tissue, but the super-heated crystal shards can start fires if they land in dry grass or soft fabrics.
Hitting a mage with an arrow will likely result in death for the target and minor lacerations for unarmored bystanders. Unfortunately, the relatively low stopping power of a crystal shard means they wont be able to penetrate shields and armor once the arrow head explodes, but we've noted that if it explodes once shot into a wooden shield it will punch a small hole through it. Sustained fire against shielded enemy mages will slowly reduce their cover so long as they cast.
Due to the complexity of crafting anti-magic charms and fashioning them into perfectly weighted arrows, they are Expensive and will be given exclusively to our Mage-Hunter squads.
A minor problem we've noticed; the arrow head doesn't discern between friendly magic and enemy magic. The entire quiver will explode suddenly and violently in the presence of any magic, including our own. As a precaution, our Mage Hunters will be kept as far away from our magical forces as possible. Expensive.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 26, 2017, 03:40:09 pm
Post by: andrea on April 26, 2017, 03:44:50 pm
or maybe start working on the steam engine to optimize turbine?
friend or foe identification for our magic stuff would also be nice.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 26, 2017, 03:45:25 pm
The design is critically flawed, even though we rolled a 5 on the flaws section. What happened to keeping a normal anti-magic charm in the quiver?
Hell, thd entire thing is garbage.
We rolled 6 on damage => Can't pierce through any kind of armor, greatest trouble with shields. Explosion harmless to surroundings.
Post by: andrea on April 26, 2017, 03:47:28 pm
Or revise the thing so we get friend or foe identification, which would have potential usefulness elsewhere.
edit: Magical bypass: our anti magic charms are built to allow a specific vibration of magic to pass through unhindered. Our mages are trained to cast using it, therefore avoiding interference with our charms
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 26, 2017, 03:53:22 pm
Fire Balls are good. But we got whole war for that as they still function.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 26, 2017, 03:56:14 pm
Really, the Moskurgians use wind spells to push our arrows aside. A single spell if theirs and our entire anti-wizard squad is gone. I don't know why the GM did it, but this design is something I'd associate with a 1,4,1 roll, not a 6,4,5.
It is of far greater harm to our own forces (remember, anti-wizard hunters include apprentices as part of their firepower) than it will ever be to the enemy. It's less usefull than any basic fireball, as it can only deal with unarmored wizards, for whom we can just as easily use a regular arrow.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 26, 2017, 03:58:07 pm
Dragon's Fireball: Make the Greater Fireball use the waste heat for additional power already.
Study Staff Material: Okay, sure, it's not ideal, but let's see what we can learn from the staff fragments. Maybe it's the material itself that has the anti-magic properties.
Micro Fireball: It's even smaller and shorter ranged than our Streamlined Fireball. Why make this? So we can have a go at teaching our normal forces a little magic. Even if each of our normal men can only cast two per battle, that's a lot of tiny fireballs.
Anti-Anti Magic Amulet: Create a variant of the Anti-Magic Amulet. One: a little bit less coverage, only enough to cover a single mage. Two: this amulet, instead of blocking casting, blocks the blocking of casting, at least by our own amulets. It's doubtful as to whether or not it'll work on their staffs, but at least it'll let our mages cast without fear of being cut off from magic by our own amulets, and it's a start, anyway. ((Closer to a new design warning.))
Improved Normal Arrows: We are farming trees for wood arrows, right? Why not breed the trees to make better arrow wood? Okay, generally, tree breeding takes a while, but we're mages, we'll make it work.
Bomb Arrowhead Molds: Using a mold for our Anti-Magic Arrowheads, we can more cheaply and efficiently manufacture them(by letting the spell to create the arrowheads fill the mold instead of constraining it manually).
~~~
Quote
Dragon's Fireball: 0
Study Staff Material: 0
Micro Fireball: 0
Anti-Anti Magic Amulet: 0
Improved Normal Arrows: 0
Bomb Arrowhead Molds: 0
I particularly like the molds and the Dragon's Fireball ideas.
~~~
Order : Do not deploy anti-magic-arrows. They are garbage.Well, we do have anti-magic amulets for that... maybe the anti-magic amulets prevent the arrows from detecting magic? Hopefully?
Post by: andrea on April 26, 2017, 04:00:21 pm
And our steam engines, I suppose.
@ebbor I am not sure of their interaction with moskurg wind shield. they might explode in flight actually. and I would not use orders to not deploy them before knowing if we are going to revise them to work better. besides, they can deflect but those arrows do not need a direct hit.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 26, 2017, 04:04:34 pm
Quote
Well, we do have anti-magic amulets for that... maybe the anti-magic amulets prevent the arrows from detecting magic? Hopefully?
Wouldn't count on it. If they did, it would be mentioned.
Quote
@ebbor I am not sure of their interaction with moskurg wind shield. they might explode in flight actually. and I would not use orders to not deploy them before knowing if we are going to revise them to work better. besides, they can deflect but those arrows do not need a direct hit.
A moskurgian need but to cast a single spell upon our forces to explode all their weapons. A single gust of wind in the wrong place, and our elites are disarmed.
And the arrows absolutely need a direct hit. The shards can not get through armor, and all Moskurgian wizards wear it. They are no better than our regular arrows.
This is by no interpretation a succesfull design.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 26, 2017, 04:06:46 pm
Literal Anti-Magic Arrows: An arrow with a pointy Anti-Magic Amulet as an arrowhead. The idea is we shoot them at enemy mages to prevent their casting.
Much safer than arrows that might explode in our face.
Quote
Dragon's Fireball: 0
Study Staff Material: 0
Micro Fireball: 0
Anti-Anti Magic Amulet: 0
Improved Normal Arrows: 0
Bomb Arrowhead Molds: 0
Literal Anti-Magic Arrows: 0
Post by: andrea on April 26, 2017, 04:07:56 pm
ideally, we should also get a summon spell to get water rather than use salt water, but I doubt there will be time for it.
Quote
Dragon's Fireball: 0
Study Staff Material: 0
Micro Fireball: 0
Anti-Anti Magic Amulet: 0
Improved Normal Arrows: 0
Bomb Arrowhead Molds: 0
Magic bypass: 0
Fine tuned steam turbine: 0
Literal anti-magic arrow
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 26, 2017, 04:08:31 pm
And wouldn't the wind wall like pre mature denotate to fry/dispel it? As it goes boom via impact.
But yeah it depends if magic charged wind premature explode or sends it back then explodes on us. That's game breaker. Darn those swine for their wind magic.
Still cannot decide on revision. I mean we could just go about more fire balls. Or what not. As long we cast it off before those anti magic buggers disrupt casting. But we do not know range.
Maybe we should study their wand/staff. But not making a solid vote yet.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 26, 2017, 04:10:25 pm
Quote
Fireball: [4-1, 1-1, 3-1] With the wand to serve as a base, you begin the process of recreating the spell without needing your priceless artefact. Fortunately, you have plenty of Moskurger prisoners to practice on, and plenty of disposable apprentices. After disposing of a number of said prisoners and apprentices, you have successfully managed to replicate the spell without the wand. Unfortunately, there have been a number of drawbacks. Whilst the newly produced fireballs are just as potent as the wand's fireballs, to summon them requires an absurdly elaborate ritual circle to be drawn, forcing the user to stand in one place to cast from, and which is so complex that only Myark is skilled enough to cast it anyway. Worse still, the activation of the spell puts out terrible amounts of waste heat, which make the area around the caster blisteringly hot. Although only a few soldiers have died from the heat, pain and scarring are causing a drop in morale where the spell is cast.
This is a 3 0 2 design.
It's far more combat effective, and far less dangerous than the arrows we got on our supposedly succesfull design.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 26, 2017, 04:12:21 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 26, 2017, 04:18:40 pm
Damn that is a fact. The numbers were ages ago and we still use fire ball. Got "good numbers" for the anti bomb arrow. And too risky. Funny that.
Yup. With the rolls we got I expected :
1) No friendly fire risk due to magic insulative container
2) Charm induced distortion field allowing it to break through magical defenses
3) An explosion that tears apart shields and surrounding if it gathered enough magical energy.
At the very least, a 645 design should be something we can confidently unleash upon the battlefield without needing revisions. This spell needs two.
Powerfull Streamlined Fireball : 1
Dragon's Fireball: 0
Study Staff Material: 0
Micro Fireball: 0
Anti-Anti Magic Amulet: 0
Improved Normal Arrows: 0
Bomb Arrowhead Molds: 0
Literal Anti-Magic Arrows: 0
A simple revision to improve the power of our smallest fireball significantly, usefull both at sea and at land.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 26, 2017, 04:24:09 pm
Powerfull Streamlined Fireball : 2
Dragon's Fireball: 0
Study Staff Material: 0
Micro Fireball: 0
Anti-Anti Magic Amulet: 0
Improved Normal Arrows: 0
Bomb Arrowhead Molds: 0
Literal Anti-Magic Arrows: 0
I'll support that, and the arrows are really as good as I hoped but I guess they suffer from working too well as intended.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 26, 2017, 04:32:53 pm
Notice: I noticed in battle reports when they turn in staffs, we can snipe them with arrows. Wonder if they have their own issues overcoming their own dispelling. Just a observation. ( As a true troll defense with be wand and wind wall. A convo that has not happened.)
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 26, 2017, 04:34:46 pm
Our Greater Fireball, however, has a flaw that actually harms our troops. Fixing that and boosting its power at the same time seems like a better idea to me.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 26, 2017, 04:37:47 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 26, 2017, 04:46:45 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 26, 2017, 04:49:17 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 26, 2017, 04:51:23 pm
~~~
What if we revised our new bomb arrows to hold more magic before they explode, leading to a bigger explosion and reducing the threat of friendly fire?The extra time you gave our archers to throw away their bomb arrows just got offset by the larger explosion they got caught in.
~~~
Ninja:
Then we expose our own elite troops to greater harm.Exactly.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 26, 2017, 05:06:24 pm
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 26, 2017, 05:06:57 pm
After all we researched them. Cannot let anything go to waste. We gotta beat them in the jungle before it becomes waste land. Because if that happens. Calvary Zerg rush of death as no more crystal lances.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 26, 2017, 05:21:14 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 26, 2017, 05:23:52 pm
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 26, 2017, 05:25:05 pm
I say we use a few anti magic bomb arrows. Say one to a elite squad just to have gained something.
Post by: andrea on April 26, 2017, 05:25:46 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 26, 2017, 05:39:50 pm
Revised bomb arrows:
We revise our bomb arrows to take several times the amount of magic required to cause them to explode. This causes them to hold significantly much more magic and do not explode immediately upon being exposed to magic. Instead, they charge up on continuous magic near them until they explode with incredible power. This makes them (relatively) safe for our mage hunters to use. The intention is to lodge the arrows near the enemy mages where their anti-magic and wind magic channel-style spells will charge the arrows until they explode violently.
If we make them require immense amounts of magic, then they won't get very charged by our mages, but they will explode near enemy mages that must continuously cast their spells. Plus, they may do more damage.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 26, 2017, 05:46:49 pm
Anti-magic mines.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 26, 2017, 05:50:38 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 26, 2017, 06:11:30 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 26, 2017, 06:16:13 pm
Preeetty sure their wind can't make our arrows perform 180 degree turns. When only an elite specialized unit is using them, friendly fire should be a non-issue.
Post by: andrea on April 26, 2017, 06:23:49 pm
Also, -1 to not using anti magic arrow order.
Preeetty sure their wind can't make our arrows perform 180 degree turns. When only an elite specialized unit is using them, friendly fire should be a non-issue.
agreed. lets try them first. If they truly prove to be death traps, our soldiers will stop using them anyway.
Post by: Azzuro on April 26, 2017, 06:34:41 pm
+1 to not using anti-magic arrows
As it stands, just one unlucky gust of wind (not even a lightning strike) would likely be fatal for any archer carrying these, along with their squad. It's not that wind magic may turn them back upon us, but rather than the mere presence of enemy magic will make them explode in the quiver.
Revision: Magically Shielded Quivers
With the experience we've gained in making the anti-magic quartz, incorporate an anti-magic charm into the quivers of archers carrying the new arrows, ideally next to the arrowheads. This prevents the antimagic arrows from cooking off prematurely, while the warming of the anti-magic charm warns the archers of magic in the vicinity.
Quote from: Revisions
Powerful Streamlined Fireball : 3, stabby, 10ebbor10, Azzuro
Dragon's Fireball: 0
Study Staff Material: 0
Micro Fireball: 0
Anti-Anti Magic Amulet: 0
Improved Normal Arrows: 0
Bomb Arrowhead Molds: 0
Literal Anti-Magic Arrows: 0
Magically Shielded Quivers: 0
Oh, and vote for what to do about the trader!
Quote from: Trader?
Sell him the fireball wand: 1, Azzuro
Seize his ship: 0
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 26, 2017, 06:37:50 pm
+1 to not using anti-magic arrowsOur mage hunters are already using anti-magic amulets. I don't think wind magic would work against them, or near them...
As it stands, just one unlucky gust of wind (not even a lightning strike) would likely be fatal for any archer carrying these, along with their squad. It's not that wind magic may turn them back upon us, but rather than the mere presence of enemy magic will make them explode in the quiver.
Revision: Magically Shielded Quivers
With the experience we've gained in making the anti-magic quartz, incorporate an anti-magic charm into the quivers of archers carrying the new arrows, ideally next to the arrowheads. This prevents the antimagic arrows from cooking off prematurely, while the warming of the anti-magic charm warns the archers of magic in the vicinity.
~~~
Quote from: Trader
Sell him fireball wand: 1, Azzuro
Sell him steam engine: 1, FallacyofUrist
Seize his ship: 0
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 26, 2017, 06:43:05 pm
1.) Anti-magic charms.
2.) They're not stupid.
3.) Again, wind should almost certainly not make arrows perform 180 degree turns. Like, it shouldn't happen at all. Not "most of the time it won't happen".
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 26, 2017, 07:07:53 pm
Quote from: Trader
Sell him fireball wand: 1, Azzuro
Sell him steam engine: 2, FallacyofUrist, Stabby
Seize his ship: 0
We kinda need to go steam engine since don't we only have one fireball wand? that and we can sell the point that the steam engine is not only useable without years of magically training that has... low survival percentage to say the least and we have a academy to train them.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 26, 2017, 07:13:24 pm
Well, we've done it. The Wand of Fireballs, our National Treasure, the very thing that jumpstarted our nations ascension into magical theory, is now obsolete.
Knowing Mathemagics has been a tremendous boon to understanding the inner workings of the wand, but as we learn more and more it becomes clear the original creators of the Wand of Fireballs didn't understand that particular field of science/magic. The original wand is a mess of spell-work cast haphazardly. Some portions seem dedicated to preventing bugs that aren't even present in the wand. Other portions of the spellwork tap into magical energy in disappointingly inefficient ways. Even more bizarrely, some of the spellwork seems to do nothing at all, being a by-product of a long-ago race's feeble understanding of magic.
Despite the disillusionment our mathemagicians go through, they've taken their understanding of fire and weaved tighter control upon our Streamlined Fireballs to have the same devastating effect as the Wand.
PSF's handle almost all of the magic through the wand, requiring only an apprentice level of magical understanding to use. The spellwork is efficient, clean, and dangerously powerful - the resulting fireball is correctly channeled away from the user, and the explosion can annihilate entire squads at a time. The only downside is that they take longer to recharge between shots than the original Wand, but when every Mage, Wizard, and Apprentice has one the downtime is barely noticeable. Against all odds, cheap.
Post by: RAM on April 26, 2017, 07:24:48 pm
Heat is a problem, remove heat. We know that they burst when they reach the target, so just focus all of the energy on that and create a force-based ball instead of a fire-based ball. This should be a better companion to the smaller fireballs as it offers something different, being able to break hulls instead of burning them and burst trees into splinters instead of fighting the frost and rain constantly.
Also make sure it isn't a national effort, we want them to actually be fielded.
Revision to Myark -> Myark's apprentice.
Myark gets an apprentice that enhances his ability to win duels to the point that Al can potentially be defeated even if our forces are at a disadvantage, thus driving the maniac away for a turn. Can be further revised into an addition hero.
Revision to antimagic charms and antimagic bombs -> quartz growth
As part of the initial design document of the bombs, it is hoped that we have some research in magically growing quartz. If we can get it working we can increase the supply, allowing us to at least equip all of our commanders and wizard-hunters with them.
Revision to antimagic bombs -> Antimagic bombs
Give them the ability to shatter to cover an area in antimagic, rather than the largely redundant ability to burst into an explosion of flame(the theory of trading duration for area doesn't seem too far fetched as a means of miniaturising the charms.). Also include some nifty quartz-growing magic to justify it being a design rather than just a revision of our old flawed charms into an arrowhead.
Orders
test their antimagic: We need to figure out what exactly we are trying to counter.
Use channelled fog:
We tried to train with frogs, it was chaotic and mad, which is very similar to fighting in fog. The survivors of the frog training go into battle under cover of fog. If it vanishes, then we know that the channelling effect does not resist their antimagic.
Use crystal weapons which are protected by antimagic:
This should have happened in the initial engagement but we have no data on it. presumably it does nothing, but we need to know. Equip a group with both antimagic and crystal weapons(AND backup weapons) and have them carry caltrops. If the antimagic charms can't even protect caltrops which are completely immersed in the charm's effect then we know.
Interviews:
Get some survivors from the crystal weapon disaster, what specifically happened to the weapons. We heard they just vanished, no breaking down, just poof, gone. Is this true, because that is a crazy difficult effect to undermine. No amount of stability or hardness can stop instantly being unmade.
Get some wizards who have had their spellcasting disrupted. Did it vanish? Did it bend? Could they not feed it? Was there too much to control... Describe it in detail.
BOMBS:
Give our wizard-hunters some antimagic charms. No magic = the bombs are safe. Kind of all in the original design document but hey, doesn't hurt to check.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 26, 2017, 07:27:31 pm
EDIT: Oh okay you ninja-edited an edit about ninja-edits.
And regarding the new fireball:
Yes.
Yeeees.
DOUBLEDIT:
Future idea for revision (or design?): Expanding the Academy to include mathemagics could very likely help us in designing new things utilizing mathemagics.
TRIPLEEDIT: (I have a problem)
+1 to Sell the trader a steam engine ASSUMING this doesn't somehow delete all knowledge of steam engines in Arstotzka and that it doesn't allow Moskurg to discover the existence of the steam engine.
Post by: RAM on April 26, 2017, 07:34:27 pm
Could that be an order? An apprentice for Myark?I still like the idea of explosive to go along with incendiary, but yes, it is rather problematic with the revision already decided.Also, RAM, your fireball revision seems somewhat obsolete with the Powerful Streamlined Fireballs.
EDIT: Oh okay you ninja-edited an edit about ninja-edits.
And regarding the new fireball:
Yes.
Yeeees.
DOUBLEDIT:
Future idea for revision (or design?): Expanding the Academy to include mathemagics could very likely help us in designing new things utilizing mathemagics.
And I love that idea for revising some sort of vaguely-purposed mathemagical college onto the magic academy. I wish that I had thought of it...
Post by: evictedSaint on April 26, 2017, 07:36:04 pm
Revision to Myark -> Myark's apprentice.This would likely need to be a design.
OrdersThat's because your original order involved complicated runic silver cages to hold the caltrops, which was insane and complicated and I decided to ignore it rather than out-right fail the order.
Use crystal weapons which are protected by antimagic:
This should have happened in the initial engagement but we have no data on it.
Interviews:Since this conceivably happened regardless, I'll go ahead and say you interviewed them.
Get some survivors from the crystal weapon disaster, what specifically happened to the weapons.
Get some wizards who have had their spellcasting disrupted.
- The crystal weapons vanished into aether, the way they normally would without proper magely maintainance.
- The wizards described attempting to cast magic in range of their ivory staffs as a similar feeling to when a child jumps up and down, hoping to fly. It just doesn't happen, no matter how badly they want it to.
At the moment, I need a decision as to what to do about the trader.
Also, if you have any other orders you'd like to process, please state them now.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 26, 2017, 07:43:07 pm
Quote
1 Sell Wand of Fireballs: Azzuro
1 Seize ship: Azzuro
2 Sell crate of crystal weapons: Roboson, 10ebbor10
3 Sell steam engine: FallacyofUrist, stabbymcstabstab, Chiefwaffles
EDIT: And just to be clear, if we sell something that we know how to make (e.g. crystal weapons or steam engine), we don't somehow lose the ability to make that thing, right?
Post by: evictedSaint on April 26, 2017, 07:50:33 pm
And just to be clear, if we sell something that we know how to make (e.g. crystal weapons or steam engine), we don't somehow lose the ability to make that thing, right?
Of course not.
Post by: Roboson on April 26, 2017, 08:00:24 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 26, 2017, 08:04:59 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 26, 2017, 08:09:55 pm
And Roboson: It's useless for war at the moment, no? Moskurg would find it impossible or extremely hard to improve it, too, considering that the steam engine makes heavy use of spells exclusive to Arstotzka. If they wanted to improve it, they'd basically just have to completely redesign it from the ground-up. And if for some strange reason they could just ignore those blocks it's still just as useful to them as it is to us and, hell, it could even serve to sabotage them as something for them to waste time on.
And that's if the trader sells it to them. Which is possible, but unlikely.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 26, 2017, 08:10:32 pm
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 26, 2017, 08:11:38 pm
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 26, 2017, 08:44:13 pm
Hot Air Balloon; By using the Fire Wall spell inside a fortified containing burning wood and coal for hot air. The canvas in a balloon held by wire lifts into the air. With pulley to how much hot air (even steam) is let out based on fuel. The advantage is a harder target, excellent sight and fire ball the hell out of them from above! Problem is mercy of weather (feek off you Moskugrians and your weather magic)
Would mainly be used in recon and helping the navy and some air bombings.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 26, 2017, 08:50:09 pm
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 26, 2017, 08:55:26 pm
And they would not modify it due to pride or just waste time.
And the guy will benefit.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 26, 2017, 08:58:39 pm
What if we went with multiple nice things? A crate of crystal stuff and a steam engine based off of the very first design that we probably have lying around somewhere. Crystal stuff is cool, steam engine is still super cool and flashy despite being useless for just about anything and requiring serious fire-related improvement to do anything at all.
In fact, I think that's the best idea! Sell to the trader: A crate of crystal weapons and a steam engine based off of the very first design.
Please use the quote when giving suggestions/supporting stuff, by the way.
Quote
1 Sell Wand of Fireballs: Azzuro
1 Seize ship: Azzuro
2 Sell crate of crystal weapons: Roboson, 10ebbor10
3 Sell steam engine: FallacyofUrist, stabbymcstabstab, Chiefwaffles
1 Sell original steam engine & crate of crystal weapons: Chiefwaffles
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 26, 2017, 09:09:05 pm
The trader wouldn't be happy to have his goods vanish before his eyes.
Also, even if he trades the steam engine to the Moskurgians... they don't have the fire magic needed to use it.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 26, 2017, 09:30:55 pm
Please use the quote when giving suggestions/supporting stuff, by the way.
Quote
1 Sell Wand of Fireballs: Azzuro[/quote]
1 Seize ship: Azzuro
2 Sell crate of crystal weapons: Roboson, 10ebbor10
4 Sell steam engine: FallacyofUrist, stabbymcstabstab, Turant, Chiefwaffles
1 Sell original steam engine & crate of crystal weapons: Chiefwaffles
Only because I guess the fire thing is needed and if the crappy original version only.
Post by: RAM on April 26, 2017, 09:35:23 pm
I have an image of an old-timey trapper with wooden cages attached to their belt. Except the cages are fancy-looking, but functionally just cages, and tied closed with a bow or something to release with a tug. It seemed like a simple shift in deployment, and only used on a small scale for testing purposes, rather than a new development, but I will endeavour to have no equipment involved in future orders. But that was not the "initial engagement" to which I was referring.OrdersThat's because your original order involved complicated runic silver cages to hold the caltrops, which was insane and complicated and I decided to ignore it rather than out-right fail the order.
Use crystal weapons which are protected by antimagic:
This should have happened in the initial engagement but we have no data on it.
The event I was referring to was the initial dispelling when our crystal weapons were last widely fielded. I believe that some of our crystal weapons would have been wielded by thanes, who would also have had antimagic charms, unless our commanders are all away from the front line in our vikingesque command structure? Can we assume then, that crystals vanished into the aether while within antimagic-charms' fields?
- The crystal weapons vanished into aether, the way they normally would without proper magely maintainance.Thankyou!
- The wizards described attempting to cast magic in range of their ivory staffs as a similar feeling to when a child jumps up and down, hoping to fly. It just doesn't happen, no matter how badly they want it to.
It is sounding like some sort of mundanity field. How like the Keggers to invent a no-fun-zone... Countering it is nasty. It really sounds like low-level wish-granting magic. The only obvious solution is to extend a field of "a wizard did it" to counter the no-fun-zone... Maybe we could try to fake the magic as being mundane? We could try true-naming... If the crystal lances are cosmically ordained to be crystal lances then there is nothing more mundane than being what they are supposed to be...
I am not really feeling the sale, there is no telling what will happen. I expect that the sold designs will be posted in the core thread, but beyond that I wouldn't know...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 26, 2017, 09:49:34 pm
The problem though with the trader is that an expense credit is a really nice thing to have, and a really bad thing for the other side to have.
Post by: Roboson on April 26, 2017, 09:52:48 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 26, 2017, 09:53:33 pm
2.) There will be consequences if we seize it.
Post by: RAM on April 26, 2017, 10:00:20 pm
an expense credit is a really nice thing to have, and a really bad thing for the other side to have.Hence we probably ought to give them something, you know, 'nice'...
Steam engine is beautiful, but a little impractical, and requires a lot of explanation to someone who we can't communicate so well with. We could break the bank by giving them our armour, hauberk and all, but if the keggers could reproduce it that way... We could try the broadswords, but they are not magical at all, there are probably better out there. Our antimagic charms are, well, useless for anyone else... The forever frost tower might be small enough to be transportable as cargo, and we can demonstrate its usage even if it can't be reproduced without support. The crystal weapons are nice, but the trader will go nuclear if they vanish and the crystal weapons would actually be really really effective against us and useless against the keggers... Everything seems to have a horrible downside and I am just too weary right now to look at it.
I can't help but think that there could be some sort of long-term benefit to making this work well. Otherwise we can just fireball their rudder and offer them a nice cottage in the mountains if they turn over their goods(using descriptive pictures), or, if they decide to scuttle their boat, they can help use develop our cold spells...
Then again, seizing the ship might "just" be difficult, with no other consequences. In which case our new fireballs should make it easy, just nuke their steering and propulsion and they really can't make it to another port. It is not like they can turn around to Mosskeg if they can't turn...
Or we could, you know, try being civil. they are not desert-heathens, to the best of our knowledge...
Post by: Roboson on April 26, 2017, 10:04:02 pm
1.) He won't give us the two expense credits. That's only if we forcibly seize the ship.
2.) There will be consequences if we seize it.
Something makes me think that there's no money in the ship. I feel as though we're getting ripped off here. As far as consequences, whats one boat going to do? I'm not worried about that.
Post by: Roboson on April 26, 2017, 10:07:04 pm
Accidentally opened the Arstotskan thread again.Spoiler: Arstotskan Eyes Only (click to show/hide)
Also, is this guy serious? In the main thread where everyone is going to look at even if it says Arstotskan only? That's super not cool.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 26, 2017, 10:10:02 pm
Regardless of precautions we may take, news will get out and will spread to the merchant's nation of origin. Hearing that a new nation forcibly seized and stole the first ship of yours they saw isn't a great start to relations.
And RAM: That's the thing about the steam engine. It's a novel new amazing technology that has the smallest possibility of going horribly wrong if the design gets discovered. Hence why I want to go with the first design steam engine: It has all the benefits the newer ones have to the trader: It's new, novel, and cool. But if it gets discovered by Moskurg, then they get a cool but useless technology that they will have to spend even more time on it than we did because they have no idea how it works in the first place and have no access to fire-based magic.
EDIT: @Roboson's new post:
"""accidently"""
Post by: Roboson on April 26, 2017, 10:29:41 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 26, 2017, 10:36:12 pm
also does anyone have a count of the current vote tally? because I'll admit giving him the first steam engine design wouldn't be a bad idea.
Fakeedit: isn't this the second time they looked in our thread then posted what they saw in the mainthread? We might have to start coding our designs if it keeps up. So go grab your king james bible.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 26, 2017, 10:40:23 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 26, 2017, 10:41:28 pm
If the merchant gives/sells it to Moskurg, then they get the steam engine. Assuming that we sell the merchant the new steam engine, then Moskurg may be able to get a jump start on fire magic, and on the steam engine. Fire stuff completely depends on how evictedSaint views it. The way I see it, one can't really learn how to utilize fire magically based solely on the steam engine, design or no design. But who knows how the GM may spin it. Though they definitely would get the steam engine. They'll either find it useless, or try to adapt it to their own technology/magic techniques. This would take them a decent amount of revision and design credits and cost them quite a bit to get up to the level where we are now with it. Worst case scenario, they waste quite a lot of credits on the steam engine, deploy it, then we revise ours and don't get an advantage for it. Not the end of the world and again, it's the worst case scenario.
@stabby, yes. This is the second time they've done it, and I'm pretty sure it's the same punishment. THIS TOTALLY COUNTS AS ESPIONAGE AND DESERVES EXTREME PUNISHMENT.
And lemme update the vote count:
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1 Sell Wand of Fireballs: Azzuro(I added two separate things for original engine and "original engine & crystal weapons" to be even more precise)
1 Seize ship: Azzuro
2 Sell crate of crystal weapons: Roboson, 10ebbor10
4 Sell steam engine: FallacyofUrist, stabbymcstabstab, Turant, Chiefwaffles
2 Sell original steam engine: Chiefwaffles, stabbymcstabstab
2 Sell original steam engine & crate of crystal weapons: Chiefwaffles
evicted: Can the original steam engine just be amended onto the winning "sell steam engine" action? After all, if you remove stabby and I from the "Sell steam engine" action then the two things are equal.
EDIT: Further thoughts, since I can't help myself:
We should definitely revisit the anti-magic bomb arrows soon. They have huge potential if we can improve them enough. Imagine if they were both cheap and only reacted to enemy magic. That would be a huge boon for us. Hell, we could save the expense credit if we win it and do something about mathemagics/some kind of "identifying signature" Identify-Friend-Foe part in our spells, like a radioactive isotope identifier used in science, to make the anti-magic bombs not respond to our magic.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 26, 2017, 10:57:03 pm
Also, here's a neat idea I had(for the next design phase):
Brainflayer Wasp: A single conjured wasp, which the conjuror has complete control over. The special thing about this wasp is that its sting lays a tiny egg in what it stings. The egg hatches into a larvae, which then makes its way through the bloodstream to the brain, where it will then eat some specified portions of it, effectively lobotomizing the victim. Shortly after, it vanishes into the aether, leaving no evidence behind. Moskurg are going to tear their hair out trying to figure out what's happening, especially if we revise to make the wasp and its sting less noticeable.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 26, 2017, 11:00:44 pm
That's not a bad Idea, actually thing about if we re-introduced one of the "accounts for bugs that don't exist" bits from the original fire-ball wand into a spell. and make it so the spell on the arrows senses that and is made to not try and absorb it we could solve that issue. hell that might be the reason those bits in the original spell existed as a IFF, to work with other spells in some way, or a maker's mark.
EDIT: Further thoughts, since I can't help myself:
We should definitely revisit the anti-magic bomb arrows soon. They have huge potential if we can improve them enough. Imagine if they were both cheap and only reacted to enemy magic. That would be a huge boon for us. Hell, we could save the expense credit if we win it and do something about mathemagics/some kind of "identifying signature" Identify-Friend-Foe part in our spells, like a radioactive isotope identifier used in science, to make the anti-magic bombs not respond to our magic.
How do we detect enemy magic, though? Particular spell detection, maybe, but the magic of a Moskurgian in general?^thats how
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 26, 2017, 11:09:00 pm
And the idea for the anti-magic bombs is like I said: The magical equivalent of the radioactive isotope technique used in various fields of science. The general gist of the radioactive isotopes is that they can be used as markers because they emit mild and harmless radioactive "signals" that can be easily detected by equipment.
The same thing can be applied to our magic - tiny identifiers in them that can only be "seen" if you're explicitly looking for it. Our own anti-magic stuff can, through the magic of non-awful design/revision rolls, ignore the stuff with the identifiers in it. The identifiers should be extremely easy to "place" in existing spells and magic.
Or, in other words, we can have our anti-magic stuff just ignore our magic instead of bending over backwards to have it somehow only apply to enemy magic.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 26, 2017, 11:24:44 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 26, 2017, 11:45:35 pm
Post by: Andres on April 26, 2017, 11:59:38 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 27, 2017, 12:15:46 am
1.) They don't have to be an exact hit. If they land within proximity of magic, they should explode regardless!
2.) They're kind of like mines as well! Since we have some constant anti-magic fields thanks to the charms and since we know about them existing + their location and since the arrows will land near the enemy regardless, and because I don't think we have any kind of passive magical fields, we shouldn't have any notable issues with anti-magic bombs detonating on our own troops. They will detonate when any foolish Moskurgian tries to use magic nearby, though!
3.) Their explosive effects aren't extremely deadly anyways, so for us we'll just have the very rare injured squad and fire, but whenever the Moskurgians hit a dormant anti-magic bomb they'll probably be either retreating or fighting the guys that shot the anti-magic bomb arrow in the first place.
I see bright things in the future for anti-magic bombs!
New vote count WITH Tyrant's name fixed (sorry Tyrant):
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1 Sell Wand of Fireballs: AzzuroI removed stabby, Tyrant, and myself from the list for "Sell steam engine" since I'm fairly sure all of us are switching our votes. Sorry if I messed anything up.
1 Seize ship: Azzuro
2 Sell crate of crystal weapons: Roboson, 10ebbor10
1 Sell steam engine: FallacyofUrist
3 Sell original steam engine: Chiefwaffles, stabbymcstabstab, Tyrant Leviathan
2 Sell original steam engine & crate of crystal weapons: Chiefwaffles
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 01:14:00 am
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That is another one of the anti-magic bombs' benefits, Void
No, it's another of it's drawbacks. We shouldn't have to create a new spell to make lur weapon usefull.
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1.) They don't have to be an exact hit. If they land within proximity of magic, they should explode regardless!
The shards don't breach armor, and Moskurgians have armor, so they have to be direct hit.
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2.) They're kind of like mines as well! Since we have some constant anti-magic fields thanks to the charms and since we know about them existing + their location and since the arrows will land near the enemy regardless, and because I don't think we have any kind of passive magical fields, we shouldn't have any notable issues with anti-magic bombs detonating on our own troops. They will detonate when any foolish Moskurgian tries to use magic nearby, though!
Anti-magic charms do not prevent detonation. If they did, our elite Wizard hunters should not have any issues.
Also, we use mist fields to hide our troops, so we will overrun them and blow ourselves up.
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3.) Their explosive effects aren't extremely deadly anyways, so for us we'll just have the very rare injured squad and fire, but whenever the Moskurgians hit a dormant anti-magic bomb they'll probably be either retreating or fighting the guys that shot the anti-magic bomb arrow in the first place.
Our forces will carry more than one arrow, and carry them close to themselves. In that situation, the arrows can and will be deadly to our own forces. In addition, the moment our troops loose their weapons they will be run down by Moskurgians.
And the Moskurgians won't run from a bomb that's an order of magnitude less scary than the fireballs we routinely throw in their face.
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I see bright things in the future for anti-magic bombs
Face it. The anti-magic arrows are garbage and not in any way representative of their rolls. A simple design based on pre-existing magic with rolls this good should not require 3 revisions to get functional.
Oh, and for those of you who want to sell the steam engine, remember that the Moskurgians may hear about it, ruining the suprise.
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2 Sell Wand of Fireballs: Azzuro, 10ebbor10
1 Seize ship: Azzuro, 10ebbor10
2 Sell crate of crystal weapons: Roboson,
1 Sell steam engine: FallacyofUrist
3 Sell original steam engine: Chiefwaffles, stabbymcstabstab, Tyrant Leviathan
2 Sell original steam engine & crate of crystal weapons: Chiefwaffles
1 Do not deploy anti-magic arrows : 10ebbir10
Please don't make our anti-magic forces kill themselves.
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Elite Anti-Wizard Guard: [4, 6, 4] The anti-wizard guard proves easy to mobilise and rather effective. Plenty of skilled carls and longbowmen have sworn to stand in as a dedicated guard against enemy wizards, and you are easily enough able to draft apprentices in to join the effort. In fact, the endeavour is so effective and attractive to Arstotzkan soldiers, many of whom have lost friends to magically enhanced Moskurger arrows or to al-Mutriqa and the Black Phantasms, that many volunteer with little to no recompense offered. These elite guard will serve as bodyguards for our thanes in battle, and should serve to counteract at least some of the wizards in battle at large; they will not leave their charges' sides to hunt wizards unless they threaten their thane, but they will certainly shoot targets of opportunity when they arise
Our anti-wizard guard uses magic. Losing the ability to cast is not worth it, especially since the arrows are ridicously useless.
You need a dozen arrows to punch through a wooden shield, while even the lowliest Apprentice can now cast a massive fireball that will consume an entire squad of men. Quite clearly, the apprentice us the superior solution.
Post by: andrea on April 27, 2017, 01:30:18 am
I'll add my votes as soon as possible, phone is quite uncomfortable for this.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 01:32:38 am
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3 Sell Wand of Fireballs: Azzuro , 10ebbir10, Andrea
1 Seize ship: Azzuro,
2 Sell crate of crystal weapons: Roboson, 10ebbor10
1 Sell steam engine: FallacyofUrist
3 Sell original steam engine: Chiefwaffles, stabbymcstabstab, Tyrant Leviathan
1 Sell original steam engine & crate of crystal weapons: Chiefwaffles
2 Do not deploy anti-magic arrows : 10ebbir10, Azzuro
1 Do use arrows : Chiefwaffles
This correct?
Post by: andrea on April 27, 2017, 01:33:59 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 27, 2017, 01:38:30 am
But:
And the Moskurgians won't run from a bomb that's an order of magnitude less scary than the fireballs we routinely throw in their face.The advantage here isn't that they're running from the bombs, but that they'll encounter ones that weren't initial hits while running, helping us in the retreat phase.
Oh, and for those of you who want to sell the steam engine, remember that the Moskurgians may hear about it, ruining the surpriseSee my many posts about the unlikely scenario where our steam engine gets leaked to Moskurg.
Also, if I recall correctly, our anti-magic fields aren't particularly huge. You're radically underestimating our anti-mage units: They're smart enough that they won't stand right next to apprentices while they cast spells.
@Andrea: The wand of fireball does give an easy starting point for Moskurgian fire magic, though.
And now the actions. I retroactively added mine and Andrea's support for deploying, but even if it turns out to be a tie shouldn't deployment be the default action?
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3 Sell Wand of Fireballs: Azzuro, 10ebbor10, AndreaRIP a decisive action for the trader.
1 Seize ship: Azzuro
2 Sell crate of crystal weapons: Roboson, 10ebbor10
1 Sell steam engine: FallacyofUrist
3 Sell original steam engine: Chiefwaffles, stabbymcstabstab, Tyrant Leviathan
2 Do not deploy anti-magic arrows : 10ebbor10, Azzuro
2 Deploy anti-magic arrows: Chiefwaffles, Andrea
Lemme go through the two tied actions:
- Sell Wand of Fireballs: If Moskurg gets this, they get to start doing fire magic without penalty. Sure, they start off with just the basic fireball, but that still removes a unique advantage that we benefit a lot from. We don't want them diversifying more.
- Sell original steam engine: The original steam engine is useless in all practical scenarios. It requires serious time and effort to get to a practical condition - time and effort that would be better spent elsewhere. Even after our work on it, it's still practically useless. It's cool, novel, and flashy for the trader, but useless for Moskurg unless they waste a ton of time on it, giving us an advantage.
EDIT: Further note - We did get good rolls. In addition to all my previous points based purely on the results, I doubt that something with rolls like what we got would actually hurt us if deployed. You're being paranoid.
(Also forgot to add Azzuro to do not deploy arrows - I fixed that)
Post by: andrea on April 27, 2017, 01:41:47 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 27, 2017, 01:46:24 am
Design: Steam Engine [2-2, 1-2+1, 6-2]
...
It first took a minor tweak of our existing Flame Wall spell to generate a more manageable sized flame. It still requires the attention of a mage to be maintained, but so long as they aren't distracted for more than a few seconds it wont go out.
It's not like we embedded a spell into the steam engine. It takes a mage to maintain it by casting the spell. And selling an original steam engine is exactly what it sounds like - we're selling them an obsolete steam engine not used anymore based on the very first design, and we are not selling them the design and spells necessary to maintain it.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 01:47:12 am
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Honestly, you just seem overly pessimistic about it and are looking for reasons to hate them.
Honestly, you seem like you're ignoring what their description actually says in favor of your own beliefs.
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The advantage here isn't that they're running from the bombs, but that they'll encounter ones that weren't initial hits while running, helping us in the retreat phase.
Given that the weapon is useless against armored targets on non-direct hits, this will do nothing.
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and minor lacerations for unarmored bystanders. Unfortunately, the relatively low stopping power of a crystal shard means they wont be able to penetrate shields and armor once the arrow head explodes
Remember, all Moskurgians are armored.
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Also, if I recall correctly, our anti-magic fields aren't particularly huge. You're radically underestimating our anti-mage units: They're smart enough that they won't stand right next to apprentices while they cast spells
The description explicitedly says that our forces have to be very far way from our magical forces. That directly implies they will no longer use magic.
There is nothing to back up your belief that the Anti-magic charms will prevent detonations. In fact, the fact that we have to separate forces makes clear that they don't.
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A minor problem we've noticed; the arrow head doesn't discern between friendly magic and enemy magic. The entire quiver will explode suddenly and violently in the presence of any magic, including our own. As a precaution, our Mage Hunters will be kept as far away from our magical forces as possible.
Remember, both work by absorbing magic. If the explosive arrow absorbs any, it will explode. The Charms do not appear capable of negating magic fast enough.
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And now the actions. I retroactively added mine and Andrea's support for deploying, but even if it turns out to be a tie shouldn't deployment be the default action?
Retroactively adding votes for your proposal, but not adding those against it is kind of dishonest.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 27, 2017, 01:49:50 am
Weak spots exist. There's not a single Moskurg soldier without weak spots. DOUBLEEDIT: But this isn't the point.
Anti-magic charms help, but don't cover everything, hence the separation. It's only logical to assume they do because they work off the exact same principle of the anti-magic bombs and absorb magic. No magic = no anti-magic bombs exploding. It's the fact that our magical forces aren't equipped with charms is the problem.
EDIT: Actually, let me reinforce my point.
Our soldiers are covered in plate mail. The bombs give minor lacerations to unarmored, and cancel magic. In the rare scenario of one of our mages walking over an undetonated anti-magic bomb while casting a spell, the mage may get superficial injuries. All of our mundane forces are utterly unaffected by the magic bombs. The main point of magic bombs is the fact that the explosion and related things is in addition to being shot at an enemy mage.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 01:55:05 am
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Weak spots exist. There's not a single Moskurg soldier without weak spots
Even against unarmored targets, it only causes minor lacerations. When your weapon is as dangerous as a bush of roses, it's useless.
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It's only logical to assume they do because they work off the exact same principle of the anti-magic bombs and absorb magic. No magic = no anti-magic bombs exploding.
Both work by absorbing magic. One charm neutralizes it, the other explodes. There's no reason to assume that the anti-magic charm would absorb fast enough to prevent explosion. Likely, both will absorb magic at the same rate and range, leading to an explosion.
Charms were explicitedly mentioned in the design. If they prevented explosions, they would have been used.
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It's the fact that our magical forces aren't equipped with charms is the problem.
Yes, the issue is that our mages cast magic. Considering magic is much more powerfull than our arrows, I think we should ditch the arrows and keep magic.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 27, 2017, 02:00:34 am
Design: Antimagic Bombs [6, 4, 5]
Though our earlier incidents with exploding anti-magic charms was done with diamonds, it doesn't take much to modify our new quartz charms to also explode. It's even easier to do, in fact, thanks to the lower quality of the material. Once we have the spellwork down it's a simple matter of enchanting quartz crystals cut into the shapes of arrowheads to fashion our first anti-magic arrow.
As an extra bonus, we've managed to specify the crystal to reach peak temperature before shattering violently; the shrapnel does most of the damage to soft, unarmored tissue, but the super-heated crystal shards can start fires if they land in dry grass or soft fabrics.
Hitting a mage with an arrow will likely result in death for the target and minor lacerations for unarmored bystanders. Unfortunately, the relatively low stopping power of a crystal shard means they wont be able to penetrate shields and armor once the arrow head explodes, but we've noted that if it explodes once shot into a wooden shield it will punch a small hole through it. Sustained fire against shielded enemy mages will slowly reduce their cover so long as they cast.
The arrow only results in major injuries/death if a mage is shot with it. As it happens, we're not shooting our own mages with anti-magic bombs. Our problem is the shielded mages. This arrow helps significantly towards countering it. That is the point of this arrow. Not the minor lacerations to bystanders.
Due to the complexity of crafting anti-magic charms and fashioning them into perfectly weighted arrows, they are Expensive and will be given exclusively to our Mage-Hunter squads.
A minor problem we've noticed; the arrow head doesn't discern between friendly magic and enemy magic. The entire quiver will explode suddenly and violently in the presence of any magic, including our own. As a precaution, our Mage Hunters will be kept as far away from our magical forces as possible. Expensive.
As long as our anti-mage units with the anti-magic bombs are kept away from magic-users, they'll be fine. Even if there are apprentices working with anti-mages, they don't all have to be together with the anti-magic bomb users and again, our anti-mage units aren't stupid. They know that anti-magic bomb + magic = bad. Even in the EXTREMELY UNLIKELY case of a quiver exploding, it shouldn't be lethal at all with full plate even with the full quiver.
Though I do agree that the anti-mage arrows are disappointing given the rolls, but they work and help us counter the enemy shields.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 27, 2017, 02:09:52 am
Post by: andrea on April 27, 2017, 02:11:35 am
We should design new ships, especially if we conquer the jungle.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 02:15:19 am
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Our soldiers are covered in plate mail. The bombs give minor lacerations to unarmored, and cancel magi
Read the actual description.
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Hitting a mage with an arrow will likely result in death for the target
The minor lacerations are for bystanders, for indirect hits. A whole quiver exploding on your back will do more, probably kill you. Besides, IIRC, our mage killers are infiltration units, they probably won't use full plate. Not every soldier uses the armor.
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In the rare scenario of one of our mages walking over an undetonated anti-magic bomb while casting a spell, the mage may get superficial injuries
Strawman. My worry is about this little fact, not the risk of an arrow lying around.
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The entire quiver will explode suddenly and violently in the presence of any magic, including our own
Also, funny how you at one point argue that arrows will stop the Moskurgian retreat, and now argue they'll be harmless
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The arrow only results in major injuries/death if a mage is shot with it. As it happens, we're not shooting our own mages with anti-magic bombs. Our problem is the shielded mages. This arrow helps significantly towards countering it. That is the point of this arrow. Not the minor lacerations to bystanders
Demonstrably false. The arrows explode on any kind of magic, not just hitting mages. Hitting a msge was an example, not the only situation where the arrow explodes.
The arrows won't help. All our mages can now cast massive fireballs, which do far more.
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s long as our anti-mage units with the anti-magic bombs are kept away from magic-users, they'll be fine
It's hard to keep away from magic users when you're hunting them. The arrows are a massive liability thst's going to get our forces killed.
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Even in the EXTREMELY UNLIKELY case of a quiver exploding, it shouldn't be lethal at all with full plate even with the full quiver.
The situstion is by no means extremely unlikely. It'll happen often, if not near constantly.
Moskurgian casts wind spell => Arrows exlode
Moskurgian cast aim assist => Arrows explode
Moskurgian cast lightning bold => Arrows explode
And counting on plate to protect our forces is not going to work. The GM explicitedly said it was a terrifying explosion. Do you really believe that he means "a bit of fireworks that wont hurt your troops".
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 27, 2017, 02:29:38 am
You are massively overestimating the range of the anti-magic charms and bombs, by the way. Our anti-mage units aren't melee-based - they use ranged. Hence the anti-magic bomb arrows.
The design post for the anti-magic bombs explicitly says they'll help. I even bolded that part in my last post. Feel free to check again.
And if you want to say "well we have better fireballs!", that's not everything. Just because we have bigger fireballs doesn't magically delete every enemy mage - they're still going to be a problem that recently made themselves much tougher to kill by our anti-mage unit. Without the anti-magic bombs, which again explicitly state that they're effective against the shields, our anti-mage units won't be so much anti-mage anymore.
Hitting a mage with an arrow causes death because they get shot by an arrow, which then explodes. The getting shot thing is kind of the main contributor here. The explosion isn't the primary reason at all behind the major injuries of shot mages. Even if they decide to spend a design and a revision upgrading their wind spells, they won't be able to magically make our arrows reverse course and return to sender. Not a problem.
And remember the thing about our anti-magic charms doing things such as not stopping fireballs after they've been created? Most effects of spells aren't explicitly magical by themselves - it's the conjuration of the effects that's magical, and the conjuration happens over where the conjuring mages are.
So quiver explosion only happens if:
A.) There is magic cast very close to the quiver-holder. This will not happen because our anti-mage units are not idiots. Again, they're ranged. They aren't at the front lines and don't have to be packed with the apprentices. The range of the anti-magic charms means that apprentices can still be very close if needed, too!
B.) There is a spell directly casted on the quiver-holder. Not a notable issue.
And "violent" =/= "lethal".
Oh, and regarding your point about anti-mage units and armor:
Anti-Mages: Mage hunters equipped with longbows, anti-magic charms, and the best armor we can give them. Excel at sniping enemy mages.
Post by: Andres on April 27, 2017, 02:35:10 am
We cannot sell the original steam engine. Part of the problem with it was that it was too heavy for a ship to carry. It is also ugly, useless, and takes up a lot of storage space.
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3 Sell Wand of Fireballs: Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Andrea
1 Seize ship: Azzuro
2 Sell crate of crystal weapons: Roboson, 10ebbor10
1 Sell steam engine: FallacyofUrist
3 Sell original steam engine: Chiefwaffles, stabbymcstabstab, Tyrant Leviathan
2 Do not deploy anti-magic arrows : 10ebbor10, Azzuro
2 Deploy anti-magic arrows: Chiefwaffles, Andrea
1 Sell crate of crystal weapons and Wand of Fireballs: Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 27, 2017, 02:43:42 am
Perhaps you could wait until the combat phase is over and they've been used in field rather than preemtively declaring them useless. I imagine a detailed combat report would give you a more accurate idea of their performance.
Post by: Andres on April 27, 2017, 02:49:44 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 27, 2017, 02:51:09 am
@Andres sell action post: I mean, I'd guess that it could be a problem, but the weight-thing seems superficial - it's not really a reasonable block to selling it. Worst case scenario, evicted says we can't sell it and we go onto the next most-supported thing. Same for storage space.
As for "useless", I disagree in terms of for the expense as a working demonstration of it could wow the trader which is exactly what we want to do. The steam engine is unique - no doubt Moskurg is giving them some generic magic spells or obsolete wands as well, but they don't have the steam engine. And if they discover this one, which is unlikely, then worst case scenario is like I said, they have to waste tons of time getting it working - way more than us considering they don't have the fire spells to work it in the first place.
pls support sell original engine 2017
not a mistake
i guarantee
Post by: Andres on April 27, 2017, 02:57:40 am
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3 Sell Wand of Fireballs: Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Andrea
1 Seize ship: Azzuro
2 Sell crate of crystal weapons: Roboson, 10ebbor10
1 Sell steam engine: FallacyofUrist
3 Sell original steam engine: Chiefwaffles, stabbymcstabstab, Tyrant Leviathan
2 Do not deploy anti-magic arrows : 10ebbor10, Azzuro
2 Deploy anti-magic arrows: Chiefwaffles, Andrea
1 Sell crate of crystal weapons, original steam engine, and Wand of Fireballs: Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Roboson on April 27, 2017, 03:04:06 am
I am convinced.Quote3 Sell Wand of Fireballs: Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Andrea
1 Seize ship: Azzuro
1 Sell crate of crystal weapons: , 10ebbor10
1 Sell steam engine: FallacyofUrist
4 Sell original steam engine: Chiefwaffles, stabbymcstabstab, Tyrant Leviathan, roboson
2 Do not deploy anti-magic arrows : 10ebbor10, Azzuro
3 Deploy anti-magic arrows: Chiefwaffles, Andrea, roboson
1 Sell crate of crystal weapons, original steam engine, and Wand of Fireballs: Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Changing my vote to original engine.
Post by: RAM on April 27, 2017, 03:09:40 am
Charms were explicitedly mentioned in the design. If they prevented explosions, they would have been used.
Antimagic bombs
An oversized arrowhead made of quartz, composed of many facets of miniaturised antimagic crystal. It contains a core of explosive antimagic charm with spines extending outwards to draw the initial magic to itself. These need to be stored with a proper antimagic charm as they will explode after relatively little contact with active magic. The effect is that should they strike a hard surface, they will tend to scatter antimagic facets around the area. Should they strike a soft surface, they will explode relatively soon due to contact with ambient magic and scatter antimagic facets around the area. This will consume the magic in a large(compared to the charm's coverage) area making conventional spellcraft impossible for a short time before the tiny crystals become overloaded and burst into flame, creating an incendiary hazard. forcing enemy wizards to relocate during a heated battle can only be of benefit.
The bombs themselves are a very simple act of putting an antimagic charm on an arrow. The actual magic development here, of course, is the magically-stimulated growth of quartz into specific forms. Many mathemagicians died(Well, missed sleep and were called nerds) to bring us these plans.
Design: Antimagic Bombs [6, 4, 5]Things not mentioned:
Though our earlier incidents with exploding anti-magic charms was done with diamonds, it doesn't take much to modify our new quartz charms to also explode. It's even easier to do, in fact, thanks to the lower quality of the material. Once we have the spellwork down it's a simple matter of enchanting quartz crystals cut into the shapes of arrowheads to fashion our first anti-magic arrow.
As an extra bonus, we've managed to specify the crystal to reach peak temperature before shattering violently; the shrapnel does most of the damage to soft, unarmored tissue, but the super-heated crystal shards can start fires if they land in dry grass or soft fabrics.
Hitting a mage with an arrow will likely result in death for the target and minor lacerations for unarmored bystanders. Unfortunately, the relatively low stopping power of a crystal shard means they wont be able to penetrate shields and armor once the arrow head explodes, but we've noted that if it explodes once shot into a wooden shield it will punch a small hole through it. Sustained fire against shielded enemy mages will slowly reduce their cover so long as they cast.
Due to the complexity of crafting anti-magic charms and fashioning them into perfectly weighted arrows, they are Expensive and will be given exclusively to our Mage-Hunter squads.
A minor problem we've noticed; the arrow head doesn't discern between friendly magic and enemy magic. The entire quiver will explode suddenly and violently in the presence of any magic, including our own. As a precaution, our Mage Hunters will be kept as far away from our magical forces as possible. Expensive.
many facets of miniaturised antimagic crystal = the shrapnel does most of the damage to soft, unarmored tissue
Mundane shrapnel, no largish field of short-lived antimagic charms. I was expecting maybe a half-dozen metres, enough that the mage couldn't cast without moving or burning their surroundings while having a couple of spells fail. They are small, so their individual capacity would be low while the full charms have an almost limitless capacity but those only effectively cover one person, but they spread out. Duration lost to increase area.
need to be stored with a proper antimagic charm = Mage Hunters will be kept as far away from our magical forces as possible
They use the same technology, an Antimagic Charm should affect a larger radius than the core charm which should have a larger radius than the shrapnel charms. An antimagic charm really ought to absorb all the magic before it can reach the bombs. But results could vary...
strike a hard surface, they will tend to scatter antimagic facets = relatively low stopping power of a crystal shard means they wont be able to penetrate shields and armor once the arrow head explodes
Nor before either by my estimation. I mean, it is quartz! Fat chunky quartz with spikes out the sides at that, no bodkin to be seen... They were never meant to affect armour, only magic.
strike a soft surface, they will explode relatively soon = reach peak temperature before shattering violently
Wow, bonus, nice!
explode relatively soon due to contact with ambient magic and scatter antimagic facets around the area = into a wooden shield it will punch a small hole
Oh, well, holes are nice.
magically-stimulated growth of quartz into specific forms = crafting anti-magic charms and fashioning them into perfectly weighted arrows
I guess I was being too ambitious? I mean, we just barely have enough charms for our thanes or something and shooting them seems expensive. I guess I should have presented the quartz growing as a design to make existing items cheaper and the arrows as a revision?
need to be stored with a proper antimagic charm = A minor problem we've noticed; the arrow head doesn't discern between friendly magic and enemy magic
It is a good thing that we noticed that yes, the arrows will, indeed, blow up in the presence of magic. A good thing then that we have something that absorbs magic.
There is a lot of variation from the suggestion to the outcome. I am not really reading too much into anything that is not specifically mentioned. I assume that antimagic charms simply are not part of our hunters' current equipment so it wasn't factored in. We reposition the charms to our elitiest of the elite archers and rely upon them to keep the mind-0readers at bay.
I am optimistic that an antimagic charm which absorbs all the magic around a person will protect that person from magic that would cause the one or two bombs amongst the arrows in their quiver to explode. Obviously the enemy can do the same thing, but having to stop and antimagic the bomb in your face, then get someone to ferry it away, and likely clean up all the little ones scattered around the place, is, well, it is easier to just pick up your shield and walk away, meanwhile there are a bunch of people waiting to shoot you reposition, or, indeed, you can't stop fireballs like this so... Well, unless our charms stop fireballs, but, ehh, I figure those are like conjuration, magic enough to be unmade by the no-fun-zone the keggers use but mundane enough to work within the area of our charms so long as it is not actually being conjured within one. But still, an ordinary fireball should make the charms go boom, and the mage is busy keeping the charms calm so having them burst from cancelling one of our fireballs is still them at a disadvantage.
Quote
3 Sell Wand of Fireballs: Azzuro, 10ebbor10, AndreaFine, I'll throw my hat in for seizing and selling stuff. Plunder to Arstozkings!
1 Seize ship: Azzuro, RAM
2 Sell crate of crystal weapons: 10ebbor10, RAM
1 Sell steam engine: FallacyofUrist
5 Sell original steam engine: Chiefwaffles, stabbymcstabstab, Tyrant Leviathan, roboson, RAM
2(-3=-1) Do not deploy anti-magic arrows : 10ebbor10, Azzuro
3(-2=1) Deploy anti-magic arrows: Chiefwaffles, Andrea,RAM
1 Sell crate of crystal weapons, original steam engine, and Wand of Fireballs: Andres
1 Use channelled fog where it is likely to be hit by antimagic. Inform us of the results. shamelssRAM
1 Use crystal weapons which are protected by antimagic: put some caltrops and an antimagic charm down someone's pants and put a crystal axe in one hand and a gem-powered crystal axe in the other then stick them in front of a firewall protecting our archers then wait for it to go poof and check what survived. shamelessRAM
1 Give antimagic charms to our elite anti-wizard guard or hunters or whatever they are now. Especially the ones who are carrying bombs. shamelessRAM
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 03:51:35 am
Don't worry too much about it, evictedSaint. It's traditional for players to get salty whenever a design is anything less than a working wanderwaffe. It's also traditional to get salty when a design is a working wanderwaffe, except the salt comes from the opposite team. For instance, when Moskurg got their magic recoilless rifle in Arms Race. :P
There's a difference between Wunderwaffe and being actually usefull. I'm asking for the latter, not the former.
Our current arrow is :
- Dangerous to ourselves
- Severely troubled by shields
- Severely troubled by armor
- Appears to have no actual magic disrupting abilities
- Capable of causing fire only in optimal situations
Basically, it seems to be a shitty fireball that explodes in your own face more often than not.
Quote
There is a lot of variation from the suggestion to the outcome. I am not really reading too much into anything that is not specifically mentioned. I assume that antimagic charms simply are not part of our hunters' current equipment so it wasn't factored in. We reposition the charms to our elitiest of the elite archers and rely upon them to keep the mind-0readers at bay.
Our hunters are equipped with charms. If charms protected, it woukd have been mentioned.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 27, 2017, 04:01:50 am
Also, I somehow just realized, but if we get the expense credit, we should almost definitely use it on anti-magic charms. It really doesn't even seem like a question.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 04:03:43 am
And sure, they can become awesome in the battle report, but that would mean the description was bad.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 04:37:15 am
Let's go to another, more important point.
The Steam engine you are proposing to sell does not fit on boats
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 27, 2017, 06:11:41 am
Post by: Azzuro on April 27, 2017, 07:37:44 am
Quote from: Worse than a Dutch ballot
3 Sell Wand of Fireballs: Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Andrea
1 Seize ship: RAM
2 Sell crate of crystal weapons: 10ebbor10, RAM
1 Sell steam engine: FallacyofUrist
5 Sell original steam engine: Chiefwaffles, stabbymcstabstab, Tyrant Leviathan, roboson, RAM
1(-3=-2) Do not deploy anti-magic arrows : 10ebbor10
4(-2=2) Deploy anti-magic arrows: Chiefwaffles, Andrea,RAM, Azzuro
1 Sell crate of crystal weapons, original steam engine, and Wand of Fireballs: Andres
1 Use channelled fog where it is likely to be hit by antimagic. Inform us of the results. shamelssRAM
1 Use crystal weapons which are protected by antimagic: put some caltrops and an antimagic charm down someone's pants and put a crystal axe in one hand and a gem-powered crystal axe in the other then stick them in front of a firewall protecting our archers then wait for it to go poof and check what survived. shamelessRAM
1 Give antimagic charms to our elite anti-wizard guard or hunters or whatever they are now. Especially the ones who are carrying bombs. shamelessRAM
Changes: I never voted to seize the ship, don't know who put my name up there. Changing my vote to deploying the antimagic arrows, instead of against.
Seizing the ship sounds risky, as I think it's high chance of getting an Expense Credit vs low chance of getting two. As we aren't too pressed, I think we should play it safe and attempt to trade with the guy. And yeah, about the arrows, since we have them, we need to deploy them to better gather information on how it performs in the field, which would presumably help us in deciding to how best revise it.
To sum up the whole arrows argument, you guys are devolving into separate headcanons and arguing gets nowhere. Should ask the GM, evictedSaint:
-are our Mage Hunters currently equipped with Antimagic Charms (as of the latest combat report)?
-do our Mage Hunters use magic in their fights or have magic-users within their ranks?
And regarding the trader, I'm still on team Sell the Wand. The revision for PSFs basically said the Wand is Obsolete with a capital O - we haven't used it in nearly a decade! If sold on to Moskurg, it's the least harmful, as there's only one (National Effort-cost) and they already have a wand they're using anyway. They need to spend four design phases and as many revisions to get the use of fireballs widespread among their forces as we have, and that's even more time for us to double down on our specialisations. Not to mention, the trade is specifically looking for magical artifacts that are flashy, of which the Fireball Wand is definitely the most attention-grabbing. The original steam engine isn't all that impressive - just water+fire=steam and pushing a cylinder around in a way that's nearly impossible to get useful work from. (meta) We only think it's impressive because we live a world in the aftermath of the revolution that steam power wrought. Crystal weapons do have the 'shiny!' factor, but they're just sharper and lighter versions of ordinary weapons, and if you were a foreigner who didn't know better they could appear to not be magical at all, just made of strong glass.
I'm against selling the crystal weapons or the first steam engine because they'll give a clear advantage to Moskurg. The crystal weapons can be used against our own forces, though I don't know if they're armour-piercing. The steam engine isn't all that magical - the only magic is the modified firewall spell, which we managed to do in real life without the aid of magic, so I wouldn't count on Moskurg not being able to use it. Steam power will revolutionise the battle for the waves, let's not give them the slightest hint that we have it, or they'll start designing ways to counter it before we even deploy it.
Although they may already be doing so, going by ATHATH's post in the main thread.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 07:56:46 am
Do anti-magic charms prevent arrow detonation
Post by: evictedSaint on April 27, 2017, 12:05:11 pm
While neither side developed any new defensive tools to help against skirmishes, this year saw Arstotzka develop a frightening new weapon. Arstotzkan soldiers shed their noisy armor to creep close in the night, targeting Moskurg mages. They fire only a single salvo before retreating, but when Moskurg mages scramble to use magic to defend themselves the spent arrows suddenly - and violently - explode. Being unarmored in the middle of the night means the resulting shrapnel leaves lacerations in everyone nearby. Several mages are blinded, and in the confusion the Arstotzkan raiders slip away. The shards are super-heated and cause minor fires where they land, all of which their men scramble to put out. This happens once more before their mages learn not to cast whenever these raiders attack, as the arrow explosives trigger on contact with magic. We've managed to incapacitate a few of their mages before the main combat, but they will likely learn not to cast during these engagements.
Both sides do massive damage during nightly raids, with Arstotzka coming out slightly ahead.
The melees have likewise increased in lethality. Before the combat even begins a two meter long spear falls out of the sky, impaling one of our commanders through his breastplate. As our men scramble for cover more fall from above, hitting with the same uncanny accuracy of Moskurg archers. We lose a significant number of mages and commanders before the battle even begins, but after a while the spears taper off and stop all together.
At medium range, however, the battle turns in our favor. Moskurg arrows are still utterly useless against Arstotzkan plate and gambeson, but our arrows and newer fireballs hit with devestating effect. It's as if every one of our mages was equipped with our original fireball spell, and each blast wipes out squads at a time. We have fewer mages here due to the earlier sniping, but they're still working to devestating effect. Their mages can't even cast to try and stop us as our Anti-Mage snipers are continuing to use their explosive arrows. They blast small holes in Moskurg barricades, and their mages are forced to stop casting and hunker down lest their cover be blown to shreds.
Things grow more even in pitched melee, however - Moskurg has rolled out a new halberd, one which is effective at punching through our plate armor. A single enemy soldier is obviously inferior to an Arstotzkan soldier, but their larger numbers would turn the tide in their favor were it not for our remaining mages making use of flame walls to channel their troops into killing zones. This, combined with how they can only use their lightning half the year, means we come out on top. Considering how they were on the back foot last year, the cowardly Moskurgs are ultimately forced to retreat and we claim the last section of jungle from the enemy.
Our Theatre Commander is worried. The spears that killed our mages and commanders are a significant problem, even if we can make up for it with overwhelming firepower. The dense undergrowth has died enough that Moskurg could start marching in formation next year if they wanted to. The fireballs are nice, but he worries about diversifying our weapons. What if Moskurg develops something that could counter our fireballs? He points out that if the antimagic bomb arrows were cheaper, our entire archer force could use them. Also, why do they need to require magic to activate? Why not give them a timer instead?
Arstotzka gains the jungle. If they hold it next year, they may exploit it for resources.
Our fireballs prove to be less effective on the sea. Moskurg stays at a distance, hitting our ships with rocks cast from a surprising distance away. We chase them, but our fireballs don't have the same range.
We lose a few ships before Moskurg retreats, but it's not quite enough to force us to give up a section of coastline. Another year like this and we'll be forced to give up ground.
The Theatre Commander is frustrated with our inability to catch Moskurg. Either get the steam engine working or make the fireballs longer ranged - it's been so long since he's sunk a Moskurg ship.
Neither side makes coastal gains in the Western Sea.
Expense Credit: As it turns out, T’ung-K’ao has a knack for magic, but he's no Myark. Try as he might, he fails to get the Wand of Fireballs to work, much to his frustration. He likewise passes over the steam engine, completely uninterested in its mundane nature. He does seem interested in the crate of Crystal Axes, picking one up and giving it an experimental swing. He accidentally hacks a chunk out of the railing of his ship and his eyes gleam with child-like wonder. He manages to convey that he is interested in purchasing the crate, unless there's something more fantastic you'd like to show him. Sell the Crystal Axes, or something else?
It is 927, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 927 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Post by: evictedSaint on April 27, 2017, 12:06:22 pm
Do anti-magic charms prevent arrow detonation
You know what? No, they don't detonate in anti-magic fields. Just remember, you asked for this.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 27, 2017, 12:34:41 pm
Any way theybe developed a seige engine from the looks of it, so we should probably do the same. Think about it we got very high pressure steam engines and a vast supply of metal and possible wood.
Post by: andrea on April 27, 2017, 12:37:50 pm
I am extremely concerned about sky lances however, i can't see a way to protect from them besides dispelling(assuming conjured, althoughh could be ballista) or tanks.
@stabby yes, a steam cannon. I proposed it before. We can even do some nice tricks with ammo, with the magitech we have.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 27, 2017, 12:42:55 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 12:49:40 pm
Do anti-magic charms prevent arrow detonationYou know what? No, they don't detonate in anti-magic fields. Just remember, you asked for this.
Nah, my assumption was that they did, the other guys argued that it shoukdn't.
Any way theybe developed a seige engine from the looks of it, so we should probably do the same. Think about it we got very high pressure steam engines and a vast supply of metal and possible wood.
No no no no.
Let's not start another long term project before we finished the current one.
Post by: andrea on April 27, 2017, 12:52:54 pm
Why are boulders and rocks an hint of ballista? I don't remember them raining on us?
I can't write more proposals for now, but i would vote for a steam ship or a steam tank.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 01:02:51 pm
Anyway, I'm pretty certain the enemy siege weapon is what it appears to be, a siege weapon. Likely, they've somehow managed to upgrade their True Strike spell so that it can actually reliable target specific people, as the original spell certainly couldn't.
Anyway, for my design
Obscuring Mists : A mist spell, more powerful and larger than any previous mists spells. It can cover an entire battlefield, and will prevent any attempt from enemies beyond to see or aim at those within, even by magical means.
Tl'dr : We're going into open country soon enough, we need something to stay at closer range. Obscuring mists gives us that, and as a bonus prevents the enemy from sniping our mages or commanders. It should help at Sea too, the extended range of the obscuring mist spell allows us to engulf both the enemy and friendly fleet, ensuring that they can not run away upon seeing us, until it's too late.
steam cannon inspired by the early accidents with steam engines, this cannon uses a boiler to build up great pressure, which is then released in a metal tube where it propels a projectile at great distance. The projectile can be a simple rock or metal balls or barrels filled with nails, pebbles and other small hard objects ( lets call this second shot 'canister'). It has wheels so that our sturdy horses can move them on the battlefield.
Why are boulders and rocks an hint of ballista? I don't remember them raining on us?
I can't write more proposals for now, but i would vote for a steam ship or a steam tank.
All the -1's ones. Literally, all of them.
Our steam engines are not even functional, and you want to turn into an even less functional weapon. Honestly, the only thing your steam cannon is going to be good for is if plundering Moskurgians accidentally injure themselves on it's remains.
Quote
1 Obscuring Mists 10ebbor10
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 27, 2017, 01:06:27 pm
Why are boulders and rocks an hint of ballista? I don't remember them raining on us?If I remember right the Romans used stone balls loaded into ballista at sea where a long bolt would be less useful.
Edit: and they might not be using the stone on land do to range? Accuracy?
Post by: andrea on April 27, 2017, 01:11:15 pm
While i agree it probably is not the right time for a cannon, i think it would be rather easier than an actually functional engine, although with its unique challenges.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 27, 2017, 01:15:54 pm
'Nother edit: honestly I've been so sleep deprived due to finals and play enough Rome 2 lately and I was doubting myself when I saw your poat
Post by: Roboson on April 27, 2017, 01:18:27 pm
Using our knowledge of mathemagics and firery explosions, we design an explosive arrow that doesn't rely on the magic exposure trigger. In fact, it's not even effected by the presence of magic. Instead, they explode several seconds after hitting a target. This allows us to use the arrows against their regular forces in addition to their mages.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 01:32:44 pm
Timed Bomb Arrows
Using our knowledge of mathemagics and firery explosions, we design an explosive arrow that doesn't rely on the magic exposure trigger. In fact, it's not even effected by the presence of magic. Instead, they explode several seconds after hitting a target. This allows us to use the arrows against their regular forces in addition to their mages.
Why not just use fireballs instead, which :
A) Can be thrown into anti-magic fields
B) Can be thrown from further away
C) Are far more destructive
D) Don't have friendly fire
Post by: Roboson on April 27, 2017, 01:48:08 pm
Timed Bomb Arrows
Using our knowledge of mathemagics and firery explosions, we design an explosive arrow that doesn't rely on the magic exposure trigger. In fact, it's not even effected by the presence of magic. Instead, they explode several seconds after hitting a target. This allows us to use the arrows against their regular forces in addition to their mages.
Why not just use fireballs instead, which :
A) Can be thrown into anti-magic fields
B) Can be thrown from further away
C) Are far more destructive
D) Don't have friendly fire
Because our longbowmen can't use fireballs.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 01:54:50 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 27, 2017, 01:55:36 pm
The idea is to make a wide variety of hard to dispel crystal weapons then reform our tactics to counter their cavalry rushes.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 01:56:29 pm
Variable Crystal Weapons: A more stable version of existing crystal designed to be harder to dispel once summoned and available in multiple formulas to adapt to changing circumstances. To start out a medium shield, the existing halberd and lances, arrows and a long anti cavalry spear.
The idea is to make a wide variety of hard to dispel crystal weapons then reform our tactics to counter their cavalry rushes.
Trying to fit 6 design actions into 1 action is going to fail spectacularly.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 27, 2017, 01:57:12 pm
The arrows are generated by magecraft. Those mages who generated them can be of far more use on the front than making arrows.
Alternatively, we keep our mages away from the front lines making enchanted weapons and arrows as effective as the fire balls but wielded by
Post by: Roboson on April 27, 2017, 01:58:54 pm
The arrows are generated by magecraft. Those mages who generated them can be of far more use on the front than making arrows.
Wrong. We've always had mages making weapons out of combat. We spent many turns crafting crystal weapons between fights. This is the same thing, and won't cost us battlefield mages. If it did, we wouldn't have had mages last combat phase.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 02:00:54 pm
The arrows are generated by magecraft. Those mages who generated them can be of far more use on the front than making arrows.
Wrong. We've always had mages making weapons out of combat. We spent many turns crafting crystal weapons between fights. This is the same thing, and won't cost us battlefield mages. If it did, we wouldn't have had mages last combat phase.
Just because it doesn't cost us all our battlefield mages doesn't mean it won't use some of them.
Anyway, the timed bomb idea is stupid. I know the GM suggested it, but it's still stupid.
The bombs rely on the absorption of magic to power the weapon, without magic energy absorption, there can be no explosion.
It's completely illogical to make them time based, because without a source for the energy of the explosion, the bomb can not go off.
Besides: If we wanted to use them against common enemies, we can simply cast a mist spell upon the enemy. It's a very cheap spell, and it will reliably trigger all the explosives.
Timed bombs solves an entirely avoidable issue on a rather useless weapon.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 27, 2017, 02:03:19 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 27, 2017, 02:03:32 pm
The arrows are generated by magecraft. Those mages who generated them can be of far more use on the front than making arrows.
Wrong. We've always had mages making weapons out of combat. We spent many turns crafting crystal weapons between fights. This is the same thing, and won't cost us battlefield mages. If it did, we wouldn't have had mages last combat phase.
Just because it doesn't cost us all our battlefield mages doesn't mean it won't use some of them.
It doesn't. If it reduced the number of mages we had on the battlefield, we would have been alerted to that and we definitely wouldn't have won in the jungle last turn if all our mages were sitting around fletching arrows while their comrades were being stabbed to death.
Post by: Roboson on April 27, 2017, 02:05:04 pm
Anyway, the timed bomb idea is stupid. I know the GM suggested it, but it's still stupid.
The bombs rely on the absorption of magic to power the weapon, without magic energy absorption, there can be no explosion.
Our current bombs do, but not the one's I proposed.
Edit:
Anyway, the timed bomb idea is stupid. I know the GM suggested it, but it's still stupid.
The bombs rely on the absorption of magic to power the weapon, without magic energy absorption, there can be no explosion.
Our current bombs do, but not the one's I proposed.
Post by: Roboson on April 27, 2017, 02:05:23 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 27, 2017, 02:10:59 pm
And how about this change:
Variable Crystal Weapons: A more stable version of existing crystal designed to be harder to dispel once summoned by tying it to a specially made gem amulet and available in multiple formulas to adapt to changing circumstances. It uses a single type of base gem amulet to create the weapon which many of our soldiers can be given. To start, have it able to summon the existing halberd and lances.
Every soldier gets a weapon gem amulet that mages can then summon weapons to, eventually making many different types.
Earth Elemental Control - Construction - Allows us to make hardened fortifications magically, like the labor of hundreds of workers very quickly. Once created, the structures are mundane earth and stone, having been built using local materials.
Make the open plains not so open any more, operating from under the ground rather then the sky.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 02:15:52 pm
Our current bombs do, but not the one's I proposed.
Okay then, let's look at the proposal on it's own merits.
1) Can it be countered :
- Yes, by Moskurgian shields
- Yes, by Moskurgian armor
- Yes, by ranged Moskurgian siege weaponry
- Yes, by Moskurgian Wind Spells
- Yes, by Moskurgian Anti-magic wands
- Yes, by Moskurgian "lucky strike" archers.
2) What will it accomplish :
- Negate some Moskurgian Armor
- Negate some Moskurgian shields
3) Can those be accomplished easier
- Yes, by all means.
Designing the Moskurgian arrows plays straight into their strength
Especially after the GM said this.
Quote
You know what? No, they don't detonate in anti-magic fields. Just remember, you asked for this.
This is, quite clearly, a threat. A threat, which will likely mean that next turn the Moskurgians could have deployed an anti-magic field that renders the arrows useless.
Arrows combine all our weaknesses
- They have to fly through the air, so they can be intercept by Moskurgian wind spells
- They rely on Magic, so they can be interrupted by anti-magic
- They have trouble penetrating armor, so the Moskurgian armor or shields can render them useless.
Quote
Fireball arrows - Arrows that can be shot by normal archers which detonate in a fireball effect when they hit. Maybe use cheap gems to hold magic and our knowledge of the fireball spell to enchant the arrows.
Even worse.
1) Relies on fireball spells => All eggs in one basket
2) Relies on arrows => Moskurgian wind manipulation
3) relies on magic => Moskurgian anti-magic
It doesn't. If it reduced the number of mages we had on the battlefield, we would have been alerted to that and we definitely wouldn't have won in the jungle last turn if all our mages were sitting around fletching arrows while their comrades were being stabbed to death.Only Sith deal in absolutes
Is it so hard to understand that a group of some people may not include all of them?
Even then, there's plenty of issues to be had with the design. Primarily that it is but an incremental improvement on a non-issue. Our archers have had no mentioned trouble in dealing with the enemy :
Quote
our arrows and newer fireballs hit with devastating effect
Meanwhile, you're ignoring that Moskurg is getting a terrain advantage, getting a naval advantage, getting an anti-wizard advantage, and getting an extra-long range advantage.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 27, 2017, 02:20:02 pm
Crap, I forgot to write up the duel. al-Mutriqa was wounded and requires a year to recover.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 27, 2017, 02:20:21 pm
What about using the design phase to make the steam engines actually work to move boats fast and the revision phase to add obscuring mists to the tower of frost?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 02:22:20 pm
I thought our mists were totally useless so far?
They had been made useless once by the winds, but that was solved with the anchored mist.
They haven't shown up since then, but I don't know why.
Post by: Roboson on April 27, 2017, 02:35:23 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 27, 2017, 02:35:49 pm
I thought our mists were totally useless so far?
They had been made useless once by the winds, but that was solved with the anchored mist.
They haven't shown up since then, but I don't know why.
What if we make the battlefield wide mists, then make then super cold, then give our soldiers specially designed anti magic amulets to warm them up?
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 27, 2017, 02:36:32 pm
I vote we make magic crystal force fields to save our mages and commanders from the sniping. After the jungle is secured, we branch out.
Set of my designs for navy.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 02:50:19 pm
Quote
Obscuring Mists : A mist spell, more powerful and larger than any previous mists spells. It can cover an entire battlefield, and will prevent any attempt from enemies beyond to see or aim at those within, even by magical means.
1) Can it be countered :
- Not by wind, because it's anchored;
- Not by anti-magic, because Moskurgian antimagic relies on their wand wearing wizards to get close. By the time they do, the mist has served it's purpose.
- Not by magic detection, because it's designed against it.
2) What will it accomplish :
- Negate Moskurgian Siege artillery advantage
- Negate Moskurgian ranged advantage
- Negate Moskurgian Sniping
- Negate Moskurgian formation tactics
A limited, viable design based on existing designs, that should force the battles into our favor.
Post by: Roboson on April 27, 2017, 02:52:52 pm
Edit:
My proposal is and remains the same.QuoteObscuring Mists : A mist spell, more powerful and larger than any previous mists spells. It can cover an entire battlefield, and will prevent any attempt from enemies beyond to see or aim at those within, even by magical means.
1) Can it be countered :
- Not by wind, because it's anchored;
- Not by anti-magic, because Moskurgian antimagic relies on their wand wearing wizards to get close. By the time they do, the mist has served it's purpose.
- Not by magic detection, because it's designed against it.
2) What will it accomplish :
- Negate Moskurgian ranged advantage
- Negate Moskurgian Sniping
- Negate Moskurgian formation tactics
A limited, viable design based on existing designs, that should force the battles into our favor.
I'm not convinced it would protect us a whole lot, since they still have that lucky strike advantage (which is probably how they're hitting our commanders with horribly inaccurate long range siege weapons). It could help, but unless I missed something, our mist doesn't actually stop their magic.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 03:07:07 pm
Quote
If we could get mines or something like that, that would really help us hold the jungle and keep their horse archers at bay.
The only mines we have would be magic powered, and if we could use anti-magic powered mines against cavalry we would just use our crystal caltrops.
Quote
I'm not convinced it would protect us a whole lot, since they still have that lucky strike advantage (which is probably how they're hitting our commanders with horribly inaccurate long range siege weapons). It could help, but unless I missed something, our mist doesn't actually stop their magic.
The entire point is to actually design a new mist that actually counters their lucky strike.
Quote
Obscuring Mists : A mist spell, more powerful and larger than any previous mists spells. It can cover an entire battlefield, and will prevent any attempt from enemies beyond to see or aim at those within, even by magical means.
Post by: Roboson on April 27, 2017, 03:16:47 pm
QuoteI'm not convinced it would protect us a whole lot, since they still have that lucky strike advantage (which is probably how they're hitting our commanders with horribly inaccurate long range siege weapons). It could help, but unless I missed something, our mist doesn't actually stop their magic.
The entire point is to actually design a new mist that actually counters their lucky strike.QuoteObscuring Mists : A mist spell, more powerful and larger than any previous mists spells. It can cover an entire battlefield, and will prevent any attempt from enemies beyond to see or aim at those within, even by magical means.
Hmmmm, but that's two very new things. It's much much larger and selectively immune to magic. It could probably be done with a design and a revision, but so could most endeavors we choose to follow.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 27, 2017, 03:19:29 pm
Hence anti-magic bombs.
Things we can do to improve them:
- Timer
- Design an IFF ("identification friend foe") system and deploy it to anti-magic devices. Basic idea is a hidden "identifier" aspect to our spells that lets anti-magic selectively ignore it. Probably via mathematics. The advantages are clear: We would be able to use our own magic while in our anti-magic fields, and anti-magic bombs won't explode from our own magic. The system can also be used for a variety of other things in the future. So to summarize: It helps anti-magic charms AND bombs and has great possibilities to the future.
- Cheapen them. This is a revision action, not a design action though.
- Improve anti-magic bombs to leave a lingering anti-magic field upon explosion through shards of still-active anti-magic crystal crystal being left in the blast radius. This could probably do better as a revision though.
- Anti-magic mines. Self explanatory. A much more explodey non-arrow anti-magic bomb. Though I think this is best left until we enact the IFF design or a similar solution to not blow ourselves up.
The following quote only includes the suggestions from this post because I'm on my phone and don't want to bother finding every other action. If people actually used it more effectively gen this wouldn't be a problem.
Quote
0 - (Anti-magic) "IFF System":
0 - Anti-magic bomb lingering anti-magic fields:
0 - Anti-magic mines:
Post by: Light forger on April 27, 2017, 04:00:06 pm
Attunement Rods
A simple rod with a crystal on the top designed to 'attune' anti-magic charms and anti-magic arrows. All a mage needs to do is use some of his magic on the rod to attune it. The rod is able to hold multiple attunements at a time. Once this is done the rod simply needs to be brought into contact with an anti-magic gem and will cause it to no longer drain magic from anyone the rod was attuned by.
Crystal Tower Shields
Designed to be the first mass scale use of crystal creation. The gem is placed in the middle of a normal shield and at the whim of the user creates a large and sturdy but, surprising light tower shield able to completely protect the user. Once the user engages in melee combat and dispels it or enters an enemy dispelling field he is still left with a perfectly usable shield. Another useful trait the shield is fairly clear letting out field commanders observe the battlefield safely from behind it.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 04:13:03 pm
Hmmmm, but that's two very new things. It's much much larger and selectively immune to magic. It could probably be done with a design and a revision, but so could most endeavors we choose to follow.
Being bigger is hardly new, it's a simple extension of the spell. I can remove it if you insist.
Our current mist spell can be cast by apprentices, and covers 1 Squad. Since there is st least 1 apprentice per 5 squads, and apprentices can do several spells, they can cover the enemy.
On a side note, how about this idea.
Saboteurs : Supply lines are everything. These small squads of apprentices will be deployed behind enemy lines (what are the Moskurgians going to do, run away?) or by sneaking past. Once past the active lines of battle they can use their flame spells to devastating effect against any wooden and flammqble infrastructure. Ships can not sail from destroyed ports and soldiers will not march without food.
Quote
So the solution could be further propagating anti-magic. If the enemy can't cast spells, they can't cast heir lucky strike thing then their ranged effectiveness is severely reduced.
Hence anti-magic bombs
The anti magic bombs face at least 3 Moskurgian hard counters. They were a mistake.
Quote
1 Obscuring Mists 10ebbor10
In order to keep the vote simple, I decided to only include stuff that was actually voted upon. Otherwise we end up with 2 dozen proposals cluttering everything up.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 27, 2017, 04:16:50 pm
1 - (Anti-magic) "IFF System": Stabby
0 - Anti-magic bomb lingering anti-magic fields:
0 - Anti-magic mines:
0 - Attunement Rods:
0 - Crystal Tower Shields;
0 - Obscuring Mists:
0 - Variable Crystal Weapons:
0 - Fireball arrows:
0 -Earth Elemental Control - Construction:
0 - Saboteurs
These are all I found, can some one check it for missing suggestions and votes?
Edit: those anti-magic bomb aren't a mistake. If we can make them cheaper with the "IFF" they would be a full on horror to their mages.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 04:18:30 pm
Quote from: Clutter free list
1 - Steam Cannon: Stabby
1 - (Anti-magic) "IFF System": Stabby
1 - Obscuring Mists: 10ebbor10
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 27, 2017, 04:23:22 pm
What are these supposed hard counters anyways?
@Stabby: Nice work on the compiling. I feel I may as well support attunement rods for now. I would vote for my IFF thing but I think self-voting is slightly frowned upon. So I'll re-evaluate that later. Probably will end up voting for it.
Quote
1 - Steam Cannon: StabbyI assume "sell crystal weapons" is pretty much default unless someone explicitly votes against it so I didn't include it.
1 - (Anti-magic) "IFF System": Stabby
1 - Attunement Rods: Chiefwaffles
1 - Obscuring Mists: 10ebbor10
0 - Anti-magic bomb lingering anti-magic fields:
0 - Anti-magic mines:
0 - Crystal Tower Shields;
0 - Obscuring Mists:
0 - Variable Crystal Weapons:
0 - Fireball arrows:
0 -Earth Elemental Control - Construction:
0 - Saboteurs
Post by: RAM on April 27, 2017, 04:26:13 pm
There is no mistaking it. The fire wasps do not occur in nature and were made to our specifications, so they do not seem to have come from any extant population from beyond nature. The conjuration creates actual living beings, albeit temporary. They have instincts, purpose, and discretion. Let us focus upon this and amplify it to a very specific purpose, to persist! We have seen that the enemy spell nullifies the very concept of magic within its influence, so we give that concept the strength and tenacity to will itself into our mundane world regardless of what the weak-willed Keggers impose.
We mathemagically analyse the summon fire wasp spell to its component parts and rework their 'attack' aspect into a 'metaphysical persistence' aspect that allows them to directly counter attempts to dispel them at a fundamental level. We then take existing gem-crystal magic to provide this will with a reservoir of magic with which to defend itself.
We then use existing crystal-forging magic to imbue this effect into a crystal shield thick enough to resist their new hail of spears attack and light enough to be carried.
And then try to tag on a bit of magic-sense and will to "Proudly serve the Arstozkan homeland!" to have them compel their wielder to place them into the path of incoming threats, but this is low-priority.
Design: Codpiece-Rippers
The name is an unfortunate tale. It started with an unwillingness to use something obvious, loitered in tales of high piracy on the open seas, dove into bawdy romances, then took a turn for the offensively rebellious... The design, however, is for a larger longship. With two steam-plants and four oar-wheels(named paddle to some), it implements gemwork and systems from the forever frost tower to enhance the reliability and control of the spells but primarily implements a system of gears and belts to not only force the steam-power onto the mechanisms but also allow external power to be applied. Essentially, there are four rows of spokes which can be gripped and pulled in a motion similar to that of rowing to apply additional force to the oar-wheels. We no longer need to choose between steam and manpower, but can implement both! The key here is the complex gear systems that allow multiple input sources and alternate power->speed ratios. We also took the time to implement some obvious body-work, such as copper-cladding to increase hardness, a large ram with which to break any puny kegger vessels it strikes, and a forecastle to better besiege enemies. There are concerns about its ability to steer, but its insult-power is unmatched.
And, umm, resize the turbine? That sounds good...
Design: Plant-growth
By magically imbuing them with vitality-infused magic we stimulate the sudden growth of flora. It can be used for impromptu fortifications, knotted and spiky footing, or even cause tree-branches and roots to burst into enemy formations with far more force(though perhaps greatly lacking in speed) than required to pierce a dozen armoured horses.
Design: Permanent conjuration
With our magic being unmade, we must do what has defeated us so often in the past, and make fully mundane that which we conjure from myth.
Design: Pillar of unmagic
By focusing all of our mathemagical and trigothaumical developments, along with our experience of the forever frost towers, we construct a great tower with an intricate core of quartz, with dimond studding on key locations allowing exposed magical pathways which permit fine control of the effect. This is, in essence, a giant antimagic charm, but capable of detailed attunement. It will, with careful handling and a large amount of time spent measuring its effects and trial-and-erroring precisely what is needed, be able to select a single spell and absorb all instances of it within a single theatre of battle.
Quote from: designs
1 steam cannon: Stabby
1 Obscuring Mists: shameless10ebor10
0 Timed Bomb Arrows :
0 Variable Crystal Weapons :
0 Fireball arrows :
0 Earth Elemental Control :
1 - (Anti-magic) "IFF System": Stabbyx2
0 - Anti-magic bomb lingering anti-magic fields:
0 - Anti-magic mines:
2 Attunement Rods: RAM Chiefwaffles
0 Crystal Tower Shields:
0 Saboteurs :
0 Design: Living Shields:
0 Design: Codpiece-Rippers:
0 Plant-growth:
0 Permanent conjuration:
0 Pillar of unmagic:
Quote from: orders
1?Sell the Crystal Axes: shameless?
1 Use channelled fog: shamelessRAM
Post by: andrea on April 27, 2017, 04:36:42 pm
@Ebbor you seem a bit salty this last turn... relax! things are not going so bad.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 27, 2017, 04:44:06 pm
We could always improve the anti-magic bombs or use one of RAM's awesome ideas. Seriously. I love every one of those ideas, and we should definitely revisit them later.
Quote from: designs
1 steam cannon: Stabby
1 Obscuring Mists: shameless10ebor10
0 Timed Bomb Arrows :
0 Variable Crystal Weapons :
0 Fireball arrows :
0 Earth Elemental Control :
1 - (Anti-magic) "IFF System": Stabbyx2
0 - Anti-magic bomb lingering anti-magic fields:
0 - Anti-magic mines:
1 Attunement Rods: RAM
0 Crystal Tower Shields:
0 Saboteurs :
0 Design: Living Shields:
0 Design: Codpiece-Rippers:
1 Plant-growth: Chiefwaffles
0 Permanent conjuration:
0 Pillar of unmagic:
Quote from: orders
1?Sell the Crystal Axes: shameless?
1 Use channelled fog: shamelessRAM
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 04:48:26 pm
Quote
I'm sorry, did you just not read the combat report explicitly stating how effective they are?
Only because the GM made the Moskurgians hug the idiot ball and forgot to post guards at their camps. Oh, and had that camp attack been done by firewands, the Moskurgians would have had all their wizards killed. But we needed something to show the thing worked, so we get this illogical sequence of events were both sides conspire to showcase one tech.
Quote
What are these supposed hard counters anyways?
Aren't they obvious? Moskurgian wind spells can redirect or prematurely detonate them, Anti-magic deactivates them entirely.
Quote
1 steam cannon: Stabby
1 Obscuring Mists: 10ebor10
0 Timed Bomb Arrows :
0 Variable Crystal Weapons :
0 Fireball arrows :
0 Earth Elemental Control :
1 - (Anti-magic) "IFF System": Stabby
0 - Anti-magic bomb lingering anti-magic fields:
0 - Anti-magic mines:
1 Attunement Rods: RAM
0 Crystal Tower Shields:
0 Saboteurs :
0 Design: Living Shields:
0 Design: Codpiece-Rippers:
1 Plant-growth: Chiefwaffles
0 Permanent conjuration:
0 Pillar of unmagic:
Quote from: orders
1 Sell the Crystal Axes: 10ebbor10
1 Use channelled fog: RAM
Let's keep petty insults out of the vote tally. I think I cleared it up.
Quote
@Ebbor you seem a bit salty this last turn... relax! things are not going so bad
Bad is not the issue, illogical is. When logic no longer applies, this simply becomes a game of comparing dice.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 27, 2017, 04:50:32 pm
What a sucker.
Arstotzka has gained one Expense Credit.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 27, 2017, 04:52:19 pm
Shit.
Also ebbor, they have been proved to work. Please stop trying to find more "reasons" to hate anti-magic bombs just because they aren't 100% safe arrow-nukes.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 04:56:16 pm
Also ebbor, they have been proved to work. Please stop trying to find more "reasons" to hate anti-magic bombs just because they aren't 100% safe arrow-nukes.
I'm showcasing valid flaws.
Or are you going to argue that the Moskurgians do not have anti-magic that the GM has explicitedly said will disable our bombs. Or that they don't have wind spells that can deflect them?
We caught them by suprise by GM fiat, but they will wizen up and ignoring flaws will backfire.
Post by: Roboson on April 27, 2017, 04:57:42 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 27, 2017, 05:00:13 pm
@EvictedSaint: How effective is our channeled fog against their wind spell? Is it still getting blown away or are we capable of maintaining constant cover on our troops?
It's about even. The fog is continuously generated from the casting mage, so as long as the troops trying to hide are downwind it will more-or-less cover them.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 27, 2017, 05:03:13 pm
Design: Living Shields
There is no mistaking it. The fire wasps do not occur in nature and were made to our specifications, so they do not seem to have come from any extant population from beyond nature. The conjuration creates actual living beings, albeit temporary. They have instincts, purpose, and discretion. Let us focus upon this and amplify it to a very specific purpose, to persist! We have seen that the enemy spell nullifies the very concept of magic within its influence, so we give that concept the strength and tenacity to will itself into our mundane world regardless of what the weak-willed Keggers impose.
We mathemagically analyse the summon fire wasp spell to its component parts and rework their 'attack' aspect into a 'metaphysical persistence' aspect that allows them to directly counter attempts to dispel them at a fundamental level. We then take existing gem-crystal magic to provide this will with a reservoir of magic with which to defend itself.
We then use existing crystal-forging magic to imbue this effect into a crystal shield thick enough to resist their new hail of spears attack and light enough to be carried.
And then try to tag on a bit of magic-sense and will to "Proudly serve the Arstozkan homeland!" to have them compel their wielder to place them into the path of incoming threats, but this is low-priority.
Design: Codpiece-Rippers
The name is an unfortunate tale. It started with an unwillingness to use something obvious, loitered in tales of high piracy on the open seas, dove into bawdy romances, then took a turn for the offensively rebellious... The design, however, is for a larger longship. With two steam-plants and four oar-wheels(named paddle to some), it implements gemwork and systems from the forever frost tower to enhance the reliability and control of the spells but primarily implements a system of gears and belts to not only force the steam-power onto the mechanisms but also allow external power to be applied. Essentially, there are four rows of spokes which can be gripped and pulled in a motion similar to that of rowing to apply additional force to the oar-wheels. We no longer need to choose between steam and manpower, but can implement both! The key here is the complex gear systems that allow multiple input sources and alternate power->speed ratios. We also took the time to implement some obvious body-work, such as copper-cladding to increase hardness, a large ram with which to break any puny kegger vessels it strikes, and a forecastle to better besiege enemies. There are concerns about its ability to steer, but its insult-power is unmatched.
Design: Plant-growth
By magically imbuing them with vitality-infused magic we stimulate the sudden growth of flora. It can be used for impromptu fortifications, knotted and spiky footing, or even cause tree-branches and roots to burst into enemy formations with far more force(though perhaps greatly lacking in speed) than required to pierce a dozen armoured horses.
Design: Permanent conjuration
With our magic being unmade, we must do what has defeated us so often in the past, and make fully mundane that which we conjure from myth.
Design: Pillar of unmagic
By focusing all of our mathemagical and trigothaumical developments, along with our experience of the forever frost towers, we construct a great tower with an intricate core of quartz, with dimond studding on key locations allowing exposed magical pathways which permit fine control of the effect. This is, in essence, a giant antimagic charm, but capable of detailed attunement. It will, with careful handling and a large amount of time spent measuring its effects and trial-and-erroring precisely what is needed, be able to select a single spell and absorb all instances of it within a single theatre of battle.Quote from: designs1 steam cannon: Stabby
1 Obscuring Mists: shameless10ebor10
0 Timed Bomb Arrows :
0 Variable Crystal Weapons :
0 Fireball arrows :
0 Earth Elemental Control :
1 - (Anti-magic) "IFF System": Stabbyx2
0 - Anti-magic bomb lingering anti-magic fields:
0 - Anti-magic mines:
2 Attunement Rods: RAM Chiefwaffles
0 Crystal Tower Shields:
0 Saboteurs :
1 Design: Living Shields: Tyrant
0 Design: Codpiece-Rippers:
0 Plant-growth:
0 Permanent conjuration:
0 Pillar of unmagic:Quote from: orders1?Sell the Crystal Axes: shameless?
1 Use channelled fog: shamelessRAM
Shields we need in both theatres.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 27, 2017, 05:06:14 pm
If they have anti-magic then they don't need to have anti-magic bombs used. It's the ones without anti-magic that we only care about using anti-magic bombs in the first place.
I've gone over the wind thing so many times.
Blowing arrows off course =/= Making arrows do 180 degree turns and hitting the shooter of the arrow or making any friendly fire at all.
Post by: Roboson on April 27, 2017, 05:06:42 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 27, 2017, 05:08:36 pm
If we don't fix it now they'll gain a huge advantage. The longer we wait the harder it'll be to fix. And investing into things such as spells to fix it still help us into other areas, like using a plant-growth spell for cover, disrupting the enemies, etc.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 27, 2017, 05:11:53 pm
This is getting out of hand. Continue via pm's if you'd like, but unless you're strictly discussing what to do this design phase I want you to stop bickering. It's not constructive and I'm tired of seeing it.
Post by: Roboson on April 27, 2017, 05:12:23 pm
Plant growth is a bigger issue.
If we don't fix it now they'll gain a huge advantage. The longer we wait the harder it'll be to fix. And investing into things such as spells to fix it still help us into other areas, like using a plant-growth spell for cover, disrupting the enemies, etc.
I can always get behind plant growth again, it was one of my favorites.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 05:14:07 pm
Honestly, at this point, steam cannons sound like a nice investment. Their wind can't block a cannon ball and it could help at sea. Has that already been discussed for this phase?
Yup, in the beginning. My opinion is that we should not invest in experimental steam derived techniques when we can't even get ordinary ones to work.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 27, 2017, 05:15:19 pm
We made living animals and mist. It's not a large set to go from there to plants.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 05:16:56 pm
In addition, using conjuration has the risk that they vanish just like the crystals when faced with anti magic.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 27, 2017, 05:19:36 pm
Just because a flaw is present in related spells doesn't mean it has to be present in this one as well.
Post by: Roboson on April 27, 2017, 05:32:44 pm
Plant growth is new research. Ideally, we want something that uses old research.Honestly, at this point, steam cannons sound like a nice investment. Their wind can't block a cannon ball and it could help at sea. Has that already been discussed for this phase?
Yup, in the beginning. My opinion is that we should not invest in experimental steam derived techniques when we can't even get ordinary ones to work.
That's a good point, but we've already got the explosive bit to work, to some degree. And a steam cannon is significantly simpler than an engine. And it may give us something to use against enemy ships as well as in the jungle. We need to hold our position, and cannons are fantastic at doing so. There are a lot of potential benefits to steam cannons, especially if they're investing in ballistas.
However, if we continue on the way we have been in the jungle, we will be giving them an advantage there that will make it much harder for us to hold. (And may or may not effect the bonus from there). Learning how to accelerate plant growth could solve those issues and could potentially make their lives hell in the same way storm magic has for us.
EDIT:
Quote from: designs
1 steam cannon: Stabby
1 Obscuring Mists: shameless10ebor10
0 Timed Bomb Arrows :
0 Variable Crystal Weapons :
0 Fireball arrows :
0 Earth Elemental Control :
1 - (Anti-magic) "IFF System": Stabbyx2
0 - Anti-magic bomb lingering anti-magic fields:
0 - Anti-magic mines:
1 Attunement Rods: RAM
0 Crystal Tower Shields:
0 Saboteurs :
0 Design: Living Shields:
0 Design: Codpiece-Rippers:
2 Plant-growth: Chiefwaffles, Roboson
0 Permanent conjuration:
0 Pillar of unmagic:
Quote from: orders
1?Sell the Crystal Axes: shameless?
1 Use channelled fog: shamelessRAM
I think I'm going to put my vote into plant grow/manipulation. It has boundless possibilities (notice I'm not saying we're going to get them all in one design phase) if we invest in it. And it's incredibly difficult to counter.
Spoiler: My Plant Thoughts (click to show/hide)
Post by: RAM on April 27, 2017, 05:41:15 pm
@Ram about the codpiece ripper, the main problem of our steam engine is us not knowing the right size for the turbine yet. Do you intend to fix that in the revision? I feel that it could be added to the design, if you simplify other stuff like the gearwork. For example, instead of using an oar motion, we can have wheels with handles. Or actual oars in other parts of the ship.I added a token comment about the turbines. Sorry that I didn't track the steam progress closely enough to know the details. But I feel that the transmission stuff is somewhat new and important and ought to be the focus. Steam really isn't my forte but I wanted a steamship recipe out there so I made one. Feel free to rip it off mercilessly to make your own if you like. I might make a snide comment about unoriginality but it would be meant jokingly!
We made living animals and mist. It's not a large set to go from there to plants.Mine is a new field. We have worked with living matter before, so hopefully that would help, but the point is to make vegetation thrive, rather than to plop up some trees when needed. It is a pretty huge field of possibilities if it works. Things like revised farming to increase troop numbers, rapid spread spells to encroach the jungle into the desert, animate trees to have the jungle get up and walk to Moskurg-Prime and sit outside their gates... Not to mention the sprout sprog spell to manufacture Arstozkans by the dozen from a common cabbage-patch... And the endless need to produce wooden equipment would be aided by such magic, both obviously in quality and perhaps in quantity if we can nurture some mythical tree varieties... Or just unite the whole jungle into a single Yggdrasil sapling and watch it bloom...
But yeah, new tech is expensive, so you gotta be judicious.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 27, 2017, 05:44:39 pm
and besides we need a field of magic to replace crystals as they kinda lost their use currently.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 27, 2017, 05:58:16 pm
It could even help in things like shielding against enemy ranges attacks without any further improvements. Assuming we don't get utterly awful rolls.
So that's... 2? more people supporting plant growth? Stabby and Roboson (wasn't sure about RAM). If I messed something up, feel free to change it yourself.
Quote
1 steam cannon: Stabby
1 Obscuring Mists: 10ebor10
0 Timed Bomb Arrows :
0 Variable Crystal Weapons :
0 Fireball arrows :
0 Earth Elemental Control :
1 - (Anti-magic) "IFF System": Stabby
0 - Anti-magic bomb lingering anti-magic fields:
0 - Anti-magic mines:
1 Attunement Rods: RAM
0 Crystal Tower Shields:
0 Saboteurs :
0 Design: Living Shields:
0 Design: Codpiece-Rippers:
1 Plant-growth: Chiefwaffles
0 Permanent conjuration:
0 Pillar of unmagic:
Quote from: orders
1 Sell the Crystal Axes: 10ebbor10
3 Use channelled fog: RAM, Robison, Stabby
Post by: Roboson on April 27, 2017, 05:59:12 pm
Quote from: designs
1 steam cannon: Stabby
1 Obscuring Mists: shameless10ebor10
0 Timed Bomb Arrows :
0 Variable Crystal Weapons :
0 Fireball arrows :
0 Earth Elemental Control :
1 - (Anti-magic) "IFF System": Stabbyx2
0 - Anti-magic bomb lingering anti-magic fields:
0 - Anti-magic mines:
1 Attunement Rods: RAM
0 Crystal Tower Shields:
0 Saboteurs :
0 Design: Living Shields:
0 Design: Codpiece-Rippers:
2 Plant-growth: Chiefwaffles, Roboson
0 Permanent conjuration:
0 Pillar of unmagic:
Updated my vote. As I brought plant manipulation to the table a few turns ago, I will definately still support it. I'm not above voting for my own things :P
Post by: Andres on April 27, 2017, 06:01:03 pm
Quote
1 steam cannon: Stabby
1 Obscuring Mists: shameless10ebor10
0 Timed Bomb Arrows :
0 Variable Crystal Weapons :
0 Fireball arrows :
0 Earth Elemental Control :
1 - (Anti-magic) "IFF System": Stabbyx2
0 - Anti-magic bomb lingering anti-magic fields:
0 - Anti-magic mines:
1 Attunement Rods: RAM
0 Crystal Tower Shields:
0 Saboteurs :
0 Design: Living Shields:
0 Design: Codpiece-Rippers:
2 Plant-growth: Chiefwaffles, Roboson
0 Permanent conjuration:
0 Pillar of unmagic:
1 Ballista: Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Azzuro on April 27, 2017, 06:33:27 pm
Design: Firecrystal Ballistae
Arstotzkan mages research a way to infuse conjured crystal with the same elemental fire used in our fireballs. The firecrystal is warm to the touch, and will explode in a fireball when dispelled or shattered on contact. It is used to craft the bolts for a newly designed ballista, capable of being ship-mounted and helping us win the seas with a range advantage.
Guys we should totally have done this, now Moskurg beat us to it.
Oh, and +1 to the two designs per person. As it stands we have way too many ideas and some of them seem to overlap quite a bit.
Quote from: Seriously, this thing is too long
1 steam cannon: Stabby
2 Obscuring Mists: shameless10ebor10, Azzuro
0 Timed Bomb Arrows :
0 Variable Crystal Weapons :
0 Fireball arrows :
0 Earth Elemental Control :
1 - (Anti-magic) "IFF System": Stabbyx2
0 - Anti-magic bomb lingering anti-magic fields:
0 - Anti-magic mines:
1 Attunement Rods: RAM
0 Crystal Tower Shields:
0 Saboteurs :
0 Design: Living Shields:
0 Design: Codpiece-Rippers:
2 Plant-growth: Chiefwaffles, Roboson
0 Permanent conjuration:
0 Pillar of unmagic:
1 Ballista: Andres
Voting for the battlefield-wide Obscuring Mists, as we need it for the upcoming Plains and it may help at Sea. Plus it may help nullify the new Moskurg ballistae.
Oh, and does anyone else think their ballistae have lucky strike imbued into them somehow? Sniping all our mages and commanders would seem to indicate so. Although I can't figure out why they would taper off?
Post by: Roboson on April 27, 2017, 06:43:42 pm
Oh, and +1 to the two designs per person. As it stands we have way too many ideas and some of them seem to overlap quite a bit.
Oh we could just require a vote to get onto the list. I'd rather limit the size of the list than limit the discussion.
Edit: I mean like one vote to get onto the list, not that we hold a vote to put things on the list. That would be crazy.
Post by: RAM on April 27, 2017, 06:45:42 pm
Oh, and does anyone else think their ballistae have lucky strike imbued into them somehow? Sniping all our mages and commanders would seem to indicate so. Although I can't figure out why they would taper off?Design flaw, they probably break down frequently, don't expect it to last.
And they must have lucky strike, no way is a catapult going to hit a boat at sea...
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 27, 2017, 06:46:24 pm
Quote from: Seriously, this thing is too long
1 steam cannon: Stabby
3 Obscuring Mists:10ebor10, Azzuro, voidlsayer
0 Timed Bomb Arrows :
0 Variable Crystal Weapons :
0 Fireball arrows :
0 Earth Elemental Control :
1 - (Anti-magic) "IFF System": Stabbyx2
0 - Anti-magic bomb lingering anti-magic fields:
0 - Anti-magic mines:
1 Attunement Rods: RAM
0 Crystal Tower Shields:
0 Saboteurs :
0 Design: Living Shields:
0 Design: Codpiece-Rippers:
2 Plant-growth: Chiefwaffles, Roboson
0 Permanent conjuration:
0 Pillar of unmagic:
1 Ballista: Andres
Obscuring mists seems the least out there, going for that.
Post by: Roboson on April 27, 2017, 06:52:10 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 27, 2017, 07:11:23 pm
Quote from: Seriously, this thing is too long
1 steam cannon: Stabby
3 Obscuring Mists:10ebor10, Azzuro, voidlsayer
0 Timed Bomb Arrows :
0 Variable Crystal Weapons :
0 Fireball arrows :
0 Earth Elemental Control :
1 - (Anti-magic) "IFF System": Stabbyx2
0 - Anti-magic bomb lingering anti-magic fields:
0 - Anti-magic mines:
1 Attunement Rods: RAM
0 Crystal Tower Shields:
0 Saboteurs :
0 Design: Living Shields:
0 Design: Codpiece-Rippers:
3 Plant-growth: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, Stabby
0 Permanent conjuration:
0 Pillar of unmagic:
1 Ballista: Andres
Also obscuring mist still means the jungles turn into plains next batte report, giving the moskurgians a huge advantage.
And what stops Moskurg from just revising their wind spell to make obscuring mists irrelevant again? We want to branch out into things they don't have counters to yet.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 27, 2017, 07:13:09 pm
And in navy just do designs there.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 27, 2017, 07:15:48 pm
Whoops. I messed up and put Roboson and Stabby in the deploy order instead of plant growth. Roboson fixed it already but I'll move Stabby back to the right spot.Quote from: Seriously, this thing is too long1 steam cannon: Stabby
3 Obscuring Mists:10ebor10, Azzuro, voidlsayer
0 Timed Bomb Arrows :
0 Variable Crystal Weapons :
0 Fireball arrows :
0 Earth Elemental Control :
1 - (Anti-magic) "IFF System": Stabbyx2
0 - Anti-magic bomb lingering anti-magic fields:
0 - Anti-magic mines:
1 Attunement Rods: RAM
0 Crystal Tower Shields:
0 Saboteurs :
0 Design: Living Shields:
0 Design: Codpiece-Rippers:
4 Plant-growth: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, Stabby, tyrant
0 Permanent conjuration:
0 Pillar of unmagic:
1 Ballista: Andres
Considering my living shield vote does not count. Switched it. And screw ballista of our own. Cannons are the future. With time.]
Post by: evictedSaint on April 27, 2017, 07:26:40 pm
Regardless, I'll roll the design for plant-growth here in a little bit unless you guys change your minds in the meantime.
Post by: RAM on April 27, 2017, 07:47:41 pm
The antimagic charms are, well, a good idea, but they don't use much directed magic against the rank-and-file.
Can we use it on our apprentices for more fireballs?
Post by: Light forger on April 27, 2017, 07:49:39 pm
I don't think we should focus on keep the jungle, well a jungle. I think we should start working to counter their advantages in the plains and in doing so stop the deforestation of the jungle from being an issue. Also just to make things tidier.
Limit two designs per person.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 27, 2017, 08:00:19 pm
Limit two designs per person.I'll second that all it does is cause discussion to get crowded and makes count votes a pain.
Post by: Roboson on April 27, 2017, 09:05:03 pm
I don't think we should focus on keep the jungle, well a jungle. I think we should start working to counter their advantages in the plains and in doing so stop the deforestation of the jungle from being an issue. Also just to make things tidier.
It being a jungle is what gives us the advantage there. If it was open and deforested, we would not only lose our bonus, but Moskurg would gain a bonus. We'd go from a having an innate advantage there, to being at a disadvantage. Honestly, if we wanted to counter their advantages in the plains, we would plant a jungle there.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 27, 2017, 09:08:44 pm
Let's also keep talk about expense credits for revision/orders (if we can use expense credit in orders) phase just to keep it organized, by the way.
EDIT: And now apparently it turns out we need a tiebreaker. Let me re-summarize my argument:
1.) The jungle is going to disappear.
2.) The jungle gives us a huge advantage
3.) Obscuring mist gives a minor advantage which can also be easily countered with a revision of their existing spells.
4.) Plant growth keeps the jungle from disappearing, keeping our huge advantage.
5.) In addition to having the jungle not disappear, plant growth also provides a variety of other benefits - visual and physical shielding from their ranged units like ballistas, stealth, skirmishes, routing phases, and more.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 27, 2017, 09:18:57 pm
Quote from: Can we remove every thing that doesn't have a vote now?
0 steam cannon:
4 Obscuring Mists:10ebor10, Azzuro, voidlsayer, LightForger
0 Timed Bomb Arrows :
0 Variable Crystal Weapons :
0 Fireball arrows :
0 Earth Elemental Control :
0 (Anti-magic) "IFF System":
0 Anti-magic bomb lingering anti-magic fields:
0 Anti-magic mines:
1 Attunement Rods: RAM
0 Crystal Tower Shields:
0 Saboteurs :
0 Design: Living Shields:
0 Design: Codpiece-Rippers:
4 Plant-growth: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, Stabby, tyrant
0 Permanent conjuration:
0 Pillar of unmagic:
1 Ballista: Andres
So RAM Andres you two are the deciding vote(s), and I'm going to state the fact that once again if the plants in the jungle die, they are going to overrun us with calvary again.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 27, 2017, 09:22:22 pm
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 27, 2017, 09:33:45 pm
All the most wil donis get blown away by their wind magic, which they can easily do.
Plants? They will have to change their game plan AND it will make defending The taiga even easier to boot.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 27, 2017, 09:58:45 pm
I need a tie breaker, please.
Sure switch to plants whatever, lets make crystal bladed thorn bushes next wooo
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 27, 2017, 09:59:36 pm
Quote from: Can we remove every thing that doesn't have a vote now?
0 steam cannon:
3 Obscuring Mists:10ebor10, Azzuro LightForger
0 Timed Bomb Arrows :
0 Variable Crystal Weapons :
0 Fireball arrows :
0 Earth Elemental Control :
0 (Anti-magic) "IFF System":
0 Anti-magic bomb lingering anti-magic fields:
0 Anti-magic mines:
1 Attunement Rods: RAM
0 Crystal Tower Shields:
0 Saboteurs :
0 Design: Living Shields:
0 Design: Codpiece-Rippers:
5 Plant-growth: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, Stabby, tyrant, voidslayer
0 Pillar of unmagic:
1 Ballista: Andres
Post by: evictedSaint on April 27, 2017, 10:02:16 pm
We have some experience bringing life into the world - primarily through wasps, but it's experience nonetheless. As it turns out, making things grow is pretty dang easy compared to spewing blood-thirsty wasps out of your fingertips.
The spell is cast through a wand of fresh-cut dogwood, still green and sticky with sap. It requires rather precise cutting, engraving, and enchantment before it can be used, but dogwood trees are common and a mage could produce a wand a day, given the time and motivation. The downside is that the wands only last a couple days before they dry out and stop working, but that's not a big issue due to the relative ease of production.
The effect is currently constrained to what our mathemagicians refer to as "low-level" plants - grasses, weeds, wildflowers, plants of that nature. Each plant must be enchanted one at a time, with each enchantment taking a couple minutes to perform, but once enchanted the plant can grow from a sproutling to full adulthood over the course of single day. Aside from the eventual combat applications, our researchers are excited as to how this spell can be used in civilian life. Poor harvests may one day be a thing of the past, and we will never want for wood to keep our homes warm at night. Imagine growing tropical fruits in the dry, cold tundra of our homelands. Oranges and pears for breakfast and dinner every day, rose gardens lining every road in Arstotzka, full granaries of wheat and corn every autumn - our King seems particularly pleased with the direction of our research. It still needs a bit of work, but our current progress is very promising. Cheap.
Post by: Roboson on April 27, 2017, 10:03:03 pm
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but this seems the situation to me:
1) We've taken the jungle and now have to hold it.
2) Because of our rampant spellcasting, we're destroying the jungle.
3) Destroying the jungle costs us our close quarters bonus, and gives them the open spaces bonus (Which is worse than just us loosing our bonus).
4) If we use our tower of frost and or fireballs in jungle this turn, it becomes deforested.
So we have a few options:
A) We use fire and frost to hold the jungle this turn, thus destroying it, and making it much harder to hold in the future (including this turn).
B) We try and hold the jungle without using the tower of frost or our fireball spells. Which is basically impossible and almost a definite loss of territory.
C) We get plant magic which not only helps us hold the jungle by its own merits, but allows us to regrow the damage we're causing. Which solves all of our immediate issues.
D) We get whatever else we want, destroy the jungle, and lose it either this turn or next like we lost the plains.
I need a tie breaker, please.
Sure switch to plants whatever, lets make crystal bladed thorn bushes next wooo
Let it be known that VoidSlayer is a true Arstotzkan hero. And specifically, my hero.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 27, 2017, 10:13:17 pm
Revise: Large-scale Plant Growth - The Wand of Plant Growth/whatever its name is can be used to create thick foliage and trees (appropriate of a jungle). In addition to keeping the jungle alive and well, this can be used to block enemies, create cover, shield ourselves from view, and more.
Expense credit: Anti-magic bombs - If we get more anti-magic bomb arrows (and are careful with their use, but that's a given; especially considered the lack of friendly fire last update) and spread them throughout our ranged forces, that will greatly increase our effectiveness against enemy mages. By a huge degree, probably.
Quote from: Actions
1 - Revise Large-scale Plant Growth: Chiefwaffles
1 - Expense credit for Anti-magic bombs: Chiefwaffles
Post by: Roboson on April 27, 2017, 10:20:50 pm
Expense credit: Anti-magic bombs - If we get more anti-magic bomb arrows (and are careful with their use, but that's a given; especially considered the lack of friendly fire last update) and spread them throughout our ranged forces, that will greatly increase our effectiveness against enemy mages. By a huge degree, probably.
Unfortunately if we do that, it will kill lots of our troops. It sounds like even being close to our mages will set them off.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 27, 2017, 10:24:59 pm
Actually, y'know what...
evicted: Are our ranged units typically in close range with our mages? Would deploying wide-scale anti-magic bombs prove an risk?
Genuinely curious now here.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 27, 2017, 10:28:02 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 27, 2017, 10:35:25 pm
It's generally infantry in the front, archers in the back, calvary on the flanks, and mages scattered throughout. Your Theatre Commander is competent enough not to put magic-sensitive bombs next to the mages and will reallocate his forces as tech develops.
If that's the case,
Quote from: Actions
2 - Revise Large-scale Plant Growth: Chiefwaffles, Roboson
2 - Expense credit for Anti-magic bombs: Chiefwaffles, Roboson
Do anti-magic charms prevent arrow detonation
You know what? No, they don't detonate in anti-magic fields. Just remember, you asked for this.
I really don't like that this happened.
Post by: RAM on April 27, 2017, 10:55:23 pm
Just refine everything. Get the turbines better fitted, get the transmission well-secured and reliable, perfect the fog-summoning technique to supply water(preferably with a more condensed fog spell but that is
Revision: Summon water.
Concentrate the summoned fog into a water spell, to reduce logistics, control fires, make camps more self-reliant and bring water to the desert. And, umm, try to avoid it disappearing after someone has drunk it... Just, y'know, watch out for that, but it should still work fine for the steam engine...
Ooooh oooh!!! Idea! Sacrifices for permanent conjurings! We sacrifice something and the conjuration replaces it! Conjure permanent water by sacrificing sand! Permanent crystals by sacrificing metal! Permanent annoying biting stinging wasps by sacrificing unwanted Moskurger pests... It could be the final key to making our crystal stuff last forever. I would want this to be added as an addendum to the summon water revision, but it is a lot to ask from a revision as it sort of covers new ground. On the other hand, the effect is just to make the summoned fog spell permanent, arg, so many designs we need...
Quote
revisionTrees mean Favourable campsites, healthy jungle, and minor additional cover against sky-spears. Also it is one step closer to Yggdrasil and the end of the world as Midgard becomes but a footnote to a glorious root-system...
3 - (Chiefwaffles)Revise Large-scale Plant Growth: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, RAM
0 - (RAM)Refined Steam Engines:
0 - (RAM)Summon water:
Credit
2 - (Chiefwaffles)Expense credit for Anti-magic bombs: Chiefwaffles, Roboson
Orders
I am fine with the expense credit there, but I just don't feel inspired by the thing.
I really don't like that this happened.I feel that, but I always expected that to be the case. It is the logical outcome that something that absorbs magic won't work when magic is sucked out of the environment. I am a little dubious as to whether all anti-magic fields would be like this. Ours work by draining all the magic from an area, something that works more like a jamming field should still be throwing magic around and be just as vulnerable as any other magic. Something that forcefully nullifies magic would be tricky. It probably works by pushing magic into an area and then creating an effect that insists on magical absence(basically a form of wishing magic where the wish is for no magic), in which case they will still be hit with magic and have something to use as fuel, but maybe their magical nature gets cancelled. I somewhat dislike the antimagic transparency here because our antimagic creates a magical void, which really ought to be one of the most reliable and powerful antimagic effects, but is very difficult to project over a distance or aim at a target. The antimagic bombs are a good example of this, they are not beams, they are not invoked onto a target, they are not conjured in thin-air, they are just an ordinary sphere of magic vacuum that is thrown using very mundane means.. Their thing seems pretty easy to project over a distance and capable of spontaneously zapping a fireball spell in progress and seems to function just fine when wielded by their own mages. So I would like to think that it has some limitations in terms of raw power or metamagic foundations in terms of what trumps what when they meet. And it seems extremely odd to me that our own antimagic ignores our crystals weapons when they suck magic out of the environment, indicating that the crystals are, at least, impermeable to their own magic leaving them through raw suction, yet instantly vanish under enemy scrutiny, as though the underpinnings of their existence were exposed to all the world...
But still, I walways expected that an antimagic spell would turn them off. It still means shooting their own mages with antimagic, which presumably takes out the mage that is busy antimagicking and the mage that is being antimagicked, unless they can antimagic themselves while antimagicking themselves, which should be difficult because they are being antimagicked... And if they can antimagic themselves, they still aren't casting anything else unless they learn double-casting... !doublecasting!
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 27, 2017, 11:42:45 pm
Revision: Refined steam engines.
Just refine everything. Get the turbines better fitted, get the transmission well-secured and reliable, perfect the fog-summoning technique to supply water(preferably with a more condensed fog spell but that isprobablytoo much to ask for...), clean up the boiler to manage the pressure and cleaning access better(although if it runs wholly on conjuration it shouldn't need much more than a small pressure whistle to tell people to reduce the fuelless flame or pure water...)... Just get the thing operating well with what we have so it is ready for a ship design on the morrow.
Revision: Summon water.
Concentrate the summoned fog into a water spell, to reduce logistics, control fires, make camps more self-reliant and bring water to the desert. And, umm, try to avoid it disappearing after someone has drunk it... Just, y'know, watch out for that, but it should still work fine for the steam engine...
Ooooh oooh!!! Idea! Sacrifices for permanent conjurings! We sacrifice something and the conjuration replaces it! Conjure permanent water by sacrificing sand! Permanent crystals by sacrificing metal! Permanent annoying biting stinging wasps by sacrificing unwanted Moskurger pests... It could be the final key to making our crystal stuff last forever. I would want this to be added as an addendum to the summon water revision, but it is a lot to ask from a revision as it sort of covers new ground. On the other hand, the effect is just to make the summoned fog spell permanent, arg, so many designs we need...QuoterevisionTrees mean Favourable campsites, healthy jungle, and minor additional cover against sky-spears. Also it is one step closer to Yggdrasil and the end of the world as Midgard becomes but a footnote to a glorious root-system...
4 - (Chiefwaffles)Revise Large-scale Plant Growth: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, RAM, Tyrant
0 - (RAM)Refined Steam Engines:
0 - (RAM)Summon water:
Credit
2 - (Chiefwaffles)Expense credit for Anti-magic bombs: Chiefwaffles, Roboson
Orders
I am fine with the expense credit there, but I just don't feel inspired by the thing.I really don't like that this happened.I feel that, but I always expected that to be the case. It is the logical outcome that something that absorbs magic won't work when magic is sucked out of the environment. I am a little dubious as to whether all anti-magic fields would be like this. Ours work by draining all the magic from an area, something that works more like a jamming field should still be throwing magic around and be just as vulnerable as any other magic. Something that forcefully nullifies magic would be tricky. It probably works by pushing magic into an area and then creating an effect that insists on magical absence(basically a form of wishing magic where the wish is for no magic), in which case they will still be hit with magic and have something to use as fuel, but maybe their magical nature gets cancelled. I somewhat dislike the antimagic transparency here because our antimagic creates a magical void, which really ought to be one of the most reliable and powerful antimagic effects, but is very difficult to project over a distance or aim at a target. The antimagic bombs are a good example of this, they are not beams, they are not invoked onto a target, they are not conjured in thin-air, they are just an ordinary sphere of magic vacuum that is thrown using very mundane means.. Their thing seems pretty easy to project over a distance and capable of spontaneously zapping a fireball spell in progress and seems to function just fine when wielded by their own mages. So I would like to think that it has some limitations in terms of raw power or metamagic foundations in terms of what trumps what when they meet. And it seems extremely odd to me that our own antimagic ignores our crystals weapons when they suck magic out of the environment, indicating that the crystals are, at least, impermeable to their own magic leaving them through raw suction, yet instantly vanish under enemy scrutiny, as though the underpinnings of their existence were exposed to all the world...
But still, I walways expected that an antimagic spell would turn them off. It still means shooting their own mages with antimagic, which presumably takes out the mage that is busy antimagicking and the mage that is being antimagicked, unless they can antimagic themselves while antimagicking themselves, which should be difficult because they are being antimagicked... And if they can antimagic themselves, they still aren't casting anything else unless they learn double-casting... !doublecasting!
Voted. And only have twelve design/branches left in me anyway. For latter. (Some others are revision)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 27, 2017, 11:48:39 pm
Quote
revision
4 - (Chiefwaffles)Revise Large-scale Plant Growth: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, RAM, Tyrant
0 - (RAM)Refined Steam Engines:
0 - (RAM)Summon water:
1 -(10ebbor10) Anti Lucky strike charms
Credit
2 - (Chiefwaffles)Expense credit for Anti-magic bombs: Chiefwaffles, Roboson
1 - (10ebbor10) Expense credit on longboats : 10ebbor10
Orders
You are all happily forgetting that we're on the cusp of losing the seas. Which, if we do, will give a significant bonus to Moskurg.
Revision : Modify Anti-magic charms to protect against lucky strike and other long range magic
Expense credit : Use on our longboats.
On a side note,our naval commander is an idiot. For several turns the Moskurgians have been running away from him, and his only action is to wait and let it happen?
When the enemy runs away, you go after things that they must defend. Go to their ports and burn them down, force them to engage in combat.
Edit :Tyrant Leviathan, please don't quote an dntire massive post. It's a mess.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 28, 2017, 12:22:16 am
As for navy: Yes they are beating us now. But we are focused on jungle. If we gain it for good, cheaper boats. Then we kick their asses at sea.
Designs: Honestly aside my stuff just going to vote or or bring up what others have said. If I feel it's worth it. ( And my main two ideas next phase is all navy.)
Just praying we beat the enemy and keep jungle. Then shift focus.
Our navy commander is a idiot who needs replacing btw.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on April 28, 2017, 12:25:34 am
Post by: RAM on April 28, 2017, 12:54:31 am
Had a thought. What if their antimagic works by convincing our mages they can't use magic? Like a mental block?That makes a lot of sense, right up until it makes the caltrops vanish. I am pretty sure that it is either wish-based magic-denial or teleportation-based magic void, or possibly a MASSIVE disruption that completely changes the laws of magic at the most fundamental level. The wizard we questioned said that it was like magic just didn't exist anymore(like a child flapping their arms trying to fly? except moreso because they didn't even feel wind under their arms?)... My best hope is the living magic approach, where the magic can will itself into being against a denial effect and manually hold onto its magic in a drain. But the crystals are already immune to our drain so why would theirs be different? Is it just stronger? When it doesn't even have a material focus?
Revision : Modify Anti-magic charms to protect against lucky strike and other long range magicIt is in the basic rules of the game. Territory doesn't exist, only armies.
...
When the enemy runs away, you go after things that they must defend. Go to their ports and burn them down, force them to engage in combat.
I dislike revisions and such that lack justification. It is ultimately up to the G.M., and my votes rarely count for much, so you are not losing much, but it is my understanding that the charms don't work that way, unless the aiming spell needs to sense our position somehow, but that ought to fail already... It basically just makes the other people luckier, and has no effect on us. Luck being a tangible element is pretty powerful when you think about it, but that does seem to be the only explanation. This is pretty bad when they are on another ship and our antimagic charms have a range of about a metre or so. Effectively the only way to extend them is to move them, which we are already doing with the bombs. We could try to extend the range of the bombs I suppose... It also points out a value for increasing the volume of antimagic bombs against mundane soldiers. They do seem to love their buff-spells over there so I might vote for the expense going to the bombs... Except I am too lazy to copy the tally...
Ehh, sorry, my metagaming instincts are too strong. : (
Quote
revision
4 - (Chiefwaffles)Revise Large-scale Plant Growth: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, RAM, Tyrant
0 - (RAM)Refined Steam Engines:
0 - (RAM)Summon water:
1 -(10ebbor10) Anti Lucky strike charms
Credit
2 - (Chiefwaffles)Expense credit for Anti-magic bombs: Chiefwaffles, Roboson
1 - (10ebbor10) Expense credit on longboats : 10ebbor10
1 - (RAM) Myark: RAM
Orders
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 01:22:14 am
Revision : Modify Anti-magic charms to protect against lucky strike and other long range magic
...
When the enemy runs away, you go after things that they must defend. Go to their ports and burn them down, force them to engage in combat.
It is in the basic rules of the game. Territory doesn't exist, only armies.
I dislike revisions and such that lack justification. It is ultimately up to the G.M., and my votes rarely count for much, so you are not losing much, but it is my understanding that the charms don't work that way, unless the aiming spell needs to sense our position somehow, but that ought to fail already... It basically just makes the other people luckier, and has no effect on us. Luck being a tangible element is pretty powerful when you think about it, but that does seem to be the only explanation. This is pretty bad when they are on another ship and our antimagic charms have a range of about a metre or so. Effectively the only way to extend them is to move them, which we are already doing with the bombs. We could try to extend the range of the bombs I suppose... It also points out a value for increasing the volume of antimagic bombs against mundane soldiers. They do seem to love their buff-spells over there so I might vote for the expense going to the bombs... Except I am too lazy to copy the tally...
Personally I think that we could completely revise our anti-magic charms to block lucky-strike. I think there are really only two ways it could work, so here they are and how our magic could defeat them.
1) It makes their arrows magically home in on our soldier's weak points via magical guidance. If this is the case, the charms should make them invisible to that guidance system.
2) It enchants the bow, arrow, or shooter to with magic so their arrows strike true or are just luckier via magic. If this is the case, our charms may not be able to stop them, but our bomb arrows should detonate on them since they're magical. (Could I get a GM check on that after this combat phase?)
One thing we may want to invest in, and that those evil-doers will never see coming, is a lucky miss spell. Where an arrow just barely misses as if its trajectory changes at just the last moment and misses our soldiers. We would never have been able to guess that their arrows were lucky if we didn't know about it from the beginning.
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 01:25:04 am
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 01:31:40 am
I wasn't awake for most of the discussion, but did anyone bring up the fact that should we perform decently, we will fight on the desert next turn? A good ground combat design would have saved the jungle all the same.
Yeah, it was discussed. It would have won us the jungle, but cost us our advantage there for future battles.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 01:33:48 am
As for navy: Yes they are beating us now. But we are focused on jungle. If we gain it for good, cheaper boats. Then we kick their asses at sea.
If they defeat us at Sea, they get a massive combat advantage in the Jungle. We can not hold the Jungle with an enemy sea advantage.
Quote
When it doesn't even have a material focus?
It has a material focus
Quote
On the offensive they'll get close with their ivory staffs and prevent our mages from smiting attacking Moskurgs with fireba
...
Quote
It is in the basic rules of the game. Territory doesn't exist, only armies
The basic rules were abandoned for GM fiat, because the program kept doing weird stuff.
Quote
I dislike revisions and such that lack justification
Have some pseudo-magical nonsense.
It's a fundamental feature of magic that any spell must have an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore, if one person casts a fireball, the other is hit by a "going to be hit by fireball" effect. By modifying our charms to deactivate those negative efects jnstead of just active ones, we can detach the inevitability of the hit, dramatically rddycing the accuracy of long range spells.
Quote
We could try to extend the range of the bombs I suppose... It also points out a value for increasing the volume of antimagic bombs against mundane soldiers. They do seem to love their buff-spells over there so I might vote for the expense going to the bombs... Except I am too lazy to copy the tally
The bombs will not help, because their ballista has greater range than our archers.
I wasn't awake for most of the discussion, but did anyone bring up the fact that should we perform decently, we will fight on the desert next turn? A good ground combat design would have saved the jungle all the same.
I planned on punching into the plains first.
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 02:15:54 am
Quote
revision
4 - (Chiefwaffles)Revise Large-scale Plant Growth: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, RAM, Tyrant
0 - (RAM)Refined Steam Engines:
0 - (RAM)Summon water:
1 -(10ebbor10) Anti Lucky strike charms
Credit
1 - (Chiefwaffles)Expense credit for Anti-magic bombs: Chiefwaffles
2 - (10ebbor10) Expense credit on longboats : 10ebbor10, Roboson
1 - (RAM) Myark: RAM
I'm changing my vote for the expense credit. Longships would be better off being less expensive, especially if we can ever get steam-engines viable.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 02:18:40 am
I say once we secure the jungle, we should then focus on the sea with regular designs and revisions. Anti-magic bombs could even help us there, since they do have wizards on their boats, their wizards do use magic, our anti-magic bombs explode with magic, and cause fires.
Cheaper anti-magic bombs help us in land and at sea. Cheaper longboats just help us at sea.
Also, RAM: What's the expense credit on Myark supposed to mean?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 02:26:09 am
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Anti-magic bombs would be the way to win in the Jungle, and would significantly help us in any land scenario.No, they're not.
All they do is kill the enemy mages. It does nothing else. It's useless against normal infantry, against cavalry, and against their siege weaponry.
If the enemy uses their wind spell, they're useless. If they improve their anti-magic, they're useless. If they get more shields, they're useless (if we don't know behind which shield the mage us hiding, we can't shoot it).
They're not the wunderwaffe you think they are.
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I say once we secure the jungle, we should then focus on the sea with regular designs and revisions. Anti-magic bombs could even help us there, since they do have wizards on their boats, their wizards do use magic, our anti-magic bombs explode with magic, and cause fires.
If we lose the Sea, we won't secure the Jungle or hold it for long.
The enemy is attacking us from beyond our longbow range. Our anti-magic bombs can never reach them. We will not gain any benefit from arrows at sea., just as we didn't get anything from fireballs.
Extra ships could outflank them and cut them of, forcing them into fireball range.
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 02:29:00 am
Anti-magic bombs would be the way to win in the Jungle, and would significantly help us in any land scenario.
I say once we secure the jungle, we should then focus on the sea with regular designs and revisions. Anti-magic bombs could even help us there, since they do have wizards on their boats, their wizards do use magic, our anti-magic bombs explode with magic, and cause fires.
Cheaper anti-magic bombs help us in land and at sea. Cheaper longboats just help us at sea.
Also, RAM: What's the expense credit on Myark supposed to mean?
Yeah, but if we start using them on the general population, then they could recover some and easily reverse engineer them. If we revised them to explode after a duration instead of on a magic trigger (which means they're just exploding arrows not anti-magic arrows and can be used on their entire army), then I could get behind it. But as it stands, only our anti-mages need to use them so we don't have to make them cheaper. In other words, they only have so many mages, so we only need so many arrows.
Plus someone goaded the GM into making them not explode in anti-magic zones (which I personally disagree with as anti-magic zones are sustained by magic and thus any arrow that enters these zones should explode upon passing through the magical border that keeps other magic out), and since we already know they're looking into anti-magic, it would be pointless to waste it on something that will just be made obsolete.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 02:32:26 am
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Yeah, but if we start using them on the general population, then they could recover some and easily reverse engineer them
Reverse engineering is not a thing in this game.
No worry about that.
I agree with the rest of the argument.
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 02:35:44 am
QuoteYeah, but if we start using them on the general population, then they could recover some and easily reverse engineer them
Reverse engineering is not a thing in this game.
No worry about that.
Honestly I'm not to sure about that. I really doubt they could disrupt our crystal weapons unless they at least got ahold of some for testing. Its highly suspicious that our anti-magic doesn't dissolve them, but theirs does and over a much wider area.
Edit: Especially as we spent at least one revision stabilizing them.
Post by: RAM on April 28, 2017, 02:47:41 am
Also, RAM: What's the expense credit on Myark supposed to mean?I do not know. But it makes Myark more common, right? Maybe control a tower and shoot fireballs from it? Maybe he splits into two like a bacteria? Perhaps he gets those mountain magic cards he always wanted and the extra morale helps him fight... I started with the idea of more apprentices, then decided that just wasn't meta enough...
One reason I am avoiding longboats like the plague, is that we will hopefully be building a steamship next turn, so the longboats are about to be redundant. That and they already can't catch the enemy, so it is not going to win us the fight so much as play delaying tactics. I mean, sure, more boats means more encirclements and such, so it is not totally wasted, and they may well be planning a big push there, but they are still at least two turns from making a push and if we really strangle the jungle this turn then we can focus on the sea next.
All (antimagic bombs) do is inconvenience the enemy mages. It does nothing else. It's useless against normal infantry, against cavalry, and against their siege weaponry.They can counteract the aim bonus, presumably at greater than shortbow range. They probably counter the heroism wand, not that they are using it much. There may be some other buff spells that we don't know about. Bringing in more of them gives them numbers enough to allow us to block magic not just at the source, but also at the target...
If the enemy uses their wind spell, they're useless. If they improve their anti-magic, they're useless. If they get more shields, they're useless (if we don't know behind which shield the mage us hiding, we can't shoot it).They are effective against wind, wind deflects, bombs affect an area. It helps, but is no immunity. The antimagic would need to be permanent around their mages, which would render them useless, unless they were immune to their own antimagic AND could do something else while fielding enough to protect themselves. They can't cast at us without showing themselves, either they give up on antimagic, which means our fireballs are free to see how tough those shields really are(helpful hint: the wizard is behind the shield that cancels out the fireballs and is doing nothing other than that, there were common archers behind the shield-shaped craters in the ground) and can't use anything directed at our forces, or the front-lines for that matter.
The bombs shut down a mage long enough to make an attempt to deal with them. It is not perfect, but it helps a lot.
The enemy is attacking us from beyond our longbow range. Our anti-magic bombs can never reach them. We will not gain any benefit from themat sea.True enough, but we can disrupt counter-offensives with them as the enemy won't do much if they forgo everything except their boulders.
Extra ships could outflank them and cut them of, forcing them into fireball range.Agreed! But they are not exactly designed for agile flanking manoeuvres. I don't doubt that it would, indeed, help, but it doesn't seem that it would be vital in the immediate term nor best capitalising on the longship's strength.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 02:51:42 am
And the idea behind equipping our normal forces with it is simple: Overwhelming the enemy. Anti-magic bombs, if handled properly (and they will be handled properly, based on what Evicted said), will still work just as well as regular arrows against mundane enemy forces. But their effectiveness is drastically increased against enemy mages, which aren't exactly uncommon - see below - are greatly increased.
Quote from: Core Thread OP
At the start of the game, it is assumed that you can put out one wizard (probably an apprentice) per five squads, so spells will take effect accordingly.And it's a safe assumption that they'll have mages next to their ranged units in order to enchant the arrows or whatever it is they do, helping us greatly.
We don't have to worry about finding where their mages are because we wouldn't need to when all our forces are equipped with anti-magic bombs. You either shoot someone and it acts like an arrow, or you get a bonus and they explode in addition to being shot at, starting fires.
Again, I'd like to emphasize that managing forces equipped with cheap anti-magic bombs is explicitly not a problem.
We need to actually secure the jungle first. Worst case scenario is we lose the western sea this battle report, then we focus on winning it back for a bit. How would losing the western sea cause us to also lose our advantage in the jungle in the same thread? The anti-magic bombs probably won't help with the sea too much. So if they do help, then we don't lose the sea. If they don't, then we lose the sea.
But regardless: Like I said, losing the western sea is not the end of the world. With another design and/or revision for the steam engine we can greatly increase our effectiveness at sea without having to waste the expense credit on cheaper longboats.
And if people are set on using our expense credit to simply make longboats cheaper, I would like to point out that that's at most a stop-gap measure. At most. Cheaper longboats would help but it doesn't fix the core problem that we're just out-ranged.
@RAM who really needs to stop ninjaing my posts: I agree completely. Except for the Myark thing. I don't reaaally think that's how expense credits work. The longboat thing is a really good point, so I'll emphasize it too!
Longboats are about to be obsolete! We shouldn't bother making them cheaper or revising them when we're about to completely outclass them next design phase.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 02:59:54 am
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but they are still at least two turns from making a push and if we really strangle the jungle this turn then we can focus on the sea next.
Capture is imminent.
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We lose a few ships before Moskurg retreats, but it's not quite enough to force us to give up a section of coastline. Another year like this and we'll be forced to give up ground.
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They can counteract the aim bonus, presumably at greater than shortbow range
The enemy upgraded their bows to be equal to ours long ago.
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They probably counter the heroism wand, not that they are using it much
Al-mutriqa is out, so no hero wand.
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One reason I am avoiding longboats like the plague, is that we will hopefully be building a steamship next turn, so the longboats are about to be redundant
That steam ship is going to be bloody expensive. We will need other stuff to support it. They will not be obsolete, barring ridiculous rolls.
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True enough, but we can disrupt counter-offensives with them as the enemy won't do much if they forgo everything except their boulders
And that is enough to beat us back inch by inch.
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Agreed! But they are not exactly designed for agile flanking manoeuvres. I don't doubt that it would, indeed, help, but it doesn't seem that it would be vital in the immediate term nor best capitalising on the longship's strength.
It is. Being flanked by Sea in the Jungle will collapse our front.
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will still work just as well as regular arrows against mundane enemy forces
They use gemstone arrowheads. That can not punch through armor. Without explosion, you may as well be shooting nerf darts.
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ow would losing the western sea cause us to also lose our advantage in the jungle in the same thread
I'll look it up later, but controlling the Sea gives a big advantage to land combat.
Fluff wise, they may land enemy forces destroying our frost tower or supply lines.
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And if people are set on using our expense credit to simply make longboats cheaper, I would like to point out that that's at most a stop-gap measure. At most. Cheaper longboats would help but it doesn't fix the core problem that we're just out-ranged.
The arrows are no less of a stop gap measure, and don't even adress a problem.
We do not face arrow shortages. We need arrows only for mage hunters, and the mage hunters have all the arrows they need.
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 03:01:08 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 03:04:19 am
The design and combat reports both suggest anti-magic bombs are as effective as regular arrows.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 03:05:54 am
Do we know how our anti-magic arrows interact with Moskurgian anti-arrow wind spells?
Ebbor. Stop making things up.
The design and combat reports both suggest anti-magic bombs are as effective as regular arrows.
No they don't.
They only describe the arrows as used against mages, where they explode. Their normal effect is never mentioned, so we can only extrapolate from the fact it's made of Quartz. Not the worst arrow material, but worse than iron. Neolithic weaponry against modern armor is going to fail.
That said, this discussion is pointless, so before it starts.
GM : Do our anti-magic arrows work as well as normal iron/steel arrows against normal targets, where they will not explode?
Not that it matters. Instant logistics means our forces will use normal arrows as needed.
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 03:17:28 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 03:18:40 am
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 03:20:03 am
Not in a revision.
Not arguing that we can.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 03:24:13 am
We still don't know how their anti-magic stuff works, right? Because as far as I know, our anti-magic just "absorbs" magic, and since that's the same thing our anti-magic bombs use, so it makes since our charms stop our bombs. But I would assume their anti-magic fields are still based on magic. Evicted was somewhat vague when he said they didn't work with anti-magic, and I didn't see anything noting interactions between the bombs and their anti-magic in last combat report, so I guess we don't know?
I'm near 100% certain that Moskurgian anti-magic deactivates bombs. The GM wouldn't have been so menacing about it if it didn't.
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Again, I'd like to emphasize that managing forces equipped with cheap anti-magic bombs is explicitly not a problem.
It's nice if a design doesn't explicitedly sabotage ourselves, but it also has to be usefull.
Let's look at the events thst happenned.
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Their mages can't even cast to try and stop us as our Anti-Mage snipers are continuing to use their explosive arrows. They blast small holes in Moskurg barricades, and their mages are forced to stop casting and hunker down lest their cover be blown to shreds.
The arrows fully supress the enemy mages. What do you think more arrows is going to accomplish?
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 03:30:11 am
We still don't know how their anti-magic stuff works, right? Because as far as I know, our anti-magic just "absorbs" magic, and since that's the same thing our anti-magic bombs use, so it makes since our charms stop our bombs. But I would assume their anti-magic fields are still based on magic. Evicted was somewhat vague when he said they didn't work with anti-magic, and I didn't see anything noting interactions between the bombs and their anti-magic in last combat report, so I guess we don't know?
I'm near 100% certain that Moskurgian anti-magic deactivates bombs. The GM wouldn't have been so menacing about it if it didn't.
Yeah, I wonder why the GM was so frustrated.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 03:31:43 am
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 03:45:36 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 03:49:37 am
My point has always been that it would explode even within anti-magic fields. He argued the opposite, and he won.
In any case, the GM did say that people should stop talking about that, so I doubt you're endearing yourself now by bringing it up again and again.
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 03:52:42 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 04:01:26 am
We still don't know how their anti-magic stuff works, right? Because as far as I know, our anti-magic just "absorbs" magic, and since that's the same thing our anti-magic bombs use, so it makes since our charms stop our bombs. But I would assume their anti-magic fields are still based on magic. Evicted was somewhat vague when he said they didn't work with anti-magic, and I didn't see anything noting interactions between the bombs and their anti-magic in last combat report, so I guess we don't know?
I'm near 100% certain that Moskurgian anti-magic deactivates bombs. The GM wouldn't have been so menacing about it if it didn't.
Great evidence there.QuoteAgain, I'd like to emphasize that managing forces equipped with cheap anti-magic bombs is explicitly not a problem.
It's nice if a design doesn't explicitedly sabotage ourselves, but it also has to be
Has to be what? It doesn't hurt us to use it.
Let's look at the events thst happenned.QuoteTheir mages can't even cast to try and stop us as our Anti-Mage snipers are continuing to use their explosive arrows. They blast small holes in Moskurg barricades, and their mages are forced to stop casting and hunker down lest their cover be blown to shreds.
The arrows fully supress the enemy mages. What do you think more arrows is going to accomplish?
Oh, sorry. I didn't realize our single anti-mage unit was killing every mage. I should had realized all those spells they had were actually just complete coincidence. There's no way that the report was only talking about certain portion of their mages I mean, I'm sorry. I forgot that our tiny anti-mage unit rapid fires arrows at every single mage on the battlefield. Everyone knows every single event documented in the report is actually what happened 100% of the time, after all.
Bolded text mine because I'm on mobile and don't want to have to break up he quote.
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 04:11:35 am
ChiefWaffles, 10ebbor10
This is getting out of hand. Continue via pm's if you'd like, but unless you're strictly discussing what to do this design phase I want you to stop bickering. It's not constructive and I'm tired of seeing it.
So tired.
Post by: RAM on April 28, 2017, 04:13:37 am
Huh?Quotebut they are still at least two turns from making a push and if we really strangle the jungle this turn then we can focus on the sea next.
Capture is imminent.
I see
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Arstotzka gains the jungle. If they hold it next year, they may exploit it for resources.I think that, with Allmytreacle out, they will probably not retake ground in the Jungle, even though that catapult will stop breaking down this turn. So if the sea is about to fall then sure, I will put it into longboats, or wizards of some denomination... because losing the sea would legitimately be bad. But last I paid attention it was basically stalled at half-all and since then it was all a vague "we can't catch them, but they aren't doing much" standoff.
...
Neither side makes coastal gains in the Western Sea.
...
Western Jungle: 4/4 Arstotzka, 0/4 Moskurg
...
Western Sea: Disputed
A new though in favour of longboats is that they are(were? did we whine that to death? I think we probably whined it to death, not that I am complaining if we did. "bonus if you win but you can't win" is a really bitter thing to swallow if you don't know about it and immediately dump 50-odd revisions into boats to get your payday...) But we could revise them into slow, clumsy cargo chuggers while our warships have minimal crews and supplies...
the recurve bow, a shortbow that fires with the strength of a longbow, though not quite as much range. More importantly, its shorter profile means that it can be wielded effectively on horsebackI believe that the recurve bow has shorter range. Though I would certainly believe that the bombs re not as good as normal arrows, they don't seem blatantly incompetent though, so they should still be at least competitive.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 04:28:18 am
My problem is with Ebbor's apparent unrelenting hatred of anti-magic bombs. They're useful. You can see them being useful in the combat report. Thinking it's better to use the credit on longboats is one thing, but Ebbor has been constantly trying to say that their successes don't really count because of various silly reasons.
Please, Ebbor. Just accent that anti-magic bombs are useful. You don't have to love them. Just stop attacking them for existing please.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 04:33:37 am
Let's go by the facts.
Spoiler: Long (click to show/hide)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 04:34:52 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 04:38:58 am
I accidentally ninja edited you there, Ebbor. Not going to bother reading your post, but just letting you know.
Yeah, I know you don't, which is exactly why arguing with you is pointless.
You don't read the other side's point. You assume you know what point they're making, and attack that..
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 04:45:14 am
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revision
4 - (Chiefwaffles)Revise Large-scale Plant Growth: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, RAM, Tyrant
0 - (RAM)Refined Steam Engines:
0 - (RAM)Summon water:
1 -(10ebbor10) Anti Lucky strike charms
Credit
1 - (Chiefwaffles)Expense credit for Anti-magic bombs: Chiefwaffles
2 - (10ebbor10) Expense credit on longboats : 10ebbor10, Roboson
1 - (RAM) Myark: RAM
There, with that hopefully over, we can get back to discussion actual stuff.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 04:49:11 am
Being snide is not going to help, and it's exactly that behaviour that prevented a decent debate last time.
Let's go by the facts.QuoteGreat evidence there.
There are 4 good reasons to assume it does :
1) Occam's razor m
2) Precautionary principle
3) Menacing GM.
Your argument relies on hope that Moskurgian antimagic is both different and can not be easily revised, based on no evidence at all.
My argument is based on the fact that we have different anti-magic techniques and the only logical way for anti-magic bombs to not detonate is that the magic was "absorbed" in the same way as our charms. It's simple.
Caution suggests we don't make that assumption.QuoteHas to be what? It doesn't hurt us to use it.
Manipulating quotes to cut out words is dishonest.
And it does hurt us. It costs us a credit that we can use better.
I accidentally cut that out. But it's not like I cut out a critical point. I'll address it now. Cheap long boats have a small chance of letting us keep the sea disputed for one more phase when we don't need to.QuoteOh, sorry. I didn't realize our single anti-mage unit was killing every mage. I should had realized all those spells they had were actually just complete coincidence. There's no way that the report was only talking about certai portion of the mission. I mean, I'm sorry. I forgot that our tiny anti-mage unit rapid fires arrows at every single mage on the battlefield
Yes, it refers to the part of the mission where our archers are actually in range of the enemy mages.
At any other point, anti-magic arrows are useless.
You mean when our single anti-mage unit was in range of some of their mages. Look at the quote I included that you cut out. "Manipulating quotes to cut out words is dishonest." Mages are spread out. It's not like our anti-mage unit went into combat with their mage unit. That's not how battles work.QuoteThe melees have likewise increased in lethality. Before the combat even begins a two meter long spear falls out of the sky, impaling one of our commanders through his breastplate. As our men scramble for cover more fall from above, hitting with the same uncanny accuracy of Moskurg archers. We lose a significant number of mages and commanders before the battle even begins, but after a while the spears taper off and stop all together.
Beyond arrow range, enemy mages cast freely.QuoteAt medium range, however, the battle turns in our favor. Moskurg arrows are still utterly useless against Arstotzkan plate and gambeson, but our arrows and newer fireballs hit with devestating effect. It's as if every one of our mages was equipped with our original fireball spell, and each blast wipes out squads at a time. We have fewer mages here due to the earlier sniping, but they're still working to devestating effect. Their mages can't even cast to try and stop us as our Anti-Mage snipers are continuing to use their explosive arrows. They blast small holes in Moskurg barricades, and their mages are forced to stop casting and hunker down lest their cover be blown to shreds.
Mages disabled.
This suggests clearly arrows are used to saturation.
Like how this quote suggests they're used to saturation?
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He points out that if the antimagic bomb arrows were cheaper, our entire archer force could use them. Also, why do they need to require magic to activate? Why not give them a timer instead?
I'll stop defending my actions when you stop wrongly attacking them. I also like the "See! I stopped it! I'm the good guy thing!"
If you want to stop it, stop attacking. All I'm doing is defending my points.
EDIT: If you really care, please just PM me instead of posting it here. And yes. This is an edit.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 05:06:07 am
With that all said and done.
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revision
4 - (Chiefwaffles)Revise Large-scale Plant Growth: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, RAM, Tyrant
0 - (RAM)Refined Steam Engines:
0 - (RAM)Summon water:
1 -(10ebbor10) Anti Lucky strike charms
Credit
1 - (Chiefwaffles)Expense credit for Anti-magic bombs: Chiefwaffles
2 - (10ebbor10) Expense credit on longboats : 10ebbor10, Roboson
1 - (RAM) Myark: RAM
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 05:09:19 am
the suggestion to have more would be more useful when we can make them explode on impact or in flight, I feel. Right now, the benefit might be limited.
However, losing the sea now means we will have an harder time holding the jungle later. And having the jungle provides a great help to our navy, which will likely be quite expensive at first. SO, I think we need to use our expense there, or save it for next turn to use on the new ships we design.
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revision
4 - (Chiefwaffles)Revise Large-scale Plant Growth: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, RAM, Tyrant
1 - (RAM)Refined Steam Engines: Andrea
0 - (RAM)Summon water:
1 -(10ebbor10) Anti Lucky strike charms
Credit
1 - (Chiefwaffles)Expense credit for Anti-magic bombs: Chiefwaffles
2 - (10ebbor10) Expense credit on longboats : 10ebbor10, Roboson, Andrea
1 - (RAM) Myark: RAM
1 - (Andrea) Save for next turn ship: Andrea
Post by: RAM on April 28, 2017, 05:14:25 am
For our next topic, lets discuss the specifics of enemy antimagic. I want crystals back, to that end I should like something tailored to defeating their antimagic.
Saint very kindly gifted us this for free. No rolls nor waiting or anything!
Since this conceivably happened regardless, I'll go ahead and say you interviewed them.It does look very much like our own effect. The magic is just gone. But they are shooting it at a distance. There are no reports of the magic coming back either, as one would expect if it were a sudden magical compression that took it all and crunched it into an inaccessible lump. We convert the magic into sound, but they just "poof" it away.
- The crystal weapons vanished into aether, the way they normally would without proper magely maintainance.
- The wizards described attempting to cast magic in range of their ivory staffs as a similar feeling to when a child jumps up and down, hoping to fly. It just doesn't happen, no matter how badly they want it to.
I am now theorising that they are not satisfied with metagaming modern weather and fantastic electrical theorems, but are shooting into sci-fi for the large-scale generation of antiparticles. But without the boom? Antiparticles would definitely boom, they are too metagaming to let opposing particles not boom...
Antiparticles: magic/antimagic reactions neutralises the magic: no boom
Wish-granting: I impose my will upon that place and say thine zone shall be that of no-fun: our charms/bombs should work against the spell.
Explosion: all the magic went to the outside of a sphere and I am inside of it: The charms/bombs should tend to suck it back more quickly and hopefully someone would have noticed the gradual return of magic to the area.
Implosion: The magic is all next to me, instead of within me: It should explode quite quickly when it wears off, with a distinctively odd distribution.
Teleportation(overlap): Well sure, they can teleport magic now...
Teleportation(replacement): Not only that, but they can drain the magic from a spot and then teleport that. Or they are teleporting from outside of the magic region, so... space? Note that it only teleports magic so there is no material vacuum relocation.
Disruption: Magic went weird, I dunno how to make it work like this: Our wizard didn't notice anything like that, it was just gone, that means disrupting even the tiniest bits of magical manipulation like making your finger feel tingly...
Ooooh, andrea shiny
Quote
revision
4 - (Chiefwaffles)Revise Large-scale Plant Growth: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, RAM, Tyrant
1 - (RAM)Refined Steam Engines: Andrea
0 - (RAM)Summon water:
1 -(10ebbor10) Anti Lucky strike charms
Credit
1 - (Chiefwaffles)Expense credit for Anti-magic bombs: Chiefwaffles
2 - (10ebbor10) Expense credit on longboats : 10ebbor10, Roboson, Andrea
0 - (RAM) Myark:
2 - (Andrea) Save for next turn ship: Andrea, RAM
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 05:18:35 am
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SO, I think we need to use our expense there, or save it for next turn to use on the new ships we design
That is an interesting conundrum.
I would do it instantly, if I wasn't worried that something new next turn would postpone our steam vessel again.
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e. But they are shooting it at a distance
I thought it was anchored to a stick?
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 05:23:19 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 05:40:13 am
Quote
Revision
4 - (Chiefwaffles)Revise Large-scale Plant Growth: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, RAM, Tyrant
1 - (RAM)Refined Steam Engines: Andrea
0 - (RAM)Summon water:
1 -(10ebbor10) Anti Lucky strike charms 10ebbor10
Credit
1 - (Chiefwaffles)Expense credit for Anti-magic bombs: Chiefwaffles
2 - (10ebbor10) Expense credit on longboats : Roboson, Andrea
0 - (RAM) Myark:
3 - (Andrea) Save for next turn ship: Andrea, RAM, 10ebbor10
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 05:59:33 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 06:05:46 am
Post by: RAM on April 28, 2017, 06:18:52 am
And while the antimagic is anchored to a stick, it also disrupts our fireball casting from, well, somewhat close...
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On the offensive they'll get close with their ivory staffs and prevent our mages from smiting attacking Moskurgs with fireballs. A single Moskurg mage can stop several mages from casting at once, preventing us from wiping the floor with their troops.
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the lead rider holding aloft an ivory staff that snuffs out magic all around it.
Quote
The mages wielding staffs do their best to get in range of our wizards, and when they do our mages see fireballs fizzle out on their fingertips.It could be a radius around the staff, but it would have to be quite the huge radius to have their rather obvious ivory-staff wielding wizards charge into the fray. I mean, it could be, what, 12 metres they could get to before they die? I am picking the value at random but I cannot imagine our mages being that close to the front line if they can help it. Our mages are not primed for melee combat as far as I am aware. A 12 metre radius is huge, massively huge. It is a sustained effect that acts upon all magical potential in the area... I mean, sure, it could be a sphere, but... yikes... Or is it not sustained, and it just pops and then vanishes? It still seems unlikely that it is using the same principal as ours given that the crystals respond differently, but I suppose it could just be a matter of magnitude...
Post by: Azzuro on April 28, 2017, 06:50:04 am
Quote
Revision
5 - (Chiefwaffles)Revise Large-scale Plant Growth: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, RAM, Tyrant, Azzuro
1 - (RAM)Refined Steam Engines: Andrea
0 - (RAM)Summon water:
1 -(10ebbor10) Anti Lucky strike charms 10ebbor10
Credit
1 - (Chiefwaffles)Expense credit for Anti-magic bombs: Chiefwaffles
2 - (10ebbor10) Expense credit on longboats : Roboson, Andrea
0 - (RAM) Myark:
4 - (Andrea) Save for next turn ship: Andrea, RAM, 10ebbor10, Azzuro
Voting for plant growth revision, because I hate leaving stuff incomplete. And for saving the Expense Credit, because why spend it on longboats that are going to be obsolete next turn?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 08:00:26 am
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 28, 2017, 08:14:32 am
Quote
Revision
5 - (Chiefwaffles)Revise Large-scale Plant Growth: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, RAM, Tyrant, Azzuro, Stabby
1 - (RAM)Refined Steam Engines: Andrea
0 - (RAM)Summon water:
1 -(10ebbor10) Anti Lucky strike charms 10ebbor10
Credit
1 - (Chiefwaffles)Expense credit for Anti-magic bombs: Chiefwaffles
2 - (10ebbor10) Expense credit on longboats : Roboson, Andrea
0 - (RAM) Myark:
4 - (Andrea) Save for next turn ship: Andrea, RAM, 10ebbor10, Azzuro, Stabby
It's an issue if we want to use them against normal soldiers.Ebbor they are not a weapon for use againist regular soldiers. they are desgin to kill and stop MAGES who can wipe out entire Squads by themselves. If anything them not exploding in Anti-magic fields is a good thing since then their mages can't cast spells anyway and the bombs will still go off after the anti-magic field is lifted causing their mages to hide again.
Post by: Iituem on April 28, 2017, 08:46:23 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 09:23:18 am
Savin this expense credit seems like it could definitely work, though. But one day, out anti-magic bombs will blot out the sun.
Quote
Revision
5 - (Chiefwaffles)Revise Large-scale Plant Growth: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, RAM, Tyrant, Azzuro, Stabby
1 - (RAM)Refined Steam Engines: Andrea
0 - (RAM)Summon water:
1 -(10ebbor10) Anti Lucky strike charms 10ebbor10
Credit
0 - (Chiefwaffles)Expense credit for Anti-magic bombs: Chiefwaffles
2 - (10ebbor10) Expense credit on longboats : Roboson, Andrea
0 - (RAM) Myark:
5 - (Andrea) Save for next turn ship: Andrea, RAM, 10ebbor10, Azzuro, Stabby, Chiefwaffles
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 09:34:31 am
Quote
Ebbor they are not a weapon for use againist regular soldiers. they are desgin to kill and stop MAGES who can wipe out entire Squads by themselves.
The Moskurgian Mages actually aren't that deadly. They have their lightning spell, but it only works half the time (do we know why, actually?), but I don't recall any other direct combat spell.
But yeah, it was more of an argument against the first proposal (convert to timed bombs), than against the latter. It carried over when it shouldn't have.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 28, 2017, 09:48:20 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 10:13:20 am
Though the fact that the Jungle still has a Summer means that we must go colder.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 28, 2017, 10:14:23 am
and we probably should turn the jungle in more tundra Ebbor, we kinda need the wood for our navy.
Post by: OceanSoul on April 28, 2017, 10:18:10 am
Post by: evictedSaint on April 28, 2017, 10:23:34 am
Some adjustments to the dogwood wand allow us to now affect patches of land rather than specific plants. Oddly enough, the diameter of the patch is almost directly related to the casters height. Casting takes about a minute and the plants grow to adulthood in about a day. Plants are still limited to "low-level" plants like grasses, flowers, and weeds, but through some effort we also manage to make some thin, curly vines sprout. Because there needs to be an existing plant for the mages to cast on, we took the liberty of equiping these plant mages (referred to as "Dogwood Mages" by our men) with satchels containing a small supply of basic seeds they can sprinkle on the ground and cast upon. Cheap.
Post by: Azzuro on April 28, 2017, 10:57:50 am
Also, given Moskurg knows about the steam engine already, I'd like to keep this one secret as a card up our sleeve since it isn't combat-useful yet. Don't deploy the Dogwood Mages on the battlefield yet.
I believe 'save the Expense Credit for later' is currently in the lead, so unless anyone has orders to make (please don't) then that should be it for this turn.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 28, 2017, 11:08:35 am
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 28, 2017, 11:30:09 am
And I got a ship design of my own in mind, based off a real ship nonless that was pretty effective in real world history.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 11:55:21 am
This was going to be an action but I decided it's not really worth it in terms of clutter. Leaving it in this post for reference though.
Order: Create a unit comprised of tall but mostly inexperienced mages equipped with wands of plant growth and light escorts to change the formation and layout of battlefields during the night and between engagements. Call the unit "Combat Engineers". Actual combat should generally be avoided though. There should be numerous units to take avdvantage of the cheapness of wands.
I like this one much more, and it has potential for improvement. This can be done in an order though, right? Logically it feels it shoups since it's not like we're giving anyone elite training or anything.
EDIT: Alternative unit names:
Mageformers
Combat Mageforming
The "Combat Engineers" title is largely intended to convey that in the future we'll be able to add more functionality to the unit ultimately making them somewhat similar to tea combat engineers. And changing the landscape for the benefit of or side qualifies as combat engineering, right?
Quote
Orders
1 - (Chiefwaffles) Combat Engineers: Chiefwaffles
1 - (Azzuro) Don't deploy dogwood wands: Azzuro
EDIT:
Just saw Azzuro's thing order and added it to the list. People, PLEASE add your action to the list if you make one.
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 12:21:07 pm
Revision: Large Scale Plant Growth [4]
Some adjustments to the dogwood wand allow us to now affect patches of land rather than specific plants. Oddly enough, the diameter of the patch is almost directly related to the casters height. Casting takes about a minute and the plants grow to adulthood in about a day. Plants are still limited to "low-level" plants like grasses, flowers, and weeds, but through some effort we also manage to make some thin, curly vines sprout. Because there needs to be an existing plant for the mages to cast on, we took the liberty of equiping these plant mages (referred to as "Dogwood Mages" by our men) with satchels containing a small supply of basic seeds they can sprinkle on the ground and cast upon. Cheap.
I thought we are revising it to work on large plants, not a large area. Did I misunderstand the intention of the revision?
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 12:23:52 pm
Order: test climbing trees or other elevated places before using wand, to see if affected area is larger.
Quote
Orders
1 - (Chiefwaffles) Combat Engineers: Chiefwaffles
1 - (Azzuro) Don't deploy dogwood wands: Azzuro
1 - (Andrea) Test dogwood wands from trees or other elevated places
edit: @ Roboson Yes, we were trying to make trees, not wider area. to quote: "The Wand of Plant Growth/whatever its name is can be used to create thick foliage and trees (appropriate of a jungle). In addition to keeping the jungle alive and well, this can be used to block enemies, create cover, shield ourselves from view, and more."
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 12:27:28 pm
We get a 4 and all it does is grow grass and thin vines? I must have misread he revision report because I thought it was more then that.
Evicted: Is this intentional, or did you misread he request, or did o mess up the request? ( pretty sure I didn't. )
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 12:31:35 pm
Quote
Order: Create a unit comprised of tall but mostly inexperienced mages equipped with wands of plant growth and light escorts to change the formation and layout of battlefields during the night and between engagements. Call the unit "Combat Engineers". Actual combat should generally be avoided though. There should be numerous units to take avdvantage of the cheapness of wands.
Remember, orders roll at disadvantage. You may not run the risk of this going wrong, somehow.
In any case, this turn is a complete and utter bust. We have not gained a single thing with any military utility.
I hope that teaches people lessons about not starting new and untested projects to deal with short term concerns while we already have long term projects in the pipeline.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 12:32:12 pm
Revise: Large-scale Plant Growth - The Wand of Plant Growth/whatever its name is can be used to create thick foliage and trees (appropriate of a jungle). In addition to keeping the jungle alive and well, this can be used to block enemies, create cover, shield ourselves from view, and more.
Revision: Large Scale Plant Growth [4]
Some adjustments to the dogwood wand allow us to now affect patches of land rather than specific plants. Oddly enough, the diameter of the patch is almost directly related to the casters height. Casting takes about a minute and the plants grow to adulthood in about a day. Plants are still limited to "low-level" plants like grasses, flowers, and weeds, but through some effort we also manage to make some thin, curly vines sprout. Because there needs to be an existing plant for the mages to cast on, we took the liberty of equiping these plant mages (referred to as "Dogwood Mages" by our men) with satchels containing a small supply of basic seeds they can sprinkle on the ground and cast upon. Cheap.
Something seems wrong here.
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 12:33:36 pm
on a more serious note, what do you think about planting fields of stinging nettle and similar poisonous, hurting, thorny weeds ?
we might also want to exploit this for civilian use at some point, feeding the population better is an advantage. Plus, we can probably replicate the plains bonus to horses by having intensive farming of hay ( we are getting quite industrial)
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 28, 2017, 12:36:10 pm
Waitwaitwaitwait, hold on a second. We were revising it to grow bigger things, not affect different areas.
We get a 4 and all it does is grow grass and thin vines? I must have misread he revision report because I thought it was more then that.
Evicted: Is this intentional, or did you misread he request, or did o mess up the request? ( pretty sure I didn't. )
We are working on an entirely new form of magic here and we got not only a wide area spell but very small progress on vines. A 6 would probably have had us growing trees but we did not get a 6.
This is why 10ebbor10 was against making an entirely new form of magic.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 28, 2017, 12:38:40 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 12:39:47 pm
Quote
We have some experience bringing life into the world - primarily through wasps, but it's experience nonetheless. As it turns out, making things grow is pretty dang easy compared to spewing blood-thirsty wasps out of your fingertips.
The spell is cast through a wand of fresh-cut dogwood, still green and sticky with sap. It requires rather precise cutting, engraving, and enchantment before it can be used, but dogwood trees are common and a mage could produce a wand a day, given the time and motivation. The downside is that the wands only last a couple days before they dry out and stop working, but that's not a big issue due to the relative ease of production.
The effect is currently constrained to what our mathemagicians refer to as "low-level" plants - grasses, weeds, wildflowers, plants of that nature. Each plant must be enchanted one at a time, with each enchantment taking a couple minutes to perform, but once enchanted the plant can grow from a sproutling to full adulthood over the course of single day. Aside from the eventual combat applications, our researchers are excited as to how this spell can be used in civilian life. Poor harvests may one day be a thing of the past, and we will never want for wood to keep our homes warm at night. Imagine growing tropical fruits in the dry, cold tundra of our homelands. Oranges and pears for breakfast and dinner every day, rose gardens lining every road in Arstotzka, full granaries of wheat and corn every autumn - our King seems particularly pleased with the direction of our research. It still needs a bit of work, but our current progress is very promising.
So, let's see. What did the improvement improve.
Low level plants -> Low level plants
Single plant -> Multiple plans
Couple Minutes -> Minute
Day -> Day
Based on rate of progress, I guess this will still need 1 well rolled design or 2-3 revisions to get it fixed.
Edit : Comparison outdated, recalculating
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 12:40:30 pm
trying to use known magic to push them out of the jungle might have worked better and saved the jungle anyway. But what is done is done, we work with what we have.
anyway, stinging nettle fields and thorns might be able to substitute our caltrops in breaking charges, although they can't be deployed quickly and tactically like caltrops.
edit: ah, nevermind. No stinging nettle fields anymore, but maybe we get to keep tree coverage. Although I am very worried about their ballistas. Kind of regret not taking the time to vote for the mist before going to sleep.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 28, 2017, 12:48:17 pm
Some adjustments to the dogwood wand allow us to now increase the effect of growth beyond low-tier plants. A mage can produce a shrub that reaches to mid-thigh, and a skilled mage can grow a sapling to his own height.
Perhaps most pleasing is that we can now grow basic crops - an experienced mage can grow a stalk of corn or wheat, although doing so one at a time is rather tedius. Casting takes between five and twenty minutes depending on the plant and the plants grow to adulthood in about a day. Because there needs to be an existing plant for the mages to cast on, we took the liberty of equiping these plant mages (referred to as "Dogwood Mages" by our men) with satchels containing a small supply of basic seeds they can sprinkle on the ground and cast upon.
Due to the time needed to generate plant growth, these mages will be used defensively to terraform emplacements and provide what cover they can. Cheap.
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 12:52:54 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 12:56:31 pm
Low level plants -> Mediocre shrubberies
Single plant -> single plant
Couple Minutes -> 5-20 minutes
Day -> Day
Now, let's hope Moskurgians decided to do something useless, because we have barely improved anything.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 28, 2017, 01:09:05 pm
Or bigger fireballs, I will always vote for larger fire.
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 01:12:19 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 01:13:30 pm
In addition, I'm hesitant in investing further into crystals. It's something that is not that useful given our metal bonus, and it has already been countered by the enemy.
But yeah, no more more branching of. One long term project is already too many, and now we have two.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 28, 2017, 01:13:51 pm
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 28, 2017, 01:18:30 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 01:23:56 pm
Make civil service part of the education program at our mage academy. Require all mages who go through the academy to spend one day a month growing crops for our soldiers and civilians. This will allow them to get acquainted with plant magic and aid in the war effort from a distance.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 02:34:55 pm
Orders roll at a disadvantage, and if they fail they will actively harm our war effort. Do we want to run the risk of disrupting our harvests/ magic units for just a few tiny bits of extra food?
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 28, 2017, 02:42:05 pm
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 02:43:08 pm
Quote
Orders
-1 - Civil service (Robson) - +Robson, -Ebbor, -Andrea
The only order I would like to give is to sprout thorns to break up formations, but I don't think we need to tell that to our mages?
Post by: evictedSaint on April 28, 2017, 02:44:28 pm
Edit: I take it the concensus is to hold onto the expense credit?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 02:46:32 pm
Quote
Credit
0 - (Chiefwaffles)Expense credit for Anti-magic bombs: Chiefwaffles
2 - (10ebbor10) Expense credit on longboats : Roboson, Andrea
0 - (RAM) Myark:
5 - (Andrea) Save for next turn ship: Andrea, RAM, 10ebbor10, Azzuro, Stabby, Chiefwaffles
This was the latest post.
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 02:49:18 pm
Remember people, orders are not free.
Orders roll at a disadvantage, and if they fail they will actively harm our war effort. Do we want to run the risk of disrupting our harvests/ magic units for just a few tiny bits of extra food?
Our magic academy isn't really contributing to the war effort right now. It's not even listed in our equipment/units section. As far as orders go, this is one of the least risky ones as it doesn't involve our war effort mages and the magic academy is under our jurisdiction, not the army's. Unless we're getting some invisible bonus from the academy, I see no reason to not try and get something out of it. Especially if a few dozen or so apprentices in training can grow an entire field of corn or some other crop in a single day.
That does seem to be the case.QuoteCredit
0 - (Chiefwaffles)Expense credit for Anti-magic bombs: Chiefwaffles
2 - (10ebbor10) Expense credit on longboats :, Andrea
0 - (RAM) Myark:
6 - (Andrea) Save for next turn ship: Andrea, RAM, 10ebbor10, Azzuro, Stabby, Chiefwaffles, Roboson
This was the latest post.
Yeah, hold it is best.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 28, 2017, 02:51:30 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 02:55:49 pm
Because if undergrads can cast it, I think practical application of magic would be a wonderful addition to the curriculum :P
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 02:56:41 pm
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 28, 2017, 02:58:52 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 03:01:51 pm
Not that I think it's a bad idea now. I still support it and think others should. Being able to change the battlefield to our advantage would be a nice thing to have and worth the risk, even with the current state of the dogwood wand.
I'm assuming the default use for the dogwood wand is widespread deployment, use for general regrette of the forest and use as limited cover/hiding.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 03:02:32 pm
We're going to get hammered badly, since we have created nothing of military value this turn, and unlike Moskurg, we have no failing computer program to ignore that for us.
Quote
Being able to change the battlefield to our advantage would be a nice thing to have and worth the risk, even with the current state of the dogwood wand.
If you want to change the battlefield, you can simply give our men a shovel. It'll be far more effective.
Remember, it takes 20 minutes per plant to cast, and then the plant takes 24 hours to grow. And all you get is a shrubbery just as tall as you are.
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 03:04:13 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 03:04:51 pm
Yeah. I'm not going to push for the combat engineers thing particularly If it doesn't go through then I'll just bring them up later as a design or revision at some point when plant growth is more effective.
Not that I think it's a bad idea now. I still support it and think others should. Being able to change the battlefield to our advantage would be a nice thing to have and worth the risk, even with the current state of the dogwood wand.
I'm assuming the default use for the dogwood wand is widespread deployment, use for general regrette of the forest and use as limited cover/hiding.
It was my understanding that it would mostly be used before fighting began to strengthen our positions. As we hold the entire jungle now, we only have to hold our positions, not try to advance. So we can line the area with briers and dense undergrowth during the year so that when the time for fighting arrives, we've already sculpted the battlefield to our advantage.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 03:08:42 pm
We're barely advancing in the Jungle, where we have all the advantages. In the desert, where the Moskurgians get open terrain, heat and naval support we are going to lose.
No point in throwing away forces. (And I sure as hell don't want to deplete garisson of the mountains. Losing abundant plate would be devastating).
Quote
It was my understanding that it would mostly be used before fighting began to strengthen our positions. As we hold the entire jungle now, we only have to hold our positions, not try to advance. So we can line the area with briers and dense undergrowth during the year so that when the time for fighting arrives, we've already sculpted the battlefield to our advantage.
Here our freezing sabotages us. Whatever plants we create will likely die before the fighting occurs.
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 03:11:15 pm
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 28, 2017, 03:11:24 pm
And. No to attacking the desert. We need logistics over haul there and way better units and naval support.
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 03:14:35 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 03:15:09 pm
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 03:16:01 pm
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 28, 2017, 03:17:34 pm
Post by: RAM on April 28, 2017, 03:34:22 pm
Order:Operation Mountain Fortress
Our forces in the mountain begin planting forests at the approaches from Moskurg, especially in mountain passes and open fields. And seriously try to have someone competent at logistics running the show. We can just cut our way through again if we block the wrong corridor, but it is still a hassle...
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 03:42:44 pm
These are the kind of plants we have for our defenses. It takes 20 minutes to plant one, and then 24 hours to grow.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
That is not going to stop a speeding ballista bold, a moskurgian charge or your average rodent.
Our best hope is to plant something like deadly nightshade and have all the Moskurgians poison themselves by eating the berries.
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 03:44:36 pm
all they can do right now is hopefully break charges and formations.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 28, 2017, 03:45:48 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 03:46:58 pm
New research => Not usefull within 2 turns.
I hope everyone can remember that, so that on the next turn people don't go off chasing the next shiny thing.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 28, 2017, 03:48:47 pm
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 03:57:49 pm
Or mundane huge wood shields on wheels, to shield our commanders.
Steam tanks if we wished to be ridiculous.
The huge scale obscuring could have helped as well, if we pulled off the making it stop magical detection part.
Many things could have worked, and many of them more plausible that just starting conjuring force fields strong enough to stop ballista in one turn.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 04:00:21 pm
We could have :
- Build our own (conventional) siege engine
- Designed a decent metallic lance
- Designed a better metal weapon
- Designed a better shield
- Build a faster ship
- Gotten the Steam ship working
- Given our forces a shovel to build fortifications
- Improved our anti-magic charms
- Created a new creature summon spell
- Upgraded our frost tower
- Fixed the crystals
- Improved the firewall
All of those would have done something. None would have done everything, but nothing can do that.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 28, 2017, 04:10:34 pm
I do think steam engine should be researched. Problem is the ship size, which my future design will fix.
I do agree with shield though.
And creature summon? Why has it not been suggested except now? I do not want to conjure new creatures, I want them grown ( future branch of this pet project if it continues, which is unlikely)
And lastly we had ideas to anchor the crystal weapons. No one decided to make it work.
I apologize. Have no more right to say in the matter. Let's see how it goes.
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 04:14:05 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 04:18:18 pm
We don't literally fight just 1 battle per year. There's no down time or preparation time.
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 04:40:59 pm
It's my understanding that the battles are an abstraction.
We don't literally fight just 1 battle per year. There's no down time or preparation time.
Yeah, I didn't say we only fight once. I know there are multiple fights, but there is still immense down time between them.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 28, 2017, 05:02:36 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 28, 2017, 05:07:29 pm
Post by: RAM on April 28, 2017, 05:08:14 pm
It is, perhaps, more importantly a means towards terraforming. Before the devastation of the jungle we did not know that terrain could be changed, now we do. It was used against us because we favoured a fragile environment and now we shall fight back.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 05:19:05 pm
100%
No way that wouldn't good idea.
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 05:23:16 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 05:24:53 pm
You see
We get earthforming
no more sea
Problem solved
Forever
Thanks to my genius
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 28, 2017, 05:32:57 pm
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 05:33:15 pm
lets rise a new atlantis from the sea.
Nothing can go wrong!
Team earthforming go!
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 05:53:46 pm
Spoiler: Rough Draft of Magic Firearms (click to show/hide)
I was thinking about it earlier and drew up a rough draft for a fireball powered cannon. I mostly did this for fun and to toss the idea into the mix. I'm not really proposing it as an option, mostly just sharing it as part of the brainstorming process (so no need to attack it if you hate it).
The first one is fairly straightforward, you cast fireball into the wide opening at the rear, the cannon directs and pressurizes it until it reaches a chamber filled with ammunition. The force of the explosion is transferred to the projectile and it is launched through the air with force.
The second one is basically the same concept, but involves some technology that we will likely never invent (but I'm going to explain it anyhow). Basically the red section is a fireball spell inscripted on two interlocking blocks within the cannon. When the two blocks connect they complete the spell (the black circle) thus activating it and creating a small explosion. This launches the projectile like a normal cannon. This would require a few turns to invent, and its likely we will never do so.
However, the interlocking explosive spell inscription can be scaled down for use in land and sea mines, explosive arrows, and as a replacement for gunpowder in guns. If anything, that may be the most useful design on this sheet. I basically wanted a magical equivalent to gunpowder, and after some thinking, this seemed like a pretty decent replacement given our current technology and magical ability.
Edit: Oh yeah, it may be important to explain why we'd want a fireball powered cannon over just straight fireballs. Long story short, it would give us increased range, which we seem to need in the ocean and to counter their seige weapons.
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 05:59:08 pm
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 28, 2017, 06:00:17 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 06:02:05 pm
We have the anti-magic bombs, dogwood wands, and steam engine. All three have tons of potential but are, at this point, all at primitive states.
Just pointing this out, but I don't have an exact idea for what to do yet. Steam-based projectile launchers would be a great direction but the question is how much time do we have to invest to get them actually useful? We need to find some kind of midway design that's immediately effective by itself without further iterations and serves as a bridge to better designs.
Magic firearms could work, but if I had to guess I'd say they won't be that useful the first time around unless we get a 6.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 28, 2017, 06:04:01 pm
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 06:06:24 pm
I believe we could get one working in a turn if we tries. We already managed to launch the rotor of our early engines quite a distance away, we just need to do that on purpose. But for now, we should close some loose ends. First thing, I would say perfecting our turbine ( and by perfecting I mean making it work better than equivalent rowers) and using it. Then either one of the 2, although the dogwood one can be improved to our needs by revisions, I believe.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 28, 2017, 06:08:46 pm
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 06:10:12 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 06:11:42 pm
awww, no love for steam cannons?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Revised steam version.
Once again, just throwing ideas out there. Given what we know about steam and fire, it could theoretically be done in a turn.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 28, 2017, 06:12:46 pm
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 06:15:15 pm
Steam cannon also provides a stepping stone toward steam rifles, which are a totally sensible idea.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 06:20:03 pm
1.) Get the steam engine to a useful state. I'd guess this would take 2 designs/revisions.
2.) Design the steam cannon and iterate it until it's useful.
That's at least 3 design/revisions if everything goes right. We can't really afford to spend that time. I think we need to produce things with immediate benefits next design+revision phase. It all depends on how next battle goes, though. Though lately it's been a pattern of them chipping away at our advantage. I'm not too worried about losing claim of the jungle next battle report but if it continues at this pace they'll be in the jungle again very soon. Actual steam cannons definitely would be extremely useful, but in my eyes not useful enough to justify the time spent on them.
Personally, I think steam cannons should wait until we have actually functional steam-based propulsion and are confident we can spend a few turns without immediately useful designs and not lose anything too drastically.
My very rough idea for an order of operations:
1.) Create/revise an effective long-ranged projectile.
1a.) Basic magic cannon (If I'm reading Roboson's magic cannon thing right, this should be pretty simple. Pressure/funnel/etc. to increase range of fireballs and similar spells.)
1b.) Hybrid magic cannon (The idea is to use steam and fireballs to make more "pressurized" fireballs and very notable range improvements. Could be a stupid idea, but if 1a works this could be at evision.)
1c.) Reverse-charm Magic Cannon (More of an alternative option to 1b - the idea here is that it uses a "reversed" anti-magic charm to amplify the fireball instead of absorbing it. Could potentially in super distant future be extended to automatic-summoning fireballs. FIREBALL MACHINE CANNON. Probably way too hard for step 1 though.)
2.) Steam propulsion fitted onto boats
3.) Full steam/magic cannons.
And @Andrea: Steam rifles are a very long ways away. We'd have to completely perfect steam technology then spend lots of time on the rifle, then hope it isn't just outclassed by having cheap apprentices with cheap fireballs.
6 posts have been made while I wrote this.
Sigh.
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 06:25:47 pm
The thing about the cannons, including the steam cannon, is that it condenses the force. So a fireball that can destroy a big area can be condensed down into a smaller area for a much greater force. That's basically the premise of all cannons. If you just light some black powder, it explodes in a wide area, but if you compact it in such a way that the force can only go one direction, it amplifies the force by containing it and directing it in a single direction.
Think just fire ball would be better. Less advanced, more to point.
I agree. If its enough to incinerate squads at a time, its enough to fire a cannonball. And its simple enough to get a prototype in one turn. But if I'm being honest here, it's would probably require the revision in addition to the design despite have 0 to 1 moving parts. However, they were invented by the Chinese in the 12th century (and came to Europe about a century later) and so are well within the era this game takes place in.
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 06:26:27 pm
I don't think we are 2 designs and 2 revisions to get the steam engine useful, more like one design and one revision. Last thing missing to have it be better than rowers is better sizing of the turbine.
Steam rifles are not a serious proposal. they are a far future dream, but they require so many innovations that we can't hope to do anything useful with that idea in the short or mid term.
edit: about the fireball cannon, I owuld like to know exactly the mechanism in which fireball operates. gunpowder works because its combustion turns a solid into a lot of hot gas, icnreasing pressure quickly and enormously. Depending on the working of the fireball, it may not be able to produce much thrust even when confined. It incinerates enemy squads, but you just need heat for that not an explosion. (note: heat would still expand the air and provide some pressure.). Of course, I am not saying it won't work, but we should ask the GM if the fireball is actually explosive or if it is just a ball of hot gas that spreads on impact or something.
In case it does properly explode, fireball cannon could work I guess.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 06:29:10 pm
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 06:31:54 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 06:32:58 pm
Order:Operation Mountain Fortress
Our forces in the mountain begin planting forests at the approaches from Moskurg, especially in mountain passes and open fields. And seriously try to have someone competent at logistics running the show. We can just cut our way through again if we block the wrong corridor, but it is still a hassle...
+1. I'm for using the plant magic in all theaters to impede the enemy's ability to advance.
the only part of the steam engine we need for the cannon is the boiler, which is already working perfectly.
Cannons are a lot easier than steam engines which require precising timing and temperature control and all sorts of things. A cannon has very few moving parts and can be done with relative ease, especially since we have everything we need to be able to design them (plus the metal bonus). Depending on how combat goes, it could go either way as to which we need to build first.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 06:34:31 pm
Evicted: Any chance that you'd mind telling us how "new" steam-based cannons would be? EDIT: What about magic cannons?
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 06:37:17 pm
Wel, I wonder then.
Evicted: Mind telling us how "new" steam-based cannons would be?
For the record, I'm more for straight fireball cannons over steam powered cannons. I think the steam would complicate things, and may be better as a revision if need be.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 28, 2017, 06:39:06 pm
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 06:44:10 pm
There must be something in Italy that causes the idea of steam cannons to pop up.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 28, 2017, 06:46:16 pm
Our Dogwood Mages spend nearly every waking hour cluttering the soon-to-be field of battle. Saplings sprout in dense clusters, and all manner of brambles, thorns, and vines spot the ground between the trees that make up what's left of the jungle. It should prevent Moskurg from using their formation bonus to full effect, but only to a limited degree. The war has been hard on the delicate ecosystem; trees are splintered by lightning strikes, charred by fireballs, and cut to stumps for fortifications. The cold has killed off most of the natural undergrowth, but our Dogwoods make up what they can. It's not nearly as much as had been devastated, but the ground isn't uniformly bare any more.
Nothing much has changed during skirmishes; their men still shiver in the cold when we charge into their camps and snipe their men, and our men still scramble when Moskurg horse archers ride through spewing arrows.
As always, our assault makes heavy use of fireballs. We make our way through the semi-bare land, only for their spears to start raining from the heavens again. Plate armor can't stop an arrow from God, so one of our commanders ends up pinned to the ground by the shaft of wood. They aren't terribly frequent, thankfully, but unlike last year they don't taper off and stop. They keep coming, sniping our mages and our commanders with that same damn accuracy. By the time we get to their lines we can see them; ballistas, made of wood and animal sinews. They hurriedly wheel the contraptions out of range as we draw closer, stopping to spit stone shot into our troops. It's clear now what we're fighting; artillery. Our men are disheartened by the raining death that not even their fantastic armor will stop, but they charge on like the brave soldiers they are. We have only a few mages and apprentices left, but when they're in range they cast their fire with fabulous effect. Our archers begin their volleys as well, but we're shocked to find Moskurg soldiers don't wither before our arrow fire like before. Many die, but more than a couple manage to shrug off the heavy ashwood shafts. When our melee troops reach their lines the reason becomes clear; their painted, flexible armor no longer shields just their commanders and mages but their entire force as well. Both we and the enemy attempt to get our calvary into play, but they're used to limited effect and neither side has the advantage. For the ground forces, their halberds are just as effective as their new armor, managing to punch through the weaker sections of our plate armor. They work in tandem; one soldiers will grab an Arstotzkan fighter with his hook and the other will carefully line up the killing blow. Our armor is superior to theirs in terms of protection and our troops are more highly trained, but we've had to march through artillery fire to meet them. The fighting is relatively even, but we might have pulled ahead had their cursed wizards and their ivory staffs snuffed out the magic of our mages. Giant glowing fields extend outwards from their lines and envelop what's left of our wizards, once more causing magic to fizzle on their fingertips. Our mage-hunters do their best to kill the casters, but their anti-magic bomb arrows fail to detonate once inside the glowing field and thud harmlessly into their tall wooden shields. With equal troops, limited commanders, and no effective mages, our forces are forced to pull back to our fortifications.
Moskurg doesn't advance on our emplacements - not right away, at least. Their artillery sends deadly accurate javelins and stone shot into our troops all day long. They snipe us to death at great range, and when we're forced to sally forth and destroy the siege weaponry the same battle occurs. Our mages can't cast, our anti-mages can't kill, and our men are slaughtered. With great reluctance, our Theatre Commander pulls back and cedes the ground to Moskurg.
Our Theatre Commander demands fireballs that can match Moskurg in range. They're holding us at a distance and pelting us with sticks and stones! Our fireballs are far more effective than a Moskurg rock; if we had the same range we would clearly win every time. It would also solve the issue of their anti-magic preventing our mages from casting. Whether you must design new artillery or upgrade an existing spell, we need something to match the Moskurgs in range. As for the plant growth, he points out that it needs more power - being able to sprout a line of trees for cover would be invaluable, and giant walking trees that could wade through helpless Moskurg soldiers would be a dream come true. But - and he stresses this - we need artillery first.
Moskurg gains a section of jungle.
Their artillery is equally devastating on the high seas. We can't catch them or match them for range, so they slowly chip our ships to death. We pull back, ceding a section of coastline to the enemy.
Our Theatre Commander tenders his resignation at the insistence of many members of the design team and will be replaced by a more competent Commander next year.
Moskurg gains a section of coastline in the Western Sea.
Revision Credit!!! Foreigners land on our shores. They are dark skinned and clad in simple garments of rough cotton and furs, and their accent is thick and difficult to understand. They approach our king and beg for assistance. It seems they are from across the ocean from a small country in a hot desert land and their home is under attack by invaders. They are a poor people, and in their desperate search for mercenaries to help them hold their land they come to Forenia. They cannot afford to pay for mercenary services, but if we help them them offer the wisdom of their mystic, an old man by the name of Barbushe. Because Moskurg and Arstotzka are unwilling to cooperate, they will go with whichever nation can offer more troops, weapons, and other equipment to help them beat back the invaders.
Whatever troops we send will be unable to fight for our nation next year, and may not return if the fight goes poorly. Yet their offer is enticing, as their mystic seems knowledgeable and may offer more insight into magic.
What should we bid?
It is 928, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 928 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Post by: RAM on April 28, 2017, 06:50:16 pm
Steam-cannons at least have the advantage of saving power up over a long time. They let you concentrate your efforts into a single devastating volley. Or something so massive that you could never normally project it. Like... We could build a hundreds-of-metres long steam-cannon into the side of a mountain with which to bombard the kegger's capital, Kegstonedia, with giant antimagic crystals so as to drain the magical affinity from their population...
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 28, 2017, 06:52:25 pm
Well ninj'd by the GM anyway we need artillery of our own or something to destroy theirs like termites or long ranged fireballs.
Of we are going to develop cannons we might as well make blackpowder it was discover around now in China so it's not far fetched.
Also a steam cannon would be vastly better then a fireball cannon simply since the fireball couldn't get enough pressure behind it due to it's nature.
Post by: andrea on April 28, 2017, 06:54:39 pm
I like the latter, but am open to both. if nobody writes proposals, for them by tomorrow when I wake up, I'll write them myself.
edit: @stabby come on, black powder? that is so... mundane!
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 06:56:49 pm
- We need a way to fix their unrelenting accuracy.
- We need a way to pierce their new armor
- We need better defense against their halberds
- We need a way to circumvent their anti-magic.
- Low priority: Better dogwood wands. Note to self: Look into even larger-scale, faster growth, and/or ents.
Therefore, I introduce a new design:
Hybrid Fireball Cannon
A very expensive contraption that utilizes existing steam technology to create immense pressure in its chamber. One of the mages manning it summons a fireball in the firing compartment, and it'll fire at its target with extreme range and velocity. Designed to be set-up behind the frontlines in more secluded places manned by a small crew and guard, similar to a trebuchet. In the seas, it will be placed on a small number of ships that fire upon the enemy from afar.
This could change the tides! Potentially outmatching their own artillery, expanding the effectiveness of our fireballs land and sea, and circumventing their anti-magic by being completely out of range of the stuff.
Quote
Designs
1 - (Chiefwaffles) Hybrid Fireball Cannon: Chiefwaffles
Post by: evictedSaint on April 28, 2017, 06:59:30 pm
we should ask the GM if the fireball is actually explosive or if it is just a ball of hot gas that spreads on impact or something.
Don't get too caught up on specifics. Don't forget that it's all dice and judgement behind the scenes of designs and revisions.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 28, 2017, 07:02:56 pm
Tower of Fog the tower of dog based off our both our tower of frost and fog spells to create a thick fog enchanted in a way so that our troops can sense each other and the enemy.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 07:06:22 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 28, 2017, 07:07:21 pm
Tower of Fog the tower of dog based off our both our tower of frost and fog spells to create a thick fog enchanted in a way so that our troops can sense each other and the enemy.
Out of curiosity, do you guys even read the Theatre Commander reports?
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 28, 2017, 07:14:35 pm
What's a report? And how do you read?Tower of Fog the tower of dog based off our both our tower of frost and fog spells to create a thick fog enchanted in a way so that our troops can sense each other and the enemy.
Out of curiosity, do you guys even read the Theatre Commander reports?
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 07:31:10 pm
I'd prefer to use the design phase on a cannon and then revise whatever we think we need. It would be dangerous to wait and risk rolling poorly on revision.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 07:34:12 pm
(pls vote for Hybrid Fireball Cannon)
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 28, 2017, 07:37:22 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 07:49:25 pm
..What? We have one design submitted right now and it's a cannon. We don't need to worry about what to revise at the moment because we don't know how the cannon is going to turn out. Hopefully it gets all 6s and is amazing and we can use the revision for something else, and maybe not.
(pls vote for Hybrid Fireball Cannon)
I'm saying its a bad idea to not go with the cannon, because if we just revised to long range fireballs, we wouldn't be able to save it if it went wrong. I'm in agreement with you.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 07:52:09 pm
Quote
Designs
3 - (Chiefwaffles) Hybrid Fireball Cannon: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, Stabby
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 28, 2017, 08:17:27 pm
Quote
Designs[/quote]
4/b] - (Chiefwaffles) Hybrid Fireball Cannon: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, Stabby, Tyrant
We need big guns! And we can revise it with time. Also think should launch shells that explode. As we do not have magic guidance system.
Post by: RAM on April 28, 2017, 08:28:42 pm
How do those glowing fields of antimagic work? What is the range on them?
Are they spheres, clouds, freeform, beams?
Do the mages producing them remain in the effect or does it exclude them?
Did they use other magic from within it?
Did the glowy fields intrude into area protected by our antimagic charms?
They were glowing so this should be fairly obvious stuff...
Whoever sends more troops/equipment/whatever wins a revision? And Moskurg has quantity versus our quality? Should we bother or just wait to see half a million enemy cavalry march off on boats...
Our cavalry is not doing much and our mid-level wizards don't seem that important. The apprentices can do most stuff and there are more of them.
Can we at least confirm that the jungle is safe now?
You know, if we feel crazy, we could switch to loincloths and turn the tower of frost up to the microwave setting(it IS adjustable, and no word on the limits of that...). Forest likes it, the lightning is mysteriously less effective, their stuff is all anti-armour now and they have that roasty new armour they just spread to everyone, those massive nests of sinew and rope they are ballistaing(How on earth does a ballista shoot a big rock at a ship? Did they at least spend a revision on their rock-capsules?) with will warp under the heat and go limp and useless... It'll only work for the one turn then back to business as usual, but it seems kind of plausible.
How big exactly are these ballistae that they are effective against fortified jungle camps? Jungles are, well, they have large trees. Large trees are sturdy. Yes, a ballista can destroy one, eventually, but they will run out of bolts before we run out of trees...
Communual spell: The living wall!
Blah blah blah: we mathemagically analyse fire wasp spell and extract the "life" and add it to a crystal wall.
Make attuned gems, let's say, emeralds, they all focus on the same spell and store magic for it.
Lots of wizards wielding gems, all likewise attuned, can all contribute to the same spell.
The spell is alive, it is a wall, it is crystal. 10 centimetres of steel should stop anything they care to throw at us, and the wall is alive, it gets thicker if it needs to and thinner if it can to save energy.
The wall is alive, it is perfectly capable of analysing attempts to dispel it and fighting against it as only a being formed of living and aware magic can. If it loses the fight, it just moulds itself around the antimagic and covers other places, or protects against attacks from above, or even grabs its own casters and places them out of the antimagic field.
Old magic: Summon living thing, channel a spell through a gem, mass-crystal summoning(caltrops and a wall that can 'move' by destroying itself at one point and creating itself at another sol ong as it maintains a single mass are pretty similar, but seriously, we have SO MUCH crystal expertise it isn't even sad anymore.).
New magic: Multiple people collaborating on one spell, dynamic crystal forms, maybe, not rally though, that stuff is old..., living 'magic': we have the magic wasps, which are alive, and made out of magic, but, I guess this is another step into meta so give that some acknowledgement I suppose...
If it works we can use if for ship armour.
Designs
4 - (Chiefwaffles) Hybrid Fireball Cannon: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, Stabby, Tyrant
0 - (RAM) Communual spell: The living wall:
0 - (RAM) Pillar of unmagic:
0 - (RAM) Codpiece-ripper:
Post by: Roboson on April 28, 2017, 08:39:19 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 08:41:11 pm
Watch the Cannon get nothing but 5s and a description along the lines of "It can shoot up to 50 meters away! A direct hit will probably knock someone over while singeing them. National effort."
Post by: evictedSaint on April 28, 2017, 08:52:23 pm
-Your troops witnessed them extending out to about mid-range.
Are they spheres, clouds, freeform, beams?
-clouds.
Do the mages producing them remain in the effect or does it exclude them?
-Remained inside.
Did they use other magic from within it?
-You did not see any.
Did the glowy fields intrude into area protected by our antimagic charms?
-Yes
Whoever sends more troops/equipment/whatever wins a revision?
-They will accept whichever side offers a better deal.
Can we at least confirm that the jungle is safe now?
-If you mean from vanishing, then no. Plant magic is decent at fixing small portions, but unless it stops snowing in the tropical jungle the ecosystem will continue to fade.
we could .. turn the tower of frost up to the microwave setting(it IS adjustable, and no word on the limits of that...)
-It goes from normal temperature to two levels below normal temperature.
How on earth does a ballista shoot a big rock at a ship?
-like this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballista)
How big exactly are these ballistae that they are effective against fortified jungle camps?
-They stand outside the walls and pelt them non-stop from beyond your range.
Communual spell: The living wall!
-Your Theatre Commander is not an idiot and you should listen to his advice because it's basically the GM telling you what would counter the enemy
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 28, 2017, 09:32:07 pm
Some of my ideas count as revisions. So will spam that.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 28, 2017, 09:35:10 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 28, 2017, 09:43:02 pm
Also the bonus revision smells like a trap as we need people. If honestly needed our guys in the mountains could use a work out.I agree with that at most we should send a Meager size force with a decent size amount of Crystal weapons since and Few mages. If we're lucky the Moskurgs will send a meduim to largish force and we can use that to take back ground.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 09:44:58 pm
Post by: RAM on April 28, 2017, 09:48:59 pm
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 28, 2017, 09:57:46 pm
Design: Instead of a massive cross bow firing one big bolt. It is a box with slits, a cyclones of tubes holding multiple bolts at a time, a lever that rotates to get it going and a second lever to fire. It is basically the Gatling gun of cross bows, but large scale. To pelt through masses of troops to kill them dead.
Still voting for Cannon. More uses. *13 ideas left.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 09:59:30 pm
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 28, 2017, 10:03:33 pm
Post by: Light forger on April 28, 2017, 10:30:28 pm
Crystal Greatbows
Contained in what looks like a small baton with a gemstone on either end. The crystal greatbow can be created or deconstructed at the whim of the user. The greatbow fires heavy iron arrows that look like short javelins and can be used like them in a pinch. Not only can our strongest longbow users put all their draw strength into the bow with no risk of shattering it. The bow also greatly arguments their strength. With this immense force behind the arrow and it's heavy weight it's all but impossible to deflect with wind spells and, can keep it's incredible destructive ability out to massive ranges. Unless the archer is stupid enough to wander into an enemy anti-magic field(which they should be) the simple iron arrows will be unaffected by their anti-magic field.
My main argument against the fireball cannon is it's weak to them improving their anti-magic field as that maybe able to dispel some or all of the fireball. A good old fashion bow stops that and should hopefully be cheaper and will be much more portable.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 28, 2017, 10:41:23 pm
So a siege Cannon that range is good.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 28, 2017, 11:08:31 pm
so steam/fireball cannon is our best bet. or I guess we could make black powder that was discovered by now.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 28, 2017, 11:33:30 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 28, 2017, 11:37:48 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 28, 2017, 11:43:07 pm
That and regarding mines, exploding ammunition, and traps: Well we already have mines and exploding ammunition: anti-magic bombs. They're just one revision away from having timers, too. Runes are also a magic thing which would be far easier and more effective than black powder.
Also, generally in my opinion, shooting literal fireballs out of cannon via magic and steam power >>>>>>> a regular cannon
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 29, 2017, 02:34:43 am
Idea for revision after we get the design results: Concentrated Fireballs(/Magic) - Basically let our wizards cast fireballs (or any magic) even in Moskurgian anti-magic fields. The stuff in parenthesis is because while it'd be nice, I don't think adapting all our spells to work in anti-magic fields is in the scope of a revision. This could be kind of like a test run.
Fluff explanation: (This isn't really needed for the revision - it's basically my argument for why this type of thing isn't scrambling in the dark.)
Since the only logical way for their anti-magic fields to work against our anti-magic bombs, they must be unknowingly using a kludge-y form of mathemagics.
See, the only logical way for their anti-magic fields to work against our anti-magic bombs is if they use the same if not a similar principle of anti-magic absorption. I'm assuming they're unknowingly using a kludge-y form of mathemagics. Magical "impurities", if you will, are what cause the fields to be visible to the naked eye.
Since the mathemagics stuff mentioned in designs/revisions/etc. mention wavelengths and the like, what if we could use a technique similar to noise-cancelling? Basically constantly emit a magic "signal" which cancels out their anti-magic "signal".
The hybrid cannon is more important now, though. This is just as an option in case we don't need to revise the cannon. It'd be extremely nice to have, but could be risky to pursue.
Post by: Azzuro on April 29, 2017, 02:44:52 am
I would have preferred not to deploy the Dogwood Mages this turn, or at least limit them to helping out in the homeland only, but what's done is done. Now they definitely know we have nature/plant magic, and will be making designs with that in mind.
Design: Fog-O-War
The final refinement of our prototype steam-powered ship is to supply the water intake via a Channelled Fog spell, thus eliminating the problem of salt building up in the pipes and increasing the efficiency as pure water boils at a lower temperature than seawater. Instead of venting the steam produced, it is captured and condensed, thus helping to solve the problem of the drive belt slipping due to wetness. The new ship is thus named the Arstotzkan Fog-O-War, and with its speed nullifying the Moskurg range advantage, will help us rule the waves in the Western Sea.
I know we are getting pushed back in the Jungle, but we're getting pushed back at sea as well. If the Moskurgites secure the whole Western Sea, then they'll get a bonus to Jungle combat that we'll be hard-pressed to overcome - and we won't even know how close they are to getting that because the territory counter is opaque. We know we have 3 sections of Jungle left, but we don't know how close to losing the Western Sea we are, so it's better to err on the side of caution and finally get that steamship design operational.
With that said, I'm still voting for the hybrid fireball cannon, because I don't vote for my own stuff.
Quote
5 - (Chiefwaffles) Hybrid Fireball Cannon: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, Stabby, Tyrant, Azzuro
0 - (Light forger) Crystal Greatbows
0 - (Azzuro) Fog-O-War
Post by: RAM on April 29, 2017, 03:00:27 am
Quote
5 - (Chiefwaffles) Hybrid Fireball Cannon: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, Stabby, Tyrant, Azzuro
0 - (Light forger) Crystal Greatbows
1 - (Azzuro) Fog-O-War: RAM
And send away our cavalry and mid-level mages. A revision is much more valuable than a single turn of territory lost.
Are all forms of antimagic identical? Or can they have weird interactions...
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 29, 2017, 03:40:07 am
Quote
6 - (Chiefwaffles) Hybrid Fireball Cannon: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, Stabby, Tyrant, Azzuro, void slayer
0 - (Light forger) Crystal Greatbows
1 - (Azzuro) Fog-O-War: RAM
We could always just use the cannon to launch apprentices into the air and have them shoot fireballs while they sail over the enemy.
Post by: andrea on April 29, 2017, 04:29:31 am
Post by: Azzuro on April 29, 2017, 04:41:22 am
And for further confusion, our steam engine uses a modified firewall to boil the steam.
Post by: andrea on April 29, 2017, 04:43:04 am
I mean, if all it does is propel fireballs, can't we just revise long range fireballs?
Post by: RAM on April 29, 2017, 04:46:08 am
Okay, only two ideas seem plausible. They make a cloud of metaphysical no-fun over the battlefield, which takes out everyone's mages so I guess their troops must be vastly superior to ours.
HEY!!! HOW IS THEIR SIEGE GEAR CATCHING OUR TROOPS?!? We can just retreat into the forest just like their ships have been doing for the past forever!
Very stern-eyed order! : withdraw into the deep jungle
We concentrate on dense forests and just withdraw into them. Our cavalry will be off fighting someone else's war so we won't be slowed by horses trying to navigate jungle and we won't be bothering with siege gear so they can leave their almighty ballista that somehow fit on their light ships or the new giant ships we haven't seen in open water somehow. Then we just exploit a new revision to just make the surrounding trees run rampant to give us super-duper stalling-tactics while we focus designs on the sea...
Ahem... Got a little lost there...
Their almost certainly either have a pre-generated cloud of metaphysical no-fun or a, umm, I thought I had something...
If it were active then our charms would drain it. If it were natural then they couldn't control it, as a natural force of no-wizards cannot be controlled by wizards, and these are definitely wizards because they are still casting positive magic, I think, did anyone notice any Moskurger wind? so it is neither an inherent quality of magic, such as our vacuum, nor anything aggressive as that either WOULDN'T interfere with our wizards or WOULD interfere with our charms.
So the problem is that it is pre-generated. So all we need to do is make our own charms more aggressive, make them suck up pre-generated effects somehow, it probably just means turning up the juice to overcome some natural inhibition of magic to move. Then we can suck up all the antimagic and convert the whole cloud into sound as soon as it hits one of our charms...
I would also like to see alternate ammunition in a single design like they did, we could have a carriage filled with fist-sized shot and one with antimagic bombs and one with kegger heads and one with spears... And would also like to second that long0range fireballs could be a revision.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 04:48:40 am
Quote
Okay, the only conceivable way that they can project a wave of glow into our antimagic zone
When, exactly, have they done that?
Post by: andrea on April 29, 2017, 04:51:13 am
Post by: Azzuro on April 29, 2017, 05:09:25 am
My feeling is that if we try that, the Moskurguans push for the frost tower, destroy it and will then wipe out or forces.QuoteOkay, the only conceivable way that they can project a wave of glow into our antimagic zone
When, exactly, have they done that?
Did the glowy fields intrude into area protected by our antimagic charms?
-Yes
Admittedly I don't see how their antimagic could entirely negate our antimagic arrows. Even if they projected antimagic over the fired arrows, the mage won't be able to cast and would need to relocate.
evictedSaint, have we observed Moskurg mages casting within their own antimagic fields, now that we can see the boundaries of the field?
EDIT: Just noticed it was said that no other magic was used within the field in that post, which only furthers my point of why the antimagic arrows are suddenly useless now. They should be stopping the other non-staff wielding Moskurg mages from casting, whether on pain of explosion or their own side's antimagic.
Also, the GM has said that plant magic won't save the Jungle. So congrats, we just wasted a whole turn on something that won't even help us in the theatre with the most plants. The only option is to stop using the Tower of Frost, but that's equally bad.
Post by: RAM on April 29, 2017, 06:12:05 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 06:16:23 am
Quote
Also, the GM has said that plant magic won't save the Jungle. So congrats, we just wasted a whole turn on something that won't even help us in the theatre with the most plants. The only option is to stop using the Tower of Frost, but that's equally bad.
Yeah, we wasted an entire turn for something only useful in a single area, that only ever gave us a minor advantage. We could have just as easily improved mist, fire walls or lances to disrupt the enemy formations, and get other benefits.
Let's just hope that the steam cannon works ...
I must say, I still have my doubts...
It will not at this level, but a single revision should change that. Just endensen the existing jungles. I really can't see the jungle still being in danger and it will continue to fortify us against their night raids.
It will not.
We need at least 2 good revisions to get it to work. One to further improve the size of the plants, another to ensure that we don't need to cast it on every individual plant.
Post by: andrea on April 29, 2017, 06:23:07 am
But yes, last turn was underwhelming.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 06:41:02 am
Post by: andrea on April 29, 2017, 06:43:20 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 29, 2017, 06:43:38 am
Its totally even outside any of the starting types of magic available. Probably because Druid magic has very little combat use...
We can probably revise it later into something useful, maybe.
Still wish we had learned to summon wolves that can spit out bees but you get what you can.
Post by: andrea on April 29, 2017, 06:45:00 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 06:46:25 am
We have never really used our conjure animal thing for example, even if we had it since the start.
Post by: Azzuro on April 29, 2017, 06:55:36 am
It will not at this level, but a single revision should change that. Just endensen the existing jungles. I really can't see the jungle still being in danger and it will continue to fortify us against their night raids.
Can we at least confirm that the jungle is safe now?
-If you mean from vanishing, then no. Plant magic is decent at fixing small portions, but unless it stops snowing in the tropical jungle the ecosystem will continue to fade.
we could .. turn the tower of frost up to the microwave setting(it IS adjustable, and no word on the limits of that...)
-It goes from normal temperature to two levels below normal temperature.
It took me a while to figure out 'endensen', for future reference, the word is 'densify'. The GM has explicitly stated that the snow is the root cause and getting rid of it is the only way to stop the fading, not more plant magics. And nowhere was it stated that the plant growth we currently have is helping to fortify us against night raids.
But anyway, now that we've done it, best to capitalise on it. (Yes, I do know about sunk cost fallacy.) We could go with a crop-growing programme using apprentices from the AAAA to boost our crop yields, name it MagiMonsanto.
As for conjuring animals, the issue is that Moskurg already has antimagic that dispels crystals. It likely would be simple to turn it to dispel living creatures as well.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 07:05:05 am
The spells are not at all related, after all.
Post by: andrea on April 29, 2017, 07:08:30 am
If whatever we summon doesn't become a permanent, "mundane" part of our world, I believe they can dispel it. If our animals are on a timer like crystals, they will be gone.
If however once conjured they are stable parts of the world, they should stay, like fireballs.
edit: I hope that waffles comes and clarifies what he meant with the cannon design... if the cannon is supposed to propel the fireball, then it seems like an unnecessarily complex way to achieve longer ranged fireballs ( just need a revision to the spell!) and it doesn't augment our mundane damage ability, which may be needed due to their advances in antimagic. Plus, I odn't believe it makes much sense to have steam propelling fireballs, but maybe that is just me.
Using a fireball to provide flash evaporation of a boiler would, however, be a tremendously effective idea. Limit to historical steam cannons was producing enough steam quickly enough, and fireball seems extremely suitable for that.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 29, 2017, 07:09:05 am
Spell idea to pair off with hybrid Cannon: Scry:
Instead of worrying about trying to make the ballistics miss (I doubt we can, seems a cheese magic here) we use scrying to pin point nightly raids in intercepting AND coordinate our cannons to blow up the It over sized bows.
If want actual defense was thinking of evocation. A magic barrier spell to block the hits.
( as the tricky of anti magic I do not trust crystals.)
Ablative Force Field: Layered force field, of raw force energy to intercept blows of our command. And multiple layers so it is a rechargeable one too.
Also had ideas for ships, iron clads. The next idea is not conjuring but alteration. (Going by magic types in this world.)
Green Steel: Badically ultra light, but still strong green metal enhancement that boosts survival ability. For iron clads only.
Last idea for another time.
Weight of Lead: Transmutation and stealing from a page of war hammer. The enemy all have METAL armor now right? Well with this, anyone wearing metal armor in zone of influence (except us. Or something else for latter update.) in field? The armor does not gain defense value, but the weight of said armor is ampuflued. So they are not so mobile.
Please note this is my brain storming and stuff. Do not have to take anything serious anymore.
* Six ideas left.
Keep in mind. Just throwing it out there. Not like this war is ending any time soon.
Edit: Also the only positive thing about the listed above things is there are no branches of the tech tree. Just revision to make sure it works. Only two things left in my head have a real tech tree branch (aside plants. But well that's what revisions are for.)
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 29, 2017, 07:14:19 am
Post by: andrea on April 29, 2017, 07:17:28 am
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 29, 2017, 07:18:54 am
Post by: Azzuro on April 29, 2017, 07:34:37 am
That doesn't invalidate the Fog-O-War, though. We only need some pure water, and if we're condensing the steam back for reuse then even less.
Post by: andrea on April 29, 2017, 07:38:23 am
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 29, 2017, 08:09:57 am
Flight: Transmutation school spell ( altering wind and energy around for lift. Maybe some anti gravity too.)
To truly revolutionize War. Is to make it three dimensional. quote. A wise man.
With this spell our mages can now fly. Starting at modest speeds ( can be boosted. With time.) so can fly in and carpet bomb enemy rank and ballista with fire balls. Thus increasing range of spells. Not by alteringvspell. But where and how it's castes.
Improvements would be flight speed and such. Could turn our ships to air craft carriers ( which won WW2. Not battle or cruiser ships.)
Last idea and this one. My actual serious one.
*5 left.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 08:11:50 am
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 29, 2017, 08:13:11 am
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 29, 2017, 09:28:31 am
-Wind magic
-lightning
-those freak spear from God or what ever they re called
Also isn't there no point for voting for your own stuff? Since everyone would do it and then it'll change nothing other then make
Ing vote counting a longer process.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 29, 2017, 09:47:14 am
And the wind thing seems to be Arrow weight things. Not people weight.
Edit: ^= Because our fire balls are not effected. At least I think that's the case.
I see the Cannon working. We need it. Just going to have to aim it as good as they aimmtheir gun (not happening with a spell.) or we hit them in a high spray shower of heated Death ( a revision) so no need to aim. ( unless we can shrapnel shell as soon we get hybrid Cannon. Which is unlikely.)
Post by: Roboson on April 29, 2017, 01:55:57 pm
I see the Cannon working. We need it. Just going to have to aim it as good as they aimmtheir gun (not happening with a spell.) or we hit them in a high spray shower of heated Death ( a revision) so no need to aim. ( unless we can shrapnel shell as soon we get hybrid Cannon. Which is unlikely.)
I doubt we'd have to spend a turn designing grapeshot.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 29, 2017, 02:05:39 pm
If anything we might spend a turn create a variety of ammunition types and cheapening and perfecting them. Like Anti-magic shells, airburst shells, shells filled with the fire-venom form the wasps, grapeshot, etc.I see the Cannon working. We need it. Just going to have to aim it as good as they aimmtheir gun (not happening with a spell.) or we hit them in a high spray shower of heated Death ( a revision) so no need to aim. ( unless we can shrapnel shell as soon we get hybrid Cannon. Which is unlikely.)
I doubt we'd have to spend a turn designing grapeshot.
actually we should use that fire-venom more. We could revise a plant grow spell to cause thorns filled with the stuff to grow on plants to stop soldier and horses.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 29, 2017, 02:21:11 pm
I see the Cannon working. We need it. Just going to have to aim it as good as they aimmtheir gun (not happening with a spell.) or we hit them in a high spray shower of heated Death ( a revision) so no need to aim. ( unless we can shrapnel shell as soon we get hybrid Cannon. Which is unlikely.)
I doubt we'd have to spend a turn designing grapeshot.
Our people do not even have freakken shovels. Just saying.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 29, 2017, 02:23:40 pm
Taking your Theatre Commanders advice to heart, you begin work on Arstotzkas very first artillery piece.
Your design makes good use of the metal ore extracted from the mountains, but even so the device requires a new dedicated workshop for its manufacture. It's essentially a short cup-shaped tube with a water reservoir in the back. The design uses a combination of a specially-conjured PSF and water for propulsion - the PSF requires a bit of modification to be cast through the metal casing and takes a considerable amount of time to develop. The PSF instantly super-heats the water into steam, which is then forced through the tube in a single, powerful blast. Anything that happens to be inside the tube is carried along for the ride, sending it a long ways away. The ammunition must be specially crafted to fit inside the barrel, and to this end our Mathemagicians use specially-carved rocks. It takes a non-negligible amount of labor to carve these rocks into spheres smooth enough to fit within the barrel nicely, but they tend to fly straighter and more reliably than a rough-hewn boulder would. They are roughly a little larger than a mans head.
The Hybrid Cannon is very heavy, but is mounted on a wheeled, wooden frame and pulled by horses. It requires set-up before use. It requires a fresh bucket of water between each firing event as fuel, and cannot fire without an attending mage. The cannon also grows quite hot after several firings, requiring water-quenching to get down to usable temperatures. This repeated heating-cooling cycle has a tendency to cause the barrel to crack, which is preferable to firing while hot since that causes the cannon ball to jam and result in an explosion. The rock-based ammunition also has an unfortunate tendency to crack, which can jam the barrel and either cause an explosion or a lengthy repair process. The device is...reasonably accurate, reliably hitting in a radius of sixty to seventy meters at maximum range - this would make it effective against massed troops, but we won't be sniping anyone with it. Its maximum range is about the same as that of our longbowmen; mid-range. It requires several months of training before an artillery team is competent enough to use it.
Perhaps most unfortunately is the requirement that each cannon be attended to by a wizard or an apprentice for use, meaning they cannot be used elsewhere or by non-magical troops. On the bright side, the cannons take very little time to load and fire, meaning we can shoot several times a minute until we run out of the specially-crafted ammunition.
The manufacturing workshop requires a bit of investment to get up and running, but our ore bonus lets us produce them relatively cheaply. Expensive.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 29, 2017, 02:25:12 pm
Our people do not even have freakken shovels. Just saying.
...what?
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 29, 2017, 02:29:58 pm
Revision : Cannon: Ammo: Instead of just crafted boulders it fires smooth shells. Some explode into shrapnel, fire, magic castings with things. Etc.
Also think oyrvexpense credit should go to Cannon. Try to out do The ballista like Sherman tank did to panzers. By the number.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 02:31:20 pm
Our people do not even have freakken shovels. Just saying.
...what?
A miscommunication, I'm afraid.
At one point I suggested that we could have designed trench digging shovels to fortify our troops against the Moskurgians, a Tyrant appears to have taken from that that we don't know shovels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrenching_tool
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 02:34:38 pm
And it's (once again) apparently useless.
It has the same range as our wizards and longbows, requires a wizard, and is less deadly than a wizard.
Well, maybe not entirely useless. I hope it has a greater fire rate, but that's it's only benefit. Oh, and maybe magic resistance.
Anyway, our problem was that the enemy engaged at long range, and our cannon has not at all solved that.
Revision : Long range fireballs
Upgrade our fireball spell to attack the enemy at long range.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 29, 2017, 02:38:22 pm
Yeah, your brand-new relatively cheap artillery piece isn't the best thing in the world after being designed in a single turn.
Do you ever stop complaining?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 02:39:26 pm
Quote
Yeah, your brand-new relatively cheap artillery piece isn't the best thing in the world after being designed in a single turn.
The problem is not that it's bad. This thing isn't. Not really. I mean, it's definitively flawed, but I've come to expect that.
The problem is that it was designed to solve 1 problem (long range Moskurgian attacks) and does not solve that. It may fire faster than french interwar artillery, it may be able to turn Moskurgians into mush. All that is irrelevant until we can get it at long range.
What this design does is take mages who would have been throwing fireballs and let's them throw stones, for no gain either side.
Post by: andrea on April 29, 2017, 02:40:13 pm
I see that ammunition is a big issue, but we can improve it. the attending mage can also be a problem, but might not be too big.
As for ammunition, the problem seems to be making it fit the barrel well, not making it crack, perhaps making it lighter to achieve greater range.
great news, we can do that! crystal summoning is the perfect solution. Easy, cheap, can control the shape, sturdy but light.
Now, what it is that I hear you say? crystal disappears in their antimagic field?
-evil grin-
that is a feature. our new projectile can be formed by a crystal matrix, in which other objects are embedded such as smaller rocks, pebbles, fire venom from the wasps, nails and metal scraps depending on what is needed by the situation. if they don't dispel it, they get it by a big crystal ball which may shatter on impact.
if they DO dispel it, they get it by flying shrapnel/ sprayed by venom/ hit by biggish rocks depending on the shot we use.
Crystal cannon ammunition rocks are nice, but they don't quite cut it. we need something light, smooth and sturdy enough to not crack in the cannon. The solution adopted is creating a crystal sphere which encases the actual ammunition, which at this point does not need to be carved accurately. the ammunition encased can be a big rock for concentrated damage, several biggish rocks, pebbles or nails and metal scraps /small metal balls if we want to cover a big area. other special ammunition is considered, such as 2 chained balls or bottles of fire wasp venom.
In case the solid sphere is too complex, an hollow sphere is cast. smaller objects can be inserted after casting, while for bigger ones the sphere is still cast around them.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 29, 2017, 02:42:49 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 29, 2017, 02:43:12 pm
"Its maximum range is about the same as that of our longbowmen; mid-range."
While it's nice to have, the entire point of the cannon is to work as an extreme-range weapon, countering their ballistas. Right now, their ballistas still outrange the cannon.
Revision: Extreme-range Cannon
A description isn't really needed (given how straightforward this is), but just for fluff I'll give one anyways: More aerodynamic ammo and/or safely-increased pressure in the chamber allows for a significantly increased range in the cannon. Hopefully letting us shell our enemies from vast distances.
Things to fix with the cannon:
- Range.
- Ammo. Also important, but not as much as range. Ammo #1 concern should be easier-to-produce ammo, then we can explore possibilities of shells (ANTI-MAGIC BOMB SHELLS) like suggested by Tyrant. Better shells is low priority though.
- Crew requirement. Being able to have non-wizards fully man the cannons would be amazing.
- Accuracy. It'd be nice to snipe with these things.
- Durability/Reliability. The issue with exploding cannons is a problem with the ammo, so that could be fixed if we address the ammo at any point. But other than that, we should address the damage inflicted on the cannon during regular use.
And for the expense credit: I'm still not sure. I'm not strictly against using it this phase, but I think we should use it on the cannons if we increase their range enough.
PLEASE LIST YOUR DESIGNS IN THIS FORMAT IF YOU ADD ANY.
Quote
Revisions
1 - (Chiefwaffles) Extreme-range Cannons: Chiefwaffles
1 - (Tyrant) Cannon Specialized Shells: Tyrant
1 - (Andrea) Crystal Cannon Ammnition: Andrea
Expense Credit
1 - (Tyrant) Hybrid Cannon: Tyrant
NINJAEDIT: Oh yeah.
Evicted: Can we fit our ships with the hybrid cannon?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 02:43:46 pm
Remember the main problem of this turn?
Quote
Whether you must design new artillery or upgrade an existing spell, we need something to match the Moskurgs in range. .
Quote
Its maximum range is about the same as that of our longbowmen; mid-range.
We need to improve our ranged attack. Forget about the ammunition, forget about everything else. We need long range stuff.
Crystal ball ammo for sniping ballista can easily be in purview boon of multiple/speciality ammo. Glad in same page. And what about idea on spending expense credit in these cannons? With right shot and numbers. Could carpet bomb those guys Russian style.
This cannon needs to be operated by Mages.
Having enough cannons for every soldier is useless, because we don't have enough mages to operate them.
Quote
And for the expense credit: I'm still not sure. I'm not strictly against using it this phase, but I think we should use it on the cannons if we increase their range enough.
I don't think we should. If they were a national effort, I would agree. But they are merely expensive.
We don't need a cannon for every soldier.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 02:46:19 pm
Quote
1 - (Chiefwaffles) Extreme-range Cannons: Chiefwaffles
1 - (Tyrant) Cannon Specialized Shells: Tyrant
1 - (Andrea) Crystal Cannon Ammnition: Andrea
1 - (10ebbor10) Long Range Fireballs : 10ebbor10
Expense Credit
1 - (Tyrant) Hybrid Cannon: Tyrant
1 - (10ebbor10) Save until after revision phase : 10ebbor10
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 29, 2017, 02:49:31 pm
Post by: andrea on April 29, 2017, 02:50:30 pm
My proposal also solves or helps with other items in the list: easier to produce ( we got quite good at producing crystal and whatever we encase in it doesn't need to have high quality standards), more accurate due to being smooth and less required accuracy because if they dispel it they send shrapnel, less chance of exploding in the cannon because crystal is as sturdy as metal
Quote
Revisions
2 - (Chiefwaffles) Extreme-range Cannons: Chiefwaffles, Andrea
1 - (Tyrant) Cannon Specialized Shells: Tyrant
1 - (Andrea) Crystal Cannon Ammnition: Andrea
Expense Credit
1 - (Tyrant) Hybrid Cannon: Tyrant
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 02:52:28 pm
What would happen if we use our Expense credit on this.
Arzotskan Academy for Adequate Apprenticeship: Basic magic training for apprentices. Allows them to be more useful on the offensive. Very prestigious. Very Expensive.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 29, 2017, 02:54:15 pm
Quote1 - (Chiefwaffles) Extreme-range Cannons: Chiefwaffles
1 - (Andrea) Crystal Cannon Ammnition: Andrea
2- (10ebbor10) Long Range Fireballs :tyrant, 10ebbor10
Expense Credit
1 - (10ebbor10) Save until after revision phase : 10ebbor10
I have decided to get my head out of my rear and realized with our magic can just had a perfected fire ball at ballusta range and can save credit.
Blazing Sphere: By igniting the abundant air while absorbing air to jet propulsion. Makes fire balls have longer range.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 29, 2017, 02:55:27 pm
Quote
Evicted: Can we fit our ships with the hybrid cannon?You can, although seawater would be used in place of fresh water. This will cause problems with salt build up, but unless you guys state otherwise your ships will be outfitted with these Hybrid Cannons.
Quote
What would happen if we use our Expense credit on this.
It would become Normal Cost and you would have more cannons than you would mages.
Edit: sorry, misunderstood what you meant. I don't know; pitch what you're hoping to accomplish by reducing the expense and I'll see how feasible it is.
Post by: andrea on April 29, 2017, 02:57:05 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 02:58:46 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 29, 2017, 03:01:37 pm
And that's good news with the ships.
Also Tyrant, you didn't include Andrea's vote for Extreme-range cannons.
Quote
2 - (Chiefwaffles) Extreme-range Cannons: Chiefwaffles, Andrea
1 - (Andrea) Crystal Cannon Ammnition: Andrea
2- (10ebbor10) Long Range Fireballs: Tyrant, 10ebbor10
Expense Credit
2 - (10ebbor10) Save until after revision phase : 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles
Let me briefly state my argument for an extreme-range cannon:
- Remember the whole "Let's not build cool things then abandon them" thing? That.
- Hybrid cannons work at sea, too! Extreme-range will near-certainly make us competent at sea again. Admittedly, fireballs work at sea too, but it's not an advantage unique to them.
- Range potential: It makes sense that making artillery longer-ranged would be easier than a fireball. Conjecture, sure, but still.
- Increased range for cannons will benefit any future revisions to the cannon, too. Next revision I really want to make it so we don't need mages to man them. If this would be the case, then we wouldn't need mages for better range. And also, what if we get specialized shells or anything like that? They too will benefit from longer-range.
Post by: andrea on April 29, 2017, 03:01:50 pm
However, to your list you should add horses. We did this in the past, we can do it again
edit: your argument is good, waffles.
My counterargument is that my proposal has a decent chance to achieve long range as well( although worse than your), but it also solves several other problems in the cannon.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 03:03:28 pm
Quote
I don't know; pitch what you're hoping to accomplish by reducing the expense and I'll see how feasible it is.
Well, I'd just treat it just as regular expenses are handled.
Quote
Inexpensive equipment could be given to every soldier, if you want. Cantrips can be cast by every wizard. Expensive equipment can be given to officers, or one per squad (5-10 soldiers). Very Expensive equipment can be used by special squads only, about 1 in 100 soldiers
Quote
At the start of the game, it is assumed that you can put out one wizard (probably an apprentice) per five squads, so spells will take effect accordingly.
So, it would increase the prevalence of apprentices in our army from 1 per 50/ 1 per 25 to 1 in 10. With appropriate effects on Spells and the like.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 03:04:01 pm
However, to your list you should add horses. We did this in the past, we can do it again
We are already at maximum horse cheapness. Unless you want horses riding horses, I don't see any further improvement.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 29, 2017, 03:04:33 pm
Post by: andrea on April 29, 2017, 03:05:52 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 29, 2017, 03:06:03 pm
Quote
2 - (Chiefwaffles) Extreme-range Cannons: Chiefwaffles, AndreaStabby
1 - (Andrea) Crystal Cannon Ammunition: Andrea
2- (10ebbor10) Long Range Fireballs :tyrant, 10ebbor10
Expense Credit
2 - (10ebbor10) Save until after revision phase : 10ebbor10, Stabby, Chiefwaffles
how about we design a fireball handgrenade next turn for use by non-magic troops. It would allow them to not only destroy enemy formations but also use that cannon without a mage.
Christ let other people post I can't keep up.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 03:07:00 pm
since when did we get at maximum horse cheapness? when we tried to invade the desert we used an expense credit on them, so they weren't cheap. And I don't remember anything happening since them that could have made our horses cheaper?
We used a previous production credit on it. There was a bit of a fuzz about it.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 29, 2017, 03:07:15 pm
So, it would increase the prevalence of apprentices in our army from 1 per 50/ 1 per 25 to 1 in 10. With appropriate effects on Spells and the like.
That's surprisingly reasonable.
Sure, lowering the expense would allow you to scour your kingdom for more individuals with magical inclination and conscript them into your army.
And to clarify, there's 4 expense levels.
Cheap/Normal (interchangeable, mean the same thing) - Everyone who can use it gets it.
Expensive - Reserved for officers or trained wizards.
Very Expensive - Reserved for Elite Squads, Theatre Commanders, and Master Wizards.
National Effort - Only one may be used at a time. Requires your Hero to operate.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 29, 2017, 03:10:19 pm
About the Fireball handgrenade: we should definitely look into ways to have embedded magic/runes/enchantments/whatever allowing our soldiers to use magic-type things without a mage present. It'd be useful for a large variety of things including revising the cannon to not require a mage presence.
And RE: horse cheapness. The last update says horses are at Regular while the max cheapness is Cheap.
AND RE TO THE NINJA EVICTED: Oh, that's awesome. I'm changing my vote now.
Quote
3 - (Chiefwaffles) Extreme-range Cannons: Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Stabby
1 - (Andrea) Crystal Cannon Ammunition: Andrea
2- (10ebbor10) Long Range Fireballs :tyrant, 10ebbor10
Expense Credit
2 - (10ebbor10) Save until after revision phase: 10ebbor10, Stabby
1 - (10ebbor10) Arzotskan Academy: Chiefwaffles
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 03:14:44 pm
Quote
If a piece of equipment is difficult to produce (or a spell is difficult or costly to cast), it has expense levels: 1 is Expensive, 2 is Very Expensive, and 3 is A National Effort
Regular is the same expense as cheap. It's just inconsistent terminology.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 29, 2017, 03:15:56 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 29, 2017, 03:19:42 pm
That didn't seem to be the case when I was looking through the combat engine though, so I just rolled with it.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 03:25:02 pm
Long range cannons
+ Same prevalence as fireballs (limited by apprentices)
+ Non-magical projectile (not stoppable by anti magic)
+ Penetrating projectile (cannonballs will bounce through enemy lines)
+ Rapid fire rate
- Limited Ammunition
- Mechanically unreliable
Fireball
+ Same prevalence as cannons ( but limited by apprentices only)
+ Splash damage that can destroy entire squad
+ Will start fires
- Magical projectile (not stoppable by current enemy countermeasures, but new ones could be designed)
Let's also think about what they have to do. At extra long range, we need to blow up ships and Ballistae. A cannon shot against the ship will kill a dozen men with splintering, but will leave the vessel otherwise intact. A fireball shot at a ship will set the rigging on fire, allowing our vessels to close in for the dead blow.
Same for the ballistae. A cannon ball needs a direct hit, else the ball will just pass straight on. A fireball will set the surroundings on fire and destroy their entire battery. (They will place their ballistae close together, so that 1 mage can aid them all).
Cannons have their use against Moskurg's dense formations. There, the cannon ball can bounce through a dozen men, ruining any teamwork and striking fear into their hearts. At this medium range, the rapid fire will heavily disrupt the enemy formation just before the fighting happens.
My only fear is that the Moskurgians manage to make a counter to our fireball. They can not predict the cannon.
I also thought it went cheap>normal>expensive>very expensive>national effort.
That didn't seem to be the case when I was looking through the combat engine though, so I just rolled with it.
So, just to be certain, is the current system
cheap>normal>expensive>very expensive>national effort
or
cheap/normal>expensive>very expensive>national effort
Post by: evictedSaint on April 29, 2017, 03:29:08 pm
Besides, gamewise there's no real benefit to "Cheap" when Normal equips the entire army. Cost is an abstraction and we're not managing resources.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 03:29:34 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 29, 2017, 03:31:07 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 29, 2017, 03:33:53 pm
Quote
3 - (Chiefwaffles) Extreme-range Cannons: Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Stabby
1 - (Andrea) Crystal Cannon Ammunition: Andrea
2- (10ebbor10) Long Range Fireballs :tyrant, 10ebbor10
Expense Credit
1 - (10ebbor10) Save until after revision phase: 10ebbor10,
2 - (10ebbor10) Arzotskan Academy: Chiefwaffles, Stabby
Yeah cheap doesn't real do much without the Ore/Oil resources. Maybe it should affect exports for credits maybe? since I imagine it's easier to sell something when you can produce ten of a good product a day compare to someone's one.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 03:36:23 pm
Quote
3 - (Chiefwaffles) Extreme-range Cannons: Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Stabby
1 - (Andrea) Crystal Cannon Ammunition: Andrea
2- (10ebbor10) Long Range Fireballs :tyrant, 10ebbor10
Expense Credit
3 - (10ebbor10) Arzotskan Academy: Chiefwaffles, Stabby, 10ebbor10
I added my vote to the Arztotskan academy. That thing will make a very big impact.
Post by: andrea on April 29, 2017, 03:39:06 pm
Quote
3 - (Chiefwaffles) Extreme-range Cannons: Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Stabby
1 - (Andrea) Crystal Cannon Ammunition: Andrea
2- (10ebbor10) Long Range Fireballs :tyrant, 10ebbor10
Expense Credit
1 - (10ebbor10) Save until after revision phase: 10ebbor10,
3 - (10ebbor10) Arzotskan Academy: Chiefwaffles, Stabby, Andrea, 10ebbor10
You make good points on the fireball ebbor, but our fireballs have been present for far too much time on the battlefield and they are too effective... countering them will be very high on their to do list. Hence why I prefer to keep my vote on the cannon, since protecting from a big boulder is comparatively harder.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 03:40:02 pm
Post by: andrea on April 29, 2017, 03:41:10 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 29, 2017, 04:02:33 pm
The cannon ball could be replaced with a super dense metal coconut grown from a hybrid plant while the barrel could be a summoned crystal that can be re summoned when it gets cracked. This could be a nice revision next turn. This would be similar to the artillery developed in the first game where we swapped the barrel out when it became hot, but this time we swap it out with magic!
Quote
3 - (Chiefwaffles) Extreme-range Cannons: Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Stabby, voidslayer
1 - (Andrea) Crystal Cannon Ammunition: Andrea
2- (10ebbor10) Long Range Fireballs :tyrant, 10ebbor10
Expense Credit
1? 2? - (10ebbor10) Save until after revision phase: 10ebbor10, voidslayer
3 - (10ebbor10) Arzotskan Academy: Chiefwaffles, Stabby, Andrea, 10ebbor10
Lets make it a little longer range.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 04:09:21 pm
Quote
4 - (Chiefwaffles) Extreme-range Cannons: Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Stabby, voidslayer
1 - (Andrea) Crystal Cannon Ammunition: Andrea
2- (10ebbor10) Long Range Fireballs :tyrant, 10ebbor10
Expense Credit
1 - (10ebbor10) Save until after revision phase: voidslayer
4 - (10ebbor10) Arzotskan Academy: Chiefwaffles, Stabby, Andrea, 10ebbor10
Quote
The cannon ball could be replaced with a super dense metal coconut grown from a hybrid plant while the barrel could be a summoned crystal that can be re summoned when it gets cracked.
We don't know how to make regular coconuts, let alone metal ones.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 29, 2017, 04:13:07 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 29, 2017, 05:10:57 pm
Would we have to take a turn to design iron cannonballs? Or would that be more of a revision thing? I just figured I'd ask because we have a surplus of metal and so we'd likely want to get those at some point (because we could make more of them in a short time and have the metal bonus).
Also
Quote
5 - (Chiefwaffles) Extreme-range Cannons: Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Stabby, voidslayer. Roboson
1 - (Andrea) Crystal Cannon Ammunition: Andrea
2- (10ebbor10) Long Range Fireballs :tyrant, 10ebbor10
Expense Credit
1 - (10ebbor10) Save until after revision phase: voidslayer
5 - (10ebbor10) Arzotskan Academy: Chiefwaffles, Stabby, Andrea, 10ebbor10, Roboson
Quote
The cannon ball could be replaced with a super dense metal coconut grown from a hybrid plant while the barrel could be a summoned crystal that can be re summoned when it gets cracked.
We don't know how to make regular coconuts, let alone metal ones.
[/quote]
Post by: evictedSaint on April 29, 2017, 05:15:46 pm
As it turns out, using cannons is all math. Trajectories, muzzle velocity, drag and drop - compared to the mathematics that go into magic, these are trivial.
The easiest way to boost range is to reduce the size of the ammunition. A fist-sized rock will kill just as well as a boulder if it's traveling fast enough, and there's no need to make them that big. We reduce the size of the barrel to a more sane diameter. This lets us also increase the length of the barrel by using the same amount of material, although it's still equally susceptible to cracking and jammed-ammo explosions. The smaller size of the ammo also means we can carry more of them with the artillery train, although the limiting factor is still the complexity of crafting each one individually.
The end result gives us a cannon that will shoot long-range, effectively matching Moskurg's primitive ballista. We aren't as accurate and can't target commanders and mages with them, but we have more of them and the fist-sized rocks can be loaded quicker to give us a higher firing rate. We're having difficulty nailing down the cause of the inaccuracy, but for the moment they will be effective on the battlefield. Expensive
Post by: evictedSaint on April 29, 2017, 05:16:44 pm
Quote
Would we have to take a turn to design iron cannonballs?
It's simple enough it could be done in a revision, especially now that they're a smaller size.
Post by: andrea on April 29, 2017, 05:18:18 pm
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 29, 2017, 05:21:17 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 29, 2017, 05:22:17 pm
Remember: if you win, the troops you send will be absent this turn.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 29, 2017, 05:25:56 pm
Next phase we shouldn't be making anything new. Hopefully, the new cannons will at least prevent any further Moskurg advances at sea, and new artillery should prevent further Moskurg gains in the jungle.
I'm thinking we should start actively countering their advantages. Namely:
- Goddamn lucky shot.
- Their anti-magic
- Their new armor and weapons
@Andrea: I'm pretty sure from the wording in the design that the new ammunition is just as effective even with its reduced size.
Also, when is the expense credit "used" anyways?
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 29, 2017, 05:27:51 pm
We can revise the cannon next turn, I think an explosive shot that contains a self activating fireball would be neat or just cheaper. For this turn lets try and grab that extra revision credit so we can super revise something.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 05:30:20 pm
Please reach an agreement on what troops you will offer to send, if any.
Remember: if you win, the troops you send will be absent this turn.
Sending troops :
Send part of the Tundra Garisson. My logic here is simple. The enemy is not attacking in the Tundra. Even if they do, we can just push them back next turn, with our massive homefield advantage. After all, we don't loose resources for having the Tundra invaded.
This allows us to send forces without weakening our front.
Send crystal axe and crystal lance equipped heavily armored cavalry along with the new cannon.
We can revise the cannon next turn, I think an explosive shot that contains a self activating fireball would be neat or just cheaper. For this turn lets try and grab that extra revision credit so we can super revise something.
Enemy has anti magic. The balls would not detonate.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 29, 2017, 05:31:01 pm
Send large amounts of crystal axe and crystal lance equipped heavily armored cavalry along with a few hybrid cannons and just above the minimum required amount of apprentices to maintain the crystal weaponry and crew the cannons.
We're so lucky to have so many useless-to-us things to send!
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 05:34:51 pm
Quote
Revision Credit!!! Foreigners land on our shores. They are dark skinned and clad in simple garments of rough cotton and furs, and their accent is thick and difficult to understand. They approach our king and beg for assistance. It seems they are from across the ocean from a small country in a hot desert land and their home is under attack by invaders. They are a poor people, and in their desperate search for mercenaries to help them hold their land they come to Forenia. They cannot afford to pay for mercenary services, but if we help them them offer the wisdom of their mystic, an old man by the name of Barbushe. Because Moskurg and Arstotzka are unwilling to cooperate, they will go with whichever nation can offer more troops, weapons, and other equipment to help them beat back the invaders.
Remember people, they come from a hot desert land, so Moskurg basically gets the homefield advantage immediatly. Not sure Plate armor is going to well, work.
And that's all the info we have.
Post by: andrea on April 29, 2017, 05:35:40 pm
@chiefwaffles effetcive yes, but it depends at what. generic formation breaking, big boulder has bigger effect. Just killing whatever it hits, small boulder is fine as well.
small gauge cannon also has less opportunity to field special ammunition, so I don't want our big cannon to be forgotten entirely.
-1 to sending away our apprentices and cannons most of our spells are cheap and they can be mass deployed. apprentices are far from useless. and sending a few cannons probably equates to icnreasing their expense level. I want to see them widely deployed from turn 1.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 05:38:17 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 29, 2017, 05:38:21 pm
The Academy has done a good job of training new apprentices in the mystical arts of mathemagics, but the limiting factor isn't the training - it's the enrollment. For a fine as the Academy is, it could house so many more burgeoning young mages than it currently does. Clearly, we need to find more apprentices.
The AAAA is proud to offer its very first military scholarship! By scouring the nearby villages and towns for youngsters with even the most remote hint of magical or mathematical talent and offering them a scholarship to attend the very prestigious Academy, we can almost double the amount of apprentices we can field. The only catch is that the individual must agree to serve two years in the Arstotzkan Military after their three-month education, but afterwards they're free to return to their villages and use their magic to improve the quality of life for their friends, neighbors, and family.
We get more sign-ups once we remove the mortality rate of apprentices from the flyer, but mathemagical talent is rare to find. Still, the halls of the AAAA are soon bustling with young men and women who will one day serve Arstotzka proudly on the front lines.
Glory to Arstotzka. Expensive
Note: you've about tapped all the magic users in your country. Newer ones are being born all the time and coming of age, but at the moment the only ones you don't have are the ones who've declined the offer.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 29, 2017, 05:40:16 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 05:40:28 pm
Quote
The only catch is that the individual must agree to serve two years in the Arstotzkan Military after their three-month education, but afterwards they're free to return to their villages and use their magic to improve the quality of life for their friends, neighbors, and family
Is this fluff, or can we count on bonusses if we manage to keep the Moskurgians from murdering our mages for two years?
Post by: evictedSaint on April 29, 2017, 05:42:02 pm
Quote
Is this fluff, or can we count on bonusses if we manage to keep the Moskurgians from murdering our mages for two years?
If you can keep a non-negligable amount of apprentices alive for two years, you will get a better-fed populace due to your Dogwood Mages (not much need for fireballs, crystals, wasps, or spiderwebs in civilian life, though).
Keep in mind, both Moskurg and Arstotzka go through apprentices like fucking tissue paper.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 29, 2017, 05:43:04 pm
Send large amounts of crystal axe and crystal lance equipped heavily armored cavalry along with a few hybrid cannons and just above the minimum required amount of apprentices to maintain the crystal weaponry and crew the cannons. Also send part of the forces currently garrisoning the Tundra.
@Andrea:
Sending away a few cannons would most certainly not increase their expense level. "A few" is like 10 at max. The cannons are more of a novel thing. We also have a lot of apprentices. In fact, the expense credit being used on the Academy will radically increase the amount to the degree where we could send large amounts of apprentices away and still have more apprentices this combat phase than last. I mean, there's a reason I said minimum because I'd still like to use the advantage from the apprentices, and just sending the minimum, while required for our contribution for the revision credit, will be barely noticeable on the battlefield.
Besides, we really need that revision credit considering the mediocre states of many of our designs.
That and the crystal weaponry will more or less be useless without magical maintaining.
@Ebbor: While I'm somewhat open to not including the cannons, how will we lose if we send in cavalry?
Post by: Roboson on April 29, 2017, 05:43:55 pm
My vote would be: Send half of the soldiers used to guard the tundra, and all of our additional new mages (if we get them in time for this), as well as as many crystal weapons we can. No cannons though, and very little calvary.
End result: We're more at risk IF they attack the tundra (which is unlikely as their likely going to press into the jungle or reopen the mountain front) and we have the same number of mages as we did last turn. Our front lines don't change, except now we have a bunch of cannons.
Against soldiers, cannon caliber really doesn't matter. In fact, we'd be better off using grapeshot as it can hit many more soldiers than just a single cannonball. You only need larger caliber cannonballs against fortresses and other fortifications like that.
Post by: andrea on April 29, 2017, 05:45:26 pm
regarding cannon, as long as we keep both designs, I am fine with just producing the newer one. The old one can wait until we develop special shots that may require bigger gauge.
regarding taking troops from only the tundra garrison, that is fine for me IF we can do it. Still, I would not send everything.
@waffles oh, sorry. I misunderstood, I thought you meant to only KEEP the minimum apprentices to maintain cannons and crystals.
I think "we will send this, but not in enough quantities to feel the loss in the battlefield" kind of defeats the purpose of the contest. We have to give up something for it. Cavalry would be ideal, since I think it doesn't yet have a big role in the jungle.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 29, 2017, 05:45:59 pm
If that happens, we can easily push them out the next phase with the cavalry back in our hands and the homefield advantage. And they are incredibly unlikely going to be suddenly attacking the Tundra for no apparent reason to them this combat phase.
Remember that we're getting our forces back. They're only going to be absent for this phase.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 29, 2017, 05:47:07 pm
Quote
Remember that we're getting our forces back. They're only going to be absent for this phase.
if they live.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 29, 2017, 05:47:22 pm
Ignore as jungle is more Calvary friendly.
Post by: Roboson on April 29, 2017, 05:47:58 pm
Roboson, worst case scenario if we send our cavalry is that they attack and gain one section of the Tundra.
If that happens, we can easily push them out the next phase with the cavalry back in our hands and the homefield advantage. And they are incredibly unlikely going to be suddenly attacking the Tundra for no apparent reason to them this combat phase.
Remember that we're getting our forces back. They're only going to be absent for this phase.
We use our calvary in the jungle, to my knowledge, its not just sitting in the tundra. If we have calvary sitting in the tundra (which we shouldn't because that would be a waste), then we can send them. But I don't want to take calvary away from the front line.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 29, 2017, 05:49:08 pm
Roboson, worst case scenario if we send our cavalry is that they attack and gain one section of the Tundra.
If that happens, we can easily push them out the next phase with the cavalry back in our hands and the homefield advantage. And they are incredibly unlikely going to be suddenly attacking the Tundra for no apparent reason to them this combat phase.
Remember that we're getting our forces back. They're only going to be absent for this phase.
Cavalry is still used in the Jungle, just less so. I wouldn't send all.
We use our calvary in the jungle, to my knowledge, its not just sitting in the tundra. If we have calvary sitting in the tundra (which we shouldn't because that would be a waste), then we can send them. But I don't want to take calvary away from the front line.
We have a garisson on the Tundra because it borders the enemy.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 29, 2017, 05:51:28 pm
If Moskurg gains ground in the jungle this phase and the next, we're still fighting in the jungle.
If we gain ground in this phase, we still fight in the jungle next phase.
And again, if Moskurg decides that they want to suddenly attack the Tundra for 100% regular reasons, we still have a homefield advantage and it won't take forever to get the horses back - far shorter than it'd take for them to completely conquer the Tundra even with our homefield advantage and assuming our horses make a huge difference.
@Ebbor: Well, yeah. We're not sending all of our extra apprentices over. Like I said, the smallest amount possible to maintain the crystals and man the token amount of cannons if sent. And same for cavalry - just most of it.
Post by: Roboson on April 29, 2017, 05:55:26 pm
Honestly, we have a metric shit ton of apprentices now and they have the ability to antimagic sections of our forces. We don't really need a billion extra apprentices on the front lines. Its likely the enemy won't be sending many mages at all, and so if we send a ton, they'll definitely go with us.
Post by: andrea on April 29, 2017, 05:57:05 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 29, 2017, 05:57:53 pm
Yeah, their anti-magic is midrange now.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 29, 2017, 05:58:22 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 29, 2017, 06:03:34 pm
List of everything we're sending:
50% of new mages.
50% of tundra guard (including Calvary)
1 cannon
Enough crystal weapons to equip our soldiers and the natives
EDIT: Thats still a 50% increase in mages for the war this turn, which will increase again next turn (in relation to our previous turns). And it still leaves us a force to defend the homeland. Plus the increased number of crystal weapons will go towards the soldier's of our allies, which likely don't have as good weapons.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 29, 2017, 06:06:03 pm
20% of new mages.
40% of Tundra guard including cavalry
50% of our current cavalry
~5 cannons (reminder that they're just expensive; not very expensive)
Enough crystal weapons to equip our soldiers and the natives
Post by: Roboson on April 29, 2017, 06:07:56 pm
50% of our current cavalry
You want to take half our cavalry from the front lines?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 29, 2017, 06:09:11 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 29, 2017, 06:13:39 pm
30% of new mages
40% of tundra guard
60% of all cavalry not assigned to the jungle
3 cannons
Enough crystal weapons to equip our soldiers and their whole country.
Is this acceptable?
Post by: RAM on April 29, 2017, 07:18:07 pm
Order: Jungle conservation.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 29, 2017, 07:21:54 pm
And to Roboson: Counter counter off:
25% of new apprentices (I assume we were already referring to apprentices)
40% of tundra guard
40% Jungle Cavalry
50% all non-jungle cavalry
4 cannons
All the crystal weapons we can give them without sacrificing production in other areas.
Post by: RAM on April 29, 2017, 07:31:11 pm
If we kill the jungle then it is not just losing our advantage there but I can only see the bonus becoming more kegger-friendly if the trees are all gone.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 29, 2017, 07:32:35 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 29, 2017, 07:33:32 pm
And to Roboson: Counter counter off:
25% of new apprentices (I assume we were already referring to apprentices)
40% of tundra guard
40% Jungle Cavalry
50% all non-jungle cavalry
4 cannons
All the crystal weapons we can give them without sacrificing production in other areas.
Ugh, whatever. If our lack of cavalry in jungle costs us, its on you though. I'm not particularly fine with this, but in the spirit of moving things along, it will have to do.
Order: Jungle conservation.+1 for turning off the tower of frost (maybe send it somewhere else for a bit). Not for lowering our fire use, that can't be helped.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 29, 2017, 07:38:16 pm
Roboson, how about 30% jungle cavalry instead of 40%?
Post by: Roboson on April 29, 2017, 07:41:50 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 29, 2017, 07:51:36 pm
Final Proposal?
25% of new apprentices (I assume we were already referring to apprentices)
55% of tundra garrison (including cavalry)
25% Jungle Cavalry
50% all non-jungle cavalry
4 cannons
All the crystal weapons we can give them without sacrificing production in other areas.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 29, 2017, 08:12:20 pm
Alright, I raised tundra garrison to 55% and lowered jungle cavalry to 25%. I would have preferred higher amounts of cavalry, but I suppose this works.I'll second that list.
Final Proposal?
25% of new apprentices (I assume we were already referring to apprentices)
55% of tundra garrison (including cavalry)
25% Jungle Cavalry
50% all non-jungle cavalry
4 cannons
All the crystal weapons we can give them without sacrificing production in other areas.
Post by: RAM on April 29, 2017, 08:15:13 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 29, 2017, 08:29:09 pm
I assume that we have forces in the mountains, otherwise they could move in just by turning up. Just saying.
We do, they play Magic the Gathering basically all the time. Honestly, if we ever want a moral bonus, we just need to learn how to enchant these cards to show tiny holograms of the creatures depicted. Literally everyone would lose their shit.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 29, 2017, 08:29:52 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 29, 2017, 08:37:55 pm
Cultural victory.
You may be onto something there...
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 29, 2017, 09:10:09 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 29, 2017, 09:12:37 pm
Also: In the future, we could really get an advantage by making anti-magic scatterbombs.
The point wouldn't be the bomb part. It'd be the anti-magic parts. We could revise the anti-magic bomb to leave behind active anti-magic crystals and fit them into shells for the Hybrid Cannon. (This would hopefully take one revision, but if we wanted to play it extremely safe it could be two.)
Then the cannon would leave anti-magic "fallout" where it hits. Basically being able to tactically deny parts of the battlefield for enemy mages.
Post by: RAM on April 29, 2017, 09:52:46 pm
Still, the theory really ought to work because, well, they are making a magical effect, it just isn't being triggered by our antimagic which is mostly mundane. If we can get our antimagic to recognise theirs, then ours should defeat theirs in the ensuing fight.
I suppose that they 'might' be using backup mages to blow the antimagic particles, which would have to be physical, unless they have magic-wind which would probably be noticeable once it pushes our spellcraft formations around.
*idea for later: revise firballs to make craters to mess up open ground...
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 29, 2017, 10:11:48 pm
Steam Jet Engine: using our steam engine tech and a lesson from our steam hybrid Cannon it requires two mages. One to launch a streamlined fire ball. The other obscuring mist fog into chambers. The heat builds and steam works the same as others.
The difference? Pipes lead to a boiler value and stores pockets of steam until pressure builds and with a valve switch is released a jet of steam is released. The pressure and heat release in theory should help propulsion and be a bonus weapon in certain hands.
( ingredient in tank and iron clad unit idea.)
Edit: Keeps wheels/rollers just bonus water jet.
Post by: RAM on April 29, 2017, 10:18:57 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 29, 2017, 10:35:46 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 29, 2017, 10:41:03 pm
Am I the only person who thinks that combining our fireball and summon fog spell into a summon steam spell would save us a lot of work?
I would prefer to combine the fog and fireball spell into a death fire cloud.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 29, 2017, 10:45:38 pm
I guess we'll see what we need to address in the next combat phase.
Post by: RAM on April 29, 2017, 11:06:33 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 29, 2017, 11:09:03 pm
If we were Moskurg we could just add rifling...
Not sure what rifling has to do with Moskurg, but we may want to invest in rifling to fix our accuracy issue.
Post by: RAM on April 29, 2017, 11:57:28 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 30, 2017, 12:05:29 am
I honestly don't think that we need accuracy. We have volume of fire and can increase it. Getting a water spell would increase rate-of-fire and antimagic bombs are already cluster ammunition...
It would be nice if our cannons could be used to take out their ballistas. Or their mages. Or their commanders. Right now it sounds like we can aim them, but like all smoothbore weapons, they don't fly straight.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 30, 2017, 12:33:51 am
that's fixable, and honestly there is nothing preventing us from developing a spell to increase our accuracy.I honestly don't think that we need accuracy. We have volume of fire and can increase it. Getting a water spell would increase rate-of-fire and antimagic bombs are already cluster ammunition...
It would be nice if our cannons could be used to take out their ballistas. Or their mages. Or their commanders. Right now it sounds like we can aim them, but like all smoothbore weapons, they don't fly straight.
Post by: Roboson on April 30, 2017, 12:35:15 am
that's fixable, and honestly there is nothing preventing us from developing a spell to increase our accuracy.I honestly don't think that we need accuracy. We have volume of fire and can increase it. Getting a water spell would increase rate-of-fire and antimagic bombs are already cluster ammunition...
It would be nice if our cannons could be used to take out their ballistas. Or their mages. Or their commanders. Right now it sounds like we can aim them, but like all smoothbore weapons, they don't fly straight.
My point was we should fix it.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 30, 2017, 12:41:49 am
Danger Sense: Counter lucky shot by predicting the shot, thus dodging.
Ship Repair: Advantfe of Dog Wand. As our ship hulls are wood and can summon wood. We can fix our battered ships at sea. Just accelerate/induce haul growth to repair.
Land Ship: My take on steam engine water wagon. Has four huge wheels with blades. Armor. Steam engine with exhaust jet for blasting, mobile hybrid Cannon and slits (damn you phone) for bows/fire balls. Could double as troop transport or invest in a Sister unit as a ancient apc (hey it exists. Trojan horse. Just combat efficient.)
That design should kick ass in open plains the sand heathens love so much.
* 2 main designs left.
Post by: RAM on April 30, 2017, 01:02:50 am
Just couple ideas:Danger sense is new tech, but they have it so maybe we can get a cheapening from observing. I prefer living magic, we can make crystal shields that observe and defend autonomously. Their antimagic is getting more range, but it is still very short ranged, and we should be able to make a magic syphon that acts as a barrier against it, and it would stop prediction also.
Danger Sense: Counter lucky shot by predicting the shot, thus dodging.
Ship Repair: Advantfe of Dog Wand. As our ship hulls are wood and can summon wood. We can fix our battered ships at sea. Just accelerate/induce haul growth to repair.
Land Ship: My take on steam engine water wagon. Has four huge wheels with blades. Armor. Steam engine with exhaust jet for blasting, mobile hybrid Cannon and sluts for bows/fire balls. Could double as troop transport or invest in a Sister unit as a ancient apc (hey it exists. Trojan horse. Just combat efficient.)
I like transforming still-living trees(Something coastal for salt-resistance) into ship hulls, for the same effect, but more awesome...
sluts for bows/fire ballsWould be crippling effective against Moskurg, but we don't want to go there...
It would be nice if our cannons could be used to take out their ballistas. Or their mages. Or their commanders. Right now it sounds like we can aim them, but like all smoothbore weapons, they don't fly straight.Is mundane accuracy going to help with that? We can't even see them until we are inside of their preferred range. I figure that we are aiming at locations rather than materiel...
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 30, 2017, 01:15:35 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 01:19:34 am
Oh, and please don't start another long term project before we get the steam engines going.
Post by: Roboson on April 30, 2017, 01:26:42 am
Just couple ideas:Danger sense is new tech, but they have it so maybe we can get a cheapening from observing. I prefer living magic, we can make crystal shields that observe and defend autonomously. Their antimagic is getting more range, but it is still very short ranged, and we should be able to make a magic syphon that acts as a barrier against it, and it would stop prediction also.
Danger Sense: Counter lucky shot by predicting the shot, thus dodging.
Ship Repair: Advantfe of Dog Wand. As our ship hulls are wood and can summon wood. We can fix our battered ships at sea. Just accelerate/induce haul growth to repair.
Land Ship: My take on steam engine water wagon. Has four huge wheels with blades. Armor. Steam engine with exhaust jet for blasting, mobile hybrid Cannon and sluts for bows/fire balls. Could double as troop transport or invest in a Sister unit as a ancient apc (hey it exists. Trojan horse. Just combat efficient.)
I like transforming still-living trees(Something coastal for salt-resistance) into ship hulls, for the same effect, but more awesome...sluts for bows/fire ballsWould be crippling effective against Moskurg, but we don't want to go there...It would be nice if our cannons could be used to take out their ballistas. Or their mages. Or their commanders. Right now it sounds like we can aim them, but like all smoothbore weapons, they don't fly straight.Is mundane accuracy going to help with that? We can't even see them until we are inside of their preferred range. I figure that we are aiming at locations rather than materiel...
After doing a little research, I have found that ballistas really don't fire all that far. It seems that medieval ballistas have an effective range of around 500 meters, and for the first few centuries after their creation, it was only around 300 meters. I found a modern ballista that's so large it barely fits in the flat of a truck and is made of modern materials with modern methods. It has a range of 750-800 meters. That said it has rather impressive grouping at that range (I posted its firing data below). Still that's a best case scenario situation, as its made out of advanced modern materials, includes a motor to prepare it to fire, and is mounted on a flatbed.
Cannons from the same time periods (14th century) could fire a cannonball upwards of a mile (1600 meters). Which means if we get our cannon optimized to reasonable levels, we should never have an issue with ballistas taking them out.
So to answer your question, if we've gotten into range of them, we're too close. But as long as visibility is good, we should be able to see their position.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 30, 2017, 01:30:44 am
"Short, Medium, and Long-Range" would probably be grouped under "Short-to-medium Range" by todays standards.
That being said, if you continue down this line you will eventually out-pace Moskurg due to using a design five centuries ahead of the times (which I am kindly allowing)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 01:43:08 am
I'm thinking since it's less of a "special" thing and is harder to hard counter combined with the fact that it isn't a gamechanger right off the bat, they may move to make some tech/magic to help them in defense.
I'm just going to lay out my design and revision right now. I'll repost them once the actual phases start, but while we're waiting I may as well. Don't actually try to vote for anything until we reach the respective phases too, please.
Design: Disrupting Mist (This is a design because the goal is to make it more resistant to wind and to counter lucky strike)
Disrupting mist is an iteration of obscuring mist. It has two advantages: One is that the mist is magically "anchored" to its intended location, whether that location is mobile or not. This prevents wind and similar effects from merely blowing the mist away and rendering it less useful. It also means that as those summoning the mist don't have to constantly summon it to account for the mist being blown away and as such the mages casting Disrupting Mist have a bit more free time on their hands than those casting the previous version.
Secondly and more importantly, the mist works almost as a magical "jamming field" via the wonders of Mathematics. It doesn't disrupt magic performed within, but continuous effects will have greatly reduced effectiveness if not just fizzling outright and attempting to channel magic into something inside the fog from outside is impossibly difficult.
--------
The idea behind disrupting mist is to use a design for an iteration, allowing to do more than just a revision and not suffer penalties for being new. It's really just an improved Obscuring Mist. The first advantage is it being resistant to wind, but this is low-priority and I think it may not be the worst idea to scrap it in order to more reliably get the second advantage: Countering lucky strike. Lucky strike has been the bane of our forces' existence. We need to counter it and Disrupting Mist should do the trick.
Revision: Extremer-range Hybrid Cannons (Name pending.)
The name is again self-explanatory. Improvements to increase the range of our hybrid cannons even further.
What advantages does this have? It's simple. Any kind of success in this should allow hybrid cannons to outrange anything Moskurg can produce. It also allows us to strike even further behind enemy lines and/or have our hybrid cannons in more safe spots. It's also still more effective at sea. Right now, I'm predicting that hybrid cannons will just roughly even the playing field at sea. But with improved range, our ships will just straight-up outrange theirs.
I also want to improve on plant magic (for impromptu cover, skirmishing, and actual jungle restoration) and hybrid cannon accuracy. If we get the revision credit we can address one of these perhaps, but regardless - I believe the upper two things are more important.
Post by: Roboson on April 30, 2017, 01:46:44 am
That being said, if you continue down this line you will eventually out-pace Moskurg due to using a design five centuries ahead of the times (which I am kindly allowing)
Which I for one, am quite appreciative of. Steam power is a bit anachronistic for the 10th century, but man is it fun. And with some of the magic things going on, I don't think its outside the realm of possibility.
Edit:
@ChiefWaffles: I think a sort of magic jamming device would be lovely. Basically it would differ from antimagic in that it interrupts persistent effects. So it would jam their lucky strike and mind reading, but wouldn't interrupt wind or fireballs. I think that's something feasible we should look into after we finish up our naval advances.
Post by: andrea on April 30, 2017, 01:47:50 am
That said, thank you oh so kind GM.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 02:05:56 am
Alright, I raised tundra garrison to 55% and lowered jungle cavalry to 25%. I would have preferred higher amounts of cavalry, but I suppose this works.
Final Proposal?
25% of new apprentices (I assume we were already referring to apprentices)
55% of tundra garrison (including cavalry)
25% Jungle Cavalry
50% all non-jungle cavalry
4 cannons
All the crystal weapons we can give them without sacrificing production in other areas.
Objection !
I really don't like the idea of stripping part of the mountain forces. An enemy attack there would be devastating, costing us our cannons, swords, steam engine and armor. I formulated the idea of stripping the Tundra precisely so we could avoid that
Post by: Azzuro on April 30, 2017, 02:16:30 am
Alright, I raised tundra garrison to 55% and lowered jungle cavalry to 25%. I would have preferred higher amounts of cavalry, but I suppose this works.I'll second that list.
Final Proposal?
25% of new apprentices (I assume we were already referring to apprentices)
55% of tundra garrison (including cavalry)
25% Jungle Cavalry
50% all non-jungle cavalry
4 cannons
All the crystal weapons we can give them without sacrificing production in other areas.
I would prefer to send ALL the new apprentices off to fight. Look at it this way:
-it's a relatively risk-free way for them to gain combat experience, given that the enemy has no magic.
-Moskurg has the anti-magic advantage, so I doubt spamming apprentices would have more than a marginal impact on the current battlefield. It's a matter of comparative advantage, those apprentices would be better used helping us gain that revision credit than struggling against Moskurg antimagic.
I'm assuming 'new' here means the extra apprentices that we get from having spent the expense credit on the Academy, while the usual intake of apprentices sent to the battlefield remains unchanged.
Oh, and to chime in on the whole ballista-vs-cannon discussion, they are fundamentally different weapons. As I understand it, ballistae were primarily anti-personnel weapons, short ranged with extreme accuracy, and were not only used in siege warfare but also in regular battles where there was time to set them up. Ballistae eventually fell out of use with the decline of the Roman Empire, supplanted by the crossbow in the anti-personnel role and catapults and trebuchets in the siege weapon role.
In contrast, early cannons were only ever intended as anti-fortification weapons, and had the accuracy thereof, being used only in siege warfare to plink away at enemy walls outside the range of archers. Our hybrid cannon, being steam-powered can't be easily compared to gunpowder cannons. However, it seems to have a far shorter range and higher accuracy than normal cannons.
EDIT: Ebbor, I don't think losing a single piece of territory in the mountains would instantly raise the cost of our metal items, but rather remove the bonus we get for designing new ones. Can the GM confirm?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 02:18:37 am
And -1 to any proposal involving sending all of the new apprentices. I'm nearly certain that combat experience is not modeled in the combat, and their new anti-magic doesn't make our apprentices useless. Just because it has mid-range doesn't mean it envelops all of mid-range all the time.
Post by: Azzuro on April 30, 2017, 02:31:17 am
I'm pretty sure losing a single piece in the mountains would lose the metal bonus. But it's definitely possible that it doesn't. After all, we get the bonus for completely securing the mountains.
And -1 to any proposal involving sending all of the new apprentices. I'm nearly certain that combat experience is not modeled in the combat, and their new anti-magic doesn't make our apprentices useless. Just because it has mid-range doesn't mean it envelops all of mid-range all the time.
Er, that's what I'm saying. Losing part of the mountains would mean we don't get the 'expense credit' for designing new primarily metal items anymore, but it shouldn't retroactively remove it for existing items and drive the cost up.
Anyway, I really doubt Moskurg would choose this turn to attack the mountains. I mean, we have the advantage in the mountains, and having just secured a piece of the jungle, they should be choosing to focus their efforts there where we're slowly losing rather than in the mountains, where we have the climate and terrain advantage.
And regarding the issue of the new apprentices, I was thinking that our magic is the greatest advantage we have over whatever Moskurg may offer. They have a numerical advantage over us, so they'll be able to send relatively more troops, who are also more adapted to the desert climate of the foreign land. So our only advantage over Moskurg is that we can send away more mages.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 02:33:24 am
And apprentices: I personally wouldn't be against 50% or under of our new apprentices, but I'm still pushing for ~25%.
Ebbor: If you don't like my proposal, mind adjusting the parts you don't like?
Post by: RAM on April 30, 2017, 02:44:08 am
Post by: Andres on April 30, 2017, 02:44:54 am
That being said, if you continue down this line you will eventually out-pace Moskurg due to using a design five centuries ahead of the times (which I am kindly allowing)And this time it actually is magic that's responsible!
Post by: Azzuro on April 30, 2017, 02:58:52 am
Quote
Final Proposal?
50% of new apprentices (I assume we were already referring to apprentices)
55% of tundra garrison (including cavalry)
25% Jungle Cavalry
50% all non-jungle cavalry
4 cannons
All the crystal weapons we can give them without sacrificing production in other areas.
Edited. It's assumed that the foreigners will be providing supply and transport for them, right?
Also, while I really like the Disrupting Mist design, can we please please get around to making the Fog-O-War ships next turn, barring Hypothetical Moskurg Magical Superweapons? I mean, it's been goodness knows how many turns since we had the idea but didn't getting around to doing it for various reasons, and I wouldn't like Moskurg to suddenly capture the Western Sea and cause the Jungle front to collapse as well, undoing our efforts.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 03:04:22 am
Our cannons use mages to operate. That means that we need those apprentices to deploy them at full efficiency. Even more so if we still want to use all other spells.
Quote
In contrast, early cannons were only ever intended as anti-fortification weapons, and had the accuracy thereof, being used only in siege warfare to plink away at enemy walls outside the range of archers. Our hybrid cannon, being steam-powered can't be easily compared to gunpowder cannons. However, it seems to have a far shorter range and higher accuracy than normal cannons
Early cannons had fire rates measured in single digits per day. Ours fires much faster. The comparison does not work.
Adjusted Proposal?
25% of new apprentices (I assume we were already referring to apprentices)
55% of tundra garrison (including cavalry)
25% Jungle Cavalry
4 cannons
All the crystal weapons we can give them without sacrificing production in other areas
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 03:07:01 am
And @RAM: That feels a bit like it'd be too much of a progression away from current mist designs. Currently our mist is just magically-summoned dense mist. Your thing while cool and something that should be visited on in the future, is somewhat similar but too far off. The core idea behind disrupting mist is "magically-charged mist".
And my iteration on Ebbor and Azzuro's proposals: (Basically just Ebbor's but with +5% apprentices to make up for the loss in non-jungle cavalry)
Final Proposal V.2
30% of new apprentices (I assume we were already referring to apprentices)
55% of tundra garrison (including cavalry)
25% Jungle Cavalry
4 cannons
All the crystal weapons we can give them without sacrificing production in other areas
Post by: Andres on April 30, 2017, 03:14:57 am
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 30, 2017, 03:23:18 am
Neither side develops anything related to skirmishes, so the raids are once again mostly even, leaning towards Arstotzka.
The jungles this year result in combat developing a fundamental shift in practice.
We deploy our new cannons and our Theatre Commander immediately makes good use of them. Once again we approach the edge of Moskurg's area of control, and once again their ballistas begin raining death with the same unnatural accuracy as before - in greater numbers, even. Our commanders hold back, however, staying just out of range. Our mages are not so lucky and must be closer to the front lines, but their sacrifice is not in vain. Our cannons thunder in response to their hailstorm, and the first cannon barrage in Forenia's history go sailing towards their lines.
The foolish Moskurgs do not know well enough to keep their troops back; they were clearly expecting a counter-charge from our infantry and calvary to stop their artillery, not a barrage of our own. Their men are standing in front of their siege weaponry and our cannon balls go ripping through their lines. They die in droves in the first volley, and as the second, third, and fourth hit our troops charge forward to take advantage of that confusion. Our men are still torn to shreds as they charge through the jungle, and the progress is made slow by the thick mud generated by the non-stop rain and lack of vegetation, but by the time they reach Moskurg lines the battle goes in our favor. Most of the casters operating the cannons die as Moskurg bolts come down on them, but with their anti-magic keeping us at bay they do more damage from this range than they would casting fireballs. It's a difficult fight the first time without our traditional fireballs crashing into massed Moskurg troops, but we win the first battle. In subsequent fights the battles are much less in our favor; Moskurg keeps their men back until they see us charge, then moving their men forward to meet us. Our inferior accuracy means at long-range they can snipe us to death before we can return the favor, but the first battle was so devastating it's practically even. It doesn't help that our cannons explode with alarming frequency. Even when they don't, a misfire will result in the cannon jamming and being essentially useless for the battle. The fact that our mages are almost uniformly restricted to this one use is also frustrating, even though they wouldn't do very much otherwise due to Moskurg Anti-Magic.
When they return the assault they find the same thing happening; their men are shot to death before they can get in appropriate range, and once ragged from artillery shelling they break and rout. They can still out-snipe our artillery, however, and through patience they are generally able to gain the advantage. It doesn't go well for us, but we don't lose a significant amount of ground. Another battle like this and we will, though - Arstotzka is on the back foot.
Our Theatre Commander is in love with our new artillery. He thanks the design team with tears in his eyes for finally taking his advice. He asks for even longer range artillery - by holding them at a more extreme distance, we can kill them without ever having to commit our troops. More accurate artillery would also be nice; failing that, area-of-effect ammunition would be great. Something to deflect their shots would also be nice, if you can manage it.
Neither side gains a section of jungle.
Moskurg surprises us with an assault on the mountains.
Our men, having grown complacent with their "magic cards", do not expect the assault. Moskurg stones crash into our ramparts from down below, and with alarm we find our arrows are less effective than before due to Moskurg armor. New cannons, freshly sent from the capital, do a decent job at beating back Moskurg troops but it's not enough. The cannons can't be angled down far enough to hit down-slope, and once in our blind-spot the Moskurg artillery can shoot up at us. Our castles fall and for the first time in decades Arstotzka loses a section of mountain to Moskrug. We will not gain any further metallurgy bonuses until we retake the mountains.
The Theatre Commander asks you to design a cannon with a greater range of fire to allow us to fire down-slope at invaders. He also assures you that he has whipped the complacency out of our men in the mountains and that we will not be caught off-guard again. He also suggest that perhaps Moskurg suffers from the same problem - an assault on the plains might catch the enemy off-guard after so many years of inaction?
Moskurg gains a section of Mountain.
The seas reach a stalemate.
Moskurg artillery is much more accurate, but Arstotzkan cannons do a better job of doing damage when they hit. The battle on the seas results in both sides at extreme ranges pelting one another until their ships sink. Moskurg does slightly better, as their accuracy allows them to hit us more reliably. We tank most of their hits due to our heavier ships, but we need to do something here or else we will lose the seas next year. Arstotzka is on the back foot.
The Theatre Commander asks for either longer-range projectiles or - more preferably - something more accurate. Fire projectiles would be nice too, since they'd be especially effective at sea. Or if we could catch Moskurg ships, we could simply use our fireballs and sink them out-right.
Neither side gains ground in the Western Sea.
Revision Credit: Arstotzka has offered a more attractive mercenary force and won the revision credit. Their troops are gone for the time being, and should the battle go well overseas they will return next year.
It is 929, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 929 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
NEW RULES. READ.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Azzuro on April 30, 2017, 03:24:37 am
Quote
Final Proposal V.2 - Supporters (2): Azzuro, Chiefwaffles
30% of new apprentices (I assume we were already referring to apprentices)
55% of tundra garrison (including cavalry)
25% Jungle Cavalry
4 cannons
All the crystal weapons we can give them without sacrificing production in other areas
I'm fine with this.
And I'm also fine with stripping the Mountain garrison, given that it's supremely unlikely that they're going to attack there when they could push their gains in the Jungle. Barring ATHATH 'accidentally' stumbling into this thread, anyway.
EDIT: NINJA'D BY THE GM MY GOD
EDIT: So we didn't reduce the mountain garrison? That's a good thing after all.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 03:27:38 am
We have better defenses there than in the Jungle, and in the Jungle we held.
After all, in the Jungle we lost the ambush bonus, while we still have it in the mountains.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 03:29:42 am
Goddamnit.
And I'm also fine with stripping the Mountain garrison, given that it's supremely unlikely that they're going to attack there when they could push their gains in the Jungle. Barring ATHATH 'accidentally' stumbling into this thread, anyway.This is irony, right?
@Ebbor: Pretty sure we lost because our forces were complacent. I'd guess that barring Moskurg designs made to exploit the mountains, we should be able to push them out next phase. Let's not get too cocky though.
Anyways, the cannon clearly needs to be improved:
- Range - Would be helpful in general. Both in the Jungle and at Sea.
- Accuracy - Also helpful in general in any theatre.
- Mundane Use - It would be really nice if we could have non-mages use it. This would open it up to seeing more use and let our mages do other things.
- Reliability - Apparently its tendency to explode/break is actually hurting its performance.
Design: Disrupting Mist (This is a design because the goal is to make it more resistant to wind and to counter lucky strike)
Disrupting mist is an iteration of obscuring mist. It has two advantages: One is that the mist is magically "anchored" to its intended location, whether that location is mobile or not. This prevents wind and similar effects from merely blowing the mist away and rendering it less useful. It also means that as those summoning the mist don't have to constantly summon it to account for the mist being blown away and as such the mages casting Disrupting Mist have a bit more free time on their hands than those casting the previous version.
Secondly and more importantly, the mist works almost as a magical "jamming field" via the wonders of Mathematics. It doesn't disrupt magic performed within, but continuous effects will have greatly reduced effectiveness if not just fizzling outright and attempting to channel magic into something inside the fog from outside is impossibly difficult.
Quote
Designs
1 - Disrupting Mist: Chiefwaffles
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 03:32:11 am
We need to get rid of Lucky strike.
For revisions I think we should actually go for accuracy instead so we can actually snipe their ballista allowing for our men to get closer to the front lines. If we're feeling bold with the revision credit (yessss) then better range would make our artillery reign supreme next battle.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 03:33:46 am
Quote
Revision Credit: Arstotzka has offered a more attractive mercenary force and won the revision credit. Their troops are gone for the time being, and should the battle go well overseas they will return next year.\
Question : What forces did we actually send, because we don't know. We weren't finished discussing stuff.
Oh, and were they gone for this turn, or for the next?
Post by: evictedSaint on April 30, 2017, 03:38:07 am
They will be gone for the battle that just occurred. They will be back for next year, if they survive overseas.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 03:38:29 am
Quote
Design: Disrupting Mist (This is a design because the goal is to make it more resistant to wind and to counter lucky strike)
Disrupting mist is an iteration of obscuring mist. It has two advantages: One is that the mist is magically "anchored" to its intended location, whether that location is mobile or not. This prevents wind and similar effects from merely blowing the mist away and rendering it less useful. It also means that as those summoning the mist don't have to constantly summon it to account for the mist being blown away and as such the mages casting Disrupting Mist have a bit more free time on their hands than those casting the previous version.
Secondly and more importantly, the mist works almost as a magical "jamming field" via the wonders of Mathematics. It doesn't disrupt magic performed within, but continuous effects will have greatly reduced effectiveness if not just fizzling outright and attempting to channel magic into something inside the fog from outside is impossibly difficult.
Question. What is this supposed to accomplish?
Seems it would only sabotage our own magic. I mean, the enemy does not have any continous magical effects that are cast on our own forces.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 03:40:40 am
Jungle: Losing
Mountains: Losing
Seas: Losing
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 03:40:53 am
Note how the design includes "It doesn't disrupt magic performed within". So if we don't get awful rolls, we can still use it on our mages without any problems.
It may have problems with crystal weaponry, but it's not like we're using that stuff right now anyways.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 03:42:39 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 03:43:26 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 03:44:23 am
It's part of the Divination Spellbook,
Quote
Lucky Strike: Magical guidance makes a squad shoot or strike true far more often than usual. Expensive.
It's basically the mages foreseeing where the enemy is going to be.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 30, 2017, 03:45:40 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 03:46:57 am
Magical guidance implies it's a continuous effect?
Evicted: Do we know definitively if Lucky Strike is a continuous effect on arrows for the duration of their flight or is it like a spell cast on the people firing the arrows?
I know about the anti-magic charms thing, but they have pretty small areas, right? If you cut the guidance out on a missile a second before impact not much is going to change.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 30, 2017, 03:49:42 am
Post by: RAM on April 30, 2017, 03:50:41 am
Anyways, I am out of time without reading anything aside from mountains and new rules, good luck, good luck!
Post by: evictedSaint on April 30, 2017, 03:51:58 am
Query, did our forestry efforts in the mountain do anything?
You manage some minor growth in the mountains, but the rocky soil is poor for plant growth and provides no meaningful advantage.
Post by: Azzuro on April 30, 2017, 03:53:17 am
Design: Rifled Barrels
By further elongating the length of the barrel and inscribing matching 'spirals' on the inside and the rock shell, our mathemagicians have promised improvements in both the accuracy of the shots fired and the range. If necessary, they will sacrifice the horse-drawn mobility of the weapon, although an essential requirement that it be mountable on ships remains.
Quote
Designs
2 - Disrupting Mist: Chiefwaffles, Azzuro
0 - Rifled Barrels:
I would really have liked to get the Fog-O-War running, but I think we'd best wait until we regain the mountains.
Edit: I don't think we're losing in the mountains as you put it ebbor, we just got caught off guard. If we get in a good ground combat design this turn we should be able to push them out next turn.
Fakeedit: Quit posting guys, let me get my post in already!
Doubleedit: I was under the impression that Lucky Strike was an enchantment on the ammunition, providing it terminal guidance to its target. Such that even if the terminal guidance cut out only 2 metres away, it will still continue on to hit its target or negligibly close to it as it's so close. Thus by increasing the antimagic boundaries, we should be able to counter it, causing the arrow to miss the eyeslits or armour gaps.
Tripleedit: If that's true, I really can't think of a way to counter Lucky Strike. And I don't recall we had such an order, RAM.
Quadrupleedit:I give up editing.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 03:55:05 am
Quote
Design: Rifled Barrels
By further elongating the length of the barrel and inscribing matching 'spirals' on the inside and the rock shell, our mathemagicians have promised improvements in both the accuracy of the shots fired and the range. If necessary, they will sacrifice the horse-drawn mobility of the weapon, although an essential requirement that it be mountable on ships remains.
This is a revision, not a design.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 03:57:30 am
Also, what Ebbor said.
I'm just hoping Disrupting Mist will be enough. Worst-case scenario, it serves as a counter for any enchanted-type things Moskurg may come up with.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 04:00:31 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 04:02:27 am
Why do you disagree with my assessment of it not hurting our own forces?
And I'm not super attached to Disrupting Mist, either. If someone comes up with a better way to counteract Lucky Strike I'm game.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 30, 2017, 04:04:48 am
It is designed to be actively maintained by a squad of mages who will be under it.
Post by: Light forger on April 30, 2017, 04:07:32 am
So lets talk about their anti-magic before they countered our lance we where doing quite well and if left alone it could mess with our magic cannon. In my mind there are three possible ways the staff works. A: just like our anti-magic crystals but, it also affect our crystal weapons B: It dispels any magical constructs or weaving in the area but, doesn't affect the amount of magic in the area around it (basically the inverse of how our anti-magic charms work) C: Some kind of forced mundanity field that just outright stops all forms of magic in the area outright. So with this info I have guessed/gleamed lets try to counter it.
Anchored Crystal Weapons
Normal crystal constructs need magic to work. This is provided by either magic stored within the crystal by a mage or magic stored within a gemstone. Anchored Crystal Weapons are far beyond that and for all real proposes are 'mundane' and not only don't need magic to exist and, are more or less permanent. In order to create this type of weapon a mage needs a gemstone able to be as a magical catalyst and a massive amount of magic. Once the weapon is formed it's a near prefect example of an crystal weapon unbreakable, impossibly sharp and incredibly light. The main weakness is the gemstone used as the catalyst which is located in the hilt while the rest of weapon is unbreakable the gemstone can be damaged or destroyed and in doing so damaging or destroying the weapon. The key part of this is the weapon is that it's otherwise mundane their is no long term spell to disrupt, nor magic to cut off and it should be unaffected by any mundanity field.
So this will hopefully do a few things A: let us use our magic weapons again B: give us a way to counter their anti-magic(by not using 'magic' *inception noises*) and C: If all else fails we still get some nice fancy weapons for the day when we do counter their anti-magic. Oh and for the revision we just improve our cannons.
Anchored Crystal Weapons
Anyway I'm off to bed so you folks can tell me how stupid of an idea this is in the morning.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 04:12:44 am
@VoidSlayer and the Crystal Canopy: Definitely a possible choice. It is out of range of their anti-magic, but I don't like the prospect of it becoming useless again if a Moskurg anti-magic mage sneaks up on a cannon emplacement. I wonder though, if we were to do this, could we use a revision to make it Anchored?
If so, then we could maybe do that during this revision phase, but I think if we do Range + Accuracy for cannons we'll gain the advantage at sea and at land. Doing an anchored revision the revision phase after the coming one could work, since we can assume Moskurg won't upgrade their anti-magic for ""no reason"" before next combat phase.
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Designs
2 - Disrupting Mist: Chiefwaffles, Azzuro
1 - Crystal Canopy: VoidSlayer
0 - Rifled Barrels:
Wow, no posts since I started writing. That may be a first.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 04:14:34 am
You are assuming that the antimagic works in a certain way , based on pure speculation, and hoping that it will work. If you want to counter lucky strike, write counter lucky strike. Otherwise we will end up with something useless.
Evicted Saint : Have we captured some of the Moskurgian Anti-magic Staves?
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Our men are still torn to shreds as they charge through the jungle, and the progress is made slow by the thick mud generated by the non-stop rain and lack of vegetation, but by the time they reach Moskurg lines the battle goes in our favor.
Our frost tower is still not cold enough, if we still have rain.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 30, 2017, 04:17:31 am
It is true though that we have no way to counter the enemy anti magic right now.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 04:18:43 am
Evicted: If I were to write something along the lines of "Counter lucky strike" in the description for Disrupted mist instead of the anti-magic stuff, would that get a penalty on its rolls?
Also Ebbor, what am I assuming about anti-magic? I'm not saying "use anti-magic" but rather "try to create this effect" which is basically the entire point of making new spells in the game.
We did capture staves, by the way. But in the process they were broken and nothing of value was gleamed from it.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 04:19:40 am
Also Ebbor, what am I assuming about anti-magic? I'm not saying "use anti-magic" but rather "try to create this effect" which is basically the entire point of making new spells in the game.
The problem is that you're trying to counter a specific type of magic, while you don't know if that type of magic is too blame. That is the issue. If you guess wrong, everything is pointless.
Anyway, we can disprove your theory easily.
GM : Do Moskurgian arrows follow normal trajectories, or do they appear to steer mid-air.
If it's the latter, the mist may work, because it means the magic happens while the arrows are underway. If it's the former, then it means the magic happens at the launch point, and thus the mist won't work.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 30, 2017, 04:24:10 am
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Evicted: If I were to write something along the lines of "Counter lucky strike" in the description for Disrupted mist instead of the anti-magic stuff, would that get a penalty on its rolls?
If you can describe how you counter it in a reasonable fashion, I can work with it. That being said, revisions that just say "Counter XYZ" will not work, period.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 30, 2017, 04:32:28 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 04:32:45 am
What about a chaotic winds spell. Presumably our own magic is more powerful close to us, if there was a field of hot and cold air creating crazy winds it could knock the arrows and bolts around a little to knock them off course.
NO NEW MAGIC
We do not know Wind magic. That's Moskurg.
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 30, 2017, 04:38:27 am
What about a chaotic winds spell. Presumably our own magic is more powerful close to us, if there was a field of hot and cold air creating crazy winds it could knock the arrows and bolts around a little to knock them off course.
NO NEW MAGIC
We do not know Wind magic. That's Moskurg.
Right, we know armor and shields and crystals. Normally a giant metal roof wouldnt be something you could take onto the battlefield but with magic who knows.
We could make immobile tanks almost...
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 04:56:46 am
Tuneable Antimagic Charm
This antimagic is quite simple, a charm that is 10 times as large as any other charm. It would be completely unaffordable, if it were not made from summoned crystal. Even so, it's still relatively expensive, but not a national effort. To avoid the heat from cancelling spells to cause it to simply melt through the ground, it is designed to only cancel a single spell at a time.
Since each type of magical spell has it's own frequency, by tuning the crystal to that frequency, it ceases to function across the entire battlefield.
Mk 2 Magic Cannon
This magic cannon has seen a few very interesting upgrades. Firstly, the barrel has been inscribed with a cold spell taken from our frost tower. This means that it never heats up, but always maintain it's cool. This improves both firerate and reliability The second improvement is the steam recycler. This small spell is triggered by the projectile passing through the muzzle. It puts the muzzle cold spell into overdrive, instantly flashing the steam back to water. This sucks the steam back into the cannon, ensuring no new water needs to be added.
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Designs
2 - Disrupting Mist: Chiefwaffles, Azzuro
1 - Crystal Canopy: VoidSlayer
0 - Rifled Barrels:
1 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm : 10ebbor10
0 - Mk2 Steam cannon
I feel that the charm is much more likely to work, because we already know all magic relies on certain magical frequences. Just increase the range and pick one. Much more likely to work than trying to :
- Improve Mist range
- Improve Mist durability
- Trying to cancel their spells but not ours
Post by: Andres on April 30, 2017, 05:03:59 am
Their projectiles are doing a major amount of damage to us. Making ourselves more lucky is the most effective and cost effective way of dealing with that. They cannot be destroyed such as with physical obstacles and will actually work, unlike the Disrupting Mist. Disrupting Mist will only work if their projectiles are constantly having magic channeled in them, and even if that is how it works, by the time they enter the mist the projectiles have already been rendered accurate anyway, so it's pointless.
Lucky Charms is also good offensively, unlike Disrupting Mist which is only good defensively. Our cannons' poor accuracy will not matter as much with them, and they would be less likely to explode too. There may even be some utility outside of combat...
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2 - Disrupting Mist: Chiefwaffles, Azzuro
1 - Crystal Canopy: VoidSlayer
0 - Rifled Barrels:
1 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm : 10ebbor10
0 - Mk2 Steam cannon
1 - Lucky Charms: Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 05:06:10 am
A : Opening a new field of magic
B : Trying to beat, in this new field of magic, an enemy Spell
C : Trying, in this new field of magic, to also replicate the effect of that enemy spell.
It's too ambitious.
Post by: Roboson on April 30, 2017, 05:07:08 am
Ever do a math problem and forget to carry the 1 or miss a minus sign somewhere and come up with a completely wrong answer because of that minor change? That's how this works. It uses the principles of mathemagics to royally bone the intricate spell work leading to a "wrong answer" result from their spell. That causes the whole spell to come toppling down.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 05:17:34 am
So the Tuneable Antimagic Charm is basically a huge anti-magic charm with a large radius that cancels out one spell
Shouldn't the anti-magic effect it creates dispel the summoned crystal? I also think it should either be extreme theatre-wide range with national effort or mid-range with expensive.
Though I'm worried that it introduces too many vital things at once. While I'm positive we won't get penalties for it being too new, in order for it to work the Tuneable Charm has to have a large radius and the ability to selectively cancel out spells (and a good expense level). If it doesn't have any of these things, it won't work. Small radius, we have the "guided missile with tracking cut out 1 second from impact" problem. No selective cancelling, then it makes the things it's supposed to protect useless. If it has too high of an expense level (Reminder that our cannons are just Expensive) then it can't be deployed to protect enough things. Unless it gets a good enough range.
If it works, though, it'd be great.
It's a good idea, but crystal canopy seems like it could work a bit more. Easier to design, almost certainly no higher than expensive, etc.
Yet the summoned crystal dispelling and whether it could block ballista shots still remain flaws.
Possible alternate idea: (More of a brainstorm type thing - not submitting this unless someone really thinks its a good idea)
Tower of Frost - Tuneable Anti-magic Field
Kind of a revision, but too serious to properly work as one. The Tower of Frost, in addition to its weather-controlling capabilities, also extends a tuneable anti-magic field over the battlefield, cancelling out one spell as outlined in Tuneable Antimagic Charm. The idea in this design is that it adds another level of familiarity to the new design. The Tower of Frost is already theatre-encompassing so ideally the range would be less of an issue in terms of rolls.
Going to remove my vote for Disrupting Mist for now. I'll probably choose later or tomorrow. I'm not completely giving up disrupting mist, though.
Quote
1 - Disrupting Mist: Azzuro
1 - Crystal Canopy: VoidSlayer
0 - Rifled Barrels:
1 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm : 10ebbor10
0 - Mk2 Steam cannon
1 - Lucky Charms: Andres
Post by: Andres on April 30, 2017, 05:20:05 am
We have no luck related magic. Trying to do this is, is :A : Yes, this is an issue, but this is worth is. Certainly more worth it than that worthless plant magic or developing crystal magic that makes our mineral advantage pointless. It can be used for many different things by many different people, buffing everything we do at relatively low risk of failure.
A : Opening a new field of magic
B : Trying to beat, in this new field of magic, an enemy Spell
C : Trying, in this new field of magic, to also replicate the effect of that enemy spell.
It's too ambitious.
B : The enemy spell has no competition. It has no way to defend against a spell trying to defeat it. Furthermore, it has a lot more applications than merely beating an enemy spell.
C : It is not the same spell. It's less powerful but it has much broader application. The low power is all that's needed to defeat the enemy spell. Nudging a projectile only a little bit to the side is a lot easier to do than ensuring a projectile hits with full accuracy with so many variables involved. Their spell probably only compensates for mundane challenges, not magical ones.
I would like to reiterate how worthless the plant design was and that it was a complete waste of a design phase. I have no idea what possessed those who voted for it to design it, even going against the desires of our commanders yet again.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Roboson on April 30, 2017, 05:24:39 am
I would like to reiterate how worthless the plant design was and that it was a complete waste of a design phase. I have no idea what possessed those who voted for it to design it, even going against the desires of our commanders yet again.
Glory to Arstotzka.
It was a fine idea, but ended up not being nearly as powerful as those who vote for it intended. Happens, no need to be salty over it.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 05:27:22 am
The plant design was essential to not lose in the Jungle. Even now we're fighting at a disadvantage, but if it weren't for the spell it'd be much worse. And what Roboson said - designs aren't just a result of their initial idea, but also the rolls (and GM Decision) and revisions behind them. I'm certain we're one revision away from being able to use the spell for shielding and in skirmishes and to use it to actually start restoring the jungle. But we have more important issues than that. The jungle disappearing problem has been reduced to the point where we can focus on other things.
And Andres, it's still a spell in a completely new area that we have never touched before. One of the primary reasons we're still losing ground is our tendency to make cool things then abandon them before they're useful. We have things more important than new spells and it's possible to get the desired effect without going into a completely new field.
When the design results are rolled with d6's, that means a -1, which we will get due to the complete new-ness of the design, is a significant penalty. We want to minimize the -1's.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 05:36:12 am
What has happened is that the Jungle cover was never an apocalyptic -this will loose us the terrain- problem. It was a minor problem that was overstated, and failing to adress that has shown that it was just that, a minor problem.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 05:36:46 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 05:38:01 am
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, and the progress is made slow by the thick mud generated by the non-stop rain and lack of vegetation,
Quite clearly, the Jungle degradation was not prevented. It was simply never as big a problem as you thought.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 05:43:52 am
Evicted, did the Plant Growth spell end up giving us any noticeable benefits in terms of preventing Moskurgian advantages from lack of Jungle terrain?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 05:47:44 am
Ebbor:
So the Tuneable Antimagic Charm is basically a huge anti-magic charm with a large radius that cancels out one spell
Shouldn't the anti-magic effect it creates dispel the summoned crystal? I also think it should either be extreme theatre-wide range with national effort or mid-range with expensive.
Our anti magic charms have never dissipated crystals.
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Though I'm worried that it introduces too many vital things at once. While I'm positive we won't get penalties for it being too new, in order for it to work the Tuneable Charm has to have a large radius and the ability to selectively cancel out spells (and a good expense level). If it doesn't have any of these things, it won't work. Small radius, we have the "guided missile with tracking cut out 1 second from impact" problem. No selective cancelling, then it makes the things it's supposed to protect useless. If it has too high of an expense level (Reminder that our cannons are just Expensive) then it can't be deployed to protect enough things. Unless it gets a good enough range.
If it works, though, it'd be great.
You need a certain amount of complexity to make it work, I stripped everything out that couldn't be adjusted further.
We have no luck related magic. Trying to do this is, is :A : Yes, this is an issue, but this is worth is. Certainly more worth it than that worthless plant magic or developing crystal magic that makes our mineral advantage pointless. It can be used for many different things by many different people, buffing everything we do at relatively low risk of failure.
A : Opening a new field of magic
B : Trying to beat, in this new field of magic, an enemy Spell
C : Trying, in this new field of magic, to also replicate the effect of that enemy spell.
It's too ambitious.
B : The enemy spell has no competition. It has no way to defend against a spell trying to defeat it. Furthermore, it has a lot more applications than merely beating an enemy spell.
C : It is not the same spell. It's less powerful but it has much broader application. The low power is all that's needed to defeat the enemy spell. Nudging a projectile only a little bit to the side is a lot easier to do than ensuring a projectile hits with full accuracy with so many variables involved. Their spell probably only compensates for mundane challenges, not magical ones.
I would like to reiterate how worthless the plant design was and that it was a complete waste of a design phase. I have no idea what possessed those who voted for it to design it, even going against the desires of our commanders yet again.
Glory to Arstotzka.
A: We never aimed to make worthless plant spells. They aimed to make instant Jungle. Same will happen to you. You aim for super lucky, you're going to get a minor improvement in dice games.
B & C : These are just hopefull assumptions
It's kind of funny to see you complaining about something while making the exact same error.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 05:52:09 am
It's not a huge issue, but it's risky.
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Our anti magic charms have never dissipated crystals.Ah, I assumed wrongly then. Still, what happens if enemy anti-magic gets within range? Then it's made useless. Again, this isn't some critical issue, but it's something to consider.
And what's your opinion on making it an addition to the frost tower to possibly make the range part easier to do?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 06:21:47 am
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"Lack of vegetation" does not imply that suddenly the jungle is gone, and it does not mean that we're fighting at an extreme disadvantage. We're fighting at a minor disadvantage, but I'm saying it's minor because the worst was prevented by the plant growth spell. But we may as well just get the factual answer.
Evicted, did the Plant Growth spell end up giving us any noticeable benefits in terms of preventing Moskurgian advantages from lack of Jungle terrain?
Asking the wrong question.
The correct question is :
Did it prevent the degradation of Jungle terrain. That question has already been asked and answered.
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Can we at least confirm that the jungle is safe now?
-If you mean from vanishing, then no. Plant magic is decent at fixing small portions, but unless it stops snowing in the tropical jungle the ecosystem will continue to fade.
But anyway, we're getting away from the point, which is :
New Magic is never an instant solution
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That's the point about the complexity. Even if it's as simple as it can be, that may not be enough.
What must be done must be done.
Quote
Ah, I assumed wrongly then. Still, what happens if enemy anti-magic gets within range? Then it's made useless. Again, this isn't some critical issue, but it's something to consider.
It has battlefield wide effect, if the enemy gets to our crystal, we have been defeated.
Quote
And what's your opinion on making it an addition to the frost tower to possibly make the range part easier to do?
Researched subtechs are conserved. We don't need to shoehorn it into the frost tower to get the benefit.
Shoehorning in the frost tower seems like it would have more drawbacks than benefits, anyhow.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 06:26:51 am
Quote
...Why are you arguing this?QuoteThat's the point about the complexity. Even if it's as simple as it can be, that may not be enough.What must be done must be done.
To the jungle stuff: My exact point still remains. Seriously. Read it again and pretend I posted that again.
And about the crystal: That seems a lot like a national effort. Which means we couldn't deploy it with the frost tower. How could something that globally cancels out a spell across the entire battlefield even be Very Expensive?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 06:29:09 am
Quote...Why are you arguing this?QuoteThat's the point about the complexity. Even if it's as simple as it can be, that may not be enough.What must be done must be done.
To the jungle stuff: My exact point still remains. Seriously. Read it again and pretend I posted that again.
And about the crystal: That seems a lot like a national effort. Which means we couldn't deploy it with the frost tower. How could something that globally cancels out a spell across the entire battlefield even be Very Expensive?
I can not understand your logic.
At one end, you propose a spell that is supposed to be cheap, supposed to block multiple spells as well as provide magical cover. All that over the entire battlefield.
At the other, you complain that a much more limited spell must be more expensive?
Quote
To the jungle stuff: My exact point still remains. Seriously. Read it again and pretend I posted that again.
You created a strawman. There was never a risk of the entire Jungle being gone in the current timeframe. The fact that it hasn't happened doesn't mean that the plant spell works, it just means that it was not at risk of disappearing.
The extreme disadvantage you supposedly prevented was never going to happen.
It would be the same as me taking credit for the sky not falling down.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 06:31:22 am
Your post is so blatantly false I'm not going to participate in this any more if you're just resorting to pretending I said things I didn't.
Instead, just go actually read my posts and not just read every 5th word then form the worst possible conclusion from it.
Post by: Andres on April 30, 2017, 06:35:13 am
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 06:40:28 am
Quote
Design: Disrupting Mist (This is a design because the goal is to make it more resistant to wind and to counter lucky strike)
Disrupting mist is an iteration of obscuring mist. It has two advantages: One is that the mist is magically "anchored" to its intended location, whether that location is mobile or not. This prevents wind and similar effects from merely blowing the mist away and rendering it less useful. It also means that as those summoning the mist don't have to constantly summon it to account for the mist being blown away and as such the mages casting Disrupting Mist have a bit more free time on their hands than those casting the previous version.
Secondly and more importantly, the mist works almost as a magical "jamming field" via the wonders of Mathematics. It doesn't disrupt magic performed within, but continuous effects will have greatly reduced effectiveness if not just fizzling outright and attempting to channel magic into something inside the fog from outside is impossibly difficult.
This is the design we are talking about.
These are my claims about it.
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a spell that is supposed to be cheap, supposed to block multiple spells as well as provide magical cover. All that over the entire battlefield.
Let's analyze.
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Disrupting mist is an iteration of obscuring mist.
Obscuring mist was supposed to be a cheap battlefield wide mist spell. Claim Validated
Quote
It doesn't disrupt magic performed within
Extra claim added. Your design wants to selectively disable spells. Claim validated
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but continuous effects will have greatly reduced effectiveness if not just fizzling outright and attempting to channel magic into something inside the fog from outside is impossibly difficu
You want to stop multiple continious and all spells from outside Claim Validated
Quote
One is that the mist is magically "anchored" to its intended location, whether that location is mobile or not. This prevents wind and similar effects from merely blowing the mist away and rendering it less useful
And here is the magical cover. Claim validated
So, I do not understand what your problem is. My analysis is perfectly valid.
The thing about the proposed counters is that they do nothing more than counter the spell. It doesn't give us any kind of advantage to use against our enemies, it just negates an advantage they have.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Yes. The problem is that overstretching will result in failure.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 06:41:15 am
Like the plant growth! While I still maintain that it's helped to some degree, it's still very disappointing. Even though we got fairly good rolls and spent a revision on it, it's still useless for anything but terrain restoration and it's not even doing that job competently.
We need to stop being forced to spend revisions on things to make them simply work and instead make things that work without revisions then use the revisions for things that'll help us.
In short:
Having a design specifically to hard counter one of their most important spells + 2 revisions to drastically improve other things > Having a design that soft counters one of their most important spells and gives us some benefits in other area + 0-1 revisions to drastically improve other things.
And @Ebbor: You go have fun arguing. I'm done.
Post by: Andres on April 30, 2017, 06:44:29 am
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 06:45:40 am
Quote
And @Ebbor: You go have fun arguing. I'm done with you twisting my words.
I fail to see where I have twisted your words.
You can hardly complain that I ask that you apply the same standards to my designs as to your own.
I still don't think Disrupting Mist is what we should design. It simply might not do anything regarding the missiles and I've explained why. Crystal Canopy similarly isn't that great for our infantry. It's only good for our artillery. Lucky Charms helps with both. If there's some way we can use magic we already have to deal with both, then I'm willing to consider it.
Lucky Charms will help if it works.
But, because it's new research, it will not work.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 06:53:38 am
Crystal Plates
These big, crystal plates are simple to summon and can be created in large amounts. Special notches in the side can be used to click multiple plates together, allowing for the creation of larger objects out of multiple smaller plates. In the field, leather gambesons can be placed over the holes to prevent lucky strike arrows from going through the seems. Mass production allows the plates to be deployed in every situation. Rapid assembly of shelter, extra armor for fortified positions, defending boats against ballistae.
Similar to crystal canopy, but useable for infantry and naval as well.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 07:00:17 am
Perhaps it could be Anchored Crystal Plates. It'd likely be a bit harder to do, but almost definitely easier than any of the proposed designs so far.
@Your argumentative stuff:
Nope.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 07:13:38 am
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At arrow range, aren't they useless due to the range of their anti-magic?
Yes, but if you read the descriptions, our forces aren't quite getting to arrow range any more, and Moskurgian arrows were never that good.
Artillery on both sides is obliterating forces before that happens.
Post by: Azzuro on April 30, 2017, 07:21:52 am
Design: Salt Strike
Whenever Moskurg projectiles approach our men, our mages shall conjure walls of salt to defend them, using naught but the sheer fury research mathemagicians have for the workings of the world. The Beyond QualityTM Arstotzkan Salt is strong enough to withstand even ballista shots, and can be further recovered after the battle to sell overseas, making Arstotzka the number one salt exporter in the world!
GM, I expect to have +6 to all rolls as we have sufficiently demonstrated our expertise at creating salt.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 07:32:29 am
Just going to do a pros/cons list for it vs Crystal Canopy.
Crystal Plates
+ Doesn't require mage on site to cast (still have to be summoned at some point though)
+ Doesn't have to be continuously maintained
+ Easy to mass-produce
+ Simpler to design (Conjecture, but reasoning is: Crystal plates is essentially just a different shape of crystal and we've already done plenty of that. Hell, this could probably be a revision, but I'd rather not rely on that.)
- Hard to fire through: Requires time to deassemble part for firing port, and if firing port is left in Lucky Shot can pass through.
- Not as strong (See Crystal Canopy for reasoning)
- Vulnerable to anti-magic
Crystal Canopy
+ Parts can be summoned and re-summoned to allow for easy firing through
+ Likely stronger (Conjecture, but reasoning is: Crystal plates have to be portable and relatively easy to assemble. Crystal canopy is summoned on site and therefore is one solid structure which can be much thicker + stronger.)
- Require a mage on site to summon & maintain
- Vulnerable to anti-magic
So far I'm thinking Anchored Crystal Plates (Like I said: It'd be more complicated to design, but the extremely simple nature of the base crystal plates should still balance it out to be easier than the other designs) would be the best idea. Barring that, any of the discussed ideas could also work except for the Tuneable Anti-magic charm for obvious reasons. So, without further ado...
Design: Anchored Crystal Plates
Quote from: 10ebbor10 (Crystal Plates)
These big, crystal plates are simple to summon and can be created in large amounts. Special notches in the side can be used to click multiple plates together, allowing for the creation of larger objects out of multiple smaller plates. In the field, leather gambesons can be placed over the holes to prevent lucky strike arrows from going through the seems. Mass production allows the plates to be deployed in every situation. Rapid assembly of shelter, extra armor for fortified positions, defending boats against ballistae.In addition to the description of regular crystal plates, the crystal is "anchored" using techniques vaguely similar to a reverse application of anti-magic charm, except in a much more diluted form than the charms for cheaper production. The consequence of this is that the plates aren't susceptible to being dispelled by current enemy anti-magic, and ideally last longer.
Similar to crystal canopy, but useable for infantry and naval as well.
Quote
DesignsThe above quote assumes Roboson and Light Forger are voting for their own proposed designs.
1 - Disrupting Mist: Azzuro
1 - Crystal Canopy: VoidSlayer
1 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm : 10ebbor10
1 - Lucky Charms: Andres
1 - Anchored Crystal Plates: Chiefwaffles
1 - Anti-antimagic Arrow: Roboson
1 - Anchored Crystal Weapons: Light Forger
0 - Rifled Barrels:
0 - Mk2 Steam cannon:
0 - Crystal Plates
@Azzuro: No, you have it wrong. Clearly we need to export our salt for 10 expense credits.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 07:47:24 am
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Barring that, any of the discussed ideas could also work except for the Tuneable Anti-magic charm for obvious reasons.
And why wouldn't it. What are these obvious reasons.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 07:49:25 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 07:51:06 am
The reasons I already stated before in the thread. Hence them being obvious.
First of, that's rather egocentric of you, to say that because you think something, everybody must agree. I mean, you don't give the same treatment to the luck suggestion (which both you and I agreed is impractical), or to your own suggestion (which I argued to be impractical). Secondly, your argument has no ground to stand upon.
All you said was that you thought it would be a national effort, based on no evidence whatsoever.
Your response to my counterargument rightfully pointing out the flaws in your argument (namely that your design was far more complex) was to shut down and start crying about me being unfair.
But anyway, I'll make another go at the argument, for the sake of others.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 08:04:46 am
Quote
Design: Steam Engine [2-2, 1-2+1, 6-2]
Quote
Forever Frost: [5-1, 2-2, 4-2]
So, in both cases there were terrible cost rolls involved. In the case of forever frost, we were implementing an entire new field of magic over an entire battlefield. In the case of the Steam Engine, we were running ahead of technology by several centuries. That justifies the -2 modifier.
In the case of the crystal, we're implementing already known tech in a single design, then restricting it's capabilities.
Hardly comparable.
Quote from: Estimated Difficulty ranking (Not Votes) in relative numbers
4 - Lucky Charms: Andres : New field of Magic
3 - Disrupting Mist: Complex changes with new tech and multiple functions
2.5 - Anchored Crystal Plates: Simple New design + new tech
2 - Mk2 Steam cannon: Complex changes to single design but with exsiting tech
2 - Anchored Crystal Weapons: Moderate changes to multiple designs with new tech
2 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm Multiple changes based on existing tech
2 - Crystal Canopy: New design with newish tech
1.5 - Crystal Plates : Simple New Design
1 - Rifled Barrels: Revision like changes
1 - Anti-antimagic Arrow: Revision like changes
Post by: Azzuro on April 30, 2017, 09:06:51 am
Hear me out. The main criticism that both of you have against it is that it's too simple, better done in the revision phase. So what? We'll get +1s to doing it in the design phase then, bettering the result. And if you go back and reread the turn, both sides are actually evenly matched in terms of range, just that Moskurg accuracy is making the difference by allowing them to snipe. If we improve both our accuracy and range, we essentially render Moskurg ballistae obsolete, by sniping them at longer ranges than they're able to return fire. Lucky Strike is also bypassed (at least in the ballistae application) because it doesn't confer a range advantage. And we will have the range advantage if we pursue research in that area, as steam pressure>torsion springs!
I like your Mk2 Steam Cannon design for creativity, ebbor, but reliability isn't as great an issue as getting sniped is and fire-rate is not an issue at all, and the design seems to address only those.
Oh, and for a revision we should look into firing cannons downward, to drive them out of the mountains and regain the bonus to make Fog-O-War ships.
Quote from: Designs
0 - Disrupting Mist:
1 - Crystal Canopy: VoidSlayer
1 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm : 10ebbor10
1 - Lucky Charms: Andres
1 - Anchored Crystal Plates: Chiefwaffles
1 - Anti-antimagic Arrow: Roboson
2 - Anchored Crystal Weapons: Light Forger, Azzuro
0 - Rifled Barrels:
0 - Mk2 Steam cannon:
0 - Crystal Plates
I want to switch my vote to my own design of Rifled Barrels, but in the interest of preventing another zero-consensus situation, I'm switching my vote to Anchored Crystal Weapons. Permanent (aka fully mundane) Conjuration has been something we've been working towards since the very start of the game, so if we can't decide what to do may as well continue on it.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 09:15:00 am
Quote
Hear me out. The main criticism that both of you have against it is that it's too simple, better done in the revision phase. So what? We'll get +1s to doing it in the design phase then, bettering the result. And if you go back and reread the turn, both sides are actually evenly matched in terms of range, just that Moskurg accuracy is making the difference by allowing them to snipe. If we improve both our accuracy and range, we essentially render Moskurg ballistae obsolete, by sniping them at longer ranges than they're able to return fire. Lucky Strike is also bypassed (at least in the ballistae application) because it doesn't confer a range advantage. And we will have the range advantage if we pursue research in that area, as steam pressure>torsion springs!
Doing revisions in the design phase has it's downside. You can not get flaws or cost increases during revisions, but you can get them during design actions.
And the Moskurgians have Wind spells. They too may try to play the range game.
It'll be harder for them than for us, but they may try.
Quote
I like your Mk2 Steam Cannon design for creativity, ebbor, but reliability isn't as great an issue as getting sniped is and fire-rate is not an issue at all, and the design seems to address only those.
Yeah, it does.
It was intended to be combined with something like your proposal as a revision, to end up with a truly devastating weapon.
Quote
Oh, and for a revision we should look into firing cannons downward, to drive them out of the mountains and regain the bonus to make Fog-O-War ships.
I think long-range fireballs would be a better idea, actually. Fireballs helps us both in the mountains, in the Jungle, and at Sea, by setting their flammable wooden ships and wooden ballista and standard Moskurgians aflame.
Ideally, we'll do both.
Quote
I want to switch my vote to my own design of Rifled Barrels, but in the interest of preventing another zero-consensus situation, I'm switching my vote to Anchored Crystal Weapons. Permanent (aka fully mundane) Conjuration has been something we've been working towards since the very start of the game, so if we can't decide what to do may as well continue on it.
Please don't.
We really, really don't want to end up not solving our range disadvantage.
Crystal weaponry, while neat, is not going to help us when both sides ran away before reaching the other sides lines.
Quote
0 - Disrupting Mist:
1 - Crystal Canopy: VoidSlayer
0 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm
1 - Lucky Charms: Andres
2 - Anchored Crystal Plates: Chiefwaffles, 10ebbor10
1 - Anti-antimagic Arrow: Roboson
2 - Anchored Crystal Weapons: Light Forger, Azzuro
0 - Rifled Barrels:
0 - Mk2 Steam cannon:
0 - Crystal Plates
Not my favorite design, but I really don't want to repeat the Charge of the light brigade.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 30, 2017, 09:38:16 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 09:42:10 am
Anyway, I'm willing to support the Longer Barrel thing, and will change my vote as long as other people do so too
Post by: Azzuro on April 30, 2017, 09:55:56 am
Quote from: Designs
0 - Disrupting Mist:
1 - Crystal Canopy: VoidSlayer
0 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm
1 - Lucky Charms: Andres
2 - Anchored Crystal Plates: Chiefwaffles, 10ebbor10
1 - Anti-antimagic Arrow: Roboson
1 - Anchored Crystal Weapons: Light Forger
1 - Rifled Barrels: Azzuro
0 - Mk2 Steam cannon:
0 - Crystal Plates
Alright, changing my vote to Rifled Barrels. Shamelessness FTW!
You raise a good point about Moskurg wind spells giving them a way to play the range game, but I'm still confident that we will stay ahead with steam cannons. After all, in the real world we are still using steam power - in aircraft carriers as part of a steam catapult system to launch heavier fighter jets.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 10:23:34 am
Quote
0 - Disrupting Mist:
1 - Crystal Canopy: VoidSlayer
0 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm
1 - Lucky Charms: Andres
1 - Anchored Crystal Plates: Chiefwaffles
1 - Anti-antimagic Arrow: Roboson
1 - Anchored Crystal Weapons: Light Forger
2 - Rifled Barrels: Azzuro, 10ebbor10
0 - Mk2 Steam cannon:
0 - Crystal Plates
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 30, 2017, 10:28:56 am
Quote
0 - Disrupting Mist:
1 - Crystal Canopy: VoidSlayer
0 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm
1 - Lucky Charms: Andres
1 - Anchored Crystal Plates: Chiefwaffles
1 - Anti-antimagic Arrow: Roboson
1 - Anchored Crystal Weapons: Light Forger
3 - Rifled Barrels: Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Stabby
0 - Mk2 Steam cannon:
0 - Crystal Plates
Post by: andrea on April 30, 2017, 12:20:42 pm
If in the end rifled cannons win, please try to get metal balls out of them as well. It is a design, we can do a bit more than that.
Quote
0 - Disrupting Mist:
1 - Crystal Canopy: VoidSlayer
0 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm
1 - Lucky Charms: Andres
1 - Anchored Crystal Plates: Chiefwaffles
1 - Anti-antimagic Arrow: Roboson
1 - Anchored Crystal Weapons: Light Forger
3 - Rifled Barrels: Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Stabby
1 - Mk2 Steam cannon: Andrea
0 - Crystal Plates
As for fancy ideas on how to protect from their bolts... why not go simple?
Siege shield This is an huge shield made of wood, thick enough to stop a ballista bolt and big enough to cover 2 or 3 people. while heavy, it is mounted on wheels to provide mobility. It is a solid block without slits , not giving any opportunity for the enemy projectiles to bypass them.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 30, 2017, 01:19:38 pm
NEW RULES. READ.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
In case you still haven't read them, I want you guys to know that if you find yourselves in an argument going nowhere or becoming angry at another player on your team, take a moment and step away from the computer. If you can't even do that, then simply continue the discussion via PM's. Failing to be civil in the thread is a bannable offense.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 02:21:49 pm
Rifled barrels don't solve lucky strike. I'll admit they aren't totally useless and extending the range wouldn't protect our artillery, but lucky strike will still harass us at land and sea.
One of our main problems is the fact that we can't advance because their ranged weapons destroy our forces before they can do any damage. Rifles barrels may help alleviate part of the problem by decreasing the ballistae they have to shoot us, but it doesn't fix this problem.
And we have 2 revisions. Why waste a design on a revision? Range and accuracy are both things that can be easily done via revision.
Ebbor, we also aren't at a range disadvantage. We're equally matched in terms of range.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 02:28:16 pm
And yeah, I don't want to waste designs on a revision, but it's much better than bringing an axe to an artillery fight. There's nothing else decent that stood a chance of winning.
Sorry, my mistake. Range is a big issue though, it's what the enemy commanders focus upon.
Post by: andrea on April 30, 2017, 02:30:46 pm
I still believe, however, that we should implement the mk2 cannon and only then revise it to work.
edit: that is to say, it has a chance to win. Has a vote now.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 02:33:59 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 30, 2017, 02:39:01 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 02:44:41 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 30, 2017, 02:51:42 pm
Thoughts on the Anchored Crystal Plates, Void?
I dont know, seems more complicated to build multiple large interconnected plates then a single structure to start with as we do not have experience doing things on these scales, but I would rather those then messing with axes and lances.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 02:54:52 pm
Because that's so easy, ideally the anchored aspect could be implemented into the design, and the combined difficulty of the design would still be easier than anything else countering lucky fire.
In my eyes:
Anchored Crystal Plates > Crystal Canopy > Crystal Plates >>> Cannon Rifling
Post by: Azzuro on April 30, 2017, 02:55:30 pm
Quote
0 - Disrupting Mist:
1 - Crystal Canopy: VoidSlayer
0 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm
1 - Lucky Charms: Andres
1 - Anchored Crystal Plates: Chiefwaffles
1 - Anti-antimagic Arrow: Roboson
1 - Anchored Crystal Weapons: Light Forger
2 - Rifled Barrels: 10ebbor10, Stabby
2 - Mk2 Steam cannon: Andrea, Azzuro
0 - Crystal Plates
Changing to Mk2 Steam Cannon. If ebbor changes, then that's 3 votes for it.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 02:57:51 pm
That's possibly the worst one here.
It doesn't increase range, accuracy, and it doesn't counter lucky strike. Firerate isn't a problem and reliability is a smaller problem than accuracy or range. That solves zero problems.
Post by: andrea on April 30, 2017, 03:11:37 pm
only one thing I owuld add, to either design or revision, is the ability to aim downward a bit. I remember the commander asking for something like it.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 30, 2017, 03:11:45 pm
this turn the cannon becomes very expensive due to not having the mountains. We need it at its peak.
Future designs will not have a metal bonus to their design. Existing metal-based equipment like your plate armor and cannons will not lose their expense bonus in their current state.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 03:12:59 pm
At this point, I'm willing to vote for anything that actually counters lucky strike. Any of the discussed designs so far are fine by me.
Post by: Roboson on April 30, 2017, 03:14:00 pm
Quote
0 - Disrupting Mist:
1 - Crystal Canopy: VoidSlayer
0 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm
1 - Lucky Charms: Andres
1 - Anchored Crystal Plates: Chiefwaffles
1 - Anti-antimagic Arrow: Roboson
1 - Anchored Crystal Weapons: Light Forger
3 - Rifled Barrels: 10ebbor10, Stabby, Roboson
2 - Mk2 Steam cannon: Andrea, Azzuro
0 - Crystal Plates
I don't like any of these options really. Riflery is important and can be applied to other things later, Mk2 cant.
Edit: We could really make use of the magic disruption arrow to counter their wind and antimagic. But that still doesn't solve lucky strike I guess.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 03:15:55 pm
Anchored Crystal Plates
Crystal Canopy
Disrupting Mist
Tuneable Antimagic Charm
Crystal Plates
Post by: Roboson on April 30, 2017, 03:26:02 pm
Deflecting Crystal Mist
Using our knowledge of crystals , antimagic, and mist, we've devised the perfect defense against their ranged attacks. This mist is filled with anti-magic crystal dust, which, when magic attempts to pass through it, the dust particles around the projectile explode, destabilizing the nearby spell and changing the trajectory of any nearby projectiles. This even works on residual magic, like the kind on
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 03:28:04 pm
And question - How do we use it without hurting our own forces?
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 30, 2017, 03:33:18 pm
Post by: andrea on April 30, 2017, 03:34:36 pm
as for crystal canopy, remember that their antimagic is getting larger in range.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 03:37:41 pm
Voting for Crystal Canopy.
0 - Disrupting Mist:
3 - Crystal Canopy: VoidSlayer, Chiefwaffles, Stabby
0 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm
1 - Lucky Charms: Andres
1 - Anchored Crystal Plates: Chiefwaffles
1 - Anti-antimagic Arrow: Roboson
1 - Anchored Crystal Weapons: Light Forger
1 - Rifled Barrels: 10ebbor10
2 - Mk2 Steam cannon: Andrea, Azzuro
0 - Crystal Plates
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 03:46:39 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 30, 2017, 03:47:28 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 30, 2017, 03:49:16 pm
Crystal Canopy - A large, immobile shield of crystal that can cover a group of mages and those operating the cannons. It blocks only from above with a slanted design. A portion of it is summoned separately to allow a "firing port" which can be dismissed and re-summoned quickly to allow the cannon to fire out.
It is designed to be actively maintained by a squad of mages who will be under it.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 03:49:38 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 30, 2017, 03:54:16 pm
Anti-anti-magic is something we should be doing soon anyways, ebbor, since right now our fireballs are useless because of it.
Magic disruption arrow!
Crystal Canopy - A large, immobile shield of crystal that can cover a group of mages and those operating the cannons. It blocks only from above with a slanted design. A portion of it is summoned separately to allow a "firing port" which can be dismissed and re-summoned quickly to allow the cannon to fire out.
It is designed to be actively maintained by a squad of mages who will be under it.
Wouldn't it be better if we could summon it quickly to cover our soldiers and thanes in addition to our mages? That way it blocks arrows as well.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 03:55:53 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 04:00:17 pm
There's nothing stopping mages from quickly casting Crystal Canopy to protect soldiers, thanes, and the like but it's still made useless by the anti-magic that envelopes where we'd be using it to protect our soldiers. Anchored Crystal plates would definitely work better since they wouldn't be stopped by anti-magic but have the disadvantage of not being quickly put up. But it'd still see plenty of use in the front lines by archers and a trench-like style of advancing. Possibly.
Post by: Roboson on April 30, 2017, 04:01:55 pm
If you want infantry too, that's Anchored Crystal Plates: Chiefwaffles
Honestly I just want a summonable dome to defend against incoming ballistas. I don't want it to be restricted to artillery. I don't care if it gets dispelled at close range, because at that point we can just kill them. Its the archers and ballistas that are killing us.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 04:04:10 pm
And again, it's not restricted to cannons! It's designed for them, sure, but it'd still work for infantry. It's just that any crystal-based design for infantry that isn't anchored is completely useless.
Post by: andrea on April 30, 2017, 04:08:26 pm
However, it will be important to refine the cannon while we have the artillery advantage. If we use a design and a revision on it now, we can make it shoot more, farther, more accurately. if we branch off to new stuff, dice know where that will bring us.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 04:08:54 pm
Post by: andrea on April 30, 2017, 04:15:20 pm
Plus, it introduces some useful concepts like steam recycling ( that would fix our problems with salt in steam engines) and and barrel cooling ( that is actually an important step to more mobile guns. In fact, it opens the field for handguns, rifles.).
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 30, 2017, 04:19:25 pm
Quote0 - Disrupting Mist:
1 - Crystal Canopy: VoidSlayer
0 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm
1 - Lucky Charms: Andres
1 - Anchored Crystal Plates: Chiefwaffles
1 - Anti-antimagic Arrow: Roboson
1 - Anchored Crystal Weapons: Light Forger
4 - Rifled Barrels: 10ebbor10, Stabby, Roboson, Tyrant
2 - Mk2 Steam cannon: Andrea, Azzuro
0 - Crystal Plates
We match their range. Just need to hit. Turtle Ship design and plant magic can wait. Limited net window.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 04:23:11 pm
We need to be able to eliminate their ballista and more important forces. Better accuracy and better range, which are both revisions that we can do with our 2 revisions this time around, accomplish that fine. Reliability is a small problem at this point dwarfed by many other issues and rate of fire is already an advantage of the current cannon.
RE: Rifled Barrels.
Why would we spend a design slot on something that's literally just a revision? I'm seriously confused with the logic here. Accuracy and range are both things that can be done in revisions.
Current vote counts: (I forgot to include Roboson in Rifled Barrels and Tyrant incorrectly added Stabby to Rifled Barrels)
Quote
Designs
0 - Disrupting Mist:
3 - Crystal Canopy: VoidSlayer, Chiefwaffles, Stabby
0 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm
1 - Lucky Charms: Andres
1 - Anchored Crystal Plates: Chiefwaffles
1 - Anti-antimagic Arrow: Roboson
1 - Anchored Crystal Weapons: Light Forger
3 - Rifled Barrels: 10ebbor10, Roboson, Tyrant
2 - Mk2 Steam cannon: Andrea, Azzuro
0 - Crystal Plates
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 30, 2017, 04:24:35 pm
Edited out vote table I out up
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 04:28:07 pm
Also Roboson: My problem with the magic disruption arrow is that it's anti-anti-magic in the wrong place. We want to keep ourselves free from their anti-magic, and it seems a bit convoluted if we were to shoot/place the arrows near ourselves. I think that an anti-antimagic charm next design phase or some other time soon could work, then we could extend to other things if desired.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 30, 2017, 04:33:28 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 04:34:13 pm
Designs
0 - Disrupting Mist:
3 - Crystal Canopy: VoidSlayer, Chiefwaffles, Stabby
0 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm
1 - Lucky Charms: Andres
1 - Anchored Crystal Plates: Chiefwaffles
1 - Anti-antimagic Arrow: Roboson
1 - Anchored Crystal Weapons: Light Forger
3 - Rifled Barrels: Roboson, Tyrant
3 - Mk2 Steam cannon: Andrea, Azzuro, 10ebbor10,
0 - Crystal Plates
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 04:34:46 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 30, 2017, 04:34:58 pm
In fairness, Roboson did vote for Rifled Barrels ~2 pages ago. I forgot to count him there when I added my vote for Crystal Canopy.
Also Roboson: My problem with the magic disruption arrow is that it's anti-anti-magic in the wrong place. We want to keep ourselves free from their anti-magic, and it seems a bit convoluted if we were to shoot/place the arrows near ourselves. I think that an anti-antimagic charm next design phase or some other time soon could work, then we could extend to other things if desired.
I did change my vote yes. Guess I forgot to take it off the anti-anti magic.
Honestly the same principle could be used to disrupt any sort of magic. Its simple mathemagical application.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 04:35:44 pm
Clearly we must find a way to utilize our natural ability to create ties on the battlefield.
We will have the most dapper soldiers on the battlefield.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 04:37:31 pm
By leveraging our natural abilities and talents in this field, a mage can cast a spell on an enemy squad that causes them to stop in their tracks and bicker until they meet their unexpected deaths from a cannon ball. The enemy squad will be so engrossed in their arguing that they won't notice anything around them, including artillery fire or our squads walking past them.
Expensive.
Post by: Light forger on April 30, 2017, 04:38:22 pm
Crystal Canopy: Two large problems utter immobile and can be dispelled. Not to mention if they get super lucky they can still possible hit whoever is in inside it(it has windows after all).
Lucky Charms: New school of magic and is going to have large problems doing enough. Not only does it try to copy their lucky strike it also adds on another effect.
Anit-anti-magic Arrows: I'm not a hundred percent sure that this would counter their anti-magic(after all it can enter our own anti-magic field).
Anchored Crystal Plates: Anchored crystal magic is probably going to be somewhat difficult and this would be our largest crystal construct to date.
Rifled Barrel: Can be done in an revision.
Mk2 Steam Cannon: It would correct most of the problem we are having with the cannon but, the cannon works great for a first try and we are having problems in other fields. Not to mention it's still weak to any anti-magic fields.
My number one worry is that they will make a larger anti-magic field which would break our cannons but, leave their mundane weapons alone getting someway to counter that before it happens and we lose another section or two on the map. For our two revisions we can get rifling plus conical/better made rounds which would fix almost all the problems with our new cannon. Later we can just move over our anchored crystals into a new cannon and have it hopefully be anti-magic proof.
If all else fails and Anchored Crystal Weapons loses, move me over to Crystal Canopy it's better then rifled at least.
Post by: Roboson on April 30, 2017, 04:41:43 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 04:43:43 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 04:45:21 pm
It's pretty much the same thing as Anchored Crystal Weapons except in my opinion it helps us in a much more needed area if it works.
Post by: Light forger on April 30, 2017, 04:48:15 pm
The most likely issue with crystal plates is their size and we will getting a range upgrade from our revisions to cover our advance.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 30, 2017, 04:54:42 pm
Would someone kindly repost the design proposal? I can't seem to find it.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 04:56:03 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 04:57:49 pm
Would someone kindly repost the design proposal? I can't seem to find it.
My bad. I misnamed it in the spoiler.
Quote
Mk 2 Magic Cannon
This magic cannon has seen a few very interesting upgrades. Firstly, the barrel has been inscribed with a cold spell taken from our frost tower. This means that it never heats up, but always maintain it's cool. This improves both firerate and reliability The second improvement is the steam recycler. This small spell is triggered by the projectile passing through the muzzle. It puts the muzzle cold spell into overdrive, instantly flashing the steam back to water. This sucks the steam back into the cannon, ensuring no new water needs to be added.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 30, 2017, 04:58:39 pm
Quick men. Create a 3 way tie.
Designs
0 - Disrupting Mist:
3 - Crystal Canopy: VoidSlayer, Chiefwaffles, Stabby
0 - Tuneable Antimagic Charm
1 - Lucky Charms: Andres
1 - Anchored Crystal Plates: Chiefwaffles
1 - Anti-antimagic Arrow: Roboson
1 - Anchored Crystal Weapons: Light Forger
2 - Rifled Barrels: Roboson, Tyrant
3 - Mk2 Steam cannon: Andrea, Azzuro, 10ebbor10,
0 - Crystal Plates
I went off this vote chart. Sorry, but you guys had plenty of time and warning to come to an agreement.
Post by: Light forger on April 30, 2017, 05:01:07 pm
Mk 2 Magic Cannon
This magic cannon has seen a few very interesting upgrades. Firstly, the barrel has been inscribed with a cold spell taken from our frost tower. This means that it never heats up, but always maintain it's cool. This improves both firerate and reliability The second improvement is the steam recycler. This small spell is triggered by the projectile passing through the muzzle. It puts the muzzle cold spell into overdrive, instantly flashing the steam back to water. This sucks the steam back into the cannon, ensuring no new water needs to be added.
Oh well here is the cannon design
Post by: evictedSaint on April 30, 2017, 05:16:44 pm
We make some minor quality-of-life improvements to the design, but our major fixes struggle.
Firstly, a relatively simple adjustment to the wooden carriage allows the cannon to be fired from 45° up to 90° down. This is useful for emplacing the cannon on walls, and allowing it to fire directly down at enemies at our gates. Firing at below 0° horizontal results in greater and greater recoil, however, and the cannon must be readjusted between each firing.
Secondly, we set up production for iron cannon ball ammunition. These are heavier and slightly more expensive to produce, but they don't typically shatter in the barrel. The downside is that they must be cast from the supply centers in our backlines and shipped forward, although in a pinch our siege engineers can take the time to chisel stone shot if supplies get disrupted.
Our success ends there, sadly. An attempt was made to copy the cold inscriptions used in our Tower of Frost and apply them to the barrel to prevent overheating. Due to the complexity of the cold spell we had to cut a few corners in the spell. The result is a barrel so cold that it cracks instantly after being fired once - that is, if the cannon ball doesn't get caught in the smaller barrel and cause an explosion. Since we couldn't get the cold spell to work correctly we didn't have much success with our experimental steam recycler; most of the steam is lost out the barrel anyways, and what does get condensed freezes on the inside. If by some miracle the cannon doesn't crack after the first shot, the ice causes the shot to jam and result in an explosion on the second.
The cold-inscription process is time consuming and requires expensive materials and skilled labor to do, making it Very Expensive. Our forces will continue to use the Mk1 until the bugs are fixed with the Mk2.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 05:17:52 pm
Design is total loss, of to the scrap heap.
.
Post by: andrea on April 30, 2017, 05:19:20 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 30, 2017, 05:20:54 pm
question: the new cannon is bad, but can we at least still use the new carriage and iron ammo?
Yes; the carriage and ammo has been adapted to the Mk1 as a free bonus of the design.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 05:22:09 pm
Revision : Long range Fireballs
At sea, our cannons are often overkill, punching through ships. These long range fireballs can set sail aflame, or simply burn Moskurgian boats to the waterline.
Revision : Chain artillery.
Our fire spell is very simple. A single mage can actually power a dozen cannons. This thaumatical relative of the firewall spell does exactly that, providing the ability for a mage to fire multiple artillery pieces.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 05:27:17 pm
Anyways, Mk2 is a complete loss and a waste of a design, like ebbor said. It's not worth it to spend revisions making it useable when we can just use the MK1 instead. And next combat phase we will still be annihilated by Lucky Strike. So...
Revision: MK1 Hybrid Cannon Increased Range
Further improvements to the cannon allow it to fire at an even greater range, allowing us to outrange even the enemy artillery.
This is the most important revision - it even gives our artillery a chance to still bypass lucky strike by not even being in range of their ballistae and arrows.
Revision: MK1 Hybrid Cannon Increased Accuracy
General improvements such as rifling and the like allow for greatly increased accuracy in the cannon. Now the cannon can much more reliably hit individual targets such as enemy ballista emplacements, mages, and leadership.
Quote
Designs
1 - MK1 Hybrid Cannon Increased Range: Chiefwaffles
1 - MK1 Hybrid Cannon Increased Accuracy: Chiefwaffles
Post by: andrea on April 30, 2017, 05:28:05 pm
as for revisions, I'll propose
Rifled Barrels
By further elongating the length of the barrel and inscribing matching 'spirals' on the inside and the shell, our mathemagicians have promised improvements in both the accuracy of the shots fired and the range.
courtesy of Azzurro
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 05:29:58 pm
Quote
Anyways, Mk2 is a complete loss and a waste of a design, like ebbor said. It's not worth it to spend revisions making it useable when we can just use the MK1 instead. And next combat phase we will still be annihilated by Lucky Strike. So...
With these numbers, that was kind of an inevitability. None of our anti-lucky strike things would have been functional.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 30, 2017, 05:31:53 pm
Leviathan Ship: After getting steam engine working this is our new steam boat. The trick? Metal studded/anchored hull sides and a cabinet of metal like a dome outer main deck. With strategic hatches for the main guns. Has rotators wheels, steam oars and auxiliary Manuel oars. It is built to last due to metallic design. A tad slow but harder to sink.
Based off Korean Turtle Boat. Which defeated a Japanese invasion fleet and were out numbered 5 to one I think and only lost three. And it is a time traditional cannons were in use.
* 1 design left. * 1 Spell left.
Lots of revisions in mind.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 05:32:58 pm
And now that I see Ebbor's edited-in designs, I'm going to switch my vote from Accuracy to Chain Artillery.
I'm assuming Ebbor's voting for his own stuff at first.
Quote
Designs
2 - Chain Artillery: Chiefwaffles, Ebbor
1 - MK1 Hybrid Cannon Increased Range: Chiefwaffles
1 - Long-range Fireballs: Ebbor
1 - Rifled Barrels: Andrea
0 - MK1 Hybrid Cannon Increased Accuracy:
@Ebbor: While we will never know, if Crystal Canopy got those rolls, a revision could probably get it to functional. But with the MK2, a revision spent getting it to functional is better spent improving the MK1.
Anyways, after re-reading the design report, the improvements to the MK1 are pretty nice, although still probably not worth the design slot. So not a total loss.
EDIT: You know what's also something we should do in the future with ship design? Artillery ships. With multiple cannons fitted onto a single new ship, we could have our ships provide support at land from the shores. The cannons would still directly improve combat proficiency at sea while giving us additional bonuses at land.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 05:34:28 pm
Post by: Light forger on April 30, 2017, 05:37:15 pm
Crystal Plates (Lightforger)
A simple improvement of our crystal caltrops crystal plates creates a roughly door sized wall of crystal that lasts for a few hours. The wall is to be used by our artillery crews as cover against enemy weapons.
Votes:
Rifled Barrels
Crystal Plates (Lightforger)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on April 30, 2017, 05:40:57 pm
Oh, and you have to add your votes to this thingy.
Quote
Designs
2 - Chain Artillery: Chiefwaffles, Ebbor
1 - MK1 Hybrid Cannon Increased Range: Chiefwaffles
1 - Long-range Fireballs: Ebbor
2 - Rifled Barrels: Andrea, Light Forger
0 - MK1 Hybrid Cannon Increased Accuracy
1 - Crystal Plates Lught Forger
Post by: Roboson on April 30, 2017, 05:45:23 pm
Upon looking at at the design for the MK2, our engineers realized how silly the design was. It employed a freezing spell directly on the cannon barrel and implements a mundane steam recycler. This was entirely backwards. The MK2.1 Antifreeze solves the temperature issue altogether by moving a weaker version of the freezing spell to the condenser (and not on the barrel) and then having the return pipe coil around the cannon barrel. The temperature difference of the steam condenser allows it to collect much more steam and makes it quite cold, but not quite freezing. The coiled return pipe wrapped around the hottest parts of the barrel cools the cannon after each firing as very cold condensed water is captured by the condenser and returned to the reservoir.
Post by: andrea on April 30, 2017, 05:52:21 pm
Quote
Designs
2 - Chain Artillery: Chiefwaffles, Ebbor
2 - MK1 Hybrid Cannon Increased Range: Chiefwaffles
1 - Long-range Fireballs: Ebbor, Andrea
2 - Rifled Barrels: Andrea, Light Forger
0 - MK1 Hybrid Cannon Increased Accuracy
1 - Crystal Plates Lught Forger
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 30, 2017, 06:02:51 pm
the antifreeze is tempting I must admit...but for my second vote I will get fireballs I think.QuoteDesigns
2 - Chain Artillery: Chiefwaffles, Ebbor
2 - MK1 Hybrid Cannon Increased Range: Chiefwaffles
3- Long-range Fireballs: Ebbor, Andrea, tyrant
2- Rifled Barrels: Andrea, Light Forger
0 - MK1 Hybrid Cannon Increased Accuracy
1 - Crystal Plates Lught Forger
Post by: andrea on April 30, 2017, 06:04:33 pm
Post by: Light forger on April 30, 2017, 06:05:50 pm
Quote
Designs
2 - Chain Artillery: Chiefwaffles, Ebbor
2 - MK1 Hybrid Cannon Increased Range: Chiefwaffles
3 - Long-range Fireballs: Ebbor, Andrea, tyrant
2 - Rifled Barrels: Andrea, Light Forger
0 - MK1 Hybrid Cannon Increased Accuracy:
1 - Crystal Plates(Lightforger): Light Forger
0 - MK2.1 Antifreeze:
Didn't change my vote just tiding up the quote box a bit.
Post by: Roboson on April 30, 2017, 06:07:01 pm
Quote
Designs
2 - Chain Artillery: Chiefwaffles, Ebbor
2 - MK1 Hybrid Cannon Increased Range: Chiefwaffles
4- Long-range Fireballs: Ebbor, Andrea, tyrant,
3- Rifled Barrels: Andrea, Light Forger, Roboson
0 - MK1 Hybrid Cannon Increased Accuracy
1 - Crystal Plates Lught Forger
1- MK2.1- Antifreeze, Roboson
Post by: andrea on April 30, 2017, 06:11:02 pm
Post by: Roboson on April 30, 2017, 06:12:14 pm
you messed up somewhere. You added a vote to fireballs, but put your name next to antifreeze, replicing light forger.
You said we vote for two.
keep in mind you can vote for 2, since we have 2 revisions.
Post by: evictedSaint on April 30, 2017, 06:13:37 pm
Post by: andrea on April 30, 2017, 06:15:32 pm
you messed up somewhere. You added a vote to fireballs, but put your name next to antifreeze, replicing light forger.
You said we vote for two.keep in mind you can vote for 2, since we have 2 revisions.
Indeed. But what I mean, you changed the number next to a revision, but added a name to another without changing the number on that. And in fact you deleted the name of another person.
Could you clarify which designs are you voting for, in plain text?
Post by: RAM on April 30, 2017, 06:16:48 pm
Spoiler: super bomb (click to show/hide)
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 30, 2017, 06:19:29 pm
Quote
Designs
3 - Chain Artillery: Chiefwaffles, Ebbor, Stabby
2 - MK1 Hybrid Cannon Increased Range: Chiefwaffles
3- Long-range Fireballs: Ebbor, Andrea, tyrant,
4- Rifled Barrels: Andrea, Light Forger, Roboson, stabby
0 - MK1 Hybrid Cannon Increased Accuracy
1 - Crystal Plates Lught Forger
1- MK2.1- Antifreeze, Roboson
Edit;I'm not get new post warnings for some reason.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 06:24:18 pm
Also:
Fireballs + 6 on range = Long-range; Matching the range of ballistae and our existing artillery.
Cannon + 6 on range = Extreme-range; Becoming the farthest-ranging weapon for both sides. We'd be able to out-shoot literally anything they have.
Though we may not need it if Rifled Barrels rolls well, so we'll see.
I'm keeping my vote for Increased Range on the cannon to keep it somewhat relevant. I doubt it's going to cause confusion at 1 vote total.
Quote
2 - Chain Artillery: Ebbor, Stabby
1 - MK1 Hybrid Cannon Increased Range: Chiefwaffles
3- Long-range Fireballs: Ebbor, Andrea, tyrant,
5 - Rifled Barrels: Andrea, Light Forger, Roboson, stabby, Chiefwaffles
0 - MK1 Hybrid Cannon Increased Accuracy
1 - Crystal Plates Lught Forger
1- MK2.1- Antifreeze, Roboson
Post by: RAM on April 30, 2017, 06:38:13 pm
Find the magical signature for luck and absorb it. The wearer has neither good nor bad fortune. Based upon the relics that we found from the original archaeological site that suggested fortune magic existed and that the accursed keggers are obviously operating according to the "luck not skill" school of military practice...
Still, this assumes that they are using luck. They could have derived skill from their heroism wand. although I doubt that skill could explain quite that much accuracy.
It also assumes that luck is always reciprocal. Shooting someone through the eye-slit is lucky, being shot through the eye-slit is unlucky.
Also also, antimagic charms are pricey, so this wouldn't affect their general good fortune, just their 'this shot is going to hit a commander or wizard' luck because commanders and wizard can't be unlucky enough to be the only thing in a large field to be hit. It may also help against lightning strikes which are notoriously fortune-based
What has happened is that the Jungle cover was never an apocalyptic -this will loose us the terrain- problem. It was a minor problem that was overstated, and failing to adress that has shown that it was just that, a minor problem.I am not so much concerned with losing the jungle as a region, but rather losing it as a resource.
Post by: Roboson on April 30, 2017, 06:59:13 pm
Quote
2 - Chain Artillery: Ebbor, Stabby
1 - MK1 Hybrid Cannon Increased Range: Chiefwaffles
3- Long-range Fireballs: Ebbor, Andrea, tyrant,
4 - Rifled Barrels: Andrea, Light Forger, stabby, Chiefwaffles
0 - MK1 Hybrid Cannon Increased Accuracy
1 - Crystal Plates Lught Forger
1- MK2.1- Antifreeze, Roboson
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 07:11:13 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 30, 2017, 07:19:10 pm
It takes a bit of doing, but the math doesn't lie. If we made our ammunition spin during flight it will dramatically improve the weapons accuracy.
In fact, it does exactly what we want it to. We produce a working prototype with several clock-wise spiralling grooves on the inside. These grooves grab hold of the cannon ball as it exits the cannon and force it to rotate. This rotation improves the stability, letting us hit the same location with a tighter grouping - the spread is about halved at maximum range, hitting reliably in the same 15-20 meter area if the cannon is re-aimed each time.
The problem is that this rifling requires a level of precision beyond anything we've ever tried before. Each cannon must be hand-chiseled carefully over a long period of time; a task made extraordinarily difficult by the small bore size. Casting results in far too many defects in the delicate rifling despite our best efforts. We can still make them, but only enough to outfit each theatre with 2 or 3. Very Expensive.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 07:26:54 pm
This round has not been kind to the cannon. And so much for improved range, which would have helped the most by far. At least we can be glad this only increased expense.
Evicted: Does this affect both the MK1 and MK2, or does it only affect one of them?
Also, let's resubmit any revisions this time to keep clutter down. Assuming this revision applies to both versions...
Revision: Cheaper Cannons
Make both versions of the hybrid cannons cheaper to use by designing a standardized manufacturing process for the cannons.
Quote
Designs
1 - Cheaper Cannons: Chiefwaffles
Post by: evictedSaint on April 30, 2017, 07:28:41 pm
Evicted: Does this affect both the MK1 and MK2, or does it only affect one of them?
It will be applied to both. The Mk1 is still Expensive, but the Mk1-r variant will be Very Expensive.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 07:30:31 pm
If that's the case, then I think we should just go for improved range instead of cheapness.
Post by: Roboson on April 30, 2017, 07:31:23 pm
To reiterate, temperature control and lack of steam recycling. These are the two things that are causing our cannons and our engines to fail (especially at sea). If we can fix these (which this does) then we're golden. This revision can be applied to the Mk1, Mk2, and MkR as well as steam engines.
Cooling Steam Recycler (CSR), aka Caesar.
Upon looking at at the design for the MK2, our engineers realized how silly the design was. It employed a freezing spell directly on the cannon barrel and implements a mundane steam recycler. This was entirely backwards. The CSR system solves the temperature issue altogether by moving a weaker version of the freezing spell to the condenser (and not on the barrel) and then having the return pipe coil around the cannon barrel. The temperature difference of the steam condenser allows it to collect much more steam and makes it quite cold, but not quite freezing. The coiled return pipe wrapped around the hottest parts of the barrel cools the cannon after each firing as very cold condensed water is captured by the condenser and returned to the reservoir.
Ninja'd by Chiefwaffles
Assuming this revision applies to both versions...
Revision: Cheaper Cannons
Make both versions of the hybrid cannons cheaper to use by designing a standardized manufacturing process for the cannons.
We need more reliable cannons, not cheaper ones. Our cannons are overheating and need temperature control. It would be better to fix our cannons than to mass produce them with the flaws they have.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 07:40:34 pm
I'm changing my vote. (I assumed before that the MK1 itself was Very Expensive, but now I think we should just revisit the MK1/2-r later and cheapen it, but for now let's use the regular variant)
Also, I'm going for a more Arstotzkian naming scheme in my future magitech revision/designs. I think the cannon warrants it now.
Revision: HC1/2-A (Longer-range Cannons)
Improvements to the barrels and projectiles allow for even greater range in the MK1 hybrid cannons. With this, we can bombard enemies from afar. Our ships will outrange theirs, our artillery will be able to fire on the enemy without any risk of counterfire. With this revision, the resulting version of the Hybrid Cannon MK1 will be called the HC1-A for "Hybrid Cannon MK1 - Artillery" and the MK2 will be called "HC2-A" for self-explanatory purposes. The current "-r" variants will become the "HCx-AR".
Think about it. This gives us a huge advantage.
1.) It effectively counters lucky strike on artillery for the time being. If their arrows and ballistae can't reach our artillery, then we don't need to worry about lucky strike.
2.) It will give us an advantage at sea - our ships will outrange theirs, giving us an advantage similar to the one that they had which let them beat us at sea. Reminder that we were told we will lose again at sea without any improvements in that regard.
3.) Long-range fireballs just bring them to par with existing artillery on both sides. This one is groundbreaking stuff.
So:
Quote
Designs
1 - HC1/2-A (Longer-range cannons): Chiefwaffles
1 - CSR (Cooling Steam Recycler): Roboson
Post by: Roboson on April 30, 2017, 08:06:36 pm
We don't need more reliable cannons.
But actually we really do.
Combat for 928
It doesn't help that our cannons explode with alarming frequency. Even when they don't, a misfire will result in the cannon jamming and being essentially useless for the battle.
It doesn't matter if our cannon can outrange them if it can't even fire. They jam and explode frequently, so a high rate of fire, good accuracy and great range only matter for a few shots. If we're going to compete with their lucky strike ballistas we need to be raining artillery on them, not shooting one volley and then losing our cannons to self-destruction.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 08:11:32 pm
It's an issue, but there are far more important things at stake.
"A few shots" is an extreme overstatement. Note how much our cannons are helping currently - even with the reliability issues, they evened the advantage Moskurg had with their ballistae.
Being able to fire a bit more would help, but the cannons would still be target to lucky shot ballistae strikes.
It also won't help that much on sea.
But with range, again, it's a groundbreaking improvement that Moskurg can't fight with yet. When our ships outrange theirs, it doesn't matter if ours break occasionally when we don't have to worry about counterattacks. Same for at land. When their ballistae and archers can't even reach our artillery at all, Lucky Strike becomes literally nonexistent for them.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on April 30, 2017, 08:18:17 pm
Quote
DesignsI'll admit the CSR sounds cool but it simply has to many ways to go wrong right compared to a increase in fire rate. While outranging them has much more use and would allow us to start to take back the seas keep our mages out of the line of fire.
2 - HC1/2-A (Longer-range cannons): Chiefwaffles, Stabby
1 - CSR (Cooling Steam Recycler): Roboson
Post by: Light forger on April 30, 2017, 08:40:56 pm
Quote
Designs
3 - HC1/2-A (Longer-range cannons): Chiefwaffles, Stabby, Lightforger
1 - CSR (Cooling Steam Recycler): Roboson
Post by: RAM on April 30, 2017, 08:43:30 pm
Basically a giant antimagic charm in the shape of a hexagonal prism with an Arstozkan crest one one side to indicate the safest side to be standing when it goes off. The increased size allows much more complexity, combined with our increase mathemagical knowledge we can increase the complexity of the effect and also imprint the magical signatures on the charm's natural structure, allowing it to operate without any magic whatsoever while also massively increasing the intensity and range of the effects. Unfortunately, the lack of magic prevents it from extending its influence at all, so it has precisely zero area of effect, but any magic that actually touches it, anything that our mathemagicians could hope to interpret as magic, will absolutely be absorbed and converted to sound upon contact. We even directed the sound as much as we could so that it is less pleasant for the people it is 'pointed at'. It is... 'advised' that people not touch it directly, but standard plate gauntlets should be abundant protection for handling the things.
Given that it has zero area of effect, it is not really any use for protecting a thing, but should create an impassable barrier against magical auras such as their antimagic, should be completely immune to antimagic itself, owing to forgoing magic after its construction, and serves as an introductory course in sonic-shotguns. all in the neat little package of a revision to upsize and demagic the antimagic charms.
Post by: Roboson on April 30, 2017, 08:59:23 pm
And so reliable steam power remains far out of reach. One day we may get there, but not today.
Quote
Designs
4 - HC1/2-A (Longer-range cannons): Chiefwaffles, Stabby, Lightforger, Roboson
0 - CSR (Cooling Steam Recycler):
Post by: evictedSaint on April 30, 2017, 09:37:51 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 09:44:40 pm
Mathemagics are utilized to optimize the pressure in the chambers for better overall ranges. In addition, firing angles are calculated beforehand and distributed to everyone handling firing angles. Therefor people can get the best range by using the correct firing angles without lengthy calculations in the midst of battle.
If anyone has a better description, please post it too.
EDIT: Don't use this one just yet please, evicted. If no one else posts anything I should have the one to actually Thalys post a better explanation soon-ish.
Post by: Light forger on April 30, 2017, 09:57:35 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on April 30, 2017, 10:09:25 pm
I vote for chain artillery, if we have less mages on the front line sit will be easier to protect them later.
Post by: Roboson on April 30, 2017, 10:10:13 pm
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 30, 2017, 10:11:28 pm
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 30, 2017, 10:12:07 pm
My vote.QuoteDesigns
4- HC1/2-A (Longer-range cannons): Chiefwaffles, Stabby, Lightforger
1 - CSR (Cooling Steam Recycler): Roboson
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 10:20:44 pm
HC1/2-A Revision Logic
Modifications in the chambers of the Hybrid Cannon are made to explicitly work with the more fundamental aspects of magic. Using mathemagics, we can modify the chamber designs to facilitate a kind of resonance in the PSF used inside. Therefore while using the same spell and same level of effort from the wizard, pressure in the cannon is significantly increased, allowing for far greater initial speeds and consequently greater ranges.
The idea behind the "resonance" inside the chambers is best described as that - resonance. The chamber amplifies the spell inside, allowing it to be more powerful.
Both the top and bottom are valid options, but I much prefer the second one. If we're allowed to base designs off of this beforehand, then I'd say only use the second one as long as it isn't for some reason considered new/risky. I don't think it is, but you never know. If we're not allowed to know that in advance, then I just say use the second explanation.
Also Tyrant, what did you vote? I'm assuming you're voting for the HC1/2-A but forgot to use your name and included an old version since Roboson switched his vote to the HC1/2-A. Sorry if I'm wrong.
Quote
Designs
5 - HC1/2-A (Longer-range cannons): Chiefwaffles, Stabby, Lightforger, Tyrant, Roboson.
1 - Chain Artillery: VoidSlayer
0 - CSR (Cooling Steam Recycler):
And @Roboson: I definitely think the CSR should be considered next round if we don't have anything critical needed in revisions.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 30, 2017, 10:22:54 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on April 30, 2017, 10:30:38 pm
There are many small things that can be done to improve the range on the HC1 and HC1-A. Shaped ammo is the most effective; changing the design to a cylinder with a bulging cone for a nose lets the cannon punch through the air more efficiently. The increased surface contact with the rifling also lets it spin faster by the time it leaves the barrel. Using more mundane applications of mathemagics we also determine the ballistic characteristics of HC1; something that must be done for each cannon, as there are variances between each one. We form handy-dandy ballistics charts showing the engineer the proper angle to fire at, the expected accuracy at each range, and the drop-off to be expected. Smaller things include tightening the adjoining pieces of the cannon and boiler, standardizing the water load for each firing event (and finding the optimal amount), and making modifications to the weapons carriage to allow it to brace against the ground once emplaced rather than sit on wheels. These allow us to go from Long-Range to Extreme-Range.
Once again, these fixes are all rather expensive and time consuming. The shaped ammo is most effective on our rifled HC1-A's, and developing the ballistics chart for each cannon takes multiple firing tests. This is enough to push the range modifications into Very Expensive. We've taken the liberty of combining the range modifications with the accuracy modifications, giving the HC1-A's a new designation of HC1-Elite.
We've about reached the edge of our maximum effective range. Much further than this and we wont have visual of what we're shooting at; at that point it wont matter how accurate the cannon is. Very Expensive.
Note: This is pushed up to Very Expensive because I couldn't think of a satisfying explanation for how your Mathemagicians could fuck up so many simple things and prevent it from being effective.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 30, 2017, 10:40:39 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 10:41:56 pm
I just hope we're deploying the HC1-Elite along with regular HC1's. Because I'm still optimistic in their use (while annoyed by the FAILURES OF OUR MATHEMAGICIANS). They'll still be quite useful, providing key fire support
Anywhoo, list for future things we can/should do with the HC:
- Lower the expense of HC1-Elite. We've at least been kind of lucky because all we need to do is a simple expense revision to get the actual benefits of both revisions.)
- Cooling Steam Recycler - Reliability (Which, in combination with #1, should hopefully give us Expensive HC2-Elites.)
- Increased damage/destruction - Specialized shells, payloads, magical shells, whatever; some way to increase the damage caused by hits.
- Magical/Mundane Sighting - Develop some kind of system allowing our HCx-Elite crews to fire without direct line of sight; Some kind of magical vision spell would work great for this but would still be risky. A more mundane system of just spotters could possibly be done, but that's very kludge-y and would limit us at the cost of a design slot.
- Better range - With the above sighting implemented, the HCx-Elites can be given even better ranges allowing them to reign even more supreme!
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on April 30, 2017, 10:48:52 pm
And due to time restraints. Cannot reveal al crazy plant stuff I had in mind. Again.
Post by: Azzuro on April 30, 2017, 11:41:51 pm
HC1: Same cannon, with improved carriage to fire down and iron ammunition. Expensive (Still in use)
HC1-Elite: HC1 Cannon with rifling and range improvements. Very Expensive (Might be in use in single digits?)
HC2: HC1 Cannon with defective freezing spell and steam recycler for reliability/firerate, a one-shot wonder. Very Expensive (Not in use)
HC2-Elite: Presumably a HC2 with rifling and range improvements. Very Expensive (Not in use)
Despite the string of 1's, I think it's fortunate that the issues for -Elite variants seem to be cost only. Next turn, I suggest designing the Fog-O-War, and spending the revision to lower the cost of HC1-Elite, as Chiefwaffles suggested.
On the Sea, we now have the range advantage. If we can get the speed advantage as well with steam power, then the seas are ours, helping us in the Jungle as well.
Oh and Chiefwaffles, could you not auto-assume that people vote for their own designs? I think that's part of the problem we had in coming to a consensus earlier, as it just scatters more 1-votes around rather than creating 2-3 leading designs.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on April 30, 2017, 11:50:41 pm
I still want to find a way to counter lucky shot next turn and I'm unsure of the feasibility of designing a steam-powered ship now, but I am open to the Fog-O-War design next turn.
Post by: Roboson on May 01, 2017, 12:21:34 am
1) We could make our ammo super light when we first fire it, only to become heavy again after it gets out of the range of the spellcaster.
2) We can make giant domes of crystal that our soldiers can carry with ease (as crystal is already light and we make it lighter, it would be like a mobile fortress)
3) We can make our ships (and our heavy as hell steam engines) super light to make them much faster.
4) We can make our cannons light for easier transportation.
5) Gateway to airplanes.
Post by: Tyrant Leviathan on May 01, 2017, 12:29:38 am
Post by: evictedSaint on May 01, 2017, 12:37:04 am
Nightly raids still result in death for both sides, as no new technologies have been developed to assist in skirmishes. Arstotzka does slightly better.
Combat has been much different since the advent of artillery that's reliable, plentiful, and accurate enough to be a crucial component of warfare. The majority of casualties is no longer a result of arrow, axe, sword or lance. Most of those who die never see the face of their attacker, only hearing instead the whistle of an artillery shell or hiss of a javelin. Even the structure of forces has changed; infantry now hide behind their vulnerable artillery pieces, rushing forward only to meet a charge. Archers are mostly useless, being out-ranged by the artillery and out-defended by both sides armor (although they are still modestly effective against Moskurgs at close range). Their main use now is to shoot down incoming calvary charges, as the horses still gallop with their manes in the wind.
Our forces begin nearly every engagement. Our cannons strike from beyond their range, but the limited amount of HC1-E's mean the shells are few in number. Despite the increased range they still hit more accurately than before; after being targeted, it's only a matter of time before a stray shell spikes through an enemy ballista and destroys it. Though the jungle is mostly dead aside from the largest of trees and the occasional oddly-sprouted patch of plants, we have found a way to hide when a barrage is about to happen. Our front lines are frequently clouded with mist, keeping them from viewing our actions. We keep a few spotters ahead of the mist who shout back to our cannons. At this extreme range our shells don't "skip" along the ground, instead hitting more perpendicular to the ground as they have further to fall. Considering we are aiming to snipe artillery pieces, this is fine. As soon as shelling starts Moskurg siege engineers hurriedly wheel their weapons forward, marching through our artillery fire until they're in range. At this point the rest of our cannons begin firing in full-force, covering the nearby area with craters. Moskurg returns the favor, sending death sailing towards our lines.
The first time they hit us it's...devastating.
With their uncanny accuracy they can't miss. The first shell lands square on one of our cannons, instantly engulfing it and everyone nearby in flame. Our men don't even have time to scream. It's like a fireball, but worse - not even heavy rain will put out the flames on the ground. Before it would take several shots with boulder or javelin to render a cannon inert, but now only a single hit will destroy it. We still manage to destroy several of their ballistas from extreme range; enough to make a significant difference and hamper their ability to return fire, but our accuracy is inferior. Once the enemy starts gaining the upper hand we are forced to move our infantry forward. With fewer working ballistas we can't hit our infantry as hard as they could, but their fires still do the heavy lifting this fight. They're not as large as our PSF's, but they burn for so much longer. It splashes on impact, alighting multiple men at once who then either cook inside their armor or suffocate from the fumes. The battlefield is a hellish sight; dead vegetation, craters pock-marking the ground, and patches of flame illuminating the heavy steel armor of men charging through the rain. Once joined in melee it doesn't take long before we are pushed back, but it's not as sound a routing as it'd been the past few years. Their own men are likewise ragged from the shelling, and no matter how many cannons they destroy they can't reach the HC1-E's in our back lines, meaning we can chip away.
When they return the assault, it's just as bad for our troops. We begin firing long before they're in range from behind a curtain of mist that is difficult to blow away. Their ballistas go ahead first to try and soften us up, but they start off at a disadvantage and it shows. Still, their superior accuracy and terrifying new fire pushes our lines back the tiniest amount with each assault, even as their men continue to be pelted from extreme range as they march forward.
They make a small amount of ground; it's not much, but we were on the backfoot last year and they manage to press the advantage to secure a section of jungle.
Our Theatre Commander asks for longer-range artillery. The HC1-E's are fantastic, and if we had more of them we could have fought them to a stalemate. Hell, maybe even push them back a bit! Anti-infantry shells are also needed, especially at longer range. If we DO get something that can fire from beyond Extreme Range, we will need some way to spot the enemy - that's not crucial for the moment, but it's something to consider in the future.
Moskurg gains a section of jungle.
Our longer-range artillery is especially effective in the mountains. Their castles are chipped to death from far away, requiring them to sally forth to meet us. These sallies almost always end in defeat; we ambush them or shredded them with artillery fire before they can get in range. Their advancement is likewise stymied; we are expecting them now, so they don't have the element of surprise. They cannot sit back and chip us to death as both sides have equal range and our cannons have a height advantage atop our walls. The fact that our new depression angle gives us greater flexibility helps us repel attackers, something the Theatre Commander is thankful for. They make limited progress here, and lose a castle. Moskurg is on the back foot.
Our Theatre Commander asks for more longer-range cannons to secure our advantage. He once again points out that they had a bonus last time since we were caught unawares; perhaps an assault on the plains would be something to consider? Surely they won't be expecting us there.
Neither side gains ground in the Mountains.
Both sides exchange lethal blows on the Western Sea. We have cannons that can out-range their ships, and cannon fire is especially effective when it hits. The story changes when they manage to close the distance to long-range, however; their fire shells hit with deadly effect. A single hit causes a ship to burn up and continue to burn even as it sinks below the waves. The fact that their faster ships let them determine the range of combat is their saving grace; they lose many ships from their long-range and accurate cannons, but their fire does more damage from closer range. We backslide a bit further - we don't give up a lot of ground, but they manage to secure a bit more coastline since we were on the back foot last year. They now hold the majority of the coast, and will control it entirely if they gain another section.
Our new Theatre Commander is a seasoned veteran. Their fire is a problem - since Arstotzka has experience with fire, could you perhaps develop a spell to put it out? Faster ships would let us determine the range of combat, making better use of our limited HC1-E's. Oh, and he also requests more of them, too.
Moskurg gains ground in the Western Sea.
Expense Credit: We spy a familiar sight this year; T’ung-K’ao sails once more into our harbors. Our thanes go down to greet him at the docks; once his ship is moored and he is disembarked he flings a handful of cheap gemstones in our faces. He's picked up a bit of Arstotzkan since he last visited, and through broken tongue he explains his seething anger. He returned all the way to his homeland by the time he checked the crate, only instead of finding his razor-sharp magical crystal axes he instead finds a nearly-empty box and cheap gems rolling around inside. He makes quite a scene, screaming at our men in broken Arstotzkan. He demands that we repay him. Either we give him an actual magical item to make up for the one we sold him two years ago, or simply return the money he spent (which would mean no revision this year). Our nobles aren't particularly thrilled about either idea; one points out that his ship is sitting low in the water. If we seize his ship, we may find enough treasure aboard to afford an Expense Credit. What do we do?
It is 930, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 930 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Behavior Rules. Please Read.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 12:40:36 am
- Get the HC1-E to Expensive levels and replace the HC1 with it. (It'd be great if we could do the same for the HC2-E, to save time later)
- Steam-powered Artillery Ship - Basically the Fog-O-War (though I really dislike that name) but with the explicit capability to provide ground support via HC1-E shelling.
- Counter their anti-magic and/or Lucky Strike
- Fix the HC2-E. Hopefully #1 also covered lowering the expense of the HC1-E, so we just need the Cooling Steam Recycler revision to be able to replace the HC1-E's with HC2-E's.
Also possible naming scheme:
SPB1-A "Fog-O-War"
Steam-Powered Boat - Artillery "Fog-O-War"
Also, anyone notice how the HCx-E fires shells now? Based on the description, the HCx-E seems to be getting quite close to WW1 artillery.
EDIT: Of course I get ninja'd by evicted.
So.
WE NEED TO COUNTER LUCKY STRIKE
The fire stuff is also a problem but less so.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 12:41:52 am
We made WW1.
Congratulations everyone.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 01, 2017, 12:43:36 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 12:44:51 am
Post by: evictedSaint on May 01, 2017, 12:46:45 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 12:49:07 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 12:57:16 am
At least evicted was kind enough to make it so even with both 1's we could still recover the HCx-E's with a single revision. The HC2 thing is incredibly annoying, as well.
Anywhoo.
Anchored Crystal Canopy
Crystal Canopy - A large, immobile shield of crystal that can cover a group of mages and a small surrounding area. It blocks only from above with a slanted design. A portion of it is summoned separately to allow a "firing port" which can be dismissed and re-summoned quickly to allow the cannon to fire out.In addition to the specifications outlined in the original Crystal Canopy design, the Anchored Crystal Canopy is formed in a way vaguely similar to a cheaper version of our anti-magic charms. The crystal acts like a "reversed" anti-magic charm in which it amplifies the "ambient magic" used to maintain the crystal. While the effect is much more mild than that of an anti-magic charm and its area of effect is limited to strictly the crystal itself, it does allow for the crystal to remain stable even in enemy anti-magic fields. And contrary to the "Anchored" in the name, it can be used on boats.
It is designed to be actively maintained by a squad of mages who will be under it.
To be used to protect against enemy Lucky Shot projectiles - their ballistae, arrows, fire things, and more.
...that or something explicitly countering lucky shot. Like not just "this makes it less bad" or anything like that, but making Lucky Shot useless. Lucky Shot is the #1 reason why we're losing ground and we need to end it this turn. If someone suggests something better, than I'll gladly vote for it. I know Anchored Crystal Canopy is risky, but we just have to take risks at this point.
Quote
Designs
1 - Anchored Crystal Canopy
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 12:59:17 am
What do you think happens to a bunker when a flaming projectile gets lobbed through the window?
On that note, I can not phantom how the Moskurgians did it. Given the well accepted -2 penalty for a new field, it should not even have been physically possible for them to have eone this.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 01:02:01 am
- More HC1-Es. This can be solved in a simple expense revision, but considering our luck we'll probably accidently make the HC1-E a national effort. Sulk.
- PROTECTION AGAINST GODDAMN LUCKY SHOT
- A counter against that fire thing of theirs. Countering lucky shot should make it a lot less awful, and things like the crystal canopy could alleviate the effects, but it's still a problem. And from a precursory look at it, it seems like any actual counter for it would be useless for anything else. Annoying.
- Faster ships. See the fog-o-war stuff. More HC1-Es should prevent us from losing the sea unless they get another completely new design with tons of 6's.
@Ebbor: The window is explicitly made "closeable". As VoidSlayer detailed in his original post:
Quote
A portion of it is summoned separately to allow a "firing port" which can be dismissed and re-summoned quickly to allow the cannon to fire out.It will only be open for very short periods of time right as the cannon fires. And I doubt even Lucky Strike can exploit that.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 01:07:19 am
Ray of Frost Based on our well known fire technology, this ray of frost siphons heat from whatever the target is firing at, quickly quenching flames. That it can be used in ambushes to stealthily freeze guardsand turn of lamps or torches is a bonus.
GM : Did the Moskurgian flames work in vicinity of our anti-magic charms?
Quote
It will only be open for very short periods of time right as the cannon fires. And I doubt even Lucky Strike can exploit that.
Humans need oxygen. A fire on top of the bunker will soon incapacitate those within.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 01, 2017, 01:11:16 am
Quote
GM : Did the Moskurgian flames work in vicinity of our anti-magic charms?
Yes. It's also foul, sticky, and produces noxious fumes. It's likely the sort of thing Moskurg soldiers would mix in with their booze.
Post by: Azzuro on May 01, 2017, 01:12:49 am
The final refinement of our prototype steam-powered ship is to supply the water intake via a Channelled Fog spell, thus eliminating the problem of salt building up in the pipes and increasing the efficiency as pure water boils at a lower temperature than seawater. Using the freezing spell-powered steam condenser from the HC2, the steam produced is not vented but is reused, thus helping to solve the problem of the drive belt slipping due to wetness. The new ship is thus named the Arstotzkan Fog-O-War, and with its speed and range advantage both, will help us rule the waves in the Western Sea.
Quote
Designs
1 - Anchored Crystal Canopy: Chiefwaffles
1 - Fog-O-War: Azzuro
Yes, I'm thinking the Fog-O-War is important enough that I'm voting for my own design. Remember, if Moskurg seizes the Western Sea, then we will be fighting a losing battle in the Jungle no matter what. And we don't know how close they are to controlling the Sea, either!
EDIT: Seconding ebbor's question. I was thinking that they might have reversed engineered one of our fireball spells, but I don't see how.
DOUBLEEDIT: So their fire shells are non-magical then. Good to know.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 01:17:30 am
Also possible naming scheme:And it should probably explicitly include artillery shore support in its design. It's not really anything that needs to be added the extreme-range of HCx-E's should allow the boats to serve support roles on land, and already they're fitted on some boats.
SPB1-A "Fog-O-War"
Steam-Powered Boat - Artillery "Fog-O-War"
And Ebbor:
I guess we could go with that, but it feels like it could be a bit more. The skirmish use is nice but it's still frustrating having to use a design on this. I am assuming Ebbor is voting for his own design. Please feel free to fix it if you were not doing so.
Quote
Designs
2 - Ray of Frost: 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles
1 - Fog-O-War: Azzuro
0 - Anchored Crystal Canopy: Chiefwaffles
Post by: Roboson on May 01, 2017, 01:36:49 am
Got to three minutes and 45 seconds. That is what we need. :P
Post by: Azzuro on May 01, 2017, 01:37:11 am
The final refinement of our prototype steam-powered ship is to supply the water intake via a Channelled Fog spell, thus eliminating the problem of salt building up in the pipes and increasing the efficiency as pure water boils at a lower temperature than seawater. Using the freezing spell-powered steam condenser from the HC2, the steam produced is not vented but is reused, thus helping to solve the problem of the drive belt slipping due to wetness. HC1-E steam hybrid cannons provide its firepower, allowing it to shell land and sea targets alike from extreme range. The new ship is thus named the Arstotzkan Fog-O-War, and with its speed and range advantage both, will help us rule the waves in the Western Sea.
I don't think such a naming scheme is necessary unless we're going to be fielding multiple types of boats.
Post by: Roboson on May 01, 2017, 01:47:19 am
Design: Fog-O-War
Using the freezing spell-powered steam condenser from the HC2, the steam produced is not vented but is reused, thus helping to solve the problem of the drive belt slipping due to wetness.
We don't have this. The freezing spell is on the barrel of the cannon not the condenser and is too powerful so it freezes the cannon. Its why we don't use the MK2.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 01:48:53 am
Also, I sure hope we're making ironclads at some point.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 01, 2017, 01:53:44 am
We don't have this. The freezing spell is on the barrel of the cannon not the condenser and is too powerful so it freezes the cannon. Its why we don't use the MK2.
You would not receive a bonus to the roll because you do not have a working copy. You would not receive a penalty to the roll because you've tried it before.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 01:58:58 am
They managed to make a fireweapon that is longer ranged than our fireballs, magic proof, apperently cheaper, seemingly deadlier, stays in place, and all that.
Well, I'll scrap the range, that comes from their ballistae.
I'm going to call upon Rule 2.
Quote
2. Keep in mind that I am not a historian, so there will sometimes be mistakes and inaccuracies. Even in the best of circumstances, minor inconsistencies are a common occurrence. If some piece of equipment is imbalanced/unrealistic, I might consider changing it if you bring it up once -AND ONLY ONCE- and politely state your argument. However, I will err on the side of consistency with my own game, I do not like to go back and change things. Sometimes it is more important to simply keep the game running smoothly than other concerns
My argument here is simple.
It is inconsistent for a single design roll to be vastly more powerfull than several design rolls made over a long period of time.
To start: By virtue of being magical, magical fire must be better than normal fire. If it isn't (ie, mundane fireweapons are easier to develop than fireballs), then we got heavily disadvantaged when choosing our starting wand. I assume Iituem did not intend that, so to be consistent magical fire must be better than normal fire.
After all, I would not expect a simple designed peptalk to defeat Moskurg's wand of heroism.
Now, the modifiers we got for our fireball wand were significant. We got -1 for Firewand reverse engineering, and -1 for making it stick for an hour. I emphatize that was with a design bonus.
Secondly, the design is ahistorical. The molotov cocktail was invented in the second world war. That is several centuries further away than our steam engine. Sure, alternative fire things existed in history, but those all relied on rare resources Moskurg should not posses.
Third, it's not consistent with our own rolls. When we designed the Design: Antimagic Bombs [6, 4, 5], which were even based on existing tech, we had serious limitations in range, applicability and damage. It was an explosive arrow that needed repeated fire to pierce shields. It started fires, but only very tiny ones. It had shrapnel, but stopped by armor. Our enemy does not share any of those disadvantages for their fire-stuff. In fact, their fire-stuff is completely immune to means of stopping fire.
Therefore, I do not think the design is consistent with either historical interpretations nor game mechanics as applied before now.
Post by: Light forger on May 01, 2017, 02:10:55 am
A fairly simple gem designed to be place in the back of our cannon shells. Once exposed to a great amount of heat(like our cannons firing) the flameblast gem actives and sends a powerful continual jet of fire out of the back of the shell. The jet isn't enough to fully counter the force of gravity but, can massively extend the range of our cannons let us hit things like castles from far out of eyesight. Once the shell hits something the shock breaks the gem causes it to shatter and release the remaining magic within in a massive explosion able to outright incarcerate a man if the gems doesn't travel too far. The gems are made by our mages inscribing a spell into them and then infusing them with the magical energy akin to dozen or so castings of fireball.
Quote
Designs
2 - Ray of Frost: 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles
1 - Fog-O-War: Azzuro
1 - Flameblast Gems: Lightforger
0 - Anchored Crystal Canopy: Chiefwaffles
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 02:13:32 am
Beyond visual range is not that great.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 02:17:36 am
That's a missile. And I love it.
But I think we have bigger problems than that - namely the fire and all the other stuff I outlined earlier.
And, most importantly, what Ebbor just ninja'd me on - there's no point in increasing the range of our cannons before we devise a more efficient method of spotting. Speaking of which, we could:
- Telepathic communication? Doesn't have to be specific or conversational; just a location or numbers or whatever.
- General farsight-scrying-type spell where the user can look far ahead of their normal line of sight.
-
- Probably other things as well.
Also, even if any of these things are Very Expensive, one wizard equipped with one of these things - telepathy, scrying, whatever - can act as the spotter to multiple artillery emplacements. With the carrier animals, one wizard can receive, then relay message to multiple emplacements. Etc.
But again, this isn't important right now. Later, sure, but not at the moment.
Post by: Roboson on May 01, 2017, 02:19:57 am
Spoiler: Visual Aid (click to show/hide)
Frost Pulsar
This superweapon is a culmination of everything we've been researching. It is a modified Tower of Frost designed to created a repeated effect rather than a constant one. It does so through the use of specially designed quartz crystals that are used like magic batteries, absorbing energy for a bit and then releasing it all at once. The result is a directional frozen pulse of immense magical proportions. It flies forward through the air with incredible force, destabilizing the trajectory of anything trying to push against it. In essence, its a highly powerful magical pulse firing in a directed path. This does little to effect projectiles travelling with the pulse, even pushes them along a bit. But projectile trying to pass through this magically charged frozen pulse is going to be knocked backwards and frozen solid.
Edit: Now that I think about it, may be able to be used directly against enemy troops to flash freeze them.
Post by: Light forger on May 01, 2017, 02:23:03 am
Linked Gems
Simple and seemly pointless paired gemstones work by letting a mage active one gemstone causing the other to glow even across great distances. Our mages by looking for either short or long glow periods can send messages to each other. Their are some minor limits the largest being the greater the distance the greater the magic needed for them to work. Nonetheless this not only lets our commanders send messages to distance forts but, also lets our cannoners fire at targets out of eyesight by relaying to a mage watching the area.
aka a magic telegraph
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 02:23:53 am
Quote
Expense Credit: We spy a familiar sight this year; T’ung-K’ao sails once more into our harbors. Our thanes go down to greet him at the docks; once his ship is moored and he is disembarked he flings a handful of cheap gemstones in our faces. He's picked up a bit of Arstotzkan since he last visited, and through broken tongue he explains his seething anger. He returned all the way to his homeland by the time he checked the crate, only instead of finding his razor-sharp magical crystal axes he instead finds a nearly-empty box and cheap gems rolling around inside. He makes quite a scene, screaming at our men in broken Arstotzkan. He demands that we repay him. Either we give him an actual magical item to make up for the one we sold him two years ago, or simply return the money he spent (which would mean no revision this year). Our nobles aren't particularly thrilled about either idea; one points out that his ship is sitting low in the water. If we seize his ship, we may find enough treasure aboard to afford an Expense Credit. What do we do?
Give him Dogwood wands. Include an entire tree, so that he can make new ones.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 02:25:49 am
Also give the trader him an apprentice and more crystal weaponry that the apprentice can maintain. We can tell the apprentice that he's acting as a foreign diplomat! He gets to experience the sea! Receive a huge pay check if he comes home!! What fun and adventure!
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 02:37:02 am
Offer the Trader:
- An education in the AAAA, if he has even the slightest bit of magical talent
- A Dogwood wand and tree
- An Artotzkan apprentince/diplomatic delegation
- Crystal weapons created on demand
- A magical icecube creator, akso known as the barrel of a Mk2
- A magucal Sauna, also known as tge boiler of a Mark 2
- An Anti-magic charm, to protect him from evil magic
All that for the expense credit in his holds.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 01, 2017, 02:42:27 am
Post by: Azzuro on May 01, 2017, 02:43:23 am
Quote from: Designs
2 - Ray of Frost: 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles
1 - Fog-O-War: Azzuro
1 - Flameblast Gems: Lightforger
0 - Anchored Crystal Canopy:
0 - Frost Pulsar:
0 - Linked Gems:
0 - HC1-E Mobile:
Quote from: Trader Actions
1 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree: Azzuro
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
0 - Give him Everything:
Collated votes so far. While I think the Adventures of An Apprentice Appointed Arstotzkan Ambassador is hilarious, I don't think he would be receptive to more crystal weapons.
Post by: Light forger on May 01, 2017, 02:49:34 am
On a different matter I think there should be three over arching goal for our future designs:
-A way of storing and using magic without a mage(outside of maybe recharging).
-A way of using magic to improve our normal stuff aka magical forging or smelting.
-A way of countering the enemies anti-magic(either by making all our stuff 'mundane' or making a anti-anti-magic field).
Also Azzuro the linked gems are just an idea for a future revision not a real design.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 02:51:15 am
Post by: RAM on May 01, 2017, 02:52:47 am
Knowing that Keggers lack the skill to shoot straight, and the ancient texts suggesting the existence of fortune magic, we have concluded that the Keggers are manipulating fortune. It is also noted that it is not actually possible to make weapons which are so accurate at such range with such projectiles.
Concluding that there is a magical means of manipulating luck, we have poured over our antimagic research and every mathemagical analysis that we have ever done with a certainty that there is a fortune component to magic and that it must be found. After spending months with massive prototype antimagic charms modified and focused, aiming exclusively at specific magical elements we have finally distilled the 'luck' aspect to magic. A thorough analysis leads us to believe that magical fortune is reciprocal. That is, it is shared by all entities influence by it. A gambler who wins a coin toss and their opponent who loses are both subject to the same 'luck' event, one receiving fortune and the other misfortune as parts of a single instance of fortune. Likewise, a wholly beneficial act, such as fair weather, Is distributed amongst all people who wanted a picnic, and opposed to everyone who prefers moody weather... Thus, it seems impossible to benefit from good fortune at the expense of another unless they are also subject to ill fortune.
We do not know anything about actually controlling it in any conventional sense, but we have specialised versions of our antimagic charms that instead of draining magic they only drain fortune. 'Luck', be it good or ill, becomes impossible within the area, which has been greatly increased over the now-old charms of before, and can protect an entire cannon and its crew. While we have concerns as to what this will do to morale, as exceptional successes often support the mood, it has become clear that the common Kegger is just too lucky...
Design: Ragnarok
We recall every wizard above apprentice level and Myark to a large, fixed, ritual circle within 100 kilometres of the target. They then spend a full two days generating the spell, which takes the form of a summoned quartz prism that contains fireballs, many, many, many fireballs. As many as every mage assembled(aside from Myark) can create over that timeframe(Assuming 500 wizards at one per minute over two days... 720000? They are loaded up with natural stimulants and kept awake and well-supported by a large staff of retainers, but sleeping can be completed after the great magic.) While Myark personally guides the overspell. The overspells is the conjuration of the prism at a remote location which, upon the spell's completion, appears with the total energy of the combined magic. Using Myark's superior mathematgical and trigothaumical abilities to visualise a distant target provided by redundant runners and scouts the prism can be materialised accurately... enough... at any point within 100 kilometres. At which point it typically falls towards the ground, but rarely has the stability to survive that long before releasing the assembled fireballs, trapped at the moment just after they began exploding.
May involve casualties and exhaustion amongst the casters...
1 fireball can blast a squad, 100 men, assume loose formation, 1x1 metre each, give them a circular pattern because too generous for my own good... Oh, lets be very generous and assume they are in spherical formation so the fireball has a volume of exactly 200 cubic metres. Do a little maths to add together the radius of all those balls... ... ... large?
Order, turn up the volume! All frost towers, maximum power!
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 02:59:20 am
Quote from: Trader Actions
1 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree: AzzuroI added the relevant text to the merchant actions quote so evicted won't have to look for it himself and potentially make a mistake.
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
1 - Give him Everything: Chiefwaffles
"Offer the Trader:
- An education in the AAAA, if he has even the slightest bit of magical talent
- A Dogwood wand and tree
- An Artotzkan apprentince/diplomatic delegation
- Crystal weapons created on demand
- A magical icecube creator, akso known as the barrel of a Mk2
- A magucal Sauna, also known as tge boiler of a Mark 2
- An Anti-magic charm, to protect him from evil magic
All that for the expense credit in his holds."
@Roboson: The Frost Pulsar has promise and even though it's not too much of a stretch from our current magical stuff, it does seem a bit out of reach so far. What about a design between the Ray of Frost and Frost Pulsar? Basically the Ray of Frost but also able to "deflect" projectiles to a slight degree?
My own visual aid:
Spoiler: Visual Aid (click to show/hide)
@RAM:
Hey! That's a Death Ball! That sounds like a filthy Moskurgian design that only cowards would use!
Post by: Roboson on May 01, 2017, 03:02:56 am
Of course that means I'd have to sit out on the game for a bit, but I'm fine with that. A sidequest sounds quite interesting if its allowed.
Quote from: Designs
2 - Ray of Frost: 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles
1 - Fog-O-War: Azzuro
1 - Flameblast Gems: Lightforger
0 - Anchored Crystal Canopy:
1 - Frost Pulsar: Roboson
0 - Linked Gems:
0 - HC1-E Mobile:
Quote from: Trader Actions
1 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree: Azzuro
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
0 - Give him Everything:
1- Send Everything including Roboson
Also frost pulsar is just ray of frost, but over a larger area and with the ability to knock their projectiles out of the sky (counter to lucky strike).
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 03:05:03 am
Evicted, can we do what Roboson's proposing? Please?
And about the Frost Pulsar, how about just removing the "tower" aspect (too fixed and almost definitely guaranteeing a Very Expensive at the last) and instead going for spell or charm, and decreasing the strength so it just "knocks projectiles just off-course enough to miss"?
I'd gladly vote for it if someone submits a design like that.
Post by: Roboson on May 01, 2017, 03:08:53 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 03:13:10 am
Post by: RAM on May 01, 2017, 03:16:03 am
Quote
2 - Ray of Frost: 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles
1 - Fog-O-War: Azzuro
1 - Flameblast Gems: Lightforger
1 - Anchored Crystal Canopy: RAM
1 - Frost Pulsar: Roboson
0 - Linked Gems:
0 - HC1-E Mobile:
0 - antiluck charm(RAM)
0 - Ragnarok(RAM)
Quote from: Trader Actions
Quote
1 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree: Azzuro
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
0 - Give him Everything:
1- Send Everything including Roboson
1- The viking way: RAM
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 03:19:57 am
Quote
Trader ActionsLink included as a less clunky way of making it easy for Evicted to find the actual proposal. I didn't hide the link so it's easier to copy+paste.
1 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree: Azzuro
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
1 - Give him Everything: Chiefwaffles (Link to full proposal: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7439939#msg7439939 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7439939#msg7439939))
1 - Send Everything including Roboson
1 - The viking way: RAM
Post by: Roboson on May 01, 2017, 03:46:54 am
Anti-projectile Ammunition
A modified version of our rifled ammunition, this new ammo has long spinning wires attached that deploy upon being fired from the cannon. They spin at a high rate and stabilize the flight path of the shell (as they don't impede the spinning effect of the riflery). These wires (think weed-whacker with hooks on the end) are designed to disrupt the flight path of any incoming projectiles. Crossing paths with their projectiles isn't an issue as we are aiming at their ballistas plus the wires are quite long. The wires have no trouble wrapping around enemy projectiles and plummeting them to the ground. They are intended to be shot at enemy ballistas and are meant to be an intercept weapon. In the case that they don't run into enemy projectile mid-air, they crash into enemy lines and ballistas like a giant blender. It's not pretty.
Post by: RAM on May 01, 2017, 03:51:54 am
Have we found ruins of any containers?
Post by: Light forger on May 01, 2017, 03:54:27 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 04:00:17 am
Again, I'd like to point out if someone submits a design for a scaled-down Frost Pulsar (to where barring awful rolls, it can be expected to be Expensive or Regular) allowing for the same functions of Ray of Frost as well as limited knocking projectiles off course, then I'd happily support it.
Post by: Light forger on May 01, 2017, 04:09:05 am
Post by: RAM on May 01, 2017, 04:10:55 am
I'd happily support it.Frostball:
We inverted a fireball and dragged it our to boring lengths. Instead of creating a cluster of energy the shoots to a target and then loses containment and spills everywhere, it creates a energy concentrator that constantly absorbs everything in its radius as it travels, until it expires, into, surprisingly enough, a fireball. Okay, so the name isn't perfect but it really is the opposite of a fireball, please believe us, the mathemagician that named it is super-pedantic and it will drive me insane otherwise...
Basically a moving implosion that pulls heat and matter towards itself, knocking projectiles off-course and chilling them. Also pulling soldiers towards itself and chilling them. Less range than a fireball, alas, due to the constant effect, but can royally murder a formation's line if it passes through them knocking them all together and leaving them with a nervous chill(a chill that makes them nervous, rather than a chill derived from nervousness, which would be the normal usage of the phrase...) and then exploding in the squad behind them...
It is basically combination frost-tower + fireball, with a support from our knowledge of sucking that we got from antimagic charms.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 04:19:11 am
Though...
Frostball Addendum: As long as the caster isn't extraordinarily stupid and skipped his Spell Targeting 101 at the Academy, Frostballs can be used to extinguish nearby and distant fires as well, as they 'absorb' and chill the fires as it travels past them. This is more of a clarification, since I can see Evicted missing the use of it for extinguishing things.
I'm also assuming RAM is voting for the Frostball. Feel free to correct me.
Quote
Designs
2 - Frostball: RAM, Chiefwaffles
1 - Ray of Frost: 10ebbor10
1 - Fog-O-War: Azzuro
1 - Flameblast Gems: Lightforger
1 - Anchored Crystal Canopy: RAM
1 - Frost Pulsar: Roboson
0 - Linked Gems:
0 - HC1-E Mobile:
0 - antiluck charm(RAM)
0 - Ragnarok(RAM)
Quote
Trader Actions
1 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree: Azzuro
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
1 - Give him Everything: Chiefwaffles (Link to full proposal: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7439939#msg7439939 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7439939#msg7439939))
1 - Send Everything including Roboson
1 - The viking way: RAM
Post by: Azzuro on May 01, 2017, 04:20:58 am
Quote
Designs
2 - Frostball: RAM, Chiefwaffles
1 - Ray of Frost: 10ebbor10
1 - Fog-O-War: Azzuro
1 - Flameblast Gems: Lightforger
1 - Anchored Crystal Canopy: RAM
1 - Frost Pulsar: Roboson
0 - HC1-E Mobile:
0 - antiluck charm(RAM)
0 - Anti-Projectile Ammunition
Quote
Trader Actions
0 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree:
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
1 - Give him Everything: Chiefwaffles (Link to full proposal: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7439939#msg7439939 )
2 - Send Everything including Roboson: Roboson, Azzuro
1 - The viking way: RAM
Changing my vote to sending Ambassador Roboson. If that's possible, of course, otherwise consider it a vote for Everything. Also removed RAM's Ragnarok design, because I thought we were sticking to max two designs per person. And the Linked Gems, because those were intended as a revision or future design.
They now hold the majority of the coast, and will control it entirely if they gain another section.
Our new Theatre Commander is a seasoned veteran. Their fire is a problem - since Arstotzka has experience with fire, could you perhaps develop a spell to put it out? Faster ships would let us determine the range of combat, making better use of our limited HC1-E's. Oh, and he also requests more of them, too.
Emphasis mine. If they win the Western Sea, they WILL win the Jungle in short order with the resultant bonus. Please don't let this happen, vote for Fog-O-War ships.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 04:25:35 am
Quote
Oh, and he also requests more of them, too.I don't think the Fog-O-War would be a bad choice, but I would like to emphasize this quote also given by the Theatre Commander. This revision cycle we should be reducing the expense of HC1-E's, and that'll significantly help us at sea. Also, both the Frostball and Ray of Frost designs solve the fire issue mentioned by the Commander, which I believe is the #1 reason we lost at sea.
Also switching my vote in Trader Actions to Send Everything Including Roboson with the same conditions as Azzuro - just voting for Send Everything if the Roboson part isn't possible.
Quote
Designs
2 - Frostball: RAM, Chiefwaffles
1 - Ray of Frost: 10ebbor10
1 - Fog-O-War: Azzuro
1 - Flameblast Gems: Lightforger
1 - Anchored Crystal Canopy: RAM
1 - Frost Pulsar: Roboson
0 - Linked Gems:
0 - HC1-E Mobile:
0 - antiluck charm(RAM)
0 - Anti-Projectile Ammunition
Quote
Trader Actions
0 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree:
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
0 - Give him Everything: Chiefwaffles (Link to full proposal: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7439939#msg7439939 )
3 - Send Everything including Roboson: Roboson, Azzuro
1 - The viking way: RAM
Post by: Roboson on May 01, 2017, 04:30:51 am
I'd happily support it.Frostball:
We inverted a fireball and dragged it our to boring lengths. Instead of creating a cluster of energy the shoots to a target and then loses containment and spills everywhere, it creates a energy concentrator that constantly absorbs everything in its radius as it travels, until it expires, into, surprisingly enough, a fireball. Okay, so the name isn't perfect but it really is the opposite of a fireball, please believe us, the mathemagician that named it is super-pedantic and it will drive me insane otherwise...
Basically a moving implosion that pulls heat and matter towards itself, knocking projectiles off-course and chilling them. Also pulling soldiers towards itself and chilling them. Less range than a fireball, alas, due to the constant effect, but can royally murder a formation's line if it passes through them knocking them all together and leaving them with a nervous chill(a chill that makes them nervous, rather than a chill derived from nervousness, which would be the normal usage of the phrase...) and then exploding in the squad behind them...
It is basically combination frost-tower + fireball, with a support from our knowledge of sucking that we got from antimagic charms.
Why over-complicate it? You could just make highly condensed fireballs that explode when anything gets close. Basically an anti-projectile flak cannon. Flack fire. We definitely don't have the magical know-how to create black-hole balls like this.
Post by: andrea on May 01, 2017, 04:31:34 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 04:32:28 am
Also, we still have the issue of fire.
Post by: Azzuro on May 01, 2017, 04:33:56 am
QuoteOh, and he also requests more of them, too.I don't think the Fog-O-War would be a bad choice, but I would like to emphasize this quote also given by the Theatre Commander. This revision cycle we should be reducing the expense of HC1-E's, and that'll significantly help us at sea. Also, both the Frostball and Ray of Frost designs solve the fire issue mentioned by the Commander, which I believe is the #1 reason we lost at sea.
We can do that in the revision cycle, it's not mutually exclusive with rolling out Fog-O-War. And the frost ideas, while good insofar as they are grounded in already known magics, nonetheless are purely reacting to new Moskurg weapons - their fire shell. Which is shorter-ranged than our HC-1E, but that doesn't matter because they being faster means they dictate the range, not us. If we could stay out of their range with our speed while still firing upon them, we will win. Oh, and we already have fire at sea - our fireballs, but that is completely ineffective because Moskurg ships are staying out of fireball range, which is shorter than their ballistae, once again showing the importance of speed in naval combat.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 04:37:47 am
I actually think the Fog-O-War may be a good idea. I would be worried about risk, but pretty sure that Evicted's post means we wouldn't get risks with the Fog-O-War design.
But then again, this would be yet another turn where Lucky Strike keeps on hurting us. Every turn we delay countering Lucky Strike is another turn they can make new things that benefit from Lucky Strike.
I just want to counter Lucky Strike.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 04:41:50 am
Unlike Moskurgians, we do not have the accuracy to snipe incoming rounds out of the air. So, that won't work.
In addition, a fire extinguisher that ends with an explosion, is a very shitty fire extinguisher
Third, because it is based on fireballs, it does not have the range to hit the enemy, hence it too will be useless in that regard.
So, you made something that is thrice useless.
Post by: Azzuro on May 01, 2017, 04:52:45 am
Also,
pls vote fog-o-war for 939 design phase.
pls pls pls.
Post by: andrea on May 01, 2017, 04:54:46 am
Quote
Designs
2 - Frostball: RAM, Chiefwaffles
1 - Ray of Frost: 10ebbor10
2 - Fog-O-War: Azzuro
1 - Flameblast Gems: Lightforger
1 - Anchored Crystal Canopy: RAM
1 - Frost Pulsar: Roboson
0 - Linked Gems:
0 - HC1-E Mobile:
0 - antiluck charm(RAM)
0 - Anti-Projectile Ammunition
Quote
Trader Actions
0 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree:
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
0 - Give him Everything: Chiefwaffles (Link to full proposal: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7439939#msg7439939 )
3 - Send Everything including Roboson: Roboson, Azzuro
1 - The viking way: RAM
fog o war it is then!
Post by: Roboson on May 01, 2017, 04:56:22 am
Frostball seems like something that would fail spectacularly because of overcomplexity, and more importantly, it does not address any of our issues.
Unlike Moskurgians, we do not have the accuracy to snipe incoming rounds out of the air. So, that won't work.
In addition, a fire extinguisher that ends with an explosion, is a very shitty fire extinguisher
Third, because it is based on fireballs, it does not have the range to hit the enemy, hence it too will be useless in that regard.
So, you made something that is thrice useless.
Not even a little bit constructive. Not cool 10ebbor10, not cool. This is a safe place to pitch ideas. There is no need to be so harsh towards teammembers, especially as often as you are.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 04:59:34 am
I just want to counter Lucky Strike.Just gonna leave that here. This is still my number one want, above the fire issue. The fire bomb issue is amplified by Lucky Strike. So Countering Lucky Strike is in my eyes more important than countering the fire bombs, though countering both at once would be preferable.
The Frostball is primarily meant to be used as a kind of flak spell (though as some have pointed out there are admittedly simpler ways to do flak) in addition to an extinguisher and finally being useful in combat, but combat isn't its main purpose.
How do you extinguish fires with it? Fire it at a slight angle upwards from the ground towards but not at the thing you want to extinguish. The frostball will fly past it, extinguish it, then go on somewhere else and explode.
But for now, I'm going to switch my vote yet again to the Fog-O-War. Regaining control of the sea and offshore artillery would both help a lot. That and doing it now will let us focus on just land for a bit. Again, though, I still want to counter lucky strike more.
Also I still think it should be called the SPB1-A "Fog-O-War". The name is still basically Fog-O-War, but it's easier to type SPB1 (and SPB1-A) and I'm sure this won't be the only boat we ever design. Also, it's an Arstotzkan tradition!
Quote
Designs
1 - Frostball: RAM
1 - Ray of Frost: 10ebbor10
3 - Fog-O-War: Azzuro, Andrea, Chiefwaffles
1 - Flameblast Gems: Lightforger
1 - Anchored Crystal Canopy: RAM
1 - Frost Pulsar: Roboson
0 - Linked Gems:
0 - HC1-E Mobile:
0 - antiluck charm(RAM)
0 - Anti-Projectile Ammunition
Quote
Trader Actions
0 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree:
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
0 - Give him Everything: Chiefwaffles (Link to full proposal: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7439939#msg7439939 )
3 - Send Everything including Roboson: Roboson, Azzuro
1 - The viking way: RAM
Also, idea for future design: Flak Shells. They may only be effective with the higher fire rate of the HC2, though. Magical point defense when?
Post by: Roboson on May 01, 2017, 05:04:59 am
Found it.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 05:09:25 am
Frostball seems like something that would fail spectacularly because of overcomplexity, and more importantly, it does not address any of our issues.
Unlike Moskurgians, we do not have the accuracy to snipe incoming rounds out of the air. So, that won't work.
In addition, a fire extinguisher that ends with an explosion, is a very shitty fire extinguisher
Third, because it is based on fireballs, it does not have the range to hit the enemy, hence it too will be useless in that regard.
So, you made something that is thrice useless.
Not even a little bit constructive. Not cool 10ebbor10, not cool. This is a safe place to pitch ideas. There is no need to be so harsh towards teammembers, especially as often as you are.
It was a frank assessment of the design's capabilities. A fire extinguisher that blows up what you're trying to extinguish can be described in no other words than useless.
That said, :
Quote
1. Don't be salty! If at any time you find yourself having an urge to mouth off at another player, step away from the keyboard, go outside, and take a breath. Seriously. Players who repeatedly get angry or passive aggressive will be asked to leave. If you have an issue with the way the game is being run, DO NOT expect a tantrum to get you what you want.
I have been repeatedly called names, insulted, and other things just because I did not want to agree with the majority opinion, even though in several cases my opinion has later been shown valid. You're more polite about it, but it's getting old, so stop it.
Try to argue about the design, not the man. That is what that rule entails.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 05:11:12 am
Design: Fog-O-WarOR: The SPB1-A "Fog-O-War".
The final refinement of our prototype steam-powered ship is to supply the water intake via a Channelled Fog spell, thus eliminating the problem of salt building up in the pipes and increasing the efficiency as pure water boils at a lower temperature than seawater. Using the freezing spell-powered steam condenser from the HC2, the steam produced is not vented but is reused, thus helping to solve the problem of the drive belt slipping due to wetness. HC1-E steam hybrid cannons provide its firepower, allowing it to shell land and sea targets alike from extreme range. The new ship is thus named the Arstotzkan Fog-O-War, and with its speed and range advantage both, will help us rule the waves in the Western Sea.
And it's known via word of god that thanks to accumulated knowledge mentioned in the design, we won't get a penalty in designing it.
Post by: andrea on May 01, 2017, 05:14:49 am
by the way, we really really need new ammo. I'll start proposing, if you don't mind. although we may prefer to work on expense this turn... but my idea may help with both.
Crystal multipurpose shells a set of shells for our cannons. they are composed of an outer shell and a filling. the filling can be anything from a full shell slightly smaller than the barrel, to several segments of shell, to metal scraps and pebbles, to fluids like fire wasp venom. They don't need to be accurately manufactured , since they are encased in an outer shell, made of crystal. This shell holds everything together and is made form fitting to the cannon easily, thanks to our control of crystals.
Should it encounter enemy antimagic fields, crystal will dissolve spreading its contents over enemy forces. Should it not be dispelled it will impact, breaking the casing and , depending on the filling, still spread shrapnel or fire venom in the immediate area.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 05:16:32 am
Post by: andrea on May 01, 2017, 05:27:32 am
as for protection from lucky charms... if the steam engine is improved and includes the frost spell, I am going to propose a crazy idea next turn.
steam tank. it is a cart, fully covered by thick wood without leaving any openings except a (closeable) window for the muzzle of the cannon. To protect it from moskurg greek fire, the entire shell is covered by frost spells similar to that of the cannon barrel, meaning that it will pull out the heat from the fire as it hits. It will be propelled by a steam engine.
Surprisingly, assuming we get a good roll here it will all be existing tech.
Post by: Roboson on May 01, 2017, 05:30:11 am
Quote1. Don't be salty! If at any time you find yourself having an urge to mouth off at another player, step away from the keyboard, go outside, and take a breath. Seriously. Players who repeatedly get angry or passive aggressive will be asked to leave. If you have an issue with the way the game is being run, DO NOT expect a tantrum to get you what you want.
I have been repeatedly called names, insulted, and other things just because I did not want to agree with the majority opinion, even though in several cases my opinion has later been shown valid. You're more polite about it, but it's getting old, so stop it.
Try to argue about the design, not the man. That is what that rule entails.
I have no issues about critiquing ideas. Really my qualms lie with the way its done. It's not about how ideas differ or don't differ, or who was right or wrong. And it has nothing to do with agreeing with the majority position. It's about the way in which we go about doing those things. Long lists of arguments about how someone's idea is shit is overkill and detract from the game by creating a hostile atmosphere. Its entirely possible to critique an idea in a positive and constructive way. That's all I ask, just a bit less aggression in the critiques. I agree with your critiques, they're valid and reasonable, but the delivery could be nicer. Which I don't think is too much to ask and probably already falls within Rule 1.
Ok, said my peace. That is all for me. Take it to heart or don't.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 05:31:58 am
Our work in anti-magic charms has proven that magic exists around Arstotzkians in the air. Is it not a logical conclusion that wizards, if not everyone, have a magical "signature"? By applying what we've learned about "ambient magic" in our work thus far, we can create a spell allowing our mages to "sense" magical presences both in and out of their line of sights. This can be used to find Moskurgians hiding like cowards or those too far away to see regularly. The spell isn't "sight", but rather just sensing - the casting mage senses others.
This can be used to spot for artillery, to detect Moskurgian ambushes in skirmishes, and more!
Furthermore, as our anti-magic charms absorb local magic as they should, forces covered by anti-magic charms won't be seen under this spell and thus confusing forces with enemies is a rare occurrence. Of course, there are numerous Arstotzkian soldiers not under the effects of anti-magic charms in the battlefield. Which is why casting mages tend to focus on finding the exact locations of enemies where only their rough location is known. If infantry is clashing in a battle, Detect Essence is rarely used. However, in scenarios such as eliminating enemy ballistae and ranged troops, Detect Essence can be a vital tool.
If it's very expensive, users of Detect Essence will be accompanied by couriers and messengers that run the mage's instructions to nearby artillery emplacements. If it's just Expensive, then the mages of every cannon are trained to use it.
Another possible solution for the sight issue if we ever get around to upgrading our cannons' sights further.
@Andrea: The steam tank could work, though I question the use of wooden armor when the enemy is fielding extremely strong ballistae. Why bother fielding a tank if the enemies' weapons will just ignore its armor? We should rather use iron armor if we visit that idea. And regarding expense, we really just need to standardize production, as the problem with the HCx-E variants is that their barrels must be specially crafted for each one. We don't have to resort to dispel-able crystals to get it working.
Post by: andrea on May 01, 2017, 05:37:04 am
about wood, good point. I was thinking about thick enough wood to sustain a few ballista hits, but if that is unfeasible we probably should go metal. We will want the mountains for that however.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 05:37:52 am
Quote
Design: Antimagic Bombs [6, 4, 5]
Though our earlier incidents with exploding anti-magic charms was done with diamonds, it doesn't take much to modify our new quartz charms to also explode. It's even easier to do, in fact, thanks to the lower quality of the material. Once we have the spellwork down it's a simple matter of enchanting quartz crystals cut into the shapes of arrowheads to fashion our first anti-magic arrow.
As an extra bonus, we've managed to specify the crystal to reach peak temperature before shattering violently; the shrapnel does most of the damage to soft, unarmored tissue, but the super-heated crystal shards can start fires if they land in dry grass or soft fabrics.
Hitting a mage with an arrow will likely result in death for the target and minor lacerations for unarmored bystanders. Unfortunately, the relatively low stopping power of a crystal shard means they wont be able to penetrate shields and armor once the arrow head explodes, but we've noted that if it explodes once shot into a wooden shield it will punch a small hole through it. Sustained fire against shielded enemy mages will slowly reduce their cover so long as they cast.
Due to the complexity of crafting anti-magic charms and fashioning them into perfectly weighted arrows, they are Expensive and will be given exclusively to our Mage-Hunter squads.
A minor problem we've noticed; the arrow head doesn't discern between friendly magic and enemy magic. The entire quiver will explode suddenly and violently in the presence of any magic, including our own. As a precaution, our Mage Hunters will be kept as far away from our magical forces as possible. Expensive.
This was supposedly a 6 design too. Haven't seen too much of it, but maybe it could be used now.
Post by: andrea on May 01, 2017, 05:40:06 am
Post by: Azzuro on May 01, 2017, 05:46:32 am
I still don't understand why the arrows didn't have much effect. Even if Moskurg cast their antimagic to prevent the arrows from exploding, their own antimagic should hinder casting of other spells, forcing their mages to shift position.
Post by: Roboson on May 01, 2017, 05:50:14 am
you mean, to make it explode in the air and cause flaming shrapnel? I suppose a continuous low powdered spell could act as a fuse.
Or if we could get them to function like a battery. They store magical energy and can be hooked up to an inscripted spell to activate it. Bam! Magical weapons powered by magical batteries. Getting the timing right would be a bit difficult, but thats going to be an issue no matter the methodology. Bonus: Magic batteries can be applied to create magic guns and explosives in the future. May even be effective in anti-magic zones because it has a self-contained power source.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 06:04:30 am
I still don't understand why the arrows didn't have much effect. Even if Moskurg cast their antimagic to prevent the arrows from exploding, their own antimagic should hinder casting of other spells, forcing their mages to shift position.
Well, we asked this question.
Quote
Did they use other magic from within it?
-You did not see any.
Which is a weird answer, since Moskurg has no visible magic. My guess is that the Moskurgians made their magic not affect their own spells.
Quote
Designs
1 - Frostball: RAM
0 - Ray of Frost:
4 - Fog-O-War: Azzuro, Andrea, Chiefwaffles, 10ebbor10
1 - Flameblast Gems: Lightforger
1 - Anchored Crystal Canopy: RAM
1 - Frost Pulsar: Roboson
0 - Linked Gems:
0 - HC1-E Mobile:
0 - antiluck charm(RAM)
0 - Anti-Projectile Ammunition
Quote
Trader Actions
0 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree:
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
0 - Give him Everything: Chiefwaffles (Link to full proposal: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7439939#msg7439939 )
3 - Send Everything including Roboson: Roboson, Azzuro, 10ebbor10
1 - The viking way: RAM
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 10:00:13 am
Post by: andrea on May 01, 2017, 10:07:58 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 10:11:11 am
Post by: Azzuro on May 01, 2017, 10:20:26 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 10:29:28 am
Post by: andrea on May 01, 2017, 10:40:45 am
Post by: evictedSaint on May 01, 2017, 10:59:37 am
We actually have nothing that's worth selling to a person without magical ability. The wands of fireball and dogwood are out, as they require magic. The crystal axes and lances aren't really permanent. He's already passed over the steam engine. And there's the cannon, but they're not exactly magical where he comes from.
He has some minor magical ability, but cannot use the National Effort Wand of Fireballs you tried to sell him. The steam engine was mundane, and he made it explicitly clear he was interested in magical artifacts. And then you guys sold him a crate of wooden nickels.
GM : What happennedto the Army we send out. Shoukdn't they be back by now?
I'm so sorry, I forgot to write it up in the last battle report. They have returned, having successfully repelled the invaders from the foreigners homelands. You sustained negligable casualties due to having more highly trained and better equipped troops.
Uh.
Evicted, can we do what Roboson's proposing? Please?
Sure, I'll allow that.
HC1-E Mobile
-snip-
Your HC1-E's currently retreat at the same pace Moskurgs front line advances. If they develop faster troops or equipment, this design would be beneficial. At the moment I cannot see any application for this carriage beyond eventually making a tank.
So...
They managed to make a fireweapon that is longer ranged than our fireballs, magic proof, apperently cheaper, seemingly deadlier, stays in place, and all that.
Well, I'll scrap the range, that comes from their ballistae.
I'm going to call upon Rule 2.Quote2. Keep in mind that I am not a historian, so there will sometimes be mistakes and inaccuracies. Even in the best of circumstances, minor inconsistencies are a common occurrence. If some piece of equipment is imbalanced/unrealistic, I might consider changing it if you bring it up once -AND ONLY ONCE- and politely state your argument. However, I will err on the side of consistency with my own game, I do not like to go back and change things. Sometimes it is more important to simply keep the game running smoothly than other concerns
My argument here is simple.
It is inconsistent for a single design roll to be vastly more powerfull than several design rolls made over a long period of time.
To start: By virtue of being magical, magical fire must be better than normal fire. If it isn't (ie, mundane fireweapons are easier to develop than fireballs), then we got heavily disadvantaged when choosing our starting wand. I assume Iituem did not intend that, so to be consistent magical fire must be better than normal fire.
After all, I would not expect a simple designed peptalk to defeat Moskurg's wand of heroism.
Now, the modifiers we got for our fireball wand were significant. We got -1 for Firewand reverse engineering, and -1 for making it stick for an hour. I emphatize that was with a design bonus.
Secondly, the design is ahistorical. The molotov cocktail was invented in the second world war. That is several centuries further away than our steam engine. Sure, alternative fire things existed in history, but those all relied on rare resources Moskurg should not posses.
Third, it's not consistent with our own rolls. When we designed the Design: Antimagic Bombs [6, 4, 5], which were even based on existing tech, we had serious limitations in range, applicability and damage. It was an explosive arrow that needed repeated fire to pierce shields. It started fires, but only very tiny ones. It had shrapnel, but stopped by armor. Our enemy does not share any of those disadvantages for their fire-stuff. In fact, their fire-stuff is completely immune to means of stopping fire.
Therefore, I do not think the design is consistent with either historical interpretations nor game mechanics as applied before now.
First off, thank you for calmly and respectfully bringing this to my attention. I have mulled this over and come to a decision.
To begin with, it is not "a single design roll". It is the culmination of several turns of focused work:
A design to develop ballistas.
A revision to make ballistas stop killing their crews.
A design exploring the concept of alternate ammunition.
A revision for cheaper ballistas and better crews.
A design for fire ammunition.
A revision to make fire ammunition stop killing their crews.
Furthermore, their design isn't based on futuristic molotov cocktails, it's based on Greek Fire - which was invented nearly three centuries ago. It has longer range as a byproduct of their ballista design, but the area of affect is smaller than your fireballs and cannot be spontaneously generated by a mage.
Now, all of that being said, I will concede that their effect is more pronounced than it should be. Namely the splash damage should be dialed back to a meter in range and successfully striking a ballista with the ammo loaded should result in a cook-off. I will make these changes in the next combat phase.
On the subject of respectful conduct, I do not want name-calling, insults, or hostile remarks. You are all on a team, working together to develop your side. Calling someones design "useless" and shutting them down immediately discourages creativity. There's nothing wrong with pointing out flaws with a design, but remember that your remarks don't need to be confrontational to get your point across. If you're going several pages with just the two of you arguing back and forth, realize your debate is going nowhere and agree to disagree. I hope you guys are mature enough to refrain from insulting one another or resorting to name calling, because that would be a stupid reason to have to ban someone. I don't want to type this out again, so please conduct yourself in a manner befitting a professional Arstotzkan Mathemagician.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 11:17:03 am
Quote
I'm so sorry, I forgot to write it up in the last battle report. They have returned, having successfully repelled the invaders from the foreigners homelands. You sustained negligable casualties due to having more highly trained and better equipped troops.
Interesting. So, we know have a bunch of Veteran Cavalry forces standing around being useless.
Given that, we may want to attack the plains with a fast and devastating pillage and burn style assault.
It may work, if we can dramatically outflank the enemy and destroy their artillery. Such a thing would be foolish in the closed mountain and jungles, but in the plains it should work very well.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 11:39:51 am
So that means the trader could actually go to the academy. He may not want to, but he can and that's the first step.
As long as we show him how to handle all the things we give him - especially the crystal weapons - we may be able to get that credit. And also show him how to make more dogwood wands. I'm assuming the academy teaches that too.
I assume the trader will learn how to maintain and operate the stuff we're giving him if he's going to the academy. But we should still play it safe and think of any other magical things to give him in addition to the "give everything" plan
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 11:58:31 am
Post by: andrea on May 01, 2017, 12:03:27 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 12:04:45 pm
Anything else we can just have the accompanying apprentice (separate from Robison) do for him.
And the academy is more-so how to not be awful at magic. I think we're agree on the academy though?
Side note, I'm loving the cultural identity we've created so far. Cannon artillery? (In progress) steam boats? Mathemagics?
It's just awesome.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 12:28:07 pm
Future Design: CS1-I "Terror" Incendiary Shells
Our mathematicians have thought: What if you could easily make fire without magic? After intense sessions of study and design, they've come up with a solution: Incendiary rounds.
The new shell foregoes our usual flaw of a dependence on magic. Simply load the shell into an HCx-E and fire!
As the shell approaches its target, one of two things will happen: The impact will trigger a simplistic ignition mechanism inside the shell and it'll disperse a payload of flaming oil, showing throws filthy Moskurgians how to properly use fire.
Or, if the shell hits an active magic field such as a wizard casting a spell, small crystals based off of the design of the Anti-magic bomb will break up, in doing so igniting the payload. The range of the anti-magic crystals ensures that the shells won't disperse too soon. Once this happens, huge swaths of land will be engulfed by fire coming down from the sky.
Future Revision/Design: CS1-E "Annihilator" Explosive Shells
After finishing the concept for the CS1-I, our mathematicians decided to say "screw it" and make a shell reliant on magic. Consequently, this was a simpler design. What if instead of relying on enemy magic to trigger anti-magic crystals, we trigger it ourselves?
"Charging" the crystals is a simple process easily taught to even apprentices failing in the Academy. The mage travels a regulated amount of energy into the crystal. Once this happens, the crystal becomes unstable and is essentially a ticking time bomb, though impacts reliably trigger the crystal as well.
After the crystal is triggered - either through time or impact - it'll releas a huge explosion dwarfing the Anti-magic bomb. The magical energy in the shell is mathematically optimized to all release at once in this devastating explosion rivaling a fireball.
(CS: Cannon Shell)
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 01, 2017, 12:31:15 pm
HC1-E Mobile
-snip-
Your HC1-E's currently retreat at the same pace Moskurgs front line advances. If they develop faster troops or equipment, this design would be beneficial. At the moment I cannot see any application for this carriage beyond eventually making a tank.
You do not see the advantage of retreating faster then them with the ability to almost instantly fire from the new position when we have superior range, so that we can always be hitting them but they can never hit us?
Post by: Roboson on May 01, 2017, 12:37:12 pm
HC1-E Mobile
-snip-
Your HC1-E's currently retreat at the same pace Moskurgs front line advances. If they develop faster troops or equipment, this design would be beneficial. At the moment I cannot see any application for this carriage beyond eventually making a tank.
You do not see the advantage of retreating faster then them with the ability to almost instantly fire from the new position when we have superior range, so that we can always be hitting them but they can never hit us?
The problem is, they always hit us. It doesn't matter if we're moving or if we're just sitting there or if we're invisible or even if we're almost invincible, they still hit us. They can hit a fly at 800 meters with a ballista because of that starting spell.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 01, 2017, 12:44:51 pm
HC1-E Mobile
-snip-
Your HC1-E's currently retreat at the same pace Moskurgs front line advances. If they develop faster troops or equipment, this design would be beneficial. At the moment I cannot see any application for this carriage beyond eventually making a tank.
You do not see the advantage of retreating faster then them with the ability to almost instantly fire from the new position when we have superior range, so that we can always be hitting them but they can never hit us?
The problem is, they always hit us. It doesn't matter if we're moving or if we're just sitting there or if we're invisible or even if we're almost invincible, they still hit us. They can hit a fly at 800 meters with a ballista because of that starting spell.
That is why we never stay in range. The instant we see them moving up we retreat. Then keep shelling them.
Also we do not know about the bolded part yet, we haven't tried an armored approach. Our personal armor defeats most arrows even with their spell. We also have never hidden our people.
Post by: Andres on May 01, 2017, 12:48:59 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 12:53:56 pm
Also we do not know about the bolded part yet, we haven't tried an armored approach. Our personal armor defeats most arrows even with their spell. We also have never hidden our people.
We absolutely know both.
There are frequent references to arrows going through eyeslits, and we had that Mist for a long time. During the time where it was effective, Moskurgians could perfectly well utilize their spells to snipe people inside the magic mist.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 01, 2017, 12:54:08 pm
Crystal molds for the cannons, crystal hand machining tools (since they are so sharp), hell crystal barrels for the cannons so that we can just re summon them if they break.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 12:58:31 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 01, 2017, 01:01:15 pm
Because, at this point in time, our cannons are already being limited by the amount of mages. Ideally we'd reduce that.
HC1-E : More expensive to produce, deployment is limited.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 01, 2017, 01:02:59 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 01:04:25 pm
Quote
Inexpensive equipment could be given to every soldier, if you want. Cantrips can be cast by every wizard. Expensive equipment can be given to officers, or one per squad (5-10 soldiers). Very Expensive equipment can be used by special squads only, about 1 in 100 soldiers.
Or do we have 300 man armies?
Post by: andrea on May 01, 2017, 01:08:21 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on May 01, 2017, 01:09:00 pm
Edit: Andrea ninja'd me.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 01:10:36 pm
Quote
Northern Taiga: 4/4 Arstotzka
Central Mountains: 3/4 Arstotzka, 1/4 Moskurg
Western Jungle: 2/4 Arstotzka, 2/4 Moskurg
Eastern Plains: 4/4 Moskurg
Southern Desert: 4/4 Moskurg
Western Jungle: 1/4 Arstotzka, 3/4 Moskurg
Western Sea: Disputed
Eastern Sea: Moskurger
Southern Sea: Moskurger
Which of the two numbers is correct?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 01:49:05 pm
Perhaps we should make our Tower of Frost more potent? Right now, Moskurg is getting debuffed because of it, which is fine, but insufficient. We should make our Tower of Frost generate such cold that they would be unable to survive without superior Arstotzkan heat retention techniques. This would counter all their ground efforts as they wouldn't even be able to survive the environment they're trying to fight in. It's also a pre-existing technology and an ultimately simple modification.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Thinking about it, I just realized how good this idea is. Our frost tower is currently operating in the Jungle, the area where it is weakest. If we make it cheaper, we can deploy it in the mountains and Plains, where it will be dramatically more powerful.
The Jungle normally has an an average temperature of 26 degrees, and we turned it into freezing half the time of the year. So, we did about 26 degrees of temp reduction.
Average normal temperature:
Jungle : 26 degrees Celsius
Plains : 13 degrees Celsius
Mountains : 0 degrees Celsius
Average temperature with forever Frost:
Jungle : 0 degrees Celsius
Plains : -13 degrees Celsius
Mountains : -26 degrees Celsius
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 01, 2017, 01:51:13 pm
I think that should be our revision this turn, if we haven't used our revision thus far.
~~~
Also yes, let's teach the merchant to maintain crystal weapons.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 01:52:24 pm
Well, it's not just making it cheaper, it's making it so we don't need Myark for it. That said, I think it's a great idea and doable.
Both are the same. National Effort = Needs to use master wizard.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 01, 2017, 02:38:11 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on May 01, 2017, 02:45:47 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 02:48:19 pm
That's weird. Moskurg has 3/4, Arstotzka 1/4. I just messed up the copy/paste
Are you certain?
We had 3/4 control in 928. They only got 1 part, so we should have 2/4 vs 2/4
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7438622;topicseen#msg7438622
Post by: andrea on May 01, 2017, 02:50:36 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 02:54:23 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on May 01, 2017, 02:57:22 pm
Post by: Light forger on May 01, 2017, 03:17:59 pm
Anti-Magic Spire
A large tower able to nullify almost all magic in a whole section of the map. However, it doesn't affect prestored magic(aka gems and crystals) letting us use our magic with moderate difficulty. As an added befit the towers is able to store a part of the magic it absorbs let us recharge our gems within. It does however require constant maintenance in order to to keep running.
Try using lucky strike now.
Post by: andrea on May 01, 2017, 03:19:44 pm
Post by: Light forger on May 01, 2017, 03:21:01 pm
Post by: Roboson on May 01, 2017, 03:32:03 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 03:38:11 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on May 01, 2017, 04:07:36 pm
The worlds first steamship hits the waves this year. Steam Powered Boat Mark 1-A, AKA the "Fog-O-War" makes use of our existing technology and our finest equipment to realize perhaps the most intimidating contraption to ever hit the seas.
The work that went into this ship almost entirely involved over-hauling the steam engine. A steam recycler was the most ambituous change - the steam engine is now an entirely closed loop, meaning very little water must be added back in (only to make up what escapes through cracks and joints). Because of this we can run the device on freshwater, which has a lower boiling point and doesn't gum up the inner workings with salt. In a pinch the engine can run (less efficiently) on salt water. After our failed attemp to build a magic-powered steam condenser on the HC2 our Mathemagicians have instead opted for a more mundane option. Steam runs through pipes which run down the outside of the hull and into the water. The ocean water cools the pipes, condensing the steam. This system adds more weight and the horsepower is lost as the steam forces the water back up into the boiler, but at least it's not freezing or cracking pipes.
To make up for the relatively low out-put of the steam engines we've opted to load two onto the ship, both of which drive a single paddle located centrally on the rear. Because the load is split between the two of them we can gear it much higher and turn the paddle faster.
Learning from our success with the HC series we've scrapped the external heat source and instead opted for a hybrid PSF and Flamewall spell to provide steady heat directly through the wall of the boiler. Much like before, this requires the attention of the attending apprentice to operate consistently. We've opted for dual rudders to sit on either side of the paddle for some much-needed turning speed as the weight increase makes the cornering sluggish.
Finally, we've affixed an HC1-E to a raised platform on the bow. Due to our abundance of apprentices we can afford to assign two per ship; one to operate the engine and one to fire the cannon.
Due to the incredible weight of the steam engines and cannon the ship sits very low in the water. This provides considerable drag, and choppy waters threaten to flood over the sides when out of port. Salt water is also hard on the steam engines and cannon, so despite proper maintenance rust grows. Finally, the closed-loop system of the steam recycler threatens to cause ruptures in the joints and thinner pipes. It's difficult to regulate the internal pressure of the engine; an emergency valve has been installed to prevent an out-right explosion, but if popped the engine loses all power and must cool down before it can be reset.
Despite all these flaws, it can - barely - match pace with a Moskurg ship once at full steam. It's not as manueverable, but it does currently out-range everything Moskurg has deployed. Due to the very expensive nature of the steam engines, cannons, and ships, the Fog-O-War is a Very Expensive as well, especially without the mines in the mountains to suppliment the high metal cost. We will be able to deploy three in each sea theatre, although decreasing the cost of its components will allow us to outfit more of our fleet with these upgrades. Very [Very] Expensive.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 04:12:30 pm
Wow, that's a mean modifier.
On a side note, does that mean it's more expensive than our common ships but cheaper than a national effort?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 01, 2017, 04:14:18 pm
~~~
And then we can deploy Frost towers in the Mountains as well as in the Jungle. Which is good, because if we can't keep ahold of the Mountains, and hence don't have that metal bonus, we're basically done for.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 04:15:07 pm
Quote
1 Simplified frost tower 10ebbor10
Post by: evictedSaint on May 01, 2017, 04:20:09 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 04:22:07 pm
Well, we should have more, in any case. We have our fleet concentrated while they are spread out.
Post by: RAM on May 01, 2017, 04:37:51 pm
We add a new wing to the magical academy for the purpose of training those not magical enough for military spellcraft and train them in civilian activities. They cannot throw a wall of fire up in front of an enemy charge, but they can meditate for a time then summon a flame to add heat to a smelter or forge. They can't keep a crystal pole intact for a whole day, but they can manage a crystal pole for an hour around-which to forge pipes. At present we are focused on adding them to steam-work production, but hope to expand the program as civil uses for magic become more defined and more of our wizards return from the front after failing to win their place in Valhalla.
Revision: persistent flames.
By working with our knowledge of gem-powered crystal-weapons, we apply the same theory to steam-power. This is really a revision of the old gem-powering technique to apply to more varied spell-work, to operate at a short distance, and to attain some measure of control over the spell rather than just maintaining it. This has the downside that the wizard is not personally observing the magic, so it can go wrong without being noticed, and can be difficult to disable, but it is simple enough to just shatter the gem with a hammer if the boiler is about to explode. The upside is that this allows a single wizard to maintain many steam-devices, and the firewall spell just needs to be periodically topped-up with power in order to persist. A wizard is till required to actually fire the cannons, but there is hope that this can further be revised to add a gem that can be activated by common soldiers.
Quote
0 (RAM)Civil mages:
0 (RAM)Persistent Flames
Post by: Light forger on May 01, 2017, 04:46:24 pm
Through the use of a new field statamagics(which has no real magic yet but, everyone thinks it is magic) we can greatly increase our production of elite cannons with only a modest loss in overall quality. Production is now done through use of a number of charts and guidelines in the weight, size and thickness of each part. This is then checked by the use of a number of new tools like calipers and scales to insure that the cannons are similar enough to each other. Rather then the ammo being fitted to once specific weapon the unified barrel size letting us use only one size of ammo. To further increase the number of cannons we can make a large part of production is done by peasants who are trained how to make and check one specific part of the cannon.
Quote
1-Simplified frost tower 10ebbor10
1-Statamagically Argumented Cannon Production: Lightforger
0-Civil mages:
0-Persistent Flames:
Post by: andrea on May 01, 2017, 04:53:51 pm
I would be careful deploying tower of frost in the mountains, may kill our men as well.
Quote1-Simplified frost tower 10ebbor10
2-Statamagically Argumented Cannon Production: Lightforger, Andrea
0-Civil mages:
0-Persistent Flames:
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 04:55:23 pm
The ideas of a particularly bright mathematician in the academy introduced something we now call an "assembly line". In short, this revolutionary technique greatly increases our efficiency in producing the HCx-E's. Each cannon may still take a long amount of time individually, but the sheer quantity we can make with this method should at least bring the price of the HCx-E's to Expensive.
Ideally this could also be used to make regular HCx's become regular expense, but that is extremely low prirority.
Light forger ninja'd me with basically the same thing but I like my description and spent a lot of time on it.
Quote
1 - Assembly Line Cannons (cheaper HCx-E's): ChiefwafflesActual argument coming later today when I have time.
1 - Statemagically Argumented Cannon Production: Light forger, Andrea
1 - Simplified frost tower: 10ebbor10
Post by: Light forger on May 01, 2017, 04:57:42 pm
Post by: andrea on May 01, 2017, 04:58:19 pm
edit: also, Taricus seems really smug about more dead arstotzkans, in sensei's arms race discord. next turn may be bloody.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 05:01:40 pm
Even more important, they have no counter to frost. For our cannons, they have their ballistae and lucky strike. For cold, they have nothing while we have gambesons, fireballs and Arztotskan endurance.
Quote
edit: also, Taricus seems really smug about more dead arstotzkans, in sensei's arms race discord. next turn may be bloody.
Two options. They did something unexpected, or they improved their ballistae.
If the latter, we will loose the artillery fight, because of Lucky Strike.
As such, our best bet is to prevent the fight entirely, by killing Moskurgians with extreme cold before they can get in range. Remember, our tower has a 50 mile range.
Post by: Light forger on May 01, 2017, 05:04:07 pm
Post by: Andres on May 01, 2017, 05:06:29 pm
Quote
1 - Assembly Line Cannons (cheaper HCx-E's): Chiefwaffles
1 - Statemagically Argumented Cannon Production: Light forger, Andrea
1 - Simplified frost tower: 10ebbor10
1 - Amplified Frost Tower: Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 05:09:02 pm
Our elite cannons outrange them by a fair bit. You can't use lucky strike if your projectiles outright can't hit the target due to range. Also it's what our mountain commander wanted and I want to get the mountains fully back in our hands as soon as possible so we can have cheaper steam ships.
Frost tower should kill the Moskurgians just as well if not better.
Besides, the Moskurgians expect us to upgrade our artillery. Upgrading frost towers will be entirely unexpected.
Post by: andrea on May 01, 2017, 05:10:28 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 05:10:46 pm
Unless you get GM confirmation that it'll have no bonus, I assume it will have one. On the plains, Moskurg has naval superiority, something which will frustrate us to no end, so it'll be even harder than in the Jungle.
I do want to attack the plains though, to take the enemy bonus away temporally.
Post by: Andres on May 01, 2017, 05:15:57 pm
More powerfull Frost tower is a bad idea as long as it's nat effort. We want recapture the mountains, hence more, not better towers are needed.Yeah, I suppose the mountains are cold enough that even our current frost tower will kill them.
Quote
1 - Assembly Line Cannons (cheaper HCx-E's): Chiefwaffles
1 - Statemagically Argumented Cannon Production: Light forger, Andrea
2 - Simplified frost tower: 10ebbor10, Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: andrea on May 01, 2017, 05:30:39 pm
Quote
1 - Assembly Line Cannons (cheaper HCx-E's): Chiefwaffles
1 - Statemagically Argumented Cannon Production: Light forger
3 - Simplified frost tower: 10ebbor10, Andres, Andrea
Changing vote. lets see what the weather brings.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 05:32:43 pm
And Evicted, can the SBP1-A's provide artillery support on the shore? Is it default or do we need to explicitly order them to? Also, if we lower the HC1-E's expense, can we fit >1 on them on Fog-O-Wars (and older boats) and/or will that allow us to field more SBP1-A's this upcoming combat phase?
Regarding the plains, I definitely think we should attack it. Force them to divide their attention, remove their bonus, and more. We just need enough a force to hold at least 1 section of it.
Quote
Orders
1 - Attack plains w/ primarily cavalry
Revisions
1 - Assembly Line Cannons (cheaper HCx-E's): Chiefwaffles
1 - Statemagically Argumented Cannon Production: Light forger
3 - Simplified frost tower: 10ebbor10, Andres, Andrea
Future designs & revisions: (Descriptions are a bit simplified - if we actually submit them we can think of better descriptions then)
Revision: SE1-L "Unyielding"
The Steam Engine 1 - Light "Unyielding" is a basic improvement over the current steam engine. More efficient use of lighter metals allow for us to keep the rest of the design the same while drastically improving its weight, and to a lesser degree, size. In addition to being a step towards further miniaturization for the steam engine, this provides a huge improvement for the Fog-O-War.
Fog-O-Wars would be equipped with these new engines as part of the revision, and hopefully could either improve maneuverability and/or fit more cannons.
Design: SE2 "Loadbearer"
The SE2 is simply a suite of improvements over the current steam engine. It's lighter, cheaper, and more powerful. It doesn't innovate in any groundbreaking areas, but instead it works. Only one of these would need to be fitted onto a SBP1-A and would allow for greatly increased power at a much lower weight, meaning the SBP1-A's speed is increased, its maneuverability is increased, and if needed other things can now be added to the SBP1-A such as more cannons.
Design: SBP2-A "[Name TBD]"
Self-explanatory. Maneuverability, more cannons, speed, etc.
Personally I think the SE2/SE1-L would be better options to fix our problems with the SBP1-A over this for the time being.
EDIT: Oh yeah.
Please.
Please.
We need to set aside all other things and counter Lucky Strike. It is the source of our problems. I don't even think stop-gap measures like Crystal Canopy would work - we need an actual design countering Lucky Strike. We should even use our revision on it too. Their ballistae are so accurate because of lucky strike. The firebombs are affecting us the way they are because of lucky strike. Their archers are still effective because of Lucky Strike. And think of it - they've been relying this whole time on Lucky Strike like a crutch. If we suddenly knock it out we should gain a significant advantage and cripple them for a bit in the process.
We NEED to counter Lucky Strike.
Post by: Roboson on May 01, 2017, 05:40:11 pm
So instead, here is my totally out-there proposition to bug the enemy mages.
Revision: Antimagic Wasps
Using our knowledge of antimagic, wasp summoning, and splicing magic (Which we need to pursue someday. Enhanced animal senses to dodge luckystrike arrows anyone?), we manage to create a species of wasps that are immune to magic. The trick is that they have tiny anti-magic crystal dust (the good kind we use in our charms, not the explosive kind) in their venom instead of normal or fire venom. This makes each wasp highly resistant to magic. Furthermore, their sting injects the antimagic venom into the enemy. This, depending on the dosage, mildly impedes the ability to cast spells and diminishes the effects of lucky strike and other enchantments on the sting victim.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 05:42:41 pm
I'll also remove my Assembly Line thing because it is a duplicate of Light forger's. Stupid ninjas. I am also assuming that Roboson is voting for it as well. Please fix it if I'm wrong.
Quote
Orders
1 - Attack plains w/ primarily cavalry: Chiefwaffles
Revisions
2 - Antimagic Wasps: Roboson, Chiefwaffles
1 - Statemagically Argumented Cannon Production: Light forger
3 - Simplified frost tower: 10ebbor10, Andres, Andrea
EDIT: Another idea for after Lucky Strike is countered:
Design: HC3
The HC2 was a failed design. There's no use salvaging it. Instead, let's look to the future with the HC3. It incorporates all the improvements of the HC2, the lessons of the SBP1-A, and the advantages of the HCx-E into one convenient package.
Compared to our HC1-E, it's much more reliable, has a higher rate of fire, is Expensive, is accurate, and has Extreme-range.
Though all the HC3 stuff so far is very simple - all this stuff is stuff we've done before, just basically in one package and re-rolling but with advantages. I'd say we should include some further improvements before submitting the HC3 if we ever do this.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 01, 2017, 05:45:33 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 01, 2017, 05:47:08 pm
~~~
We have lots of expensive stuff. Now let's get some cheap stuff. Or get some expensive stuff that covers huge areas like our Frost Tower. Well, after we counter lucky strike.
Hm.
Future(the only stuff for this year is in the quote box) design ideas:
Crystal Lenses: Using crystal, we can eliminate the threat of being shot in the eye. Probably better ideas than this, though.
Antimagic Shells: This crystal shell, once it gets to above the enemy, explodes into a bunch of magic-absorbing crystals which will promptly be scattered around the Moskurgians, preventing them from using magic, most notably their bloody luck spell. Won't protect them from much of our magic, too. Given our main attack spell which is a fireball that can't be cast in an anti-magic field but passes through it fine... yeah. Bonus if the absorbed magic eventually turns into explosions. This is a much better idea.
~~~
Ninja:
Won't the anti-magic wasps be blown away by the wind Moskurg summons?That too. Though the wasps might absorb the wind magic.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 05:50:18 pm
Actually, I have an idea for a new antimagic shell type similar to what Fallacy briefly described. I would write it up, but I won't be able to use my computer for a bit so it'd take a while. Evicted, mind at all not doing the revise update for ~3-4 hours? If you weren't already planning that, great. Otherwise, it's still not a huge deal since it's just one revision submission.
Post by: RAM on May 01, 2017, 05:55:22 pm
Quote
Revisions
2 - Antimagic Wasps: Roboson, Chiefwaffles
1 - Statemagically Argumented Cannon Production: Light forger
4 - Simplified frost tower: 10ebbor10, Andres, Andrea, RAM
0-Civil mages:
0-Persistent Flames:
Can we please not remove suggestions? I know someone proposed the silliness of not adding suggestions which lack votes, but I don't really need to point out the problems with that do I? I voluntarily limited myself to just the two proposals. If you really want to fix the voting than we could implement a preferential system, but I can't see everyone going along with that...
If the jungle is dead(We did lower the frost-tower's power, but I guess the artillery made up the difference...) then it should be colder. Jungles are warm at least in part because of there being a jungle. I wouldn't have a clue as to the specifics, but I wouldn't be surprised at a 10 degree drop and would believe a 20 degree(celcius) drop if it happened...
I do not think that an assembly line would work. We do not have the equipment to have low-skilled operators. Steam could do it but that would be very technical. We could do an assembly line with skilled labour, but that would reduce their morale. There is only so long that you can spend adding the same bend to an endless series of pipes and stay sane... Also, there may be issues with material transference between operators.
I kind of thought that our frost tower was already below national effort...
I actually really like the standardised construction proposal, but I think that we could do the same thing with summoned crystals, assuming that the magic works consistently each time it should produce very similar results, along with faster production due to the easier production and removal of moulds...
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 01, 2017, 06:06:46 pm
In order to reduce complexity and figure out what just this next revision will be, why doesn't everyone propose just one thing and vote once?~~~
If the jungle is dead(We did lower the frost-tower's power, but I guess the artillery made up the difference...) then it should be colder. Jungles are warm at least in part because of there being a jungle. I wouldn't have a clue as to the specifics, but I wouldn't be surprised at a 10 degree drop and would believe a 20 degree(celcius) drop if it happened...How would a jungle make things hotter? I'm not seeing it. It's more the climate of the area...
I do not think that an assembly line would work. We do not have the equipment to have low-skilled operators. Steam could do it but that would be very technical. We could do an assembly line with skilled labour, but that would reduce their morale. There is only so long that you can spend adding the same bend to an endless series of pipes and stay sane... Also, there may be issues with material transference between operators.Agreed. Now, a magical assembly line... as in, an automated one... hm. Automation. Can we do that? Create magical factories?
I kind of thought that our frost tower was already below national effort...Sadly, we can't use more than one of it(plus we need Myark to operate it), so it's a national effort. On the plus side, dropping the cost of it will free up Myark to fight on the front lines(or the back lines), which is good.
I actually really like the standardised construction proposal, but I think that we could do the same thing with summoned crystals, assuming that the magic works consistently each time it should produce very similar results, along with faster production due to the easier production and removal of moulds...A magical factory thing, like a conveyor belt that applies a certain construction spell whenever something passes over it... hm.
~~~
This may be a stupid idea, but can we learn how to conjure uranium?
Post by: evictedSaint on May 01, 2017, 06:09:23 pm
Quote
Evicted, can the SBP1-A's provide artillery support on the shore? Is it default or do we need to explicitly order them to? Also, if we lower the HC1-E's expense, can we fit >1 on them on Fog-O-Wars (and older boats) and/or will that allow us to field more SBP1-A's this upcoming combat phase?
The same with landing behind the enemy; you must hold the ocean before you can use it for troop deployment or artillery bombardment.
Your SPB's are already loaded beyond the recommended weight limit. Another cannon and the boat will be unable to displace enough water to float - an overhaul of the ship's design is required.
As for your regular boats, lowering the expense would allow you to load more cannons aboard - not many, but a few.
As for the jungle, most of the undergrowth that hasn't been attended to by your Dogwoods has died out, resulting in clearer ground. Your brambles and vines and thornbushes are enough to make their formation bonus about half of what it could be. The useful wood is in the giant trees that tower over everyone and everything else; these trees still exist, although they're not looking too great.
Quote
Automation.Automagicion.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 01, 2017, 06:19:18 pm
We don't need to make the whole ship out of crystal, just the metal parts. We could eventually plate the thing with crystal shield armor before battle.
Post by: Roboson on May 01, 2017, 06:20:50 pm
Won't the anti-magic wasps be blown away by the wind Moskurg summons?
Nope, they're filled with antimagic charms making them resistant to the wind magic.
Post by: Azzuro on May 01, 2017, 06:22:40 pm
Quote
Orders
1 - Attack plains w/ primarily cavalry: Chiefwaffles
Revisions
2 - Antimagic Wasps: Roboson, Chiefwaffles
2 - Statemagically Argumented Cannon Production: Light forger, Azzuro
4 - Simplified frost tower: 10ebbor10, Andres, Andrea, RAM
0-Civil mages:
0-Persistent Flames:
Voting for the option which gives us cheaper HC1-Es. Change my vote to any option which gives us that if needed.
Post by: Roboson on May 01, 2017, 06:34:04 pm
Post by: Azzuro on May 01, 2017, 06:37:37 pm
Post by: RAM on May 01, 2017, 06:40:06 pm
Am I misunderstanding something, because I interpret that statement as applying to just the previous revision, and not this one. It also has problems if people vote for their own proposals, which I would explain but then I would need to bring out examples and iterations and all sorts of stuff to basically explain that voting for your own proposals usually makes your vote not matter. it is fine for a one-off where things are getting messy, but long term there are much better ways.In order to reduce complexity and figure out what just this next revision will be, why doesn't everyone propose just one thing and vote once?~~~
It is a thing. Trees can trap heat, they can also store heat, and most importantly, they provide a biological hosting and have their own metabolic processes that all produce heat. It is a big deal. Or, in brief, for the same reason that a jumper makes you warm even though it doesn't produce heat.If the jungle is dead(We did lower the frost-tower's power, but I guess the artillery made up the difference...) then it should be colder. Jungles are warm at least in part because of there being a jungle. I wouldn't have a clue as to the specifics, but I wouldn't be surprised at a 10 degree drop and would believe a 20 degree(celcius) drop if it happened...How would a jungle make things hotter? I'm not seeing it. It's more the climate of the area...
I don't think that we have a basis in telekinesis but, ehh, I suppose we could conjure a custom animal? We already made fictional wasps with fire poison, so I guess a fictional conveyor-sloth, punch-crab, and anvidillo could happen...I do not think that an assembly line would work. We do not have the equipment to have low-skilled operators. Steam could do it but that would be very technical. We could do an assembly line with skilled labour, but that would reduce their morale. There is only so long that you can spend adding the same bend to an endless series of pipes and stay sane... Also, there may be issues with material transference between operators.Agreed. Now, a magical assembly line... as in, an automated one... hm. Automation. Can we do that? Create magical factories?
Verily, I just thought that our previous revision to it dropped it to a pretty low standard and could probably put it in all fields, guess I was wrong, ugh, I should just look it up...I kind of thought that our frost tower was already below national effort...Sadly, we can't use more than one of it(plus we need Myark to operate it), so it's a national effort. On the plus side, dropping the cost of it will free up Myark to fight on the front lines(or the back lines), which is good.
National Effort.Yep, my bad, it sounded easier but I skimmed too much. We need to get a tower on our flagship so this'll be good...
I, umm, how would we even know about uranium? But I see no pressing reason that conjuring a critical mass of enriched-uranium would not be possible, although whether anyone would live to pass on the knowledge of how to do so...I actually really like the standardised construction proposal, but I think that we could do the same thing with summoned crystals, assuming that the magic works consistently each time it should produce very similar results, along with faster production due to the easier production and removal of moulds...A magical factory thing, like a conveyor belt that applies a certain construction spell whenever something passes over it... hm.
~~~
This may be a stupid idea, but can we learn how to conjure uranium?
On that note, I haven't noticed Alms-You-Tricker lately, you think they have a national effort brewing? Maybe there is more to our recent bad rolls than we initially thought...
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 01, 2017, 08:14:53 pm
Ice Age Tower - plunge the entire continent into an ice age. Or worse.
Bio dome - plant growth and heat in a crystal dome.
Destroy everything with us left over.
Post by: Roboson on May 01, 2017, 08:46:59 pm
EDIT: Not sure if anyone caught on, but Myark is a captain America rip off lol.
Post by: Light forger on May 01, 2017, 08:52:16 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 09:00:19 pm
Simply put, the CO1-AM is more so of a revision of both the anti-magic bomb and the standard HCx shell. It can be used with any current cannon, from the HC1 to the HC2-E (if someone feels like losing that day). Mathemagicians have reviewed the poorly thought-out plans for the archaic anti-magic bomb; a fossil of a more primitive non-cannon way of fighting.
However, before the paperwork was to be burned as is standard for mediocre designs, the lead Mathemagician in the room came up with an idea: To adapt the anti-magic bomb to standard shell regulations and make it useful. The mathemagicians got to work!
After a few days, a preliminary design was laid out:
The center of the shell is hollowed out and filled with a crystal very similar to the anti-magic bomb. However, this crystal is intentionally made more stable and somewhere between a cross between the already-known anti-magic charm and the anti-magic bomb. Upon absorbing a large amount of magical energy once entering the vicinity of a filthy Moskurgian mage, the crystal and the shell will explode, raining crystal shrapnel across the area and hopefully causing some amount of damage. But the damage isn't the point here. The crystal, while unstable enough to explode in its "complete" form, separates into uncountable more stable shards. These shards will disrupt and absorb magic in the vicinity. Individually, one shard isn't going to do much and expires after some period of time unlike the anti-magic charm, but the combined shards coming from the explosion of a shell will carpet an area and make it unusable for those smelly Moskurgians to use Lucky Strike or other cowardly spells.
Cannon Ordinance - Anti-Magic "Equalizer"
There. A working anti-magic bomb that utilizes the extreme-range and accuracy of our cannons and counters any enemy spell in the affected areas, including lucky strike.
"How is it a revision?", you may ask. The answer is simple: Ultimately, this is a revision of the shell and the anti-magic bomb. It's just making anti-magic bombs into shell form from arrow form and having them leave still-active anti-magic shards.
Quote
Orders
1 - Attack plains w/ primarily cavalry: Chiefwaffles
Revisions
1 - CO1-AM "Equalizer": Chiefwaffles
1 - Antimagic Wasps: Roboson
2 - Statemagically Argumented Cannon Production: Light forger, Azzuro
4 - Simplified frost tower: 10ebbor10, Andres, Andrea, RAM
0-Civil mages:
0-Persistent Flames:
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 01, 2017, 09:30:07 pm
Quote
OrdersAre we allowed to vote for our own proposals?
1 - Attack plains w/ primarily cavalry: Chiefwaffles
Revisions
1? - CO1-AM "Equalizer": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
1 - Antimagic Wasps: Roboson
2 - Statemagically Argumented Cannon Production: Light forger, Azzuro
4 - Simplified frost tower: 10ebbor10, Andres, Andrea, RAM
0-Civil mages:
0-Persistent Flames:
Post by: RAM on May 01, 2017, 09:38:34 pm
Quote
Orders
1 - Attack plains w/ primarily cavalry: Chiefwaffles
1 - Attack Eastern Sea: RAM
Revisions
3 - CO1-AM "Equalizer": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, RAM
1 - Antimagic Wasps: Roboson
2 - Statemagically Argumented Cannon Production: Light forger, Azzuro
3 - Simplified frost tower: 10ebbor10, Andres, Andrea
0-Civil mages:
0-Persistent Flames:
There is nothing in the rules about voting for your own suggestions, but it is extremely poor form given our current voting scheme.
...
Am I really going to have to pull out the charts and diagrams?
That said, voting for your own orders is not much of an issue because there is not a limited supply of them.
I really want cheaper frost towers to open up other fronts and to free up Myark, for possible additional uses, a flagship for example...
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 01, 2017, 09:51:42 pm
Quote
Orders
1 - Attack plains w/ primarily cavalry: Chiefwaffles
1 - Attack Eastern Sea: RAM
Revisions
3 - CO1-AM "Equalizer": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, RAM
1 - Antimagic Wasps: Roboson
2 - Statemagically Argumented Cannon Production: Light forger, Azzuro
4 - Simplified frost tower: 10ebbor10, Andres, Andrea, voidslayer
0-Civil mages:
0-Persistent Flames:
Simplified frost tower We should have revised the cannons completely in the design phase or made defenses but we made a crappy boat instead.
Also not voting for your own designs was something someone said they did. It has never been an issue before for people voting their own thing.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 01, 2017, 10:02:44 pm
Rather than have one big tower that requires constant maintainance by our Grand Master Wizard and can only be deployed in one theatre at a time, we've instead divided up the spell complexity between several smaller towers. These smaller towers individually handle a portion of the temperature control, and each one can lower the temperature in an area by a few degrees. The towers are not quite as tall, but by dividing them up we can scatter them across our front lines to act as bastions of defense. If one tower falls then the spell is only weakened, not broken. Each spell requires the constant attention from several trained wizards, but they do not need Grand Master status to control the magic within the spell circles. Very Expensive.
Please compile your decision for the trader for this year.
Post by: Roboson on May 01, 2017, 10:04:00 pm
Revision: CO1-AM "Equalizer"
Simply put, the CO1-AM is more so of a revision of both the anti-magic bomb and the standard HCx shell. It can be used with any current cannon, from the HC1 to the HC2-E (if someone feels like losing that day). Mathemagicians have reviewed the poorly thought-out plans for the archaic anti-magic bomb; a fossil of a more primitive non-cannon way of fighting.
However, before the paperwork was to be burned as is standard for mediocre designs, the lead Mathemagician in the room came up with an idea: To adapt the anti-magic bomb to standard shell regulations and make it useful. The mathemagicians got to work!
After a few days, a preliminary design was laid out:
The center of the shell is hollowed out and filled with a crystal very similar to the anti-magic bomb. However, this crystal is intentionally made more stable and somewhere between a cross between the already-known anti-magic charm and the anti-magic bomb. Upon absorbing a large amount of magical energy once entering the vicinity of a filthy Moskurgian mage, the crystal and the shell will explode, raining crystal shrapnel across the area and hopefully causing some amount of damage. But the damage isn't the point here. The crystal, while unstable enough to explode in its "complete" form, separates into uncountable more stable shards. These shards will disrupt and absorb magic in the vicinity. Individually, one shard isn't going to do much and expires after some period of time unlike the anti-magic charm, but the combined shards coming from the explosion of a shell will carpet an area and make it unusable for those smelly Moskurgians to use Lucky Strike or other cowardly spells.
Cannon Ordinance - Anti-Magic "Equalizer"
There. A working anti-magic bomb that utilizes the extreme-range and accuracy of our cannons and counters any enemy spell in the affected areas, including lucky strike.
"How is it a revision?", you may ask. The answer is simple: Ultimately, this is a revision of the shell and the anti-magic bomb. It's just making anti-magic bombs into shell form from arrow form and having them leave still-active anti-magic shards.
It could basically just be a revision to shells to allow us to put things in them. But if we're gonna do something like that, we should do:
Frost Shot
The shells of this rifled ammunition have the flash-freeze version of the Tower of Frost spell (used in the failed MK2 design) inscribed on the inside of the shell. This causes the interior or of the shell to build up immense frost magic, which is released when the structure of the ammo is compromised (ie, when it lands). This releases built up ice magic in a frosty explosion, instantly freezing anything and anyone within a few meters.
Quote
Orders
2 - Attack plains w/ primarily cavalry: Chiefwaffles, Roboson
2 - Attack Eastern Sea: RAM, Roboson
Revisions
1 - Frost Shot: Roboson
3 - CO1-AM "Equalizer": Chiefwaffles, RallacyofUrist, RAM,
0 - Antimagic Wasps: (*sigh*)
2 - Statemagically Argumented Cannon Production: Light forger, Azzuro
4 - Simplified frost tower: 10ebbor10, Andres, Andrea, Voidslayer
0-Civil mages:
0-Persistent Flames:
I think frost shot works as a great comprimise between the Equalizer and the Simplified Tower of Frost. It will likely give us better knoewledge of the frost spell and it will allow us to make hollow shells to be filled with all sorts of nasty things later.
Ninja's by the GM.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 10:11:24 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 01, 2017, 10:21:55 pm
Quote
Orders
2 - Attack plains w/ primarily cavalry: Chiefwaffles, Roboson
2 - Attack Eastern Sea: RAM, Roboson
Trader
1 - Give him more axes, but teach him how to maintain them. FallacyofUrist
Post by: Roboson on May 01, 2017, 10:29:10 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 10:31:34 pm
Roboson's "Send everything including Roboson" proposal. His proposal also includes the "Give him everything" proposal, below. (And Evicted said that yes, this is allowed.)
I'd like to personally offer to lead a diplomatic mission to the trader's nation. I, Roboson the R&D wizard along with a few apprentices, will go to his land to show his people the ways of our magic. I do so to apologize for that bit of Arstozkan humor (foreigners just don't get our jokes), to start a sister mage academy this far away land, and to set up a trade agreement with his nation. This of course will be highly lucrative for him as he'd be the main recipient of the profits from selling magical devices and whatever else we trade to him.
Of course that means I'd have to sit out on the game for a bit, but I'm fine with that. A sidequest sounds quite interesting if its allowed.
The "Give him everything" proposal. Also included in Roboson's above proposal.
If we're showering the Trader with gifts, I think we should go the entire way.
Offer the Trader:
- An education in the AAAA, if he has even the slightest bit of magical talent
- A Dogwood wand and tree
- An Artotzkan apprentince/diplomatic delegation
- Crystal weapons created on demand
- A magical icecube creator, akso known as the barrel of a Mk2
- A magucal Sauna, also known as tge boiler of a Mark 2
- An Anti-magic charm, to protect him from evil magic
All that for the expense credit in his holds.
Quote
Trader Actions@Roboson: Yeah, it's frustrating getting everyone to agree on one thing. I'm still extraordinarily confused why we did simple frost towers instead of cheaper cannons or the anti-magic shot which could have seriously helped.
0 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree:
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
0 - Give him Everything:
4 - Send Everything including Roboson: Roboson, Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles
1 - The viking way: RAM
EDOT: So unless anyone is spontaneously changing their vote, then we already have a consensus.
Post by: RAM on May 01, 2017, 10:34:44 pm
Spoiler: diatribe on voting practices (click to show/hide)
Please remember to deploy frost towers at sea! We can use them to freeze over our ports so that they can only be accessed from semi-disposable jetties.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on May 01, 2017, 10:37:36 pm
I'll just further reinforce that vote, also the issue i've seen is everyone whats to create WunderWaffen like steamships 1000 years ahead of schedule instead of simple things like crystal canopies or cheaper artillery.QuoteTrader Actions@Roboson: Yeah, it's frustrating getting everyone to agree on one thing. I'm still extraordinarily confused why we did simple frost towers instead of cheaper cannons or the anti-magic shot which could have seriously helped.
0 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree:
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
0 - Give him Everything:
5 - Send Everything including Roboson: Roboson, Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles, Stabby
1 - The viking way: RAM
EDOT: So unless anyone is spontaneously changing their vote, then we already have a consensus.
Also RAM I'll agree with you their but the issue is how many ties would we get? I mean we could test it next turn and see how it turns out, cause the current system does suck ass.
Post by: RAM on May 01, 2017, 10:40:46 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 10:41:16 pm
Order: Deploy frost towers at sea.
Evicted, I'm assuming the above order won't get penalties and that with the new Very Expensive towers we can deploy them in multiple theaters without penalty?
Quote
Trader Actions
0 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree:
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
0 - Give him Everything:
5 - Send Everything including Roboson: Roboson, Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles, Stabby
1 - The viking way: RAM
Orders
2 - Attack plains w/ primarily cavalry: Chiefwaffles, Roboson
2 - Attack Eastern Sea: RAM, Roboson
1 - Deploy frost towers at sea: Chiefwaffles
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 01, 2017, 10:48:07 pm
He can sell it to the enemy then they can reforest the swamp with it.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 10:49:41 pm
And the dogwood wands are pretty much our #1 "simple magic" item. Also, we have lots of fire and more knowledge on the dogwood wands than them. If they get the wands, it won't be a problem.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 01, 2017, 10:53:52 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 11:04:51 pm
Post by: Roboson on May 01, 2017, 11:13:24 pm
Would deploying them along the coastline be rolled at a disadvantage? I know it won't be as useful as deploying at sea (which is definitely quite a difficult task now that I think of it), but ideally they'd provide some benefit without rolling at a disadvantage.
Why not just do both :P
Quote
Trader Actions[/quote]
0 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree:
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
0 - Give him Everything:
5 - Send Everything including Roboson: Roboson, Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles, Stabby
1 - The viking way: RAM
Orders
2 - Attack plains w/ primarily cavalry: Chiefwaffles, Roboson
2 - Attack Eastern Sea: RAM, Roboson
1 - Deploy frost towers at sea: Chiefwaffles
1- Deploy Forever Frost along coast AND at sea: Roboson
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 01, 2017, 11:14:53 pm
EDIT: Forgot to withdraw my vote for sea deployment:
Quote
Trader Actions
0 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree:
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
0 - Give him Everything:
5 - Send Everything including Roboson: Roboson, Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles, Stabby
1 - The viking way: RAM
Orders
2 - Attack plains w/ primarily cavalry: Chiefwaffles, Roboson
2 - Attack Eastern Sea: RAM, Roboson
0 - Deploy frost towers at sea:
1- Deploy Forever Frost along coast AND at sea: Roboson
Post by: Roboson on May 01, 2017, 11:33:22 pm
Primarily because rolling a 1 on orders actively hurts us
EDIT: Forgot to withdraw my vote for sea deployment:QuoteTrader Actions
0 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree:
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
0 - Give him Everything:
5 - Send Everything including Roboson: Roboson, Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles, Stabby
1 - The viking way: RAM
Orders
2 - Attack plains w/ primarily cavalry: Chiefwaffles, Roboson
2 - Attack Eastern Sea: RAM, Roboson
0 - Deploy frost towers at sea:
1- Deploy Forever Frost along coastAND at seaif no penalty: Roboson
Post by: Andres on May 01, 2017, 11:50:27 pm
Order: Send everything and seize his goods if he keeps bitching.
Quote
Trader ActionsIf we're going to have bad relations with him anyway, might as well get an Expense Credit out of it instead of having to pay a Revision phase.
0 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree:
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
0 - Give him Everything:
5 - Send Everything including Roboson: Roboson, Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles, Stabby
1 - The viking way: RAM
1 - Send Everything including Roboson and contingency: Andres
Orders
2 - Attack plains w/ primarily cavalry: Chiefwaffles, Roboson
2 - Attack Eastern Sea: RAM, Roboson
0 - Deploy frost towers at sea:
1- Deploy Forever Frost along coast AND at sea if no penalty: Roboson
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on May 02, 2017, 12:05:40 am
Post by: Roboson on May 02, 2017, 12:53:14 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 02, 2017, 02:25:17 am
Spoiler: diatribe on voting practices (click to show/hide)
Quote
With just that little change we suddenly have a situation in which the votes of suggesters become relevant to the outcome! It is a better system, although is usually only relevant with smalle numbers of voters.
You made a few mistakes.
You assume that everyone thinks their own design is the best, but then assume that they would vote for another design that is not their own. If, by the rules, you are not allowed for your own design the logical act of the self-centered inventor would be to not vote at all. Any other act will in fact disadvantage their own design.
I propose another, simpler solution. Do not restrict votes to 1 per person.
Post by: RAM on May 02, 2017, 03:12:48 am
If people can just vote for everything then you will tend to get the situation of everyone generally voting for everything that they think will sort-of work and you get basically everyone voting for all of the basically good designs, which is the most tied-vote pit you will ever see, except that it is massively open to exploitation of people just waiting till the last moment to tip the four-way tie with a single vote... It can work if you have some sort of unequal vote system so that people still need to distinguish one vote from another, but just opening the floodgates to vote spam? I just cannot see it ever ending well...
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 02, 2017, 03:39:19 am
Another thing that your voting proposal does is that it will reinforce the bias in favor of Early proposers.
After all, the first proposal can be voted on by the second proposer, but not necessarily the other way around.$
Edit : Almost forgot. Your analysis does not account for the fact that each person may propose 2 proposals.
Post by: Roboson on May 02, 2017, 04:13:28 am
Furthermore, our system is fine. We don't need to impose rules to limit the voting process. Yes, some people will vote for their stuff (because they think it's what we need or that it's a cool idea (Which it probably is)) and there's no real reason to ban that. Especially if they went through a lot of word to field the design. And a multi vote system seems to me to just over complicate the process in the worst ways and simplify it in bad ways as well. Right now we have lots of ideas going around, good compromise and a certain level of strategy in casting votes. Not only does this work well, but it's also quite fun and adds a strategy dynamic to the game. There's no need to fix what's not broken.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 02, 2017, 04:36:45 am
Simplified Frost Tower: We've simplified the Tower of Forever Frost while still keeping its potency and scale. Now we don't need Myark to operate it. However, it's still likely very expensive(not that that matters, we only need one per theatre).
Revision: Minor Towers of Frost [4]
Rather than have one big tower that requires constant maintainance by our Grand Master Wizard and can only be deployed in one theatre at a time, we've instead divided up the spell complexity between several smaller towers. These smaller towers individually handle a portion of the temperature control, and each one can lower the temperature in an area by a few degrees. The towers are not quite as tall, but by dividing them up we can scatter them across our front lines to act as bastions of defense. If one tower falls then the spell is only weakened, not broken. Each spell requires the constant attention from several trained wizards, but they do not need Grand Master status to control the magic within the spell circles. Very Expensive.
Please compile your decision for the trader for this year.
Our engineers are taking very big, seemingly random liberties with our proposals.
The design explicitly asks for a single tower, instead, we get several. The design asks for the same potency, instead we get something much weaker, but spread out. The design asks for the same scale, instead we get a design that must be placed among the front lines.
This is not without consequences, especially because of this line :
Quote
we can scatter them across our front lines to act as bastions of defense.
The entire point of revising the frost tower revision was to render the enemy artillery a non-factor by deploying a powerful destructive asset beyond their reach, forcing them to create alternative solutions and allowing us to catch up, instead of this stagnating race for better artillery that we're doomed to lose because of the enemies head start.
Scattering among the front line means that the towers will be in the line of fire, and even with the (unexpected) redundancy will suffer severely, depriving the spell of it's intended, devastating effect.
It's annoying to see that plans get foiled not because of enemy strategy, not because of bad rolls, but because our orders spontaneously transmute themselves.
The redundancy is not entirely without benefits, of course. In the plains, the redundant towers may help because there we would be fighting near the tower. But in the mountains, which is what we care about, the redundant towers will be a weakness.
Post by: Andres on May 02, 2017, 05:00:43 am
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 02, 2017, 05:07:24 am
Post by: Azzuro on May 02, 2017, 06:44:01 am
Quote
Trader Actions
0 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree:
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
0 - Give him Everything:
5 - Send Everything including Roboson: Roboson, Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles, Stabby
1 - The viking way: RAM
1 (-1=0) - Send Everything including Roboson and contingency: Andres, -Roboson
Orders
2 (-1= 1 ) - Attack plains w/ primarily cavalry: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, -Azzuro
2 (-1= 1 )- Attack Eastern Sea: RAM, Roboson, - Azzuro
0 - Deploy frost towers at sea:
2 - Deploy Forever Frost along coast AND at sea if no penalty: Roboson, Azzuro
Voting against attacking the eastern theatres. They have a combat bonus there due to controlling the Eastern Sea, so we'll be throwing away our men for nothing. Unless taking them by surprise counts for a lot.
We're gonna get a beating this combat phase, depending on what Moskurg rolls out. Hopefully they failed their rolls or something?
Oh, and we should vote on what voting system to use. 2meta?
Post by: Andres on May 02, 2017, 06:54:06 am
Oh guys. I come back from work and we've made more crappy frost towers that are easier for the enemy to knock downThat wasn't what we voted to get, though.
Order: Deploy Tower of Forever Frost in the Jungle. Deploy enough Minor Frost Towers in the Mountains to kill all Moskurgs but spare Arstotzkan lives. Use any surplus Minor Frost Towers to do the same to the Jungle.
This will kill all Moskurgs in the Mountains, making it a cakewalk for us to gain victory there. If there are any towers left for us to use, we'll ship them to the Jungle and kill all Moskurgs there too. Moving the proper Tower of Forever Frost away from the Jungle when we're losing there and it's providing a major buff is a very bad idea, especially since we can kill all Moskurgs there if we use it in conjunction with enough Minor Frost Towers.
Quote
Trader ActionsWhoever first started doing negative votes is an ass for doing so. Negative votes are worthless and contribute nothing but increased annoyance.
0 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree:
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
0 - Give him Everything:
5 - Send Everything including Roboson: Roboson, Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles, Stabby
1 - The viking way: RAM
1 - Send Everything including Roboson and contingency: Andres
Orders
2 - Attack plains w/ primarily cavalry: Chiefwaffles, Roboson
2 - Attack Eastern Sea: RAM, Roboson
0 - Deploy frost towers at sea:
2 - Deploy Forever Frost along coast AND at sea if no penalty: Roboson, Azzuro
1 - Deploy Forever Frost in Jungle and Minor Frost selectively in Mountains and Jungle: Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 02, 2017, 06:57:40 am
On that note, orders have 30% chance of blowing up in our faces. Use them sparingly.
Post by: Azzuro on May 02, 2017, 07:03:27 am
Also, I'm kinda curious if the Moskurgs know how our cannons work yet. They know that we have steam engine, but do they know that the cannons are steam cannons? Because we could have a common vulnerability between the two, and they might invent antimagic shells and screw us over. evictedSaint, did the Moskurgs capture any of our cannons yet, or did they have the chance to observe it operating at close range?
Edit: Ninja'd by ebbor.
Doubleedit:
Quote
Trader Actions
0 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree:
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
0 - Give him Everything:
5 - Send Everything including Roboson: Roboson, Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles, Stabby
1 - The viking way: RAM
1 - Send Everything including Roboson and contingency: Andres
Orders
2 - Attack plains w/ primarily cavalry: Chiefwaffles, Roboson
2 - Attack Eastern Sea: RAM, Roboson
0 - Deploy frost towers at sea:
1 - Deploy Forever Frost along coast AND at sea if no penalty: Roboson
1 - Deploy Forever Frost in Jungle and Minor Frost selectively in Mountains and Jungle: Andres
Ebbor raises a good point, I'm removing my vote for the orders.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on May 02, 2017, 07:14:00 am
Quote
Trader Actions
0 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree:
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
0 - Give him Everything:
5 - Send Everything including Roboson: Roboson, Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles, Stabby
1 - The viking way: RAM
1 - Send Everything including Roboson and contingency: Andres
Orders
3 - Attack plains w/ primarily cavalry: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, Stabby
2 - Attack Eastern Sea: RAM, Roboson
0 - Deploy frost towers at sea:
1 - Deploy Forever Frost along coast AND at sea if no penalty: Roboson
1 - Deploy Forever Frost in Jungle and Minor Frost selectively in Mountains and Jungle: Andres
Post by: evictedSaint on May 02, 2017, 07:39:57 am
This also happened the first time we tried getting cheap fireballs. When we voted to do a design for cheaper Fireballs, we instead got Streamlined Fireballs, which were cheaper Minor Fireballs, not cheaper Fireballs.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Minor Fireballs were Expensive iirc and the goal was to get Cheap Fireballs your apprentices could cast. The other type of Fireball was Very Expensive and had moral penalties. That's why you made Minor Fireballs in the first place.
I had assumed that not having a single "shell this one spot here" tower would be beneficial and requiring the enemy to take all the towers to remove the cold penalty would be a good thing and took the liberty of doing so, especially since the tower of frost was built as close to the front lines as possible anyways. If that's an issue then the towers can all be built together in one spot and form a single tower again.
The tower is not built to extend into the sea theatre. If you want to attempt to make it a player in sea engagements it will require an order.
Post by: Azzuro on May 02, 2017, 07:54:37 am
I think if the tower really can't affect our engagements at sea, best not to push our luck. Voting against the sea-or-coast deploying orders.
Oh, and
evictedSaint, did the Moskurgs capture any of our cannons yet, or did they have the chance to observe it operating at close range?
Post by: evictedSaint on May 02, 2017, 08:06:14 am
Edit: they have seen your cannons up close, but couldnt use them even if they captured them due to the firespell needed.
Post by: Azzuro on May 02, 2017, 09:02:10 am
Quote
Trader Actions
0 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree:
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
0 - Give him Everything:
5 - Send Everything including Roboson: Roboson, Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles, Stabby
1 - The viking way: RAM
1 - Send Everything including Roboson and contingency: Andres
3 - Attack plains w/ primarily cavalry: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, Stabby
2 - Attack Eastern Sea: RAM, Roboson
1 - Send Myark to the Mountains: Azzuro
Orders
0 - Deploy frost towers at sea:
1 - Deploy Forever Frost along coast AND at sea if no penalty: Roboson
Voting for Sending Myark to the Mountains. We need to kick out those Moskurgs quick, then we can revise our cannons and steamships to be cheaper. Oh, and removed Andres' order as we don't have the Tower anymore. And rearranged those things which weren't strictly orders (instructions?) to prevent confusion. There's only the option of ordering the minor towers to be deployed at sea now, which I am voting against.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 02, 2017, 09:30:30 am
Quote
Guys, why ever did you vote for the frost tower revision? We didn't need it, and now the only other National Effort is the OBSOLETE Wand of Fireballs. Ugh.
Because national efforts have multiple drawbacks. One is that it can only ever be used in one place. With this, we make it possible to deploy it in many places.
Forever frost should decimate the enemy in the plains and mountains. Given it's enormous (50 miles!) range it shouldn't be within range of the enemy artillery and can nicely lower temperatures. For reference, this us what happened to Napoleon.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Our frost tower is stronger, and the Moskurgians are even less equipped for this than Napoleon's forces where. The concept of supply chains has not been invented yet, everyone still lives from what they gather.
Our firces will probably take casualties, but we have a whole supply of fireball magic, and we can instant grow edible food from the ground. Hence, we will nit be hampered.
Post by: Andres on May 02, 2017, 09:42:54 am
Minor Fireballs were Expensive iirc and the goal was to get Cheap Fireballs your apprentices could cast. The other type of Fireball was Very Expensive and had moral penalties. That's why you made Minor Fireballs in the first place.The goal was to get cheaper Fireballs. That is, turning the Very Expensive Fireballs into Expensive Fireballs, or perhaps even cheap Fireballs due to it being a full Design rather than a mere Revision. Would've been better to make the Minor Fireballs more powerful in hindsight, but that's what we voted for at the time.
I had assumed that not having a single "shell this one spot here" tower would be beneficial and requiring the enemy to take all the towers to remove the cold penalty would be a good thing and took the liberty of doing so, especially since the tower of frost was built as close to the front lines as possible anyways. If that's an issue then the towers can all be built together in one spot and form a single tower again.Wait...please don't tell me you're saying we can't have the Tower of Forever Frost and the Minor Towers at the same time. The entire point of the Revision was so that we can have the full effect of the Tower of Forever Frost in multiple regions. It's pointless to have them in multiple regions if doing so splits their power.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 02, 2017, 09:45:07 am
Just that we can't stack the coolness of the mini-tower with the maxi-tower, which would probably be fairly OP.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 02, 2017, 09:47:04 am
Pretty sure the GM means we can have multiple mini-towers equal to 1 maxi-tower in each province.
Just that we can't stack the coolness of the mini-tower with the maxi-tower, which would probably be fairly OP.
This, thank you
Post by: Andres on May 02, 2017, 09:53:42 am
Ok, this is a big relief. Thanks.Pretty sure the GM means we can have multiple mini-towers equal to 1 maxi-tower in each province.
Just that we can't stack the coolness of the mini-tower with the maxi-tower, which would probably be fairly OP.
This, thank you
Guys, why ever did you vote for the frost tower revision?Pay some attention when we're explaining this stuff. This is the third time I'm saying this so pay attention this time. If we could get multiple frost towers, we can continue getting the strong buff in the Jungle from our current tower AND kill every single Moskurg in the mountains by making it too cold for them to live. Better artillery or whatever would've given us an advantage, but it wouldn't have eliminated the entire Moskurg military presence in a region quarter. A sufficient amount of frost towers WILL, especially in the Mountains where it is already naturally cold.
Post by: Azzuro on May 02, 2017, 09:56:14 am
Still, next turn we should continue working on our cannons. I'm thinking of a scrying spell to allow us to cloak our artillery batteries fully in fog, while the revision is spent on cheapening the cannons.
EDIT: Andres, I get it, no need to be snippy.
Post by: Andres on May 02, 2017, 10:01:09 am
Maybe a better revision would be a tower of Clear Skies - using our knowledge of the mystical 'condensation' to preemptively clear the skies of clouds, as the snow and rain seem to be falling exclusively on our forces, while Moskurg is only affected by solely the cold and not the dampness ruining their equipment, so a historical comparison isn't that accurate.Their lightning is diminished because snow clouds - caused by the Tower of Forever Frost - fraks that up. Clear Skies would remove their lightning, but it would also diminish our frost effects. Better for us to design something that is a detriment purely to the enemy.
EDIT: Andres, I get it, no need to be snippy.It was the third time I had to explain it, and I believe you already asked before. You can understand why I was a bit snippy.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Roboson on May 02, 2017, 03:00:55 pm
Edit: I mean now Myark has nothing to do, the enemy is likely to destroy the towers immediately with their Greek fire homing missiles, we can't use half our spells, and our men are sniped by magical means before even seeing battle. But the towers are cool I guess. Wow I just bummed myself out hardcore.
Post by: Andres on May 02, 2017, 03:24:01 pm
I for one am pretty happy with our new towers of frost. Now we should be able to actually hit them with our icy weather instead of just a creeping cold.Yep, we're all pretty happy with the new towers now that everything's been clarified. We can apply Forever Frost levels of cold to all three provinces, we can do so without Myark, and it's harder for Moskurg to destroy the enchantment.
Edit: I mean now Myark has nothing to do, the enemy is likely to destroy the towers immediately with their Greek fire homing missiles, we can't use half our spells, and our men are sniped by magical means before even seeing battle. But the towers are cool I guess. Wow I just bummed myself out hardcore.Myark has hordes of Moskurgs for him to roast to death with fireballs and stuff and the enemy almost certainly does not have artillery with a range of 80.5 km, so they won't be blowing them up immediately any time soon. We have the Mountains on lock because of the new towers and Myark may be enough to hold the Moskurg tide in the Jungle.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Roboson on May 02, 2017, 03:32:43 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 02, 2017, 03:45:44 pm
Tensile thoughness decreases dramatically with temperature, and it's exactly in that way that their weapons store energy. Our weapons will have similar issues, but far less severe. Not only will the heat of the boiler prevent the weapon from freezing completely, our weapon does not store it's energy in tensile strength. The barrel merely has to survive.
Also, their operators will freeze to dead.
I'm counting on the latter more than the former, really.
Post by: RAM on May 02, 2017, 04:10:00 pm
we've seen in these last few turns, a lot of designs have been proposed and we've had some ties, some vast majorities, and some designs that only get one vote. Typically the vote of the proposer. To prevent someone for voting for the idea they think is most appropriate stifles the process (a process which is not broken and doesn't need fixing by the way).I really fail to see your reasoning here. As far as I can tell, if it only got a vote from its proposer, then it was either a bad idea for the time, impractical, misunderstood genius, or a victim of politics. No matter how you look at it, they almost certainly could have spent their vote better, and were probably dulled by much the same phenomena that renders proof-reading more effective if you give it some time to become less familiar. Ties, on the other hand, are more likely with fewer voters, which is precisely why we would benefit from reducing the single-votes for a personal project. Instead of five different proposals with one vote each, you will tend to get one with three and one with two and everything else with nothing because when you take away the appeal of it being your own product, and the magic of it being exactly what you thought of to deal with things, there isn't enough left for anyone else to think it is the best proposal.
Basically, every time that a proposal gets only the vote of its proposer, I feel that we see a vote that might have been spent to get a result that they wanted instead of buoying something that is not going to happen. They would, themselves, benefit, if everyone does it. And every tie that could be broken by all the proposers taking away their self-vote and putting it in as a best-of-the-rest vote is an example of freeing up votes that are spread out in order to focus them down to the consensually-agreed "pretty good" proposals. If you still get a tie after all the votes are directed to just a couple of ideas, then you have a tie because those ideas are really close in preference, and there really isn't much that can be done about that without restricting people's ability to express themselves...
Voting against attacking the eastern theatres. They have a combat bonus there due to controlling the Eastern Sea, so we'll be throwing away our men for nothing. Unless taking them by surprise counts for a lot.I think that we should hit the sea to stop them from pushing into our own sea and cutting off our sea bonus on the tundra... Breaking their horsies would be fun if we can do it quickly, so I am on the fence about the plains.
Oh, Waffles! You were asking about something to defeat their luck magic. If you don't mind my asking, what is wrong with my antiluck charms?
The idea of rendering our important forces completely luckless seems like it would work. I mean, how can you say that randomly being the only person in the whole unit to get a rock land on you due to magical influence being anything other than magically-afflicted bad-luck? I mean, sure, they only cast the spell on their own people, but it has repercussions on our own luck and reasonably couldn't exist if our own luck didn't exist, all without actually needing to learn how to manipulate luck directly, rather just tweaking our brute-suction charms from the 'visible spectrum' of magic to the 'microwaves' of luck. Which presumably must exist because otherwise how would luck magic even work... And then we can revise in some statistical analysis to reduce the effect of equipment failures as exploding boilers stop being a matter of blind luck and start being a matter of complex patterns that can be somewhat predicted...
Post by: evictedSaint on May 02, 2017, 04:36:25 pm
-----
Consider this: rather than proposing two things and immediately adding them to the list of votes, you can propose two things and for either of them to be added to the list you need two people to "second" each one.
This prevents the list from inflating with zero and one vote items because you need at least two other people to go "this is a good idea". They don't have to vote for it, they just need to agree that it is a relevant and practical idea.
Post by: Light forger on May 02, 2017, 04:44:01 pm
Quote
Trader Actions
0 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree:
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
0 - Give him Everything:
6 - Send Everything including Roboson: Roboson, Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles, Stabby, Lightforger
1 - The viking way: RAM
1 - Send Everything including Roboson and contingency: Andres
4 - Attack plains w/ primarily cavalry: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, Stabby, Lightforger
2 - Attack Eastern Sea: RAM, Roboson
1 - Send Myark to the Mountains: Azzuro
Orders
0 - Deploy frost towers at sea:
1 - Deploy Forever Frost along coast AND at sea if no penalty: Roboson
Post by: Andres on May 02, 2017, 04:44:46 pm
Quote
Trader Actions
6 - Send Everything including Roboson: Roboson, Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles, Stabby, Lightforger
4 - Attack plains w/ primarily cavalry: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, Stabby, Lightforger
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Roboson on May 02, 2017, 04:46:42 pm
Post by: Andres on May 02, 2017, 04:48:33 pm
It doesn't matter if you think they are wasting their vote. It's their vote, not yours. if they want to change it, they can always do so. You don't have a right to dictacte the way other people vote.What are you talking about?
I second the seconding method.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Roboson on May 02, 2017, 04:54:02 pm
It doesn't matter if you think they are wasting their vote. It's their vote, not yours. if they want to change it, they can always do so. You don't have a right to dictacte the way other people vote.What are you talking about?
I second the seconding method.
Glory to Arstotzka.
this.
-snip- No matter how you look at it, they almost certainly could have spent their vote better -snip-
Basically, every time that a proposal gets only the vote of its proposer, I feel that we see a vote that might have been spent to get a result that they wanted instead of buoying something that is not going to happen. They would, themselves, benefit, if everyone does it. And every tie that could be broken by all the proposers taking away their self-vote and putting it in as a best-of-the-rest vote is an example of freeing up votes that are spread out in order to focus them down to the consensually-agreed "pretty good" proposals. If you still get a tie after all the votes are directed to just a couple of ideas, then you have a tie because those ideas are really close in preference, and there really isn't much that can be done about that without restricting people's ability to express themselves...
The idea of regulating how people can and can't vote is not ok. If someone wants to "throw away" their vote on their idea because they think its what we need, thats up to them. There is no reason to tyrannically manage how people vote, its their vote and they should be able to do with it what they want.
Quote
Trader Actions[/quote]
0 - Give him Dogwood Wands+Tree:
0 - Give him more Crystal Weapons+Apprentice:
0 - Give him Everything:
6 - Send Everything including Roboson: Roboson, Azzuro, 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles, Stabby, Lightforger
1 - The viking way: RAM
1 - Send Everything including Roboson and contingency: Andres
4 - Attack plains w/ primarily cavalry: Chiefwaffles, Roboson, Stabby, Lightforger
2 - Attack Eastern Sea: RAM, Roboson
2 - Send Myark to the Mountains: Azzuro, Roboson
Orders
0 - Deploy frost towers at sea:
0 - Deploy Forever Frost along coast AND at sea if no penalty:
Changed my deployment vote.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 02, 2017, 04:57:50 pm
On that matter, I am in full agreement with Roboson.
Consider this: rather than proposing two things and immediately adding them to the list of votes, you can propose two things and for either of them to be added to the list you need two people to "second" each one..
Would create significant issues, as well as serious overhead.
Any discussion, no matter how mild, would drown out any new proposal. Also, who's going to keep track of endorsements and add them to the list?
Post by: Andres on May 02, 2017, 05:01:40 pm
Post by: RAM on May 02, 2017, 05:04:47 pm
It doesn't matter if you think they are wasting their vote. It's their vote, not yours. if they want to change it, they can always do so. You don't have a right to dictacte the way other people vote.Of course I don't have that right, which is why I am pointing out the benefits so that the majority can form an angry mob which, while not actually possessing superior rights(actually, the concept of rights is pretty much completely fictional to begin with) has a whole "might makes right" thing going for it...
I second the seconding method.
But I am not aiming to impose my will on others, I am aiming to improve the extent to which the votes represent the community's will and increase the community's ability to reach consensus. I have only ever pointed out when people are or are not adhering to the principal, and if you impose yourself upon others to exclude the option to submit commentary than there is little than anyone can do to argue for any sort of change, thus making improvement largely a matter of pure chance...
prevents the list from inflating with zero and one vote itemsI do not understand the problem with zero-vote items, as they do not influence the outcome. Is the screen-space they consume an issue?
And I will note that voting is currently regulated and enforced. I could switch to my weighted voted system, where I have one vote that is worth 4, one that is worth 3, and one that is worth 2. By doing so in the current system, I would then have a total of nine votes. I rather suspect that people would be rather vocal in preventing my use of such, and would remove my votes from the chart when they copy it. So I would ask that people who say "The idea of regulating how people can and can't vote is not ok" to kindly... accord themselves in a fashion that can be responded to without insults.
Post by: Roboson on May 02, 2017, 05:19:53 pm
He's talking about Ram's insistence that everyone should not vote for their own thing.
On that matter, I am in full agreement with Roboson.Consider this: rather than proposing two things and immediately adding them to the list of votes, you can propose two things and for either of them to be added to the list you need two people to "second" each one..
Would create significant issues, as well as serious overhead.
Any discussion, no matter how mild, would drown out any new proposal. Also, who's going to keep track of endorsements and add them to the list?
Actually yeah, I would say that any sort of regulation could have a negative impact on the discussion. Now that we've been using it, I don't really like the two proposals only rule. Someone can have three good ideas, it happens.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 02, 2017, 05:32:13 pm
So long as it doesn't hold things up significantly when it's time to move to the next phase, you guys can regulate yourselves.
Post by: Andres on May 02, 2017, 05:35:47 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on May 02, 2017, 05:37:37 pm
Post by: RAM on May 02, 2017, 05:49:34 pm
People are generally only terrible because they care, which really doesn't help much...
Post by: Roboson on May 02, 2017, 05:50:23 pm
Post by: RAM on May 02, 2017, 06:03:18 pm
Post by: Roboson on May 02, 2017, 06:07:56 pm
I worry that it is too much of a hassle for everyone to adopt, it means doing more than just copying the whole thing and changing a number... Also I feel that it'll focus people's attention to the top couple of items, so that new suggestion down the bottom will tend to get overlooked and people won't be as likely to change from the front0runners, but it will probably also reduce ties for much the same reasons...
Eh, its a simple matter of copying a line and moving it up one after you've copied the entire thing. Its like 3 extra clicks. In any case, it gets the new proposals on the list or at least allowed into the discussion, ehich is more than they get now. People will still vote as they always do, strategically or not. But this method does add a bit of extra clarity, even if it does add length.
I do agree it will be slightly more work than what we do now, but it could help make the process clearer and more open. Just a suggestion though, if we're going to change the system somehow, we should probably vote on it.
Post by: RAM on May 02, 2017, 06:26:18 pm
Post by: Azzuro on May 02, 2017, 06:27:43 pm
Post by: Gwolfski on May 02, 2017, 06:29:14 pm
Glory to Arstotzka!
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 02, 2017, 06:40:31 pm
Post by: OceanSoul on May 02, 2017, 06:40:48 pm
Post by: RAM on May 02, 2017, 07:12:09 pm
So. What do you guys think of learning how to perform lobotomies so we can turn captured enemies into drooling idiots and then release them to our foes to demoralize them?My feelings tend mostly towards a sense of redundancy towards the first part and futility towards the latter...
Post by: Roboson on May 02, 2017, 07:39:25 pm
Post by: RAM on May 02, 2017, 07:49:58 pm
Post by: OceanSoul on May 02, 2017, 08:11:11 pm
Well, I despise google docs with the fury of a thousand burning Arstozkan children denied their chance at Valhalla, but maybe other people like that garbage?Valhalla? Don't you dare assimilate the magicless Norse's beliefs not with the name of culture into our own! [/glory_to_Arstotzka]
Post by: Roboson on May 02, 2017, 08:31:42 pm
Well, I despise google docs with the fury of a thousand burning Arstozkan children denied their chance at Valhalla, but maybe other people like that garbage?
I mean I prefer word and open office, but those don't particularly have the sharing capabilities that we'd need for this.
Post by: RAM on May 02, 2017, 08:42:07 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 02, 2017, 11:44:59 pm
(Future) Design: HA1
Development of the HCx series recently grinded to a halt. With every single new idea and concept being implemented leading to failure and requests for the budget to improve things such as expense denied, the lead Mathemagician of the Hybrid Cannon project decided to turn to a new direction. He'd re-invent the Hybrid Cannon. The HC2 was an unfortunate failure, and salvaging it is frankly useless. The HC1 is reliable, but simply won't fare as the battlefield changes. The HC1-E variant has gone as far as it can. Revisions don't last forever, and sometimes you just need to consolidate your improvements into one design and include some breakthroughs.
The HA1 uses the lessons learned from the SBP1-A in fixing the problems inherent to the HC2, along with the advantages of the HCx-E variants. This is all very simple stuff and normally could be left to a revision, but that's not all.
"Cannons" are the way of the past. Using a name the lead Mathemagician heard being discussed nonchalantly in the hallway - "artillery", he has came up with a new series name - the HA. Hbrid Artillery. "Extreme range" was a name given to the capabilities of the HC1-E by awe-struck field commanders, but it doesn't give you a true insight into the capabilities of the HC1-E. Really, the project lead explained, it's best described still as "long range". But this - this new technology - will finally be deserving of the "extreme" label thrown around so carelessly in the past.
The HA1 utilizes the longest barrel we've crafted. Using simple gears, the barrel can be easily rotated like the stubby HC1-E. A larger and improved pressurization compartment combined with the aforementioned longer barrel increases the range of the projectile to true extreme ranges far beyond that of the HCx-E variants. The rate of fire and reliability improvements from the HC2 are also implemented in the design along with the lessons of the SPB1-A (and to a lesser degree, the frost towers) to actually get these improvements to reliably function. The new barrel can even field larger shells that should be able to reliably do more damage to the filthy Moskurgians!
The HA1 utilizes advanced manufacturing techniques to be able to be produced at a rate rivalling the HC1. Standardized equipment used for measures and things such as casting and pouring given to workers significantly reduce the amount of time to craft individual parts. Hiring many laborers and teaching them how to only work at one part of a time then having them work together in a line of assembly greatly reduces cost and the need for individual trained craftsmen. The Project Lead has taken to calling the places where the manufacturing would occur "factories".
In short: A consolidation of the HC1-E, HC1, and HC2, with increased range and damage, and an Expensive target. "But Chiefwaffles," some may say, "that sure sounds complicated!"
But does it?
The HC2's design elements were incorporated into the fairly-successful SPB1-A. The HC1-E is perfectly functional, and so is HC1. We have a very sound advantage in the basic consolidating of improvements. Then increased range and damage are all simple things and given our experience with this stuff and the idea of "learning through failures" like the two revisions in a row rolling 1 make those trivial things. The most questionable part is the expense, but with all the other things locked down, expense shouldn't be that big of a deal. (The factory thing is just fluff - there's no automation.) The revision can be used making the CO1-AM I posted a few pages ago to somewhat effectively counter Lucky Strike and other spells.
And I realize I'm basically writing designs now like one would write the results of a design was just rolled, but it's super fun to do.
EDIT: And regarding the range - that's not the point of the design. The main point is a cheaper functional HC2-E with miscellaneous improvements. The range is there to make life easier such that we will only need to devise a method to effectively spot at the super extreme ranges. And the extra range isn't useless (though definitely not that useful and would be a bad revision by itself) - like someone mentioned before, it could be used for thins like shelling fortified enemy positions that we know the locations of and that we know won't move for a while.
I still like my idea for Carrier Animals.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 03, 2017, 12:03:17 am
Future Design: PA1 "Stalwart" Crystallized Plate Mail
"What do you mean, 'we aren't using crystal armor'?!" screamed the now-Project Lead after learning about the fact that crystals are fairly useless right now and that we aren't using crystal armor. He planned to change that.
The PA1 "Stalwart" - Personal Armor 1 "Stalwart" is a significant step forward from the original Plate Mail. We need to face it: The days of our mighty plate mail protecting us from everything are over. But we can bring them back. The armor doesn't actually use crystals - that'd be a difficult task and also useless against enemy antimagic.
But instead it uses lessons learned from crystal. At a more minor Mathemagics lab at the edges of Arstotzka, Mathemagician researchers managed to gain a glimpse into what makes our crystal the way it is by replicating greatly enlarged crystals for seconds to gain brief sights into the wonders of our crystal. This was very expensive, but none of the techniques used here are planned for use in the PA1 Stalwart.
That same research lab also found an interesting way to almost "crystallize" non-crystal materials. The process in which the materials are crystallized is a magical process performed in a prepared environment (though mass production has been factored into the proposal) yet after this process is done, there's no hint of magic in the materials - our magicmeters (one researcher's clever tweaking of a anti-magic charm) show nothing but the ambient magic. This material is found to be stronger and much lighter than our previous plate mail, allowing for increased agility and protection.
The PA1 Stalwart is then made from this material and fitted onto our troops. No new metal is used; in fact - less metal is used as while the weight of a crystallized material is preserved, the size is increased. The only added part is the crystallizing process used in the making of the new plate mail.
It's a new armor design. Fairly self-explanatory, but with a cool description and process!
Post by: Roboson on May 03, 2017, 12:48:40 am
Still, great write up Chief.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 03, 2017, 01:22:45 am
And the way I write those types of designs may be a biit too similar to the way Evicted writes the game posts. The tenses, how problems are "solved", etc., all kind of match that after-action report style.
Post by: Roboson on May 03, 2017, 01:41:28 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 03, 2017, 01:57:17 am
"Wage War Against The Heavens"
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 03, 2017, 02:08:15 am
That sounds awfully Arstotzkian of you, Roboson. Jamming their prayers? I'm proud and we should do it.
Related design:
Joke Design: SO1-AG "Rod to God"
"You know what? Just shoot them. The whole thing. We don't need them."
~Project Lead
An anti-magic charm is tuned up to insane proportions. Through intense efforts by many of our best wizards and the leadership of Myark, we may bring up the anti-magic field of an anti-magic charm to extreme proportions. The area is extremely small, but the power is so intense that the charm can disappear from reality once any more energy is added. This charm is loaded into a hollow Special Ordinance shell along with the best explosive we can find in Forenia.
The SO1-AG is then shot out of a cannon and once it hits an enemy magic field, the entire shell will disappear into the Heavens, where it will blow up any local supernatural deities, with a particular tendency to blow up the deity that person is likely praying to thanks to the shell currently homing in on them. Rinse and repeat until the gods are dead.
Special Ordinance 1 - Anti-God "Rod to God"
Post by: RAM on May 03, 2017, 02:22:17 am
Living Crystal Charms
While referred to, and appearing as, charms, this is not actually derived from antimagic charms.
By imbuing the "spark of life" found in our conjured fire-wasps instead into a crystal we have granted the crystal the ability to react to stimuli.
By combining it with a gem(A ruby, ideally, over the heart, though other red gems also work if you don't mind a risk of cracking under stress.), mages are able to recharge it, and imbue it with reserve energy.
By imbuing it with a variant of channelled fog, it can continuously resummon an extremely fine, effectively invisible, cloud of minute crystal particles. These particles only last a moment before fading and being resummoned, as any more would have an immense magic cost, but it can transmit its "will" through this cloud and sense any movement or magic within the cloud.
Being crystalline in nature, the charm's "life" is only partially physical, as it lacks the moving parts required for conventional life, it needed to be a living entity that exists partially as a "pure" expression of magic. This grants it some measure of magical awareness that can be matched only by the most sophisticated of our gem arrays back at the lab, and can thus react to them much faster than anything we could hope to match using current techniques.
Finally, the crystal charm effectively exists in two forms. The first form, is an unassuming necklace with a crystal growth around a red gem. The second form is that of a crystal shell, of a thinckness that defaults to five centimetres, that completely coats the wearer while perfectly contouring to their body, actually suspending their clothing and equipment within its structure to completely encase the subject. We had some, unfortunate incidents... with the prototype, but have included strict protocols to prevent it lasting more than 20 seconds in this latter form.
The basic functionality is to encase the wearer in a nearly invulnerable shell of crystal as soon as imminent injury to the wearer is detected. We have done what we could to keep our first experience in living crystals from being too eagre or shy in this duty, but... well, we are hopeful that it will properly defend against anything lethal or crippling and disable itself promptly to conserve power when the threat has passed.
The advanced functionality is to have the charm respond dynamically to threats. A single centimetre of crystal shell is far more than enough to deflect any arrow, but we worry that the enemy could expand their project and something even greater than the absurd five-centimetres projected for the production model would stop, and we have not tested it against a point-blank fireball or cannon round... So we hope that it will use its "mind" to determine what is required and protect accordingly, but should stick to the default if it doesn't know.
The metamagic effect is that it is a wilful being with a significant awareness of magic and a reserve of magical power, it can "fight" magical attacks to its own being, and in doing so, defeat the enemy effects to disable its magic. We have tried training them against antimagic charms, which obviously do not dispel the crystal construct but have been noted to often "blind" them and inhibit their transition into a shell. We don't know how similar this is to enemy antimagic, but we hop to question some of these magical beings after they have had first-hand experience of the enemy's effect, assuming that they survive or can be regenerated from the original gem after being dissipated... This is all conjecture, but the "living spell" project has shown great promise as a theory of countering the enemy antispellcraft.
The projected performance is to persist 20 seconds of shell form or two hours in charm form. Or 10 seconds in shell form AND 1 hour in charm form. Or some other combination following that ratio. On a wizard the power can be restored with focus and will, allowing it to remain indefinitely so long as the wizard takes regular breaks from their other duties...
And thus we have something that will make our wizards extremely uncomfortable in order to make them continue living. It isn't anchored though, and crystals are light, so it is less likely to break than a steel fortress of the same thickness, but a particularly forceful blow could injure or kill them by accelerating them quickly... Also, lightning is fast, so it may not stop lightning until it learns what the buildup of charge means, so people should be encouraged to loot these from the dead, as they can learn and
...
Rod to God literally gets my vote.
Post by: Roboson on May 03, 2017, 02:25:13 am
Also voting for Rod to God, almost no matter what.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 03, 2017, 02:31:48 am
Future Design: SO1-AD "Hopeless"
Special Ordinance 1 - Anti-Deity "Hopeless"
"The Moskurgians could potentially be praying to their gods. We aim to fix that."
~Proposal introduction
Upon the revelation from one of the Chief Mathemagicians in the Arstotzksan Design Bureau that the Moskurgians could potentially be using some kind of religion-based method to power their magic, a design to remedy their praying was immediately put forward. First, the proposal and preliminary design for the SO1-AM, the preliminary anti-magic shell was taken from storage and a new team was assigned to it.
Instead of a loud and obvious shrapnel-based effect, the shell was to be made in such a way that it would essentially "bury" itself. Instead of blowing apart on impact, the shell would embed itself into the ground along with slightly-reduced damage to its surroundings. A crystal-based device similar to an anti-magic charm fills the insides of the shell. Magic waves were measured with many different types of anti-magic charms tweaked to heat up with varying types of waves. A wave was found that corresponds to "prayer" and was recorded down.
But instead of going with the same approach as the anti-magic charm: absorbing waves; we went with a different approach that we call "jamming". The anti-diety crystal produces an ambient magical wave which directly conflicts with the prayer waves and cancels them out. When a very religious person, such as presumedly a Moskurgian mage, is very close to the device, they tend to experience headaches and confusion as well, but this is a mild effect not useful in the field due to its tiny range. The "jamming" design of the internal crystal produces a much greater range than that of the charm which just passively absorbs magic.
The intended use of the SO1-AD is to be launched in a compatible launcher and carpet enemy lines. The "anti-diety charms" inside the shells will remain active as the shells are spread across the enemy lines. The enemies will lose the ability to pray and thus hopefully lose contact with their so-called "gods" and therefore many of their powers.
Above is my actual answer to this religious thing. Similar principle to the SO1-AM (I'm naming it "SO" instead of "CO" for future name-compatibility if designs like the HA1 get passed in future design rounds.) where the goal is to bring the anti-______ to the enemy instead of spending multiple revisions extending the range of our current stuff.
I'd still rather do the HA1 next design round because this is a very risky design in that it may be completely useless.
Post by: Roboson on May 03, 2017, 02:51:51 am
Post by: RAM on May 03, 2017, 03:39:48 am
Post by: Roboson on May 03, 2017, 03:52:00 am
This would, of course, mean picking a fight with their gods directly. I am okay with that!
The prayer jammer probably wouldn't be. Shooting at it/them probably would be. Either way, I'm in.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 03, 2017, 03:55:51 am
Doing cheaper HC1-E as a revision with the SO1-AD as the design could work, but I'd still prefer the benefits of the HA1 and the SO1-AD.
Post by: Azzuro on May 03, 2017, 06:59:01 am
Anyway we should probably wait for the combat report before deciding on designs to make.
Post by: andrea on May 03, 2017, 07:00:58 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 03, 2017, 09:32:08 am
EDIT: And I wouldn't be surprised if they don't actually necessarily have gods and still use a religious power. That's a thing in fantasy, no? It could be a belief in gods that grants magic, not the gods themselves.
Maybe. This is just a guess on a guess
Post by: evictedSaint on May 03, 2017, 09:38:41 am
Post by: andrea on May 03, 2017, 09:52:24 am
but it happens to all of us. To me, at any rate.
any ETA?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 03, 2017, 12:36:59 pm
Far Future Idea: HAx-L "Determinator"
Hybrid Artillery x - Living "Determinator"
The hybrid artillery isn't a game changer, but we can make it one.
Using the same ideas expressed in proposals by others, we can attempt to imbue a gem or crystal with life. But what if we did this with a weapon?
Behold, the HAx-L. An autonomous artillery piece. The imbued intelligence is able to use magical "motors", as our mathemagicians call them, to autonomously move the artillery. The modified PSF spell is made to be a part of the design and therefore activate-able by the intelligence. Linking the intelligence with spells we would use for sighting enemies at the time of the design allows it to be aware of the battlefield.
Perhaps the ultimate weapon.
For consideration if we progress that much into RAM's (I think) crystal life stuff.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 03, 2017, 12:38:41 pm
shame on you, shame.
but it happens to all of us. To me, at any rate.
any ETA?
In ~5 hours. I could write it up on my phone, but I've tried that a few phases ago and it's too cumbersome.
Post by: Andres on May 03, 2017, 01:36:12 pm
The next design is ultimately not a major one. It is two fixes and only one true advancement. The first fix is making the cannon Expensive instead of Very Expensive. The second fix is sanding away the reliability issues. The advancement is to remove the need for apprentices.
There are two ways I can see the advancement going. The first way is some kind of rune that passively draws in magical energy from the air to charge a PSF. The operator of the cannon then merely has to activate the rune - possibly by touch - and the cannon will fire. This will presumably have a lower rate of fire than apprentice cannons.
The second way is to contain the PSF spell in a crystal, which upon destruction releases the spell. This will either keep or exceed our current rate of fire, but will have an increased Ore cost.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 03, 2017, 02:25:41 pm
Spoiler: Future ideas for dealing with that: (click to show/hide)
Post by: Roboson on May 03, 2017, 02:32:04 pm
Yeah. This is all just possibilities to go with next design phase. Mostly it's just that I like typing out the designs.
EDIT: And I wouldn't be surprised if they don't actually necessarily have gods and still use a religious power. That's a thing in fantasy, no? It could be a belief in gods that grants magic, not the gods themselves.
Maybe. This is just a guess on a guess
This was sort of the premise I was operating on. They definitely seem to have religious elements, whether it's their crazy hero, their spellbook, or that one time their mages spoke in tongues, something strange is going on. Religion is the best explanation for that. It may also explain why their antimagic doesn't seem to effect their mages. So an anti-divination (not necessarily anti-religious, but definitely covered within the divination category) jammer barrage should really muck up their magic. They're starting spells are divination, and it's quite likely they've based their other spells on that school as well. So it's not a total gamble.
Here's how I see it:
Lucky strike = divination for sure
Mind reading = divination for sure
Detect ambush = divination for sure
We can definitely counter these with an anti-divination jammer.
Anti-magic = possible divination
Their spell that allows the to coordinate extremely well (remember this one from forever ago?) = possible divination.
Sleep spell = possible, but unlikely.
These are all bonus things we may counter by going up against their starting school.
Wind = unlikely divination
Lightning = possible, but we've already countered that
Ballistas with Greek fire = if the jammer stops lucky strike, then those suddenly suck.
These are the other things they have that I remember off the top of my head. An anti-divination jammer will likely only have secondary effects on these.
All and all, it's a good gamble. It has the potential to counter their three starting spells (one of which is the bane of our existence) and has the added bonus of messing with their other spells. I'd say that's worth a design phase.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 03, 2017, 02:34:59 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 03, 2017, 02:51:43 pm
Again though, I still really want to go with the HA1. If we get okay rolls then we can use our revision to make the CO1-AM.
When I actually submit the HA1 I want to consider adding some of Andres' suggestions. Probably not since I want to keep the complexity low-enough for a good shot at Expensive levels.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 03, 2017, 02:55:39 pm
Post by: Roboson on May 03, 2017, 03:36:44 pm
Post by: RAM on May 03, 2017, 03:50:29 pm
For a next design, I'm thinking perhaps we should move into the next generation of cannon.We have gems that can be a sort of symbiosis of some sort with crystal axes that allow the axe to be permanent so long as a wizard stops by and renews the spell. I exect that we could do the same thing with a firewall, although it is permanent temperature magic instead of permanent conjuration magic. And there is the further problem that the fireball that launches it is not permanent, it is activated. Having the apprentice only need to fire the cannon might allow them to operate several while the crew reloads them, but it would not negate the problem. If we could extend the gem-fed magic technology into a wand-like contraption and have a mundane activation, or perhaps a miniscule-magic activation combined with a revision to the academy to teach our apprentices to teach our troops in order to give them "You can't magic on your own, but this is how to use trace-magic to activate a pre-charged magic device" abilities then a system derived from a wand might be able to relegate our apprentices to a role akin to
The next design is ultimately not a major one. It is two fixes and only one true advancement. The first fix is making the cannon Expensive instead of Very Expensive. The second fix is sanding away the reliability issues. The advancement is to remove the need for apprentices.
There are two ways I can see the advancement going. The first way is some kind of rune that passively draws in magical energy from the air to charge a PSF. The operator of the cannon then merely has to activate the rune - possibly by touch - and the cannon will fire. This will presumably have a lower rate of fire than apprentice cannons.
The second way is to contain the PSF spell in a crystal, which upon destruction releases the spell. This will either keep or exceed our current rate of fire, but will have an increased Ore cost.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: andrea on May 03, 2017, 03:58:27 pm
Post by: OceanSoul on May 03, 2017, 04:20:35 pm
Then again, magical inversion could be used to make opposites to our own spells. Those Mushkurgs can't handle the cold, so how about some Iceballs? Add in a little crystal magic, and we can send shrapnel en masse to our front lines. Our concealing fog could become a Revealing Fog...or it could dispel fog. And, for your information, clouds are essentially high bundles of fog, so we may have some anti-weather magic there
We could also tune our Antimagic to divination specifically. Speaking, what if there was a way to make an anti magic crystal absorb a spell, instead of negating it? If we did this, we may be able to unleash those spells back on the enemy, or if we're lucky, reverse-engineer them to learn how to cast them for ourselves.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 03, 2017, 04:59:27 pm
The problem with revisions to our charms is that we can't make the revision useful in just one turn. Sure, we could make them Anti-divination charms but they still have short ranges and are expensive. Increasing their range isn't useful as it'd then probably be medium range which doesn't help if they're killed before getting to medium range because of lucky strike.
Hence the shells. They're easy delivery decides to the enemy lines. We don't have to worry nearly as much about range when we can bring them to the enemy with the range of our artillery.
My current ideal plan of action:
1. Develop HA1. This should hopefully be the culmination of all our artillery efforts and could last us quite a while while we focus on other things. Without doubt a design.
2. Recuse SO1-AM. While the AD variant is definitely a design, the AM variant, like I've said before, is more so a revision of the anti-magic bomb. Put it in shell form (extremely easy) then make it shatter in still-active shrapnel once it hits a magic field and is primed by launch. This part is the actual revision.
With no failed rolls (who am I kidding) well have the dominant artillery and he best weapon in our arsenal and a shell to capitalize on that weapon and counter the enemy lucky strike and many other spells. Then later we can revise the AM to make an AD variant with ease.
Note to self: Include priming mechanism in SO1-AM variant.
Post by: RAM on May 03, 2017, 05:12:17 pm
I do not think that it is impossible for opmagic to work, but attuning the output into opmagic, and assuming that opmagic is a state that can exist, amd preventing the thing from just absorbing opmagic and converting it into normal magic or lovecraftian magic, are both difficulties.
Post by: Azzuro on May 03, 2017, 06:34:49 pm
Divination sounds like divine, but it's not the same thing. The issue is that their starting spellbook doesn't actually make much sense, how is mind reading divination? Maybe they're looking into the future to see our future actions and fake mind reading that way ... but that's way way O.P. for a starting spell. And I don't even see how as you postulate, anti-magic is related to divination.
All that said, I'll be in favor of an anti-divination jammer shell if that helps us against Lucky Strike. But that requires that we get in range of their ballistae, which we can't do without getting into their range as we didn't roll out enough HC1-E's. I still think the best anti-Lucky Strike is:
For what it's worth, I actually think how we were described as doing it this round seems like a good route to try. Blanket the battlefield with fog, rely on outside spotters to call back targets. We could venture into scrying spells to extend this further (yes I know it's a new field of magic). Can't hit targets when you don't even know if they're there or not, after all.
Scrying spell, then spend a revision to fix it or set up a specialised artillery spotter corps. We won't get to cheapen our cannons, but this'll give us the range advantage without going down the rabbit hole of revising our cannons for increased range. HC1s will be given a new lease of life and usefulness.
And as for Moskurg anti-magic, here's what we do know, not speculation:
-SPELL named Tubikh Rrahim
-cast using a white ivory staff. This is pretty significant as our own anti-magic are charms that require no magic at all to use, as we've issued them around to our guards and commanders, while Moskurg is stuck needing wizards to set up their anti-magic spell. Which didn't go well for them as can be seen from our anti-mage hunters, sniping the very obvious staff-wielding mages. I think this gives us an advantage in anti-magic ammunition, which they might not be able to do at all except in the case of ultra-fanatic mages, heh.
-In 927, they rolled out a significant revision to the spell, allowing them to shape its area of influence and thereby focus its range to mid-range, at the cost of making the boundaries of the field visible. It also seems to have made the anti-magic selective if it wasn't already, invaliding the anti-magic use of our arrows.
Our main issue is that our anti-magic charms were really only made to counter the sleep spell, not exert a significant influence on combat spellcasting as theirs is. If we want to match them for antimagic, we have to upgrade the charms, perhaps making them cheap enough to issue to every soldier, or making anti-magic ammunition that isn't affected by their own anti-magic.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 03, 2017, 06:43:43 pm
Like I said, revising them to be useful for what we need now isn't practical. The enemies are casting lucky strike on their artillery and ranged units. Having medium range charms won't cut it, and even if we did upgrade our charms' ranges, we'd have to implement selective blocking to avoid effective military suicide.
But ordinance like the SO1-AM (Anti-magic shell) can circumvent this. Our spells are primarily done at range, so we don't need selective blocking if the anti-magic only affects the places where our artillery typically strike. By bringing it to them, we also don't need to bother with range revisions.
For anti-divination in the future, I recommend building on the jammer idea from the SO1-AD. It doesn't have to be Anti-deity, but the wave "jamming" method is the anti-magic of the future. Bonus if we can have our Anti-divination stuff hurt their wizards as well.
Perhaps a tower or similar device to deliver the effect?
Post by: RAM on May 03, 2017, 07:19:43 pm
waste a design giving a middle finger to their cultureI hear the words but I just can't parse the concept of wastage in this context. Are you concerned that it may not be the firmest, longest, broadest, most erect and thrusting middle-finger that they have ever encountered? I am confident that our mathemagicians will put all of their efforts into perfecting this design!
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 03, 2017, 08:32:35 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on May 03, 2017, 10:34:04 pm
The jungle sees Moskurg once again gain the advantage.
First and foremost was the executive decision to use their new fire artillery shells as impromptu-grenades [2d6 = [3, 4] = 3]. Moskurg calvary ride into Arstotzkan camps in the dead of night, flinging clay pots filled to the brim with their flammable liquid. Every calvaryman carries at least one; as they charge through our camps they fling them into tents and fortifications. The splash is limited in range, and again limited by their throwing distance, but when every man has one it has a devastating effect. Our camps burn in the night and smoke chokes the air after every raid. Truly they are honorless cowards; what sort of low snake would resort to fire to win a war? Our own attacks are still successful, doing well against Moskurg soldiers shivering in the cold, but their new fire tactics are terribly effective. Without needing a mage to cast the fire their troops are a frightening force to reckon with. Both sides slaughter each other bloody, but Moskurg does more damage.
This year saw our Tower of Frost being torn down. Our men are sad to see it go as the ivory sides were long a symbol of Arstotzkan pride, but the new Minor Towers are just as good, if not better. By spreading the spell throughout several different towers Moskurg must tear them all down to completely negate our frost ability. They dot the line dividing the jungle and our men rally around them, crowding the battlements with cannons and archers and padding the ground with wooden fortifications and stakes. We watch from above as Moskurg artillery rolls into range of the HC1-E's mounted on our towers and laugh. If our knowledge of their equipment is correct, they must march a long way through our cannon fire before they can even hope to touch us. Indeed we begin shelling them from far away, even scoring a few solid hits that cause their ballistas to burst into flames. It appears their fire shells are delicate and will go up easily, and it fills our hearts with joy to see Moskurg soldiers burning to death again.
But then they stop, just inside the range of our Elite Cannons. Boulders, javelins, and clay pots filled with flames fall soon after, hitting us from Extreme Range. We watch as the cold air whooshes past their ballistas before firing, carrying their ammunition aloft until it ultimately crashes among our troops. Our first tower crumbles under sustained fire and the chill in the air is noticeably lessened. Our Theatre Commander orders a charge to drive them back before we lose more of our bastions, but our HC1's must wheel closer to be in range and our HC1-E's aren't as plentiful as their ballistas. The charge through the dying jungle is met with a slaughter, and Moskurg's al-Mutriqa leads a counter-charge that sends our men into a route. Along the border the same scene plays out; our stationary towers are brought down from long range, our artillery can't match them, and we are ultimately repelled time and time again.
We are pushed back and our battle lines are reassembled further north.
Our Theatre Commander asks for better artillery. Longer ranges, better accuracy, and more of them. Surely we have the knowledge to craft something like that, right? If not, then we need some other way to change the nature of battle as soundly as Moskurg has when they introduced their ballistas. We are holding onto the barest rim of the jungle, and that is a very tenuous grasp.
Moskurg gains a section of jungle.
The mountains...the mountains are different. With our Minor Towers of Frost the high peaks - already a cold, inhospitable place - drop to an even colder temperature. To our men it must feel like the tangia back home, but to Moskurg troops it must be a frozen hellscape. They sustain multiple casualties as their men struggle to maintain warmth in their cold, stolen castles, but with such poor soil there's hardly any wood for them to burn. They resort to burning their fire ammunition to stay warm as it will remain lit for a long, long time, but the noxious fumes make them sick and a few even die. It's preferable to freezing to death, but they don't have to worry about either. Our cannons roll up and blast their castles apart with ease. Their garrisons are ragged from the cold temperatures and guards favor their warm bunkhouses over their posts. Even with their longer ranged artillery, our men easily steamroll through and mop up what filth still clung to the castle walls. With Myark leading the charge, there's no contest and they are once again forced off the mountaintops and down into the sands far below.
Our Theatre Commander proudly reports he's pushed the Moskurgs out of the mountains once more. He's taken pains to ensure his troops will not once again fall into the trap of complacency that lost us the section of mountaintop before.
Arstotzka gains ground in the Mountains. If they hold it for a year they will gain the resource bonus.
In the western seas we are met with a source of frustration. Our new Fog-O-War, initially designed to match Moskurg speed and out-range their artillery, now simply matches them in both areas. Our heavier ship construction means we can survive more mundane hits, be it rock or javelin, but their fire is nearly impossible to put out. Our men have resorted to hacking off parts of the ship that catch on fire and dumping them overboard, even if it results in a leak. It's the better alternative than burning up. Our cannons are equally effective; the small, dense, shaped cannon shot punches holes through the light, delicate Moskurg ships. Every hit results in a sunk ship, but that's only coming from our limited steam ships. They carry their weight, bringing down many with them, but once they're gone Moskurg has the advantage. It doesn't help that nearly any damage to the steamship inevitably results in it sinking; it sits so low in the water that once it starts to flood it's nearly impossible to stop. Still, they prove their worth today and manage to keep Moskurg from gaining ground, even with their new extreme-range ballistas mounted on every ship. It was an expensive stalemate and we will likely lose ground unless something changes next year.
Our Theatre Commander understands the use of the Fog-O-War. Arstotzkan ships are sturdy by design, and the fact that we can tank hits when they can't is a big boon to our side. If we had an entire fleet of them, the battle would have been over just as quickly as it started. He points out that the Fog-O-War is sturdier, but the fact that they tend to eventually sink after a single hit is a big issue. A ship designed entirely around the steam engine would be far more efficient, and would let us field more cannons aboard her decks too. Their fire is still an issue; perhaps crystal armor could help keep the wood and tar beneath from burning up...?
Neither side gains ground in the Western Sea.
We surprise Moskurg with an assault on the plains.
Our cannons get the drop on their emplacements; after years of quiet the sudden assault leaves their troops scrambling. Our HC1-E's manage to get the drop on their ballistas from behind smoke screens, and within minutes they're mostly all destroyed. Our HC-1's roll up during the barrage to get into range, supporting our heavy calvary as they sweep across the open fields and gain massive ground. Moskurg struggles to mount a counter attack, but their men have grown fat and complacent after so long that their lines are laughable and their artillery support is nonexistent. Our heavy horsemen sweep them from the field, easily closing the distance without enemy artillery to stall them or coherent archer fire to repel them. Our constant shelling from behind thick fog leaves them disorganized, and despite their best efforts we push them back immediately, claiming the wreckage of their border forts.
The battle for the rest of the year is bitter. Their calvary immediately takes up the firebombing doctrine, dropping fire grenades in our camps and being a general nuisance. It's too late for them to make much of a difference, however; our Towers are up and the plains plunge into tagia-like temperatures. Much like the mountains their men freeze to death often and their fighting prowess is hampered. They still have better range than the majority of our artillery, but our initial route was so thorough they have a hard time coming back. We push Moskurg back a section.
Our boats are just as lucky along the east coast; in the west they'd been expecting us, but here in the east we are able to catch them at port. With nowhere to run we are able to get in close and unleash the fury of the cannons on our ships. Their harbor burns and we claim a section of coastline.
Our Theatre Commander points out that the battle was fairly even here. Had Moskurg had a more competent fighting force, they might have fought us to a stalemate. Their Extreme-Range artillery is a problem, as is their incredibly lucky accuracy. He does mention that our calvary did very well here; if they were lighter or faster, we might be able to rush their artillery next year before they can move their lines in to defend them. He also points out that we might wish to take care to guard against that, as Moskurg could just as easily do it to us with their far lighter calvary.
Arstotzka gains ground in the Plains and the Eastern Sea. Moskurg no longer has the resource bonus.
Moskurg has done the unthinkable. They've invaded our homelands.
Their grenadier horsemen continue using their despicable tactics of firebombing and attack our infrastructure. They ride into a nearby village and burn it to the ground, fleeing before we can mount a counter attack to stop the raid. Many civilians are slaughtered, and with no one to attend the crops in the nearby fields our troops will suffer for it. Luckily it doesn't seem like a full-blown assault; they don't bring in their artillery or their infantry.
Their ships sail up the coast, catching our ships by surprise at harbor and sinking many. The harbor closest to the eastern sea is completely razed and Moskurg claims it like the filthy cowards they are. We might have been able to fight them to a stalemate had we expected the attack, but we are caught by surprise and lose a section of coastline. Without complete control of the seas we will be unable to use our fleet to deploy behind enemy lines or bombard offshore, if they invade.
Our Theatre Commander stresses the critical nature of this loss. If we wish to keep our homeland secure, we will need to regain the seas. Simply not controlling them entirely is a huge problem, let alone if the unthinkable happens and Moskurg gains complete control.
Moskurg gains ground in the Northern Sea.
Expense Credit: After some debate (and a careful analysis about the benefits of just seizing his ship) we decide to make amends with T’ung-K’ao. After all, we did endanger his livelihood when we sold him a crate of disappearing axes. To make things up to him we offer a more thorough instruction in the arts of magic. This includes a brief stay at the Academy for some formal magical instruction. We teach him the secrets of Dogwood wands, and his seething fury gives way to childlike wonder as he grows plants with little more than a carved twig. We give him enough dogwood seeds so that he may start his own orchard when he goes back to his homeland, and we train him in how to summon and maintain crystal weaponry. He struggles with this as his magical prowess isn't as potent as one of our full-time wizards, but he can manage a few odd shapes here and there. By the time he and his men are ready to leave we also send along Roboson, our best and brightest designer. We tell him that the Mathemagicians will suffer without his keen knowledge and insight, but that we understand he must go to maintain relations. We reluctantly decline his offer to stay and gently push him on the boat and tell him to write us a postcard. We also send along another crate of crystal axes, only this time we also send along an apprentice to help maintain them. By the time T’ung-K’ao sails out of our harbor he's smiling once more, our earlier scandal seemingly forgotten. Our relationship with the trader has been repaired.
It is 931, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 931 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Behavior Rules. Please Read.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 03, 2017, 10:43:14 pm
1.) Design: HA1
2.) Revision: SO1-AM (Anti-magic shell: Explodes in shrapnel over an anti-magic field, carpeting the area with active anti-magic fragments. Not a focus on damage, but on disabling magic for swaths of enemy lands)
3.) Design: ??? (No idea here, but I like flexibility. I'd very tentatively say living crystal, a new fog-o-war design, or some design to give sight for our hopefully super extreme-range HA1's.)
4.) SO1-AD (Anti-divination shell [Called anti-deity shell when I last wrote it out]: A revision of the SO1-AM, but instead of shrapnel it lands and "sinks" into the ground, where it then "jams" a certain type of magic/their mages' heads. There'll be a new write-up at some point to make it a more fitting SO1-AM revision, or it could be the design and the revision could be left to decide on.)
Why the HA1?
Right now, we have four types of artillery: The HC1, our current long-range mainstay and the only Expensive one. The HC1-E, which we can only deploy ~3 of due to cost and has extreme range + accuracy and is thus extremely useful and would be more useful with less expense. The HC2, which doesn't explode and has a higher firing rate. Just good in general except for the part where it's broken and very expensive. And the HC2-E, which is the accurate and extreme-ranged version of the HC2.
Because we have all these different types already made, we know quite a lot about these improvements. Then we have the SBP1-A Fog-O-War, which utilized the part from the HC2 responsible for the breaking but fixed it - this should allow us to even get bonuses to fixing HC2's problem.
Because consolidating the cannons is so easy and advantageous, we can afford to add other improvements like even further range and a lower expense rating. The further range wouldn't even be completely useless to our lack of sight - it can still be used to assault known enemy fortified areas, castles, etc., and doing this means that if we ever want Super-Extreme-Range artillery, we just make a spell to facilitate spotting for the artillery and bam, there you go. The lower expense rating is obvious. Right now our HC1-E is really good artillery but we can't fully capitalize on it because of the sheer expense.
And oh would ya look at that. GM ninja.
I'm sad that we didn't get the expense credit for being so nice to the merchant, but I have high hopes for it becoming useful later on.
So. We need to fix the sea situation. Luckily, the HA1 solves this! Time to actually submit the design!
Design: HA1 "Onslaught"
Hybrid Artillery 1 "Onslaught"
Development of the HCx series recently grinded to a halt. With every single new idea and concept being implemented leading to failure and requests for the budget to improve things such as expense denied, the lead Mathemagician of the Hybrid Cannon project decided to turn to a new direction. He'd re-invent the Hybrid Cannon. The HC2 was an unfortunate failure, and salvaging it is frankly useless. The HC1 is reliable, but simply won't fare as the battlefield changes. The HC1-E variant has gone as far as it can. Revisions don't last forever, and sometimes you just need to consolidate your improvements into one design and include some breakthroughs.
The HA1 uses the lessons learned from the SBP1-A in fixing the problems inherent to the HC2, along with the advantages of the HCx-E variants. This is all very simple stuff and normally could be left to a revision, but that's not all.
"Cannons" are the way of the past. Using a name the lead Mathemagician heard being discussed nonchalantly in the hallway - "artillery", he has came up with a new series name - the HA. Hbrid Artillery. "Extreme range" was a name given to the capabilities of the HC1-E by awe-struck field commanders, but it doesn't give you a true insight into the capabilities of the HC1-E. Really, the project lead explained, it's best described still as "long range". But this - this new technology - will finally be deserving of the "extreme" label thrown around so carelessly in the past.
The HA1 utilizes the longest barrel we've crafted. Using simple gears, the barrel can be easily rotated like the stubby HC1-E. A larger and improved pressurization compartment combined with the aforementioned longer barrel increases the range of the projectile to true extreme ranges far beyond that of the HCx-E variants. The rate of fire and reliability improvements from the HC2 are also implemented in the design along with the lessons of the SPB1-A (and to a lesser degree, the frost towers) to actually get these improvements to reliably function. The new barrel can even field larger shells that should be able to reliably do more damage to the filthy Moskurgians!
The HA1 utilizes advanced manufacturing techniques to be able to be produced at a rate rivalling the HC1. Standardized equipment used for measures and things such as casting and pouring given to workers significantly reduce the amount of time to craft individual parts. Hiring many laborers and teaching them how to only work at one part of a time then having them work together in a line of assembly greatly reduces cost and the need for individual trained craftsmen. The Project Lead has taken to calling the places where the manufacturing would occur "factories".
Quote from: Chiefwaffles
In short: A consolidation of the HC1-E, HC1, and HC2, with increased range and damage, and an Expensive target. "But Chiefwaffles," some may say, "that sure sounds complicated!"
But does it?
The HC2's design elements were incorporated into the fairly-successful SPB1-A. The HC1-E is perfectly functional, and so is HC1. We have a very sound advantage in the basic consolidating of improvements. Then increased range and damage are all simple things and given our experience with this stuff and the idea of "learning through failures" like the two revisions in a row rolling 1 make those trivial things. The most questionable part is the expense, but with all the other things locked down, expense shouldn't be that big of a deal. (The factory thing is just fluff - there's no automation.) The revision can be used making the CO1-AM I posted a few pages ago to somewhat effectively counter Lucky Strike and other spells.
Quote
Designs
1 - HA1: Chiefwaffles
NINJAEDIT: I would again like to stress the use of the HA1's super-extreme-range as being useful against enemy fortified positions: Harbors, castles, camps, known artillery emplacements, and more. The HA1's would mostly focus on Extreme range but when a viable Super Extreme range target comes up, they'd be of huge use.
Also, Evicted, this can be done in a revision, right?
Revision: SO1-AM "Equalizer"
Simply put, the SO1-AM is more so of a revision of both the anti-magic bomb and the standard HCx shell. It can be used with any current cannon, from the HC1 to the HC2-E (if someone feels like losing that day). Mathemagicians have reviewed the poorly thought-out plans for the archaic anti-magic bomb; a fossil of a more primitive non-cannon way of fighting.
However, before the paperwork was to be burned as is standard for mediocre designs, the lead Mathemagician in the room came up with an idea: To adapt the anti-magic bomb to standard shell regulations and make it useful. The mathemagicians got to work!
After a few days, a preliminary design was laid out:
The center of the shell is hollowed out and filled with a crystal very similar to the anti-magic bomb. However, this crystal is intentionally made more stable and somewhere between a cross between the already-known anti-magic charm and the anti-magic bomb. Upon absorbing a large amount of magical energy once entering the vicinity of a filthy Moskurgian mage, the crystal and the shell will explode, raining crystal shrapnel across the area and hopefully causing some amount of damage. But the damage isn't the point here. The crystal, while unstable enough to explode in its "complete" form, separates into uncountable more stable shards. These shards will disrupt and absorb magic in the vicinity. Individually, one shard isn't going to do much and expires after some period of time unlike the anti-magic charm, but the combined shards coming from the explosion of a shell will carpet an area and make it unusable for those smelly Moskurgians to use Lucky Strike or other cowardly spells.
Special Ordinance - Anti-Magic "Equalizer"
There. A working anti-magic bomb that utilizes the extreme-range and accuracy of our cannons and counters any enemy spell in the affected areas, including lucky strike.
"How is it a revision?", you may ask. The answer is simple: Ultimately, this is a revision of the shell and the anti-magic bomb. It's just making anti-magic bombs into shell form from arrow form and having them leave still-active anti-magic shards.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 03, 2017, 10:49:14 pm
This spell will be highly accurate and fast cast, hit only a small area but be devastatingly cold.
Flash Cast Crystals - This spell summons a small shield of crystal instantly in the air far from the mage. It is made to intercept the enemy bolts before they hit the ground, wasting the shot.
This spell should be fast to cast accurate and far ranged but can be weak and short lived. It only needs to impact the bolts then be disrupted.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 03, 2017, 10:51:26 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 03, 2017, 10:57:16 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on May 03, 2017, 10:58:22 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 03, 2017, 11:00:03 pm
Consider this: rather than proposing two things and immediately adding them to the list of votes, you can propose two things and for either of them to be added to the list you need two people to "second" each one.As per the above,
This prevents the list from inflating with zero and one vote items because you need at least two other people to go "this is a good idea". They don't have to vote for it, they just need to agree that it is a relevant and practical idea.
Design: HA1 "Onslaught"I second the "Onslaught".
Hybrid Artillery 1 "Onslaught"
Development of the HCx series recently grinded to a halt. With every single new idea and concept being implemented leading to failure and requests for the budget to improve things such as expense denied, the lead Mathemagician of the Hybrid Cannon project decided to turn to a new direction. He'd re-invent the Hybrid Cannon. The HC2 was an unfortunate failure, and salvaging it is frankly useless. The HC1 is reliable, but simply won't fare as the battlefield changes. The HC1-E variant has gone as far as it can. Revisions don't last forever, and sometimes you just need to consolidate your improvements into one design and include some breakthroughs.
The HA1 uses the lessons learned from the SBP1-A in fixing the problems inherent to the HC2, along with the advantages of the HCx-E variants. This is all very simple stuff and normally could be left to a revision, but that's not all.
"Cannons" are the way of the past. Using a name the lead Mathemagician heard being discussed nonchalantly in the hallway - "artillery", he has came up with a new series name - the HA. Hbrid Artillery. "Extreme range" was a name given to the capabilities of the HC1-E by awe-struck field commanders, but it doesn't give you a true insight into the capabilities of the HC1-E. Really, the project lead explained, it's best described still as "long range". But this - this new technology - will finally be deserving of the "extreme" label thrown around so carelessly in the past.
The HA1 utilizes the longest barrel we've crafted. Using simple gears, the barrel can be easily rotated like the stubby HC1-E. A larger and improved pressurization compartment combined with the aforementioned longer barrel increases the range of the projectile to true extreme ranges far beyond that of the HCx-E variants. The rate of fire and reliability improvements from the HC2 are also implemented in the design along with the lessons of the SPB1-A (and to a lesser degree, the frost towers) to actually get these improvements to reliably function. The new barrel can even field larger shells that should be able to reliably do more damage to the filthy Moskurgians!
The HA1 utilizes advanced manufacturing techniques to be able to be produced at a rate rivalling the HC1. Standardized equipment used for measures and things such as casting and pouring given to workers significantly reduce the amount of time to craft individual parts. Hiring many laborers and teaching them how to only work at one part of a time then having them work together in a line of assembly greatly reduces cost and the need for individual trained craftsmen. The Project Lead has taken to calling the places where the manufacturing would occur "factories".
Flash Cast Crystals - This spell summons a small shield of crystal instantly in the air far from the mage. It is made to intercept the enemy bolts before they hit the ground, wasting the shot.As well as this.
This spell should be fast to cast accurate and far ranged but can be weak and short lived. It only needs to impact the bolts then be disrupted.
I do have some ideas of my own, however.
~~~
Supreme Predictive Algorithms Machine: This crystal monstrosity is filled with a truly ridonculous level of mathemagics and magic energy. Given good input information, it can effectively predict the actions of our foes in large and small scale, making our theatre commander's job much easier.
Tower of Growth: This new giga-tower projects an amplified version of our Dogwood Wand's effect over an entire theatre. The idea is that it can be applied to turn other areas into jungle which is good for us. No more plains. Also, good luck using artillery if you don't have a clear area to set them down.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 03, 2017, 11:01:11 pm
Simply put, the SO1-AM is more so of a revision of both the anti-magic bomb and the standard HCx shell. It can be used with any current cannon, from the HC1 to the HC2-E (if someone feels like losing that day). Mathemagicians have reviewed the poorly thought-out plans for the archaic anti-magic bomb; a fossil of a more primitive non-cannon way of fighting.
However, before the paperwork was to be burned as is standard for mediocre designs, the lead Mathemagician in the room came up with an idea: To adapt the anti-magic bomb to standard shell regulations and make it useful. The mathemagicians got to work!
After a few days, a preliminary design was laid out:
The center of the shell is hollowed out and filled with a crystal very similar to the anti-magic bomb. However, this crystal is intentionally made more stable and somewhere between a cross between the already-known anti-magic charm and the anti-magic bomb. Upon absorbing a large amount of magical energy once entering the vicinity of a filthy Moskurgian mage, the crystal and the shell will explode, raining crystal shrapnel across the area and hopefully causing some amount of damage. But the damage isn't the point here. The crystal, while unstable enough to explode in its "complete" form, separates into uncountable more stable shards. These shards will disrupt and absorb magic in the vicinity. Individually, one shard isn't going to do much and expires after some period of time unlike the anti-magic charm, but the combined shards coming from the explosion of a shell will carpet an area and make it unusable for those smelly Moskurgians to use Lucky Strike or other cowardly spells.
Special Ordinance - Anti-Magic "Equalizer"
NOTE: This post is missing the priming mechanism. See this post (link) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7443670#msg7443670) for the updated version.
I'm submitting the AM shell instead of a special anti-divination one because this one is simpler to design and having an anti-magic shell is kind of critical at this point. HA1 can be delayed to next turn and HC1-E can be cheapened in a revision this turn.
So, we're losing at sea. We need to stop this, and we know Moskurg will probably be focusing there as well. How do we improve our performance at sea?
1.) The SBP2, a successor to the SBP1 Fog-O-War. This ship would be, as suggested by the theater commander, designed around the steam engine. The boat would fit numerous cannons and would be designed in such a way that even with the steam engine powering it and the cannons loaded it won't sink so soon after a hit.
2.) Again, like the theater commander suggested, crystal armor. I suggested something like this for our platemail before this combat phase. Basically, we could maybe "crystallize" normal material to make it stronger and lighter. Maybe a revision, a separate design, or incorporated into a design for the SBP2.
3.) Cheaper artillery. The HC1-E's work great at sea, but are very limited in deployment. Cheap artillery like a revision to the HC1-E's or the HA1 would be a huge benefit at sea.
Yes, I'm voting twice. It's to keep both options open - if there's a tie or something similar I'll remove one of them by the end of the phase.
Quote
Designs@Void: In case you didn't notice yourself, that suggests we can try the AM shells as a revision, but it's a risky shot. I don't think it's completely out of the question as revising the AM shells into existence but the risks should definitely be considered.
2 - HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
1 - SO1-AM "Equalizer": Chiefwaffles
0 - Freeze Wands:
1 - Flash Cast Crystals: FallacyofUrist
0 - Supreme Predictive Algorithms Machine:
0 - Tower of Growth:
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 03, 2017, 11:09:17 pm
I would be in favor of anything targeting or defending against the enemy weapons that is not trying to anti magic their luck spell.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 03, 2017, 11:21:58 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on May 03, 2017, 11:25:32 pm
Oh yeah, and Evicted, if we improve our steam engines they'll automatically be fitted onto the Fog-O-Wars? Or is the engine too integrated to do that?
So long as the design isn't too different, you can retrofit your fog-o-wars as a free action if you spend the design solely on the steam engine - akin to equipping your army with new armor after designing it.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 03, 2017, 11:46:57 pm
How can the Moskurgians hold the Northern Sea, seeing as we cut them of in both the West and the Eastern Sea. They can not supply their ships.
Oh, and given that they need to use mages for every shot now, their amount of fire did decrease considerably, right?
Post by: evictedSaint on May 03, 2017, 11:54:28 pm
Okay, questions?
How can the Moskurgians hold the Northern Sea, seeing as we cut them of in both the West and the Eastern Sea. They can not supply their ships.
They are cut off. Unless they can push you out of the eastern sea, they will not be able to hold the northern sea.
Oh, and given that they need to use mages for every shot now, their amount of fire did decrease considerably, right?
If you mean for their artillery, no. Each one is manned by a mage, same as yours. The only difference is you now have a surplus of apprentices, so your higher-level wizards can maintain your towers of frost.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 03, 2017, 11:56:59 pm
Quote
The fact that our mages are almost uniformly restricted to this one use is also frustrating, even though they wouldn't do very much otherwise due to Moskurg Anti-Magic
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 03, 2017, 11:59:48 pm
SO, new plan:
THIS PHASE
1.) Design: HA1. This is the best option for both sea + land; we need an advantage over their new long-ranged (HOW) ballistae. Best outcome here is being able to fit HA1's on all our ships.
2a.) Rev: Lighter steam engine. Same power, but lighter. Makes our Fog-O-Wars less delicate. Or...
2b.) Rev: Cheaper Fog-O-Wars. We could field more of them but they're still delicate, which is a problem. Or...
2c.) Rev: Crystal reinforcement. Reinforcing the hull of our ships with crystal. Just straight-up "make crystal armor" is super simple but prone to anti-magic, which could work since last I checked enemy anti-magic is Medium range and hopefully with the HA1 our boats would be fighting at Extreme range. Or we could go with the same idea I used for my Crystal Plate suggestion - "crystallizing" the hull to make it stronger and/or lighter, but not actually crystal so it won't be dispelled.
NEXT PHASE:
3.) Design: Anti-magic/Anti-divination shells. Would eliminate a ton of the enemy advantage at land, but not that useful at sea (If we get a direct cannon hit on an enemy ship they're going down regardless) so I pushed it to up here.
4.) Revision: Probably cheapen something. If the HA1 is Very Expensive, maybe do it here? Alternatively, make the HA2, a version of the HA1 which relies less on magic and thus would free up our apprentices. Maybe do this as a design later, or it may take multiple revisions. Also has the benefit of making our artillery effectively invulnerable to enemy anti-magic.
NEXT NEXT PHASE:
5.) Design: SBP2 - A faster, stronger, and lighter version of the Fog-O-War. Biggest priority is making a large ship capable of housing adequate steam engines and numerous cannons without being super delicate.
Thoughts? Of course, it isn't a concrete thing and it's just my ideal plan, but I think it serves as a good priority list.
Fun fact: If we were to completely armor our Fog-O-Wars in crystal, we'd have the equivalent of Ironclads. Which could historically survive cannon shots of the variety found in the 19th century. They were also very cool.
Post by: Light forger on May 04, 2017, 12:05:52 am
So named for their distinctive noise this conical rounds designed to be fired by both the HC-1 and HC-E and, have a small infused quartz gemstone placed in the back of the round. Once exposed to enough heat(like that of our cannons firing) the gemstone is enchanted to produce a long lasting powerful jet of flame. The jet of flame help to propel the shell granting it significantly increased range. After the shell hits something the gemstone will shatter and release all of it's remaining magical energy in a single blast. This explosion, provided the shell didn't travel too far is more then able to incinerate a man wholesale if he is within a few feet of the round. As added befit the shell with also send burning hot iron fragments everywhere and causing multiple fires or igniting Moskurg's greek fire jars. The gems are made by a mage enchanting a gemstone with a prestored spell(in this cause an extremely modified fire wall spell) and then infusing it with magic roughly equal to a dozen for so casings of fireball.
Ok, quick Q&A about my design choices.
A new cannon would probably work better as a pure artillery piece but, wouldn't open up other design avenues. Doing this gives us the ability to create combat usable prestored magic which is a great boon for us. It also opens up the way for making magical muskets by using a heavy altered version of this gemstone. The extra range should solve a lot of our artillery issues and the fire will make it extremely deadly if it lands next to one of their camps. Their lucky strike is a problem but, I know two things is doesn't matter how 'lucky' your are if your outranged and their mages can't use it while on fire. Also it keeps our revision open should we need to fix anything. On that note here is my early idea for our revision if we go with this and get decent rolls.
Orbeck's Chiller(revision)
So named for the lead mathemagic researcher in it's design this spell is based partly on our mist spell and partly on our frost spells. Usable by nearly anyone with any magical talent this simple spell draws water vapor out of the air to form freezing cold chucks of ice. In the hands of a skilled magic users it can create an area incredible cold able to put out Moskurg's greek fire. As an added befit it can be used not only to chill liquor but, also provide fresh water at sea for our steam cannon and engine to use.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 04, 2017, 01:13:18 am
Quote
Expense Credit: After some debate (and a careful analysis about the benefits of just seizing his ship) we decide to make amends with T’ung-K’ao. After all, we did endanger his livelihood when we sold him a crate of disappearing axes. To make things up to him we offer a more thorough instruction in the arts of magic. This includes a brief stay at the Academy for some formal magical instruction. We teach him the secrets of Dogwood wands, and his seething fury gives way to childlike wonder as he grows plants with little more than a carved twig. We give him enough dogwood seeds so that he may start his own orchard when he goes back to his homeland, and we train him in how to summon and maintain crystal weaponry. He struggles with this as his magical prowess isn't as potent as one of our full-time wizards, but he can manage a few odd shapes here and there. By the time he and his men are ready to leave we also send along Roboson, our best and brightest designer. We tell him that the Mathemagicians will suffer without his keen knowledge and insight, but that we understand he must go to maintain relations. We reluctantly decline his offer to stay and gently push him on the boat and tell him to write us a postcard. We also send along another crate of crystal axes, only this time we also send along an apprentice to help maintain them. By the time T’ung-K’ao sails out of our harbor he's smiling once more, our earlier scandal seemingly forgotten. Our relationship with the trader has been repaired
So, did we get the Expense credit, as planned?
Quote
1.) Design: HA1. This is the best option for both sea + land; we need an advantage over their new long-ranged (HOW) ballistae. Best outcome here is being able to fit HA1's on all our ships.
They cast wind spells on them. I have no idea how they have enough mages to do that.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 04, 2017, 01:24:05 am
I'm also assuming the trader probably went to Moskurg too, though I'm not sure. It's only reasonable balance-wise but if one trader does that all it seems a bit unreasonable. But regardless, if the trader went to Moskurg and they didn't piss him off like we did, could they be getting an expense credit right now?
I do wonder about the Roboson thing, though. I'm assuming Roboson's doing a little side-quest thing via PM with Evicted, but it could be just that we sacrificed Roboson for him to not be pissed. Ideally, we have the chance to actually get exclusive benefits from this whole interaction, but there's a decent chance all it means is that when the trader comes back (which is probably planned) we'll get another chance to actually get an expense credit.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 04, 2017, 01:33:49 am
Quote
esign: HA1 "Onslaught"
Hybrid Artillery 1 "Onslaught"
Development of the HCx series recently grinded to a halt. With every single new idea and concept being implemented leading to failure and requests for the budget to improve things such as expense denied, the lead Mathemagician of the Hybrid Cannon project decided to turn to a new direction. He'd re-invent the Hybrid Cannon. The HC2 was an unfortunate failure, and salvaging it is frankly useless. The HC1 is reliable, but simply won't fare as the battlefield changes. The HC1-E variant has gone as far as it can. Revisions don't last forever, and sometimes you just need to consolidate your improvements into one design and include some breakthroughs.
The HA1 uses the lessons learned from the SBP1-A in fixing the problems inherent to the HC2, along with the advantages of the HCx-E variants. This is all very simple stuff and normally could be left to a revision, but that's not all.
"Cannons" are the way of the past. Using a name the lead Mathemagician heard being discussed nonchalantly in the hallway - "artillery", he has came up with a new series name - the HA. Hbrid Artillery. "Extreme range" was a name given to the capabilities of the HC1-E by awe-struck field commanders, but it doesn't give you a true insight into the capabilities of the HC1-E. Really, the project lead explained, it's best described still as "long range". But this - this new technology - will finally be deserving of the "extreme" label thrown around so carelessly in the past.
The HA1 utilizes the longest barrel we've crafted. Using simple gears, the barrel can be easily rotated like the stubby HC1-E. A larger and improved pressurization compartment combined with the aforementioned longer barrel increases the range of the projectile to true extreme ranges far beyond that of the HCx-E variants. The rate of fire and reliability improvements from the HC2 are also implemented in the design along with the lessons of the SPB1-A (and to a lesser degree, the frost towers) to actually get these improvements to reliably function. The new barrel can even field larger shells that should be able to reliably do more damage to the filthy Moskurgians!
The HA1 utilizes advanced manufacturing techniques to be able to be produced at a rate rivalling the HC1. Standardized equipment used for measures and things such as casting and pouring given to workers significantly reduce the amount of time to craft individual parts. Hiring many laborers and teaching them how to only work at one part of a time then having them work together in a line of assembly greatly reduces cost and the need for individual trained craftsmen. The Project Lead has taken to calling the places where the manufacturing would occur "factories".
I disagree with this design. It has the same general idea as I had, but the wrong priorities. Extra range is not use usefull without a rapid communication means to target the cannons.
Field Artillery "Metal Storm"
This design includes all previous improvements of our previous cannon designs, integrating them into one, efficient design. The steam recycler and auto-cooling barrel are revisited, helping the design to get a vastly increased fire rate and much improved reliability. This will help us enormously at Sea and land, where we will be able to overpower the enemy though volume of fire. A single important improvement is the inclusion of a chain firing mode, allowing 1 apprentice to control multiple cannons simultanously, by casting the spell through all of them.
Oh, and another thing to consider. We want to force the Moskurgians to use as much magic as possible, so as to cause their artillery to fall short of manpower. With what orders can we accomplish that?
Post by: andrea on May 04, 2017, 01:41:55 am
divination jammer to shoot at us so accurately, either they or their spells must divine our position and movement in some way. Since the spell is cast far away, our antimagic can't help. However, what we can do is disturb their signal. This charm, based on our antimagic charms, continuously absorbs ambient magic and reemits it at low power in random frequencies across the magical spectrum. This effect is not enough to disrupt a spell cast nearby, but any attempt to magically determine something will be disrupted, resulting in a loss of accuracy.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 04, 2017, 01:45:57 am
...Actually, decoys (that don't use our mages/troops) wouldn't be a horrible idea. Maybe we could make a design in the future for "mist form" - using mist to replicate the look of a human being? Would help in skirmish and in distracting enemy units at all stages - ranged, melee, routing, and more.
And Ebbor, the idea behind the extra range is twofold:
1.) Future-proofing: Doing it now in a design means that all we have to do in the future to actually improve range is make a sighting spell/communication method. This is the main focus. Otherwise, we have to spend at least 2 revisions or a design and a revision to increase range.
2.) Fortified Positions: Enemy castles, towns, harbors, and to a lesser degree, artillery emplacements, can all be shelled at extreme-long range since they don't tend to move and their positions could conceivably be communicated to the artillery before something about that target changes. If they have a castle, town, or harbor, all we need to do is note the position once, then begin shelling at super-extreme ranges.
The range isn't the actual priority, but given the difficulty of everything else I think it's overall beneficial to do so. It's not a huge deal, but I still want Arstotzka to be the first to have reliable super-extreme range and not have to focus more actions on doing it when we can just do it now.
And just to be clear, the only different between Metal Storm and Onslaught is that Onslaught has a planned longer range, right?
-----
Andrea does have a point, though.
I think the biggest priority is holding the mountains and advancing at sea. If we can make a design that accomplishes that, a new artillery design can be delayed to next round and be much easier with the metal back. I guess we could do the SO1-AM or SO1-AD variants now? The problem there though is that they don't really help at sea, but we could use our revision to make our boats lighter/armored/etc.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 04, 2017, 01:55:06 am
Things we know
Quote
Wizards: The game assumes that your nation can field a large number of apprentices, a handful of skilled wizards (the survivors) and a select few masters. An apprentice can fire off several normal spells and maybe one expensive spell in a fight, skilled wizards might pull off a single very expensive spell and only a master could hope to reliably pull off a National Effort. At the start of the game, it is assumed that you can put out one wizard (probably an apprentice) per five squads, so spells will take effect accordingly. Depending on wizard training, that amount could increase or decrease.
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Please forgive me, I'm just going off of the game mechanics I was given. From what I can tell, Apprentices can only use Cheap spells, and Wizards use Expensive and Very Expensive. Furthermore, they were only being used in skirmishes - I thought giving them Expensive spells after a month or two in the academy might be too powerful, so I allowed them to be used in melee's as well
So, assuming Moskurg does not have an equivalent to our Academy, the only mages that can aid their artillery are their experienced and master mages. They have only 1 Master Wizard (Al-mutton) and just a handfull of experienced mages.
Those experienced mages will also be responsible for all their anti-magic, all their wind spells, all their mindreading, and so on.
So, hence my proposed order.
Remind our anti-mage forces that they are anti-mage forces. Use them as a quick flanking force to attack enemy artillery. They're to harras the enemy with fireballs (cheap, so our apprentices can do it while they need a real wizard to counter), anti-magic arrows(prepared, while they need a wizard to counter) and while carrying weapons painted to look like crystal from a distance (our cost : nothing, theirs : experienced mages)
Even if my assumptions are incorrect, this should still damage their forces severely. Because fireballs +stored fire = death
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 04, 2017, 01:56:55 am
Quote
And just to be clear, the only different between Metal Storm and Onslaught is that Onslaught has a planned longer range, right?
No, Metal Storm aims at rapid fire rate instead of extra range.
Edit : Whoops, you also included extra fire rate.
I added my chain firing mode, allowing us to yse more cannons per apprentice.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 04, 2017, 01:59:02 am
And regarding the order: I'd +1 it, but you should probably repost it after the Revision phase.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 04, 2017, 02:33:07 am
That is why I wanted the frost wands to directly counter their fire.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 04, 2017, 02:38:48 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 04, 2017, 02:46:33 am
Post by: RAM on May 04, 2017, 02:47:10 am
We use the wondrous technology 'slab of wood'(tm) to spate our cannons and towers and provide cover for their attendants and may even have some spares to fortify our more important encampments... Wizards should not be required to expose themselves at all, as they are basically causing the things to operate, rather than aiming them... Oh, but, bother oh bother, wood burns, doesn't it?
...
Hrmmm, what to do, what to do... If only we had some sort of wood, that didn't burn... Well, crystals don't burn, and we can mess around with trees a bit, and we know all about crystals so... Let's try to build a tree with wood that is like our crystals!
Time passes...
Oh, wonderful, you made trees that EXPLODE!!! So they take more energy to grow and when fire hits them there is an explosion, that is just wonderful...
Huh, you know, this explosion is pretty small, it is not like the whole thing explodes, just the bit that would be burned... It actually pushes the fire away... I think this might actually work!
The new Crystalwood tree contains complex cell-walls that are formed partially from crystals. This makes them a little more brittle, considerably harder, and also turns them into reactive armour due to the higher energy-density of crystalline forms.
Living Crystal Charms
While referred to, and appearing as, charms, this is not actually derived from antimagic charms.
By imbuing the "spark of life" found in our conjured fire-wasps instead into a crystal we have granted the crystal the ability to react to stimuli.
By combining it with a gem(A ruby, ideally, over the heart, though other red gems also work if you don't mind a risk of cracking under stress.), mages are able to recharge it, and imbue it with reserve energy.
By imbuing it with a variant of channelled fog, it can continuously resummon an extremely fine, effectively invisible, cloud of minute crystal particles. These particles only last a moment before fading and being resummoned, as any more would have an immense magic cost, but it can transmit its "will" through this cloud and sense any movement or magic within the cloud.
Being crystalline in nature, the charm's "life" is only partially physical, as it lacks the moving parts required for conventional life, it needed to be a living entity that exists partially as a "pure" expression of magic. This grants it some measure of magical awareness that can be matched only by the most sophisticated of our gem arrays back at the lab, and can thus react to them much faster than anything we could hope to match using current techniques.
Finally, the crystal charm effectively exists in two forms. The first form, is an unassuming necklace with a crystal growth around a red gem. The second form is that of a crystal shell, of a thinckness that defaults to five centimetres, that completely coats the wearer while perfectly contouring to their body, actually suspending their clothing and equipment within its structure to completely encase the subject. We had some, unfortunate incidents... with the prototype, but have included strict protocols to prevent it lasting more than 20 seconds in this latter form.
The basic functionality is to encase the wearer in a nearly invulnerable shell of crystal as soon as imminent injury to the wearer is detected. We have done what we could to keep our first experience in living crystals from being too eagre or shy in this duty, but... well, we are hopeful that it will properly defend against anything lethal or crippling and disable itself promptly to conserve power when the threat has passed.
The advanced functionality is to have the charm respond dynamically to threats. A single centimetre of crystal shell is far more than enough to deflect any arrow, but we worry that the enemy could expand their project and something even greater than the absurd five-centimetres projected for the production model would stop, and we have not tested it against a point-blank fireball or cannon round... So we hope that it will use its "mind" to determine what is required and protect accordingly, but should stick to the default if it doesn't know.
The metamagic effect is that it is a wilful being with a significant awareness of magic and a reserve of magical power, it can "fight" magical attacks to its own being, and in doing so, defeat the enemy effects to disable its magic. We have tried training them against antimagic charms, which obviously do not dispel the crystal construct but have been noted to often "blind" them and inhibit their transition into a shell. We don't know how similar this is to enemy antimagic, but we hop to question some of these magical beings after they have had first-hand experience of the enemy's effect, assuming that they survive or can be regenerated from the original gem after being dissipated... This is all conjecture, but the "living spell" project has shown great promise as a theory of countering the enemy antispellcraft.
The projected performance is to persist 20 seconds of shell form or two hours in charm form. Or 10 seconds in shell form AND 1 hour in charm form. Or some other combination following that ratio. On a wizard the power can be restored with focus and will, allowing it to remain indefinitely so long as the wizard takes regular breaks from their other duties...
And thus we have something that will make our wizards extremely uncomfortable in order to make them continue living. It isn't anchored though, and crystals are light, so it is less likely to break than a steel fortress of the same thickness, but a particularly forceful blow could injure or kill them by accelerating them quickly... Also, lightning is fast, so it may not stop lightning until it learns what the buildup of charge means, so people should be encouraged to loot these from the dead, as they can learn andthe same thing ought not to work"lightning doesn't strike twice"...
Quote
Designs
2 - HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
1 - SO1-AM "Equalizer": Chiefwaffles
1 - Freeze Wands: RAM
1 - Flash Cast Crystals: FallacyofUrist
0 - Supreme Predictive Algorithms Machine:
0 - Tower of Growth:
0 - (RAM)Living Crystal Charms:
0 - (RAM)Wooden Planks:
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 04, 2017, 02:52:07 am
Design: Wooden planks.
We use the wondrous technology 'slab of wood'(tm) to spate our cannons and towers and provide cover for their attendants and may even have some spares to fortify our more important encampments... Wizards should not be required to expose themselves at all, as they are basically causing the things to operate, rather than aiming them... Oh, but, bother oh bother, wood burns, doesn't it?
...
Hrmmm, what to do, what to do... If only we had some sort of wood, that didn't burn... Well, crystals don't burn, and we can mess around with trees a bit, and we know all about crystals so... Let's try to build a tree with wood that is like our crystals!
Time passes...
Oh, wonderful, you made trees that EXPLODE!!! So they take more energy to grow and when fire hits them there is an explosion, that is just wonderful...
Huh, you know, this explosion is pretty small, it is not like the whole thing explodes, just the bit that would be burned... It actually pushes the fire away... I think this might actually work!
The new Crystalwood tree contains complex cell-walls that are formed partially from crystals. This makes them a little more brittle, considerably harder, and also turns them into reactive armour due to the higher energy-density of crystalline forms.Living Crystal Charms
While referred to, and appearing as, charms, this is not actually derived from antimagic charms.
By imbuing the "spark of life" found in our conjured fire-wasps instead into a crystal we have granted the crystal the ability to react to stimuli.
By combining it with a gem(A ruby, ideally, over the heart, though other red gems also work if you don't mind a risk of cracking under stress.), mages are able to recharge it, and imbue it with reserve energy.
By imbuing it with a variant of channelled fog, it can continuously resummon an extremely fine, effectively invisible, cloud of minute crystal particles. These particles only last a moment before fading and being resummoned, as any more would have an immense magic cost, but it can transmit its "will" through this cloud and sense any movement or magic within the cloud.
Being crystalline in nature, the charm's "life" is only partially physical, as it lacks the moving parts required for conventional life, it needed to be a living entity that exists partially as a "pure" expression of magic. This grants it some measure of magical awareness that can be matched only by the most sophisticated of our gem arrays back at the lab, and can thus react to them much faster than anything we could hope to match using current techniques.
Finally, the crystal charm effectively exists in two forms. The first form, is an unassuming necklace with a crystal growth around a red gem. The second form is that of a crystal shell, of a thinckness that defaults to five centimetres, that completely coats the wearer while perfectly contouring to their body, actually suspending their clothing and equipment within its structure to completely encase the subject. We had some, unfortunate incidents... with the prototype, but have included strict protocols to prevent it lasting more than 20 seconds in this latter form.
The basic functionality is to encase the wearer in a nearly invulnerable shell of crystal as soon as imminent injury to the wearer is detected. We have done what we could to keep our first experience in living crystals from being too eagre or shy in this duty, but... well, we are hopeful that it will properly defend against anything lethal or crippling and disable itself promptly to conserve power when the threat has passed.
The advanced functionality is to have the charm respond dynamically to threats. A single centimetre of crystal shell is far more than enough to deflect any arrow, but we worry that the enemy could expand their project and something even greater than the absurd five-centimetres projected for the production model would stop, and we have not tested it against a point-blank fireball or cannon round... So we hope that it will use its "mind" to determine what is required and protect accordingly, but should stick to the default if it doesn't know.
The metamagic effect is that it is a wilful being with a significant awareness of magic and a reserve of magical power, it can "fight" magical attacks to its own being, and in doing so, defeat the enemy effects to disable its magic. We have tried training them against antimagic charms, which obviously do not dispel the crystal construct but have been noted to often "blind" them and inhibit their transition into a shell. We don't know how similar this is to enemy antimagic, but we hop to question some of these magical beings after they have had first-hand experience of the enemy's effect, assuming that they survive or can be regenerated from the original gem after being dissipated... This is all conjecture, but the "living spell" project has shown great promise as a theory of countering the enemy antispellcraft.
The projected performance is to persist 20 seconds of shell form or two hours in charm form. Or 10 seconds in shell form AND 1 hour in charm form. Or some other combination following that ratio. On a wizard the power can be restored with focus and will, allowing it to remain indefinitely so long as the wizard takes regular breaks from their other duties...
And thus we have something that will make our wizards extremely uncomfortable in order to make them continue living. It isn't anchored though, and crystals are light, so it is less likely to break than a steel fortress of the same thickness, but a particularly forceful blow could injure or kill them by accelerating them quickly... Also, lightning is fast, so it may not stop lightning until it learns what the buildup of charge means, so people should be encouraged to loot these from the dead, as they can learn andthe same thing ought not to work"lightning doesn't strike twice"...QuoteDesigns
2 - HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
1 - SO1-AM "Equalizer": Chiefwaffles
1 - Freeze Wands: RAM
1 - Flash Cast Crystals: FallacyofUrist
0 - Supreme Predictive Algorithms Machine:
0 - Tower of Growth:
0 - (RAM)Living Crystal Charms:
0 - (RAM)Wooden Planks:
The have fire.
Fire beats Wood.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 04, 2017, 02:54:27 am
Quote
Designs
2 - HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
1 - SO1-AM "Equalizer": Chiefwaffles
1 - FA1 "Metal Storm" : 10ebbor10
1 - Freeze Wands: RAM
1 - Flash Cast Crystals: FallacyofUrist
0 - Supreme Predictive Algorithms Machine:
0 - Tower of Growth:
0 - (RAM)Living Crystal Charms:
0 - (RAM)Wooden Planks:
I think lucky strike is a bigger problem than fire. It's why they're so accurate with the fire shots and everything else. Anti-magic shells could significantly help counter it.
Anti-magic shells would render their entire force useless, I think. Ballistae loose range and accuracy, ships loose propulsion,...
Post by: andrea on May 04, 2017, 02:54:57 am
I might vote for the antimagic shell, although still unsure. Do we have any information if they can now cast within their own antimagic field? if we force them to up their antimagic everywhere, we might negate their magic entirely.
Post by: Roboson on May 04, 2017, 02:57:46 am
I really want to get an anti-divination jammer going on this turn. I don't care how, but its beyond necessary. For far to long the enemy has had inexplicable and uncounterable magic, its time to hit it at the source. Chief put out a really decent write-up for one a ways back, and I think its probably our best bet at forcing them to stop ripping off our "kill them with fire" thing. WE are the original "kill them with fire" nation and we need to show them that if they mess with our stuff, we'll mess with theirs.
Gentlemen (and ladies if there are any here), we are in an arms race. Not only that, but we're in an arms race within that arms race. This extremely long range arms race must end. We must stop their lucky strike and detect ambush spells. The enemy has gotten fat and complacent on their original spells. Never once have we ambushed them in the depths of the jungle. Never once have their arrows and their ballistas failed to hit their marks. Never once have they had to fear, had to doubt. They know where we are and they know how to hit us. We have to stop this. Its as simple as that.
So here is my version of the anti-divination shell largely based on CheifWaffle's design.
Heretic Shells
Spoiler: Heretic Shells Fluff (click to show/hide)
Heretic shells are new more durable artillery ammunition outfitted with an anti-divination crystal array composed of two interlocking crystals. The first crystal is very similar to our magic charms in that it absorbs nearby magic. It is much more durable than our previous iterations, allowing it to absorb more magic without overheating or exploding, partially due to the second crystal. The second crystal acts as a pressure valve, constantly releasing a steady field of anti-divination magic. As there is no physical effect, such as fire or wind, or ice, sustaining this field takes very little energy. As a result, the shells, which are charged by our
Wow,
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 04, 2017, 03:00:30 am
you missed my divination jammer proposal. it was serious.
I might vote for the antimagic shell, although still unsure. Do we have any information if they can now cast within their own antimagic field? if we force them to up their antimagic everywhere, we might negate their magic entirely.
We have never seen them do it, but most of their spells aren't exactly visible.
On the other hand, they have anti-arrow spells, which I think we would have noticed.
So maybe they do, maybe they don't.
Post by: RAM on May 04, 2017, 03:17:16 am
you missed my divination jammer proposal. it was serious.Argh, So sorry, I hate it when my designs are omitted!
If you look closely, this is reactive armour. The wood does not burn, it explodes. It explodes, but only the parts which would be contact-burned anyway, and they repel further burning. Some things are basically impossible to burn, this would be one of them, it is just impossible to get a self-sustaining combustion reaction going in it. Fire beats anything if you have enough of it, but I would like some revenge for their electricity beating our faraday cages, and using wood to defeat their fire seems like just the ticket. And it is advancing our plant-magic while drawing on our crystal experience. It'd give us something to plant in orchards at the home-front and better trees to grow around our long-term camps. But being high0energy I imagine they require more energy to grow than conventional trees...Design: Wooden planks.
The have fire.
Fire beats Wood.
Quote
Designs
2 - HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
1 - SO1-AM "Equalizer": Chiefwaffles
1 - FA1 "Metal Storm" : 10ebbor10
1 - Freeze Wands: RAM
1 - Flash Cast Crystals: FallacyofUrist
0 - Supreme Predictive Algorithms Machine:
0 - Tower of Growth:
0 - (RAM)Living Crystal Charms:
0 - (RAM)Wooden Planks:
0 - Flameshrieker Shells:
0 - divination jammer:
0 - Heretic Shells:
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 04, 2017, 03:22:25 am
I think the HA1 Onslaught (or Metal Storm) is the second-best choice. If we don't do it this phase we should do it next. ALSO, I think capturing the seas is a huge priority.
I'll post my thoughts regarding revisions when the time comes. Essentially, while it'd be nice, I think we shouldn't necessarily reduce the expense of the HC1-E's as that's covered by my and Ebbor's artillery designs. It could help since it'd make the expense portion of the designs easier, but ehh. Meanwhile, were close to bday losing at sea so we should focus there in revisions.
And yes, I haven't removed my HA1 vote. If it's a tie between the HA1 and Heretic shell, remove my vote for the HA1.
I'm also assuming Void's voting for Heretic shells.
Quote
DesignsAlso we should still include "SO1-AD" as a prefix to the Heretic shell's main name.
2 - HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
2 - Heretic shell: VoidSlayer, Chiefwaffles
1 - SO1-AM "Equalizer": Chiefwaffles
1 - FA1 "Metal Storm" : 10ebbor10
1 - Freeze Wands: RAM
1 - Flash Cast Crystals: FallacyofUrist
0 - Supreme Predictive Algorithms Machine:
0 - Tower of Growth:
0 - (RAM)Living Crystal Charms:
0 - (RAM)Wooden Planks:
0 - Flameshrieker Shells:
0 - Divination Jammer:
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 04, 2017, 03:29:04 am
Gonna +1 Heretic shells. Though Void, mind including the delivery method of the shells in the design? I'm assuming they're using using the same method of the SO1-AD variant - hitting the ground and remaining intact, causing it to be (half-)buried while doing its job.
I think the HA1 Onslaught (or Metal Storm) is the second-best choice. If we don't do it this phase we should do it next. ALSO, I think capturing the seas is a huge priority.
I'll post my thoughts regarding revisions when the time comes. Essentially, while it'd be nice, I think we shouldn't necessarily reduce the expense of the HC1-E's as that's covered by my and Ebbor's artillery designs. It could help since it'd make the expense portion of the designs easier, but ehh. Meanwhile, were close to bday losing at sea so we should focus there in revisions.
And yes, I haven't removed my HA1 vote. If it's a tie between the HA1 and Heretic shell, remove my vote for the HA1.
I'm also assuming Void's voting for Heretic shells.QuoteDesignsAlso we should still include "SO1-AD" as a prefix to the Heretic shell's main name.
2 - HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
2 - Heretic shell: VoidSlayer, Chiefwaffles
1 - SO1-AM "Equalizer": Chiefwaffles
1 - FA1 "Metal Storm" : 10ebbor10
1 - Freeze Wands: RAM
1 - Flash Cast Crystals: FallacyofUrist
0 - Supreme Predictive Algorithms Machine:
0 - Tower of Growth:
0 - (RAM)Living Crystal Charms:
0 - (RAM)Wooden Planks:
0 - Flameshrieker Shells:
0 - Divination Jammer:
Uhhhh, the shells are not my design? I designed freeze wands.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 04, 2017, 03:30:51 am
Post by: andrea on May 04, 2017, 03:33:37 am
If we want to go specific against divination, I think a better idea would be to protect the end point of the spell, or using the already existing stuff to block the casting point.
Also, I'll point out again that divination magic is not the same as divine magic. ( this was just for the "gods what have we done" part of the backstory)
I would rather vote for a standard antimagic shell than an antimagic shell which only targets a specific school of magic.Besides, if they now use spells to augment ballistas, we can disrupt that as well.
Quote
Designs
2 - HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
2 - Heretic shell: Robson, Chiefwaffles
2 - SO1-AM "Equalizer": Chiefwaffles, Andrea
1 - FA1 "Metal Storm" : 10ebbor10
1 - Freeze Wands: RAM
1 - Flash Cast Crystals: FallacyofUrist
1 - Divination Jammer: Andrea
0 - Supreme Predictive Algorithms Machine:
0 - Tower of Growth:
0 - (RAM)Living Crystal Charms:
0 - (RAM)Wooden Planks:
0 - Flameshrieker Shells:
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 04, 2017, 03:37:59 am
Quote
WHat is the point of a shell which disrupt only casting of divination? we have crystals which stop ALL castings.
You can't shoot spells that stop all casting, because our cannons are magic.
But yeah, a general anti magic shell would be nice.
Post by: andrea on May 04, 2017, 03:45:39 am
Although we really really need to write in an exception/backdoor to our antimagic.
Post by: RAM on May 04, 2017, 03:57:38 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Oh, and as much as I would love to upgrade our cavalry, the plains seems to only be important to the extent that it makes their invasion difficult. So long as we press in the seas it shouldn't be important... So it is really nice that the enemy get to do a cavalry revision to beat us there if they want, but I don't think that it is important, and hope that breaking their hold on the sea will allow use to hold the line...
Post by: andrea on May 04, 2017, 04:27:15 am
Post by: RAM on May 04, 2017, 04:50:33 am
Post by: Andres on May 04, 2017, 05:09:28 am
Quote
Designs
2 - HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
2 - Heretic shell: Robson, Chiefwaffles
2 - SO1-AM "Equalizer": Chiefwaffles, Andrea
1 - FA1 "Metal Storm" : 10ebbor10
1 - Freeze Wands: RAM
1 - Flash Cast Crystals: FallacyofUrist
1 - Divination Jammer: Andrea
1 - AS-HC2-E: Andres
This design is a lot simpler than the other artillery design suggestions and is thus more likely to succeed. It fixes the cost issue and removes the apprentice bottleneck, allowing us to make them even cheaper at a later date and allows our apprentices to go back to the front lines.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: andrea on May 04, 2017, 05:12:05 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 04, 2017, 05:15:25 am
No more complex than the others, in any case.
Quote
Designs
2 - HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
2 - Heretic shell: Robson, Chiefwaffles
2 - SO1-AM "Equalizer": Chiefwaffles, Andrea
1 - FA1 "Metal Storm" : 10ebbor10
1 - Freeze Wands: RAM
1 - Flash Cast Crystals: FallacyofUrist
1 - Divination Jammer: Andrea
1 - AS-HC2-E. Andres, 10ebbor10
Post by: Andres on May 04, 2017, 05:29:39 am
The cost issue seems to be with complex manufacturing, not the need for wizards, and we have no shortage of apprentices, except for the fact that they die from moskurg bolts.The fix which I made sure to include in the design solves the complex manufacturing. The reports did seem to imply that the drain on apprentices was being felt, even though it wasn't too bad.
The real reason why we want to divorce the need for apprentices from this kind of technology is to, later on, allow it to be used by our regular troops. Imagine equipping every soldier with a miniature version of these cannons. It would once more make our infantry relevant and completely obsolete theirs.
By also removing the need for apprentices, the bottleneck on rate of fire is restrained by mechanism rather than by the cooldown of the spell, allowing for greatly increased rate of fire with a sufficiently good mechanism. (And we're Arstotzkans, so of course we'll develop a sufficiently good mechanism in time.)
It's not that much simpler. Stored magic is not thst simple, after all.We have a bonus to doing crystal research and it's PSF. PSF is our cheapest spell, it is the spell whose tech tree we have studied the most, and it's a spell we understand inside and out. The stored spell is also the only advancement we'd be making.
Glory to Arstotzka.
EDIT: The stored spell is also the key to getting explosive projectiles.
EDIT2:
Quote
Designs
2 - HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
2 - Heretic shell: Robson, Chiefwaffles
2 - SO1-AM "Equalizer": Chiefwaffles, Andrea
1 - FA1 "Metal Storm" : 10ebbor10
1 - Freeze Wands: RAM
1 - Flash Cast Crystals: FallacyofUrist
1 - Divination Jammer: Andrea
2 - AS-HC2-E: Andres, 10ebbor10
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on May 04, 2017, 07:49:18 am
Quote
Designs
2 - HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
2 - Heretic shell: Robson, Chiefwaffles
2 - SO1-AM "Equalizer": Chiefwaffles, Andrea
1 - FA1 "Metal Storm" : 10ebbor10
1 - Freeze Wands: RAM
1 - Flash Cast Crystals: FallacyofUrist
1 - Divination Jammer: Andrea
3 - AS-HC2-E: Andres, 10ebbor10, Stabby
Post by: Azzuro on May 04, 2017, 08:18:13 am
-Moskurg is playing the range game with wind magic.
-How did the Moskurgs shoot down all our Minor Towers? So revising it did nothing to help? It was specifically stated in the revision that they act as bastions of defence.
-Although I will concede that Operation Let It Go did win us back the mountains completely, but we were winning there as of the previous turn anyway.
-I don't understand the Western Sea commander. The Fog-O-War was designed around the steam engine, otherwise we would have used a revision to retrofit it onto our existing longboats.
-Good to see that the surprise bonus works both ways. And I would recommend the Plains commander read the Charge of the Light Brigade, except it hasn't been written yet.
-How is Moskurg able to raid with only cavalry, and what damage did they do? Is this a new strategy, and why weren't we able to order raids before?
-I expected that we wouldn't get the credit, but it's still sad. Come back bro we promise there's no fine print this time!
Ok, so the main issue this turn is Moskurg's new extreme-range ballistae. And the Moskurgtov Cocktails, but that's only for ambush phase. Now a lot of artillery designs to match them have been proposed, so I'm not going to make another. Instead,
Design: Nature's Eye
In the course of their duties, some Dogwood Mages have reported a sense of being at one with nature. The Nature's Eye charm, also carved from dogwood, is our way of harnessing these otherwise-useless sentiments, turning it toward Arstotzka's first foray into what could be called scrying. Rather than growing plants, nature magic is instead used to sense through them, whether it's a Moskurg infantryman blundering through the undergrowth when creeping up on us or a Moskurg ballista crew trampling the grass when setting up their weapon. A team of scouts bearing these charms will have greatly enhanced situational awareness and sneakiness, allowing them to better scout out Moskurg artillery emplacements and report their locations back to our cannons hidden in the fog.
So this design works off our existing nature magic, thus it's not a completely new field, and it'll allow us to approach the range race from a different direction, also countering Lucky Strike because they can't see us if we're using sniper-spotter tactics. While I like the artillery designs, I feel that we'll be much better off making them next turn, when we have the mountains mineral bonus back.
Quote
Designs
2 - HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
2 - Heretic shell: Robson, Chiefwaffles
2 - SO1-AM "Equalizer": Chiefwaffles, Andrea
1 - FA1 "Metal Storm" : 10ebbor10
1 - Freeze Wands: RAM
1 - Flash Cast Crystals: FallacyofUrist
1 - Divination Jammer: Andrea
3 - AS-HC2-E: Andres, 10ebbor10, Stabby
1 - Nature's Eye: Azzuro
Post by: Andres on May 04, 2017, 08:37:49 am
-How did the Moskurgs shoot down all our Minor Towers? So revising it did nothing to help? It was specifically stated in the revision that they act as bastions of defence.-They shot them down by advancing until they reached them. Revising them made it take longer than it would have and allowed us to always have the frost effects in play as we just kept building them (further and further back in our lines) as they destroyed them.
-Although I will concede that Operation Let It Go did win us back the mountains completely, but we were winning there as of the previous turn anyway.
-We had a small advantage, but it probably would've been several turns before we took the Mountains at the pace we were going.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 04, 2017, 09:01:59 am
Quote
also countering Lucky Strike because they can't see us if we're using sniper-spotter tactics
Lucky Strike does not require vision to work, it happily cut even through magical fog.
That said, improved ambush tactics could work enormously well against the Moskurgians. Their artillery weak to sabotage. If you attack an Arztotskan cannon, the worst you can do is dent the barrel. Attack a Moskurgian ballista, and their oil reserve will set their entire camp ablaze.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 04, 2017, 09:15:56 am
Solitude class Battleship
A cooperation of mages working on the naval frost tower project, and mages working on dealing with the Moskurgian flame attacks. The Solitude class battleship dwarfs our current ships, even the steam vessels. At it's heart is a frost tower, emanating a powerfull field of cold. It's hull is several meters thick, made of a mixture of solid ice and wooddust. A moskurgian fire projectile can happily crash into it without penetration. For propulsion it relies on several steam engines, which also power it's offensive armamdnt.
Probsbly too expensive for now.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 04, 2017, 09:53:46 am
Post by: Andres on May 04, 2017, 10:02:05 am
Solitude class BattleshipCrystal plating, as the theatre commander suggested, is probably a better idea. Provides more protection and is physically feasible. Crystalclads are the future.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: andrea on May 04, 2017, 10:08:15 am
@waffles: why the heretic shells? as described, they seem to have the same performance as antimagic shells, except they are restricted to only one of the spells they can cast.
Post by: Azzuro on May 04, 2017, 10:09:55 am
Quotealso countering Lucky Strike because they can't see us if we're using sniper-spotter tactics
Lucky Strike does not require vision to work, it happily cut even through magical fog.
Is this stated anywhere? I can't find it.
Solitude class BattleshipCrystal plating, as the theatre commander suggested, is probably a better idea. Provides more protection and is physically feasible. Crystalclads are the future.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Yeah, I like crystalclads too, as we're out of range of antimagic on the seas anyway. Maybe next turn's revision?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 04, 2017, 10:10:11 am
Bigger ship to fit enough steam engines and multiple weapons on board without essentially sacrificing integrity. Crystal reinforcement makes fire ineffective on it and generally improves its integrity. Something to be feared. We could stick with that for a while once we get it to expensive.
Then we could maybe design a crystalclad. Crystal is pretty light, but completely covering it in thick crystal playing would still be heavy and require multiple enhancements in steam engines. Hence why steam engine revisions like the one I'm proposing for revisions (lighter steam engine) are a good idea.
@Andrea: I suppose. The idea is that specialization both makes it so it doesn't affect us and is more effective at what it does, but I see the point in both sides. I'm posting a new version (same name and same everything except for priming mechanism) with the priming mechanism soon.
Post by: andrea on May 04, 2017, 10:13:27 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 04, 2017, 10:14:47 am
Quotealso countering Lucky Strike because they can't see us if we're using sniper-spotter tactics
Lucky Strike does not require vision to work, it happily cut even through magical fog.
Is this stated anywhere? I can't find it.
It was one of the early battle reports.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 04, 2017, 10:30:56 am
Simply put, the SO1-AM is more so of a revision of both the anti-magic bomb and the standard HCx shell. It can be used with any current cannon, from the HC1 to the HC2-E (if someone feels like losing that day). Mathemagicians have reviewed the poorly thought-out plans for the archaic anti-magic bomb; a fossil of a more primitive non-cannon way of fighting.
However, before the paperwork was to be burned as is standard for mediocre designs, the lead Mathemagician in the room came up with an idea: To adapt the anti-magic bomb to standard shell regulations and make it useful. The mathemagicians got to work!
After a few days, a preliminary design was laid out:
The center of the shell is hollowed out and filled with a crystal very similar to the anti-magic bomb. However, this crystal is intentionally made more stable and somewhere between a cross between the already-known anti-magic charm and the anti-magic bomb. Upon absorbing a large amount of magical energy once entering the vicinity of a filthy Moskurgian mage, the crystal and the shell will explode, raining crystal shrapnel across the area and hopefully causing some amount of damage. But the damage isn't the point here. The crystal, while unstable enough to explode in its "complete" form, separates into uncountable more stable shards. These shards will disrupt and absorb magic in the vicinity. Individually, one shard isn't going to do much and expires after some period of time unlike the anti-magic charm, but the combined shards coming from the explosion of a shell will carpet an area and make it unusable for those smelly Moskurgians to use Lucky Strike or other cowardly spells.
In order to prevent the shell from detonating in our possessions or disrupting our magics such as the cannons themselves, the crystal in the shell is inert. Large amounts of sudden heat and energy such as the firing of the shell will change the structure of the crystal to the point where it becomes active again. This is possible thanks to precise mathemagics being used to tweak the spells and methods used in the anti-magic crystal, allowing for it to have this inert structure until fire. When fired, the shell will become active and start accomplishing its intended purpose away from our troops.
This is the new design. Only thing that changed is the added priming mechanism. The SO1-AM in the design vote box will be referring to this version now and I'm editing a mention of this update in the last design post.
Also, we really need a tiebreaker. I can remove my votes for other things (SO1-AM now takes priority for me) but deciding by just my vote is kind of bad.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 04, 2017, 10:36:57 am
Post by: Roboson on May 04, 2017, 02:07:43 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 04, 2017, 02:47:51 pm
Quote
Designs
2 - HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
2 - Heretic shell: Robson, Chiefwaffles
4 - SO1-AM "Equalizer": Chiefwaffles, Andrea, 10ebbor10, Roboson
1 - FA1 "Metal Storm" : 10ebbor10
1 - Freeze Wands: RAM
1 - Flash Cast Crystals: FallacyofUrist
1 - Divination Jammer: Andrea
3 - AS-HC2-E: Andres, 10ebbor10, Stabby
1 - Nature's Eye: Azzuro
Also @Andrea and designing ships around the steam engine: I'm assuming the SBP1 is more so an existing standard ship with heavy modifications. But now that we have he experience from that, we could make a completely new boat fitting the steam engines and multiple cannons without being delicate.
I think lifter steam engines is more important than crystal plating at sea, though. Right now our Fog-O-Wars are sinking after single hits because of how heavy they are. Fire isn't as effective, and more-so just damages our boats rather than one-shot them. That and steam engine improvements in general are always nice. Crystal plating should be saved for a future revision.
Next round I want to again emphasize that we definitely need to build new artillery. We're losing in the artillery game - the anti-magic shells will be nice but even with great rolls they won't completely stop the enemy artillery which is plentiful and out ranges most of our artillery. We need delivery devices for the Anti-magic shells. The HC1-E's with Equalizers loaded will most likely easily beat Moskurg artillery but for our HC1's they still have to roll into range. We need plentiful goood artillery, and designs like the FA1 and HA1 accomplish that.
But right now AM shells are more important. We can focus on artillery next turn.
EDIT: The AS-HC2-E also works as an alternative to the suggested artillery designs so far. Though I gotta ask what the AS stands for-- Oh. It's Arstotzka, isn't it?
Still. Antimagic shells this round, artillery the next.
Post by: RAM on May 04, 2017, 02:55:11 pm
Quote
Designs
2 - HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
2 - Heretic shell: Robson, Chiefwaffles
4 - SO1-AM "Equalizer": Chiefwaffles, Andrea, 10ebbor10, Roboson
1 - FA1 "Metal Storm" : 10ebbor10
1 - Freeze Wands: RAM
1 - Flash Cast Crystals: FallacyofUrist
1 - Divination Jammer: Andrea
3 - AS-HC2-E: Andres, 10ebbor10, Stabby
1 - Nature's Eye: Azzuro
0 - Supreme Predictive Algorithms Machine:
0 - Tower of Growth:
0 - (RAM)Living Crystal Charms:
0 - (RAM)Wooden Planks:
0 - Flameshrieker Shells:
Post by: Andres on May 04, 2017, 03:32:16 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
fakedit:
EDIT: The AS-HC2-E also works as an alternative to the suggested artillery designs so far. Though I gotta ask what the AS stands for-- Oh. It's Arstotzka, isn't it?((Yep. It's also what all of our designs in the original Arms Race began with.))
EDIT: The design succeeding is important. If the design fails, we need to spend the Revision phase fixing it. Doing so means we can't use the Revision phase to make our Frost Towers cheaper. Since all the regions are covered, making them cheaper will intensify the cold of those regions, killing the Moskurgs in the Plains and significantly diminishing them in the Jungle.
In fact, we could SERIOUSLY diminish the Moskurgs in the Jungle if we take the surplus Frost Towers from the Mountains and give them to the Jungle. Not quite enough to kill them all, but it's enough to make it a complete hell for them.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 04, 2017, 03:45:41 pm
We should not be reducing the expense of our towers. They don't work at sea where we are straight-up losing and hurting significantly for it. We need a revision to work st sea regardless of the design.
We can afford losing the jungle again, and an anti-magic shell still makes that much less likely.
I'm not significantly opposed to a new artillery design but a revision that works at sea is very important. I'll be fine if we get better artillery this design phase.
Also, shouldn't the AS-HC2-E actually be named the AS-HC3?
Post by: Roboson on May 04, 2017, 03:48:33 pm
It's unlikely an antimagic bomb like this will even stop their casting. It's like sprinkling sand on a fire, a few grains will weaken it, but it will take a lot to put it out. More than we have. We need something that works to constantly keep their magic down and can't be used against us or blow up in our possession.
Just fixing some errors that worked their way into the voting chart...QuoteDesigns
2 - HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
2 - Heretic shell: Robson, Chiefwaffles
3 - SO1-AM "Equalizer": Chiefwaffles, Andrea, 10ebbor10,
1 - FA1 "Metal Storm" : 10ebbor10
1 - Freeze Wands: RAM
1 - Flash Cast Crystals: FallacyofUrist
2 - Divination Jammer: Andrea, Roboson
3 - AS-HC2-E: Andres, 10ebbor10, Stabby
1 - Nature's Eye: Azzuro
0 - Supreme Predictive Algorithms Machine:
0 - Tower of Growth:
0 - (RAM)Living Crystal Charms:
0 - (RAM)Wooden Planks:
0 - Flameshrieker Shells:
Post by: Light forger on May 04, 2017, 03:49:40 pm
Quote
Designs
2 - HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
2 - Heretic shell: Robson, Chiefwaffles
3 - SO1-AM "Equalizer": Chiefwaffles, Andrea, 10ebbor10,
1 - FA1 "Metal Storm" : 10ebbor10
1 - Freeze Wands: RAM
1 - Flash Cast Crystals: FallacyofUrist
2 - Divination Jammer: Andrea, Roboson
4 - AS-HC2-E: Andres, 10ebbor10, Stabby, Lightforger
1 - Nature's Eye: Azzuro
0 - Supreme Predictive Algorithms Machine:
0 - Tower of Growth:
0 - (RAM)Living Crystal Charms:
0 - (RAM)Wooden Planks:
0 - Flameshrieker Shells:
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 04, 2017, 03:52:49 pm
It's based on the antimagic but the goal is to cancel out enemy magic near where it hits. When we have existing technology that does this.
It's the same thing as loading an anti-magic charm into a shell but with a better range, it's not a singular point of failure (think of it like this: 100x1 = 100.)
I'd like to point out that we've delayed a counter to lucky strike what, 3 turns in a row?
Lucky strike is the reason for the success of their ballistae.
It's why their fire bombs are so effective.
It's why we're losing at land and sea.
We need to counter it. We've delayed it too many times and delaying it again isn't going to work.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 04, 2017, 03:56:52 pm
Quote
In the western seas we are met with a source of frustration. Our new Fog-O-War, initially designed to match Moskurg speed and out-range their artillery, now simply matches them in both areas. Our heavier ship construction means we can survive more mundane hits, be it rock or javelin, but their fire is nearly impossible to put out. Our men have resorted to hacking off parts of the ship that catch on fire and dumping them overboard, even if it results in a leak. It's the better alternative than burning up. Our cannons are equally effective; the small, dense, shaped cannon shot punches holes through the light, delicate Moskurg ships. Every hit results in a sunk ship, but that's only coming from our limited steam ships. They carry their weight, bringing down many with them, but once they're gone Moskurg has the advantage. It doesn't help that nearly any damage to the steamship inevitably results in it sinking; it sits so low in the water that once it starts to flood it's nearly impossible to stop. Still, they prove their worth today and manage to keep Moskurg from gaining ground, even with their new extreme-range ballistas mounted on every ship. It was an expensive stalemate and we will likely lose ground unless something changes next year.
Our Theatre Commander understands the use of the Fog-O-War. Arstotzkan ships are sturdy by design, and the fact that we can tank hits when they can't is a big boon to our side. If we had an entire fleet of them, the battle would have been over just as quickly as it started. He points out that the Fog-O-War is sturdier, but the fact that they tend to eventually sink after a single hit is a big issue. A ship designed entirely around the steam engine would be far more efficient, and would let us field more cannons aboard her decks too. Their fire is still an issue; perhaps crystal armor could help keep the wood and tar beneath from burning up...?
Neither side gains ground in the Western Sea.
So, uhm, I was rereading the update, and found this part quite strange.
We have an entire fleet of steamships. They're just as expensive as our normal ships.
We got lucky when we rolled that 6 despite the -3 modifier, and I don't think we should be punished for that with an ad hoc rule change to suddenly implement a new tier exclusively for our units.
Post by: Light forger on May 04, 2017, 03:58:26 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 04, 2017, 03:59:54 pm
They are Very Expensive, and so are our ships.
Oh, and GM, you forgot to include our newest designs.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 04, 2017, 04:02:02 pm
Quote
Despite all these flaws, it can - barely - match pace with a Moskurg ship once at full steam. It's not as manueverable, but it does currently out-range everything Moskurg has deployed. Due to the very expensive nature of the steam engines, cannons, and ships, the Fog-O-War is a Very Expensive as well, especially without the mines in the mountains to suppliment the high metal cost. We will be able to deploy three in each sea theatre, although decreasing the cost of its components will allow us to outfit more of our fleet with these upgrades. Very [Very] Expensive.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 04, 2017, 04:03:42 pm
I though it was just fluff, as the GM said earlier.
It's "technically" just Very Expensive.
A new tier invented solely to put our ships in, despite the fact that our lucky roll said they should have been just normal very expensive. We got lucky that it wasn't a nat effort, let us then profit from that luck. Moskurg gets lucky too.
The idea that cost of components increases cost of vessel exists only for our steamship. It's applied in no other situation. Look at our cavalry, for example. We did not have lances for all of them, but that doesn't mean they dissappeared, our cavalry forces simply used other weapons. Look at our anti-wizards, they use expensive charms, but are cheap. My guess it is the same for the Moskurgians. They did not get less archers or ballistae due to relying on lucky strike.
Logically, what should happen is that the expensive parts serve as limiter. Ie, we can't make an expensive ship using very expensive artillery. But since in our case all parts are very expensive, no shortage occurs.
Just because our original boats were very bad (and thus very expensive), doesn't mean our new ones should suddenly get a new ruleset to nerf them. I'd rather that our old vessels are retconned to being just expensive than this inconsistent mess where one design gets treated differently than everything else. What I'd like most, of course, is for the design to be treated as it should.
We spend more than enough design actions on this thing than to deserve yet another, "you are still losing".
Post by: Roboson on May 04, 2017, 04:05:48 pm
It's... not an antimagic bomb?
It's based on the antimagic but the goal is to cancel out enemy magic near where it hits. When we have existing technology that does this.
It's the same thing as loading an anti-magic charm into a shell but with a better range, it's not a singular point of failure (think of it like this: 100x1 = 100.)
I'd like to point out that we've delayed a counter to lucky strike what, 3 turns in a row?
Lucky strike is the reason for the success of their ballistae.
It's why their fire bombs are so effective.
It's why we're losing at land and sea.
We need to counter it. We've delayed it too many times and delaying it again isn't going to work.
The exploding anti-magic field is not really a jammer, and if the lucky strike counts as an enchantment, it won't counter that, just how our antimagic doesn't dispel our axes. It's a variant on the antimagic bomb, and I don't think it will do a whole lot for us. I just don't think it's actually capable of stopping lucky strike, and it definitely won't go off in their antimagic fields.
Your "Hopeless" design was far superior, in my opinion.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 04, 2017, 04:36:55 pm
The original was dissapointing, least we could get something that works out of this one.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 04, 2017, 04:45:41 pm
Though I do think the shells are the best choice for now.
Post by: andrea on May 04, 2017, 04:48:18 pm
anyway, making artillery cheap will work better next turn. Remember that holding mountains gives a bonus when designing metal stuff. right now we have no such bonus, so we should leave heavy metal things to next turn. And counter lucky strike, possibly.
(vote jammers! vote jammers!)
Post by: evictedSaint on May 04, 2017, 04:55:37 pm
I'm...honestly getting pretty tired of this game.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 04, 2017, 05:06:25 pm
It's a weapon you'd have less of than your regular ships that's not quite a national effort. There wasn't an expense level to describe that so I made up one - lowering expense would push it down to the same expense as the rest of your ships, but at the moment you have more than a national effort would suggest.
I'm...honestly getting pretty tired of this game.
I know what it says, I don't see why. We spend a ton of effort designing the engine, revising it, getting the cannons working. And then we get a lucky roll despite the -3 modifier, and all it does is get us a marginally better result than if we rolled a 2.
On a side note, a better case for my argument.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 04, 2017, 05:29:30 pm
Everyone makes mistakes, and you've done a great job - far better than I could have ever done myself, on a lesser note - despite them.
I'm positive that everyone playing on both sides greatly appreciate your efforts, and despite some people or entire sides trying to point out inconsistencies or errors, I'm sure that those people still appreciates everything you've done.
So I'd personally say, just try and make it fun. I know "fun" is relative and vague, but still. You don't have to bend to the will of the players and shouldn't feel pressure to. Rather, just ask if you agree with the arguments people present. It's your game, and if you don't agree with the players on the reasoning for something, in the end, it's your reasoning that wins because it's your game. Like for example, if someone were to directly ask me what I thought Ebbor is right in his expense thing, I would agree with him, but I cannot emphasize enough how much I would be fine if you made a judgement call going against him. Like, I wouldn't be "ugh, fine I guess", but rather I'd literally be fine. It's a game and I trust in the GM to make it fun. Just do what you think is the best idea and then present it to the players. People are playing because they find it fun to play. I'm most certainly not the authority or even that knowledgeable in forum games, but I still want to say all this because again, this is one of my favorite forum games that I've ever participated again.
Post by: Andres on May 04, 2017, 05:33:19 pm
I'm not significantly opposed to a new artillery design but a revision that works at sea is very important. I'll be fine if we get better artillery this design phase.We can revise our current ship to be cheaper. Our commander said it wouldn't even be a contest if we just had enough ships.
Also, shouldn't the AS-HC2-E actually be named the AS-HC3?
The design is based on the HC1-E. The HC2 has too many bugs to base a design off of that.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: andrea on May 04, 2017, 05:36:47 pm
HC2-E already exists, it is the extreme range version of HC2. it was made automatically.
evictedsaint, I quote waffles entirely. This was the second best arms race after Sensei's. you did a great job and I hope you can continue.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 04, 2017, 05:37:59 pm
And yeah, revising the Fog-O-War cheaper could definitely work, but I'm a bit nervous of the concept of such a sinkable fleet. But I still think revising the steam engine to be lighter is the best option for the reasons I stated, and what Andrea just posted.
Post by: RAM on May 04, 2017, 05:43:22 pm
Oh, wait, it is kill_char(rand())
huh, that seems like poor coding to me, I feel as though there should be a selection process specific for characters, just feeding an unbounded random number in there seems risky and unreliable. I mean, sure, there are ways of dealing with it, but you never know when you might have more characters than possible random values and just dividing it down will tend to leave you with an uneven overlap, slightly increasing the likelihood of a low-numbered character being selected.
Oh, wait, on topic? Umm, I feel as though wands are nice. they address our current problem, enough cold will kill a flame, and learning wands is a nice step towards magic access to the masses.
Also also, my wood is the best wood! We have lots of wooden stuff, and this is basically reactive armour, it explodes as it breaks down, so fire especially, but probably also piercing impacts, will cause a small explosion at the point of impact. It makes sense scientifically(well, okay, not even remotely, but sort-of), because trees are already high-energy and crystals are high-energy and crystals are brittle so will tend to release energy on impact rather than transfer it(although I might be a bit ambitious with the thing not chain-reacting, but the individual explosion are literally microscopic, it is only when lots of cells break at once that it is noticeable, and it would tend to be angled towards the facing that was breached...). It makes sense thematically because we really like our crystals, and making better wood is an obvious application of our plant magic, reactive armour is just a nice surprise from an in-character perspective... And it makes sense militarily because they are putting fire all over everything and this is wood that is pretty much immune to their fire, except that it splashes it around in the direction it came from, which could be unfortunate if it landed directly on top of a plank, but are tiny little gobs really that much of a worry?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 04, 2017, 07:40:05 pm
Also, Roboson, out of curiosity, do you prefer the Hopeless or Heretic shells? Hopeless would need a bit of refinement to make it a bit more anti-divination versus anti-prayer (same principle though) but it still works. I'm asking because isn't the Heretic shell pretty functionally similar to the Hopeless?
Anyways, a FUTURE design based off of RAM's living crystal ideas.
Future Design: AS-DF1 "Gallant" Crystal Barrier
Fortifications are generally a good thing to have.
Fortifications generally take a while to construct.
Our mathemagicians, being the genius Arstotzkans that they are, have come up with a solution to this problem: The living crystal. In the past, a more eccentric lead Mathemagician suggested the use of using the "spark of life" imbued to the fire wasps our mages summon in combination with crystal could lead to interesting results. Now, as our mages have observed in the field, our fire wasps aren't exactly smart. This leads to problems, but we must start somewhere.
The AS-Deployable Barrier 1 "Gallant" uses this living crystal in its core design. Ultimately, the intention of the design is to be distributed to as many mundane and magical troops as possible.
Prior to activation and in its "default" form, the AS-DF1 takes the form of a small crystal "stone" - almost like a gemstone - stored in a very simple case on the person. In order to activate it, an Arstotzkan soldier merely has to take it out of its case, apply pressure, and place it where the barrier is desired. Once this is done, the crystal stone rapidly grows out into the shape of a large barricade - big enough to completely shield a huddled group of roughly 3-5 people (depending on how huddled they are) and/or an HCx. This is accomplished via the use of stored energy in the crystal imbued at its creation; enough pressure triggers a chain-reaction, unleashing the energy. Normally this would result in a magical explosion (multiple people were lost during testing), but the "spark of life" imbued in the crystal guides the energy into growing the crystal into the shape of a useable barrier. Because of how fast this chain-reaction is, the crystal expands with speed comparable to a bomb, and is thus very useful in the field.
The crystal, once deployed, has the same maintenance requires as regular crystal. Allowing it to be used as temporary fortifications mid-battle or for easy construction of more long-term constructions with an apprentice or other mage present to maintain it. The recommended use for soldiers is for protection during artillery and other ranged fire, general-use barricades, or for shielding artillery. It also has application in the sea - for shielding against hostile bombardment. Our mathemagicians theorize it could be used in the field to patch-up holes in our ships, but they're uncertain if that can make it in the final design. If not, a simple revision to the imbued life can allow it to intelligently patch up holes it's placed in.
Now, this is an incredibly simple application of the "spark of life" - it just uses it to grow, but with this pioneering design completed, we could explore much further possibilities in imbued life!
If we do use this design and do it after something like the AS-HC3, then we can take advantage of the fact that we would have already explored into "stored energy". Not exclusive to the AS-HC3 design of course, but anything that uses stored magical energy.
Also, note to self, this could be revised to work even better at sea - with minor improvements to the life imbued, the crystal could instead grow in holes of ships to patch the hole.
EDIT: P.S. more votes from undecided people in general would be nice, by the way. I think the heretic shell, anti-magic shell, and any of the new artillery (HA1 is the best though clearly) are all viable options.
Post by: Roboson on May 04, 2017, 08:12:02 pm
Post by: Roboson on May 04, 2017, 09:10:38 pm
Anti-Invocation Directional System
Spoiler: Visual Aid (click to show/hide)
The Anti-Invocation Directional System (AIDs for short) is our nation's response to lucky strike. Utilizing our anti-magic crystal technology, we've designed a type of anti-magic homing system. The system is contained with a modified rifled artillery shell. Each AIDs Shell has several antimagic charms around the diameter surrounded by a reinforced tube. These tubes are held within the shell until the shell begins its descent, which forces them to deploy. The tubes are designed to be aerodynamic, almost like small wings, so as to not impede the flight of the shell, but instead, guide it. The antimagic crystals held within give off small amounts of magic energy, which then forces the shell to turn slightly. This occurs until all the crystals are giving off the same amount of energy, which only occurs when the shell is perfectly on-target.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 04, 2017, 10:49:58 pm
Also an interesting idea which I really like but it also seems really risky. Any idea for stepstone techs to work on in the meantime?
A future revision! This one is just a prospect for the future - I probably wouldn't do it anytime soon.
Future revision: Screw Propeller
The steam paddle used by our SBP1 is clunky and slow. A new solution was devised by a mathemagician in the naval department of the Design Bureau. Instead of a large paddle sitting both above and below the water, something called a "screw propeller" - named so for its shape - can be placed completely underwater. This new propulsion method grants steam-powered ships much higher speeds thanks to its new shape.
Adaption is easy - the screw propeller works off of a mechanical connection to the steam engines just like the steam paddle, and makes much better use of the steam engines' generated power.
Also, another future design! I think this one should be done fairly soon, but not now. It's actually pretty simple: The main differences between it and the SBP1 are the crystal plating and the size. Though simply increasing the size has a lot of benefits - agility, integrity, space for weapons, etc. If we do develop it then we'd need an anchored crystal revision almost right after. It'd be pretty funny though if we designed the Crystalclad, deployed it, then develop anchored crystal. Assuming no spying is going on, watch as Moskurg upgrades the range of their anti-magic and laugh.
Future Design: AS-SBP2 "Crystalclad"
The Crystalclad is a magnificent display of Arstotzkan might and is poised to forever change the ways of warfare on the seas.
Its number one advantage is its crystal plating: The cheap, light, and strong crystal we're so familiar with has been manipulated into plating for the whole ship, literally cladding it in crystal. The effect is an awe-inspiring vessel. The ship is designed for the crew to operate on the ship largely from the inside to maximize protection against enemy attacks.
The ship is equipped with 4 cannons of any type, along with three steam engines. The ship is designed around holding this weight and thus will not be disadvantaged by it. The crystal armor will make the ship nearly impervious to enemy attempts to sink it. In fact, most ballista bolts should bounce harmlessly off of the armoring.
The ship itself is a huge creation and dwarfs the SBP1, as it was designed specifically to hold the engines and cannons without a loss in reliability and integrity. While heavier, the ship maintains and even beats the speed of the SBP1 with an additional steam engine. The ship is actually much more agile than the SBP1 thanks to the much higher profile of the ship in water.
Tests and calculations have also been done regarding a Crystalclad in an enemy anti-magic field: Crystal plating will slowly disappear off the ship - it isn't an immediate effect due to the sheer mass of it. An unarmored Crystalclad is much more vulnerable to enemy bombardment as the crystal is merely the primary layer of armoring on top of wood, but the ship will not sink. It is comparable to our previous standard boats before the SBP1 when unarmored. However, due to the range at which naval engagements are fought and the fact that the SBP2 will match or beat the speed of enemy ships means an anti-magic field is an extreme rarity.
Also, once we solve the artillery problem (THEY CAN'T KEEP INCREASING THEIR RANGE BUT WE SURE CAN INCREASE OURS EHHEHEHEHE) we should do anchored crystal regardless. It'd help make crystal research useful again and having our crystal weapons back would be amazing. And since I doubt we'll be getting an update tonight...
Please vote for the heretic or anti-magic shell to FINALLY COUNTER LUCKY STRIKE. We keep on delaying this and we keep on hurting because of it. I would like to re-emphasize that nearly the entire enemy advantage comes from lucky strike. Getting rid of it would vastly improve our performance in literally every theater.
Post by: Roboson on May 04, 2017, 11:15:31 pm
"AIDs shell" nice. Literally sending our enemies AIDs.
Also an interesting idea which I really like but it also seems really risky. Any idea for stepstone techs to work on in the meantime?
Not really. Its not a complex system. Basically its a shell with anti-magic crystals on it. The ones closer to the magical source release more energy, causing it to turn that direction (due to the angle of the tubes). It does that until all of the crystals are firing to the same strength, which means the target is dead ahead.
Its more math than magic actually.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 04, 2017, 11:33:27 pm
Quote
2 - HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUristAlso Roboson you should totally vote for the SO1-AM again. It may not be an anti-divination shell, but I think it's the next-best thing and it's the most supported option in the category of "ACTUAL COUNTERS ON LUCKY STRIKE".
2 - Heretic shell: Robson, Chiefwaffles
3 - SO1-AM "Equalizer": Chiefwaffles, Andrea, 10ebbor10,
1 - FA1 "Metal Storm" : 10ebbor10
1 - Freeze Wands: RAM
1 - Flash Cast Crystals: FallacyofUrist
2 - Divination Jammer: Andrea, Roboson
4 - AS-HC2-E: Andres, 10ebbor10, Stabby, Lightforger
1 - Nature's Eye: Azzuro
0 - Supreme Predictive Algorithms Machine:
0 - Tower of Growth:
0 - (RAM)Living Crystal Charms:
0 - (RAM)Wooden Planks:
0 - Flameshrieker Shells:
2 - AIDs Shell: Chiefwaffles, Roboson
And beginning this revision phase, I personally think we should start including the links to the original design post inside the votebox. People would have to directly quote it instead of just copy+pasting its text, but it'd make it a whole lot more convenient for anyone trying to interpret it. It is absolute hell trying to find the original design post for something sometimes.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on May 04, 2017, 11:36:27 pm
Quote
2 - HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUristEh, its as good of a idea as any.
2 - Heretic shell: Robson, Chiefwaffles
4 - SO1-AM "Equalizer": Chiefwaffles, Andrea, 10ebbor10, Stabby
1 - FA1 "Metal Storm" : 10ebbor10
1 - Freeze Wands: RAM
1 - Flash Cast Crystals: FallacyofUrist
2 - Divination Jammer: Andrea, Roboson
3 - AS-HC2-E: Andres, 10ebbor10, Lightforger
1 - Nature's Eye: Azzuro
0 - Supreme Predictive Algorithms Machine:
0 - Tower of Growth:
0 - (RAM)Living Crystal Charms:
0 - (RAM)Wooden Planks:
0 - Flameshrieker Shells:
2 - AIDs Shell: Chiefwaffles, Roboson
Post by: Roboson on May 04, 2017, 11:53:11 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 04, 2017, 11:54:49 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 05, 2017, 12:21:50 am
Quote
2 - HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
2 - Heretic shell: Robson, Chiefwaffles
4 - SO1-AM "Equalizer": Chiefwaffles, Andrea, 10ebbor10, Stabby
1 - FA1 "Metal Storm" : 10ebbor10
1 - Freeze Wands: RAM
1 - Flash Cast Crystals: FallacyofUrist, VoidSlayer
2 - Divination Jammer: Andrea, Roboson
3 - AS-HC2-E: Andres, 10ebbor10, Lightforger
1 - Nature's Eye: Azzuro
0 - Supreme Predictive Algorithms Machine:
0 - Tower of Growth:
0 - (RAM)Living Crystal Charms:
0 - (RAM)Wooden Planks:
0 - Flameshrieker Shells:
2 - AIDs Shell: Chiefwaffles, Roboson
Voting for my Flash Cast Crystals as no one actually proposed anything else I think will actually defend against artillery.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 05, 2017, 12:26:22 am
Post by: Light forger on May 05, 2017, 12:31:28 am
Post by: andrea on May 05, 2017, 12:35:30 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 05, 2017, 12:37:05 am
It doesn't matter how accurate their ballistae are without lucky strike - it matters that countering lucky strike will significantly reduce the accuracy by a large degree. Also, both Heretic shells and AM shells will counter other spells too, but that's not the point.
Post by: RAM on May 05, 2017, 12:55:29 am
Post by: Roboson on May 05, 2017, 12:55:45 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 05, 2017, 01:23:45 am
YEAR 931
1.) Design: Counter to Lucky Strike - Preferably a shell to maximize on current potential. The counter won't be at full effectiveness immediately due to the small amount of extreme-range artillery, but that will be remedied soon.
2.) Revision: Lighter steam engines/Cheaper fog-o-wars/Crystal reinforcement/Sea-based revisions - We need to start winning at sea. We're so close. The anti-magic shells will help, but a revision needs to be done to go the full stretch. Lighter steam engines means our fog-o-wars won't sink after a single hit and further improves our steam engines for general use. Cheaper fog-o-wars is self explanatory - they're superior ships to the rest of our fleet and deploying them en masse would be a huge help, although the sinking remains a problem. Crystal reinforcement, like the lighter steam engine, paves the way for the Crystalclad, and makes all of our ships/our fog-o-wars much better defended against fire and general enemy fire.
YEAR 932
3.) Design: New artillery (AS-HC3/FA1/HA1) - Even with Lucky Strike gone, we'd still be disadvantaged in artillery battles - most of our artillery is outranged, and while we have better rate of fire(?) and accuracy w/o their lucky strike, range is the most important factor. We also can't use the AM/Heretic shell to full effectiveness as our HA1's are significantly hurt as they roll into range and we just don't have enough HA1-E's.
4.) Revision: ??? - As designs tend to have problems and more things will need countering, this revision should just be used for general bug fixing/further countering the enemy. Maybe one of the revisions listed in #2.
YEAR 933
5.) Design: Crystalclad. This will cement Arstotzkan dominance at sea. Ideally, the #2 revision will at least allow us to hold our ground at sea if not start pushing them back, but this will actually ensure that we can start winning. It has a greatly improved armament, greatly improved armor, will have greatly increased agility, and general integrity. I'm also certain the penalties will be almost nonexistent in designing this due to I
6.) Revision: Crystalclad Fixing - Chances are the Crystalclad will have a bug and this revision should be used to fix it. Otherwise, it should be used for reducing the Crystalclad's expense or anchored crystal.
YEAR 934
7.) Design: AS-DF1 "Gallant" Crystal Barrier - It starts to get iffy here since at this point we really have no clue what we'll need in 934, but the Gallant is still a design I really like.
8.) Revision: Anchored crystal - We seriously need to make crystal usable again. All we need is one revision to make it anchored. This can go up if the lower-priority revisions end up having nothing else to do. But otherwise, this would make sure the Crystalclad doesn't suddenly have melting armor, we could use the superior crystal weapons again, and crystal-based technology will become viable again.
And of course this is just a vague plan of what I'm going to be pushing. I know it's subject to spying by people in Moskurg but plans change and I most certainly can't get much of this stuff supported, but I still like posting things like this.
Post by: RAM on May 05, 2017, 01:29:28 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 05, 2017, 01:34:29 am
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-DcTYZ2B2oOo/TVQs8YP1IRI/AAAAAAAABGA/YZKH7A8MJdE/s1600/longship01.jpg)
(Random picture of longship got off an image search)
The description says they carry large amounts of troops as well. For the crystalclads I'm thinking something more similar to ironclads, which I believe were usually equivalent in size to 1 deck of a frigate or ship-of-the-line in the 19th century. Or any size, really, as long as it can reliably fit a large number of cannons and enough steam engines to make it fast without sacrificing integrity.
Post by: RAM on May 05, 2017, 01:50:18 am
Post by: Andres on May 05, 2017, 04:59:42 am
Eh, its as good of a idea as any.It's not as good as mine. It's a dead end technology, or close to it. Furthermore, it is a more complex design and thus more likely to fail, and it will be of strictly limited use due to the rarity of our better cannons, which my design aims to fix.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 05, 2017, 10:35:59 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 05, 2017, 10:41:15 am
Post by: evictedSaint on May 05, 2017, 12:51:28 pm
This turned out to be a lot tougher than we thought.
The good news is that it is possible, just...difficult. And we were required to make some concessions in the design.
Rather than a single, massive anti-magic charm, we've instead crafted an ordinary cannon shell that has multiple anti-magic charms encrusted throughout it. Because using charms that explode has invariable destroyed every cannon we've attempted this with (likely due to the PSF cast in the steam chamber) we've been forced instead to use our more up-to-date charms that sadly don't exploded into lethal shrapnel. They still have a chance to break when being fired out of a cannon though, and this occassionally causes it to jam and explode violently.
However, if enough of the gems survive and the cannon doesn't explode, the shell will prevent any magic from being cast near where it lands. Surprisingly, our researchers note that when the charms overlap the volume of the anti-magic field is preserved. Having multiple charms in the same area negates magic in a larger area, although continuing to add charms has diminishing returns with respect to range.
Due to the number of charms and extra effort to craft each shell for each specific cannon, these shells are terribly expensive and we can only make enough to outfit one cannon per year. National Effort.
Post by: andrea on May 05, 2017, 12:53:34 pm
Post by: Andres on May 05, 2017, 01:14:47 pm
Make Frost Towers cheaper. This will double the amount of Frost Towers we get, letting us double the amount of cold we're currently producing with them. This will kill all Moskurg life on the Plains. Since the current amount of Frost Towers are sufficient in the Mountains, we can move the new surplus to the Jungle, which may be enough to kill them all.
It doesn't do anything with our artillery and it doesn't help us at sea, but the Moskurgs are very close to capturing both the Plains and the Jungle. If we can keep our hold on them we will have a resource advantage. ((Note: We beat Moskurg in the last game on such an advantage.))
Quote
1 - Cheaper Frost Towers: Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Roboson on May 05, 2017, 01:24:32 pm
Revise our fireball to run in reverse, thus instead of creating flames, it destroys them.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 05, 2017, 01:31:02 pm
Reverse fireball
Revise our fireball to run in reverse, thus instead of creating flames, it destroys them.
We have these giant, massive frost towers.
Why not use those as basis of a spell, instead of incurring the dreaded (-2 new technology) penalty.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 05, 2017, 01:49:27 pm
Anyway, we need something we can use at Sea, lest Moskurg drives us out of ours Seas entirely.
Revision
Frost Condenser : The idea has been iterated upon several times, but this time, we're certain it will work. Using spells borrowed from our tower of Frost, including(most importantly, the climate control system), we have this time developed a cooling system that can efficiently, cheaply and effortlessly cool down the steam used in our engines without disaster. This has many benefits :
- 1) Our current, primitive condensators can only cool stuff to the temperature of it's environment, or much above that. Worse, if the environment freezes, the engine may threaten to seize. Our climate controlled cooling solution can always reach the optimum temperature, ensuring optimal power in all situations.
- 2) Rapid cooling causes steam to shrink dramatically, creating a far lower pressure. Combined with the fact that no more power needs to be wasted to push water through the cooling system, this increases our power significantly.
-3) The Frost Condensor is a tiny, tiny thing, unlike the large metal pipe and frame constructions that were used previously. This lowers metal costs and reduces weight massively.
Flame Turbine : One day one of our apprentices asked a question that stunned the assembly. After having been punished for insulting the intelligence of his superiors, his question took the Academy by storm. "Why do we use water in the first place?" It turns out, this was a question none could answer, for there was no real good reason. The result in a steam engine, but without steam.
The engine has been opened at one. Here, one or more apprentices throw our modified fireball spells into the machine (we can throw fireballs, so we can push them into the machine). The rapidly heating air expands enormously (which is what normally cause the fireball to explode) pushing the turbine faster and faster. Finally, the remainder of the flame bursts out of the exhaust stack. Some have suggested using this flame to power a conventional steam engine, but that is not within our powers at present.
Order
Operation: Exhaustion
Remind our anti-mage forces that they are anti-mage forces. Use them as a quick flanking force to attack enemy artillery. They're to harras the enemy with fireballs (cheap, so our apprentices can do it while they need a real wizard to counter), anti-magic arrows(prepared, while they need a wizard to counter) and while carrying weapons painted to look like crystal from a distance (our cost : nothing, theirs : experienced mages).
I'm pretty certain we have more mages than them. If we force Moskurg to meet us mage for mage, they will be unable to support their forces, and said forces will crumble.
Quote
Revisions :
1 Magic Condensor : 10ebbor10
1 - Cheaper Frost Towers: Andres
Orders :
1 Operation Exhaustion : 10ebbor10
Both of these are variants on the steam engine. The first is simple, changing our steam engine to use a proper condensor.
The second is the result of me realizing that we actually developed turbines. That means we already got the most important part of a gas turbine done. The other parts are the compressor (not needed because we can throw fireballs) and the exhaust, which solves itself.
In theory, it should be feasible as a revision, though it may run into issues such as overheating, low efficiency and exhaust setting stuff on fire. If it works however, we have an extremely light (water is heavy), rapid and powerfull engine.
Post by: RAM on May 05, 2017, 03:55:41 pm
Summons a highly condensed fog. This upgrades our steam-magic to work more intensely thus allowing us to reduce their size. It also improves hygiene by granting a source of reliably clean water, which helps with medicine. Finally, it clearly doesn't extinguish the enemy flames, but may allow their dilution, allowing it to be minimised on something important at the cost of spreading it out a bit, it also offers a chance to temporarily soak an object, which does make it last a little longer against the enemy flames, granting more time to take off an item of apparel or such. Finally finally, because it is temporary water, it is remarkably good at drying things. Soak them in this stuff and then when the duration expires, it will vanish, having replaced the majority of the previous moisture, which helps with dry laundry, which in turn has additional health and morale benefits. We have also produced a standardised warning sign to indicate the presence of temporary water, to discourage the drinking of such.
I realise that I am asking a lot here, but it is water, water is insanely useful. Also, there is some risk that bad things might happen if your drink temporary water.
Revision: Dogwizard Staves
By magically infusing a dogwood seed with magically polarised quartz, we have allowed it to achieve a small mimicry of the antimagic charms' effect of absorbing magic. The mutant trees can then feed themselves on magic to hasten their growth. In essence, this converts our dogwood staves into dogwizard staves, which can maintain their longevity by metabolising magic. A side-effect of this is that they output their post-metabolised (pure)magic into a more stable form. We have attuned this waste magic such that it accumulates in a number of temporary shoots that grow out of the tip of the staff, which can be pulled off and planted, to rapidly grow most trees(notably not dogwizard trees, which require a quartz content, and the shoots do not yet materialise quartz) as they have gradually accumulated the power of a great many conventional tree-growth spells. the downside is that they continually feed on the magic of their wizard, who must make regular contact with the staves(most difficultly sleeping with them) and become sick if exposed to magical drain and can die if exposed to such for more than about a couple dozen minutes, due to not being able to metabolise in the complete absence of ambient magic but benefitting from a naturally slow metabolism. Overall, the combination of a permanent tree-growth staff combined with a saved-up quick-grow function should outweigh the difficulties. We are also looking into the possibility of adding gems to these staves to provide temporary power storage, to prevent the difficulties associated with brief separation.
College of mathemagical manipulation, methods, and misuse.
We gather some of our brightest mathemagical minds, especially those with poor magical potential, in one place. Ostensibly, this is to train our academy students to learn the basic principals of the ever more necessary field of mathemagics, thus keeping pace with complexity issues, but it serves a more direct purpose. We have developed an extremely focused version of the antimagic charm, by embedding it into the base of a large quartz gem with directed magical channels focused into a pointed end tapered down by a master gem-smith. This has no known battle0field purpose, as it is a very large and fragile apparatus for an overall weaker antimagic charm, but in experimentation this allows the systematic disabling of specific components of a spell or magical item. This allows our mathemagicians to tease apart our designs(enemy designs tend to be impossible due to not being reproducible) and mathemagically model each aspect of them.
The effect of this is to grant a bonus to reverse-engineering existing magic. Such as tweaking an antimagic charm to only effect a single wave-length of magic, or isolating exactly what makes our fire-wasps alive.
The dice have been properly hating on us. I feel that it is too meta to be possible, from a game-balance perspective, but could the keggers be messing with our rolls?
Quote
Revisions :
1 - (Andres)Cheaper Frost Towers: Andres
0 - (Roboson)Reverse fireball:
1 - (10ebbor10)Magic Condensor : 10ebbor10
0 - (RAM)Summon water:
0 - (RAM)Dogwizard Staves:
0 - (RAM)College of mathemagical manipulation, methods, and misuse:
Orders :
1 Operation Exhaustion : 10ebbor10
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 05, 2017, 04:32:02 pm
Quote
The dice have been properly hating on us. I feel that it is too meta to be possible, from a game-balance perspective, but could the keggers be messing with our rolls?
Would be way too unbalancing. Highly doubt the GM would allow it.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 05, 2017, 04:44:25 pm
Quote
Surprisingly, our researchers note that when the charms overlap the volume of the anti-magic field is preserved. Having multiple charms in the same area negates magic in a larger area, although continuing to add charms has diminishing returns with respect to range.That's a bonus to anti-magic charm range revisions/designs right there. So it isn't a total loss. Just an almost total loss.
Also on the not-as-dark side, if we ever want to do try again we'll definitely have a bonus, but it would most certainly have to be a design. We should definitely try this again later. But for now we need to at least focus on "stop losing"
Personally, I think:
1.) We can afford to lose in the jungle this round if we gain in another.
2.) If we lose this round, we need to win next combat phase which is not a bet I'm willing to make.
3.) With the right revision, we can likely hold our ground in the jungle, buying time.
4.) In the seas we need to start winning as soon as possible since they're getting advantages from it and we're getting disadvantages.
Therefore, we need to make a revision that'll help in both theaters.
Just... not cheaper frost towers. We need something actually useful. Actually, I'm just going to do:
Revision: Standardized HC1-E Manufacturing
(This doesn't change the name of the HC1-E)
Our mathemagicians have decided that instead of making costly calculations, mistakes, and other time-consuming actions every single time a HC1-E is produced, we can standardize the process. Tools of a standardized measurement are distributed to the workers making the cannons, allowing them to quickly judge what needs to be done. Tools are developed that expedite many processes in making the cannon and compress lots of individual actions into one use of the tool. We've also started training more workers but with less training each to work on the cannons. Instead of a single skilled craftsmen, a cannon will have three or more workers at a time working on individual aspects. Training three workers in three parts is easier than fully training one worker in the whole process.
The result is that we'll be able to manufacture HC1-E's at a much higher rate.
The SO1-AM was designed to let us hold the ground or maybe even start advancing in the jungle while giving us with a smaller but still very nice boost at sea that could be capitalized on by a steam engine revision. But now we probably need to focus on something that's going to help both at sea and land. Hence the cheaper cannons - they'll help a lot in the jungle and at sea.
I know this would possibly be made obsolete from a new cannon design, but:
1.) Making HC1-E's cheaper would likely give a bonus to the Expense roll for a new cannon
2.) If we don't have the SO1-AM, then we need a cheap cannon now.
3.) We don't necessarily have to design a cannon next turn. (I for one am leaving my decision on what to design next round based on what happens this combat phase. For some reason, I didn't account "RNG still hates us" in my plans.)
I'm without a doubt going to be trying for the SO1-AM again soon-ish, as it'll have a significant boost to designing considering the good ol' "learning from your failures". Though I doubt it's going to pass since people almost definitely are going to associate the bad rolls version with the design itself.
Quote
Revisions :Also RAM I'm not a huge fan of putting the design authors next to the design name. It crowds it up, and feels irrelevant - people should be caring about the design and not the person who proposed it.
1 - Standardized HC1-E Manufacturing (Cheaper HC1-E's): Chiefwaffles
1 - (Andres)Cheaper Frost Towers: Andres
0 - (Roboson)Reverse fireball:
1 - (10ebbor10)Magic Condensor : 10ebbor10
0 - (RAM)Summon water:
0 - (RAM)Dogwizard Staves:
0 - (RAM)College of mathemagical manipulation, methods, and misuse:
Orders :
2 - Operation Exhaustion : 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles
Post by: Roboson on May 05, 2017, 09:45:56 pm
Flame Turbine : One day one of our apprentices asked a question that stunned the assembly. After having been punished for insulting the intelligence of his superiors, his question took the Academy by storm. "Why do we use water in the first place?" It turns out, this was a question none could answer, for there was no real good reason. The result in a steam engine, but without steam.
The engine has been opened at one. Here, one or more apprentices throw our modified fireball spells into the machine (we can throw fireballs, so we can push them into the machine). The rapidly heating air expands enormously (which is what normally cause the fireball to explode) pushing the turbine faster and faster. Finally, the remainder of the flame bursts out of the exhaust stack. Some have suggested using this flame to power a conventional steam engine, but that is not within our powers at present.
My original cannon design ran along the same principle, but for some reason we decided to go with the steam version.
Post by: RAM on May 05, 2017, 11:55:57 pm
If we really want jets then we could revisit my pulse-jet idea...
Wikipaedia talks about reactive armour. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_armour#Directed_energy_reactive_armour) and someone seems to have snuck in some armour, which is awesome!
A thingy I made to explain how the crystalwood tree would provide effective armour. (http://imgur.com/a/PeHwk)
Against the fire, a depth of wood is flash-heated and explodes, throwing the fire away.
Against brute force, it breaks and explodes at the point of impact, and presses against the backing plate across its whole length. It generates additional force, but spreads that across a large area behind, and focuses it to push the intruding object away at the front.
Against a penetrating bolt, it pushes from both the front and the sides, a bit like catching a sword with your fingers, except plausible...
Against itself, it doesn't actually generate enough force to destroy itself, a large impact will destroy enough to destroy the surroundings, but those surrounds will destroy a smaller area, and after that a still smaller are, until it lacks the power trigger any explosions at all. It DOES chain-react, but not perpetually, so it won't completely vaporise on a single hit.
And it is still wood, it doesn't explode until it breaks, and breaking it absorbs energy, so it protects much as normal wood does.
And as far as wood-versus fire? Fire is anti-everything. But this is about as antifire as possible. If smothering a fire, and given the choice between three blankets, one foil, one wool, and one stone slab, which do you use? The stone slab will likely still let air in because it isn't flexible. The wool blanket will not propagate the fire, and is perfect, even though it will be damaged, the foil blanket will depending upon the intensity of the flame and the depth of the foil, catch fire and burn the everything ever with raging fury. Things that are anti-fire are things that the given fire cannot handle, which is nothing because the fire is subject to change with enemy action, and things which do not propagate the combustion reaction, which would include this particular design, even though it is wood...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 06, 2017, 12:17:14 am
Right now we match them in speed and in range with our Fog-O-Wars. Normally our boats are durable, but the Fog-O-War isn't thanks to how heavy the steam engines are. Just making the steam engines lighter would result in a lighter fog-o-war which means it'd have better agility, a tiny bit better speed (honestly not sure if this actually matters), and most importantly, our Fog-O-Wars would be a lot less delicate. Normally our boats tank multiple shots (less-so but still true with their fire shots) but the Fog-O-Wars just sink after one shot because of how heavy they are.
So, benefits of lighter steam engines:
1.) Our Fog-O-Wars will be a lot more durable.
2.) It leads to more possibilities in the future - lighter steam engines could be used for more things.
3.) It would makes our fog-o-wars more agile and faster, though by how much is unknown.
Hence I propose the...
Revision: Optimized Steam Engines (Lighter steam engines)
It turns out that our steam engines are unoptimal for their sizes. Many components of the steam engine almost look like they're carved out from the heaviest stone possible. After the mathemagician in charge of this previously was "questioned", our mathemagicians have come up with much better ways to go about this.
Instead of simply relying on "LOTS OF METAL" to keep parts of the steam engine from exploding, a bit more clever use of the more modern and civilized mathemagics can find methods of reinforcement that cost much less material, and are thus much more lighter. The choice of materials in various parts of the engine have been revisited, and it's been found that there are many parts which use materials that are simply just overkill. These parts can be replaced with materials of a lower strength without any decrease in reliability, power, or any other good statistic of the steam engine.
The result is a much lighter steam engine that also adheres to the Arstotzkan Mathemagical Standards Act of 930. The project leads also tell us they think it could be cheaper in addition to being light, but right now if their project is approved, they'll be focusing on making it light first, then cheap second.
Quote
NOTE: PLEASE QUOTE THIS INSTEAD OF COPY+PASTING, SO YOU DON'T LOSE THE LINKS!I've already posted my reasons for the HC1-E revision, and am presenting this as an alternative option. I think both are good choices.
Revisions :
1 - Optimized Steam Engines (Lighter Steam Engines): (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7445379#msg7445379)Chiefwaffles
1 - Standardized HC1-E Manufacturing (Cheaper HC1-E's): Chiefwaffles
1 - (Andres)Cheaper Frost Towers: Andres
0 - (Roboson)Reverse fireball:
1 - (10ebbor10)Magic Condensor : 10ebbor10
0 - (RAM)Summon water:
0 - (RAM)Dogwizard Staves:
0 - (RAM)College of mathemagical manipulation, methods, and misuse:
Orders :
2 - Operation Exhaustion : 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles
Post by: Roboson on May 06, 2017, 03:27:29 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 06, 2017, 03:28:44 am
Just want to point that out.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 06, 2017, 04:38:38 am
Quote
The magic condenser proposed by ebbor is a cheaper steam engine (I think) and more power.
Cheaper, Lighter, more power, more durable.
All the issues with our steam engine can be tied to the same specific problem, hence why I'm comfortable we can make big changes without being in trouble.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 06, 2017, 04:50:00 am
Post by: andrea on May 06, 2017, 04:54:56 am
Quote
Revisions :
1 - Standardized HC1-E Manufacturing (Cheaper HC1-E's): Chiefwaffles
1 - (Andres)Cheaper Frost Towers: Andres
0 - (Roboson)Reverse fireball:
2 - (10ebbor10)Magic Condensor : 10ebbor10, Andrea
0 - (RAM)Summon water:
0 - (RAM)Dogwizard Staves:
0 - (RAM)College of mathemagical manipulation, methods, and misuse:
Orders :
2 - Operation Exhaustion : 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles
Well, he specifies that it is cheaper because it doesn't need to mount the cooling loop and therefore saves metal. Less metal means lighter as well. Plus, more powerful can mean a smaller more compact design for the same power I guess?
Also, I really really want that frost condenser spell to work. Will be very useful in all steam techs.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 06, 2017, 04:59:39 am
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on May 06, 2017, 08:00:44 am
Quote
Revisions :
1 - Standardized HC1-E Manufacturing (Cheaper HC1-E's): Chiefwaffles
1 - (Andres)Cheaper Frost Towers: Andres
0 - (Roboson)Reverse fireball:
3 - (10ebbor10)Magic Condensor : 10ebbor10, Andrea, Stabby
0 - (RAM)Summon water:
0 - (RAM)Dogwizard Staves:
0 - (RAM)College of mathemagical manipulation, methods, and misuse:
Orders :
3 - Operation Exhaustion : 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles, Stabby
You know we should had ignored anti-magic shells and made magic-seeking shells instead. That would have equalized the playing field.
Post by: andrea on May 06, 2017, 08:13:36 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 06, 2017, 08:28:47 am
Post by: Andres on May 06, 2017, 08:29:44 am
You know we should had ignored anti-magic shells and made magic-seeking shells instead. That would have equalized the playing field.Our cannons work with magic. Our mist is made of magic. Our Frost Towers are made of magic.
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on May 06, 2017, 08:38:06 am
It's not like they are going to do a 180 and 90 degree turns, they would drift mod flight towards magic sources in front of them.You know we should had ignored anti-magic shells and made magic-seeking shells instead. That would have equalized the playing field.Our cannons work with magic. Our mist is made of magic. Our Frost Towers are made of magic.
Post by: Roboson on May 06, 2017, 11:07:04 am
QuoteRevisions :
1 - Standardized HC1-E Manufacturing (Cheaper HC1-E's): Chiefwaffles
1 - (Andres)Cheaper Frost Towers: Andres
0 - (Roboson)Reverse fireball:
3 - (10ebbor10)Magic Condensor : 10ebbor10, Andrea, Stabby
0 - (RAM)Summon water:
0 - (RAM)Dogwizard Staves:
0 - (RAM)College of mathemagical manipulation, methods, and misuse:
Orders :
3 - Operation Exhaustion : 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles, Stabby
You know we should had ignored anti-magic shells and made magic-seeking shells instead. That would have equalized the playing field.
that... is actually a good idea.
So I'm going to go ahead and post this now. It probably won't get enough support to win out for this round, but perhaps in the future. Since we don't seem to care about the biggest issue (their lucky strike), but do care about firepower. So I'm going to to post something that may give us a similar advantage.
Anti-Invocation Directional SystemSpoiler: Visual Aid (click to show/hide)
The Anti-Invocation Directional System (AIDs for short) is our nation's response to lucky strike. Utilizing our anti-magic crystal technology, we've designed a type of anti-magic homing system. The system is contained with a modified rifled artillery shell. Each AIDs Shell has several antimagic charms around the diameter surrounded by a reinforced tube. These tubes are held within the shell until the shell begins its descent, which forces them to deploy. The tubes are designed to be aerodynamic, almost like small wings, so as to not impede the flight of the shell, but instead, guide it. The antimagic crystals held within give off small amounts of magic energy, which then forces the shell to turn slightly. This occurs until all the crystals are giving off the same amount of energy, which only occurs when the shell is perfectly on-target.
The magic seeking shell design I posted a while back. Its frighteningly simple as it relies on math more than it does on magic. Its also not a whole lot different than our anti-magic shells.
Edit: Its basically a rowboat. If you paddle properly on the right, you turn left (and vice versa). However, if you paddle in reverse on the right, you turn right. This system operates like that. By putting a tiny bit of reverse thrust on one side, you can turn a moving object by a few degrees without effecting velocity by a noticeable amount.
Post by: RAM on May 06, 2017, 04:02:51 pm
Post by: Roboson on May 06, 2017, 05:18:44 pm
As for the magic interference, it's true that fireballs may draw it off course, but as long as their mages keep casting their wind spell to protect against out longbows, it should work. Their antimagic seems to not stop their spells, but does prevent our casting. So that won't be an issue.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 06, 2017, 06:20:08 pm
We get the details of the condensing system worked out.
It certainly took some complicated spellwork; the spell needs both the input of the outside temperature, the temperature of the metal it's engraved in, and the target temperature. It needed a rather complex formula to govern the intensity of the spell based on these inputs and a number of safeties to prevent it from cracking or freezing parts of the machine it shouldn't.
The result is a more efficient steam engine. This increases the devices reliability because the pipes no longer need to dip into the ocean, and the weight by a small degree due to the smaller amount of metal components required. The colder steam creates a low-pressure area in the condensor that draws more steam in, so the engine doesn't have to actively push the fluid through and more energy can be spent driving the turbine.
The net gain from all this is our SPB's will now outpace Moskurg ships by a non-negligable amount, even though they still match us for range. As a bonus, we've also applied this spell inscription to our HC1-E's, allowing them to cool off quicker and fire at an increased rate. Because steam needs to exit the cannon to get the most velocity for the shot, we can't use this to reclaim the steam for the cannon, however.
The inscription requires the complex spellwork to be engraved into the metal by hand in an intensive, length process that only skilled metalsmiths are able to pull off. The engraving is then filled in with gold, allowing the magic to be held within.
Curiously, we discover by accident that a completed circle, or "circuit", allows the spell enchantment to remain on the weapon indefinitely. Breaking this circuit causes the magic to dissipate.
The enchantment is not immune to anti-magic effects. Very Expensive
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 06, 2017, 06:27:23 pm
Furthermore, we have a foothold in enchantments and magical circuits, which should be useful for some pretty cool designs in the future.
I still would have preferred a bigger focus on weight reduction, but I seriously cannot complain at all with how this turned out.
Post by: andrea on May 06, 2017, 06:45:30 pm
Anyway, the result is excellent. I suggest next time to experiment with copper instead of gold for the circuit and to replace the fireball spell with an inscribed one as well, so that we don't need mages to man the cannons.
which leads the way to steam rifles for our army! we have a frost spell to keep it cool so the soldier doesn't burn his back with the boiler. we have gun experience. And we no longer have the need to have a mage do the casting. All we need to do to turn our cannons into rifles is make everything smaller! ( oh, and inscribe a summon water spell, of course. can't have a water cart after each soldier)
Post by: RAM on May 06, 2017, 07:51:30 pm
How about this for a design: Gem-fuelled flame-wand. We revised our notes from reverse-engineering fireballs from our wand and inverted the process to create a wand of our own. We refined the pattern as much as possible using mathemagical know-how and magic-materials, such as circuits, gem-sustained crystals, and the work on the forever frost tower's fixed magical workings. We then added a gem that can store magic for prolonged periods of time to supply the wand with power. The difficult part is to refine the design to the point at which the wand can be operated by a mundane soldier. To do this we are reviewing the idea of living magic by reviewing the method by which firewasps are alive. There would be a second gem hosting a summoned magical entity that can manipulate the magic through the wand's spell-work. It would be conditioned to be loyal, and most captures would occur due to enemy antimagic which would likely kill the magical entity rendering the wand non0functional. The wand would recognise the person wielding it and could potentially form a friendship with them, so transferring these might be difficult, but it would prevent misfiring, as many users are likely to be uttering the command word simultaneously. Fortunately, we unearthed a powerful and swift command word from the noted of the original excavation: "pew". We are aiming for low-costs, so will be starting with cheaper materials and reducing the power of the spell as needed rather than looking into more powerful options that higher-grade materials might offer. Finally, we are looking into a design that more easily lines-up with the wielder's vision and is less-likely to fall from their grasp, the test subjects, for reasons we have been completely unable to extrapolate, have begun referring to these new wands as "Sci-fi Pistols"...
Post by: Roboson on May 06, 2017, 09:52:03 pm
Wouldn't rifles still need a wizard to invoke a fireball?
Curiously, we discover by accident that a completed circle, or "circuit", allows the spell enchantment to remain on the weapon indefinitely. Breaking this circuit causes the magic to dissipate.
The enchantment is not immune to anti-magic effects. Very Expensive
We've stumbled upon a golden discovery here. If we can apply this to fireball/wall, we have an endless energy source for everything.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 06, 2017, 09:57:29 pm
Use our magic circuits (which is 100% what Arstotzkan "enchantments" are) to give our shells the destructive power of fireballs.
Autocannons. (Name mildly misleading) or "HC1-A". Or "HC3".
Cannons with the internal spells automated, making it easy for any soldier to activate it. This frees up our apprentices for other things, potentially makes cannons cheaper??, and is a step towards fully automation for cannons.
@RAM: I really think you're putting too much on the "spark of life" thing. Giving it to inanimate objects is hard enough, but making it intelligent? That'd be extraordinarly difficult. We should start small with that stuff.
Anywhoo, another plan!
1.) Fix Anti-magic shells (by design, with some improvements to the original design. This should be easy to do since having a failed design under our belt will no doubt be worth a ton when it comes to designing a new, fixed version. Also enchantment/magic circuits should help here.)
2a.) Crystal Armor (Revision. This should go first if on our ships - we can outfit our ships with Crystal plating that won't disappear easily due to the range of our naval battles. If this goes after anchored crystal then we can look into Crystal plating for our troops, our cannons, etc...)
2b.) Anchored Crystal (I'd really like to use our crystal weapons again, and this would make crystal plating much more viable at land. Should be more easier with the magic circuit stuff?)
3.) Autocannons + improvements to expense and range.
I think we need a better name for
Post by: RAM on May 06, 2017, 10:29:32 pm
Enchribing? Inscribing
I suppose that making a best-friend gun would be a bit much, but rote-teaching the thing to cast a spell might work.
And I do not see that we can make spells cast with circuits, not yet. They sustain an enchantment, not cause it to repeat on command.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 06, 2017, 10:47:45 pm
About the other circuit stuff: Hence why it would be something we do. It's easy enough that it can be done as a smaller part of a bigger design.
Anyways. An alternative design that uses simpler techniques that we already know to make something vaguely resembling a "gun". Hell, we could probably try designing this next design phase if we get good rolls and are okay with using a revision. I feel like Evicted would hate us for trying to make guns in the year 931, though.
Future Design: AS-HRW1 "Firerod"
Magic is something that only our magic users, and that's not okay. Imagine the potential if every Arstotzkan could wield magic. This project promises to provide that, or at least the beginnings.
At its core, the Firerod is our own wand of fire. The device is simple - a small chamber vaguely similar to our HC series that'd fit in the hands of a human is equipped with a handle. A gem of similar construct (but less quality for expense reasons) to our anti-magic charm is then inserted into a designated slot in the device, covering the barrel. This gem is, at creation, charged with a large amount of magical energy. The gem is completely inert to external influences of magic, like the anti-magic charm, though some mathemagicians have theorized that if the gems were given an absorbing quality similar to our charms, they could regenerate on the field. But that's a topic to address at a much later date.
A magic circuit created that stretches from the handle to where the gem slot is provides the triggering mechanism. Pressure applied to the part of the circuit on the handle is turned into extremely minute amounts of magical energy that's just enough to "instruct" the gem to release its energy in the form of a fireball spell, propelling the fireball out of the barrel and towards the Firerod's target. The gem is depleted and the soldier holding the firerod takes out the depleted gem and inserts a charged one.
Each soldier also carries around ten of these small gems on their person. They're instructed to keep depleted gems, as recharging gems is easier than manufacturing, and our Mages and Apprentices on the field can easily recharge the gems themselves.
The result is a devastating weapon - no longer will fireballs be restricted to our mages. Regular soldiers can use them on the field with almost no training and our mages can focus on other tasks.
AS-Hybrid Ranged Weapon 1 "Firerod"
Oh yeah. Evicted, does the enchantment/circuit invented in the latest revision allow for our steam engines to be left alone, once started, by apprentices and mages? I'm assuming that it makes maintenance easier but the whole thing isn't based off of the circuit yet.
So, on that note, unless Evicted says that yes it does make the steam engines run without supervision...
Future Revision: Autonomous Steam Engines
Our Steam Engines currently require a mage or apprentice to run them. This isn't acceptable! Our mathemagicians tell us that our battle effectiveness rating could be drastically increased if these mages actually participated in the naval battles instead of toiling away in the steam rooms!
So, using the knowledge gained from the magic circuits already present in steam engines, we automate the whole process. The magic circuit will keep the spells in the steam engine running indefinitely once a mage starts it. This allows a ship's mage to only be required to work on the engine when starting it, and for the rest of the ship's voyage the mage can focus on helping our forces in battle.
Post by: RAM on May 06, 2017, 11:22:49 pm
I did a thing of the gun I proposed, sort of, earlier. would like to get the control gem out as progress towards wilful magic and a method of mundane-operated magic.
And I am just saying this to get it out of the way in advance. I dislike the acronyms. I have suffered under many acronyms in my time and feel they are resorted to too casually. The A.S. is only useful to EvictedSaint. The H.R.W. seems difficult to keep track of. Should a designation-line start with "hybrid" and do we really need to mention that it is a weapon? I am probably missing some great reference that makes H.R.W. awesome, but I would feel more comfortable with something like mundane caster of fire(M.C.F.) so we can clearly see the difference between mundane-operated, wizard-operated, self-operated... Casters(rays), hurlers(arcs), sprayers(flamethrower), pokers... And then fire, cold, acid, lust, lightning, antimagic, crystal... could all be elements...
Not that I wish do dispute the use of acronyms, I am just finding it a little difficult to recall what each proposal does since the acronyms arrived. Wanted to get an argument out on the topic rather than let it keep mildly irritating me forever.
Self Casting Implement - Field incarnation Hand Cannon(Sci-fi hand cannon).
Post by: Roboson on May 06, 2017, 11:32:12 pm
What we need for Ice Age Victory:
1) giant crystal domes (1 design, 2-3 revisions)
2) Sustained fireball heat (1 revision)
3) magic crops (1-2 revisions)
4) Better Frost towers (1 design, 1-2 revisions)
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 06, 2017, 11:54:13 pm
Where are we on the whole, freeze the world plan? Because it seems to me that we're much closer to that than we are to flat out winning the war.
What we need for Ice Age Victory:
1) giant crystal domes (1 design, 2-3 revisions)
2) Sustained fireball heat (1 revision)
3) magic crops (1-2 revisions)
4) Better Frost towers (1 design, 1-2 revisions)
5) heated armor suits for our soldiers so we can defend against them as they try and stop us.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 07, 2017, 12:59:06 am
I (obviously) personally like it. It gives a slightly modern twinge to our magitech designs.
Also.
Future Design: Mega Tower of Frost (Name Pending)
The first part of this design is simple. Access the technologies and techniques used to decrease the cost and skill required to operate the small frost towers.
Next: Use this knowledge to scale up the frost tower. It shall be built as a magnificent monument in the center of Arstotzka.
Finally: Scale up the tower to be able to reach as far as possible. Especially Moskurg towns. Leave a relatively small area around the tower untouched so we don't freeze over our citizens.
Moskurg will feel true coldness. This will reduce their will to fight. As the citizens see their families freeze and their food sources fail, they wonder why Moskurg truly bothers to fight. Moskurgians that are moving supplies will be forced to operate during the day to prevent frostbite. Sources of water will freeze over, soldiers moving to the battlefield will die from overexposure.
Arstotzka will bring an ice age to this continent, and make it our home.
Post by: RAM on May 07, 2017, 01:02:55 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 07, 2017, 06:43:10 am
I could see a directed frost tower working better for that. also, I would expect the result to be "Nobody can live here, all industry and combat in the region ends." but some personal and localised heating devices could help with that. Still, a full-blown metal-mining industry is very large thing to provide heating for...
To paraphrase President Eden, as long as we hit them harder we win, even if we both die.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 08, 2017, 01:44:27 pm
Spoiler: Future Designs (click to show/hide)
Post by: evictedSaint on May 08, 2017, 08:27:23 pm
It does not snow in the jungle this year.
Freezing rains still pelt Arstotzkans, and a chill still permeates the air, but snow doesn't touch the ground and Moskurg soldiers survive - albeit uncomfortably. No longer shivering at their posts they do a better job of stopping Arstotzkan raids, whereas Moskrugs new policy of firebombing sleeping soldiers is still effective. Both sides still lose men, but Moskurg loses fewer and has a clear advantage.
A warm wind blows from the south, meeting the cool air from the north. This causes light, warm rain to fall on the Moskurg side of the battle lines, but the truly freezing rain is still on the Arstotzkans. The jungle quickly turns to mud everywhere and battles resume with a wet, bloody intensity. We make limited use of our new Equalizer Anti-Magic shells; only a single HC1-E can use them, and if the shell jams then the cannon is ruined. We manage to land one close enough to a Moskurg artillery piece that the magic powering it falters and it falls comically short of our lines, but that's about it for effect. The barrel cooling enchantments are far more beneficial; with a cooler barrel we can fire our HC1-E's even faster. They still don't make up for being fewer in number than Moskurg's ballistas, but they do close the gap. The regular HC1's struggle to match range and are often doused with their disgusting, primitive fireballs, killing crew and burning down the wooden carriages. Our Mage Hunter troops are ordered to get close during the shelling and use their specialty arrows on the ballistas [Order: 1, 3 = 1] but the jungle is too sparse for decent cover and once our elite troopers are out in front of our lines ballista bolts home in. They're slaughtered, and it hurts the moral of our men to see them fall so easily. It's a close battle, and we might have fought them to a stalemate and ended on the back foot, but their skirmish advantage ultimately sees our battlelines crumble and we are forced to pull back, especially with al-Mutriqa leading his Black Phantasms against our troops. Our towers are disassembled and reassembled further back to prevent Moskurg from claiming them, but we're now constructing defenses on frozen taiga soil. We've been pushed out of the jungle.
The Theatre Commander once again asks for more HC1-E's. They're good guns, and the frost enchantments make them better than Moskurg's artillery, but we just can't field enough of them. If that's not enough, then perhaps you could find some way to claim the ocean and use our ships to bombard their lines from the shore? Any way you can find some advantage or change the nature of the battle would be welcome, because our men are now constructing barricades on our home soil.
Moskurg has gained control of jungle. If they hold it for one turn, they may harvest it for resources.
The mountains are still a frozen hell hole. The warm desert winds howl up the sides of the mountains, but they are dissipated before they can swim through the peaks. Moskurg makes a vain attempt to charge up the mountain sides, but our height advantage and freezing cold keep them at bay. We may now utilize the mines deep underground, and Myark stands firmly atop the castle overlooking the Moskurg desert sands.
Our Theatre Commander is proud to report he has taken back the mountains and kept it secure. He hopes he's done his homeland proud. Glory to Arstotzka!
Arstotzka now controls the mountain. They may harvest it for resources.
We are pushed back out of the plains this year.
Skirmishes are much more even; with the wide open plains we can generally see Moskurg horse grenadiers coming and scramble a defense. Fire still hurts, but we kill more when we see them coming. Our own men still creep into Moskurg camps and snipe away. Over all, it's fairly even between the two of us.
The desert winds howl across the flat ground, and snow now only falls in the winter. It's not as cold now, and though Moskurg soldiers still shiver like terrified cats they still fight and survive the night. Across the open fields artillery reigns absolutely supreme. Charges across the flat ground result universally in death for both side, and soon the land is marred with craters and trenches. Wooden stakes line the land between the two sides and men hide below the ground. It rains freezing rain non-stop on our side of the line, flooding our trenches and making our men sick. Their artillery still outranges most of ours, so the HC1-E's are used primarily to maintain as large a distance between the two lines as possible. The raid from last year in the nearby village hurt our food supplies, and our Dogwood mages resort to growing vegetables and grains non-stop to help feed our hungry troops, mitigating that effect. Fire blasts and ballista bolts have a tendency to kill men who don't hug the southern wall of the trench, and after a year we're run ragged. Another year of this and we'll be forced to retreat back north. Arstotzka is on the back foot.
Our Theatre Commander is not happy. This 'hiding in holes' business is for cowards, but he can't charge men to their deaths. Longer-range artillery would let us creep south, but at this point he'd just settle for more HC1-E's.
Neither side gains ground in the Plains.
To the north, Moskurg's ships find themselves cut off from their home. Their ships make a valiant effort to sail back south, and only a few make it. We chase them out and sink the majority of their ships.
Arstotzka gains control in the Northern Sea.
In the western and eastern seas, our battles stall. Our Steam Ships can hold their own, and they're just a bit faster than Moskurg's ships so they can get into favorable positions, but the range is equal between the two sides. Once most of the Steam Ships are gone, the advantage shifts towards Moskurg. At that point their fleet is too depleted to win the day, so battles generally end in stalemates.
Neither side gains ground in the Eastern and Western seas.
It is 932, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 932 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Behavior Rules. Please Read.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 08, 2017, 08:49:10 pm
AS-HA1 "Onslaught"
What if, thought the Project Lead earlier, We had more artillery?
With this genius idea in mind, he sprinted to his office where he gathered his subordinates and they got to work. The AS-HA1 "Onslaught" is a culmination of all our efforts so far. The HA1-E is an amazing creation. Recent developments have increased its fire rate, it can fire at Extreme Range, and it has great accuracy, is more reliable and is simply better than our HA1. The HA2 could be useful, but the incompetence of now-
Our regained plentiful metal supply make the construction of the AS-HA1 Onslaught an easy task. High-quality metal is able to be used for every construction task and standardized construction equipment given to every craftsmen drastically reduces the time to manufacture. Ideally, these improvements should radically decrease the price of the AS-HA1 to a point where we can wheel them out en masse throughout the fields.
The range is increased via much longer barrels and further "enchantments" increasing the power of the spells used and therefore the pressure applied to the shells.
But perhaps the most important upgrade is in how its used. Our apprentices have been reduced to nothing more than glorified artillery operators. By "storing" magical energy in crystals similar to our anti-magic charms but without the magic absorption and use of our new "enchantments", mundane soldiers can now operate the artillery with ease. The energy storage crystals, or "batteries" as called by the project members, are replaceable, but they hold enough of a charge that a single apprentice can handle extreme amounts of artillery by simply charging each artillery piece when it runs out of energy.
TL;DR: +range, +cheap, +mundane use. All based on previous designs and revisions, so the design should be relatively easy to accomplish. And "cheap" is made much easier with mountain metal.
In revision, we should look towards either fixing the Anti-magic shell (Evicted, is this possible? Can we fix the Equalizer shell in an revision?), fixing the inevitable bugs with the design, or gaining an advantage in Skirmishing. Alternatively, I bet they'll be upgrading that frost tower counter of theirs this round.
Possible revisions: (not listed in any particular order)
1.) Frost tower upgrade: Counter their counter to our frost towers.
2.) Skirmish revision: Help our troops in Skirmish phase
3.) Anchored crystal
4.) Fixing bugs with the design this phase.
Quote
Designs
1 - AS-HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 08, 2017, 08:52:18 pm
Shrouder Shell: As neat as our current anti-magic shells are, these are better. To put it simply, when they impact, they explode into a large cloud of fog. Fog that absorbs magic(such as Lucky Strike, anti-magic staff magic, and wind magic, among other things) and uses that to expand.
I'm thinking we use our revision to make the HC1-E cheaper, using our metal bonus.
The fact that the Shrouder Shell makes it hard to target foes won't matter if we use wide-area attacks. We will need to do something to make our magic work in the fog later, but not right now. These shells are meant to take their artillery out of the picture, we can use our normal shells on their formations.
Quote
Designs:
1 - Shrouder Shell: FallacyofUrist
1 - AS-HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles
Spoiler: Future Design to deal with frost tower counter, might be better now though (click to show/hide)
Post by: Light forger on May 08, 2017, 09:07:12 pm
So named for their distinctive noise this conical rounds designed to be fired by both the HC-1 and HC-E and, have a small infused quartz gemstone placed in the back of the round. Once exposed to enough heat(like that of our cannons firing) the gemstone is enchanted to produce a long lasting powerful jet of flame. The jet of flame help to propel the shell granting it significantly increased range. After the shell hits something the gemstone will shatter and release all of it's remaining magical energy in a single blast. This explosion, provided the shell didn't travel too far is more then able to incinerate a man wholesale if he is within a few feet of the round. As added befit the shell with also send burning hot iron fragments everywhere and causing multiple fires or igniting Moskurg's greek fire jars. The gems are made by a mage enchanting a gemstone with a prestored spell(in this cause an extremely modified fire wall spell) and then infusing it with magic roughly equal to a dozen for so casings of fireball.
Posting this again because I still think it's our best option but, don't worry I will stop after this turn. Any who we need artillery our commanders aren't asking for anti-magic stuff they are asking for better guns.
Quote
Designs:
1 - Shrouder Shell (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447733#msg7447733): FallacyofUrist
1 - AS-HA1 "Onslaught" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447735#msg7447735): Chiefwaffles
1 - Flameshrieker Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447746#msg7447746): Lightforger
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 08, 2017, 09:14:55 pm
That being said, I do agree with the idea of better artillery. But better damage isn't what we need. We need cheap first and foremost. Then everything else.
Ideally we only want to be using one action on artillery. Having to spend a design for better damage + range then spending a revision on expense simply isn't viable. That revision could be much better used elsewhere. I still like the idea of Flameshrieker Shells, but they're improving an area that doesn't really need improvement instead of areas that actually do need improvement.
Post by: Roboson on May 08, 2017, 09:16:30 pm
Deadly Spiders
After a long hiatus, we return to summoning swarms of insects to harass our enemies. This time instead of wasps, we chose a deadly species of spider. This particular species of spider delivers a potent venom that can be fatal if untreated, but is otherwise incredibly painful and dehabilitating. What's more, these spiders can be controlled in a similar manner to our wasps, which allow us to send them against our enemy during all phases of battle.
I proposed a similar design a while back (it was a lot better, but I couldn't find it) Basically this will give us an advantage at all periods of battle, especially if we can get the venom to be potent enough. Who needs range? Spiders are at all ranges.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 08, 2017, 09:18:44 pm
Post by: RAM on May 08, 2017, 09:19:42 pm
There are seveal elements to this
A basic circuit to create a geomagically perfect crystal in the shape of a mould.(mathematgic and crystal expertise)
A crystal conjured by a circuit into a pice of cloth. When empowered the circuit is encased and protected by the crystal, holding the circuit in a stasis induced by the lack of atmosphere...(circuits)
The above crystal being invoked with a basic ability to follow impulses, in this case commands to activate or absorb a circuit's power.(fire wasps, crystal expertise, this design action)
Fine adjustments to crystal summoning.(crystal expertise, mathemagics)
Layered metal to prevent all the impurities from being in the same place.(Common sense, broadswords?)
Fine temerature control.(forever frost.)
Magic storage in gems.(permanent crystals)
We create a number of circuits to produce temporary crystal moulds for the various components of our steam technology. Boilers, turbines, pipes, shafts... Which can be filled, cooled, and then an interior circuit is removed, opening space for a new layer of metal that has been cooled to a precise temperature to flow while not completely melting the outer layer. the circuits can be removed because a 'living crystal' and 'storage gem' have been iplanted into the ircuits. The living crystal is imbued into the circuits as, in effect, a part of its body, and it can move the magic around, activating the circuits to summon crystal moulds and deactivating them by transferring the magic from a circuit into the storgage gem. Given that a circuit can be made top incorporate mathemagical components, the crystal forms generated through them can be made to be perfect geomagic shapes, whihc produces perfect spheres for weakness-free boilers and perfectly identical moulds for cannon barrels and ammunition. And finally, given that the magic is transferred between a storage gem and back again, only very little magic is lost in the process, so a wiard is only required rarely to recharge the gem, while a separate circuit is put into place to cover the more precise circuitry(barring the living crystal and storage gem for control and resupply purposes) with a protective layer of crystal to prevent it from succumbing to wear-and-tear.
In effect, this produces a forge that can, with the press of a marked panel on a summoned crystal, produce or remove a perfect mould. Complete with removable layers to produce a more reliable layer-forged-metal. And powered by mundane-operable controls so that our industry can function solely based on occasional visits from academy students. It allows us to finally be rid of the problems of ammunition mismatches, the vast bulk of exploding boilers, issues with ill-fitting turbines, time and dificulty involved in hand-forging moulds that can rarely be used more than once, and all with the now plentiful metals from the newly-conquered regions.
Makes steam-cannons and steam-engines, stronger, cheaper... better!
Design: antiluck charm
Knowing that Keggers lack the skill to shoot straight, and the ancient texts suggesting the existence of fortune magic, we have concluded that the Keggers are manipulating fortune. It is also noted that it is not actually possible to make weapons which are so accurate at such range with such projectiles.
Concluding that there is a magical means of manipulating luck, we have poured over our antimagic research and every mathemagical analysis that we have ever done with a certainty that there is a fortune component to magic and that it must be found. After spending months with massive prototype antimagic charms modified and focused, aiming exclusively at specific magical elements we have finally distilled the 'luck' aspect to magic. A thorough analysis leads us to believe that magical fortune is reciprocal. That is, it is shared by all entities influence by it. A gambler who wins a coin toss and their opponent who loses are both subject to the same 'luck' event, one receiving fortune and the other misfortune as parts of a single instance of fortune. Likewise, a wholly beneficial act, such as fair weather, Is distributed amongst all people who wanted a picnic, and opposed to everyone who prefers moody weather... Thus, it seems impossible to benefit from good fortune at the expense of another unless they are also subject to ill fortune.
We do not know anything about actually controlling it in any conventional sense, but we have specialised versions of our antimagic charms that instead of draining magic they only drain fortune. 'Luck', be it good or ill, becomes impossible within the area, which has been greatly increased over the now-old charms of before, and can protect an entire cannon and its crew. While we have concerns as to what this will do to morale, as exceptional successes often support the mood, it has become clear that the common Kegger is just too lucky...
Pillar of unmagic
By focusing all of our mathemagical and trigothaumical developments, along with our experience of the forever frost towers, we construct a great tower with an intricate core of quartz, with dimond studding on key locations allowing exposed magical pathways which permit fine control of the effect. This is, in essence, a giant antimagic charm, but capable of detailed attunement. It will, with careful handling and a large amount of time spent measuring its effects and trial-and-erroring precisely what is needed, be able to select a single spell and absorb all instances of it within a single theatre of battle.
Quote
1 AS-HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447733#msg7447733
1 Shrouder Shell: FallacyofUrist http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447735#msg7447735
1 Flameshrieker Shells: Lightforger http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447746#msg7447746
0 Deadly Spiders: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447753#msg7447753
0 Anti-magic mosquitos:
4 Spell-forged Steamworks: RAM4 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761
2 antiluck charm: RAM2 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761
3 Pillar of unmagic: RAM3 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 08, 2017, 09:33:37 pm
They have an advantage in skirmishes with our men.
We want to in the future be able to spot for our artillery.
Revealing mist is a variant (not a replacement) for Obscuring Mist. The reason for it being a revision is simple: All we need to do is "mark" the enemy. The mist is, in a way, embedded with an element similar to that of our anti-magic charms. Yet this aspect of Revealing Mist is so tiny that it's just attracted to sources of magic. The mist will then be attracted towards magical presences. One may think that this would only be useful in identifying enemy mages, and that person would be wrong and needs to be failed out of the Academy. See, every living being has a magical "spark" to them. Mages just have a much bigger one. So the mist will tend to gravitate towards them more, but in the end all humans are marked with the tell-tale sign of a vaguely human-shaped obvious cloud of mist.
Of course, for the time being, Revealing Mist does not differentiate between Moskurgian and Arstotzkan life, but it's easy for magic-users to manipulate the spell to avoid casting it over our own troop positions.
TL;DR: Make a variant of our mist where it's attracted to humans and will clump around them.
It's a revision, will help greatly during Skirmish, and will help our anti-mage units. Also has potential for the future when it comes to developing super-extreme range, I think.
Future upgrades to this:
-Disrupt: Marked people will become soaking wet, will find it hard to move, and will have obscured vision due to the mist clouding around them. Logically, this should be a part of Revealing Mist but I took it out to keep it simple and fitting for a Revision.
-IFF: Make it differentiate between us and them.
-Long-range: Make some kind of "beacon"/"flare" thing
Future Design/Revision(?): Flare
This is simple. A fireball spell modified to travel far into the sky and become extremely bright and illuminating. The fireball can also be configured to appear as a
The advantages are extremely simple.
Communication - Color coding can allow squadrons to communicate. Charge, attack, reinforcement, etc.
Fighting @ Night - The flare will illuminate the ground below it, giving us a light advantage over them.
Artillery Spotting - A color can be designated as an artillery flare; wizards can shoot the flare over an enemy target and our artillery can easily find and annihilate the target.
I actually really like this one. If it could fit as a revision, it may be the best option.
EDIT: I 100% think Flare should be next round's design (maybe with some extra features to make it worth a design action) with longer-range artillery this action. We'd have super-extreme range artillery! Imagine the possibilities!
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 08, 2017, 11:05:49 pm
None of that multiple voting nonsense. Secondly, there was an agreement to limit clutter by allowing no more than 2 designs per person.
In any case, it seems like more artillery is the way to go. It will allow us to make our ships cheaper, and dominate Moskurg on land.
Quote
2 AS-HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, 10ebbor10 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447733#msg7447733
1 Shrouder Shell: FallacyofUrist http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447735#msg7447735
1 Flameshrieker Shells: Lightforger http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447746#msg7447746
0 Deadly Spiders: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447753#msg7447753:
1 Spell-forged Steamworks: RAM http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761
1 Pillar of unmagic: RAM http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 08, 2017, 11:52:34 pm
Fire Ball Staff: This staff contains an incomplete engraving that draws magic from a magic charged gem and fires a fireball out of the tip. The engraving can be completed by inserting a "fire" key containing the missing part. The gem can be removed and replaced to allow a new fireball to be thrown. The staff is designed to be usable by non mages, with the gems recharged between combat by apprentices.
I don't like the spell forged steamworks because it seems too ambitious. Maybe we should look into crystal and spell assistance in forging before making a competently automated factory?
Post by: RAM on May 09, 2017, 12:25:42 am
Okay, first of.First: It is not nonsense, I explained the rationale behind it a while back, and even after your edits I literally still had multiple votes so I have no idea what the rules are supposed to be now... I like 4,3,2 weighted voting, so I am using it. I also like proposals not being voted for by their submitters, but that is less of an issue with a 4,3,2 system and if people are inconsistent with it then it does skew the results, so I gotta be willing to vote my own stuff if I wanna be competitive. Also I am being blatantly rebellious because the voting restrictions have been thrown away and now it is a free-for-all and nobody said I couldn't vote this way... And yes, I realise that voting this way is a breach of common sense, but my own common sense is some distance from where we currently are and this could actually work so, meh...
None of that multiple voting nonsense. Secondly, there was an agreement to limit clutter by allowing no more than 2 designs per person.
In any case, it seems like more artillery is the way to go. It will allow us to make our ships cheaper, and dominate Moskurg on land.Quote2 AS-HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, 10ebbor10 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447733#msg7447733
1 Shrouder Shell: FallacyofUrist http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447735#msg7447735
1 Flameshrieker Shells: Lightforger http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447746#msg7447746
0 Deadly Spiders: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447753#msg7447753:
1 Spell-forged Steamworks: RAM http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761
1 Pillar of unmagic: RAM http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761
Second: There was no such agreement. There were requests but it was never unanimous and there was very little reasoning given to justify it. A few people expressed a desire for it and I tried to comply, this time I decided not to. There is definitely insufficient consensus to go editing other people's votes over it. I have yet to see an instance where clutter of varying proposals has been an issue. Clutter of very similar proposals does have some issues with it however. Varying proposals people just don't vote for what they don't want. Similar stuff tends to dilute the votes of those who like one idea while another might remain concentrated and win even though it has less overall support, but we are voting as much as we like now so even that isn't much of a thing...
For a brief, glorious while people were generally not voting for their own stuff and voting only for one idea has been pretty consistent for the whole thing. Now the voting is all over the place, with people editing votes pretty much at random, and the whole thing is chaos and ridicule. If you want to fight for order, then you gotta have consice rules and a consensus. My proposed rules:
Each turn everyone gets three votes, one worth 4 points, one worth 3 pints, one worth 2 points, only one such vote can be granted to any one proposal.
A requiest can be made to fuse similar proposals, in which case the replacement proposal can be added to a separate sections of the voting and can be voted upon, these votes will not be counted unless all submitters of the replaced proposals agree to their proposal being replaced. If such agreement is forthcoming, then all votes of the replaced proposals will be added to the new proposal. If this results in multiple votes from a single party, then the lower-valued votes from that party will be removed and placed in a separate section to clarify that the vote is no longer cast.
4,3,2 get peopel what they need, a way to distinguish one proposal from another but stiull support all their most favourite picks. It discourages ties by being varied...
Well, yes, it is complicated and awkward, but it is a formal procedure to follow in the awkward event that someone thinks that two ideas are too similar. Having something formal should hopefully stop fights breaking out and it is probably ttoo unwieldy to use so it probably doesn't matter anyway, but could, theoretically, get a good outcome where two people's ideas are merged andthey get to keep all the votes...
I agree on the artillery, although something about skirmishes really ought to be done, and we need a good plant design that we can revise... I am inclined to revise the boats too, maybe we can just raise the sides to reduce the risk of flooding. It is far from perfect, but would get the worst of the issues off, except that their fire burns our wood... Ugh, so many designs that I am holding back on...
Quote
Designs!
2 AS-HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, 10ebbor10 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447733#msg7447733
1 Shrouder Shell: FallacyofUrist http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447735#msg7447735
1 Flameshrieker Shells: Lightforger http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447746#msg7447746
0 Deadly Spiders: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447753#msg7447753
0 Anti-magic mosquitos:
4 Spell-forged Steamworks: RAM4 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761
2 antiluck charm: RAM2 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761
3 Pillar of unmagic: RAM3 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761
0 Crystal Pyramid Bunker: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447865#msg7447865
0 Fire Ball Staff: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447865#msg7447865
Revisions!
0 Revealing Mist: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447772#msg7447772
0 Flare: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447772#msg7447772
Orders!
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 09, 2017, 12:43:58 am
Also, for Skirmish: I still say Revealing Mist or Flare. I really like Flare, actually. It's simple (Fireball: Swap power for range + colors + brightness) and helps us in many ways. But I'm leaving my argument for that after the revision phase and after we see how badly messed up our design inevitably will be.
Artillery is just simply the best bet right now. Disregarding range and even regarding Lucky Strike, our artillery is superior to theirs. If we were to spend a design on improving it we would be far ahead in the artillery game. I'm fairly convinced that while they've been able to keep up to us so far, but...
1.) Our artillery power has been in a way "saved up". The HC1-E has had a lot of improvements but it's still Very Expensive, so they haven't bothered countering it. Upgrading its range will suddenly beat all their artillery with one move. They'd have to upgrade a lot of things to beat the HA1. If it's successful, but let's not kid ourselves here.
2.) They're probably reaching the limits of their Ballistae. Chances are that we've put way more effort into the HC series, and while up to this point we've been on-and-off equal in the artillery game, there should be a point when it becomes way harder for them to upgrade than it will to us. Even with magic, there's only so much you can do to make a ballista bolt fly further.
Getting a Regular/Expensive HA1 will be amazing for us - we may actually start pushing back on the seas, first off. We've gone from disasterously losing every sea engagement to a stalemate. Upgrading artillery puts it on every boat, not just Fog-O-Wars. (Though I'm pretty sure the HC1-E is only fitted to Fog-O-Wars; our longboats get HC1's). So if we get the HA1 to be Regular/Expensive, every boat will get it, drastically improving our performance at sea and giving us the upper hand. If we begin winning at sea, we can then use our advantage in artillery to support our troops on land. I'm nearly positive that a successful artillery design will spell victory on the sea and force their attention there while we can do strictly land-based things.
Then, it'll also greatly help us at land. The plains we should be able to keep a stalemate instead of losing ground. Jungle... I dunno. It depends on how much new artillery matters there and what they do as their actions.
But then there's the revision. The flare I'm now confident will work as a revision. If we get a working HA1 and a flare, imagine what we can do. We'll have super extreme range! Our soldiers will be better at skirmishes thanks to communication and control over lighting! Even if we have to use our revision fixing the HA1, super extreme range will still help. Just not as much.
I didn't change anything other than the priority here. If you want to use the priority version that RAM used, just fix the votes for the Onslaught to use the same priority system that he used for his votes, and quote his votebox instead of mine.
Quote
Designs
2 AS-HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, 10ebbor10 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447733#msg7447733
1 Shrouder Shell: FallacyofUrist http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447735#msg7447735
1 Flameshrieker Shells: Lightforger http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447746#msg7447746
0 Deadly Spiders: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447753#msg7447753
0 Anti-magic mosquitos:
1 Spell-forged Steamworks: RAM http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761
1 Anti-luck charm: RAM http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761
1 Pillar of unmagic: RAM http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761
0 Crystal Pyramid Bunker: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447865#msg7447865
0 Fire Ball Staff: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447865#msg7447865
Revisions
0 Revealing Mist: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447772#msg7447772
0 Flare: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447772#msg7447772
Orders
EDIT: Oh yeah, also.
Future Design: Tower of Growth
When one apprentice stated "What if we just made a really tall tower then used dogwood wands from there?", our Project Lead was struck with brilliance. Sure, the apprentice may have been joking, but regardless! Our losses in the jungle can be attributed towards the fact that there actually wasn't any jungle, and the cold.
The cold is something that can be addressed later. The growth, however, is not.
First, what if we could apply jungle-like growths in all the battlefields? The plains would become heavy with overgrowth that changes every night but our soldiers always know the way through. The jungle would be restored, as would our fighting chances there. The Tower of Growth aims to implement this.
The concept for the Tower of Growth was called "a giant tree?" by another unnamed apprentice, who was later severely punished for questioning the Project Lead. Numerous mages assemble at the construction site as a giant dogwood core is grown over the course of anywhere from a few hours to several days (Our mathemagicians really don't know yet without
Not only does this destroy the Moskurgian advantage in every battlefield, but it gives us one we haven't seen before: Ultimate knowledge of the battlefield. We're the ones creating the battlefield. We know how to traverse it.
EDIT2:
Revision: SO1-AD 'Concussion'
Named for the effect it seems to give to those filthy Moskurgians.
(Anti-divination)
The SO1-AD is a modification of the SO1-AM Equalizer. Instead of using the extremely expensive charms, this uses the same kind of crystal used in anti-magic bombs and is hence much cheaper. This was tried in the design process for the Equalizer, but the design summary notes that there were issues with the cannon's spell setting off the unstable crystal used within.
The solution? Set the crystal to be used for one "magical wavelength", in a way. The Concussion's crystal interior, instead of absorbing magic and exploding, will reflect magic of the divination variety (thanks to precise mathemagics!) away. This causes immense pain in any divination casters nearby and disrupts divination magic in general. Unfortunately, the shell still won't explode in the sky. But it will "bury" itself into the ground thanks to its weight instead.
TL;DR: A repeat of our anti-divination designs. This is possible as a revision because it's just "Equalizer, but use antimagic-bomb-like crystal tuned to divination waves instead". The Equalizer was doing a ton of different things that didn't work in a revision, but this one does.
Revision: SO2-AM "Grounder"
1.) Use anti-magic bomb crystal instead of anti-magic charm gems -> Much cheaper; no longer National Effort.
2.) Utilize our circuits to "stabilize" the shell; the circuits are broken during firing but last long enough to prevent explosion in the barrel -> We can use anti-magic bomb crystal without it exploding in the barrel.
TL;DR: Bam. Cheaper because it's using crystal instead of charms. And because of our circuits, the crystal doesn't explode like it did in the design summary for the finished Equalizer and it will instead perform like it was supposed to - exploding into anti-magic shrapnel. All done in a very simple revision utilizing knowledge that we already have.
More detailed write-out for this one to come in Revision Phase.
Post by: Roboson on May 09, 2017, 01:34:51 am
Designs!
10000000 "What RAM Says": RAM http://www.I'mpresidentofArstozkabowbeforemeIruleinyourfacemajorityrulesthisisadictatorshiprulesdontmatteranarchyanarchyanarchy.msg7447761#msg7447761
Negative Infinity "What everyone else says: Roboson http://www.itdoesn'treallymatteratallwhatthosepeasantsthink.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761
1 Reason: Roboson http://www.thisisreallyajoke/butseriously/justvoteforyourownstuff/thesystemisn'tbroken.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 09, 2017, 01:41:01 am
Wait a second.
We've been trying to think of all these ways to shield our troops from enemy fire when we already have a spell for that. Firewall. Its disadvantage is cost + casting time. With all that we know about fire by now, we could get really good benefits on a revision to firewall to fix both of those things. A quick + cheap/Expensive Firewall means our troops have much better protection against enemy fireheh, no?
Post by: RAM on May 09, 2017, 02:08:34 am
I am going to go back over the first, ehh, hundred posts and see if anyone voted twice...
And I do not find anything, but I could have missed something. But it seems pretty clear that the intention was to find the one thing that each person was voting for. The whole "you can vote for multiple things" is completely fabricated at people's whims. My voting system is no different in that regard. So no, you are not entitled to arbitrarily change my votes. You may make an appeal for it to be different, but just changing other people's votes is completely unconscionable. For the most pressing issue, you claim that Iam voting equally for all three proposals, which clearly I am not. If you can't edit my votes accurately into your scheme then don't pretend that you can accurately predict what they would be if I were voting according to your own whimsy.
You can't single handedly change the voting system otherwise it would look like this:That is exactly what people have been doing by voting for more than one proposal at a time. It was done arbitrarily with no notable discussion. If we are going to say that no, in fact you can only vote for one thing, then fine. Ifyou can point out that it has always been that way, then I will concede that nothing has changed and we should default to tradition. If you can demonstrate the discussion in which such a scheme gained a general consensus, then I will concede that it is the will of the collective and adopt the new system. But citing me being a problem by changing my voting rules when such activity has occured, and clearly will continue to do so regardless of my own actions, is rather obviously inaccurate. But thankyou for pointing out why this sort of behaviour is a problem, I hope that we can come to some sort of agreement about either returning to the original system or adopting something better, but only with a consensus, and definitely not ever editing someone else's contribution to the voting tally to suit your personal whimsy.
Designs!
10000000 "What RAM Says": RAM http://www.I'mpresidentofArstozkabowbeforemeIruleinyourfacemajorityrulesthisisadictatorshiprulesdontmatteranarchyanarchyanarchy.msg7447761#msg7447761
Negative Infinity "What everyone else says: Roboson http://www.itdoesn'treallymatteratallwhatthosepeasantsthink.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761
1 Reason: Roboson http://www.thisisreallyajoke/butseriously/justvoteforyourownstuff/thesystemisn'tbroken.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761
Quote
Designs!
2.75 AS-HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, 10ebbor10 RAM.75 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447733#msg7447733
1 Shrouder Shell: FallacyofUrist http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447735#msg7447735
1 Flameshrieker Shells: Lightforger http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447746#msg7447746
0 Deadly Spiders: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447753#msg7447753
0 Anti-magic mosquitos:
1 Spell-forged Steamworks: RAM http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761
0 antiluck charm: RAM http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761
.5 Pillar of unmagic: RAM.5 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761
0 Crystal Pyramid Bunker: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447865#msg7447865
0 Fire Ball Staff: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447865#msg7447865
Revisions!
0 Revealing Mist: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447772#msg7447772
0 Flare: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447772#msg7447772
Orders!
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 09, 2017, 02:18:31 am
Quote
The whole "you can vote for multiple things" is completely fabricated at people's whims
It wasn't. It was part of the game from the beginning, and of the game before that, and of the game before that.
Quote
My voting system is no different in that regard
It is different in the notion that you are the only one using your voting system, whereas everyone uses the other system. You do not get to arbitrarily decide rules. Last time you brought up your proposal, everyone rejected it. This time, it's no different.
Oh, and there was an agreement to limit proposals to 2 votes to avoid cluttering up everything.
Post by: andrea on May 09, 2017, 02:20:52 am
QuoteThe whole "you can vote for multiple things" is completely fabricated at people's whims
It wasn't. It was part of the game from the beginning, and of the game before that, and of the game before that.
I don't remember that, actually.
Post by: Roboson on May 09, 2017, 02:22:33 am
QuoteThe whole "you can vote for multiple things" is completely fabricated at people's whims
It wasn't. It was part of the game from the beginning, and of the game before that, and of the game before that.
I don't remember that, actually.
Yeah if I recall correctly, for the longest time it was 1 vote per person. Plus order votes and all that.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 09, 2017, 02:27:55 am
But I prefer "you can vote for as many things as you want." I do it because even if it seems like the other way around sometimes, I don't want to micromanage my posts in this thread. I want to be able to support what proposals I like. And if you only want one idea to win, just vote for that one idea. I don't see the problem in this approach.
A ranked voting method would work if we weren't using copy+pasted text in a quote in forum posts, but we are.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 09, 2017, 02:29:02 am
Multi-votes were rare (and the DF search is garbage, so I can't find them), but they were sllowed to happen.
More importantly, multi-votes do not disrupt the system, unlike RAM's " I'm more important than everyone else" approach.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 09, 2017, 02:31:53 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 09, 2017, 02:34:04 am
The approach of using 4/3/2 forces everyone rlse to follow.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 09, 2017, 02:37:05 am
That means that if we attack the desert with Frost towers, and turn it freezing like the Jungle, their spell will fail and their forces will freeze again.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 09, 2017, 02:38:55 am
Anywhoo, miscellaneous design idea for some virtually impossible time when we don't desperately need to counter an OP enemy design or counter their counter for our OP design. AkA never.
Design: Spell of Restoration
We've done life. We've done plant growth. Let's combine the two to make a spell to restore wounds on our soldiers. Useful for literally every scenario as battles tend to produce wounds and hearing wounds is good.
And @Ebbor's new post: Yup. So it seems like a continental frost tower would be even more useful now? Though I forget what page my design for one is on.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 09, 2017, 02:49:11 am
Quote
Tower of Forever Frost: An astoundingly expensive tower that has to be assembled in place and requires the skill of a master wizard to operate, as well as countless other skilled wizards. Creates a very powerful cold evocation and then channels it directly into the air, consistently lowering temperatures within a radius of about fifty miles. Can induce snow in the jungle during the winter, freezing rain in the summer. A National Effort.
Obsolete description.
There may be others, haven't checked them all.
Post by: RAM on May 09, 2017, 02:52:35 am
Oh, and there was an agreement to limit proposals to 2 votes to avoid cluttering up everything./b]Could you please cite a moment at which that was decided? I recall that about three people liked the idea, a couple didn't, and the majority just didn't care enough to say anything, probably sort of feeling that maybe it would be nice to have a bit less clutter but it didn't seem worth making rules over... Then later-on someone changed their mind and pretty much just dropped it with nobody much caring, because the voting rules around here pretty much never existed except when someone arbitrarily changes the voting tally because a couple of people said something positive about their idea for a restriction.
First, a general pre-emotive request to keep it civil please.Thankyou, I appreciate it and am making an effort to keep everything on the topic rather than making accusations or value judgments.
But I prefer "you can vote for as many things as you want." I do it because even if it seems like the other way around sometimes, I don't want to micromanage my posts in this thread. I want to be able to support what proposals I like. And if you only want one idea to win, just vote for that one idea. I don't see the problem in this approach.
A ranked voting method would work if we weren't using copy+pasted text in a quote in forum posts, but we are.
I worr that that will cause ties. If everyone votes more than once, and there are two or three "that sounds like it will help" proposals, then it stands to reason that everyone will vote for all of them and there will be no final decision. I agree that it is constricting but do not see a preferable alternative, outside of weighted voting which lets people vote for multiple things but still forces variations between them.
I do not see the issue with copy/pasting. Is it a matter of conformity? Or is it difficult to trak numerous votes with different numbers attached to them? Or perhaps it is too much addition for somethign that is just a hobby project and should be relaxing? I can think of multiple possibilities but none ofthem seems all that difficult to me.
To be fair, I'm almost certain RAM was just using himself as an example and meant for everyone to do the same. He just forgot to also do the same to existing votes.I would indeed like for everyone else to do the same, and am using myself as an example. But I am more using myself as an example of how off the voting has become, and how it could be better, and just how strongly people who advocate freedom in voting feel about other people voting wrong. I accept that my votes may well be discredited entirely when the proposal appears or that the G.M. might declare that that clearly isn't the way voting works and could I please change it and never do anything like that again. I would genuinely like to see my method adopted butdo not think it will happen, because noting and adding 4s,3s, and 2s together is too complex and counting names is not.
So it is, perhaps, not completely honest to say that I mean for everyone else to follow suit, because I do not expect such, but I would welcome the change if it happened.
1 point, 0.75 point, and 0.5 point vote.I honestly dod not think of that. I worry, however, about the addition of fractions, it is a bit more awkward thant integers, but if we can agree to people who wish to vote for multiple proposals using such a scheme than it might be a good outcome. It would typically come down to a matter of total voters anyway in most scenarioes so the added addition probably owuldn't be that big iof a problem.
Does anyone like that idea?
I am going to go back and edit in the fractional approach, I am not adding spell of restoration because it explicitly states that it is for another time, but it is bolded so...?
Post by: RAM on May 09, 2017, 03:00:57 am
On a side note, Moskurg's anti-frost tower system relies on using hot air from the desert. They donlt have the magecraft to heat air, but need to steal it from eksewhere.I would like to request that the G.M. consider that blowing air from the desert means blowing air onto the desert to replace what is lost, most likely from all around it, namely the plains, mountains, higher altitudes, but mostly sea. I would suggest that doing so would be detrimental for the desert's climate...
That means that if we attack the desert with Frost towers, and turn it freezing like the Jungle, their spell will fail and their forces will freeze again.
Post by: Roboson on May 09, 2017, 03:37:24 am
Because I'm tired of this. ::)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 09, 2017, 03:43:04 am
On a side note, Moskurg's anti-frost tower system relies on using hot air from the desert. They donlt have the magecraft to heat air, but need to steal it from eksewhere.I would like to request that the G.M. consider that blowing air from the desert means blowing air onto the desert to replace what is lost, most likely from all around it, namely the plains, mountains, higher altitudes, but mostly sea. I would suggest that doing so would be detrimental for the desert's climate...
That means that if we attack the desert with Frost towers, and turn it freezing like the Jungle, their spell will fail and their forces will freeze again.
I would like for the GM not to consider the meteorological implications of anything we or Moskurg has done.
Because our area of perpetual cold would make rather nasty perpetual cyclone.
Quote
Does anyone like that idea?
The fraction idea has no effect on my votes, so I'm perfectly fine with it.
Post by: Azzuro on May 09, 2017, 07:03:25 am
Order: Arstotzka civil war.+1
Because I'm tired of this. ::)
Post by: Andres on May 09, 2017, 07:12:28 am
As for what we should design, well, a proven advantage has been our frost towers as they were single-handedly responsible for us taking the mountains. Cheaper artillery is of greater priority, but that can and should be done with a revision.
AS-MFT A1. Double the range and the potency of the towers.
Simple, but very powerful. The increased range will let us use them offensively as they'll be able to affect regions they aren't even in. The increased cold they generate will allow us to use that increased range to kill all the Moskurgs affected. By just doubling what we have in the plains they will die, and by moving unnecessary MFTs from the Mountains to the Jungle, they will die in the Jungle as well.
Again, I see the need for more artillery, but we should leave that for a revision. It's more efficient, and if the design for a cheaper artillery piece fails we'll have spent both our Design and our Revision for the same thing. We also need to combat their new warm wind magic before they obsolete our towers, or worse, before they do what we're doing except with heat instead of cold. We don't want our men to die of heatstroke.
Quote
Designs!
2 AS-HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles, 10ebbor10 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447733#msg7447733
1 Shrouder Shell: FallacyofUrist http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447735#msg7447735
1 Flameshrieker Shells: Lightforger http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447746#msg7447746
1 Spell-forged Steamworks: RAM http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761
1 More powerful, longer ranged MFTs: Andres http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7448054#msg7448054
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 09, 2017, 08:27:18 am
Post by: Andres on May 09, 2017, 08:51:38 am
Andres, I'd suggest also trying to get the towers to work at Sea, presumably by using their extra range from the coast.It's important not to overreach on designs. Amplifying the range so that they're useful for the sea means we'd need to nix the potency boost or else the design will be too likely to fail. The thing is that we need that potency boost to counter Moskurg's Warm Wind and kill Moskurgs on the Plains/Jungle.
By the way, I have two other ideas which may be of use to us.
One is a fire-based, continuous-firing ray cannon. They will be mounted on ships, have extreme range, a fire attack, and hit-scan aiming. We'll need some more advances in fire magic before we can do this. The first will likely be a National Effort, but even a single one would be very useful. fakedit: This weapon would be devastating in an open field.
The other idea is a Staff of Winter. A National Effort that lets a wizard wield the full power of Winter, allowing them to do stuff like freeze opponents or summon blizzards. Would be a good weapon for Myark to use.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 09, 2017, 09:13:18 am
If anyone remembers something, feel free to add.
I've taken the liberty to strike through the enemy weapons that I think have been rendered useless.
Spoiler: Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Spells (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
One very interesting thing is that a truly ludicrous amount of Moskurgian Military might relies on Wind Spells. They have 4 schools of magic :
Divination
Wind
Lightning
Anti magic
Meanwhile, we are far more redundant.
Fire
Cold
Plants
Crystals
Anti-magic
Creature conjuration.
Of course, some of those schools are barely used, but the same can be said for the Moskurgians. They have just 1 lightning spell, and most of their divination (with the exception of Lucky Strike) is already countered. The result is that they rely to an enormous amount on their wind Magic, and one specific wind spell.
Sabotage that, and their entire battle formations falls to pieces.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 09, 2017, 09:27:15 am
Maybe we could design our tower to also control weather? It'd be a direct counter to their wind stuff. But I still think that when we revisit the tower, range is the best option. Affecting their deserts would help us a lot by just hurting their war effort in general and would completely nullify their frost tower counter.
Still think Artillery is the best option now though. It helps us significantly on sea where we're extremely close to winning again. It helps us in the plains and the jungle. It's what all our theatre commanders recommended. It helps counter their stupid ballistae. Etc.
And re: voting; I'm fine if anyone wants to do a 1/.75/.5 thing. It doesn't disrupt the rest of the voting and still works with RAM wanted.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 09, 2017, 10:10:51 am
Quote
Maybe we could design our tower to also control weather? It'd be a direct counter to their wind stuff.
The problem is that that is a counter to their advantage, because they have more experience with wind magic.
We need to use one of our fields of magic to counter theirs.
Post by: Andres on May 09, 2017, 10:17:28 am
Our Frost Towers is well qualified to counter their wind magic. It is not sending wind against wind, or general weather manipulation, but by forcing a specific kind of weather to exist, that would nullify whatever they try to do.QuoteMaybe we could design our tower to also control weather? It'd be a direct counter to their wind stuff.
The problem is that that is a counter to their advantage, because they have more experience with wind magic.
We need to use one of our fields of magic to counter theirs.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 09, 2017, 10:19:43 am
Quote
Creates a very powerful cold evocation and then channels it directly into the air, consistently lowering temperatures within a radius of about fifty miles.
All they do is lower the temperature.
They have shown to have no effect beyond that. They don't cancel the wind Moskurg uses to create storms, they only cool them down. They don't cancel the wind Moskurg uses to shield against arrows. They don't cancel the Desert Winds, only cool stuff down.
Hence, I believe a frost tower attempt would fail spectacularly.
Post by: Andres on May 09, 2017, 10:30:33 am
Our Frost Towers do not force a specific kind of weather to exist.I was unclear. I meant our Frost Towers can be used as a base for the kind of "specific kind of weather enforcement" based on the fact that they already do some amount of what we want done. We were discussing which of our magic trees we could use to get the counter we want, not which of our magic trees already gives us a counter, and I over-trusted in that context. For the effects of the Frost Tower, we just swap "make colder" with "make cold in this specific way".
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 09, 2017, 10:44:08 am
Oh, Important note.
We got our Metal bonus back. We have to consider that when designing.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 09, 2017, 11:07:45 am
The Following Actions could have benefited from the metal boost but didn't because we lost the mountains are :
Design: Mk 2 Magic Cannon [3, 3, 1]
Revision: Rifling [1]
Revision: Improved Range [1]
Design: SPB1-A "Fog-O-War" [3+1, 6-3, 1+1]
Design: SO1-AM "Equalizer" [2-1+1, 2-1, 1]
Revision: Magical Condensor: [5+1]
Now, the biggest question is :
Will our Elite Cannon get a metal bonus (automatically becoming cheaper if revised) or not?
Technically, it's based on the standard cannon, which already had the bonus. In Practice, all the upgrades that made it very expensive did not have the bonus. So, hence the question.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 09, 2017, 11:20:43 am
Example: A new magical circuit design on the cannon won't make it automatically a level cheaper, since you're not dealing with the cannon manufacturing process.
Improving the cannon's overall design, figuring out how to do rifling better/cheaper, or standardizing the production tolerances to allow homogenous ammo across all cannons would automatically drop the cost because it involves overhauling the manufacturing process.
Post by: andrea on May 09, 2017, 12:04:12 pm
Of course, standardized parts would perhaps be a priority ( gold can be mad ein very thing foils after all). at some point, we could actually decide to design a factory.
small note about the revision: knowledge of circuits may be the key to making the antimagic shells work. Remember, during the last combat one shot fell close enough to the ballista, and lucky tsrike was countered. circuits mean we can use cheaper, worse crystals and just activate them by circuit. A well designed circuit with a proper spell could also act as a fuse to detonate the shell in flight, filling the field with anti magic shrapnel.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 09, 2017, 12:23:48 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 09, 2017, 12:28:15 pm
Since we have a guarantee that we can drop the cost of the cannons in the revision, I see no need at all in doing it in the design action.
Quote
Designs!
1.75 AS-HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles RAM.75 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447733#msg7447733
1 Shrouder Shell: FallacyofUrist http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447735#msg7447735
1 Flameshrieker Shells: Lightforger http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447746#msg7447746
2 Spell-forged Steamworks: RAM, 10ebbor10 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761
.5 Pillar of unmagic: RAM.5 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761
1 More powerful, longer ranged MFTs: Andres http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7448054#msg7448054
Spoiler: Posts without votes (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Reactions to all Designs (click to show/hide)
Quote
knowledge of circuits may be the key to making the antimagic shells work. Remember, during the last combat one shot fell close enough to the ballista, and lucky tsrike was countered. circuits mean we can use cheaper, worse crystals and just activate them by circuit. A well designed circuit with a proper spell could also act as a fuse to detonate the shell in flight, filling the field with anti magic shrapnel.
I don't see how Circuits would accomplish that.
Using bad crystals seems like it would make them more likely to break. Detonating the shell just stops the antimagic from working.
Remember, any damage to the circuit stops the entire thing from working altogether.
It seems like AS-HA1 is in the lead. Unless that changes soon I'll roll up the design.
I am changing it.
Primarily because the AS-HA1 for some reason ignores we have a way to make spells permanent (the circuits) and tries to make it's own crystal based energy storage instead.
Post by: Roboson on May 09, 2017, 01:56:50 pm
Quote
Designs!
1.75 AS-HA1 "Onslaught": Chiefwaffles RAM.75 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447733#msg7447733
1 Shrouder Shell: FallacyofUrist http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447735#msg7447735
1 Flameshrieker Shells: Lightforger http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447746#msg7447746
3 Spell-forged Steamworks: RAM, 10ebbor10 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761
.5 Pillar of unmagic: RAM.5 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761
1 More powerful, longer ranged MFTs: Andres http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7448054#msg7448054
Because whoever made this list forgot to put spiders on it, I must vote for the magic forges. It just seems like it will really assist all of our production needs.
Edit: Still, poisoning our enemies before we even fight them would give us an unquestionable advantage. Moreso than another cannon design.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 09, 2017, 02:20:23 pm
Post by: Roboson on May 09, 2017, 02:23:20 pm
Spiders are cold blooded.
So they'll move into the warmth of the Moskurg desert wind and find a nice boot to live in. Also most spiders, at least nontropical spiders, produce an anti-freezing agent in their bodies.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 09, 2017, 02:25:58 pm
I can change the design if they would convince anyone, though.
And Evicted, I still don't really understand. You say it's a bonus action to make it cheaper thanks to the metals but we still need to explicitly revise that? Or is it "revise something semi-related to it and automatically get the expense thing"?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 09, 2017, 02:31:07 pm
We can turn steam into water, why should the reverse be harder?
Post by: Light forger on May 09, 2017, 02:39:51 pm
Anyway swapping to the cannon we need more guns.
Quote from: Designs
Spell-forged Steamworks (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761): (3) RAM, 10ebbor10, Roboson
AS-HA1 "Onslaught" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447733#msg7447733): (2.75) Chiefwaffles, RAM.75, Lightforger
Shrouder Shell (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447735#msg7447735): (1) FallacyofUrist
More powerful, longer ranged MFTs (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7448054#msg7448054): (1) Andres
Pillar of unmagic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761): (.5) RAM.5
Post by: evictedSaint on May 09, 2017, 02:42:11 pm
Or is it "revise something semi-related to it and automatically get the expense thing"?
Yes.
And because I did a poor job clarifying, your circuits run off an on-going minor enchantment (which still requires a terribly complex and expensive circuit just to "keep something the right temperature"). The circuit allows an enchantment to remain permanently - it draws the energy to function off the mage casting the PSF's to power the steam engine or cannon (like the gas-blowback system on an assault rifle).
I'm sorry I didn't make that clear, I was a bit distracted when writing it up.
Post by: Azzuro on May 09, 2017, 02:49:19 pm
Quote from: Designs
Spell-forged Steamworks (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761): (3) RAM, 10ebbor10, Roboson
AS-HA1 "Onslaught" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447733#msg7447733): (3.75) Chiefwaffles, RAM.75, Lightforger, Azzuro
Shrouder Shell (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447735#msg7447735): (1) FallacyofUrist
More powerful, longer ranged MFTs (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7448054#msg7448054): (1) Andres
Pillar of unmagic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761): (.5) RAM.5
Voting for more and better cannons. I'd prefer the Moskurgs not to do another ballista upgrade and outrange us even further if they do, so going for this will give us equivalence, or artillery superiority if they don't.
Post by: andrea on May 09, 2017, 02:51:19 pm
Quote from: Designs
Spell-forged Steamworks (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761): (4) RAM, 10ebbor10, Roboson,Andrea
AS-HA1 "Onslaught" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447733#msg7447733): (3.75) Chiefwaffles, RAM.75, Lightforger, Azzuro
Shrouder Shell (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447735#msg7447735): (1) FallacyofUrist
More powerful, longer ranged MFTs (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7448054#msg7448054): (1) Andres
Pillar of unmagic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761): (.5) RAM.5
That said, making gem powered cannons would make me happy as well, since that is the last before rifles.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 09, 2017, 02:55:27 pm
We've been revising our cannons too much. We need a new iteration in designs and we need one that works.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 09, 2017, 03:02:55 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 09, 2017, 03:05:54 pm
So if we make the HA1 then we'll get a lot closer to rifles.
Also we'll be able to use our revision on something useful instead of upgrading obsolete cannons.
Post by: andrea on May 09, 2017, 03:08:48 pm
eh, changing vote.
Quote from: Designs
Spell-forged Steamworks (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761): (4) RAM, 10ebbor10, Roboson,Andrea
AS-HA1 "Onslaught" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447733#msg7447733): (4.5) Chiefwaffles, RAM.75, Lightforger, Azzuro, Andrea
Shrouder Shell (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447735#msg7447735): (1) FallacyofUrist
More powerful, longer ranged MFTs (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7448054#msg7448054): (1) Andres
Pillar of unmagic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761): (.5) RAM.5
Post by: Roboson on May 09, 2017, 03:12:19 pm
EDIT:
I know, I know... but I also want to have a factory! factories are great.
eh, changing vote.Quote from: DesignsSpell-forged Steamworks (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761): (4) RAM, 10ebbor10, Roboson,Andrea
AS-HA1 "Onslaught" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447733#msg7447733): (4.5) Chiefwaffles, RAM.75, Lightforger, Azzuro, Andrea
Shrouder Shell (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447735#msg7447735): (1) FallacyofUrist
More powerful, longer ranged MFTs (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7448054#msg7448054): (1) Andres
Pillar of unmagic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761): (.5) RAM.5
This makes no sense, you changed your vote so that factory loses...
Post by: evictedSaint on May 09, 2017, 03:12:53 pm
Post by: Roboson on May 09, 2017, 03:18:14 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 09, 2017, 03:20:08 pm
We can probably, assuming no game changers from Moskurg, do the factory next design phase. We can revise for fixing the Equalizer, skirmish, bugs, or maybe even Flare this revision phase.
The HA1, if it goes well, will make us win the artillery game and we will either keep that advantage or force Moskurg to counter it while we do other things next turn.
Because this is more than just a sequential design. I've said this before, but it's a culmination of lots of our recent efforts. We've had a lot of improvements just waiting to actually work and the HA1 should realize them. I doubt Moskurg has the same, so we can do more in a design phase to or artillery than they can.
Of course, this is only if it gets good rolls. It probably won't.
@Roboson:
...he says, after voting for a factory.
Post by: Roboson on May 09, 2017, 03:28:18 pm
/evillaughing
@Roboson:
...he says, after voting for a factory.
At least it was a magic factory. It was interesting, and new, and could be used to make tanks and submarines someday. Or literally anything. Cannons are just such a losing battle. Here's how the Cannons Race game goes:
M: 10 badass points
A: 1 badass point
M: 1 badass point
A: 1 badass point
A: 1 badass point
M: 1 badass point
A: 1 badass point
A: 1 badass point
M: 1 badass point
M: 1 badass point
A: 1 badass point
M: 1 badass point
A: 1 badass point
M: 1 badass point
A: 1 badass point
M: 1 badass point
A: 1 badass point
M: 1 badass point
And this goes on forever, but the enemy is always going to have those lucky strike bonus points. Cannons cannot win. Magic ammo or something like that might be able to do some extra good shit, but just making the cannons better won't get us where we want to go.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 09, 2017, 03:30:40 pm
We have a ton of steam engineering experience, and we can harness that.
In any case, we have reached the pinnacle of cannon engineering with this design.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 09, 2017, 03:34:31 pm
Unless we absolutely need to in order to counter some OP Moskurg thing and if the HA1 works, I'm done with cannon designs after this.
Like I said, this is a culmination of lots of semi-failed designs and revisions as well as designs that didn't directly address cannons. Logically this should make the design do more at a lower risk.
Basically:
Before:
Arstotzka - 0.7
Moskurg: 1
After:
Arstotzka: 2.2
Moskurg: 1.
Where numbers are some sort of abstraction for the artillery game. We can do more in this design than they should be able to with theirs, meaning if they want to catch up they have to spend more effort than us.
And also what Ebbor ninja'd me with.
Post by: andrea on May 09, 2017, 03:45:49 pm
Factory next turn sounds good. And maybe a proper boat after.
Post by: RAM on May 09, 2017, 03:52:57 pm
Infantry rifles will not work currently due to antimagic.
I am in favour of some sort of crystal-encased metal hull. The metal can host a crystal-summoning circuit to protect itself from the elements and add a bit off rigidity. The weight needs to drop post-haste. We could try reinforcing the boilers with crystal to cut down on metal use though I don't know if that would get our metal bonus. We need more of them and we need them lighter... Wood is already pretty strong and light, so just, "replace it all with metal" won't necessarily work. We could revise their hulls to sit eeper in the water, with metal-core crystal hulls or something...
If their antimagic goes long-ranged then we have problems. I would still like to try revising an antimagic charm into an anti'anything even reomotely resembling magic' charm with massive capacity and no range, that could be used as wards to stop enemy antimagic from getting past them.
I really want a conjurmelon vine. It makes water-melons that are filled with slow-summoned caltrops that, due to having a justification for existing better than "I wiggled my fingers in it's general direction" might be permanent, stable, and natural, thus being immune to anything but the most meta of antimagic. With the experience of that we could make a glorious defense flower, a spread of vines, studded with caltrops and threaded with spiderwebs, with flowers that produce fog, and an underground reservoir of fire wasps at its centre. When disturbed it would flail around with its vines, produce a cloud of confusing fog, and then release a swarm of glowing wasps, that, while quickly blown away, will light up the target zone for our night-shift artillery...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 09, 2017, 03:55:36 pm
Also deep hulls is one of the reasons why our Fog-O-Wars were (aren't?) doing amazingly at sea. Speaking of which...
Evicted, did the anti-magic condenser's reductions to steam engine weight help with the "sink after single hit" problems our SPB1's were having?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 09, 2017, 04:02:50 pm
Oh, and circuits and anti-magic don't actually stop antimagic.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 09, 2017, 04:07:31 pm
And that's my point about circuits and energy storage stuff. Kind of. Even though we could without a doubt make much quicker progress in the antiantimagic department if we focused, our other developments (circuits, energy storage) are gradually moving towards antiantimagic. With a bit more general development, we could most likely easily use circuits, energy storage, and other magitech to easily make antiantimagic. Not now, though.
But with that being said, I hope to god that I will never see the word "antiantiantimagic" typed in a serious tone in this thread.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 09, 2017, 04:26:24 pm
The AS-HA1 is ambituous. Perhaps our most ambituous piece of equipment yet.
The cannon sheds its name in favor of a new one that more accurately reflects its function: Artillery. The steel barrel is the longest one we've built yet and stretches the limits of our metalworking capability - manufactured barrels require lengthy periods of tempering, sanding, shaving and chiseling to get within the correct tolerances, as such large, whole peices of metal tend to warp once cooled. The complicated series of steam valves, boilers, water-loaders, drains, and tubing requires careful maintenance, but is again the largest we've ever built. It requires three apprentices working in tandem to generate three separate PSFs to flash-steam several buckets of water to a super-heated state. This drives a shell the length of a mans arm from elbow to knuckle down the tube, sending it sailing beyond Extreme Range to Beyond Line-Of-Sight Range. The solid iron shell is devestating for whatever it hits, but the rounds tend to bury themselves in the ground otherwise and provide minimal splash damage. It is accurate at Beyond LOS to within 20 meters, within 15 meters at Extreme, 10 at Long, 5 at Medium. The rifled barrel is to thank for this unprecidented accuracy. Due to the larger inner bore it's much easier to chisel the rifling by hand, despite there being more material to remove. It's still not machine-perfect, but it's better than anything else in the world (and will be for six more centuries). The gold-inscribed circuit cools the barrel enough between each firing event that a highly trained team could get off four shots per minute. The heavy wooden carriage allows angling between -45° and 45°. It must be affixed to walls when firing downward, but doesn't jump like the HC1. At lower angles its shots will skip, tumble, and break apart into lethal shrapnel, but at higher ones it will make a small crater in the ground.
The ammunition is still unique to each individual artillery piece due to variences in construction, and stone ammo crafted in the field will break and jam due to the incredible stresses the cannon puts on it. The incredible weight and size of the ammo means an entire supply train is needed to bring enough into battle for sustained firing. Likewise, the sheer size of the HA1 and need to be set up and taken down before moving means we will have to destroy it when retreating, lest it fall into Moskurg hands. It is too heavy to be mounted on any of our existing boats, and even if we could a single firing would flip it. The gold circuit is also proving to be less reliable; attempting to fire too fast means it can't cool down quickly enough and the gold will melt and run out of the engravings. Weapon failure generally occurs soon after. Additonally, the incredible rate at which the cannon consumes water means it must either ship water with the ammo or set up near a stream or lake. It is also very obvious - the cannon sticks out above our lines, making it a target if the enemy gets within firing range.
The Circuit, Metal Cost, and Rifling all hurt the cost of this device, offset by our metal bonus in the mountains.
The ambituous nature hurt the effectiveness and bug probability, but our experience building cannons helped offset that.
Having never built an artillery piece this big introduced some further bugs, but our experience integrating steam, circuitry, and rifling helped offset that.
Despite my better judgement, it is merely Very Expensive.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 09, 2017, 04:28:28 pm
I appreciate you tried to sneak crystal energy storage into the design, but that is a design all on its own.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 09, 2017, 04:33:19 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 09, 2017, 04:33:58 pm
Extreme accuracy and extreme range is nice, but the "not fitting on boats" and "Very Expensive" things are very bad for what I was intending.
So lemme see ifI can see this right:
Benefits:
-Extremely accurate
-Beyond LOS range
Bad things:
-Very Expensive
-Doesn't fit on boat
-Hurts Routing
-Requires supply train
-Heavy water requirements
-Takes more apprentices
-Worse angling
Unknown:
-Firing rate? There's a firing rate bug, yeah, but I dunno how this compares to the firing rate of a HC1-E.
Evicted, is this list accurate?
So all in all, slightly disappointing. I was hoping more for primarily a reduction in Expense + mundane use first then everything else later, but instead...
Oh well. It has a ton of potential and even if we don't revise it, it'll be immediately useful in the front lines. I'll probably post some revision ideas later.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 09, 2017, 04:36:15 pm
Boats is an issue since that was half the point of the design. Expense is an issue because that was the other half of the design's point.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 09, 2017, 04:47:22 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on May 09, 2017, 04:50:52 pm
It was an ambituous design that has more firepower and range than anything in the world, including Moskurgs armory. It is also easily revisable into Expensive, an increase in fire rate, deadlier ammo, or an increase in reliability. You have apprentices to spare, and a better boat would carry it if you kept it in mind.
You guys wanted a lot out of this gun and I'm sorry I couldn't give you everything.
Post by: andrea on May 09, 2017, 04:52:49 pm
Anyway, this thing is still good but it needs shells.
any ideas?
Oh, I see evictedsaint said it is easily reviseable into expensive. Expensive cannon or cannon with shells? shells would help a lot with boats as well...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 09, 2017, 04:56:33 pm
1.) Explosive shells: Add splash damage to our superaccurate shells.
2.) Fix Anti-magic shells.
3.) Cheaper (pretty important)
4.) Fits on boats (pretty important)
5.) Lower Apprentice requirements (more circuits)
6.) Fix water requirements (summon fog?)
7.) Spotting (Flares are still a viable option)
8.) And way more.
Luckily the Onslaught is still completely viable - it works out of the gate and is more or less a straight-up upgrade to our H1-E's. It's a great weapon, just not amazing.
One more question. Evicted, because of the fact that HC1-E's don't use the metal supplies yet, can a Cheapen revision for the HA1 also work on the HC1-E as that bonus action? Assuming the revision can logically be applied to both, of course. Also this is less likely, but is it possible to get a revision on both expense and weight? It can be easily done in a logical way - less materials used without sacrificing performance, making it easier to make + lighter.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 09, 2017, 04:59:08 pm
Ambitious (trying to improve cost on small and big cannons)
Revision : Our forges run day and night to provide sufficient steel for our cannons. With inscribed fire runes, dogwood mages growing wood for charcoal, and crystal molds we can dramatically increase the speed and quality of steel production.
Revision : Rifling our cannons is a complex affair, as is the construction of long barrels. A solution has been found. A steam engine, powering a drill with a crystal (which is stronger than steel) drillbit makes production easier. Barrels, rather than being cast hollow are created as solid blocks, then bored out rapidly. This created a strong and more importantly consistent barrel.
I'm also having the silly idea of trying to improve the range even more and making a true Paris Gun.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 09, 2017, 05:03:14 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 09, 2017, 05:04:48 pm
Crystalclad Design Ideas/Improvements/Principles:
1.) Crystal armoring. This is the simplest of them all - summon crystal but as armor instead of weapons. Armor shaping is pretty easy at this point; we're not trying to slope it or anything. yet.
2.) Big. This thing should fit an unrevised HA1 in addition to the required steam engines without sacrificing anything like the Fog-O-War is with the steam engines. And instead of a HA1, it could be configured to instead fit an armament of HC1-E's allowing for a more devastating closer-range attack.
While I would like to address the anti-magic shell or whole "not fitting on boats" thing, a cheapen action for both HC1-E's and HA1's would by far be the best option here. Helps a lot in both naval and land.
Speaking of boats, what do people think of an order for HA1 artillery to focus attention on aiding at sea when they have no land targets?
And yeah. I'm definitely 100% on board with the factory next design phase. I do not believe that it was a mistake not to do it this turn, but a factory will help with just about everything. Crystalclads, our cannons, more, etc.
EDIT: Waitno.
(Joke) Design: Tower of FIRE
Towers are useful. Arstotzkans are agreed on that. But what if we made them more useful?
Introducing the tower of fire. The name is actually a bit of a misnomer. It looks like a tower, but it's actually a gigantic barrel for our biggest artillery gun yet, housed underneath Arstotzka. Sure, we may have a large damaging earthquake every time it fires, and sure, we may lose entire companies of soldiers due to the occasional misfire, but surely this is a good idea.
But regarding what revision to use for cannon/artillery expense: I'm leaning towards a factory-like revision to explicitly make the Factory design next design phase easier. But yet again, maybe a factory-like revision would be made redundant by a factory?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 09, 2017, 05:07:29 pm
If you revise your manufacturing process in a way that applies to both, then yeah it'll do that. You guys have been comming up with these insane weapons with minimal infastructure to support them so far; I think I mentioned in the design that the HA1 is as far as you can get without a SERIOUS overhaul of your manufacturing process.
I mean, we kind off had to. Moskurg has artillery with the same range, better accuracy, and cheaper, and fire weaponry.
In any case, given how hard the new range was for us it should be simply impossible for them. Ballistae are simply not made for these ranges, and there's no wsy you can make it work.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 09, 2017, 05:08:54 pm
Post by: Andres on May 09, 2017, 05:09:32 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Roboson on May 09, 2017, 05:10:32 pm
Revision:Flame Condenser Rough Draft (Better name pending)
"Making a steam condenser? Ha that was nothing. This, this will change everything." - Me, with another me manically laughing in the distance.
The flame condenser is the ultimate in anti-Moskurg technology. The device looks a lot like a very strange trumpet of some sort, but it is so much more than that, its the solution to our enemy's anti-infantry Moskurtovs. It is, in most respects, incredibly similar to our steam condenser. The only difference is that is not attached to a cannon or engine, but is instead carried by a "fire-wrangler." Also it puts out fires by creating a powerfully cold low pressure area within the horn, which sucks the fire in and counteracts it with incredible cold. With just a few tweaks to the existing technology, we have our very own anti-fire device. Whats even better is, since the spell is engraved on the inside of the horn like the HC2 cannons, any soldier can wield it, but must take care with it, as it never stops being cold. Extra gloves provided.
Alternatively, we could just switch it in reverse and have a constant frosty mist coming out of it... Hmm...
Post by: andrea on May 09, 2017, 05:11:54 pm
Crystal steam powered drills to produce reliable size rifled holes, Standard issue molds for consistency of barrels, magic boosted tree farms to have an easy nearby charcoal access. Many are the innovations in manufacturing that make our cannons easier to produce and maintain, with standard sizes across the army.
This is kind of a synthesis of ebbor's proposals with some fluff, but it makes it sound very ambitious.
I would vote for the steam drill if this is deemed unfeasible.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 09, 2017, 05:19:45 pm
Quote
:
Revision :
1 Barrel bore -10ebbor10
Order :
- Engage upon the edge of the desert. Blow up any Moskurgian fort, then build frost towers under covering fire of our artillery. Ruin their harvest and stop their heating spell.
- Defense against raiders : Have our people thought about placing exploding magic arrows along the camp perimeters, then summoning fire insects to patrol the very same perimeter. An approaching enemy will have 1 of 2 choices. If the approaching enemy doesn't notice the fire insects, they will light the barrels and burn their skirmishers. If they do, then the wind spell they cast to get rid of them will detonate the arrows, sending sharts of glowing hot crystal into the barrels. Either way, the enemy is hoist by their own petard.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 09, 2017, 05:33:31 pm
+1ing Ebbor's Barrel Bore and Engage Desert orders. Defense against raiders seems too problematic if it backfires, however. And it looks like Ebbor didn't vote for those orders, so I'm assuming that in writing the votebox.
Quote
RevisionsAnd @Roboson: Nice idea, but I 100% think cheaper HC1-E's and HA1's is critical here.
2 - Barrel Bore: 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles
Orders
1 - Engage upon the edge of the desert. Blow up any Moskurgian fort, then build frost towers under covering fire of our artillery. Ruin their harvest and stop their heating spell: Chiefwaffles
0 - Defense against raiders : Have our people thought about placing exploding magic arrows along the camp perimeters, then summoning fire insects to patrol the very same perimeter. An approaching enemy will have 1 of 2 choices. If the approaching enemy doesn't notice the fire insects, they will light the barrels and burn their skirmishers. If they do, then the wind spell they cast to get rid of them will detonate the arrows, sending sharts of glowing hot crystal into the barrels. Either way, the enemy is hoist by their own petard:
Post by: andrea on May 09, 2017, 05:35:18 pm
Quote
Revisions
3 - Barrel Bore: 10ebbor10, Chiefwaffles, Andrea
Orders
1 - Engage upon the edge of the desert. Blow up any Moskurgian fort, then build frost towers under covering fire of our artillery. Ruin their harvest and stop their heating spell: Chiefwaffles
0 - Defense against raiders : Have our people thought about placing exploding magic arrows along the camp perimeters, then summoning fire insects to patrol the very same perimeter. An approaching enemy will have 1 of 2 choices. If the approaching enemy doesn't notice the fire insects, they will light the barrels and burn their skirmishers. If they do, then the wind spell they cast to get rid of them will detonate the arrows, sending sharts of glowing hot crystal into the barrels. Either way, the enemy is hoist by their own petard:
We can use the barrel bore experience to help with the factory design anyway.
Post by: Roboson on May 09, 2017, 06:17:24 pm
Post by: Roboson on May 09, 2017, 07:21:24 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 09, 2017, 07:37:55 pm
1.) Design: Factories. I was going to write this whole thing breaking down RAM's Spell-forged Steamworks proposal and how it was extremely over-ambitious (definitely more-so than the HA1 - just look at the post yourself (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761)) and how its benefits were vague and kitchen sink-y, but I decided it wasn't worth it and will instead post a tentative design proposal for next design phase. RAM's just felt like overengineering, to be honest. And on second thought, I shall make multiple types of factory designs because that is what I do.
Future Design: Crystalworks
Crystal is the future. Sure, it may last 24 hours and disappears when the enemy gets nearby, but it's still the future, and the Crystalworks shall make that a reality.
The crystalworks is, essentially, a building placed by the river (which I assume exists). This river powers steam engines that power the mundane portions of the factory.
The Crystalworks is simple: Instead of wasting wizards to make exact shapes of crystal, we let machinery do it for us. Crystal is constantly being summoned by circuits, yet instead of a single circuit making perfect ready-made crystal shapes, the work is divided into multiple circuits across multiple "conveyors" powered by steam engines. These circuits progressively work on the crystal - the crystal starts as raw "blobs" but its hardness, weight, shape, and more is refined and manipulated as the crystal moves throughout the Crystalworks. Eventually the finished product is deposited in large storage containers that are regularly emptied to be brought to the field.
The result is much cheaper crystal items and products.
We've found that crystals are, in a way, "bound" to the summoning wizard. Being dispelled is likely breaking the connection to the wizard. So what if we made the crystals connected to themselves? Then the crystal is a solid object, now completely free of magic and immune to dispelling. The nature of the circuits used in the Crystalworks works great for this - the circuits can easily make "isolated" Crystal because the circuits are "isolated" themselves. No wizard is making this crystal.
The result is permanent crystals no longer tied to magic and therefore no longer dispelable.
As a very minor feature in addition to the selling points of the Crystalworks, it's created in a very modular configuration. It has multiple crystal lines and more can be added easily. These lines can be configured without difficulty to produce different products as we come up with new crystal-based designs.
Finally, powering these circuits is not an easy task. The steam engines may power the mundane aspects such as these conveyors, but a way to power the circuits constantly summoning and manipulating crystal was the hardest aspect of the Spellworks. The result is a series of gems placed in a central part of the Crystalworks that store magical energy. These gems are based heavily on our anti-magic charms, but don't include the "absorb magic" part. They simple store magic. Apprentices can easily input magic into them and then very simple circuits can deliver this magical energy to the rest of the factory. These gems do need to be routinely charged by apprentices, but a mere handful of apprentices can work together to keep the factory powered constantly thanks to the fact that it doesn't need to be constantly charged.
The main goal here is to just make crystal better and lay the groundwork to use it (and metal I guess) in our magitech designs. We can still use our metal bonus - things don't have to be 100% crystal or 100% metal.
Crystalworks Design Principles (In order of importance)
1.) Magic batteries
2.) Anchored (permanent+dispel-immune) Crystals.
3.) Cheap crystal anything in the future
Crystalworks Benefits
1.) Make existing crystal weapons usable again
2.) Make current + future crystal designs cheaper.
3.) Helps Crystalclad, crystal armor, more crystal weapons, etc.
4.) Provides infrastructure for complicated designs. (Things like the HA1 can be made to use crystal ammunition. It'd be lighter, stronger, and cheaper to make+treansport. Crystal can be worked into a lot of designs to let the Crystalworks "cover" them in terms of manufacturing. Just be sure to mention it in their designs)
More ideas to come! I was going to write out a plan for designs+revisions but then I got carried away when I looked deeper into RAM's steamworks proposal.
EDIT: Probably. I'm actually really liking the Crystalworks.
And feedback is greatly appreciated, everyone. Feedback now lets me adjust the design to a consensus everyone likes before we have to vote, or I can just come up with a new design if people don't like it. It just makes the whole process easier and better to have feedback.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 09, 2017, 08:17:13 pm
Really, gem batteries aren't that hard. Our antimagic charms are batteries - they just aren't configured to input/store energy in the right way. Again, I have no doubts that it wouldn't be a huge problem putting it in a design in addition to other things, but still.
Future Design: Magegems (New names extremely appreciated)
We've begun to explore the new areas of magic without the presence of our mages. Magegems are gems (or crystals) based on the anti-magic charm. But where the anti-magic charm actively absorbed ambient energy, a magegem does nothing of the sort. Energy can be actively input into the gem by a mage of any skill level, then the gem can be safely handled by anyone; mundane or not.
A magegem does nothing on its own other than storing energy. But when inserted into a compatible device, circuits on the device can actively draw energy from the magegem, allowing for items with much more drastic effects. Without a magegem, circuits are limited to sustaining low-power existing spells. But with magegems, circuits can actually cast spells and enact significant changes to the surrounding reality. HA1 and HCx series weapons will be able to fire without a mage casting the required spells. Steam engines will be able to start, stop, and last longer without a magician. And more!
Converting our current designs to work with magegems is a simple task. Most modern designs utilize circuits, which means all that has to be done is to configure the circuits to draw power from the magegem instead of a mage. Non-circuit based devices can also be converted fairly easily, as the lack of a circuit suggests making one wouldn't be a complicated task for that particular device. For example, the HA1 already utilizes circuits, so a slot can be very easily added to it and the circuits configured to draw energy from an input magegem.
Magegems at the moment are planned to be only distributed in bulk to sites making use of them, like artillery. But if our soldiers ever require them, they can be issued with a handful of magegems to use on the field to power equipment. Magegems are designed to be reusable - soldiers are instructed to safely store depleted magegems until an apprentice is available to recharge them. But even if there are no apprentices available, the energy stored in magegems should last for long enough. Artillery configured to use magegems, for example, may ultimately require apprentices to charge the magegems, but as each artillery piece won't require the constant attention of apprentices, a single apprentice can be assigned to many different artillery pieces with the simple task of recharging depleted magegems.
As a part of this design, HA1 Onslaughts have been tweaked to accept magegems. Considerations were made to equip steam engines and other devices with compatibility for magegems, but that was deemed out of scope for now. Future iterations of those devices can be made compatible and the ease of converting likely means adding magegem compatibility can be done as part of a larger revision.
I'm okay with this instead of the factory. In fact, it could even maybe be a revision to the anti-magic charm.
Possibilities:
- 1 step closer to magic rifles. (Magegems = magazines)
- Significant step towards weaning our magitech off of the dependence of apprentices and freeing our mages.
- Many "general" uses like anchored crystal, better steam engines, better artillery, etc.
- They're just cool.
And again, feedback for this + crystalworks pleaaase
Post by: evictedSaint on May 09, 2017, 09:41:05 pm
In an effort to automate production, we take some time to update the means by which we produce our equipment: specifically, our artillery.
Cannons can be cast as an entire, single, solid piece. This requires more steel initially, but because we will be boring through the center we can recycle the shavings. Once cast and cooled (which takes some time) we line the cannon up with a steam engine and secure it to a moving wooden rail. A wizard casts a pre-set crystal boring bit, which features a screw-like design and is the same length as the cannon it will be boring. The bit is then geared (which takes some doing) to the steam engine to massively increase torque. The cannon is then guided by four men and pushed up against the giant, crystal bore while the wizard engages the steam engine. The process of boring through takes all day, but the result is an incredibly smooth, straight internal barrel. This (as well as the boring process) increases the reliability of the cannon and further lowers the chance of explosion, although the cannon still requires several tempering processes to reduce the brittle nature of cast steel. This new casting process takes advantage of our ore influx, meaning our HC1-E's are now merely Expensive.
Because the HA1 already takes advantage of our available ore and the limiting factor is the process of rifling and the golden circuitry, and unfortunately must stay as Very Expensive. They do take advantage of this system, though, and the accuracy and reliability is improved slightly.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 09, 2017, 09:47:21 pm
So for now I'd say we focus on other things and maybe if we get an expense credit, use it on the HA1.
And no feedback/ideas on the factory/crystaworks/magegems stuff?
EDIT: Oh yeah, Evicted, got any rough count of how many HA1's we're deploying now? I'm just curious, as it doesn't really change anything.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 09, 2017, 09:53:04 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 09, 2017, 09:54:42 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on May 09, 2017, 09:56:00 pm
Post by: Light forger on May 09, 2017, 10:01:49 pm
On to others things:
Crystalworks:
To much too soon. Your trying to get not only a full magic factory but, also better crystals in the same design. Which like the HA1 probably won't fly. Further more until we get a better way to use magic other then apprentices spam more stuff won't help that much. On that note.
Magegems:
Better suited to being one design the main thing I would change is to make each gem hold a preset spell and then active it on command. So we can just make it use whatever spell makes our cannons work and hand them out en mass and, then also possibly let our troops use spells like fog without a mage. Chance are this will be design I vote for next time when the shells fail again.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 09, 2017, 10:04:36 pm
The point is a universal source of energy to use for inanimate objects. It works for that purpose.
Crystalworks I'd argue against. It just progresses on circuits and introduces a more simpler variant of magegems. I think that's fine.
Post by: Andres on May 09, 2017, 10:05:35 pm
And no feedback/ideas on the factory/crystaworks/magegems stuff?No. We're not even in the Design phase, so it is unimportant as well as long, which makes it tl;dr. Include a summary somewhere. This goes for Design and Revision phases as well. Include a summary so it's not necessary to read a wall of text to understand what's going on. ((Good for both players and GM.))
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 09, 2017, 10:19:22 pm
Quote
Crystalworks Design Principles (In order of importance)
1.) Magic batteries
2.) Anchored (permanent+dispel-immune) Crystals.
3.) Cheap crystal anything in the future
Crystalworks Benefits
1.) Make existing crystal weapons usable again
2.) Make current + future crystal designs cheaper.
3.) Helps Crystalclad, crystal armor, more crystal weapons, etc.
4.) Provides infrastructure for complicated designs. (Things like the HA1 can be made to use crystal ammunition. It'd be lighter, stronger, and cheaper to make+treansport. Crystal can be worked into a lot of designs to let the Crystalworks "cover" them in terms of manufacturing. Just be sure to mention it in their designs)
But if that wasn't enough, I'm happy for a simpler one:
Crystalworks TL;DR: Use automation and energy storage to produce a plentiful supply of cheap crystal items.
And the idea of doing it now is so I can make it into a more workable form before people start voting on things and setting their minds in concrete.
Anywhoo, miscellaneous design which I'm not actually seriously advocating for, but it's something to think about:
Future Revision: AS-HA1-A
A - Armor
The AS-HA1-A is a genius idea. Our HA1's won't always be untouched simply because they can use extra-LOS range. Most of the time they'll be in mere Extreme range where enemy artillery can hurt them. That's why we can manufacture a crystal-metal "shell" for the HA1.
Without deployment, the AS-HA1-A looks fairly similar to a standard HA1 except it has a metal framework around most of the gun and the area behind it where the crew and immediate ammunition lies. However, when a HA1-A is deployed, a mage can summon crystal alongside the pre-made iron lattice, creating a crystal shell. This shell should be able to shield the occupants from multiple hits of Moskurg artillery and will completely shield them from that filth they call "fire".
The crystal can of course be restored by an on-site mage if repeated fire severely damages or breaches the shell.
How?
We make an iron "lattice"/framework (kind of like a ribcage is what I'm envisioning) around where the crew, immediate ammunition, and majority of the artillery piece sit. This is really easy.
Then we have wizards use that framework in conjunction with their crystal summoning abilities to create a shell around the HA1.
Metal - Expense. Crystal - super experienced. Crystal dispel isn't a problem because it's at Extreme+ range.
Why?
HA1's are valuable and even if they have extra-LOS range, they're still mostly engaging at Extreme range (I would heavily assume) and are hard to move, meaning unintentional closer-range combat is always a possibility. This shell, given the abilities of crystal will be extremely protecting against all sorts of enemy fire.
TL;DR: We make a crystal shell around our HA1's to protect the artillery piece itself, the crew, and a small amount of ammunition.
(Hint: The next step is to put steam engines inside)
EDIT: Meant to include this.
Spoiler: Big Picture (click to show/hide)
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 09, 2017, 10:25:44 pm
Also, it'll free up mages to man our artillery and whatnot.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 09, 2017, 11:45:46 pm
Post by: Roboson on May 10, 2017, 12:00:43 am
One thing we may wish to look into before the factory is magic batteries. We have circuits, but those require a mage to operate and fire constantly. With batteries, we can have an on/off switch. Also giant magic batteries would simplify the factory process greatly.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 10, 2017, 12:05:58 am
Their desert winds must have had a good roll, as it can counter our frost towers we've put several turns into.
They did roll well, but it only negates one "level" of your towers chill effect.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 10, 2017, 12:09:26 am
Though the Crystalworks does include batteries. I don't think it's a huge risk but it will definitely without a doubt be a penalty to have batteries in the Crystalworks design without doing something like Magegems beforehand.
I'm honestly torn. Magegems aren't particularly useful as a design. Maybe we could do Magegems as a revision? Because, after all, they are essentially just anti-magic charms but with the input/output changed a bit.
And since Evicted ninja'd me; Evicted, are magegems (post earlier in thread, but TL;DR: small magic "batteries" based off of tweaked anti-magic charms) suitable for a revision? I would definitely think so but your reaction to the inclusion of something like magegems in the HA1 design threw me off a bit.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 10, 2017, 12:11:52 am
My crystal pyramid idea stands. It is a good test of creating large, strong crystal armor that can have a closable firing port.
It is immediately useful on the battlefield to protect our artillery (and maybe soldiers but who cares about them).
It can also be one step towards the crystal clad. It will be less of a penalty if we already know how to make crystal plating armor.
As for the crystal ship, why not scale it up to have, say, 3 of our old HC-1Es that can be fired from either side and moved from one side to the other, with shielding over the top to prevent direct hits. Use metal not for defense (or in addition to crystal) but primarily for structural integrity.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 10, 2017, 12:12:32 am
Hence the Magegems design. I'm okay with Magegems -> Crystalworks/Other factory, since Magegems are a very versatile thing, anyways.
Though the Crystalworks does include batteries. I don't think it's a huge risk but it will definitely without a doubt be a penalty to have batteries in the Crystalworks design without doing something like Magegems beforehand.
I'm honestly torn. Magegems aren't particularly useful as a design. Maybe we could do Magegems as a revision? Because, after all, they are essentially just anti-magic charms but with the input/output changed a bit.
And since Evicted ninja'd me; Evicted, are magegems (post earlier in thread, but TL;DR: small magic "batteries" based off of tweaked anti-magic charms) suitable for a revision? I would definitely think so but your reaction to the inclusion of something like magegems in the HA1 design threw me off a bit.
Fire Staves are calling, they could be powered by mage gems...
Post by: evictedSaint on May 10, 2017, 12:15:34 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 10, 2017, 12:17:52 am
Post by: evictedSaint on May 10, 2017, 12:18:30 am
Post by: RAM on May 10, 2017, 12:27:03 am
Gems seem like an easy way into magical storage and help alleviate the need for a wizard as a stepping stone. I could easily see a single wizard operating multiple forges and then a later effort could get the summoned control crystals to completely remove wizards aside from shipping storgae gems to and from the academy.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 10, 2017, 12:38:41 am
Dogwood increases plant growth enormously. A permanent enchantement that can be planted in kur fields would massively increase food production.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 10, 2017, 12:47:41 am
Sure, it'll reduce the amount of apprentices we use, but that'd probably take a design and revision when we could do much better things than that.
And RAM, you're basically suggesting to build a computer using circuits? I mean, it's not the worst idea in the long run (though working up to intelligent life stored in crystals is probably a better idea) but like the other intelligent life thing, that's something that would take a lot of actions to do. It's the kind of thing we indirectly work towards by advancing life/circuit magic in other designs first.
So anyways, it looks like Crystalworks isn't viable until we get Magegems. And Crystalworks probably isn't even worth that - I'd rather just go with a regular "factory" this turn instead.
Future Design: Steam Foundry
I'm not in the mood to do a lengthy write-out, so I'll just do the basics then if I submit this design in the Design phase I'll actually put in some detail.
The Steam Foundry is a large building in Arstotzka next to a river. People standing next to it can hear the roar of the steam engines powering the facility. Apprentices rotated in and out by the nearby Academy are trained in operating steam engines and similar devices here, powering the engines.
Raw metal is shipped here from the mountains, where it is smelted in massive quantities then shaped into needed shapes by simple machinery powered by the steam engines. Worksmen are present in occasional spots on these conveyor "assembly lines" where they perform basic tasks that the new machines cannot.
Modularity allows for new configurations to be added and changed as needed.
From here, we can then develop Magegems, then "upgrade" the Steam Foundry to also include the Crystalworks.
@Ebbor: Yeah, dogwood could work.
@VoidSlayer:
Crystalclads: I still like the idea of making a Crystalclad large enough to fit a HA1 or a large-ish number of HC1-Es.
Fire Staves: Yeah; one of the points of Magegems is to be universal. So instead of having to come up with an energy source or wasting an apprentice on any design we make, we can just say "stick in a magegem" and make it usable by mundane people.
I've typed out about an hour ago what I personally think is the best route for each "endgame" idea. (Said ideas are what I can gather from people semi-recently in the thread) These are of course very basic and assume non-awful rolls, so some revisions would of course have to be used for bug fixing. This is just to help anyone confused with what our long-term plans could be, and to give others ideas building off of this. Because it's not like we design in a void without Moskurg designing things too, this is just a "probably good place to start if we want this cool thing" type thing. So, without further ado...
Magic Rifles
1.) Design: Magegem or similar magic storage device
2.) Design: Magegem-powered "wand" (vulnerable to AM)
3.) Revision: +Cheap "wands" (mass deployment amongst infantry)
4.) Revision: +Power "wands" (now actually make them powerful)
Steam Rifles
1.) Magegem or similar magic storage device
2.) Steam engine miniaturization - multiple revisions or ~1? design.
3.) Steam Rifle (maybe vulnerable to AM? Adding anti-AM would be easier than the magic rifle)
Tank (Note: Should probably avoid ever using words "tank" in design/revisions for this goal to avoid triggering Evicted)
1.) (Maybe) Revision: HC3 (think a HA but with much higher fire rate, only Long range, much lighter, etc. - like a modern day tank cannon versus artillery)
1.) (Temporary) Revision?: Artillery Armoring (e.g. AS-HA1-A)
2.) Design/Revision: Artillery Steam Engines (immediate benefits: greatly increase rate of fire at cost of mobility)
3.) Design/Revision: Artillery Hardening (Tanks useless if they turn off inside AM field)
4.) Design: Artillery Mobilization (Steam engine-powered wheels; doesn't have to be treads since those are probably a design/revision by themselves. Just simple "move without humans pushing/pulling it"
5.) Revision: +Artillery Armoring (More permanent armoring, sights for vision, entry door, etc.)
6.) Revision: +Artillery Mobility (Better steam engines? Better wheels? Wheels->Treads? etc.)
7.) Design: Culmination (We have all the components and a strange "tank". Now take what we learned and make it into an actual competent design with the explicit goal of being something like a tank.)
Crystalclad
1.) Crystalworks (will make crystal part easier, makes it so crystal just won't suddenly disappear)
2.) (Optional) Revision: Crystal Plating (crystal armoring for all ships)
3.) Design: Crystalclad (Easier - it's mostly just a much bigger and armored Fog-O-War)
4.) Revision: +Cheap Crystalclad (Crystalclads would without a doubt be at least Very Expensive. Maybe even National Effort.)
Ice Age
1.) Design?/Revision?: Frost Tower Counter Counter (Restore our frost towers to the effectiveness they were at before Moskurg's counter)
2.) Revision: +Range Frost Towers (Preferably enabling us to have influence over seas)
3.) Design?: (New?) ++Range Frost Tower (One frost tower in Arstotzka allowing influence over as much continent as possible)
4.) Revision: +++Range Frost Tower (upgrade #3's new frost tower to cover the deserts if it doesn't already)
5.) Revision: +Power Frost Tower (now that we have continent-wide influence, upgrade power)
6.) Revision: Selective Frost (Let us selectively avoid frosting our own crops)
Long-Range Artillery
1.) Revision: Flare (Fireball w/ ----power, +brightness, +cheap, and different colors - allows for easy communications + Extra-LOS artillery spotting)
2.) Flameshrieker? Or other damaging shell.
3.) Design: Long-range View (No actual design idea for this one yet - something to cut the middleman and let our artillery directly spot enemies)
Factories
1.) Design: Steam Foundry (Helps with metal manufacturing, pushes automation in general)
2.) Magegems (Needed for next step)
3.) Design(/Revision?): Steam Foundry - Crystalworks (Addition to steam foundry; incorporates crystalworking elements from Crystalworks and drastically reduces the manpower load on the factory by introducing magegems to operate the Steam Engines and Crystal Circuits)
Note - Factories is different since different "types" of factories (crystalworks vs steam foundry, etc.) aren't necessarily required or necessary for other factories; it's just that once we make a factory we can more easily do more infrastructure stuff by adding onto the existing factory.
Intelligence
1.) Magegem? (Can potentially help as stepping stone for lifegems)
2.) Design: Growing Crystal (AS-DF1 "Gallant" Crystal Barrier is the design I believe. This design incorporates very basic elements of life in it as its "innovation", and in addition to being helpful on its own advances life magics)
3.) Revision: +Intelligence growing crystal
4.) Design: Lifegem (Modified magegem that also incorporates recent life magic advancements to put the most intelligent magic life possible in a magegem)
5.) ??? (Lifegem possibilities: Artillery automation, factories, reactive crystal armor [RAM suggested this], etc.)
EDIT:
Growth Magic
1.) Revision: +Power Dogwood Wands (Make them actually useful for combat situations - changing landscape, thick jungle-like growths, etc.)
2.) Revision: ++Power Dogwood Wands (The more power, the better. We want to be able to change the landscape overnight to our advantage all while keeping Moskurg confused and lacking their formation bonus. This can't be achieved yet, but we can work towards it.)
3.) Design: Tower of Growth (Dogwood power revisions should help drastically; Tower of Growth is kind of like the Tower of Frost; it's used in theatres to actually begin rapidly changing and growing up the landscape.)
4.) Revision: +Range Tower of Growth (We want the Tower of Growth to be able to affect as many theatres as possible for general advantage.)
5.) Design: Lethal Plant Life (Helps to have life magic prepared for this. Makes it so we can influence our created plant life to "help" us by intentional concealment while actually attacking Moskurg. Could probably come before Tower of Growth.)
EDIT:
Combat Lifeforms
1.) Design: Beasts (Some kind of new design giving us roughly dog-sized animals for fighting. Provides a step up in intelligence and size from wasps.)
2.) Design: Beastmen (Based off of an idea much earlier in the thread - larger humanoid beasts with limited intelligences to follow orders, basic battle tactics, and to differentiate us vs them. The "humanoid beast" expertise gained here is crucial.)
3.) Revise: +Intelligence Beastmen (Only if they're too stupid; otherwise skip. This is used as a stepping stone towards wraiths)
4.) Design: Wraiths (Skirmish-oriented; use mist expertise; fast, stealthy, and lethal! Based off of mist, beastmen, and primarily improve in intelligence. Probably not as smart as humans by a notable degree, though.)
5.) Revise: +Intelligence Wraiths (Just makes Wraiths better in general and prepares us for future more-intelligent creations.)
6.) Design: Enhanced Soldiers (Based off of beastmen; use our expertise in
7.) Revise: +Cheap Enhanced Soldiers (Sure, having 3 superhumans is nice, but what about an army of them?)
8.) Design: Lifegems (If we haven't already done it. Can be done at any point after #3, really.)
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 10, 2017, 01:26:38 am
But an idea, if we can make magic rune whatevers in metal to create effects, what about on people...
Granted none of our effects would be particularly useful on our own soldiers but still.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 10, 2017, 01:32:41 am
With our cannons available in greater amounts we should be able to smash the enemy fleet badly, but I would like to reinforce that further.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 10, 2017, 01:42:59 am
Magegems however I'm growing more and more fond of as I think further. While without good-enough rolls they aren't immediately useful, they can be immensely helpful. In addition to paving the way for magic rifles if we ever choose to pursue those, and the "ready-made" principle of their design means putting them into other designs will be easy.
More importantly, magegems are critical for the Crystalworks which I think is a necessary step towards Crystalclads.
I do wonder though how much we should worry about using so many apprentices and mages for our magitech.
So, time for yet another question! Sorry for the sheer quantity of them, but Evicted, is it possible for you to provide a rough percentage of how many mages we don't have actually contributing directly to the fighting due to maintaining requirements for things like artillery and steam engines?
Oh, and lemme know if you think I missed something in the list I recently posted. I want to keep it up-to-date. I'm going to add in stuff for plant magic after this post.
Post by: andrea on May 10, 2017, 01:44:58 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 10, 2017, 01:48:51 am
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 10, 2017, 01:55:02 am
And yes, we're losing in the plains and Jungle, for 3 reasons
1 ) Our Frost spell is not effective enough due to their counter
2) Their artillery was more numerous
3) Their Skirmish advantage
4) They control the seas.
1 is going to be negated by our attack on the desert
2 is going to be decisively turned around by our new artillery cannons
3 is not addressed
4 is going to falter as our cannons are spread among all our ship. The enemy is going to be forced to retreat as soon each and every one of our ships will have the Elite cannons, and will thus out perform them in fire rate to a ridiculous degree.
Not sure what the enemy is planning, but so far we;re doing good.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 10, 2017, 02:01:37 am
Uhm, aren't you forgetting the Moskurgians have negated all magic in medium range.
That is why we have the crystal shields at long range, around our cannons. The mages are not on the front lines, just with the rest of the crews. Then if the shielding is effective we can just make an automated version of it.
It is not perfect, but it would provide much needed defenses for our cannons as well as experience in making crystal armor plating in a large but simple shape.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 10, 2017, 02:06:29 am
3) Their Skirmish advantage
Three words: Shadow Assassin Wolves
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 10, 2017, 03:03:29 am
We have life magic. We have magical mist. Just make the stuff immune to antimagic and create a Wraith.
And I definitely want to pursue crystal shielding + defenses. But once we get the Crystalclad, I think we'll have enough expertise in crystal to easily make crystal fortifications.
EDIT: Actually, on that note, time to add another thingy to my earlier megapost!
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 10, 2017, 03:17:09 am
It woukd be nice if once every while we could actually have design actions that don't have -3 modifiers.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 10, 2017, 03:22:01 am
Wraiths: It's life magic. And of course Wraiths aren't an immediate thing. See the "Combat Lifeforms" plan in my earlier megapost for more. We work up to Wraiths gradually with things like Beastmen and the like first. I want to develop life magic regardless, but wraiths are a far-off idea if we ever get sufficiently advanced in life magic. Besides, even developing life magic is for far later.
Crystal Shielding: I'm pretty sure you didn't mean this, but regardless, it's a new shape of crystal. Not too hard.
Post by: RAM on May 10, 2017, 03:25:49 am
Design: Spell-forged Steam-parts the ensecondingness$@!@#$%
So, we like, use circuits to make, like, super-precise moulds. Like, actually materialise equasions directly, so, like, they are mathemagically perfect and stuff... And we also make pretty shapes that, like, are super-difficult for clay moulds, like, turbines and stuff, that, like, need to be made in pieces and stuff and glued together or something? And the circuits has, like, a gem on it, with magic inside, so it doesn't go all flat if it doesn't have a wizards the whole time it is cooling. The wizard just makes a whole load of moulds and the, like, PEOPLES UNION OF PROUD WORKER FORCES!!!! can do, like, filling moulds and watching them cool and stuff, and can turn them off by, like, pulling tiles out of the magic circle thingies for, like, *poof* "that mould went away" stuff... And we do it for all this steam stuff we have been doing lately. Armourers and weaponsmiths can go dunk themselves...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 10, 2017, 03:28:23 am
...But why? Wouldn't we be better off be making factories and automation for the actual goods themselves, not the moulds? Unless I'm missing something, wouldn't you mass produce the goods the mould makes and not the mould itself?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 10, 2017, 03:34:11 am
I mean. It's not a new field of magic. Neither wraiths nor crystal shielding.I remember this exact argument when we were going to do the Dogwood wands.
Wraiths: It's life magic. And of course Wraiths aren't an immediate thing. See the "Combat Lifeforms" plan in my earlier megapost for more. We work up to Wraiths gradually with things like Beastmen and the like first. I want to develop life magic regardless, but wraiths are a far-off idea if we ever get sufficiently advanced in life magic. Besides, even developing life magic is for far later.
Crystal Shielding: I'm pretty sure you didn't mean this, but regardless, it's a new shape of crystal. Not too hard.
It's not new, it's just a variation of our insect conjuration
Turns out it was new.
I'd start and stop with simple animals.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 10, 2017, 03:47:24 am
And there were actually no penalties given to Dogwood wands, when we normally get penalties for any new technologies. The penalties are what we're avoiding. Sure, bonuses to rolls are nice, but they definitely aren't always obtainable and innovation is frequently worth more than a +1. It's not easy to get benefits, either. They're more of a "we have complete knowledge of this field so it comes naturally to us" rather than "we did something like this before", if I recall correctly.
Design: Plant Growth [3, 6 5]
And it's a pretty natural progression.
Insects -> Small-moderate Animals -> Dumb bruteforce humanoids -> Revise humanoids to be smarter -> Make humanoids again, but out of mist.
I would also again like to emphasize that this isn't something I'm trying to convince people to do right now or soon. I just think it's a good idea at some point, and while pointlessly expanding into completely new fields is not a good idea, this isn't pointless and it isn't a new field.
Post by: RAM on May 10, 2017, 03:50:43 am
Post by: Andres on May 10, 2017, 07:24:40 am
But if that wasn't enough, I'm happy for a simpler one:That is a much better tl;dr. I'd prefer if we could focus on our existing technologies until we get them to a level of basic sufficience first, but after that this is not a bad idea.
Crystalworks TL;DR: Use automation and energy storage to produce a plentiful supply of cheap crystal items.
TL;DR: We make a crystal shell around our HA1's to protect the artillery piece itself, the crew, and a small amount of ammunition.Read this:
Note: Streamlining any process required to build this will make it just barely Expensive. The biggest issue with this device is the spotting system and poor lethality of near-misses at high angles.The biggest issue with the HA1s that we're capable of solving isn't that they're too easy to destroy, it's that they simply don't do a lot of damage. At the range they're meant to operate at, explosive ammunition is necessary. It is important to make a useless thing useful first, then make it cheap or better protected.
Furthermore, I would like to note the large number of designs we have that haven't received a sufficient amount of refinement. Using our Design phase to make refined versions of designs we currently have will be more efficient and offer better returns than using the phase to give us yet more designs that need refinement to be useful.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 10, 2017, 09:11:19 am
See below.
Spoiler: Future Designs and Revisions (click to show/hide)
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 10, 2017, 09:22:23 am
Our artillery is perfectly fine and doesn't need to be improved, Lucky strike is going to be rendered pointless by our increased range, and the frost tower counterspell will fail due to frost tower deployement in the Desert.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 10, 2017, 09:26:37 am
The ammunition is still unique to each individual artillery piece due to variences in construction, and stone ammo crafted in the field will break and jam due to the incredible stresses the cannon puts on it. The incredible weight and size of the ammo means an entire supply train is needed to bring enough into battle for sustained firing. Likewise, the sheer size of the HA1 and need to be set up and taken down before moving means we will have to destroy it when retreating, lest it fall into Moskurg hands. It is too heavy to be mounted on any of our existing boats, and even if we could a single firing would flip it. The gold circuit is also proving to be less reliable; attempting to fire too fast means it can't cool down quickly enough and the gold will melt and run out of the engravings. Weapon failure generally occurs soon after. Additonally, the incredible rate at which the cannon consumes water means it must either ship water with the ammo or set up near a stream or lake. It is also very obvious - the cannon sticks out above our lines, making it a target if the enemy gets within firing range.Perfectly fine.
Well, at least it might be a lower priority.
We do have increased range, but we can't use it without a way to spot the enemy, and we only have Onslaughts in the approximate numbers that we used to have HC1-Es in, meaning it might not be enough to stop them from advancing.
Third point's fine, though. Attack from the mountains, presumably. Do we want to use Myark to attack the homeland?
Post by: andrea on May 10, 2017, 09:42:03 am
Expense IS a problem and is what we are trying to fix this turn with standardized bores and machine rifling.
accuracy, I would say it is not a problem. What IS a problem is our lack of area of effect shells.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 10, 2017, 11:09:43 am
Post by: Andres on May 10, 2017, 11:13:51 am
Post by: Roboson on May 10, 2017, 11:20:10 am
Heat is no longer a big problem with cannons, although not entirely solved.
Expense IS a problem and is what we are trying to fix this turn with standardized bores and machine rifling.
accuracy, I would say it is not a problem. What IS a problem is our lack of area of effect shells.
I agree. The enemy has accuracy, and area of effect ammunition. We don't have either. We have pretty good, yet still mundane, accuracy and low impact area. A very similar arms race actually happened during the American/Soviet Cold War. I don't remember the exact specifics, but it came down to the Americans having more accurate missiles or IBMs or whathaveyou. So what did the Soviets do? They just built bigger bombs. You don't have to be as accurate if your explosion range is large.
If we do anything else with our cannons in the near future, it should be some sort of explosive ammunition. I'm partial to
Works by turning the inside of a hollow shell into a frost tower. The spell builds up inside of the shell during storage. When the shell lands and is damaged, it releases the built up frost spell in a frost nova. Then if its not absolutely shredded, the shell continues to give off the Forever Frost spell.
Post by: andrea on May 10, 2017, 11:25:28 am
Unless we develop the spell equivalent of faraday cages.
That said, making the shell frosty may cause it to shatter from thermal stress, making shrapnel.
Post by: Roboson on May 10, 2017, 12:36:04 pm
what is going to happen is, as soon as the shell enters their antimagic field it will be deactivated and will just be a cold lump of metal.
Unless we develop the spell equivalent of faraday cages.
That said, making the shell frosty may cause it to shatter from thermal stress, making shrapnel.
Yeah, but as of now all our shells are just cold lumps of metal. We may as well have some that aren't. Plus, they can't anti-magic everything, they still need to magic their ballistas for them to luckystrike. Right now our shells come crashing out of the sky, and make small holes in the ground. Unless we're dead on target (almost impossible without lucky strike) then we may as well not be wasting the metal. We need a better blast range, even if some don't go off in anti-magic, its still incredibly worth it.
Post by: andrea on May 10, 2017, 12:38:40 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 10, 2017, 12:42:27 pm
A fireball engraving inside our spells would be very usefull.
On a side note, here's a proposal to deal with their annoying fire stuff.
Anti-fire Safety Blanket
Woven out of course Artotskan wool, and more importantly, a tiny amount of gold thread, this blanket includes a permanent cold spell similar to those used in our cannons. It is hence fireproof, and can be used to quench those annoying primitive fire pots.
Post by: andrea on May 10, 2017, 12:45:25 pm
Do remember, that the antimagic spell only prevents spells activating within it's range. Our fireballs did perfectly well if they activated before that.
Yes, this is what I mean. Whatever we do, it should activate before it is in range of their antimagic. a continuous effect like the frost shell risks being useless, since it relies on being able to work after it lands. While a mid flight fireball is explodey, causes metal shrapnel as well as the fire, and if triggered mid flight will be unaffected by their antimagic.
Post by: Roboson on May 10, 2017, 02:14:17 pm
Do remember, that the antimagic spell only prevents spells activating within it's range. Our fireballs did perfectly well if they activated before that.
Yes, this is what I mean. Whatever we do, it should activate before it is in range of their antimagic. a continuous effect like the frost shell risks being useless, since it relies on being able to work after it lands. While a mid flight fireball is explodey, causes metal shrapnel as well as the fire, and if triggered mid flight will be unaffected by their antimagic.
You realize that's only a secondary effect right? That's not the main purpose.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 10, 2017, 02:18:15 pm
And as for future improvements to the HA1, I think it's best to just use an expense credit on that if we get one.
As for fire countering, I think we should go for something a bit more versatile. Even something basic like a cheap frost spell would work.
What I think we need to do:
1.) Cement advantage at sea
2.) Counter lucky strike + fire bombs
3.) Skirmish capabilities.
Not necessarily in that order. I also want to fit Flare in one of the upcoming revisions to increase the effectiveness of our HA1's as well as skirmishing capabilities.
And I still really like the Crystal Barricade. For those who don't remember, it's a deployable crystal barricade usable by anyone. Helps for things like artillery but also everyone else once we get crystal anchoring.
And magegems. I think magegems are super important to do. They unlock a lot of future possibilities, after all.
And finally, as for shells, I still think that we should fix the Equalizer or build an AoE shell. AoE could probably just be a copy of their firebombs but using our fireball mastery and the Equalizer would be so much better if we could use it more often.
Post by: andrea on May 10, 2017, 02:33:12 pm
would be even better if it spread over a larger area.
Post by: Andres on May 10, 2017, 02:40:57 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 10, 2017, 02:43:43 pm
A cheaper and reliable Equalizer would go a very long way towards usefulness.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 10, 2017, 02:47:25 pm
Perhaps we can use our anti-magic crystals as a way to get explosive projectiles? Our current, rather awful anti-magic shells are built more to disable enemy magic than to do any damaging effect. Focusing on the latter would allow our munitions to bypass their anti-magical protection without creating some new kind of anti-magic resistant magic.
Glory to Arstotzka.
We did exactly that with our anti-magic arrows. The result was dissapointing, and instantly negated by their anti magic.
Post by: andrea on May 10, 2017, 02:49:05 pm
Post by: Roboson on May 10, 2017, 02:59:26 pm
Perhaps we can use our anti-magic crystals as a way to get explosive projectiles? Our current, rather awful anti-magic shells are built more to disable enemy magic than to do any damaging effect. Focusing on the latter would allow our munitions to bypass their anti-magical protection without creating some new kind of anti-magic resistant magic.
Glory to Arstotzka.
We did exactly that with our anti-magic arrows. The result was dissapointing, and instantly negated by their anti magic.
What we really need to do is create a high altitude anti-magic zone. When their projectiles pass through it, it will remove their luckystrike.
Edit: Our bomb arrows don't detonate in anti-magic zones, so it stands to reason that lucky strike arrows don't work if they go through an anti-magic zone either.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 10, 2017, 03:00:27 pm
Post by: Andres on May 10, 2017, 03:01:05 pm
That's possible, but I think the right way to go about it is revising the Equalizer to be more reliable and cheap. Cheap is possible as a bonus action if we can exploit the metal bonus.So long as the name of the new iteration of anti-magic shell is AS-AMM1, and so long as they do not further diminish the effect of our frost towers, I may be willing to support this.
A cheaper and reliable Equalizer would go a very long way towards usefulness.
We did exactly that with our anti-magic arrows. The result was dissapointing, and instantly negated by their anti magic.The result was disappointing because the projectiles were too small to do a lot of damage, to my memory, and the focus was on negating magic than doing damage. As for being negated, can you recall why they were being negated? How can anti-magic be itself negated by anti-magic?
What we really need to do is create a high altitude anti-magic zone. When their projectiles pass through it, it will remove their luckystrike.It will also negate our frost towers.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Roboson on May 10, 2017, 03:02:59 pm
What we really need to do is create a high altitude anti-magic zone. When their projectiles pass through it, it will remove their luckystrike.It will also negate our frost towers.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Doubtful. Maybe if you plan on sending our towers into space, but otherwise, not really.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 10, 2017, 03:11:01 pm
Quote
The result was disappointing because the projectiles were too small to do a lot of damage, to my memory, and the focus was on negating magic than doing damage. As for being negated, can you recall why they were being negated? How can anti-magic be itself negated by anti-magic?
They didn't negate any magic, so it's certainly not that. Blowing up is all they did.
And IIRC, they're negated because all other anti-magic drains the magic away from the charm, preventing it from accumulating sufficient power for detonated.
Post by: Andres on May 10, 2017, 03:45:59 pm
And IIRC, they're negated because all other anti-magic drains the magic away from the charm, preventing it from accumulating sufficient power for detonated.What if we made them accumulate power before we launched the arrows instead of hoping they accumulated power from the magic of the enemy mages?
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 10, 2017, 03:50:34 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 10, 2017, 03:51:14 pm
Besides, the point of Equalizer shells is that they disable magic with a radius much bigger than that of any possible AoE shell. Ideally, they'd do as much damage as a regular shell.
BUT I am okay with the idea of more "active" counters since I'm afraid of us countering their stuff, relaxing, then suddenly getting crushed when they counter our counter. We should be diverse in counters as well as non-counters.
Post by: Roboson on May 10, 2017, 04:01:28 pm
Mini-game:
In the year 915 a great meteor crashed into Arstotzka and created the Foe Ax Crater. At the time our people took it as a sign of our inevitable victory against the evil Moskurg hoard. Years later, the wizard Roboson led an exploratory expedition into the crater. What he discovered was not a sign from the gods, but actually a gift. In the crater a small iron rich meteor was discovered with unusual properties.
There was little of the strange celestial iron, only enough to make one unique object. Seeing a great opportunity here, he shared the information with his colleagues in an attempt to find the best use of this gift from above. Roboson offers one year of his votes to the person who creates a passing design that utilizes this celestial iron. (Redeemable by telling Roboson what to vote for).
Post by: Andres on May 10, 2017, 04:04:06 pm
If we don't try again with that design, we should instead focus on the frost towers. We won the Mountains with barely a fight because of them, so developing along that path will be very helpful.
The Onslaught was a bad idea from the very beginning. Leaving aside the problem of it being a large overreach, it meant once again neglecting the refinement of things we already have and did not help with any of the problems we're dealing with. No more new designs until we can make what we already have work.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 10, 2017, 04:10:05 pm
But no. It's helpful. Maybe spend a revision on lightening it at some point or design the Crystaclad to fit it, and it'll be even better.
Right now I'm leaning most towards the Flare revision (again, definitely a revision - we severely lower the power of our cheapest fireball to make it really bright and multi-colored) or Equalizer revision.
For design, I dunno. I want to move towards the Crystalclad, which involves Magegems and the Crystalworks. (And by the way - another advantage of the Crystalworks is that it just overall increases crystal quality. )
But we'll see next turn. I'm sure Moskurg has done something extremely OP like rocket-propelled guided fire bombs with one design. (/s)
Post by: evictedSaint on May 10, 2017, 04:15:56 pm
Oh, on an unrelated note, how are your rifled barrels, cannons, shaped ammunition, large-scale steel castings, steam engines and plate armors treating you?
Post by: Andres on May 10, 2017, 04:21:41 pm
There was little of the strange celestial iron, only enough to make one unique object. Seeing a great opportunity here, he shared the information with his colleagues in an attempt to find the best use of this gift from above. Roboson offers one year of his votes to the person who creates a passing design that utilizes this celestial iron. (Redeemable by telling Roboson what to vote for).AS-HB. This scepter, when activated, serves as a beacon that can be seen from the palaces of the gods themselves. This beacon allows their angels to make their way down to the earth and smite Moskurgs with mercy and holy fire. Due to the magical and holy nature of the scepter, it itself is a powerful melee weapon.
Right now I'm leaning most towards the Flare revision (again, definitely a revision - we severely lower the power of our cheapest fireball to make it really bright and multi-colored) or Equalizer revision.You have evidently caught a brain bug. You read a small part of an update and while you may have originally jsut paid it some passing thought, it has grown inside your mind to be of great import, even though it is in reality not very important at all. It happens to everyone in these kinds of game at some point.
There are better things to do than make it easier for us to see when Moskurgs are skirmishing with us or vice-versa. More important things are removing their artillery advantage (Equaliser shells), killing entire Moskurg armies without a fight (frost towers), and securing a naval advantage by making a cheaper ship designed around our new steam engine.
For design, I dunno. I want to move towards the Crystalclad, which involves Magegems and the Crystalworks. (And by the way - another advantage of the Crystalworks is that it just overall increases crystal quality. )NO! As I have said before, we have a major problem of us moving quickly to a new design instead of refining older designs so that they become useful. Crystalclads are far too ambitious and require development of new technologies. We must learn from the severe overreach of the Onslaught. A middle step is needed, probably several, and only after refining what technologies we have to a sufficient level.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Yeah...sorry about that. I have a tendency to make some things too possible/powerful/easy.Very poorly. Obviously you are super biased to Moskurg and you should give us free technologies to compensate. :P
Oh, on an unrelated note, how are your rifled barrels, cannons, shaped ammunition, large-scale steel castings, steam engines and plate armors treating you?
But seriously, I'm pretty sure Chiefwaffles was just joking.
Post by: Roboson on May 10, 2017, 04:23:38 pm
Yeah...sorry about that. I have a tendency to make some things too possible/powerful/easy.
Oh, on an unrelated note, how are your rifled barrels, cannons, shaped ammunition, large-scale steel castings, steam engines and plate armors treating you?
Lol! Sick GM burn.
Post by: RAM on May 10, 2017, 04:24:11 pm
Because we didn't want it to go off in our own antimagic fields. I kind of dispute this, because the reasoning was that because it operated on our own antimagic theories, and the individual components were weaker than a full charm, the charm would absorb the magic before the bomb could get at it. But the reason that they don't detobnate is because 'they don't work in antimagic'... I feel that they should detonate in 'positive' antimagic, such as jamming fields and disruption forces. They should also detonate in 'neutral' antimagic, such as a binding effect on atmospheric magic, just at a slower rate, they will still absorb whatever they touch and still suck on their surroundings, it will just be that there is a force opposing them. Where they will not detonate is in 'negative' antimagic, which takes the magic away. Well, they can't absorb anything if there is nothing there to absorb... They were specifically designed to be weak to our own antimagic, but our charms are completely ineffective(Actually total non-interaction, it didn't even fluctuate or bend towards our charms or something...) against theoir antimagic too, so it is not a matter of force. Their antimagic also works over a range, and somehow can be magically manipulated into a magical dead-zone... Honestly, I think we should revise deicide as a means of countering their antimagic...We did exactly that with our anti-magic arrows. The result was dissapointing, and instantly negated by their anti magic.The result was disappointing because the projectiles were too small to do a lot of damage, to my memory, and the focus was on negating magic than doing damage. As for being negated, can you recall why they were being negated? How can anti-magic be itself negated by anti-magic?
I was going to write this whole thing breaking down RAM's Spell-forged Steamworks proposal and how it was extremely over-ambitious (definitely more-so than the HA1 - just look at the post yourself (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761)) and how its benefits were vague and kitchen sink-yPlease reconsider, I would like to know the specific points that are concerning so that I can address them specificall. So far all I have is "over-ambitious" which sounds sort of liek a good thing to me. We may have trouble getting it to work but it seems worth it. But if there are specific points of concern then I can try to refine the design...
river powers steam enginesI do not know how a river could power our steam-engines. They work because of magical heating. It could serve as a source of water but they are already very water-efficient. I think that mechanical heating would be a massive invetment in research.
Instead of wasting wizards to make exact shapes of crystal, we let machinery do it for us. ...I don't understand how this works. We can currently make crystals to specifiic shapes, the circuits used to summon the crystals should be able to do the same. Also, being crystals, they are somewhat reliabnt upon their internal structure. It is not entirely impossible that some form of compression would enhance their qualities of hardness or weight, and it is possible that the substance that they are composed of could be modified, but the question again arises, if we find that this is possible, why not change the summoning spells to create this new material. I have failed to understand how an assembly line helps when you can conjure a fully-formed object from thin-air.
the crystal starts as raw "blobs" but its hardness, weight, shape, and more is refined and manipulated ...
The result is much cheaper crystal items and products.
We've found that crystals are, in a way, "bound" to the summoning wizard. Being dispelled is likely breaking the connection to the wizard. So what if we made the crystals connected to themselves? Then the crystal is a solid object, now completely free of magic and immune to dispelling. The nature of the circuits used in the Crystalworks works great for this - the circuits can easily make "isolated" Crystal because the circuits are "isolated" themselves. No wizard is making this crystal.This is very similar to what we have already done in binding the crystal objects to gems. I believe that the gem-bund axes that our thanes used were also dispelled, so binding them to the world didn't help. I can see that recursively binding them to themselves could give reality enough of a headache to just ignore them, but antimagic immunity? This makes them more magical, not less, unless I misunderstand. Is there some sort of magical quarantine effect that I missed that keeps their antimagic from reaching the circuits? Making them self-contained whould help if we had such a quarantine effect, but I would expect that we would prefer to extend it over our entire force if possible...
The result is permanent crystals no longer tied to magic and therefore no longer dispelable.
But mostly I have my own pet theory that hey are inherently opposed by reality because they came into being without replacing anything(like a house would replace a pile of bricks and lumber and nails and what-have you...) that would be invalidated by your theory. So imma fight ye!
As a very minor feature in addition to the selling points of the Crystalworks, it's created in a very modular configuration. It has multiple crystal lines and more can be added easily. These lines can be configured without difficulty to produce different products as we come up with new crystal-based designs.I like to think that we have enough crystal expertise to make new crystal formation spells without much effort.
mundane aspects such as these conveyorsIreally don't know the history of conveyors, but it sounds like something that may increase the difficulty. When not augmented by magic our mundane stuff is still middle-ages.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 10, 2017, 04:27:47 pm
Though some are easier to counter than others. *cough*luckystrike*cough* But in the end it usually mostly evens out and I'm (mostly) okay with that.
Spoiler: Very Mild "Rant" NO GMs ALLOWED (click to show/hide)
@Andres. Skirmishing is important and just dominating in one area of battles even more won't fix that. We need to pay attention to all stages of the battle.
Re: Crystalclad. Yes. That's my point. That's why we need things like Magegems then the Crystalworks first.
Re: Heaven beacon. Oh dear god. That is the very definition of a new field. We'd get so many
Penalties if we tried that.
@RAM: I will address that when I'm on my PC. Which is very soon.
Post by: Andres on May 10, 2017, 04:34:54 pm
@Andres. Skirmishing is important and just dominating in one area of battles even more won't fix that. We need to pay attention to all stages of the battle.I know that skirmishing is important, but we are not suffering in that area of battles as much as in others. And again, frost towers kill entire armies regardless of stage of battle.
Re: Crystalclad. Yes. That's my point. That's why we need things like Magegems then the Crystalworks first.Ah. I thought you meant to get those technologies by designing the Crystalclad. I greatly misunderstood and I agree with your conclusion.
Re: Heaven beacon. Oh dear god. That is the very definition of a new field. We'd get so manyThat...wasn't a serious suggestion for us to do. Roboson is rewarding based on how interesting a design is, not how sensible it is.
Penalties if we tried that.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 10, 2017, 04:37:41 pm
B/c I'm super bored today. Evicted, if this is not ok (as it depends on not confirmed information or is just not allowed), let me know and I'll delete this post.
Mini-game:
In the year 915 a great meteor crashed into Arstotzka and created the Foe Ax Crater. At the time our people took it as a sign of our inevitable victory against the evil Moskurg hoard. Years later, the wizard Roboson led an exploratory expedition into the crater. What he discovered was not a sign from the gods, but actually a gift. In the crater a small iron rich meteor was discovered with unusual properties.
There was little of the strange celestial iron, only enough to make one unique object. Seeing a great opportunity here, he shared the information with his colleagues in an attempt to find the best use of this gift from above. Roboson offers one year of his votes to the person who creates a passing design that utilizes this celestial iron. (Redeemable by telling Roboson what to vote for).
Hmmm...this actually gives me an idea.
And to clarify, your anti-magic gems absorb all magic in their range of effect very, very quickly, essentially creating a magical vaccum and dispensing of the energy as an annoying hum. Your antimagic bomb arrows do not explode in this field.
You do not know how the Moskurgs anti-magic works, but it seems to be based on their religeous zeal. Your antimagic bombs do not explode in their field, either.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 10, 2017, 04:39:33 pm
Over-ambitious means we get heavy penalties to the whole thing and makes it much more likely for us to get an unusable design and impossible for us to get an actually good outcome.I was going to write this whole thing breaking down RAM's Spell-forged Steamworks proposal and how it was extremely over-ambitious (definitely more-so than the HA1 - just look at the post yourself (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761)) and how its benefits were vague and kitchen sink-yPlease reconsider, I would like to know the specific points that are concerning so that I can address them specificall. So far all I have is "over-ambitious" which sounds sort of liek a good thing to me. We may have trouble getting it to work but it seems worth it. But if there are specific points of concern then I can try to refine the design...
Hence why it's in a new design. The crystalworks' whole thing is assembly line production of crystals to make them cheaper + better. That's the improvement. And yes, we can conjure them out of thin air, but that takes manpower and time. Doing the same with a circuit requires a much more complicated circuit and if it breaks, the whole thing has to be replaced. An assembly line is more efficient.river powers steam enginesI do not know how a river could power our steam-engines. They work because of magical heating. It could serve as a source of water but they are already very water-efficient. I think that mechanical heating would be a massive invetment in research.Instead of wasting wizards to make exact shapes of crystal, we let machinery do it for us. ...I don't understand how this works. We can currently make crystals to specifiic shapes, the circuits used to summon the crystals should be able to do the same. Also, being crystals, they are somewhat reliabnt upon their internal structure. It is not entirely impossible that some form of compression would enhance their qualities of hardness or weight, and it is possible that the substance that they are composed of could be modified, but the question again arises, if we find that this is possible, why not change the summoning spells to create this new material. I have failed to understand how an assembly line helps when you can conjure a fully-formed object from thin-air.
the crystal starts as raw "blobs" but its hardness, weight, shape, and more is refined and manipulated ...
The result is much cheaper crystal items and products.
Also just the standard fluff hand-wave. If we had to make all our designs perfectly logical, this wouldn't be "Wands Race".
The idea is that we make the crystals mundane. They go from "magical item sustained temporarily in reality by magic" to "mundane item initially created via magic". Mundane items can't be dispelled.We've found that crystals are, in a way, "bound" to the summoning wizard. Being dispelled is likely breaking the connection to the wizard. So what if we made the crystals connected to themselves? Then the crystal is a solid object, now completely free of magic and immune to dispelling. The nature of the circuits used in the Crystalworks works great for this - the circuits can easily make "isolated" Crystal because the circuits are "isolated" themselves. No wizard is making this crystal.This is very similar to what we have already done in binding the crystal objects to gems. I believe that the gem-bund axes that our thanes used were also dispelled, so binding them to the world didn't help. I can see that recursively binding them to themselves could give reality enough of a headache to just ignore them, but antimagic immunity? This makes them more magical, not less, unless I misunderstand. Is there some sort of magical quarantine effect that I missed that keeps their antimagic from reaching the circuits? Making them self-contained whould help if we had such a quarantine effect, but I would expect that we would prefer to extend it over our entire force if possible...
The result is permanent crystals no longer tied to magic and therefore no longer dispelable.
But mostly I have my own pet theory that hey are inherently opposed by reality because they came into being without replacing anything(like a house would replace a pile of bricks and lumber and nails and what-have you...) that would be invalidated by your theory. So imma fight ye!
Yeah. This aspect is just here to say "Crystalworks will also apply to new crystal-based stuff, not just existing things."As a very minor feature in addition to the selling points of the Crystalworks, it's created in a very modular configuration. It has multiple crystal lines and more can be added easily. These lines can be configured without difficulty to produce different products as we come up with new crystal-based designs.I like to think that we have enough crystal expertise to make new crystal formation spells without much effort.
I really don't know the history of conveyors, but it sounds like something that may increase the difficulty. When not augmented by magic our mundane stuff is still middle-ages.Conveyors are another almost entirely fluff piece. I'm positive they won't give us penalties. And if we get a mediocre Bugs roll, then sure, the conveyors may break down, but that's instead of something else.
@Andres again: Of course, we'll see with the combat phase what areas we need to improve on, but I'm fairly sure our new artillery will let us win in that area easily. Melee is something I think we've been slightly winning in, but skirmishing we're losing in (stupid firegrenades) and it's definitely hurting us.
Besides, the Flare's main point is easy battlefield communications. Lighting up areas for skirmishes is a bonus. If we didn't need a way to spot for the HA1, then I would definitely not be proposing it.
Post by: Andres on May 10, 2017, 04:44:15 pm
Besides, the Flare's main point is easy battlefield communications. Lighting up areas for skirmishes is a bonus. If we didn't need a way to spot for the HA1, then I would definitely not be proposing it.We should keep this to a Revision at most. I see the value in it but to spend a full Design on it would be wasteful.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 10, 2017, 05:08:54 pm
Quote
shaped ammunition
We have shaped ammunition?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 10, 2017, 05:25:53 pm
Future Revision: Flare
One night, when a bored mage was staring at the theatre from the top of a Frost Tower, he noticed the bright fires all over the theatre located where the fighting was thanks to the
So, he thought - why not use that?
The idea is simple: Use our fireballs for communication. The Streamlined Fireball is taken as the base, then instead of destructive power, our Mathemagicians tweak the Fireball spell to create massive amounts of light and to allow casting mages to choose the color. Now the Streamlined Fireball can be shot upwards into the sky, where it'll provide illumination on the ground below and signal other soldiers in the area. Certain colors can also be interpreted to mean different things - for example, red could be used to signal for artillery strikes, blue could be used to signal enemy troop locations, and the illumination provided by the flare will light up the ground below at night, making it easier for our men in skirmishes. Some have even theorized that strings of different colors could be used to send "encoded" messages across troops.
The extremely decrease destructive power of the Flare means it simply burns out before it can fall back to the ground.
How?
1.) Increase the brightness of the Streamlined Fireball at the expense of power. (While the flare is in a way a new spell, it's such a simple tweak (power -> brightness) that it should definitely be able to be done in a revision. )
2.) Add colors
Why?
1.) Artillery spotting. Flares can be used to signal for HA1 strikes at that destination.
2.) General battlefield communication - not extremely effective and not extremely secure, but it allows for basic communications.
3.) Skirmishing. We can create artificial light benefitting us during the night.
And @Ebbor: Our ammunition is in fact shaped, yes. I believe one of the HC1-E revisions gave our shells shapes similar to actual shells used by real life artillery. They're still stone, though, I think.
EDIT: Nope, not stone, as Evicted points out in his post after this one. We can craft stone ammunition on the field if the artillery piece runs out of ammo, but it's unreliable. I misread that line to take it as "the fact that we use stone ammo is bad".
Post by: evictedSaint on May 10, 2017, 05:58:24 pm
And no, your shells are all iron. Rock spheres were an intermediate cost-cutting measure.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 10, 2017, 06:21:14 pm
Joke Revision: AS-HA2 "pls nerf"
Okay, having extra-LOS artillery is nice and all, but what if we went beyond that?
Introducing the AS-HA2, with what we now call "super-extreme extra-LOS" range. All our HA2's can be set up in the Taiga where they can fire literally anywhere onto the continent using EXTREME RIFLING as well as guided-fireball-propulsion.
The shells are extremely large and can fit the equivalent of 1,000 magegems inside creating a huge magical explosion that could annihilate a city.
Furthermore, as is reasonable to do in a design, we have developed an extra shell that we can put troops inside. Featuring leather seating and crystal seatbelts, we can launch our troops anywhere on the continent with no resistance! Oh yeah, and when the shell lands it turns into a tank thanks to putting a steam engine and historically-accurate tank treads on it. And another AS-HA2 on it.
And don't forget that each shell also counts as a flare.
This design is of course very simple, as all it involves is a couple of tweaks to the HA1 and some very minor research into extremely mobile tank treads. I'm aiming for Expensive here.
Post by: RAM on May 10, 2017, 06:52:01 pm
strange celestial ironAn extensive analysis of its structure revealed that it contained vast amounst of inherently unstable magic. We split it into two parts, forced all the stable material out of it using conured material to displace it, then mounted it into a cannon shell with the two components separated by a short-lived crystal wafer and backed by a number of antimagic bombs triggered to detonate when a magical storage crystal at the tip shatters, releasing all its magic. The force of the impact combined with the force of the dtonating antimagic bombs will force the two lumps of unstable material together causing the unstable material to overload and undergo a process of rapid decay. Unfortunately, all the workers involved in examining and handling the material have died from a mysterious contamination of their auras. This appears to be only minimally contagious as a weaker contamination produces a much weaker contamination effect. We suspect that this aura contamination will be distriuted over the target area and result in the region being unable to be resettled or exploited without protective enchantments. We call this the National Unification by Killing Effect.
Post by: Roboson on May 10, 2017, 07:45:21 pm
Never mind, I just missed it.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 10, 2017, 07:47:59 pm
We got a 2 and didn't successfully cheapen the HA1, but we did cheapen the HC1-E and therefore made the original HC1 obsolete. There were some minor improvements in accuracy and reliability for both the HA1 and HC1-E, however.
It was Barrel Boring (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7448865#msg7448865).
Post by: Roboson on May 10, 2017, 09:01:51 pm
Edit: Actually its two decades as of this year. Happy anniversary wraiths.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 11, 2017, 02:30:45 pm
Our guards stand on the edge of our camps at night, scanning the horizon, alert, ready, waiting for the inevitable Moskurg raiders to come charging through. Our apprentices cast crystal caltrops, just knowing it’s a fruitless countermeasure. It hasn’t stopped them for years, but it’s a necessary gesture – it forces them to bring their anti-magic to bear. A lucky archer might be able to snipe the staff-wielding mage and prevent the raid altogether, but that’s a slim chance all on its own. Meanwhile, our men sleep lightly in their tents further into camp, wearily wondering if tonight will be the night they can get a full nights sleep. Our Theatre Commander stays up late and pours over maps and strategies and troop logistics in a desperate attempt to find some way to break the Moskurg lines and regain a foothold in the jungle.
In the dead of night, a pair of grenades explode in the middle of camp.
Chaos erupts as fire begins popping up at random in the camp, burning tents and equipment to ash and sending flaming soldiers stumbling for some semblance of protection. We are caught entirely unaware, and as soon as it starts the attack stops. This happens again, and again, until our camps are massive, sprawling things spaced out as far as we can feasibly make them.
Our own attacks are successful, but nowhere near as devastating. Our snipers can kill a dozen men at a time with no casualties, and our heavy calvary can do more damage but at the cost of being cut down. Our mages can’t bring their fire to bear due to their anti-magic, and without Moskurg being left shivering in the cold we can’t even rely on the elements to help.
Moskurg has a massive skirmish advantage.
Our new artillery shows its strength on the battlefield. Moskurg is camped on the edge of the jungle, intent on holding their line. Nothing can compare to the reach of the HA1, and we can shell them with impunity from long range. The effect of the artillery is unclear; we’re simply shelling locations where Moskurg might be. Barrages must stop periodically due to a lack of ammunition, but in the taiga we are rarely without water. The swampy lands that border the jungle provide the water we need, and further north into the tundra we will have plenty of snow we could easily melt into water. Still, despite these drawbacks the shelling must be having some effect. We can see something rising from Moskurg lines – a balloon, perhaps? Soon after Moskurg will roll forward with their ballistas and the shelling begins in earnest.
Their ballistas are still uncannily accurate, but we now have HC1-E’s as our main artillery force. The small cannons aren’t as accurate and they don’t have fire-shells like Moskurg, but they fire much more quickly. Plus, we still have our HA1’s, which have a much larger caliber. We don’t have time to disassemble the HA1’s and reassemble them further back, so they’re stuck at Extreme Range with the rest of the artillery. Their large size makes them an immediate target and they are destroyed one-by-one, but they do manage to take a couple ballistas with them.
The prior shelling and the larger, accurate HA1’s tip things in our favor, even though the HC1’s are evenly matched with the ballistas. Curiously, there are fewer ballistas than usual, but this only emboldens our men. We make some progress pushing them back…until their mages fly overhead. It’s a new Moskurg trick, flying; their mages slowly drift over our lines, just barely within reach of our longbows. Once their fire grenades start falling from above the nature of their nightly attacks becomes clear. The bombing is terribly effective. Our archers begin firing upwards with some minor success, managing to pick off a wizard, but the arrows that miss begin falling back down into our own troop lines. Right away they put up their disgusting shields of wind, which is effective at deflecting the stray, spent arrow that would otherwise kill. It is at this point our Mage-Hunters start shooting.
Mage-Hunters, with their superior bow skills and anti-magic bomb arrows, are effective at stopping the Moskurg threat. The explosive nature of the arrow means they don’t even have to have a direct hit; the shrapnel is effective at sending them tumbling from the skies. From the wizards who come down we find that they seem to be riding…rolled up carpets? It’s a cheap Moskurg trick, and their floor-ware doesn’t save them from out bomb arrows. We even come close to knocking out al-Mutriqa, sailing by with his multi-colored cloak and black phantasm troops, but pulls back in time. We manage to repel to Moskurg air forces, but by this point our lines are in complete disarray. Moskurg charges across the gap between our lines and does a solid job of mopping things up, and we are forced to retreat further into our homelands. Moskurg has gained a section of Taiga.
Our Theatre Commander gravely informs us that Moskurg has gained a foothold in our homelands. They will be hampered by our fleet and the cold if they attempt to push further, but for the moment they’ve pressed beyond the jungle. He notes that our bomb arrows were particularly effective at repulsing the enemy, but during night raids it’s difficult to spy Moskurg wizards above. This has a huge detriment to our war effort. The HA1 is also effective, but our inability to spot where our shells are landing is hurting us. In a similar vein, the difficulty of keeping them supplied when they go through 4 shells per minute keeps our barrages from being constant. He discounts the flying trick as just that: a trick. They move slow, they fly relatively low, and now that we know to watch out for them our Mage-Hunters will be able to keep them away. Flight will have absolutely no role in warfare beyond this one, single surprise trick.
He does note that the HC1-E is doing its job quite nicely, and is able to stand up to their main ballista force all on its own. On a brighter note, he mentions that small growths of plants have begun popping up in the jungle now that it is no longer snowing, suggesting that the environmental devastation both sides has visited upon it will not be permanent.
Moskurg maintains their hold on the jungle and may now exploit what wood remains for resources.
Moskurg has gained a section of taiga!
We assault the desert from the mountains.
Our Towers of Frost make the descent into the badlands that separate the mountains from the desert bearable. The rocky, sandy soil is poor for trenchbuilding and we have a minor height advantage coming from the mountains, so they have a difficult time defending. Our HA1 does a great deal of work, firing as often as the limited ammo supply will allow. Battles are brief, intense, and bloody. Without tree cover their flying wizards are easier to spot during raids, but it’s difficult to take advantage of seeing them coming. Firing upwards at night is a tricky task, and though they take more casualties during the skirmishes here than they did in the jungle, they still manage to maintain a firm lead with regards to skirmishing.
Our new artillery is still plagued by limited supplies and the difficulty of knowing where we’re hitting, so at Beyond LOS range they’re not as effective as they could be. Our most valuable asset is our HC1-E’s, which excel in the open terrain, especially at Long or Medium range due to shots skipping across the smooth sandy ground. Our heavy calvary and men are uncomfortable in the heat despite the assistance of the Towers of Frost, but even worse is the wind blowing sand in our face. It hinders visibility and finds its way into every nook and cranny. Even worse, the warm weather means storms are possible again, and their lightning strikes tend to favor the large metal HA1’s. The constant rain means we at least have the water to feed our HA1’s, so again the limiting factor becomes spotting and ammo supply. Without the lightning it might have been a close battle, but we are sadly forced back.
Our Theatre Commander desperately wants to use the HA1’s more, but we don’t even know if we’re hitting at BLOS range. Their air troops do a decent job at harassing our men, although it’s primarily only at night. The Mage-Hunters do a good job at keeping them at bay during the day, but they are still managing to get through at times and they can’t be everywhere. If it weren’t for our bomb arrows they would have complete control of the skies.
Arstotzka fails to gain ground in the desert.
Things go differently in the plains.
Our HA1 doesn’t need to see where it’s hitting here. We already know where their emplacements and trenchlines are. They fire as soon as they’re fed ammo, and the sudden increase in range forces Moskurg to creep their lines backwards. Advancement is slow, but successful. Much like in the desert, the constant rain and light snow lets them occasionally bring their lightning to bear, randomly striking where it may. The HA1’s are commonly struck, requiring repairs often. Again, the lack of tree cover means their air forces are less effective during skirmishes and during assaults and we shoot a fair number of them down, but it’s an effective tactic. Clearly these mages used to be powering their ballistas, which is why Moskurg has been fielding fewer this year.
Our men are still growing sick due to sitting in trenches, but the increased distance between the trenches means they no longer have to be worried about being randomly struck by a lucky artillery shot. Now all they have to worry about are carpet-riding zealots dropping grenades into the trenches. The HA1 isn’t enough to win the day all on its own, but it is definitely more of an advantage here and we are able to push Moskurg onto the back foot. Another year of this and we’ll be able to take another section of plains.
Our Theatre Commander is worried about the carpet-riders. He, unlike the Theatre Commander in the jungle, fears that this represents another change in combat doctrine – much like when they first introduced their ballistas. He urges our design team to develop a counter as quickly as possible and develop our own air force, lest we lag behind in this ever-changing war.
Neither side gains ground in the plains.
Battles in the sea benefit greatly from the HC1-E. The decrease in cost means our ships can now all afford to be outfitted with the superior cannon. A single ship with an HC1-E is a match for a Moskurg ship equipped with a ballista, although they both tend to sink from damage sustained. The SPB is faster than Moskurgs ships and can dictate when and where engagements happen, and are able to sink several Moskurg ships for each one lost. This alone would let us further our hold on the seas, were it not for Moskurgs air forces. Countering their carpet riders is even more difficult on the pitching seas, but thankfully our SPB’s are faster and can keep out from under their deadly area of effect. They are much more effective against our regular non-steam boats. Ultimately, both sides slaughter each other a lot and no one gains any ground.
Our Theatre Commander asks for the design team to develop a larger boat that could either carry multiple HC1-E’s or a HA1. We could so easily take the seas from those Moskurg dogs, if only we had the tools to do so.
Neither side gains ground in the Eastern or Western Seas.
Revision Credit!!!
Many years ago, a brilliantly red shooting star sailed across the skies, inspiring our troops and foretelling our eventual victory. Once again the star is seen above, leaving a long red tail behind it as it makes its way across the sky. To our surprise, this year the star doesn’t disappear back into the heavens. Instead we watch as it comes down far to the east, striking the earth far beyond the horizon. Plans are instantly made to travel to the landing site and claim whatever we may find there. It will be a long journey, and it will be dangerous. No doubt Moskurg will also make an attempt to lay their foul hands on whatever God has chosen to send us, so whatever forces we send must be able to deal with them accordingly.
The King asks for your judgement on what troops to send to claim the fallen star. Keep in mind that whatever troops we send will be unable to fight for us this year, and if our opponent sends a superior force to claim the star they will likely crush what troops we send. We don’t know what we will find when we get there, or indeed if anything even will be there, but it’s not something our King is willing to leave to chance. What should we send?
It is 933, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 933 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Behavior Rules. Please Read.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 11, 2017, 02:38:57 pm
Possible solutions:
1.) HC3 - breech loading cannon with smaller caliber shells, on a swivel mount allowing for (nearly?) 360 degrees angles. The cannon fires MUCH faster.
2.) Hot-air balloon. It won't be as manyevarable as their stuff but it will be more sturdy and heavier. Maybe we could even mount an HC1-E on it?
3.) Guided fireballs
4.) Guided shells/arrows
5.) Flak shell - a shell that blows apart either after a timer (circuits) or magic field (of course the things are magical).
6.) We make a design exploiting a weak point in their current designs to make up for the disadvantage.
7.) Improve mage hunters somehow.
8.) Improve Anti-magic ammunition
9.) Firebomb counter
10.) Improved Anti-magic charms. (Higher range + selective in one design to make them drop out of he sky when they get close?)
11.) Anything else that's good.
12.) Antiantimagic would really help even the fields. Right now a major reason we're hurting in Skirmishes is anti-magic.
13.) Some air unit better than a hot air balloon.
Flare shouldn't be put on hold though. It still provides a skirmishing advantage and we desperately need one. The commander even said darkness is a problem. Flares would help greatly.
Crystalworks is still a very viable option since we need protection even more now.
So right now I think Crystalworks + Flare or HC3 + Flare. Or improvement of antimagic stuff.
EDIT: Magegems are extremely viable too. Even more so now we're at risk of them deploying anti-magic near our artillery. Mundane-ifying things would be extremely beneficial. Besides, even with their advantage it's pretty clear it'd be extremely hard for them to push forwards more.
Post by: Andres on May 11, 2017, 02:45:16 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 11, 2017, 02:48:21 pm
Investing in infrastructure this turn for future advancements is still a good idea since we should be able to hold them off for another turn unless they introduce another extremely powerful thing in one turn.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 11, 2017, 02:51:36 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on May 11, 2017, 02:52:09 pm
Wait, were they using their anti magic while riding the carpets?
No.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 11, 2017, 02:52:52 pm
We get a -3 penalty on building a slightly bigger cannon, but Moskurg gets to invent superstealthy, supereffective, and apparently cheap flight in what appears to be a single turn? (I try to keep track of previous turns. They did not have the free time, unless this design is 4-5 turns old)
When we rolled well on Plant Magic, we got the ability to create knee height shrubberies.
When we spend several turns on steam engines, we got a design that can just barely outpace the Moskurgians in a single area.
When we create a steamship based on previous technologies that we had long since researched, and rolled lucky, it was a flaw riddled wreck.
But Moskurg gets to open a new branch of magic, replicate the effect of one of the Starting Wands (which are awesome and powerful national effort spells), and not only do it in a single turn, but massively improve upon it?
This is far, far worse than the Fire projectiles they got. I do not know how many of your family they took hostage, but this design simply needs to be scrapped.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 11, 2017, 02:54:44 pm
Wait, were they using their anti magic while riding the carpets?
No.
Then why weren't we shooting the enemy mages out of the sky with fireballs? I just honestly want to know because it makes a huge difference in how we combat them.
Post by: Andres on May 11, 2017, 02:56:46 pm
I think that's a bad idea. When our frost we're not effective than they are now it still didn't work to stop them when they didn't have firebombs and air units. We need something to actually stop them.They were entirely effective when we managed to make it cold enough, such as in the Mountains. We basically walked all over them there, every single one of their advantages made irrelevant.
Your reasoning is incredibly illogical. You're saying that our frost towers didn't win us the battle in the Jungle and that's why we shouldn't do more frost towers. This is ignores the fact that the Jungle is naturally hotter than the Mountains which means it takes more to make them freeze and it ignores the fact that our men would fight at penalty due to the heat without our frost towers. Worst of all, it entirely misses the point of making frost towers better, which is to make the Jungle as cold as the Mountains despite the heat by making the towers produce more cold.
Furthermore, there are also the Plains to consider, and how they are colder than the Jungle. Just revising our current frost towers to be cheaper and thus doubling the amount we have would turn that place into a frozen wasteland, as they did in the Mountains. Combined with a proper Design to make them and they'd have no chance, even if they devise a counter this turn.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 11, 2017, 02:59:15 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on May 11, 2017, 03:04:14 pm
And what are you talking about rolling a -3? Your effectiveness was rolled with no penalties, a -2 for expense for being made out of your most expensive tech, and a -1 for bugs for being larger than anything you've ever made. It's the most long-range, powerful, lethal cannon in the world that Moskurg can't even hope to compare with without redesigning their ballista, it can fire 4 times a minute, is lacking ammo types and spotters, and you're upset that Moskurg made flying carpets? You've already got arrows that by default explode when they're close to an enemy mage. You are overstating the disparity between you guys, all because you were caught off-guard by their new invention.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 11, 2017, 03:06:36 pm
Wait, were they using their anti magic while riding the carpets?
No.
Then why weren't we shooting the enemy mages out of the sky with fireballs? I just honestly want to know because it makes a huge difference in how we combat them.
Because shooting a fireball straight up will really hurt if it misses, and they have approximately the same range as a longbow. Explosive bomb arrows were more effective, so I decided not to write "your mages kill their own troops when they miss".
Post by: Andres on May 11, 2017, 03:17:19 pm
Frost towers are basically a passive debuff to their army. That won't work - we need to actually actively directly counter their stuff. Just increasing a passive debuff won't remove the fact that they have fire bombers.You CONTINUE to ignore that at cold enough temperatures, the Moskurgs don't just get debuffed, they start dying. How many times do I need to point how they alone wiped out all meaningful resistance in the Mountains? The frost towers as they are are just a debuff to their army (at least on the Plains and Jungle), which is why I'm arguing to make them better. If we make them better, they won't just be a passive debuff to their army, they will eradicate their armies, at the very least on the Plains.
Glory to Arstotzka.
EDIT: And just to make it perfectly clear, their bombers will also start dying once we make the climate they fly in cold enough.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 11, 2017, 03:19:01 pm
Considering they spent a Design to make it, a Revision to make it stop killing their mages, an expense credit to make it cheap, and they don't have enough wizards to man both all their ballistas and their carpets, AND they had the appropriate modifiers on their roll, yes.
We spend a design and a revision on our plants.
We got the ability to make a modest shubbery over the course of 24 hours.
Moskurg spends a design and a revision, they get Magic Blackhawk Helicopters.
The results of designs are simply not in proportion.
Quote
And what are you talking about rolling a -3? Your effectiveness was rolled with no penalties, a -2 for expense for being made out of your most expensive tech, and a -1 for bugs for being larger than anything you've ever made.
[6+1-1, 5+1-3, 4+2-3]
Those are -3's.
Massive penalties for minor improvements to existing technology.
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It's the most long-range, powerful, lethal cannon in the world that Moskurg can't even hope to compare with without redesigning their ballista, it can fire 4 times a minute, is lacking ammo types and spotters
Yes, but we already had an awesome cannons before that. There is clear progression there. Compared to the previous cannon, the new one is no enormous improvement.
The old cannons had the same fire rate, same destructive power, and they did not have all the issues the new cannons have.
Moskurg had nothing that flies. Nothing at all. And now they get everything.
Quote
and you're upset that Moskurg made flying carpets? You've already got arrows that by default explode when they're close to an enemy mage. You are overstating the disparity between you guys, all because you were caught off-guard by their new invention.
I'm upset because when we try something new, we get hit by massive penalties. -3 penalties are not unusual.
Hell, when we tried to simply turn our fireball into a wall of fire, we got hit with penalties.
Meanwhile, Moskurg bullshits you in giving them levitation and you give them bonuses for the attempt.
Think about it, Moskurg has no spells that should give them bonuses to give them flight. Wind is air related, but it's not levitation and it is not flight, which is what their carpets clearly are. All their wind spells do is let them move air around, nothing more. If it where a wind powered carpet, it would need huge sails to catch the wind (obviously), or some other obvious wind related effect.
But they get a small, compact, silent carpet.
Technologically, Moskurg's flight spell is a big an improvement, if not bigger, as the steam engine, and should be treated exactly the same. Several designs, several revisions, before it ever becomes truly effective.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 11, 2017, 03:42:16 pm
I understand your frustration, but I will not be changing the results of this past turn.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 11, 2017, 04:21:39 pm
Quote
develop our own air force, lest we lag behind in this ever-changing war
I'm not filling it in, because if we did we'd get slapped with a -3 penalty for chosing the wrong answer.
Post by: Roboson on May 11, 2017, 04:25:12 pm
I hate to say it, but we need something new. We need something to get us out of this hole we're in. No more science, no more more technology, no more cannons, no more engines. Just magic.
What we need now, in my opinion, is directional antimagic. An anti-divination jammer would do the trick.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 11, 2017, 04:34:01 pm
But anyway, all Moskurgian forces rely on their Wind Magic. Air , Navy, Archers, Ground forces Let's kill that.
Reapers Breeze
An anti magic Crystal of significant size, engraved with gold cooling etchings. This enormous crystal is finely attuned to Wind spells, and will sap their strength over an entire battlefield. In effect, it brings up the expense rating of all wind spells by at least 1 tier.
Now, you may say, isn't that overpowered. Nay, I answer, it's the Moskurgians own fault for focusing all their magic on one type of spell.
Post by: Andres on May 11, 2017, 04:35:09 pm
I will iterate again. With our current frost towers, we negated the heat penalty our troops were operating under, we gave Moskurg a severe penalty in the Plains, and we eradicated them in the Mountains. Their ballistas, their horses, their flying carpets...all worthless in the face of our frost towers.
By doubling the intensity of our frost towers, we increase the severity of the effects up one stage. That means:
Jungle: Moskurgs get a severe penalty
Plains: Moskurgs are ERADICATED
Mountains: Moskurgs stay ERADICATED
Desert: Our troops no longer have a penalty
By doubling the range, we no longer have to take them inside a region for the effects to take place. They become offensive tools as well as defensive. They will not only be impermeable defences, but unstoppable attacks.
Quote
1 - Improved Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450795#msg7450795): Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 11, 2017, 04:37:13 pm
Quote
2 - Improved Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450795#msg7450795): Andres, 10ebbor10
Post by: RAM on May 11, 2017, 04:46:22 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 11, 2017, 04:49:31 pm
Post by: andrea on May 11, 2017, 04:50:08 pm
But how many designs will it take to make an hot air balloon that can carry anything useful (like an apprentice and an archer)?
The commander at sea keeps asking for a new bigger boat... but considering how the expense penalty was last time for this, I don't see it happening at less than national effort without at the very least 2 designs and 2 revisions.
so, eh, whatever.
freeze the world, let everyone die. If somebody survives, it will probably be us.
Quote
3 - Improved Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450795#msg7450795): Andres, 10ebbor10, Andrea
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 11, 2017, 04:54:51 pm
Quote
But how many designs will it take to make an hot air balloon that can carry anything useful (like an apprentice and an archer)?
Balloon + Wind spell = No more balloon.
Post by: Roboson on May 11, 2017, 04:57:55 pm
Post by: Light forger on May 11, 2017, 04:58:46 pm
A pint size cannon currently being called a micro-cannon by the famously bland nature of Arstotzka wordsmiths. The cannon is roughly 4 feet long and comes with a wooden stick to stab into the ground to rest it on when firing. The weapons uses new rounds just thick enough to mount a small quartz crystal which is the firing means of the cannon. The quartz crystal are designed to hold a decent amount of magic and when shattered release it in a powerful but, short lived jet of fire to propel the round. In order to shatter it the cannon is equipped spring powered 'striker' connected to a bar trigger on the stock of the cannon. After ramming the crystal down the front of the cannon the user just needs to pull back a small lever and active the trigger to fire the weapon. It's operated by a two man crew one carrying the weapon and the other handling the ammo and reloading. Uniquely the quartz crystal don't need a mage to look after them after creation letting our non-magical soldiers use the weapon. Further more the weapons are made using our crystal boring technique to increase the number made and overall quality.
I think it's time to bring the venerable sport of Moskurg-skeet shooting to the masses and get our first musket. Also magic storage which also very important and, if we don't fail horribly we can make faux HE rounds for our cannons.
Post by: andrea on May 11, 2017, 04:59:47 pm
But you don't need to convince me, I am not voting for such a thing.
A giant sequoia would work well for spotting as well and more resistant to winds... but our plant magic seems to suffer extremely slow improvements as well.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 11, 2017, 05:01:09 pm
There's no way they can use strong wind magic on top of those things. They'd blow themselves out of the air and all over the place.
They already do it to stop arrows, which are much harder to blow away than insects.
Quote
I think it's time to bring the venerable sport of Moskurg-skeet shooting to the masses and get our first musket. Also magic storage which also very important and, if we don't fail horribly we can make faux HE rounds for our cannons.
The GM said that stored spells must be a separate design.
Post by: helmacon on May 11, 2017, 05:02:10 pm
If the carpet bombers (pun intended) are not using anti-magic, why aren't we using spells like "summon swarm" or "Webs" on them?
Alright, I think these frost towers have a lot of potential, but revising them to have a broader effect is the wrong way to go about it. For one, I think we would run into the problem of diminishing returns, but it would also be easy for them to counter if it became a problem for them. I think we ought to revise the frost towers to be smaller, and more concentrated.
Frost Thrower Heavy weapon emplacement
Using the basic principles developed with the frost tower and steam engines, The frost thrower projects a directed cone of extremely cold material over a short range.
The basic apparatus is simple. A large pressurized tank of water is connected to two flexible hoses. In front of the tank sits a chair on a 180 degree swivel. The two hoses are attached to an armored frame around the chair, ending on a piece of metal jutting straight out at an angle. The operator can target the apparatus using the swivel, and controls a valve to fire a pressurized stream of water. At this point, the device is essentially an armored water cannon.
The inside of the tank is inscribed with runes to keep the water at just above freezing temperatures. A metal attachment on the end of the hoses is inscribed with runes to amplify a freezing spell, allowing it to act fast enough to flash freeze the water as it is projected out from the hoses. This drops the temperature of the material to well below 0. On impact it can kill organic targets. It easily bypasses non-insulated armor, and renders normally resilient materials brittle and vulnerable. We already understand cold magic from the frost towers, pressurization from the steam engines, and runic inscription from our cannons.
No matter what point the miniaturization gets it too, this will still be useful.
If it stays tower sized, it can be used to freeze specific skirmish sites prior to an assault. At the size of artillery/cannon it can be used to wipe out an advancing squad or cavalry charge at short to mid range, or to freeze thier carpet bombers mid air. It could also be mounted on ships to provide a versatile armament that could be fired on both aerial targets, or other ships.
At an even smaller size, we could place the tanks on the backs of our apprentices and use the frost thrower to clear out trenches or fortified positions.
Post by: Roboson on May 11, 2017, 05:04:10 pm
There's no way they can use strong wind magic on top of those things. They'd blow themselves out of the air and all over the place.
They already do it to stop arrows, which are much harder to blow away than insects.
On top of a magic levitating carpet? Without losing stability? Well that sucks...
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 11, 2017, 05:05:45 pm
Quote
why aren't we using spells like "summon swarm" or "Webs" on them?
They have a simple Wind spell which allows them to blow away insects. Webs can only be cast by very experienced mages.
On top of a magic levitating carpet? Without losing stability? Well that sucks...
Yup, Moskurg is silly.
Post by: Light forger on May 11, 2017, 05:08:14 pm
The GM said that stored spells must be a separate design.
Anddd what else are we making? Possibly the spring striker? Otherwise it's just a smaller cannon which thanks to how our boring tech works should be easier to make then our current cannons.
Post by: helmacon on May 11, 2017, 05:12:29 pm
Post by: andrea on May 11, 2017, 05:25:05 pm
Quote
2 - Improved Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450795#msg7450795): Andres, 10ebbor10
removing my vote, as I am unsure how to go forward.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 11, 2017, 05:26:41 pm
Design: AS-HC3 "Unending"
This design is simple. The AS-HA1 and AS-HC2 are limited in their fire rates. Ammunition can only be loaded so fast - every time one of these weapons is fired, the crew has to manually load in new shells from the front, putting them in danger of enemy ranged fire as well as greatly increasing the load times. In order to load a gun, a shell must be brought to the front and pushed all the way to the back with rifling. So we aimed to fix this.
The AS-HC3 Unending has a new "breech-loading" mechanism - shells can be loaded in via what essentially amounts to an openable hatch in the back. Once the gun is fired, the soldier in charge of reloading merely opens the hatch and easily inserts a shell before resuming fire. This increases the rate of fire by an insane degree.
Further compounding this is a somewhat minor reduction in barrel and shell size. The accuracy (and range) is carefully maintained, but the smaller shell size also provides an advantage in reloading - one person can more quickly load smaller shells and smaller shells can be transported in greater bulk. The reductions in barrel size could also theoretically lead to a cheaper overall cannon, but this is low priority to the rest of the design - the aimed Expense target is "Expensive", which shouldn't be an issue considering the expense of the AS-HC1-E. If all else succeeds, then expense can be worked on.
The AS-HC3 is also placed on what we call a "swivel" mount. With the use of careful mathemagics in mundane areas, we found a way to produce joints allowing for the AS-HC3 to have much greater maximum angles of rotation both horizontally and vertically.
The result is a much faster-firing cannon at the expense of shell size, that also has a much greater freedom of movement. This way our AS-HC3 operators can easily target flying targets, and we've found it works great for close-quarters combat both at sea and land.
The AS-HC3 is designed to completely replace the AS-HC1-E in the field.
BENEFITS:
- +++Reloading Time
- ++Firing Angles
- +Cheap? (Extremely low priority)
TL;DR:
We radically improve the firing rates of the HC1-E and put it on a swivel mount so it has much greater mobility in terms of firing angles. Cheapness is also a low priority aspect of this design. The idea for using it here is as a very primitive AA cannon and a general improvement against the HC1-E.
Design/Revision: Flak Shells. AS-SO1-AA "Turbulence"
The new flying carpets are worrying.
But we can easily make them non-worrying.
Introducing the new AS-SO1-AA Turbulence! The shell is technically based off of the SO1-AM Equalizer and Anti-magic bomb designs. In a way. at the very tip of the shell is an anti-magic bomb crystal. This crystal isn't needed for its effects, so the tiny amount
needed is extremely easy to produce and provide for the shells. When the shell hits a magic field such as the one we'd assume that they would use in their cowardly flying carpets, the anti-magic bomb crystal will "explode". This by itself won't do much, but the
crystal is placed in such a way that when it explodes, the rest of the shell follows. The shell will violently blow apart in mid-air. It doesn't have any actual explosive material in it, but the ripping apart of the shell will create a small area of effect for the bomb.
In fact, this area of effect is small enough that it'd likely be worse than the impact area of a regular shell, but in the air it's vital as regular shells require direct hits in order to do any damage, but Turbulence shells can be much more off-course and still actually
hit their target.
TL;DR: Revise a variant of bomb to blow apart (relatively non-explosively) in magic fields. Primitive flak shell.
EDIT: To be even more clear, this is basically an anti-magic shell light. The anti-magic portion is only used as a trigger for the shell to rip apart. It has a small radius of effect but it should make our artillery much better against flying carpets. Probably worse than the HC3 design, though. Unless it's used as a revision in conjunction with the HC3.
More to come later.
Post by: Roboson on May 11, 2017, 05:31:38 pm
Lazarus Initiative
Given the sorry state of affairs, Arstotzka initiated its final steps towards ending this war. Only out of desperation could these methods be justified.
Given the enemies incredible advances in
Wights, undead creatures which fill ancient lore of our nation. Using our knowledge of life magic (plants, wasps, and their related spell components), we looked for ways to harden our soldiers against death.
Design proposition:
Using our knowledge of life magic that we gained during our study of plant growth, we discover a way to prevent death from taking hold of our soldiers. We overcharge the corpses of our fallen with a modified life spell, returning them to our ranks and forever preventing them from passing into the next life. This changes their bodies and souls so that they will continue fighting the Moskurgs long after any mortal man would have died. These angry powerful creatures cannot be stopped, only broken down into smaller and smaller pieces. They never stop fighting to destroy the Moskurgs.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 11, 2017, 05:40:33 pm
They're at complete mercy to their Wind magic. And there's not really anything we can ever do to fix this.
Design:AS-AMD1 "Obelisk"
Arstotzkan Anti-Magic Device 1 "Obelisk"
Using the lessons learned from the anti-magic charm and the Equalizer anti-magic shell, we've developed something new: The Obelisk.
The obelisk is fitting in its name. It's not particularly tall - roughly 8 feet. It is transported from site to site and is not constructed on site. The obelisk is, of course, an anti-magic device but with two improvements:
1.) Expense. The Obelisk utilizes cheaper materials to provide the anti-magic effect, but thanks to mathemagics, the materials are optimized to perform just as well as anti-magic charms.
2.) Selectiveness. The field of Mathemagics has revealed that we can fine-tune our anti-magic charms even more. Different types of magics ultimately appear different at a more detailed level than that used by our anti-magic charms. The Obelisk can be made to be more selective and block out certain types of magic - namely those types (WIND) used by (WIND) Moskurg (WIND).
The Obelisk has a decent but not extremely impressive range. The range is designed so in conjunction with expense, Obelisks can be easily spread across our camps and fortifications to provide semi-permanent anti-magic protection. The range should be enough to reach the typical distance flown by Moskurg carpets.
TL;DR: A small transportable structure that selectively blocks Moskurg anti-magic.
Feel free to vote on any of the designs I'm posting, by the way. If I'm posting them I'm fine going along with them if others support them. Next one to post is probably updated Crystalworks or Magegems.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 11, 2017, 05:55:21 pm
Design: Magegems
We've begun to explore the new areas of magic without the presence of our mages. Magegems are gems (or crystals) based on the anti-magic charm. But where the anti-magic charm actively absorbed ambient energy, a magegem does nothing of the sort. Energy can be actively input into the gem by a mage of any skill level, then the gem can be safely handled by anyone; mundane or not.
A magegem does nothing on its own other than storing energy. But when inserted into a compatible device, circuits on the device can actively draw energy from the magegem, allowing for items with much more drastic effects. Without a magegem, circuits are limited to sustaining low-power existing spells. But with magegems, circuits can actually cast spells and enact significant changes to the surrounding reality. HA1 and HCx series weapons will be able to fire without a mage casting the required spells. Steam engines will be able to start, stop, and last longer without a magician. And more!
Converting our current designs to work with magegems is a simple task. Most modern designs utilize circuits, which means all that has to be done is to configure the circuits to draw power from the magegem instead of a mage. Non-circuit based devices can also be converted fairly easily, as the lack of a circuit suggests making one wouldn't be a complicated task for that particular device. For example, the HA1 already utilizes circuits, so a slot can be very easily added to it and the circuits configured to draw energy from an input magegem.
Magegems at the moment are planned to be only distributed in bulk to sites making use of them, like artillery. But if our soldiers ever require them, they can be issued with a handful of magegems to use on the field to power equipment. Magegems are designed to be reusable - soldiers are instructed to safely store depleted magegems until an apprentice is available to recharge them. But even if there are no apprentices available, the energy stored in magegems should last for long enough. Artillery configured to use magegems, for example, may ultimately require apprentices to charge the magegems, but as each artillery piece won't require the constant attention of apprentices, a single apprentice can be assigned to many different artillery pieces with the simple task of recharging depleted magegems.
As a part of this design, HA1 Onslaughts and HC1-E's have been tweaked to accept magegems. Considerations were made to equip steam engines and other devices with compatibility for magegems, but that was deemed out of scope for now. Future iterations of those devices can be made compatible and the ease of converting likely means adding magegem compatibility can be done as part of a larger revision.
TL;DR: Magic storage. Potentially not immediately useful but has extreme number of possibilities. Mundane artillery, engines, etc. freeing our mages, Crystalworks, Magic Rifles, Grenades (Revision - add a priming mechanism to make them explode), and more.
Design: Crystalworks
Crystal is the future. Sure, it may last 24 hours and disappears when the enemy gets nearby, but it's still the future, and the Crystalworks shall make that a reality.
The crystalworks is, essentially, a building placed by the river (which I assume exists). This river powers steam engines that power the mundane portions of the factory.
The Crystalworks is simple: Instead of wasting wizards to make exact shapes of crystal, we let machinery do it for us. Crystal is constantly being summoned by circuits, yet instead of a single circuit making perfect ready-made crystal shapes, the work is divided into multiple circuits across multiple "conveyors" powered by steam engines. These circuits progressively work on the crystal - the crystal starts as raw "blobs" but its hardness, weight, shape, and more is refined and manipulated as the crystal moves throughout the Crystalworks. Eventually the finished product is deposited in large storage containers that are regularly emptied to be brought to the field.
The result is much cheaper crystal items and products.
We've found that crystals are, in a way, "bound" to the summoning wizard. Being dispelled is likely breaking the connection to the wizard. So what if we made the crystals connected to themselves? Then the crystal is a solid object, now completely free of magic and immune to dispelling. The nature of the circuits used in the Crystalworks works great for this - the circuits can easily make "isolated" Crystal because the circuits are "isolated" themselves. No wizard is making this crystal.
The result is permanent crystals no longer tied to magic and therefore no longer dispelable.
As a very minor feature in addition to the selling points of the Crystalworks, it's created in a very modular configuration. It has multiple crystal lines and more can be added easily. These lines can be configured without difficulty to produce different products as we come up with new crystal-based designs.
Finally, powering these circuits is not an easy task. The steam engines may power the mundane aspects such as these conveyors, but a way to power the circuits constantly summoning and manipulating crystal was the hardest aspect of the Spellworks. The result is a series of gems placed in a central part of the Crystalworks that store magical energy. These gems are based heavily on our anti-magic charms, but don't include the "absorb magic" part. They simple store magic. Apprentices can easily input magic into them and then very simple circuits can deliver this magical energy to the rest of the factory. These gems do need to be routinely charged by apprentices, but a mere handful of apprentices can work together to keep the factory powered constantly thanks to the fact that it doesn't need to be constantly charged.
The gems are large, heavy, and expensive. To use them anywhere else would likely require serious design considerations.
The main goal here is to just make crystal better and lay the groundwork to use it (and metal I guess) in our magitech designs. We can still use our metal bonus - things don't have to be 100% crystal or 100% metal.
Crystalworks Design Principles (In order of importance)
1.) Magic batteries
2.) Anchored (permanent+dispel-immune) Crystals.
3.) Cheap crystal anything in the future
Crystalworks Benefits
1.) Make existing crystal weapons usable again
2.) Make current + future crystal designs cheaper.
3.) Helps Crystalclad, crystal armor, more crystal weapons, etc.
4.) Provides infrastructure for complicated designs. (Things like the HA1 can be made to use crystal ammunition. It'd be lighter, stronger, and cheaper to make+treansport. Crystal can be worked into a lot of designs to let the Crystalworks "cover" them in terms of manufacturing. Just be sure to mention it in their designs)
Crystalworks was just copy+pasted from an earlier Future Design post of mine. For maximum safeness (especially consider all the roll penalties we've been getting lately) we can do it after magegems. But I believe it's still a very viable option to develop primitive magegems here then make actual Magegems in a revision.
But again, now is the time to develop infrastructure. We're at a point in defense where Moskurg may not be able to immediately push out again, and there's nothing we immediately lose if we lose ground anywhere (other than Mountains which we've got pretty much covered still). We can use this time to develop infrastructure critical for other things, like the Crystalworks. Want Crystalclad or functioning crystal again? Crystal caltrops? Crystal weapons? Choose the crystalworks!
If anyone thinks the Crystalworks is too ambitious, let me know and I can trim it down.
Post by: andrea on May 11, 2017, 05:56:24 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 11, 2017, 05:57:44 pm
Post by: Roboson on May 11, 2017, 06:09:21 pm
Post by: Light forger on May 11, 2017, 06:23:17 pm
Magegems: Useful and likely to work at the cost of not being useful right away.
Crystalworks: Too much stuff in one design. We have stored magic plus, permanent crystals and, a magic factory. It's not going to fly. In a different note I doubtful about spending a whole design on things secondary to battle.
Obelisk: Probably a bit too complex since we are trying to get both a much larger anti-magic field and find some way to focus our anti-magic to effect some things. Also a bit too focused on countering their stuff rather then trying them to counter our stuff.
Unending: I don't think their flying tech warrants a full on AAA tech. Also more rate of fire won't be useful until we have the supply chain to feed it.
AS-SO1: An ok subbranch of our anti-magic shells but, I still think it's too focus on countering their new stiff without keep an eye on what they are making right now.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 11, 2017, 06:26:43 pm
Flares: A modification of our fireball spell turns the power down to not much, but drastically increases the range and brightness, and lets more skilled mages choose the color of the flare. Can be used for blinding Moskurgian carpet mages(HA!), setting off incoming firebombs earlier, marking entrenched positions for bombardment outside normal sight range, communications, and confusing alm-you-tricka.
Hopefully easy to do. Probably effective if we succeed.
Post by: Light forger on May 11, 2017, 06:27:25 pm
Can't we just do Flares?
Flares: A modification of our fireball spell turns the power down to not much, but drastically increases the range and brightness, and lets more skilled mages choose the color of the flare. Can be used for blinding Moskurgian carpet mages(HA!), setting off incoming firebombs earlier, marking entrenched positions for bombardment outside normal sight range, communications, and confusing alm-you-tricka.
Hopefully easy to do. Probably effective if we succeed.
I think that's best saved for a revision.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 11, 2017, 06:32:45 pm
Potentially doable in a revision, sure, but I'd rather have the certainty a design provides.
Also, another nice idea might be enchanted longbows.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 11, 2017, 06:42:24 pm
Developing a comm's network, prepackaging them so even mundane troops can use them would be design-worthy.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 11, 2017, 06:44:41 pm
It's weird seeing you guys propose something that wouldn't intrinsically require a dozen negative modifiers.Posted by Evicted right after I posted this:
Quote from: Chiefwaffles
Future Revision: FlareEDIT: Oh, Evicted ninja'd me anyways. Thanks for clarifying still, Evicted.
One night, when a bored mage was staring at the theatre from the top of a Frost Tower, he noticed the bright fires all over the theatre located where the fighting was thanks to the fire bombs brilliant Arstotzkan fireballs.
So, he thought - why not use that?
The idea is simple: Use our fireballs for communication. The Streamlined Fireball is taken as the base, then instead of destructive power, our Mathemagicians tweak the Fireball spell to create massive amounts of light and to allow casting mages to choose the color. Now the Streamlined Fireball can be shot upwards into the sky, where it'll provide illumination on the ground below and signal other soldiers in the area. Certain colors can also be interpreted to mean different things - for example, red could be used to signal for artillery strikes, blue could be used to signal enemy troop locations, and the illumination provided by the flare will light up the ground below at night, making it easier for our men in skirmishes. Some have even theorized that strings of different colors could be used to send "encoded" messages across troops.
The extremely decrease destructive power of the Flare means it simply burns out before it can fall back to the ground.
How?
1.) Increase the brightness of the Streamlined Fireball at the expense of power. (While the flare is in a way a new spell, it's such a simple tweak (power -> brightness) that it should definitely be able to be done in a revision. )
2.) Add colors
Why?
1.) Artillery spotting. Flares can be used to signal for HA1 strikes at that destination.
2.) General battlefield communication - not extremely effective and not extremely secure, but it allows for basic communications.
3.) Skirmishing. We can create artificial light benefitting us during the night.
And on that note, if someone introduces a plausible actual communications system (allowing mundane troops to use it as well as magical) to use in this design phase, I may be really close to supporting it. But I really like flares since they also help in Skirmish and darkness was an explicit problem this combat phase.
@Light Forger:
All the stuff I posted is currently relevant. My descriptions are there for fluff - I categorize the benefits inside the fluff and you can note the summaries/TL;DR's I give at the end of each design.
Magegems: Yup, but probably worth it. Namely to provide a reasonable stepping stone to Crystalworks.
Crystalworks: Yeah, overambition here is a risk but it'd be great to get it out of the way. And note how I already pointed out why now is the time for things which aren't useful immediately. We're at a point where we won't lose anything if we don't immediately produce a battle-worthy design. Now's our chance to do some much needed improvements to infrastructure and preparations.
Obelisk: That's the point of it being a design, but it is definitely fair to be concerned by overextension, but keep in mind it is a design and we do need to improve our anti-magic.
Unending: It's not an AA gun. It's an overall improvement to the HC1-E specializing it versus our HA1. It would be, without a doubt, a straight-up upgrade obsoleting our HC1-E's. I want a smaller gun to put on ships, to use in closer-range combat, etc.; the fire rate is the main improvement here because it also helps in terms of anti-air. It's an upgrade to the HC1-E first, and an AA gun third. It's more of a "upgraded cannon that also happens to be much more useful against air units". Besides, do you really think Moskurg is just going to stop with their current air units? They are without a doubt going to expand in that area and we need to be ready.
AS-SO1: See above. And when their new stuff is this powerful, focusing on countering it isn't the worst idea.
EDIT: Speaking of even more ideas, I still think guided fireballs/shells is a good idea. Roboson posted something for guided shells earlier and it could be super useful. Even though it won't actually be guided, things like a guided shell would be significantly more useful against flying carpets as well as just about anything else. Not going to post a proposal for that, though.
Post by: RAM on May 11, 2017, 06:58:11 pm
A farm for frost eagles to be summoned, bred, trained, and sent to the front.
Learning from our wasps, we knew that to defeat a wind spell would require something more hefty. Learning from our crystal weapons, we knew that we would require something more mundane. But we also learned many positive things as well. We knew that combining life with the elements could be effective. We knew that magical materials could exceed mundane, and we knew that life could be brought forth from nothing.
To address the antimagic issue, we needed to conjure items that would no longer Be promptly dispelled. We addressed this with new Sacrifice Circuits(S.C.) that can drain a quantity of material and metamaterial into the circuit to feed a spell that promptly uses the sudden absence of material to summon a stable entity. In this case, a quantity of meat for living tissue and cheap gemstones for crystal materials, along with a frost-imbued and crystal-imbued magical artefacts(Strips of metal with circuits of inconsequential versions of these spell schools with which we are very familiar) for the relevant magical essences, a life(typically vermin, either a rodent from a store-house or a pest captured from the battle-field) to grant vitality, and a very large quantity of invoked magic, to make up the necessary force of the effects involved.
To address the wind issue, we sought out a high-altitude creature of extreme proportions. We found a vulture that flew so high that they normally couldn't be seen. It was a metre long with a wingspan of two and a half metres. We needed more, we doubled its size in every dimension, and then added 50% to its wingspan. We then looked to the mystical options. We added to the new creature naturally-growing crystal veins along its bones, talons, beak, and the trunks of their feathers. Then funneled cold magic to have them absorb cold into their crstalline growths, keeping the bird warm and causing an explosion of cold when a vulture dies and a small burst of cold if its crystals break. Finally, we used trial and error with the early prototypes to make them a more "powerful" and "healthy" and "intelligent" animal by magical mandate(magicdate? manical? umm, mangical? er... no...), to allow them to function with these alterations and be capable combatants.
Training them seemed to be a simple matter of launching Kegger carpets and uniforms in the general direction of their nests while Arstotzkans attack the crude catapults to win their favour. Additionally, being newly created they have little choice but to accept their summoners as family. Being summoned as adults has very much helped to accelerate the breeding program...
Summon Giant Fire-wasps.
Fire wasps, five-metres long, thick carapace, doesn't care about insect-breathing-mechanics or flight capability because "a wizard did it"...
Tall Frost towers
We use our abundant metal supplies to strengthen the frost towers, allowing them to be taller, thinner, larger, and have a concave shape without requiring more material or being weaker. They provide spotting for our artillery and have been modified to revert back to some of the fire-ball roots from which they emerged, being able to propel the same chilling effect as ball spells, essentially moving their point-of-origin forwards, or right into the middle of an already-freezing aerial kegger group. Given the already massive scale of the Forever Frost towers, this easily exceeds our fireballs in range just through brute-force.
Pillar of unmagic
Post by: helmacon on May 11, 2017, 07:14:16 pm
Falconry was around as early as 680 B.C., so it probably already exists within civilian use. All we have to do is strap some magic armament to them, and sick them on enemy soldiers instead of rabbits.
Post by: RAM on May 11, 2017, 07:18:46 pm
We were playing around with modified wasps eons ago, it was, like, the second action or something. I believe that "old magic" becomes easier to modify, so I am hoping that my insane wish-list is actually plausible.
But that is why I made the giant wasp thing too. Because some people hate everything that is good and right in the world.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 11, 2017, 07:21:24 pm
Design: Giant Falcon
It's simple. We've used life magic to make plants, and animals before. Why not actually beginning to utilize this experience?
So we did. The Giant Falcon is accurate to its name. It's a greatly enlarged falcon. To avoid the expenses, trouble, and magic vulnerability associated with creating huge creatures from scratch, we merely find falcons and greatly enlarge their size via our life magic, avoiding having to waste designing and effort on making them from scratch.
The Giant Falcon is, in the enlargement process, given basic imprints of Arstotzkan troops as friendly and Moskurgian designs (FLYING CARPETS; SIEGE ENGINES) as prey. They are given basic training amounting to whistling and similar sounds from their handlers for commands such as "come" and "go".
A small anti-magic charm is affixed to the Giant Falcon. The charm is smaller than that given to our ground troops, as it only needs to protect the creature itself from effects such as wind or any other dirty Moskurg spells. If it turns out that our supply of these charms is smaller than that of the Giant Falcons, then the charms will only be given to some falcons instead of limiting the falcon production.
In addition to its combat roles, the Giant Falcon is able to perform basic functions such as being secondary sentries (A handler can order their falcon up into the air, and if it attacks anything, then the handler knows something's there) and as messengers. Parchment can be attached by string to some part of the Giant Falcon, and their handler can attempt to order the Falcon to go to one of our camps or fortifications. Of course, these supplementary roles aren't the purpose of the Giant Falcon and are thus somewhat unreliable at the moment.
We hope to one day fit riders upon these beasts.
TL;DR: Our own air units that should be accessible to make.
Quote
2 - Improved Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450795#msg7450795): Andres, 10ebbor10
1 - Giant Falcons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7451013#msg7451013): Chiefwaffles
Post by: Andres on May 11, 2017, 07:24:36 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
((I'm worried that this is going to be like the MC16 - a really good SMG design that was limited in its usefulness by being Expensive. All it would've taken was a single Revision to give us a significant advantage but it was never taken because people were convinced that it wouldn't make a difference if it was cheap. The Revision finally got through and its effectiveness vindicated me, but by that point several years had gone by and its impact was not as great as it could've been.))
EDIT:
Design: Giant FalconThis is bigger and more complex than anything we had done with that school of magic and will not have nearly as much effect as better frost towers would.
Post by: helmacon on May 11, 2017, 07:27:14 pm
As for the great falcon design, strap some anti magic crystals to them so they have a bit of defence, and you have my vote.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 11, 2017, 07:29:09 pm
@Helmacon: Sure, I'll add that in. It shouldn't be a problem as long as we don't try to put any mage riders on it. And we can always just remove the antimagic stuff if we do that later.
Post by: helmacon on May 11, 2017, 07:36:00 pm
Quote
2 - Improved Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450795#msg7450795): Andres, 10ebbor10[/quote]
2 - Giant Falcons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7451013#msg7451013): Chiefwaffles, Helmacon
Yea, once we have people on there the defence is more just being able to consider a situation tactically instead of flying right at a mage and being surprised when they throw a fireball at you. Plus, ya know, our own magic.
Oh! what if we strap the anti-magic crystals to thier talons, so when they attack anything magical they literally rip the magic part of it to shreds. and then they can wear a anti-magic charm as general defence.
Post by: Andres on May 11, 2017, 07:36:53 pm
Yea, my point was more like chief waffles was saying, It's a decent idea, but there is a much better way to go about it.He said it was a bad idea and gave objectively bad reasons as to why it was a bad idea. "They are currently not 100% effective in this specific theatre of war, therefore improving them will not make them 100% effective." It was utterly illogical. He was also not saying there was a better way to go about it, he just started arguing for infrastructure.
I have also read your argument, that they'll face diminishing returns, that it'll be easy to counter, and we should make them smaller.
Your fear of diminishing returns is entirely unfounded.
They cannot counter it without going within its effects or outright overpowering the magic, which considering its strength will not happen.
Reducing the range but increasing the intensity while making the tower smaller is a self-defeating idea. A smaller tower results in a smaller effect, not a more intense effect. A more intense effect is created either by a bigger tower or a better tower. All your idea will do is decrease the range of our towers - the small size and increased intensity cancelling each other out.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Andres on May 11, 2017, 07:42:21 pm
@Andres: Now that's just unnecessary pessimism. We enlarge falcons (not even making any new creatures) and give them basic training. The effects are effectiveness in pretty much every stage (picking off artillery, general combat in melee [though this is least useful stage], picking off enemies in Routing, and picking off enemies in Skirmish) as well as a direct counter to flying carpets. We can develop on it to great effects in the future, too.They'd be useful, sure, but that invalidates nothing of what I said. We have experience in creating plants and small bugs, not animals large enough to fly while mounted. You also want them tame enough to be ridden and well trained enough to be useful. It also does not consider that they can be shot out of the sky with their bows or their ballistas.
Also, despite their usefulness, they are incapable of wiping out every single enemy in an entire region, while our frost towers demonstrably were. Your falcons may be a counter to flying carpets (as well as useful in several other areas), but frost towers are counters to everything.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Light forger on May 11, 2017, 07:42:53 pm
Post by: Andres on May 11, 2017, 07:51:36 pm
My main point against doubling down on the frost towers is we are nearing the point where we will start to have to use revisions/designs to protect ourselves against them.This isn't true. We only need the frost to get to the point where they kill all Moskurgs but spare Arstotzkans, and we succeeded. Just look at how we captured the Mountains. Doubling down on the frost towers would require that we develop countermeasures, but that's only if we do such an imbecilic thing as to build the maximum amount of frost towers instead of the optimum amount.
In the Mountains, for example, if we double the intensity of the frost towers, we'll simply halve the number of frost towers we build in the Mountains. The sweet spot is maintained and we get surplus towers.
Finally, even though it is 100% unnecessary for the reasons I mentioned above, we can just use previous versions of frost towers in already cold areas such as the Mountains.
Also they already have their foot in the door at making counters to our frost magics.It's a crappy foot in the door, not something they evidently care that much about, and we can beat them with our design even if they do put some more effort into countering it. We would have an advantage in this hypothetical arms race.
Even then, the more of their mages are focused on doing anything about our towers, the less there will be available for bombing us or hitting us with their ballistas.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: helmacon on May 11, 2017, 07:52:36 pm
Post by: Andres on May 11, 2017, 08:00:04 pm
Let's think for a second about how the enemy might counter our frost towers. They now have a rudimentary air force. A few revisions into fighter and bomber variants and they now have the ability to destroy targets behind our front lines. Our towers are too expensive to lose even a few. Making them bigger and stronger will only make them more expensive.Have you not been reading what I have already written multiple times? Our frost towers will kill the mages long before they even reach the towers because of the cold. Their range is too great for that already, all that is missing is the intensity, and giving them more range would be overkill.
Furthermore, a few more designs and revisions later means we ourselves will also have a few more designs and revisions, so it's not like they'll be defenceless. We'll have developed something by the time their bombers become threats to the towers.
I should mention that there is another reason for us to do frost towers: the revision credit. If we do the frost towers, we can send the Mountains into such depths of cold that even Arstotzkans wouldn't survive, much less Moskurgs. With such a degree of cold, it would be unnecessary to station any troops there whatsoever. With so many troops freed up, we'll be all but assured to get the revision credit.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: helmacon on May 11, 2017, 08:06:52 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 11, 2017, 08:32:55 pm
Flare Wand: Breaking the bottom part of this colored wand will cause a small fireball, about the same as our Streamlined Fireball before we turned it into a Greater Fireball using a wand, to shoot out of the top. This fireball has greatly increased range and luminosity, but is basically useless for actually hurting somebody it hits. Mild burning at most. Easily survivable. Each wand has a different color, and when broken, will shoot a fireball of several colors.
These wands have several applications.
One: they are bright enough that a Moskurgian carpet flyer... well, read this incident report.
Spoiler: Incident Report 933-Alpha-3: (click to show/hide)
Two: by means of a communications system one of our officers have designed, they can be used to communicate rapidly.
Spoiler: Some Details (click to show/hide)
A third use: firing straight up when a camp is under attack will likely lead to a quick awakening of our troops, though there are likely better ways to protect our camps.
Since voting one's own proposal is bad etiquette, however, I will vote Giant Falcons, because we need a counter to their carpets, sentries for our camps, and messengers, and falcons can provide all three.
Quote
2 - Improved Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450795#msg7450795): Andres, 10ebbor10
4 - Giant Falcons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7451013#msg7451013): Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, FallacyofUrist, Roboson
0 - Flare Wands:
Post by: Roboson on May 11, 2017, 08:37:18 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 11, 2017, 08:45:53 pm
Flare Wand is okay. I don't really understand why it's worth using a design action on Flare Wand over a revision on Flare, which is definitely a very realistic action. I suppose that Flare Wand may be usable by non-magic troops? But even then, our apprentices are very widespread and mages are already assigned at a rate of something similar to "one per squad", right?
EDIT: Bonus aspect of Giant Falcon: Moskurg carpets are very clearly equipped for bombardment purposes. Taking them on directly via air would give us a huge advantage (at first). Not a selling point or anything, but something nice to consider.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 11, 2017, 08:47:12 pm
Homing Fireballs: The mage who casts this remains in control of the elemental magic even at a distance, allowing them to direct the fireball's motion through the air. This allows standard, big explodey fireballs which can move directly to a moving target then detonate on command. The sustained nature of this spell allows it greater range.
This has two new things, elemental control at a range and sustaining the fireballs at a range, but should be enough to completely devastate their air force without the anti-magic.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 11, 2017, 09:57:50 pm
Post by: RAM on May 11, 2017, 10:03:51 pm
Quote
2.5 - Improved Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450795#msg7450795): Andres, 10ebbor10 RAM.5I would like the improved frost tower, except they are blowing the frost back at us when outside of its range, freezing our homelands, and the frost towers could serve as lookouts. We would likely need a revision to warm our peoples. Also they already serve as fortifications, with a bit more height we could get spotting towers.
1? Dragon Micro-Cannons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450842#msg7450842): Light gorger?
0 Frost Thrower Heavy weapon emplacement (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450845#msg7450845):
0 AS-HC3 "Unending" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450881#msg7450881):
0 Flak Shells. AS-SO1-AA "Turbulence" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450881#msg7450881):
0 Lazarus Initiative (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450884#msg7450884):
0 AS-AMD1 "Obelisk" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450891#msg7450891):
0 Magegems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450908#msg7450908):
0 Crystalworks (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450908#msg7450908):
0 Flares (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450941#msg7450941):
0 Sacrificial summons: Frost Vulture Aviary Program (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450983#msg7450983):
0 Summon Giant Fire-wasps. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450983#msg7450983):
0 Tall Frost towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450983#msg7450983):
0 Pillar of unmagic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761):
4 - Giant Falcons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7451013#msg7451013): Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, FallacyofUrist, Roboson
1 - Flare Wands (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7451085#msg7451085): RAM
0.5 Homing Fireballs (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7451103#msg7451103): RAM.5
The micro-cannons seem a bit minor to me. I think we need to focus on the navy and air at the moment. Both are extremely neglected.
The frost-thrower seems like it would be shelled to death from beyond its range befoe it can fire.
Unending seems like a silly method. We could summon shells, already loaded, instead. ACtually, we could probably do that with an order, given how much crystal experience we have, and given that the shells don't have and chemical explosives in them. Crystals shells would be lighter, but just pop, summon a shell already loaded... They would be dispellable, of course, but throwing their antimagic around reduces their magical support and it is not like we would stop using mundane shells...
I would again use magic for Turbulence. Just package some ball-bearing(ancient things) into a summoned crystal with grooves to make it spin(rifling). The crystal unsummons with time and then *pop* ball bearins show off centrifugal force... We could summon additional crystals with shorter life-times to act as a countdown for when the crystal will unsummon. This could apply not just ackack but also air-burst rounds... Givn that we already have loads of crystals, and ball0bearings are dead-simple, this would probably be a revision...
Lazarus is nice, but is very ambitious, would likely fail against antimagic, and does nothing for air and sea.
Obelisk is like my pillar of unmagic, which seems like it could have shut the enemy down several times. But unlike the pillar of unmagic, I do not see it being ableto alter its intended target and I suspect that it would be more complex to construct, given the miniaturaisation.
Magegems are basic nice, but ehh, our artiller works, we need something to make up for its choke-points, either making the good ones cheaper or spotting for them.
The flavour-text for crystalworks makes no sense to me, but I am not the G.M....
Flares sound neat, but I think that we can do good-enough with a revision, or as a component of something larger.
My Vultures are not as bad as they sound. Firstly, they will win the altitude arms-race (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%BCppell's_vulture). Second, this is mostly old magic. We were modifying critters way back in 911 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7395851;topicseen#msg7395851). This is basically the same thing, just more advanced, but there is bound to have been some experts crop up in such an old field. I cannot actually find a quote where it says that it actually makes a difference how long the technology has been around for, but I am sure I heard it soemwhere... It is a gateway research into permanent and magic-immune conjuration, which is the crux of its difficulty, and I have already explained a good reason why it would work and used circuits and stuff to help justify it. We already have experience taming animals from our horses. These are summoned animals made to specifications, with the standard variance for magical chaos, taming them should not be especially difficult compared to horses, except that they are giant killing machines that can fly, which is unavoidable given the needs of the design. Finally, they are vultures, getting them to circle over enemy positions should be dead-simple by abusing narrative compulsion. I expect, at worst, a -1 from the scale, a -1 from the complexity, and a -1 from the permanence and magic immunity(which is a single 'mundanity' action that should fly because it makes a very large amount of sense, and it could potentially fail to make them antimagic immune((Owing to them being mundane in substance but completely defy all common sense...)) which would confirm the divinity theory of antimagic that the G.M. already sold-out the enemy about unless they were lying...) which would likely be spread out for maybe a couple of minus twos and a minus one. I really don't think that we can get a technology easier with anything useful in conjured animals, and we already have conjured animals, so I don't see anything else being easier. This is not nearly as impossible as it looks. If requested, I will take out the frost bit, that is legitimately tricky, but oh so thematic... and it is extremely similar to what we did with the wasps.
Giant fire-wasps are too simple, but some people don't like risks. Asside from being susceptible to antimagic, and having potential issues with altitude, they are basically superior to other flying proposals.
We have towers, we need spotting, I can't be the only one to see this, but possibly a revision? But just taller towers is a super-lame revision.
Pillar of unmagic is an old idea, but by specifically designing a national effort of antimagic on well-established magics, it should be reliable, and completely shutting down their wind would make their levitation spells much weaker and we could basically own a region with this.
Giant falcons are
Flare wands seem, erm, well I want wand-tech, so it is not terrible... the again, we have ciruits now, which is most of what wand-tech does for us. Aww, man, I was just about giving up on not voting for my own stuff, and moving onto the 1/7.5/.5 method, and then... awwww...
Homing fireballs are really really good, but I think that we could do good enough with a revision. Just manual detonation would be most of what we need, and we might be able to get the whole thing given how many fireball variations we have gone through.
Whatever. After giving it some thought, Arstotzka's plant mages can now affect patches of plants in a diameter equal to their height and grow them up to their own height, regardless of the plants type or initial size. All their boats are now steam ships, because it makes sense that an ordinary wooden boat cost the same with a steam engine on it. I'm not changing their new artillery piece or nerfing Moskurgs carpets. I'm tired of arguing.Wow, we are the best at whining. Thankyou! For the game, mostly... though the buffs do lend a certain zing.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 11, 2017, 10:05:11 pm
You didn't need to do that, though; I was trying to provide proof primarily to back up my request for more fair things in the future. Changing things like this is bound to make some people upset.
Thanks, though. If it's any consolation, I'll try to be less confrontational about this kind of thing if it happens again. I originally intended to just point out something without arguing further, but I got carried away. Again, I know it's definitely hard for you to balance the complaints and opinions of both sides and try to be fair. I know I just said this in the Core thread, but again: I love Wands Race and I have you to thank for it.
EDIT: @RAM:
Summoning fully loaded shells is an extremely ambitious idea. And we'd also need to invest in anchored crystal, and that would further increase magic dependence of cannons.
Pillar of Magic is extremely ambitious. You want to cancel out a spell across an entire theatre? I have doubts that would even be something that could ever be allowed.
Falcons are most certainly not a new field. They're definitely improving in one of our lesser-known fields, but it's nota new field. Vultures, though? Again, way too ambitious. You want to replace a creature's bones with crystal, make them better in every way, give them dead men switches, and create what's definitely a new field of magic - sacrificing?
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 11, 2017, 11:52:51 pm
Owls can hunt easily at night, stopping the Moskurgian raids.
Post by: RAM on May 12, 2017, 12:06:02 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 12, 2017, 01:23:40 am
Quote
2.5 - Improved Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450795#msg7450795): Andres, 10ebbor10 RAM.5
1? Dragon Micro-Cannons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450842#msg7450842): Light gorger?
0 Frost Thrower Heavy weapon emplacement (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450845#msg7450845):
0 AS-HC3 "Unending" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450881#msg7450881):
0 Flak Shells. AS-SO1-AA "Turbulence" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450881#msg7450881):
0 Lazarus Initiative (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450884#msg7450884):
0 AS-AMD1 "Obelisk" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450891#msg7450891):
0 Magegems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450908#msg7450908):
0 Crystalworks (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450908#msg7450908):
0 Flares (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450941#msg7450941):
0 Sacrificial summons: Frost Vulture Aviary Program (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450983#msg7450983):
0 Summon Giant Fire-wasps. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450983#msg7450983):
0 Tall Frost towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450983#msg7450983):
0 Pillar of unmagic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7447761#msg7447761):
4 - Giant Falcons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7451013#msg7451013): Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, FallacyofUrist, Roboson
1 - Flare Wands (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7451085#msg7451085): RAM
1.5 Homing Fireballs (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7451103#msg7451103): RAM.5 voidslayer
I am going to endorse my own fireball upgrade, we need to go back to the basics on this.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 12, 2017, 03:01:14 am
If we counter the bombs, we remove their naval, ground and Air advantage.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 12, 2017, 05:43:00 am
There are 17 items on the list, most of whom come from just 2 players. It clutters everything up, and prevents real discussion.
Anyway, while we counter The Moskurgians, we must also remember that they have a wood bonus now. Any chance of taking the seas will be gone once they apply that to their boats.
Post by: Generally me on May 12, 2017, 06:41:57 am
Something like a wild magic arrow that whips up the wind around it while using some of it to stay on course.
Maybe just a plain old anti magic ball you can shoot or something.
Or just a wind mages so we can, as I said before, just contest it.
It's unfortunate you can't really counter anti magic really, can't exactly have anti-anti magic. I wish anti magic wasn't allowed feels like a bit of a cop out to be honest, can't think of an inventive way to counter something? Anti magic!
Post by: Andres on May 12, 2017, 06:47:07 am
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 12, 2017, 10:32:28 am
But the frost tower is nice to upgrade. Like you've been saying, it provides a general bonus to all areas of combat. If you can convince me why the Moskurgs won't be able to counter it and turn it back against us, I'm game.
Post by: Andres on May 12, 2017, 10:41:54 am
But the frost tower is nice to upgrade. Like you've been saying, it provides a general bonus to all areas of combat. If you can convince me why the Moskurgs won't be able to counter it and turn it back against us, I'm game.Not just that it's a general bonus, but that it's an army killer, as proven by their use in the Mountains.
As for counters, well, it's impossible for Moskurgs to not be able to make a counter. ALL things can be countered. There is nothing that cannot be countered. That frost towers can theoretically be countered is, I feel, not a good reason to not vote for them, because if you apply that reasoning to other designs - "I will not vote for this because Moskurg can develop a counter" - then you will vote for nothing.
It should be noted, however, that Moskurg hasn't already developed anything to deal with our frost towers. The best they have is a slight mitigating effect. For the Giant Falcons, however, they already have a counter - Lucky Shot. Doesn't matter how many birds we have or how good they are, all they have to do is use a spell they already have and they'll be rendered useless. They have no such easy counter for our frost towers and it'll take a long time for them to develop one, during which time we will kill swathes of them with the frost towers and upgrade the towers so their counters are rendered useless.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 12, 2017, 10:50:11 am
Also, just how slight is slight?
Do note that it may be less powerful in a region that is not naturally cold as the mountains are. I agree that we should improve our towers, but I'm not sure now is the time to do it. Unless you have some idea that gets around their current counter(desert wind pushing the cold back onto us).
Post by: Andres on May 12, 2017, 11:26:30 am
Also, just how slight is slight?It only seemed to do anything in the Jungle and it downgraded snow to very cold rain, and the range of that was limited to just their own side.
Do note that it may be less powerful in a region that is not naturally cold as the mountains are.That's not how it works. It works by decreasing temperature by a flat amount, not by amplifying what cold there already is. Just to make up a number, it decreases temperature in the Jungle and the Mountains both by 20C even though one is much hotter than the other.
I agree that we should improve our towers, but I'm not sure now is the time to do it.Be sure. It would let us take the Plains, give them a sever debuff on the Jungle, and completely lock down the Mountains, allowing us to empty that region of troops so we can get the revision credit.
But honestly, why do you think now's not the time to do it? What critical component is missing that would justify it? That they developed flying units can't be it, because the frost towers will kill them/debuff them too. It can't be that their skirmishing is winning, because killing their armies would prevent them from skirmishing entirely. What, then?
Unless you have some idea that gets around their current counter(desert wind pushing the cold back onto us).Their counter is crap, only works when they're near the desert, and the upgrades will negate the counter.
Glory to Arstotzka.
EDIT: You seem like a fairly reasonable guy. Can you explain to me the logic of "Something proven to kill entire armies will not help us in X area of combat as much as something else" that people have been using?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 12, 2017, 11:50:19 am
That and it doesn't just do our work for us. It makes it easier but they don't suddenly start to drop. You seem to believe that upgrading our frost towers with a design will suddenly freeze the enemy to death. It doesn't and wouldn't do that.
Their skirmishing advantage would stay just like it is. Their armies don't just disappear with frost towers.
My current support priority:
Magegems > Giant Falcons > Frost Towers.
But no one else seems to be supporting Magegems, so...
Oh, and regarding their lucky strike versus Giant Falcons: The design is made primarily to counter their carpets (which will be flying mostly out of range of even their artillery) and to serve as a basis for further improvement. Messenger and sentry roles are secondary, as are offensive roles.
Post by: Generally me on May 12, 2017, 11:53:56 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 12, 2017, 12:01:02 pm
We've tried many times to get working Anti-magic ammunition to just straight-up keeping them from casting wind spells, but we keep on getting disastrous rolls on AM ammo. See the Equalizer for example.
And there haven't been many other other suggested possible ways of countering it other than stuff like that or multi-action improvements to the AM charm.
Post by: Andres on May 12, 2017, 12:14:07 pm
That and it doesn't just do our work for us. It makes it easier but they don't suddenly start to drop. You seem to believe that upgrading our frost towers with a design will suddenly freeze the enemy to death. It doesn't and wouldn't do that.Except we saw exactly that happening in the Mountains. The cold wiped most of them out and what resistance left was token - nowhere near enough to stop us. It won't make all the Moskurgs freeze to death in the Jungle (it'll just give them a severe debuff), but it will make them freeze to death in the Plains, which our towers are currently making as cold as the Mountains used to be.
Their skirmishing advantage would stay just like it is. Their armies don't just disappear with frost towers.The skirmishing advantage will vanish without, you know, skirmishers, which our frost tower will kill, which I am claiming they will do because they did that in the Mountains.
You are very frustrating to argue against. I say "They will be army killers, based on the Mountains", you say "They won't be army killers, because they currently aren't army killers outside of the Mountains". I say "Skirmishing will be diminished because they'll kill the skirmishers", you say "Skirmishing will not be diminished because skirmishers - and the armies they're attached to - are effectively immune to frost towers".
Sometimes you don't even provide that reasoning.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 12, 2017, 12:19:01 pm
And it also very clearly did not kill everyone. They'll still have skirmishes, their defense advantages, their formation advantages, and pretty much every other advantage of theirs. Just a bit less powerful than before.
Evicted, is it possible that we could be given a bit more details on how effective the frost towers are? It's hard to be sure when they're not the only factor.
Post by: Andres on May 12, 2017, 12:33:58 pm
Evicted, is it possible that we could be given a bit more details on how effective the frost towers are? It's hard to be sure when they're not the only factor.+1. Either I will be vindicated or I will be shown a better path.
Post by: RAM on May 12, 2017, 03:30:44 pm
Can someone give me a reply on why we're not countering their use of wind? PlezBecause nobody wants to vote for the pillar of unmagic...
If you have a better proposal then please, be my guest.
As for why we are not countering lucky strike, that would be bcause nobody wants to vote for antiluck charms, or the pillar of unmagic... Again, if you have a better proposal...
Also, please change away from the falcons. It is the wrong design stream, it is backing us out into life, a very fundamental vein that will be difficult to pull off and be a long time coming with tangible benefits. A healing spell would be super-nice but limited to battlefields we mostly win. Mutant soldiers would also be nice, but difficult to get dramatic impriovements. Permanent conjuration, on the other hand, meshes brilliantly with our pre-existing technologies.
It is also the wrong bird, they lack altitude and are not dangerous enough, and definitely not resilient enough. If we are going the animal route we need a proper monster, not just a big bird. Life magic is bad at proper mnonsters, conjuration is good at proper monsters... That is why my proposal for vultures is no more difficult that the falcon proposal, becuase it works to our strengths in conjuration, modifying conjured animals, combining conjured anmials with thermal effects... Okay mixing in crystals is a bit of a stretch, but it is a monster, it is supposed to have quirks! What sort of fantasy world doesn't at least have flame-breath that makes no physical sense? And crystals and animals are both conjuration, the crystal spell is derived from our conjuration spells, and wasps are the only properly solid one we had, and carapace and wasp-nests both have similarities to crystals, while I really don't know much about webs... So combining crystals with summoned animals is probably not that odd...
And then again, finding, catching, breeding, and training wild falcons is difficult. Summoning new monsters and using our experience with horses on the some-what blank-slate but probably-hostile-because-monster newly summoned beasties is actually much more plausible. They were summoned by us, "obey your creator" has never gone poorly for anyone, and they don't have a preexisting culture with which to resist us. And by summoning them we just have to spot one once, not go out and raid their nests...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 12, 2017, 03:58:07 pm
And the pillar of unmagic is also insanely over-ambitious. Right now we can make Very Expensive charms that block out all magic in a very small range. You want to go from that to a giant tower that affects an entire theatre and selectively blocks out one spell?
Post by: Generally me on May 12, 2017, 04:19:47 pm
Also thanks for the explanation Cheifwaffle.
Post by: RAM on May 12, 2017, 05:04:49 pm
We have notice that the air behaves rather strangely around our forever frost towers. It also behaves strangely around our fire walls. It seems to move 'up' when hot and 'down' when cold. After somemathemagical analysis, we have conjectured that, on a very large scale, this seems to rather explain much of our historic weather patterns, considering the cold mountains and tundra and the warmer climes elsewhere. In short, we create an inverted, and redirected, forever frost tower. Instead of generating cold around where it is, it generates heat around a point very high above itself. This is then paired with a forever frost tower. After the prototype was deployed and we witnessed what happens when you put a 100 kilometre radius of sweltering air above a 100 kilometre radius of freezing air, we added a great deal of metal reinforcement to both towers...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 12, 2017, 05:15:24 pm
I may not think upgrading the Frost Tower is a viable option, but making it even worse isn't exactly a good idea.
@Generally me: Good base idea, but the wind manipulation part seems like a side-effect and thus small-scale.
Post by: RAM on May 12, 2017, 06:01:34 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 12, 2017, 08:02:48 pm
Arstotzkan Hybrid Mechanized Walker 1 "Walker"
Our troops tend to not do well on the fields. Improvements over the years to Moskurg weaponry makes them formidable foes, and a single troop goes down too easily. We at the Academy have mulled over the possibilities of doing things like giving our troops crystal plated armor or better weapons, but really, what's the point? It's just throwing rocks against Moskurger wind magic.
So
We start with the first issue: Movement.
Movement is required to actually make something that isn't a fancy (but of superior Arstotzkan craftsmanship of course) statue. Joints are carefully created and connected to our steam engine via primarily gears and axles. However, there's another mechanism we have called "hydraulics" used in rare spots across the design due to its complexity. The hydraulics operate off of steam from the internal steam engine. Circuits are carefully engrained across the machine from the area designed for the human occupant to allow for control.
The Walker is only able to be controlled by mages thanks to the requirement for the user to be able to interact with the control circuits. The mage spends most of their attention on the battlefield and operating the Walker, and only a marginal amount of their magic is devoted towards running it.
The entire contraption is powered by a series of Magegems. While the user does have to be a mage in order to control it, the Walker simply cannot be powered by the will of one mage alone. The mage, as previously established, primarily operates the circuits, while the Magegems power the steam engine and other devices. The magegems should last relatively long period times in combat - more than enough for an engagement. Typically a number of mages recharge the Walker when not in battle to expedite the recharging process, but in emergency situations or on the field one mage can still charge the Magegems. It just may take a bit longer.
In the rare circumstance of a Walker losing power in combat, the mage typically departs and either recharges their Walker to last for a couple more minutes or continues the engagement on foot before returning to the walker for a full recharge.
The whole thing is quite large - roughly twice the size of a regular man. The controlling mage is strapped to the torso of the contraption (to avoid a few gruesome joint-related accidents we experienced in testing) and controls it from there.
The majority of the walker takes advantage of our plentiful metal. The metal makes up the structure, frame, and other essential parts of the Walker. Crystal plating is then added to the final product. A coat of transparent crystal (something which should be easily accomplished given our knowledge of crystal) is then placed over the occupant's location. As a result, the Walker is completely invulnerable to fire. It's also theorized that perhaps the Walker could even take a direct hit from a ballista bolt without breaking down, though any more damage would probably mean the end of the Walker even if it could survive a bolt.
In terms of infantry, firebombs, and arrows, the Walker is nearly invulnerable to anything but a direct coordinated infantry attack.
In terms of weapons, the Walker is given a large scaled-up broadsword attached to the right "hand" and something vaguely resembling a fist for the other. We wanted to have the left "hand" actually work as a hand with working fingers and whatnots, but it just so happens to turn out that doing that would be really hard. The Walker's main weapon is terror. Just seeing a Walker enter the battle should terrify the coward Moskurgers and strike fear into their hearts.
We don't expect this to be an easy project. Revisions and perhaps new designs will be necessary. This design is intended to provide a base to be able to use to create something usable with at least one if not more revisions. But something usable would always be nice.
-Crystal plating
-Fire invulnerability
-Shielded cockpit
TL;DR:
A very primitive mech. The design is meant to be initially done in an action as almost a "prerequisite"/"theory" design. We'd probably have to get all 6's for this to be useful enough on the battlefield in one design, but with maybe 1-2 designs/revisions, the Walker could be a fearsome part of our arsenal. It takes time to make, but it's worth it.
It's roughly the height of two men and the rest is scaled up proportionally. It carries (by which I mean has attached to it) a giant broadsword and "fist", but should be great at terror. It's mostly made out of metal (and shouldn't break down if crystal disappears) but has crystal armoring. The pilot of the thing is strapped to the center torso and is covered by transparent crystal plating. The Walker should be invulnerable to fire bombs and extremely useful against arrows and infantry. Hopefully it can tank a near-hit from a bolt, but its primary weakness would be artillery.
It uses magegems to operate its internal steam engine and other devices, though it needs a mage to control it.
TL;DR TL;DR: Basically the primitive first heavy armor of Wands Race.
Why?
You know why.
How?
It definitely needs Magegems done first, and maybe a miniaturization revision to the steam engine. The first iteration will primarily be a proof of concept. After this design is done, we can address the problems in future designs/revisions and get something well worth the actions spent.
Really, the only actual new technology is the joints and basic hydraulics, but I mean, it is basic hydraulics and this is a primitive mech, so one design probably isn't going to make the envisioned product at first.
Prerequisites
- Magegems (100% definitely need this. Well, we could have it require a support team of mages behind it at all times, but that's disadvantageous.)
- Crystalworks (Would really help. Evicted did say we're practically at manufacturing limits without a dedicated facility, and permanent better crystal would help this design. Not essential, but would definitely be helpful.)
- Better steam engine? (Maybe. Might just be better to make Crystalclads and improve steam engines a bit in there then use that experience. Otherwise, maybe a revision in something like engine miniaturization.)
I actually seriously think this is a good idea to do in the near future. Why near future? Because no matter what stuff we develop beforehand, this design will take multiple actions to get working. But when we do get it working, it'll be worth it. Yes, it is overambitious, but that's the point. We do something like this, then maybe spend a design and revision to fix it up.
If we do do it, we should do so quickly. I'm nearly positive that in order for it to not be a National Effort, it has to take advantage of the mountain metals and we don't know how long we can keep that.
Hell, I'd be okay with going Magegem -> Walker, starting with Magegem this turn. I want to start making new things!
And on a side note, some future improvements: AN INTEGRATED CANNON. The ability to cast fireball. Crystal weapons. The improvements coming with Crystalworks. And more.
Post by: Roboson on May 12, 2017, 08:25:12 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 12, 2017, 08:28:42 pm
That's one of the aspects of the HC3 - Note how I included a swivel mount as well as the greatly improved fire rate to the design.
Besides, our cannons are artillery after all. Without that greater rate of fire and with such large projectiles, it's not exactly practical for the HA1 or HC1-E to even bother trying to fire on flying units, even when possible.
Post by: Andres on May 12, 2017, 08:41:45 pm
PrerequisitesAnother pre-requisite would be anti-magic resistance, otherwise they'd fall apart as soon as anti-magic is applied to them.
- Magegems (100% definitely need this. Well, we could have it require a support team of mages behind it at all times, but that's disadvantageous.)
- Crystalworks (Would really help. Evicted did say we're practically at manufacturing limits without a dedicated facility, and permanent better crystal would help this design. Not essential, but would definitely be helpful.)
- Better steam engine? (Maybe. Might just be better to make Crystalclads and improve steam engines a bit in there then use that experience. Otherwise, maybe a revision in something like engine miniaturization.)
Speaking of anti-magic, perhaps we should design a Dispel spell? We have experience in anti-magic and this would be a fairly effective way of doing stuff like removing their wind magic from play. Perhaps we can use our anti-magic charms as a necessary component of the spell to make it easier?
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 12, 2017, 08:50:43 pm
So the current "best way" I see:
Magegem -> Antimagic Resistance -> Walker -> Crystalworks.
Magegem is just something that we should have and I really want. It also can serve as a base for antimagic resistance. Since we know that Moskurg antimagic is religious-based, couldn't we revise the Magegems or do something similar to basically ignore their antimagic?
And I still kind of want Walkers regardless of anti-magic. Since all their troops won't be fighting within anti-magic range, and even at anti-magic range they won't always have anti-magic mages available.
My main problem with just flat-out antimagic resistance is that it would inspire Moskurg to do the same to our antimagic. It'd probably be better if I baked it into the design.
I'm going to add a (duplicate, because I lack morals) vote to Magegems, actually. If enough people switch their vote to Magegems over Giant Falcons, I'd likely remove my Giant Falcons vote as well. I just want to get Magegems over with. I already have high confidence in Flare as a revision this turn, anyways. And I said, now's the time for designs that won't be immediately useful.
Quote
DesignsI removed all the designs with 0 votes to avoid cluttering. If someone wants to re-add them, just take them from the votebox before me.
2.5 - Improved Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450795#msg7450795): Andres, 10ebbor10 RAM.5
1? Dragon Micro-Cannons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450842#msg7450842): Light Forger?
1 Magegems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450908#msg7450908): Chiefwaffles
4 - Giant Falcons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7451013#msg7451013): Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, FallacyofUrist, Roboson
1 - Flare Wands (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7451085#msg7451085): RAM
1.5 Homing Fireballs (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7451103#msg7451103): RAM.5 voidslayer
EDIT: And a Dispel could definitely work. Have a Mage "channel" far-away magic into an anti-magic charm. Could maybe even include selectiveness on the first design, but range would be priority.
Post by: Roboson on May 12, 2017, 09:05:44 pm
Anti-magic Staff
Using our knowledge of wand magic that we gained from reverse engineering the fireball wand and creating our dogwood wands, we craft anti-magic staffs (just larger wands). They are metal rods topped with an anti-magic crystal. The wand itself allows magic to be channeled through the wand into the crystal, which recalibrates the magic into antimagic. This creates a focusing effect, which releases anti-magic in a directional beam. The beam slices through magic and enchantments, thus destabilizing the spellwork and dispelling magical effects.
Edit: Also quick thought here. If their Greek fire is made with/of magic, shouldn't it not work when near our anti-magic crystals?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 12, 2017, 09:56:57 pm
Like as a tool, not an ingredient. I don't get why they'd even be able to do without penalties, but whatever.
And I like the Anti-Magic Staff.
Buut people should still vote for Magegems. Though preferably if the person is already voting for Giant Falcons they could make it a duplicate vote.
Because, my current personal priorities:
Magegems > Giant Falcons > Anti-magic Staff > Improved Frost Towers = Homing Fireballs
Post by: Roboson on May 12, 2017, 10:11:02 pm
Seperate Research Teams
After years of arguement two separate factions developed in our R&D team. Each group thought the other was going to lead us to our doom, and due to those irrevocable differences, the two factions split into seperate design teams. One remained in the capital, and the second set up a research base deep within the mountains. Now the two teams each create a design independently of each other and effectively put out two designs and revisions each year. However, after separation, neither group gains the research development bonuses gained from the other team. (So if one side figures out how to make cannons great, the other design team wouldn't gain any bonuses to their designs that came from that).
Evicted probably won't let something like that fly, but man, that would surely solve a lot of our issues (and double our output :P )
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 12, 2017, 10:13:53 pm
psst roboson. duplivote for magegems
Post by: Roboson on May 12, 2017, 10:21:32 pm
psst roboson. duplivote for magegemspsst chiefy. i try to avoid duplivotes. i only resort to them when it is required to get my voice/vote heard. which means i only do them on turns when basically everyone else is doing them, and i don't like the result. i personally think the multivote system has not only caused a lot of friction within our team, but also wrecked our ability to have a fair voting system. for now imma stick with giant birds.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 12, 2017, 10:25:57 pm
You have situations like this one where I really want Magegems to win but doing so without duplicate votes means Giant Eagles loses, which I still greatly prefer over upgraded frost towers.
Oh well.
Post by: Roboson on May 12, 2017, 11:44:28 pm
Post by: RAM on May 13, 2017, 12:43:55 am
So I would prefer to have a preferential system, where no vote is lost. But an unequal-vote system is a compromise. You get to play politics with your primary vote, but you get to spread your attention with your minor votes. That way everyone gets a bit of what they want.
But one vote per person is in the first post, so it has rules backing it up if anyone cares to enforce them.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 13, 2017, 03:26:00 am
Anyway, if we are going Giant Falcons we might also consider opening a fifth arena, underground monsters that can sneak up on and attack their ballistas directly from underground.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 13, 2017, 03:28:56 am
Now's the time to discuss it then because the game is on a hiatus. (Go read the Core thread if you haven't already.)
Post by: RAM on May 13, 2017, 04:42:16 am
And no, I am totally not basing this off oc alchemy! I swear that it is just convergent evolution.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 13, 2017, 04:45:59 am
But with just the goal of a good flying unit, life magic (+ a bit of conjuration) serves as a better base for it right now. Plus it is on the road to magical gene editing, which I know is something RAM wants.
Also, just wondering: Do we know if our conjured animals can get dispelled?
And please vote for Magegems. Please.
Post by: Andres on May 13, 2017, 06:59:51 am
And please vote for Magegems. Please.I'm willing to vote for Magegems, but only if you promise to vote on the Revision phase to make the frost towers cheaper.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Generally me on May 13, 2017, 04:06:44 pm
So my vote is Mage Gems
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 13, 2017, 04:08:09 pm
Giant Falcons is just a counter with no future options.Heresy.
Falcon eyes for our archers, even larger ones to ride, giving our men wings, better feathers for our arrows, specialized messenger birds, suicide bomber birds...
Imagination, son!
Post by: Roboson on May 13, 2017, 04:15:20 pm
Post by: Generally me on May 13, 2017, 04:15:35 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 13, 2017, 04:29:21 pm
Next turn I'd be fine with revising Frost Towers though.
Post by: RAM on May 13, 2017, 05:20:31 pm
Post by: Andres on May 13, 2017, 05:24:24 pm
Well, my number one want this turn is the Flare revision.No dice.
Next turn I'd be fine with revising Frost Towers though.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 13, 2017, 05:29:57 pm
Current plan of support for me:
Giant Falcons -> Magegems -> Crystalworks -> Crystalclads.
Assuming they don't introduce gamechangers again.
I just want to do something new, really. This entire time we've been playing catch-up. This entire cannons thing is because they introduced ballistae, and now we're essentially just copying them in terms of air. Though I do have great confidence in non-awful rolled Giant Falcons being great counters to their carpets as well as unlocking future things.
Quote
DesignsI added Generally me's vote to Magegems.
2.5 - Improved Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450795#msg7450795): Andres, 10ebbor10 RAM.5
1? Dragon Micro-Cannons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450842#msg7450842): Light Forger?
2 Magegems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7450908#msg7450908): Chiefwaffles, Generally me
4 - Giant Falcons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7451013#msg7451013): Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, FallacyofUrist, Roboson
1 - Flare Wands (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7451085#msg7451085): RAM
1.5 Homing Fireballs (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7451103#msg7451103): RAM.5 voidslayer
EDIT: To clarify on my plans... (Moskurger spies get out)
First, we get Giant Falcons. They serve as a basic air interceptor with limited ground support capabilities. I have confidence that assuming no awful rolls, Giant Falcons will last for quite a while with the occasional revision to keep them relevant.
Revision-wise, we should go for Flares. It's a simple spell that we know we can definitely do in a revision. It helps in skirmishes, it helps our HA1's spot, helps our ground forces be less useless against their carpets in the night, and helps in communication. In terms of the action economy, Flares are an extremely wise decision for just a revision.
Next, we get Magegems. This should be done as soon as possible, because Magegems are extremely useful for just about every design.
For the revision, I'd tentatively say Frost Towers. I don't like pre-planning revisions because there's always a good chance you'll need them to either fix that turn's design or to update a design to be relevant against Moskurg designs.
Then, Crystalworks. Crystal was a major advantage of ours and we still have designs based on crystal that while useful, we just can't use because of their dispelling. Making crystal permanent and easy-to-make will help us greatly in the future.
Revision will probably be needed to fix Crystalworks. It's a fairly ambitious design. Not over-ambitious, but ambitious enough that I'm sure there will be some problems.
Crystalclads should be possible with Crystalworks and Magegems. The crystalworks serves as infrastructure for most of the Crystalclad (Hell, if the Crystalworks goes well enough most of the Crystalclads can be made out of crystal due to its lightness). Crystalclads will be our gamechanger in terms of naval warfare. Crystalworks is immensely helpful in this regard, as it'll really help with the expense of the Crystalclad and make it so the crystal can't be dispelled. Magegems is essential for the design, but shouldn't add any complexity as with well-rolled Magegems, we can just say "plop some magegems in there" and it should work. Really, the main parts of Crystalclads are "make it a lot bigger and out of crystal". Crystalworks helps a lot with both.
Revision again has a decent chance of going to the Crystalclad. But if the Crystalworks and Magegems go well, then Crystalclads should actually be fairly simple to make.
After Crystalclads, I tentatively want to move towards antimagic and Walkers. Perhaps antimagic-proof circuits can be developed, allowing for our magegems + circuits to make designs such as the steam engine effectively mundane other than occasional recharging of the magegems. This may actually be able to be done in a revision to Magegems, as it can be reasoned-fluff wise and in terms of balance, it'd only be affecting our magitech stuff.
Once we can antimagic-proof circuits+magegems, we can make Walkers. Crystal armoring is provided by the Crystalworks, power provided by Magegems, and resistant to antimagic; making the Walker a surprisingly obtainable design.
Sheesh. Stupid browser spell-checking; that above edit is nearly unreadable while editing due to all the red squiggles.
Post by: Roboson on May 13, 2017, 10:30:30 pm
Post by: RAM on May 14, 2017, 03:07:16 pm
So anyway, the cold sucks in air, and chills it, magnifying the chilling effect by multiplying the volume of air within it. It also causes a high pressure zoe, which causes that air to be too heavy for its surroundings, so it falls. At the bottom, however, there is less cause to fall, so instead it is just high pressure surrounded by low pressure, especially in warmer areas. The high pressure cold air obviously expands into the warm air creating wind, and the falling air from above also creates wind, and pushes air into the warm areas, increasing the area of the expansion effect, thus accelerating the wind-force.
Of course, to survive this wind we need stronger towers, so we need to install massive metal beams through the length of their structure. like a tent. This will, of course, attract all of the lightning, which is being drawn to the tower by convection anyway. Now, these beams will have a very large electrical capacity so their will be very effective lightning rods, so long as people don't stand next to them, it should mean greatly reduced effects of lightning, even while the massive increase in air-flow increases the net volume of lightning.
So, in short:
Towering Forever Frost towers
Extend the height of the effect to 15 - 20 kilometres and include heavy metal reinforcement. Use convention to create *MASSIVE!!!* wind flows away from the towers to an extreme range especially towards warmer areas.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 16, 2017, 06:03:01 pm
That being said, I have a new-found intolerance of whining, so please respect Rule #2 in the Salt Addendum.
It seems like the wining vote is for Giant Falcons. Unless that changes soon, I'll roll up the design for it.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 16, 2017, 06:21:31 pm
If you guys are up for picking this back upWhat kind of question is that?
And while I completely doubt it'd come up again, but if I ever have a problem I'll just keep it to a single post and not argue it with others. Again, though, I don't think that situation will ever come up again.
Don't forget to give a -6 penalty to every one of Moskurg's rolls as reparations for the sins you have committed upon our side. /s of course
Post by: RAM on May 16, 2017, 06:49:34 pm
Grave of the Fireflies:
A quartz
Just realised, that with their rate of fire dropping from lacking magic, their ballistae must be magical. So this would take them out over an area... It'd also drop their carpets by the dozen just by being in the vague area...
Post by: evictedSaint on May 16, 2017, 09:00:43 pm
Capturing falcons is hard. After managing to capture a few, we finally have enough to start our own breeding system, ensuring that our Mathemagicians will never, ever, ever be sent out into the field with a few web-wands and be told to "catch a fuckload of birds".
Training falcons also proves to be really, really hard. Each falcon requires years of dedicated training, and quite frankly we don't have time for that. We instead develop a rudimentary "Beast Control" spell to assist in the taming, training, and imprinting of our falcons. This spell is pretty tricky to get right, but nowhere near as hard as catching a wild falcon - luckily it's made easier by our forays into beast conjuring and plant growth. The spell is permanent and doesn't require any further maintenance to keep going, instead altering the falcons mind during casting. The falcons are then equipped with a small anti-magic "bracelet" that wraps around one of their legs in a leather strap. It is relatively small, but it should keep them safe from any nasty magic that Moskurg tries on them. As a bonus, it should also strip a mage of their magical ability once they start mauling them in the face.
Because of their high cost and mage-targeting role, our Mage Hunters are trained in falconry and given their own "falcon familiars".
It is important to note that falcons are not immune to being shot with arrows, lightning, or large tennis rackets, but their small size, speed, and ferocity is more than enough to make up for their fragile nature. Very Expensive.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 16, 2017, 09:12:42 pm
But other than that, awesome. Solid roll with zero bugs. We can see how well they do this combat phase then address any issues or possible improvements in later revisions.
Also, fun fact: This spell paves the way to mindmagic and brainwashing.
Quote
instead altering the falcons mind during casting.So we have experience in altering minds now.
Now, for the revision. Mostly copied+pasted from earlier post.
Revision: Flare
One night, when a bored mage was staring at the theatre from the top of a Frost Tower, he noticed the bright fires all over the theatre located where the fighting was thanks to the
So, he thought - why not use that?
The idea is simple: Use our fireballs for communication. The Streamlined Fireball is taken as the base, then instead of destructive power, our Mathemagicians tweak the Fireball spell to create massive amounts of light and to allow casting mages to choose the color. Now the Streamlined Fireball can be shot upwards into the sky, where it'll provide illumination on the ground below and signal other soldiers in the area. Certain colors can also be interpreted to mean different things - for example, red could be used to signal for artillery strikes, blue could be used to signal enemy troop locations, and the illumination provided by the flare will light up the ground below at night, making it easier for our men in skirmishes. Some have even theorized that strings of different colors could be used to send "encoded" messages across troops. If there's anything in the sky, we can ignore the disadvantages at night, use our flares, then shoot any filthy aerial Moskurgers.
Our mathemagicians also hope that the Flare can blind any filthy Moskurger carpet riders that are too close to the flare, but it's not particularly a priority at all. Not even something we're particularly trying to do.
The extremely decreased destructive power of the Flare means it simply burns out before it can fall back to the ground.
How?
1.) Increase the brightness of the Streamlined Fireball at the expense of power. (While the flare is in a way a new spell, it's such a simple tweak (power -> brightness) that it should definitely be able to be done in a revision. )
2.) Add colors
Why?
1.) Artillery spotting. Flares can be used to signal for HA1 strikes at that destination.
2.) General battlefield communication - not extremely effective and not extremely secure, but it allows for basic communications.
3.) Skirmishing. We can create artificial light benefitting us during the night.
4.) Anti-air. Makes carpets way easier to see at night (and maybe day?). Also potentially can even blind them?
TL;DR: Revise the fireball into a much less destructive but more bright ball that can be shot into the sky as a flare. Also has multiple colors to choose from for various messages.
Quote
Votes
1 - Flare: Chiefwaffles
Why the Flare? It's extremely possible (said so by Evicted himself), and extremely helpful. It reduces their huge skirmish advantage, it acts as spotting for the HA1 and makes our extra-LOS ranged artillery much more effective. It lets our soldiers communicate in the battlefield. And finally, it helps against magic carpets even more than before.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 16, 2017, 09:13:40 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 16, 2017, 09:55:55 pm
Quote
2 - Flare: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 16, 2017, 10:00:43 pm
Send our mages out with the web spell to get some wolves and revise the spell to work on them also.
Edit:Note: Our apprentices will hate us.
Post by: Andres on May 16, 2017, 10:00:51 pm
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2 - Flare: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
1 - Cheapr MFTs: Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 16, 2017, 10:04:24 pm
Post by: Roboson on May 16, 2017, 10:06:26 pm
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3 - Flare: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Roboson
1 - Cheapr MFTs: Andres
Post by: RAM on May 16, 2017, 10:09:42 pm
Make the frost towers frost-effect pillar-shaped to get convection working for us. Should be especially effective at pushing cold into warm, because that is what happens when you have temperature differences. Basically just makes strong winds emenate from our frost towers. We got the idea when we noticed between all our experiemnts with fire walls, frost towers, and steam engines, that cold air moves down, and the further it moves, the more force it moves with...
Quote
2 - Flare: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
1 - Cheapr MFTs: Andres:
0 - Vertical Forever Frost:
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 16, 2017, 10:10:23 pm
Edit: Oh wait no, what I wanted in the first place.
Timed fireballs: The fireballs explode at a fixed time decided by the mage during casting. This allows them to be shot upwards without falling down and killing our troops.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 16, 2017, 10:13:16 pm
Quote
Votes
3 - Flare (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7456357#msg7456357): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Roboson
1 - Cheaper MFTs (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7456390#msg7456390): Andres
0 - Vertical Forever Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7456401#msg7456401):
I'm not too sure about revising the Falcons, really. So far it sounds like they'll be effective at their jobs and I'd rather wait a bit and focus on more important things for now.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 16, 2017, 10:16:51 pm
Post by: helmacon on May 16, 2017, 10:41:54 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 16, 2017, 10:42:55 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 16, 2017, 10:47:56 pm
Roll 1 is effectiveness, Roll 2 is expense, and roll 3 is bugs.
See, we should have been going for insects all along. Inherent bonus!
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 16, 2017, 11:04:32 pm
If we ever want to improve Falcons/air in general, we should probably spend a design on it. Possibilities:
1.) Giant Eagle: Bomber/heavy weapons. Eagles are already very big and we can use our experience here to actually get it working. FLYING CANNONS. Or at least like ~2 archers.
2.) War Falcons: Faster, a bit bigger, more deadly (CRYSTAL/STEEL-TIPPED CLAWS), cheaper, and more independent.
3.) Magic Falcons: Let's make some fireball-throwing Falcons. Maybe just design Magegems then do this with that?
EDIT: Evicted, would you mind naming the falcons "Hunter Falcons"? Given the result of the design, I think that name fits a bit more than giant falcon.
Post by: helmacon on May 16, 2017, 11:23:55 pm
If we do war falcons though, how about anti magic typed claws?
But for now we have super accurate air defense, and messengers. Which is pretty good.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 17, 2017, 01:33:16 am
The combat phase report states this:
Quote
Their ballistas are still uncannily accurate, but we now have HC1-E’s as our main artillery force. The small cannons aren’t as accurate and they don’t have fire-shells like Moskurg, but they fire much more quickly. Plus, we still have our HA1’s, which have a much larger caliber. We don’t have time to disassemble the HA1’s and reassemble them further back, so they’re stuck at Extreme Range with the rest of the artillery. Their large size makes them an immediate target and they are destroyed one-by-one, but they do manage to take a couple ballistas with them.So from what it sounds like, our HA1's fire at extra-LOS range at first, but as our battle lines get pushed back, we can't withdraw the HA1's fast enough and they therefore get pushed into just Extreme range? Am I right in my assumption?
I also have my question I edited in two posts ago:
EDIT: Evicted, would you mind naming the falcons "Hunter Falcons"? Given the result of the design, I think that name fits a bit more than giant falcon.
Post by: RAM on May 17, 2017, 01:45:09 am
We could try to mutate the falcons to drop fire-wasp venom...
Post by: helmacon on May 17, 2017, 02:56:13 am
If instead of growing it all at once, we could store that energy in the seed...
There are so many possibilities with that.
We could have falcons drop seeds over the enemy camps that grow into all kinds of nasty things in minuets.
Or
We could use magic bearing seeds as an alternative to Crystal magic storage.
Or
We could make reactive self healing armor. Plant plate.
Or
We could use magic altered plants as static defenses. So long as the magic is used to alter the creature, and not actually sustained it would be immune to anti magic.
Or
Ivy-clads. You can't sink the ship if the hole seals itself back up.
Or
Root traps. Generic trope root attacks for an ambush.
Or
Magic eating moss/grass. Anti magic in an autonomous plant form.
Or
A billion other things I haven't thought of yet.
Really guys, we went through all the trouble of developing this whole class of magic, and then we just got bored and moved on without doing anything useful with it!
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 17, 2017, 02:58:18 am
I think the best path for Life Magic now is growing Crystal. Preferably after crystalworks though so we can make it non-dispellable. But even then, growing crystal could still be used outside of antimagic range to quickly deploy crystal barricades and fortifications on the field.
It can start as a simple "Throw gem on ground, get instant cover" to "Easily build crystal fort within minutes." It could also be used to have crystal easily seal up holes in ships!
It's an amazing route that I definitely want to pursue after Magegems and Crystalworks.
Post by: helmacon on May 17, 2017, 03:21:43 am
Instead of Crystal works as a factory/foundry, it's Crystal works as a green house! We can grow the stuff fast enough now after all.
Two birds with one stone!
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 17, 2017, 03:50:10 am
One of the advantages we had with crystal was how precise we were able to make it - we summoned the crystal in the exact shapes required and as thus they were extremely sharp and structurally sound. By growing it, then we'd have to deal with forging it which would remove one of the advantages of crystal. I actually thought about this.
So continuing, here's my current rough plan:
Flare -> Magegem -> ? Revision -> Crystalworks -> ? Revision -> Crystalclad -> Messing with beast/life magics -> Eventually getting towards that Walker idea I had.
I'm still serious about the Walker. With Magegems and Crystalworks, it'd actually be possible.
Post by: Roboson on May 17, 2017, 07:22:49 am
Flare -> Animal Enhanced Soldiers -> Revision -> (possible more animal stuff, but probably not) -> Mage Gems -> Undispellable Crystals -> Crystalworks -> ? Revision.
If we just give all of our soldiers and mages and thanes super human sensory abilities and increased reflexes, they can just dodge their projectiles.
Post by: RAM on May 17, 2017, 03:20:02 pm
Also, if they are fast enough to dodge a ballista bolt then they are fast enough to dodge, well, all of the spears, which is pretty fast, and may take a while to achieve...
Post by: evictedSaint on May 18, 2017, 10:52:02 am
Based on our extreme knowledge of the PSF, we can quite easily manipulate key elements of the fireball to our own specifications. We strip out the explosion, heat, and weight from the spell and incorporate brighter light and color. It's actually pretty easy to do!
The end result is a room-temperature, glowing, multi-colored fireball that slowly falls back to the ground once shot into the air. We make a rudimentary signal system that uses various colors to relay information. This lets our BLOS artillery hit with reasonable accuracy, and also gives our commanders a very rough way to relay basic information.
Our mages will have to stay in range of enemy artillery to perform spotting duties, however. Normal Cost.
Please decide what troops to send to reclaim the fallen star.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 18, 2017, 11:23:39 am
Also, out of curiosity, what kind of things would we have had to sacrifice if we got just that 4 without modifiers?
Future Design: Enhanced Senses
Our soldiers just aren't good enough. Our mages and mundane troops alike are victims to ambushes, ballistae attacks, and more. What if they could "sense" this beforehand? What if in combat they had superior senses allowing them to react much better? Our troops could hear ballistae bolts while they still have time to run. Our soldiers could see ambushes before their ambushes see our soldiers.
Taking from our general experience in life magic and the Hunter Falcons project, we can devise a method to accomplish this. Initially starting with a small pool of test subjects, we can attempt to "modify" the subjects' main senses such as primarily hearing (ears) and vision (eyes), but also smell (nose). We modified Falcons' brains to skip training, so we can logically move onto modifying a soldier's senses. Once we find a suitable procedure to reliably enhance the senses of anyone deemed fit for it, we can move onto the main subjects.
The procedure is done completely when it's started, meaning it can be done to both mundane and magic-users, and isn't inherently a magical trait - it's just a natural trait brought about by magic. The result is simple - soldiers with greatly enhanced senses.
The first candidates are the mage hunters. Enhanced senses would aid them the greatest, as they can make full use of the enhanced vision and hearing to better accomplish their job of hunting mages. Then the elite mages, then our thanes (officers), then apprentices, then finally the rest of our soldiers. Those manning artillery would be able to better locate targets (perhaps even find targets from afar) and would be able to evacuate at the sign of anti-artillery fire. Our thanes can lead our troops with their enhanced senses, exposing Moskurg ambushes, finding targets, listening for Moskurg chatter, and more. Our apprentices and mages can stay out of danger much better with better senses, and the rest of our soldiers benefit from all of the mentioned positives for this project.
TL;DR: Superhuman senses. Helps our soldiers avoid artillery fire, spot things like carpets and ambushes, helps them in the skirmish face, and potentially helps our artillery thanks to better target acquisition. Also helps ranged in general since they have a better idea of where to shoot, like our anti-mage hunters.
Future Design: Beastlike Strength
Twenty years ago, in the more primitive days of magic, we may have though to make a spell essentially "enchanting" a soldier, greatly increasing their strength. But now we can do it the proper way. Using our experience in life magic and the Hunter falcons project, we can give our soldiers superhuman strength permanently without it being based on a magical effect.
First, we determine the proper safe and reliable procedure to grant our soldiers this strength in a pool of test subjects. Then, once this is done, we can begin giving it to our officers then the rest of our soldiers. The procedure is the only magical component - once they have the beastlike strength, then it's simply as mundane as any other trait.
The Beastlike Strength is exactly that - beastlike strength. Our soldiers will be far stronger than any unenhanced human could hope to be. This would only help in straight-forward infantry melees, but perhaps also in skirmishes. Our men will simply overpower those of Moskurg. A single enhanced soldier could be worth numerous Moskurg soldiers, and just imagine what the state of our army would be like if we could deploy this en masse!
TL;DR: Superhuman strength. Straightforward. Makes our infantry much much better at their job.
Future Design: Quick Healing
Healing is a troublesome prospect for our men. Every year we have many coming home with permanent and disabilitating injuries from Moskurg artillery or other combat injuries. Our soldiers are taken out of commission for way too long because of simple wounds taken in combat of all types. But like all things, this is fixable through Genemagics.
Basing the traits off of general experimentation and the traits found in animals with faster healing capabilities and the ability to regrow lost limbs, we can (through test subjects) derive a procedure to grant our soldiers extreme natural healing capabilities. Of course, the procedure is the only magical part, meaning our soldiers won't suddenly stop healing in anti-magic fields.
Our soldiers would no longer be restricted to our field "hospitals". The most serious of injuries would heal within days. Limbs can be regrown, permanent damage disappears. Though we have had some complaints from the test subjects about disappearing scars. In the field, soldiers that would normally have life-ending injuries would be able to stand back up or at the very least remain stable where they can be brought back to camp for rest while they heal. Stabbed in the gut with a sword? Simply walk back to camp where you can rest for a day and wake up to find the wound gone without a scar. Missing limbs and possessing permanent facial damage from a ballista strike? Rest for a week or two at camp and you'll be as good as new, though watch that new skin!
This could change the battlefield. Our soldiers could keep on fighting with more simple wounds and their survival rate would drastically increase in all scenarios as well as their time to get back into the battle.
TL;DR: Super-healing. Lets our soldiers shrug off minor wounds and survive + relatively quickly regenerate more serious wounds. Super helpful for just about everyone.
OR: Genemods. Have you played XCOM: Enemy Within? It's just that now. And I'm calling it "Genemagics" now. We should start relatively small with this stuff, as it is a new field.
I still think our next design should be Magegems.
I'll let other people come up with the basic "starter ideas" for what troops to send to the star. Maybe we can send all our jungle forces there instead of trying to retake the jungle?
Post by: Andres on May 18, 2017, 11:25:44 am
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on May 18, 2017, 03:27:34 pm
Post by: helmacon on May 18, 2017, 04:09:37 pm
Guys... Mind magic. Training falcon instantly....
Magic singularity. Using mind magic to greatly accelerate the training of our mages. It shouldn't be "too" difficult, cause we are basically doing the same thing, just with humans instead of birds.
Post by: RAM on May 18, 2017, 04:29:26 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 18, 2017, 04:31:59 pm
Post by: RAM on May 18, 2017, 04:38:49 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 18, 2017, 04:42:11 pm
Alternative design future idea: Warbeasts. Use genemagics to enhance beasts + tame them. Would be easy to do (basically upgraded spell that we used for Falcons)and serves as definite stepping stone towards human modification.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 18, 2017, 06:32:18 pm
Spell Imprint: Our skilled mages can implant the skill of casting some lower-level spells directly into an apprentice's head. While this won't make them better at learning or understanding what they're casting, it will let them learn to use spells better. May make it harder for them to advance in skill level if they don't learn the theory involved.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 18, 2017, 06:37:50 pm
Meteor Plan A:
1.) Send our entire Jungle army. Give them a break from the jungle for a bit and not just waste them on the meat grinder hell that is the jungle.
2.) Put the Jungle army's mage hunters on the front, using their falcons for scouting. If/when we encounter Moskurg, it'll probably be with their carpets first.
3.) Send a small amount of men from the Mountains
4.) Don't bring artillery, so we can increase speed; if we get into a fight without artillery slowing us down, then the enemy probably doesn't have artillery. If they do artillery, we should straight-up outrun them.
5.) If this wasn't already obvious, put a focus on speed. Marches, light on supplies, whatever. The goal is to get their before they get us. But if we do fight, we still have the whole jungle army.
6.) (Edit) Unless they too try to maximize speed for no reason whatsoever, we'll get there first. And if they do something silly like sending only carpets, our mage hunters will make short work of that.
Quote
Plans
1 - Meteor Plan A: Chiefwaffles
Post by: helmacon on May 18, 2017, 06:48:52 pm
Post by: RAM on May 18, 2017, 07:17:53 pm
Why not get more ambitious? Standardized spells. As part of military training, we could imprint a few spells on even our basic soldiers. Simple stuff, like flares or streamlined fireballs.I would say that would be a second design into the field, rather than a first.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 18, 2017, 07:19:50 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 18, 2017, 07:27:40 pm
Post by: helmacon on May 18, 2017, 08:07:12 pm
Implant magegems into soldier brains to let them use magic! Artificial mages!Implant mage gems into constructs to create golums! Artificial winning!
Post by: Roboson on May 18, 2017, 08:17:10 pm
Implant mags gems into our dead soldiers to creat zombies! Undead winning!Implant magegems into soldier brains to let them use magic! Artificial mages!Implant mage gems into constructs to create golums! Artificial winning!
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 18, 2017, 08:28:49 pm
But in seriousness, they can do so much and just need one mildly successful design.
Also, people should probably start voting for or creating plans so we have a consensus for the revision credit when Evicted does the combat phase.
Post by: Andres on May 19, 2017, 07:38:39 am
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1 - Myark+half of Mountaineers+quarter Plains cav (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7459088#msg7459088): Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 19, 2017, 09:13:31 am
Anyways.
Meteor Plan A:
1.) Send our entire Jungle army. Give them a break from the jungle for a bit and not just waste them on the meat grinder hell that is the jungle.
2.) Put the Jungle army's mage hunters on the front, using their falcons for scouting. If/when we encounter Moskurg, it'll probably be with their carpets first.
3.) Send a small amount of men from the Mountains
4.) Don't bring artillery, so we can increase speed; if we get into a fight without artillery slowing us down, then the enemy probably doesn't have artillery. If they do artillery, we should straight-up outrun them.
5.) If this wasn't already obvious, put a focus on speed. Marches, light on supplies, whatever. The goal is to get their before they get us. But if we do fight, we still have the whole jungle army.
6.) (Edit) Unless they too try to maximize speed for no reason whatsoever, we'll get there first. And if they do something silly like sending only carpets, our mage hunters will make short work of that.QuotePlans
1 - Meteor Plan A: Chiefwaffles
Post by: andrea on May 19, 2017, 09:32:24 am
Post by: Andres on May 19, 2017, 10:18:55 am
You didn't include my plan there, Andres.Sorry. Seems I missed it. Thought everyone was just talking about hypothetical future designs.
Quote
Plans
1 - Meteor Plan A: Chiefwaffles
1 - Myark+half of Mountaineers+quarter Plains cav (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7459088#msg7459088): Andres
Why do you want to send the Jungle army? That will just let them advance in the Taiga with literally no resistance.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 19, 2017, 11:47:10 am
And that's a good point, Andrea. Maybe we could send some ships?
Post by: Andres on May 21, 2017, 01:07:20 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on May 21, 2017, 11:56:05 pm
Note: Battle reports are now the same for both sides - save for some very select details, if needed. It's simply too much effort to make the reports unique for each side.
Combat for 933
The Taiga sees Moskurg lose ground.
Moskurg continues their campaign of firebombing Arstotzkan camps at night from high in the sky. Unlike before, Arstotzkans now have a method of defending themselves. Once a raid begins, Arstotzkan apprentices fire off multiple flares, lighting up the sky and clearly illuminating the Moskurg raiders. Moskurg has developed a new variant of their carpet; nicknamed the "War Pegasus", it can now float safely outside of arrow range. This makes Arstotzka's anti-magic bomb arrows ineffective at bringing down the invaders, but Arsotzka has also developed a new anti-carpet weapon. Trained falcons, equipped with small anti-magic gems to keep them safe from magical influence, quickly soar upwards on the updrafts caused by the numerous fires and attack the carpet-riding wizards. They are far faster than their new carpets, and the anti-magic gems sap magic from the carpets enchantments. It's not enough to make them fall out of the air, but it does make it difficult to flee once attacked. Moskurg wizards start carrying sabres and bows to combat the new falcons, but the inability to cast Lucky Strike on themselves and the blinding light from the flares makes it difficult to slash at the ball of feathers and talons scratching their face. The freezing temperatures in the Taiga once again sees the poorly-equipped Moskurgs freezing on guard duty, making Arstotzkan raids more effective. Over all, both sides do the same amount of damage and neither has a Raiding Advantage.
Moskurgs forces in the Taiga also suffers from being cut to two-thirds of their original size as a portion of the army goes off after the meteor - this, combined with Arstotzka's natural cold advantage, longer-range artillery, and anti-carpet falcons sees them pushed back to the jungle. al-Mutriqa, sadly, was not enough to hold the line.
Arstotzka regains full control of the Taiga.
In the Mountains, Arstotzka has their garrison cut down to half their size as they go off to chase down the fallen meteor.
Moskurg makes quick work of the diminished garrison size - it's a tough, uphill slog, but they manage to regain a foothold in the mountains. The cold, longer-ranged artillery, and falcons cause lots of casualties, but Moskurg simply has more men to throw at the castle walls. Their ballistas hit with uncanny accuracy and their carpet troops - though now fewer in size - are more nimble. Ballistas hammer the walls and fire rains down from above, and Moskurg pushes into the sparsely-defended territory.
Moskurg gains ground in the Mountains. Arstotzka loses their Metal Ore bonus.
The plains are close.
Much like the Taiga, raids see neither side gaining an overt advantage, although Moskurg does slightly more damage, giving them a Minor Raiding Advantage.
Arstotzka has longer-range artillery, despite having a limited number of them. They've also developed a rudimentary method of zeroing their area of effect; apprentices move into line of sight of Moskurg forces, observe where the artillery shells land, and use colored flares to communicate with the artillery operators further back. They're on the flat ground, and at long range, so their spotting isn't always effective, but Moskurg soon learns that "Green Flare" means they need to move out of the area. Unfortunately, being in range of Moskurg artillery and shooting off big, obvious flares means the apprentices are often killed as ballistas home in on them instantly. War Pegasi are still doing a decent job of hitting artillery in strike missions, and being outside of anti-magic bomb range means they don't have to deal with flak. However, they rarely do much more than knock out a few long-range HA1 artillery cannons before the falcons take flight and attack. In the day they do a better job of hacking the birds away, but a falcon attack is usually enough to drive them away. Their Teletalk wands aren't very useful for communicating at long-range, so War Pegasus squads are often on their own during raids. Additionally, Arstotzka's new primitive manner of large-scale coordination gives them a better method of coordinating attacks and barrages, albeit in a limited manner. They are without some of their heavy-calvery this year in the plains, so quick dashes across no-mans land is met with more failed attacks than normal. Overall, a bunch of people die and neither side gains a clear advantage.
Neither side gains ground in the plains.
Having worked out a logistics error, all of Arstotzka's ships are now steam ships loaded up with their HC1-E cannons. They're faster than Moskurgs ships, and though their cannons aren't as accurate they can match Moskurg for range and are just as devastating as their firebombs. Moskurg has taken to putting a War Pegasi on each ship, and once engaged with the enemy the mage stays long enough to enchant the ballista with a single Lucky Strike before taking to the air. Their firebombs are still effective against their ships, and now that they're faster they can often catch them. However, Arstotzkan falcons bring down the flying wizards often enough that the battles are a wash. The fact that the carpet can't stay aloft very long before needing re-enchanting means they can't do strike missions at beyond line of sight ranges, although they can spot Arsotzkan ships before Arstotzka can locate them. The flares are useful in coordinating large fleets of ships, better than Moskurgs short-range teletalk wands even. They do give away Arstotzka's position when they use them, though, so it's limited to combat situations. Overall, neither side has a clear advantage and a lot of people die.
Neither side gains ground in the Eastern or Western Seas.
Revision Credit!!!
Moskurg sends a third of their Taiga invasion force.
Arstotzka sends half their Mountain force, Myark, and a quarter of their Plains Calvary.
It's not even a close fight; Arstotzka outnumbers Moskurg quite soundly, and Myark helps secure their victory. They come back at the end of the year with a nugget of Meteoric Ore, retrieved from the Red Meteor. They may perform one extra Design this year that uses the Meteoric Ore to create a National Effort artifact. This Design will not contribute to their understanding of magic, and any attempt to recreate what they make with this design will require its own Design and be subject to its own roll.
It is 934, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 934 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Behavior Rules. Please Read.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 22, 2017, 12:02:22 am
So maybe we went a bit overkill with the meteor but that's a nice reward.
1.) MAGEGEMS
2.) I have no idea what to do at the moment with the meteor ore but it sounds awesome.
Evicted, do we know what properties are unique to the meteor or is it more of a situation where we come up with a reasonable idea of a design using some unique property of the meteor we come up with?
EDIT: I'm thinking better falcons for revision. They were extremely effective in this report but clearly could be more effective. We want them to be able to actually eliminate their mages. Bigger, stronger, magic, stronger antimagic, whatever.
Post by: piratejoe on May 22, 2017, 12:03:40 am
Post by: evictedSaint on May 22, 2017, 12:08:02 am
Evicted, do we know what properties are unique to the meteor or is it more of a situation where we come up with a reasonable idea of a design using some unique property of the meteor we come up with?
It is metal that will probably be good for magic stuff. Myark has requested you make something bad-ass with it to let him kill Moskurgs.
NOTE: This design will be just an "effectiveness" roll, with a +2 bonus. You can incur penalties from trying to do the normal stuff that would give you penalties - going outside known magic, doing something super ambitious (like a mass "kill everyone" spell), etc. The "amount" of metal is just enough to fulfill your design quota, regardless of what it is. You have enough to build a new steam ship, or to build an entire cannon out of it, or just enough to make a single dagger or wand, according to what the design is - within reason.
I recommend doing this Design last this turn.
Post by: RAM on May 22, 2017, 12:22:25 am
This is a summoned crystal set in a necklace that contains a circuit for the crystal and a pair of circuits that are operated by the crystal, which is capable of reacting to stimuli and directing magic into circuits.
One circuit extends the crystal's form to completely cover the wearer in a thick layer of armour, enough to withstand a ballista bolt.
The other circuit expands the crystal out into a field based upon the summon fog spell. The crystal can sense displacements in the field and uses this to sense incoming objects.
To save on magic, the activation of the armour is extremely brief, and the 'fog' is extremely sparse, being almost invisible.
The crystal operates by itself, leaving the wizard free to act independently, but requires the wizard's energy.
We attempt to instil a 'will' into the crystal, so that it is able to will itself into being in opposition to enemy antimagic.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 22, 2017, 12:32:35 am
@Evicted: Makes sense, thanks.
@Everyone else: I'm going to brainstorm some designs.
Meteor - Spire of Frost
This massive construction in the center of Arstotzka is powered at its core by refined meteor ore in conjunction with sprawling magic circuitry alongside the walls and flooring. Those few allowed in gaze in wonder at awe at the complicated linings in the wall and the glowing meteor fragments in the center. A spiral staircase up the massive tower leads to the "control" room. It's here where our team of wizards - similar to the teams that used to operate our sole tower years ago - operates the tower. Circuitry glows as the wizards operate and control the raw power of the Spire of Frost.
When in operation, beams of energy shoot up into the sky and draw clouds around the Tower, giving it an ominous shroud.
The Spire of Frost extends a massive field of influence as far as possible and as intensive as possible. In the plains and jungles, blizzards are a constant sight, and if you look in just the right spot, you can see the ominous Spire in the distance. Our mathemagicians are even planning to use the power of the Meteor to extend its influence into the desert. It may not be as powerful in the desert thanks to the range involved, but it'll be present and a constant issue for Moskurg.
Our mathemagicians have also realized that as brilliant and as we are, we too are vulnerable to some degree of cold. That's why the Spire's advanced circuitry is able to more finely tune the power input by the mages and amplified by the meteor to shield certain areas from its wrath. Namely, the places our civilians, infrastructure, and agriculture inhabit as well as already freezing areas like the taiga are all places spared by the Spire of Frost. Though a mathemagician can visit the tower to tune the circuits in case the impossible has happened and we must induce frost in previously spared areas.
TL;DR: Upgraded tower of frost. +++Range, +Cold. Instead of vulnerable mini-towers in the theatres we control, we have a massive spire in our main city decreasing the temperature as much as possible in as much of the continent as possible. Not something we ever need to replicate, so it wouldn't be a waste either. It doesn't affect places where it would be detrimental to us.
Extreme (hopefully continental) range.
Better cold. (Not as big of a deal, but it is noticeably colder.)
Doesn't affect our civilians or places where it'd hurt us.
EDIT: Added in sparing of our own lands or other places that we don't want colder.
Post by: piratejoe on May 22, 2017, 12:34:00 am
Post by: evictedSaint on May 22, 2017, 12:43:18 am
Post by: RAM on May 22, 2017, 12:49:57 am
What appears to be a massive dragon of ice is actually a nearly solid body of crystal. It uses the meteor to construct a massive spell-circuit of pure metal. This cicuit permanently sustains overlapping crystal spells that brute-force their way into allowing the crystal to move like living limbs and also uses the vast and unique magical signature of the ore to project an exclusion zone, rendering the thing separate from external magical influences. Additionally, an internal steam-furnace combined with a fog+frost spell to create snow can produce blasts of sleet from the creature's mouth. While it cannot fly, its wings do allow it to shield the rider, who must possess a great magical ability in order to maintain the flow of the magical circuits, which have a natural inclination to become idle. Within the centre of the beast is the one piece of spell-work that is permanently enabled. It does this by maintaining itself. This is a living, sentient crystal that controls the dragon, leaving the wizard free to hurl fireballs, or whatever else they might be inclined to do.
Special offer! Buy now to recieve a free!
Fair-day cage
This "dreamcatcher' is a giant cage formed from meteoric metal that accumulats the will of those around it and makes it reality using the unique spiritual properties of the metal. This is attuned to weather, thus allowing the surrounding peoples to gain the weather that they desire. Typically strong winds blowing freezing air into Kegger faces...
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 22, 2017, 01:16:50 am
I still want to make crystal defensive bunkers or longer ranged controlled fireballs.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 22, 2017, 01:22:48 am
So, I felt like mentioning this, we are arstotzka with a Norse theme, and yet, ES has told me that we don't actually have any Valkyries, at all. I feel like this should be fixed and may or may not suggest something later if someone doesn't beat me to it...
We have magic crystal war axes, they just get dispelled easily so are not used right now.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 22, 2017, 01:23:33 am
PLEASE.
The sooner we do it the better. It's infrastructure with an extreme amount of uses.
And this turn we're winning. We have an extra design phase. We can do it now and get it over with while still keeping an advantage.
Magegems are a path to the Crystalworks which has the main point of crystal permanence.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 22, 2017, 01:27:12 am
MAGEGEMS.
PLEASE.
The sooner we do it the better. It's infrastructure with an extreme amount of uses.
And this turn we're winning. We have an extra design phase. We can do it now and get it over with while still keeping an advantage.
Magegems are a path to the Crystalworks which has the main point of crystal permanence.
I will support mage gems, on the condition you have a weapon we can vote on next turn that use them. Super axes or soldier wielded fireball wands or whatever. Crystal works can be after that.
Post by: piratejoe on May 22, 2017, 01:29:29 am
Erm, magic crystal war axes or not, we don't have Valkyries which I dont really see why magic crystal war axes would count as 'Valkyrie equipment' or something...So, I felt like mentioning this, we are arstotzka with a Norse theme, and yet, ES has told me that we don't actually have any Valkyries, at all. I feel like this should be fixed and may or may not suggest something later if someone doesn't beat me to it...
We have magic crystal war axes, they just get dispelled easily so are not used right now.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 22, 2017, 01:33:09 am
Erm, magic crystal war axes or not, we don't have Valkyries which I dont really see why magic crystal war axes would count as 'Valkyrie equipment' or something...So, I felt like mentioning this, we are arstotzka with a Norse theme, and yet, ES has told me that we don't actually have any Valkyries, at all. I feel like this should be fixed and may or may not suggest something later if someone doesn't beat me to it...
We have magic crystal war axes, they just get dispelled easily so are not used right now.
We were making close combat equipment when the brought out anti magic something that effects close ranges, it would make any summon-able close combat warriors quite weak.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 22, 2017, 01:37:50 am
Because in a way, the Crystalworks does have direct combat use - it makes our crystal weaponry (and caltrops) useful again. Which is like two designs in one!
Copying+pasting Magegems from its last post.
Design: Magegems
We've begun to explore the new areas of magic without the presence of our mages. Magegems are gems (or crystals) based on the anti-magic charm. But where the anti-magic charm actively absorbed ambient energy, a magegem does nothing of the sort. Energy can be actively input into the gem by a mage of any skill level, then the gem can be safely handled by anyone; mundane or not.
A magegem does nothing on its own other than storing energy. But when inserted into a compatible device, circuits on the device can actively draw energy from the magegem, allowing for items with much more drastic effects. Without a magegem, circuits are limited to sustaining low-power existing spells. But with magegems, circuits can actually cast spells and enact significant changes to the surrounding reality. HA1 and HCx series weapons will be able to fire without a mage casting the required spells. Steam engines will be able to start, stop, and last longer without a magician. And more!
Converting our current designs to work with magegems is a simple task. Most modern designs utilize circuits, which means all that has to be done is to configure the circuits to draw power from the magegem instead of a mage. Non-circuit based devices can also be converted fairly easily, as the lack of a circuit suggests making one wouldn't be a complicated task for that particular device. For example, the HA1 already utilizes circuits, so a slot can be very easily added to it and the circuits configured to draw energy from an input magegem.
Magegems at the moment are planned to be only distributed in bulk to sites making use of them, like artillery. But if our soldiers ever require them, they can be issued with a handful of magegems to use on the field to power equipment. Magegems are designed to be reusable - soldiers are instructed to safely store depleted magegems until an apprentice is available to recharge them. But even if there are no apprentices available, the energy stored in magegems should last for long enough. Artillery configured to use magegems, for example, may ultimately require apprentices to charge the magegems, but as each artillery piece won't require the constant attention of apprentices, a single apprentice can be assigned to many different artillery pieces with the simple task of recharging depleted magegems.
As a part of this design, HA1 Onslaughts and HC1-E's have been tweaked to accept magegems. Considerations were made to equip steam engines and other devices with compatibility for magegems, but that was deemed out of scope for now. Future iterations of those devices can be made compatible and the ease of converting likely means adding magegem compatibility can be done as part of a larger revision.
TL;DR: Magic storage. Potentially not immediately useful but has extreme number of possibilities. Mundane artillery, engines, etc. freeing our mages, Crystalworks, Magic Rifles, Grenades (Revision - add a priming mechanism to make them explode), and more.
Quote
Design
1 - Magegems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461591#msg7461591): Chiefwaffles
Meteor Design
1 - Tower of Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461555#msg7461555): Chiefwaffles
Post by: piratejoe on May 22, 2017, 01:41:20 am
We were making close combat equipment when the brought out anti magic something that effects close ranges, it would make any summon-able close combat warriors quite weak.I wasn't thinking of summoning warriors, I was more thinking elite soldiers who are Valkyries as in warrior women, but your idea isn't a bad one.
Post by: RAM on May 22, 2017, 02:03:25 am
I think that living crystals are just as capable of antimagic immunity as crystalworks, and are more plausible too, rather than machining crystals which we can already summon pre-formed... Honestly, I can't even see how crystalworks is supposed to ignore magic cancellation. There are very few sane ways for their magic to work, and the G.M. already told us, in this thread, that antimagic is religious, so putting a "will" into spells so that they can insist upon their own existence is a pretty strong counter to antimagic. Giving them magic batteres afterwards to give them resources wth which to maintain themselves would buff that no-end. And living crystals capable of spell-casting with the assistance of circuits would make the perfect crystal-tipped wands or crystalling quaterstaffs for our wizards.We were making close combat equipment when the brought out anti magic something that effects close ranges, it would make any summon-able close combat warriors quite weak.I wasn't thinking of summoning warriors, I was more thinking elite soldiers who are Valkyries as in warrior women, but your idea isn't a bad one.
But on the point of warrior-women elites? That should be doable with a revision I think. And we could use some skirmish defense, so we could train them as a night-specialised force...
Post by: evictedSaint on May 22, 2017, 02:08:42 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 22, 2017, 02:10:40 am
1.) Their life would be based on magic
2.) We'd be giving life to inanimate objects.
3.) How does them living help? Our wizards live and are still vulnerable to anti-magic.
Post by: RAM on May 22, 2017, 03:00:53 am
You're just overestimating living crystals.1: Exactly, they would be more capable of directly interfacing with magic.
1.) Their life would be based on magic
2.) We'd be giving life to inanimate objects.
3.) How does them living help? Our wizards live and are still vulnerable to anti-magic.
2: Yes? It doesn't seem all that off. Living weapons and such are not uncommon in fantasy and we can summon living wasps, and the circuits would help them with generating specific spell-effects so that we do nt have to teach them how to manifest magic in the mundane world.
3: It allows them to directly fight magical influnces and allows the magic itself to will itself into being. Our wizards face the problem of being disconnected from their spells and while great at manifesting magic, they are not actually inside the magic. Being inside the spells lets them directly control the magic in a purely magical sense, and evoke their own will for their own existence. Wizards are good at controlling magic to have a material presence and will the magic into being at a distance. Also, our wizards have, to my knowledge, only ever been affected when casting magic, not once it is already in effect(crystal weapons were periodically maintained rather than constantly enacted). It makes sense that the wizards have difficulty manifesting when the magic is already diminished. If living crystals worked then we could make wands that would contain a magical seed within them that would allow our wizards to cast my maintaining the wand.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 22, 2017, 09:13:57 am
Well, actually I think they're pretty good.
Quote
DesignI was more interested in the possibility of storing spells for mundane use, or making shells with stored spells in them, though.
2 - Magegems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461591#msg7461591): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
Meteor Design
1 - Spire of Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461555#msg7461555): Chiefwaffles
1 - Tower of Heresy: FallacyofUrist
You may want to revise your Spire of Frost idea a bit, though. As it is right now, it'll put our Taiga(Tundra)? into a new ice age.
On the other hand...
Meteor - Tower of Heresy: Using the meteor's unusual properties, we've created a tower that project a Heretic Field over the entire continent(though admittedly it's weaker the further it gets towards Moskurg). Here's the basic idea: we found a wavelength that corresponds to prayer. The Tower of Heresy emits a counter-wavelength that neutralizes that wavelength and induces headaches in the person who's praying. Seeing as Moskurgian anti magic works via religious zeal(we have confirmation of that now), this is going to be a major problem for them, especially if they're using their zeal for other spells as well.
Post by: Andres on May 22, 2017, 12:34:22 pm
Meteor - Spire of FrostThis is suicide. It's been stated that we don't use any frost towers whatsoever in the Taiga because doing so would wipe us out. The Spire of Frost further increases the cold of our current frost tower and puts it right in the capital of our country.
A super frost tower is not a bad concept, but with all due respect, it's not well developed in your design document.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 22, 2017, 12:35:32 pm
We found a powerful, malevolent life force inside the meteor and our wizards attempted to summon it into a form we could use. They succeed but failed to control it. Now it must be kept under constant mental beast control, only being released under the command of our grand wizard to viciously murder, mostly the enemy.
The creature takes the shape of a monstrous giant wolf composed of living shadows. It is resistant to even anti magic effectss, taking small damage but not being destroyed, and regenerating the damage by eating mages. Beware it's deadly fangs and claws! It can barely be controlled and is often left in it's cage formed from the meteoric metal, surrounded by anti magic crystals.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 22, 2017, 02:48:30 pm
I'm not that sold on it. Im just sick of the want for better frost towers and this would definitively end that as well as likely actually counter their counter.
Post by: helmacon on May 22, 2017, 04:49:36 pm
Crown of ash
To say it was a fallen star would imply it was pure, or holy, but stars are grown in the void itself. Divine perhaps, but holy was the wrong direction.
When our men first layed eyes on the meteor, they knew what it was. A group of Moskurg out riders had taken it before we arrived and they were making a break for friendly territory. We rode them down. Slaughtered them. When the last few threw down their arms and begged for mercy, our captain had their heads. But first he had their eyes, and their hands. There, as the blood flowed around them, the ground littered with corpses, there it sat. Untouched, clean on a bed of white cloth, it's color a dull dark red.
On the journey back, the captain who had found it had his tent burn down, with him inside it. They found the meteor unmarked in the center of the ashes. Cool to the touch, even as the coals glowed beside it.
They took it to the highest wizard in the land, who sought to study it.
When men first came to understand magic, they described it as another plane, sitting just above this one. Just out of sight, out of reach. When a mage casts a spell, he gathers his mental strength and punctures this barrier between the planes, and his spell is woven as he shapes the energy as it pours through into our world. Such was the basis for all known magic.
The meteorite was something different. The high wizard ordered a crown to be forged from it, by the best Smith of the land. It took three days of concentrated magical flames to heat it far enough to work with. When the Smith first struck the metal, a dark red blood began to flow forth from it. When it was measured, it was found to be 13 cups worth. One cup for each moskurg prisoner, killed and tourtered before it.
Magic comes from a higher plain, but this was something else. It was like magic, but it's plane sat below ours. It's energy's were foul and incomparable, alien and foreign to all we knew. Any who had tried to pierce this barrier before had found that it was their minds that were punctured and shattered. But this was something different. It's connection to this force, it was almost like something from the other side, trying to force its way through. The lower barrier was weak here, but it needed someone to reach out to it from this side.
When the crown was finished, it's color was a dark black. More than black, it was a pure absence. Small drops of blood still dripped occasionally from the tips.
The high wizard called 5 of his greatest and most trusted pupils into his chamber, and 60 of the high guards, clad in resplendent plate male and welding swords of shinning steel.
In the middle of a circle there, with his whole host arrayed, he took the six pointed crown, and placed it upon his head.
He cried out in pain and terror as his eyes melted and ran from their sockets. The crown sunk into his head, until the sound of metal scraping on bone was heard. His students cried out in fear, and they pulled forth amulets of anti magic, but the crystals exploded with such force that all his students were torn apart.
The guards cried out and drew their swords. They made as if to advance on the wizard, but he waved his hand and they each feel to the ground, contorted in pain and fear as each changed into a monster defined by their own worst sins.
The ashen king descended now with his host, and killed all the rest of his castle, magician and soldier and mage hunter alike.
There must have been something left of the old wizard in him, for he turned to the front then. He ignored his former allies, so long as they ignored him.
Now he fights at the front, unstoppable. His fellows shiver, thankful he is on their side, and quietly wonder what he shall do when the war is done...
Some say he had tapped the powers of hell itself, but they are wrong. This is not hell. This is the thing that killed hell, and rules in its stead.
TL, DR:
Essentially, it is using mind magic to flip the plane of magic the user draws from. It's very powerful, but somewhat uncontrollable. (The demon thing was just fluff)
All the users spells are inverted, more powerful versions of the original.
Ex: a regular wizard casts a fireball, and it's a yellow ball of flame that explodes outward.
The ashen king calls a fireball, and it's and enormous ball of grey flames, that implodes, sucking all nearby thing into it. The flames are impossible to put out, and release noxious fumes.
Post by: RAM on May 22, 2017, 04:54:43 pm
Quote
Design
2 - Magegems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461591#msg7461591): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
0 - Living crystal armour (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461546#msg7461546):
0 - (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.):
0 - (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.):
Meteor Design
1 - Spire of Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461555#msg7461555): Chiefwaffles
0 - Large ice lizard with wings (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461546#msg7461546):
0 - Fair-day cage (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461546#msg7461546):
1 - Tower of Heresy (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461776#msg7461776): FallacyofUrist
0 - Demon Wolf From The Dark Heavens (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461923#msg7461923):
0 - Crown of ash (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7462250#msg7462250):
0 - Gilded Guardian Gilda (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7462258#msg7462258):
0 - (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.):
0 - (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.):
Gilded Guardian GildaSo... I might be pushing things here to call a champion a national effort and increasing our national effort capacity by one instead of making a new thing, but valkyrie...
We have two national efforts, lets get some more effort to national with!
Gilda's brother always dreamed of joining the academy, learning magic, and exploding Moskurgers, and she always supported these noble dreams. Trajically, while ploughing the frozen fields together, her brother suddenly died of exposure the day before he could apply. Yearning to see her brother's dreams fulfilled, young Gilda donned a disguise and entered the academy in guise of her beloved brother, hoping to bring glory to his name. At the acedmy she spent 2-4 seasons engaged in various hilarious and dramatic hijinks.
She gained the favour of an enigmatic mystic talking owl. Found it to be entirely far too enigmatic so she broke its legs and tied it to a stick. It was much less enigmatic after that and behaved really well so she rebroke its legs and splinted them properly and it has since learned to crudely hobble around under its own power...
She met an annoying boy, had a long string of arguments and abusive exchanges, fell in love as destiny decreed, saw him mind controlled in a Mosskurger scheme, promptly ripped his head off with her bare hands set his corpse on fire, threw it from a precipitous cliff, and then jumped after it, landing atop the remains and sending the charred gore across the landscape. You can never be too careful with Mosskurgers...
Of course she had an endless series of near-misses with her disguise. Constantly using the wrong chamber pot. Suffering assorted side-effects from hair-growth spells she used to fake stubble while on field expeditions. Causing consternation amongst new arrivals who found his/her figure strangely alluring... OF course, this all ended in the series finale when she used her ultimate magic before the whole assembly to save the academy from a Giant all-knowing betentacled Mosskurger mind-parasite...
Speaking of her ultimate magic, she spontaneously developed a unique form of crystal manipulation. This takes the form of various physical rituals that look almost like dancing, accompanied by various crystal formations forming and shattering that sound almost like some sort of personal backing music, and then there is the strangely unnoticed crystallisation of the surrounding time which causes the rest of existence to fragmentally stop for the 15-50 seconds it takes for her to perform any given ritual that makes it seem for all the world as though everyone just stands around and lets her do it...
The effects of these rituals is to cover her in various crystal formations that vary starting with a thin covering over her skin(and forming a miniskirt for some reason) which offers protection and empowerment as she can magically compel the crystal to move with more force than her muscles alone. The most advanced form includes a summoned winged horse, wings of her own, a large ornate headdress, numerous gem-like formations, and all manner of other additions leading her to appear just like a grand valkyrie of legends hurling crystal spears around the battlefield. All of her crystals have a unique golden tint to them and produce a subtle glow.
New! After her tragic final battle, she was mortally wounded, her magic was in disarray, and she was rushed to the experimental laboratories... Instead of examining her bizarre magic, they decidedto rebuild her, stronger, faster... better! The meteoric metal was magically melted and quickly fused with her body along her magical presence. While her magical ability had been altered, rendering her unable to use traditional magic, her raw power was not diminished, and she could just as easily power great magical constructs. Where her traditional spells had faded, she instead grew massive wings of metal that could bear her aloft, a near impenetrable coating of light metal(that acts just like a Faraday Cage where lightning is concerned!), the ability to hurl an unending supply of great meteoric spears from the sky(which sadly rust into base iron ore over a few short minutes.), and a bizarre connection to a metal shrine left over from her conversion, from which she may rise to battle for all time regardless of any mortal woes that she suffers. Alas, suffering from her lost vanity, she only does battle at night, soaring over the day's battlefield like some sort of messenger to the dead...
But generally she just sits on a building making things cold, or waves a fire-stick around...
And no, I don't feel guilty about proposing a magical girl.
Or someone could suggest valkyrie power-armour for Myark...
Post by: Andres on May 22, 2017, 06:12:45 pm
Essentially gives us another tower of frost, which is good but not great. The real value is in its concentration effect.
As a Tower of Forever Frost decreases temperature by 1 in an 80km radius.
Halve the radius and it decreases temperature by 2 in a 40 km radius.
Halve the radius and it decreases temperature by 3 in a 20 km radius.
Halve the radius and it decreases temperature by 4 in a 10 km radius.
Halve the radius and it decreases temperature by 5 in a 5 km radius.
This will make Myark walking death. No enemy can fight him in melee and hope to survive - he'll just freeze the air around him cold enough that only an Arstotzkan can survive. Even against armies this is powerful, as a temperature drop of 3 - a significant drop - still covers 20 kilometres, which is a lot of ground.
Quote
Design
3 - Magegems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461591#msg7461591): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Andres
Meteor Design
1 - Spire of Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461555#msg7461555): Chiefwaffles
1 - Tower of Heresy (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461776#msg7461776): FallacyofUrist
1 - Staff of Forever Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7462353#msg7462353): Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: andrea on May 22, 2017, 06:19:13 pm
Orb of anti-divinationAs we discovered during the battle for its acquisition, this material interferes mightily with any attempt to scry , divine or otherwise magically determining the position of an object or person. Using our magic expertise, its effects were amplified to cover an entire battlefield, in which the enemy lucky strike will accurately hit... somewhere close the intended target, as it can't pinpoint our officers anymore.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 22, 2017, 06:39:23 pm
It should definitely be feasible. It's an upscaled (non-mini) Tower of Frost + avoidance of certain areas.
Post by: RAM on May 22, 2017, 06:40:13 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 22, 2017, 06:43:00 pm
We're masters in frost-based spells. We're not masters in invoking wind via fine manipulation of heat.
Post by: Andres on May 22, 2017, 07:24:04 pm
I've added a bit to the Spire of Frost. It now doesn't affect places where it'd be harmful to us (Taiga, agriculture, civilians, etc.) via the fluff reason of circuitry finetuning our mages' power.Not a bad design, but I worry the avoidance clause may make things a bit tricky. It would have to avoid three regions worth of area (west, central, and east taiga) while still trying to increase the intensity and drastically increase the range. I myself would also prefer to give Myark a proper weapon for him, something that'll let him defeat Al-Mutriqa.
It should definitely be feasible. It's an upscaled (non-mini) Tower of Frost + avoidance of certain areas.
My preference remains with my design, though I do acknowledge yours as worthy.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on May 22, 2017, 08:38:04 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 23, 2017, 12:39:10 pm
I'm thinking these possibilities:
1.) Fixing Magegems
2.) Fitting Magegems onto existing designs (if the design doesn't do this)
3.) Improving Falcons (bigger, more lethal, etc. - important to completely prevent their cart pets from doing any damage)
4.) Cheaper HA1s - Their sparseness is very obviously hurting us.
5.) And a lot more.
Post by: helmacon on May 23, 2017, 01:05:05 pm
I'm down with mage gems for this design phase, unless I hear anything better.
As for the meteor, I haven't heard any ideas I really like so far (even my own) so i'm gonna throw something else out there.
Beacon of magic. A small staff made of the meteor metal, it responds strongly to magic of any kind. In the hands of a very talented mage, it can be tuned to specific spells, drawing the relevant magic towards itself.
We can use this to direct our frost towers (tune it to the frost towers and put it in the area where we want it cold), or use the lucky strike against them. (tune it to lucky strike and put it in a bunker. Ballista are all drawn towards the bunker and not the intended target.)
It's a pretty basic concept, not really classifiable as any "field" of magic, so it would probably just be a standard roll (with the innate +2), but it would let us control the engagement as we like in any front we deploy it on.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 23, 2017, 02:03:48 pm
"Anti-Magic" is a bit of a misnomer, when it comes to our anti-magic gems. They don't stop magic, exactly - they absorb magic in the surrounding area and convert the magical energy into a harmless, annoying hum. It stands to reason, then, that if we make it stop humming, the gem will store the energy instead.
We still run into the same problem with exploding gemstones, but we've pretty much hammered it out. Depending on the size and quality of the stone we can empirically figure out how much energy it can safely store - a bit of clever magic shows this as a glow in the crystal that diminishes as the magic is used up. This glowing display is represented as a "fluid" that drains down, giving a quick visual display of how much energy is left.
Magegems are quantified by size; A is currently the largest we can manufacture, AA is slightly smaller, and AAA is the smallest we can make. An A magegem could concievably power a couple flare spells, although smaller gems hooked in series could allow more continuous effect to persist for longer before they're exhausted.
Magegems do not passively pull from the air like anti-magic gems, but are also immune to anti-magic gem effects. Each gem must be charged by a mage over a period of an hour or so before they're at full capacity, but can be recharged once spent. They are fully compatible with your solid-gold circuitry, and can be slotted in and out as needed.
AAA gems are Cheap.
AA gems are Expensive.
A gems are Very Expensive.
Post by: Andres on May 23, 2017, 02:14:41 pm
3.) Improving Falcons (bigger, more lethal, etc. - important to completely prevent their cart pets from doing any damage)Making them bigger would require a design as it would require an entirely new spell, but we might be able to increase lethality in a Revision phase if we give them the same fire damage as our wasps. Ultimately however, I think there are better things we can do with a Revision.
4.) Cheaper HA1s - Their sparseness is very obviously hurting us.No, it very obviously isn't. The two big problems - which were explicitly mentioned, by the way - were that they're difficult to target and that they don't have exploding ammunition. It's the sparseness of the HC1-Es that are hurting us, and IIRC this has also been explicitly mentioned.
It should be noted that a big part of the expense of the HC1-E comes from the gold etching. Making that cheaper might make other things using that gold etching cheaper as well, such as our steam engine.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 23, 2017, 02:19:22 pm
Post by: Andres on May 23, 2017, 02:20:53 pm
Your HC1-E's are merely Expensive now, and about as plentiful as would be practical. Making them Cheap would mean you have one for every mage, apprentice, and wizard in your army, but some would sit by idly because you have some mages operating your larger HA1's.Ah. The list in the update still has them as Very Expensive. Revising the gold etching would still make the steam engine cheaper, though, right?
Post by: evictedSaint on May 23, 2017, 02:22:10 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 23, 2017, 02:28:55 pm
I'll make some actual revision proposals later today. First one will probably be refitting artillery to work with Magegems. Really, I'm mostly open in regards to revisions this time.
Though I don't think increasing the size of he Falcons would be a design. Our spells already modify the falcon's mind. We just need it to modify its body as wel. The size increase would be something like 50-100% - enough to make them big and thus more dangerous but definitely not notably giant. Still within the realm of realism for birds.
EDIT: Also cheaper circuits is a good thing. Not able to actually look at it now but it could cheapen HA1s and steam engines. And maybe we should do the meteor design before the revision.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 23, 2017, 02:45:43 pm
Our Magegems are proof of amazing Arstotzkan engineering. Now the only remaining step is to fit it to our existing designs.
We incorporate slots for Magegems in the designs of the HA1, the HC1-E, and our steam engines. In steam engines our Magegems simply maintain the spells running he engine. As our circuitry already does most of the work, the required Magegems can be hopefully AAA size.
HC1-Es are fitted with AA Magegems. The fitted Magegems will allow apprentices to manage their time recharging the Magegems of many cannons at once, allowing our mages to spend much more time in other positions.
HA1s are fitted with A magegems, allowing for one wizard to manage more artillery at once.
TL;DR: Make our artillery and boats compatible with Magegems. Allowing many more wizards in the field.
It's really easy since our Magegems are already compatible with our circuitry. We've already used circuitry to passively maintain spells (steam engine) so that's not really a problem. Just make slots for the Magegems, connect them to existing circuits.
I'm not too sold on it though. I think Magegem fitting would be better done as a supplementary part of revisions or designs for new things. Like include Magegems when we make Crystalclads or improve our artillery in any way.
Lemme know if I missed any designs that'd use Magegems.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 23, 2017, 02:52:06 pm
PSF's would require several A gems each, and your HA1 operates off of three simultaneous PSF blasts at once.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 23, 2017, 02:53:54 pm
Scratch Magegem fitting then. I'd say a simple revision for increasing Magegem power then.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 23, 2017, 03:02:17 pm
Our mathematicians are tasked with optimizing the energy storage of our Magegems without increasing the size or expense.
The material can be tweaked to optimize the wavelengths of magic it keeps stored. More magic can be "fit" into the same space without compromising the gem's integrity. Cheap and small or tiny "heat sinks" can be attached to allow more power stored without any kind of risk of explosion. (And the heat sinks would be small enough that there's no risk of them independently failing.)
These modifications would be made to every tier of Magegem. As a result, every type of Magegem would store more without increases in cost.
Alternatively, we can decrease their expense by making it out of a more stable crystal.
Post by: Andres on May 23, 2017, 03:04:38 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Andres on May 23, 2017, 03:07:31 pm
Post by: RAM on May 23, 2017, 03:29:10 pm
We distribute heavy ball-bearings and standard ammunition-backings to our guns in addition to conventional ammunition. Wizards use their wealth of crystal knowledge, along with the abundance of bullet-shaped examples to summon crystal shells. These shells last for a very specific time that can be measured by expending a ma'ge'gem, summoning something else as a timer, or just using an hourglass. The shells spend a while in the air, and it only really matters that they are in the air when the shell expires, so timing shoiuld not be an issue.
It is a crystal, filled with metal balls, backed with a metal plate. The rifling effect makes the balls scatter when the crystal subsides, scattering shrapnel around an area.
It is, of course, horribly inaccurte, but we can't see what we are shooting at, or it is high-speed carpets at long range, so...
Brace for them to use electricity against our birds...
Post by: evictedSaint on May 23, 2017, 03:37:25 pm
Wait, GM, do we get two Revisions this turn for getting the meteor iron? It did mention a Revision Credit.
Sorry - that was another mistake on my part. The initial idea was to let the winner Revise the ore into something that they already had, but I decided it would be more useful and exciting to design it into something new.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 23, 2017, 03:48:28 pm
Our current gold circuits are expensive, heavy, and unreliable.
The purpose of using gold is to "hold" the magic in our designs, but crystal can do that too as it's an inherently magical material. Crystal is summoned over our circuits by wizards instead of a long and expensive process of pouring over gold.
The crystal is sustained by the constant magic flowing through it, and doesn't require maintaining by a wizard.
As crystal is a very light material, our circuits' weight is heavily reduced. Crystal's strength ensures it can't melt or be degraded. And in the rare case of damage, any wizard can repair t in the field by summoning more crystal.
The resulting circuits are much cheaper, reliable, and lighter. Our engines, cannons and artillery become lighter, meaning our boats are more durable (not sitting as deep in the water) and/or can hold more weaponry. Our HA1s can fire faster as the circuit material no longer melts with high fire rates. Our circuits become much cheaper and designs making heavy use of it (namely HA1s or even steam engines) become cheaper as well.
And any future circuit-using designs will also share these benefits.
TL;DR
- Increases fire rate + reliability of HA1s (gold circuitry melts when firing too fast)
- Decreases expense of HA1 + future circuit designs (HA1 uses tons of gold circuitry and gold is expensive. Maybe expense of HC1-E too, but it uses less and its expense didn't change when we added gold to it.)
- Decreases weight of steam engine, HA1, HC1-E, and anything else using gold circuitry. (Gold is heavy. Remove gold then designs' weight decrease.)
- EDIT: Cheaper Crystalworks (Edited in after Crystalworks design was rolled. Crystalworks uses a lot of circuits. Cheaper circuits means cheaper crystalworks.)
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 23, 2017, 04:28:26 pm
Quote
Revisions:I'm down for that. We're going to be able to spam our artillery even more now. Magic items are the future.
0 - Magegem Refitting: 0
0 - Higher Powered Magegems: 0
2 - Crystal Circuits: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
As for the meteor... two more ideas. One hilarious one, one that the GM probably won't allow but would be awesome if it was, and one practical one.
I miscounted.
Spoiler: Hilarious (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Unlikely to Succeed but Awesome (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Practical (click to show/hide)
Post by: RAM on May 23, 2017, 04:49:40 pm
Quote
0 Magegem Refitting (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7463177#msg7463177):
0 Hgher Powered Magegems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7463211#msg7463211):
0 Crystal Cartridges (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7463248#msg7463248):
0 Crystal Circuits (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7463272#msg7463272):
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 23, 2017, 04:54:02 pm
Quote
0 Magegem Refitting (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7463177#msg7463177):
0 Hgher Powered Magegems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7463211#msg7463211):
1 Crystal Cartridges (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7463248#msg7463248): RAM
2 Crystal Circuits (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7463272#msg7463272): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
Post by: evictedSaint on May 23, 2017, 05:52:49 pm
Crystals can be used for circuitry, it seems - they're just not a very good choice.
We can conjure crystals at very precise sizes, angles, and thicknesses thanks to our heavy investment into the stuff, and though the magical energy can flow through the hair-width crystal structure under correct circumstances, it invariably breaks. Running the circuit produces a very small amount of heat, and for a malleable metal like gold that's fine - it can flex very slightly as it expands and contracts. Normally it's not enough to disrupt the circuit, but for a ridged crystal structure even a slight amount of force is enough to induce hairline fractures that disrupt the flow of magic. So, we've discovered we can use crystals to direct the flow of magic, but it's not effective to use it for magical circuitry, let alone circuitry on devices like the HA1 or the steam recycler.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 23, 2017, 05:56:14 pm
Great. Of course.
But we can use crystal for wiring now. Just not circuitry.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 23, 2017, 06:07:27 pm
Add whatever designs you had before into here! Or... I'll do it myself. Fine.
Quote
Meteor Design:
0 - Catgirl Assassins(Hilarious):
0 - Maxim Gun(Improbable):
1 - Aetheric Staff(Practical): FallacyofUrist
1 - Beacon of Magic: helmacon
0 - Tower of Heresy:
1 - Demon Wolf From The Dark Heavens: VoidSlayer
0 - Crown of Ash:
1 - Gilded Guardian Gilda: RAM
1 - Staff of Forever Frost: Andres
0? - Orb of Divination: Andrea?
0? - Orb of Anti-Divination: Andrea?
1 - Spire of Frost: Chiefwaffles
0 - Large Ice Lizard With Wings:
0 - Fair-Day Cage:
... I'm beginning to think we may have a problem coming to a consensus on this.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 23, 2017, 06:08:42 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 23, 2017, 06:23:46 pm
To reiterate: are we ever going to be able to come to a consensus on this? Is Myark going to have to pick from among our proposals?
Post by: evictedSaint on May 23, 2017, 06:25:47 pm
... I'm beginning to think we may have a problem coming to a consensus on this.
Haha, yeah, this specific instance. You're having trouble coming to a consensus this one time. This is the first time. Haha.
To reiterate: are we ever going to be able to come to a consensus on this? Is Myark going to have to pick from among our proposals?
If you don't come to a concensus in the next hour or so, I'll just cherry-pick my favorite (regardless of how effective or difficult it might be)
Post by: helmacon on May 23, 2017, 06:40:50 pm
Could we do something like crystal lenses then?
The discharge of a mage gem focused through a series of crystal lenses to a small put powerful stream?
We could make some badass rifles with that. AAA mage gems as bullets, some sort of catalyst, (maybe just shattering the mage gem?) and then pushing it down a tube with crystal lenses to shoot a concentrated beam of magic!
...actualy, why couldn't we just do that with normal lenses? Probably more durable than the crystal anyways.
so we could use crystal circuitry for something like... oh! holy shit! anti-magic landmines! anti-magic crystals tend to explode when they get magic, right? A small pressure trigger completes a circuit connecting a mage gem battery to an anti-magic crystal! Yay! landmines!
...wait, that dosent actualy need crystal circuits either. huh. Not sure what we could use it for. It just seems like kind of a dead end idea. Doesn't have any advantage over anything else we could use. Not wireing either, cause it still breaks and becomes useless.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 23, 2017, 06:41:55 pm
Quote
Meteor DesignI added the links from those that already had links in the quote.
1 - Spire of Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461555#msg7461555): Chiefwaffles
1 - Tower of Heresy (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461776#msg7461776): FallacyofUrist
1 - Staff of Forever Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7462353#msg7462353): Andres
0 - Catgirl Assassins(Hilarious):
0 - Maxim Gun(Improbable):
1 - Aetheric Staff(Practical): FallacyofUrist
1 - Beacon of Magic: helmacon
1 - Demon Wolf From The Dark Heavens: VoidSlayer
0 - Crown of Ash:
1 - Gilded Guardian Gilda: RAM
0? - Orb of Divination: Andrea?
0? - Orb of Anti-Divination: Andrea?
0 - Large Ice Lizard With Wings:
0 - Fair-Day Cage:
Anyways. I've redone Crystalworks to be concise and ready for next-turn.
Future Design: Crystalworks
Crystal is an amazing material sadly of little use to us currently, but we can fix that. The Crystalworks uses new techniques to mass produce cheap crystal invulnerable to the pathetic anti-magic utilized by Moskurg "wizards".
The Crystalworks is a large building - somewhat like a warehouse - with a high roof and wide while quite long.
At the center of the Crystalworks lies the "power room" where extreme amounts of A-size Magegems are connected in series. This room provides powers for the many power-hungry circuits across the Crystalworks. Thanks to the discoveries from our
We realized early on that having one circuit summoning precise crystal designs is inefficient and wasteful. Instead, we use "conveyor belts" of a some kind of fabric or cloth-like material strong enough to hold the contents on top being artificially moved by a steam engine.
In the first part of the Crystalworks, we have large amounts of circuits constantly summoning new unformed slabs of crystal. These hunks of crystal are split across other conveyor belts moving across the rest of the factory where other circuits gradually reform the crystal into different shapes, like sections of armor plating for ships or people, axes, wiring, and more!
New lines of circuits and conveyor belts can be added to the factory as needed as we design more crystal-based items.
Perhaps the most important aspect of the Crystalworks is the nature of the crystal. It turns out that when a human summons crystal, they "spend" a bit of their total magic potential and put it into the crystal. This magical energy can't stay outside of its natural host (the summoning wizard) for too long, and thus eventually returns, dispelling the crystal. Maintaining it simply resets the timer by replacing the "old" energy with "new" energy. The method of production using circuits simply creates the energy without forcing it to rely on "borrowed" magic, meaning the crystal lasts forever. This means that the crystal also can't be dispelled by Moskurg anti-magic because there's no magic to dispel in the new crystal.
It turns out this "assembly line" method of creating crystal items is much more energy-efficient than spending effort and time summoning one perfect item at a time. This plus the decline in required personnel means we can produce crystal at a much greater rate than before. Things such as crystal axes almost pour out of the Crystalworks and into crates designated for shipping onto the battlefield, to replace the old dispellable crystal!
TL;DR Mass produce anchored crystal. Allows us to more easily manage expense in future crystal designs and not worry about dispelling.
How?
Just expense is something that could be done in a revision; the point of the Crystalworks is crystal expense, infrastructure (so we can get bonuses to expense of crystal-using designs), and most importantly, crystal permanence. In other words, this design just makes cheap anchored crystals. That shouldn't be impossible in a design. It's not like we're trying to antimagic-proof our mages. We're just making permanent crystal.
Also, Evicted, about how big are the A-size magegems?
Post by: evictedSaint on May 23, 2017, 06:45:02 pm
AAA is closer to about the size of a disposable zippo lighter.
Post by: RAM on May 23, 2017, 06:48:21 pm
Post by: helmacon on May 23, 2017, 06:53:51 pm
You know how we could fix that though?
Regenerative Crystal
We can create crystals that, when damaged, use a minute amount of the energy passing through them to repair themselves. This also means we can use charged mage gems to quickly repair damaged crystal equipment (such as ship plating or weapon systems.) by transferring the stored charge into them.
imagine. Our boat gets hit by a ballista bolt. It got a giant hole in it, and starts taking on water. Suddenly, a crew member rams a A battery into the thing, and the hole closes up. (Only the size of a soda can. We could create Super-A batteries and store them by the dozens on ships for emergency repairs.!)
Post by: evictedSaint on May 23, 2017, 06:57:40 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 23, 2017, 06:59:08 pm
So, we've discovered we can use crystals to direct the flow of magic, but it's not effective to use it for magical circuitry, let alone circuitry on devices like the HA1 or the steam recycler.We can use it for wiring. Just not something as precise as circuitry. Think about it this way - you can't use cables to make the kinds of circuits found in your computer, but they are great for transferring large amounts of power.
@Evicted: Aah. I was expecting something bigger. What effect does stacking them (multiple in the same design) have on Expense?
@Everyone:
Meteor Design: Staff of Frostflame (Better name appreciated)
Myark needs his own weapon. The Wand of Fireballs is obsolete. Our Towers of Frost are simply boring.
Someone of Myark's skill needs a matching weapon.
The Staff of Frostflame can influence an entire battlefield, manipulating the temperature as the holder pleases. Myark can hold the influence of an entire Tower of Frost over a theatre or even heat up the theatre if the user was crazy. It can cause a small patch of land (like a couple feet) to instantly burst into flames or freeze over. Myark could freeze someone or set them on fire. He can extinguish a fire by simply freezing it. He can look across the battlefield and set Moskurg ballistas on fire without using the short-ranged fireball. He can freeze distant portions of land. A meteor core inside the staff amplifies the already insane levels of magical powers from Myark to the degree needed to power the staff.
Myark, with this weapon, can control temperature itself.
TL;DR: The Staff of Forever Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7462353#msg7462353) but with a heat component.
Meteor Design: Myark's Falcon
A regular Hunter Falcon is no good for Myark. He needs a familiar befitting his status.
Myark's Falcon is a falcon enhanced with the meteor. Our best falcon specimen is taken, and Myark himself enacts the process using our supply of meteor ore adjacent to him and the falcon.
The Falcon's bones are enhanced (not replaced) with the strength (and lightness) of crystal. Their loyalty and even intelligence are drastically improved. The Falcon's eyesight is improved, and their talons are made out of solid crystal. They can fly at insane speeds to insane heights. The crystal is "powered" by the Falcon's very lifeforces and as such isn't dispellable, just as a human isn't dispellable.
Myark, through the process, will even share a link with the Falcon, being able to get a basic sense of what the Falcon is seeing, and as such can use it as his own flying scout. The Falcon understands complex orders from Myark and can execute them with precision.
A side effect of the process makes the falcon notably (but not that much) bigger than the regular falcon. The Falcon can still just barely be perched on Myark, though!
Sometimes, an apprentice can swear he sees Myark conversing tactics with his falcon, but he denies such claims.
TL;DR: Myark's very own Falcon. He shares a kind of link with it and can use it to scout and extend his vision. It's much more intelligent and can follow complex orders. It's stronger, more lethal, and faster.
I really like this idea. Ambitious, but worth a NE.
Quote
Meteor DesignVote for Myark's Falcon! Or anything, really. We just need a consensus.
1 - Myark's Falcon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7463530#msg7463530): Chiefwaffles
1 - Spire of Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461555#msg7461555): Chiefwaffles
1 - Tower of Heresy (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461776#msg7461776): FallacyofUrist
1 - Staff of Forever Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7462353#msg7462353): Andres
0 - Catgirl Assassins(Hilarious):
0 - Maxim Gun(Improbable):
1 - Aetheric Staff(Practical): FallacyofUrist
1 - Beacon of Magic: helmacon
1 - Demon Wolf From The Dark Heavens: VoidSlayer
0 - Crown of Ash:
1 - Gilded Guardian Gilda: RAM
0? - Orb of Divination: Andrea?
0? - Orb of Anti-Divination: Andrea?
0 - Large Ice Lizard With Wings:
0 - Fair-Day Cage:
ALSO: Idea for later, after crystalworks - Magical power grid. We create a central "power plant" and connect it to the city with crystal wiring. I don't know what the benefits are yet other than powering multiple Crystalworks-like buildings at once, but it seems like it could be useful.
Post by: helmacon on May 23, 2017, 07:05:27 pm
Quote
We can use it for wiring. Just not something as precise as circuitry. Think about it this way - you can't use cables to make the kinds of circuits found in your computer, but they are great for transferring large amounts of power.hmm... sounds plausible I guess, but I think we should ask EV for some conformation.
@EV Can we use crystal as heavy duty cabling for magic energy?
Post by: evictedSaint on May 23, 2017, 07:11:46 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 23, 2017, 07:12:22 pm
Post by: RAM on May 23, 2017, 07:28:47 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 23, 2017, 07:30:58 pm
Even with the meteor, Gilda's the very definition of "overambitious".
Vote for my stuff instead, people.
Post by: helmacon on May 23, 2017, 07:34:02 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 23, 2017, 07:36:16 pm
I think my Aetheric Staff is better than the Frostflame Staff. Anti-magic and spell amplification versus more of what we already have. And while Myark's Falcon may be nice... it's not really flashy or powerful or battlefield effecting. I think Myark would like the Aetheric Staff better.
I fail to see how your falcon design incorporates the meteor at all...Also this.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 23, 2017, 07:36:51 pm
It's not really possible without the meteor. The linking effect would have to be painstakingly designed and incorporated into the spell, and the other benefits of the design would have to be independently considered and fit into the spell without making it unfeasible for anyone, even Myark, to cast it.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 23, 2017, 07:38:06 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 23, 2017, 07:41:39 pm
Considering Crystalclads are my number one want for the future (they're 80% of my reasoning for the crystalworks), something like a battleship would be outclassed by that. If we were to make something like a "crystalclad but better", most of our "work" in the design would go into the parts that would incorporate a crystalclad. So if we were to do something like the Crystalclad in the future, then we'd have to reinvent the wheel and re-learn how to do the parts done in the design. Sure, the design may still be a bit better than a Crystalclad but it wouldn't be worth the one-time-only meteor design action.
TL;DR: We want to use the meteor design to make something that remains useful and that we won't eventually do with regular designs/revisions.
Also, -1 to all catgirl-related designs ever.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 23, 2017, 07:43:04 pm
Post by: RAM on May 23, 2017, 07:49:30 pm
Okay. So what makes the Falcon a worthy design? Couldn't we do so much more with the meteor? Heck, couldn't we make a battleship out of it that would dominate the seas for us and let us get that surprise deployment bonus?We probably don't want to invest many designs into a flagship, so this is actually a really good idea, but I mad heart valkyrie, so too bad so sad.
The flacon really seems like a bust. We want to improve scouting and such anyways. If only we had vultures then we could easily train them to circle over our doomed opponents from insane altitudes...
Gilda, on the other hand, is a champion. She could at least get a funky flagship working at half power. Maybe not full fighting strength but at least getting it out and floating. Even if she is just some decrepit old hag who can;t leave the homeland, at least she serves as an inspiration to our future valkyries who will not have any formal experience from her but at least have something to live up to.
Oh noes! I just realised. If another champion is too ambitious, then she might need to be 'powered' by Myark...
Why not have a dragon instead?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 23, 2017, 08:08:35 pm
We've successfully tamed and weaponized Falcons using a simple spell. But what if we wanted to make a true mount for Myark to ride into battle?
It turns out, this can be done via the Meteor. Through a very involved process, we can acquire an "extract" from the meteor. Introduction of this extract into the body of an eagle introduces a very curious effect. The body becomes almost... malleable. The simplest of spells can be used to make serious modifications to the eagle. Of course, we only have enough extract for a small amount of eagles, and have deemed the best method is to have Myark be the only eagle rider and keep the rest of the extract for the occasional casualty.
Once the extract is ingested by an eagle, simple variants of the spell used to tame falcons can be invoked upon the eagle. The first step in the process is size. We increase the size of the eagle to massive proportions (speaking of which, we require a cleaning team to Test Lab #3. A test creature got a little too big for its confinements). By the time we're done with this step, the eagle is huge. It's big enough and has enough strength to fit several riders and Myark. With careful considerations surrounding the securing of the weapon, we could even attach a single HC1-E or weapon of similar weight to the eagle and a small amount of ammunition.
The next step is "binding" crystal plating to the eagle. We summon a thin crystal plating around most parts of the eagle, which, thanks to the malleability afforded by the extract, binds to the eagle. This crystal plate is still vulnerable to dispellment, but once the first plate is attached, the crystal can be re-summoned at any point.
Finally, we bond Myark and the eagle. This is based on a kind of mutual version of the taming spell we developed a while back, taking advantage of the extract. This binding allows Myark to exert fine control over the movements of the Eagle, and to call it to him at any location.
The result is a fierce battle-mount for Myark to ride into battle, and a platform for mages or even a HC1-E to fire upon Moskurger forces from the air.
TL;DR: A heavy armored flying mount for Myark and some wizard buddies/a HC1-E.
My new favorite design.
Quote
Meteor DesignVote for the Battle-Eagle!
1 - Battle Eagle (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7463614#msg7463614): Chiefwaffles
1 - Spire of Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461555#msg7461555): Chiefwaffles
1 - Tower of Heresy (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461776#msg7461776): FallacyofUrist
1 - Staff of Forever Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7462353#msg7462353): Andres
0 - Catgirl Assassins(Hilarious):
0 - Maxim Gun(Improbable):
1 - Aetheric Staff(Practical): FallacyofUrist
1 - Beacon of Magic: helmacon
1 - Demon Wolf From The Dark Heavens: VoidSlayer
0 - Crown of Ash:
1 - Gilded Guardian Gilda: RAM
0? - Orb of Divination: Andrea?
0? - Orb of Anti-Divination: Andrea?
0 - Large Ice Lizard With Wings:
0 - Fair-Day Cage:
Post by: helmacon on May 23, 2017, 08:26:05 pm
It might be boring, but we could use the meteor to create valuable infrastructure.
Meteoric Generator
The nature of the meteor is to act as a conduit for magical energy. As such, it is always putting off a large amount of this energy. In the proper conditions, we can siphon off this energy for any number of purposes. Currently, it is only being funneled into additional mage gems, but could theoretically be used to power any number of magical industries. (Think, powered Crystal works. Industrialization!)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 23, 2017, 08:29:20 pm
I do want to develop an eagle HWP but even then, it'd basically require a specially-designed HCx as a HC1-E would be waay too heavy.
I kind of like the Meteoric Generator but it just seems... not national effort enough. It seems useful for the future but I want something for Myark to use! I want a mount! A weapon! Armor!
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 23, 2017, 08:41:23 pm
Meteor Design: Meteoric Generator
We've discovered something amazing about the meteor: It generates magical power. By itself.
We've taken the meteor chunks and are storing them in a building in the center of Arstotzka. The building is filled with magical circuits monitoring and stabilizing the flow of magical energy outwards from and inside the meteor. The actual meteor lies inside a transparent chamber at the center of the building. Thanks to our modifications to "hook up" the meteor to the rest of the building, the meteor outputs a noticeable blue glow, making the need for torches and the like redundant.
The building - the Meteoric Generator - can be connected to any other building or emplacement by crystal cabling. Generally, the building should be close by to cut on the labor and time in creating the crystal cabling, but theoretically as long as it's connected, it could be everywhere. The Meteoric Generator also makes use of circuits to be able to charge Magegems instead of draining them, though we recommend putting these "chargers" in buildings and structures connected to the Meteoric Generator, in order to avoid having to walk to the generator and come inside (a security risk!) in order to charge Magegems.
The Meteoric Generator makes anything connected to it able to magically operate independent of wizard-provided power. The theoretical crystalworks could use as much magical power required without any kind of wizard interaction being required!
NEXT STEP: MAGICAL LIGHTS. We gotta aim to win that civilian intermission. Lights and stoves in every home!
Post by: evictedSaint on May 23, 2017, 08:46:11 pm
Post by: helmacon on May 23, 2017, 09:12:57 pm
Consider my vote to be for CWs meteoric generator design.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 23, 2017, 09:16:23 pm
But yeah. I'll start editing in new things again, especially considering the amount of particularly passionate people seems to have died down a bit.
And just general reminder that I'm not necessarily voting for the Meteoric Generator. I'm just not sure if it's worth it. It'd power things like the Crystalworks, yeah, but what would that really benefit? How many designs are we going to have that would use the Meteoric Generator, and how would they actually mechanically benefit from it other than removing a sentence of fluff about it removing Magegems?
It's cool, I just don't see how it'd actually benefit us.
Post by: RAM on May 23, 2017, 09:20:20 pm
Post by: Andres on May 23, 2017, 09:24:59 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 23, 2017, 09:40:06 pm
I want something unique and in an area we do not currently have a lot of designs in, but have some experience.
Summoning, beast control, crystal shields, plants of some kind.
What about this:
Mad Horse:
This wand of meteoric Iron creates a wave of magic that works similar to the falcon training spell, but works on horses. It also makes them go crazy and attack people and siege equipment until they are put down, instead of training them.
Look, okay, I know this is weird but it turns one of their strengths into a weakness.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 23, 2017, 09:44:37 pm
'cause it's not.
And I have no idea what you mean by compromise in this situation.
@Void:
That seems way too situational for a NE wand - something that only Myark will be carrying.
vote for battle-eagle instead
Post by: Andres on May 23, 2017, 09:51:07 pm
Y'know Andres, there are better ways to make comments or provide feedback other than saying "it's terrible".A giant eagle with a cannon on it is a waste of the meteor iron's power. It's just a giant, hard to take down eagle with a cannon on it. Compare that to your Frost Tower design, which cools the entire continent, or mine, which can freeze entire armies to death, or your Frostflame staff, which has so much flexibility.
'cause it's not.
And I have no idea what you mean by compromise in this situation.
As for compromise, I meant that I can change one of my designs to something closer to what you want or you can change one of your designs to something closer to what I want.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 23, 2017, 09:51:25 pm
Y'know Andres, there are better ways to make comments or provide feedback other than saying "it's terrible".
'cause it's not.
And I have no idea what you mean by compromise in this situation.
@Void:
That seems way too situational for a NE wand - something that only Myark will be carrying.
vote for battle-eagle instead
But can't you just picture some future archeologist, finding the wand, bringing it halfway around the world, discovering an ancient spell to detect the purpose of magic items, then learning it... makes horses go insane. The perfect legacy and metaphor for this whole war.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 23, 2017, 09:53:06 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 23, 2017, 09:56:30 pm
The doom frost tower is a good idea, but only if we fully invest in super-villain style world wide ice age. Need to make spells to keep our troops toasty and our farms productive, heated crystal farming domes?
I just don't see the super frost tower not killing us... and rendering the land barren forever.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 23, 2017, 09:58:15 pm
Edit: sorry about the double post I will be more careful.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 23, 2017, 10:01:20 pm
And the Frost Spire does have a clause to have it not affect places (that are already near to it) where the cold would hurt us.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 23, 2017, 10:04:55 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 23, 2017, 10:09:26 pm
@Andres: And I'm fine if you don't like any of my designs.
I still really like the Spire of Frost, it's just that it still has no additional support and I have other ideas I'd like to see what people think about. And seriously; I do appreciate suggestions for any of them.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 23, 2017, 10:12:11 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 23, 2017, 10:20:02 pm
And I do understand the concerns that the Battle-Eagle could be redundant considering our future designs. Ideally, I'd like to have bigger eagles carrying heavy weapons, but those weapons would probably be a "bombing" variant of the Hybrid Cannon/Artillery or just a general scaled-down variant. Same for the mages, but probably less of them. And no crystal plating. Though I'm not sure if this stuff is feasible given the amount of actions it'd take.
Basically, I'm sure the Battle-Eagle would be one-of-a-kind, but there is a possibility we could develop something like it in the distant future and make it less useful. But disregarding that, I like it.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 23, 2017, 10:25:53 pm
Quote
Meteor Design
2 - Battle Eagle (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7463614#msg7463614): Chiefwaffles, voidslayer
1 - Spire of Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461555#msg7461555): Chiefwaffles
1 - Tower of Heresy (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461776#msg7461776): FallacyofUrist
1 - Staff of Forever Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7462353#msg7462353): Andres
0 - Catgirl Assassins(Hilarious):
0 - Maxim Gun(Improbable):
1 - Aetheric Staff(Practical): FallacyofUrist
1 - Beacon of Magic: helmacon
0 - Demon Wolf From The Dark Heavens:
0 - Crown of Ash:
1 - Gilded Guardian Gilda: RAM
0? - Orb of Divination: Andrea?
0? - Orb of Anti-Divination: Andrea?
0 - Large Ice Lizard With Wings:
0 - Fair-Day Cage:
Sure, fine, I still wanted a giant wolf but a giant bird is fine.
Post by: Andres on May 23, 2017, 10:28:38 pm
I actually do like the frost staff, it is similar to one of my suggestions at one point. I would like to see how effective it is.So can you vote for it?
@Andres: And I'm fine if you don't like any of my designs.-The Meteoric Generator isn't bad, but it requires another Design to work. None of our current technologies or even tech trees are compatible with it, so we'll need something new entirely. For that reason this design is unsalvageable.
I still really like the Spire of Frost, it's just that it still has no additional support and I have other ideas I'd like to see what people think about. And seriously; I do appreciate suggestions for any of them.
-Battle Eagle as I have already mentioned is a waste of the opportunity.
-Staff of Frostflame is very ambitious. It attempts to do what the Staff of Forever Frost does, but also be capable of doing the same things with heat. It also has some unique features like the "set things on fire over there" bit. The Staff of Forever Frost just works in a radius centering on the staff itself. The way to make this design better is to strip out major features, but then you'd just get my Staff of Forever Frost.
I have some ideas I'd like to run by you real quick:
-Something that can summon angels of the gods. Their purity and goodness will smite the Moskurg from the face of the Earth.
-The Meteor Staff of Meteors: Summons giant meteors.
-Orb of Rerolls: Reroll the worst roll of a turn and pick the better result.
-Wand of True Light: Turns Moskurgs into Arstotzkans.
-Crown of Glory: Turns the Arstotzkan who wears it into a Super Arstotzkan. ((Note: I really really want this. More than anything. I will vote for whatever you want for 2 turns if you vote for this.))
Glory to Arstotzka.
EDIT:
Quote
Meteor Design
2 - Battle Eagle (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7463614#msg7463614): Chiefwaffles, voidslayer
2 - Spire of Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461555#msg7461555): Chiefwaffles, Andres
1 - Tower of Heresy (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461776#msg7461776): FallacyofUrist
1 - Staff of Forever Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7462353#msg7462353): Andres
0 - Catgirl Assassins(Hilarious):
0 - Maxim Gun(Improbable):
1 - Aetheric Staff(Practical): FallacyofUrist
1 - Beacon of Magic: helmacon
0 - Demon Wolf From The Dark Heavens:
0 - Crown of Ash:
1 - Gilded Guardian Gilda: RAM
0? - Orb of Divination: Andrea?
0? - Orb of Anti-Divination: Andrea?
0 - Large Ice Lizard With Wings:
0 - Fair-Day Cage:
Just so we have a bit more time to talk.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 23, 2017, 10:36:29 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 23, 2017, 10:37:45 pm
- Battle Eagle I see your point, but it does directly help us wherever Myark is, and considering that "Very Expensive" = a few dozen at most and usually just a few/a handful, I think that 1 thing, if as good as the Battle-Eagle, could be a huge difference. I do have my concerns that I already noted, though.
- Staff of Frostflame is ambitious, but I think the risk could potentially be worth it compared to the Staff of Forever Frost (which is still a good idea)
- The angels thing only vaguely relates to our experience (basic summoning) and I think doesn't match our theme. Shouldn't Moskurg be the one summoning angels?
- Giant meteor staff seems fine, but kind of plain.
- Orb of Rerolls seems like something Evicted would never ever let us do.
- Wand of True Light is an interesting idea that'd definitely be possible.
- Crown of Glory: Kind of over-general.
Again, I'm not really all that concerned about what we pick for our meteor design. As long as it's sufficiently super-powered and not something like "A flaming sword!1!11!one!1" (which is totally something we should do later) wasting the meteor. I don't think the Battle-Eagle applies here though.
What about a really explosive shell? Use magegems + meteor to create huge explosion at impact site.
Post by: Andres on May 23, 2017, 10:50:17 pm
- Staff of Frostflame is ambitious, but I think the risk could potentially be worth it compared to the Staff of Forever Frost (which is still a good idea)- The Staff of Forever Frost is already an army-killer. There's little point in reaching beyond that. Hell, remove the fire stuff and keep that other extra feature (selective effect area) and it functionally does the same thing. Just instead of burning a ballista it flash-freezes it and also its crew. But again, the SoFF is already an army-killer, so why go for the increased complexity?
- The angels thing only vaguely relates to our experience (basic summoning) and I think doesn't match our theme. Shouldn't Moskurg be the one summoning angels?
- Wand of True Light is an interesting idea that'd definitely be possible.
- Crown of Glory: Kind of over-general.
What about a really explosive shell? Use magegems + meteor to create huge explosion at impact site.
- I don't think we're getting any penalties or bonuses based on past experiences for this design, due to it being a special bonus one. But no, why would Moskurg be summoning angels? Demons, maybe, but not angels.
- Willing to vote for it? Have any suggestions to improve it without increasing complexity?
- ((Come oooooooon! It's a Super Saiyan that's powered by glory and magic!))
We have no delivery system and even if we did there are things that can go wrong, such as Moskurg intercepting it. Also kind of boring. I mean, it's just a big explosion.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on May 23, 2017, 11:16:58 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 24, 2017, 01:57:11 am
The SO1-M "Mother" shell is a simple design. It turns out that when enough energy is introduced into the meteor in just the right place, the meteor violently explodes. It has a destruction radius unlike nothing we've ever seen before.
The shell design is simple. Inside the shell is a set of ~2-3 A-sized (or smaller if needed) Magegems. Upon impact with the ground, these Magegems will shatter, suddenly releasing their magical energy. Crystal conduits inside the shell will direct the energy towards a small meteor fragment. Once the energy is input, the meteor fragment and thus the whole shell create a huge explosion. The shell is specifically fit for a HA1.
This explosion is unlike anything we've ever seen. It creates an area of utter devastation, wiping out entire Moskurg units of soldiers and destroying multiple emplacements at once. Of course, these shells take a long time to produce and are made using the sparse meteor, so they're not common occurrences in the battlefield. They're most used by our commanders once a tactically-important Moskurg piece of land is found, and called in using precise flares to prevent error.
TL;DR: Extreme explosive shells. Rare and specifically called in by commanders, but resemble something like extreme tactical bombs (MOAB, anyone?) of today.
Meteor Design: Wand of True Light
Those Moskurgers seriously believe their ideology is superior to ours?
How silly, and able to be remedied.
The Wand of True Light does exactly what its named for - it brings light to our enemies. It turns out that the meteor has... effects on people's minds. By itself, it just produces mild irritation and discomfort. But our mathemagicians are no fools. Using their experience of manipulating minds as learned with the Falcon taming spells, they applied it to the meteor. The result is the Wand of True Light. It's rather large but still resembles a wand. At the top, covered by elaborate circuitry, is the meteor fragment. Circuitry here and across the inside and outside of the wand "tunes" the signals emitted by the meteor into something weaponize-able.
It influences one's mind to show them the true light of the war and Arstotzka's righteousness.
When held by a skilled and precise user like Myark, the Wand of True Light can be influenced at varying scales. Against a single person, the wand can completely reach an individual and enlighten them about our cause and the nature of the war, making them more loyal to Arstotzka than most of our soldiers. Against a small group, the wand can make people realize the true reasons for the war and Arstotzkaa's moral righteousness; that it's wrong to be fighting for such an awful nation like Moskurg. Realizing this and with their convictions and beliefs greatly shaken they can desert, surrender, or simply just retreat. Against large amounts of troops at the theatre-scale, the wand can put doubts in Moskurgers' minds - is it really worth it? Could they die? Are they on the right side?
In the scale of theatres, the wand for the most part won't convert anyone not already wracked with indecision, but it will significantly lower their morale. When an uncertain foe is fighting against our loyal and dedicated troops, who's going to win? When an uncertain Moskurger sees their friends die to the shells of our cannons, will they stay and fight or run away?
The wand is a deadly weapon, given to Myark for his use only. It can influence battlefields, turn individuals to our side, and nearly-immediately make smaller groups of Moskurgers abandon and desert.
TL;DR: A mind-influencing weapon. Causes mass decrease in morale on a theatre scale, can cause small groups to desert the battle or surrender, or can completely "brainwash" individuals.
I'm happy to modify the design at anyone's request.
I'll be voting for this wand since I think it's a great design. Not removing my votes for anything else, yet, though.
Quote
Meteor Design
1 - Battle Eagle (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7463614#msg7463614): voidslayer
2 - Spire of Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461555#msg7461555): Chiefwaffles, Andres
1 - Tower of Heresy (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461776#msg7461776): FallacyofUrist
1 - Staff of Forever Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7462353#msg7462353): Andres
1 - Wand of True Light (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7463873#msg7463873): Chiefwaffles
0 - Catgirl Assassins(Hilarious):
0 - Maxim Gun(Improbable):
1 - Aetheric Staff(Practical): FallacyofUrist
1 - Beacon of Magic: helmacon
0 - Demon Wolf From The Dark Heavens:
0 - Crown of Ash:
1 - Gilded Guardian Gilda: RAM
0? - Orb of Divination: Andrea?
0? - Orb of Anti-Divination: Andrea?
0 - Large Ice Lizard With Wings:
0 - Fair-Day Cage:
Also, as a note, I do kind of want to get air manipulation/something resembling "telekinesis" at some point. Since I have some ideas for the HA2/HC3: (Not in any particular order; hard ones colored red.)
1.) Breech loading (Load shells from the back of the artillery piece, not the front. More modern loading method, not that hard to accomplish, and should greatly increase rate of fire. Easily done in a revision.)
2.) Levitation (We use some kind of spell to cause the artillery piece to lightly "levitate", allowing for extremely easy movement. Can be done with a revision if we have a "Manipulate air" spell or something like that, but may have to be done as part of a design.)
3.) Swivel-mount (Maybe HC3 exclusive - Give it 360 degrees of rotation alongside the ground and try for 90 degrees up and down. Lets our HC3s fire at much more things, like Moskurg carpets. Helps HC3s and maaaybe HA1s on ships)
4.) Powered (Use Magegems to power artillery, allowing mundane troops to operate it with the occasional/rare visit from an apprentice fore recharging.)
5.) Living (Use an intelligence implanted into a magegem to automatically aim the artillery piece, eliminating human error + making Artillery more reliable, as no squishy humans to die means longer-lasting artillery)
6.) Self-loading (Create a kind of "magazine" that loads into the HA1/HC3, allowing it to fire at a much faster rate. Worthy of a design.)
7.) Crystal Shield/Plating (Create a crystal enclosure for the operators and maybe crystal plating for the rest of the artillery, making it much more durable against Moskurg air units and artillery.)
Also, possible designs using Magegems next turn:
1.) Flarewand (A "wand" powered by an AA magegem inserted in the bottom. Distributed to as many mundanes as possible, it can be used by anyone to summon a flare, allowing for communication without wizards. Since it's a design, we could be more ambitious - anti-AM maybe?)
2.) Crystalworks. (PLEASE)
3.) Firegem (A grenade. It's an AA-sized magegem coated with magical circuits harnessing the energy into a fireball, and as the fireball doesn't have to have velocity it takes less energy. A "pin" is pulled, starting a circuit-powered timer. The user throws it, and it eventually goes off, unleashing a fireball at its location. Allows for mundane fireballs in melees and skirmishes.)
4.) Fireshell (Above, but fit for a shell. Either #3 or #4 could be a design, and the remaining one can be a revision.)
And other note: We should probably try revising our circuits again next turn. We can get bonuses due to experience from our revision this turn and it has a ton of benefits.
EDIT: Removing my vote for battle-eagles. I'm actually a really big fan of this design so far. And battle-eagles are pretty close to something I want to do eventually anyways
Post by: RAM on May 24, 2017, 02:02:11 am
We figured out how to make the meteor explode. We just shoot it from one territory to an adjacent one, and then, boom! A massive explosion permanently dents the territory and a cloud of chaotic magic settles there for a thousand years which causes any heads that are in the region to promptly explode.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 24, 2017, 02:44:24 am
Quote
7.) Crystal Shield/Plating (Create a crystal enclosure for the operators and maybe crystal plating for the rest of the artillery, making it much more durable against Moskurg air units and artillery.)
Yes please why haven't we done this yet please why. We can literally summon steel bunkers.
Post by: RAM on May 24, 2017, 02:59:23 am
Quote7.) Crystal Shield/Plating (Create a crystal enclosure for the operators and maybe crystal plating for the rest of the artillery, making it much more durable against Moskurg air units and artillery.)
Yes please why haven't we done this yet please why. We can literally summon steel bunkers.
Communual spell: The living wall! (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7437352#msg7437352)
-Your Theatre Commander is not an idiot and you should listen to his advice
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 24, 2017, 03:02:22 am
Speaking of which, Evicted, how are our artillery pieces being destroyed by firebombs? The stuff's made out of metal, right?
@RAM: Living Wall is much more ambitious than simple crystal plating+canopies (with infrastructure!) and the circumstances were very different at that time.
Post by: Andres on May 24, 2017, 09:20:14 am
TL;DR: A mind-influencing weapon. Causes mass decrease in morale on a theatre scale, can cause small groups to desert the battle or surrender, or can completely "brainwash" individuals.I'd like to request a rewording of the design. As it is, it's worded very cynically, as if it were a weapon of slavery and fear. It should be the opposite. Against an individual, it should free from the curse of being a Moskurg and allow them to live their life as a true, virtuous, glorious Arstotzkan. Against a small group, it purges enemies of enough Moskurgans that they become internally conflicted between Arstotzka and Moskurg, resulting in anything from desertion to surrender to rout. The effects of what happens to large groups is worded well in the original design document.
I'm happy to modify the design at anyone's request.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 24, 2017, 10:11:53 am
Looks like the Spire is winning. Unless that changes soon I'll roll up the design.
Post by: Andres on May 24, 2017, 11:29:00 am
Quote
Meteor Design
1 - Battle Eagle (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7463614#msg7463614): voidslayer
1 - Spire of Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461555#msg7461555): Chiefwaffles
1 - Tower of Heresy (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461776#msg7461776): FallacyofUrist
1 - Staff of Forever Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7462353#msg7462353): Andres
2 - Wand of True Light (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7463873#msg7463873): Chiefwaffles, Andres
0 - Catgirl Assassins(Hilarious):
0 - Maxim Gun(Improbable):
1 - Aetheric Staff(Practical): FallacyofUrist
1 - Beacon of Magic: helmacon
0 - Demon Wolf From The Dark Heavens:
0 - Crown of Ash:
1 - Gilded Guardian Gilda: RAM
0? - Orb of Divination: Andrea?
0? - Orb of Anti-Divination: Andrea?
0 - Large Ice Lizard With Wings:
0 - Fair-Day Cage:
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: helmacon on May 24, 2017, 02:07:13 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 24, 2017, 02:47:16 pm
Quote
Meteor Design
1 - Battle Eagle (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7463614#msg7463614): voidslayer
1 - Spire of Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461555#msg7461555): Chiefwaffles
0 - Tower of Heresy (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7461776#msg7461776):
1 - Staff of Forever Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7462353#msg7462353): Andres
4 - Wand of True Light (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7463873#msg7463873): Chiefwaffles, Andres, FallacyofUrist, helmacon
0 - Catgirl Assassins(Hilarious):
0 - Maxim Gun(Improbable):
0 - Aetheric Staff(Practical):
1 - Beacon of Magic: helmacon
0 - Demon Wolf From The Dark Heavens:
0 - Crown of Ash:
1 - Gilded Guardian Gilda: RAM
0? - Orb of Divination: Andrea?
0? - Orb of Anti-Divination: Andrea?
0 - Large Ice Lizard With Wings:
0 - Fair-Day Cage:
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 24, 2017, 03:01:09 pm
But it does go in a direction that we won't really need to go towards later. If it works out then we won't particularly need to do anything in the
And Andres, I think I addressed your feedback. It's a bit less cynical now. It may not be enough, so still let me know if you have anything else to add before it gets rolled.
Post by: Andres on May 24, 2017, 03:11:33 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 24, 2017, 03:44:34 pm
The Wand of True Light is an incredibly unique and ambitious design. It is similar to our spell to sway falcons to our cause, but the actual spellwork behind it is a little confusing. The meteorite had just enough ore for a single wand, and the properties of the metal leave our Mathemagicians scratching their heads. It doesn't behave at all like our other spells, instead shifting in a web of interconnected magical links. The point is that we managed to make it, but we have no idea how and probably couldn't replicate it.
The wand requires the focus of a master wizard like Myark and has a theatre-wide moral effect. It seeds doubts in the victims mind that are difficult to dispell until they're outside the effect of the spell. Particularly strong-willed individuals may be able to fight it, but the average soldier will break more easily once afflicted. The spell is insideous, able to cover an entire theatre - it doesn't work in anti-magical fields, but an affected soldier will need to spend a couple hours in the anti-magic area before the effects wear off, or leave the theatre entirely. National Effort.
Myark is back from his campaign overseas. Where do you wish to send him?
Post by: Andres on May 24, 2017, 04:31:56 pm
Send Myark to the Mountains. Let's get back our ore.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on May 24, 2017, 04:35:10 pm
Myark is back from his campaign overseas. Where do you wish to send him?To the bathhouse! There is nothing like a long campaign to build up an epic reek.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 24, 2017, 04:35:22 pm
So, where to send Myark?
Mountains is an option if we want to absolutely crush any semblances of resistance there, but I'm not sure about that. We'd probably win easily without Myark.
At the sea? It'd break the stalemate there.
Plains? It'd help continue or victory there, but we only need him if Moskurg made any particularly useful inventions.
Jungle? We didn't lose by that much last time and now we have Falcons.
Post by: Andres on May 24, 2017, 04:57:37 pm
Mountains is an option if we want to absolutely crush any semblances of resistance there, but I'm not sure about that. We'd probably win easily without Myark.We could indeed probably win without Myark, but if we likely won't be able to win over the course of a single year. Better to send him in now not only to guarantee that we get the Mountains, but that we get the Mountains this very year.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 24, 2017, 04:58:56 pm
That and Evicted did say that battles will always have one side advancing now. So if we have the upper hand, we'll win back the Mountains.
Personally, I'm thinking either Jungle or Seas.
Post by: Andres on May 24, 2017, 05:04:50 pm
Well, we did lose because a ton of our forces were gone and they only gained one piece of land.Yeah, we had the benefit of fortresses, cannons, and our frost towers, and we were still easily defeated by 2:1 odds. Those defensive emplacements alone should've been enough to negate the numeric advantage, but they didn't, they badly didn't. Now they'll be on the defence and armed with whatever they've designed this year.
That and Evicted did say that battles will always have one side advancing now. So if we have the upper hand, we'll win back the Mountains.
I would also like to take this time to officially go against doing any more crystalworks or whatever next turn. We have a bunch of techs that need refinement and we should focus on them first before going into new tech that'll be theoretically useful in the future after further designs.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 24, 2017, 05:13:33 pm
The Crystalworks isn't just future infrastructure, too. Remember Crystal Axes? Crystal Caltrops? With anchored crystal, those things become relevant again. Those are two designs that have been literally useless ever since Moskurg introduced anti-magic. The sooner we design it, the sooner we can get to work on actually useful things.
It's better to design infrastructure early so we can take advantage of it. Putting it off until later means you have to use a design action when it's likely more tense and more needed for immediate action and you won't have the benefit of that infrastructure until later. The Crystalworks enables a ton of future designs while making two of our current designs useful again, and we still have a re vision credit.
And yeah, 2-1 odds. That's a lot. The Mountains can work without us. Let's send Myark to the plains or the sea. Let's put pressure on the plains while we prepare for another assault into the jungle.
Send Myark to the Plains.
Post by: Andres on May 24, 2017, 05:20:17 pm
We will have no Revision Credit.Wait, GM, do we get two Revisions this turn for getting the meteor iron? It did mention a Revision Credit.
Sorry - that was another mistake on my part. The initial idea was to let the winner Revise the ore into something that they already had, but I decided it would be more useful and exciting to design it into something new.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 24, 2017, 05:22:09 pm
We don't need a revision credit to do revisions at all. We will have a Design and Revision next turn. I was referring to that revision.
Post by: Andres on May 24, 2017, 05:24:58 pm
The Crystalworks enables a ton of future designs while making two of our current designs useful again, and we still have a re vision credit.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 24, 2017, 05:44:43 pm
Post by: RAM on May 24, 2017, 06:01:37 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on May 25, 2017, 12:48:09 am
The jungle sees Moskurg push forward one section, once again stepping foot on Arstotzkan soil.
Carpet bombers still cause more damage during raids, but only barely. Arstotzkan flares and falcons have proven capable of bringing down and repelling the carpet-riders, so Moskurg mages have moved to a "shoot and scoot" method of attack - they fly over the camp as fast as they're able and drop their firestorm grenades once overhead. They don't stop and continue on; it does less damage, and they don't always escape Arstotzka's tamed falcons, but it results in fewer casualties.
The battles during the day see Arstotzka firing their long-range artillery from behind clouds of mist. Normally they'd completely obscure their artillery with mist to prevent carpet-riders from seeing them, but they still need to be able to see the short-lived flares of their apprentices in the field. The lack of exploding ammunition still limits their lethality, but Moskurg is likewise hampered because they can't bomb with impunity any more. Ballistas are forced to move up to hit enemy targets and still hit with uncanny accuracy that Arstotzka can't match, but Arstotzka's HC1-E's have a higher fire rate and are just as plentiful. Artillery is a wash, and charging over land results in similarly well-equipped soldiers smashing into one another with no clear winner. Ultimately, it's al-Mutriqa who wins to day, flying in bravely on his War Pegasus, slashing falcons left and right and hurling fire at Arsotzkan troops down below. Arstotzka retreats back a section onto their home soil, but at least now their navy can assist from the shore.
Moskurg regains a section of the Taiga.
Arsotzka blows Moskurg out of the mountains with laughable ease.
Long-range HA1's are killer against stationary castles, and the natural cold of the mountain combined with Arstotzka's Towers of Frost can't be dispelled by the Divine Desert Winds blowing up from the south. Additionally, Myark is seen here wielding a new wand; a glowing, impressive length of metal that unnerves every Moskurg soldier standing in the theatre. War Pegasi often aren't enough to repel the long-range artillery, as the obscuring mists can safely hide them here. Stationary targets don't require flares for zeroing in, and once bombardment starts Moskurg can't repel them quickly enough. Men have taken on the disturbing trend of fleeing the castle once the walls fall, not even bothering to stand and fight when hope is lost. Arstotzka's new wand - the Wand of True Light - effectively penalizes Moskurgs moral and pushes them out of the mountains and back into the desert.
Arstotzka gains control of the mountain. If they hold it for a turn, they will gain a Metal Bonus.
Moskurg secures a section of the plains.
Despite no longer snowing, Moskurgs are still uncomfortable in the unnaturally cold area. The plains also benefit the longer-ranged HA1 artillery, despite their relatively non-lethal nature. Trenches are static, and once dialed in the artillery can begin shelling with mist cover, though semi-inaccurately. War Pegasi are likewise effective at bombing trenches; that is to say, to a limited degree. Falcons prevent them from truly ruling the skies, though they do make life miserable for the men down below. Extreme-Range artillery battles are still a wash, as are charges across the devastated no-mans land by infantry. Moskurgs calvary does slightly better, as it can sometimes close the gap between the lines more often than Arstotzka's calvary, but it's not terribly effective. Ultimately, despite the cold advantage, Moskurg gains ground thanks to their superior communications via teletalk wands and their ability to use their War Pegasi to respond to threats faster. It could benefit from improvement, but the Teletalk wands allow more nuanced battleplans, and Arstotzkan flare-users are often sniped too quickly for more than a couple quick artillery adjustments.
Moskurg has secured the plains. If they can hold if for a turn, they may use the Horse Bonus there.
Arstotzkan ships push both the Eastern and Western Seas.
In these wide-open areas, flares are actually more useful for communication than the limited-range teletalk wands. The steamships are faster and can pick-and-choose their battles, and each ship can sink multiple Moskurg vessels before eventually burning and sinking to the bottom of the ocean. War Pegasi are still limited by range, communication, and the attack falcons, though they do a significant amount of damage to Arstotzka's ships.
Arstotzka gains ground in the Eastern and Western Seas.
Expense Credit!!!
The trader has returned once again! Still interested in acquiring magical artifacts to sell overseas, he has enough coin to provide an Expense Credit if we choose to sell him something. What do we trade the man?
It is 935, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 935 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Behavior Rules. Please Read.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 25, 2017, 01:17:47 am
Also it's almost like we didn't need Myark in the mountains at all.
Anywhoo, things I can immediately see we need:
1.) Communication. This is difficult. Linked Magegems? To make some kind of (mundane-usable radio!)
2.) Exploding ammunition. (Maybe magegem + shell for magical explosion?)
3.) Crystal Circuits re-try. We could get a bonus if we try it again with some fitting fluff. It's honestly worth a retry in my opinion.
4.) A goddamn counter to Lucky Strike. (Cheaper Equalizer shell?)
5.) Better AA (Falcons are effective, but carpets still do damage before our falcons get to them. More or faster falcons probably. Maybe even cheap flak shells for HC1-Es?)
As for the trader, I actually don't know. If we do something like the delegator/another "trinket"-like item or revise any of our designs (namely the steam engine) to fit magegems, we could do that.
I do really like the idea of a magical radio.
Design: WCD1 "Delegator"
It turns out that with some careful manipulation of Magegems, we can create a kind of magical link between them. This actually came from some miscellaneous study into crystal summoning - magical links should be what keeps our summoned things alive. It's why antimagic can dispel things like crystal. If you disrupt the magical link, it can no longer exist.
So what if we artificially create a link between two AA-sized magegems? Manipulation of magical charge in one gem is reflected across a link of our creation in another magegem. Remember how our anti-magic crystals hum? What if we could turn that into voice? And what if we could make the charge in the gems just sensitive enough that voice can manipulate them as well? We can add in a little button on the side that when pressed, changes the state of the gem to allow for these changes.
The result is a wireless communication device. By pressing the button, one can talk "into" the magegem, "disrupting" the magical link between the magegem and its sister gem. This change in the link is reflected in its sister gem, which instead of releasing this changed energy via a hum, will create low-quality but audible speech! Mundane and magical troops alike will be able to communicate without any kind of visual indicator!
Delegators are issued in pairs of two - with the field troops getting one and our artillery operators and commanders getting the other one. Each squad should be issued a gem leading back to the local command. The squad can relay new information to Command, receive new orders, and spot for artillery using a system of coordinates.
Delegators running out of power is a frequent problem, but the very rare apprentice-less squads can be issued redundant Delegators and even then, it isn't that big of a problem. Squads with apprentices can simply have the apprentice directly power the delegator or charge it when it's not being used, while mage-less squads can be conservative in its use and get it charged whenever they come across another mage. Thanks to the fact that the delegator shares the indicators of charge level with the Magegem, a squad can also call an apprentice or command when the charge is critically low.
The Delegator is based off of the AA-sized gem, but if our mathemagicians fail their only purpose and can't mathematically optimize the power-to-speech and maintenance of the magical link, we can use A-size gems. This is only if AA-sized gems are literally useless for this purpose.
TL;DR: A design based on our Magegems. A magical radio that can be used by mundane and magical forces. It's actually just a radio. It's based heavily off of our existing knowledge, namely magegems and summoning.
Copy+pasting Crystalworks from before.
Design: Crystalworks
Crystal is an amazing material sadly of little use to us currently, but we can fix that. The Crystalworks uses new techniques to mass produce cheap crystal invulnerable to the pathetic anti-magic utilized by Moskurg "wizards".
The Crystalworks is a large building - somewhat like a warehouse - with a high roof and wide while quite long.
At the center of the Crystalworks lies the "power room" where extreme amounts of A-size Magegems are connected in series. This room provides powers for the many power-hungry circuits across the Crystalworks. Thanks to the discoveries from our
We realized early on that having one circuit summoning precise crystal designs is inefficient and wasteful. Instead, we use "conveyor belts" of a some kind of fabric or cloth-like material strong enough to hold the contents on top being artificially moved by a steam engine.
In the first part of the Crystalworks, we have large amounts of circuits constantly summoning new unformed slabs of crystal. These hunks of crystal are split across other conveyor belts moving across the rest of the factory where other circuits gradually reform the crystal into different shapes, like sections of armor plating for ships or people, axes, wiring, and more!
New lines of circuits and conveyor belts can be added to the factory as needed as we design more crystal-based items.
Perhaps the most important aspect of the Crystalworks is the nature of the crystal. It turns out that when a human summons crystal, they "spend" a bit of their total magic potential and put it into the crystal. This magical energy can't stay outside of its natural host (the summoning wizard) for too long, and thus eventually returns, dispelling the crystal. Maintaining it simply resets the timer by replacing the "old" energy with "new" energy. The method of production using circuits simply creates the energy without forcing it to rely on "borrowed" magic, meaning the crystal lasts forever. This means that the crystal also can't be dispelled by Moskurg anti-magic because there's no magic to dispel in the new crystal.
It turns out this "assembly line" method of creating crystal items is much more energy-efficient than spending effort and time summoning one perfect item at a time. This plus the decline in required personnel means we can produce crystal at a much greater rate than before. Things such as crystal axes almost pour out of the Crystalworks and into crates designated for shipping onto the battlefield, to replace the old dispellable crystal!
TL;DR Mass produce anchored crystal. Allows us to more easily manage expense in future crystal designs and not worry about dispelling.
How?
The Crystalwork does just two things: Anchored Crystals and Infrastructure, with Expense being an additional/the main benefit from Infrastructure.
If anything, we should get a bonus from it. We know how to use circuits to make spells. We have magegems. We just use magegems with circuits to cast spells to summon crystal!
Why?
Crystal is extremely useful if it doesn't get dispelled. The Crystalworks makes crystal useful again by anchoring it then increases our supply of it. We'll be able to use crystal for useful design, like armor for our soldiers or crystal canopies/plating for our artillery, Crystalclads, and much more. In addition, Crystalworks provides immediate benefits. At the very least, it should make Crystal Axes and Crystal Caltrops, two useless designs that we spent actions on, just as useful as they used to be. And hopefully it should even reduce their expense! Imagine if every soldier gets a crystal axe!
Next turn or soon I want to do the Crystalclad. This is essential for that.
Quote
Designs
1 - Crystalworks (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7464937#msg7464937): Chiefwaffles
0 - WCD1 "Delegator" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7464937#msg7464937):
Post by: helmacon on May 25, 2017, 01:38:14 am
Post by: RAM on May 25, 2017, 01:46:02 am
We examine the life-imbuing properties of the summon-wasp spell to imbue our crystals with awareness and purpose. Where the wasps are aware of their surroundings, the crystals are aware of surrounding magicks and their own crystalline bodies. Where wasps possess a purpose to seek and sting and bite, crystals possess a will to persist. They use these abilities to repel magical intrusions and to resist affronts to their existence. Combining their awareness of magic and will to apply themselves through it, they naturally fight against enemy attempts to suppress their existence. This effect can be further enhanced by supplying them with mage gems to grant them additional resources with which to fight magical or metaphysical intrusions into their domain.
With the hard part beign a tiresome but relatively methodical process of extending mathemagical theory from crystal conjuration into wasp conjuration, we were mostly free when testing the crystals themselves, and spent our time applying these techniques to our existing crystal spells and fine-tuning crystal forms, specifically cannon-shell shapes. We now have a spell to summon a crystal shell based off of the caltrop spell, that basically summmons caltrops within a separate shell and backing-plate design. The shell separates in the air and the caltrops spread out over an area.
This prepares us for crystal-operated magical devices, which would be a great way to justify mundane-operable wands and cannons. For now it gets us our old gear back and gives us a splash weapon. and builds up our curvature experience for crystalclads...
Antiluck ward
This is a tweaking of our antimagic charms to absorb the magical form of luck, and collecting it into large wards that will affect a large area. This stops enemy luck magic by making us immune to all forms of luck, both good and bad, as it is all converted into sounds, or perhaps magic? It works on the theory that it is impossible to give someone good luck that will kill someone else without giving the victim bad luck, which seems quite apparently true given that getting killed in an unlikely fashion is pretty much the definition of bad luck. and given that it is a starting spell, it seems plausible that we know that magic can affect luck, and thus luck must be a phenomena that magic can interact with, thus the magic-absorbing charms can absorb it.
This kills their luck spell, kills it but good. It doesn't cost us many mages. It stops us getting lucky, but luck doesn't favour us. It also makes big strides in tweaking out charms, which could have utility in making coded spells that work within our antimagic...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 25, 2017, 02:17:03 am
@Helmacon: Yeah, that's a possibility but it means that despite the rolls we'd always get "your guys have to sit down and stare at the magegem for some time to communicate." It'd still be useful, sure, but even in the very unlikely case of a -1 for something like speech conversion (we do already have magic->audio) we could prevent a drawback like that.
Besides, I think Crystalworks is the way to go. Seriously. Do you people want Crystalclads?
They're like ironclads, but better! Fitted with multiple cannons, completely clad in thick crystal plating! Also we could have a very easy time doing crystal plating and reinforcement to things like the HA1, and I still really want to do the awesome stuff like the Walkers.
Basically, Crystal is the material of the future and we can realize that with just one design - the Crystalworks. Plentiful anchored crystal + 2 free designs (crystal axes and caltrops) to go along with it!
Post by: Andres on May 25, 2017, 08:43:38 am
1. We get a new version of steam ship that only requires water and no mages to work. He's a trader, so he'll appreciate a banging new ship that can go faster than any other and can travel regardless of wind.
2. We focus the efforts of the Wand of True Light on him, enlightening him to the righteousness of the Arstotzkan people.
3. We give him a dogwood wand, which should be easy enough for him to use. Pretty sure pegasi are better, though.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: helmacon on May 25, 2017, 08:59:34 am
Radio sounds good. (I didn't realise we already had magic-> audio, so I guess it ought to be fine.)
We could refine our cannons into breach loading or auto loading varients.
Our current use of falcons is purely defensive, so designing some sort of offensive air capacity might be nice.
HE shells using our mage gems might be nice too.
Regardless, it should be something practical.
Post by: Andres on May 25, 2017, 09:11:30 am
Post by: evictedSaint on May 25, 2017, 09:37:43 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 25, 2017, 10:08:12 am
The thing is, the earlier we do infrastructure the better. The longer we wait, the less benefit it'll have and the more it'll hurt us. Besides, like I said, the Crystalworks has immediate benefits - it's the same as getting two new designs - the crystal axe and caltrops.
Post by: Andres on May 25, 2017, 10:22:47 am
We can use our revision for something practical and send in Myark to the jungle.You'll just vote to use the revision on the crystalworks.
The thing is, the earlier we do infrastructure the better. The longer we wait, the less benefit it'll have and the more it'll hurt us. Besides, like I said, the Crystalworks has immediate benefits - it's the same as getting two new designs - the crystal axe and caltrops.Crystalworks will only make those things work if it succeeds. You intend to create anchored crystal and mass produce it in one fell swoop. The last time we did something like were the "Giant" Falcons. At the moment, we are suffering greatly from unwillingness to sit down and focus on the things we already have, always rushing off to pursue some new idea. The crystal circuitry, the equalisers, the magegems, and the dogwood wand - all of them YOUR ideas, notably - are all examples.
You're also selectively "longer we wait, less benefit we get". You forget that Moskurg now has control over both the Jungle and the Plains. The advantages they'll get from them will compound over time, so quickly depriving them of those resources should be a priority. Immediately useful designs and revisions should be our focus.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 25, 2017, 10:28:21 am
Oh, I'm sorry. I must of forgotten that you know what I'll do while I don't.We can use our revision for something practical and send in Myark to the jungle.You'll just vote to use the revision on the crystalworks.
Wow it's almost like the designs are made using dice or something.The thing is, the earlier we do infrastructure the better. The longer we wait, the less benefit it'll have and the more it'll hurt us. Besides, like I said, the Crystalworks has immediate benefits - it's the same as getting two new designs - the crystal axe and caltrops.Crystalworks will only make those things work if it succeeds. You intend to create anchored crystal and mass produce it in one fell swoop. The last time we did something like were the "Giant" Falcons. At the moment, we are suffering greatly from unwillingness to sit down and focus on the things we already have, always rushing off to pursue some new idea. The crystal circuitry, the equalisers, the magegems, and the dogwood wand - all of them YOUR ideas, notably - are all examples.
You're also selectively "longer we wait, less benefit we get". You forget that Moskurg now has control over both the Jungle and the Plains. The advantages they'll get from them will compound over time, so quickly depriving them of those resources should be a priority. Immediately useful designs and revisions should be our focus.And what I said is true. The longer we wait is more designs unable to use crystal when they could clearly benefit from it. If we do if at all later then it's more tense as well. We gain immediate effects and passive effects.
Glory to Arstotzka.
EDIT: Remember when Evicted said this?
If you revise your manufacturing process in a way that applies to both, then yeah it'll do that. You guys have been comming up with these insane weapons with minimal infastructure to support them so far; I think I mentioned in the design that the HA1 is as far as you can get without a SERIOUS overhaul of your manufacturing process.
Post by: Andres on May 25, 2017, 10:42:57 am
Wow it's almost like the designs are made using dice or something.The magegems rolled very well and were still useless on arrival. Ambitious designs as a rule are never useful on the turn they're made, no matter how good or bad the rolls are. Only after multiple turns are they made useful in any meaningful way.
And what I said is true. The longer we wait is more designs unable to use crystal when they could clearly benefit from it. If we do if at all later then it's more tense as well. We gain immediate effects and passive effects.We only get immediate effects if everything works according to the design document, and the odds of us rolling well enough to get that are slim to none. "None" because we might have to spend another turn working on it even if we roll very well, like all 5s.
EDIT: Remember when Evicted said this?We have since improved our manufacturing process for both rifling and barrel-making. Furthermore, the infrastructure he says is necessary is only for "insane" weapons like the HA1. More infrastructure isn't necessary for lesser designs.If you revise your manufacturing process in a way that applies to both, then yeah it'll do that. You guys have been comming up with these insane weapons with minimal infastructure to support them so far; I think I mentioned in the design that the HA1 is as far as you can get without a SERIOUS overhaul of your manufacturing process.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 25, 2017, 10:59:43 am
The Crystalworks isn't ambitious. Its main purpose is crystal anchoring then it also includes expense. How's that overambitious?
And with its main purpose, we should be getting the crystal axe and caltrops. The primary point of the Crystalworks is anchored crystal and expense. If it doesn't get anchored crystal, the design is useless anyways and would have to critically fail at its rolls. Which is a risk literally any design carries. If it does get anchored crystal, then we get crystal axes and caltrops back.
And what if we want to build any more "insane" designs? With this out of the way, we can do that at any point. If we don't do this now, we'll be heavily restricted until we create infrastructure. The sooner we get it out of the way, the better.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 25, 2017, 11:04:59 am
As such, and because it leads to so many things... and gives us our lances back... I'll put my vote onto Crystalworks.
Quote
Designs
2 - Crystalworks (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7464937#msg7464937): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
0 - WCD1 "Delegator" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7464937#msg7464937):
0? - Living Crystals + Shells: RAM?
0? - Antiluck Ward: RAM?
Post by: Andres on May 25, 2017, 11:13:38 am
That's the point of Magegems. They will serve as essential part of future designs.That was a wise way of handling magegems - not as their own thing, but as something to build upon. Ambitious designs are meant to be thought of that way, because that's how they are.
The Crystalworks isn't ambitious. Its main purpose is crystal anchoring then it also includes expense. How's that overambitious?
Its main purpose is crystal anchoring then it also includes expense.The first thing alone wouldn't be too bad, but then it also tries to do a second thing. That makes it ambitious. Were it trying to achieve the more modest goal of only getting crystal anchoring I would not have a problem with it.
And what if we want to build any more "insane" designs? With this out of the way, we can do that at any point. If we don't do this now, we'll be heavily restricted until we create infrastructure. The sooner we get it out of the way, the better.It's only "better" if we want to build more insane designs. In other words, it's good if we want to continue your policy of making new technologies and ignore refinement, it's bad if we go with my policy of ignoring new techs and focusing on refinement.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 25, 2017, 11:21:52 am
The Crystalworks uses a design for anchored crystal and expense/infrastructure. This is not overambitious. If I was saying it made stronger crystal Magegems in addition to what it actually does, that'd be ambitious. This isn't.
This is playing it safe if anything.
And for "insane designs", what about the crystalclad? It's refinement of existing technology. It uses crystal plates, Magegems, and the steam engine.
What about crystal reinforcement of existing designs? That's refinement.
Or crystal armor for our troops?
Crystal is something that could be easily used for many things without much effort and without risking anything new. The Crystalworks lets us use it.
@FallacyOfUrist
Yeah, the crystal axes are more of a bonus that makes it have immediate benefit. So it's not just something for the future.
Post by: Andres on May 25, 2017, 11:39:57 am
Quote
Designs
3 - Crystalworks (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7464937#msg7464937): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Andres
0 - WCD1 "Delegator" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7464937#msg7464937):
0? - Living Crystals + Shells: RAM?
0? - Antiluck Ward: RAM?
We hold a naval advantage. To reinforce it is a simple matter - all we have to do is make our ships Expensive instead of Very Expensive. This can be easily done. All we have to do is design a new ship that's Expensive and use the Revision to make our steam engine cheaper.
Now, a ship can be made Expensive with just a Revision, so it would be underambitious if that's all we did. The new ship design should also be capable of having many cannons on them, so many that it would only reach capacity if the cannons were Cheap. Why? Because revising the steam engine to be cheaper will also make our HC1-Es cheaper, and since they're already Expensive, they'll become Cheap.
Not only will we have more ships, they'll also have far more firepower than what the Moskurgs can bring to bear. All with a decent Design and a simple Revision.
For exploding shells, we use magegems. Magegems are immune to anti-magic and can store spells. We can load them up with Streamlined Fireballs to cause damage and flares to light up the enemy. After more research into magegems, we can instead load them up with Powerful Streamlined Fireballs. We've done a lot of research into fireballs and a decent amount of research into exploding magic crystals, so it should be plausible.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 25, 2017, 12:28:17 pm
Future Design: Crystalclad
The Crystalclad is a simple design on paper.
The "actual" hull is a thin [metal or wood] skeleton that could just barely float on its own. However, using the Crystalworks, the Crystalclad is primarily made out of the light yet extremely strong crystal. Against known Moskurg threats such as fire or ballistae bolts, the crystal seems invulnerable. Just like if a bolt hit steel, the hull only experiences mild deformation from most hits. It's completely fireproof as well.
The ship's upper deck is reserved for weaponry and the only crew outside is there to manage he weapons. Almost all of the crew stay inside the ship so the thick crysta hull can protect them from attacks as well.
Two steam engines power the Crystalclad, giving it the same if not a better speed than the fog-o-War while it has a full armament.
The Crystalclad is fit with a room housing a large amount of connected Magegems which distribute power throughout the ship to the steam engine and weapons via insulated crystal wiring.
The Crystalclad is a very large ship. Without an armament, it weighs as much as a fog-o-war but sits much higher in the water thanks to its design.
The Crystalclad can be configured to mount a HA1 or 4 HC1-E on mounts built to allow for east use of the onboard artillery.
That's just the tentative design. It's probably a bit overambitious and could be tuned down but the advantage in its design is that it's using all existing tech - steam engines, Magegems, cannons, and crystal. Its "breakthrough" is really just the engineering, which can be helped by the Crystalworks.
Post by: Andres on May 25, 2017, 01:17:03 pm
Future Design: CrystalcladHah!
The Crystalclad is a simple design on paper.
The "actual" hull is a thin [metal or wood] skeleton that could just barely float on its own. However, using the Crystalworks, the Crystalclad is primarily made out of the light yet extremely strong crystal.In other words, it's a crap boat that relies on crystals in order to not be crap. If something goes wrong with the crystal, the boat dies.
The ship's upper deck is reserved for weaponry and the only crew outside is there to manage he weapons. Almost all of the crew stay inside the ship so the thick crysta hull can protect them from attacks as well.A lot of crew is needed up top. Bringing in ammo, carrying wounded, manning all the guns, replacing dead crew members, getting firing angles, steering the ship, etc. If we want a minimal amount of crew getting fired upon, we should make it so that the guns AREN'T in the upper deck so people have less reason to go up there.
The Crystalclad is fit with a room housing a large amount of connected Magegems which distribute power throughout the ship to the steam engine and weapons via insulated crystal wiring.Crystal wiring which is known to disappear. You want our ship's mobility and firepower to rely on that to work.
The Crystalclad can be configured to mount a HA1 or 4 HC1-E on mounts built to allow for east use of the onboard artillery.And here's the kicker, mounting HA1s. You want to do all the things above and also make it capable of mounting such large pieces of artillery.
Let me try and make a crystalclad design.
Andres' Crystalclad: This ship is a ship we already have that's been given a lighter steam engine and crystal plating.
That's it. Just the armour and the lighter engine weight to compensate for the crystal's weight. It accomplishes the goal of greatly increasing our ships' survivability without risking failure on unnecessary complexity. More advanced designs can come after we get this out as a proof of concept and starting off point.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: helmacon on May 25, 2017, 01:31:01 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 25, 2017, 02:34:13 pm
It's not a crap host hat relies on crystal, it's a crystal boat. Keep in mind his is supposed to be after the Crystalworks. If it works then crystal will essentially just be another type of metal. Ships are made out of meta, wood, and now, they can be made out of crystal.
I'm not too sure about weapons inside the ship. It's a small thing but it does add to complexity regardless. But if others think it's necessary we could definitely have the weapons inside.
Crystal wiring disappearing is something which I still want to get another verdict from Evicted in its current state, and if we get permanent crystal then it shouldn't be a problem. Worst case scenario, just say "the steam engines are powered by Magegems input directly into slots on the engines."
HA1s is ambitious but it'd mean we could field extra-LOS weaponry st sea. It depends on the actual size of the HA1, but I'm seeing the Crystalclad as a really big tank-like ship. Carrying one HA1 seems within the realm of possibility.
The thing is, it's all possible. We're making a boat primarily out of crystal, making it bigger, then adding (maybe) Magegems. Like I said, the hardest part is just making a bigger boat. And that really shouldn't be hard, especially when we'll hopefully have a factory dedicated to making crystal. It's not like we're inventing new weapons or propulsion or crystal or anything in this boat.
EDIT: @Helmacon, an AAA Magegem has extraordinarily low amounts of power. We'd have to use bigger more expensive Magegems (they're easily handheld though) or revise the gems to have more power.
Making an AA powered rifle could be possible, but I'm honestly not too sure it'd have that much of an effect.
Post by: helmacon on May 25, 2017, 02:40:13 pm
Actually, let's make hand cannons. A fireball is more like a cannonball than a musket shot anyways.
Post by: Andres on May 25, 2017, 03:49:05 pm
I'm not too sure about weapons inside the ship. It's a small thing but it does add to complexity regardless. But if others think it's necessary we could definitely have the weapons inside.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
HA1s is ambitious but it'd mean we could field extra-LOS weaponry st sea. It depends on the actual size of the HA1, but I'm seeing the Crystalclad as a really big tank-like ship. Carrying one HA1 seems within the realm of possibility.Don't think of crystalclads as really large ships. That's two or three overhauls down the line. For the first generation of crystalclads, they should just be ships we have now plus some armour plating. Going after more on the very first go is greedy and impetuous.
Like I said, the hardest part is just making a bigger boat. And that really shouldn't be hard, especially when we'll hopefully have a factory dedicated to making crystal.This is bad thinking. Regular ships are made of wood and sailcloth. That a country has access to wood and sailcloth does not mean that making boats of significantly bigger size aren't major undertakings. It's not as simple as merely upscaling a current design, a bigger boat needs its own proper design.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 25, 2017, 03:58:02 pm
And the problem with organizing our cannons like that is the nature of the HC1-E - it's more-so artillery and has an upwards firing arc. It also limits our firing angles. The barrel should be pointing upwards from the top deck of our ship.
We'd need a way to do that while retaining easy firing angles.
And "ships we have now + armor plating" is literally a revision. Crystalclads should be bigger and carry more weapons in addition to serious crystal armor. It may not need to carry a HA1, but right now a fog-o-War can just barely carry a HC1-E.
Basically
1.) Mostly crystal with wooden frame (with anchored crystal it wouldn't be possible, but removing the crystal would make the ship just barely seaworthy or maybe even sink)
2.) Fit >1 cannon without constantly being in danger of sinking
3.) Retai speed.
Again, literally the only innovation is the size. The point of designs is to make new things. If you just want to add armor plating you can use a revision. I'm fine with not making a modern day battleship out of the bat, but don't undershoot so much please.
Post by: Andres on May 25, 2017, 04:13:12 pm
And the problem with organizing our cannons like that is the nature of the HC1-E - it's more-so artillery and has an upwards firing arc. It also limits our firing angles. The barrel should be pointing upwards from the top deck of our ship.
We'd need a way to do that while retaining easy firing angles.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
And "ships we have now + armor plating" is literally a revision. Crystalclads should be bigger and carry more weapons in addition to serious crystal armor. It may not need to carry a HA1, but right now a fog-o-War can just barely carry a HC1-E.I had no idea we could still only have one cannon on each ship. I thought we had more ever since we made them Expensive. Yeah, getting more cannons should definitely go into the design along with the armour.
Basically
1.) Mostly crystal with wooden frame (with anchored crystal it wouldn't be possible, but removing the crystal would make the ship just barely seaworthy or maybe even sink)
2.) Fit >1 cannon without constantly being in danger of sinking
3.) Retai speed.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on May 25, 2017, 04:48:55 pm
4.) A goddamn counter to Lucky Strike. (Cheaper Equalizer shell?)Is there some sort of problem with my antiluck wards? You keep asking for this and yet I have never seen a vote for them nor heard any protest about their flaws...
Crystalworks has a few major problems.
1 The magegems are a mistake. We burn our entire reserve of A batteries and we still have to send a wizard out to recharge them. It is basically throwing away our previous turn's design for nothing. If you want a ower room you need more, like a magic accumulator or something... We could probably do that in a revision of antimagic charms to have them pass the magic into a circuit that they can't access...
2 "having one circuit summoning precise crystal designs is inefficient and wasteful." is obviously untrue. This is magic, conjuration magic, it summons specific things in specific forms. That is what makes it better than reality. You want to replace magically poofing something into being exactly as you want it, which is what we are good at, with complex mechanisms which we are bad at. Also, instead of poofing a crystal into exactly the form you want, which is actually what crystals are good at in the real world, sort of, but this reshapes crystals. Crystals are crazy strong in a whole lot of ways, but they are also brittle, like, by definition they are a very specific structure.
3 This invents a whole new field of external crystal manipulation. Apparently it is easier to bend, remove, or twist crystal than to summon, say, a precise axe-head? Crystals do not bend, crystals are very sensitive to missing bits as structural weaknesses. Crystals CAN somewhat overcome thing by being malformed, they can have new crystals growing from old ones at an angle or something. Wroked crystals of any complexity will be weaker than summoned crystals of the same form.
4 It is mechanical. I already addressed this but the whole design is ridiculously complex. The conveyors are basically impossible. Just try to imagine the practicality of designing a conveyor. It is going to slide around and fall off its morings. It is going to sag and wobble and wear out and stretch. Conveyors are advanced future-tech of dreams. And then we have these modification circuits. We have no way of intelligently activating them at just the right moment, soo they are continuously active? So the conveyor needs to precisely move over them? not going to happen. Contemporary factories produce lots of things that don't meet specifications, this factory will produce only things that do not meet specifications. Oh, and we have a random steam-engine, just because wasting magic is fun... You want this to work you need to rip out the automation or start producing magically intelligent mechanisms. A team of workers could, maybe, move crystal blocks from one modifier to another and activate it with the precision of someone who is supremely bored. The conveyor is just not going to wokrk at all. It is a single design, probably a pure research design. Unless, that is, that we want to explain exactly how to make a conveyor work with ye-olde materials.
5 It makes no sense. We are replacing one energy with another, but no explanation of how we are doing it? Extracting "natural" essence from the mundane world and then converting it into a pattern that is compatible with magic would be a design by itself, relying on a completely ew extraction discipline. We get the antiluck wards now, then dedicate a whole design to making wards that drain the world's natural essence and direct it into crystal slabs, which can be used as tower shields or flat armour plating. THEN we can move onto somethign else. A present all we are doing is taking a chunk of crystal, which is just as much summoned as the old hunk of crystal, and replacing one type of magic with another. There is not part of that which makes them either permanet nor dispel proof.
6 It takes away the greatest advantage of conjuration. Conjuration is great because of its ability to be replaced. A crystalclad ship will be very fragile. Crystals are great at holding a shape, they will be very resistant to being penetrated, but they are prone to shattering. Our crystals are very resilient in this respect, but they are still brittle, they will crunch and chunks will fall out. Crystalclads should have plates of summoned crystals protecting them, that can be replaced when damaged. An easy task for summoned crystals, an impractical task for permanent crystals.
7 it is a redundant dead end. It only applies to crystals. The conveyor might help production if it worked(it won't). The anchoring might help other conjurations if we didn't mind preparing them in advance(wasps and smoke are not particularly portable...). The crystal manipulators might actually be useful for making crystal mecha if they were protable(they aren't) and if crystal cound be bent by them(it can't) or they could make a crystal joint rotate(but that would be telekinesis...). The crystals are already redunant with our metal bonus aside form speciality uses. If you really want this to work then go figure out how to make mithril, we can probably just stick magic into molten electrum... The crystals have advantages over metal, but metal has its own advantage. Crystals don't bend...
Even if the crystalworks worked, it would only give us one material. Crystals are good, but they have flaws. The strength and lightness is wonderful, but the brittleness will really show its flaws against heavy impacts like artillery balls. A crystalclad that can't repair itself is doomed. And these crystals are dead crystals. They are specifically more "efficient" than magically forming crystal directly, which is fortunately false because it would doom our attempts to have intelligent crystral entities that could heal themselves by being fed magic...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 25, 2017, 05:18:22 pm
1.) What?
2.) It's conjuration magic, and we're industrializing it.
3.) When industrializing it, yes.
4.) Conveyors are fluff and easily possible. We already harness mechanical power. To rotate things. If Evicted isn't comfortable with that then he can say we have orphans or something move stuff from circuit to circuit.
5.) If anything, I go too much into fluff. I'm not going to provide detailed explanations of how this application of magic works.
6.) If crystal gets damaged in the field new crystal can be summoned to replace it. Sure, the new crystal is magic-dependent but it's no worse than the rest and can be replaced properly later.
7.) The conveyor isn't a central part at all. The point is we're industrializing and mass-producing crystal instead of having skilled wizards slowly summon exact pieces. I already covered a few of the many possible uses of crystal, we can revise the Crystalworks to add more features, this does not suddenly make everyone forget how to summon crystal, and to be completely honest I don't really get the second half of your point here.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 25, 2017, 06:02:08 pm
Jungle
The commander here is certain they'll be able to push Moskurg back next year, with the bonus from having naval supremacy here. Still, it'd be nice to have flying mages of our own, if you could make a falcon large enough to put a saddle on.
Mountains
The mountains are secure, and the fortified position, full compliment of men, and cold bonus means Moskurg will have a hard time regaining their foothold. The theatre commander is happy with our current armament, although being able to shoot down Moskurg wizards more easily would be nice.
Plains
Explosive ammo would be key here - if we could increase the effect of the HA1, we'd have a much more solid footing to fight from. Flares are...sufficient for basic coordination, though we're losing too many apprentices from spotting duties. Maybe one day an apprentice will live long enough to complete his 2-year tour and return to farming, but that's yet to happen.
Seas
Their carpets are a concern, but luckily they're so short-ranged they can't act on their own - and the falcons are nice at keeping them away, too. Since we're faster than them, being able to shield our ships and increase survivability would be welcome and firmly secure our lead here. Better communication wouldn't hurt, too.
Post by: Andres on May 25, 2017, 06:24:21 pm
GM, how well can our magegems hold Streamlined Fireballs? Not Powerful Streamlined Fireballs, I mean the old version of the spell that's just as cheap but has less power.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 25, 2017, 06:27:40 pm
How many flares is a Streamlined Fireball worth, do you think? I'm honestly not sure, and I'd appreciate your feedback on what you think would be fair.
Post by: Andres on May 25, 2017, 06:33:19 pm
Streamlined Fireball: Hurls small balls of fireThey seem pretty equivalent to me, both of them being small fireballs and all. Just that where one uses its power to cause damage, the other uses its power to shine brightly and in different colours. Same amount of power either way.
Flare: A small, harmless fireball.
Speaking of which, do we have a more powerful Flare based on the Powerful Streamlined Fireball to create greater amounts of illumination or would that require a Revision?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 25, 2017, 06:38:46 pm
We could do Flaregems - Magegems with flare circuitry? Or we might just be better off making a radio device like the Delegator design I posted earlier. Or we could upgrade the falcons to future-proof them and make their carpets even less effective.
My vision for the nearish-future is Crystalclads and wireless communication. Crazy probably-not-that-good idea: Make mounted eagles (one mage fits on an eagle?) then make a carrier ship for them. Radios (like the Delegator) would allow for unprecedented cohesion in our squads, allowing for more independent battles and less reliance on solid bomb-able battle lines. It allows for better, less-dangerous artillery spotting and just helps a lot in general.
Post by: Andres on May 25, 2017, 06:44:19 pm
So for revision, I'm thinking plentiful explosive ammunition as a straight-upgrade to our existing shellsYou're crazy if you think we can get explosive ammunition with a Revision instead of a Design.
a better flare (can we somehow gradually revise it to a more effective communication tool?), or Crystal Circuits. Maybe Crystalworks?Our flare is fine and needs no refinement. Many other things we have need refinement and I'm annoyed you'd consider skipping over them for flares of all things. Crystal circuits are a bad idea and crystalworks would need another Design to work no matter what, so better use our Revision for stuff it should be used for.
For our Revision we should either make the frost towers cheaper or make our gold etchings cheaper. The former gives us a bonus in all theatres of war except sea while the other makes our steam engine and cannons cheaper. Either way, it's a great deal of benefit for a Revision and they are overdue on them.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 25, 2017, 06:51:15 pm
I still don't think frost tower revisions are a good idea. Maybe a design to make an "ultimate" frost tower kind of like the meteor design I had earlier, but even then. The idea of at flare revision is pretty simple - improve our communication without having to use a design on a new method of communication that probably won't even work at first. If we could find a way to make our Flares better - less dangerous, more precise, less obvious for Moskurg, etc., then we could use a revision to do that instead of a design on a radio-like device.
Post by: Andres on May 25, 2017, 06:58:24 pm
Crystal Circuits is literally there to make gold etchings cheaper. That's it; that's the entire point of the revision. I'm saying trying it again because if we do the fluff right, we can get a bonus.It doesn't matter what the crystal circuits are supposed to do, we know for a fact that they are a poor choice for them. Let's just go for the Revision with nothing more than "make them cheaper". We get no bonus but it's better than stumbling around in the dark or worse, doing something that has been explicitly stated not to work.
I still don't think frost tower revisions are a good idea. Maybe a design to make an "ultimate" frost tower kind of like the meteor design I had earlier, but even then.Getting twice the amount of frost towers creates twice as much cold. That is a great advantage for just a Revision. Can we please, please just try it? This is exactly like the MC16 back in Arms Race at this point. It was a long time before it was made cheap because a large amount of dumb people thought it wouldn't do anything. (I say they're dumb and not merely wrong because making them Cheap with an Expense Credit gave us a significant advantage but they continued to believe making it permanently Cheap wouldn't do anything.)
The frost towers are a great design and would give us a significant advantage if they were cheaper. It was true the last time they were made cheaper and it'll be true this time too.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 25, 2017, 06:59:49 pm
Post by: Andres on May 25, 2017, 07:02:40 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 25, 2017, 07:08:02 pm
Why do I want to try again at crystal circuits? For that bonus. We tried crystal circuits and we have experience; not just any experience, but direct experience with that thing. This isn't like "Well we can make light so we can make a laser" but rather "Well we have experience making light so we have better luck at making light". This is plus the probable benefits of the Crystalworks. Yes, we failed last time, but it's not like the revision is "TRY CRYSTAL CIRCUITS AGAIN". Rather, it'll be a new way of achieving crystal circuits using what we learned last time.
I would post a revision now to give an example, but I want to wait to see if there's anything from the Crystalworks that I can capitalize on in crystal circuits.
As for the frost towers, I'm sorry, but I just don't like it. Frost towers are perhaps the most boring item in the game. I'm sure revising them would make them more effective, but not anywhere near effective to justify for me using a revision on frost towers.
Though while Evicted's here...
Evicted, about how heavy is a HA1? At least in comparison to HC1-E's? I'm curious how possible it is to make a ship fitting a HA1.
Post by: RAM on May 25, 2017, 07:11:57 pm
You are making an insane amount of assumptions based on your own non-canon fluff, RAM.1 magegems are very expensive and still need a wizard to charge them, and they provide very little magical charge. You are talking about mass-scale summoning, magical transferrence, running a steam engine, running who knows how many magical circuits. This won't keep it charged for long enough to make it worth not having a wizard full-time. It is a mistake to include the current-generation mage-gems in this design. It just makes it more expensive with no benefits.
1.) What?
2.) It's conjuration magic, and we're industrializing it.
3.) When industrializing it, yes.
4.) Conveyors are fluff and easily possible. We already harness mechanical power. To rotate things. If Evicted isn't comfortable with that then he can say we have orphans or something move stuff from circuit to circuit.
5.) If anything, I go too much into fluff. I'm not going to provide detailed explanations of how this application of magic works.
6.) If crystal gets damaged in the field new crystal can be summoned to replace it. Sure, the new crystal is magic-dependent but it's no worse than the rest and can be replaced properly later.
7.) The conveyor isn't a central part at all. The point is we're industrializing and mass-producing crystal instead of having skilled wizards slowly summon exact pieces. I already covered a few of the many possible uses of crystal, we can revise the Crystalworks to add more features, this does not suddenly make everyone forget how to summon crystal, and to be completely honest I don't really get the second half of your point here.
2 It is conjuration magic. Industrialising it means automating the casting of it. We could easily mass-produce this stuff just by running circuits of our existing spells. The whole assembly-line nonsense is just trying to get assembly0line benefits. Assembly0lines have no benefits to conjuration magic because you can skip over all the hassles that make an assembly line benefitious by producing a perfect end-result in a single step. Assembly-lines break up a complex hjob with many steps that all need skills and equipment, and splitting them up into simple jobs that anyone can learn. This is already a single step process, and a simple one at that, once you get over the complexity of applying magic. Breaking it up into smaller steps is just taking away good and adding bad.
3 In all instances, no. You have one device for, what, making a pole? You need to keep it steady the whole way and not over-extend and cut off the axe-head. Our conveyor definitely isn't that precise. If we can get a circuit that repeatedly summons(yet another new complicated thing to research) new blocks then we can make a more complex circuit to repeatedly make a whole axe. If we make a whole axe then we get a working axe. If we do it in parts then we need numerous circuits, all of which need to be aligned with the block or else we have a malformed axe, and the conveyor will not be that precise. We currently have precisely zero spells that change an existing crystal structure. This is not even conjuration at this point. It is a completely new field. Now, maybe, if you wanted to have one thing summon a pol and another summon an axe-head, but then you have to align them properly to get the axe-head to be summoned perfectly around the pole or else it will be wobbly or the summoning will be trying to summon over the top of the pole.
4 find a conveyor from the time and I will believe that they are possible... Woven fabric is all garbage. It will stretch and become unusable almost immediately, and catch on everything. Leather might work, but you need pieces large enough, which means joins, which again means catching on everything, and it will slip when a thick piece meets a thin piece, and leather also stretches, and needs maintenance to keep it flexible. Chain-mail might work. It would catch like crazy but the fact that everything is a concise loop would help, maybe enough. Metal will tend to bend, effectively stretching it though, and a conveyor needs to be tight, and it really needs a pattern for gears to act upon, although chains might work for that too if you don't mind stopping the thing on a regular basis and keeping it very slow. Crystal chains wouldn't bend. Although you might lose links, actually you would almost certaily lose links around the gears. If you could summon the crystals then you could replace the lost links, but relying on the crystalworks that would be impossible. Also, it points out another problem with the crystalworks... I really can't see it working to create chain-mail. Chain-mail is really important if you want flexible crystals without resorting to studding, so that is a pretty big loss if we really want to make use out of the crystals.
5 I almost certainly go too far into fluff, but you make absoultely no effort to explain why this energy would be immune to antimagic, nor why it doesn't want to go back to wherever it came from. You say what is wrong with the old, that our wizards are not allowed to make any permanent enchantments, which bodes poorly for giant birds, but never describe any properties at all for this new energy that swoops in and solves all our problems. If wizard energy is really this completely unique thing, and there is all this other energy around that is just normal and has no restrictions, then let's have our wizards switch to that better energy and not bother with this process at all!
6 We are talking about surface damage and extensive cracking. It is useless to summon more, the whole panel needs to be replaced, that means removing the old before adding the new. And there isn't really any way to remove crystal without damaging any connected crystal without very slowly grinding it away. Replacing worked crystals would be impractical in combat, or at sea...
7 The redundant and dead-end part is that it only applies to crystals. The conveyor is not really relevant because it won't work without better materials and would be inferior even if it did work. We do not need wizards to make complex designs any more than we need wizards to make simple designs. If we can do one with a circuit then we can do the other with a circuit. There is no advantage to simplifying it. We can make a small number of complex circuits, and then blast away with them for all eternity, only replacing them when we have a new design, or we can make a lot of simple circuits, still need to add new ones to make up for the changes in the new designs(unless they are universal manipulators, in which case that is the design we want rather than all this other paraphernalia) and then blast away at them forever. There is no advantage to the latter, and the extra magic needed to make a big thing and then add complexity to it rather than just making the small thing with the complexity pre-installed.
The real point of point seven is that we have cheap metal. The crystal is very similar to metal, and metal actually has some advantages. We want something better than crystal someday, and that would mean overhaulng the crystalworks to take advantage of it, assuming that the crystalworks is even capable of being compatible...
8 It only produces one thing. To make a different thing you need to realign the whole mess all over again. It would be easier to make a completely new large-scale circuit, so you gain nothing here.
9 It is ridiculously complex. Here is a list of new technologies:
Crystal manipulation: We have never altered extant crystals before.
Magical essence transferrence: We have pulled magic out of the air before, and even stored it in compatible receptacles, but that was ll done using purpose-specific materials. This is the unprecedented move of finding a specific enegry in nature, and a specific energy in a material, to which that material's existence is bound, and swapping the two without breaking the spell that was reliant upon the energy.
Mechanisms: The conveyor is right out, no current conveyor would work and making a contemporary one is implausible. We might be able to make something work with clamps and vices? Pulling things around big wheels? We need to keep the things in perfect position and, well, it just wouldn't work. We can do impossible things with magic, this is not magic, it won't work.
Repeat-casting curcuits: Our circuits so far as described as maintenance. There is no indication that I am aware of that they can actually cast spells. It is great as a casting tools, and throw in some mage-gems and they can keep a device running, but actually starting a spell? I believe that we still need wizards for that. Which is why our cannons should still need wizards, they need someone to produce the fireball that triggers it.
Whatever else that I am too worn out to think of... I really doubt that it is just these 4...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 25, 2017, 07:27:13 pm
1.) Magegems are not very expensive. We have three sizes, and only the biggest one is Very Expensive. The Crystalworks is a singular creation and can have an apprentice or two make routine visits to keep it charged
2.) Making non-canon assumptions to break apart my fluff.
3.) Making non-canon assumptions to break apart my fluff.
4.) Making assumptions to break apart my fluff. And we have magical circuits that'll summon crystals. Why does this make chainmail impossible? We're not restricted to rigid machinery here. Also:
4.) Conveyors are fluff and easily possible. We already harness mechanical power. To rotate things. If Evicted isn't comfortable with that then he can say we have orphans or something move stuff from circuit to circuit.
5.)
Perhaps the most important aspect of the Crystalworks is the nature of the crystal. It turns out that when a human summons crystal, they "spend" a bit of their total magic potential and put it into the crystal. This magical energy can't stay outside of its natural host (the summoning wizard) for too long, and thus eventually returns, dispelling the crystal. Maintaining it simply resets the timer by replacing the "old" energy with "new" energy. The method of production using circuits simply creates the energy without forcing it to rely on "borrowed" magic, meaning the crystal lasts forever. This means that the crystal also can't be dispelled by Moskurg anti-magic because there's no magic to dispel in the new crystal.
6.) Summon crystal in the gaps. It's not that hard.
7.) I'm responding to your "real point" line here. Crystal is slightly stronger than steel and a lot lighter and we can summon it in the field. We can use it for many things and it's not like once we make a Crystalworks we can do zero changes to Crystal afterwards.
8.)
New lines of circuits and conveyor belts can be added to the factory as needed as we design more crystal-based items.
9.)
Crystal manipulation: That's literally what we're doing with our crystal-based spells.
"Magical essence transference": A.) This is because we're summoning with circuits. B.) This is the main point of the crystalworks.
Mechanisms:
4.) Conveyors are fluff and easily possible. We already harness mechanical power. To rotate things. If Evicted isn't comfortable with that then he can say we have orphans or something move stuff from circuit to circuit.Hell, we're already powering machinery that bores rifled barrels.
Repeat-Casting Circuits: Our circuits can do a lot of things, going above just maintenance. This is both inferred pretty much every time Evicted talks about circuits, and we have statements like these:
Hmmm...alright, let's say an A magegem could hold enough magic to power 2 flares, if you had some circuit design that could convert the energy into a flare spell and fire it off.
I really hope this isn't coming off as rude, but I'm not particularly fond of just letting these kinds of attacks on my stuff go unanswered. I'd appreciate it if you could just PM me this stuff and I could also respond by PM, since the main reason I'm rebutting your arguments here is so other people don't get the wrong idea.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 25, 2017, 07:33:15 pm
Evicted, about how heavy is a HA1? At least in comparison to HC1-E's? I'm curious how possible it is to make a ship fitting a HA1.
Hmmm...let's say that one of your ships can carry a HC1-E without fear of sinking, despite the heavy weight the steam engines add. I'll say that an HA1 is as heavy as three HC1-E's.
Rolling Design for crystalworks now.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 25, 2017, 07:46:35 pm
Though elaborately named, the "Crystalworks" is a workshop in the capitol designed to churn out crystal items at an amazing pace. Though crystal designs are usually too difficult for apprentices to cast by themselves (aside from a few notable exceptions), we have found a way around their inherent limited abilities to allow them to contribute to the production process. Our apprentices have been reduced to little more than glorified powersources, charging arrays of magegems that in turn power gold-etched circuits strung together with thick crystal power conduits. These circuits in turn produce a pre-inscribed crystal design written into the circuitry. These circuits are interchangeable, able to be slotted in and out of the assembly line as needed. They are a bit slower at producing crystals than a regular mage, and grow in size alarmingly quick as the crystal item they're set to produce increases in complexity, but we're able to set entire arrays of crystal designs down at once that is ultimately faster than what a mage could produce on his own.
These crystals also exhibit a unique quality - they do not fade. Unlike man-made crystals which dissolve into aether after a month with a gemstone anchor, machine-made crystals remain indefinitely. That, or we just haven't waited long enough to see one fade away. The downside is that machine-made crystals tend to be a bit more brittle, but a small decrease in quality is to be expected when mass-manufacturing.
All future crystal designs drop by an entire expense level and gain a mild fragility factor. The Crystalworks, despite the high initial cost, is relatively cheap to maintain. Expensive.
Post by: Andres on May 25, 2017, 07:57:53 pm
Quote
1 - Cheaper circuits: Andres
Makes our cannons cheaper, makes our steam engines cheaper, makes the crystalworks cheaper.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 25, 2017, 08:05:22 pm
Also, how useful is machinemade crystal for things like armor or reinforcement for our designs and soldiers, and how does it compare to steel?
Revision: Powered Crystal Circuits
When we last tried crystal circuits, it was discovered that the routing of magic through the crystal-based circuits would case damage to the crystal, rendering the circuit inoperable. We've discovered that this is due to a sudden change in magical currents shifting the material, causing those hairline fractures.
But we've discovered a way to fix this - by incorporating a cheap AAA-sized Magegem in our circuits, we can introduce an extremely minor but steady baseline magical energy level across the circuit. This isn't enough to actually operate the circuit, but it drastically reduces the extremes experienced by the circuit. It was these extremes that caused the fractures and damage before.
The AAA-sized magegem is tiny and cheap, so the benefits of crystal circuits isn't hampered at all by its inclusion. The power output required of it is extremely tiny and we figure most circuits could potentially even last months before running out of power. Though the magegem saps negligible amounts of power input from other sources to keep running, so they don't require any special maintenance or attention.
With this change, we can try Crystal Circuits (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7463272#msg7463272) again, using all the experience we learned from both that attempt and the Crystalworks to get a much better chance of succeeding.
TL;DR: Try Crystal Circuits again. I included the link above to the original revision and the actual TL;DR for Crystal Circuits is there. Basically, this means less heavy, more reliable, and cheaper circuits. And should even have a bonus! Should!
If anyone wants to, here's a revision to make crystal less brittle. It's completely understandable to not want to do this since it does mean no practical revision this turn. I do want to do it at some point though. Probably. Depending on exactly how brittle machine crystal is.
Revision: Crystal Polymers (Tougher Crystal)
By making some tweaks to our crystal circuits and spells, we can change the structure of our crystal. The internal structure of crystal is changed to be laid out in a more "weaved" fashion, with interconnecting "stands" of tiny crystal connecting to other pieces. This change in the structure makes crystal a lot less brittle, as with the less rigid format it can't "snap" or break as easily.
With this change, our Crystal is much more tougher than before. It still shares the actual hardness and every other property of crystal, but it's no longer nearly as brittle!
TL;DR: Fancy fluffy way of saying "less brittle crystals". With good rolls, machine crystal could potentially even be better than natural crystal before this revision. Potentially.
I'm not particularly versed in materials science, so feel free to tell me if this is blatantly wrong. Since this is fiction, I'm okay with a "little wrong" though.
Quote
1 - Cheaper circuits: Andres
1 - Powered Crystal Circuits (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7465740#msg7465740): Chiefwaffles
0 - Crystal Polymers (Tougher Crystal) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7465740#msg7465740):
Post by: RAM on May 25, 2017, 08:11:24 pm
I really hope this isn't coming off as rude, but I'm not particularly fond of just letting these kinds of attacks on my stuff go unanswered. I'd appreciate it if you could just PM me this stuff and I could also respond by PM, since the main reason I'm rebutting your arguments here is so other people don't get the wrong idea.The sole and only reason that I am arguing on this topic is so that other people can correctly understand the situation. I would never bother with P.M. in this way, there would be no value to it. I should like to remind you that we are here to choose designs and as such our designs are subject to criticism. If I have been critical of anything other than your proposal then I apologise for that. Fortunately Evicted gave us layered circuits instead, which is an extremely plausible idea, and we just got free persistence from the aether. Only time will tell if this also means antimagic immunity, as we lack access to enemy antimagic with which to test it.
Crystal fire-plates
We produce fire-resistant plates of crystal and spread them around ship-decks, tents, gunner positions, and whatever else to provide a disposable surface that can be thrown away to remove the fire.
Crystal Barrels and Shells
Use the magic of crystals to make all our cannon-barrels and cannon-shells compatible with each other in terms of size. Send spares to replace the ones that break...
Manually-detonated fireballs
They will strengthen their wind to stop our birds.
Shot-shells
Pack our cannon-shells with shot to spread their blast over an area.
Quote
1 - Cheaper circuits: Andres
1 - Powered Crystal Circuits (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7465740#msg7465740): Chiefwaffles
0 - Crystal Polymers (Tougher Crystal) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7465740#msg7465740):
0 Crystal fire-plates:
0 Crystal Barrels and Shells:
0 Manually-detonated fireballs:
0 Shot-shells:
Post by: helmacon on May 25, 2017, 08:14:13 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on May 25, 2017, 08:15:02 pm
Will we need to revise our Crystal Axes and Caltrops to use the Crystalworks' crystal or will they do that automatically?
Also, how useful is machinemade crystal for things like armor or reinforcement for our designs and soldiers, and how does it compare to steel?
You'd need to revise your existing designs to work with your new manufacturing system, as they'd need their own circuit boards and whatnot.
I don't know how useful they are. I haven't rolled for anything like that because you haven't tried anything like that.
Post by: RAM on May 25, 2017, 08:19:00 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 25, 2017, 08:21:45 pm
@helmacon: That'd probably fix it but seems a bit too ambitious for revision? My method is basically just adding in a Cheap AAA Magegem. You know those capacitors on motherboards that keep the system clock and run practically forever? That's the kind of thing I'm thinking about.
And I'm conflicted about the state of Crystal Axes + Crystal Caltrops. Is it worth a revision? The Crystal Axes would automatically go down a level in expense thanks to the crystalworks and should be roughly as effective, and the caltrops should mostly do their job (though like RAM said, they do have that danger-sense thingy) but is it worth using a revision on it?
Or maybe we could try designing a new standard issue crystal weapon, but I don't really know how we could improve on our standard issue weapons other than "make it out of crystal."
Post by: evictedSaint on May 25, 2017, 08:45:55 pm
Post by: Andres on May 25, 2017, 09:04:35 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on May 25, 2017, 09:06:02 pm
sure, whatever. same brittality as hardened steel.
Post by: RAM on May 25, 2017, 09:19:59 pm
Magic Lance: [1, 3, 6] You already have experience conjuring simple elemental forms and substances, so this provides a basis for your work on conjuring 'magic lances' to assist your men. Following the description of your intended spell, you and your fellow mages spend several months working on how to conjure a solid, strong material able to form the basis for lances to improve your cavalry charge. Eventually you devise a complex, draining spell that summons a lance of shimmering crystal that will last for about an hour before dissipating into the aether. The crystal is strong, hard and has surprising tensile strength, and focuses into a deadly point at its business end. It is on par with a lance made of steel, but substantially lighter.
The only problem is that you currently are unable to summon any lance wider than one quarter of an inch in diameter. In its current form it has little practical use in a mounted charge, as even with its strength it will still snap on impact with such a slender cross-section, although some other use could be conceivable.
It is now the Revision Phase.
Post by: Andres on May 25, 2017, 09:40:09 pm
When crafted into a weapon, the result is a blade as fine as a razor blade, harder than steel, lighter than a feather.This was because after we made the lances we developed crystal technology and ended up making it better than steel.
Revision: Crystal Magic Template [6!]
Our understanding of crystal magic has increased, giving us a bonus to developing that line of magic further.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 25, 2017, 09:45:16 pm
Andres, what do you think of the Powered Crystal Circuits revision?
The entire idea is to accomplish "cheaper circuits" as well as the goals behind the original Crystal Circuits while getting bonuses in the rolls thanks to our experience with crystals, the Crystalworks, and most importantly the first attempt. I can change the fluff if wanted, because the only point is "try Crystal Circuits again using knowledge from last time but with a new approach to the one problem."
Post by: Andres on May 25, 2017, 09:53:04 pm
Huh, and that design was a 4 in effectiveness.I think badly of it. We've been told that crystal is a fundamentally bad material to use when making circuits and developing crystal circuits further would be counterproductive at best. Imagine if it was this instead:
Andres, what do you think of the Powered Crystal Circuits revision?
The entire idea is to accomplish "cheaper circuits" as well as the goals behind the original Crystal Circuits while getting bonuses in the rolls thanks to our experience with crystals, the Crystalworks, and most importantly the first attempt. I can change the fluff if wanted, because the only point is "try Crystal Circuits again using knowledge from last time but with a new approach to the one problem."
Quote
The entire idea is to accomplish "functioning doom laser" as well as the goals behind the original Radio Doom Laser while getting bonuses in the rolls thanks to our experience with radios, Radar, and most importantly the first attempt. I can change the fluff if wanted, because the only point is "try Radio Doom Laser again using knowledge from last time but with a new approach to the one problem."Radio is a fundamentally bad EM wavelength to make a doom laser out of and that won't change no matter how much it's developed.
Assuming crystal circuits are possible - and it's been stated it isn't - then they'll be more difficult to develop than non-crystal circuits. And again, that's assuming it's possible at all.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 25, 2017, 09:53:22 pm
You know what would be nice now?
Mass-Produced(and working) Equalizer: We've worked out how to use our Crystalworks and new manufacturing tecniques to mass-produce Equalizer shells that are also far less prone to failure.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 25, 2017, 10:17:04 pm
Revision: Crystal Circuitry [1]From the revision post for Crystal Circuitry, we can conclude that the flaw with crystal circuitry is simple: Crystal isn't malleable and thus changes in heat will break it. Powered Crystal Circuitry should fix that.
Crystals can be used for circuitry, it seems - they're just not a very good choice.
We can conjure crystals at very precise sizes, angles, and thicknesses thanks to our heavy investment into the stuff, and though the magical energy can flow through the hair-width crystal structure under correct circumstances, it invariably breaks. Running the circuit produces a very small amount of heat, and for a malleable metal like gold that's fine - it can flex very slightly as it expands and contracts. Normally it's not enough to disrupt the circuit, but for a ridged crystal structure even a slight amount of force is enough to induce hairline fractures that disrupt the flow of magic. So, we've discovered we can use crystals to direct the flow of magic, but it's not effective to use it for magical circuitry, let alone circuitry on devices like the HA1 or the steam recycler.
To compare it to your analogy, it'd be
Quote
The entire idea is to accomplish "functioning doom laser" as well as the goals behind the original Doom Laser while getting bonuses in the rolls thanks to our experience with lasers, large weapons, and most importantly the first attempt. I can change the fluff if wanted, because the only point is "try Doom Laser again using knowledge from last time but with a new approach to the one problem."It's one flaw that makes crystal unfit for circuits. If we fix this flaw, then it works.
But how about this?
Crystal-Nickel Circuitry - Embed nickel with bits of crystal to make it "magically conductive". The ""alloy"" is able to function in circuits while still remaining malleable and thus fit for use in circuits. Additionally, the melting point of nickel is much higher than that of gold, making it less prone to melting under stress in operation or from Moskurger fire.
Cheaper, lighter, and more reliable. Makes use of our metal bonus, and still benefits from general experience in tinkering with circuit designs. We can apply lessons we learned in materials for circuits here.
Post by: Andres on May 25, 2017, 10:47:58 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on May 25, 2017, 11:26:23 pm
Personally, I feel like auto regenerative Crystal tissue is the best way to fix our Crystal circuitsThat makes sense.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 25, 2017, 11:29:46 pm
@Andres: Alright.
Revision: Crystal-Nickel Circuitry
One day, while one of the project directors was looking at our piles of unused metal while reading over the parchment relating to the failed Crystal Circuitry project, he had an idea.
Crystal is magically conductive. We know that and are even using it to transport magical energy when not using it in circuits. But the problem is that it by itself doesn't work in circuits, as it's too brittle. The only metal we know of that truly works with circuits is gold - it transports magical energy just like crystal while remaining malleable enough to not disrupt the circuit with changes in temperature. But gold is heavy, expensive, and unreliable.
So what if we made our own metal?
The Crystal-Nickel alloy is created by embedding nickel (which we have large amounts of and are not using anyways) with crystal. This makes a largely nickel material, but that can conduct magical energy. The crystal-nickel alloy remains malleable and has a much higher melting temperature than that of gold, meaning it shouldn't melt under stress such as the circuitry in our HA1s and any of our circuitry on fire thanks to Moskurger fire bombs. It's cheap, thanks to our metal supply and plentiful crystal. And it works. It conducts energy just as well as crystal but without fracturing.
Crystal-Nickel alloy is only really useful in circuits, but it works great in circuits. It's more reliable, it's much cheaper, and much lighter. Anything using magic circuitry should be lighter, cheaper and reliable as well. Our HA1s should have an improved fire rate thanks to no more melting circuits. All our designs will become more resilient as Moskurger fire bombs will no longer be able to melt the circuitry. Our HA1s should be cheaper after removing the large amounts of gold originally required, and lighter. Our steam engines will be lighter and cheaper with no more heavy and expensive gold-based circuits. The Crystalworks will become easier to maintain as the large volumes of circuitry no longer requires gold.
Crystal-Nickel alloy is used instead of gold in our circuits, with obvious benefits. Higher melting point, much cheaper, and much lighter. Anything that uses our circuits should benefit to some degree.
Our last attempt at tinkering with circuits has revealed much in the way the material interacts with the circuit's functions, and our general experience with crystal manipulation and the Crystalworks should help here.
TL;DR
- Increases fire rate + reliability of HA1s (gold circuitry melts when firing too fast)
- Decreases expense of HA1 + HC1-E + future circuit designs (HA1 uses tons of gold circuitry and gold is expensive. EDIT: Apparently HC1-E too, as I'm told the gold is the last expensive component.)
- Decreases weight of steam engine, HA1, HC1-E, and anything else using gold circuitry. (Gold is heavy. Remove gold then designs' weight decrease.)
- Cheaper Crystalworks? (Crystalworks uses a lot of circuits. Cheaper circuits means cheaper crystalworks.)
If anyone thinks I went overboard with the fluff parts in a way that would hurt the revision, just lemme know. I'm adding Andres' vote for it, but he's obviously free to remove it if something changed between my last post and this one.
Quote
2 - Crystal-Nickel Circuits (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7465888#msg7465888): Chiefwaffles, Andres
0 - Crystal Polymers (Tougher Crystal) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7465740#msg7465740):
0 Crystal fire-plates:
0 Crystal Barrels and Shells:
0 Manually-detonated fireballs:
0 Shot-shells:
EDIT: Changed benefits so that it said HC1-E is cheaper too, based on what Andres said.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 26, 2017, 02:54:25 am
We use the crystalworks to make the existing weapon for all our troops, now in a form that can not be dispelled but with the same powerful cutting edge.
Simple, uses the crystalworks, we can see how effective stable crystal is at resisting anti magic and equips our troops to destroy in hand to hand. They have no close combat weapon to defeat our armor and their armor will not block the crystal cutting edge.
Post by: Andres on May 26, 2017, 08:12:08 am
Decreases expense of HA1 + future circuit designs (HA1 uses tons of gold circuitry and gold is expensive. Maybe expense of HC1-E too, but it uses less and its expense didn't change when we added gold to it.)IIRC, GM said that making circuits cheaper would make the HC1-Es cheaper. It's the final Expensive component they have, and after that we'd have one for every wizard, mage, and apprentice in our army.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 26, 2017, 11:48:27 am
Post by: andrea on May 26, 2017, 02:38:30 pm
Quote
3 - Crystal-Nickel Circuits (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7465888#msg7465888): Chiefwaffles, Andres, Andrea
0 - Crystal Polymers (Tougher Crystal) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7465740#msg7465740):
0 Crystal fire-plates:
0 Crystal Barrels and Shells:
0 Manually-detonated fireballs:
0 Shot-shells:
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 27, 2017, 04:16:56 am
Future Design: SBP2 "Crystalclad"
The Crystalclad is a marvel of Arstotzkan engineering, making use of many of our innovations to this day in order to create the most fearsome ship on the sea.
The entire ship is made out of crystal straight from the Crystalworks. Earlier designs had a inner skeleton made out of wood or steel, but as we have plentiful strong lasting crystal, there's no point to weaken the ship with unnecessary materials. The crystal hull makes the ship nearly impervious to any known form of Moskurg weaponry. Crystal is unimpacted by fire bombs, and ballista bolts will largely just scratch the surface. In the rare event of critical damage, any old
The ship has two decks - one inside and one outside. The upper deck is sparsely visited by crew, and is largely used only by sentries and for loading/unloading cargo and people onto the ship at port. The inner deck is where the cargo is stored, the ship is run, the crew lives, the steam engines reside, etc. etc.. This further increases the protectiveness of the new crystal hull - fire may still be particularly damaging to humans even if it doesn't damage the ship, but keeping the crew inside the ship protects them from Moskurger attacks.
Between the middle and back of the inner deck resides the "weapons bay". The weapons bay is slightly raised upwards to the rest of the main deck, and has an opening bay door at the top allowing for fitting in new weapons and firing outwards from. The weapons bay has configurable mounts for weapons. The goal is to fit an armament of three HC1-Es or one HA1 here. Cannons and artillery fire outward from the weapons bay which can be closed as needed. The extreme majority of Crystalclads will be holding HC1-Es for closer-combat, but a few will be delegated artillery ships using HA1s to support the rest.
Armaments can be changed on a whim, as it's just a matter of moving the artillery in and out of an opened weapons bay at port.
Two steam engines inside the inner deck power the Crystalclad. While crystal is still rather light, the increased size of the ship and armament makes the ship noticeable heavier than the Fog-O-War. While it doesn't share the same problem of sitting extremely low in the water thanks to its size, it has to use two steam engines in order to maintain the same pace.
Also inside the inner deck is the Battery, where an array of AA/A-sized Magegems (depending on what goes with the Crystalclad's expense the most) are housed then connected to the steam engines, weapons, and anything else needing power by insulated crystal conduits. Without a mage on board, a fully-charged Crystalclad has a very long operational life - our steam engines are quite efficient as the power simply goes to maintaining enchantments. However, the use of weapons provokes a noticeable drain on the battery. Without a mage, a Crystalclad can still serve as an excellent transport and provide limited fire support, but mage-less Crystalclads aren't intended since with our plentiful apprentices every ship should have a mage. With a mage, the battery allows them to only focus on charging the battery instead of having to run between operating every individual cannon and the steam engines, and when the ship is charged, use their own spells on the upper deck.
The battery also has the ability to charge individual magegems, in case that ever becomes a factor.
TL;DR
Large
The Crystalclad is significantly larger than a Fog-O-War, but not by a huge degree. This isn't the equivalent of trying to make a carrier from a schooner, and I definitely feel as the main "challenge" it should be fine to handle. The size increase is to fit the new armament + steam engines without sacrificing integrity like the small Fog-O-War did.
Crystal Hull
The hull is made entirely out of Crystalworks crystal. This confers extreme armor capabilities. Because of the Crystalworks, we don't have to worry about maintenance or dispelling. We also can get an Expense credit for this because of the Crystalworks. Thanks to the Crystalworks, this is probably the easiest task and even benefits us (expense credit) for doing it.
Also, the hull is made so the crew and weapons go inside and are protected from Moskurger firepower. Weapons fire out of a vertical "weapons bay" door.
Armament
3x HC1-E/1x HA1 OR 2x HC1-E. I'm fine with both, but by myself I'd shoot for 3x HC1-E. This gives most of the Crystalclads three times the firepower of a Fog-O-War, and gives us the ability to field our HA1s in a couple of ships at sea. Even if we just do 2x HC1-E, I'm completely fine as I understand why people may think 3x HC1-Es/1x HA1 is ambitious. 2x HC1-Es means twice the firepower. HC1-Es are Expensive and two of them should still be fine, but the more serious 3x HC1-Es/1x HA1 would probably not bode well for expense if we fail the Crystal-Nickel Circuitry revision.
Two Steam Engines
Instead of one. This means the Crystalclad should be as fast (if not faster??) as the Fog-O-War. Extraordinarily simple task - just add another steam engine. With their semi-recent Expense buff, steam engines aren't particularly expensive as adding one to a ship doesn't affect its cost. With a successful Crystal-Nickel circuitry revision, this could have next to no impact on expense.
Magegem Battery
This means we don't have to have a ton of apprentices on board to operate each cannon and individually monitor the steam engines. The Magegem Battery supplies power to the rest of the ship via crystal conduits (which we did in Crystalworks) meaning we have one centralized place for mages to handle. It even lets our ships move about without mages (energy-efficient steam engines)! Basically, this means we can just have one
Expense
Worst case scenario, we get Very Expensive. (Thanks to Crystalworks). I'm optimistic about getting just Expensive, but even at Very Expensive it's a huge bonus to our fleet. Though if we somehow fail again at cheaper circuitry this revision, I'm sure it'll be Very Expensive thanks to the cannons/artillery and steam engines.
TL;DR TL;DR: A brand-new extremely durable ship with heavy firepower. It has a lot of stuff compared to a Fog-O-War, but almost all of this stuff is simply new application of existing technology. The Crystalclad is about half of my reason for pushing Magegems and Crystalworks so hard.
-Large (not huge, though.) (A step up from our current ships but we're not trying to make any huge advancements here)
I decided to go with an all-crystal hull because:
1.) Wood skeleton would be too much of a weak link - it'd be like if you made concrete supports and everything else steel on a skyscraper.
2.) Metal is heavy and still inferior to crystal. Our crystal gets an expense credit, is much lighter, and is stronger. There's no reason to use metal anywhere instead of crystal.
Also,
Evicted, what does crystal look like anyways? I've imagined it as a kind of slightly-translucent and extremely-slightly shimmering cyan-ish material. This is clearly a super important question and is critical for any crystal-based design.
And idea for future design: Aether Anchor. Generate magical energy without a mage present. Not in the near future, since in my opinion we already seriously pushed the edges of non-combat designs recently with the Crystalworks + Magegems. But at some point it could be nice to have our magitech not rely on
Post by: Andres on May 27, 2017, 08:26:10 am
ArmamentThis is simultaneously too ambitious and not ambitious enough. A HA1 is a very large artillery piece and we do not have the requisite technology to mount one without significant bugs coming up in the design.
3x HC1-E/1x HA1 OR 2x HC1-E.
At the same time only having 3/2 HC1-Es is a bit pathetic. Due to the shape that cannons come in, we can easily mount 8 of them on each side of the ship for a total of 16 cannons per ship. We can totally have that much firepower on board while still having a relatively small, fast ship.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 27, 2017, 12:20:04 pm
It's not going to take significant advancements in technology to fit a HA1. Our Fog-O-Wars come close to sinking from carrying one HC1-E and one steam engine.
Also again our cannons fire upwards into the angle where the shot then begins arcing down. This was explicitly mentioned when we made the HC1-E. So having the HC1-Es in the same configuration as traditional cannons in historical vessels would likely severely limit our range.
Post by: Andres on May 27, 2017, 01:23:04 pm
3x HC1-Es are as heavy as 1x HA1.I think they come close to sinking because we rolled badly on the actual ship part of the design. A decent roll should get us something that doesn't completely suck, so we should think bigger than a mere 3 cannons.
It's not going to take significant advancements in technology to fit a HA1. Our Fog-O-Wars come close to sinking from carrying one HC1-E and one steam engine.
As for a HA1, maybe we'll be able to mount one on a ship, but I don't see why you want them so much. Due to their BOS range, the only targets HA1s are effective against are static targets, and ships aren't static targets. At any closer range, our HC1-Es are better due to their higher rate of fire.
Also again our cannons fire upwards into the angle where the shot then begins arcing down. This was explicitly mentioned when we made the HC1-E. So having the HC1-Es in the same configuration as traditional cannons in historical vessels would likely severely limit our range.I already showed you a picture that will let us have a traditional cannon configuration while allowing arcing. Did you not see it?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 27, 2017, 01:52:34 pm
I assumed by that picture that you meant set the cannons up in a mortar configuration which is what I've done with it the design. Did you mean something else with it?
Post by: Andres on May 27, 2017, 02:43:00 pm
I primarily want them to allow their use at sea and for shelving troops on land. And as a form of future proofing. Like what if we develop a better est of spitting or a more accurate HA1? I'd want to be able to fit it on the ship without another designs or revision.It's ok for us to have more than just a single model of ship. This ship we're going to be designing is likely not going to be the last we ever do anyway.
I assumed by that picture that you meant set the cannons up in a mortar configuration which is what I've done with it the design. Did you mean something else with it?No, the blue stuff was the hull of the crystalclad. It's just a traditional configuration where there are holes in the hull to allow the cannons to stick out, but oval instead of round to allow the cannons to be pointed upwards instead of just straight horizontally.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 27, 2017, 03:22:48 pm
Actually, it's easier to just make the circuits out of plain nickel rather than getting crystal involved. We attempted it, producing machine-grown crystals and grinding it up into a powder to mix into the nickel, but it resulted in a rather non-homogeneous, granular metal.
Nickel is relatively more common than gold, more resistant to heat and stress, and is decent for magical circuits.
The weight of the actual circuit is rather negligible, so using nickel doesn't really reduce weight. It does make circuits cheaper and more reliable, though - as a nice byproduct, our HA1's are now merely Expensive.
What do you wish to sell the Merchant?
Where do you wish to send Myark?
Post by: evictedSaint on May 27, 2017, 03:32:33 pm
All existing crystal structures (namely your lances and your axes) are now machine-made, and gain the mild brittle feature of machine-made crystals. Your Crystal Caltrops, being spikey, random jagged crystals that tend to be bulky and difficult to move, remain as apprentice-made (as it making them machine-made is more effort than it's worth and would increase the cost).
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 27, 2017, 04:08:19 pm
I'm assuming we're closer to cheaper HC1-Es and steam engines, but just not enough for a decrease in expense?
Also, are we getting any other benefits from the new circuits? Like does the HA1 have a better rate of fire and are circuit-using designs more resistant to fire because of the meting point?
So, the merchant.
He is fairly experienced in magic thanks to the academy, so can we teach him any spells?
Some machine crystal weapons? He really liked the weapons before but they were only temporary. We could give him some permanent lances and axes.
Magegems are cool but I'm not sure he'd like them due to the fact that they aren't used in anything else we could give him.
Post by: andrea on May 27, 2017, 04:58:44 pm
for simple spells, we could get him the flare maybe. or a streamlined fireball. Unelss he already got them in the academy.
Maybe a few pet mindwashed falcons?
Post by: Andres on May 27, 2017, 05:44:22 pm
For the merchant, we should remember that we set up magic in his country. We can give him stuff that requires apprentices now. For stuff, I'm thinking some falcons, some crystal weapons (we should tell him we're only MOSTLY sure they're permanent), and some of our Fogs of War. Those ships would be good for a trader, as it has cannon, it's faster than any other ship, and it can sail despite wind.
We also have cheap plate armour. Plate armour before the year 1000. He could make money from selling that back in his home.
EDIT: The cannons themselves could be of interest to him. They need nothing more than water, ammo, and magegems to function. He has apprentices in his country, so he can always recharge.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 27, 2017, 05:45:46 pm
The Cheap HC1-E's will have minimal effect, because your wizards and apprentices will be pulled for flares and HA1 operations, etc.
The steam engines being Expensive will have no effect, because your ships were Very Expensive to begin with, even without the engines (and you haven't gotten around to building tanks yet).
Post by: Andres on May 27, 2017, 06:15:28 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 27, 2017, 06:21:32 pm
The cheap HC1-Es and steam engines is good news, though. It may have minimal effect now but it helps in the future.
Now, for actions.
Jungle - With continued naval supremacy, our commander says we should be able to push Moskurg back here.
Mountain - I'm not worried here as it'd probably take several intentionally-made Moskurger designs to legitimately conquer the mountains.
Plains - The new HA1s should help a lot here. We should still invest in explosive ammo at some point though. But maybe it's possible to make some minor explosive ammo with a revision? Like "stick a magegem in it" with nothing else.
Seas - We just have a general advantage here, but I think we need help here the most until we get Crystalclads. If we lose the sea we lose any chance at the jungle, so...
Send Myark to the Western Sea.
For the trader, I'd say basically what Andres said.
Give the trader a few falcons, some crates of crystal weaponry, and enough Fog-O-Wars to replace his current ship(s). We're upgrading his ship and giving him a ton of stuff too.
Quote
MYARK
1 - Send to Western Sea: Chiefwaffles
MERCHANT
1 - Give few falcons + crates of crystal weapons + Fog-O-Wars to replace his current ship(s): Chiefwaffles
@Andres: Basically our circuits are ways of manipulating and harnessing magic without a human presence. We first used them on the magical condenser to maintain an enchantment without a mage present. (Basically at first they were just our fancy magitech version of enchantments) But now we can clearly use them to autonomously cast spells (Crystalworks) in addition to enchantments. They're very multi-use and I also think we can do some extraordinarily basic logic with them.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 27, 2017, 06:50:09 pm
Sell him the OLDER weaker cannon version with the nickel circuits and crystals and all that. We might not produce these for ourselves anymore but nO need to give him our top of the line.
Post by: Andres on May 27, 2017, 07:29:59 pm
As for what we should give him, I'm going to include creates of plate armour, I'm going to give him cannons, and I'm going to remove "replace". We're not exchanging ships, we're giving ships.
Quote
MYARK
1 - Send to Western Sea: Chiefwaffles
1 - Send to Jungle: Andres
MERCHANT
1 - Give few falcons + crates of crystal weapons + Fog-O-Wars to replace his current ship(s): Chiefwaffles
1 - Give few falcons + crates of crystal weapons + Fog-O-Wars + crates of plate armour + HC1-Es: Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 27, 2017, 07:33:50 pm
Also, the Wand of True Light should work wonders at sea. It affects an entire theatre and comes with Myark.
Post by: Andres on May 27, 2017, 07:36:05 pm
Quote
MYARKStill giving him the plate armour. We're competing with pegasi.
2 - Send to Western Sea: Chiefwaffles, Andres
MERCHANT
1 - Give few falcons + crates of crystal weapons + Fog-O-Wars to replace his current ship(s): Chiefwaffles
1 - Give few falcons + crates of crystal weapons + Fog-O-Wars + crates of plate armour: Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 28, 2017, 03:34:50 am
Quote
MYARK
2 - Send to Western Sea: Chiefwaffles, Andres
MERCHANT
2 - Give few falcons + crates of crystal weapons + Fog-O-Wars + crates of plate armour: Andres, Chiefwaffles
Post by: evictedSaint on May 28, 2017, 07:46:39 pm
Combat for 935
This year sees a powerful shift in Arstotzka's artillery equipment. Their HA1's, longer-ranged and higher caliber than their smaller HC1-E's, are now merely Expensive. Before, Moskurg only had to worry about the occasional barrage from beyond their line of sight every once in a while, and even then only a few shells would fall at a time. Now, when the inevitable Green Flare rises up over the horizon, they can expect metal shells to rain from above in furious amounts. Carpet bombers can't kill enough to make a difference, not with falcons scratching at their face and limiting their effectiveness. Ballistas, once the main-stay of Moskurgs assaults, have been limited to sniping the apprentices in the field before they can send off their flares. Assaults are met with a hell-storm of artillery fire. al-Mutriqa does his best, zipping around on carpets and hurling firebombs, but it's not enough. Lightning can't even be used due to the constant freezing, snowy temperatures. Moskurg is forced out of the Taiga easily.
Our Theatre Commander is very pleased with the cheaper artillery. Better ammo would improve the effectiveness of the device, but he's more concerned with Moskurgs flying carpets. Better falcons would do a lot to preventing the (admittedly infrequent) bombing raids.
Arstotzka regains full control of the Taiga.
Arstotzka pushes down from the mountains this year, gaining a section of desert.
Their Minor Towers of Frost make the swelting desert weather bearable, and Moskurgs Divine Desert winds can't repel the cold fast enough. The HA1 artillery has a height advantage, meaning their unbeatable range is even further increased. Moskurg still suffers from diminished carpet effectiveness, and their temperature bonus isn't enough to offset the constant barrage of artillery shells. The warmer temperatures mean their Storm Strike and Hammer of Allah can be used, at least - lightning strikes at random, frying artillery cannons and soldiers as they come down the mountains. It's close, but Arstotzka manages to gain a section. Next year Moskurgs Naval Advantage will make it possible to land behind them and bombard them from the coast, but for now Arstotzkan boots tread on Moskurg sands.
The Theatre Commander is pessimistic about our chances in the desert. Moskurg has naval superiority and a temperature bonus, and we will likely lose the desert next year. If we could freeze them out, it'd go a long way to eventually marching into their capitol.
Arstotzka gains a section of the desert. They have regained their Metal Bonus from the mountain.
The Artillery bonus is even more obvious in the plains.
Flat, open ground is an artilleryman's dream, and though the shells only kill where they hit, there's enough of them that the trenches are constantly under attack. Their fire rate comes in bursts as they're forced to wait for more ammo and water to supply their cannons, but these reprieves don't come often enough for Moskurg. They gain a section of ground, forcing Moskurg to cede their absolute control of the plains.
The Theatre Commander is confident in our ability to take back the plains with our new plentiful artillery cannons. Better ammo would be welcome, but he's disappointed there's no effective way to use our soldiers in combat with their new vanish-proof crystal weapons. Being able to advance our men without fear of their out-dated ballistas cutting our men down would be fantastic, but he has no clue what sort of weapon would let us do that.
Arstotzka has secured a section of the plains.
Moskurg ships push the Eastern Seas and Western Seas.
This year, Moskurg rolls out a new, powerful variant of their ships - named the "Sirocco". Made of what wood is left in the jungle, the Sirocco has a hardened hull clad in an unnatural, glowing white metal. These ships are just as fast as Arstotzka's steam ships, and the hull can survive all but the most close-range, carefully-aimed shots from their powerful steam cannons. This, combined with their air superiority, means they are able to beat Arstotzka back a section in the sea in the Eastern coast.
It is a much closer battle in the Western sea, though - Myark is seen standing aboard one of their lead ships, hurling fireballs and firing off cannons with each hand. His falcon single-handedly takes down a flight of carpet bombers, but the real advantage comes from his Wand of True Light - once battles start, it's difficult for Moskurg sailors to stand and fight. They flee more often than not, but even these brief skirmishes go in their favor. They're just as fast as steam ships, and unless the shot hits square cannon rounds will deflect off their armor. Meanwhile, Moskurg ballistas have no problem setting Arstotzkan ships alight, which inevitably sends them to the bottom of the ocean. It's close - very close - but ultimately Arstotzka loses more ships than Moskurg thanks to their new armor and fast hulls.
The Theatre Commander is very alarmed. Moskurg has out-classed our ships in a single turn, and we MUST do something to level the playing field before they gain control of the ocean. Armored ships of our own would be ideal, or even air forces to strike back at Moskurg from above.
Moskurg gains ground in the Eastern and Western Seas.
Expense Credit!!!
The trader eagerly accepts a Fog-O-War ship, amazed by how it moves without sails or oars. He's more hesitant to accept the crate of crystal weapons, but after assuring him it won't vanish like last time he loads it aboard his ship. He and his men wave goodby as the two ships disappear over the horizon.
We have gained an Expense Credit.
It is 936, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 936 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Behavior Rules. Please Read.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: helmacon on May 28, 2017, 08:05:16 pm
I guess it's obvious we do a ship design this turn?
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 28, 2017, 08:15:01 pm
So boat?
I am thinking twice as big as what we have, all armored in light crystal with say four cannons, 4 firing ports on each side and 2 fore and aft. Powered by two engines to keep up speed, the rest is wood and metal or whatever is cheap/strong enough to actually build it.
Have the firing ports use a clear crystal door/window that can be opened and closed to allow the cannons to be reloaded and aimed without being exposed.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 28, 2017, 08:16:12 pm
Some way to block their artillery fire would also be nice. Crystal armor could lessen the impact?
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 28, 2017, 08:17:51 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 28, 2017, 08:19:16 pm
Summon a bunker, then summon one right next to it, keep doing that in a row and moving our troops between them and advance. By the time we hit their anti magic fields we will be in range to do melee.
Post by: RAM on May 28, 2017, 08:26:57 pm
Spell Shells.
We Create a mess of curcuits to rotate magic around a point, and we place a pair of polarised antimagic charms either side of it. The circuits bind the magic into a single entity which is pulled and stretched between the two charms. This stretching effect prevents magic from forming a completed spell, holding it in the moment just before triggering. This allows the shell to store magic spells that will emerge when the apparatus become misaligned, generally when it hits something. We are hoping for a capacity of at least 20 fireballs.
Metaconjuration
We use conjuration to summon a fully-formed magical spell at a disatnce. In this case an instantly detonating fireball spell.
Vine Mine
We grow light, tough vines that have an inside and an outside. They are studded with crystal shards and are carried from the 'back' side by trained dive-bombing falcons. When they detect something from their 'front' they wrap around it and start grinding, which is generalyl fatal to cloth, leather and skin... Ideally these fall upon carpets or wizards.
Antiluck wards
Post by: helmacon on May 28, 2017, 08:32:43 pm
How about we do a general purpose Crystal armor plates. Large Crystal plates made in the Crystal works that could either be used on ships or artillery. Not quite as good as a purely fitted Crystal ship, but more versatile. Helps counter the incoming artillery counter, and does some work with our ships.
Post by: RAM on May 28, 2017, 08:33:03 pm
Design: SO1-AG "Rod to God"/"Fenrir Rounds"
"You know what? Just shoot them. The whole thing. We don't need them."
~Project Lead
An anti-magic charm is tuned up to insane proportions. Through intense efforts by many of our best wizards and the leadership of Myark, we may bring up the anti-magic field of an anti-magic charm to extreme proportions. The area is extremely small, but the power is so intense that the charm can disappear from reality once any more energy is added. This charm is loaded into a hollow Special Ordinance shell along with the best explosive we can find in Forenia.
The SO1-AG is then shot out of a cannon and once it hits an enemy magic field, the entire shell will disappear into the Heavens, where it will blow up any local supernatural deities, with a particular tendency to blow up the deity that person is likely praying to thanks to the shell currently homing in on them. Rinse and repeat until the gods are dead.
Special Ordinance 1 - Anti-God "Rod to God"
Quote
1 Rod To God: RAM
0 Ragnarok Rounds
0 Metaconjuration
0 Vine Mine
0 Antiluck wards
Post by: Andres on May 28, 2017, 08:40:31 pm
We can't even hurt their ships. It doesn't matter if our ships are faster or more durable if we can't damage them. EA will also help in our ground battles.
Quote
1 - Explosive Ammunition: Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
EDIT: Included "conical shells" into the design so that we have them and use them instead of round shells. It'll let us get armour piercing ammunition by tipping them with crystal.
Post by: helmacon on May 28, 2017, 08:44:21 pm
Alternative (or in addition) to Crystal boats. Crystal squids. Squid trained with our mind magic and with Crystal shards infused in their tentacles. They stick on the under side of enemy boats and rasp their razor sharp tentacles against the bottom until it tears a hole. Hard to detect, or stop once detected. They make prolonged deployment a nightmare, forcing enemy ships to dock and repair often, and sinking them if they stay out too long.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 28, 2017, 08:56:02 pm
Change the shape of the shell or make it heavier then we still have a design action for the Crystalclad.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 28, 2017, 09:08:14 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 28, 2017, 09:14:18 pm
Actually, somewhat related to that little note, why don't we fix our AM shells? We can use our crystal/metal bonus on it and our former experience with it to fix both its price and reliability in one revision.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 28, 2017, 09:18:23 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 28, 2017, 09:36:06 pm
Design: SBP2 "Crystalclad"
The Crystalclad is a marvel of Arstotzkan engineering, making use of many of our innovations to this day in order to create the most fearsome ship on the sea.
The entire ship is made out of crystal straight from the Crystalworks. Earlier designs had a inner skeleton made out of wood or steel, but as we have plentiful strong lasting crystal, there's no point to weaken the ship with unnecessary materials. The crystal hull makes the ship nearly impervious to any known form of Moskurg weaponry. Crystal is unimpacted by fire bombs, and ballista bolts will largely just scratch the surface. In the rare event of critical damage, any old
The ship has two decks - one inside and one outside. The upper deck is sparsely visited by crew, and is largely used only by sentries and for loading/unloading cargo and people onto the ship at port. The inner deck is where the cargo is stored, the ship is run, the crew lives, the steam engines reside, etc. etc.. This further increases the protectiveness of the new crystal hull - fire may still be particularly damaging to humans even if it doesn't damage the ship, but keeping the crew inside the ship protects them from Moskurger attacks.
Between the middle and back of the inner deck resides the "weapons bay". The weapons bay is slightly raised upwards to the rest of the main deck, and has an opening bay door at the top allowing for fitting in new weapons and firing outwards from. The weapons bay has configurable mounts for weapons. The goal is to fit an armament of three HC1-Es or one HA1 here. Cannons and artillery fire outward from the weapons bay which can be closed as needed. The majority of Crystalclads will be holding HC1-Es for closer-combat, but a decent amount will be delegated artillery ships using HA1s to support the rest. While we have the goal of 3x HC1-Es or 1x HA1, our mathemagicians are hoping to fit as many cannons as possible on the ship without sacrificing integrity.
Armaments can be changed on a whim, as it's just a matter of moving the artillery in and out of an opened weapons bay at port.
Two steam engines inside the inner deck power the Crystalclad. These steam engines are different from the extraordinarily heavy ones found in the Fog-O-War. Our mathemagicians have spent some degree of effort in order to make the Crystalclad's engines out of largely crystal. These new crystal steam engines are exponentially lighter than their predecessors and take advantage of our cheap machine crystal to make the engines even cheaper. As a result of this decrease in steam engine weight and other factors such as the light Crystal hull, the Crystalclad should be as fast if not faster than a Fog-O-War.
Some people have raised concerns over microfractures from the repeated heating of the steam engine, but those concerns have been dismissed. It would take years of constant use to even approach semi-unreliable levels, and even then, the problem would just result in a crack, rendering the engine inoperable until fixed. But that doesn't matter because as it happens, our ships receive maintenance much more frequently than once ever few years.
Also inside the inner deck is the Battery, where an array of AA/A-sized Magegems (depending on what goes with the Crystalclad's expense the most) are housed then connected to the steam engines, weapons, and anything else needing power by insulated crystal conduits. Without a mage on board, a fully-charged Crystalclad has a very long operational life - our steam engines are quite efficient as the power simply goes to maintaining enchantments. However, the use of weapons provokes a noticeable drain on the battery. Without a mage, a Crystalclad can still serve as an excellent transport and provide limited fire support, but mage-less Crystalclads aren't intended since with our plentiful apprentices every ship should have a mage. With a mage, the battery allows them to only focus on charging the battery instead of having to run between operating every individual cannon and the steam engines, and when the ship is charged, use their own spells on the upper deck.
The battery also has the ability to charge individual magegems, in case that ever becomes a factor.
TL;DR
Large
The Crystalclad is significantly larger than a Fog-O-War, but not by a huge degree. This isn't the equivalent of trying to make a carrier from a schooner, and I definitely feel as the main "challenge" it should be fine to handle. The size increase is to fit the new armament + steam engines without sacrificing integrity like the small Fog-O-War did.
Crystal Hull
The hull is made entirely out of Crystalworks crystal. This confers extreme armor capabilities. Because of the Crystalworks, we don't have to worry about maintenance or dispelling. We also can get an Expense credit for this because of the Crystalworks. Thanks to the Crystalworks, this is probably the easiest task and even benefits us (automatic expense credit) for doing it.
Also, the hull is made so the crew and weapons go inside and are protected from Moskurger firepower. Weapons fire out of a vertical "weapons bay" door.
Armament
As many HC1-Es as we can fit on the ship without hurting integrity or HA1(s) + HC1-Es to fill the rest of the weight capacity. My goal is 3x HC1-E or 1x HA1 but anything more than that would be appreciated. HA1s are Expensive, meaning it won't be a problem fitting them on our ships, and HC1-Es are cheap, meaning we can use as much as them as we want.
Two Lighter+Cheaper (Crystal) Steam Engines
The Fog-O-War uses two steam engines and suffers for it - its speed and integrity are much lower than they could be because of the extreme weight of the steam engines. The Crystalclad uses the same number of steam engines, but makes them lighter as well. This should ideally keep the speed the same as (if not better than) the Fog-O-War due to the lower weight. This is done using crystal, meaning the engines are more durable, cheaper, and much lighter. Our expense bonus from the Crystalworks should mean these engines will become Cheap.
Magegem Battery
This means we don't have to have a ton of apprentices on board to operate each cannon and individually monitor the steam engines. The Magegem Battery supplies power to the rest of the ship via crystal conduits (which we did in Crystalworks) meaning we have one centralized place for mages to handle. It even lets our ships move about without mages (energy-efficient steam engines)! Basically, this means we can just have one
Expense
Worst case scenario, we get Very Expensive. (Thanks to Crystalworks). Expensive is a possibility and I hope to get it, but even at Very Expensive it's a huge bonus to our fleet. Especially considering at Very Expensive it'd still replace our fleet. The new nickel circuits make our lives easier too. The slightly lighter weapons + engines also help. When this design was first posted we still had Very Expensive HA1s + Expensive HC1-Es and steam engines still used gold circuits, but now we have the easy-to-make nickel circuits. The components in the Crystalclad are surprisingly cheap, really. Cheap crystal, cheap weapons, (probably) cheap engines, cheap circuits...
TL;DR TL;DR: A brand-new extremely durable ship with heavy firepower. It has a lot of stuff compared to a Fog-O-War, but almost all of this stuff is simply new application of existing technology. The Crystalclad is about half of my reason for pushing Magegems and Crystalworks so hard.
-Large (not huge, though.) (A step up from our current ships but we're not trying to make any huge advancements here)
I decided to go with an all-crystal hull because:
1.) Wood skeleton would be too much of a weak link - it'd be like if you made concrete supports and everything else steel on a skyscraper.
2.) Metal is heavy and still inferior to crystal. Our crystal gets an expense credit, is much lighter, and is stronger. There's no reason to use metal anywhere instead of crystal.
Reasons why we should pursue the Crystalclad:
1.) Their ships aren't invulnerable to our cannons. More cannons = better chances of good shots = more destroyed Moskurger ships.
2.) Our armor is probably better than theirs (just based off of how long we've spent developing this kind of stuff) and needs to reflect less. We just have to protect against firebombs (indoor crew+weapons) and ballista bolts (crystal armor). I doubt a ballista bolt, enchanted or not, can get through armor harder than steel.
3.) We have the Crystalworks helping in expense. (Also expense credit)
4.) We can field HA1s which should have more power in their shots which is exactly what we need. HA1s have had the problem of small AoE effects before but small concentrated+intense impact sites is exactly what would help us at sea.
5.) We can revise armor-piercing shells this turn to go with all our artillery, allowing us to beat their ships and future armor. When we do develop magical/explosive shells, we could even combine them with the AP shells to make explosive piercing shells! Pierce armor then explode!
Basically, our weapons can still get through their armor, just not at great rates. With crystal armoring on our ships, we should be able to perform better against their ballistae than their armor performs against our shells. Then we have things like the HA1s, etc.
Quote
1 - Crystalclad: ChiefwafflesI don't think explosive ammunition is a bad idea, I just prefer Crystalclads at this point.
1 - Explosive Ammunition: Andres
1 - Rod To God: RAM
0 Ragnarok Rounds
0 Metaconjuration
0 Vine Mine
0 Antiluck wards
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 28, 2017, 09:40:10 pm
The basic cannon ball is replaced with one composed almost entirely of the new crystal. Inside it has a nickle circuit that creates a fireball effect when activated and is empowered by a Magegem Battery before launch.
The nickel circuit loops around the cannon ball and as long as the circuit is complete the fireball effect will be dormant. However once energy is put into the system a second circuit begins sniping off the end of the loop, one small piece every second. When the fuse is gone the loop is broken and all the magical energy is sucked into the fireball circuit which activates.
The length of this "fuse" can be set by the operator before hand in a removable portion of the cannon ball. It is inert until the mage gem actually activates the whole circuit complex.
If the loop is damaged by the cannon ball hitting the ground there is also a good chance of the fireball circuit going off.
Post by: Andres on May 28, 2017, 10:03:28 pm
I don't think explosive ammunition is a bad idea, I just prefer Crystalclads at this point.But they would be useless. Read the last report again; we cannot damage their ships. Rule 1 for our ships is that they need to kill enemy ships. It doesn't matter how fast or how well defended our ships are, if they cannot kill the enemy ships, they are worthless. It's fine that you like the idea of crystalclads more, but it's wrong to vote for the design on the basis that it'll do more for us on sea than explosive ammunition, because that notion is a false one.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 28, 2017, 10:09:07 pm
This year, Moskurg rolls out a new, powerful variant of their ships - named the "Sirocco". Made of what wood is left in the jungle, the Sirocco has a hardened hull clad in an unnatural, glowing white metal. These ships are just as fast as Arstotzka's steam ships, and the hull can survive all but the most close-range, carefully-aimed shots from their powerful steam cannons. This, combined with their air superiority, means they are able to beat Arstotzka back a section in the sea in the Eastern coast.
It is a much closer battle in the Western sea, though - Myark is seen standing aboard one of their lead ships, hurling fireballs and firing off cannons with each hand. His falcon single-handedly takes down a flight of carpet bombers, but the real advantage comes from his Wand of True Light - once battles start, it's difficult for Moskurg sailors to stand and fight. They flee more often than not, but even these brief skirmishes go in their favor. They're just as fast as steam ships, and unless the shot hits square cannon rounds will deflect off their armor. Meanwhile, Moskurg ballistas have no problem setting Arstotzkan ships alight, which inevitably sends them to the bottom of the ocean. It's close - very close - but ultimately Arstotzka loses more ships than Moskurg thanks to their new armor and fast hulls.
Like I said, our cannons just aren't as effective. They still work to some degree, but our ships are destroyed by things like fire before they can do enough damage. With crystal plating, we'd be 100% fireproof and likely more resistant to their shells than their bolts are to crystal armor. Their main advantage at sea has been fire ammunition which is completely voided by the Crystalclad. We also have more firepower meaning damaging/destroying shots happen much more often, and the HA1 which I believe hits much harder than a HC1-E (at the cost of AoE which we don't really need.)
Also, again, armor-piercing shells revision. Explosives by themselves aren't necessarily great at piercing armor. If we make our shells heavier and/or change their shape or make other minor modifications to facilitate armor piercing this revision, they could go through armor much easier and continue being useful even if Moskurg upgrades the armor.
Post by: Andres on May 28, 2017, 10:24:29 pm
Like I said, our cannons just aren't as effective. They still work to some degree, but our ships are destroyed by things like fire before they can do enough damage. With crystal plating, we'd be 100% fireproof and likely more resistant to their shells than their bolts are to crystal armor. Their main advantage at sea has been fire ammunition which is completely voided by the Crystalclad. We also have more firepower meaning damaging/destroying shots happen much more often, and the HA1 which I believe hits much harder than a HC1-E (at the cost of AoE which we don't really need.)Fine. With the AP Revision I guess it can work. I'm still going to vote for explosive ammunition because that has major use in our ground battles, not just on sea.
Also, again, armor-piercing shells revision. Explosives by themselves aren't necessarily great at piercing armor. If we make our shells heavier and/or change their shape or make other minor modifications to facilitate armor piercing this revision, they could go through armor much easier and continue being useful even if Moskurg upgrades the armor.
That said, I'm willing to vote for crystalclads if you agree to use the Expense Credit on our frost towers. I'm voting for EA because it'll help on the ground, but if we're doing something else to help on the ground, then I'd be fine not voting for it. More frost towers would also help facilitate further advances into the Desert.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 28, 2017, 10:53:22 pm
But with that being said, I'm still unsure about the expense credit. I kind of want just Expensive Crystalclads or to save the Expense Credit for some devastating new design. But with that being said, I'm definitely extremely open to voting on using it for cheaper frost towers.
Also, I just noticed that the SPB1 Fog-O-War has two steam engines. I'm changing the Crystalclad's count to four engines in total. Considering the engines are just Expensive, it shouldn't be a problem. And if a Fog-O-War can handle two engines then the Crystalclad should be able to handle four.
Miscellaneous design for the future. Could let our troops get into close-range, but we'd need to do some other stuff beforehand - namely make sure Magegem/Circuit magitech can work in antimagic. We haven't actually tested this stuff yet, but I'm somewhat hopeful considering the divine aspect of their antimagic. It may remove a person's ability to cast magic, but does it actually stop all magic like our anti-magic charms? (The answer is "probably". But I'm hopeful!)
Future Design: APC1 "Pursuer"
We've been having a mild survivability issue with our troops. That is to say, our soldiers tend to not last past the first charge. Personal armor is questionable, as ballistae and artillery strikes tend to ignore armor like that.
So what if we built a vehicle to carry our troops across the ground? We already use steam engines to move our Fog-O-Wars and hopefully the Crystalclad, so why not do the same thing on land?
The APC1 Pursuer is a realization of that concept. We start by building, well, a large """wagon""". A vehicle big enough to carry roughly 8 troops, including the driver. A steam engine placed in the center of the vehicle powered by a small series of AA magegems runs the wheels while a driver in the front looks through small (opening/closing) window slots to see where he's headed. A two-pronged handle in the front allows the driver to manipulate the orientation of the front wheels from inside, and a small magical circuit allows him to control the power of the steam engine by moving an AAA magegem around to control the input from magegems to the engine. The vehicle hopefully moves forward at roughly the pace of [15 miles an hour].
Behind the driver is seating and "buckles" to safely secure the passengers. The passengers' seating is placed along the walls. A large door is placed on the back which opens up/down to become a ramp for our soldiers to depart from under cover from the vehicle. The interior is notably cramped, with soldiers' knees almost touching the steam engine and there being just enough room for all the needed equipment.
The operational time of an APC1 Pursuer on a full Magegem charge is quite long - roughly 12 hours of constant driving at a recommended pace. This is because it only utilizes steam engines, which can already run by themselves without a magegem for quite a while. Adding magegems massively increases the lifetime of the engine on a charge.
The vehicle is built out of solid crystal, making it nearly if not entirely impervious to Moskurger ballistae bolts and firebombs. The APC1 Pursuer can bring our troops to the front lines safe from Moskurger ballistae and air attacks. It can be used for evacuations, allowing our troops to quickly get in and outpace a marching enemy and out-fatigue running enemies. Our troops will be safe and sound in this vehicle.
Post by: Andres on May 28, 2017, 11:17:37 pm
I do want to do explosive shells next turn for sure. As for the expense credit, I'm not sure. Apparently, Very Expensive (which is actually the max expense level for the Crystalclad) is the standard for boats meaning that no matter what happens and barring spontaneous rule changes, the Crystalclad will be able to replace our entire navy.The Crystalclad will in all likelihood be replaced by a later design eventually, one that's faster, bigger, better armoured, and with more guns. Our frost towers are forever. It would a bit of a waste to use the Expense credit on the Crystalclads since we'll inevitably design a ship that'll obsolete it. Cheaper Crystalclads will be useful until that time until they're replaced, but so would cheaper frost towers, and they'll continue to be useful after the Crystalclads are replaced.
But with that being said, I'm still unsure about the expense credit. I kind of want just Expensive Crystalclads or to save the Expense Credit for some devastating new design. But with that being said, I'm definitely extremely open to voting on using it for cheaper frost towers.
Also, I would like to note that making the Tower of Forever Frost didn't double its coverage, it tripled it. Making the minor frost towers might not reduce the temperature of affected regions by 1, but instead by 3. I'd say that's pretty devastating.
Also, I just noticed that the SPB1 Fog-O-War has two steam engines. I'm changing the Crystalclad's count to four engines in total. Considering the engines are just Expensive, it shouldn't be a problem. And if a Fog-O-War can handle two engines then the Crystalclad should be able to handle four.Our steam engines are ludicrously heavy. Adding more steam engines could easily cause problems in regards to the ship's weight. Instead of giving it four engines, include making our current engines lighter in the design. The lighter weight will let our ships move faster and will get us one step closer to making landships.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 28, 2017, 11:25:17 pm
As for the steam engines, I'm a bit iffy on that. I know we're not really doing much new on it, but the Crystalclad just seems like a penalty magnet in all honesty. While I'm pretty confident in it now, it feels like including something such as cheaper steam engines would hurt the design because it's unrelated. Maybe we can do three?
Also, Evicted, how light is our crystal anyways? We know for certain it's a notably light metal, and the description for the Crystal Long Axes design mentions "lighter than a feather". This is probably hyperbole but it obviously means crystal isn't just "notably lighter than iron".
Post by: Andres on May 28, 2017, 11:31:34 pm
As for the steam engines, I'm a bit iffy on that. I know we're not really doing much new on it, but the Crystalclad just seems like a penalty magnet in all honesty. While I'm pretty confident in it now, it feels like including something such as cheaper steam engines would hurt the design because it's unrelated. Maybe we can do three?It's possible to make a new design and advance several things forward as part of it, especially something like a lighter engine which is Revision-level stuff. ((Examples include tanks in Arms Race, where it's perfectly normal to upgrade a tank's armour and engine in the same Design phase.))
The design would boil down to these four things:
Magegem Battery - uses existing technology in a new way
Crystal Hull - uses existing technology in a new, simple way
New hull - basic upgrade
Lighter engines - Revision-tier upgrade
It's not a penalty magnet at all.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 28, 2017, 11:41:11 pm
But sure, I'll change it to two lighter engines. But if something goes wrong with it regardless of rolls, it shall be entirely your fault and it shall be fact that it was you that doomed the Crystalclad. All your fault.
EDIT: Fluff for lighter steam engines - they're made out of lighter metals and the design has been optimized a bit to allow for the same amount of work to be done with less things, and thus less weight.
EDIT2: Wait, did we ever use our metal bonus on steam engines?
Post by: Andres on May 28, 2017, 11:43:25 pm
Quote
2 - Crystalclad: Chiefwaffles, Andres
1 - Rod To God: RAM
0 Ragnarok Rounds
0 Metaconjuration
0 Vine Mine
0 Antiluck wards
Future Design: AS-MDF. This fireball, based on the Powerful Streamlined Fireball, the Missile Defence Fireball is shot into the air where it will hang for a period of up to 5 minutes. During this time, it will detect incoming missiles and shoot small fragments of itself to individually destroy each of them.
This should make their arrows and ballistas obsolete and it's using a spell we are well acquainted with. It doesn't matter if they have Lucky Shot because it doesn't matter how accurate their missiles are, our MDFs will shoot them down before they hit their targets, even if their targets are the MDFs themselves.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Andres on May 28, 2017, 11:49:27 pm
Chiefwaffles, why don't you make the steam engines out of crystal? It's as tough as steel, feather-light, and our crystalworks means it'll be one tier cheaper than it would otherwise be. Just redoing our current steam engine with the stuff will make it a hell of a lot lighter and cheaper.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 28, 2017, 11:53:04 pm
And we do have the Mountains metal bonus too. So revising it in crystal or metal will get the auto expense credit.
Post by: Andres on May 28, 2017, 11:59:09 pm
Thought about it, but crystal does have that heat fracturing problem we discovered earlier. And while it was just minor fractures before, steam engines do tend to get quite hot and it feels like it'd build up over time.What heat fracturing problem? Was said problem not fixed when we did the crystalworks? If said heat problem does exist, we should endeavour to fix it, because such a material would be massively useful if we could fix that problem. The steam engine would only be the beginning.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 29, 2017, 12:14:31 am
Everywhere but magitech like the steam engine and circuits, it's not a problem and Crystal is still fireproof. What I'm worried about is years of operations with the steam engine turning off and on and gradually damaging the crystal. Crystal could definitely take more than enough firebombs to last its design's lifetime, as firebombs aren't as consistent or frequent as the steam engine changing temperature. Each time the temperature changes, the crystal gets mildly more stressed. When consistently done every day for years, at some point there's going to be a noticeable crack and who knows when it might appear.
Post by: RAM on May 29, 2017, 12:29:10 am
Post by: evictedSaint on May 29, 2017, 12:30:17 am
Post by: Andres on May 29, 2017, 12:36:12 am
They're about the same. Crystals are sharper and lighter and harder than steel, but steel is less brittle.You did say that, but later you said that machine crystal was as brittle as steel due to the fact that original hand-made crystal was better than steel to begin with.
Another question about crystal: in terms of heat, is it bad when it comes to steam engines or is it only bad when doing something as precise as circuitry?
@Chiefwaffles, remember that ship maintenance is a thing. That applies to engines as well. So long as it can be relied upon to not break down mid-battle, it's fine.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 29, 2017, 12:47:22 am
Post by: evictedSaint on May 29, 2017, 12:57:37 am
Machine crystal is about as brittle as...I dunno, really high-carbon steel. It doesn't have the same flexibility as steel and tends to accumulate microfractures. It's not a concern for most things like axes, but for stuff that experiences periodic, cyclical stress like circuits or machinery (like the steam engine) it would be a concern. That's not to say you can't make steam engines out of crystal, and a good design would make that problem negligible. Your crystals experience the same issues and properties that all crystals experience.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 29, 2017, 01:00:13 am
Exploding shells should be a full design, whichever final plan we go for, next turn. Combine all that we know and add a few new things in.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 29, 2017, 01:01:59 am
Hmmm...let's saaay it's slightly more brittle than high-carbon steel? It won't be a major factor unless it's in a piece of equipment that regularly experiences systematic stress, like a joint or lever or something. It'd be fine as a breastplate - it's not going to crack if you trip and fall while wearing it, or even if someone hacks at it. Might have issues with bludgeoning weapons like hammers, though, but no one has any of those kinds of weapons.
Weren't crystal weapons supposed to be markedly superior to steel in every way? Wouldn't mass-produced crystal still be better than steel if it's just slightly worse to hand-made crystal?
*shrug*Did you change your mind?
sure, whatever. same brittality as hardened steel.
(Not trying to be hostile at all; just confused. Whether or not I include crystal steam engines in the Crystalclad depends on this.)
Also Void pls vote for Crystalclads to make more of a consensus and perhaps even an update sooner.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 29, 2017, 01:13:22 am
Post by: RAM on May 29, 2017, 01:42:56 am
I would have thought that crystal would behave very differently from metal. Metal tends to harden from repeated stresses and turn brittle. Crystal has a very precise structure and starts off brittle. I would expect that the vast majority of stresses on crystal are a matter of either working or not working, which would make maintenance and operation a very binary matter. You can't really repair crystal without growing it again and machining it again, probably with a fault-line where the old growth misaligns with the new growth. So, basically, repairs are impossible, you need replacements. Conversly, it doesn't really suffer from degenerative failure. It will have its surface grind off if subjected to the correct forces, and chips can be taken out, but I am not familiar with crystals suffering from repeated heating and cooling. Either it expands enough to shatter along a fault, or it doesn't.
I would imagine that we can either make steam-engines of proportionately large volume out of crystal, which don;t really fail without outside help, and lighter due to superior material performance compared to weight, or smaller metal steam engines which can be maintained and repaired but also need repairs and maintenance. So the metal ones would get you more power for the same volume and could be maintained in the field, while the crystal ones would get your more power per weight and last longer but would need to go back to dock when they failed.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 29, 2017, 02:05:34 am
But it could definitely be a huge help - everything that uses crystal would just repair itself on the field. Crystalclads spontaneously regenerate holes knocked through the armor, personal armor repairs itself; any crystal design could benefit from it.
Post by: Kadzar on May 29, 2017, 02:34:59 am
Also, I will vote for the Crystalclad, though I have two recommendations of things to cut: 1. The Magegem system seems cool, but it might not be ready for implementation on a ship at this time, since I don't think we have confirmation yet that even the most powerful kind can power the necessary fireball spell, much less any work having been done to configure the devices to be compatible. 2. Making the engines out of crystal is also pretty risky. It certainly has benefits, but I'd feel safer at least making it its own revision.
Quote
3 - Crystalclad: Chiefwaffles, Andres, KadzarAlso, I was planning to do some sort of RP introduction of myself being a common soldier who went to the mage academy so that he could join the design team and give those eggheads a piece of his mind, but it's late and I'm tired, so maybe next time.
1 - Rod To God: RAM
0 Ragnarok Rounds
0 Metaconjuration
0 Vine Mine
0 Antiluck wards
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 29, 2017, 03:00:57 am
I'm not too sure about the crystal engines too, though. Because it is sneaking a revision onto a design. At this point, I'm probably going to let it sit until morning and hope to get more feedback or if Evicted does it, mercy from the god that is RnG.
You should post your joining story in the core thread to share examples of Arstotzkan dominance. Though I find it a bit hard to believe that an apprentice
Also on a lesser note, I really want to revise breech-loading cannons some day. I'm not even sure how we're loading the HA1 at this point. Ladders? Human stacking?
Some day.
Post by: RAM on May 29, 2017, 03:29:37 am
read through this entire threadOxymoronsayswhat?
would like to join
Welcome aboard! We always have room for the mad ones!
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 29, 2017, 04:43:57 am
Future(?) Revision: Blastgem
We've had experience with anti-magic arrows. Made using crystal in the same manner we use our anti-magic charms and magegems, they're unstable enough to explode in magical contact. This proves that we can utilize magegems' explosive potential without converting it into things such as fireballs. The presence of too much magic in a container leads to an explosion. Our anti-magic arrows were notably weak because of their containers' low capacities. But using the storage of an AA-sized magegem, we can fill it up to the brim in capacity allowing to unleash a sufficiently devastating explosion.
The Blastgem is a simple revision to the Magegem. We add a basic "timer" circuit (we've done much more complicated things with circuits in the past) to a slightly overcharged AA-sized Magegem. When the circuit is activated by a very firm touch for multiple seconds, it activates. The circuit will tick down, and once it reaches zero, will cause a "spark" in the overcharged magegem, making it explode.
TL;DR: We make a grenade by overcharging a Magegem. Then later, we can revise this grenade using our experience with the Equalizer into an explosive shell for our artillery, freeing up a design slot that we would have had to use for an explosive shell.
The Blastgem is immediately useful in close-range/melee combat, as any of our soldiers can use it as a grenade. This makes it have some use now, but their artillery is still dampening that fact. But, using Blastgems and experience from the SO1-AM Equalizer (anti-magic shell), we can revise the Blastgem into an explosive shell. So if we were to revise the blastgem this turn then the explosive ammo next turn, we would be able to use next turn's design for something else. Sure, it's not a fireball, but I'm worried about overinvesting in the department of fire, since it is something that can be countered.
Perhaps even better, this serves as a huge stepping stone for other things like Firegem, Chaogem, Lifegem, Frostgem, and more.
Post by: Andres on May 29, 2017, 10:20:22 am
I'm not too sure about the crystal engines too, though. Because it is sneaking a revision onto a design.((It's not "sneaking" a revision into a design. That kind of thing is perfectly in line with designs. Again, look at tanks in Arms Race. It's perfectly fine, valid, and normal to improve multiple things about a tank and even add in new things. One completely normal design is to make a tank with thicker frontal armour, a turbocharged engine, and a spotlight.))
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 29, 2017, 10:28:05 am
Quote
4 - Crystalclad: Chiefwaffles, Andres, Kadzar, FallacyofUrist
1 - Rod To God: RAM
0 Ragnarok Rounds
0 Metaconjuration
0 Vine Mine
0 Antiluck wards
I say we use our revision to revise our Equalizer shells. I can only imagine what it'll do to the Moskurgians' magical armor.
For now, though, I would like to see a better ship.
Edit: fixed.
Post by: Andres on May 29, 2017, 11:26:59 am
Take a look at the last page. That vote quote of yours is quite outdated. Revising the Equaliser shells is a good idea, though.2 - Crystalclad: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
1 - Explosive Ammunition: Andres
1 - Rod To God: RAM
0 Ragnarok Rounds
0 Metaconjuration
0 Vine Mine
0 Antiluck wards
I say we use our revision to revise our Equalizer shells. I can only imagine what it'll do to the Moskurgians' magical armor.
For now, though, I would like to see a better ship.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 29, 2017, 04:26:42 pm
And what do people think of an APC-like vehicle in the near future? The one I posted actually seems plausible - a crystal vehicle powered by a steam engine that carries 8 people around safely. If the Crystalclad succeeds, we'll have light crystal steam engines as well as extensive experience in making vehicles and other large objects out of crystal. Then all we need to do is make a new crystal "hull", put wheels on it, and make the engine power the wheels instead of paddles.
I am getting a bit tired of constantly playing catchup, even if we have been doing well at that lately. An APC would actually allow our troops to get to the front lines which is a huge problem with Moskurger artillery. It'd protect them from air attacks as well among many more things.
Post by: andrea on May 29, 2017, 04:37:01 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 29, 2017, 04:46:35 pm
While making it work off of anti-magic shrapnel spread across a wide area would be nice, the shell is still buggy. With the right fluff, we can have the revision automatically make it Very Expensive instead of a NE thanks to our metal/crystal bonus. Then we can dedicate the rest of the revision towards making it not explode. If all goes right, we'll have a reliable and actually manageably expensive anti-magic shell.
Because it is pretty powerful now, as the effect is permanent as long as the shell is intact. We just want to be able to make it safe and actually able to be used in the field.
However, it may have a problem with their ships as our shells just tend to ricochet off. The Equalizer won't be particularly useful if it disables magic at the bottom of the ocean, so for now we may still be better off doing an AP shell/the blastgem. Anti-magic shrapnel would fix this but I'd still rather not put exploding cannons on our ships.
Post by: andrea on May 29, 2017, 05:06:14 pm
The main problem with it is that it has to land very close to a ballista to have any effect at all, the big ball is rather short ranged. I admit however that making the crystals not explode near our cannons would still be a step in the right direction... But that can be solved by a good casing surrounding the crystals maybe?
I have went and checked the original design. It explodes because of jamming if it shatters at launch. It is very expensive because it uses a lot of charms and because it is custom made for each cannon. Custom made can be solved by crystal shells maybe? would help making them more easily. Quantity of charms isn't something we can reduce, until we make it a bit more explosive.
Post by: Andres on May 29, 2017, 05:07:25 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 29, 2017, 05:12:07 pm
For the revision, we can do things like a stronger metal casing, getting the metal bonus. We could try to replace it with crystal and use an AAA magegem to "absorb" the magic acquired during firing, preventing it from exploding in the barrel and therefore get the crystal bonus. There are lots of things we could do.
And good point, Andres.
Post by: Andres on May 29, 2017, 05:16:49 pm
For the revision, we can do things like a stronger metal casing, getting the metal bonus. We could try to replace it with crystal and use an AAA magegem to "absorb" the magic acquired during firing, preventing it from exploding in the barrel and therefore get the crystal bonus. There are lots of things we could do.That magic absorption stuff is overly complex and unnecessary. That said, I think we should include crystal in the design to knock it down an expense level.
How do the resource bonuses work? What do they do? That's confused me. I thought it gave +1 to roll involving them but now I'm not sure.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: andrea on May 29, 2017, 05:19:39 pm
we will discover that next turn , anyway, if we make the shell cheaper and more reliable.
if crystalclad turns out good, maybe we want to spend the expense credit on it?
@Waffles: from the turn they were introduced, "We manage to land one close enough to a Moskurg artillery piece that the magic powering it falters and it falls comically short of our lines". That seems to imply the range is not that great. keep in mind that radius of effect grows with the cubic root of the charm volume, so while it has bigger range, it is not so big that accuracy doesn't matter. And right now our accuracy is hidnered by the fact that we are mostly shooting blind, with only an indication of the general area of the enemy (flares). We may land a shot only 10-15 meter from target, but we can't actually target much.
using magegems to absorb magic acquired should not be a problem, the charms we used are not of the exploding variety. They jam and destroy the cannon, but they don't explode in the barrel.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 29, 2017, 05:21:48 pm
Spoiler: Future Designs (click to show/hide)
How do the resource bonuses work? What do they do? That's confused me. I thought it gave +1 to roll involving them but now I'm not sure.I'm fairly sure they take things using them down an expensive level.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 29, 2017, 05:25:12 pm
For general reference.
Design: SO1-AM "Equalizer" [2-1+1, 2-1, 1]The problem with replacing it with crystal is that crystal explodes. We have two types of anti-magic: Gem (like the charms) and Crystal (anti-magic arrows). The magic used in the firing process will always detonate the anti-magic material if it's unstable. So if we replaced it with crystal, we should probably include some plan on how to fix the exploding problem regardless of whether we want it to explode or not after launch.
This turned out to be a lot tougher than we thought.
The good news is that it is possible, just...difficult. And we were required to make some concessions in the design.
Rather than a single, massive anti-magic charm, we've instead crafted an ordinary cannon shell that has multiple anti-magic charms encrusted throughout it. Because using charms that explode has invariable destroyed every cannon we've attempted this with (likely due to the PSF cast in the steam chamber) we've been forced instead to use our more up-to-date charms that sadly don't exploded into lethal shrapnel. They still have a chance to break when being fired out of a cannon though, and this occassionally causes it to jam and explode violently.
However, if enough of the gems survive and the cannon doesn't explode, the shell will prevent any magic from being cast near where it lands. Surprisingly, our researchers note that when the charms overlap the volume of the anti-magic field is preserved. Having multiple charms in the same area negates magic in a larger area, although continuing to add charms has diminishing returns with respect to range.
Due to the number of charms and extra effort to craft each shell for each specific cannon, these shells are terribly expensive and we can only make enough to outfit one cannon per year. National Effort.
@Andrea: That does not imply range isn't great. Directly before that statement is an overview of the Equalizer's flaws which does not include range. It's implying the Equalizer isn't great because we only have one cannon firing it and that cannon tends to explode often.
Also, our HC1-Es are still very effective and fire using line-of-sight.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 29, 2017, 05:32:41 pm
But we're going to need better Magegems to push our magical machinery further. Our best Gem can currently power a few flare spells.
Post by: Andres on May 29, 2017, 05:36:35 pm
As for our anti-magic shells, their effect is good, it's just that their reliability is a bit off. Get that and include some of our new crystal and everything should be fine and cheap.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 29, 2017, 05:43:48 pm
1.) D: Crystalclad
2.) R: Equalizer/AP Shell/Blastgem
3.) D: Explosive Ammo?
4.) R: Blastgem (or problem fixing)
5.) D: APC1 Pursuer
6.) R: Fix APC's inevitable problems
Also, at some point, enlarged eagles or at least better falcons would help. Right now they're notably effective but they're obviously not a hard counter and by doing things like "give our guys better bows" or "make carpets outrun falcons" or "give our guys armor", etc., they could probably be countered. I think it's a good idea to upgrade our air forces before that happens so we're not taken by surprise.
Also, giant eagles fitting at least one mage would be the equivalent of an attack plane and it'd be awesome.
Magegems I think we should hold off on until we've actually used them a bit. An AA gem could probably power at least a Streamlined Fireball if not a PSF. With vehicles and the like we can simply wire them in series. We should probably wait until we know what we need to do with them. Since the Crystalclad will be our first magegem design, after all.
Post by: Andres on May 29, 2017, 05:51:08 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 29, 2017, 05:51:37 pm
So two more designs.
Spoiler: Two more designs. (click to show/hide)
Magegems I think we should hold off on until we've actually used them a bit. An AA gem could probably power at least a Streamlined Fireball if not a PSF. With vehicles and the like we can simply wire them in series. We should probably wait until we know what we need to do with them. Since the Crystalclad will be our first magegem design, after all.Our best gem can only fuel a few Flares, as our equipment report details. Wiring them in series is an option, but it'll increase our expense by quite a bit. We need better magegems... for our revision after our Equalizer revision, maybe.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 29, 2017, 06:01:03 pm
Like if we were to ever do magic rifles, then Magegems may need to be addressed. But for now, no.
@Andres: It seems interesting and useful, but like Fallacy said, it seems a bit ambitious since the spell would be acting autonomously far beyond what we've ever done. Especially considering a fireball post-creation isn't actually magical. We'd basically be putting a computer and sensor package inside a fireball when all we've done is simple integrated circuits. That being said, if I did believe we could feasibly do it I'd support it a lot more.
@Fallacy's designs: I think for anti-air, we could design a new cannon and revise basic flak shells. I actually posted a design for this kind of cannon a while back, but it could be breech-loading, magegem powered, mounted on a swivel mount allowing for extreme angles of fire up/down and 360 degrees of freedom when turning side-to-side. Maybe give it two barrels and/or reduce barrel size to further emphasize lots of projectiles at once.
The Crystal Spyglass is definitely an interesting idea. It's simple and can increase the effectiveness of our BLOS artillery and extend the life expectancy of our apprentices.
Post by: Andres on May 29, 2017, 06:03:54 pm
Deflecting their projectiles would be nice, but shooting something into the air that stays up, targets enemy projectiles, then shoots them out of the air? The fireball would have to calculate where the projectile will be, not where it is. It's a bit out of reach.It really isn't out of reach. Those kinds of calculations are basic compared to the higher level stuff our mathemagic requires. The 'staying up in the air' bit is already handled by both our Flare and in part by our Fire Wall, which is all about staying in one place.
The targeting of projectiles and shooting them out of the air bits are the only truly new things, but again, we have a lot of bonuses in this kind of spell.
Glory to Arstotzka.
@Andres: It seems interesting and useful, but like Fallacy said, it seems a bit ambitious since the spell would be acting autonomously far beyond what we've ever done. Especially considering a fireball post-creation isn't actually magical. We'd basically be putting a computer and sensor package inside a fireball when all we've done is simple integrated circuits. That being said, if I did believe we could feasibly do it I'd support it a lot more.I really think you're overcomplicating it. This is magic, not science. We have a great deal of leeway we otherwise wouldn't have due to that fact. ((Seriously, not EVERYTHING we do has to be magitek. We can and should do some generic spellcasting. This, ultimately, is a simple design when looking at it through the lense of a wizard rather than through the lense of an engineer.))
EDIT: ((Seriously, just look at Moskurg's Lucky Shot. If Moskurg approached that spell with your attitude, they never would've got it. Think MAGIC, not science.))
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 29, 2017, 06:13:15 pm
Regardless, I do still think the MDF is a bit overambitious just in its intention, regardless of how we do it. But I'm not completely against the idea and we'll see next design phase.
Post by: Kadzar on May 29, 2017, 06:16:30 pm
Crystal Spyglass: We've removed the need for spotters, for the moment. We've discovered that crystal can bend light. By exploring and exploiting this property, we've had the Crystalworks create a "spyglass", or as our astronomers like to call them, "telescope". It's a telescoping device that focuses light towards the user's eye, effectively letting them see things from far away very easily. ((Basically a handheld refractor telescope using crystal lenses.))What a coincidence; I was just about to propose a telescope, too.
I mean, I am worried that flares might make them a bit redundant, but this way we wouldn't have to worry about our spotters getting targeted, and I don't think we can even use spotters at sea, currently, so it would be a big help there. It might even stack with flares, giving a straight accuracy boost. Plus, we have the manufacturing down pat, so we could possibly even get them for cheap, if there was somehow a need for such a thing. And it could eventually be used to make scopes for steam sniper rifles (how can you say no to that?)
Post by: evictedSaint on May 29, 2017, 06:18:26 pm
The Crystalclad is based heavily off of our existing steamships. The most notable change is that it's now almost entirely made out of crystal, featuring our most ambitious design yet. The crystal hull is smooth and sloping, dictated by a complicated curve formula that occupies the majority of the crystalworks circuit for the design, but allows the ship to cut through water just as easily as our existing ships. Because of the difficulty combining crystal with wood or steel, the majority of the ship is just smooth crystal with the occasional eyehole to mount hammocks, furniture, ropes, equipment, and the two steam engines that power the ship itself. This has a tendency to make the floors slick, especially when wet.
The steam engine setup is pretty much just copied from the SPB1 Fog-O-War, being two steam engines hooked up to a four-blade paddle on the rear. The armament has been upgraded, allowing either three HC1-E's or a single HA1 to be mounted above-deck. Because shooting beyond line of sight is less helpful on the high seas and requires three apprentices to fire, the Crystalclad design instead features three HC1-E's that can all be fired by a single apprentice by themselves, as the higher firerate is more beneficial despite the decreased lethality of the individual cannons. Thanks to the increased number of apprentices we have at our disposal, each ship features two apprentices; one to operate the steam engines, and the second to fire off the cannons.
It is relatively wide-berthed, allowing a decent amount of troops or cargo to be transported much in the way our current longships do. The crystal is slightly heavier than wood (but not as heavy as steel), and though it is now fire resistant the ship is no faster than the Fog-O-War.
The steam engines generate a fair bit of vibration, which is a significant problem. After a few days, microfractures begin appearing in the steam engine mounting and require magical maintenance to prevent cracking. Even more problematic is the fact that being made of crystal changes the center of gravity on the ship, and rolling seas have a tendency to capsize the ship.
Over all, the ship should be more resilient to damage without sacrificing speed, and has a higher damage output to boot. The fact that the ship is primarily made out of crystal means it's merely Expensive.
Post by: Andres on May 29, 2017, 06:32:17 pm
Make our Equalisers not suck and incorporate machined crystal in the design.
Use the Expense Credit on our frost towers. To give us an edge in all ground theatres and enable further advances into the Desert.
Send Myark to the Jungle. Better not have him on our ships until we get them fixed, but we need better shells more than we need safer ships. This at least ensures the Moskurgs are kicked out of the Jungle.
Quote
REVISION
1 - Equaliser fix + machine crystal: Andres
MYARK
1 - Jungle: Andres
EXPENSE CREDIT:
1- frost towers: Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 29, 2017, 06:33:17 pm
Got some questions, though.
Does the Crystalclad incorporate the layout I mentioned in the design? Like in terms of decks, etc. - are our crew (other than the people manning the weapons) mostly on the upper or inner deck?
Is there a Magegem Battery incorporated into the design?
We did not get crystal engines from this design, right?
But other than that, here's a revision to fix the number one bug which actually seems quite serious. We really don't want waves capsizing our ships.
Revision: Crystalclad Optimizations
Our Mathemagicians shall make adjustments to the formulas ran through the Crystalworks along with minor tweaks to the layout of the Crystalclad in order to create a much more secure and safe center of gravity ensuring the ship no longer capsizes at sea.
And the Equalizer revision.
Revision: SO2-AM Equalizer
The new SO2-AM fixes multiple complications with the previous design. The use of anti-magic charms has been replaced with solid anti-magic crystal. The crystal has been specifically tuned to not explode and retain the same qualities and advantages of the previous anti-magic charm version of the shell. This replacement means that the charms can no longer get loose, eradicating our problem of cannons jamming and exploding. The crystal is produced by the Crystalworks too, making it much cheaper than before.
Alternatively, we can just make a thicker/more secure metal shell. Metal bonus + fixes problem of charms getting loose.
@Andres: This is basically what you want, right?
Post by: Andres on May 29, 2017, 06:36:28 pm
@Andres: This is basically what you want, right?Yup.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 29, 2017, 06:39:52 pm
Quote
REVISION
2 - SO2-AM Equalizer (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7469027#msg7469027): Andres, Chiefwaffles
MYARK
2 - Jungle: Andres, Chiefwaffles
EXPENSE CREDIT:
2 - Frost Towers: Andres, Chiefwaffles
Post by: Andres on May 29, 2017, 06:45:32 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 29, 2017, 07:00:08 pm
Should we give an order for our falcons to have an anti-magic charm wrapped around one of their legs? That might be sufficient to make their carpets go crashing down.
Glory to Arstotzka.
They already do, to protect against wind spells. We could train them to attack the carpets rather then faces.
Post by: Andres on May 29, 2017, 07:02:30 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 29, 2017, 07:29:39 pm
((You know, our crystal is light enough and strong enough that we can probably make gyrocopters (https://i.ytimg.com/vi/3GnX1MzLSxQ/maxresdefault.jpg) out of them once we get our steam engines light enough.))... we probably could, couldn't we? Would take a few turns, though.
Quote
REVISION
3 - SO2-AM Equalizer (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7469027#msg7469027): Andres, Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
MYARK
3 - Jungle: Andres, Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
EXPENSE CREDIT:
2 - Frost Towers: Andres, Chiefwaffles
1 - Crystalclad: FallacyofUrist
I agree on the revision(I was basically trying to do that last turn anyways) and where to send Myark(though the plains is a close second), but I think naval superiority is more important than spamming frost towers our foes can possibly turn against us with their desert wind spell.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 29, 2017, 07:32:15 pm
Hell, it's already Expensive, making it our cheapest ship yet. It's cheaper than our starting boats even.
Also, I thought about gyrocopters, but it doesn't feel like it'd be worth the time investment. Not everything has to be magitech. We already have the ability to manipulate and modify birds. And how could you think an eagle with a cannon strapped to it isn't cool? How?
Post by: Andres on May 29, 2017, 07:34:23 pm
but I think naval superiority is more important than spamming frost towers our foes can possibly turn against us with their desert wind spell.We will already have naval superiority with our Expensive ships and our anti-magic ammunition. The frost towers will give us ground superiority. You're also under the misconception that it's bad against their desert wind spell. In actuality, our frost towers are what's preventing their desert wind spell from roasting our men alive in the Desert. We'll need more of them in case they upgrade that spell.
Glory to Arstotzka.
EDIT:
Also, I thought about gyrocopters, but it doesn't feel like it'd be worth the time investment. Not everything has to be magitech. We already have the ability to manipulate and modify birds. And how could you think an eagle with a cannon strapped to it isn't cool? How?I honestly think it's silly. Furthermore, gyrocopters would be cheaper and more durable due to crystal.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 29, 2017, 07:39:10 pm
I really want to fix that slippery floor problem the most. It is just such bad optics to have our sailors going all three stooges.
Post by: Andres on May 29, 2017, 07:42:11 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 29, 2017, 07:43:18 pm
Like Andres said, the Crystalclad is going to be replaced eventually, and it's not really worth spending an expense credit on. Whereas spending it on something like the Frost Towers is a permanent and powerful effect.Wait, expense credits are permanent?
Hell, it's already Expensive, making it our cheapest ship yet. It's cheaper than our starting boats even.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 29, 2017, 07:46:03 pm
And yes, in Wands Race, expense credits are permanent.
Post by: RAM on May 29, 2017, 07:48:13 pm
If we make the crystal clads cheap, any new boat we make can be more expensive, with the crystal clads still having a fleet role as escorts.Don't fix problems, overcome them. We could probably produce some sort of clog-plant that produces ideal footwear for traversing rough terraing. Or a rubbermelon that is filled with sticky sap that can coat an object and make it frictious and buoyant.
I really want to fix that slippery floor problem the most. It is just such bad optics to have our sailors going all three stooges.
School of hard rocks
We add a training field of hardened targets to our academies. Along with a course on methemagics and thamonometry and mageometry, all specialising in applying atarget correction to magical formulae. And then there are the combat trials, often known as flarefights... The result is that our mages have the knowledge and practice to apply precision to both their manual aiming and the aiming portions of the spellwork itself. It is hoped that this will allow our mages to put a fireball through a ballista port at three-hundred metres...
Post by: Andres on May 29, 2017, 07:54:53 pm
That'd be an awesome progression of falcons, actually, Andres. Though the way I see it, we should still have two types of air units: Attack/Ground Support and air superiority. Firebolt large falcons could provide limited ground support and be extremely effective against enemy air units, but then we could make giant eagles to at least put mages onto for magical bombardment.I must apologise, because while I was thinking of this I forgot about an idea I had long ago: fire ray. Imagine a ray of light except the light is made of fire and it burns things. LOS-range, hit-scan projectile trajectory, lightspeed projectile speed. The original idea was to make a fire ray cannon and mount them on our ships, but making our falcons capable of the spell would be good as well.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 29, 2017, 07:56:35 pm
If we make the crystal clads cheap, any new boat we make can be more expensive, with the crystal clads still having a fleet role as escorts.Along with a course on methemagics
I really want to fix that slippery floor problem the most. It is just such bad optics to have our sailors going all three stooges.
This might have the opposite effect of increased concentration and steadying nerves.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 29, 2017, 07:59:16 pm
This might have the opposite effect of increased concentration and steadying nerves.
Have I ever told you I love your optimism?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 29, 2017, 08:36:46 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 29, 2017, 08:39:41 pm
This might have the opposite effect of increased concentration and steadying nerves.
Have I ever told you I love your optimism?
On the other hand, with plant magic maybe we can get all the enemy soldiers hooked on opium.
Post by: Kadzar on May 29, 2017, 08:40:21 pm
When the meteor first landed, there was much speculation about what it contained and what it could be used for. Among these wild proposals was the idea that they could create a humongous eagle by feeding it some alien extract. And this gave our researchers an idea.
By using our knowledge of plant magic, and through much trial-and-error, we've been able to devise an extract that can be fed to our falcons to grow them to monstrous size. No where near as large as the giant battle eagle that inspired their creation, and and maybe not even big enough to hold a rider at this point, but they are now stronger, faster, and, most importantly, more than a match for some silly Moskurg wizard armed with a scimitar.
TL, DR: Bigger falcons, possibly able to take a rider but more emphasis put on making them strong enough to take on wizards.
Quote
REVISION
3 - SO2-AM Equalizer (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7469027#msg7469027): Andres, Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
1 - Giant Mutant Falcons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7469165#msg7469165): Kadzar
MYARK
3 - Jungle: Andres, Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Kadzar
EXPENSE CREDIT:
2 - Frost Towers: Andres, Chiefwaffles
1 - Crystalclad: FallacyofUrist
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 29, 2017, 08:52:44 pm
While I dislike the Equalizer in general, I think it will always be too expensive to be worth it and it amounts to trying to crush our enemies with expensive diamonds, working on different round types will be useful knowledge.
SO2-AM Equalizer
Quote
REVISION
4 - SO2-AM Equalizer (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7469027#msg7469027): Andres, Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, voidslayer
1 - Giant Mutant Falcons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7469165#msg7469165): Kadzar
MYARK
3 - Jungle: Andres, Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Kadzar
EXPENSE CREDIT:
2 - Frost Towers: Andres, Chiefwaffles
2 - Crystalclad: FallacyofUrist, voidslayer
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 29, 2017, 09:05:03 pm
Also, some notes for what to do to improve naval combat:
1.) Better HA1 firing (One of the reasons it's not on the Crystalclad is the fact that it requires 3 apprentices to fire.)
2.) Magegem Battery (Assuming it's not on the Crystalclad. Could help with above and other factors)
3.) No capsizing
4.) No slippery floors
5.) Entirely indoors. Including weapons.
6.) And more.
We should probably make a new design for all this at some point instead of doing each in a revision. That's why we shouldn't use the Expense credit on it. At least save the expense credit if you don't want it going to the Frost Towers.
@Kadzar: We should definitely do that revision in the near future.
Miscellaneous note:
Future Design: SPB2-U "Hunter"
Our boats will always suffer from being shot at. But we can remove that annoyance!
The SPB2-U "Hunter" uses an innovational chamber inside the hull filled with gases (that we have experience with thanks to all we've done with steam) or water. We can manipulate this using a smaller steam engine to pump water in/out of the chamber. By including this with an entirely-indoors interior and completely watertight hull, we can make a boat that sails underwater completely.
The design requires some kind of underwater weapon. Either torpedoes or something else that can fire underwater.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 29, 2017, 09:13:06 pm
I can see your points on the Frost Towers expense credit. Before I change my vote, though, you think we wouldn't keep the bonus if we revised the Crystalclad, and do you think we won't ever come up with a replacement for the Frost Towers?
Post by: Andres on May 29, 2017, 09:19:33 pm
Before I change my vote, though, you think we wouldn't keep the bonus if we revised the Crystalclad, and do you think we won't ever come up with a replacement for the Frost Towers?1. We're probably going to design a new ship rather than revise the crystalclad, which is why we don't want to apply the Expense credit to it.
2. For a weather-altering apparatus, there's nothing better than the frost towers, or at the very least nothing so much better than the frost towers that it's worth using a Design on that instead of something else. Meanwhile, there are many ways we can improve the crystalclad and then many further ways we can improve the improvement.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on May 29, 2017, 09:35:44 pm
Quote
REVISION[/quote]
4 - SO2-AM Equalizer (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7469027#msg7469027): Andres, Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, voidslayer
1 - Giant Mutant Falcons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7469165#msg7469165): Kadzar
0 - School of hard rocks (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7469110#msg7469110)
MYARK
3 - Jungle: Andres, Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Kadzar
EXPENSE CREDIT:
3 - Frost Towers: Andres, Chiefwaffles, RAM
2 - Crystalclad: FallacyofUrist, voidslayer
Post by: evictedSaint on May 29, 2017, 11:51:12 pm
The new SO2-AM fixes multiple complications with the previous design.
We can't exactly make an anti-magic crystal large enough to make an entire shell, but we can fix the design of the shell into one that won't break and jam or cost ludicrous amounts of cash. The new design features a number of anti-magic gems in the core of the shell, all linked together with a crystal wire to a nickel circuit. A small AAA magegem powers the circuit, but due to the small size it must be inserted just before firing to ensure the internal juice doesn't wind down before it's sent off. The AAA gem powers the circuit, which keeps the magegems "off" - at least, until the battery is spent. Once the circuit is no longer keeping the anti-magic field suppressed it turns back on in full-force. This crude "timing circuit" keeps the shell inert while being fired, only turning on once the battery runs out - hopefully down range. If the battery is run down before firing, the field will prevent the attending apprentices from firing their PSF charges and the shell will need to go through a lengthy removal process before the cannon can be used again. This shell is designed specifically for our HA1 artillery.
The improved, clever design cuts down on wasted anti-magic gems and lowers the cost from National Effort to Very Expensive.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 29, 2017, 11:54:59 pm
The HA1 restriction is annoying but our Crystalclads should still easily win at sea. However, this revision does actually give us a ton of very useful experience. Priming mechanisms, timers, general small integrated circuitry (we have an AAA battery powering a timer circuit that we use as a priming mechanism!) and other experience needed for shells.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 30, 2017, 12:26:04 am
Post by: helmacon on May 30, 2017, 12:32:28 am
commonly usable.
Post by: RAM on May 30, 2017, 12:57:28 am
We ought to use threvison next turn to make our flare wands run on magegems. It would save us a lot of apprentices, and make them moreAnd would give them to trained cavalry and scouts rather than support elements.
commonly usable.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 30, 2017, 12:59:19 am
Future Revision: Magegem Tech
We refit all magitech - HA1, HC1-E, and the steam engine - to be able to accept power from crystal conduits and to have slots for magegems of any size (regardless of how effective that size would be). In addition, we make some minor revisions to the circuitry where necessary to be able to accept this power for all of its operation (assuming there's enough) instead of relying on a mage to cast the spell.
The desired result is all our tech being able to operate without a mage as long as they're connected to power via crystal conduit or Magegem.
You know what I also want? Giant powered artillery emplacements, with power being routed to them by a power generator. Would make our fortifications a lot stronger. Actually, on that note...
Future Design: Aethergem
We've done some research into the way our mages harness new magical power from seemingly thin air.
Their families have been compensated well.
We still have a very paltry understanding of it, but we believe it's enough to work. Through careful spells, we can imbue a Magegem with a mild power to generate magical energy autonomously. The generation rate is quite slow and is clearly beaten by the raw power of the lowliest apprentice, but it's a huge breakthrough.
With the Aethergem, our creations can no longer require mages. They work exactly the same as Magegems in every way but their ability to create power. So with an AA-sized magegem fit into a cannon, that cannon will be able to recharge without a mage present.
Of course, mages are still good things to have. With our weaponry, Aethergems don't immediately recharge - it can take quite a while for a Magegem to charge enough to power a shot or whatnot. But they can still be recharged by mages. But think of the possibilities - we can wire tons of Aethergems in series to create a kind of power plant and connect it to our weapons and magitech. We can issue our troops Aethergems to use where needed and store on their person while recharging. If we ever develop magic rifles, our troops' ammunition doesn't have to be restocked and they can use their weapon indefinitely in the field. Our Crystalclads could operate with zero mages. And much, much more.
If their prices match those of our Magegems, Aethergems shall completely phase out Magegems. Otherwise, those who can be given Aethergems shall, to allow (even more but still present) limited operation in our magitech without a wizard presence.
Post by: andrea on May 30, 2017, 01:35:12 am
But they would be an useful addition indeed!
speaking of that, why not cheaper magegems? considering that they can be wired together to achieve better power, cheaper AAA gems might allow the fireball effect we want on shells. and while they will be revised, I don't think we will ever stop using them.
Or we could save up the expense credit until we have something that truly needs it. Crystalclad seems already at a good expense level, honestly.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 30, 2017, 02:18:28 am
We train our falcons to cast spells.
Post by: RAM on May 30, 2017, 02:26:14 am
Okay bear with me on this.I, umm, well, okay. The obvious answer is that you are being brazenly ridiculous. We have a dificult enough time training humans to use magic. But then one realises, we already have experience is explicitly training magic, with a facility, and explicitly training falcons. It would take a design, at least, but having formulated a formalissed magic curriculum, we can probably direct magic through falcons in a manner that grantes them awareness of magic, and can probably train them to behave on command in a way that manifests magic. Of course, this wouldn't be nexcessary if we had gone with the summoning route and just summoned things that laready knew how to breath fire, but the point is that we do have the correct fields of expertise...
We train our falcons to cast spells.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 30, 2017, 02:31:50 am
Imagine the surprise when one of the falcons fires a mini fireball.
We would have to give up the antimagic charms on the controlled falcons though.
Post by: andrea on May 30, 2017, 02:41:10 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 30, 2017, 08:42:56 am
For this turn, we do still need to decide on the expense credit... and I'll change my vote to Frost Towers, considering they'll be deployed in the desert and the desert wind will push chilled air into the lands we fight in. That said, we will probably need to increase our naval advantage next turn in some manner. I suspect the Moskurgs will continue to work on their ships. Some sort of water-freezing shell, maybe.
Quote
MYARK
3 - Jungle: Andres, Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Kadzar
EXPENSE CREDIT:
4 - Frost Towers: Andres, Chiefwaffles, RAM, FallacyofUrist
1 - Crystalclad: voidslayer
Hypothetical plan for the next year:
Design: Freezing Shell or Dreadnaught MK I Armored Transport
Revision: Magegem Tech(if we actually need it), Improved Crystalworks otherwise.
Thoughts?
Post by: andrea on May 30, 2017, 08:46:08 am
Quote
MYARK
3 - Jungle: Andres, Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Kadzar
EXPENSE CREDIT:
4 - Frost Towers: Andres, Chiefwaffles, RAM, FallacyofUrist
1 - Crystalclad: voidslayer
1 - Magegems: Andrea
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 30, 2017, 08:53:14 am
Post by: andrea on May 30, 2017, 09:02:52 am
If I am correct (will ask Es), expensed magegems will be very useful.
If wrong, it would be a wasted credit. Again, will ask.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 30, 2017, 09:49:20 am
Post by: Andres on May 30, 2017, 10:17:39 am
Since giant falcons would allow for better scouting and harassment as well as provide a counter to their explosive ammunition, I'm going to lend my support to that. If we make it an "Enhance Size" spell, we could apply it to humans as well as the falcons which would also have its own uses.
Glory to Arstotzka.
EDIT: Enhance Size would actually have a bunch of uses. It'll make our horses bigger which makes them tougher, faster, and stronger. That improves their use in battle but it also makes them better logistics vehicles as they can carry more stuff for longer and faster.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 30, 2017, 10:20:57 am
Revision: Bigger/Better-in-some-way Falcons
Design: APC1-Pursuer
Revision: Better Magegems?
That sound good?
Post by: Andres on May 30, 2017, 10:32:14 am
Design: Explosive AmmunitionThe first two sound good. It means we'll have to wait a minimum of two years before we get giant falcons, but the Revision should put us in a better position when we try for it.
Revision: Bigger/Better-in-some-way Falcons
Design: APC1-Pursuer
Revision: Better Magegems?
That sound good?
It's the Pursuer that I have misgivings with. Our current steam engines are ludicrously big and are a problem when applied to something as large as ships. Making a steam engine as small as what the Pursuer requires in a single turn would, from what I can tell, be quite overambitious.
As a mid-way point, I would suggest one of two things.
1. A better ship whose main design goal would be to get smaller engines. Our current crystalclad has problems and this'll let us quickly get them ironed out.
2. Some kind of large ground locomotive that travels on tracks to quickly move a large amount of men and materiel. It would be a large logistics improvement, improves our steam engine design, and gives us experience with steam-powered land vehicles.
Glory to Arstotzka.
EDIT: I have another way we can fight against Moskurg's flying carpets: anti-aircraft fireballs. I'm not sure how they would work, exactly. Current ideas are a) a fireball with increased blast area but decreased damage; b) a fireball that explodes into smaller fireballs; c) a fireball that explodes when it gets close to a target; or d) a homing fireball. They all benefit from our experience with the fireball spell.
EDIT: That last one could in future be incorporated into our shells and other projectiles, using its origin point as a fireball variant to avoid the usual malus that comes with developing a new kind of spell.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 30, 2017, 11:18:28 am
It shouldn't be much more complicated, and in a revision, we can make the energy we absorb to freeze stuff turn the shell into a bomb.
Better falcons would be good. Messengers, sentries, very good anti-air... bombers...
I like the idea of the troop transport, but I do think we may need to do some prerequisite work first. Unless we make the troop transport as huge as a battleship... there's an idea.
I do think we should do the Crystal Spyglass soon. Better spotting is a must for apprentice longevity. Either that or flare wands for our mundane troops.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 30, 2017, 11:41:54 am
I've seen them as big and really heavy but not particularly huge since we can fit two of them on our current ships.
EDIT:
Future Design: AS-STV-1 "Relentless"
(Steam Transport Vehicle 1)
The Relentless is the first of its kind: A steam land vehicle. In order to facilitate its large size, large cargo capacity, and large steam engine, we've built tracks - kind of like roads - to allow it to travel on. The tracks will be built as needed and as we move forward in theatres.
The vehicle is divided into cars attached together, and we can hook many cars up to the engine. These cars will range from passenger to goods transport to even weapon carts. This train will be able to move massive amounts of people and goods between the battlefields and Arstotzka at great speeds, greatly improving our performance in battle.
Additionally, the Relentless shall possess a limited HA1 armament to provide occasional fire support and for self defense.
In order to create this design, our Mathemagicians will aim to greatly decrease the size of the steam engine in order to fit it on the engine and driver car without complications. This is a high priority aspect of the design.
Thoughts?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 30, 2017, 01:17:15 pm
Seriously, if we get that, we win on infrastructure and troop transport, period. If we ever get another culture challenge, we win. Also, this makes the supplying of ammunition for our HA1s trivial. We might even get economic bonuses based on our extremely rapid transporting of ore. We don't even have to pollute the atmosphere by burning coal because we are wizards!
I like it.
Especially once we magic up sea trains. Or trains that don't need tracks and have more guns. Battle trains. HAHAHAHA! We'll see what Moskurg things of our magitech when we send in a trackless train into the middle of their lines, firing HC1-Es at them the whole time, then deploying a ton of troops and sentry turrets(yet to be designed)!
I'll vote for it if you change the intended HA1 armament to a HC1-E, because I don't think fitting a HA1 on a train is practical.
Post by: Andres on May 30, 2017, 01:20:30 pm
I'm not sure about explosive shells. I think freezing shells would be a better idea, mainly because of the naval applications. If an exploding shell misses a Sirroco, nothing happens to it. If a freezing shell misses, suddenly it's encased in ice. More margin for error. Also it goes with the frost theme we have.This "frost theme" you speak of does not exist. The only such magic or technology we have that's frost-themed are our frost towers and they work on a very different scale to shells. Frankly, developing freezing shells means applying a kind of magic we've put little study into in a form it's never been applied in twice over (as both a destruction spell and as a shell).
Explosive shells, on the other hand, merely requires us to use Streamlined Fireball or Powerful Streamlined Fireball - spells we have great experience in and which have been used in our cannons for ages, if as a propellant rather than payload.
Future Design: AS-STV-1 "Relentless"It's a good design. The mounting of HA1s will help with that artillery piece's lack of mobility.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 30, 2017, 01:26:03 pm
Do you think an HA1 can fit on a train? And fire without serious recoil problems? If yes, than okay. If not, let's go with an HC1-E instead.
We can probably transport the pieces of our HA1 on a train, though, and assemble it where we need to use it.
Post by: Andres on May 30, 2017, 01:31:23 pm
Do you think an HA1 can fit on a train? And fire without serious recoil problems? If yes, than okay. If not, let's go with an HC1-E instead.A HA1 is only the size of three HC1-Es and HC1-Es are relatively small, so yes, I think we can fit one on a train and have it fire without serious recoil problems, so long as the train is stationary.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 30, 2017, 01:34:53 pm
Benefits:
1. Transport ammunition to front lines (more effective HA1s and HC1-Es)
2. Deliver goods, supplies, weapons, and other things to front line quickly and in bulk.
3. Quickly get large amounts of troops to different places. We'll still need a design to get our troops past their artillery, but the Relentless will allow our troops to quickly move from theatre to theatre, retreat, and to bring in new reinforcements from Arstotzka.
4. Mobile long range fire support with HA1s.
And regarding frost shells, they're more of a niche ammunition. Explosive shells are more or less just a straight upgrade to our current shells. Frost shells would still be useful, but we have less experience with that kind of thing and they're not as generally useful.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 30, 2017, 01:45:11 pm
If a HA1 was properly braced in a Relentless car and the car itself was stationary and braced... okay, possibly... though even a Crystalclad can only hold one HA1. How big would the Relentless train cars be?
Again, totally voting for Relentless, unless Moskurg deploys a new military thing that(like the Sirocco) urgently needs countering.
Post by: Andres on May 30, 2017, 01:52:03 pm
Post by: RAM on May 30, 2017, 03:40:07 pm
GM, if we cancel their wind effects, will our fire wasps once more become effective? Also, if their wind magic needs to be used precisely and in small amounts for their flying carpets, doesn't that mean our wasps could attack them without being blown away?Their carpets seem to remain stationary well enough without attention. It still ought ot make them vulnerable to firealls though. Then again, they can have two wizards and have one pilot and another fighting while a mook throws bombs. That is a big expense in terms of wizards thugh.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 30, 2017, 03:43:41 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 30, 2017, 05:10:01 pm
Also, can't we make an internal combustion engine? This is a bit more complicated and past what I know, so please feel free to correct me if I made any glaring errors.
Future Design: Hybrid Combustion Engine
The Hybrid Combustion Engine, or HCE, is an innovative type of engine designed to completely phase out the large, clunky, and inefficient steam engine we've been using.
The HCE takes full advantage of our circuits. Our steam engines had to be large, clunky, and designed specifically for a mage to be able to cast the correct spells in the correct places. They were inefficient machines to convert magical power into mechanical power. But with circuits, we can greatly miniaturize this process.
To sum up the process, we have four small "combustion chambers" wired with our circuits. The circuits in these chambers summon greatly reduced fireball like explosions. They're nowhere near the caliber of even a Streamlined Fireball, but they're big enough to power the rest of the engine. The explosions summoned by the circuits in the chambers will essentially push out a series of pistons that in turn rotate a crankshaft. The mechanical power from this crankshaft can be used for a number of applications such as moving our boats, creating land vehicles, and more.
The HCE can be connected to an external power source via crystal conduit, or can be powered by an 2x AA-size Magegem battery. The "mini fireball" spell used by the HCE's circuits is designed to be energy efficient and even disregarding increased efficiency, already uses extreme amounts of power less than even a flare due to its greatly reduced size. Therefore, the integrated battery can power the HCE for roughly 12 hours of continued operation before charging. The battery can be recharged via the crystal conduit or by a mage if the engine is disconnected from a power source.
The HCE is significantly smaller than our steam engines and produces a lot more power for the same magical energy costs.
TL;DR: We apply the concepts we've learned so far in magitech to make a mini fireball-powered internal combustion engine. The engine will be much more smaller and efficient than our steam engines and could be used in just about anything.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 30, 2017, 06:17:45 pm
Post by: Andres on May 30, 2017, 07:50:25 pm
please feel free to correct me if I made any glaring errors.Remove "Hybrid" from the title. It's unnecessary. Unseemly, even.
Future Design: Hybrid Combustion Engine
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 30, 2017, 07:59:29 pm
Give me an alternative then that still fits it. I'm not naming it "combustion engine" or "internal combustion engine" because if it was just an ICE than it'd be using fuel to do the work instead of spells.
@Void:
It's actually not theoretical. It should be very possible to immediately get a working version that we can then put in new designs.
And not every design needs to be immediately combat-applicable. We did spend a lot of time with the Magegems and Crystalworks, yes, but that's already paying off. And it's not like we desperately need new designs. We are winning right now after all. With the Crystalclad this turn and our new stuff next turn, we should have more space for a design that'll be extremely useful for vehicles.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 30, 2017, 08:15:31 pm
The engine does actually have a use: it greatly increases the speed of our ships, and can give them more space for guns and ammo.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 30, 2017, 08:44:35 pm
It now has a crystal casing and has its name changed.
Future Design: Internal Detonation Engine
The Internal Detonation Engine, or IDE, is an innovative type of engine designed to completely phase out the large, clunky, and inefficient steam engine we've been using.
The IDE takes full advantage of our circuits. Our steam engines had to be large, clunky, and designed specifically for a mage to be able to cast the correct spells in the correct places. They were inefficient machines to convert magical power into mechanical power. But with circuits, we can greatly miniaturize this process.
To sum up the process, we have four small "combustion chambers" wired with our circuits. The circuits in these chambers summon greatly reduced fireball like explosions. They're nowhere near the caliber of even a Streamlined Fireball, but they're big enough to power the rest of the engine. The explosions summoned by the circuits in the chambers will essentially push out a series of pistons that in turn rotate a crankshaft. The mechanical power from this crankshaft can be used for a number of applications such as moving our boats, creating land vehicles, and more.
The IDE can be connected to an external power source via crystal conduit, or can be powered by an 2x AA-size Magegem battery. The "mini fireball" spell used by the IDE's circuits is designed to be energy efficient and even disregarding increased efficiency, already uses extreme amounts of power less than even a flare due to its greatly reduced size. Therefore, the integrated battery can power the IDE for roughly 12 hours of continued operation before charging. The battery can be recharged via the crystal conduit or by a mage if the engine is disconnected from a power source.
The IDE is significantly smaller than our steam engines and produces a lot more power for the same magical energy costs.
The engine is also built using crystal, making it easy to repair and much lighter than a metal-constructed engine of the same weight. Micro fractures are a problem, but with easy yet diligent maintenance, the problem won't ever manifest itself. The fact that it's made out of crystal lets it take advantage of our plentiful machine crystal as well.
TL;DR: We apply the concepts we've learned so far in magitech to make a mini fireball-powered internal combustion engine. The engine will be much more smaller and efficient than our steam engines and could be used in just about anything in the future as a replacement for the steam engine.
Post by: RAM on May 30, 2017, 08:56:19 pm
Pulse-jet
A crystal tube with two necks with cages on one side and a tightly-fitting cork loose within the cages. A repeating fireball spell is remotely detonated between the two necks. The fireball pushes the front cork into the neck and [atmospheric medium] out the back. The sudden absence of the firball pulls the rear cork into the nec and pulls [atmospheric medium] into the front. This produces a jet of [atmospheric medium] in one direction in frequent pulses.
This design was a fairly obvious attempt to produce fireball-based propulsion. it started with a one-sided tube, but the fireball would suck the tube backwards after pushing it forwards. Then we tried a mechanical cork system to close it, but the cork kept getting pushed out. At that point we realised that the cork would be pushed closed if we had the correct mechanisms to do so, which was pretty easy with summoned parts.
We can use this for rocket propulsion in any medium and it is dead simple and super plausible...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 30, 2017, 10:23:44 pm
This design is basically a bundle of improvements that could be individually made in revisions. It's just a straight-up upgrade to crystal.
Future Design: Polymer Crystal
Our Crystal is harder, lighter, and sharper than steel. But its brittleness hurts us, and we could make it better.
The core design principle behind this new generation of crystal is influencing the spells we use to create crystal items to tweak the fundamental structure of crystal. By doing this, we can make Crystal out of "polymers", almost as if it was woven together as a fabric. Of course, the resultant product is certainly not a fabric, but it's superior to our current crystal in every way.
Polymer crystal has two main improvements over crystal: It's much more flexible, and is stronger. The flexibility isn't comparable at all to textiles or similar items, but it completely does away with the former brittleness of the crystal and makes it more versatile. The strength is simple - the Crystal withstands greater punishment before sustaining any damage. These two new elements of Crystal make it much better in its uses. It could effortlessly shrug off any known Moskurger projectiles and weapons without any damage whatsoever. It can be used in our steam engines and machinery without suffering the micro fractures that our current crystal endures.
All this and polymer crystal manages to even be notably lighter than the crystal it's replacing! The change isn't particularly huge, but it's most certainly noticeable when crystal is used in anything bigger than an axe.
Polymer Crystal can be used to immediately replace the machine crystal in all our designs, thanks to the Crystalworks. We can simply "upload" this change to the circuits in the Crystalworks, having them all use polymer crystal instead of regular machine crystal.
So, what in terms of vehicles, we can form a pretty reliable roadmap. Of course, it's a good idea to not focus entirely on one thing for such a long time, but disregarding years where we do other things...
Design: Explosive Shells. (We're winning in the artillery game; let's build on this advantage.)
Revision: Bigger(/better) Falcons. (If we don't keep up in the air game, their air units could counter our artillery.)
Design: AS-STV-1 "Relentless" OR Internal Detonation Engine. (The IDE can be used for any vehicle in the future and is a very notable improvement, but the Relentless can improve steam engine tech to a point where we can use it in smaller vehicles)
Revision: Better Magegems? Better Crystal? Improve Crystalclad? Fix last design?
Design: AS-APC-1 "Pursuer" (With either the IDE or improved steam engine from the Relentless, we can use it to make a basic APC for our troops)
Revision: See last revision, or fixing the APC-1.
... (We should probably branch out into other, non vehicle things, for 1-4 years.)
Design: AS-DC-1 ("Devastation Cannon" - Shorter range than HC1-E, but much more destructive, breech loading, and much higher RoF.)
Design: (Primitive?) Tank. (We basically make a more armored APC-1 then stick the AS-DC-1 in it.)
So..
Possible Vehicles: (In order of most to least possible.)
- Train (AS-STV-1 Relentless)
- APC (AS-APC-1 Pursuer)
- Tank (No design yet)
- Submarine (SPB2 "Hunter")
- Walker (AS-HMW1 "Walker" - basically a kind of mech.)
Post by: RAM on May 30, 2017, 10:32:42 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 30, 2017, 10:35:34 pm
It's not really polymers but it's as close as a magical-industrial age society is going to get.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 31, 2017, 12:04:39 am
We set up a quarry that engraves runes into stone blocks before they're shipped to the front lines, making them easier to enchant once they arrive. This ends up decreasing the cost of the towers to merely Expensive. We notice that though we can now set up more towers, the cold effect isn't as pronounced as it'd been last time. We can instill Taiga-temperatures in the jungle year-round now, but the desert is still rather temperate during the day. It will still drop below freezing at night, but it seems we're reaching diminishing returns with our towers. With work, we could maybe drop the temperature even more, but we likely won't be able to do much more than that without Disastrous Repercussions™.
Expensive.
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 31, 2017, 01:50:08 am
This version of the tower of frost is designed to permanently and irrevocably change the weather of Forenia slowly but surely into an unending ice age. It has towers specifically set up in our territory that will alter the weather patterns until every area is a frozen hellscape in which no living thing can survive.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 31, 2017, 01:57:53 am
I kind of wish we could have known that before we used the expense credit.
Evicted, we do get more protection against Moskurg taking down towers though, right?
Post by: evictedSaint on May 31, 2017, 02:02:04 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on May 31, 2017, 02:02:45 am
Disappointing.
I kind of wish we could have known that before we used the expense credit.
Evicted, we do get more protection against Moskurg taking down towers though, right?
What are you talking about? We got confirmation we can probably irreversibly destroy the entire ecosystem of the land. Now operation doom the world and be the last survivors can go forward!
We just need those underground dwellings and crystal bio dome farms and we are all set to destroy the world.
I mean...
Uh...
That was the plan right?
Post by: andrea on May 31, 2017, 02:07:08 am
oh, well. Next time.
Post by: RAM on May 31, 2017, 03:25:13 am
Post by: Andres on May 31, 2017, 08:17:03 am
With work, we could maybe drop the temperature even more, but we likely won't be able to do much more than that without Disastrous Repercussions™.((Is this a hint saying that you won't allow any more research into this area for balance issues?))
Disappointing.How is it disappointing? It gets the Jungle - a place with a temperature grade only step lower than Desert - and made it go down to the lowest temperature possible before we start to die and past the point where they start to die. In the Desert, we entirely removed the temperature penalty on our end (very useful for advancing further into their territory) and Moskurg now gets a penalty during night attacks.
I kind of wish we could have known that before we used the expense credit.
Unless I'm mistaken, we also have the capability to drop the temperature to sub-Taiga in the Taiga, Mountains, and Plains, which gives us a really strong defence in those areas. Moskurg can't advance in temperatures that cold.
It's a good result.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: helmacon on May 31, 2017, 09:24:53 am
(I'm just gonna jump into this game here)
Alright, I think these frost towers have a lot of potential, but revising them to have a broader effect is the wrong way to go about it. For one, I think we would run into the problem of diminishing returns, but it would also be easy for them to counter if it became a problem for them.
Quote
It will still drop below freezing at night, but it seems we're reaching diminishing returns with our towers.
called it
Post by: evictedSaint on May 31, 2017, 03:21:11 pm
If someone else does that for me, I'll make them a character in the next update. >.>
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 31, 2017, 03:31:06 pm
Magic Lance: [1, 3, 6] You already have experience conjuring simple elemental forms and substances, so this provides a basis for your work on conjuring 'magic lances' to assist your men. Following the description of your intended spell, you and your fellow mages spend several months working on how to conjure a solid, strong material able to form the basis for lances to improve your cavalry charge. Eventually you devise a complex, draining spell that summons a lance of shimmering crystal that will last for about an hour before dissipating into the aether. The crystal is strong, hard and has surprising tensile strength, and focuses into a deadly point at its business end. It is on par with a lance made of steel, but substantially lighter.
The only problem is that you currently are unable to summon any lance wider than one quarter of an inch in diameter. In its current form it has little practical use in a mounted charge, as even with its strength it will still snap on impact with such a slender cross-section, although some other use could be conceivable.
It is now the Revision Phase.
Post by: evictedSaint on May 31, 2017, 03:35:35 pm
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 31, 2017, 03:36:25 pm
Ugh. I need compile a list of links to every design, revision, and expense credit that has to do with crystals, along with the die rolls for each.
If someone else does that for me, I'll make them a character in the next update. >.>
IIRC, I may have a list of everything lying around. I'll have to look, it was in an unssaved doc, so it may not have autosaved.
Edit : No luck.
Well, I'll go backward, Chiefwaffles can go forward and keep whatever reward he wants.
I have everything more recent than 2 may.
Spoiler: Tangential (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Crystal (click to show/hide)
Post by: Draignean on May 31, 2017, 03:56:49 pm
SO2-AM Equalizer [4] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7469302#msg7469302) (Antimagic Crystal Shell)
Crystal-Nickel Circuits [5] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7467166#msg7467166) (What it says on the Tin)
Crystal Circuitry [1] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7463453#msg7463453) (Again, name says it all)
Steam-Powered Barrel Boring [2] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7448865#msg7448865) (Barrel Boring using a specialized crystal bit)
Mathemagics [3] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7424856;topicseen#msg7424856) (The precursor revision to anti-magic crystals, and this, really, to mage gems)
Anti Magic Charm [2] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7416175;topicseen#msg7416175) (The dark days of actual gem based magic)
Crystal Permanence [2] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7412848;topicseen#msg7412848) (What it says on the tin, take three)
Crystal Magic Template [6!] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7411051#msg7411051) (Or: How to reliably make suitably pointy things)
Magic Lances: [6] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7404728#msg7404728) (Improved stiffies for crystal lances)
Magic Javelins: [Disadvantage: 1+1] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7395851#msg7395851) (Legitimately unsure. Triple revision wonkiness going on, but shitty crystal throwing spears!)
Designs
AS-SPB2-Crystalclad [3, 5, 3] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7469011#msg7469011) (Crystal Ship)
Crystalworks [6, 5-2, 4] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7465726;topicseen#msg7465726) (The titular crystalworks)
Magegems [5, 5, 5] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7463124;topicseen#msg7463124) (Schmancy energy storing crystals)
Antimagic Bombs [6, 4, 5] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7434658;topicseen#msg7434658) (Crystal antimagic bombs)
Crystal Long Axes [3+1, 4+1, 3] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7411893#msg7411893) (I'm a Crystal Lumberjack [And I'm OK])
Crystal Caltrops: [3-1, 4+1, 6] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7409998#msg7409998) (Ow.)
Arzotskan Academy for Adequate Apprenticeship: [5-1, 4-2, 6-2] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7407660#msg7407660) (Magical academy that explicitly states common training of crystal shaping techniques)
Magic Lance: [1, 3, 6] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7395594#msg7395594) (If your crystal spear persists for more than an hour, our mages did a fantastic job)
Reengaging Lurker Protocol... ((Also, give it to Waffles. I'm just watching with popcorn))
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 31, 2017, 04:00:33 pm
Magic Lances: [6] With just a little work you manage to solve the thickening problem, creating usable, light lances with the tensile strength of steel for your chargers. This will significantly increase your capability in melee. As a side-effect of Jibril Saadiya's experimentation with conjuring different materials you feel confident that you can now conjure, at least temporarily, pure forms of most simple materials in configurable shapes (currently based around cylinders or rods of varying thickness and length).This is a revision of magic lances that also coincidentally gives us some minor crystal abilities.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 31, 2017, 04:07:26 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 31, 2017, 04:17:27 pm
Post by: Draignean on May 31, 2017, 04:20:24 pm
I want to say that he edited in the magic lances revision because I'm almost certain it was not there when I posted. I checked.
I absolutely did. That was a good catch.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 31, 2017, 04:29:37 pm
But if they don't, just some Thane or other guy with a name that's some kind of Arstotzkan-like real-ish version of "Chiefwaffles" doing something cool is fine. And if that's too much work, I'm also completely fine with nothing.
Post by: 10ebbor10 on May 31, 2017, 04:32:28 pm
Post by: RAM on May 31, 2017, 04:55:45 pm
My final proposal is The Juggernaut: By searching our kingdom far and wide, we have found a prodigy in the field of war. Standing 6 ft 8 inches, this juggernaut of a man bears much larger axes and tougher steel armor than normal. He will readily lead the charge to eradicate the foul Moskurgers, giving our people a champion in the process.Well if nobody wants it, then we could give it to this guy...
Or my own gilded guardian gilda...
I mean, we will be designing a new champion eventually, right? May as well get started with their backstory...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 31, 2017, 04:57:23 pm
I'm not a huge fan of gilded guardian gilda. And this is just like a guy who gets a special mention in the report, not another champion or anything remotely similar to that.
Post by: RAM on May 31, 2017, 05:05:25 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on May 31, 2017, 05:06:52 pm
Master of artillery... Chief Waflen!
Improbable shot... Chief Waflen!
Annoyance to Alm-you-tricka... Chief Waflen!
Super duper rapper... Chief Waflen!
Hail Chief Waflen!
Post by: Chiefwaffles on May 31, 2017, 10:02:09 pm
The "Overreach" shell uses our extensive knowledge in the manipulation of circuits, magegems, and fireballs to create a devastating shell.
Inside the Overreach are two AA-size Magegems, connected in series by crystal wiring. These Magegems are purposely overcharged during creation, creating a notably unstable effect. But without introducing any more magical energy, the Magegems will remain stable. Another AAA-size Magegem lies within the shell. A pressure-sensitive circuit in the shell connects the AAA Magegem to the AA series. Once this circuit is tripped by the shell impacting ground or some other object, it'll detonate the shell via allowing the energy from the AAA magegem to be transferred to the AA Magegems, pushing them past critical levels.
Circuits placed on the AA Magegems are made to "tune" the detonating Magegems into a fireball form, making it appear as if the shells explode with the forces of several PSFs. Normally, each AA-size Magegem is enough for roughly one flare (and therefore roughly one PSF), but a lot of the energy used in summoning PSFs and Flares goes to making a stable projectile and giving it heavy momentum. Whereas the Overreach's detonation can forego those spell aspects in favor of a bigger explosion.
The Overreach is built with a crystal "tip", with the rest of the shell being made from metals. The crystal tip gives it mild armor piercing capabilities. The Overreach can pierce armor to a degree noticeably higher than our current standard shells, but not anywhere near the point where we could call it an armor-piercing shell.
The result is an awe-inspiring new weapon. A shell which explodes with the force of multiple fireballs upon impact, giving it a massive and devastating area of effect. Its mild AP capabilities allow it to be more effective against armor, too, piercing a small amount of it before exploding.
Since we're building most of the shell casing from metal, we can take advantage of our plentiful mountain metals to create this design. Our extensive knowledge with designing shells (such as the Equalizer), Circuits (Many designs), and Magegems, should make this design an easy task for us.
TL;DR: An explosive shell that detonates with the force of multiple fireballs using 2x AA Magegems. A basic crystal tip makes it a precursor to proper armor-piercing shells as well as giving it very mild AP capabilities. The explosion force is possible because we're using the energy just for the explosion part of a fireball, not the momentum or stable projectile aspects.
EDIT:
Also of relevance is the revision next round. I'm thinking upgrading Magegems, the steam engine, crystal upgrading, or crystal equipment.
Future Revision: Crystal Equipment
Our plate mail is cool and all, but it's not crystal. This is a problem! One which is easily fixed. With some additions to the Crystalworks, we can shift our plate mail production from metal to crystal and greatly improve our soldiers' survivability with harder and lighter armor.
Our broadswords have some application where our crystal axes don't. Let's make them out of crystal for harder and sharper swords!
Our arrows could probably be better. Let's replace the tips with sharper and harder crystal. Even if they make themselves a ripoff of our platemail but with their """"metal"""", they won't be safe!
Our soldiers have wooden shields. Let's remedy this with light and hard crystal.
Hell, if there's anything else that we can make out of crystal, let's do it.
Upgrading the steam engine is just self explanatory miniaturization. Upgrading magegems is self-explanatory. Upgrading Crystal (Polymer Crystal) was already posted earlier.
But what about the Crystal Spyglass? The problem with it is that it seems like something in between a Design and Revision. Too simple for a design, but too complicated for a revision. But it is potentially really useful, so...
Future Revision: Crystal Spyglass
Our Mathemagicians believe they have found a way that can change the optical properties of crystal. With some certain tweaks to the formulas in a Crystalworks production line, we can create a type of crystal that when properly applied, can actually magnify far-away distances and sites. This has immense application for our artillery, and the crystal has been quickly put in metal "cylinders" for use by far-away artillery spotters. Our artillery can find targets much more quickly, more efficiently, and more safely.
I'm not confident that we could get away with this in a revision, but I personally think if we make it a design, it should have some extra features making it worthy of a design. An enchantment highlighting enemies or living things? Something like that.
Post by: Andres on May 31, 2017, 10:45:20 pm
On a different subject, I believe we should develop a Seeking Fireball at some point. It's a good spell on its own, the seeking aspect falls under either Evocation or Conjuration instead of Divination (so less malus there), and we'll get a bonus due to developing it as a Fireball variant. It'll let us get our own equivalent to Lucky Shot, one which is easier to research for us than a Divination spell and which has greater potential for development than Lucky Shot.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on May 31, 2017, 11:36:47 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 01, 2017, 03:03:07 am
I think that combining our firbals with conjuration to conjure a fireball at a specific location would be better. IFor now it would just be a spell to blow up a point near a carpet or something, but it would have further possibilities...
Why not just do my elemental control fireballs? Basically make the caster stay linked to the fireball as it flies so they can direct it and detonate it on command.
Post by: RAM on June 01, 2017, 03:32:39 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 01, 2017, 03:44:19 am
Because that wouldn't be technology that progresses towards massively remote casting. We still need to summon millions of nukes at a distant location to all go off simultaneously to reduce an entire army to ash. Remote-control spells won't help with that, remote summoned spells will...
We have a wall of fire.
So first we control fireballs to move around and be sustained at a distance.
Then we have walls/waves of life-like fire advance on and burn the enemies.
Post by: RAM on June 01, 2017, 03:58:08 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 01, 2017, 04:50:23 am
Anyway, I just feel that direct elemental control is better then distance summoning, but the point is moot because we are gonna do something with crystal anyway. Always with the crystal.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 03, 2017, 01:29:00 am
Combat for 936
This year sees both sides break out new and powerful weapons. For Moskurg, it's their Wands of Thunderbolts, thin glass rods with cores of their new Adamantium metal. They're only good for a single charge, and it's wildly inaccurate, modestly powerful, and has a tendency to explode, but they're also cheap. Each wizard can afford to have at least one, but they're most effective in the hands of the carpet riders and almost all available wands go up with them. Each carpet bomber can afford to take several with him on his War Pegasi, and when Arstotzka's trained falcons fly up to intercept they discharge the captured lightning. Most of the time the wand arcs straight down and strikes the ground, shatters in their thick, gloved hand, or even rarely arcs off and strikes a nearby friendly mage, but on occasion the bolt will strike true and pass through a falcon or two. A mage can usually fire off one or two blasts before they're intercepted, and if they fail to stop the falcons before then they're often sent tumbling to the ground, but at least now they have some way of defending themselves. Moskurg still aren't uncontested in the skies, but they're far better off now than they were before. The lightningbolts also have a nice bonus of preferring to strike HA1 artillery, occasionally causing them to crack, get too hot to use, or go off prematurely. It's not enough to stifle their artillery advantage, though, because there's simply so many of them and their War Pegasi are still Very Expensive. Additionally, Moskurgs calvary archers now use bodkin arrows tipped with Adamantium, meaning their arrows can now once again penetrate at point-blank range. It's not ideal, but they're once again relevant. Moskurg holds a large skirmish advantage.
Arstotzka, meanwhile, has rolled out a cheaper version of their Tower of Frost, plunging the theatre into yet another level of cold. It snows year-round now, and it's not uncommon to see Moskurg soldiers freezing to death - it doesn't help that their Adamantium armor (as Adamantium is now Cheap) is fixed at a constant chill temperature and provides no protection. Furthermore, their Equalizer Anti-Magic artillery shells are now merely Very Expensive. That's fine, though, as they only need to litter Moskurg positions with a few shells before the effect becomes noticeable. Near-misses require Moskurg to relocate their artillery, as the shells themselves are buried too deep in the ground to be moved. This, combined with the fact that they have the range advantage, means they dominate in artillery combat.
All of Moskurgs weapons and armor is now made of cheap Adamantium, a summoned metal that's comparable to hardened steel and as light as leather of similar volume. It requires special smithing to be usable and can't be repaired in the field, but it's less brittle than Arstotzka's crystal. Thanks to Arstotzka's new Crystalworks from last year, all their crystal weaponry is now cheaper and permanent, though slightly more brittle. It doesn't fade in the area of effect of Moskurgs Anti-Magic any more, and holds a sharper edge than their Adamantium. It's a close matchup between the two materials, but the fact that all of Moskurgs soldiers are now wearing armor made of the divine metal means they have a slight infantry advantage, as the jungle (now once again dying) provides some small cover for advancements.
Ultimately, Arstotzka's ability to shell Moskurg positions from far away and render their ballistas inert has more effect. If Moskrug could field more carpet-bombers it would have been closer, but as it is they're pushed back a section in the jungle.
Arstotzka gains a section of jungle.
The cheaper Towers of Frost means Arstotzka can all but eliminate Moskurgs temperature advantage. It's mild during the day, but at night the already cold desert grows freezing. Moskurg still runs rampant with their skirmishing advantage, but Arstotzka can hit from further away, and harder. Unfortunately, they're in Moskurg home territory now, and the waters around the desert are flooded with Moskurg ships hugging the coastline just daring them to come in range. Troops are regularly landed behind Arstotzkan lines in the dead of night, launching surprise ambushes supported by carpet-bombers. Moskurg manages to harass and raid them until they're ragged, and HA1 artillery firing missions are hampered by the lack of water. When it rains, it's a mixed blessing - the rain gives them the much needed water to fire their artillery, but with it comes summoned lightning bolts which strike left and right among their lines. The open terrain lends itself to Moskurg calvary archers, now once again relevant, and after much fussing and fighting Arstotzka is forced back to the mountain line - although just barely.
Moskurg control of the desert.
In the plains, Arstotzka pushes further south. Plentiful water, open fields of fire, static trenches, and the lack of Moskurgs naval advantage means their artillery is king here. Moskurg can skirmish them to death at night, but during the day the bombardments just don't stop. Taiga-levels of cold freeze men to death and prevent thunderstorms from being conjured to strike at the enemy, and Moskurg must pull back a section.
Arstotzka has secured a section of the plains.
The oceans see a new weapon steaming out to compete with Moskurgs Sirocco. An entirely crystal ship, replete with three HC1-E's, two steam engines, and a plentiful fleet. Their new "Crystalclad" ship is merely Expensive, cheaper than wooden ships and just as fast as the Fog-O-War. Firestorm shells have little effect on the hard crystal, and with three cannons aboard they can out-shoot Moskurgs out-dated ballista. The Adamantium hull is resistant to HC1-E's shells, but a sustained barrage by the more plentiful ship will crack the wooden hull underneath and send the ships to the bottom of the ocean. Moskurg sailors are forced to flee when confronted with the enemy Crystalclads, and send up their War Pegasi with their new Wands of Thunderbolt to deal with the crystalline ships. The Wand of Thunderbolts proves to be effective here, happily striking the exposed steam engines and often causing critical explosions that shatter the crystal hulls. The on-board apprentices can rarely patch the cracks in time, and more often than not the ship goes down. Carpet riders can't fight for long, though, as they're required to land and replenish their enchantments or fall into the sea. This, combined with their lack of numbers and the overwhelming number of Arstotzkan ships means Moskurg must pull back a section of coastline in both the East and Western Seas.
Arstotzka gains ground in the Eastern and Western Seas.
Research Credit!!!
The leader of your country demands a new emblem to represent the country, in face of the new era of combat the continent has entered. The old, plain, solid-colored blue/red emblem is no longer fit for a country with such a glorious command of magic, and he asks that you design a new emblem to reflect the supreme nature of the side. Whichever side produces the more noble emblem will inspire their researchers, gaining a Research Credit. A Research Credit allows two dice to be rolled each the Effectiveness, Cost, and Bug aspects of a design, with the higher die roll chosen for the trait.
It is 937, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 937 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Behavior Rules. Please Read.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: RAM on June 03, 2017, 02:03:01 am
Not safe for will. (http://imgur.com/a/ZaldJ)
Ritual of Flame
Spontneously generates a large fireball at a great distance.
We combine circutry, mage gems, fireball, and cunjuration into a single spell. A large circuit set into a crystal case for protection is carried to the location of the spell, or placed aboard a ship.
The circuit binds the ritual, allowing all the participants to contribute and coordinate simultaneously and holds the magic steady to consolidate it until it is finished.
A more experienced wizard forms the spell's overall structure(predominately conjuration), with a newly developed mathemagical 'null' value sustaining the absence of the conjuration's coordinates.
Several apprentices collaborate to provide substance to the spell(Mostely fireball, lots and lots of fireball), filling in the details.
A collection of magegems sustain the spell while the wizards take brief breaks and provide an additional burst of power on the spell's completion.
To complete the spell, the leading wizard inserts mathemagical coordinates of bearing and altitude provided by a trained offsider and the spell is completed.
The precise effect of this spell is to summon another spell, specifically a fireball, a very large one, at precise coordinates...
Forces their carpets to spread out and can cause an enemy ship to spontaneously explode from within as though it were filled with gunpoweder and someone lit a match...
Institute of Mathemagical Analysis
We take all our spells and extract them down to their basest elements, allowing us to freely mix-and-match their component parts as a revision. Brainfreeze? Replace control from Hawk Tame with Cold from Forever Frost. Bird Blight Tower? Replace Cold from Forever Frost tower with Bird Taming from Hawks...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 03, 2017, 02:05:40 am
I'm not so certain about explosive shells now. Our artillery is already amazing but it looks like if we don't act soon Moskurg will circumvent it through air or advantage at land. They already have an advantage in skirmishes and even in melee now. Explosive shells would help our artillery but does it really need help in that area?
Our artillery is already damaging enough. We just need to keep our artillery able to continue hitting them hard. If they overwhelm us in any other area like they're threatening to do so right now, we lose our artillery advantage.
We could design a new ship. If we focus our designs on the sea then we can gain serious advantages at land where we control the sea. Housing our engines and weaponry inside the ship like was originally planned for the Crystalclad would be a good start. Our ships are obviously overall strong, but they have obvious weak points that Moskurg can exploit.
Their air game is starting to get dangerously powerful. I'm not sure if just a revised falcon would be enough.
Design: Hunter Falcon
We can make our Falcons better. Faster. Stronger. We have the
Through a careful process, we can replace their bones with a comparable crystal structure. The crystal isn't quite the same as regular crystal, as it needs to be light enough to allow the falcons to fly, but it's still exponentially stronger than just regular bone. The Falcons' talons are also replaced with crystal. These crystal talons are again extremely sharper and more lethal than their old talons.
Finally, we revise the spell used to modify the Falcons' minds to also increase their size by a decent amount - to roughly 150% of their original size. This increase of size keeps them at the same speed but generally makes them stronger and more "durable".
The result is a fiercesome air interceptor that can take much more punishment before and deal out much more damage than before. This falcon doesn't just harass carpet riders, it eliminates them. Its talons can easily call a man through armor, and if that isn't enough, it can just use its greater weight to simply push them off their ride.
...But I am very tired of just countering Moskurger things. We need our own gamechanger. We can do it now. If we revise our falcons to be more competent we can likely prevent a total loss at air, and use our design to make something new. Like a vehicle or some other kind of awesome invention.
So.
Future Design: Internal Detonation Engine
The Internal Detonation Engine, or IDE, is an innovative type of engine designed to completely phase out the large, clunky, and inefficient steam engine we've been using.
The IDE takes full advantage of our circuits. Our steam engines had to be large, clunky, and designed specifically for a mage to be able to cast the correct spells in the correct places. They were inefficient machines to convert magical power into mechanical power. But with circuits, we can greatly miniaturize this process.
To sum up the process, we have four small "combustion chambers" wired with our circuits. The circuits in these chambers summon greatly reduced fireball like explosions. They're nowhere near the caliber of even a Streamlined Fireball, but they're big enough to power the rest of the engine. The explosions summoned by the circuits in the chambers will essentially push out a series of pistons that in turn rotate a crankshaft. The mechanical power from this crankshaft can be used for a number of applications such as moving our boats, creating land vehicles, and more.
The IDE can be connected to an external power source via crystal conduit, or can be powered by an 2x AA-size Magegem battery. The "mini fireball" spell used by the IDE's circuits is designed to be energy efficient and even disregarding increased efficiency, already uses extreme amounts of power less than even a flare due to its greatly reduced size. Therefore, the integrated battery can power the IDE for roughly 12 hours of continued operation before charging. The battery can be recharged via the crystal conduit or by a mage if the engine is disconnected from a power source.
The IDE is significantly smaller than our steam engines and produces a lot more power for the same magical energy costs.
The engine is also built using mountain-sourced metal, making it cheaper to make. While one may say that metal is heavier than crystal, it isn't heavier by a significant degree and considering the planned size of the IDE, the material weight shouldn't be anywhere near half a problem as the weight of the materials used in a steam engine.
TL;DR: We apply the concepts we've learned so far in magitech to make a mini fireball-powered internal combustion engine. The engine will be much more smaller and efficient than our steam engines and could be used in just about anything in the future as a replacement for the steam engine.
Why? The IDE may be another groundwork tech, but it's one with extreme potential. We can use it to make powerful land vehicles. Tanks. APCs. Trains. Sure, we could use a steam engine, but this would be better. Faster, more versatile, much smaller and lighter, and just better.
(Copy+pasted from an earlier post. Except it's metal again, because crystal just isn't strong enough to withstand being part of this thing. Should still be way lighter and better than our steam engines, though.)
OR
Future Design: AS-STV-1 "Relentless"
(Steam Transport Vehicle 1)
REVISED/CURRENT VERSION HERE (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473872#msg7473872)
We set out to make a land vehicle. Powered by a steam engine.
But this proved to be a difficult design task. So in order to facilitate speed and cargo capacity using our steam engines, we've settled on a kind of compromise - tracks. They're built specifically for the Relentless, but provide guidance for it and allow it to move without difficulty. Our mathemagicians are calling this type of a vehicle a "train".
The tracks required can be built out of cheap crystal or cheap metal - whatever our soldiers/workers have the most of on site at the moment. Though generally we recommend metal, as crystal-built tracks do require maintenance a bit more often than those made of metal. Tracks can be built initially from Arstotzka to the theatres by construction crews, then our combat engineers can build up our rail network as we advance in a theatre, allowing the Relentless to always be available at the front lines.
To facilitate a large cargo capacity on these tracks, we've devised a system of cars. The first car is the engine car and houses the steam engine(s) required to move the whole train. The driver of the train resides here, and powers the engine(s) as well as controls the acceleration, stops, and other aspects. A limited magegem battery is present in the car, but this is merely to allow the train to operate for minutes at a time while the operator's attention is elsewhere.
The other cars are specially made for holding cargo, passengers, weapons, and more. These can be easily hooked on or off the engine car as needed, and can be chained allowing for large numbers of cars all moved by a single engine car.
Additionally, the Relentless shall possess a limited HA1 armament to provide occasional fire support and for self defense. This armament isn't the main focus of the Relentless, but it should provide significant benefits. The vehicle would be capable of protecting itself to a significant degree, and the mobility provided to the onboard HA1s would give them an extreme advantage. The train can easily move from place to place with its HA1s instead of the slow and arduous process to set up just one HA1.
As a significant aspect of the design, our Mathemagicians aim to noticeably decrease the size of the steam engine for best performance. This is a very high priority design goal compared to any other individual element.
The Relentless promises to be a gamechanger. Troops from both Moskurg and Arstotzka are forced to bring their troops and supplies in via long, arduous, and expensive means in limited quantities at a time. But the Relentless completely changes it. It's fast speed allows it to carry massive amounts of cargo and passengers at a time to anywhere in the front lines and back. Our troops can easily move through the battlefield. Retreating becomes easier. Reinforcement comes easier. Supply lines become extremely easier. The Relentless can bring in massive amounts of shells, water, and other supplies for our artillery to allow them to fire nonstop. Rations and supplies for our troops can be brought with ease, meaning they never run short. The issue of cargo and passenger becomes a nonissue. And as a bonus, the HA1 armament means we have what's essentially a mobile artillery emplacement that can shell the enemy from multiple places and move around far quicker than our HA1s and HC1-Es.
TL;DR: A train. It carries massive amounts of cargo and people, as well a couple HA1s to serve as mobile artillery. This doesn't have any benefit in any direct avenues, but it should be a massive overall buff to our performance in every land theatre. It should also rectify the problems our artillery has with water and whatnot. And more! Also, it's really cool for culture.
Right now I'm voting for the Relentless, but my mind isn't set in stone yet. If someone still really wants explosive shells but doesn't want to write it, feel free to vote for the design I posted just a bit before this combat phase.
Quote
DESIGNS@RAM: The Ritual of Flame seems very easily countered by their anti-magic.
1 - AS-STV-1 "Relentless": Chiefwaffles
0 - Internal Detonation Engine:
0 - Hunter Falcon:
0 - Ritual of Flame:
0 - Institute of Mathemagical Analysis:
Also, I have some questions.
Do our Equalizer shells have any effect on their summoned metal?
How effective are their ballistae against the Crystalclad's hull?
And the Falcon isn't listed in our designs.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 03, 2017, 02:15:13 am
We have, somehow, maybe all the lighting strikes hitting all our metal stuff, found that lighting seems to target metal objects, particularly large metal objects. So we made tall, thin metal towers that can take the lighting instead of our men and cannons.
(lighting rods)
Post by: Kadzar on June 03, 2017, 02:21:36 am
Quote
DESIGNS
1 - AS-STV-1 "Relentless": Chiefwaffles
0 - Internal Detonation Engine:
1 - Hunter Falcon: Kadzar
0 - Ritual of Flame:
0 - Institute of Mathemagical Analysis:
Post by: RAM on June 03, 2017, 02:44:04 am
Pulse-jet
An engine that prduces jets of air or water in pulses.
Tube... two necks... extremely simple pressure valves... repeating force-ball inside the tube... explained it a few times before. plugs make it one-way flow and the repeated ball spells(focusing on the spreading effect that allows the fireball to cover an area more than the flames that do damage, but expansion from fire would work just fine so it is not a priority.) provide energy to the one-way jet of air or water or whatever.
Dirt-cheap, runs on pure magic and the surrounding material, air-flow keeps the temperatures low and ideally it would be aummoned rather than worked so it could be taken off and replaces as soon as it wears out... Dependung upon how rapidly the balls go off it should be capable of terrific speed... Just slap a few on your crystalclads and fly off, or sit on one, or make torpedoes out of them, or make motorcycles...
Post by: andrea on June 03, 2017, 03:09:00 am
Es gave them 2 clear hints of where to improve: carpets and lightning rods. They will probably work on those.
Better falcons would help against carpets, but if they perfect lightning, falcons are dead all the same.
A better counter may be some way of remeote or automatical casting. Maybe having falcons carry fireball loaded magegems instead of just antimagic crystals. Of course, that would require cheaper magegems... *grumbles about not spending the credit on them*.
Still, if we dedicate this turn to it, we could both have more powerful/cheaper magegems and use them to empower falcons.
Or, we improve magegems all the same, but instead we try to design rifles. A steam rifle can easily be loaded with either bullets or antimagic shards and might help against carpets while also boosting our infantry. To power it, a much weaker fireball is needed, meaning it is within the bounds of a magegem revision. Ideally they would also have the aethergems waffles proposed, but until we make them they can carry magegems like soldiers of old carried gunpowder.
Think about it: we have al the components. Barrels,rifling, steam, cold spells to avoid the soldiers' backs from melting, magegems to power the thing. We even used most of them in almost the same way in our cannons. Its metal components can be cheapened by mountains or can be cheapened by using crystal whenever available. Only problem is our magegems are currently not that powerful but that is what revisions are for. Either more powerful or cheaper magegems would be the final step in the rifle project.
Longshot rod
What if all our soldiers had a cannon? This ambitious project uses all our existing cannon technologies to make a man portable version. The boiler is backpack sized; the soldier is insulated from the heat with a layer of animal hide engraves with the cold spells we already use on engines and cannon, tuned to reduce conducted heat to a bearable amount. Power is provided by a magegem, which is suitable thanks to the much reduced power needs for this smaller scale. Magegem sockets are on the side, easily accessible by soldiers without removing the contraption. This boiler then sends steam to a small rifled barrel, where it propels a small projectile at high speed. This barrel includes grips for the soldier to grab and aim it, where a command to fire is also located.
This new long range weapon allows our soldiers to be useful even in the age of artillery. They can shoot enemies at great power and distance, including their flying carpets. If time is left, a reduced version of the equalizer shell could be produced, to interfere with their magical equipment ( read: carpets)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 03, 2017, 03:42:31 am
So what if we used our artillery to stop that?
Design: AS-HAC-1
The AS-HAC-1, or the Hybrid Auto-Cannon, is a revolutionary new cannon designed.
The cannon itself has a much different design. Instead of a crew moving and firing a large cannon, it's mounted onto a portable "stand". A small set of levers and gears allow one person to very easily aim the cannon with 360 degrees of horizontal motion and almost 90 degrees of vertical motion facing upwards (as in, almost facing straight up). Meaning one person can easily aim the cannon within seconds, versus the crew, time, and effort needed to aim our larger cannons.
We've even included a "crosshair" in the design that one can focus their sight through, allowing them to quickly and easily check where the cannon is aiming.
The cannon fires a much smaller caliber of shell, and other parts are decreased in size. Combined together, these factors mean the cannon can propel a smaller shell to great distances (roughly the same of at least a HC1-E if not the HA1) at speeds higher than any of our previous cannons. The shells are easy to transport, carry and load.
Perhaps most importantly is the new method of loading. Previously, our soldiers had to load cannons through the ends of barrels by hand. Now, with the HAC-1, our Mathemagicians have implemented a new way of loading - breech loading. The HAC-1 includes a minor mechanism to securely open the back of the barrel, allowing for a new shell to be quickly inserted from the position the crew's already at instead of having to lower the barrel, move to it, and spend large amounts of time loading in a new shell. The new method is simply opening the chamber, pushing in a new shell for a few seconds then closing it. In order to allow the cannon to safely fire rapidly without overheating like the HA1, we've implemented very basic and minor cooling frost-based circuits in the barrel.
The rate of fire has been massively increased by this innovation.
The HAC-1 can be charged in three ways - by a nearby wizard, crystal conduit, or a Magegem. One AA Magegem is enough power for one shot. This means that with an adequate supply of Magegems or a connection to another power source, mundane soldiers can fire the HAC-1.
One person can completely operate a HAC-1, and an apprentice can easily and quickly charge a HAC-1 and multitask while doing it.
The entire thing is made out of mountain-sourced metal and is aimed to be roughly half as heavy as a HC1-E. If possible, we also aim to fit each Crystalclad with one HAC-1 for close-range combat, anti-sail, and anti-air. The HAC-1 is perfect for anti-air. It's great for using on the offense due to its portability, and amazing for anti-personnel in any situation as it can nearly mow down enemy troops thanks to its high rate of fire!
TL;DR: A breech-loading small "swivel" cannon that can be easily operated by one person and is extremely easy to aim and reload. Think the AA cannon (https://i.redditmedia.com/dheAEavYEIxe3oaXUjH0Tp8ScAX3DP3ySYQpP-ZNyQ0.jpg?w=1024&s=183a87d0af5f3eb0ff1936c4d63e21cf) from Battlefield 1, except breech-loaded instead of self-loading. Meant to be used for anti-air, anti-personnel, and general cannon things.
I've isolated each aspect to be easier on Evicted and others. Many of them are very minor aspects, but still matter in the final design.
Swivel Mount
The actual cannon is small, but is mounted on a separate and portable stand. A simple set of gears allow the operator to quickly aim the cannon on the stand in nearly any direction, up and down.
Breech-Loading
The cannon is breech-loaded, extremely increasing its rate of fire. In order to prevent an overheating problem, some basic+simple cooling frost-based circuits line the barrel.
Aiming
In addition to the swivel mount and gears to quickly aim the cannon, it also has a crosshair for quick target acquisition. With every factor combined, the HAC-1 should be extremely easy and quick to aim then fire.
Caliber
The shells are much smaller than our current shells, and can be very easily transported and loaded. They also have a greater velocity (and thus greater armor-piercing capabilities?). But a large amount of the power "gained" from downgrading the shells is "spent" in making the cannon smaller.
Size
The cannon is very small and very portable compared to a HC1-E. Roughly the size of a minigun or the picture I linked in the TL;DR. Too big to be carried by hand. It's hopefully half-as-heavy as a HC1-E. The cannon is made using metal and uses the mountain bonus.
Operation/Charging
Using 1 AA-Magegem (optional if it increases overall expense) gives enough charge to fire one shell. The cannon can also be connected to an external power supply. So with another power supply or adequate magegems, mundane soldiers can easily use this. Apprentices can also easily charge it and even multi-task while doing so.
One person can completely operate the cannon - aiming, firing, loading, etc. - as long as the magical element is taken care of somehow.
Distribution
In addition to being distributed in the regular places, hopefully each Crystalclad can be fitted with a HAC-1.
Uses
The cannon should be very effective at taking down Moskurger air units in addition with the flare, as it has a much higher RoF, and smaller caliber means less drop/higher velocity. It can also be great for anti-personnel thanks to its ease of aiming, as troops on a fortification can use this almost like a MG emplacement against incoming soldiers. Other than that, it's still a cannon and can be used as one, just maybe not as great at siege-like stuff. It can also be used on the offense thanks to its large degree of portability.
Yeah, sure, name's a bit misleading, but I'm gearing it for version 2 which is an actual auto cannon. It also serves as a precursor to the longshot rod, as it's much smaller, Magegem-compatible, breech-loaded, has a smaller caliber, and more. I'd be willing to vote for this one if others are too.
Post by: RAM on June 03, 2017, 04:15:57 am
A renvisioning of the draft proposal of the Longshot Rod. This version replaces the large boiler with a "summon steam" spell derived from summon fog and firewall. The shell is placed into the rod, and then a counter-weighed lever is pushed forwards into a slot and sealed with a pin. At its fowards position the lever completes a circuit to summon steam in a fist-sized cauldron. The steam presses against a metal tab that completes a tiny light circuit based upon the flare spell when the pressure reaches an appropriate level. The rod is then pressed againt the soldier's shoulder with am insulated block and aimed, whereupon the soldier pulls the pin, the lever falls back, ending the summoning of more steam, opening the seal on the cauldron releasing the steam, triggering a fireball circuit on the way down, and then resting in a position at which all circuits are incomplete.
It takes much longer to fire, but should take less energy to fire and require less equipment...
Of course, what we should really do is invest in ball-bearings. If our falcons drop ball-bearings on their carpets, then their lightning will be messed up. Ball bearings in our artillery would, well, who knows what a punt gun is? They are pretty much supposed to be anti-air weapons, sort-of, I mean, mostly used against flocks of bird as they take-off but the theory is sound...
Also, their wind is pretty good at blowing things around, not so good at smashing or pushing things. We couldn't really use balloons for anything safe, but we could probably use them for lightning rods...
Shinesteel Armour
We place an ingot of refined steel into the crystal summoning chamber of the crystalworks and force it to summon the crystal in the steel's location. This results in a crystal filled with steel. The result combines the crystal's rigidity and strength with the steel's solidity and force distribution. It loses the crystal's low weight but produces something much stronger and with a heat and electrical conductivity somewhere in the middle. We combine this with some refinements of our aging armour design to produce a suit of armour that can withstand most anything an ambush could throw at it.
If this gets passed then we might have a material strong enough to make a combustion engine. Combustion engine is currently beyond ridiculous ith our current materials and fabrication ability. Honestly, the crystalworks is horrible, the combustion engine requires the mathematical perfection that crystal summoning could provide, but the crystalworks is a process, it doesn't just 'poof'things into being perfectly according to specifications, it has a whole long process riddled with opportunities for somethign to stuff up... But a super-material might just be enough to brute-force it... Or we could get pulse-jets for propulsion and relegate steam to the cannons, which the combustion engine doesn;t seem suited to. Or we could just summon impossibly strong and fast beast-of-burden to pull a vehicle.
Quote
DESIGNS
0 Ritual of Flame (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473465#msg7473465):
0 Institute of Mathemagical Analysis (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473465#msg7473465):
1 Hunter Falcon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473469#msg7473469): Kadzar
0 Internal Detonation Engine (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473469#msg7473469):
1 AS-STV-1 "Relentless" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473469#msg7473469): Chiefwaffles
0 Lighting Control Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473472#msg7473472):
0 Pulse-jet (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473483#msg7473483):
0 Longshot rod (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473496#msg7473496):
0 AS-HAC-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473515#msg7473515):
0 Longshot rodd (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473534#msg7473534):
0 Shinesteel Armour (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473534#msg7473534):
Post by: andrea on June 03, 2017, 04:22:07 am
Post by: RAM on June 03, 2017, 04:41:24 am
Post by: andrea on June 03, 2017, 05:04:31 am
Post by: Andres on June 03, 2017, 05:42:54 am
Post by: Gwolfski on June 03, 2017, 06:32:38 am
Post by: Andres on June 03, 2017, 09:06:45 am
Future Design: AS-STV-1 "Relentless"I have several problems with this design. First of all is its nickname. It is my belief that it should not have one, but if it must have one, it should instead be "Restless" in large of the fact that it does not need to rest like a horse. Relentless should be saved for something else.
(Steam Transport Vehicle 1)
The tracks required can be built out of cheap crystal or cheap metal - whatever our soldiers/workers have the most of on site at the moment. Though generally we recommend metal, as crystal-built tracks do require maintenance a bit more often than those made of metal. Tracks can be built initially from Arstotzka to the theatres by construction crews, then our combat engineers can build up our rail network as we advance in a theatre, allowing the Relentless to always be available at the front lines.Don't make track material optional. Make it standardised and make it metal. We cannot afford to have our apprentices doing something like track maintenance. They are needed elsewhere.
TL;DR: A train. It carries massive amounts of cargo and people, as well a couple HA1s to serve as mobile artillery. This doesn't have any benefit in any direct avenues, but it should be a massive overall buff to our performance in every land theatre. It should also rectify the problems our artillery has with water and whatnot. And more! Also, it's really cool for culture.It must be stated that the train itself should be primarily made out of crystal. It's stronger than steel which means it'll have protection from aerial bombardment and lighter so it'll move faster. Together, it also allows it to carry heavier loads more reliably. Unlike tracks, using apprentices to do maintenance on the trains themselves is acceptable. Making it out of crystal will also allow minor repairs in battle to be done more easily than if it were made out of metal.
For our Revision, I'm thinking we should give crystal a minor regenerative ability, something that allows it to fix microfractures, chips, and small cracks on its own. It can't do anything about larger cracks on its own, but it does make it easier for apprentices to repair them.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 03, 2017, 09:23:41 am
Andrea, perhaps. It'd still be useful against air. Our archers were useful with their slower carpets. So using easy-aiming cannons with better ranges, velocity, and damage should be no different against their better carpets.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 03, 2017, 11:39:00 am
Post by: andrea on June 03, 2017, 12:56:55 pm
The idea is good, care to write a design?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 03, 2017, 02:13:32 pm
(Steam Transport Vehicle 1)
We set out to make a land vehicle. Powered by a steam engine.
But this proved to be a difficult design task. So in order to facilitate speed and cargo capacity using our steam engines, we've settled on a kind of compromise - tracks. They're built specifically for the Restless, but provide guidance for it and allow it to move without difficulty. Our mathemagicians are calling this type of a vehicle a "train".
The tracks required are constructed utilizing mountain-sourced metal, making them cheap and easy to build. Their design is very simple and they use small amounts of material. This means large sections of track can be easily built at a time with untrained workers, soldiers, or combat engineers. Extending the range of the Restless isn't a problem.
To facilitate a large cargo capacity on these tracks, we've devised a system of cars. The first car is the engine car and houses the steam engine(s) required to move the whole train. The driver of the train resides here, and powers the engine(s) as well as controls the acceleration, stops, and other aspects. A limited Magegem battery is present in the car, but this is merely to allow the train to operate for minutes at a time while the operator's attention is elsewhere.
The other cars are specially made for holding cargo, passengers, weapons, and more. These can be easily hooked on or off the engine car as needed, and can be chained allowing for large numbers of cars all moved by a single engine car.
Additionally, the Restless shall possess a limited HA1 armament to provide occasional fire support and for self defense. This armament isn't the main focus of the Restless, but it should provide significant benefits. The vehicle would be capable of protecting itself to a significant degree, and the mobility provided to the onboard HA1s would give them an extreme advantage. The train can easily move from place to place with its HA1s instead of the slow and arduous process to set up just one HA1.
The Restless is made utilizing machine crystal. The crystal makes it very tough against bombardment. It also makes it much lighter than one made out of metal due to the large volume of materials used, and thus makes it faster than an equivalent metal train. The tough crystal additionally allows for heavier load capacities before the integrity is compromised.
As a significant aspect of the design, our Mathemagicians aim to noticeably decrease the size of the steam engine for best performance. This is a very high priority design goal compared to any other individual element.
The Restless promises to be a gamechanger. Troops from both Moskurg and Arstotzka are forced to bring their troops and supplies in via long, arduous, and expensive means in limited quantities at a time. But the Restless completely changes it. It's fast speed allows it to carry massive amounts of cargo and passengers at a time to anywhere in the front lines and back. Our troops can easily move through the battlefield. Retreating becomes easier. Reinforcement comes easier. Supply lines become extremely easier. The Restless can bring in massive amounts of shells, water, and other supplies for our artillery to allow them to fire nonstop. Rations and supplies for our troops can be brought with ease, meaning they never run short. The issue of cargo and passenger becomes a nonissue. And as a bonus, the HA1 armament means we have what's essentially a mobile artillery emplacement that can shell the enemy from multiple places and move around far quicker than our HA1s and HC1-Es.
EDIT: I'd like to emphasize its ability to carry in water+shells for our HA1s and other weapons. This is a very big/obvious problem with the HA1 that was quite explicit in its original design result and in pretty much every combat phase we've used it in. Fixing this problem should be a huge improvement to the HA1 in addition to the train's other very substantial benefits.
TL;DR: A train. It carries massive amounts of cargo and people, as well a couple HA1s to serve as mobile artillery. This doesn't have any benefit in any direct avenues, but it should be a massive overall buff to our performance in every land theatre. It should also rectify the problems our artillery has with water and whatnot. And more! Also, it's really cool for culture. Built entirely out of crystal and uses metal tracks.
Quote
DESIGNSMade the changes Andres suggested. I'd prefer either this or the HAC-1 in terms of this turn's design.
1 Hunter Falcon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473469#msg7473469): Kadzar
1 AS-STV-1 "Restless" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473469#msg7473469): Chiefwaffles
0 Ritual of Flame (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473465#msg7473465):
0 Institute of Mathemagical Analysis (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473465#msg7473465):
0 Internal Detonation Engine (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473469#msg7473469):
0 Lighting Control Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473472#msg7473472):
0 Pulse-jet (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473483#msg7473483):
0 Longshot rod (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473496#msg7473496):
0 AS-HAC-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473515#msg7473515):
0 Longshot rodd (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473534#msg7473534):
0 Shinesteel Armour (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473534#msg7473534):
Regarding magic/steam rifles, personally I think either works. Steam rifles are probably more energy-efficient, easier to anti-magic-resist, and are much cooler, but magic rifles are more versatile (different spells) and probably simpler to make.
Post by: Kadzar on June 03, 2017, 02:16:25 pm
Quote
DESIGNS
0 Ritual of Flame (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473465#msg7473465):
0 Institute of Mathemagical Analysis (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473465#msg7473465):
0 Hunter Falcon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473469#msg7473469):
0 Internal Detonation Engine (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473469#msg7473469):
1 AS-STV-1 "Relentless" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473469#msg7473469): Chiefwaffles
0 Lighting Control Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473472#msg7473472):
0 Pulse-jet (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473483#msg7473483):
0 Longshot rod (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473496#msg7473496):
1 AS-HAC-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473515#msg7473515): Kadzar
0 Longshot rodd (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473534#msg7473534):
0 Shinesteel Armour (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473534#msg7473534):
Post by: Andres on June 03, 2017, 05:38:16 pm
Quote
DESIGNS
0 Ritual of Flame (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473465#msg7473465):
0 Institute of Mathemagical Analysis (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473465#msg7473465):
0 Hunter Falcon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473469#msg7473469):
0 Internal Detonation Engine (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473469#msg7473469):
2 AS-STV-1 "Relentless" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473469#msg7473469): Chiefwaffles, Andres
0 Lighting Control Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473472#msg7473472):
0 Pulse-jet (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473483#msg7473483):
0 Longshot rod (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473496#msg7473496):
1 AS-HAC-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473515#msg7473515): Kadzar
0 Longshot rodd (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473534#msg7473534):
0 Shinesteel Armour (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473534#msg7473534):
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 03, 2017, 10:52:50 pm
A rod of metal about a meter in length with four points at the tip and a slot to place a mage gem inside. The inside of the rod has nickle circuits which draw power from an inserted mage gem and produce a powerful bolt of fire which is ejected from the pointed end. The bolt which flies out is equivalent to a lesser fire ball but more efficient in design allowing both faster speed and further range. It uses a specialized mage gem with about twice the power of the type A gem (or is two type A gems glued together).
The rod is held by a user and pointed at a target while holding the mage gem in the other hand over the triggering slot. When ready to fire the gem is inserted, causing it to cast the fire bolt almost instantly. The mage gems are totally drained to produce the effect so each soldier using the rod should carry multiple mage gems.
They are intended for our sniper squads as a priority, and then others as needed. It does not require the user to be a mage, but a mage could use it by constantly powering an inserted mage gem.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 03, 2017, 11:47:21 pm
I hope you don't mind, but I've written a more detailed version.
Design: AS-M1 "Flame Rod"
The AS-M1 "Flame Rod" is a groundbreaking new weapon using circuits to power a handheld projectile weapon far more powerful and easier-to-use than any bow we've ever had.
The design is reminiscient of a handheld HA1. In a way. It has a small "barrel", a crosshair construction used to guide one's aim, a slot for a magegem on the bottom, and a curved handle near the back. Additionally, there's also a part reaching past the handle that goes
Inside the barrel is a swath of circuitry. Specifically, circuitry to summon a "fire bolt" - a variant of our Streamlined Fireball design. The fire bolt uses roughly the same amount of energy as a Streamlined Fireball, but sacrifices some minor destructive power for increased speed and thus increased range. The Fire Bolt is still very destructive and has a minor AoE effect, but isn't quite as effective as a Streamlined Fireball in terms of raw power. Yet its increased speed and range make long-range shots much easier and make the M1 have a higher range than any of our fireballs.
The Magegem is inserted into a slot ibbyn the bottom and secured using a small "mechanism" keeping it in place unless purposely pulled out. The inserted Magegem sticks out and is quite a prominent feature of the M1. It's connected by crystal conduits to the circuits in the barrel. One AA gem is enough for one shot, and anyone using a M1 can keep a number of AA Magegems on their person and swap them out as needed then recharge them when near a wizard. Alternatively, a wizard using the M1 can channel energy into the Magegem allowing for continuous fire without ever removing the Magegem clip.
The stubby barrel doesn't take up most of the design. It looks like it has a long barrel, but that's merely for ergonomics. The actual barrel is quite small and is simply used to summon the firebolt in - a long barrel for guiding and power isn't needed as the Fire Bolt is created with precision and speed initially. Circuits summon the firebolt and propel it forward, depleting the inserted Magegem. This process is done by a person applying pressure to an AAA Magegem "trigger" in the handle, pushing it into a circuit and completing it, firing the M1 without requiring any charge in the AAA Magegem Trigger.
The result is a devastating precise weapon usable by mundane troops and wizards alike. The target expense is just Expensive, and it should be used as a sniper weapon to eliminate aerial units as well as key personnel. The user aims the weapon while holding it by lining up the crosshairs (indicating where the Fire Bolt will go) with a target, and applying pressure to the trigger. The destructive effect of the firebolt mean the M1 still has a notable amount of use against fortifications and similar things. It should be issued primarily to long-range engagers as the weapon is still vulnerable to anti-magic.
TL;DR: A sniper rifle firing Fire Bolts, a faster+higher-ranged version of the fireball with a reduced-but-still-present AoE effect. It's accurate and can be used by mundane soldiers and wizards alike, making it highly versatile.
Personally, I still prefer the HAC-1 or AS-STV-1.
If we ever make the Crystal Spyglass, we can attach it to this thing for a scope too.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 03, 2017, 11:54:13 pm
Quote
DESIGNS
0 Ritual of Flame (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473465#msg7473465):
0 Institute of Mathemagical Analysis (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473465#msg7473465):
0 Hunter Falcon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473469#msg7473469):
0 Internal Detonation Engine (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473469#msg7473469):
2 AS-STV-1 "Relentless" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473469#msg7473469): Chiefwaffles, Andres
0 Lighting Control Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473472#msg7473472):
0 Pulse-jet (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473483#msg7473483):
0 Longshot rod (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473496#msg7473496):
1 AS-HAC-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473515#msg7473515): Kadzar
0 Longshot rodd (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473534#msg7473534):
0 Shinesteel Armour (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473534#msg7473534):
1 AS-M1 "Flame Rod" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7474381#msg7474381): Voidslayer
Nah, we need a direct weapon like they developed.
I will go with the AS-M1 fluff and encourage that we need this up and running BEFORE they revise those lighting rods of their not to explode.
NM
Post by: RAM on June 04, 2017, 12:06:15 am
I feel that making it look like a gun is silly. It doesn't need any ammunition feed, chamber, barrel, or any of that. We can make it look like a science fiction energy weapon egg-with-a-handle or just have a gauntlet, or even have a two-metre-long stick with a series of magnifying crystals along it for extreme optical zoom...
I feel that completely dumping area of effect is the right thing to do, and probably converting all of the explosive energy that spreads a fireball into heat energy to set things of fire and fry people with a beam. If we can spread dangerous flames over a whole unitthan we ought to be able to makea tight beam that will set fire to a carpet or cook someone's heart... Putting the gem in the base seems silly, as the base is often awkward to get at. Outting it in the top seems sensible, it isn;t like a magazine that would get in the way, or you could stick it in the side and make pushing in a new one push out the old one.
Then again we want to preserve our gems where possible, so a design that uses gems included in its construction is probably cheaper than one that has replaceable gems that tend to get lost...
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 04, 2017, 12:09:20 am
Also I wanted to slightly improve the mini fireball not mess with the spell a whole lot. This is really put everything we already have together into an awesome weapon, we can alter it's effects later.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 04, 2017, 12:17:35 am
EDIT: And the brittleness of Crystal does not play a role here. It's been explicitly said that at the level of circuitry the fractures are so small it'd be fine for literally anything else. And we're not using it in circuitry. The only other scenario of problematic brittleness is with the Crystalclad's steam engine, which is a much bigger scale than the M1.
The appearance is for two reasons:
1.) Coolness. Magic guns!
2.) Ergonomics. The "barrel" is long to allow easy handling. It has a handle for easy handling. It has a stock for easy handling. It has a "magazine" for practical reasons necessary in the design.
I'm not completely dumping area of effect. The M1 isn't quite a gun yet and shouldn't be forced to attempt to stand on its own as a proto-gun.
By keeping a limited AoE effect, it serves a role as a mundane/long range fireball in addition to its regular sniper role. And trying to modify the fireball more is simply unecesssry and overambitious for the design. We can make a beam rifle later.
Putting the Magegem on the bottom is explicitly to mirror magazine design in modern guns. If you OT it on the top, it impedes aim. It's not exactly hard to get to the base. Just as easy as the top, really.
We don't care about conserving gems. There has never been and is not a mechanic regarding material scarcity like that. If we use AA gems, then it increases the expense of the design to Expensive at most or some similar mild effect. If we use multiple gems, then nothing else should happen as long as we don't say "100 AA Magegems per soldier." Remember that Expense is a relative term. A Very Expensive tank isn't the same as a Very Expensive gun.
Including Magegems in the construction is a horrible idea. Then you'd have a gun that can only be used once in the field before needing recharging or a Very Expensive gun that can fire twice.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 04, 2017, 12:22:50 am
Anyway, if they are effective, we can make beam cannons and rapid fire mini fireballs and such later.
Post by: Gwolfski on June 04, 2017, 04:07:57 pm
Post by: RAM on June 04, 2017, 04:50:35 pm
This is more a proof of concept that we can make a man portable spell casting device for no mages. Once we do, the sky is the limit as to what we can make. We could have our soldiers summoning fog, creating crystal shields, summoning wasps, summoning webs, uh what other, wow we don't have a lot of spells do we.That is actually a good idea. We have put way too much effort into steam-rifles to bother with fireball wands unless they have some advantage, such as rate-of-fire(Which is mostly dependent upon the amount of magic it uses, numbers will make up the difference...), accuracy(for a non-wizard it would be limited to a timed detonation, probably with a three-step range selector, or converting it into an instantaneous arcless beam), or utility(putting a small bolt through a ballista port and spreading fire throughout the interior?). Utility spells make much more sense!
Anyway, if they are effective, we can make beam cannons and rapid fire mini fireballs and such later.
Huh, just realised, we go to all this effort to get mage gems and their carpets can presumably store magic if what was said in the big argument was true...
Shield Maidens
A personal guard for our wizards. They are each equipped with a light metal tower shield of about 1x3 metres with a single brace curving from the left side near the top to the centreline of the shield where the ground would be at a roughtly 20 degree angle. This shield is made of light metals and made thin, so can be readily carried despite its absurd size. Across its back is a large circuit network linked to a pair of magegems in the sturdy handle. Activating the circuit by cluitching one of two small textured panels on the shield creates a barrier of crystal in front of the shield and its brace that is thick enough to either take a cannon shell or be largely immune to arros and flames to its front. There is also a crystal frame for rigidity and a metal beam to secure the brace and, fortunately enough, discharge lightning strikes through the shield instead of its user...
Post by: andrea on June 04, 2017, 04:54:11 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 04, 2017, 05:06:36 pm
Steam rifles, however, could probably be some day given to all our troops.
I just don't think that's a good idea to pursue. We don't need that much investment in infantry. We need to invest in areas where it can help us. I'm okay-ish with the idea of the M1 Fire Rod because it's basically a replacement for bows and serves as a sniper and anti-air, but also doesn't require the insane investment that the steam rifle does.
Again, I still prefer the Restless and HAC-1. People should vote for those.
Post by: Gwolfski on June 04, 2017, 06:59:54 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 04, 2017, 07:04:54 pm
Though I would appreciate people adding votes themselves to avoid being unclear and make everyone else's lives easier.
I also changed the link + name for the Restless to reflect the revised version I posted earlier.
Quote
DESIGNS
0 Ritual of Flame (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473465#msg7473465):
0 Institute of Mathemagical Analysis (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473465#msg7473465):
0 Hunter Falcon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473469#msg7473469):
0 Internal Detonation Engine (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473469#msg7473469):
3 AS-STV-1 "Restless" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473872#msg7473872): Chiefwaffles, Andres, Gwolfski
0 Lighting Control Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473472#msg7473472):
0 Pulse-jet (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473483#msg7473483):
0 Longshot rod (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473496#msg7473496):
1 AS-HAC-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473515#msg7473515): Kadzar
0 Longshot rodd (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473534#msg7473534):
0 Shinesteel Armour (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473534#msg7473534):
1 AS-M1 "Flame Rod" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7474381#msg7474381): Voidslayer
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 04, 2017, 07:15:53 pm
Post by: RAM on June 04, 2017, 08:15:04 pm
Waaait. We can summon crystal. Does that mean we could fast summon new tracks in front of the train.Hrmm, it would require a lot of magic...
Suck
Magic recharger for mage gems.
We Build a flower-like circuit with multiple redundant channels that feed into magegems and charges them. The redundancy allows the circuit to function even with an improper number of mageems and avoids overflows allowing magems to be inserted or removed freely. At the centre of the circuit is a diamond, attuned to recieve magic from one facing and compel it through the circuit and into the gems. This prevents the magic from being captured in nearby fields, at least weaker ones. Atop the diamond is a large block of quartz attuned to gently absorb magic from a large area and direct it into the diamond. This whole apparatus is then encased in crystal for portability and endurance with slots open to insert or remove magams as needed. Initially, these will be deployed to artillery positions and ships to free up wizards to fireball the foos...
Greatwoods
By performing a ritual a great pine-seed is bonded to a dogwood pog and absorbs a magam. By doing so it attains a massive ability to store and exploit growth energy. An apprentice then channels magic into it for
Prears
A plant that looks largely normal but has a completely unnatural root system. It sinks its roots deep into the earth using our growth magic and 'swallows' gems from the ground to send them into its fruits. Producing pears that are filled with gems. Reduces the cost of gems...
Post by: Andres on June 04, 2017, 10:03:27 pm
Design: AS-M1 "Flame Rod"I don't like this design. There are multiple reasons why I don't like this design. The core idea isn't bad, but there are details which I think make it a sub-optimal design.
Additionally, there's also a part reaching past the handle that goes over one's shoulder in order to stabilize the weapon during aiming.The stock should go against the shoulder, not over it.
Inside the barrel is a swath of circuitry. Specifically, circuitry to summon a "fire bolt" - a variant of our Streamlined Fireball design. The fire bolt uses roughly the same amount of energy as a Streamlined Fireball, but sacrifices some minor destructive power for increased speed and thus increased range. The Fire Bolt is still very destructive and has a minor AoE effect, but isn't quite as effective as a Streamlined Fireball in terms of raw power. Yet its increased speed and range make long-range shots much easier and make the M1 have a higher range than any of our fireballs.This is the greatest flaw of the design, its use of a Firebolt. There are several problems with it.
1. It would be filling the inside of the barrel with circuitry, which we've never done before and which will be especially difficult with a barrel this small.
2. It's an improvement/sidegrade of fireball, decreasing chance of success.
3. Streamlined Fireball still works against armoured opponents because it does relatively high damage. This Firebolt does less damage and may not work against armoured opponents as a result.
4. AA magegems would make the design bulky, and that's assuming it would be weak enough to fit in them. A gems are the only ones that can hold Streamlined Fireballs and they can only hold 2 of them.
Consider using bullets instead.
They're like cannonballs - which we've worked with often - except smaller.
They make use of our rifling technology, resulting in high accuracy.
The bullets will have better armour penetration since all the energy is focused on the bullet and not on creating an AoE effect.
Bullets require less explosive power than Firebolt to be effective, which means we can just strip down Streamlined Fireball. Downgrading is easier than upgrading or sidegrading, so less chance of failure. More importantly, the decreased power means we can use smaller magegems. Smaller magegems makes the design lighter and, critically, allows us to distribute more of the guns. If we can get it down to AAA, all of our forces can be equipped with them, which would be huge.
This process is done by a person applying pressure to an AAA Magegem "trigger" in the handle, pushing it into a circuit and completing it, firing the M1 without requiring any charge in the AAA Magegem Trigger.The trigger doesn't need to work via magegem+circuitry. A simple lever would work in connecting the ammunition gem to the firing circuits.
TL;DR: A sniper rifleForget sniper rifle! If we get this cheap, this could be a standard issue weapon for our troops. Infantry would become relevant again and their flying carpets would drop out of the sky under a fusillade of projectiles.
tl;dr: Make it a cheap, bullet-using rifle.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on June 04, 2017, 10:06:48 pm
tl;dr: Make it a cheap, bullet-using rifle.Such as the longshot rod?
Post by: Andres on June 04, 2017, 10:13:02 pm
Without the boiler. The boiler is unnecessary. Our Fireball spells explode, which is all we need to launch a projectile.tl;dr: Make it a cheap, bullet-using rifle.Such as the longshot rod?
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 04, 2017, 10:15:41 pm
(Kind-of-Ninja-Edit: I crossed this out because I realize Andres wants a rifle using fireballs as propulsion instead of steam like our cannons. I still think the above stuff is valid, just not relevant right now.)
Also it'd make it really easy to incorporate breech-loading in the HA1 and HC1-E in one revision. Which would be super useful.
Most of your criticism seems to mostly be opinion/assumptions which are fine. (Except the stock thing, which I'll just go ahead and edit now). But really, I'm not that invested in the AS-M1 (though with that being said, I want to keep that designation if we do steam rifles) because of its niche use.
Oh yeah, and since I mentioned it, what do people think of the HAC-1 as a general design to pursue in the near future?
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 04, 2017, 10:21:41 pm
I understand it might not be desired this turn, but please consider it for future designs.
Post by: RAM on June 05, 2017, 01:21:11 am
Crystalcad
Them varmits be droppin da bomb on arr shippies! This be bads! We dun gots to makes up da covered shippies! If sa shippy be covered anyways, wh dun we make it under da waters!
We Propel it by having forward-facing covered pipes pull seawater into the base of crystal(to prevent salt corrosion) boilers and pump it out of backwards-facing pipes attached to the top of the boilers.
Steering is handled via crystal-summoning circuits at the back, which summon fixed rudders.
It has "towers" that act as floats, along with floatation 'bells' while the hull remains submerged due to ballast. These towers are obviously sealed at the top and bottom to prevent leaking if they become damaged, and the ballast is in sections that can be removed by activating a fireball circuit to blast them off if the towers lose buoyancy.
Ventilation is handled by numerous sealable pipes to the surface, with covers at the top. Under the tube are either boilers to expel air or cooling blocks based on the tower of frost to pull air in.
Drainage is handled by floor-tubes that leade to a central drainage pipe, leading to a simple pressure valve with a boiler under it, steaming the water out once it gets to a volume large enough to enter the boiler.
It is armed with two towers, each with a single cannon and a turn-table many ball-bearings are used to allow the cannon, and its heavy-armoured crystal encasementm to rotate as applicable. The encasement has a top and a bottom, with the cannon sticking out of a relatively small vertical slit in the top, while the bottom has a railing to rotate it. Access is granted by a hatch in the back of each tower that consists of a loose plate and a par of wedge-shaped beams and braces to hold it closed. There is also an emergency hatch in from the top of the hull, but that is sealed by a screwed hatch with an ice enchantment and can only be used when the hull surfaces after releasing all its ballastm which would ideally never happen. The wizards remain safely in the hull, relying upon gems to power the cannons.
Null Tube
A pulse-jet on wheels with an Equaliser on it. It can be used on land or sea(sans wheels) to charge into the enemy, rendering their magic gone.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 05, 2017, 08:54:02 am
Quote
DESIGNS
0 Ritual of Flame (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473465#msg7473465):
0 Institute of Mathemagical Analysis (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473465#msg7473465):
0 Hunter Falcon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473469#msg7473469):
0 Internal Detonation Engine (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473469#msg7473469):
4 AS-STV-1 "Restless" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473872#msg7473872): Chiefwaffles, Andres, Gwolfski, FallacyofUrist
0 Lighting Control Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473472#msg7473472):
0 Pulse-jet (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473483#msg7473483):
0 Longshot rod (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473496#msg7473496):
1 AS-HAC-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473515#msg7473515): Kadzar
0 Longshot rodd (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473534#msg7473534):
0 Shinesteel Armour (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473534#msg7473534):
1 AS-M1 "Flame Rod" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7474381#msg7474381): Voidslayer
Supporting the Restless because better steam engines and infrastructure.
Future Revision: Crystal Optics: We've noticed that crystal bends light. Overcome by visions of directed beams of concentrated light and crystal shrouds of invisibility, our researchers focused on learning how to manipulate the creation of crystal in our Crystalworks to change its light-bending properties. What we've found is that invisibility crystal and crystal "laser" emitters are definitely possible, but need more than a revision. However, we've also developed a more mundane tool from this: a "spyglass", or as our astronomers are calling it, "telescope", which allows vision at far greater distances than normally possible, and eliminates the need for spotters, as well as being very tactically useful.
Post by: andrea on June 05, 2017, 08:57:24 am
Quote
DESIGNS
0 Ritual of Flame (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473465#msg7473465):
0 Institute of Mathemagical Analysis (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473465#msg7473465):
0 Hunter Falcon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473469#msg7473469):
0 Internal Detonation Engine (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473469#msg7473469):
4 AS-STV-1 "Restless" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473872#msg7473872): Chiefwaffles, Andres, Gwolfski, FallacyofUrist
0 Lighting Control Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473472#msg7473472):
0 Pulse-jet (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473483#msg7473483):
0 Longshot rod (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473496#msg7473496):
2 AS-HAC-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473515#msg7473515): Kadzar, Andrea
0 Longshot rodd (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473534#msg7473534):
0 Shinesteel Armour (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473534#msg7473534):
1 AS-M1 "Flame Rod" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7474381#msg7474381): Voidslayer
I don't believe in trains, I believe in guns.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 05, 2017, 11:01:31 am
Your soldiers are intially skeptical when the Steam Transport Vehicle rolls out for the first time.
The Restless is a machine-printed crystal hull covering a pair of steam engines. It's essentially a large, squashed box with a few holes in the crystal frame, and a small hook on the back to drag another crystal box on steel grooved wheels. The main "engine" features four wheels, two of which are piston-operated and geared to the steam engine via large steel gears and locked in unison. These wheels are cast akin to our cannon barrels, but each wheel must be worked and tempered afterwards to ensure no defects or burrs exist that would disrupt the way they roll. The grooved wheels ride along a pair of steel tracks mounted on wooden ties, secured by a bed of gravel. The tracks don't sink into mud like wagon wheels do, which is a good thing - the entire thing is enormously heavy. The steam engines must be geared down to a large degree to provide enough torque to move the thing, and even then it can't climb hills more than 10°. On the up-side, the train will never have to deal with such a steep angle, as our workers can dictate the slope and path of the tracks.
The drivers compartment features a wide, open area that allows fresh air to whistle through, helping to cool the internal compartment which gets hot despite the cooling circuits. The driver is paired with an apprentice to repair fractures in the crystal frame and keep the (very hot) steam engines operating. The machine is controlled by two levers, one which acts as the "engage" for the steam engine and one which acts as a brake. Currently the lever only "engages" or "disengages" two secondary gears that connect the driving pistons to their respective steam engine. One secondary gear allows "forward" motion, and the other allows "reverse". Switching between directions when not at a full stop will shear the gears and require lengthy repairs. They must also be disengaged before braking, which is done by metal plates that use steam pressure to press against the wheels. Speed is otherwise controlled by how hot the Engine Apprentice runs the steam engines.
A small hook on the back allows a secondary vehicle to be hooked on. We've taken the liberty of creating a crystal wagon that can carry twenty Arstotzkan soldiers in full armor, albeit uncomfortably. It features four free-spinning grooved wheels and a canvas canopy to keep off the sun and rain. It also has another hook on the back, allowing additional wagons to be daisy-chained together. The entire train could be caught by a man on horseback, but unlike a horse it does not grow tired and can carry a modest load. This should solve our issues feeding ammo to the HA1, and help move around troops. We can hook maybe four wagons to the train before it becomes too heavy to run properly. Very Expensive.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 05, 2017, 11:06:16 am
Revision: Crystal Optics: We've noticed that crystal bends light. Overcome by visions of directed beams of concentrated light and crystal shrouds of invisibility, our researchers focused on learning how to manipulate the creation of crystal in our Crystalworks to change its light-bending properties. What we've found is that invisibility crystal and crystal "laser" emitters are definitely possible, but need more than a revision. However, we've also developed a more mundane tool from this: a "spyglass", or as our astronomers are calling it, "telescope", which allows vision at far greater distances than normally possible, and eliminates the need for spotters, as well as being very tactically useful.
That said, I'm also fine going for a Restless revision. Infrastructure is key!
Post by: helmacon on June 05, 2017, 12:07:58 pm
Post by: andrea on June 05, 2017, 12:24:04 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 05, 2017, 12:59:57 pm
Crystal Restless: A lot of the stuff we're using to build our Restless isn't crystal. We have the Crystalworks, we should be using more crystal. Crystal chains! Crystal wheels! Crystal treads! Well, within reason. Where it's better to be flexible, use metal, but for a lot of this stuff, it would be better to use crystal.
Chiefwaffles could probably do it better, though.
Post by: andrea on June 05, 2017, 01:15:02 pm
Post by: helmacon on June 05, 2017, 01:42:53 pm
The whole "Fracturing from heat" thing is a more fundamental problem that we would have to revise our crystal itself to fix. Probably ought to burn a revision on that when we have time.
Post by: RAM on June 05, 2017, 03:21:19 pm
Erection of Everywhere Explosions
We convert a Tower of Forever Frost to activate the streamlined fireball spell instead. Hopfully producing a very expensive tower that can send out a dozen fireballs per minute.
Ministry of Martial Magecraft
We add a course to the academies to train our wizards to use stances and powerful utterances as an alternative to gestures and chants. This allows them to increase their mobility while casting, increasing their survivability while in the open. It has also been reported that fireball punches are epic.
Halls of Higher Heirophants
We take the most promising apprentice-level graduates and retain them for more advanced courses at the academy, hopingthat some amongst them will advance beyond apprentice level.
Fruitfulness
We convert the dogwood staves to use a magam and send them to farmers to quickly progress fruit trees into the fruit-bearing stage.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 05, 2017, 04:03:59 pm
Because it sounds like we didn't make a train. I don't even know where to begin in terms of revisions.
Post by: andrea on June 05, 2017, 04:07:11 pm
Heat-conscious steam engine
Steam is hot. But the casing doesn't need to be. The boiler of the steam engine is covered by an insulating layer of animal hidein which embedded circuits dissipate heat, similar to those used on the condenser and on cannon barrels. Well regulated, this allows the inside part of the insulating layer ( the boiler walls) to stay at a safe temperature for the metal, while the outside is at a comfortable room temperature. Ensuring proper cooling of the boiler walls allows us to increase heat and pressure inside without an increased risk of explosion. (heat makes materials less strong. we keep it cool, it works better)
and no, it is not a train from the description, it is a tracked vehicle
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 05, 2017, 04:11:01 pm
I don't really know how this happened. I also bet we could have avoided the -1 with an actual train. But at least this is something we were planning on doing?
I guess Evicted may have seen "tracks" and thought like these kinds of tracks instead of rails.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 05, 2017, 04:12:33 pm
Post by: andrea on June 05, 2017, 04:13:06 pm
edit: I mean... tracked vehicle can move stuff and people in the front lines. Train can't, because you are not going to build a railroad while under heavy fire.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 05, 2017, 04:16:36 pm
That and a train solves severa critical problems. Like our shell/water shortage in HA1s. It also is just good for all the thing I've said so far - mass troop and supply transport as well as limited mobile artillery.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 05, 2017, 04:37:12 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 05, 2017, 05:02:09 pm
Thanks, Evicted.
Now, onto the revision. The actual train seems to be fine and I don't think it needs a revision for now. A stronger steam engine would help (carrying more wagons) but that's something that can be globally and help the Crystalclad+Train. We could also reduce its expense, but eh.
Instead, we should focus on the category that Moskurg's threatening to overpower our artillery with: Air.
Revision: Hunter Falcons
Our falcons are, at the moment, only good for harassing enemy carpets. Sure, this harassing is effective, but as soon as the enemy does anything to their air units - new swords, stronger carpets, giving their riders armor, etc. - our falcons will become useless. We need to make them effective enough to become competent aerial fighters.
The Hunter Falcon is what you get when you modify the spell we use to artificially tame Falcons. The spell is simple to modify in the way we want. Currently, it just "tweaks" their brain to give it the effects of being tamed. By using our experience in life magic and in this spell, we can change it to in addition to the taming, also "tweak" the rest of the Falcon's body to make it much larger.
A larger falcon is extremely useful. It should be roughly 200% of its original size, and this increased size comes with many benefits: Stronger, Tougher, and just better. The new Hunter Falcon doesn't have to harass a mage until they fall off or run away, but they can directly eliminate the mage. They can attack the carpet to quickly shred it to pieces, or kill the rider outright thanks to its greatly increased size. It can take more punishment from arrows, lightning, swords, and any other attacks - all thanks to its increased size. The Hunter Falcon should be devastatingly effective all thanks to this one revision to the taming spell using experience we certainly have.
If possible, we also wish to equip our Falcons with machine crystal talon "blades" to enhance their lethality. It's an extraordinarily easy task - just attaching some sharp crystal to their talons. Crystal talons should generally increase lethality and make the Hunter Falcon more effective at piercing armor.
I'm just including this in the votebox to retain my sanity. If anyone wants to put in their own stuff from before, please feel free to.
Quote
1 - Hunter Falcons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475941#msg7475941): Chiefwaffles
Post by: RAM on June 05, 2017, 05:51:44 pm
Dogwood Giants
We modify the dogwood staves to take grown trees and make them bigger. We use this to convert naturally-occuring fortifications and increase them to resist ballistae, increase the volume of fresh wood to make them more flame resistant, and increase their reach to improve them as observation posts.
....I have no clue how I missed that. I'm so sorry, I'm a complete moron. I must have read the word "train" a dozen times. Sorry guys, I'll fix it."train" technically just means a trailing assemblage, generally of vehicles, often tethered. Perhaps the most accurate usage is the train of a dress, which is just a line of fabric... It is entirely possible to have a train of A.P.C.s. Most of what we have here is a locomotive, although a locomotive without a train is pretty short of utility...
Similarly "tracks" doesn't really work as a general term. It inevitably means evidence of something's passage or a path through which something moves regularly. "tracked" is a pretty solid term though so long as it is clearly an adjective rather than a verb.
Quote
0 Crystal Optics (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475645#msg7475645):
0 Crystal Restless (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475744#msg7475744):
0 Erection of Everywhere Explosions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Ministry of Martial Magecraft (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Halls of Higher Heirophants (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Fruitfulness (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Heat-conscious steam engine (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475880#msg7475880):
1 Hunter Falcons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475941#msg7475941): Chiefwaffles
0 Dogwood Giants (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475990#msg7475990):
0 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.):
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 05, 2017, 06:13:10 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 05, 2017, 06:14:57 pm
Quote
1 Crystal Optics (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475645#msg7475645): FallacyofUrist
0 Crystal Restless (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475744#msg7475744):
0 Erection of Everywhere Explosions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Ministry of Martial Magecraft (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Halls of Higher Heirophants (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Fruitfulness (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Heat-conscious steam engine (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475880#msg7475880):
1 Hunter Falcons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475941#msg7475941): Chiefwaffles
0 Dogwood Giants (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475990#msg7475990):
Post by: RAM on June 05, 2017, 06:26:28 pm
I am pretty sure that size has little benefit against actual lightning. It is great against something liek a taser, but this is nothing like a taser, and the lightning works against humans, so double-falcons are still not worth much in context.
I am pretty sure that the spell makes them passive, I see no physical modification there. And the tree growth spell is acceleration of natural processes, and if we wanted to grow from that we would be better off investing in time magic. And it would be MUCH easier if we start from modified plants, which could easily produce clouds of ninja stars that take flight in the presence of wind... The jump from plant modification to animal modification wuld be much easier.
Dogbone staves
We swap the dogwood for bone, and convert the effect from plant to animal. We have no idea what it will do but it should be fun finding out!
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 05, 2017, 06:30:44 pm
Crystal Optics is a (really) good idea that we should probably pursue in the future but I feel like it's just putting more onto our existing artillery advantage. An artillery advantage that can get hard countered if we aren't careful.
What if they improve their carpets to let them just fly over our lines and eliminate our artillery without resistance? Spotting doesn't help at all here. Sure, you could say it helps in general with our artillery but if they hard counter our artillery, revisions helping it will become useless until we make another revision/design like this one.
Of course, we don't actually know what they're doing this turn. Crystal Optics could very well be useful and probably will be, but there's a risk that it'll be useless. Better falcons helps prevent our artillery form becoming useless while still providing an advantage everywhere else. Since our current falcons aren't 100% effective - their carpets can still do very notable amounts of damage at sea and land before being driven away by falcons, and better falcons would stop that.
I'm just nervous about how fragile our artillery advantage is. I'd rather work to secure the advantage before building on it.
Post by: RAM on June 05, 2017, 06:32:27 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 05, 2017, 06:35:34 pm
Design: AS-SPB2-Crystalclad [3, 5, 3]
The steam engine setup is pretty much just copied from the SPB1 Fog-O-War, being two steam engines hooked up to a four-blade paddle on the rear. The armament has been upgraded, allowing either three HC1-E's or a single HA1 to be mounted above-deck. Because shooting beyond line of sight is less helpful on the high seas and requires three apprentices to fire, the Crystalclad design instead features three HC1-E's that can all be fired by a single apprentice by themselves, as the higher firerate is more beneficial despite the decreased lethality of the individual cannons. Thanks to the increased number of apprentices we have at our disposal, each ship features two apprentices; one to operate the steam engines, and the second to fire off the cannons.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 05, 2017, 07:05:37 pm
Here's another argument for Crystal Optics: spending our apprentices on spotter duty prevents them from staying home and operating artillery, decreasing our firepower. If they're on spotter duty, they get killed very often, and thus can't advance to journeyman skill level... if this keeps up, we'll have a deficit in mage numbers... and people will be less likely to sign up for mage school because of the danger involved. This needs to be done.
True, it could wait for next turn's Design. I'm not dead set on this yet.
Do note that currently our falcons are Very Expensive, and a revision to make them cheaper might be safer than this revision.
Also, is anybody working on an emblem design?
Post by: RAM on June 05, 2017, 07:12:08 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 05, 2017, 07:19:36 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on June 05, 2017, 09:08:21 pm
Post by: helmacon on June 05, 2017, 09:13:21 pm
Post by: Andres on June 05, 2017, 09:18:24 pm
Quote
1 Crystal Optics (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475645#msg7475645): FallacyofUrist
0 Crystal Restless (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475744#msg7475744):
0 Erection of Everywhere Explosions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Ministry of Martial Magecraft (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Halls of Higher Heirophants (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Fruitfulness (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Heat-conscious steam engine (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475880#msg7475880):
1 Hunter Falcons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475941#msg7475941): Chiefwaffles
0 Dogwood Giants (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475990#msg7475990):
1 Crystal regen (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7476144#msg7476144): Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on June 05, 2017, 09:25:41 pm
Crystal regeneration: A minor improvement to crystal, this aims to give crystal a minor regenerative factor, to the point where microfractures and small chips repair themselves. Additionally, it allows manual repairs to be done more easily and quickly.Make that a "we leave the creation enchantment in place so that it can be renewed" and "needs magic to happen" then you have my +1. Just "Crystals regenerate now" Seems a little much for a revision to me.Quote1 Crystal Optics (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475645#msg7475645): FallacyofUrist
0 Crystal Restless (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475744#msg7475744):
0 Erection of Everywhere Explosions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Ministry of Martial Magecraft (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Halls of Higher Heirophants (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Fruitfulness (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Heat-conscious steam engine (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475880#msg7475880):
1 Hunter Falcons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475941#msg7475941): Chiefwaffles, helmacon
0 Dogwood Giants (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475990#msg7475990):
1 Crystal regen (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7476144#msg7476144): Andres, RAM
Glory to Arstotzka.
Honestly, all of these seem to be asking for new technology from a revision...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 05, 2017, 09:58:13 pm
Regenerative crystal is probably a good action idea (whether it's a design or revision), but it doesn't really solve any problems. It'd be nice to have for our stuff, sure, but we could do much more with the revision this turn. What if they introduce something new at sea? Our Crystalclads are doing well, but Moskurg's carpets are still a very large advantage at sea and combined with a new design or revision, could swap the advantage yet again at sea. Better falcons could prevent that from happening.
And what if they just upgrade their air units? They'd gain advantages in any theatre and if the upgrade's good enough, it could almost nullify our artillery advantage. What good are our artillery emplacements if the enemy can just fly over them unharmed? I do like Crystal Optics & Crystal Regen, it's just that artillery is the reason why we're winning right now and I'd really like to make sure that it stays that way.
Also, miscellaneous idea for a design at some point.
Future Design: Cloak of Mist
With this spell, a wizard can shroud a person (or small group) in a special form of mist. This mist, instead of merely obscuring view, seems to give the "wearer" of the cloak an almost invisible effect. They can walk through enemy ballistae emplacements and camps without detection and cross the no man's land unharmed. They can gain the upper hand in ambushes or simply avoid enemy detection for any other use.
It could potentially be revised to make it so the mist itself is nonmagical and the spell is just needed to summon it, making it AM-resistant.
Post by: RAM on June 05, 2017, 10:05:07 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 05, 2017, 10:09:58 pm
2.) Crystal is still a very competent armor. It's just not the perfect choice for use in machinery and moving parts which we have been doing. It's a better armor than steel for sure.
3.) Andres' proposed Crystal Regen idea doesn't fix any of this - it just fixes the microfractures and very small chips, making maintenance of the Crystalclad's engines and the Restless less of an issue.
3b.) In order to get anywhere near the scale of what you want, we'd have to use a design or multiple revisions. Using a design to just improve crystal generally and including a competent regeneration ability is more action-efficient over using multiple revisions to just get a regenerating ability.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 05, 2017, 10:13:04 pm
Soon, sooooon we will have falcon eyes for our men. And from there! Bestial splicing! Mwhahahaha! Soon, soon we will have Catgirl Assassins!
Our stealth force shall be supreme! We shall overcome Moskurg with cuteness and vicious stealthy lethality!
Anyway.
By voting Hunter Falcons, you play right into my hands! Mwhahahaha!
Quote
0 Crystal Optics (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475645#msg7475645):
0 Crystal Restless (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475744#msg7475744):
0 Erection of Everywhere Explosions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Ministry of Martial Magecraft (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Halls of Higher Heirophants (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Fruitfulness (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Heat-conscious steam engine (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475880#msg7475880):
2-3 Hunter Falcons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475941#msg7475941): Chiefwaffles, helmacon, FallacyofUrist
0 Dogwood Giants (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475990#msg7475990):
1-2 Crystal regen (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7476144#msg7476144): Andres, RAM
That said, we should totally do Crystal Optics for our next design. This is something we need, for the sake of our apprentices and getting something without penalties for once.
Post by: Andres on June 05, 2017, 10:46:46 pm
Regenerative crystal is probably a good action idea (whether it's a design or revision), but it doesn't really solve any problems. It'd be nice to have for our stuff, sure, but we could do much more with the revision this turn. What if they introduce something new at sea? Our Crystalclads are doing well, but Moskurg's carpets are still a very large advantage at sea and combined with a new design or revision, could swap the advantage yet again at sea. Better falcons could prevent that from happening.Regenerative crystal will solve a serious problem we're facing, will improve our entire line of crystal products (machinery especially), and will be an absolute boon for explosive projectile weapons.
Please read this:
The on-board apprentices can rarely patch the cracks in time, and more often than not the ship goes down.Regenerative crystal is not only meant to do self-maintenance, but also significantly increase the ease and speed at which our apprentices can do manual repairs. In doing that, our apprentices can patch the cracks our crystalclads' armour sustains and allow them to keep going, or at least not sink.
In terms of what it'll do for our crystal products, individually it's very minor, but on a large scale it is very beneficial. As it is, every single crystal item we ship out will need to be repaired by our apprentices. Our crystal is very tough, but it inevitably suffers from cumulative damage, to the point where maintenance is required from our apprentices. With this revision, cumulative damage will not exist any more. Only major stresses can damage it to the point where it requires more than the base regen to fix itself, and considering the toughness of our crystal, that stress would have to be major indeed.
This is especially useful for crystal machinery because in most cases cumulative damage is the only damage it takes. With regenerative crystal, the only cases where maintenance on our machines will be needed is if something major happens to stuff it up, such as enemy fire. Logistically speaking, the idea of machinery that doesn't need regular maintenance is huge.
Cannons and firearms work using explosions. Every explosion weakens the gun, requiring maintenance or in the worst case eventually being entirely useless. This is cumulative damage at work. Regenerative crystal means cumulative damage stops existing, because the damage accumulates only in very small increments, increments which crystal regen is specifically designed to deal with. In the future, it will allow for our cannons - and ESPECIALLY our firearms - to fire at much higher rates of fire with extremely great reliability when combined with cooling circuits.
I admit that regenerative crystal perhaps wouldn't win us any battles this turn, but it allows us to, with great confidence, build better things next turn and the turns after. Whatever we do next turn, whether it's making a firearm, getting crystal engines, redesigning our cannons to use crystal, or whatever, they will benefit greatly from this revision.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 05, 2017, 10:49:30 pm
Crystal regeneration: A minor improvement to crystal, this aims to give crystal a minor regenerative factor, to the point where microfractures and small chips repair themselves. Additionally, it allows manual repairs to be done more easily and quickly.
The Wand of Thunderbolts proves to be effective here, happily striking the exposed steam engines and often causing critical explosions that shatter the crystal hulls. The on-board apprentices can rarely patch the cracks in time, and more often than not the ship goes down.The wording of your revision suggests it solves the problem of microfractures, which is nice and all, but just makes manual repairs slightly easier. When we're faced against "critical explosions that shatter the crystal hulls", I don't think a minor regenerative ability capable to self-repair microfractures and small chips will be anywhere near enough.
I think Crystal Regen is a good idea, but I also think it'd be better done in a design without having to compromise on features.
Post by: helmacon on June 05, 2017, 10:55:38 pm
Quote
0 Crystal Optics (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475645#msg7475645):Changing to regen crystal to spite Fallacy O' Urist.
0 Crystal Restless (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475744#msg7475744):
0 Erection of Everywhere Explosions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Ministry of Martial Magecraft (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Halls of Higher Heirophants (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Fruitfulness (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Heat-conscious steam engine (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475880#msg7475880):
2? Hunter Falcons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475941#msg7475941): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
0 Dogwood Giants (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475990#msg7475990):
1-2 Crystal regen (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7476144#msg7476144): Andres, RAM, Helmacon
Mainly because I think it's better to do this now though. I promise to vote for falcons and optics next time!
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 05, 2017, 10:57:03 pm
Seems a bit silly to do that instead of voting for the right choice.
Post by: helmacon on June 05, 2017, 11:00:25 pm
Quote
Soon, sooooon we will have falcon eyes for our men. And from there! Bestial splicing! Mwhahahaha! Soon, soon we will have Catgirl Assassins!
Our stealth force shall be supreme! We shall overcome Moskurg with cuteness and vicious stealthy lethality! By voting Hunter Falcons, you play right into my hands! Mwhahahaha!
Thought he could hide it from us, huh?
Post by: RAM on June 05, 2017, 11:01:09 pm
Code: [Select]
[b][u]Phalling Glow[/u]
This is a long rod of hard metal embedded in a ribbed crystal sheath that maginifies whatever you like to watch. When a magam(or a magic finger) is pressed into its special slot then looking into it reveals all as though exposed to an unsullied noon.
It works as the flowing light disperses throughout its crystal lenses. When magic stimulates a circuit then there is a revealing effect as the essence of light(as distilled to created flare spells) impregnates the passing vision with pure illumination. The ribbed crystal coating provides a satisfying sense of friction under a grip and keeps it rigid and straight.[/b]
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 05, 2017, 11:04:05 pm
We can just not ever go in that direction. Never. But we can do Hunter Falcons now then don't do anything else!
Post by: Andres on June 05, 2017, 11:08:57 pm
The repair rate boost that regen crystal gives to manual repairs is not the same as the repair rate of its passive effect. It should actually make repairs go much faster. With our current crystal, our apprentices have to contend with the fact that crystal is a material that inherently cannot be repaired. Changing it so that it's a material that inherently can be repaired (like metal) would be a significant boost, but this goes one step further and makes it so that it has repair functionality built in! It's like if our apprentices have been trying to get two cows to breed and we have now swapped out one of their cows for a bull. Almost the exact same creature, but for one ultimately small but critical difference.Crystal regeneration: A minor improvement to crystal, this aims to give crystal a minor regenerative factor, to the point where microfractures and small chips repair themselves. Additionally, it allows manual repairs to be done more easily and quickly.The Wand of Thunderbolts proves to be effective here, happily striking the exposed steam engines and often causing critical explosions that shatter the crystal hulls. The on-board apprentices can rarely patch the cracks in time, and more often than not the ship goes down.The wording of your revision suggests it solves the problem of microfractures, which is nice and all, but just makes manual repairs slightly easier. When we're faced against "critical explosions that shatter the crystal hulls", I don't think a minor regenerative ability capable to self-repair microfractures and small chips will be anywhere near enough.
I think Crystal Regen is a good idea, but I also think it'd be better done in a design without having to compromise on features.
As for whether it should be a Design or a Revision, it should definitely be done as a Revision. It is literally just us adding a single new minor feature into an already existing design - the very definition of a revision and what the Revision phase should be used for. And make no mistake, it is a minor feature. The self-regeneration is ultimately a very minor effect in and of itself, and a Design version of this kind of feature should allow for cracks and gouges to be capable of self-repairing, but that's more than what we want. A Revision phase is ideal for this kind of thing.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on June 05, 2017, 11:12:02 pm
Oh, yeah. That.How about you fix hunter falcons so that it can actually work? Those enlargement spells we have been hearing about are just spam, they are not real. We have no spell that makes anything bigger. What we do with the trees starts with seeds. We do not end up with a giant seed, we end up with a small tree. The seed is not getting bigger directly, it is growing faster. It is an accelerant. Make your hawks faster and they might attack before the lightning is ready. Make them grow up faster and we might have some more of them so the losses don't matter so much. Bigger is completely unprecedented and largely useless. Not to mention that we have to change up our traditional changing schemes to cope with their hugeness.
We can just not ever go in that direction. Never. But we can do Hunter Falcons now then don't do anything else!
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 05, 2017, 11:23:59 pm
We can do so much more by doing it in a design.
Watch.
Future Design: Regenerative Crystal
Regenerative Crystal is a new type of crystal (that can be made at the Crystalworks of course) which utilizes ambient magical energy (in a way similar to anti-magic gems) to regenerate itself to its original form that it was summoned in.
Regenerative Crystal acts on its own, regenerating any cracks and dents that appear and even giant gashes or places where a hole was knocked straight through the crystal. It takes longer to regenerate from more critical damage, but smaller amounts of damage can be repaired nearly instantly. The rate at which the crystal regenerates itself is directly proportional to the amount of energy channeled in. Thus, in time-critical situations, a mage can directly channel their magic into a crystal construction to greatly increase the speed at which it regenerates.
If the crystal hull of a Crystalclad were to shatter, it would repair itself in very impressive time, but if time was of the essence for repairing, the nearby mages can aid it in repairing to drastically increase the speed. Furthermore, this allows mages to contribute to repairing without summoning non-machine crystal which must be magically maintained until a machine crystal part replacement can be secured.
How about you fix hunter falcons so that it can actually work? Those enlargement spells we have been hearing about are just spam, they are not real. We have no spell that makes anything bigger. What we do with the trees starts with seeds. We do not end up with a giant seed, we end up with a small tree. The seed is not getting bigger directly, it is growing faster. It is an accelerant. Make your hawks faster and they might attack before the lightning is ready. Make them grow up faster and we might have some more of them so the losses don't matter so much. Bigger is completely unprecedented and largely useless. Not to mention that we have to change up our traditional changing schemes to cope with their hugeness.The "we haven't done it before" can be applied to literally every single thing we've ever done.
This is a game based on magic. We've done life magic and we've done magic which directly changes a creature. It's seriously not a stretch to revise the spell to do it.
Post by: RAM on June 06, 2017, 12:06:57 am
Or., if we can just say "life and a thing" lets make, as a revision, life-balls, they are a fireball that magically brings to life whatever it hits. Fireballs currently ignore their antimagic and the things wwould be mermanently alive so antimagic would be useless. Just imagine the sight as their ships spontanteously come to life and digest everything in their stomachs!
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 06, 2017, 12:12:21 am
Design: Giant Falcons [2+2, 1+2-1, 6+1]We've done similar things to increasing living things in size (life magic) and we have literally modified the Falcons' minds. If we can do something as precise as that, then it shouldn't be an issue to make them bigger.
Capturing falcons is hard. After managing to capture a few, we finally have enough to start our own breeding system, ensuring that our Mathemagicians will never, ever, ever be sent out into the field with a few web-wands and be told to "catch a fuckload of birds".
Training falcons also proves to be really, really hard. Each falcon requires years of dedicated training, and quite frankly we don't have time for that. We instead develop a rudimentary "Beast Control" spell to assist in the taming, training, and imprinting of our falcons. This spell is pretty tricky to get right, but nowhere near as hard as catching a wild falcon - luckily it's made easier by our forays into beast conjuring and plant growth. The spell is permanent and doesn't require any further maintenance to keep going, instead altering the falcons mind during casting. The falcons are then equipped with a small anti-magic "bracelet" that wraps around one of their legs in a leather strap. It is relatively small, but it should keep them safe from any nasty magic that Moskurg tries on them. As a bonus, it should also strip a mage of their magical ability once they start mauling them in the face.
Post by: Andres on June 06, 2017, 12:20:39 am
Post by: RAM on June 06, 2017, 12:31:45 am
This is a game about magic. A revision would be creating crystal shields. We have no experience in shields, but it would be an easy revision because magically speaking crystal modification is easy. We could probably do crystal fortresses as a revision. Your attitude seems to be that we have falcons, so modiying falcons sshould be a revision. But our falcons are not magical. There is no precedent for the magic involved. I expect us to get massive penaties for this and quite possibly gain nothing. We could increase the size of our armour, modiification is something fitting for armour. Outside of breeding programs(Which accelerated growth would be quite sited for) there is no mundane mechanism for modifying the falcons. Magical methods for modifying a living thing that we know of include accelerating natural growth(doubling from adult size is not natural in falcons) which is only in plants so far(but a plant-to-animal switch is the sort of partial-step that a revision could justify, it is the same effect, just on a different target) and modifying their mind, which this obviously isn't. You want to make them more aggressive or tactical then maybe that would work, they could coordinate to surround before attacking or something, or focus down one target or something, then that would be fine. We have mental modification, so it might work. But just saying that we have stuff involving life, therefore giant birds, is a design thing, not a revision thing. If, instead of breeding, we summoned, then we could modify them easily, because we have experience of changing the specification of a summoned creature. If we had done my mathemagical design, then we could have taken the modification element from our fire wasps and the, umm, well we have no elenargement magic but maybe a speed element from the plant growth? And added it to the taming spell to make a go-fast spell? I actually proposed a thing to expand the power of our revisions so that maybe this sort of thing might be possible...
Oh, and I am not interested in basically lying to the G.M. to make our rolls easier. If I see a problem I will try to avoid embarking into it, and if it comes up I will try to point it out. I would rather avoid stirring anything up, but if I end up involved then I am not going to be party to a cover-up...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 06, 2017, 12:39:36 am
We're tweaking the size of our falcons.
Lore-wise, we're making relatively simple modifications to an already-existing spell in order to change a single aspect of a design we already have. We already have a spell that literally modifies creatures, and we're revising that spell to also increase the size. Our falcons aren't magical, but the spell we use to tame them and the one I want to revise is in fact magical. We're allowed to do new things during revisions. Those new things just have to be limited in ambition and be reasonable, exactly like the Hunter Falcon revision.
1.) Our spell alters the Falcon's mind. This is a physical change, as the mind is physical.
2.) We have experience in using magic to provoke unnatural growth.
3.) We alter the falcon's body and "grow" it to an unnatural size.
Bam.
Done.
Revised.
This isn't lying in literally any way shape or form. I really just don't see why you're apparently embarking on a personal crusade against the very idea of increasing the size of our falcons.
Post by: RAM on June 06, 2017, 02:29:51 am
1.) You're overestimating the brittleness of Crystal. It's not that brittle.1: A crystal is a single molecule with a very precise (and generally three dimensional) structure. It is very nearly impossible to find something more brittle. Metal is basically a single molecule with a very fluid structure, it is very difficultto find a basically rigid solid that is more flexible. Our crystal is very strong, it doesn't break easily, but when it breaks, it shatters, that is what brittle means. This makes it very nearly impossible to repair. Reproducing the initial construction forces is about the only way, and with magic and magically created crystals, that should be very easy.
2.) Crystal is still a very competent armor. It's just not the perfect choice for use in machinery and moving parts which we have been doing. It's a better armor than steel for sure.
3.) Andres' proposed Crystal Regen idea doesn't fix any of this - it just fixes the microfractures and very small chips, making maintenance of the Crystalclad's engines and the Restless less of an issue.
3b.) In order to get anywhere near the scale of what you want, we'd have to use a design or multiple revisions. Using a design to just improve crystal generally and including a competent regeneration ability is more action-efficient over using multiple revisions to just get a regenerating ability.
2: It is better than steal because it is lighter. It is as effective as steel of the same thickness as protection, but logically has different properties. Both crystal and steel break under the same force, but around the breakage level of force the crystal will tend to have a localised shattering event resulting in lost thinckness and fractures while the metal will have a broads denting effect resulting of a broad hardening effect inducing a mild increase in brittleness. The crystal basically doesn't ever change its shape, it doesn't tend to dent and when it would it doesn't spread that bending, making it wonderful for a thing like a spyglass which requires precise alignment. Metal also spreads force more effectively, so a really big hit is more likely to bend in the side of a ship and punch a small hole through a crystal. Regenerating metal would be almost useless, regenerating crystal is wonderful, and the crystal is already generated, we just need to renew the process that we already know.
3: What I want is to fix the crystal's main weakness, and this does exactly that. A regenerating crystal armour will plug up the hole that a penetrating shot did, it will restore the dent that a non-peneterating shot left, and it will restore the cracks that come from use with heavy machinery and the associated shocks. So long as they don't keep hitting the same point on the crystal the regeneration should be pretty effective, considering that it doesn't spread its damage around much unlike metal.
Balance-wise, a revision is tweaking an aspect of a design.Yes, but there are sanity issues here. Making our ships fly would be a small tweak to their locomotion. It doesn't touch on their armament, armour, crew and cargo capacity, velocity, turning rate, mass... It is just one little tweak to a single dimension of their mobility. But it is completely impractical because we don't have a grounding in that technology. If we had experience in blimps then we could try to turn them into blimps, but we don't so we can't. On the other hand, we have hawks that can fly, and fireballs that can fly, and wasps that can fly, and cannon-shells that may as well fly, and ships already almost fly considering that they hover on a liquid. So Flying is clearly totally our thing, almost all of our stuff flies, so why not our ships?!?!? Because making a ship fly is very different to anything that we have done with ships, and our flight magic operates on things very different to ships, there is simply no mechanism there. We would be more likely to pull off aquatic fire wasps or hawks on floats... There needs to be an actual justification for the effect to happen, otherwise the proposal is ludicrously ambitious and likely to to get a small associated technology on a 6...
We're tweaking the size of our falcons.
Lore-wise, we're making relatively simple modifications to an already-existing spell in order to change a single aspect of a design we already have. We already have a spell that literally modifies creatures, and we're revising that spell to also increase the size. Our falcons aren't magical, but the spell we use to tame them and the one I want to revise is in fact magical. We're allowed to do new things during revisions. Those new things just have to be limited in ambition and be reasonable, exactly like the Hunter Falcon revision.Mental passiveness to physical massiveness is a huge leap. There is nothing minor here in the change to the magic involved and no mechanisms from the hawk aspect. You are basically saying that a mind control spell should be able to spontaneously augment universal size with a revision. It is like saying that their mind-reading spell should be able to turn their soldiers into giants... That wouldn't fly on a design, far less a revision, at best you might be able to get a bonus from knowing magic that targets humans directly.
1.) Our spell alters the Falcon's mind. This is a physical change, as the mind is physical.!: Mind is not physical, that would be like saying that fire is a combustion reaction. Fire is the visible emenations from a combustion reaction. When people say "look fire" they do not point at the fuel, they point at the brightly coloured flames. Now, most peopel are more interested in the combustion reaction because they either want to start or end a fire, and that happens at the combustion reaction, but the visible fire is just exhaust fumes and heat distortions. The mind is the toughts, and we have magic that can affect thoughts directly. Occams razor says that if it effects a mind alteration then that is all that it does.
2.) We have experience in using magic to provoke unnatural growth.
3.) We alter the falcon's body and "grow" it to an unnatural size.
2: The only unnatural thing about the plant growth is it pace. The hawk growth would exceed its normal size. Taking the spell from plant to hawk is one step, from pace to maximum is another, maybe another two, and that assumes that it references growth at all and is not just time acceleration and fuel facilitation. Quite frankly I would much rather work on the angle that it is the latter because that is waaaaay more powerful and would totally explain why we had so much difficulty getting it to work. If we lock it down as being some pathetic size alteration magic then we lose a massive potential resource.
3: unnatural and growth, two things, already a big ask from a revision, definite negatives, much unlikely to work.
This isn't lying in literally any way shape or form. I really just don't see why you're apparently embarking on a personal crusade against the very idea of increasing the size of our falcons.I never said that it was lying. I could have sworn that someone said that I should stop talking down our technologies recently and but can't find the quote. still, it seems important to clarify that that is not a consideration for me, as people may mis understand that I am ignorantly risking putting us at a disadvantage. It is not ignorance, it is idealism, I know the hole that I am digging.
And it is not a personal crusade. I am still annoyed that we didn't go for the summoned vultures. Conjuration is much easier to work with and this sort of thing would be simple if we had gone with that route. So Hawks are prone to bother me but I do not believe that this is the issue at stake. I do not want us comitting to an extremely ambitious design into a new field when we have other fields to expand on. Doing so with a revision is just going to fail on us. There are reasons why we didn't get this on the initial design. This is a massively greedy revision with very little tangible benefit. We get bigger birds that are more lethal, but more easily killed, and place more strain and exposure on their handlers. I am confident that this revision will fail and it looks likely to succees, so I am bothering to announce such.
That said, this argument has run its course, I intend to stop now and invite someone else to have the last word.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 06, 2017, 03:22:25 am
1: A crystal is a single molecule with a very precise (and generally three dimensional) structure. It is very nearly impossible to find something more brittle. Metal is basically a single molecule with a very fluid structure, it is very difficultto find a basically rigid solid that is more flexible. Our crystal is very strong, it doesn't break easily, but when it breaks, it shatters, that is what brittle means. This makes it very nearly impossible to repair. Reproducing the initial construction forces is about the only way, and with magic and magically created crystals, that should be very easy.1.) Do we know it's actually crystal? We're just calling it Crystal. That doesn't mean it has to match the scientific definition of a crystal. It is magical, after all.
2: It is better than steal because it is lighter. It is as effective as steel of the same thickness as protection, but logically has different properties. Both crystal and steel break under the same force, but around the breakage level of force the crystal will tend to have a localised shattering event resulting in lost thinckness and fractures while the metal will have a broads denting effect resulting of a broad hardening effect inducing a mild increase in brittleness. The crystal basically doesn't ever change its shape, it doesn't tend to dent and when it would it doesn't spread that bending, making it wonderful for a thing like a spyglass which requires precise alignment. Metal also spreads force more effectively, so a really big hit is more likely to bend in the side of a ship and punch a small hole through a crystal. Regenerating metal would be almost useless, regenerating crystal is wonderful, and the crystal is already generated, we just need to renew the process that we already know.
3: What I want is to fix the crystal's main weakness, and this does exactly that. A regenerating crystal armour will plug up the hole that a penetrating shot did, it will restore the dent that a non-peneterating shot left, and it will restore the cracks that come from use with heavy machinery and the associated shocks. So long as they don't keep hitting the same point on the crystal the regeneration should be pretty effective, considering that it doesn't spread its damage around much unlike metal.
2.) It's also lighter. I'm not saying regenerative crystal is useless. I just think it's better done as a design instead of just kind of putting some of it into a revision where it doesn't reach its full potential and where we could use that revision for better things.
3.) Crystal will still be brittle. Giving it very minor regenerative abilities isn't going to change that. This will just fix the microfractures from machinery, which is an extremely minor problem. All it does is "oh an apprentice has to maintain a very small part of the ship every couple of days"
Yes, but there are sanity issues here. Making our ships fly would be a small tweak to their locomotion. It doesn't touch on their armament, armour, crew and cargo capacity, velocity, turning rate, mass... It is just one little tweak to a single dimension of their mobility. But it is completely impractical because we don't have a grounding in that technology. If we had experience in blimps then we could try to turn them into blimps, but we don't so we can't. On the other hand, we have hawks that can fly, and fireballs that can fly, and wasps that can fly, and cannon-shells that may as well fly, and ships already almost fly considering that they hover on a liquid. So Flying is clearly totally our thing, almost all of our stuff flies, so why not our ships?!?!? Because making a ship fly is very different to anything that we have done with ships, and our flight magic operates on things very different to ships, there is simply no mechanism there. We would be more likely to pull off aquatic fire wasps or hawks on floats... There needs to be an actual justification for the effect to happen, otherwise the proposal is ludicrously ambitious and likely to to get a small associated technology on a 6...This is hyperbole.
Making our spell that physically modies brains to also grow the Falcon beyond natural sizes using experience from our spell that makes plants grow isn't anywhere near making our ships fly. You're just ignoring the logic here. It's kind of insulting, actually. You're just making random irrelevant comparisons to try and weaken my point. We know how to artificially grow living things. We know how to properly modify animals. This is nowhere near your frankly stupid example.
Mental passiveness to physical massiveness is a huge leap. There is nothing minor here in the change to the magic involved and no mechanisms from the hawk aspect. You are basically saying that a mind control spell should be able to spontaneously augment universal size with a revision. It is like saying that their mind-reading spell should be able to turn their soldiers into giants... That wouldn't fly on a design, far less a revision, at best you might be able to get a bonus from knowing magic that targets humans directly.More assumptions. We're not making the Falcons "mentally passive". We're literally taming them with a spell. We're using magic to make them recognize our troops as friendly, Moskurgers as enemies, and to obey commands. How is this just "mental passiveness"?
1: Mind is not physical, that would be like saying that fire is a combustion reaction. Fire is the visible emenations from a combustion reaction. When people say "look fire" they do not point at the fuel, they point at the brightly coloured flames. Now, most peopel are more interested in the combustion reaction because they either want to start or end a fire, and that happens at the combustion reaction, but the visible fire is just exhaust fumes and heat distortions. The mind is the toughts, and we have magic that can affect thoughts directly. Occams razor says that if it effects a mind alteration then that is all that it does.1: The mind is in fact physical. Every single thing you do, you think, you remember, is all physical. It's all reflected in and based on your brain. In order to change anything about the Falcons' minds, we have to physically change their mind. This is a fact. We are permanently altering their brains. Mind == Brain.
2: The only unnatural thing about the plant growth is it pace. The hawk growth would exceed its normal size. Taking the spell from plant to hawk is one step, from pace to maximum is another, maybe another two, and that assumes that it references growth at all and is not just time acceleration and fuel facilitation. Quite frankly I would much rather work on the angle that it is the latter because that is waaaaay more powerful and would totally explain why we had so much difficulty getting it to work. If we lock it down as being some pathetic size alteration magic then we lose a massive potential resource.
3: unnatural and growth, two things, already a big ask from a revision, definite negatives, much unlikely to work.
2: But we're still making it unnatural growth. "Time acceleration and fuel facilitation" is just such an unnecessary assumption of how it works that only serves to "disprove" my Revision. Why would we be doing that? If we were doing that, we'd know it. Evicted isn't the kind of person to tell us that a tiny aspect that we never knew about made something useless. If that kind of thing was relevant, then we'd know it.
3: Okay, you're doing that thing where you unecssarily make something complex. For example, I can say "I walk down the stairs" or "I move my leg down, then I have to make check the next location where I shall step and coordinate it with the position of my leg. Using my muscle memory, I have to place my foot down on the step and shift weight so I don't fall down. ..." Adding more steps or parts doesn't make something more complex.
In fact, watch. Let me give Regenerative Crystal just a bit of the same treatment that you've been giving Hunter Falcons (and many of my other, working designs). I don't believe this, but it's to serve a point. I can do this exact same thing to practically every single working and effective design we have, too.
Crystal regeneration: A minor improvement to crystal, this aims to give crystal a minor regenerative factor, to the point where microfractures and small chips repair themselves. Additionally, it allows manual repairs to be done more easily and quickly.What? We're just going to make crystal grow now? Machine crystal is inherently unmagical - that's the point. How the hell would we make an unmagical material grow without external forces? It's like just asking someone today to make regular steel just regenerate by itself. Crystal is just a physical structure, and nothing can make it grow. It's made of molecules and molecules can't just replicate themselves!
We don't even have any experience in making crystals regenerate themselves. Why would we be able to do it in a revision?
"But we have life magic!" You might say, but how's that even relevant? All life magic does is increase pace of growth, and crystal doesn't have any pace of growth because it doesn't regenerate or grow.
"But we can summon crystal!" Then how are we going to do that? What? We don't know how to make materials summon more of themselves! It wouldn't even be machine crystal, and the regenerated material would dissipate and would be dispellable from anti-magic just like our old summoned crystal. And how's our experience from having mages summon crystal going to translate to making crystal regenerate itself? Those are two different things! Just because someone knows how to smelt steel doesn't mean they can imbue all steel with the ability to smelt more of itself when damaged.
Then how are we going to make the crystal even know when to regenerate? How's it not going to just become a tumor? We'd have to make crystal intelligent for that, and we have no experience in that. We'd have to do it in multiple designs to even try to get it to work. If we just give crystal the ability to regenerate all our designs will obviously just start growing out of control and become useless. We don't even know how to make anything intelligent - all we know is how to modify minds and that doesn't apply here at all.
I could go on, but I think that proves my point.
I never said that it was lying.Yeah?
Oh, and I am not interested in basically lying to the G.M. to make our rolls easier.
I don't get it. I don't get it. You always make up these strange reasons based on your own assumption-based perception of how magic should work, instead of how it works in Wands Race. And you keep on trying to pick apart things based on your own personal rules of magic when they don't apply. What I'm making are logical connections when you seem to want only solid "+1"s to existing tech and nothing else. A revision isn't just a +1 to one of the rolls. This is a solid revision - we're revising our spell to include growth, which is a thing that we already know how to do with plants. Even without life magic experience, our falcon spell would be enough to add growth to in a revision. Life magic just helps.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 06, 2017, 03:43:45 am
This alteration to the fireball line of spells, specifically the mini-fireball, is faster and longer ranged but has a much smaller area of effect blast. This makes it perfect for taking out small targets at long range (like carpets).
Post by: RAM on June 06, 2017, 03:44:02 am
Yes. My quoted statements are, to my mind, very obviously and comprehensively compatible. It is obvious that we are failing to communicate directly. It is time to just leave our arguments to stand on their own and see where the pieces fall.I never said that it was lying.Yeah?Oh, and I am not interested in basically lying to the G.M. to make our rolls easier.
Post by: helmacon on June 06, 2017, 05:00:53 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 06, 2017, 05:08:26 am
You can point out the flaws in pretty much any of our current designs. But they work. They work because this is a game about magic. That's why I don't get RAM here - he devotes so much time to trying to disprove my stuff using these intricate little "details" of his. But really, it just needs to sound plausible and not insane. Which Crystal Regen and Hunter Falcons both do.
(also Helmacon c'moooon vote for Hunter Falcons. Crystal Regen just means we don't have to maintain our crystal machinery. Hunter Falcons makes it much harder for us to lose our advantage in every theatre!)
Post by: evictedSaint on June 06, 2017, 09:22:10 am
Post by: andrea on June 06, 2017, 09:30:15 am
( by the way, crystals can grow even with mundane means. just use magic to make those mundane means happen and we have regenerating mundane crystal which just stops regenerating in antimagic fields.)
Post by: evictedSaint on June 06, 2017, 09:37:11 am
Quote
0 Crystal Optics (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475645#msg7475645):
0 Crystal Restless (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475744#msg7475744):
0 Erection of Everywhere Explosions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Ministry of Martial Magecraft (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Halls of Higher Heirophants (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Fruitfulness (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475839#msg7475839):
0 Heat-conscious steam engine (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475880#msg7475880):
2? Hunter Falcons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475941#msg7475941): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
0 Dogwood Giants (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7475990#msg7475990):
1-2 Crystal regen (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7476144#msg7476144): Andres, RAM, Helmacon
I was going off this votebox, which for some odd reason listed the votes as 2? and 1-2
I don't pretend to understand your voting process.
Post by: andrea on June 06, 2017, 09:39:27 am
I would add a vote, but who knows how this unholy votebox works.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 06, 2017, 10:58:12 am
Previously, crystals have been limited by cumulative microfractures. This resulted in a need for periodic maintenance, defeating the point of "permanent" crystals.
Tweaks to the nature of machine-summoned crystals has resulted in a variant of our standard crystalline substances. By feeding on the (very minute amount) of magic naturally present in the air, our crystals can repair the minor fractures they sustain through standard use. The crystals are still mildly brittle, and they can't repair catastrophic cracks or missing portions, but now they should be usable for most mundane things - like the crystal mounting for the steam engines on the Crystalclad or Restless. Our soldiers also no longer require magely assistance to keep their cheap crystal axes in working order.
Please vote on an emblem.
Post by: Andres on June 06, 2017, 11:37:01 am
Right, the emblem. Before I couldn't do it because I didn't have enough time to do it, then with the discussions about what to do I forgot about it. I'll work on it now.
Post by: Andres on June 06, 2017, 12:00:17 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote
1 - Glory to Arstotzka (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7476729#msg7476729): AndresGlory to Arstotzka.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 06, 2017, 01:46:01 pm
replace them with fireballs and I'm game. Maybe replace the angels with cannons, we're not a religious people.
Post by: Andres on June 06, 2017, 01:58:59 pm
Post by: RAM on June 06, 2017, 02:35:36 pm
Quote
0 - Avert your eyes (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473465#msg7473465):
1 - Glory to Arstotzka (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7476729#msg7476729): Andres
Post by: Kadzar on June 06, 2017, 02:42:24 pm
((There is only so much I can do with Paint, Google Images, and my level of artistic skill.))Give me some time, I can probably put something together.
Post by: RAM on June 06, 2017, 02:56:38 pm
Post by: Kadzar on June 06, 2017, 04:23:35 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Any requests for changes? I don't know what font Andres used for his flag, otherwise I would have included an "ARSTOTZKA" underneath.
Post by: RAM on June 06, 2017, 04:43:17 pm
But ehh, we go where the clipart takes us I suppose.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 06, 2017, 04:44:55 pm
Maybe move the cannons up a bit and have it so there's just one frost tower in the center, starting at the bottom and going up to the falcon? It'd be behind everything else.
Also something to consider is a bit like what Andres did. In addition to adding a prominent "ARSTOTZKA" label (if you ever find the font) you could add a repeated slightly-faded "GLORY" to the entire background to make it look more interesting?
@RAM:
I think the HC1 looks like a Bombard, the HC1-E looks similar-ish to a more modern cannon, and the HA1 looks vaguely similar to WW1 artillery. Of course, none of them will look exactly like their counterparts, but they should be similar.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 06, 2017, 04:48:27 pm
Quote
0 - Avert your eyes (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7473465#msg7473465):
1 - Glory to Arstotzka (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7476729#msg7476729): Andres
2 - Kadzar's Emblem: Kadzar, FallacyofUrist
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 06, 2017, 05:01:03 pm
Post by: Kadzar on June 06, 2017, 05:26:51 pm
Spoiler: Version 2 (click to show/hide)
Post by: helmacon on June 06, 2017, 05:34:50 pm
I propose a blue background with icicles hanging off of a grey sphere in the center. The snowflake faded into the background at various places around the flag, and the tower omitted completely.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 06, 2017, 05:42:35 pm
That, and our color at the beginning of the thread is red.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 06, 2017, 05:50:35 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 06, 2017, 05:56:50 pm
Spoiler: Chief's Emblem (click to show/hide)
Okay, I made mine! I still like Kadzar, but what do people think of this one? I can quickly make some adjustments if anyone wants.
'Tis probably trash, but I mostly just wanted a stylized option. I made sure to keep the .pdn file and all that so like I said, extensive adjustment is very easy.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 06, 2017, 07:15:02 pm
Spoiler: Version 2 (click to show/hide)
Alright, looks like this one wins.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 06, 2017, 11:14:43 pm
This year sees Arstotzka develop a new weapon known as the "Restless", a primitive crystal 'train' that uses two steam engines can be used to move troops around and transport heavy equipment and supplies, like ammunition for the HA1 artillery. This allows their artillery to fire essentially non-stop, assuming they have a target to fire at. Their laborers go through great effort laying down sections of steel tracks from the capitol to the front lines; currently the terrain is only smooth enough for tracks to be laid down in the plains, although effort is being made to path the few sections of jungle available. The mountains are rather inhospitable to trains, as the steep inclines are too much for the humble little train and the labor involved in tunneling through bedrock is far too much. They also go ahead and revise their crystals to repair themselves to a minor degree; repeated stress fractures are no longer a thing, and apprentices are no longer required to repair microfractures. This makes their Crystalclads and crystal weaponry more reliable in the long-term.
Moskurg doubles down on their ability to fly: the Alsamma Safina is their latest creation. Essentially a Sirocco sailing ship chopped down to the bare minimum, the cargohold is packed with War Pegasi to give it the needed lift to fly. It was initially a National Effort, but Moskurg spent their revision improving the manufacturing process for their War Pegasi and lowered the cost of the carpet and the ship to Expensive and Very Expensive, respectively. This also has an added bonus of improving the enchantment time on the carpets by a small amount, though they are still by no means permanent. The Alsamma Safina is crewed by the bare minimum, consisting entirely wizards and apprentices. Any excess lift is taken up by the ballista and firestorm ammo, so they won't be deploying troops from the ship any time soon.
The jungle sees a renewed intensity.
Arstotzkan artillery fires non-stop now, seeming to rely more on shelling away any cover the trees provide rather than focusing on troop positions. Apprentices with flares are almost redundant at this point, as artillery crews have enough ammo now that they can fire blindly. That's not to say that flare spotting isn't important; when Moskurg positions are found, a green flare spells certain doom for anyone in the immediate area as every gun in range turns and begins firing. Moskurg ballistas have been mostly relegated to apprentice-hunting, forgoing their firestorm ammo to send ballista bolts whistling towards their targets with pin-point accuracy. Most of Moskurgs mages have taken to the air on War Pegasi and Alsamma Safina's anyways, so they couldn't field all their ballistas even if they had a reason too.
War Pegasi tend to do most of the heavy lifting, now. Once again merely Expensive, they run sorties as often as possible. Anti-mage falconiers attack whenever the carpet bombers are spotted over the horizon, but there's so many that as soon as a falcon takes flight half a dozen bolts of lightning arc down - at least one is guaranteed to hit, though it's wasteful and inefficient. Once overhead the carpet-riders go through their saddle-bags of firestorm grenades as quickly as they can before returning back home to re-enchant, re-supply, and attack once more. The Queen of the Sky is the Alsamma Safina, though. With the ballista being mounted so high, the range is extended to be equivalent with the HA1 artillery. Lucky Strike is less effective with the long flight-time of the ammo, so it's not quite as effective at pin-point strikes. Arstotzkan artillery has an elevation of 45°, and there's a "sweet spot" when the airship approaches where it's just in the artillery's envelope of fire. The large-caliber HA1 shells are powerful enough to punch through the airships Adamantium armor and shred the carpets within, crippling or destroying the ship. Though it's not always a sure thing that they will hit, enough airships have been shot down while trying to get over Arstotzkan positions that the standard practice is to stand back and lob firestorm ballista shells into artillery nests indiscriminately. The large ship is too big for a falcon to take down, and having a deck to stand on means the defenders stand a better chance at cutting down the birds as they approach.
Arstotzka's train is pretty useful here; troops are quickly moved into position for raids, and artillery is never without shells or water. The increased troop movement isn't significant enough to make a huge difference, as each car can only carry twenty men at a time, but the ammo and water supplies are instrumental. Better crystal weaponry also has a small effect - troops no longer need to carry back-up longswords in case their crystal axe snaps from poor maintenance. The trains are particularly vulnerable to raids, however; al-Mutriqa personally destroys one by ramming it off the tracks with a single swing of his golden mace (stories of his victory may have been exaggerated).
Ultimately, the wooden splinters from exploding trees and (what's left) of the tree cover pushes the favor of the battle towards Arstotzka. The entire theatre is still freezing thanks to their many Lesser Towers of Frost, and Moskurgs air force can't do it all alone. Arstotzka manages to push Moskurg back another section of jungle, but it's not by a large margin.
Arstotzka gains a section of jungle.
In the open desert, where the temperature isn't freezing during the day, Moskurg sees more success.
Air troops harry the encroaching army as they trek across the desert sands, bombing water wagons before they can supply artillery positions. With Moskurgs greater flight-time they can actually push further back to hit these delicate supply lines, and it really helps. Arstotzka must leap-frog from oasis to oasis for water, and without a supply train running through the mountains they can't maintain the same high rate of fire as they had in the jungle. The desert continues blowing sand in their faces thanks to Divine Desert Winds, and on the open sands there's nowhere to hide from the enemy overhead. Infantry combat is rare and quick. The brutal melees are fairly even, with Moskurgs Adamantium weapons on-par with Arstotzka's Crystal. Arstotzka's armor provides more complete coverage, but Moskurgs Adamantium armor allows greater flexibilty and is lighter - though attacks can often cut through the leather straps holding it together. Arstotzka's troops are better trained, but the open terrain favors Moskurg. Ultimately, though, the War Pegasi can provide Close Air Support, and Arstotzka's artillery must wait until their troops are disengaged before they can shell the enemy troops. But again, these battles are rare - Moskurg can rarely get close before an Arstotzkan flare goes up.
The mountains are different, though - Arstotzka has literally lined the mountains with HA1 emplacements. Well-stocked and well-dug in, they are incredibly difficult to push out. Moskurgs airship can't gain a height advantage here, sadly. Already at max altitude, they can't get a range or height advantage on the emplacements and are forced to hold back lest the artillery men take pot-shots at the large, slow-moving boat. War Pegasi are much more effective here, though - the stationary HA1 emplacements are welcoming to firestorm grenades, and it becomes common practice to bail out of the emplacement once War Pegasi are spotted on the horizon. The falcons are once again stymied by the thunderbolts wielded by each rider, and Anti-Magic bomb arrows actually prove to be more effective. With a lower relative altitude, they're once again in range of archers on the high peaks. Even mass volleys of mundane arrows can be effective, if they catch the ride unaware. Infantry assaults are suicidal, as the freezing cold, vertical inclines, and raining arrows makes it almost impossible for the foot soldiers to reach the peaks. Myark does his part, flinging fireballs down the cliffs as easily as breathing. One report even says he managed to blast a fireball straight up, piercing the hull of an airship with a single ball of fire. All reports are second-hand, and though everyone agrees it happens no one can point to someone who witnessed the event. His Staff of True Light does a good job of turning back infantry as they trudge uphill all on it's own, though the carpet riders and airships are a bit more resolute.
At the end of the day, Moskurg has the advantage in the open terrain - without trenches or tree lines to shoot at, Arstotzka's artillery has a harder time hitting the fleeting, mobile troops. Arstotzka has the advantage in the mountains, able to shoot down War Pegasi and airships as they approach. Moskurg manages to bomb Arstotzka back to the mountains, where they sit with their lethal HA1 emplacements.
Ultimately (Coinflip: Moskurg) Moskurg manages to gain the upper hand, pushing Arstotzka back and forcing them to cede a foothold in the mountains to the desert-dwellers.
Moskurg has gained foothold in the mountains.
Arstotzkan supply trains keep their HA1 artillery well-supplied, and artillery assaults occur non-stop. With static trenches and clear lines of sight, they're devastatingly effective despite using non-explosive ammunition. Moskurg carpet-bombers fly sorties like clockwork, but their firestorm grenades are only effective at stalling HA1 artillery pieces, not destroying them. The metal components are often fine, especially with the nickel circuitry, but the fire burns down the wooden carriages and requires new ones to be made before they can be fired again. Occasionally carpet bombers will cause a barrel to crack or manage to kill the artillery crew, but with so many apprentices at their disposal thanks to their Academy Initiative, Arstotzka can afford to replace the crews lost. More devestating is the Wands of Thunderbolts, which cause the cannons to weld shut and require more lengthy repairs, but the wands are single-use only, inaccurate, and often used just to fend off attacking falcons. A better target is Arstotzka's crystal train with its two steam engines - which are connected to ground through the gearing and wheels. The explosions are quite pretty, and do a good job at stalling artillery assaults. Infantry combat is limited to raids, as commanders have decided that day-time charges across no-mans land is suicidal, though Moskurg is fielding fewer ballistas now. It's still enough to deter infantry assaults, though.
With static trenches to shoot at, Arstotzka has a slight lead. The Alsamma Safina can rarely get overhead to cause massive prolonged destruction, and Arstotzka's artillery does a slightly better job of securing advances than Moskurgs carpet bombers. It's a close thing, but Arstotzka pushes Moskurg back a section.
Arstotzka has secured a section of the plains.
The seas are no contest.
The Alsamma Safina is Very Expensive, and supplements Moskurg's Sirocco's which have already been reduced to glorified carpet-carriers. Arstotzka's HC1-E's don't have enough elevation or reach to shoot upwards, so once overhead the airship wins easily. Wands of Thunderbolts from both the airship and carpet riders cause critical boiler explosions that shatter Arstotzkan Crystalclads. On rare occasion the regenerative effect of the crystal is enough to keep the ship together without sinking, but without propulsion the ship is dead in the water and a non-threat. The longer staying ability of the War Pegasi is a huge boon, and the riders load up exclusively on Thunderbolt wands. They're able to perform seek-and-destroy missions against Arstotzkan ships, and after a year of one-sided combat Moskurg manages to secure a section of coastline on both the Eastern and Western shores.
Moskurg gains ground in the Eastern and Western Seas.
Research Credit!!!
Spoiler: Moskurg (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzka (click to show/hide)
Both sides see their new emblems emblazoned on their shields, flags, and heraldry.
Soldiers often have to paint the designs by hand, and with varying degrees of success. For Moskurg soldiers, there's a wide variety of simple half-blue half-yellow emblems with tornados, moons, stars, diamonds, and words - all with varying degrees of legibility. The blue-on-blue and yellow-on-yellow colorschemes often blend together or don't show up at all. Most tornados are drawn as squiggels, or just plain triangles. The emblems are often simplified to a half-blue half-yellow field with the words "For in God We Trust" written by a fellow soldier who can actually read and write.
For Arstotzkan soldiers, the plain red field with black and yellow is much easier to paint. Often simplified to a yellow star on a red background, the design is very difficult to mess up and very striking. The more talented soldiers flank their stars with black cannons or falcons, but only the company flags depict the fireball and name "ARSTOTZKA".
Ultimately, Arstotzkan soldiers come out with a more profound sense of pride, largely because their emblem actually uses their nations color. Arstotzka gains the Research Credit.
It is 938, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 938 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Behavior Rules. Please Read.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 06, 2017, 11:26:53 pm
...
Okay. So it turns out anti-air actually would have been pretty nice.
I think for our revision, we should do something with the train. It's a great platform for further development and could really help us. It looks like a big flaw was the tracks - we couldn't use the train in every theatre because of this.
Or, we can develop an armor piercing shell in the revision. Which I think would go nicely with the...
Design: AS-HAC-1
The AS-HAC-1, or the Hybrid Auto-Cannon, is a revolutionary new cannon designed.
The cannon itself has a much different design. Instead of a crew moving and firing a large cannon, it's mounted onto a portable "stand". A small set of levers and gears allow one person to very easily aim the cannon with 360 degrees of horizontal motion and almost 90 degrees of vertical motion facing upwards (as in, almost facing straight up). Meaning one person can easily aim the cannon within seconds, versus the crew, time, and effort needed to aim our larger cannons.
We've even included a "crosshair" in the design that one can focus their sight through, allowing them to quickly and easily check where the cannon is aiming.
The cannon fires a much smaller caliber of shell, and other parts are decreased in size. Combined together, these factors mean the cannon can propel a smaller shell to great distances (roughly the same of at least a HC1-E if not the HA1) at speeds higher than any of our previous cannons. The shells are easy to transport, carry and load.
Perhaps most importantly is the new method of loading. Previously, our soldiers had to load cannons through the ends of barrels by hand. Now, with the HAC-1, our Mathemagicians have implemented a new way of loading - breech loading. The HAC-1 includes a minor mechanism to securely open the back of the barrel, allowing for a new shell to be quickly inserted from the position the crew's already at instead of having to lower the barrel, move to it, and spend large amounts of time loading in a new shell. The new method is simply opening the chamber, pushing in a new shell for a few seconds then closing it. In order to allow the cannon to safely fire rapidly without overheating like the HA1, we've implemented very basic and minor cooling frost-based circuits in the barrel.
The rate of fire has been massively increased by this innovation.
The HAC-1 can be charged in three ways - by a nearby wizard, crystal conduit, or a Magegem. One AA Magegem is enough power for one shot. This means that with an adequate supply of Magegems or a connection to another power source, mundane soldiers can fire the HAC-1.
One person can completely operate a HAC-1, and an apprentice can easily and quickly charge a HAC-1 and multitask while doing it.
The entire thing is made out of
And perhaps one of the best parts is that the HAC-1 can shoot the enemy before they shoot us! Its range capabilities, accuracy, rate of fire, and easy-aiming make it a great choice to eliminate Moskurger riders before they can thunderbolt the cannon!
TL;DR: A breech-loading small "swivel" cannon that can be easily operated by one person and is extremely easy to aim and reload. Think the AA cannon (https://i.redditmedia.com/dheAEavYEIxe3oaXUjH0Tp8ScAX3DP3ySYQpP-ZNyQ0.jpg?w=1024&s=183a87d0af5f3eb0ff1936c4d63e21cf) from Battlefield 1, except breech-loaded instead of self-loading. Meant to be used for anti-air, anti-personnel, and general cannon things.
Also, a (regenerative) crystal construction makes it resistant against lightning and more forgiving towards misuse/overheating and much easier to repair, along with generally just being a better material.
I've isolated each aspect to be easier on Evicted and others. Many of them are very minor aspects, but still matter in the final design.
Swivel Mount
The actual cannon is small, but is mounted on a separate and portable stand. A simple set of gears allow the operator to quickly aim the cannon on the stand in nearly any direction, up and down. We have tons of experience with mechanical movement - a train, steam engines, the Crystaclad, and more; this should be extremely basic.
Breech-Loading
The cannon is breech-loaded, extremely increasing its rate of fire. In order to prevent an overheating problem, some very simple cooling frost-based circuits line the barrel. We've been using our cannons for a very long time and have extreme amounts of practical experience with them; breech-loading shouldn't be hard at all.
Aiming
In addition to the swivel mount and gears to quickly aim the cannon, it also has a crosshair for quick target acquisition. With every factor combined, the HAC-1 should be extremely easy and quick to aim then fire. Our extensive ballistics knowledge (such as that displayed in the making of the HC1-E, which we have tons of theoretical and practical experience with) should make a basic crosshair an extraordinarily simple task.
Caliber
The shells are much smaller than our current shells, and can be very easily transported and loaded. They also have a greater velocity (and thus greater armor-piercing capabilities?). But a large amount of the power "gained" from downgrading the shells is "spent" in making the cannon smaller.
The smaller shells should be easier to transport and store.
Size
The cannon is very small and very portable compared to a HC1-E. Roughly the size of a minigun or the picture I linked in the TL;DR. It should be able to be carried by one person, but it'd require both hands, a notable amount of strength, and wouldn't be entirely pleasant. It's hopefully half-as-heavy as a HC1-E. (However, Myark has expressed interest in attempting to use an AS-HAC-1 while holding it. Many doubt this is possible, but he is Myark.)
The decrease in size shouldn't really affect the range/etc. because of the caliber change. Smaller caliber with smaller size should give you a similar range, no? If anything, the range should be increased (not enough for another level in range though).
Material
The cannon is made using crystal. With Regenerative Crystal, the cannon's material is the most robust possible. Whereas damage from overheating and the like from metal requires dedicated repairing inside the barrel, the crystal will regenerate. The crystal is cheap thanks to the Crystalworks, too. Crystal is nonconductive (right?) so lightning strikes shouldn't effect it, and any damage should be repaired quickly. In addition to all this, Crystal is just more durable and hard than steel, making the cannon overall more durable. And it's lighter, too, allowing for easy transport on ships, trains, and people.
Operation/Charging
Using 1 AA-Magegem (optional if it increases overall expense) gives enough charge to fire one shell. The cannon can also be connected to an external power supply. So with another power supply or adequate magegems, mundane soldiers can easily use this. Apprentices can also easily charge it and even multi-task while doing so.
One person can completely operate the cannon - aiming, firing, loading, etc. - as long as the magical element is taken care of somehow. So if the AS-HAC-1 is set up and has a supply of magegems, any soldier can operate it as long as they have enough Magegems, or any apprentice can operate it as long as they have enough shells. Which are easy to transport and store thanks to their size.
Distribution/Expense
In addition to being distributed in the regular places, hopefully each Crystalclad can be fitted with a HAC-1.
The HC1-E, which the AS-HAC-1 is based on, is Cheap. The AS-HAC-1 downsizes the HC1-E, reducing material costs. The improvements it has, such as the swivel mount and breech-loading, shouldn't add any amount of complexity notable enough to increase Expense. And the AS-HAC-1 benefits from our Crystalworks bonus. If anything, the AS-HAC-1 should be Cheap.
Uses
The cannon should be very effective at taking down Moskurger air units in addition with the flare, as it has a much higher RoF, and smaller caliber means less drop/higher velocity. It can also be great for anti-personnel thanks to its ease of aiming, as troops on a fortification can use this vaguely like a MG emplacement against incoming soldiers. Other than that, it's still a cannon and can be used as one; it's just not as great at siege-like stuff. It can also be used on the offense thanks to its large degree of portability.
It can shoot Moskurger carpets before they use lightning, thanks to how easy the HAC-1 is to aim and reload as well as its range. It should be partially effective against a Moskurger airship (thanks to its high rate of fire) but would probably require better shells for that.
Yeah, sure, name's a bit misleading, but I'm gearing it for version 2 which is an actual auto cannon. It also serves as a precursor to the longshot rod, as it's much smaller, Magegem-compatible, breech-loaded, has a smaller caliber, and more. I'd be willing to vote for this one if others are too.
(Copy+pasted from post last design phase)
The AS-HAC-1 paired with an AP shell would be great. It'd be effective against carpets, and with the AP shell, extremely effective against their airship. And this isn't even including the use on land.
No research credit use here, though. It's not that ambitious - just a lot of minor new things and tweaks. We should save the research credit for something else I think.
Other notes:
1.) We need a counter for their lightning stuff.
2.) We need better overall protection - our HA1s, HC1-Es, STV-1 (Restless), and Crystalclad are all suffering from a lack of protection. With the Crystalclad and Restless, they can just lightning the engines for MASSIVE DAMAGE and to eliminate moving ability. With the HA1s and HC1-Es, they can still damage the cannon and firebomb the crew. A crystal enclosure (or just a tank - the Restless should allow for this) would help a lot here. For the Crystalclad and Restless, just revising it (or including in a new design) to protect the weak spots should be enough.
Quote
DESIGNS
1 - AS-HAC-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7477548#msg7477548): Chiefwaffles
Post by: RAM on June 06, 2017, 11:31:24 pm
This is a long rod of hard metal embedded in a ribbed crystal sheath that maginifies whatever you like to watch. When a magam(or a magic finger) is pressed into its special slot then looking into it reveals all as though exposed to an unsullied noon.
It works as the flowing light disperses throughout its crystal lenses. When magic stimulates a circuit then there is a revealing effect as the essence of light(as distilled to created flare spells) impregnates the passing vision with pure illumination. The ribbed crystal coating provides a satisfying sense of friction under a grip and keeps it rigid and straight.
Helps us with night raids and spotting.
Erection of Everywhere Explosions
A Tower of frost tuned to an explosive variant of the streamlined fireball that sacrifices all of the heat of the fireball to maximuse the force that spreads it around. This crystalline tower includes a lightning rod and a covered plafrom which acts as the focal point of its magical energy. This allows a skilled wizard to wield a massive volume of balls that travel a fixed distance and then explode into a burst of force, flinging anything nearby around, and easily crushing anyone who is near to the centre and toppling any flying vehicles. Also features a lightning rod.
There are a lot of tweaks here, but it should all be familiar ground, and should make for a defensive intallation that can capsize anything that they put in the air. The trick after that would be to put it onto a boat...
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 06, 2017, 11:33:55 pm
What I really want though are fireball rods for our basic troops. You see how effective the lighting rods are, and we can make ones any soldier can use with multiple shots and accurate.
Please, I know you guys did not like my design, but if we can get something shooting fire up at the enemy ships and down at the enemy troops I will be happy.
We really do not need new artillery, but a spell to better defend them. Crystal plating, fireball weapons, giant falcons, whatever.
Also we lost control of the mountain metal resource.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 06, 2017, 11:40:40 pm
Why not make the steam engines mostly internal for the ships, with any external mounts like intake valves and exhaust ports made out of crystal? Then drop extra armor.Our ships still won't be completely invulnerable to air. A crystalclad's weapons and crew can be easily killed by air units. This is a good idea at some point, though. Just not now.
What I really want though are fireball rods for our basic troops. You see how effective the lighting rods are, and we can make ones any soldier can use with multiple shots and accurate.Their ships have armor that stop our cannon shells and is nonflammable. I don't think a lesser version of a fireball will help here.
Please, I know you guys did not like my design, but if we can get something shooting fire up at the enemy ships and down at the enemy troops I will be happy.See above.
We really do not need new artillery, but a spell to better defend them. Crystal plating, fireball weapons, giant falcons, whatever.The HAC-1 shouldn't really be classified as artillery. And better defense is useless at the moment because there will never be a perfect defense and right now their airships will still be able to punch through better defense. In this case, offense is the best defense. If we destroy their air units before they get into attack range, we don't need to worry about that kind of stuff.
Post by: RAM on June 06, 2017, 11:50:17 pm
We finally use circuitry to invert our reverse-engineering of the fireball wand, with many changes. This takes the high efficiency of the streamlined fireball spell and converts it into a continuous beam of pure heat, with none of the explosive force. With this overall reduced area ofeffect and explosive force we extend its duration and velocity, allowing about 10 seconds of continuous fire. The weapon is in the forme of a bronze gauntlet with a crystal coating and the beam is ejected from the circuit's focal points, which runs between two bronze rings, again coated in crystal, that rise from the back of the gauntlet. The beam is generated from pressing an exposed circuit panel on the ring-finger against an exposed panel of a magam in a horizontal slot near the centre of the palm. This allows the wielder to hold a fist at the enemy, line up the two rings, and then press lightly to project a beam of intense heat with which to burn their victims. Particularly skilled uses can attempt to converge their beams to melt even the most resistant of targets.
Post by: RAM on June 06, 2017, 11:53:34 pm
Quote from: Designs
1 - (Chiefwaffles)AS-HAC-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7477548#msg7477548): Chiefwaffles
0 - (RAM)Phalling Glow (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7477551#msg7477551):
0 - (RAM)Erection of Everywhere Explosions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7477551#msg7477551):
0 - (RAM)Heat Rays (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7477562#msg7477562):
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 06, 2017, 11:59:05 pm
Arstotzka, meanwhile, has rolled out a cheaper version of their Tower of Frost, plunging the theatre into yet another level of cold. It snows year-round now, and it's not uncommon to see Moskurg soldiers freezing to death - it doesn't help that their Adamantium armor (as Adamantium is now Cheap) is fixed at a constant chill temperature and provides no protection. Furthermore, their Equalizer Anti-Magic artillery shells are now merely Very Expensive. That's fine, though, as they only need to litter Moskurg positions with a few shells before the effect becomes noticeable. Near-misses require Moskurg to relocate their artillery, as the shells themselves are buried too deep in the ground to be moved. This, combined with the fact that they have the range advantage, means they dominate in artillery combat.While I don't think that by itself, Heat Rays is a bad idea, but that phrase is very suspicious. I'd assume that "fixed at a constant chill temperature" means melting it would be really hard or else the word "fixed" wouldn't be used. If we can't reliably melt their armor, then a heat ray probably wouldn't be the best idea.
Also, Evicted, Andres asked this recently but I don't think you saw. Is the Restless getting the Crystalworks bonus? Its expense roll was "3" and it's made out of machine crystal, so one would assume the original expense is Very Expensive and brought down to Expensive by the Crystalworks.
And @VoidSlayer again:
I thought of an analogy for what I was trying to say in my last post.
Let's say you're in a bunker being assaulted by enemy forces. Your bunker isn't that great but none of your weapons really work against the enemy. They kill you pretty easily.
So what if you upgrade your bunker, focusing on defense? You'd survive a bit longer because your bunker is harder to penetrate, but in the end you'd still die because your weapons are still effectively useless.
But what if you upgrade your weapons? Then you'd be able to kill the enemies before they can start assaulting the bunker, giving you a chance at survival.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 07, 2017, 12:01:34 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 07, 2017, 12:03:40 am
I find it annoying, but it is your call so I'll drop it. I still don't think it's right though
Post by: RAM on June 07, 2017, 12:06:35 am
Post by: evictedSaint on June 07, 2017, 12:29:08 am
I request a review if their material is completely immune to temperature changes. That sounds overpowered, at least as something that doesn't constantly consume large amounts of magic and can be overtaxed by applying a greater force to overcome it. It sounds very much like our own towers of forever frost that can be defeated by blowing hot air at them.
Alright. I will take this into consideration, and come to a decision in the next day or so.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 07, 2017, 12:46:55 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 07, 2017, 01:07:18 am
Anyways, let me just make a smaller general case for the AS-HAC-1 since the design post is a bit bloated.
Right now, our main advantage - artillery and cannons - is being significantly hurt by their air game. It's making us lose in two theatres and getting dangerously close to us losing in the other theatres. This is happening because of two reasons:
1.) They have more carpets, and that combined with their wands means our falcons are of little effectiveness because the number of carpets combined with their weapons make eliminating our falcons easy.
2.) They have an armored air vehicle, that falcons seem to not be useful against, and can really only be taken out by luck or HA1 shots at very certain and opportune moments that don't often happen.
So, what are some possible solutions?
1.) We can decrease the expense of falcons in a revision. This makes them more effective against carpets but even then, their carpets will still be a notable player and advantage for them. That, and in their current state, I doubt cheaper falcons could do anything against an airship.
2.) We can make our falcons better. Then they'd maybe be able to take on their airships. But their still-limited number would mean that carpets would still be fairly protected against falcons.
3.) We can do both of the above in a design. Sure, it may work but seems wasteful for a design, especially considering...
4.) We can make the AS-HAC-1 (or some similar design). The AS-HAC-1 (with AP shells or combined firepower can shoot down their airships, can shoot down carpets, and has other improvements compared to our cannons making it still useful in non-AA situations.
"But Chief," some may say, "They can still blow up our cannons and trains and crystalclads!"
Not if we shoot them down first. The AS-HAC-1 should still have considerable range and should be able to shoot down their carpets and airships before they get within lightning range. They can be put on every Crystalclad and used amongst our ground forces to defend critical sites/things from air attack (as well as being of use as a cannon with high RoF!) and can be used on the offense/move unlike any of our other cannons because of its portability.
"That sounds like a lot of stuff. Isn't this overambitious, Chief?" another may say. Well, I've covered this pretty extensively in the actual design post and have categorized every part. The AS-HAC-1 includes two main improvements:
1.) Breech-loading. The most ambitious part, and therefore the centerpiece of the design. It could almost definitely be fit in a revision and is about moderate difficulty, I'd say.
2.) Firing angles/swivel-aiming. This is pretty easy. We have a ton of experience with mechanical movement. We've made trains and steam boats; we can easily make some basic mechanisms to allow the AS-HAC-1 to be aimed in any direction.
The rest are tweaks.
The crosshair is pretty simple and pretty much just comes with the improvements in aiming/firing angles. It's a simple object that can be attached onto a part of the cannon. Considering our knowledge of ballistics and that kind of thing, making a basic sight for the AS-HAC-1 should be easy.
The caliber is a downscale. If something could have negative difficulty, this would be it. We're just decreasing the caliber of the cannon. The decrease in size means easier-to-transport shells (with or without a train), faster projectile speed (useful for anti-air!) and increased range.
The smaller construction is another easy tweak. It takes advantage of the decrease in caliber size in order to get the same range/power with a smaller construction. Also, we've been using our cannons for a while now. Making one smaller without a caliber change should be pretty easy, but this is easier and helps with the overall design goal.
The magegem operation is simple. We know how to use magegems. We just throw a magegem into the design.
Regarding the research credit: I think we should save it for a more ambitious/critical design. LIKE A TANK EHEHEHEHEHE.
Post by: RAM on June 07, 2017, 03:28:45 am
: Air angles: we need to be able to shoot at high angles to hit the enemy. You have this but it is not mentioned in your bullet-points or T.L.D.R. that I can find, which could cause it to be missed. but it is there which is good.
: Air coverage: single rounds do not do so much to a swarm of carpets or a ship that is kept aloft by numerous carpets and can probably survive losing a few. The latte r is less of an issue but some sort of air-burst proximity rounds or scatter-shot would be extremely helpful.
: Penetration: Their new ships are very scary, they can probably increase the armour without too much trouble, just by improving the efficiency of their carpets or adding shaped armour. Your design has smaller shots which could prove incapable of piercing the current generation of shyships, far less improved versions.
It is nice, don't get me wrong, but I worry that it misses some of the more important elements that would need to be addressed in a revision or two.
@Evicted: If you do think it's OP but don't want to completely remove it, maybe make the perma-chill effect removable by anti-magic? I don't particularly care about it since it's not like it protects its user/whatever from temperature changes, but it's an idea.I believe that it should be better than perfect insulation. Perfect insulation will tend to cook people as they produce heat. Given that it cannot change temperature, it stands to reason that it cannot allow temperature through it, there is no mechanisms for thermal energy to penetrate without radiating by heating the surface or using infrared radiation. Certainly, people need to breath, ia suit of armour would have some weaknesses, but they could run it through a filter system to remove most of that by having grids of cool metal that the air would have to pass through. It would also mean that if we developed a shatter-shield that rapidly alternated objects between extreme hot and cold using the tower of forever frost's effect that projectiles made from this stuff would be not merely resistant, but completely immune. The same applies to a heat0shield that would vaporise incoming projectiles. And they could have completely sealed A.P.C.s that would be immune to fireballs until they opened them. It is just extremely scary to see things like "their antimagic completely erases all of your starting spells and everything derived from them" and "Their new metal is completely immune to your starting wand, and everything derived from it.".
another possiblechange is that it cannot absorb or radiate heat. So at least a filter would be useless, the heat still goes somewhere so it may not be able to penetrate but the surroundings become hot all the same. Still scary but not universal air conditioning scary.
But this does demonstrate that we should branch out a little. I would very much like to reiterate that my tower, amongst a long list of very greedy wants, makes a fireball with all of the bal and none of the fire. This would not care about temperature immunity. But I expect them to make virbranium next so there is that...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 07, 2017, 03:41:50 am
Much of the effect of a cannon is its hitting things. I could easily see a near-miss knocking someone around due to air-flow, but it is nothing compared to having a shell hit the ground in front of you. I think that the most important aspects of the cannon right now areAir Angles: I'm pretty sure it's already clear. It's a part of the "Swivel Mount" summary section and should be pretty obvious throughout the design. But yeah, its angles are (like I said) one of its most important aspects.
: Air angles: we need to be able to shoot at high angles to hit the enemy. You have this but it is not mentioned in your bullet-points or T.L.D.R. that I can find, which could cause it to be missed. but it is there which is good.
: Air coverage: single rounds do not do so much to a swarm of carpets or a ship that is kept aloft by numerous carpets and can probably survive losing a few. The latte r is less of an issue but some sort of air-burst proximity rounds or scatter-shot would be extremely helpful.
: Penetration: Their new ships are very scary, they can probably increase the armour without too much trouble, just by improving the efficiency of their carpets or adding shaped armour. Your design has smaller shots which could prove incapable of piercing the current generation of shyships, far less improved versions.
Air coverage: The current idea is that the AS-HAC-1 has a drastically improved RoF, and that combined with the easy aiming makes it able to effectively snipe carpets out of the sky. Missed shots matter less when you're able to reload a lot faster, after all. I do want to do flak shells and the like, but that's out of focus for this design.
Penetration: Well, this is why I mention the part about revising AP shells a lot when talking about the AS-HAC-1 and airships. But we know from experience that our HC1-E shots can pierce their armor at the right angles and whatnot, and the airship probably has less armor. That and smaller shot = higher speed + less penetration area. The super-improved rate of fire combined with this should make it somewhat effective against airships, but I still think we should revise AP shells regardless.
I believe that it should be better than perfect insulation. Perfect insulation will tend to cook people as they produce heat. Given that it cannot change temperature, it stands to reason that it cannot allow temperature through it, there is no mechanisms for thermal energy to penetrate without radiating by heating the surface or using infrared radiation. Certainly, people need to breath, ia suit of armour would have some weaknesses, but they could run it through a filter system to remove most of that by having grids of cool metal that the air would have to pass through. It would also mean that if we developed a shatter-shield that rapidly alternated objects between extreme hot and cold using the tower of forever frost's effect that projectiles made from this stuff would be not merely resistant, but completely immune. The same applies to a heat0shield that would vaporise incoming projectiles. And they could have completely sealed A.P.C.s that would be immune to fireballs until they opened them. It is just extremely scary to see things like "their antimagic completely erases all of your starting spells and everything derived from them" and "Their new metal is completely immune to your starting wand, and everything derived from it.".This seems to just be your dislike of their metal's properties, which is fine, but I would like to point out that if their armor did indeed block all temperature changes through it that'd be one of the biggest nerfs ever to our stuff. It would make our towers of frost useless and our fireballs much less effective when all they need is a new design/revision to fix that problem.
I've made a new APC design based on what we learned from our little "theoretical experiment" last design and experience from the STV-1 Restless. I'm assuming that the Restless miniaturized the steam engine as that was explicitly stated to be a very high priority goal of the design.
I still prefer the AS-HAC-1, but this is something to consider. We need our own game changer.
(Future?) Design: AS-APC-1 "Guardian"
The Guardian is a natural evolution of the AS-STV-1 Restless. We've realized that our troops could be carried to the front lines in a matter similar to the Restless, but without needing rails and protected.
So thanks to our experience in land vehicles, we can now invest into a solution to get our troops to the front lines.
The design is, in a way, a combination of the engine and personnel wagons for the Restless. The Guardian has a hull made out of Crystal thick enough to deflect ballistae shots, lightning, and fire bombs. 10 troops can """comfortably""" sit inside in full combat gear, on """comfortable""" seats lining the walls facing the Guardian's steam engine that goes along the center of the vehicle's inside. The steam engine is developed to be a bit smaller than the Restless' steam engine, which is already our smallest yet. Extensive cooling circuits have been added to the steam engine, in addition to already-present cooling methods, to keep it and the cabin from overheating. Small ports are located on the front and are designed specifically to keep any Moskurger projectile, no matter how lucky, from entering the cabin. A driver's seat is placed near the port along with basic controls.
The steam engine controls two "caterpillar tracks" that use wheels to move connected strings of smaller crystal plates which contact the ground. These tracks are capable of allowing the APC great movement over any terrain. Any wear and tear on the tracks is solved by our crystal's regenerative abilities. The driver has control over each side's set of wheels - back and forward for each side. Combined, these controls allow them to completely steer the Guardian.
The Guardian is powered by a battery of AA magegems. Thanks to the continuous nature of the steam engine meaning it can mostly rely on non-energy-intensive circuits and the like, the Guardian is fairly energy efficient. A full battery should be enough to last for three hours completely independent from a wizard. Generally, it's advised that an apprentice accompanies a Guardian, but they can operate fine without one.
The result is a formidable vehicle that allows our troops to safely cross no man's land and ballistae-defended areas without harm. It can move over just about any terrain, holds 10 troops and completely protects them from any possible threats. Lightning has no exposed weak spots and no metal to damage. The crystal is nonflammable and any kind of oil just sits on top of the crystal hull, harmless; in fact, a Guardian on fire tends to be rather intimidating. Moskurger spells are useless against it, and arrows bounce harmlessly off the hull without so much as a scratch!
The vehicle is based heavily off of our experience with the Restless, and thus shouldn't be too difficult to design.
--
I think an APC is necessary before we start developing things like steam rifles. Sure, steam/magic rifles could be useful as snipers, but we should make sure they can be fully useful before spending a design on them. At the moment, our troops are barely, if at all, getting to the front lines. We need to fix that before we start developing things for close combat, I feel.
But this design should not be done this turn. For one, sea combat is important and this would be useless there. It'd be useful on land, but leaves their air advantage uncountered (and closer to completely nullifying our artillery advantage).
Also, we should really revise our steam engines to be more powerful at some point.
It'll increase the speed of our Crystalclad (outrunning airships?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!), increase the speed and capability (higher inclines) of the Restless, and make this APC faster.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 07, 2017, 10:02:55 am
Magic Draining Ray: We've developed a staff-like contraption that absorbs large amounts of magic from something at a distance, and uses the magic to charge Magegems. Using this, we can knock their sky ships out of the sky. I mean, they clearly don't have much margin of error here.
Web Grapple: We've developed a spell that fires a very long cord of web at a target, then after impact, retracts the cord. Using these, we can pull the enemy ships out of the sky.
Stupid Idea: Hang Gliders: We figure it's about time we get some flying of our own. Using conjured spider silk, conjured in a manner that it won't dissipate(we've learned that from our Crystalworks), we can create a lightweight "glider". From high altitudes, our men can use one of these gliders, leaping off from the high altitude, and fly towards and board the enemy flying ships.
Post by: Kadzar on June 07, 2017, 02:28:24 pm
Nice job with the emblem, Kadzar!As an Arstotzkan, I only did what my country required of me, inspired as I was by true patriotism. ((But thank you!))
Anyway, the way I see it, anti-air guns will eventually only be able to shoot up so high, and will only ever have defensive capabilities. What we really need is an airforce of our own.
Design: Giant Mutant Bird Cavalry
For a while now, Arstotzkan researchers have recognized a need to counter Moskurg's flying force, and ultimately decided they needed to beat fliers with fliers. So, using their knowledge of life magic, they devised an alchemical brew to make birds big enough to carry a man, and, with their experience mind-controlling birds, were easily able to make them into perfect flying mounts. In doing so, they could finally join battle with Moskurgs in the skies.
Alternatively, if it helps, I could make the riders all-female and call them Valkyries.
Quote from: Designs1 - (Chiefwaffles)AS-HAC-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7477548#msg7477548): Chiefwaffles
0 - (RAM)Phalling Glow (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7477551#msg7477551):
0 - (RAM)Erection of Everywhere Explosions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7477551#msg7477551):
0 - (RAM)Heat Rays (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7477562#msg7477562):
1 - (Kadzar) Giant Mutant Bird Cavalry (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7478147#msg7478147): Kadzar
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 07, 2017, 02:30:58 pm
For our revision, some sort of fog thing, I think. Or maybe a Restless upgrade. Or maybe a more efficient, less prone to failure, and more powerful steam engine.
Actually, we really need to protect our steam engines. So maybe we should make lightning resistant crystal. Seriously, we should do that for our revision.
Quote from: Designs
1 - (Chiefwaffles)AS-HAC-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7477548#msg7477548): Chiefwaffles
0 - (RAM)Phalling Glow (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7477551#msg7477551):
0 - (RAM)Erection of Everywhere Explosions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7477551#msg7477551):
0 - (RAM)Heat Rays (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7477562#msg7477562):
2 - (Kadzar) Giant Mutant Bird Cavalry (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7478147#msg7478147): Kadzar, FallacyofUrist
Post by: RAM on June 07, 2017, 02:43:10 pm
Alternatively, if it helps, I could make the riders all-female and call them Valkyries.That would help a lot.
A possible retaliation for temperature-immune metal.
Woogem
Wood has a great capacity to spread forces along its grain. Crystal has a great capacity to resist deformation. By imbuing a seed with a crystalline magic we caused it to grow into a combination of the two. The result is a crystalline structure that prevents the wood from breaking, and a grain that prevents the crystal from storing enough impact force to be broken. The effect of this is that all inertia that would cause this material to break is instead directed along the grain and into the air where the grain terminates. In this way we have produced a material that remains at a convenient inertia regardless of the forces that are applied to it.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 07, 2017, 03:00:45 pm
A muscly looking apprentice trainee stepped forward, grabbed the wood chunk, and pulled and pushed, to no avail.
"The Woodgem is a magical structure that is completely immune to kinetic energy. Sadly, this means we can't move it. Its only real use is as a wall, though some of our mage scientists are considering using it to stop kickback in artillery via conjuring it in the battlefield. Class dismissed!"
Post by: Kadzar on June 07, 2017, 03:15:04 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: RAM on June 07, 2017, 03:46:26 pm
"Today, class, we will demonstrate the power of magic. Observe this chunk of crystalline wood. Wood anybody among you care to try to move it?"I did think of this. It only repels forces that would break it. Forces under that threshold can be applied. The cannonball that hits it still pushes it back, but only up to the point at which it would break, which is well within what a soldier can withstand. It does make them somewhat unsuitable for shield-bashing though.
A muscly looking apprentice trainee stepped forward, grabbed the wood chunk, and pulled and pushed, to no avail.
"The Woodgem is a magical structure that is completely immune to kinetic energy. Sadly, this means we can't move it. Its only real use is as a wall, though some of our mage scientists are considering using it to stop kickback in artillery via conjuring it in the battlefield. Class dismissed!"
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 07, 2017, 05:01:29 pm
It miniaturizes the steam cannon by a large degree so we can much more easily make a steam rifle. It also introduces breech-loading, a concept very useful for steam rifles.
Also please for the love of god do NOT do the Valkyrie thing.
Post by: Kadzar on June 07, 2017, 05:18:16 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 07, 2017, 05:43:39 pm
Bird Cavalry is, first and foremost, somewhat overambitious in my opinion. While I still maintain that increasing the size of birds is something that could be done in a revision, here we're increasing the size and weight capacity of birds by massive amounts without any experience at all in size changing. At all. The revision to increase the size of our Falcons was minor, and a design doing the same could definitely do more, but to the point where a bird can carry riders? That is a huge size increase and we haven't done anything about size ever. Sure, we have enough tangential experience we could do some minor size-related thing, but something of this magnitude seems iffy.
This probably won't carry penalties, but I don't have too much confidence in it getting its intended results in a non-amazing roll.
Next, is potential for future improvement.
The AS-HAC-1 miniaturizes the steam cannon, operates on magegems, and introduces breech-loading. Like I said before, these two developments are crucial for a steam rifle. We'd likely be able to design a breech-loading rifle (not a musket) in a single design after the AS-HAC-1.
In addition to that, the AS-HAC-1 provides a perfect choice for vehicle weaponry if we ever decide to do that. If we want to make a tank, none of our current weapons work. You don't want a muzzle-loading tank cannon. The size also helps make it useful for a wide variety of things, not just dedicated vehicle platforms.
Hell, if we ever do bird cavalry in the future, the HAC-1 could significantly help towards equipping that bird with weaponry.
Bird Cavalry isn't really a dead-end, but it has less potential than the AS-HAC-1 in my opinion. Bird Cavalry requires significant investment to do more things (like additional riders or dedicated weapons) on, and we'd still need a weapon like the AS-HAC-1 for the things I mentioned before about the AS-HAC-1's uses.
And finally, effectiveness.
The AS-HAC-1 is based off of the HC1-E, a cheap cannon. And it miniaturizes it! And it has a resource bonus! Best-case scenario, it'll be Cheap, but otherwise it'll very likely by Expensive. Both expense levels are great and mean we can deploy the AS-HAC-1 everywhere to protect our soldiers, artilleries, boats, and more from air attacks, as well as use it on the offense.
Bird Cavalry is very likely going to be Very Expensive. Our regular-sized Falcons, just from the mind spell, are Very Expensive. Massively increasing the size of a bird to support a rider isn't exactly a cheapening move. That, and Bird Cavalry does not get any material bonuses like the AS-HAC-1. At Very Expensive, we'll have one bird for every airship. Their airships are filled with mages and ballistae, a counter to bird cavalry. So we'll have one bird for every airship, and an airship would likely be able to easily defeat a bird one-on-one. That, and we won't have enough birds to defend our stuff - our ships will still be harassed by their Expensive carpets, and so will our artillery and land forces.
I want to do bird cavalry at some point (maybe even with the AS-HAC-1 if we do that!) but I don't think it's the right option at the moment.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 07, 2017, 05:57:40 pm
Secondly... yeah, cool stuff. There is plenty of room for improvement with bird cavalry, however.
Thirdly, more importantly... well, for one, our resource bonus isn't usable right now(BAD! must recapture mountains!). However, I'm more worried that your gun won't have enough power to shoot the enemies out of the sky. Maybe if we had exploding shells that we could already apply to it, but we don't. The only special shell we have is the Equalizer(which is awesome, though), and it only works for our HA1.
I'm not entirely sure that it'll be one bird for every airship. Isn't pricing more of a relative thing or something?
Of course, we can use antimagic to protect against Lucky Strike.
I guess what I'm most worried about is the stopping power of the AS-HAC-1. I don't think it's likely to hit the War Pegasi, and I'm not sure if it'll put down the flying ships. Create an anti-air weapon that actually does that, and I'll be much more likely to vote for it.
In the meantime, though, Giant Bird Cavalry, then for a revision, something to let our mages cast through our own anti-magic so they can ride the falcons and shell Moskurg with our Cheap(yes, seriously) squad-destroying fireballs. Maybe an improved Fireball Wand that works in antimagic and can be used by non-mages. Or only one of those things for safety.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 07, 2017, 06:07:37 pm
Resource bonus - Uh. Crystalworks. It's basically an artificial resource bonus for Crystal. Which the AS-HAC-1 uses.
AS-HAC-1 Power - Our HC1-Es and HA1s are quite clearly very powerful. This is just a downgrade of the caliber while retaining speed. It'll have less destructive capability, but the shell is still notably bigger than a bullet. It'll have a bit higher velocity. This means it should be very effective at taking down the completely unarmored carpets, and with an AP shell revision (which helps the Crystalclads a ton, and helps a ton for the future when they inevitably introduce more armor on their stuff), it'd be very effective at taking down airships.
Ah, yes, lucky strike, I forgot about that. Our birds will be shot out of the sky easily, and we've know for quite a while that our antimagic does not stop lucky strike. Our bird cavalry will be effortlessly shot out of the sky by their superaccurate ballistae and bows, both from airships and from the ground.
In Wands Race, Very Expensive has always been a "You have a few of these things." It's not just "limited distribution" but rather you just have a handful of that design and thus give it to the most important people. So we'll get >10 birds and they'll get >10 airships. Probably - numbers aren't exact. But just check the descriptions Evicted gives related to expense for any design. It's the same thing.
Stopping power - Again. The AS-HAC-1 is still a cannon. It shoots a shell with a high velocity. It's a cannon. It just won't be as effective as a siege weapon, which we don't need at all anyways. It's designed specifically as an AA gun. It has a drastically higher rate of fire, meaning it cares much less about missed shots and can fill the sky with shells much faster. It has firing angles allowing it to fire directly up into the sky and all around it, making it very useful for targeting flying enemies. It's extremely easy to aim - easy to swivel it around and easy to find a target. Therefore, it's much more likely to hit air targets than any weapon we've had before.
Revising a method to let our mages cast through our own antimagic seems extremely overambitious.
Post by: RAM on June 07, 2017, 06:10:56 pm
Also, valkyries are the opposite of medics. They make people more dead, unless you get into the whole "people revive in Valhalla" thing but that is really pushing it. They also need lightning
Stopping power - Again. The AS-HAC-1 is still a cannon.Cannonballs can bounce off of wood. The Keggers are using super-metal...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 07, 2017, 06:15:10 pm
Our cannons are far superior to ye olde cannons that people seem to think we use.
Moskurg is using their metal on only the airship. And it's been established that a HC1-E's shells can still pierce the armor on one of their armored ships. It just takes a while. Our shells do not bounce off of wood. And the majority of our problems with their air units is their Expensive upgraded carpets, which again, don't have any armor.
And again, AP (armor-piercing shells. It's a good idea regardless of the AS-HAC-1. It'd help significantly at sea, since right now the standard shell takes multiple tries to pierce their armor.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 07, 2017, 06:17:40 pm
Okay, power. Now there's a tiny(relative to the whole thing) hole in the flying ship. If it penetrates the adamantium armor with its limited caliber, anyway. When it comes to shooting down War Pegasi... basically, our accuracy for small targets isn't all that good. If we had some sort of shotgun shell...
Maybe, maybe we'll be able to shoot fast enough to take down their ships with death by a thousand cuts and shoot the Pegasi out of the air with sheer luck. I'm not sure if we would shoot that fast with this design, however.
Okay, maybe we'll have a price issue. If that happens, we can use a revision for better production. I would prefer to do electricity resilient crystal, but we need what we need.
Also, this handles the spotting issue we've been having. Extra bonus.
Two ninjas.
Moskurg is using their metal on only the airship.And you think your anti-air design with reduced power can pierce it when even our HC1-Es sometimes fail?
And again, AP (armor-piercing shells. It's a good idea regardless of the AS-HAC-1. It'd help significantly at sea, since right now the standard shell takes multiple tries to pierce their armor.Oh, definitely, Armor Piercing shells would be wonderful. Maybe make them out of crystal.
Post by: RAM on June 07, 2017, 06:25:06 pm
Oh, definitely, Armor Piercing shells would be wonderful. Maybe make them out of crystal.Crystal is light and brittle, that is kind of terrible for armour-piercing unless you are using some sort of squash-head weirdness or something.
And I worry that scattershot would be difficult to implement into the automatic firing mechanisms.
And rate-of-fire alone is nothing compared to scatter-shot. It is still the sort of thing that can be dodged if you see the gun aiming at you. You want to render a whole section of the sky uninhabitable for a brief period of time if you can, instead of increasing the rate at which you plink them off one by one.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 07, 2017, 06:26:51 pm
You managed to hit an airship once with an Equalizer shell. Much like the other HA1 artillery shells, once it penetrated the hull of the ship the entire thing came crashing down.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 07, 2017, 06:30:39 pm
Shooting pegasi out of the air "with sheer luck" - I honestly don't know what to say here. Their carpets obviously aren't going that fast or their riders would fall off. This cannon is easy to aim, easy to shoot, easy to reload. It'd be by far the best weapon in our arsenal to deal with this kind of stuff.
Price issue - "Maybe" is extremely generous. There will very probably be a price issue. May I remind you that we got a 3 in Expense on the Restless and that gave us National Effort? It was only our resource bonus that brought it down to Very Expensive. If a much-easier-to-make design is Very Expensive, then why will bird cavalry be anything below that?
Spotting issue - Still very inferior to the Crystal Spyglass.
Reduced power - AP SHELLS. You refer to AP shells directly below this line! I'm saying we use AP shells in conjunction with the AS-HAC-1! But even without AP shells, it should still be useful. It'll be unlikely to pierce armor, yes. More-so than the HC1-E, yes. But ultimately, the speed of a projectile matters more than the mass of the projectile. The AS-HAC-1 should be firing them with improved speed. So it shouldn't be that much, if at all, worse than the HC1-E. The AS-HAC-1 has reduced power, but less mass to shoot and thus shoots with comparable/improved speed.
Crystal is light and brittle, that is kind of terrible for armour-piercing unless you are using some sort of squash-head weirdness or something.I say a crystal tip on an otherwise metal shell, along with some other structural tweaks to the shell. It's been well established that our crystal is significantly sharp and that helps us a lot, even against their soldiers' supermetal armor.
And I worry that scattershot would be difficult to implement into the automatic firing mechanisms.A flak shell is the best idea here, and the AS-HAC-1 is just breech-loaded, but if it is done, I want to do an self-feeding AS-HAC-2 at some point.
And rate-of-fire alone is nothing compared to scatter-shot. It is still the sort of thing that can be dodged if you see the gun aiming at you. You want to render a whole section of the sky uninhabitable for a brief period of time if you can, instead of increasing the rate at which you plink them off one by one.Yeah, but we just can't make a scattershot here. It's out of the scope of the design. And Evicted is unusually restrictive with shells, and we'd almost definitely have to spend its own design for a scatter-shot/flak shell. And without an AS-HAC-1, a flak/scatter-shot shell wouldn't be useful as we wouldn't be able to actually shoot it at their air units.
I like the idea of an anti-air shell, I just don't think there's any way we can do that this turn. Perhaps we could do an explosive shell next turn's design then revise a flak variant of it?
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 07, 2017, 06:38:20 pm
How do you suggest making an AP shell?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 07, 2017, 06:48:02 pm
So crystal may not be the best idea as a tip in an AP shell. Wikipedia article suggests that typically AP shells use low hardness but high toughness in tips, which is basically the opposite of crystal, no?
I mean, we could still probably use it thanks to regenerative crystal and the fact that it's still notably tough and just handwaving, but still.
Feel free to suggest a better AP shell revision.
Future(ish) Revision: AP Shell
(I'm tired of the weird SOx-yy designation I've been using for shells.)
The AP shell is simple. It's a culmination of multiple tweaks to the materials used and structure of a shell. No breakthrough was made here - just conclusions (and their implementations) by our Mathemagicians on what material and shapes are best.
We change the structure of our current shell to encounter less resistance on its trajectory - something our Mathemagicians are calling "aerodynamics". In addition to this, we replace the inside of the shell with crystal, and toughen up the steel tip to avoid shattering on contact. The result is straightforward as well - the shell strikes harder thanks to its improved speed, from both aerodynamics and lightness, and the toughened steel tip means the shell doesn't shatter on impact, and more energy is "given" to piercing the armor.
The AP shell should be able to effectively pierce Moskurg's armor. The shell is meant to come in two sizes: One for the HC1-E, and one for the AS-HAC-1. Though if we can only do one size, the AS-HAC-1 caliber is higher priority.
However, since our shells explicitly don't shatter on hit with their armor, we could probably get away with a crystal tip. So I can write that version up too if people want.
Post by: helmacon on June 07, 2017, 06:50:18 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 07, 2017, 07:19:48 pm
In that case, if we are going to try AP shells for our Revision(possibly with a Research Credit, though that may be a bit of a waste), I'm down for it.
Quote from: Designs
2 - (Chiefwaffles)AS-HAC-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7477548#msg7477548): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist -- WARNING: DO NOT USE RESEARCH CREDIT.
0 - (RAM)Phalling Glow (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7477551#msg7477551):
0 - (RAM)Erection of Everywhere Explosions (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7477551#msg7477551):
0 - (RAM)Heat Rays (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7477562#msg7477562):
1 - (Kadzar) Giant Mutant Bird Cavalry (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7478147#msg7478147): Kadzar
As for what to use the Research Credit on... I'd suggest using it on something groundbreaking. Like this.
Spoiler: Groundbreaking (click to show/hide)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 07, 2017, 08:55:05 pm
Also, on the note of future stuff, if the AS-HAC-1 wins and Moskurg doesn't do anything too gamechanging next combat phase, what do people think of explosive shells + a revision to make flak shells? The main reason I didn't want to do them earlier is because of Moskurg's air advantage. If the AS-HAC-1 succeeds/we find some way to get rid of their air advantage, then we can build on our artillery advantage. Explosive shells is just a straightforward upgrade, really.
Though Crystal Optics may be better.
For a steam rifle, here's my thought process:
1.) Make the AS-HAC-1: Significant steps towards miniaturizing the steam cannon and also introduces several things useful to a rifle (breech-loading, magegem operation, sights)
2.) Crystal Optics: In addition to helping us with spotting, if we have a working Crystal Spyglass by the time we make a rifle, we can include a scope in the rifle (Which should be easy - "Just glue a crystal spyglass onto the top of the rifle")
3.) AM Resistance: We just need to make our circuits+Magegems anti-magic resistant. Maybe a revision, maybe a design. I dunno. Making our spells resistant is a whole different deal, but we need AM resistance for stuff like a APC and close(r)-range use of the steam rifle.
3.) APC?: While our rifles can be used as snipers (especially with crystal scopes), I think we should possibly make an APC beforehand so we get the full effect of it. Our infantry isn't that effective right now because of their ballistae, and giving them rifles won't solve this.
4.) Steam Rifle: Miniaturize the AS-HAC-1 way more, make it use much smaller caliber (bullets instead of shells), make it handheld, add a crystal scope, make it magic-resistant, and bam.
@Helmacon: That's basically a different version of the explosive ammunition, which Evicted has said multiple times is not worthy of a revision. I too think an explosive shell/your idea is pretty easy to do, but evidently Evicted does not agree.
EDIT: I'm just now reading it because I thought it was just Catgirl Assassins, but I really like the idea of your idea, Fallacy. It's basically a precursor to a teleport spell.
However, it's not really possible at the moment. Something like that would have heavy penalties, which a research credit doesn't help with. Perhaps we can go Aethergems -> APSS? At the very least, we should do something with the Aether first.
Post by: RAM on June 07, 2017, 09:02:30 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on June 08, 2017, 10:22:20 am
The Hybrid Autocannon 1 is Arstotzka's first attempt to do something previously thought impossible: build a smaller cannon.
Based off the success of the HC1-E, the HAC-1 is a minaturized version that can be quickly aimed or loaded. Rather than requiring the barrel to be depressed to have a new round loaded between each shot, the cannon makes use of a small locking hatch on the rear. After each shot the hatch can be opened, allowing a new round to be placed in the firing position without having to be rammed down the length of the barrel.
The gun is made almost entirely out of crystal, aside from the mount and circuit. The cooling circuit bands the barrel in multiple rows of nickel wires and quickly reduces temperatures to nominal levels between each shot. Being made of crystal, the cannon can be essentially 3D printed at the Crystalworks, replete with rifling inside of the barrel.
Unfortunately, the fact that the hinge on the breech-loader is also made of crystal represents a problem. The crystal is rather thin in the hinges, as neccessitated by the design. Firing sometimes causes these hinges to snap, blowing off the breech door and rendering the gun useless.
The cannon can fire six times a minute, as water and ammo must still be loaded by hand. It has a high muzzle velocity, but the relatively small size of the steel round means speed drops off quickly. It can shoot higher than a longbow, and is somewhat accurate thanks to a crude crosshair made of horse hair, but it can be difficult to track the small, high-speed round by eye. It is mounted on a small, free-spinning swivel on a tripod - the user must brace the cannon before firing lest it knock itself over.
Firing is performed by an apprentice performing a PSF, as mage gems were deemed too expensive and not powerful enough to launch the shells. Expensive
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 08, 2017, 10:34:44 am
Speaking of which, did you ever do that SI thing?
Quote
1 - Whatever Chiefwaffles proposes: FallacyofUrist
Post by: evictedSaint on June 08, 2017, 10:44:53 am
Post by: Andres on June 08, 2017, 11:05:28 am
Post by: evictedSaint on June 08, 2017, 11:12:29 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 08, 2017, 11:26:56 am
Revise the breach loader to use a sliding hatch instead of a hinged one. This can be opened and closed as quickly as the other one but has no thin parts that will break from the pressure.
Post by: Kadzar on June 08, 2017, 11:46:09 am
Revision: Giant Mutant Falcons
When the meteor first landed, there was much speculation about what it contained and what it could be used for. Among these wild proposals was the idea that they could create a humongous eagle by feeding it some alien extract. And this gave our researchers an idea.
By using our knowledge of plant magic, and through much trial-and-error, we've been able to devise an extract that can be fed to our falcons to grow them to monstrous size. No where near as large as the giant battle eagle that inspired their creation, and and maybe not even big enough to hold a rider at this point, but they are now stronger, faster, and, most importantly, more than a match for some silly Moskurg wizard armed with a scimitar.
TL, DR: Bigger falcons, possibly able to take a rider but more emphasis put on making them strong enough to take on wizards.
Quote
1 - Whatever Chiefwaffles proposes: FallacyofUrist
0? - (Voidslayer) No More Hinges: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479026#msg7479026) Voidslayer?
1 - (Kadzar) Giant Mutant Falcons: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479048#msg7479048) Kadzar
Post by: Andres on June 08, 2017, 03:25:03 pm
No More Hinges((Does this lead to bolt action rifles?
Revise the breach loader to use a sliding hatch instead of a hinged one. This can be opened and closed as quickly as the other one but has no thin parts that will break from the pressure.
Post by: helmacon on June 08, 2017, 03:40:30 pm
No More HingesSeems a bit too simple. Could we do this for all our cannons at once? Revise everything to be breech loading, with a slide?
Revise the breach loader to use a sliding hatch instead of a hinged one. This can be opened and closed as quickly as the other one but has no thin parts that will break from the pressure.
We have enough ammunition with our trains running, we just need to increase fire rate now.
Post by: RAM on June 08, 2017, 04:03:48 pm
After some thought, I will not be modifying the temperature aspect of their Adamantium.Thankyou for the consideration.
Discarding Sabot rounds (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discarding_sabot)
In yet another thrilling display of originality and devestating avoidance of anachronisms, we make a discarding sabot round... We take a heavy material(Going to say lead, but if someone has a better suggestion for time-appropriate and sufficiently abundant. Mercury could work but would be difficult to handle and is not that common, gold is expensive, platinum too) formed into a spike with feathering at the base to keep it from tumbling, stick it into the crystalworks to produce a reinforced lead penetrator, and then, in the field, stick it onto a circuit, juice it with a magem, and it forms a very short-lived crystal casing. The result is, of course, that the crystal is largely irrelevant. The crystal casing unsummons in flight. The crystal in the penetrator shatters as soon as it hits the surface, so it isn't the hardened super-lead projectile the wizards were expecting, but it keeps the lead from deforming prior to striking the target which is enough to focus all of its energy on one point and its scattering is actually beneficial for inflicting damage if it does penetrate.
End result: it throws a very thin, extremely heavy projectile with all the force of a wider projectile, with all of that force concentrated into moving the heavy part, thus allowing you to propel something heavier than you would normally be able to thus making a very effective penetrator.
There, a stupid boring A.P. round wtih enough common sense to be justified(Thin things penetrate more easily) and enough magic to be justified(unsummoning a sabot and pseudo-strengthening lead make up for material and mechanical issues.) for all your dull WWI needs...
Crystal is currently summoned around air, and contains air, I am guessing, so containing lead or mercury or whatever should be viable in a revision as no mention of being unable to crystalise around a solid has been mentioned...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 08, 2017, 06:23:17 pm
We don't have to make a complex AP round to work.
We can try being a bit ambitious here. I'd be fine voting for this if others are, but at the moment my vote is staying for the AP shell.
Revision: Sliding-Hatch Breech Loading
Building the AS-HAC-1 has given us valuable experience in the realm of breech-loading.
A sliding hatch-door is much more secure than hinges. It's tougher, and has less moving parts. The sliding hatch can easily be opened and closed by the operator and is a lot more tough to firings of the cannon compared to the hinge lock door used in the original AS-HAC-1 design.
Furthermore, we can implement this into every cannon design so far. We have experience with breech-loading and have managed to successfully put it in a design with only minor complications. The desired result is to have the HC1-E and HA1 be breech-loaders. We can afford to be a bit careful with the design and understand that these cannons weren't originally designed for breech-loading, so while they may not be as fast-reloading as the AS-HAC-1, they should still be a lot more quick in their reloading.
Or we can just do something simple that should work.
Revision: AP Shell
The AP shell is simple. It's a culmination of multiple tweaks to the materials used and structure of a shell. No breakthrough was made here - just conclusions (and their implementations) by our Mathemagicians on what material and shapes are best.
We change the structure of our current shell to encounter less resistance on its trajectory - something our Mathemagicians are calling "aerodynamics". In addition to this, we replace the inside of the shell with crystal, and toughen up the steel tip to avoid shattering on contact. The result is straightforward as well - the shell strikes harder thanks to its improved speed, from both aerodynamics and lightness, and the toughened steel tip means the shell doesn't shatter on impact, and more energy is "given" to piercing the armor. The impact site is decreased in size as well to maximize penetrative power.
The AP shell should be able to effectively pierce Moskurg's armor. The shell is meant to come in two sizes: One for the HC1-E, and one for the AS-HAC-1. Though if we can only do one size, the AS-HAC-1 caliber is higher priority. And if we still have time left over, a variant for the HA1 could never hurt.
Quote
DESIGNSSo apparently our Magegems are just useless. I don't think we've managed to put them in a single design yet. Extraordinarily annoying.
2 - AP Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479360#msg7479360): FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles
0? - (Voidslayer) No More Hinges: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479026#msg7479026) Voidslayer?
1 - (Kadzar) Giant Mutant Falcons: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479048#msg7479048) Kadzar
0 - Sliding-Hatch Breech Loading (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479360#msg7479360):
Post by: RAM on June 08, 2017, 07:27:48 pm
RAM, your idea is much more complicated than necessary. That'll be hard to do and it could even be vulnerable to antimagic?My design has three elements:
We don't have to make a complex AP round to work.
...
So apparently our Magegems are just useless. I don't think we've managed to put them in a single design yet. Extraordinarily annoying.
Shaped projectile: It is the same shape as an arrow...
Crystal-encased lead: I assume that we have crystal-encased air at present. It is basically increasing the density of crystal to that of lead, by filling the non-crystal component with lead instead of air. Either this is dead-easy as it just means putting a lead arrow on the summoning pedastal at the crystalworks and trimming off the extra. This also renders the parts that get close to the enemy immune to antimagic.
Crystal casing: This is absolutely vulnerable to antimagic. As vulerable, in fact, as our cannons are. If the crystalworks work as advertised then it ought to be easy to make something that slaps a crystal shell around a metal arrow. This is intended to disappear shortly after leaving the gun. If I wanted a complex design, then I would make it automatically dispel at a distance from the thing that summoned the casing. This is just a crystal covering for a shell, one that lasts a very short time, just long enough to load and shoot with a dash extra for margins. I like to think that it would be AAA-compatible. It is basically just a miniature, simple, crystalworks that summons a lock of crystal and then shapes it into a shell around a crystal arrow, or summons it directly into the correct shape. We have umpteen crystal forging spells and even automated crystal summoning. This is very familiar stuff here.
Those three are what is required, and they are all familiar territory. Except for the lead-crystal hybrid which is within the scope of a revision because it is just a lead(or gold or mercury, easy to shape regardless) arrow that is put on a pedastal before a crystal is summoned. This is not a complex revision.
The casing is meant to vanish in flight. It is there to make the projectile bigger when it is being fired. A bigger projectile can receive more force and thus be heavier while retaining the same velocity. Normally this is somewhat reduced by the larger impact area. A discarded sabot allows you to have a longer, heavier bullet than would normaly be possible with such a small projectile. Essencially a small-calibre bullet with the force of a large-calibre gun, which is perfect for armour piercing if all you have is a solid slug.
I do not actualyl see how AP Shell could be successful. I see the following issues:
Aerodynamic shells: We already did this, sure, we can do it again and get a better result, but we specifically changed the shape of our shells already.
Adding crystals: This makes the shell lighter, this is the opposite of what you do when you want to penetrate armour with brute force. It might hold its shape a little better, but it might not, high-speed impacts tend to be the thing that crystals are most vulnerable to. Assumingthat it does hold its sturcture you are still stuck with reduced mass and I don't see rigidity doing enough to counter that. If there is enough force for the shell to deform before penetrating then it probably wasn't going to penetrate anyway. It also implies that we know that our shells shatter on impact, which is plausible, we presumably find remains from test-firing, but we don't have any high-speed optics yet...
Improved speed: doesn't mean harder hit. The impact is a combination of speed and weight, and you cite reduced weight as a significant contributor to the increased speed. The other is aerodynamics which, yes, could be improved, but is not absent and we don't have any wind-tunnels...
Reducing the impact site: is at odds with aerodynamics. A spike would lose against our current shells and would be poor at recieving the force of the cannon while making it prone to tumbling.
Manufacturing: is also aproblem. We don't actually have much experience with putting crystals inside of metal. It shouldn't be a problem, just as my lead-crystal shouldn't be a problem, but it could be. The design has its own complexity to it and actually requires more skilled artisanry by my estimation.
As far as I can tell, all you really achieve is to reduce the density at the centre of the shell, which will result in the force being predominately spread out in a curclw around the impact point, as most of the penetration ultimately comes down to throwing as much mass as possible at the smallest area possible.
The simple fact is that despite "smaller impact area = better penetration" larger calibres have better penetration because they can apply more force. You are basically lowering to the square root by increasing the surface area, but taking it to the third power by increasing the length of the shell, for a net massive gain. Discarding sabot wins this game by being as heavy as a large-calibre but as thin as a low-calibre, getting the best of everything, and with mateirals that literally magicallydisappear, we can overcome mot of the hurdles of the technology.
Post by: helmacon on June 08, 2017, 07:47:38 pm
Quote
DESIGNS
2 - AP Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479360#msg7479360): FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles
0? - (Voidslayer) No More Hinges: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479026#msg7479026) Voidslayer?
1 - (Kadzar) Giant Mutant Falcons: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479048#msg7479048) Kadzar
0 - Sliding-Hatch Breech Loading (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479360#msg7479360): Helmacon
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 08, 2017, 07:51:50 pm
snip'dShaped projectile - Okay?
Crystal-encased lead - That's an interesting assumption. Crystal-encased lead is pretty much a revision of its own, since it seems like you want to make a hybrid material.
Crystal Casing - The crystalworks doesn't make dispellable-crystal. We'd have to summon crystal casing (and we take a while to summon crystal, by the way) on each shell before it's fired.
Your design is quite frankly just overengineering. You're trying to introduce a new material as well as forcing our magicians to spend massive amounts of time summoning crystal casing onto each shell. You're making an AP shell way too hard in both terms of the actual designing part and in its effectiveness.
Also, you're doing stuff like adding magegems and circuits to your shell. This is extremely overcomplicated.
---
Aerodynamic shells - Just because we changed their shape once doesn't mean we're at the pinnacle of aerodynamics.
Adding crystal - See below. And we aren't stupid. We can examine evidence. Are there bits of the shell scattered about the impact site? Wow, it must have shattered during impact! Is the shell somewhere else? Wow, it must have ricocheted!
Improved Speed - When calculating kinetic energy, velocity is squared but mass is not. Velocity matters much more than mass. Of course, improving speed and mass is the best option, but that's not particularly viable. This is modification of the shell, not a modification of the cannon.
Reducing impact site - No, not really. We can improve aerodynamics and reduce the impact site.
Manufacturing - I really shouldn't even bother with this. "We don't have much experience with doing the thing this revision is meant to introduce!"
I was going to edit this into my last post, but now I'll put it here.
Possible design that we could use the Research Credit for:
Future Design: AS-HAC-2
The AS-HAC-2 is a true autocannon.
The first change is an even smaller caliber size. [Variants of the AP Shell should be made for this size]. The new caliber is barely big enough to be called a "shell" at this point, but is still very sizeable. Despite this change in caliber, the AS-HAC-2 is still bigger than the AS-HAC-1 due to its additions. It can still be carried by one person, but generally we recommend two people for any prolonged carrying of the cannon.
We revisit the HC2, which is normally banned from ever being mentioned in the Academy, in this design. Its steam recycler component provides a very nice starting point and experience here. We use our extensive experience in everything steam and mechanics-related in order to get this one component into a state fit for the AS-HAC-2. We've had so much more experience with frost spells (including in the barrel of the AS-HAC-1, the cheaper frost towers, and more) too, that combined with the fact that most of the groundwork has already been done, this should be very easy to do.
The steam recycler utilizes frost spells to recycle steam into water before it leaves the barrel without compromising the projectile velocity. This means we don't have to constantly add new water. Not having to add in new water every reload should greatly increase our reload times! That, and the AS-HAC-2 won't be dependent on nearby bodies of water anymore!
While if we just scaled down the AS-HAC-1's caliber, we could make it notably smaller, the AS-HAC-2 uses the space and weight gained by scaling down the caliber in order to implement an innovative new system: Self-loading.
The decreased caliber makes the ammo storable in crystal boxes. These ammunition boxes - magazines - are designed to be attached to a part of the AS-HAC-2 where normally the breech-loader would be. Before the recovered steam goes through the steam recycler, it moves past a mechanical switch that toggles the loading mechanism, inserting a new shell from the magazine without human interaction.
The result is amazing - the cannon can fire without a human reloading! It reloads itself! The operator merely needs to attach a new magazine occasionally, and rarely refill it with water.
We're also making some tweaks to the cannon to allow for it to generally pressurize and fire faster. This is a smaller priority and isn't the major, but as this is now the major bottleneck in firing times, improving it is better. We've developed "heat" circuitry to keep the water at a higher "base" temperature, increasing the power of the cannon and the time to pressurize. Which is already very low.
The AS-HAC-2 maintains the swivel mount and crosshair. However, the crosshair has been improved to incorporate very basic predicted ballistic trajectories in it, allowing for the operator to easily estimate where to aim to hit different targets. It also maintains the same mount and firing angles as its predecessor.
The AS-HAC-2 should be an impressive weapon. Equipped with AP shells, it should be devastating. Their airships may be able to survive individual rounds from an AS-HAC-2, but with the sheer rate of fire from an AS-HAC-2 should easily bring their airships down. Against carpets, it's not even a contest - we can fill the sky with
TL;DR: A self-loading semi-automatic cannon with a smaller caliber, that uses a fixed version of the steam recycler we tried in the HC2.
Smaller Caliber
We're starting to blur the line between bullets and shells here. The idea is to free up space for the self-loading parts, and to allow for easy ammunition storage to actually let the self-loading aspect work.
Steam Recycler
Should be very easy because we already tried it with the HC2 and have had a ton of experience with frost/steam stuff since then.
The Steam Recycler practically removes the need to add in water in reloads, making the AS-HAC-2 much faster to reload, and making it not rely on nearby water sources/the Restless.
Self-Loading
This is quite difficult, but is the main focus of the design and shouldn't be too hard. We have plenty of experience with steam and now have breech-loading, so this is most certainly not possible. We won't be getting any bonuses for this, but I'm somewhat sure we shouldn't be getting any penalties.
The self-loading aspect allows the AS-HAC-2 to fire at an insane rate. It's not automatic, but is semi-automatic due to the need for the operator/apprentice to cast the PSF.
Heat Circuits
This is a minor and low-priority part of the design, but it should be easy because we have plenty of experience with frost circuits, and plenty of experience with heat. Fireballs. Steam engines. And whatnot.
Heat Circuits mean that the cannon should pressurize faster and that the same spell (PSF) should result in more power. Heat Circuits don't need external power, but also don't turn the water into steam by itself. It just keeps the water's "base" temperature notably higher.
Expense
The AS-HAC-1 is Expensive, and we have the Crystalworks. National Effort is impossible, Very Expensive is unlikely (but possible), Expensive is likely and the goal, and Cheap is unlikely.
The AS-HAC-2 does not obsolete the AS-HAC-1, as the AS-HAC-1 has larger-enough calibers that it can be useful in different situations, even with an AS-HAC-2 firing AP shells.
[Note to self: Include Magegems if we ever revise them to be better.]
Also, Evicted, is the AS-HAC-1 being put on Crystalclads? Considering the weight and expense, it should be a yes, right?
Post by: evictedSaint on June 08, 2017, 07:59:14 pm
Post by: RAM on June 08, 2017, 09:02:38 pm
Crystal-encased lead - That's an interesting assumption. Crystal-encased lead is pretty much a revision of its own, since it seems like you want to make a hybrid material.It is just combiningthe two, in a fashion that is plausible. We have never explained what happens to whatever is in the place that a summoned thing is summoned into. This just places something other than air where the crystal is summoned and has the crystal summoned around it. Normally this would just be heavy crystals, as lead doesn't really do anything to improve crystal other than maybe increase its shock resistance, but in a very very much less weight-efficient way than you would get from just adding more crystal. What it does achieve, however, is making the lead rigid until it impacts, which is pretty much the only thing that matters. Hardness is basically irrelevant in such forces and structure generally loses out to things like blast-waves. This just holds a liead-projectile's form so that it all piles onto a single point instead of behaving like a liquid and spreading out.
And the other aspect of this is, of course: "We don't have much experience with doing the thing this revision is meant to introduce!"
Crystal Casing - The crystalworks doesn't make dispellable-crystal. We'd have to summon crystal casing (and we take a while to summon crystal, by the way) on each shell before it's fired.Um, no? It is a pretty tiny spell. Smaller than an axe or a full load of caltrops, more temporary than, basically anything. It should be easy for a magem to do this. And we have summoning spells, so that is a non issue. And the crystal works shapes crystal. Now, with all our expertise, this should again be a non-issue to just summon the thing directly, but a crystal-works crystal manipulator should work if necessary. And the duration is a non-issue because we will already have an ammunition handler, and the circuits can presumably be automated if we are to do half the things that you want to, so none of this is any sort of issue. We are already doing all of the things that this proposes, just not in this specific configuration, but we have enough different configurations of these mechanisms that one more should be an afterthought. So once the device is don with it should be an insignificant addition to the existing magical requirements of the cannon. No direct wizard interaction required.
Your design is quite frankly just overengineering. You're trying to introduce a new material as well as forcing our magicians to spend massive amounts of time summoning crystal casing onto each shell. You're making an AP shell way too hard in both terms of the actual designing part and in its effectiveness.The shell has no gems or circuits. There is a separate device that adds a normal-crystal case. No gem or circuit is ever included in the shell itself. And there should be basically no more wizard intervention required for this than a normal cannon. It is just one gem-powered device to place cases around the shell. We have devices to summon crystals in the crystalworks, and we had crystals bound to gems ages ago. Crystal-summon + device is the simplest thing we could do and circuits are exactly a thing that does this now.
Also, you're doing stuff like adding magegems and circuits to your shell. This is extremely overcomplicated.
There is almost no "new material" aspect asit is just summoning a crystal over lead instead of air. What remains is pretty much the whole difficulty of the revision.
It is just one more type of device, like the horde of devices in the crystalworks, steam engines, cannons, towers, and basically everything now. So yes, wizards may be involved in building these devices, and may be involved in charging them, but not in operating them so it is completely irrelevant.
The design is easy, we just cast a bolt and then summon a couple of crystals. Not a big deal.
The effectiveness is the only viable way to see any effectiveness without magic bullets or explosives. We cannot currently make magic bullets unless you want to try wasps or solidified fireballs or compressed spiderwebs or something... Explosives are right-out because not magic. We could start material sciences from scratch and attempt to imbue fireball into wood or something but basically no. This is large calibre force in small calibre impact, that is by far the best way to make a penetrator given our materials. It is basically the only way to see any effectiveness at all.
Aerodynamic shells - Just because we changed their shape once doesn't mean we're at the pinnacle of aerodynamics.I was quite clear that this could help, but also that our previous efforts diminished the ability to improve. We may well get something better from this, but not better enough to see a significant improvement, nor even better enough to counteract the smaller calibre.
Adding crystal - See below. And we aren't stupid. We can examine evidence. Are there bits of the shell scattered about the impact site? Wow, it must have shattered during impact! Is the shell somewhere else? Wow, it must have ricocheted!... there is no reason to believe that the energy is being transferred into the fragmentation of the bullet and thus failing to be transferred into the target. It is not obvious that this is important. But it is plausible that they might notice it and I noted that. A heavier bullet at a smaller impace makes sense. It is why maces have spikes, and lances have points, and axes have blades, and needles go through fabric. That heavy-shots work better than light shots is also obvious, just as it being difficult to launch a heavy shot from a light cannon. This is the obvious extension of trying to launch a small projectile with the force of a large cannon. You make the heavy part small and the rest of it light.
Improved Speed - When calculating kinetic energy, velocity is squared but mass is not. Velocity matters much more than mass. Of course, improving speed and mass is the best option, but that's not particularly viable. This is modification of the shell, not a modification of the cannon.When imparting velocity everything is rooted... it comes out to no difference at all. It is not about how much force we deploy, that is dependant upon the cannon, what matters is how that force is applied. Yours is a big impactor that makes a dent the same shape as a cannon barrel, mine is a small impactor that makes a much smaller dent. Both have the same mass, unless mine has a much faster exit velocity due to being legitimately lighter because most of the bullet is inconsequencial rather than putting a big low-energy light spot right in the middle. Now, yes, a bit more aerodynamics would lead to a bit less force erosion, but the size of the impact is a much bigger issue. You basically do not have an armour-piercing proposal but instead an accuracy proposal.
Reducing impact site - No, not really. We can improve aerodynamics and reduce the impact site.Really can't. High-force impact sites are more about everything piling up and trying to get through than an elegant hardened arrow cutting through a soft chain link. If our cannons are weak then you might be right though, but then my arrow-hidden-in-a-normal-shell is even more so. At best your propsal would be adding a needle out the front of the bullet, while my proposal makes the whole bullet into a needle and it doesn't expend most of its energy on a pointlessly huge bullet.
Manufacturing - I really shouldn't even bother with this. "We don't have much experience with doing the thing this revision is meant to introduce!"Which is pretty much exactly what I said. This reasoning applies to both our proposals. Both are generally easy but have some complications, one is armour-piercing and the other is aerodynamics and likely some sort of hollow-point with the soft crystal centre. Certainly ueful, but not armour piercing.
Quote
DESIGNS
0 - (Voidslayer) No More Hinges: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479026#msg7479026)
1 - (Kadzar) Giant Mutant Falcons: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479048#msg7479048) Kadzar
0 - (RAM)Discarding Sabot rounds (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479220#msg7479220):
1 - (Chiefwaffles)Sliding-Hatch Breech Loading (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479360#msg7479360): Helmacon
2 - (Chiefwaffles)AP Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479360#msg7479360): FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 08, 2017, 09:34:52 pm
It is just combiningthe two, in a fashion that is plausible. We have never explained what happens to whatever is in the place that a summoned thing is summoned into. This just places something other than air where the crystal is summoned and has the crystal summoned around it. Normally this would just be heavy crystals, as lead doesn't really do anything to improve crystal other than maybe increase its shock resistance, but in a very very much less weight-efficient way than you would get from just adding more crystal. What it does achieve, however, is making the lead rigid until it impacts, which is pretty much the only thing that matters. Hardness is basically irrelevant in such forces and structure generally loses out to things like blast-waves. This just holds a liead-projectile's form so that it all piles onto a single point instead of behaving like a liquid and spreading out.You want to make a crystal-lead alloy.
We have never done anything like this before. At best this is a revision of its own. You're seeking insane overcomplication here and I frankly don't know why.
Um, no? It is a pretty tiny spell. Smaller than an axe or a full load of caltrops, more temporary than, basically anything. It should be easy for a magem to do this. And we have summoning spells, so that is a non issue. And the crystal works shapes crystal. Now, with all our expertise, this should again be a non-issue to just summon the thing directly, but a crystal-works crystal manipulator should work if necessary. And the duration is a non-issue because we will already have an ammunition handler, and the circuits can presumably be automated if we are to do half the things that you want to, so none of this is any sort of issue. We are already doing all of the things that this proposes, just not in this specific configuration, but we have enough different configurations of these mechanisms that one more should be an afterthought. So once the device is don with it should be an insignificant addition to the existing magical requirements of the cannon. No direct wizard interaction required.
Crystal Caltrops: [3-1, 4+1, 6]The only reason crystal caltrops are cheap is because we don't actually need to pay attention to the shape.
With their new training, our apprentices can now handle more spells than the basic Conjure Mist. With this in mind, we begin development of a spell purposefully designed to be easy to cast while still maintaining usefulness - ideally doing something to combat the Moskurg Calvary that swarms our lines like overgrown rats. Working diligently on some of the more basic principles of magic, our mages have developed a relatively simple spell that spawns dozens of randomly-shaped crystals at a time. Without relying on a uniform shape these crystals can be cast into being with minimal effort by our esteemed wizards. These caltrops are random, jagged needles of crystal glass that are nearly invisible at night, sharp enough to pierce the hoof of an unsuspecting horse...most of the time.
Our shells have to be a very uniform shape. We have rifled barrels. It'd take a very long time to summon something to the level of precision we need for shells.
Crystalworks crystal very explicitly does not dispel. That's half of the point of the Crystalworks. It makes non-dispellable crystal.
I have no idea what you mean by "our circuits can be automated". I actually don't understand a lot of what you're trying to say here.
The shell has no gems or circuits. There is a separate device that adds a normal-crystal case. No gem or circuit is ever included in the shell itself. And there should be basically no more wizard intervention required for this than a normal cannon. It is just one gem-powered device to place cases around the shell. We have devices to summon crystals in the crystalworks, and we had crystals bound to gems ages ago. Crystal-summon + device is the simplest thing we could do and circuits are exactly a thing that does this now.Oh, now you want to make a field crystal summoning tool? That's its own design.
There is almost no "new material" aspect asit is just summoning a crystal over lead instead of air. What remains is pretty much the whole difficulty of the revision.You're literally making a crystal-lead alloy. No amount of wordplay can change that. You want to combine lead and crystal. And you want to do it using this extremely strange method that'd likely just result in "okay you have blobs of lead embedded in crystal" at best.
It is just one more type of device, like the horde of devices in the crystalworks, steam engines, cannons, towers, and basically everything now. So yes, wizards may be involved in building these devices, and may be involved in charging them, but not in operating them so it is completely irrelevant.A steam-powered helicarrier is just one more type of device, like the hordes of devices in the crystalworks, steam engines, cannons, towers, and basically everything now. So yes, wizards may be involved in building these devices, and may be involved in charging them, but not in operating them so it is completely irrelevant.
The design is easy, we just cast a bolt and then summon a couple of crystals. Not a big deal.Except that we also have to make an entirely new alloy when we've never made an alloy using crystal before, and we have to spend large amounts of time (see my point above regarding summoning times) to summon the crystals for every single shell. A very big deal.
The effectiveness is the only viable way to see any effectiveness without magic bullets or explosives. We cannot currently make magic bullets unless you want to try wasps or solidified fireballs or compressed spiderwebs or something... Explosives are right-out because not magic. We could start material sciences from scratch and attempt to imbue fireball into wood or something but basically no. This is large calibre force in small calibre impact, that is by far the best way to make a penetrator given our materials. It is basically the only way to see any effectiveness at all.AkA "My design is the best because I say it is! I say it's the best armor piercer, so therefore it must be!"
Also, we can easily do explosions. Magegem + Circuit = Fireball.
I was quite clear that this could help, but also that our previous efforts diminished the ability to improve. We may well get something better from this, but not better enough to see a significant improvement, nor even better enough to counteract the smaller calibre.I was quite clear that aerodynamics was just one part of multiple.
... there is no reason to believe that the energy is being transferred into the fragmentation of the bullet and thus failing to be transferred into the target. It is not obvious that this is important. But it is plausible that they might notice it and I noted that. A heavier bullet at a smaller impace makes sense. It is why maces have spikes, and lances have points, and axes have blades, and needles go through fabric. That heavy-shots work better than light shots is also obvious, just as it being difficult to launch a heavy shot from a light cannon. This is the obvious extension of trying to launch a small projectile with the force of a large cannon. You make the heavy part small and the rest of it light.
Quote from: Wikipedia, "Armor-Piercing Shells"
An armor-piercing shell must withstand the shock of punching through armor plating. Shells designed for this purpose have a greatly strengthened body with a specially hardened and shaped nose. One common addition to later AP shells is the use of a softer ring or cap of metal on the nose known as a penetrating cap, which both lowers the initial shock of impact to prevent the rigid shell from shattering, as well as aiding the contact between the target armor and the nose of the penetrator to prevent the shell from bouncing off in glancing shots.
That and again, velocity matters more than mass in terms of kinetic energy. Increasing the mass of our shells doesn't magically increase the power of our cannons. The shells will be fired with less power and will impact with less speed, resulting in less energy being transferred to the target. This is hyperbole, but someone getting hit by a 1 kg projectile going 100 m/s is going to be hurt a lot more than someone getting hit by a 100 kg projectile going 1 m/s.
Which is pretty much exactly what I said. This reasoning applies to both our proposals. Both are generally easy but have some complications, one is armour-piercing and the other is aerodynamics and likely some sort of hollow-point with the soft crystal centre. Certainly ueful, but not armour piercing.And I was pointing out how ridiculous what you said was.
Quote
DESIGNSPutting the author of the design in the votebox makes zero sense and just adds bloat, by the way.
2 - AP Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479360#msg7479360): FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles
0 - No More Hinges: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479026#msg7479026)
1 - Giant Mutant Falcons: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479048#msg7479048) Kadzar
0 - Discarding Sabot rounds (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479220#msg7479220):
1 - Sliding-Hatch Breech Loading (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479360#msg7479360): Helmacon
And I'm done trying to prove the validity of my design. You'll continue pointing out inconsequential usually-not-even-true "flaws" in my proposals regardless of what I do, and I'd rather not argue some more. I'll let others see the merits of my stuff.
Post by: helmacon on June 08, 2017, 10:10:37 pm
Post by: RAM on June 08, 2017, 11:36:54 pm
You want to make a crystal-lead alloy.An alloy is acombining two materials to make a new material. This is different. Crystal is low-density, it has space inside it, the crystal is completly normal crystal overlayed with lead, which occupies the space within the crystal. Calling this an alloy is a falsehood.
We have never done anything like this before. At best this is a revision of its own. You're seeking insane overcomplication here and I frankly don't know why.
We have done exactly this before, since we first made crystals. Crystals have always been low density and always had space within them. It is one of their defining traits. In fact their primary defining trait, given that low-weight is what made them special. I am assuming that the empty space is occupied by the air that was previously in the space that it now occupies. I am assuming that if lead were there instead it would work the same as air, just summoning a crystal that has a lot of non-crystal space occupied by whatever had previously been there. This is a normal crystal summoning, just with unusual circumstances. We have done normal crystal summoning before.
As for why? Well, lead is soft, it would be more effective if it were harder. A crystal coating would still work, but less effectively. I still dare say that if the speed is high enough lead would be more effective than steel, but we are probably not quite at that speed yet. A steel bolt would be preferable if the crystal-lead process fails.
The only reason crystal caltrops are cheap is because we don't actually need to pay attention to the shape.Crystalworks is composite spellcraft. Taking out the permanent element is easy. We just take out the crystalworks permanent summoning and put in the EXTREMELY FAMILIAR basic crystal summoning. The crystalworks operates based upon templates, we just have to make up a templae and it is good to go, and given the low power requirements to maintain a brief spell, it is not an issue to power it. I think that you are massively underestimating our crystal experience and don't know how the crystalworks works. It ended up being a template deal which works perfectly with making a field template, which would be for a tiny little shell, so ought to be much smaller than a cannon.
Our shells have to be a very uniform shape. We have rifled barrels. It'd take a very long time to summon something to the level of precision we need for shells.
Crystalworks crystal very explicitly does not dispel. That's half of the point of the Crystalworks. It makes non-dispellable crystal.
I have no idea what you mean by "our circuits can be automated". I actually don't understand a lot of what you're trying to say here.That would pertain to autoloaders in the future, so is not important in the present. It is just pointing out that it would not add much to the hassles of future-proofing.
Oh, now you want to make a field crystal summoning tool? That's its own design.If we did not already have ALL of the parts then it might be. That is not the case. Using existing elements to get an existing result with a slightly different outcome is normal partial-revision stuff.
You're literally making a crystal-lead alloy. No amount of wordplay can change that. You want to combine lead and crystal.You want to combine steel and crystal. I am not trying to mix them, just overlay them, they would still maintain their separate compositions. Bringing up the word alloy is the only wordplay here.
And you want to do it using this extremely strange method that'd likely just result in "okay you have blobs of lead embedded in crystal" at best.Extremely strange methods are the whole point of this game, and this specific one is just a logical putcome of realising that crystals are so light because they are filled with air. It is not even that strange honestly. On the other point, it is an arrow-shaped blob of lead ebedded in crystal, which is exaclty the aim of the effort. It is a win condition and gets us the mass of lead with enough rigidity to be a functional penetrator. Heavier materials would be nice but it really doesn't matter.
A steam-powered helicarrier-_-
It is just a crystal summoning template, that is exactly what the crystalworks is. And I would power the helicarrier with fireball-derived Orion-drives, not steam...
Except that we also have to make an entirely new alloy when we've never made an alloy using crystal before, and we have to spend large amounts of time (see my point above regarding summoning times) to summon the crystals for every single shell. A very big deal.Not an alloy, just summoning a crystal where lead already exists instead odf sumoning a crystal where air already exists. And ending with a crystal that is filled with lead and thus heavy instead of a crystal filled with air and thus light. And if it is impractical to make shells with the crystalworks magic then it is impractical to have crystal in shells. these devices barely need to be manned, assuming that they take a full hour just for a little cover for shells it is still not a problem, we can use other ammunition and operate them in parallel
AkA "My design is the best because I say it is! I say it's the best armor piercer, so therefore it must be!"Explosions are tough because they need a trigger. And they would be vulnerable to antimagic because the spell would activate at the destination. It is something that we do not yet have. I expect that we could do it easily as a design, but it would need some creative justification. I would like to try something with living spells for it...
Also, we can easily do explosions. Magegem + Circuit = Fireball.
And the physics involved is not really up for debate. More concentrated energy is the way to penetrate. You can also try sustained energy or something but it still comes down to concentration of energy. Yours has a low energy crystal in the middle, ow energy because it is low mass and the whole bullet is moving at the same speed so mass is the only factor. Now, if your bullet remains intact and rigid then maybe you can focus that energy on a point, until the area widens and you are back down to having to push the back of the bullet through the hole, so you gain nothing except to weaken the defending structure. This is a pretty big assumption though, it is almost certain that your bullet crumples and your shaped-penetrator is meaningless. It is a simple fact that a big bullet is a big bullet and without a new allow that won't change. You want to magic up some hardened steel that will withstand a cannon impact with adamant, which is not likely, and would achieve very little if it did. It still all comes down to the "AP Shells" having to make a large hole when hole-size is the important factor. If we were trying to do more damage in total then your idea might well have merit, but armour-piercing is not achieved by fragile hardness and microscopic speed increases.
The wikipedia quote is misdirected. My quote was referencing what our designers could reasonable think of. It IS useful, but it applies more to my design than yours, with a rigid-lead pole being much more fitting than a steel tip against adamant. Mine does shatter as it hits, but only at the point of impact, the back is still a line of rigid heavy material. Yours bends open as the heavy outside strikes and deforms because of the open structure.... there is no reason to believe that the energy is being transferred into the fragmentation of the bullet and thus failing to be transferred into the target. It is not obvious that this is important. But it is plausible that they might notice it and I noted that. A heavier bullet at a smaller impace makes sense. It is why maces have spikes, and lances have points, and axes have blades, and needles go through fabric. That heavy-shots work better than light shots is also obvious, just as it being difficult to launch a heavy shot from a light cannon. This is the obvious extension of trying to launch a small projectile with the force of a large cannon. You make the heavy part small and the rest of it light.Quote from: Wikipedia, "Armor-Piercing Shells"An armor-piercing shell must withstand the shock of punching through armor plating. Shells designed for this purpose have a greatly strengthened body with a specially hardened and shaped nose. One common addition to later AP shells is the use of a softer ring or cap of metal on the nose known as a penetrating cap, which both lowers the initial shock of impact to prevent the rigid shell from shattering, as well as aiding the contact between the target armor and the nose of the penetrator to prevent the shell from bouncing off in glancing shots.
That and again, velocity matters more than mass in terms of kinetic energy. Increasing the mass of our shells doesn't magically increase the power of our cannons. The shells will be fired with less power and will impact with less speed, resulting in less energy being transferred to the target. This is hyperbole, but someone getting hit by a 1 kg projectile going 100 m/s is going to be hurt a lot more than someone getting hit by a 100 kg projectile going 1 m/s.
You are trying to magic velocity out of nothing, and we do not have that magic. Your projectile will move slower than mine because your projectile is heavier because it is wider because its weight is distributed to the outside. A tiny dash of aerodynamics will lose to my thinner, longer projectile, aerodynamics is very kind to long thin things. Both designs get shot out of the same cannon, mine has a more concentrated projectile, concentration=penetration.
How much energy does it take to get those wieghts up to speed?
The fundamental point of discarded sabot is that it applies the full force of the shot into a smaller projectile. Smaller projectiles displace less air, so are more aerodynamic barring extreme problems. smaller projectiles have a smaller impact area, so have much more penetration per unit of energy inserted. My projectile's impact area is smaller than its launch area. discarding sabot can be lighter to launch and heavier to hit because iof this. Discarding sabot has a higher launch-velocity from being lighter, and a superior penetration from being heavier. It uses almost the full force of the cannon because it is the same calibre and only discards the minority of its mass, and hits with that same force at a much smaller clalibre, because it is both an unusaully light round in a heavy calibre and an impossibly heavy round in a small calibre.
Honestly, we are already using aerodynamic hardened steel. These "AP Shell" are not armourpiercing, they are just an upgrade. nice, butdo not address the current issue.
I did that last turn, but idid not start it this turn. Someone else did that all by themselves for the revision phase. And I find it to be useful because I would rather not vote for my own designs if I can help it. Meanwhile it is basically devoid of clutter, I mean, really, ar you honestly having trouble with the complexity of the vote list? I am being honest here, I really don't know. I can't see it happening myself but it is perfectly normal for people to vary in this sort of thing. On the other hand, I will go so far as to say that the dashes add nothing but busiwork to people adding new entries. I find the numbers with just a single space to be abundantly clear in their meaning. and requiring of no further demonstrations. But, unfortunately I have a strict "no lost data" policy. But i will refrain from adding them in the future, if it occurs to me, and someone else agrees. Oh, I am putting them in order of when they were submitted, which is very easy by referencing the links. Again, lost information as far as visibility goes.QuoteDESIGNSPutting the author of the design in the votebox makes zero sense and just adds bloat, by the way.
2 - AP Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479360#msg7479360): FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles
0 - No More Hinges: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479026#msg7479026)
1 - Giant Mutant Falcons: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479048#msg7479048) Kadzar
0 - Discarding Sabot rounds (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479220#msg7479220):
1 - Sliding-Hatch Breech Loading (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479360#msg7479360): Helmacon
And I'm done trying to prove the validity of my design. You'll continue pointing out inconsequential usually-not-even-true "flaws" in my proposals regardless of what I do, and I'd rather not argue some more. I'll let others see the merits of my stuff.Thankyou for giving me the last word, it is nice!
Quote
DESIGNS
0 - (Voidslayer) No More Hinges: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479026#msg7479026)
1 - (Kadzar) Giant Mutant Falcons: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479048#msg7479048) Kadzar
0 - (RAM)Discarding Sabot rounds (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479220#msg7479220):
1 - (Chiefwaffles)Sliding-Hatch Breech Loading (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479360#msg7479360): Helmacon
2 - (Chiefwaffles)AP Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479360#msg7479360): FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles
Post by: evictedSaint on June 08, 2017, 11:38:22 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 09, 2017, 02:02:11 am
Quote
DESIGNS
0 - (Voidslayer) No More Hinges: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479026#msg7479026)
1 - (Kadzar) Giant Mutant Falcons: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479048#msg7479048) Kadzar
0 - (RAM)Discarding Sabot rounds (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479220#msg7479220):
2 - (Chiefwaffles)Sliding-Hatch Breech Loading (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479360#msg7479360): Helmacon, voidslayer
2 - (Chiefwaffles)AP Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479360#msg7479360): FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles
Really I think either one will help, just like the fire rod vs minicannon debate.
I REALLY think we should make a flare rod next round though. It is the only place our apprentices are still getting killed consistently.
Then we can grow the falcons bigger.
Then make killer wolves.
Then make the wolves humanoid and able to use the flare rods and cannons.
Then make a cloning factory...
Okay too many steps ahead!
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 09, 2017, 02:06:39 am
I'm myself waiting for the combat phase/others' ideas before thinking of a design next design phase, but right now I tentatively want an APC. It'd really help make our infantry relevant again.
Post by: RAM on June 09, 2017, 03:31:28 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 09, 2017, 03:41:17 am
Sure, right now our artillery is taking care of that, but it would still be nice having an APC that could make our troops relevant again. So we would both have an infantry advantage and an artillery advantage.
They can go as high as they want, but ultimately air's just support for the ground.
That and an APC would protect against ballistae and firebombs, their two competent ranged weapons. Remember when last design phase, Evicted accidently thought the train design was a tracked APC? With an effectiveness of 2, we had armor that could reliably stop ballista bolts. Hell, the APC wasn't even that bad.
So with an APC, our troops would be protected from air and artillery bombardment alike as they advance and gain land - the entire point for fighting.
Post by: RAM on June 09, 2017, 03:48:16 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 09, 2017, 03:54:43 am
If they have control of the air and we have control of the ground, then we win. We're fighting over the ground here, after all. And it's not like we don't have any control over the air. We have Falcons and also, now the AS-HAC-1. So wherever our soldiers are, we have anti-air.
Actually, that's not a bad idea. If/when we do an APC, we should incorporate the AS-HAC-1 (or 2, if we ever do that) into the design. It's simple and already exists. If there's too much potential of enemy fire it can just not be used, but otherwise allows for the AS-HAC-1 to be used on the move, offensive, and as anti-air without the fear of getting blown up by lightning. It's small enough that the design doesn't have to be built around it, its breech-loading means it's easy to reload from a static position, and its swivel-y nature means it'd be great for a mobile emplacement.
But yeah. Let's say there are two zones. Zone A and Zone B. Two opposing sides control one zone. Both sides want Zone A, but their weapons and armor mean they're at a stalemate. Even though they're at a stalemate in terms of combat, the side with Zone A wins. And that's not even factoring in the part that we have anti-air: Falcons and the AS-HAC-1.
EDIT: Because apparently I have nothing else to do with my time.
Future Design: AS-APC-1 "Protector"
The Protector is, in a way, a Restless' main wagon adapted to work on land.
The body of the vehicle is entirely crystal, thick enough to stand up to any of Moskurg's weapons. Be it firebomb, lightning, bolt, or arrow. Along the vehicle's center, inside the cabin, is the steam engine. This steam engine is the same one we miniaturized in the Restless design, and is thus already (relatively) small and light enough to fit in a vehicle of this size without sacrificing speed or space.
At the front is the driver's seat. Small portholes - small enough to block the luckiest of arrows - are scattered across the front here to allow for visibility without compromising the safety of the driver. Using our experience of this mechanical control system from the Restless, we have a series of levers in front of the driver's seat that control power and steeling in the wheels.
Between the driver's seat and steam engine is a relatively small crystal hatch and risen "pedestal" for someone to stand on. On top of the hatch, a AS-HAC-1 is attached to a small swivel mount. A person can stand out the hatch and operate the AS-HAC-1 when needed. In the case of an impending attack (such as a carpet getting dangerously close or seeing a ballista about to fire), the weapon operator can quickly lower themselves into the cabin and close the hatch. The AS-HAC-1, being made out of crystal, should survive most attacks (other than a direct ballista bolt or something similar), while the hatch should keep everyone in the cabin safe.
Water and ammunition is given small amounts of dedicated storage space in the standard configuration of the AS-APC-1. There's not a large amount of ammunition, but seats can be replaced with boxes/tanks for storage of additional ammo as needed. Without sacrificing space for personnel, an AS-APC-1 is still a formidable foe, but its cannon is best used in a support role. The optimum use of the cannon is to aid large-scale assaults, defend against the rare actual threat to the AS-APC-1, and when supplied with enough ammo, as essentially a small motorized cannon.
Without giving up any space to store additional ammunition, the AS-APC-1 can safely and securely bring 10 soldiers (and 1 driver) to any destination. Its AS-HAC-1 cannon is formidable for aiding in assaults, self-defense, and as anti-air. It can cover infantry assaults, individually transport squads to prone striking sites for skirmishes, and act in large-scale assaults where it safely brings our soldiers to a front-line melee without having to worry about enemy bombardment. It's practically invulnerable to firebombs, lightning, and ballistae too!
TL;DR: A 11 (including driver) person APC equipped with an AS-HAC-1. Very multi-use - thanks to the nature of crystal and their weapons, it's even kind of a tank! It has a (small) cannon and armor thick enough to block pretty much anything they have.
Just imagine it! Rolling through their fortifications without so much as a scratch. Allowing our soldiers to practically ignore their artillery. Serving as a motorized cannon. Serving as a cannon practically invulnerable to their weapons. Supporting our troops in combat with its cannon. It can do so many things!
...And this design is simply because I feel we maaaay be getting a little too non-magical. I still prefer the AS-APC-1 of course. It's not particularly relevant to anything that's happening right now, but at some point we should start doing new things instead of constantly countering. We'll see how next combat phase goes then we can go from there.
Design: Summon Shade
A Shade is a being made out of mist. It being made out of mist, it tends to be hard to detect. In its normal form, it's not particularly noticeable. However, it can also disperse itself temporarily to practically become invisible.
We've had plenty of experience with summoning and a decent amount of experience with summoning living things. Of course, we aren't really near the ability to summon a creature of substantial intelligence, so in order to allow a shade to be useful, we must go around our little inability to summon intelligent creatures.
Instead of being an independent creature, the Shade is more-so an extension of the casting mage. The mage in a way, gives basic directions ("go here", "do this") across an Aether link to the shade and its more basic intelligence handles the finer details. The Mage is partially aware of what a Shade senses, but can't directly interpret the senses of a shade. If a shade sees an enemy, the mage will know that there's an enemy near the shade, but not who the enemy is exactly.
A Mage can have multiple shades active at a time, but our mages only have so much willpower and mental capacity, so most can only have 2-3 active at a time, and that tends to occupy them while doing it. Mages can typically have one shade active and do other more numbing tasks such as powering our magitech at the same time.
The Shade is primarily designed for use in a scout/spotting role. A mage near artillery can have a Shade active to spot, and because of the mage's awareness of the location of the shade, things such as flares aren't needed and the artillery can be much more precise. The shade can be used for other roles too. Scouting out enemy squadrons and camps prior to an ambush, scouting for an ambush, distracting an enemy, spying in their camps, and more.
In fact, a shade does have limited environmental manipulation. They can "hold" lightweight and small objects, and thus can be used for limited theft and sabotage of enemy objects. They also have the aforementioned ability to temporarily disperse themselves for minutes at a time, but if they're dispersed for too long the strain on the magic binding the mist together becomes too great and collapses the link.
The shade is dispellable by anti-magic, but given that their mages have to explicitly cast their anti-magic spell in a given location, our shades shouldn't be affected by their anti-magic.
UPGRADE POTENTIAL:
1.) Dispersment. Basically a short-range """teleport""". The mist making up the shade disperses and forms together in another nearby area.
2.) Mimicry. Let it mimic the forms of enemies.
3.) Flying. ehehehehehe
4.) Lethalness. It could be an amazing soldier.
It serves as a very stealthy scout/spotter as well as a pseudo-spy. Has lots of potential in the future. And before you say "no experience!", I feel we're allowed a little bit more leeway here given it's based entirely on our Conjuration Spellbook and that we've been using conjuration/summoning for a very long time. That and I want a break from typing needless fluff logic to rationalize why we should be able to do this. Really, I feel like we could have even done this spell at the very beginning of the game. Roboson even suggested a Shade spell nearly immediately after the game started.
Just wanted to make a design that isn't magitech.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 09, 2017, 12:23:04 pm
I will flip a coin here in an hour or so, if the tie isnt broken
Post by: andrea on June 09, 2017, 01:02:04 pm
Quote
DESIGNS
0 - (Voidslayer) No More Hinges: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479026#msg7479026)
1 - (Kadzar) Giant Mutant Falcons: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479048#msg7479048) Kadzar
0 - (RAM)Discarding Sabot rounds (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479220#msg7479220):
3 - (Chiefwaffles)Sliding-Hatch Breech Loading (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479360#msg7479360): Helmacon, voidslayer, Andrea
2 - (Chiefwaffles)AP Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7479360#msg7479360): FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles
TIE BREAKER!
good breechloading will help with rifles, and hopefully with higher rate of fire.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 09, 2017, 01:06:31 pm
I tried assembling a list of pro/cons for the two tied proposals.
AP Shells
+ Applies to future cannons
+ Makes our HC1-Es and thus Crystalclads much more effective against their armored boats.
+ Makes our cannons on the field able to pre-emptively counter any future Moskurg armor designs.
+ Makes our HAC-1s truly effective against their airships.
Sliding-Hatch Breech Loading
+ Improves the RoF of our HA1 and HC1-E.
+ General improvement to all our cannons, making them even more powerful. (High RoF can trump armor piercing)
- Somewhat difficult (We know how to do breech-loading but it may be difficult to implement it globally.)
EDIT: Got ninja'd by Andrea but I'll post this anyways.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 09, 2017, 01:28:47 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on June 09, 2017, 02:29:43 pm
Using a normal hatch was a silly idea.
In order to make a hatch that can withstand the pressure from the cannon ignition, we develop a new type of hatch that's an actual block that slides and locks into place. Modeled after a lock on a door, this "bolt action" hatch relies on tight tolerances to maintain a tight seal. The lever arm locks into place when firing, and can be rotated and slid back to reload.
We apply this new method of breech-loading to our existing cannons, allowing slightly faster load times - but more importantly, allowing the barrels to remain elevated and on-target without requiring them to be lowered for reloading.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 09, 2017, 02:57:39 pm
Seems like in hindsight, AP shells would have been a better use of that 6. Oh well, though. This one is definitely still useful. Fixes the bug with the AS-HAC-1 and improves the RoF of all our cannons.
I don't think there's anything to decide in terms of strategy. What do people think we should do for our next design, barring any curveballs thrown by Moskurg?
Post by: RAM on June 09, 2017, 03:56:48 pm
Code: [Select]
[b][u]Stingmind Fireballs[/u]
Streamlined Fireballs are blocked by this new armour so we eneed a way around it. We fortunately have a spell that is very good at going around things. Wasps are known to go through windows, down chimneys, and up kilts with ease. While creating a magic fireball that behaves like our magic wasps is extremely difficult, we believe that utilising a comprehensive mathemagical analysis of the spells involved we can transplant the magical elements that grant wasps their "mind" and implant it onto a fireball's compulsion to travel in a straight line and then explode. Thus producing a fireball that will seek our weak kegger flesh and then 'sting' it(and everything else within the blast radius)...[/b]A reliable way to deal with armour that has holes, with some range limitations but fireballs have decent range. A good step towards decision-making magic and wilful magic.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Code: [Select]
[b][u]Metaconjuration[/u]
We use conjuration to summon a fully-formed magical spell at a distance. In this case an instantly detonating fireball spell.[/b]This is the project of high-level conjuration. Which ends with making any thing, any where. Combine it with communual ritual magic and you could make some extremely significant things appear at some extremely inacessible locations. The key thing being offsetting the ground-zero. We can do a month-long ritual to summon a 100 kilometre radius fireball and perform it from within an underground bunker.Code: [Select]
[b][u]Scootgun[/u]
We build an open wagon from crystal, add an extra two pairs of slightly-raised wheels on triangular stalks front-and-back for stability, stick our smallest cannon on it, add a metal rod to attract lightning instead of the cannon, and then put three pulse-jets at the back to make it go-fast.
Pulse-jet
A crystal tube with two necks with cages on one side and a tightly-fitting cork loose within the cages. A repeating fireball spell is remotely detonated between the two necks. The fireball pushes the front cork into the neck and [atmospheric medium] out the back. The sudden absence of the firball pulls the rear cork into the nec and pulls [atmospheric medium] into the front. This produces a jet of [atmospheric medium] in one direction in frequent pulses.
This design was a fairly obvious attempt to produce fireball-based propulsion. it started with a one-sided tube, but the fireball would suck the tube backwards after pushing it forwards. Then we tried a mechanical cork system to close it, but the cork kept getting pushed out. At that point we realised that the cork would be pushed closed if we had the correct mechanisms to do so, which was pretty easy with summoned parts.[/b]Basically a high-speed self-propelled antiair weapon. It should be too fast for firepots, too heavy for wind(until they do tornadoes), and too metal for lightning. The important thing, though, is that it is fast enough to catch them. Not so useful against their ground-forces because antimagic, but that would go for steam-engines too, at least this could be pushed...Code: [Select]
[b][u]Pillar of unmagic[/u]
By focusing all of our mathemagical and trigothaumical developments, along with our experience of the forever frost towers, we construct a great tower with an intricate core of quartz, with dimond studding on key locations allowing exposed magical pathways which permit fine control of the effect. This is, in essence, a giant antimagic charm, but capable of detailed attunement. It will, with careful handling and a large amount of time spent measuring its effects and trial-and-erroring precisely what is needed, be able to select a single spell and absorb all instances of it within a single theatre of battle.[/b]Turning off their wind spell would basically strange their airforce. Or maybe their levitation is a spell? It'd be kind of funny to see their whole air-force hit the ground at terminal velocity. It'd make up for our previously antimagic immune crystals suddenly disappearing...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 09, 2017, 04:37:56 pm
But in terms of mobile cannons, I believe we can do much better.
For one, the AS-HAC-1 is an entirely crystal cannon. Meaning it shouldn't be vulnerable to lightning. It's also relatively small and lightweight, making it a very practical choice to put on a vehicle.
The Pulse-jet seems a bit like reinventing the wheel. I don't think planes (the most obvious application) are a good idea at all when we have options like bird-based cavalry and the like, and with land vehicles we can just use the reliable steam engine instead of the pulse-jet. The steam engine is just more versatile and we can always spend a revision to make it more powerful, too.
I still really like the AS-APC-1 protector design, but let's try self-propelled artillery.
Future Design: AS-STW-1 "Watcher"
The STW-1 is an amazing breakthrough.
We put a
The AS-STW-1 is a very interesting design. To the outside, it looks like an entirely-crystal enclosed vehicle. Thanks to some clever mechanical work, a set of man-powered gears raises a large platform inside the vehicle upwards, and another set powers a sliding roof. The platform is configured to mount 3x AS-HAC-1s or 1x AS-HC1-E. (Though our Mathemagicians are willing to compromise down to two AS-HAC-1s) The platform can be raised to any height between its minimum and max heights, allowing for cover to be created to defend the cannon and operator while still allowing for fire outside. If it's too dangerous, the operator can simply lower the platform and close the roof. The new breech-loading mechanics of the cannons allow for easy, safe, and secure reloading without moving the cannon back or leaving the safety of the vehicle.
The platform and vehicle are very secure, and the cannons can be fired while the vehicle is moving, though for the most part the vehicle is designed to be "deployed" on a site.
The AS-STW-1 is also equipped with an AA Magegem array. This array of magegems is linked to the platform by crystal conduit, and by extension, the mounted weapons. The magegem array also powers the AS-STW-1's steam engine, which can be fit on such a relatively small vehicle thanks to the miniaturizations of the steam engine done with the design of the Restless. The Magegem Array allows for extended firing and very long usage of the steam engine.
The AS-STW-1 also holds extensive storage space for ammunition and water to supply its cannons for a very long duration.
The vehicle is relatively light-weight, even with its crystal armor. It should be able to move some degree faster than a Restless, though not that much more. It's powered by a single steam engine, and has space for up to four people. One person can drive while three people man the HC1-E or 3x AS-HAC-1s, one person can drive while two man the cannon(s), one person can drive while one mans the cannon(s), or one person can switch between driving and manning the cannon(s).
The Watcher is mostly intended for use with the crystal-bodied AS-HAC-1s and be used for an offensive or mobile anti-air role. Its durability means it can simply ignore any of Moskurg's weapons, and the cannons should survive all but a direct ballista bolt. And even then, with three AS-HAC-1s, one cannon down still leaves two more. That and even if a weapon operator is somehow caught unaware by a firebomb or the like from directly above, the vehicle can be crewed by just one person. Its Magegem array means it can easily be deployed without a wizard - it needs an accompanying mage just as much as it needs ammo, and in the field, a mage rarely recharging the array or new magegems allows it to continue operating independently.
TL;DR: A mobile cannon emplacement. Fits three(?) AS-HAC-1s or 1 HC1-E. Has a crew of four, but can operate with even just one man. Can fire while moving. Has a sliding roof and raising platform above/below its weapons to allow for very easy+quick deployment of its weapons, and the platform can be only partially raised to give its crew cover. Has lots of room for ammo, and has an extensive AA Magegem Array powering the weapons + the steam engine.
AS-SCV-1 "Landship"
The Steam Combat Vehicle is the first of its kind.
It has thick crystal armoring protecting it from anything Moskurg can throw at it. The utmost care has been given to ensure that there are no spots on the SCV-1 that may be vulnerable to fire, lightning, or bolt.
Extruding out of the front of the SCV-1 is the barrel of a HC1-E. As part of the SCV-1's design, the HC1-E here is made out of crystal in a simple material swap (Our Mathemagicians would like to extend this change to the rest of our HC1-Es if possible). The new reliable breech-loading system allows for the integrated HC1-E to be easily reloaded from inside the SCV-1.
Near the back, a AS-HAC-1 is mounted next to a crystal hatch on the top of the vehicle. The hatch is specifically designed to be safe and secure without compromising integrity when closed. The hatch can be opened and peaked out of for spotting for the AS-HAC-1, and the gears controlling the rotation and angling of the AS-HAC-1 are placed below the armor to allow for rotation of the cannon without risking danger. Most of the time during operation, this hatch should remain closed. The hatch is also used to depart and exit from the AS-STV-1, and can be used to spot for the main cannon when not in any kind of danger.
Small viewports dot parts of the AS-STV-1. These viewports are too small to allow harm to come to the AS-SCV-1's crew from outside, but allow the crew to see outside for both general awareness and to spot for the cannon. The driver's seat has levers for acceleration and rotation.
The steam engine is placed along the center of the cabin, and the rest of the space is used to store ammunition and water. There are seats for the crew of 3-4 as well. An apprentice is required in order to operate the cannons and steam engine too.
TL;DR: A steam engine "tank" equipped with a main HC1-E cannon with a barrel extruding from the front, and a AS-HAC-1 mounted on the top next to a hatch (with its rotation gear controls inside the cabin). Spotting can be done out the hatch or through the more secure viewports. Fits a crew of 3-4 and needs an apprentice to operate.
Both designs should probably be revised to be AM resistant.
The difference between the two designs is simple: The Watcher is meant as basically a mobile artillery platform and for mobile anti-air, while the Landship is meant to be used as a tank. The watcher's raising platform allows for easy spotting, deployment, and targeting. While the landship's secure HC1-E cannon requires the entire vehicle to rotate for most angles, and spotting is a bit harder.
What do people think would be better for a vehicle's armament: Multiple AS-HAC-1s or one HC1-E? The HC1-E has more destructive potential and more range but the AS-HAC-1s are smaller + more compact + easier to reload + easier to store ammo for.
Alternatively, we could revise a more compact version of the HA1 while trying to sacrifice little.
Also, we should do Crystal Optics for next turn. And I'm not even that sure about vehicles.
We'll see.
Post by: RAM on June 09, 2017, 05:03:36 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 09, 2017, 08:59:36 pm
That and it repairs itself from minor damage which helps a lot with lightning-induced damage even if crystal can be hit by it, right?
Post by: RAM on June 09, 2017, 09:27:54 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 09, 2017, 10:16:05 pm
This specialty cannon ball has nickle circuits and mage gems just below the surface. The first set create a super heated core of the cannon ball, similar to a highly concentrated fire wall spell. The second is a heat control circuit which forces the heat and pressure back inside the core. The result is metal that is super heated from solid to liquid to gas. The outside of the cannon ball becomes a shell of metal and spell casting parts that breaks on impact, destroying the heat control field. This results in the super heated metal gas exploding out in the direction of impact and incinerating anything it washes over. The cannon ball is designed to start heating as soon as it leaves the barrel of the cannon and looks just like any ordinary shell, from the outside.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 10, 2017, 12:19:09 am
Arstotzka does something entirely unexpected this year. Previously thought impossible, they build another cannon, that's smaller than their existing cannons. While many decry the AS-HAC-1 as a waste of magical effort, others are quick to point out the higher rate of fire, high muzzle velocity, all-crystal design, 360 degree firing arc, and brand-new sliding bolt-action breech-loader, which they've taken the liberty to append to all their existing cannons. It's been mounted on all their existing Crystalclads as an anti-air measure, and is cheap enough that they can afford to station a few in the field to combat carpetbombers overhead.
Moskurg, in an attempt to combat Arstotzka's overwhelming artillery advantage, has delved deeper into the field of Divination with their development of the Antichronic Reverbramancy spell. Designed to focus on the ever-branching possibilities of the future, the spell allows mages to enter a trance that lets the caster view these twisting, winding threads. Once a cataclysmic event is ensured to happen the mage can recognize the sudden choke-point in the branching future for what it is and warn his allies of his prediction. Skilled casters can gain a warning up to thirty seconds in advance, but less skilled casters like apprentices are lucky to get ten seconds. The mage is otherwise useless while casting, and staying under for more than ten minutes risks losing their mind to the flow of time permanently. For their revision, they go ahead and fix the innate inaccuracy of the lightning in their Wand of Thunderbolts, which has the nice benefit of also finally fixing their two-decade old Spear of Allah. Assuming the weather cooperates, they can finally use the spell for its intended purpose.
Thanks to their new breech-loading artillery, Arstotzka can now fire their HA1 artillery slightly faster. While this is nice by itself, the real benefit is that the cannons no longer need to tip down to allow new shells to be rammed down the barrel. This means the artillery doesn't need to be re-sighted between each firing event and can more reliably hit the same location. Moskurg combats this with their impressively-named Antichronic Reverbramancy, but the fact that mages must constantly dip in and out of the trance to maintain their grasp on the present means it sees a limited usefulness. It does save lives on occasion, but often the warning doesn't come soon enough to relocate, especially since Arstotzka has taken up the policy of blanketing an entire "square" with artillery fire. It would benefit from being able to stay in the trance longer, or allowing the mage to be useful in the meantime, or even simply giving a longer fore-warning, but as it is the spell doesn't provide a very large defensive bonus.
Carpet bombers are likewise met with frustration. The HAC-1 doesn't quite perform its intended role of "filling the skies with iron" as even with bolt-action breech-loading, a new round and fresh water must be loaded in each time. Arstotzkan mages instead track overhead targets, take careful aim, brace the tripod for recoil, and fire. Often times they miss, as the crude cross-hairs aren't exactly sophisticated and they're targeting a moving target high above. When they do hit, though, the effect is devastating. The high-caliber shells rip helmet-sized holes through both flesh and carpet alike, and even a glancing blow is typically lethal.
Moskurg fires back with their refined Wands of Thunderbolt. Their method of attack typically involves getting overhead and quickly firing off as many wands as they can , then tossing the entirety of their firestorm grenade saddlebag overboard. Being struck by lightning isn't enough to ruin an HA1 artillery piece, but it does cause enough damage to put it out of commission until repairs can be enacted. Hitting the operators tends to be more effective - anyone touching the artillery piece when it's struck will typically never fire another round. The Alsamma Safina does its job standing at extreme range, high and out of the firing range of HA1 and HAC-1's alike. It's a Very Expensive artillery piece that Arstotzka can't touch, and is often a sign of doom for the men on the ground.
Surprisingly, the HAC-1 proves to be effective in ground combat, despite being envisioned as an anti-air cannon. The high-velocity round is a line-of-sight weapon, and has a faster travel time and flatter trajectory than a longbow. Moskurg soldiers caught in the open can expect to be hit before they even know what's happening; the small round doesn't trigger Antichronic Reverbramancy, so the tranced-out mages on horseback fail to warn the party. The HAC-1's can't exactly be used to ambush, though, since Moskurgs Detect Ambush spell from their initial spellbook is still in effect.
At the end of the day, Arstotzka does a decent job of hitting Moskurgs at range, especially since cannons no longer need to be re-aimed between loadings. This, combined with their new HAC-1's preventing Moskurg War Pegasi from holding complete supremacy, provides the necessary advantage to take another section of jungle. Moskurg soldiers are still freezing to death, so even if their artillery detection spell was working perfectly, they'd still be suffering casualties - it's year-round cold, and though their lightning is now accurate they can't cast if snow clouds won't permit it. Even al-Mutriqa can't do that, though he does a solid job of raiding Arstozkan trains and preventing them from resupplying HA1 artillery pieces. Moskurg is lacking in their offensive capabilities, and are pushed back to the far edge of the jungle.
Arstotzka gains a section of jungle.
The mountains favor Arstotzka.
The cold, artillery barrages, and HAC-1's are enough to eliminate Moskurg soldiers in the ancient castles. Moskurg's heavy lifting is done through their carpet riders and airships, but it's not enough all on its own. With Myark at the lead, they're rather soundly defeated.
Arstotzka pushes Moskurg out of the mountains.
Arstotzka has regained the mountains. If they hold it for a year, they may use the metal bonus.
Rapid-firing, accurate, train-supplied, long-range artillery dominates in the plains.
Moskurg does their best, but ultimately they don't have the offensive punch that long, sustained artillery on entrenched positions does.
Arstotzka pushes Moskurg out of the plains.
Arstotzka gains control of the plains. If they hold it for a year, they may use the plains bonus.
The seas are, once again, no contest.
Unlike the rest of the continent, the Spear of Allah can be cast here. Previously, Moskurg avoided casting Storm Strike on open waters, as the waves caused by the storm affects their ships just as much as it does Arstotzka's. Now that their ships are all primarily fliers, it's less of a concern to keep the sea calm.
War Pegasi carpet bombers continue striking the exposed steam engines of Crystalclad ships, causing critical explosions. The HAC-1 does a fair bit of work here, with one loaded on each ship - Moskurg has learned not to underestimate a massed group of anti-air cannons all firing at once. The cannons even penetrate the Alsamma Safina ships, although the Adamantium covering manages to deflect all but the most square shots. Even then, it takes many shots before the ship goes down. In the meantime, the mages onboard call down the storm, and one-by-one call the Spear of Allah down on their enemies. Requiring little more than a visual on the target, the spell is critically effective on Arstotzka's ships. The Arstotzkan fleets in both the Eastern and Western seas are both completely annialated, and Moskurg takes control of both.
Moskurg gains control in the Eastern and Western Seas. Next turn they will be able to apply their naval bonus to both the jungle and plains theatres.
Revision Credit!!!
The Kings son, Bjorn Lodbrok, has recently come of age. He shows magical prowess; it's uncommon for nobility to join the ranks of the mages, but the King is insistent that he receive proper training if he is to one day lead the kingdom in this age of magic. The King is utterly without magical talent, however, and asks that you train his son in his stead. Please describe the training regime he's to be put on, and what spells heis to be taught. Remember that heis utterly untrained in the magical arts, and will likely be unable learn every spell in our arsenal - let alone be able to perform National Effort spells - in a single year.
Whichever side trains their heir to be a more competent mage will win a bonus revision for the next turn.
It is 939, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 939 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Behavior Rules. Please Read.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 10, 2017, 12:36:53 am
Anywways.
We're doing great! We just need to push the advantage at land a bit more, but more importantly, regain the advantage at sea. So for now I'm just going to make some quick design summaries. If no one else posts, I'll edit it fuller designs later.
Crystalclad MK2 (Name Pending)
The MK2 is completely enclosed in crystal, with systems allowing its weapons to safely fire out of the hull while retaining firing angles. The ship upgrades the steam engines to make it faster, and is big enough to fit an additional HC1-E and/or some number of AS-HAC-1s.
It being completely encased in crystal protects it against lightning, more weapons = better, and better speed is just good.
Crystal Optics (Revision probably)
Would just help now, and a lot in the future. Crystal Optics, in its base form, allows for a Crystal Spyglass that can be used for safe and precise long-range spotting far superior to the flare. Doesn't obsolete the flare, as it can still be used for communication.
Steam Rifles
Actually possible now, thanks to the AS-HAC-1. Would help against their carpets, in a sniper role, potentially in melee, and not much in skirmish. Would actually be quite useful at sea as our soldiers could snipe their ship crew, and eliminate their
If we do the Crystal Optics revision afterwards, we can have the revision actually do Crystal Scopes on the rifles that can also spot for cannons. Would make snipers with Steam Rifles super powerful.
APC
Equipped with an AS-HAC-1 turret, an armored APC could really help our soldiers in the field. Though I don't think we need to focus this much on land at the moment. But it would help secure our advantage at land by a lot, and we could potentially use the revision for something that helps at sea.
AS-HAC-2
A self-loading cannon. Would be much more useful as anti-air and in its other roles. Maybe automatic or semi-automatic, but its main feature is that it would use easy-to-load magazines and loads shells into the chamber by itself instead of requiring each shell to be loaded. See my AS-HAC-2 future design I posted earlier. It would also include the HC2's Steam Recycler to practically eliminate the need for water.
This would really help
Explosive + Flak Shells
Boring, but would be really useful. Explosive shells can be designed and would give our artillery in every theatre a huge benefit + make all our cannons better against armor(?). Then we can revise Flak Shells to basically end Moskurg's air domination, allowing us to advance at sea once more.
And of course, I'm sure there are also spells we could do. I still want the shade spell in general, but it unfortunately doesn't seem relevant enough to what we need to do this turn.
EDIT: One benefit of just making a spell is that we can use it to help towards the Revision Credit. I don't have much hope in winning over Moskurg, considering our Magitech probably isn't worth much here.
Also, reminder that we still have the Research Credit. I think we should do a landmark design this turn using it.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 10, 2017, 12:44:01 am
Post by: RAM on June 10, 2017, 12:58:16 am
A ritual requiring three apprentices and a more experienced leader upon a newly developed circuit that focuses the efforts of multiple wizards onto a single spell, binds the wizards to that spell, and stabilises(largely by averaging the results) the spell against minor mishaps or interruptions in the casting process. When the spell completes, the three apprentices enter a trance and become immobile, while the leader holds the spell until they are ready to activate it by providing summoning coordinates in bearing and altitude from their current position.
The spell has no theoretical limit on its maximum range or the size of the wasps, but there is a practical limit on the endurance of the wizards as they cannot eat, sleep, drink, or move their feet, for the duration. The accumulation of power from the ritual massively increase the maximum range, allowing it to reach enemy airships. The number of fire wasps has been reduced to only three, but these three wasps are controlled by the apprentices as though the wasps were their own(and only) bodies. We paid special attention to mental feedback and added extra insulation to ensure that apprentices not die when the wasps die. The wasps are also massively enlarged, often half the size of a grown soldier, with a stinger as large and strong as a steel spear and thrust with a muscular abdomen twice as wide as the strongest soldier's arm. But often it is enough to just smash a few jars filled with hotsauce that the keggers like to leave lying around...
Jetbirds
Hawks can't lift armour, Not even crystal armour. Fortunately, they can control flight! So we just need a way to move the armour for them. Regenerative crystal allows us to use much lighter crystals, especially complex hollow multilayered crystal structures to account for brief fractures while having a very low mass. This allows the construction of ultralight pulse-jets*. We affix a pulse-jet to the hawk's back, along with some light, structured crystal armour(With special wing reinforcement and goggles to protect against high speeds), a four-pronged lightning-bypass, and some lethal crystal talon and beak extensions.
*Pulse-jet
A crystal tube with two necks with cages on one side and a tightly-fitting cork loose within the cages. A repeating fireball spell is remotely detonated between the two necks. The fireball pushes the front cork into the neck and [atmospheric medium] out the back. The sudden absence of the firball pulls the rear cork into the nec and pulls [atmospheric medium] into the front. This produces a jet of [atmospheric medium] in one direction in frequent pulses.
Pillar of unmagic
By focusing all of our mathemagical and trigothaumical developments, along with our experience of the forever frost towers, we construct a great tower with an intricate core of quartz, with dimond studding on key locations allowing exposed magical pathways which permit fine control of the effect. This is, in essence, a giant antimagic charm, but capable of detailed attunement. It will, with careful handling and a large amount of time spent measuring its effects and trial-and-erroring precisely what is needed, be able to select a single spell and absorb all instances of it within a single theatre of battle.
Plains bonus is manpower or horses or anything else that makes sensePlains hawks?
Grain?
Post by: RAM on June 10, 2017, 01:20:13 am
Quote
0 Crystalclad MK2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480515#msg7480515)CC2 needs enclosed turrets. Otherwise jhust revise it to use some covered chimneys to breath for the boilers while they are protected. Or maybe a summon water spell?
0 Crystal Optics (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480515#msg7480515)
0 Steam Rifles (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480515#msg7480515)
0 APC (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480515#msg7480515)
0 AS-HAC-2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480515#msg7480515)
0 Explosive + Flak Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480515#msg7480515)
0 Ritual of the Enflamed Wasp (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534)
0 Jetbirds (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534)
0 Pillar of unmagic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534)
0 http://
Optics would be better with some light enchantment derived from flare spells. We already know how to refine light, so getting it to make a view brighter should be within the bounds of plausibility. Night vision would, obviously, be very nice, and consistent illumination conditions would help a lot with sighting in general.
Ground stuff isn't enough. Anything that can't shoot at extreme range is pretty much worthless at this point. So long as everyone has armies in the field nobody can claim the field.
I feel that face-seeking shells are probably plausible if a wizard does it.
Ritual is mostly about getting extreme-range spells, which seems important unless we want our own flying vehicles, which would be silly considering that we can just summon stuff. And I don't thinkthat they want to be using antimagic around their magically-held-aloft devices.
Jetbirds are jetbirds. Should be somewhat lightning resistant, lethal, and crazylolepicsome.
Pillar of unmagic to turn off their wind, or levitation, or whatever one spell they are using to automatically win a single region... Roflstomp the desert by making their whole army crash and die.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 10, 2017, 02:07:55 am
Post by: RAM on June 10, 2017, 02:30:34 am
We need to concentrate on the seas. The spell they are using is devastating us. I don't even know how we could counter complete control of the storms.well, a floating tower of forever frost would probably do it...
Post by: andrea on June 10, 2017, 02:39:45 am
Against big waves, a possible solution would be a big, heavy ship. Or maybe make flyers of our own? we have the temperature magic to make hot air baloons, I would think. Or, keep increasing our falcons until we can ride them ( falcon riders with fireballs and rifles, yes!)
or we could not worry excessively this turn. Only place where not losing ground truly matters is mountain and that is unaffected by sea.
That side, if we do, for example, rifles or similar this turn they would have to be crystal made, because we don't have the metal bonus yet.
@Chiefwaffles about HAC-2 , the reason we don't have a steam regenerator for the cannons is that steam needs to escpae the barrel to actually propel the projectile most efficiently. You aren't recovering much water without losing some projectile power, or adding magic to recover steam.
A better solution may be summoning water.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 10, 2017, 02:41:02 am
What if we make a dogwood circuit + mage gem "bomb" that is carried by our falcons. They drop it off on the enemy airships and when they leave, removing the anti magic field, an acorn inside the bomb rapidly grows into a full sized tree, causing the ship to fall due to added weight. Just one getting through will drop the ship!
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 10, 2017, 02:46:54 am
Design: AS-SPB-3 "Dreadnought"
(Uses Research Credit)
The Dreadnought is an astounding example of Arstotzkan engineering. Even bigger than a Crystalclad, a Dreadnought brings all our engineering experience together to be made.
The ship is, of course, made using a completely crystal hull. The shape of the ship has been tweaked from the earlier Crystalclad to avoid capsizing in bad weather, and some very minor tweaks were made to the crystal used in flooring to give it a tad bit more friction and thus preventing its crew from slipping.
Instead of a typical helm on top of the ship, we use a new room type - the Bridge. The Bridge is raised from the rest of the vessel and is completely enclosed. Inside the bridge lies (relatively) comfortable seating for the more senior crew of the ship, and the controls for acceleration and steering. We've brought over our improvements in mechanical controls for the steam engine from the Restless here, making controlling the Dreadnought easier than a Crystalclad. Cut through the crystal here are viewing ports to allow the bridge crew to see outside for spotting and steering. The ports are quite large in order to avoid sacrificing visibility and could theoretically allow an extremely lucky ballista bolt to hit the bridge, but the bolt would have to be coming from a perfect angle to do so, not even possible for their lucky shot spell to reliably hit. But the viewing ports can be closed, and because the interior is also made of crystal, a bolt getting in wouldn't do much.
A notable difference from the original Crystalclad is the layout of the Dreadnought. It's specifically designed to enclose its weapons, crew, and engine. There should be nothing on the exterior of the ship not made of crystal, and nothing that'd be vulnerable to attack from outside. Everything has been put inside the multiple-deck Crystalclad.
Perhaps the biggest innovation of the Dreadnought is the layout of its weapons. The Dreadnought uses "turrets", based off of the design of the AS-HAC-1. These turrets are essentially coverings for our cannons. They can be rotated up/down and side/side using the same style of gears used in the AS-HAC-1, but scaled up. The turret base is larger to allow for a crew to operate the cannon from within, and everything from the base to the barrel is enclosed in crystal.
Each turret is able to rotate up to 60 (or 50) degrees up, and with 360 degrees of horizontal rotation. Each turret has a magazine stored under-deck, filled with water and ammo. The magazine is accessible from the turret base to allow for quick reloading of a turret.
The Dreadnought has two turrets - the first turret is an HA1, and the second is actually two HC1-Es in the same base effectively making a turret with two barrels.
Located on the front and back of the Dreadnought's exterior are two AS-HAC-1s. These cannons are built as a part of the ship, and include some crystal-based protection for the operator, while their ammunition is easily accessible from a crystal-enclosed magazine.
A simple Magegem battery is connected to every magitech item in the ship via Crystal conduit. While the battery can't last for any amount of time powering any part of the ship, it allows the ship's mage(s) to simply sit in one location and power the entire ship at once, instead of having to power each individual piece of magitech.
Finally, the Dreadnought uses a "screw propeller" - a minor innovation that harnesses the mechanical power from the steam engines more efficiently than our paddles in order to move the ship. The Dreadnought's screw propeller allows it to move notably faster with the same amount of power, though this is a bit more low priority than the rest of the design. Our extensive experience with harnessing mechanical power since we made the Crystalclad should help significantly here.
The result is obvious. The Dreadnought has increased firepower - an HA1, two HC1-Es, and two AS-HAC-1s. The Dreadnought should at the very least match the Crystalclad in speed, if it isn't faster already thanks to its screw propeller. There are no weakpoints as any possible weakpoint and everything important is moved inside the crystal hull. The HA1 and 2x HC1-Es are built in turrets, allowing for increased firing angles and protecting them from attack thanks to the crystal-based protection of the turrets.
The Dreadnought should become a symbol of Arstotzkan dominance at sea. Its HA1 may not be able to fire extra-LOS right off the bat, but it can bombard shore targets based on flares, reliably+easily punch through their armor, and when we improve our spotting it will be able to fire extra-LOS.
Entirely Crystal-Enclosed Hull
The ship is entirely enclosed in crystal. The steam engines, weapons, crew - everything - are inside the hull. The ship gets the Crystalworks bonus, and is notably larger than a Crystalclad.
Bridge
This is mostly just flavor/fluff for the ship. It shouldn't contribute to the difficulty at all, as it's just a room in a certain place. It does ensure we can continue spotting though.
Armament
Two turrets - one HA1 turret and one 2x HC1-E turret. Two AS-HAC-1s are placed on the front and back of the ship for protection from nearby threats and carpets. The AS-HAC-1s are made out of crystal already, and some basic protection has been added for the operator to prevent them from immediately dying.
The turrets are basically just crystal enclosures for the cannons that can rotate using a scaled-up version of the mechanics behind the AS-HAC-1's rotation. Think like a much simple version of this. (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/16in_Gun_Turret.jpg)
A turret can be rotated 360 degrees horizontally and hopefully up to ~60 degrees upwards.
Magical Conduit
A basic magegem battery is linked to the weapons and steam engines via crystal conduit. The battery shouldn't add to the cost, and also shouldn't really be able to last for any amount of time whatsoever. The point of the battery is to allow one(?) mage to power the entire ship from one location. Lower priority.
Screw Propeller
A screw propeller(s?) is used for propulsion instead of paddle wheels. Lower-priority, but also pretty simple to do and should notably increase speed.
TL;DR: Basically, a large crystal battleship.
I'm thinking of including basic self-loading for the turrets. If people think it's possible, I'll add it in. Also let me know if you think there's any part that's too ambitious.
Quote
1 AS-SPB-3 "Dreadnought" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480574#msg7480574) (w/ Research Credit): ChiefwafflesI removed my design summaries from the list to avoid making it unnecessarily huge. If someone wants one of the designs that I posted earlier, feel free to write your own version of it, copy+paste one of my actual designs for it from before, or just ask me to do that/write a new one.
0 Explosive + Flak Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480515#msg7480515)
0 Ritual of the Enflamed Wasp (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534)
0 Jetbirds (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534)
0 Pillar of unmagic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534)
Anyways, here's what we need to counter:
1.) Their air units. The AS-HAC-1 + Falcons make their carpets manageable, but at least on sea, their airships take too long to be destroyed and can destroy our Crystalclads with lightning before they're destroyed.
2.) Their lightning. They're upgrading this and it's scary, given how powerful lightning is against our magitech.
3.) Their time
EDIT: I'm not completely sold on the Dreadnought, since it is only going to help us at sea. Best case scenario, it helps us much later when we gain control of the seas, but that takes a while. I'd be fine with something else, but at the moment I think the Dreadnought is the best option.
Regarding the Revision challenge, here's what I got so far:
First, we send the heir to the Academy. At the Academy, he will be treated with the utmost of priority. Our best teachers will be assigned to him to teach him the fundamentals and theories of magic. If we're going to have a ruler in this era of magic, the ruler should know exactly how magic works and how to exploit it. The courses are extensive and hard, but given that Bjorn is of noble blood and given the most attention with the best teachers, it shouldn't be a problem for him. By the end of his studying at the Academy, he shall know everything there is to know about the theory of Magic. Mathemagics, Circuits, conjuration, energy conductivity, and more. Of course, his time at the Academy will be much less than other students due to the fact that he has other things to do in the year.
Once he has learned the bases and theories of magic at the Academy from our best teachers, he shall accompany Myark. Myark's top task will be to (safely!) teach him magic through practical experience. Bjorn Lodbrok, now knowledgable in the fine points of magic and under the guidance of Myark, should learn spells easily.
At first, Bjorn shall be given his own top-of-the-line Falcon. This should take a relatively short amount of time, and give him plenty of time in the field to become attuned with what's essentially his familiar.
Then, Bjorn shall learn the spell most important to Arstotzkan society - the fireball. Using his wisdom from the Academy and Myark's aid, Bjorn shall learn how to expertly use the fireball and all its variants.
Next is the frost tower. Myark shall guide Bjorn through the inner workings of a Tower of Frost and how it applies its effects to the theatre. This will be a short and quick task, given Bjorn's experience with the fireball at this point, and his knowledge of circuitry and the like from the Academy.
Once this is finished, Myark and Bjorn shall embark upon one of our Crystalclads on a voyage. During the voyage, Bjorn will learn how to expertly operate our weapons and cannons, which should all be easy thanks to his experience with Fire magic at this point. Bjorn shall also be taught in depth on the practical effects of crystal, repairing it in the field, and summoning new crystal. This voyage will have Bjorn become a practical expert on operating Arstotzkan machinery such as the steam engine and cannons, and give him some vital knowledge of the more gritty details of Crystal not given as much detail at the Academy.
The voyage shall end at the port closest to Arstotzka, but not immediately at it. Once his voyage ends, Bjorn will operate a Restless using his newfound knowledge of Arstotzkan Magitech a short distance to Arstotzka.
Finally, Bjorn will end his trip at the Crystalworks, where he gets an indepth look on how crystal is made.
TL;DR:
1.) Short time at the Academy where Bjorn is given extreme attention + our best teachers. Here, Bjorn will learn the theories and math behind magic and how exactly it works and how Arstotzkan Mathemagics uses it. (And crystal stuff of course.)
2.) Given Falcon familiar to grow familiar with (heh) throughout the rest of the year.
3.) Acccompanies Myark to the field where Bjorn will learn how to effectively use the Fireball and its variants.
4.) Crystalclad voyage back to a port near Arstotzka. Here, Myark will teach Bjorn practical use of our weaponry and the steam engine. Bjorn will also learn about the more gritty details of crystal, like field repair and how it self-regenerates.
5.) Bjorn operates a Restless from the port to Arstotzka, using all his knowledge learned thus far to competently run a steam engine.
6.) Bjorn arrives back at Arstotzka, where he takes a brief tour of the Crystalworks to learn how modern Crystal is made.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 10, 2017, 02:55:04 am
Edit: Uhh why not just have clear crystal for the windows instead of holes? We could even have sliding door hatches on the turrets that are clear and moved right before firing so they can aim but will only be vulnerable right when firing.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 10, 2017, 02:57:17 am
Whichever side trains their heir to be a more competent mage will win a bonus revision for the next turn.We should use every resource we have. Using the best teachers, best field experiences, and Myark, will make the best mage.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 10, 2017, 02:59:29 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 10, 2017, 03:01:19 am
I mean have him be near the fighting in some way that he can contributed to in a limited degree. Of course he's going to be intentionally kept safe over the others. That and he'd have Myark protecting him.
Post by: andrea on June 10, 2017, 03:02:10 am
Post by: RAM on June 10, 2017, 04:44:03 am
So:
Personal tutelege by Myark
Mathemagics 101
Thaumonometry 101
Geomagry 101
Streamlined Fireball
Boiler-scale Firewall(for the convenience of a warm hearth or hot stove at will or Kegger-burning at will)
Web
Charging and draining magems.(Do this first so that he always has magic available with which to train)
Training with heavy armour
experience with sensing antimagic from charms and knowing exactly how far a charm needs to be to lose its effectiveness, so that he may use a charm for protection but quickly remove it, recover his magic from gems, and then be a full wizard in moments.
What we are up against is probably mind-reading. Hopfully they will hook theirs up to Aye'Muh'Treason who is experienced with being a magical prodigy and the kid will be filled with knowledge that he has no practical experience using and insufficent magical talent to use.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 10, 2017, 04:48:03 am
It's just too much to go ahead making a different type of transparent crystal just so we can have covered viewports. I think it's possible, but not worth it. It should be extremely unlikely for a bolt to get through the viewport, and even if it does, not much damage should be done. And by "extremely unlikely", that's exactly what I mean.
If we had Crystal Optics I would do it, but we don't.
Also, my idea for countering their time magic:
Future Revision: Chronic Dampening Crystal
We embed our crystal with an extremely mild form of anti-magic. The anti-magic is so mild that even crystal can handle the absorbed magic forever, as it can release the extraordinarily tiny amounts of captured energy faster than it absorbs it.
The anti-magic effect created by doing this is too minor to affect any of our spells or magitech. We could build a castle out of it and there would be zero difference in spells and magic cast there. The anti-magic effect is so mild it's extremely easy to imbue our crystals with it, in fact. The same goes for Moskurger spells, too. This won't stop any of their spells being cast. Except for maybe one.
Their timemagic is a threat to Arstotzkan dominance. The mild anti-magic effect of Chronic Dampening Crystal may not influence magic on any noticeable scale, but it does to Moskurg's time spell. We know that their time magic uses, well, it uses magic. So therefore, it relies on ambient magic to work. If we effectively "silence" our creations and their surroundings from this ambient magic, then logically the Moskurger mages shouldn't be able to see them before it happens. If ambient magic isn't affected, then their spell shouldn't see any changes. Anything near our crystal will be effectively silenced from this magical timeline.
Due to the prevalence of crystal, this effect should be widespread. The HA1 and HC1-E may not be made out of crystal, but their operators will carry crystal weaponry. If this proves to not be enough for the metal HA1 and HC1-E, then we can simply either attach bits of crystal to the artillery or issue very cheap "crystal charms".
And hey, maybe this could even counter their Detect Ambush spell.
And now for another design because I feel a bit like we turned our magitech into arms race. Seriously. The only "magical" thing about the Dreadnought design is the Magegem battery. Every other improvement doesn't use magic at all.
I mean, I'm fine with not using magic as much, but I would like a little bit of pizazz in Wands Race.
Design: Aether Blink
Uses Research Credit
We have extreme knowledge in conjuration. It's the basis behind the Crystal that we study and know so well. It's one of the first things our apprentices learn at the academy.
So what if we truly exploited our knowledge here? We summon crystal from the Aether, and we've seen it dispelled back into the Aether. We even figured out how to sever crystal's connection to the Aether.
What if we "dispel" our own forces?
A Wizard can effectively use a carefully-made spell reversing the effects of regular conjuration. Instead of summoning things here from the Aether, we summon ourselves into the Aether. We make our forces disappear. This can be done at scales as large as a Crystalclad and even bigger. This isn't just invisibility, but rather, removing ourselves temporarily from reality.
Unfortunately, it takes large amounts of energy to accomplish this. While we don't know yet if it requires more skilled mages to do it, we do know that regardless of the person casting the spell, we can only hold our forces in the Aether for a short period of time. But we can use this. Movement in the Aether is... different. It corresponds differently to reality than one may assume. Moving a step forwards in the Aether can result in appearing 50 steps forward in reality. Obstacles don't exist in the Aether like they do in the real world, and we can move in any direction inside the Aether.
Imagine the potential. A Crystalclad can Blink forward to avoid enemy fire and flank enemies. Our soldiers can Blink past walls. A mage on a Crystalclad can Blink a squad upwards onto an airship. Artillery and people can be Blinked out of harm's way. A Squad can blink away from artillery striking them.
TL;DR: A blink spell. "Teleport" our forces relatively short distances. Can be done to constructions like the Crystalclad or Artillery, and/or people. This is done by effectively summoning ourselves into the place where we summon things from, then exploiting this place for brief periods of time to move in a direction, and have our distance traveled in the Aether translate into further distances effectively traveled in reality. (Not necessarily 1:50. That was just an example.)
How does this counter their air advantage? We can blink our stuff out of harm's way both on sea and land, and we can board their unprepared airships with boarding parties.
Potential: We can increase the range, into a teleport spell. We can increase duration, to allow our soldiers to disappear from existence for extended periods of time. We can even do some stuff to allow for guided projectiles! (I got some fluff ready for that!) Lots of things.
I'm voting for this in addition to the Dreadnought. Also, just as a note, I prefer ordering proposals in order of vote number. I'm fine if people organize it in some other way and will respect that, but when adding proposals I like it in that order.
Quote
1 AS-SPB-3 "Dreadnought" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480574#msg7480574) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles
1 Aether Blink (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480615#msg7480615) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles
0 Ritual of the Enflamed Wasp (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534)
0 Jetbirds (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534)
0 Pillar of unmagic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534)
@RAM: Just in general: I think teaching him the fundamentals and theories behind magic is important because a good ruler would know how magic works to best exploit it. Operating Magitech is important so he'll always be able to operate independently in the future magitech-heavy world. Spells I don't care as much on.
Just a note for when we start focusing more-so on his training, after the Revision phase.
Post by: RAM on June 10, 2017, 05:24:53 am
It should be extremely unlikely for a bolt to get through the viewportIsn't "extremely unlikely" shots exactly what they specialise in? "Luck not skill" is practically their raison d'etre.
...
@RAM: Just in general: I think teaching him the fundamentals and theories behind magic is important because a good ruler would know how magic works to best exploit it. Operating Magitech is important so he'll always be able to operate independently in the future magitech-heavy world. Spells I don't care as much on.
Just a note for when we start focusing more-so on his training, after the Revision phase.
But a king doesn't need to operate independantly. A king needs to be able to demonstrate their authority and make sure their doors are locked and their food is clean. Along with knowing the practicalities of governance. So long as they know that aiming a cannon is difficult they will know not to expect one to shoot an apple off of their shoulder at 1000 paces. They don't need to be able to actually shoot one themselves when they have a whole army to do that sort of thing for them. It would probably be best for them to know that they are ignorant of the more advanced elements of mathemagics than to believe themselves to have mastered it and to personally meddle in all the details. And if they set about to learn this all themselves later then so much the better for their actual understanding of the subject.
What I want is someone who nows how to wear armour in a parade.
throw a fireball over people's heads to intimidate opposition and embolden support.
Personally ward a room to tend to secret matters.
Handle an antimagic charm when potentially exposed to mind readers.
Use a bag of magems to demonstrate more magical power than an expert wizard holds and to be able to train at magic without worrying about their supply.
To surround someone with webbing to intimidate them at the prospect of being unable to escape.
And to have all the academic knowledge to, with some assistance, personally verify any technical documentation that they might be presented with, but not needing to produce such technical documentation themselves.
There should be dozens of people constantly available to be of assistance. The king needs personal power and basic competence. There really sin;t any benefit to beign able to run the country single-handedly and they should have enough juice to use any magical devices that they would have reason to be using. Teaching them to fire a cannon or operate the flagship is just asking for them to get themselve's killed...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 10, 2017, 05:30:58 am
Isn't "extremely unlikely" shots exactly what they specialise in? "Luck not skill" is practically their raison d'etre.It should be very obvious that "extremely unlikely" is factoring in lucky shot. This isn't just "You have to get a lucky shot" but "The bolt has to be at this exact angle in this exact position at this exact time" in order to just slide through the viewport. Their Lucky Shot isn't that good. With bolts, they can hit sites with great accuracy but not exact points like this.
EDIT: To make an example, it'd be the same as one of their ballistae directly hitting the head of a moving human at Extreme range.
Whichever side trains their heir to be a more competent mage will win a bonus revision for the next turn.Note the wording.
It's "competent mage", not "competent ruler" or "most intimidating ruler". But "Competent Mage".
We want Bjorn to be well versed in the most essential of magic in Arstotzka. We don't want to teach him niche spells and techniques while leaving the base, more important parts, left untouched on. A competent mage knows how magic works. They know how to exploit it. They're skilled with magic itself, not just a few words and motions of the hand for spells.
We want a ruler competent in magic, not someone who knows a few party tricks.
EDIT: JUST TRY AND STOP ME
Design: Manipulate
Uses Research Credit
Really, conjuration is simple when you think about it. Boiled down to its essence, it's nothing more than a fancy way of retrieving things. Sure, those things may be in different places than just "reality," but ultimately it's just fetching something.
So what if we applied this principle to something already in reality? What if we tried to summon something that already exists? The Mathemagicians in charge of the project approached it with the intention of being able to essentially teleport items and constructions to the user, but were surprised by the results.
Conjuration doesn't exactly have the same force in it when applying it to items already present in reality, but it does something. It pulls the object to the user of the spell with considerable force. The force tends to scale logarithmically with mass - more mass means more force pulling the object, but the increase in force gets smaller as the mass increases further.
The range is very respectable and of high importance to our Mathemagicians. The higher the range, the better.
The practical result is obvious. Our mages can manipulate the battlefield with this. They may be able to just pull objects to them, but imagine the potential! Our mages can stun enemies and make them vulnerable by simply pulling them with Manipulate. Equipment can be easily retrieved at a distance. Then there's the potential!
But perhaps the biggest use is against Moskurg's air units. Their carpet riders can be pulled off their carpets. Their carpets can be pulled out of the sky. And their airships can be pulled downwards. With just one average mage using Manipulate to pull in a Moskurg airship, the airship begins to suffer a notable decline in height and will continue doing so until the mage is eliminated or stops of their own will. Multiple mages can rip an airship from the sky! Using Manipulate on airships with enough mages can just crash the airship into the ground, and even one mage can use Manipulate in order to bring an airship down enough so our artillery can fire at it.
Manipulate can also be used, when in range, to disrupt artillery emplacements and fortifications. A Moskurger Ballista can be pulled off its emplacement, potentially even destroying it, damaging it, causing it to fall down, or at least heavily disrupting its operation.
TL;DR:
Potential: Oh boy, just imagine what we could do with this. Upgrade its power, make it able to push/lift as well...
We could do so much with this.
And this spell totally is not force powers, and I'm totally not trying to recreate the Star Destroyer scene from the Force Unleashed, but with Manipulate and an airship. Definitely not.
Post by: helmacon on June 10, 2017, 11:04:57 am
Use summoning and mind training to make Crystal Golems controlled directly by our mages. From this, we develop mind control. Good for getting Intel, and assassinating enemy commanders and mages. Their air ships wouldn't be so great if the pilot flies it into the ground.
I am in favor of having Myark spend the entire time training the future king.
((I also really like the blink spell, but I think it's a little too complex for us right now. We need more basis in it first. Moving minds to moving people?))
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 10, 2017, 12:21:10 pm
Ice Breaker Glacial Battleship
Using cooling circuits and control of the ice a massive ship is created with crystal emplacements on visible surface areas. The ship is run on several steam engines embedded deep in the ice with crystal external fixtures. The ship can self repair the thick layers of ice and naturally floats. Twelve cannon emplacements dot the surface, protected by thick crystal walls and sliding hatches. Mages are generally safe in the core of the ship, where they power all the various parts and oversee regeneration. There should be room for dozens of birds and a full squad of soldiers.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 10, 2017, 12:27:18 pm
Blink spell could potentially use a stepping stone, but that's not worth it I feel. Blink should be attempted as-is or just left some, really.
I think we need some kind of defense against lightning. Our weapons all work but right now their airships can still cast enough lightning before they die and their carpets can mass uo and get lightning strikes in before they die. That it just massively increased offense.
Basically I think we need some way to either protect our stuff from lightning or some way to annihilate their air units before they get too close.
Right now I'm leaning towards explosive+flak shells. Helps in every theatre by a lot. Probably no research credit though.
Post by: Andres on June 10, 2017, 12:31:47 pm
AS-SPA: This steam-powered aircraft represents the pinnacle of mathemagic and superior Arstotzkan industrial design. It is a gyrocopter (https://i.ytimg.com/vi/3GnX1MzLSxQ/maxresdefault.jpg), featuring two rotors (a large one for lift and a small one for control), a built-in HAC-1, and full crystal construction which includes the steam engine itself.
Quote
DESIGN
1 AS-SPB-3 "Dreadnought" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480574#msg7480574) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles
1 Aether Blink (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480615#msg7480615) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles
0 Ritual of the Enflamed Wasp (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534)
0 Jetbirds (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534)
0 Pillar of unmagic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534)
1 AS-SPA (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480764#msg7480764) (w/ Research Credit): Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 10, 2017, 12:37:32 pm
Unless I'm missing something here?
And now for another design.
Design: Mindscreech
Using the same principles displayed in our mindmagic with falcons, we can use this spell to, in a way, stun others.
We use magic to channel extremely disruptive thoughts into a group's mind. They interpret this as an almost constant screaming while in constant pain. The victims are unable to do anything, including operating weapons or magic. The spell can be channeled at quite a decent range and can be focused towards groups of people, such as the crew of an airship.
With this spell, we can completely stun the crew of airships while our weapons take care of them, or stun carpet riders and cause them to fall off their carpets of their own accord.
Post by: Andres on June 10, 2017, 12:44:49 pm
We don't have a design credit. We have a Research Credit.((Got the names mixed up. Fixed.))
Unless I'm missing something here?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 10, 2017, 12:53:37 pm
Design: AS-SPA-1
Uses Research Credit
Too long have we allowed Moskurg to control the sky.
Perhaps it's a good thing. They've grown complacent with their "airships" and carpets. They don't know how to truly utilize the nature of air warfare. But we do.
The AS-SPA-1 is what we call a gyrocopter (https://i.ytimg.com/vi/3GnX1MzLSxQ/maxresdefault.jpg) - it houses a single steam engine that powers two rotors, one for lift and a smaller one for control. The entire construction is made out of crystal, making it tough, light, and cheap.
The steam engine is also made of crystal, making it lighter and more durable, especially given the crystal self-regeneration. It also benefits from the miniaturization of the steam engine that occurred during the Restless project. If required, we're willing to increase the power of the steam engine as part of the project.
Nickel circuitry powers the vehicle. Using techniques learned from countless past designs and the timer incorporated into the newer Equalizer, we can successfully make circuitry "smart" enough to allow for easy control of the steam engine, cannon, and rotors.
This is a single-seat vehicle. The single seat is open-air, though it has a cage-like design giving decent protection against arrows and other projectiles while its closed top protects the occupant from lightning.
An AS-HAC-1 is integrated into the front of the cockpit, with its swivel controls accessible to the driver from inside. Ammunition is also stored in the aircraft - not enough for extended bombardment, but more than enough to easily defeat its foes in the air. The AS-SPA-1 can always simply quickly return to base for reloading, after all.
The AS-HAC-1 is useful against any target - ground or air. Carpets can be shot down, airships can be shot at where their armor is lacking, and the ground can be bombarded from above.
A basic integrated AA Magegem buffer is designed to allow for up to a minute of flight with a mundane user (but no use of the cannon). This allows mage pilots to be able to switch their complete focus onto other things without constantly paying some attention to the engine.
The gyrocopter is also light enough to be stored on a Crystalclad for quick deployment at sea. Given its armor and the lacking air-to-air weapons Moskurg has, just using one AS-SPA-1 per ship shouldn't be of issue. This pushes a Crystalclad's weight limit, but during combat the AS-SPA-1 should be deployed regardless, so it shouldn't affect a Crystalclad's combat performance. At land, the Gyrocopter can be transported via train, fly itself to the theatre, or by some regular method. Makeshift landing sites can very easily be prepared by our soldiers.
Disregarding ammunition for its cannon and the needs of its pilot, the AS-SPA-1 can stay in the air indefinitely. It can fly across the sea, land - anything. This combined with its tough crystal construction means that it can very effectively close the gap between it and an airship, continue operating at sea without a Crystalclad, and much more.
TL;DR: A 1-seat crystal gyrocopter armed with an AS-HAC-1. It may not have extreme firepower but it's very durable, can stay in the air indefinitely, be very effective against their airships + carpets + ground forces, and just secure the air in general. Can serve as a scout too. The crystal construction + crystal regen should make it resistant to pretty much anything they have. A closed top prevents lightning from hitting the pilot, it has a crystal engine eliminating that weak point. A cage-like design protecting the cockpit should give some protection against direct projectile attacks too.
Quote
DESIGNI can make changes if requested
1 AS-SPB-3 "Dreadnought" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480574#msg7480574) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles
0 Aether Blink (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480615#msg7480615) (w/ Research Credit):
0 Ritual of the Enflamed Wasp (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534)
0 Jetbirds (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534)
0 Pillar of unmagic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534)
1 AS-SPA (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480764#msg7480764) (w/ Research Credit): Andres
1 AS-SPA-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480776#msg7480776) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles
EDIT: Added Andres' requested stuff.
EDIT2: Changed Magegem stuff based on what Evicted said.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 10, 2017, 12:58:38 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 10, 2017, 01:01:17 pm
By "AA Magegem Battery" I mean multiple AA Magegems connected in series. Not enough to raise the effective expense of the component to Very Expensive, but hopfully enough to just give 10 minutes of flight. It's just for the steam engine, which I assume is our most energy-efficient design.
If it's not enough, then Evicted just won't include it. It doesn't add to the complexity of the design.
Post by: Andres on June 10, 2017, 01:22:51 pm
Quote
DESIGN
1 AS-SPB-3 "Dreadnought" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480574#msg7480574) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles
0 Aether Blink (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480615#msg7480615) (w/ Research Credit):
0 Ritual of the Enflamed Wasp (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534)
0 Jetbirds (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534)
0 Pillar of unmagic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534)
0 AS-SPA (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480764#msg7480764) (w/ Research Credit): Andres
2 AS-SPA-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480776#msg7480776) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, Andres
I can make changes if requested.1. Change "making it both tough and cheap." to "making it tough, light, and cheap."
2. Include the presence of circuitry.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 10, 2017, 01:33:10 pm
Cheap can be cast by any Wizard or Apprentice
Expensive can only by cast by a Wizard
Very Expensive can only be cast by a group of wizards working in tandem, or a very high-level wizard depending on the nature of the spell.
National Effort can only be cast by Myark
Right now your gems really aren't powerful enough to act as a huge battery. They can be used as a sort of buffer, so that a caster can look away or do something for a few seconds without casting, but they require a circuit and a bunch of low-level gems in a group increase cost. You got away with the current expense level for Crystalworks using the A gem batteries because I justified it as a one-time expense, rather than a machine you have to keep building.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 10, 2017, 01:47:04 pm
To reiterate how expense levels work for mages:
Cheap can be cast by any Wizard or Apprentice
Expensive can only by cast by a Wizard
Very Expensive can only be cast by a group of wizards working in tandem, or a very high-level wizard depending on the nature of the spell.
National Effort can only be cast by Myark
Right now your gems really aren't powerful enough to act as a huge battery. They can be used as a sort of buffer, so that a caster can look away or do something for a few seconds without casting, but they require a circuit and a bunch of low-level gems in a group increase cost. You got away with the current expense level for Crystalworks using the A gem batteries because I justified it as a one-time expense, rather than a machine you have to keep building.
As a quick question, what are our wizards actually casting right now? None of the spells we have seem to be used. Mostly because we are making cannons and boats and our spells are useless.
Post by: Andres on June 10, 2017, 01:50:24 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 10, 2017, 01:55:17 pm
GM, I have questions about our anti-magic shells: why aren't they more useful? Why aren't they being used to disable the magical protection of the enemy ships? Why aren't they being fired at enemy air assets so that even if they completely miss they'll still take them out by getting them within range of the anti-magic effect?
They are very expensive. We are basically shooting expensive gems at them. Lots of expensive gems.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 10, 2017, 02:01:37 pm
As a quick question, what are our wizards actually casting right now? None of the spells we have seem to be used. Mostly because we are making cannons and boats and our spells are useless.
[/quote]
Your mages and apprentices are all mostly artillery operators, providing PSF's for HA1's, HC1-E's, and HAC-1's. They also operate the Crystalworks and provide power to your steam engines on your Crystalclads and Crystaltrains. Aside from a few select things, most of your equipment can be operated by apprentices or multiple apprentices working in unison.
GM, I have questions about our anti-magic shells: why aren't they more useful? Why aren't they being used to disable the magical protection of the enemy ships? Why aren't they being fired at enemy air assets so that even if they completely miss they'll still take them out by getting them within range of the anti-magic effect?
They've helped make Moskurg ballistas utterly irrelevant, except for the one aboard their airships. There's no point in firing them at airships or air troops, because even a mundane HA1 shell will annihilate the air asset. Near-misses will cause magic to fail, but only while in the field of effect. That's not long enough to cause the ship to fall out of the sky. They are also very expensive, so you can't afford to load every cannon with them.
Post by: Andres on June 10, 2017, 02:12:17 pm
They've helped make Moskurg ballistas utterly irrelevant, except for the one aboard their airships. There's no point in firing them at airships or air troops, because even a mundane HA1 shell will annihilate the air asset. Near-misses will cause magic to fail, but only while in the field of effect. That's not long enough to cause the ship to fall out of the sky. They are also very expensive, so you can't afford to load every cannon with them.What about their water ships? Load up a HC1-E with an anti-magic shell and have it punch through their hull. The shells might be Very Expensive but only one needs to hit. Once the shell is inside the ship the entire thing is covered in the anti-magic effect, making it slower and less durable.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 10, 2017, 02:27:32 pm
Post by: RAM on June 10, 2017, 03:41:38 pm
Celestedemorte
A larger, stronger, more powerful frost tower that effects a pillar of air rather than a disk of air. This creates a massive version of the convection effect that we have been constantly observing around our firewalls and steam engines and fireballs and fire wasps and every single tiny little thing that we do with all this fire in cold climes. This creates a massive Massive MASSIVE wind force as untold millions of tonnes of air are compelled to move down as quickly as they are able, and with al their friends doing the same thing, that is very quickly indeed. This will, in short, rip their storm coulds out of the heavens, and all the pathetic insects shall plummet from the air with them. And, as fortune would have it, it seems that as the water grows colder, the number of storm clouds is reduced.
Enduring this insane force is no small feat. The worked-crystal tower's walls are ten centimetres thick and must be transported in great panels by rails and cavalry teams before being assembled by leaning them against each other and bound together with rapidly grown vines. A great steel pole, 3 centimetres in diameter and running along one corner of the pyramidal structure and sunk into the ground renders the tower and its surrounds immune to lightning as we have learned that lightning loves metal. Finally, there is a 1-centimetre thinck shell around the structure of summoned crystal, that can easily be renewed. Within, the traditional elements of the tower of forever frost have been combined with circuitry to create a massive multistorey circuit to better unify the magic, inhibiting magical seepage and wastage resulting in a much more efficient tower and magems are included to make its operation more consistent. Access is granted by a ladder through a hole in the centre of the crystal foundation slab and requires that a tunnel be duge which benefits from crystal supports.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 10, 2017, 03:48:16 pm
Crystal isn't just slightly lighter than steel. It's significantly lighter. And while it still is of notable weight, actual helicopters lift a lot more weight. The massive reduction in weight, primarily due to size and to a somewhat lesser degree in crystal, should allow our steam engine to provide more than enough power in order to lift the AS-SPA-1.
You want to use wind magic to do this stuff. While it's definitely not a huge leap to be able to draw wind magic from our mastery of hot/cold, it's still wind magic. And Moskurg specializes in wind magic. We don't want to go head-to-head against Moskurg in the one thing they've been truly specializing in for practically the whole game. It'd be like if Moskurg suddenly tried making better cannons than us instead of building on their own advantages.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 10, 2017, 03:56:34 pm
Moskurgs Adamantium is a constant temperature outside of magical forging, lighter than steel, and cheap as dirt. It has similar hardness and brittleness to RHS, and all their blacksmiths are trained in forging it.
Post by: andrea on June 10, 2017, 04:05:48 pm
Unless you aid yourself with baloons, I guess.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 10, 2017, 04:09:51 pm
anyway, our engines are still way heavy. You are not going to get any helicopter from that until you lighten them A LOT ( or make them A LOT more powerful).We miniaturized them in the Restless design, and making the engine 100% crystal should drastically reduce weight even more. (It won't be light, but as a random example, 10% of 100,000 is a much bigger reduction than 10% of 100.)
Unless you aid yourself with baloons, I guess.
That and we're making a primitive helicopter, not a hot air balloon. This is using powered flight - of course it's not going to be light.
Post by: Andres on June 10, 2017, 04:11:08 pm
Their waterships are fairly non-magical. The only thing that'd be affected by the shells are their ballistas, and their ballistas aren't effective against crystalclads anyways.What about their adamantium? Doesn't it rely on magic to provide as much protection as it does and/or exist at all?
Post by: andrea on June 10, 2017, 04:12:52 pm
Mind you, a research credit can help... but I think this project is best done next turn, if we have the revision credit. It will be very very hard to get something actually useful this turn.
You may make the steam engine much lighter, but it is still very underpowered for its size. We never actually optimized our turbines even.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 10, 2017, 04:15:38 pm
Unless you aid yourself with baloons, I guess.
(http://i.imgur.com/d3tIjH4.png)
We miniaturized them in the Restless design
You attempted to, but it was too ambitious for the design.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 10, 2017, 04:20:39 pm
Sure. If you put our steam engine in a modern helicopter, it wouldn't do anything.
But this isn't a modern helicopter. It's significantly smaller and significantly lighter. It's a tiny thing - just big enough for one person, the already small AS-HAC-1, and limited ammo. On top of this, it's using a light yet strong material. The material may not be magically light, but it doesn't need to be. With all this in mind, the AS-SVA-1 is probably exponentially lighter than any modern helicopter. Our steam engine should definitely be able to power it.
(image snip'd)Another brilliant example of genius Arstotzkan engineering!
We miniaturized them in the Restless design
You attempted to, but it was too ambitious for the design.
As a significant aspect of the design, our Mathemagicians aim to noticeably decrease the size of the steam engine for best performance. This is a very high priority design goal compared to any other individual element.I would like to fire everyone involved in the Restless project please.
EDIT
I don't think the AS-SPA-1 is a perfect design this turn. But so far it seems to be the best one. (And also the most fun.) People are arguing against it, but I don't see anything I think is a better solution. It brings us into the air game, helps significantly against carpets + airships, and can help defeat their air units before they get within lightning strike range of our stuff. It helps at sea and at land.
There are a ton of other designs (most notably the APC) I'd like to try at land, but we really need to fix the problem at sea or else we'll start losing at land.
Post by: andrea on June 10, 2017, 04:34:53 pm
Speaking of revisions, soon we should uprate our mage gems. They have huge potential, but right now are basically only useful to allow our mages to get distracted for a few minutes. ( and a few rerouting stuff, which is good)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 10, 2017, 04:36:35 pm
As for revisions, we should really just switch our cannons + engines to use crystal. One of the biggest reasons we're losing at sea is because they can just ignore a Crystalclad's armor and lightning strike the steam engine for a big explosion. One of the biggest reasons we lose cannons is because they just lightning strike the steel cannons.
Post by: Kadzar on June 10, 2017, 04:46:19 pm
Design: Giant Mutant Bird Cavalry
For a while now, Arstotzkan researchers have recognized a need to counter Moskurg's flying force, and ultimately decided they needed to beat fliers with fliers. So, using their knowledge of life magic, they devised an alchemical brew to make birds big enough to carry a man, and, with their experience mind-controlling birds, were easily able to make them into perfect flying mounts. In doing so, they could finally join battle with Moskurgs in the skies.
Now, hear me out. This design has certain advantages compared to other flight options currently proposed:
Birds don't need magic to operate: Once we have our big birds (possible alternative name: Project Sesame Street), they'll stay big, without requiring a magic-user to maintain them. That means our magic users will have plenty of magic still available to cast fireballs while in the air, and we can alternatively employ Mage Hunter teams with antimagic arrows with no problems.
Birds aren't complicated: There are so many things that could go wrong with a helicopter regarding mechanics and just getting off the ground, whereas making a bigger bird is simple, especially when you apply fantasy logic, as this game does.
Birds already know how to fly: Making a working helicopter is going to require lots of complicated controls, which might be hard for pilots to grasp, whereas flying a bird should be similar to riding a horse, just with a few more dimensions (which a helicopter pilot would have to deal with anyway. Plus, a bird can always fly itself if need be, so it could potentially return if it loses its rider or compensate for a minor lapse of attention.
Birds are fast: In any likelyhood, the first helicopter model we'll get will be something like one of Leonardo da Vinci's drawings, but, even if it is really successful, the best we can hope for is a Vought-Sikorsky VS-300 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought-Sikorsky_VS-300), which had a top-speed of 50 mph, whereas birds can do better than (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_birds_by_flight_speed) at average speed, and could double or quadruple that at diving speed. The only proposal so far that could beat that is Jet Birds, and we'd need to make them bigger first to make that idea useful anyway.
TL;DR: Bigger birds is best
Quote
DESIGN
1 AS-SPB-3 "Dreadnought" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480574#msg7480574) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles
0 Aether Blink (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480615#msg7480615) (w/ Research Credit):
0 Ritual of the Enflamed Wasp (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534)
0 Jetbirds (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534)
0 Pillar of unmagic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534)
0 AS-SPA (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480764#msg7480764) (w/ Research Credit): Andres
2 AS-SPA-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480776#msg7480776) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, Andres
1 Giant Mutant Bird Cavalry: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7481015#msg7481015) Kadzar
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 10, 2017, 05:02:09 pm
It seems now is the time for
Design: Giant Mutant Bird Cavalry
For a while now, Arstotzkan researchers have recognized a need to counter Moskurg's flying force, and ultimately decided they needed to beat fliers with fliers. So, using their knowledge of life magic, they devised an alchemical brew to make birds big enough to carry a man, and, with their experience mind-controlling birds, were easily able to make them into perfect flying mounts. In doing so, they could finally join battle with Moskurgs in the skies.
Now, hear me out. This design has certain advantages compared to other flight options currently proposed:
Birds don't need magic to operate: Once we have our big birds (possible alternative name: Project Sesame Street), they'll stay big, without requiring a magic-user to maintain them. That means our magic users will have plenty of magic still available to cast fireballs while in the air, and we can alternatively employ Mage Hunter teams with antimagic arrows with no problems.
Birds aren't complicated: There are so many things that could go wrong with a helicopter regarding mechanics and just getting off the ground, whereas making a bigger bird is simple, especially when you apply fantasy logic, as this game does.
Birds already know how to fly: Making a working helicopter is going to require lots of complicated controls, which might be hard for pilots to grasp, whereas flying a bird should be similar to riding a horse, just with a few more dimensions (which a helicopter pilot would have to deal with anyway. Plus, a bird can always fly itself if need be, so it could potentially return if it loses its rider or compensate for a minor lapse of attention.
Birds are fast: In any likelyhood, the first helicopter model we'll get will be something like one of Leonardo da Vinci's drawings, but, even if it is really successful, the best we can hope for is a Vought-Sikorsky VS-300 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought-Sikorsky_VS-300), which had a top-speed of 50 mph, whereas birds can do better than (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_birds_by_flight_speed) at average speed, and could double or quadruple that at diving speed. The only proposal so far that could beat that is Jet Birds, and we'd need to make them bigger first to make that idea useful anyway.
TL;DR: Bigger birds is best
Quote
DESIGN
1 AS-SPB-3 "Dreadnought" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480574#msg7480574) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles
0 Aether Blink (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480615#msg7480615) (w/ Research Credit):
0 Ritual of the Enflamed Wasp (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534)
0 Jetbirds (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534)
0 Pillar of unmagic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534)
0 AS-SPA (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480764#msg7480764) (w/ Research Credit): Andres
2 AS-SPA-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480776#msg7480776) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, Andres
2 Giant Mutant Bird Cavalry: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7481015#msg7481015) Kadzar, voidslayer
Lets do this.
Post by: Andres on June 10, 2017, 05:05:38 pm
Basically a flat upgrade to all our guns. It'll also be good for when we make handheld firearms.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on June 10, 2017, 06:00:20 pm
You want to use wind magic to do this stuff. While it's definitely not a huge leap to be able to draw wind magic from our mastery of hot/cold, it's still wind magic. And Moskurg specializes in wind magic. We don't want to go head-to-head against Moskurg in the one thing they've been truly specializing in for practically the whole game. It'd be like if Moskurg suddenly tried making better cannons than us instead of building on their own advantages.I really don't follow your line of reasoning. There is absolutely no magic that is acting to create wind. All that the magic does is make things cold, wind is a natural product of that. It is like saying that we should give up on cannons because they cause objects to rise into the air, just like their levitation magic does. This is pure cold magic, a field in which we are strong in. This should, by all sanity, already be a thing, but it isn't, so I am putting in a design to make the logical consequences of a BEYOND MASSIVE field of rapid temperature reduction actually take effect.
This is just like when they used their wind magic to blow hot air from their deserts. That successfully reduced our temperature intensity, it removed our design bonus, and it was a pathtic effort. Moving an entire region's air into another region cannot be a simple task, it is a larger area than our frost towers by an order of magnitude and not lacking in force, but it is still weak because they do not actually have a source of appreciable temperature. We, the other hand, have a source of appreciable motion. Convection is not gentle. Making an area this large, this universally chilled, it is not a petty thing like moving some air from a place that is still habitable, this is making the skies fall by taking away the ground beneath them.
There really is no gentle way to phrase this. The argument I quoted above has invalid assumption, it is in no way wind magic. The argument has invalid logic, Deriving wind magic from hot/cold interactions is ridiculous. Wind magic is motion magic and temperature magic is state magic, there is no logical connection there. There is no logical basis to believe that competing with the opponent is impractical. You can argue that energy states are motion derived but that won't fly even a little bit. The argument has invalid conclusions, Wielding enough wind magic to oppose them would actually be quite effective, and observing their wind magic in progress would probably give a design action dedicated to duplicating their wind magic a bonus. We would actually have an example to draw from. If convenction was not available then wind magic might well be a good idea, but we have access to convection on a scale that makes modern technology look like a joke. I am pretty sure that a single tower of forever frost would take less than a day to put out more energy than a moderate-sized nuke.
Sorry, but the quoted statement is purely wrong. The only insane thing we could do with wind magic is try to fly wthout accounting for it.
Quote
DESIGNThe Celestedemorte noteably saves our research credit. It is completely unecessary. The only complex thing about it is integrating circuits into spellcasting rather than using them as a maintenance tool. The rest is just some tweaking to the spell's existing dimensional parameters and exploiting the advantages of our crystal's low weight and high rigidity to make buildings out of it. The stuff is a building-designer's dream-fantasy.
2 AS-SPB-3 "Dreadnought" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480574#msg7480574) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, RAM(insane)
1 Ritual of the Enflamed Wasp(R) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
1 Jetbirds (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
1 Pillar of unmagic(R) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
0 Aether Blink (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480615#msg7480615) (w/ Research Credit):
1 AS-SPA (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480764#msg7480764) (w/ Research Credit): Andres
2 AS-SPA-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480776#msg7480776) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, Andres
1 Celestedemorte: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480940#msg7480940) RAM
3 Giant Mutant Bird Cavalry: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7481015#msg7481015) Kadzar, voidslayer, RAM
I really cannot fathom Aetherblink working. Conjuration has only ever made new things, often practically impossible things. The idea that it is actually a form of teleportation seems ridiculous given that nothing conjured has ever had any evidence whatsoever of having existed prior. If you rephrase it to be Star-Trek-style murderporting then it would be plausible, but our people would suffer a sever drop in morale once they realised that the people who were 'teleported' ceased to exist shortly afterwards. And it goes without saying that we can't murderport without a disintegration spell. If you want something like this in an offensive variant, conjure something inside enemies. Regardless, it would be useless as a spell because the range is insufficient. Once we fix the range problems, such as with Ritual of the Enflamed Wasp, then offensive conjuration would be viable and we could look into such things.
I still don't think that giant birds are a thing that we have experience with. But it sounds mildly useful and apparently we can vote for everything now. The Dreadnought is not terrible, but it is not going to be killing anything on account of being too slow and not having enough range against air targets. Ehh, why not, we have votes to burn apparently. Wooo!
I feel that gyrocopters are too mundane, without magic to spport their flight they are overly reliant upon gears and propellors and such that is trying to work with nothing but 10th century know how and some admittedly very nice crystals. I just don't see it working any better than plant magic did, especially given that their wind and weather control will be a massive obstacle.
Post by: andrea on June 10, 2017, 06:03:09 pm
but really, if we make the bird cavalry... what are they going to fight with? longbows, I assume?
Post by: helmacon on June 10, 2017, 06:46:09 pm
What if, instead of just exploding it once, we explode out twice. Simultaneously. We do this by connecting two different mage gems to it, and pumping it full of magic from each end.
The result is the mage gem not just exploding, but literally testing itself apart into a fine glassy powder.
When detonated in midair, the result is a cloud of powder that takes a few minuets to dissipate, and will coat any flying carpets our airships that fly through the area in a billion tiny grains of anti magic.
This allows us to render entire areas of the sky inoperable for short periods of time, and take down air targets without direct hits.
It's like a flack shell, but even better because it hangs around for a bit.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 10, 2017, 07:15:55 pm
The rider can easily get shot off the bird.
The bird can easily get shot out of the sky.
Remember that they have Lucky Strike and tons of ranged attacks on air. The AS-SPA-1 works because it's made out of crystal which doubles as armor in addition to being a light material. Birds are not armored. And Sure, you could say "But we can spend a revision on that!"
Wouldn't it be better to use our design on something that doesn't need a revision to actually work?
That and it's pretty hard to armor a bird. You'd have to armor everything while still allowing the bird to fly while still allowing the wings to move. And the rider is still exposed.
Then there's the fact where it can't field heavy weaponry. No AS-HAC-1. Andrea, you say it'd work wonderfully with rifles, but I would like to point out that that's not a great reason to like it. Any flying vehicle would work great with rifles. And rifles isn't something you want to design it around. For instance, the AS-HAC-1 on the AS-SPA-1 is better than a rifle. There's no reason to want a rifle over it when you can have a simply better weapon.
Then there's the part where birds don't get the Crystalworks bonus, and that are existing >regular sized< falcons are already Very Expensive.
Seriously. I'd rather any one of the designs I already posted - the Dreadnought, Aether Blink, explosive/flak shells, the AS-HAC-2, anything.
You want to make wind magic.You want to use wind magic to do this stuff. While it's definitely not a huge leap to be able to draw wind magic from our mastery of hot/cold, it's still wind magic. And Moskurg specializes in wind magic. We don't want to go head-to-head against Moskurg in the one thing they've been truly specializing in for practically the whole game. It'd be like if Moskurg suddenly tried making better cannons than us instead of building on their own advantages.I really don't follow your line of reasoning. There is absolutely no magic that is acting to create wind. All that the magic does is make things cold, wind is a natural product of that. It is like saying that we should give up on cannons because they cause objects to rise into the air, just like their levitation magic does. This is pure cold magic, a field in which we are strong in. This should, by all sanity, already be a thing, but it isn't, so I am putting in a design to make the logical consequences of a BEYOND MASSIVE field of rapid temperature reduction actually take effect.
This is just like when they used their wind magic to blow hot air from their deserts. That successfully reduced our temperature intensity, it removed our design bonus, and it was a pathtic effort. Moving an entire region's air into another region cannot be a simple task, it is a larger area than our frost towers by an order of magnitude and not lacking in force, but it is still weak because they do not actually have a source of appreciable temperature. We, the other hand, have a source of appreciable motion. Convection is not gentle. Making an area this large, this universally chilled, it is not a petty thing like moving some air from a place that is still habitable, this is making the skies fall by taking away the ground beneath them.
There really is no gentle way to phrase this. The argument I quoted above has invalid assumption, it is in no way wind magic. The argument has invalid logic, Deriving wind magic from hot/cold interactions is ridiculous. Wind magic is motion magic and temperature magic is state magic, there is no logical connection there. There is no logical basis to believe that competing with the opponent is impractical. You can argue that energy states are motion derived but that won't fly even a little bit. The argument has invalid conclusions, Wielding enough wind magic to oppose them would actually be quite effective, and observing their wind magic in progress would probably give a design action dedicated to duplicating their wind magic a bonus. We would actually have an example to draw from. If convenction was not available then wind magic might well be a good idea, but we have access to convection on a scale that makes modern technology look like a joke. I am pretty sure that a single tower of forever frost would take less than a day to put out more energy than a moderate-sized nuke.
Sorry, but the quoted statement is purely wrong. The only insane thing we could do with wind magic is try to fly wthout accounting for it.
Wind is the movement of air. You want to make magic to control the movement of air. Moskurg uses magic to control the movement of air. You want to make wind magic. How do you not understand this?
Just because we know how it technically works doesn't make it not wind magic.
Post by: helmacon on June 10, 2017, 07:27:27 pm
And I reiterate
I just had a great idea for an anti air shell. Our anti magic crystals have a tendency to explode when encountering magic, right? Now, these fragments are good for grenades and such, and basically how our bomb arrows work.
What if, instead of just exploding it once, we explode out twice. Simultaneously. We do this by connecting two different mage gems to it, and pumping it full of magic from each end.
The result is the mage gem not just exploding, but literally testing itself apart into a fine glassy powder.
When detonated in midair, the result is a cloud of powder that takes a few minuets to dissipate, and will coat any flying carpets our airships that fly through the area in a billion tiny grains of anti magic.
This allows us to render entire areas of the sky inoperable for short periods of time, and take down air targets without direct hits.
It's like a flack shell, but even better because it hangs around for a bit.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 10, 2017, 07:32:41 pm
Regarding the anti-magic shell thing, Helmacon: It seems useful but mildly overengineered and could be too expensive to be useful. I think a valid course of action is designing a cheap explosive shell then revising a flak shell, or just designing a flak shell then revising something else. I already really want to use our revision to make our engines+cannons crystal, so I'm iffy on design explosive shell + revise flak shell idea.
And in general, I shall reiterate. I'd be willing to vote for many designs other than bird cavalry.
This isn't fluff - I don't doubt that we could do it- it's about use. Moskurg is really good at hitting smaller targets with their ranged attacks. Our birds will be flying utterly exposed, just like their riders. One shot means they're dead, and one shot is going to be extremely easy for Moskurg to do.
And weaponry - while the AS-SPA-1 can use a cannon and other spells, bird cavalry can just use fireball, which has a shorter range and is less versatile.
EDIT
Oh yeah, and bird cavalry has to rest and can't stay in the air indefinitely. The AS-SPA-1 can.
DreadnoughtI'd be willing to vote for any of these over bird cavalry. And designs that I posted further back not mentioned here. And designs made by other people (but not guaranteed).
Crystal Optics (Revision probably)
Would just help now, and a lot in the future. Crystal Optics, in its base form, allows for a Crystal Spyglass that can be used for safe and precise long-range spotting far superior to the flare. Doesn't obsolete the flare, as it can still be used for communication.
Steam Rifles
Actually possible now, thanks to the AS-HAC-1. Would help against their carpets, in a sniper role, potentially in melee, and not much in skirmish. Would actually be quite useful at sea as our soldiers could snipe their ship crew, and eliminate their
If we do the Crystal Optics revision afterwards, we can have the revision actually do Crystal Scopes on the rifles that can also spot for cannons. Would make snipers with Steam Rifles super powerful.
APC
Equipped with an AS-HAC-1 turret, an armored APC could really help our soldiers in the field. Though I don't think we need to focus this much on land at the moment. But it would help secure our advantage at land by a lot, and we could potentially use the revision for something that helps at sea.
AS-HAC-2
A self-loading cannon. Would be much more useful as anti-air and in its other roles. Maybe automatic or semi-automatic, but its main feature is that it would use easy-to-load magazines and loads shells into the chamber by itself instead of requiring each shell to be loaded. See my AS-HAC-2 future design I posted earlier. It would also include the HC2's Steam Recycler to practically eliminate the need for water.
This would really help
Explosive + Flak Shells
Boring, but would be really useful. Explosive shells can be designed and would give our artillery in every theatre a huge benefit + make all our cannons better against armor(?). Then we can revise Flak Shells to basically end Moskurg's air domination, allowing us to advance at sea once more.
I just don't think bird cavalry is a good idea anymore.
Post by: helmacon on June 10, 2017, 07:59:52 pm
And the way my flack works is not necessarily an explosive shell. The explosive part already exists in use (in our bomb arrows). The whole thing is basically just designing a circuit system to set a spell on a timer. After that we just stick it in a regular shell. The downside is that it wouldn't work as an explosive shell for anything else, but the upside is that it's not an explosive shell we are trying to use for anything else.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 10, 2017, 08:08:48 pm
But then we'd have to worry about expense. Hmm.
Anyways.
Design: AS-M1 Steam Rifle
The steam rifle is a remarkable weapon decades in the making.
To describe it in the simplest terms possible, it's a steam cannon scaled down for handheld use. It retains a relatively long (rifled, of course) barrel allowing for high accuracy, maintains a high range, is usable by mundane troops, and is breech-loaded.
The AS-M1 is of course, made out of crystal. This makes maintenance a thing of the past, as it regenerates itself. It also benefits from the Crystalworks. The tough crystal construction makes it lighter, cheaper, and more durable. The AS-M1 is made to fit comfortably in one's hands to allow for easy aiming without the use of a mount. When not in use, the AS-M1 can be stored on the back of a person.
On the bottom of the rifle, there's a slot for an AA Magegem. An AA Magegem is "clipped" into the slot where a crystal conduit connects it to the circuitry in the rifle and powers its operation. Due to the small size, a single AA Magegem can power it for multiple shots. Though we don't know the exact number until we finish the design. All we know is that because of how small the steam rifle is, it doesn't take nearly as much power as our former designs.
AS-M1 users are recommended to keep a supply of Magegems on hand for continued use in the field, and they can keep their depleted Magegems to be recharged by a wizard. If the supply of the AS-M1 happens to outnumber the supply of AA Magegems, then the excess AS-M1s shall be given to our wizards who do not require magegems to utilize the weapon.
The shell has been scaled down into what we're now calling a bullet. Users of the AS-M1 are to carry a bullet pouch along with small amounts of water. Thanks to the bolt action breech loading design, bullets and water can be very quickly loaded in. In fact, the AS-M1 is our fastest-firing design thanks to how easy it is to transport, store, and load the smaller caliber.
Because of how small each bullet is, exit velocity of the projectile is greatly improved over every other steam cannon despite the decrease in power. Bullets are made of crystal, allowing for great piercing power and even greater velocity than a steel bullet.
The weapon has a stock that goes against one's shoulder to stabilize and aim it during fire. It has an improved crosshair based on the primitive one used in the AS-HAC-1 in order to aid with long-range aiming. It has a comfortable handle with a physical trigger connecting a circuit between the Magegem and operational circuitry. When the trigger is pressed, the gun is fired via its circuitry. Allowing for mundane use.
TL;DR: A steam rifle.
Smaller Caliber/Crystal Bullets - We use bullets made of crystal. The smaller caliber and crystal construction makes the bullets much faster than any other projectile before despite the decrease in power. The bullets being made of crystal is cheap, light, and makes them have extra piercing abilities.
Scaled Down - The AS-M1 is essentially a scaled down version of the AS-HAC-1. It sacrifices power mainly for this, which is made up in the decreased caliber.
Breech-Loading - Obviously.
Crosshair - Very basic. Has an upgraded crosshair compared to the AS-HAC-1's crosshair.
Magegem-Powered - Because of its much lower power usage thanks to the fact it's been scaled down, the AS-M1 can get multiple shots from a single AA Magegem. No idea on the exact shots though. If we have more AS-M1s then magegems, then the extra rifles get given to mages who don't need Magegems.
Size + Crystal - Made out of crystal and thus gets the Crystalworks bonus. Is small enough to comfortably aim and carry on the person for indefinite periods of time. The crystal construction makes it lighter, durable, and self-regenerating.
Range + Accuracy - As high as possible. We want to be able to snipe air units and ground units alike with this thing.
Quote
DESIGNI'm voting for this too. If there's a tie, I'll change my votes accordingly.
2 AS-SPB-3 "Dreadnought" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480574#msg7480574) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, RAM(insane)
1 Ritual of the Enflamed Wasp(R) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
1 Jetbirds (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
1 Pillar of unmagic(R) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
0 Aether Blink (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480615#msg7480615) (w/ Research Credit):
1 AS-SPA (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480764#msg7480764) (w/ Research Credit): Andres
2 AS-SPA-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480776#msg7480776) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, Andres
1 Celestedemorte: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480940#msg7480940) RAM
3 Giant Mutant Bird Cavalry: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7481015#msg7481015) Kadzar, voidslayer, RAM
1 AS-M1 Steam Rifle (http://): Chiefwaffles
Post by: helmacon on June 10, 2017, 08:18:29 pm
Someone add me please. My phone makes pulling quotes a nightmare.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 10, 2017, 08:26:12 pm
Quote
DESIGN
2 AS-SPB-3 "Dreadnought" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480574#msg7480574) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, RAM(insane)
1 Ritual of the Enflamed Wasp(R) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
1 Jetbirds (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
1 Pillar of unmagic(R) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
0 Aether Blink (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480615#msg7480615) (w/ Research Credit):
1 AS-SPA (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480764#msg7480764) (w/ Research Credit): Andres
3 AS-SPA-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480776#msg7480776) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, Andres, helmacon
1 Celestedemorte: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480940#msg7480940) RAM
3 Giant Mutant Bird Cavalry: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7481015#msg7481015) Kadzar, voidslayer, RAM
1 AS-M1 Steam Rifle (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7481215#msg7481215): Chiefwaffles
What do you think about the M1 though, out of curiosity?
Also, I already said this, but for our revision we should revise our steam engines + cannons to be made out of crystal. This would make our stuff much more durable - Crystalclads would no longer have a weak spot that can sink the ship in one hit. Cannons can no longer be destroyed with one artillery strike, and more.
Combined with some firepower/offense-related design, it could really help.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 10, 2017, 08:31:16 pm
Another thought I has, was what if we spend some time learning to summon water for the steam cannons and create a crystal-works type contraption for each steam cannon that summons the shell right inside the barrel. That way it could keep firing without the need to reload anything but magic energy.
Post by: Andres on June 10, 2017, 08:35:42 pm
Design: AS-M1 Steam RifleWill never vote for this so long as it's called the "M1". Just call it an AS-SR1 like a normal person would.
Also, using steam is unnecessary. Just have a fireball be the propellant. The gun can be smaller, it'll have less weight (no water required), streamlined ammunition (just the bullet, not bullet+water) which means higher rate of fire, and it paves the way for fully-automatic weaponry and magazine ammunition. The lack of steam will also translate to either more reliability, greater safety, or decreased reload time.
Smaller Caliber/Crystal Bullets - We use bullets made of crystal. The smaller caliber and crystal construction makes the bullets much faster than any other projectile before despite the decrease in power. The bullets being made of crystal is cheap, light, and makes them have extra piercing abilities.Making them out of crystal is a bad idea. The density of lead is a feature, not a bug. Crystal bullets might give it higher muzzle velocity, but the lower weight (and thus lower inertia) means it'll suffer from a net decrease in range and stopping power. Not good for your stated purpose of being a sniper weapon. Giving them a crystal jacket, on the other hand, should allow them to keep their range and power while increasing muzzle velocity and giving them better AP capability.
If you think a jacketed round is too complex, fine, but even a pure lead bullet is better than a pure crystal bullet.
Scaled Down - The AS-M1 is essentially a scaled down version of the AS-HAC-1. It sacrifices power mainly for this, which is made up in the decreased caliber.Attempting to make this kind of weapon as a scaled down version of a cannon will result in failure. They are different weapons with different design requirements.
EDIT: Not to say we wouldn't benefit from our experience with cannons, it's just that approaching the design as "a cannon, but smaller" isn't the right way to go about it.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 10, 2017, 08:41:37 pm
Yeah, we can just skip self-loading and have our cannons summon the shell right inside them. It wouldn't work for special shells, but that could be fixed later.
We can also summon water. Wouldn't be that hard.
I just think steam rifles are more versatile. More energy efficient, better range, more able to be made resistant to anti-magic, and cooler.
@Andres: I'll see about implementing your criticism. I'm a bit wary on he scaled down/steam stuff you mention though, since I do feel it should build off of steam cannons to avoid unnecessary difficulty. But I'll probably mostly implement it.
Post by: Andres on June 10, 2017, 08:53:55 pm
I still want to know what is wrong with the idea of fireball rods usable by infantry.Range and the fact that the more powerful a spell the more mage energy it requires.
Another thought I has, was what if we spend some time learning to summon water for the steam cannons and create a crystal-works type contraption for each steam cannon that summons the shell right inside the barrel. That way it could keep firing without the need to reload anything but magic energy.Using Conjuration magic to conjure in the required ammunition would certainly increase rate of fire significantly, but there is a problem. The conjuration of the shells themselves wouldn't make use of our crystalworks unless we used a teleport spell, in which case we're using a teleport spell for shell-loading duty which would be a waste of the spell's potential.
There may also be difficulties in regards to making it possible for non-mages to work the device by themselves. As an overall design goal we're trying to minimise our reliance on mages to conduct war.
If you can think of a way to achieve the idea of ammunition conjuration feel free to share it with us.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: helmacon on June 10, 2017, 08:54:56 pm
If I might suggest an alternative, and a compromise with void slayer.
Instead of approaching rifles through a cannon perspective, we approach through a wand perspective. The wand is set at the back of a short metal tube. (Not Crystal. The wand shoots fire, and that's bad for Crystal. Plus, we gotta burn the mountain bonus somewhere.) on the other side, a rotating cylinder holds up to 6 mage gems at a time, and the gem is used to power the wand for a small fireball. A small trigger is located on the bottom of the device that when pulled completes the connection between the mage gem and the wand. The release of the mage gem allows the cylinder to turn, clicking the next mage gem into place.
This has the benefit of not requiring water to fire, and holding multiple shots at once. A fireball wand will also probably be more accurate than a proto musket too.
Best case, we get a revolver like thing. Even if it needs A size mage gems, it's vaguely the build of a grenade launcher.
Edit: oops triple ninjad. I didn't even notice.
I like Andres idea of using the fireball as the propellant, instead of the payload. Much more versatile in the long run, if a little more complex up front.
Post by: RAM on June 10, 2017, 09:03:09 pm
1: Improved efficiency. We already have overkill on our frost towers, by encouraging airflow we draw more air into their influence and thus increase their effectiveness and extend their influence.
2: Denies the skies. The amaount of airflow this would produce is catastrophic. The results of chilling are simple, obvious, and significant, the mass iunvolved is beyond extreme. There is no way that the air anywhere near one of these things is safe. It is basically a whirlpool in the sky sucking everything down and then out. The enemy has massive sky dominance. Their weather magic can make the region unsafe for flying and their wind can protect themselves from the obvious issues of air vehicles being far more vulnerable to inclement weather than sea vehicles are. Throwing flying vehicles at them only results in losing flying vehicles. Also note that our crystals are very heavy. Not heavy compared to steel, but very heavy compared to rock. Remember that they were being used as axes and lances. Axes and lances are inertia weapons, that means weight. We KNOW, that crystals are heavy.
3: consistent aiming. It controls wthe wind patterns in its area. The enemy can fight in stops and starts, but air will be drawn in regardless. This makes our cannon shells more reliable, although the strong winds would take some experience to become familiar with.
4: Ritual experience. The ranges that war is being fought on render conventional magic useless. We need a way to boost our spells to a power level that can operate at artillery range and beyond. Augmenting our wizards would be nice, but it is a difficult and slow path. Rituals could easily juice up our magic to the level required to operate on the current battlefield.
5: Lightning rod. We need to start implementing this on all of our designs, this is a good place to start.
6: Actual physics. We have need to start observing the field. Convection and conductivity have been happening in front of us for a long time, we should start using it.
7: Easy. This is basically just a forever frost tower, we have lots of experience with those. We could do this blindfolded and it destroys the skies in a massive area. The other ideas are all stretching the limits of what is possible. Either small but extremely difficult advances in mundane technology or large leaps from established magical theory... This holds the line and we get to save our research credit for something good next turn.
Disadvantages:
1: Kills birds. We need to be careful, but we know where these are and when they will be starting, so we can avoid it.
2: Land only. Not for long...
The fluff is important because it justifies how we can do the things that we do. It is the difference between:
Magic cannon
A tube that shoots metal balls because magic.
and
Steam cannon
We use our existing heat and water magics to create pressurised steam that, combined with a sudden burts of pressure from a fireballs spell, will propell a projectile with both speed and force.
The first one is a completely new field of magic with very low odds of getting a practical weapon out of it. The second uses existing magic in a fashion that is understandible and we know how to achieve it.
We have the ability to spontaneously drop the temperature over a large area. This is all that is necessary for convection. Convection force is as powerful as the mass and the drop in temperature. The drop in temperature is large, the mass is off the charts. This is temperature magic and we are much better at temperature magic than the keggers are at wind magic. So even if that were a thing it would be an argument in favour as they would be unable to compete with our superior skill in the field. As it is, however, the "don't do it because they are better than us" argument is completely false. It is a good deal less well supported than the popularised "slippery slope" fallasy. The whole "don't do it because it is wind" is completely baseless nonsense and I am embarrassed for anyone who honestly believes it. Which, I suspect, does not apply to anyone here...
1: not wind magic. It is no more wind magic than the firewall in a bolier is ship-moving magic. And the Keggers use wind magic to move their ships, so obviously we should just give up on the whole idea... This is not controlling the wind, it is changing the wind's circumstances such that directly controlling the wind is a fool's errand.
2: Better at wind manipulation than wind magic is. We are talking about millions of tonnes, entire regions. The forever frost effect is much more powerful than their wind magic is. It easily overpowers every wind magic that they have in the field. If they want to resist this then they need to use absolute wind control rather than relative wind control. And if they do that then they would be better off with a literally invulnerable shield by holding the air still rather than their current "push it away with opposing force" shields. Not to mention that their energy expenditure of holding a space stationary while the whole world is moving around it would be too high to maintain while we already know that we can keep the forever frost up pretty much constantly. Not to mention that they probably thing that Earth is stationary, and thus all their attempts at absolute position control result in being flung out into space or crushed deep into the planet.
We have seen what wind magic, magic that acts directly upon wind, can do, and it is not enough. We have seen what cold magic can do, and combined with convection it is clearly more effective to manipulate wind indirectly than directly.
3: Stop being a troll. It no longer seems plausible that you honestly believe what you are saying. Cold magic = wind magic is a ridiculous notion. All magic has side-effects. Magic categories are very clearly based upon what they actually do, and experience in magic categories applies accordingly. Lightning causes explosions, fireball is an explosion, therefore lightning is fireball magic?
They have magic in that field so we shouldn't bother is also a complete fantasy. They used wind magic to create a temperature effect and it was very effective, we needed to rtaliate immediately and it was difficult because we were already pushing the limits of the field. They have flight magic, so all these hawks and helicopters should be given up on! No, wait, that would be stupid, we should give up on flying attackers because of their wind magic giving them free reign to control the air and with an upgrade that can cause our helicopters to flip upside down and crash. There is no part of your argument that is even slightly plausible. There are ZERO foundations, the assumptions are pathetically flimsy, the logic is flawed, the conclusions are fantasy. I am usually the last to call a troll a troll. I normally just assume that people are being honest, but in this instance it is really rather impossible to believe that someone could honestly state that macroscopic kinetic force is equal to thermal force and that an opponents superiority in a field is reason to abandon the idea of denying that field to anyone.
Summoning ammunition is good against air opponents, but bad against ground opponents who can protect themselves with antimagic.
Rifles are short-ranged, that is currently useless to us, but may well become useful later.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 10, 2017, 09:19:46 pm
"Changelog":
- Crystal-jacketed Steel Bullets instead of Crystal Bullets.
- Changed name to AS-SR-1.
- Uses scaled-down fireball as propulsion instead of steam.
EDIT2: Changed it a bit.
- Name changed to AS-HR-1. Hybrid Rifle instead of Steam Rifle, because it no longer uses steam.
- Removed mentions of water.
EDIT3: More changes!
- Name changed again to AS-R1. Because evidently Andres was traumatized by the word "Hybrid" at some point in his life.
- Bullet material changed to lead, if not too expensive.
Design: AS-R1 Hybrid Rifle
The hybrid rifle is a remarkable weapon decades in the making.
To describe it in the simplest terms possible, it's a steam cannon scaled down for handheld use. It retains a relatively long (rifled, of course) barrel allowing for high accuracy, maintains a high range, is usable by mundane troops, and is breech-loaded.
The AS-R1 is of course, made out of crystal. This makes maintenance a thing of the past, as it regenerates itself. It also benefits from the Crystalworks. The tough crystal construction makes it lighter, cheaper, and more durable. The AS-R1 is made to fit comfortably in one's hands to allow for easy aiming without the use of a mount. When not in use, the AS-R1 can be stored on the back of a person.
The rifle actually isn't just a scaled-down steam cannon, however.
Thanks to our extensive experience with steam cannons and the AS-HAC-1, this gun is able to be made reality. But just making it a smaller steam cannon isn't efficient. It'd need water and a boiler chamber and many other components that just prove unwieldy and unnecessary for a rifle.
So instead, the rifle is powered simply by a scaled-down streamlined fireball instead. The magic energy required is similar to that for a theoretical steam cannon of the same size, but the energy transfer is much more efficient. We get a faster projectile for the same energy cost, the size of the rifle is drastically reduced, and the need for water is eliminated.
On the bottom of the rifle, there's a slot for an AA Magegem. An AA Magegem is "clipped" into the slot where a crystal conduit connects it to the circuitry in the rifle and powers its operation. Due to the small size, a single AA Magegem can power it for multiple shots. Though we don't know the exact number until we finish the design. All we know is that because of how small the hybrid rifle is, it doesn't take nearly as much power as our former designs.
AS-R1 users are recommended to keep a supply of Magegems on hand for continued use in the field, and they can keep their depleted Magegems to be recharged by a wizard. If the supply of the AS-R1 happens to outnumber the supply of AA Magegems, then the excess AS-R1s shall be given to our wizards who do not require magegems to utilize the weapon.
The shell has been scaled down into what we're now calling a bullet. Users of the AS-R1 are to carry a bullet pouch with many bullets. Thanks to the bolt action breech loading design, bullets can be very quickly loaded in. In fact, the AS-R1 is our fastest-firing design thanks to how easy it is to transport, store, and load the smaller caliber.
Because of how small each bullet is, exit velocity of the projectile is greatly improved over every other steam cannon despite the decrease in power. Each bullet is made out of lead encased in crystal to retain its weight while giving it the ability to easily pierce Moskurg's metal. If lead turns out to be expensive enough that it raises the overall cost, then the heaviest acceptably cheap possible metal will be used instead.
The weapon has a stock that goes against one's shoulder to stabilize and aim it during fire. It has an improved crosshair based on the primitive one used in the AS-HAC-1 in order to aid with long-range aiming. It has a comfortable handle with a physical trigger connecting a circuit between the Magegem and operational circuitry. When the trigger is pressed, the gun is fired via its circuitry. Allowing for mundane use.
The result should be amazing. Our mundane and magical troops alike can snipe enemies both on the ground, and out of the sky. The gun is easily carried and so is its ammunition. Anyone can use it with the ammo. The lethality of a soldier equipped with this rifle is devastating. Carpets can be shot down with just one bullet, the rate of fire is the highest yet, anyone can carry it, and more!
TL;DR: A light handheld "steam" rifle. Should be accurate+long-ranged, and uses a fireball->bullet propulsion system instead of fireball->steam->bullet.
Fireball-Powered - We cut out the middleman and have the fireball spell used to shoot the projectile instead of boiling water to make steam to shoot the projectile. The result is a much more space and energy efficient gun that shoots faster than a steam cannon of a similar size. Also removes the need for water, reducing the amount of stuff needed to fire and increasing the rate of fire. You just load the bullet and fire, instead of loading the bullet then the water and fire. And you don't need to carry water and bullets anymore! Just bullets.
Smaller Caliber/Crystal-Jacketed Lead Bullets - We use bullets made of lead and jacketed with crystal. The bullets retain a decent weight while being faster and much better at armor-piercing than a regular steel bullet. If using lead adds penalties to expense, then just use the next heaviest metal that won't hurt the expense.
Scaled Down - The AS-R1 is essentially a scaled down version of the AS-HAC-1. It sacrifices power mainly for this, which is made up in the decreased caliber.
Breech-Loading - Obviously. Uses same bolt action breech-loading mechanism we have in every cannon at the moment.
Crosshair - Very basic. Has an upgraded crosshair compared to the AS-HAC-1's crosshair.
Magegem-Powered - Because of its much lower power usage thanks to the fact it's been scaled down, the AS-R1 can get multiple shots from a single AA Magegem. No idea on the exact shots though. If we have more AS-R1s then magegems, then the extra rifles get given to mages who don't need Magegems.
Size + Crystal - Made out of crystal and thus gets the Crystalworks bonus. Is small enough to comfortably aim and carry on the person for indefinite periods of time. The crystal construction makes it lighter, durable, and self-regenerating.
Range + Accuracy - As high as possible. We want to be able to snipe air units and ground units alike with this thing.
Expense - Considering the size of it, the removal of the steam parts, and the crystalworks, I'm optimistically hoping for Expensive. Cheap is possible, and so is Very Expensive.
Quote
DESIGN
2 AS-SPB-3 "Dreadnought" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480574#msg7480574) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, RAM(insane)
1 Ritual of the Enflamed Wasp(R) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
1 Jetbirds (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
1 Pillar of unmagic(R) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
0 Aether Blink (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480615#msg7480615) (w/ Research Credit):
3 AS-SPA-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480776#msg7480776) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, Andres, helmacon
1 Celestedemorte: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480940#msg7480940) RAM
3 Giant Mutant Bird Cavalry: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7481015#msg7481015) Kadzar, voidslayer, RAM
1 AS-HR1 Steam Rifle (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7481303#msg7481303) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles
RAM, I don't appreciate being called a troll. Just because you don't agree with what I'm saying doesn't mean I'm only doing it to try and annoy you.
It doesn't matter how you're doing it; you're using magic to create wind. Moskurg has much much much much more experience creating wind. The technique Moskurg or we use to create wind does not matter at all.
Post by: helmacon on June 10, 2017, 09:49:34 pm
I've got a few changes to suggest though.
-Drop the crystal jacket. It's a good idea, but lets try to get a cheap, working gun before we add any bells and whistles.
-Make the firing chamber metal, even if the rest is crystal. Heat is bad for crystals. Regeneration is fine for something chronic like a steam engine, but a sudden burst of heat (like a detonating fireball) could shatter the crystal before it can regenerate. We will have a mountain bonus to burn soon, so I think it would be fine. (It's a miniscule amount of metal anyways)
-Exchange the clip for bolt action. An automatic firing clip is something we have never done, and arguably worthy of a revision on it's own. Bolt action is very similar to our breech loading, and much more reasonable.
-Change the name. It's not a steam rifle anymore. We don't use any steam in it. Don't call it a steam rifle.
Change this stuff, and i'm in.
((You still have mentions of soldiers carrying water for the gun in the last description too, so you might want to reread it and touch up.))
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 10, 2017, 09:54:13 pm
The firing chamber thing is unnecessary. Crystal is not that brittle. For instance, the AS-HAC-1 is 100% crystal and has absolutely zero problems with the heat. Worst case scenario is that it'll suffer some microfractures over time, but that's easily fixed already by regenerative crystal. Crystal isn't anywhere near brittle enough to shatter from sudden heat.
Crystal jacket I feel is kind of necessary. They have adamantium armor on every soldier, no? While I'm sure that it wouldn't be a huge problem, I want some degree of armor piercing to keep rifles relevant against all infantry and even some of their bigger stuff.
I'll change the name though to the AS-HR-1, the Hybrid Rifle. Andres will probably hate it but he can always suggest something better.
And if you do vote for it, please don't remove your vote for the Gyrocopter. Because if you do then Evicted will probably just do the update with bird cavalry.
Post by: helmacon on June 10, 2017, 10:03:47 pm
Quote
An AA Magegem is "clipped" into the slot where a crystal conduit connects it to the circuitry in the rifle and powers its operation.
heh, my bad. I read this and thought you meant a "clip" full of mage gems.
Ill compromise with you. Keep the crystal jacket, but add a metal firing chamber.
We aren't just getting a burst of hot steam, we are literally detonating a fireball inside the weapon. It's an explosion. That's how it drives the bullet. Shattering is a real risk with that.
So, we keep the crystal jacket, but add a metal firing chamber. Those are my terms.
Post by: Andres on June 10, 2017, 10:05:50 pm
- Crystal-jacketed Steel Bullets instead of Crystal Bullets.Why steel instead of lead?
I'll change the name though to the AS-HR-1, the Hybrid Rifle. Andres will probably hate it but he can always suggest something better.I hate it. I will suggest something better now: AS-R1.
Seriously, you can't keep using the word "hybrid" whenever two technologies are used in a single design.
Ill compromise with you. Keep the crystal jacket, but add a metal firing chamber.Crystal's brittleness is only in comparison to adamantium. Compared to steel, it's even. Even if it weren't, it wouldn't shatter, just produce small cracks which eventually result in shattering, but crystal regen negates that.
We aren't just getting a burst of hot steam, we are literally detonating a fireball inside the weapon. It's an explosion. That's how it drives the bullet. Shattering is a real risk with that.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 10, 2017, 10:08:00 pm
@Andres: I'm worried that Evicted could assume it's notably harder for us to get lead than it is to get steel. I'll change it to say something along the lines of "lead if it doesn't notably add to the overall cost".
As for the name, sure. R1. It's pretty much the same as the M1, though, but sure.
Post by: Andres on June 10, 2017, 10:12:01 pm
As for the name, sure. R1. It's pretty much the same as the M1, though, but sure.Excellent, but they are not "pretty much the same." There are two crucial differences which make R1 objectively better than M1:
1. R stands for Rifle. M stands for nothing. The confusion will wreak havoc on our logistics and demoralise our troops with confusion. (Maybe an exaggeration, but it's still annoying.)
2. R is capable of standing for "roar" while M is capable of standing for "meow". "Roar" is more powerful than "meow" and is therefore better.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: helmacon on June 10, 2017, 10:20:14 pm
@helmacon: The AS-HAC-1 already does that, though. It uses a PSF - powerful streamlined fireball - in its crystal construction in order to create the steam. The only difference is where we're detonating the fireball. In the AS-HAC-1, it's the crystal boiling chamber/whatever you call it. In the AS-HR-1, it's the crystal firing chamber.I thought our steam boilers were still metal. Wow, i'm really out of the loop. Carry on then.
Post by: RAM on June 10, 2017, 10:24:30 pm
I still see absolutely no way that a man-portable rifle will address our airship problem though. And I would also expect to see a significant loss of power or increase in damage to the firing chamber if the steam element were removed.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 10, 2017, 10:34:14 pm
@RAM: Again, the AS-HAC-1 uses fireballs in small crystal containers and suffers absolutely zero problems because of it.
And removing the steam element should improve power, not decrease it. A PSF can blow up entire squads of soldiers with one hit. What we're doing with our steam cannons is turning that into steam then using that steam to move the projectile, when we can just cut out the middleman. Converting the fireball's energy to steam then using that to propel the bullet is going to be have a lot more wasted energy than just using the fireball to propel the bullet.
It won't solve the airship problem, yes, but their airships are already a minor factor. The big problem is just their air domination overall, and the rifle should really help with their carpets.
Also, I'm confident that the revision I'm planning (Make HC1-E, HA1, and steam engine out of crystal) is both really easy and should solve the problem. The main reason why we're losing at sea is because our Crystalclads can be sunk with just one lightning strike due to its exposed steam engine. If we make the steam engine out of crystal, then lightning should be a lot less effective against it.
Post by: helmacon on June 10, 2017, 10:39:28 pm
Post by: Andres on June 10, 2017, 10:43:29 pm
Considering how minor of a change it'll be, I think we can get this done with a Revision. The transparent crystal we'd develop could then be applied to future designs such as ships, aircraft, and warmachines. It'll also allow us to develop telescopic sights.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 10, 2017, 10:46:55 pm
@helmacon: Well, we do have the research credit, and rifles isn't some extremely ambitious thing. Sure, it's ambitious, but looking at it from a strictly "can we do it?" point of view, it's not that hard. We eliminate the boiler chamber in our cannons, scale the whole thing down, make some tweaks to things such as the caliber, and throw in magegem compatibility. It's not an easy design, but it definitely isn't anywhere near our most ambitious designs. That plus the research credit means there's a very likely chance that we'll be able to use the rifles without revisions.
@Andres: Definitely something we should do, though I do think my crystal magitech revision is essential to protect against their growing lightning advantage.
We'll see during the revision phase, I suppose.
Post by: helmacon on June 10, 2017, 11:10:27 pm
Quote
DESIGN
2 AS-SPB-3 "Dreadnought" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480574#msg7480574) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, RAM(insane)
1 Ritual of the Enflamed Wasp(R) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
1 Jetbirds (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
1 Pillar of unmagic(R) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
0 Aether Blink (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480615#msg7480615) (w/ Research Credit):
3 AS-SPA-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480776#msg7480776) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, Andres, helmacon
1 Celestedemorte: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480940#msg7480940) RAM
3 Giant Mutant Bird Cavalry: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7481015#msg7481015) Kadzar, voidslayer, RAM
2 AS-HR1 Steam Rifle (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7481303#msg7481303) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, Helmacon
Post by: RAM on June 10, 2017, 11:22:14 pm
@RAM: Again, the AS-HAC-1 uses fireballs in small crystal containers and suffers absolutely zero problems because of it.I cannot find a source for that. And it seems pointless. All it would do is increase the armour of the firing chamber, which is creat and all but you could just increase the armour of the firing chamber. It would potentially replace some of the cracking I suppose, so not completely useless, but it is not as though it would automatically fix everything. Unless you mean that the whole cannon is a small crystal container? Making that container man-portable and expecting it to contain a blast big enough to kill 100 soldiers is a big ask. Just because a cannon the size of a soldier can do it doesn't mean that one the size of an arm can.
And removing the steam element should improve power, not decrease it. A PSF can blow up entire squads of soldiers with one hit. What we're doing with our steam cannons is turning that into steam then using that steam to move the projectile, when we can just cut out the middleman. Converting the fireball's energy to steam then using that to propel the bullet is going to be have a lot more wasted energy than just using the fireball to propel the bullet.Cutting out the middleman is not a good thing. In this case the middleman is not taking a large cut, as the steam should already be steam, and is contributing a lot, as the steam is more dense than air and thus stores energy more effectively, keeping the chamber ressurised. The same existing steam chamber would be weaker without the steam, and removing the steam chamber and just having a tiny little hole would fore the whole fireball to detonate in a much smaller space, concentrating the force, and causing the gun to explode, spraying shards through everyone nearby. This is not the middleman who threatens to ruin your reputation of you don't give them a 50% commission, this is the middlemad whith a massively greater exposure than your own who maintains a small markup and grants you access to a market share that you could never achieve on your own. The steam system increases the maximum force that can be tolerated, removing it results in less powerful rifles, unless there is some special trick to overcoming this. Perhaps you could try summoning the crystal over steel instead of over air? Thus producing am ahem, 'alloy' of the two materials that somehow possesses none of the manufacturing, research, or any other problems nor properties of alloys in general but does offer a crystal structure that is extremely shock resistant due to its high density stuffing...
Of course, they definitely are not using a full fireballs spell, so mentioning them is sort of pointless.
It won't solve the airship problem, yes, but their airships are already a minor factor. The big problem is just their air domination overall, and the rifle should really help with their carpets.That is extremely optimistic. They are increasing their armour and altitude. The rifles will be extremely lucky if they achieve anything at all against air forces. or to the point, we can already deal with their carpets and the carpets carry far less ordnance.
Also, I'm confident that the revision I'm planning (Make HC1-E, HA1, and steam engine out of crystal) is both really easy and should solve the problem. The main reason why we're losing at sea is because our Crystalclads can be sunk with just one lightning strike due to its exposed steam engine. If we make the steam engine out of crystal, then lightning should be a lot less effective against it.Ummm, no? They are dropping fire pots on our steam engines too. And they are pretty big exposed targets. A simple remodelling of the crystalclad's hull would fix the problem. Making boilers out of crystal would still leave it as a vuulnerable piece of crystal that has to contend with internal pressure. Don't forget that they still have lucky strike, so you can't expect them to just not hit the boilers if they are still exposed.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 10, 2017, 11:26:48 pm
Evicted quite clearly mentions "PSF" a lot when referring to any of our cannons.
They have not been increasing the armor of their carpets, and it would be extraordinarily unlikely to increase the armor of their carpets while maintaining speed and expense. And even then, our cannons (+ rifle) would still probably be able to pierce armored carpets. Which isn't even really a thing they can do.
Firebombs are quite clearly useless against crystal. I know about lucky strike, but our problem is lightning which does not use lucky strike. Lightning is effective against our ships because it destroys the metal steam engines, blowing up the rest of the ship. Making our steam engines out of crystal should largely invalidate their lightning strikes on the engines and make it so in worst case scenarios an apprentice would have to assist its self regeneration for a couple minutes to get the ship moving again. All while the AS-HAC-1 is firing at the carpets/airship.
Post by: helmacon on June 10, 2017, 11:37:30 pm
Quote
Quote from: Chiefwaffles on Today at 10:34:14 pm
And removing the steam element should improve power, not decrease it. A PSF can blow up entire squads of soldiers with one hit. What we're doing with our steam cannons is turning that into steam then using that steam to move the projectile, when we can just cut out the middleman. Converting the fireball's energy to steam then using that to propel the bullet is going to be have a lot more wasted energy than just using the fireball to propel the bullet.
Cutting out the middleman is not a good thing. In this case the middleman is not taking a large cut, as the steam should already be steam, and is contributing a lot, as the steam is more dense than air and thus stores energy more effectively, keeping the chamber ressurised. The same existing steam chamber would be weaker without the steam, and removing the steam chamber and just having a tiny little hole would fore the whole fireball to detonate in a much smaller space, concentrating the force, and causing the gun to explode, spraying shards through everyone nearby. This is not the middleman who threatens to ruin your reputation of you don't give them a 50% commission, this is the middlemad whith a massively greater exposure than your own who maintains a small markup and grants you access to a market share that you could never achieve on your own. The steam system increases the maximum force that can be tolerated, removing it results in less powerful rifles, unless there is some special trick to overcoming this. Perhaps you could try summoning the crystal over steel instead of over air? Thus producing am ahem, 'alloy' of the two materials that somehow possesses none of the manufacturing, research, or any other problems nor properties of alloys in general but does offer a crystal structure that is extremely shock resistant due to its high density stuffing...
IRL guns work with a small explosion to propel a bullet. A fireball is essentially a small explosion we have summoned into existence. A steam cannon is essentially a pressure cannon. The force provided is not comparable. A fireball based rifle will be more effective.
The whole "detonating a fireball in an enclosed space" thing was a concern of mine also, and why i suggested a metal firing chamber. Apparently though, we are already doing so with the boilers, so it should be fine.
Also, we do not "summon the crystal over air" we replace/displace the air with crystal, attempting to summon crystal over steel would simply result in a crystal jacket. By definition, you can't form an alloy with crystal. Crystal is heavily reliant on structure, and an alloy is changing the structure.
I feel like you just disagree with CW designs on principal now.
Post by: helmacon on June 10, 2017, 11:39:40 pm
Quote
I know about lucky strike, but our problem is lightning which does not use lucky strike.INB4 they revise lightning to use lucky strike.
Post by: RAM on June 11, 2017, 12:27:38 am
The whole "detonating a fireball in an enclosed space" thing was a concern of mine also, and why i suggested a metal firing chamber. Apparently though, we are already doing so with the boilers, so it should be fine.The boilers boil. We essencially use pressure cannons combined with combustion cannons. It is somewhere in between the two. And, of course, both are fundamentally pressure cannons, just with different attitudes to pressure generation. I absolutely agree tht it would be more powerful if we could do it, but I see no reason to believe that things havr improved that much since we were having issues with pressure cannons exploding. Ehh, regeneration is a big step, they won't develope progressive weakness, but still, it is a lot to ask to go from a boiler-sized combustion chamber to a gun-sized combustion chamber. I expect that we are already at the limit of what our materials can reliably withstand, so we will not gain any power without something exploding. Though I am willing to concedet hat I may have been a little overzealous at removing the steam. It is a big risk as we are gaining a lot from the large steam chamber, but it is not impossible that removing it might reduce power consumption with no appreciable downsides.
Also, we do not "summon the crystal over air" we replace/displace the air with crystal, attempting to summon crystal over steel would simply result in a crystal jacket. By definition, you can't form an alloy with crystal. Crystal is heavily reliant on structure, and an alloy is changing the structure.We know that our wasps do not explode, so we know that some re/dis-placement occurs, but they do not expel unnatural gasses either. Therefore it stands to reason that the gasous content is what was there originally. The crystal is light because it has a low density, it should be possible to have a crystal grow around another material, even at the elemental level. Certainly not an alloy, a crystal alloy is an obviously ridiculous concept, but using magic to force the crystal to grow into a dense material ought to be plausible and ought to result in a version of the crystal that loses its low weight but gains compression-resistance. It is rather absurd an idea, but seems well within the bounds of magic to my mind.
I feel like you just disagree with CW designs on principal now.Nom it is just the constant stream of nonsense that the poor G.M. has to translate into a working concept. Like calling my crystal-gorwn-through-metal thing an alloy. C.W. insisted that creating an alloy was too difficult, I insisted that comaring it to an alloy was ridiculous and C.W. insisted that it was very definitely an alloy and was very definiately allow-level difficult even though alloys are dificult because you need to get the measurments and cnditions right and if you just get the crystal to grow through a material then there are no measuments or conditions.
And we get crystalworks that are an assembly line to improve the production of things that come into being fully formed from a single act. Fortunately we ended up with three-dimensional printing instead of an assembly line and so it would actually work and be of benefit rather than just sending 5 wizards to do a job that one could do.
...
This is what I have to deal with, this is where "Crystal alloy" came from.
Spontaneously we have, from nowhere, that it is an alloy, and that alloys are hard to do. It is not an alloy, and it either works or id doesn't. Possibly it takes more power to get it to summon in a dense environment. Maybe it even requires a special magic to overcome the material's presence. Maybe it just doesn't work and we are left with a lump of normal lead that still would have worked well enough and we would have learned something. But no, apparently I am making the mystical lead-crystal alloy that is so difficult instead of just making a simple mass increase to our existing crystals by summoning them into a high-density environment and letting their low-density nature be filled in.It is just combiningthe two, in a fashion that is plausible. We have never explained what happens to whatever is in the place that a summoned thing is summoned into. This just places something other than air where the crystal is summoned and has the crystal summoned around it. Normally this would just be heavy crystals, as lead doesn't really do anything to improve crystal other than maybe increase its shock resistance, but in a very very much less weight-efficient way than you would get from just adding more crystal. What it does achieve, however, is making the lead rigid until it impacts, which is pretty much the only thing that matters. Hardness is basically irrelevant in such forces and structure generally loses out to things like blast-waves. This just holds a liead-projectile's form so that it all piles onto a single point instead of behaving like a liquid and spreading out.You want to make a crystal-lead alloy.
We have never done anything like this before. At best this is a revision of its own. You're seeking insane overcomplication here and I frankly don't know why.
C.,W. just has a gift for adding bizarre things that obviously won't work. In this instance we put a lot of effort into making the steam work and now it is being removed. It certainly could work, this is not a particularly unworkable idea, it is just that what is holding us back right now is materials, also, a fireball requires a lot more magic than the current ammunition provides so we are obviously looking at a greatly reduced spell in there, Which means that it is developing an entirely new fireball spell. Now this idea could actually work. It will do nothing about the airships which will murder us next turn, but it would actually do what is advertised, which is more than can be said for some of the other ones.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 11, 2017, 12:31:09 am
It's fine to disagree, but personal attacks shouldn't be okay.
Post by: RAM on June 11, 2017, 12:34:55 am
Jesus, RAM. Tone it down, please. It definitely feels like you have a vendetta against me and you should really just tone it down a bit.Please site a personal attack. It looks to me as though all my references are to proposals rather than your person. Now if we want a personal attack, then I could say that you do not know what an alloy is, which is fine, everyone's knowledge is different, we can't be experts at everything. And you also do not seem to know what makes alloys difficult. Again, not an issue, just varying knowledge, but you raise "alloy" as a problem even though you do not know if it is an alloy and do not know if it would be a problem in context, which means that you are claiming know;edge that you do not possess, which is about as great a mental failing as one can possess.
It's fine to disagree, but personal attacks shouldn't be okay.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 11, 2017, 12:58:52 am
Someone break the tie, please, so I can put out a design tonight.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 11, 2017, 01:27:24 am
I do think that Andres is in support of the AS-R1 though. He seemed satisfied with the result after his edits were made. But I'm hesistant to move his vote for him because you can never be sure.
So right now I'd say it's a tie for the AS-R1 and Bird Cavalry. Probably the best chance of breaking the tie is someone switching their vote over to the AS-R1, since I mostly doubt Helmacon (or Andres) would change their votes.
EDIT: Or someone new voting, but that seems fairly unlikely?
Post by: evictedSaint on June 11, 2017, 01:31:30 am
Post by: Andres on June 11, 2017, 02:02:27 am
Unless you're willing to choose randomly (please no) I don't think there'll be an update tonight. Seems like anyone with the ability to break the tie is offline.The R1 does not help us take out their skyships which is something we need to do. If I were to vote for the R1 it would be a three-way tie between it, birds, and the gyrocopter.
I do think that Andres is in support of the AS-R1 though. He seemed satisfied with the result after his edits were made. But I'm hesistant to move his vote for him because you can never be sure.
So right now I'd say it's a tie for the AS-R1 and Bird Cavalry. Probably the best chance of breaking the tie is someone switching their vote over to the AS-R1, since I mostly doubt Helmacon (or Andres) would change their votes.
EDIT: Or someone new voting, but that seems fairly unlikely?
Glory to Arstotzka.
EDIT: ((GM, can you do a coin toss? I don't think it's fair to Moskurg for them to be kept waiting because of us.))
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 11, 2017, 02:05:54 am
The AS-R1 may not immediately help against airships by itself, but it gives us further advantage on ground, and helps a lot against their carpets which by far make up the bulk of their forces.
The AS-R1 design combined with my planned revision - crystal engines+cannons - to really help us at sea and ground. Their carpets will be much less of a problem just like their ground forces, and their airships will likely fall before they can destroy our Crystalclads. The main problem at sea is the fact that while it takes a lot of hits to down their airship, they can destroy our Crystalclads easily because there's a single weak point - the steam engine.
Making the steam engines out of crystal removes the weakpoints of our Crystalclads and makes them a lot more durable - to the point where they should be able to shoot down airships long before they suffer enough sustained damage.
Just anything but bird cavalry, really.
Post by: Andres on June 11, 2017, 02:11:07 am
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 11, 2017, 02:17:23 am
EDIT: Regarding a coin toss - while I personally don't like it (I really don't want bird cavalry) I suppose I don't really want to hold up the game. So I won't complain at all if there is one.
Post by: andrea on June 11, 2017, 03:16:43 am
Quote
DESIGN
3 AS-SPB-3 "Dreadnought" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480574#msg7480574) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, RAM(insane), Andrea
1 Ritual of the Enflamed Wasp(R) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
1 Jetbirds (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
1 Pillar of unmagic(R) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
0 Aether Blink (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480615#msg7480615) (w/ Research Credit):
4 AS-SPA-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480776#msg7480776) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, Andres, helmacon, Andrea
1 Celestedemorte: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480940#msg7480940) RAM
3 Giant Mutant Bird Cavalry: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7481015#msg7481015) Kadzar, voidslayer, RAM
3 AS-HR1 Steam Rifle (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7481303#msg7481303) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Andrea
I will say that I still believe that the gyrocopter is FAAAAAAAR harder than you make it, although a few revisions may fix it. or designs.
I still think we should use hot air baloons to help with lift.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 11, 2017, 07:38:35 am
I'll vote for the R1 so long as you don't take out the vote for the gyrocopter.And since I am not taking out my vote for the gyrocopter, his vote goes in.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Quote
DESIGN
3 AS-SPB-3 "Dreadnought" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480574#msg7480574) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, RAM(insane), Andrea
1 Ritual of the Enflamed Wasp(R) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
1 Jetbirds (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
1 Pillar of unmagic(R) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
0 Aether Blink (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480615#msg7480615) (w/ Research Credit):
4 AS-SPA-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480776#msg7480776) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, Andres, helmacon, Andrea
1 Celestedemorte: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480940#msg7480940) RAM
3 Giant Mutant Bird Cavalry: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7481015#msg7481015) Kadzar, voidslayer, RAM
4 AS-R1 Steam Rifle (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7481303#msg7481303) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Andrea, Andres
So right now it's a 2-way tie between the AS-SPA-1 and the AS-HR1 Steam Rifle. And the tie is because the same four people are voting for both.
...sorry, Evicted.
But uh, I'll just let others decide with their votes since I'm neutral on between the two. And I told Andres I wouldn't remove my vote for the AS-SPA-1.
Post by: andrea on June 11, 2017, 07:43:40 am
I am tempted to drop the SPA vote. Will think about it.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 11, 2017, 12:25:42 pm
Post by: helmacon on June 11, 2017, 12:32:00 pm
Quote
DESIGN
3 AS-SPB-3 "Dreadnought" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480574#msg7480574) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, RAM(insane), Andrea
1 Ritual of the Enflamed Wasp(R) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
1 Jetbirds (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
1 Pillar of unmagic(R) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
0 Aether Blink (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480615#msg7480615) (w/ Research Credit):
3 AS-SPA-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480776#msg7480776) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, Andres, Andrea
1 Celestedemorte: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480940#msg7480940) RAM
3 Giant Mutant Bird Cavalry: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7481015#msg7481015) Kadzar, voidslayer, RAM
4 AS-R1 Steam Rifle (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7481303#msg7481303) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Andrea, Andres
Post by: Kadzar on June 11, 2017, 01:11:01 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 11, 2017, 01:21:09 pm
Why do you hate birds so much?
You make a big bird, and then a bigger bird and soon you have a bird so big it destroys the world! Is that what you want? A giant uncontrollable bird wrecking the world?
Okay wait that is a good idea.
Post by: helmacon on June 11, 2017, 01:29:36 pm
At this moment though, I am against the further development if our birds. The problem as described to us is that our birds are vastly out numbered, and are getting murdered with lightning. Bigger birds would get just as murdered by lightning, and there is a chance that might end up more expensive too.
Post by: Andres on June 11, 2017, 01:39:51 pm
Quote
DESIGN
3 AS-SPB-3 "Dreadnought" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480574#msg7480574) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, RAM(insane), Andrea
1 Ritual of the Enflamed Wasp(R) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
1 Jetbirds (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
1 Pillar of unmagic(R) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
0 Aether Blink (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480615#msg7480615) (w/ Research Credit):
3 AS-SPA-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480776#msg7480776) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, Andres, Andrea
1 Celestedemorte: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480940#msg7480940) RAM
3 Giant Mutant Bird Cavalry: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7481015#msg7481015) Kadzar, voidslayer, RAM
3 AS-R1 Steam Rifle (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7481303#msg7481303) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Andrea
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Kadzar on June 11, 2017, 01:51:05 pm
Post by: andrea on June 11, 2017, 01:55:19 pm
Also, the SPA really needs a credit.
Post by: Kadzar on June 11, 2017, 02:01:44 pm
Post by: helmacon on June 11, 2017, 02:30:22 pm
Post by: Andres on June 11, 2017, 02:36:19 pm
What about the AS-SPA-1? That also has a research credit assigned to it.The SPA-1 is the design I believe the research credit should saved for.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: helmacon on June 11, 2017, 02:39:17 pm
If the steam rifle wins with a vote from either RAM, Kadzar, or Voidslayer, (or Andres if he switches back) then said person can direct my vote next design phase, either for bird cavalry, or whatever else you think is needed (Barring frost towers)
Post by: evictedSaint on June 11, 2017, 02:55:59 pm
@evictedSaint would the plains bonus apply to birds?
Sure, that seems reasonable.
Post by: andrea on June 11, 2017, 02:58:35 pm
Also, I have an XKCD showing that large animals are more vulnerable to lightning than small ones.
Post by: Andres on June 11, 2017, 03:03:21 pm
I'm willing to cut a deal with you bird people.
If the steam rifle wins with a vote from either RAM, Kadzar, or Voidslayer, (or Andres if he switches back) then said person can direct my vote next design phase, either for bird cavalry, or whatever else you think is needed (Barring frost towers)
Quote
DESIGN
3 AS-SPB-3 "Dreadnought" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480574#msg7480574) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, RAM(insane), Andrea
1 Ritual of the Enflamed Wasp(R) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
1 Jetbirds (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
1 Pillar of unmagic(R) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480534#msg7480534): RAM
0 Aether Blink (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480615#msg7480615) (w/ Research Credit):
3 AS-SPA-1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480776#msg7480776) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, Andres, Andrea
1 Celestedemorte: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480940#msg7480940) RAM
3 Giant Mutant Bird Cavalry: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7481015#msg7481015) Kadzar, voidslayer, RAM
4 AS-R1 Steam Rifle (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7481303#msg7481303) (w/ Research Credit): Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Andrea, Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 11, 2017, 03:07:28 pm
AS-R1 it is, with research credit.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 11, 2017, 03:51:17 pm
Vote locked before you can make another tie.
AS-R1 it is, with research credit.
Aww... but it's a tradition by now.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 11, 2017, 03:54:03 pm
You're repressing Arstotzkan tradition. Clearly you're biased towards Moskurg "cooperation".
Post by: Andres on June 11, 2017, 04:08:31 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 11, 2017, 04:10:19 pm
But yeah. I'd definitely say revising our engines+cannons to be made out of crystal so we can fix the horrific vulnerability in the Crystalclads.
Maybe we could fit in basic infantry armor as well, since it's all just material swaps.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 11, 2017, 04:23:40 pm
If they're not, crystal armor would be good.
Either way, though, electricity resistant crystal would be a very good idea.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 11, 2017, 04:34:12 pm
Your Mathemagicians start drawing some weird looks as they produce yet another cannon that's even smaller than the last one.
The new cannon is designed to be small enough that a single person can hold and operate it, removing the need for a wooden carriage or tripod. As we now have multiple cannon sizes now, we've taken the liberty of designating the sizes of each type of ammunition - this small cannon (a.k.a. a "rifle") uses a shell (a.k.a. a "bullet") that's slightly more than half the size of our HAC-1 cannon. Based on an esoteric measurement unit, we would say it's 16 mm's in diameter.
As thin crystal tends to rupture, the walls of the all-crystal barrel is about equal to the size of the bullet in thickness - earlier tests resulted in rather lethal explosions, necessitating a rather thick barrel. The barrel should be able to withstand firing indefinitely with crystal microrepairs. Being made out of crystal means the internal rifling is simple to add, gripping the bullet (made out of lead to maintain as high a density as possible) and inducing a spin. The barrel is about the same length as a mans arm. The bolt and trigger are made out of steel out of necessity; the trigger is a thin lever the length of a mans hand that extends along the handle. The bolt experiences frequent stress and high-pressure, and the extra weight of the steel allows it to absorb more of the recoil when fired. The stock is made out of crystal and rests against the shoulder of the operator; a leather pad encompasses the stock to make it more gentle on the user.
The small side of the firing chamber and bullet necessitates a smaller PSF to appropriately fit inside, described by our Mathemagicians as a Smaller Powerful Streamlined Fireball. The SPSF can be operated by two A-level magegems clipped into either end of our a newest invention: a "Scroll". The scroll is essentially a nickel circuit written into an copper sheet and then rolled into a cylinder about the length of a mans forearm. This reduces the size taken up by the circuit and allows it to be snapped into place along the side of the rifle. Wires connect the magegems to the circuit, and the circuit to the combustion chamber. An additional circuit wraps around the barrel of the gun and extends down to the combustion chamber to cool the weapon between shots. The gun can be fired about nine times a minute by a mage casting the SPSF directly into the combustion chamber, or four times a minute by a non-magical user replacing the A gems between shots - slower than a longbow.
Try as we might, however, the muzzle velocity of the gun is rather...lacking. Unable to project the bullet farther than short range, the new rifle is rather disappointing in is killing ability. Our mathemagicians point to the attempt to fire the gun without a water propellant - most of the energy from the SPSF is lost through heat rather than through expansion. Our steam cannons operate by flash-heating the water, which rapidly expands into steam to carry the bullet out of the gun, but our fireballs were never designed for that purpose. At the moment, the rifles are outclassed by a traditional longbow.
The crystal design makes the gun relatively cheap, but the expensive A-level magegems make it more expensive. Every wizard could be equipped with a rifle without the gems, but the necessity of the gems for mundane users makes them Very Expensive. If they were better than a longbow, they would be given to our Elite Anti-Mage troops.
Very Expensive for non-magic users.
Expensive for mages.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 11, 2017, 04:37:08 pm
Revision: Crystal Construction
See, the problem with steel is that it tends to be vulnerable to lightning.
Moskurg's tendency to use lightning is perhaps their greatest weapon over Arstotzka. Against individual targets it's still a competent weapon, but ultimately not anywhere near powerful enough to hold a candle to Arstotzka's glorious might.
The problem, is when they target our weak points. Namely our steam engines and cannons. Trains are constantly derailed after lightning hits their engine. Perhaps the number one cause for the destruction of a cannon and its crew is a lightning strike.
Crystal doesn't have the same problem. It's not vulnerable to lightning strikes in anywhere near the same way as steel is. And even if a Moskurger manages to get a direct lightning hit on crystal, the crystal will just suffer minor damage that'll be regenerated fairly quickly.
So the obvious solution is to use crystal. We've had experience with all-crystal mechanical designs. The AS-HAC-1, for example, [as well as the AS-SPA-1's engine], incorporate this all-crystal construction element. We can use the techniques displayed here and extend them to every instance of a steam engine, HA1, or HC1-E. No longer will our cannons or artillery be vulnerable to lightning. No longer will our Crystalclads be sunk by one lucky lightning hit. No longer will our trains be derailed after just one hit by lightning.
Every steam engine will be made of crystal. Every HA1 will be made from crystal. Every HC1-E will be made with crystal.
TL;DR: Start using 100% crystal to make all our steam engines, HA1s, and HC1-Es. Makes our Crystalclads (+ trains) a lot tougher since they no longer have an exploitable weak spot. Makes our cannons/artillery much tougher because they can no longer be destroyed w/ collateral damage in just one lightning strike. Probably a really good idea.
Quote
DESIGNS
1 - Crystal Construction (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482060#msg7482060): Chiefwaffles
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 11, 2017, 04:41:22 pm
Water Conjuration(a derivation of our conjure fog) could fix this problem, but we need something to fix our ocean battles first.
Buoy of Forever Frost: We've used crystal to make a smaller version of our towers of forever frost that is less powerful, but can float. Basically, now they're going to start freezing in their ships, and their lightning bolt spell isn't going to work as much now. It also turns the sea around it into ice, which lets us put cannons on said ice, creating defensive positions.
Quote from: Vote Buoy of Forever Frost
REVISIONS
1 - Buoy of Forever Frost: FallacyofUrist
1 - Crystal Construction (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482060#msg7482060): Chiefwaffles
Ninja: okay, sure. That'll do, but it might be better to prevent lightning from happening in the first place. After you critique the Buoy of Forever Frost, I'll probably change my vote.
Post by: andrea on June 11, 2017, 04:47:39 pm
By the way, I want to say a big "I TOLD YOU SO" to people who kept saying that a boiler is not needed and that our fireballs are a great source of concussive force. bulelts work because the explosionturns solid into heated gas, increasing volume icnredibly. Fireball just makes heat without any phase transistion, meaning the pressure is far lower. I have been saying this since before we got cannons.
Of course, had it been a 6 it may have been solved, but still it was 2 so I get to gloat.
Should be reasonably easy to fix. We also need better magegems to power the thing so it can be cheaper.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 11, 2017, 04:50:10 pm
But I think Crystal Construction is really important. The rifles won't help immensely at sea even if fixed. We need to make it so they can't just immediately sink our Crystalclads by hitting the steam engines. Crystal Construction also makes our cannons more resistant to their lightning, which is currently (I believe) the #1 method they use to destroy our artillery+cannons.
Post by: helmacon on June 11, 2017, 04:52:14 pm
Quote
If we don't fix the rifle this turn, may I suggest not deploying it?I was just about to post this.
If we had rolled anything other than perfect, our cost would have been national effort. Which is ridiculous. wew.
Maybe we ought to throw a revision into the crystal works to be making mage gems at the same time? I feel like lowering the cost of mage gems is the main way to lower the cost of our guns.
The pressure problem can be fixed by revising our bullets to come in a casing with a bit of an accelerant in the bottom.
Post by: andrea on June 11, 2017, 04:54:27 pm
Andrea, you do realize this is because of the 2 in effectiveness? It'd only really matter if doing the fireball propulsion gave us roll penalties.
Of course, had it been a 6 it may have been solved, but still it was 2 so I get to gloat.
I do.
had we roleld higher, I suppose we would have tweaked the fireball to give concussive force or as helmacon suggested put some combustible/explosive matter on the bullet.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 11, 2017, 04:56:51 pm
We should revise the rifle/magegems later. It'd be nice but ultimately just isn't the best option right now. We're winning pretty easily in all theatres except in the sea where their lightning is easily one-shotting our ships. And making our cannons out of crystal would help at land too as they couldn't destroy our emplacements as easily.
Post by: helmacon on June 11, 2017, 04:59:54 pm
Quote from: Vote Buoy of Forever Frost
REVISIONS
1 - Buoy of Forever Frost: FallacyofUrist
2 - Crystal Construction (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482060#msg7482060): Chiefwaffles, Helmacon
@EvS, can we get clarification on what exactly happens when lightning strikes crystal?
Post by: evictedSaint on June 11, 2017, 05:01:16 pm
-snip-
If it'd been two points lower, it would have been NE for non-magic users and VE for mages. Four points lower it would have been NE for mages.
Post by: andrea on June 11, 2017, 05:02:04 pm
Although on further thoughts I wonder if we might have had a bonus to effectiveness, had we used our more familiar steam action. Maybe, maybe not.
I agree, we can revise it later. We were just saying, if it is not made effective it should not be deployed this turn.
Post by: Andres on June 11, 2017, 05:02:38 pm
Post by: helmacon on June 11, 2017, 05:03:46 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on June 11, 2017, 05:11:16 pm
GM, how does the SPSF compare to the Streamlined Fireball?
SPSF is a bit less powerful, but considerably more concentrated than a Streamlined Fireball.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 11, 2017, 05:11:17 pm
For a new spell, what about a direct lighting shield spell? If we created around a target alternate pathways for lighting it could cause the strikes to ground out in other places, like the earth or water around the target.
I would support the crystal construction if ti was limited to our steam engines. Trying to do those and steel cannons at the same time is extra complications and unnecessary, it is at the sea where the lighting strikes are mattering.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 11, 2017, 05:14:56 pm
We're not making anything new. We're just changing metal to crystal in our steam engines and cannons.
Post by: helmacon on June 11, 2017, 05:19:10 pm
@EvS, can we get clarification on what exactly happens when lightning strikes crystal?
Post by: evictedSaint on June 11, 2017, 05:25:50 pm
@EvS, can we get clarification on what exactly happens when lightning strikes crystal?
It depends largely on the size and complexity of the crystal. Mostly it just heats up; if it's large enough, then that won't really do any damage (or at least any damage that microrepairing can't fix). If they're smaller, finer crystal connections in something really complex, it'll cause cracks or shattering. For example, it rarely happens, but if the crystal hull of the crystalclad gets struck rather than the steam engine, it's usually fine. The sudden influx of heat is often too much for the nickel circuits to immediately cool, and they need to themselves cool down from red-hot to start working again. On the bright side, they don't liquefy like the gold circuits did!
Post by: RAM on June 11, 2017, 06:00:07 pm
Also, I have an XKCD showing that large animals are more vulnerable to lightning than small ones.That I am abundantly willing to believe, but it might be possible to give them little lightning rods to seduce the lightning into less sensitive positions. I still think that big birds is a new field though...
Crystalclad reshaping
The obvious weakness of the exposed boilers is easily fixed by placing an armoured covering over them, with ventillation handled by redundantly numerous chimneys with crystal hats on them. While we were at it we also gave the cannons little ramps to recover from the recoil, adjusted the firing ports according to advice from experienced gunners, thickened and reduced armour according to experience of the structure, and experimented with tweaking the hull to increase speed, trying to reduce eddies and wake...
Rotting Escargot ammunition
We make shells that are thinner and make a summoning platform that generates a hollow crystal shell around the shell to make it the shape of a normal shell. This crystal covering disappears shortly after being removed from the platform and comes with a crystal hour-glass timer. The effect of this is to launch a smaller and lighter shell with the full force of a larger shell. This results in greater velocities and, once the outer shell is unsummoned(Preferably early in flight) a smaller projectile that displaces less air and impacts over a smaller surface area. The projectile has the same length(and greater average length) as a normal shell thus hitting with the same greater force over the small area it hits. These shells thus have greater range and speed and penetration but lesser impact force.
Furrybooms
We implement a timed detonation on our powerful streamlined fireballs and tweak their effect to be less fire and more ball, resulting in a greater displacement effect but causing less burning.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 11, 2017, 06:11:00 pm
We place a mage gem and nickle circuit system on our falcons. When they get close enough they move the mage gems to the circuit and explode in a fireball. Used to "dive bomb" airships.
Post by: RAM on June 11, 2017, 06:48:03 pm
Quote from: FallacyofUrist: Vote Buoy of Forever Frost. B-but, only if you w-want to! I-it's not i-important to me or a-anything!
REVISIONS
2 - Crystal Construction (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482060#msg7482060): Chiefwaffles, Helmacon
1 - Buoy of Forever Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482064#msg7482064): FallacyofUrist
0 - Crystalclad reshaping (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482145#msg7482145):
0 - Rotting Escargot ammunition (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482145#msg7482145):
0 - Furrybooms (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482145#msg7482145):
0 - Exploding falcons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482155#msg7482155):
Exploding falcons could be useless if they increase their altitude, or create a much more effective lightning defence, but it seems that they ought to work well enough and probably won't increase our falcon losses.
manually detonated fireballs might be vulnerable to antimagic, so a timer was used. We already have spells with durations so it shouldn't be that much of a stretch. It would also give us some movement in the direction of an explosive that can actually make a rifle work...
Discarding sbots are what we need right now to make our artillery effective against the greater altitudes or heavier armour that they are likely to produce next turn.
Ooooh, ooh, idea: tracer rounds. Should be dead easy if someone wants to make a revision for it.
Crystalclad reshaping would block that obvious hole that has been sinking all our ships, along with some minor performance enhancements, and give us some hydrodynamics as well if we are lucky.
The buoy makes sense. We do need to quell their storms and if we can do the celestedemorte then this would put it at sea... I do not see anything else being this powerful in a revision. Kind of risky though.. Frozen seas would be unstable and I would expect less "frozen sea" and more" lots of little ice flows that could cause problems. But turning off their weather magic would be nice. I am still not entirely certain how they are using weather magic to make storms and not forcing their air force to scrub the mission due to bad weather. One would think that they are spending their entire magical reserve just keeping their airships from capsizing...
Crystal construction does, to me, seem a bit optimistic. Lightning does destroy crystals, and metal is actually extremely good at protecting against lightning, it is just a matter of having enough of it. Honestly, their fire pots are doing more harm to our crystalclads than the lightning is and it is sort iof ridiculous that lightning would strike a metal boiler that is sitting in a crystal tub. The lightning only veers into metal if it is a faster route to equalisation. If the boilers are positively charged for some reason, then making them out of crystal won't change their lightning suction at all. If they are not positively charged, then the lightning should find the big slab of crystal around them, say "huh, well it is a fast road but it goes sideways to my destination, so why would I go ther when these rickety old roads will still get me there faster..." and go another way. It seems tht crystal must be at least equal with air in conductivity which would mean that it doesn't really address that issue much. Still a good thing, mind, just that it is pretty minor at actually protecting our crystalclads.
Post by: helmacon on June 11, 2017, 07:09:18 pm
@EvS, can we get clarification on what exactly happens when lightning strikes crystal?
It depends largely on the size and complexity of the crystal. Mostly it just heats up; if it's large enough, then that won't really do any damage (or at least any damage that microrepairing can't fix). If they're smaller, finer crystal connections in something really complex, it'll cause cracks or shattering. For example, it rarely happens, but if the crystal hull of the crystalclad gets struck rather than the steam engine, it's usually fine. The sudden influx of heat is often too much for the nickel circuits to immediately cool, and they need to themselves cool down from red-hot to start working again. On the bright side, they don't liquefy like the gold circuits did!
Actually, if our boilers are getting struck by lightning, they should be big enough to be fine if made from crystal. At worst, it disables the circuits within, and the ship is stuck until they cool down. Still, its a lot better if lightning just stalls our ships rather than exploding them.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 11, 2017, 08:24:05 pm
I can't do it all at once, so here's a rough draft-type thing for the foreword of my plan.
Trek through Forenia: Foreword
Arstotzka prides itself on its knowledge and mastery of the natural world. Thanks to the tireless efforts of our Mathemagicians, we know much about the reality that surrounds us.
A true education isn't achieved through pure study, though that is an important part. A true education is achieved through seeing in person how Arstotzkan knowledge shapes and exploits the world around us. This is why in order to reach his full potential, Björn must travel through Forenia. Tons ee what we're fighting for. To see the people that'll be subject to his rule. To see our mastery of magic and reality at action, and to truly know the power of magic.
Post by: RAM on June 11, 2017, 08:34:33 pm
Can we use bird-taming to train him?
Post by: helmacon on June 11, 2017, 08:40:55 pm
A train ride would be good, but we should try to capitalise on our academy. I mean, fundamentally, this is about education, and we have an education facility...
Can we use bird-taming to train him?
If we had ever revised our mind spell to something further, then probably. As is, probably not. If we used this revision to advance it this turn, then it might be possible. We still have Myark as his personal mentor, right?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 11, 2017, 09:51:00 pm
Post by: RAM on June 11, 2017, 10:49:40 pm
It is not about making a good wizard, it is about making a good king. We are looking at personal defence and making an impression. I do like the idea of expending Myark's time on the effort. Crystal magic seems wrong. He can have others summon crystals for himself. Wasps and webs are weak against the enemy, but in friendly lands they are impressive abilities. Fireballs are obviously our best actual 'magic' so those would probably be ideal. I am tempted to give him a broad foundathion in magical theory at the academy, but not bother with too much details. He should know the efforts involved but doesn't need to be capable of them personally. He needs fireball. Blowing up 100 men with a gesture is something that any capable monarch ought to be able to do. I like webbing, it allows him to spontaneously form a barrier, it ought to be a good trick to be able to promptly fortify a space from intrusion. And having a personal stash of magems with which to temporarily bolster his personal reserves beyond mortal ken...Give him a sack of magams and he can outcast an army while having the skills and spells to refute underhanded stuff. He shouldn't be overloaded, this is far from our complete arsenal. The academic stuff should be possible in half a year, the equoment training should mostly be a matter of using the equipment while doing other things, Two similar fire spells and a well known web spell shouldn't push the time. There should be plenty left over to just familiarise themselves with everything. Flooding them with magic by poiring a significant supply of our magems should not be a problem. The only thing lacking is humility, but Myark should know a thing or two about that...
So: With a constant supply of magems to last all day long.
Personal tutelege and sparring with Myark
Mathemagics 101
Thaumonometry 101
Geomagry 101
Streamlined Fireball
Boiler-scale Firewall(for the convenience of a warm hearth or hot stove at will or Kegger-burning at will)
Web
Charging and draining magems.(Do this first so that he always has magic available with which to train)
Training with heavy armour
experience with sensing antimagic from charms and knowing exactly how far a charm needs to be to lose its effectiveness, so that he may use a charm for protection but quickly remove it, recover his magic from gems, and then be a full wizard in moments.
A train tour of the devastated jungles.
What we are up against is probably mind-reading. Hopfully they will hook theirs up to Aye'Muh'Treason who is experienced with being a magical prodigy and the kid will be filled with knowledge that he has no practical experience using and insufficent magical talent to use.
Although, I suspect that The G.M. is looking for some flowery language and vivid descriptions and a long, tragic tale of glory, honour, and shame... So if we have any prospective authors here, I will probably give them my vote...
Quote from: FallacyofUrist: Vote Buoy of Forever Frost. B-but, only if you w-want to! I-it's not i-important to me or a-anything!
REVISIONS
2 - Crystal Construction (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482060#msg7482060): Chiefwaffles, Helmacon
1 - Buoy of Forever Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482064#msg7482064): FallacyofUrist
0 - Crystalclad reshaping (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482145#msg7482145):
0 - Rotting Escargot ammunition (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482145#msg7482145):
0 - Furrybooms (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482145#msg7482145):
0 - Exploding falcons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482155#msg7482155):
0 RAM's Plan (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480611#msg7480611):
Post by: Andres on June 12, 2017, 03:53:50 am
Quote
REVISIONS
3 - Crystal Construction (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482060#msg7482060): Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Andres
1 - Buoy of Forever Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482064#msg7482064): FallacyofUrist
0 - Crystalclad reshaping (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482145#msg7482145):
0 - Rotting Escargot ammunition (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482145#msg7482145):
0 - Furrybooms (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482145#msg7482145):
0 - Exploding falcons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482155#msg7482155):
0 RAM's Plan (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480611#msg7480611):
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on June 12, 2017, 04:08:40 am
Quote
REVISIONSMostly because I don't expect it to freeze a significant area. But the again... Ehh, but it is a large hole in our equipment distribution os fixing it is not terrible.
3 - Crystal Construction (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482060#msg7482060): Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Andres
2 - Buoy of Forever Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482064#msg7482064): FallacyofUrist, RAM
0 - Crystalclad reshaping (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482145#msg7482145):
0 - Rotting Escargot ammunition (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482145#msg7482145):
0 - Furrybooms (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482145#msg7482145):
0 - Exploding falcons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482155#msg7482155):
0 RAM's Plan (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480611#msg7480611):
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 12, 2017, 04:12:06 am
Anywhoo.
The Shaping of Something Greater: Bjorn's Journey
A Foreword
Arstotzka prides itself on its knowledge and mastery of the natural world. Thanks to the tireless efforts of our Mathemagicians, we know much about the reality that surrounds us.
A true education isn't achieved through pure study, though that is an important part. A true education is achieved through seeing in person how Arstotzkan knowledge shapes and exploits the world around us. This is why in order to reach his full potential, Bjorn must travel through Forenia. To see what we're fighting for. To see the people that'll be subject to his rule. To see our mastery of magic and reality at action, and to truly know the power of magic.
Bjorn won't just learn spells. He won't just learn some tricks. He will learn of Magic. Its raw power. How it can be used and exploited. He will be taught of the base our Kingdom shall rely on for the rest of its time. He will experience it practically, and won't just study the theoretical fireball at the academy. He won't just cast fireballs, but will know how they work.
By the end of the year, Bjorn will be ready to become something greater than anything Arstotzka has seen.
The Academy
His journey will start at the Academy, just like any other apprentice-in-training. It is here where Myark shall meet with Bjorn. Bjorn will study at the most intensive classes under our best teachers with the best possible resources all dedicated to him. Out of class, he will train and practice one-on-one with Myark.
He will learn the fundamentals behind magic - how it works. He will dive into the guts of the mechanics of Mathemagics. He will earn the process through which Crystal is summoned from the aether, and how we have refined on that process. He will learn how magic is channeled through a wizard. He will learn how circuitry operates, and how magic interacts on tiny scales. It will be through his studying at the Academy that Bjorn will truly learn how magic works. This knowledge shall form the base of the rest of his education. With a comprehensive knowledge of how magic works, Bjorn will know how to exploit it. He will be able to make informed decisions regarding any element of magic. He will be able to make the best use of his spells instead of mindlessly parroting the motions and phrases taught by teachers. If he comes across some magical phenomenon he hasn't seen before, he will be able to learn about it and easily determine what it is using his fundamental knowledge, instead of being stumped at the unknown.
Bjorn shall even visit the labs where our esteemed top Mathemagicians convene every day to come up with
Throughout all this process, Myark will be there for him. He may not enjoy it, but Myark shall guide Bjorn through his time at the academy. He shall ensure that Bjorn fully understands what he learns. He will grant Bjorn supplementary knowledge that is only acquired through decades of combat experience. He will practice and train with Bjorn whenever Bjorn isn't studying under our best teachers.
Eventually, Bjorn's relatively short time at the academy will be over. Thanks to his natural intellect, the dedication of the Academy's resources and Myark to him, he will know far more about how magic works than any other apprentice.
The Falcon
It is at this point that Bjorn, accompanied by Myark, shall make his way to the battlefield. And throughout this entire time, Myark will always be helping and teaching Bjorn as well as protecting him.
But first, Bjorn is given his first Falcon. Over the course of a few days, Bjorn will be introduced and familiarized with the best available Falcon. Myark shall teach him how to command and control it. Over the course of his journey, Bjorn's falcon will always be at his side. The two will grow attuned to one another; familiar to one another.
The Falcon will truly become Bjorn's familiar by the end of the year. Bjorn will continue using this falcon for the rest of its life, and will gain valuable experience with his first familiar.
The Journey
Bjorn and Myark shall board a Crystalclad bound to a port next to the mountains. Over the course of Bjorn's trip on the seas, Myark shall teach him the most important spell known to Arstotzka: The Fireball.
Bjorn will practice with the use of the Fireball and its variants with Myark. He will observe the operations of the steam cannons and steam engines aboard the Crystalclad. He will become familiar with the importance of the Fireball to Arstotzkan society. By the time they arrive at the Mountains, Bjorn will become familiar with the Fireball. His time at the academy taught him how it works, but his practice here will allow him to truly hone his skills.
In addition to studying the Fireball, Bjorn will spend some amounts of time each day studying the crystal structure of the ships. He may have learned of Crystal at the Academy, but here is where he will see it in action. He will watch as the crystalline steam engine bearings repair themselves from the routine damage, and more.
The Mountains
The Mountains is where Bjorn will begin maturing into a fine wizard.
Bjorn and Myark shall accompany the local Mage Hunters as they eliminate the remaining opposition from the mountain. Bjorn will see his first combat use of the Fireball and his Falcon. He will meet with the occupants of the sparse villages located in the Mountains, and he will visit the metal mines. Bjorn shall learn things here which the Academy could never hope to teach him.
Bjorn shall learn of our fierce weaponry here at the mountains. A future king must know what his soldiers fight with. He shall start with the AS-HAC-1, under the guidance of Myark. Bjorn will learn how to operate the already-easy-to-use weapon, but with Myark teaching him and his knowledge from the academy, he will know how it works.
With this knowledge, Bjorn won't just be taught to use the AS-HAC-1. He will be able to exploit it to its fullest potential. He will know of every part in it and how it works to create the bigger picture. A future king doesn't need to know how to use his kingdom's weaponry. He needs to know where to use it; why to use it; how it works. It is with this knowledge that a kingdom can be properly ran.
Bjorn shall also be taught the use of the HA1 and the HC1-E. This teaching should only take a few days at most, as they largely share the same parts and training of the AS-HAC-1; just at a larger scale.
Eventually, Bjorn will be brought to Myark to one of the Mountains' Towers of Frost. Bjorn will be shown circuits at action here, and with his knowledge from the Academy, Bjorn will easily learn the application of circuits and how they interact to shape reality. His time at this tower will be short, but it will teach him much.
Finally, his time at the Mountains will eventually end, and Bjorn will have to leave in order to make it back to Arstotzka by the end of the year.
The Trip Home
Bjorn and Myark shall embark home on a AS-STV-1 Restless. Except Bjorn won't just be a passenger, here. By now, Bjorn will have learned much of the fireball and how to use it and will have had practical experience using it both in practice and combat.
Bjorn will power the train. He will run the steam engine through the trip home. This shall teach him resilience and determination as he builds on his experience with the steam engine from his time on a Crystalclad. He will be pushed to the limit of his abilities as he strains to continue powering it. Myark will push him to keep on going even when he feels he may break.
By the time they arrive at Arstotzka, Bjorn will be experienced with magical endurance, resilience, and most importantly, determination. With his experience both with the steam engine and the cannons back at the Mountains, Bjorn will know truly how magic is used in Arstotzka's machines and technology.
The Crystalworks
Finally, Bjorn and Myark shall make one last stop before arriving at the Palace. They shall meet the Foreman of the Crystalworks. Bjorn will be guided painstakingly through the course of a day into the process in which modern machine crystal is created. He will build on his knowledge of circuits from the Academy and Frost Tower. He will build on his experience with Crystal from the Academy and the Crystalclad.
Bjorn will see how circuits summon in Crystal. He will learn how the Crystal is shaped. He will see the process in which new crystal formats are created. By the end of the day, Bjorn will know how Crystal is created, and how exactly it works. He will have extensive knowledge of a material essential to our kingdom.
A Conclusion
Ultimately, Arstotzkan society is not a society of spells. It is a society of knowledge and machinery. In Bjorn's time as king, he will not need to know a few party tricks. He will need to know of Magic - the one thing his kingdom is built upon.
A future king must know how magic works. He must know how the weapons his soldiers use work. He must be aware, knowledgeable and skilled with the practice integral to all of Arstotzkan society and the continuing war with Moskurg. In the end, it's not memorizing spells that matters, but rather knowledge of how it works. With this knowledge of magic and the technology used in Arstotzka, Bjorn will be able to make informed decisions. He will be able to easily further his knowledge of magic in the future. He will know how magic can be exploited and used to further Arstotzkan dominance.
Bjorn will be something greater.
Bjorn shall become the first Wizard-King of Arstotzka.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 12, 2017, 11:11:37 am
We set up production to use crystal rather than steel for all our cannons and steam engines.
The fact that crystal can't flex like steel means the walls must be significantly thicker to prevent cracks from occuring. Microrepairing should prevent microfractures from propagating, and our cannons can operate without danger of explosion. Some of the more complex portions of the boilers must still be made out of steel, however - the increased thickness and remaining steel portions results in only minor decrease in weight. A cannon should be able to survive being struck by lightning at least once, but don't put much stock in them being completely immune to lightning.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 12, 2017, 11:11:59 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 12, 2017, 11:20:54 am
Quote
HEIR TRAINING
1 - Bjorn's Journey (Chief's plan) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482428#msg7482428): Chiefwaffles
So for the future, I'm thinking we should use our design and revision to just upgrade existing tech. Rifles, AP rounds, better crystal, better Magegems, etc.
We have a lot of new designs with potential but they need to be upgraded to be really useful.
I know that there was some politics right before the vote for this turn's design, but seriously. We can do better than giant falcons right now. Remember last time we repeatedly introduced new designs instead of working on improving what we already had? That was when we lost the advantage we had at the time. Let's not lose our advantage again.
But I'll save most of this for when it's actually the design phase.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 12, 2017, 11:30:46 am
Quote
HEIR TRAINING
1-2 - Bjorn's Journey (Chief's plan) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482428#msg7482428): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist(conditional on adding research lab visit)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 12, 2017, 11:33:19 am
EDIT: I really like this revision idea.
Future Revision: Absorbing Crystal
Our Crystal tends to have a problem where it handles explosive blasts somewhat worse than steel of the same thickness, due to Crystal's brittleness.
This can be easily fixed! We don't need to completely change the structure of Crystal (making it not crystalline) and remove its brittleness; we can add blast-absorbing traits to it. The principle is the same as our anti-magic technology in a way, except for kinetic energy and pressure. When experiencing sudden large amounts of heat, pressure, etc., Crystal will absorb the energy into magical energy. We use our experience from the Equalizer and with Crystal Regeneration to "reroute" the magical energy into self-regeneration or other safe avenues instead of keeping it stored in the crystal where it could become unstable.
The conversion rate is by no means perfect. Theoretically in the future we could maybe use this to generate tangible amounts of crystal energy, but for now the actual magical energy gathered by the crystal is far too small for anything of real use.
The result is obvious: Blast-resistant crystal. Explosions, heat, pressure - everything - will no longer be able to damage our crystal.
The AS-R1 will be smaller and lighter. Every single cannon will be smaller and lighter. The steam engine can be made completely out of crystal and will be smaller and lighter. Crystal will become the go-to material for all machinery, and steel will become a thing of the past! Lightning will become less effective against Crystal as large portions of its energy will become magical energy instead! Everything we make out of crystal will become resistant to explosions, blasts, and other sudden bursts of energy!
Post by: Andres on June 12, 2017, 01:43:41 pm
Quote
HEIR TRAINING
3 - Bjorn's Journey (Chief's plan) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482428#msg7482428): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Andres
MYARK
1 - Help train the heir: Andres
ORDERS
1 - Do not deploy our R1. Let it not appear at all in the next battle report: Andres
Our R1 is useless right now, but if Moskurg knows we're developing handheld firearms, they could find a way to counter it by the time we make it useful once more.
Future Revision: Absorbing CrystalPerhaps we should instead allow our crystalworks to make crystal out of varying levels of flexibility? The fact that absorbing crystal turns the blast energy into magic energy would mean we'd have to reroute the power to somewhere if we start making things out of it. That's acceptable for some things, but less so for others, such as in firearms. Also in firearms, we don't want the blast energy getting turned into magic energy, we want it being used to propel the bullet outwards. Flexibility is a less powerful upgrade but it can be applied more freely and to more things.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: helmacon on June 12, 2017, 02:15:09 pm
Route lightning rods down into specifically made hyper absorbent Crystals. When they hit us with lightning at all, it just gives more power to our war machines.
Post by: RAM on June 12, 2017, 03:15:36 pm
Quote
HEIR TRAININGI think that Bjorn's Journey is too ambitious. It is a full course at the academy along with a tour of our entire territory INCLUDING a sea voyage and actual combat. I ought not need to mention that the seas are a bit dangerous right now and the front lines don't really exist right now. I suspect that we would need to work at it to get our heir killed, and that Myark+guards is enough to guarantee that it doesn't happen, but I would prefer to not take that risk. I just don't see all of that happening whitin a year and I could easily see something going wrong. Also I feel that it spends too much time away from the academy, which is where our big advantage lies.
0 RAM's Plan (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480611#msg7480611):
3 Bjorn's Journey (Chief's plan) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482428#msg7482428): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Andres
MYARK
2 Help train the heir: Andres, RAM
ORDERS
2 Do not deploy our R1. Let it not appear at all in the next battle report: Andres, RAM
Post by: helmacon on June 12, 2017, 03:21:12 pm
Combat is a no go. Especially on the seas.
We ought to stick to the academy, with lots of field trips to places like the Crystal works, or taking a ride on one of our trains. We could have Myark spar with him if he wants to learn combat magic.
Post by: Andres on June 12, 2017, 04:39:07 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 12, 2017, 05:21:47 pm
Quote
HEIR TRAINING
0 RAM's Plan (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480611#msg7480611):
3 Bjorn's Journey (Chief's plan) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7482428#msg7482428): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Andres
- 1 Don't make the heir act as a spotter, leave plan otherwise intact: FallacyofUrist
MYARK
2 Help train the heir: Andres, RAM
ORDERS
3 Do not deploy our R1. Let it not appear at all in the next battle report: Andres, RAM, FallacyofUrist
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 12, 2017, 08:26:45 pm
It's in the mountains, accompanied by Myark and an elite unit. Thats as safe as one can get. They're just going to be hunting down the stragglers and small raiding parties that haven't given up on the Mountains yet.
EDIT
The idea here is to bundle a ton of small improvements into one design instead of wasting a revision on each.
Future Revision: AS-R2
The AS-R2 is a straightforward improvement to the AS-R1.
This iteration includes further tweaking to its custom SPSF spell. The SPSF is modified to distribute the majority of its energy via expansion and pressure instead of heat. This leads directly to a much higher muzzle velocity. The transfer of magical energy to kinetic is leaps and bounds higher than before, making the bullet exponentially faster.
The practical result here is very obvious. The AS-R2 will gain a huge increase in stopping + piercing power, perhaps even matching that of the AS-R2. In addition to this, its range should be drastically increased as well.
This is, in my opinion, a better idea than cheaper Magegems because cheaper Magegems doesn't change size and won't affect AAA gems as they're already cheap. This makes all gems better.
Future Revision: Better Magegems
Really, the premise of this project is simple: We stuff more power into our Magegems.
We have plenty of experience storing magical energy in Magegems, but we never really looked past the simplest implementation of this. A Magegem stores energy inefficiently. The structure of a Magegem isn't optimized for storing energy. There's a lot of wasted space in each gem that could be used for storing much more energy.
And as always, we can fix this. By making some careful tweaks to the process we use for creating Magegems, we can optimize their structures. Magical Energy will flow much more easily inside the new and improved Magegems. We can think of it like a tank for some kind of liquid - if your tank has lots of unnecessary mass on the inside, it'll have a smaller capacity. By removing this waste inside the tank and reorganizing its insides, you can store much more inside the tank. It's the same thing for Magegems.
The end goal is also simple - better Magegems. We don't know how much, but each Magegem should be able to store a lot more energy in it and Magegems should actually be useful for once.
...
Or we can use our design on Magegems then our revision on the rifle. Much better Magegems would really help the rifle and future efforts. Maybe. Or the other way around, perhaps. Some way to make the rifle just Expensive for mundane troops would be really nice.
Post by: Andres on June 13, 2017, 01:46:41 am
Future Revision: AS-R2It should not be an R2. It shall continue to be an R1 because the R1 isn't being changed at all, it's the spell powering it that's being changed.
The AS-R2 is a straightforward improvement to the AS-R1.
This iteration includes further tweaking to its custom SPSF spell. The SPSF is modified to distribute the majority of its energy via expansion and pressure instead of heat. This leads directly to a much higher muzzle velocity. The transfer of magical energy to kinetic is leaps and bounds higher than before, making the bullet exponentially faster.
The practical result here is very obvious. The AS-R2 will gain a huge increase in stopping + piercing power, perhaps even matching that of the AS-R2. In addition to this, its range should be drastically increased as well.
To that effect, you are coming at the solution from the wrong angle. While it reaches a sufficient conclusion, it does not reach an optimal conclusion.
Instead of revising the SPSF, which is what you're essentially doing, you revise the fireball family of spells, which means the Streamlined Fireball and the Powerful Streamlined Fireball, not just the Small Streamlined Fireball. It still gives us an SPSF that's beneficial to our R1, but it also gives our mages an SF and PSF that produce great amounts of pressure instead of great amounts of heat, which will be useful.
In the case of the PSF, for example, not only would our mages have better ability to destroy fire-resistant targets, it will open the way for our artillery pieces to no longer require water, simplifying logistics, lightening the artillery piece, and increasing rate of fire.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 13, 2017, 01:55:19 am
I do think we should at some point revise all our cannons to skip the boiler, but I don't think it's feasible to do both that and fix the [SPSF/Fireball spells] in one revision. Personaly, I think a better idea is to revise the SPSF to use mostly pressure instead of heat, then in a later revision extend that modification to the rest of our fireball spells (extremely easy since we already did the legwork) then remove the boiler in our cannons (the actual meat of the revision).
Maybe we could revise pressure variants of all our fireballs now, instead of just doing it for the SPSF. But even though it is a straightforward and singular change, that'd be creating three new variants in just one revision, and I'm not sure how Evicted would react to that.
And yeah, sure, keep it the AS-R1. The name's mostly because I was originally trying to make it a design, but couldn't think of enough immediate improvements at the time to make it a design instead of a revision.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 13, 2017, 01:57:58 am
On the other hand, since we can make a fireball inside a tube usable by non mages, why not just shoot the fireball out.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 13, 2017, 02:02:42 am
But yeah - applying the old fireballs to the cannons and the revised variant to the rifle would work. Like I said in my last post, the best ways I see of doing it are either just revising the SPSF then using that experience to very easily make variants of the rest of our fireballs when upgrading our cannons to remove boilers. Or we could revise variants for each fireball now, but also like I said, Evicted may not like making three variant spells in one revision despite how much reasoning it has.
Post by: RAM on June 13, 2017, 02:29:57 am
Explosive fireballs:
Redirect energy from heat to increase the explosive radius and force at its destination.
gives our mages an SF and PSF that produce great amounts of pressure instead of great amounts of heat, which will be useful.Just dropping by to leave an "I told you so" because I can. No offense meant, it is just that the spirits of ideas past would haint me if I didn't.
Post by: Andres on June 13, 2017, 02:50:10 am
Without revising the other cannons to remove the boiler, I feel like doing the revision for the whole family of Fireballs would hurt our cannons.I said it "opens the way" to artillery pieces that don't need water, not "removes water necessity from our current artillery pieces".
Personaly, I think a better idea is to revise the SPSF to use mostly pressure instead of heat, then in a later revision extend that modification to the rest of our fireball spells (extremely easy since we already did the legwork)This is underambitious and very inefficient. The fireball spells are all practically the same, so it can be expected that making a change to one of them can very easily be applied to all of them. A revision for something as utterly small as giving one fireball's modification to a near-identical variant of that fireball is utterly wasteful.
If you fear it being too ambitious so much, phrase it as "we create a modification of our fireballs that swap heat for pressure/expansion, the first of the ones we work on being the SPSF". Then, if for some reason we need a high die roll for the modification to apply to SPSF, SF, and PSF, we'll at least get it for SPSF and then the others if we get lucky.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 13, 2017, 03:03:49 am
Future Revision: Blastball
Magic is, of course, a science. Things can be tweaked and adjusted with ease. But some things come easier than others.
Like the Fireball.
We've had the Fireball since the very beginning. We've experimented with it, and utilized it to its fullest potential. The Fireball forms the basis of nearly all Arstotzkan technology and society today.
We have experience with the Fireball. Our Mathemagicians know it inside and out; they know every detail of it and how exactly we utilize magic to create the various types of Fireballs.
We can utilize our extensive knowledge with the Fireball to make some simple changes to it. Today, the Fireball isn't as relevant as it once was. Moskurg's armor threatens to make fire practically obsolete, and our new methods of projectile propulsion require a new type of Fireball.
Enter the Blastball. It's merely a variant of our Fireball, but with the extreme majority of its magical energy going towards pressure and a general "explosion" instead of simply heat. This has multiple uses - when a large-enough Blastball is detonated in an uncontrolled explosion, it'll do much better against Moskurg's armor than anything that came before. When detonated in a controlled environment, it creates muuuch more pressure than ever before, making Blastball-propelled bullets extraordinarily fast, with great piercing capabilities, muzzle velocity, and range.
The Blastball is a variant of the Fireball, and the goal by the end of the year is to have a Blastball variant for each Fireball type - SPSF, PSF, and the SF. The SPSF Blastball variant is the most critical one, followed by the PSF and SF.
TL;DR: Revise the Fireball to use mostly pressure instead of heat. SPSF Blastball variant is the most important, with the PSF and SF variants being the second most and least important respectively (but preferably all are done via this revision). The Blastball should be effective against Moskurg armor, and extremely effective as a magical propellant for bullets/shells whatnot. The AS-R1 immediately benefits from this, with a greatly increased muzzle velocity increasing stopping power and range by potentially huge amounts.
With our extreme amounts of experience with Fireballs and the tweaking thereof, this revision should be easier than normal.
And before you say anything: DAMNIT, ANDRES; IT'S A GOOD NAME.
Post by: Andres on June 13, 2017, 03:23:41 am
And before you say anything: DAMNIT, ANDRES; IT'S A GOOD NAME.I agree. It's a good name.
It's just that applying that name to the spell you're proposing is a bad choice.
The acronyms would have to match the spells they're based on. For SPSF and PSF it's fine (SPB and PB), but what about SF? SF would be B, which is no acronym. It must have two names and Blast Ball is silly (unless it's for some kind of ball that blasts things, then it would be appropriate).
Acronyms are important.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 13, 2017, 03:33:27 am
Blastball-R (Regular - SF)
Blastball-SP (Small Powerful - SPSF)
Blastball-P (Powerful - PSF)
Or BB-R, BB-SP, and BB-P
Or something like that. Getting a legible naming system for fireballs should probably be a priority at this point, honestly.
Post by: RAM on June 13, 2017, 03:49:12 am
FurryboomsBut hey, we got a minor buff to our cannons and boilers so that they explode after two easy shots instead of one. WoooOOO!
We implement a timed detonation on our powerful streamlined fireballs and tweak their effect to be less fire and more ball, resulting in a greater displacement effect but causing less burning.
It would have let us revise all our cannons next time. Getting it to work with all of our cannons and all of our spells seems a bit ambitious for a single revision. It involves a lot of minor tweaks to a lote of varied spells. Meh, it'd probably work, but still, we could really use a tune-up of our fireballs and, ergh, kind of feel that we mostly wasted a turn here... But once we have the groundwork for less fire more ball then we can apply it to all fires. Then we can do explosive cannons, forceballs, hyperjump firewalls and wasps with exploding venom...
Then again, maybe it would be better to have a full design sort it out in preparation for the universal revision to all our fire spells...
Erection of Everywhere Explosions
A Tower of frost tuned to an explosive variant of the streamlined fireball that sacrifices all of the heat of the fireball to maximuse the force that spreads it around. This crystalline tower includes a lightning rod and a covered plafrom which acts as the focal point of its magical energy. This allows a skilled wizard to wield a massive volume of balls that travel a fixed distance and then explode into a burst of force, flinging anything nearby around, and easily crushing anyone who is near to the centre and toppling any flying vehicles. Also features a lightning rod.
There are a lot of tweaks here, but it should all be familiar ground, and should make for a defensive intallation that can capsize anything that they put in the air. The trick after that would be to put it onto a boat...
You just sometimes have to wish that one could foresee the value in these sorts of things before they bite us...
forceball
Post by: andrea on June 13, 2017, 03:53:02 am
Anyway, if we master concussive spells, internal blastball engines are a possibility that could be far more compact for applications such as gyrocopters.
edit: mind you, it would take a long time to get it working right, better steam engines may still be better at least for some things like ships and trains. And we have better things to do first like magegems and rifles.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 13, 2017, 03:56:07 am
Oh yeah, that's a thing too, Andrea! We get closer to internal combustion engines with Blastball. An Interlnal Detonation Engine would be perfect for a gyrocopter, too.
Just something for the future. I don't really want another steam engine where we have to spend multiple actions making the engine then put it in our stuff. But if we were to get enough experience to be able to do a proper one in just a single action, thad'e be great.
Post by: RAM on June 13, 2017, 04:23:12 am
From that description, I am not even sure of what the furryboom should do.
Quote
We implement a timed detonation on our powerful streamlined fireballs and tweak their effect to be less fire and more ball, resulting in a greater displacement effect but causing less burning.I am really not seeing a problem. "Timed detonation" seems pretty self evident. It detonates based upon timing, exploding after a period of time.
"Less fire and more ball" separates the "fireball" into its heat effect from beign a fire and its ball element which illustrates that it explands into a large shape, thus insinuating that there is an expansion element to the normal spell. If the spell possesses an expansion element, then focusing on that element oughtto be plausible. IT is justifying how the spell would be plausible as an extension of current theory rather than being a completely new element of the spells.
"greater displacement" indicates that it displaces more, specifically air, unless it detonates underwater... Given that an explosion is just rapid explansion that displaces the surroundings, this seems pretty self-explanatory.
"Less burning" points out where the power for the increase displacement will be coming from. Thus not trying to create a greater spell than currently exists, just a readjustment to make it more useful.
It is just that this one seems unusually succinct for my fare and I really honstly don't see how it fails to indicate the intention. Does it need more illustration of why this effect would be useful?
@RAM: It's almost like the effectiveness roll matters.It does matter, but so does the design. We could have ended up with mediocre stuff instead, and on a good roll we could have had somethign that was useful by itself, rather than needing an additional technology to get it to an angle at which it would be useful. Rifles are not going to help with enemy airships unless we can increase their armour-pentration by a lot and they won't work against anything if the enemy increases their altitude. We are already pushing the limits of usefulness from our cannons interms of range and penetration, smaller guns are the popposite of what we need unless we are chasing some dream of infantry standing in trenches with rifles. They could be grand if we can ground the enemy forces, and the pillar of unmagic and the various convection towers could potentially do that if anyone cared to try them, but without the ability to get an indivicual infantryman into the air there is no value to having an individual infantryman rifle. We could have gotten three sixes and they still would have failed against a single mediocre-rolled revision for more altitufe.
The crystals have never been immune to lightning or heat. A six on a revision would not have made them immune to lightning or heat when making them immune to lighting and heat wasn't even mentioned. This was never going to be more than retardant armour. It got an average of +1 hits to kill. That is double. It went about as well as one could expect. Certainly, rolling 6 and getting, let's say, a dozen hits to kill, would have been much nicer, but it isn't exactly a paradigm shift.
We got exactly what we asked for, smaller, less powerful guns and a geometric increase in resiliency of some of our equipment. Bad rolls really didn't change that much. If we had gained insane success with the design then it is possible that we could have gotten something equal in power to our existing guns, and ended up with a more effective force, proviede that the enemy remained within range.
Unless my assumptions are wrong? How would this turn have gone if we had rolled 4 sixes?
Post by: andrea on June 13, 2017, 05:25:32 am
It should be within the scope of a single turn to make a working one, however.
That or we use pulsejets.
@RAM about furryboom
I don't need illustration of why concussion may be useful, just I didn't find the description clear enough to understand what exactly was going on and the name of the design wasn't helping. [hyperbole] As far as I knew, it might have been summoning afurry armadillo rolling toward enemy lines [/hyperbole]. Nice to see it clarifyied.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 13, 2017, 05:44:06 am
But this turn wasn't as useful as it couldn't have been since we got a 2 in our design's effectiveness and in our revision. Despite this, it's going to help a lot this combat phase.
The revision is actually really useful, it just could have been better. Keep in mind that their lightning has been hitting our steam engines, causing the rest of the boat to catastrophically explode. Now, their lightning should mostly just immobilize our boat for minutes at a time until the mages+self-regen can restore the engines. Our cannons can now reliably survive lighting at least once. That's 200% of its former durability, and it's just at least once - not only once or no more than once. At least.
Before, they could one-shot our cannons to destroy them and kill their crew. Now they need to sink at least two hits into each cannon before it goes down, giving their crews time to react and for AA fire/Falcons to hit the carpets/airship. Our Crystalclads can reliably kill airships, it's just that they used to not last long enough to do that. But with our lightning-resistant cannons and engines now our Crystalclads should be able to easily take down airships before they're sunken. Carpets now have to consistently attack each ship instead of the ship being sunk as soon as a single carpet gets in a shot.
The rifle isn't useful this turn, but it has extreme potential. With just one revision, the rifle can become a very competent weapon that we'll be able to field very effectively.
@Andrea: My point is that I don't want to have to spend design after design to make a sidegrade to the Steam Engine. Spending a revision or something to fix it or something similar is fine and all, but at this point in the game we shouldn't be wasting too much time on theoretical stuff.
The IDE is already very possible - Pistons and the like are a reasonable step up from our current mechanical knowledge, the combustion/detonation stuff should be handled with Blastballs, coordinating can be handled with circuits (like you said), and materials-wise it'd just need some kind of upgrade to crystal making it more blast-resistant. For engine lubricants, it can be handled via changing the properties of Crystal or something. Maybe somehow using some fluff with Crystal regen or just include a minor tweak to the crystal in the design.
I do really want to make the Internal Detonation Engine. Perhaps with a few more revisions that double as preparation for the IDE in addition to their main goal, we can make the IDE. Though probably a better idea is to just make vehicles first (even a Gyrocopter) then making the IDE so we get definite substantial improvements.
Post by: RAM on June 13, 2017, 08:16:30 pm
@RAM: I'm not even going to bother actually addressing your continued attacks on my stuffThat looks a lot like addressing to me, but ehh. We rolled a lottle over 3.4 average last round, which is very close to average, you really can't complain about that. It was upgraded to a 4 with the wasted credit, which is a decent increase. More to the point, it got us two sixes, and zero ones, which is a huge bonus. The first six meant that there are enough to actually use, even though we don't want to use them. The absence of bugs, and this scroll thing that I don't entirely understand yet, seem good, if it had bugs then it would be a probper disaster trying to field them, as it is we just don't want to because, well... A 2 effectiveness is enough to get a useful item if the design is good. We already pushed the small cannons angle as much as we could reasonaby expect to, and you took out a major component and expected a bonus rather than a penalty... Not to mention that we are effectively fighting vehicles. Carpets may not be armoured, but they could be, and they could phase out the carpets completely and concentrate on airships, they already did that with their ground-ballista... Fundamentally, the issue with vehicles has always been that small-calibre guns don't work. Smaller and lighter are fundamentally weak in terms of range and effectivness against armour. A very good man-portable rifle might get close to a kilometre in range, or almost 2 kilometres if they are using obscenely large calibres and thus hope to have something other than their arm to brace it against, which is not likely to happen if they are shooting up and aiming along the barrel. Then there is the issue of firing angles, 2 kilometres horizontally is easier than 2 kilometres straight up and if you are shooting at any sort of angle then you start rapidly losing altitude.
...
But this turn wasn't as useful as it couldn't have been since we got a 2 in our design's effectiveness and in our revision.
There have been large-calibre artillery with more range than that since long before The Great War... A man-portable gun just isn't a good choice against aircraft.
it seems you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the game's mechanics.My understanding of the mechainics:
It is easier to do things with magic than mechanisms, but you can get greater effects from using magic to leverage mechanisms. Also great rolls can do amazing things. Our armour was the product of many many good rolls, and it got us stuff almost as good as gothic plate. We also got some good swords. This is what we can do with mundane equipment combined with very good rolls. Given the materials and methodology that we had on hand, the steam engines should have been impossible. Making somethign that doesn't break wasn't really an option. E.S. said as much but by the time anyone noticed the ship had sailed. The ame thing happened with lightning. If our armour wasn't heavy, if it wasn't full-body metallic, then it might have made sense, but heavy full-body metallic armour should, at the very least, make serious internal injuries from lightning nonexistant, The worst case ought to have been more hit with less severity, which is pretty much what heavy armour does to everything else too. But by the time I noticed it the lightning thing had many turns sunk into it and it was an established break from reality. We CAN slip these things by if we have no shame or genuinely don't notice it. I am kind of perturbed about the rifling too... But using summoning justifies the otherwise impractical manufacturing processes of things like rifling, and we can also justify extreme material stresses with large volumes of regenerating crystal and large crystal constructions due to its low weight meaning that it has less of itself to support.
In short, it is about 1000 A.D. and has the mechanisms and materials to match. If we try to do anything mundane it will use those technologies, with a bit of a boots to what is possible, but still fundamentally limited to that timeframe. Every thing that exceeds that timeframe needs to be leveraged with magic. If there is a mundane component then we need to justify how magic is leveraging it or else we will get a penatly to it.
An internal combustion engine(I.C.E.) is a mundane object. Using material and construction from 1000 is not going to produce an I.C.E. that functions. Our crystals can help, they are equal to steel in general performance and the regeneration largely mitigates their brittleness. Unfortunately, they are equal to steel from the year 1000... We could potentially force the crystal to grow/summon through a metal in order to enhance its shock-absorbancy. Or we could summon crystal around a lump of metal with a hollow in it, in order to make a pressure-sink. Or we could just build the thing our of normal crystal and pray for a 6 on bugs and a generous adjudication. And then there is the complex structure. To the best of my recollection we haven't been summoning a lot of moving parts. I don't doubt that we CAN summon a spoke with rotating attachments and perfectly-sealed cylinders and whatever else, but it seems like spintaneously generating a complex mechanism like that would, at the least, be the primary element of a whole revision that could easily end up with no useable products and might be best done as a pure technology revision with no products attempted.
If you are trying to build something that is impossible with current tools(most everything that you would want to make at this point in the game) then you need to point out why magic makes it possible, or suffer penatlies to the roll.
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Magic research on the other hand consists of progressing from existing magics.
A completely unrelated magic is very difficult and very weak. Plant growth and mind control both granted us very little, and the mind control was a leverage for quickly taming existing animals, but it still only got us ordinary hawks.
A magic that is already possessed is very easy. We can make pretty much any solid shape of crystal and smaller fireballs are a non-issue. We just know this stuff and can pile a heap of it on without concern.
A magic that is related is a judgment call based upon how related it is. Rapid plant growth to larger plant growth is moderately easy. Rapid animal growth is slightly difficult, but doable, as plants and animals are very different but it is the same effect. Either of these might be a revision, but both at once is too much, and without a bonus effect from a six, we would be limited to just that instance and further instances, such as giant horses, would be a revision and freedom to make everything giant, thus turning our entire civilisation into some sort of land of frost-giants or something, would be at least a design and probably a couple of revisions beyond that to get a happy ending.
Giant killer man-eating vines would be quite difficult, we can get them to grow, but it move and murder? It would be a somewhat difficult design, but doable. We would most certainly end up with something out of it, even if that something wasn't overly impressive. Using tree-roots to grab things and crush them? Or even to perform manual labour with the sort of strength that can rip into the side of a mountain? With constant direction, sure, should be fine. Bake a living tree that can help out around the place under its own discression? I would think that to be too much of a departure from "tree grows fast". We would need to justify it with something, like "we already have this root moving spell, we just keep training the trees to act as hard-working members of society, along with a gentle nudge from the wasp-summoning spell to imprint them with a snese of awareness, and then throw in a dash of hawk-taming magic to grant them the sort of ordered mind necessary to compose epic poems about the struggles of a tree that is assigned to work in a dark mine, and we have our treeants in only a couple of design actions a revision to teach them to walk and to stop them from eating people.
The "game's mechanics" is a simple matter of expanding our magical knowledge, either by easy steps or difficult leaps, and simultaneously leveraging that magic into practical uses, which might be allowing otherwise impossible mechanisms to function for more effectiveness, or might be doing directly impossible things with pure magic. There is also a limited pool of magic based upon our apprentices. So highly intensive activities may result in more power for a shorter timeframe or a reduced quantity.
Does anyone have a different concept of the game's Mechanics that they can put into words? I tend to be terrible at putting things into words, so I imagine that it is not difficult to best me in this field.
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[b][u]Every Life Magic(E.L.M.)[/u]
We have many instances of life magic, but it is all haphazard and specific. By extending mathemagic into this field, we hope to isolate all our knowledge of magic's interactions with life and forge a unifying theory of all such interactions. We know the spontaneous generation and cessation of life from summoned wasps. We know the form of life from mondifying fire wasps, we know the mind from taming hawks, and we know the progress of life from growing plants. Thism combined, is enough for a full life barring one vital element. We hope, with this grand effort, by identifying all that exists of life except the most important element, to isolate the pure Arstozkan spirit. With knowledge of birth, growth, death, and beyond, knowledge of mind, body, and spirit, Knowledge of form and substance, we hope to begin a grand venture into the shaping of our living world to meet the ever-changing needs of survival and glory.[/b]
Grants a comprehensive understanding of life magic and should make future efforts in that field easier.
[b][u]Prears[/u]
Pear trees that draw gems from the ground and deposit them into fruit. Granting a greatly increased gem harvest and furthering our knowledge into plant modification.[/b]
[b][u]Glowood Staves[/u]
By implanting powdered gems into the nub of a forming dogwood staff, we create one that shines in the light and has the same effect upon gems that a normal dogwood staff has upon plants. It was made possible by the discovery that gems, like salt and sugar, can grow, and that they do so in a way similar to wood, and posses a structure similar to wood. This made it easy to transfer the effect of the staffs onto gems and cause them to grow. A large gem can be broken into many smaller gems and the growth can be commenced upon those smaller gems, so this is hoped to increase the quantity of gems and also produce much larger gems. Thus gem products should be come cheaper and a larger form of mage gem, named "B" Mage Gems or colloquially "Magam Bs" for inverstion appeal and brevity, is created.[/b]
Post by: evictedSaint on June 14, 2017, 10:15:55 pm
Combat for 939
Arstotzka is working on something secret and mysterious for their design, but it's not quite ready yet. For their revision, they make their cannons out of crystal in order to combat Moskurgs growing lightning advantage. The cannons can survive getting hit, usually, but may not hold up well to multiple strikes. More delicate crystal structures, however, are likely to suffer from the first strike. This crystal effect also applies to their steam engines, which are now made of crystal as well.
Moskurg develops (to everyones surprise) a new weather spell that affects their lightning. Named the "Wrath of Allah", the spell fails to distort the winter storms into warmer weather, but does allow lightning to be called down despite the snow. Their revision turned out to be a bit harder than they expected, and will not be making an appearance this turn.
Moskurg hits hard this turn. The jungle is the first place to see the effects of their new spell and just how powerful a naval advantage is.
For the first time in three decades, one side has actually managed to land troops behind their enemies lines. With enough coastal ground gained, Moskurg can safely use their fast-moving Sirocco's to deploy troops far up the coast to flank Arstotzka troops. The glowing ships are very visible at night, so the crews generally paint the Adamantium black with tar. This makes many soldiers nervous that they may be blaspheming the holy metal, but our mages assure them that it's fine and there's nothing to be concerned about. The landings occur in the snow, which isn't unusual for the jungle at this point - what is unusual is the fact that when the two sides join in combat, pin-point lightning strikes down from the heavens to fry Arstotzkan troops. The Spear of Allah, which has been unusable for two decades, finally sees use in danger-close situations with enemy troops. Mages standing aboard Alsamma Safina's high above have a clear vantage point of the carnage below, and much like mighty Allah himself they are free to pick-and-chose their targets...so long as they can see them.
Arstotzka makes good use of their artillery, when they can. Landing ships are bracketed with artillery fire, but the lack of explosive ammo means they must hit the target dead on. A single HA1 shell will sink Sirocco, but the cannons rely on mass-firing solutions and flare-based spotting (which also helps defend against night landings). Their HAC-1's are good for defending at closer ranges, but the slow rate of fire means the gap can be closed before enough Moskurg soldiers can be killed to make a difference. In fact, the debilitating cold weather kills more Moskurgers than the HAC-1's (if you don't count carpet-bombers shot down by sharp-shooters).
Being able to finally use their lightning after multiple decades of absence has certainly been a boon to Moskurg, and combined with their naval advantage they manage to push Arstotzka back a section of jungle.
Moskurg gains a section of jungle.
The mountains likewise see pushback.
The new crystal cannons are nice and shiny, even if they are a bit bigger. Crews quickly get used to firing them with no real penalty to the switch over. Artillery emplacements in the mountains are still subject to Moksurg carpet-bombers, but the fact that a bomber must loiter and strike an emplacement multiple times means a nearby HAC-1 gunner has plenty of time to line up a shot on the completely undefended rider. War Pegasi riders mostly give up on trying to strike down and disable the cannons, instead going for crews instead. Their airships must likewise hang back, but all they need to cast from their deck is line-of-sight with their target. They can't get close enough to the emplacements to cast the more accurate Spear of Allah, but the Hammer strikes indiscriminately around the mountain. Blasted rocks hiss as snowflakes land on their charred surface, and Arstotzkan soldiers hunker down and pray that they don't get smited by the divine will of Moskurgs God. Castles are a bit harder to displace, but non-stop lightning strikes and carpet bombers buy ground troops time to get close enough to storm the gates. Crystal Caltrops, Firewalls, PSF's, and HAC-1's do a decent job making life difficult for ground troops, but Moskurg eventually prevails secures a foothold in the Mountains once more. Their men are still dying from cold and artillery strikes, but at least they're not being struck by lightning constantly.
Moskurg has gained a foothold in the mountains. Arstotzka loses their metal bonus.
Again, the plains see Arstotzka pushed back and Moskurg regain a section of the flatlands.
Moskurg lands behind Arstotzkan lines, Moskurg mages fry Arstotzkan troops, and Arstotzkan guns smash ships and men alike. Had Moskurg not been able to put out their lightning again, or gone without their naval advantage, it would have been a close match up - Arstotzka's artillery is much more powerful here, and there's no tree cover for fliers. But as it is, Arstotzka gets pushed back and loses a section of plains.
Moskurg gains a section of the plains. Arstotzka has failed to hold it for a year and will not gain the plains bonus.
With Arstotzka pushed out of the Eastern and Western Seas, most of the fighting ends up occurring in their home waters.
Their engines see a more profound effect from their new crystal structure than the cannons did. Rather than exploding in a critical, devastating ball of steam and twisted metal, the engines usually are just knocked off-line when struck. The crystal is thicker than the metal walls were, and more brittle, but it conducts electricity without melting and forming a weak spot. The worst effect is when the few remaining metal components are destroyed like the turbine fan and a few valves and gears, but those can be easily replaced. The nickel circuits don't slag and run out of the engravings like gold used to, so a Crystalclad can usually survive being struck by lightning once or twice before a crack becomes too critical for the self-administered microrepairing to fix - but the on-board apprentice can usually patch that before it's too late.
What's more devastating is the fact that the crew is forced inside by the lightning strikes, meaning they can't man the cannons without risking being struck by lightning. Without a way to fight or flee, they're easy prey for Moskurg ships. It takes a lot of work to sink the ship with the ballista, but eventually enough bolts in the same spot will start a crack that propagates throughout the hull. It's not as much of a one-sided fight as it was last year, but Moskurg manages to maintain the upper-hand on the seas and push their control further north.
Moskurg gains a section of the Northern Sea.
Revision Credit!!!
Spoiler: Moskurg: Hayat Salbi (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzka: Bjorn Lodbrok (click to show/hide)
Both sides call their Master Wizard from the front-lines to train their heir.
Hayat Salbi, daughter of the late Queen Sofia and Sultan Salbi, is trained personally by al-Mutriqa. Her education delves mostly into the theory behind magic, building the foundation for future growth. She is trained in meditation, physical strength, Divination theory, the effects of the Tubikh Rrahim, and lots of prayer. For actual spells she is educated in how to use Gust of Wind and the Wand of Thunderbolts, which her teachers insist on limiting her progress on - she quickly grasps the knowledge of how to fire off lightning bolts and fry targets with surprising accuracy for an Apprentice-level mage. She takes to flying on the War Pegasi easily, and to no-ones surprise becomes one of the best riders in the kingdom. She names her personal War Pegasi "Queens Will" to match her eventual ascension to queendom. Much harder to learn is the Gust of Wind and Mind-Reading spells, which due to their expensive nature are difficult to grasp. She makes surprising progress though, and at the end of the year can - with great difficulty - cast both spells. Because her training includes physical training, she also grows to be quite the warrior. Acrobatic and fast, she periodically performs daring stunts on her War Pegasi over the city, such as balancing on one-hand on the very end of the rolled-up carpet. Despite scaring her handlers, she lands safely and with a round of applause from al-Mutriqa.
Bjorn Lodbrok, son of King Lodbrok, is likewise trained personally by Myark. His education is one part formal and two parts informal; he begins at the Arstotzkan Academy of Adequate Apprenticeship and goes through the same rough, rudimentary training that all apprentices go through. From there, he's taken up by Myark for a more hands-on training. His education largely consists of the fundamentals of magic - how it works, what's known, unknown, and how to manipulate it. He gains the rank of Mathemagician by the end of the year, having barely managed to gain the necessary knowledge to earn the title in time. Unlike his father, Bjorn is smaller, skinnier, and grasps magical concepts much more quickly. He takes up the Fireball spell easily, as it's in his blood as an Arstotzkan. He also learns the rudimentaries of crystal-casting and falconry, and gains a pet falcon that he promptly names "Reckless Effect". Everyone agrees that it is a cool name, and is very fitting. His training extends into the Tower of Frost, but unfortunately not enough time is spent there to learn how to power it himself. He does get plenty of training using the cannons and trains, and by the end of it all he's quite tired of being used as a living battery, but at least understands the use and tactical effect of the equipment the side uses.
Hayat is ultimately frustrated, feeling like she wasn't being taught enough and that she was being coddled. She performs her daily prayers in the morning, noon, and evening, but does so with little apparent enthusiasm. Her tutelage under al-Mutriqa sees her begin to adopt his rather unhinged love of chaos, if not his fervent religious faith. Towards the end of the year of her training she is absent several times from her prayer and training sessions; each time Queens Will is missing from the stables.
Bjorn ends up being frustrated as well, feeling as though the many mages in Arstotzka are being underutilized as batteries. He is interested in magegems, but they ultimately are not included in his training. The train ride proves to be his greatest test, powering a steam engine for long periods of time without getting bored. The trip to the mountains proves to be disastrous, as Moskurg makes an unexpected incursion up the slopes. He is nearly killed by a Moskurg carpet-bomber, but Myark manages to save the young princes life before pulling him further north to safety. Myark seems to have rubbed off onto Bjorn, as the berserker periodically flies into a blind rage for one reason or another. Myark adopts his own brand of fury, but a different one - cold and deadly.
Ultimately, both sides train their heirs rather equally. Bjorn ultimately learns more, but most of the training involves powering devices rather than the fantastical feats of magic mages are known for. Hayat learns a little less, but her training proves to be a bit more practical and useful on the battlefield.
Both sides gain a Second Revision this turn.
It is 940, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 940 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Behavior Rules. Please Read.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 14, 2017, 10:38:12 pm
No more cannon improvements for the moment. We need area advantages, anti-flying, and better shells.
Here's my plan.
Design: Exploding Shell: Yeah, enough with this. We make use of our knowledge of the Powerful Streamlined Fireball, which can take out a squad in one shot, and do two things to it: emphasize the explosive power as opposed to the burning power, and stuff it in a crystal shell(made by crystalworks!) so that when the shell breaks, as occurs upon impact, but not when being fired due to the increased toughness of the back side, it goes off in a large explosion. Stretch goal: different levels of Exploding Shell with different explosive potencies, Exploding Shells for all of our cannons. If we can only do one caliber, do the HA1 size.
Revision: Conjure Water: We've worked out how to adapt our Conjure Fog spell into a variation that conjures the liquid form of it: water. This can be used to speed the firing rate of our cannons, provide nourishment for our men(if a permanent version is used) and get our AS-R1 working properly.
Revison: Beachfront Frost Tower: We've created a Frost Tower variant that projects only in one direction, but more potently. It's designed to be placed on beaches, freezing the water there and preventing disembarkment.
Quote
1 - Fallacy's Plan: FallacyofUrist
Post by: helmacon on June 14, 2017, 10:59:19 pm
Energetic Transfusion
A long thin stip of metal, fixed upright. It can be fixed to the ends of ships, or carried into a battlefield by specialized soldiers.
This is the entirety of the physical design. It should more or less be a non factor.
The majority of the design is the energetic transfusion spell. The idea that magic is something from beyond our world is a myth. It, quite obviously, exists within our reality, and while it may not be a natural process per se, it still interacts with physicality in predictable ways. As our mathemageicans have quantified and come to understand these interactions in ever greater detail, our ability to direct it has grown exponentially.
Regular magic is the idea of turning magical energy into natural forms. From mana, to fire. Energetic transfusion seeks to turn natural energy into magical energy. For the sake of simplicity, it only focuses on electrical energy for this first foray. The setup is simple. Use a lightning rod to attract the lightning. Route it through a circuit with the appropriate spell, and pump that magical energy back into a mage gem. It is simply the inverse of what we have been doing for a long, long time.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 15, 2017, 12:07:38 am
And their lightning has switched from hurting our cannons to hurting our personnel. Our Crystalclads are destroyed because their crews are forced inside to avoid the lightning, and on the ground they're targeting our people with their lightning and not the cannon. So what if we made some new armor?
Design: Combat Armor
Plate Armor has been a great boon to our soldiers, but the advantage it has given them isn't as great nowadays due to changes in the battlefield. The soldier is still critically vulnerable to lightning, gaps in the protection can be exploited by Lucky Strike and just luck in general, the weight slows our soldiers down, and more.
But we can fix that!
Combat Armor is a new crystalline form of Plate Armor, modified to take full advantage of its crystal nature and to protect our soldiers as the nature of combat changes.
The first change is, of course, Crystal. The metal in our plate armor is replaced with 100% crystal. Crystal protects more against every threat and self-regenerates. It's also significantly lighter, improving our soldiers' combat agility in addition to making piercing their armor much harder, especially for Moskurg's armor-piercing arrows.
Next is the helmet. Previously, the slits for vision were exploited by Moskurg's lucky shot. But by tweaking the Crystalworks circuits, a new kind of mostly-transparent Crystal can be made. This crystal is used in the helmet's faceplate instead of cutting small holes for vision. The result is a much more secure and safe helmet with greatly expanded field of view+vision thanks to the fact that practically the entire upper front portion of the helmet is made of transparent crystal.
Finally, as a part of the Combat Armor design, we make some general modifications to Crystal.
The first modification is electrical insulation. By making some tweaks to the Crystalworks formulas, we make crystal an insulator of electricity. This will stop lightning from being able to affect the occupant in combination with the other properties of Crystal.
The second modification is tougher crystal. We make further changes to Crystal's structure. Crystal should be significantly less brittle and be notably tougher in general. It'll still have its self-regeneration, but will be much more resistant to blasts and any other damage. With this change, Crystal should be undoubtedly superior to steel. It'll be more durable, less brittle, harder, and just tougher in general.
These modifications can be made at the sacrifice of Crystal's sharpness if needed, as we have no need for sharp crystal when it's used in a structure or armor.
The armor also benefits from crystal self-regeneration, as one would expect from armor made of crystal. Therefore, maintenance is nearly obsolete as nearly all combat damage (and most lightning strike damage) can be repaired by the crystal self-regeneration. Because of the scale of the armor, damage enough to necessitate repair by a Mage is much rarer in Combat Armor compared to our larger-scale crystal armor. And the fact that any Mage can easily repair critically-damaged Combat Armor is still very useful, as steel armor that badly damaged would have to be sent back to Arstotzka for repair or just straight-out replaced. If the occupant survived.
As Combat Armor is made out of machine Crystal and is essentially an advanced revision to Plate Armor, it should be Cheap. But in the case of a limited supply, the armor is to be given to those crewing artillery emplacements, those on the decks of our Crystalclads, and other roles essential to combat.
Combat Armor should make Moskurg's lightning practically useless. The lightning will virtually be ignored by the armor, and as our magitech is now largely lightning-resistant, their lightning will no longer have the effect it used to have. Our crews can continue manning cannons to shoot down carpet riders and airships even as lightning hits them. And the rest of the Crystal improvements will make the armor a very protective design.
The increased protection from crystal means our soldiers live much longer in combat. The decreased weight makes our troops more agile and able to do more while retaining their increased protection. Our troops will do much better in actual combat.
The transparent faceplate and crystal means our soldiers will be practically invulnerable to Moskurg arrows. Even their bolts will have to be more accurate to kill a soldier, now.
The ease of repairing crystal and its self-regeneration means maintenance is practically obsolete as most combat damage is quickly auto-repaired and critical damage can be easily repaired by any apprentice.
TL;DR: Crystal plate armor that uses a transparent-crystal faceplate and insulating+tougher Crystal. Lighter, no more weak-spots for arrows and other lucky hits, better protection in general, self-repairing/easy-to-repair, and protects against lightning. See above lines for a bit more detailed description of benefits.
Crystal Material - Combat Armor's base "feature" is essentially just a material swap of plate armor from steel to crystal. Crystal is lighter, increasing agility. Crystal is harder, increasing combat protection. Crystal is slightly more brittle than metal, but at this scale an explosion that would shatter crystal would likely kill the wearer anyways. Benefits from the Crystalworks.
Transparent Crystal Faceplate - We tweak some crystal to become mostly transparent while retaining all other crystal qualities. As a result, the majority of the upper-front section of the helmet is transparent crystal, allowing greatly improved visibility over platemail and eliminating the weak point that Moskurg lucky strike exploited. Combat Armor should basically be immune to arrows because of this and its harder material. Considering we have the Crystalworks and immense experience with crystal, a simple tweak lke this shouldn't really be difficult at all.
Crystal Electrical Insulation + Tougher Crystal - Modify Crystal to insulate against electricity, and modify Crystal to be tougher/more durable + less brittle preferably to the point where Crystal is straight-up superior to steel. These are done via tweaks to the Crystalworks, which should make changing Crystal's structure easy. That plus our extreme amounts of experience with Crystal should make this change easy to do. This can be done at the expense of Crystal's sharpness, as that's not needed in armor/structures.
Self-Regeneration - Crystal is self-regenerating, meaning this armor is much easier to repair. Most combat damage is pretty small-scale, and should be auto-repaired, making maintenance largely obsolete. And critical damage that would normally render steel armor useless or at least requiring a skilled smith to repair, can be easily and (relatively) quickly repaired by any apprentice anywhere.
Difficulty - Combat Armor is a natural evolution of plate armor, so if anything we should gain bonuses for that. The crystal material swap is an extraordinarily easy task that could likely be done in a very easier-than-normal revision. The transparent crystal + crystal modifications are simple as we have extensive experience with crystal's properties and we have the Crystalworks which should make modification easier. Combat Armor should be easy to make.
Expense - Considering that Plate Armor is cheap and that we have the Crystalworks, Combat Armor should very easily be cheap. It's more-so a material swap to Crystal, which is as-cheap as Mountain steel if not cheaper plus some modifications to Crystal that shouldn't increase expense, especially given the Crystalworks + our experience with Crystal.
EDIT: Added expanded tl;dr section.
EDIT: Swapped lightning resistance for electrical insulation + tougher crystal.
Makes Energetic Transfusion easier to do in a revision, and makes their lightning much less effective against our soldiers which was our weak point last combat phase. And for our revisions, we should do Energetic Transfusion and Blastball. Get our rifle working and negate their lightning advantage even furter.
Quote
DESIGNS
1 - Combat Armor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485621#msg7485621): Chiefwaffles
Plans?
1 - Fallacy's Plan: FallacyofUrist
Post by: helmacon on June 15, 2017, 01:20:07 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Couldn't resist a quick doodle of the future arstotzkan soldier.
He wears full fitted crystal armor in a sealed suit. The suit is made from solid crystal plates with internal joints layered over a sealed rubberized interior. A patch of transparent crystal provides vision from within the armor. The crystal itself provides unparalleled protection against physical threats, and the sealed suite even provides protection against environmental hazards.
He is armed with an AS-R1, with an attached bayonet. His backpack contains extra mage gems for his weapon, and a small lightning rod funnels enemy attacks down into an energetic transfusion array, that protects him from lightning and recharges his used mage gems so he is always with an ample supply for his weapon or any other field devices he may need to operate.
Also
Black crystal
Crystal is a strong and cheap substance, far better than the materials we had access to before. However, this does not mean it cannot be improved.
The main weakness of crystal lies in its homogenous nature. While on one hand, this make it strong, it is also what allows cracks to propagate, and shattering to occur.
Black crystal is ultra thin layers of regular crystal summoned asynchronously over one another. A special process is than used to magically bind the plates together. Each sheet is regular crystal itself, and this allows the material to keep the super resistant properties of regular crystal, but the asynchronous nature prevents shattering, or cracks from propagating. At best, immense force from an impact can shatter the outer layer of the material, but the remaining layers would stay unaffected. If a layer is not shattered by a blow, it is thin enough that the regenerative properties of crystal can repair it in short order. The crystal is "Black" because the asynchronous traps light, and prevents it from propagating the way normal crystal does. This requires a bit more time dedicated to the production, but produces a far superior product. It is intended to be used for vehicle and naval armor, in in rare cases for elite infantry units. ((Crystal Commandos when?))
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 15, 2017, 03:20:06 am
- Crystal Jacketed Lead Bullets (Making the AS-R1 extremely effective in terms of armor-piercing. Personal armor shouldn't be a problem now, but it could be one in the future.)
- Blastball/Muzzle Velocity (Highest priority - we can make do with our current bullets if we give them a reasonable muzzle velocity.)
- Better Mundane Use (Right now it has a slow RoF and is Very Expensive for mundane users. Considering it was meant for mundane users, this is a problem.)
- Smaller (Just generally more portable. Not a pressing issue, but it'd just be nice to have the AS-R1 be a rifle and not a hand cannon.)
- Better bullet loading (Low priority - mundane use is important and right now mundane use is limited by Magegem reloading. Would still help for Magic+Mundane users regardless though.)
I think +Powerful Magegems would really help here in addition to the Blastball. More powerful magegems means we can use AA Magegems in the AS-R1 and with a high enough roll, could even get more shots out of a single Magegem clip. The AS-R1 would be just Expensive for mundane users and could have a bit of a higher RoF because the AA Magegem Clip would be smaller and thus easier to load.
And now for things we could do just in general:
- Lightning Counter - We're losing in every theatre solely because of lightning. We need to counter lightning.
- Effective AS-R1 - Make last turn's design useful; it has potential but that potential has to be realized first.
- New Crystalclad - See my Dreadnought design for last turn. We need a new boat to cement a sea advantage. Having an advantage at sea would really help with our battles on land as well.
- Better Crystal (Blast Protection [Black Crystal], etc.) - Keep our crystal stuff from suddenly being countered with one Moskurg action
- Better Steam Engine/Internal Detonation Engine - Getting a better engine helps our Crystalclad + Train and opens the door for further use of the engine, such as the Gyrocopter.
- Gyrocopter - A competent air unit to counter their air + provide ground/sea support. It may be harder than Giant Birds, but it's more versatile and has more potential - adding more seats/increasing power, upgrading its cannon, etc.
Also helmacon, I really like that doodle! It's actually remarkably similar to my
Post by: andrea on June 15, 2017, 03:33:24 am
As for design, we need something to fight them on the sea. Dreadnought would be nice, I guess. Although, going for fully enclosed crystal armor is very tempting... In one turn we would introduce super infantry.
edit: a good anti lightning is also a fair possibility. They are pushing that angle a lot, but a few lightning rods or faraday cages should help greatly. Just like our fire can be countered by ignifugous things because it is mundane after summoning, so can their lightning be countered by electrical conductivity.
If we manage to use it to recharge our batteries, all the better.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 15, 2017, 03:42:06 am
If we could develop a really nice actual anti-air cannon then I'd probably support a non-lightning-counter design, but as long as they have an air advantage they'll be able to use their lightning. As long as they can use lightning we'll be at a large disadvantage. Countering lightning can really help us in every theatre.
For now, I mostly just want to do Combat Armor first then see how it goes. If Combat Armor goes well, then we should be fine in the area of lightning because right now their lightning advantage stems from being able to annihilate our troops on the ground/boats regardless of whether the magitech survives or not. So if we protect our infantry, then we can focus on non-lightning-counter things for our revisions. It'd even help at sea since it's been stated that the reason they're winning at sea is because our soldiers manning the cannons on the Crystalclad are vulnerable to lightning.
I'm a bit of essentially completely countering lightning in a single revision. It shouldn't be that hard, but I'd be more comfortable during some precursor work in the design or another revision. Like the anti-lightning element of Combat Armor.
So something like Combat Armor + Blastball + Magegems could definitely work.
Post by: andrea on June 15, 2017, 03:53:57 am
( and now I am thinking of lightning powered power armor. The ability to store magic in the combat armor is something we can really build on in the future, especially after we get better magegems)
Ok, you convinced me, I will vote for the armor. I like it, and it works well with the planned revisions.
Quote
DESIGNS
2 - Combat Armor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485621#msg7485621): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
Plans?
1 - Fallacy's Plan: FallacyofUrist
Post by: Gwolfski on June 15, 2017, 06:18:29 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 15, 2017, 06:32:03 am
Also, here's an idea for a counter to their air:
Future Revision(/design?): Anti-Magic Mist
We modify a variant of our Obscuring Mist/Channeled Fog spell to include mass amounts of tiny anti-magic crystalline particles (of a variety fairly similar to our anti-magic bomb arrows and Equalizer) in the summoning procedure at the cost of a large portion of the actual mist.
The result is a lighter mist embedded with anti-magic. The anti-magic particles don't do anything individually, but all together they can effectively cancel out magic inside the mist. The Anti-Magic Mist will rise up into the air, above our forces, and won't affect anything on the ground. Its decreased density makes it very easy to see through and decreases its weight, allowing for it to not sit on the ground plaguing our forces.
When a Moskurg air unit, such as a carpet or airship, passes through the mist, the mist will cancel out the spells and enchantments used to make their carpets and ships fly. The Moskurg air unit will begin rapidly plummeting towards the ground/ocean. At some point they will leave the area of the influence of the mist as they come closer to the ground/ocean, but by then their downwards velocity will be too great to remedy and they'll be doomed to collision.
This project shouldn't be too difficult. As this revision is focused on just swapping out large amounts of mist for the anti-magic particles. That alone is enough to make a revision, though, and we can't do much else. But this should have wide-reaching consequences as our mages will be able to provide an Anti-Magic Mist cover protecting our forces from overhead aerial attack.
TL;DR: Anti-magic mist which cancels out magic inside the mist. Less dense so it rises up off the ground and doesn't impact visibility. Can be used to cover our forces as any Moskurg air unit inside will have their magic canceled out and will fall towards the ground. Because it rises, our forces stay out of its influence and thus aren't affected by its anti-magic.
@Gwolfski: Because the mountains are low-priority. Moskurg occasionally gets a foothold, yes, but getting a foothold is easier than advancing further. We don't really need the Mountains bonus anymore because of the Crystalworks. That, and a design that only helps in one theatre means every single other theatre will be left without a new design. So while we may make the Mountains harder to capture, Moskurg could get a design that helps them beat us in every other theatre.
Post by: helmacon on June 15, 2017, 08:23:18 am
Post by: evictedSaint on June 15, 2017, 11:51:31 am
Wands Race now has a discord! (https://discord.gg/wzakWFT)
To join, you need to post in the Deployment Zone with your preferred side.
Post by: Kadzar on June 15, 2017, 12:08:27 pm
Quote
DESIGNS
3 - Combat Armor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485621#msg7485621): Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Kadzar
Plans?
1 - Fallacy's Plan: FallacyofUrist
@Gwolfski: Because the mountains are low-priority. Moskurg occasionally gets a foothold, yes, but getting a foothold is easier than advancing further. We don't really need the Mountains bonus anymore because of the Crystalworks. That, and a design that only helps in one theatre means every single other theatre will be left without a new design. So while we may make the Mountains harder to capture, Moskurg could get a design that helps them beat us in every other theatre.I mean, I did originally have an idea for prefabricated crystal bunkers, so we could quickly set up shelters as needed, but I figured it wouldn't be able to protect our artillery crew unless it included armored turrets, which might be it's own thing, and the combat armor should hopefully do just as well.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 15, 2017, 02:34:57 pm
Because he's basically the only one making designs that get voted for nowadays.
Quote
DESIGNS
3 - Combat Armor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485621#msg7485621): Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Kadzar, FallacyofUrist
Plans?
0 - Fallacy's Plan:
That said, we must make some sort of improved shell using a revision, or we will stand no hope of defeating their navy. Either that or a sea-based forever frost tower, anyways.
Post by: RAM on June 15, 2017, 03:21:57 pm
Celestedemorte
A larger, stronger, more powerful frost tower that effects a pillar of air rather than a disk of air. This creates a massive version of the convection effect that we have been constantly observing around our firewalls and steam engines and fireballs and fire wasps and every single tiny little thing that we do with all this fire in cold climes. This creates a massive Massive MASSIVE wind force as untold millions of tonnes of air are compelled to move down as quickly as they are able, and with all their friends doing the same thing, that is very quickly indeed. This will, in short, rip their storm coulds out of the heavens, and all the pathetic insects shall plummet from the air with them. And, as fortune would have it, it seems that as the water grows colder, the number of storm clouds is reduced.
Enduring this insane force is no small feat. The worked-crystal tower's walls are ten centimetres thick and must be transported in great panels by rails and cavalry teams before being assembled by leaning them against each other and bound together with rapidly grown vines. A great copper pole, 5 centimetres in diameter and running along one corner of the pyramidal structure and sunk into the ground renders the tower and its surrounds immune to lightning as we have learned that lightning loves metal. Finally, there is a 1-centimetre thinck shell around the structure of summoned crystal, that can easily be renewed. Within, the traditional elements of the tower of forever frost have been combined with circuitry to create a massive multistorey circuit to better unify the magic, inhibiting magical seepage and wastage resulting in a much more efficient tower and magems are included to make its operation more consistent. Access is granted by a ladder through a hole in the centre of the crystal foundation slab and requires that a tunnel be duge which benefits from crystal supports.
Quote
DESIGNS[/quote]
0 - Exploding Shell (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565):
3 - Combat Armor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485621#msg7485621): Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Kadzar
0 - Black crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485660#msg7485660):
0 - Celestedemorte (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480940#msg7480940):
0 - (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.):
0 - (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.):
0 - (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.):
0 - (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.):
Revisions:
0 - Conjure Water (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565):
0 - Beachfront Frost Tower (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565):
0 - Energetic Transfusion (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485580#msg7485580):
0 - Anti-Magic Mist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485810#msg7485810):
0 - (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.):
0 - (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.):
0 - (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.):
0 - (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.):
Plans?
2 - Fallacy's Plan: FallacyofUrist, RAM
Thoughts:
Exploding shells seem to lack fluff. Some idea of the reasons why a fireball can be kept stable would be nice. But I am willing to support it at present. We need something and that is at least vaguely plausible. But it still comes down to "We have explosions, give us something that blows up" which ought to give us a penalty to the rolls.
Combat armour is expensive at least, and probably pretty much doesn't work. we already know that summoning antimagic charms is extremely difficult. We also know that antimagic charms do not interact with lightning. It is based upon the idea that crystals are already conductive enough to recieve lightning without damage, which does not seem to be the case, given that metal was more conductive, but it is unclear so that is not certain, but E.S. probably already decided one way or the other so that could be untenable but a good roll could find another way. Transparent crystal ought to be either impossible or a simple matter of cutting it, but given magic, it should be a revision, still an additional feature. Electrical-magical conversion is a design of its own.
Simply put, this mkes antimagic gems that convert mundane lightning into magic. That is a design. It also summons antimagic charms, another design, one which could easily fail. It also adds transparent crystals and crystal armour, two separate revisions. Finally, it grants us infantry armour when our infantry is irrelevant and rock armour when rocks are being destroyed all around us. If the lightning immunity effect fails then it is uselessm and the project seems far too ambitious to succeed to that extent. We need to actually destroy their airships which are sitting outside of our range. Or properly nullify their lightning rather than get aemour made of super-crystals that can only be fielded to one sildier in a hundred.
Black crystal is nice, but if we are doing a design for a different material, I would like some more properties than just being really resilient. We can already make resilient crystals by making them thicker... It is still good, of course, but just doesn't capture my imagination.
The Celestedemorte is a direct attack on their lightning clouds. Employs airflow to make use of our existing excess of cold towers(Cycling the air keeps new air around them which needs to be chilled...), Pulls their air forces out of stand-off, and creates wind conditions that destroy the ability to use carpets. A revision ought to get it into the water... I forget if the frost towers have a 100 kilometre radius or diameter, or maybe it increased since then? Regardless, consideering that it also had volume enough to kill off the jungle, 20 kilomters of altitude with phenomenal volume should be easy, and ought to suck their storm clouds into the ground before they can build up, and a nice lightning rod drains it all away harmlessly regardless. I cannot imagine it being a national effort, not with our current frost towers, and combined with our existing frost towers and the fact that it is a weather-pattern-scale convection effect it ought to be able to cover the whole battle-line. It is a very direct leveraging of magic upon natural forces and directly undercuts all of their advantages using very familiar elements. Easy, relevant, and powerful. This is realyl the only sane project.
Conjure water has been a long time in coming. It would be nice if permanent conjuration of water worked, for a logistical effect and basing it on our permanent crystals should be doable. But it would probably up the difficulty to unreliable levels. I am feeling greedy so I want permanent water... Really, water supplies are such a vulnerability, this would be so good. ?Ugh, I just wish that our permanent conjuration magic wasn't tied to a big dumb facility back at the home-front.
Beach-front frost towers are very good. They should make landings suicide as cannons do not play nice with troops marching on ice. Unfortunately, the enemy is flying... But the directional technology and mitigating effects on their weather are very nice and seem revision-level given our tower experience.
Energetic Transfusion is wonderful, but I think that it is a design. I do not trust it as a revision. It is my vote if it going to a design and clarifies that it is implmented on frost towers and crystal clads and has a mobile land-version.
Antimagic mist could be an ambitious design. Summoning antimagic gems is very difficult. Microscopic antimagic gems are again very difficult. Also, it is useless against fire pots and lightning, so... Not to mention that the greatest weakness of our fog spell is that, rather than being a nice big cloud at a random location as one would expect, it is a big wedge forming from our mage, acting as a great-big "shoot here" sign, and this, if anything, makes that even worse. Crystals are denser than air. Making them smaller does not stop them from being denser than air... You could maybe try imbuing them with mist-power but that is clearly a design of its own unless we get some sort of supporting design to make such revisions easier. Finally, using clouds against wind magic has already been proven to be stupid, antimagic has already been proven to fail against effects already in progress, unless they are our summoned items, which are special somehow... At best they can just avoid it and have to find some way to throw their ordnance, maybe some sort of twisted-rope device, or summoned weather patterns. The corrct way to do this is to revise the equaliser into an air-burst of floating seed-pods...
Post by: Andres on June 15, 2017, 03:25:59 pm
Lightning Resistance - The main feature of Combat Armor. Using techniques derived from our extensive experience with anti-magic (Equalizer, AM Charms, AM Bombs, etc.), we can turn most/all of the sudden energy from lightning strikes into magical energy. We already turn magic into other forms of energy (fireball, etc.), and have extensive experience with absorbing magic into fixed points, so this shouldn't be hard. The magic is dissipated via humming/glowing, and if that's not enough, there can be some slots for AAA Magegems on the armor (that can be drained/replaced) to hold any overflow.This is overambitious and a waste of an opportunity.
First of all, while we do have experience with anti-magic, we have no experience when it comes to turning electricity into magic energy, or turning any mundane force into magic, really. This will be difficult to do. As part of its own dedicated design, fine, but not as an addition to armour.
Secondly, is that this idea is throwing away one of two opportunities, both of which are better than what you have.
1. Instead of absorbing and dissipating magic, just make crystal insulate against it. It's a simple upgrade of our crystal as opposed to doing something completely new (turning mundane energy into magical energy), it's more likely to succeed, and the greater ease let's us do more with crystal.
1.1. Since electricity insulation is a simple thing rather than a complex thing, we can fit in another minor thing into the design: making the crystal tougher. The last revision has shown that our crystal is insufficiently durable to do the things we want it to do, so we end up having to use more of it than we should. A general durability upgrade will not only make our entire line of crystal materials stronger, it'll be very helpful for future engine/cannon designs.
1.1.1. To make it even easier to achieve this, maybe include something like "maintaining the crystal's sharpness is not a priority"?
2. You're taking the idea of turning mundane energy into magical energy and using it for armour. Not a bad idea, but there is so much more we can do with that. Many of our mages are stuck being used to power devices and this kind of technology would free many of them to do other things. We'd need to change the energy source from electricity to something else and increase the storage capacity of our magegems, but we could do a lot more with this technology than merely making lightning-resistant crystal.
Ultimately, for the sake of simplicity and continuing our crystal cannons/engines, as well as to make our infantry useful again, go for simple electricity insulation and a general durability upgrade rather than electricity-magic energy conversion.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 15, 2017, 03:28:35 pm
Quote
DESIGNSRAM, you forgot to include Fallacy's vote change from his plan to Combat Armor, so I just fixed that for you.
0 - Exploding Shell (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565):
4 - Combat Armor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485621#msg7485621): Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Kadzar, FallacyofUrist
0 - Black crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485660#msg7485660):
0 - Celestedemorte (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480940#msg7480940):
Revisions:
0 - Conjure Water (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565):
0 - Beachfront Frost Tower (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565):
0 - Energetic Transfusion (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485580#msg7485580):
0 - Anti-Magic Mist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485810#msg7485810):
Plans?
1 - Fallacy's Plan: RAM
Post by: helmacon on June 15, 2017, 04:03:07 pm
Plus, if we do energetic transfusion first, we could do the Crystal combat armor as a revision. It's just turning our existing Crystal armor into a full suit, and adding a transfusion array on the back.
So, my opinion is energetic transfusion for the design. One revision for the combat armor, and one revision for either exploding or flack shells.
Post by: Andres on June 15, 2017, 04:07:26 pm
The second modification is tougher crystal. We make further changes to Crystal's structure and change it to be less "perfect". It retains its hardness, but will no longer be as brittle. In fact, if this modification goes well, Crystal should be less brittle than the best steel.It would be wise to not limit the improvements strictly to brittleness. The fact that we still use metal at all means there is more to be done with the material than fixing its brittleness. It should not be "we try to make it less brittle", it should be "we try to improve the durability so that it's at least equal to steel in every way".
I'm also not sure why it's "less perfect".
Combat Armor should make Moskurg's lightning practically useless. The lightning will simply be dissipated by the armor, and as our magitech is now largely lightning-resistant, their lightning will no longer have the effect it used to have. Our crews can continue manning cannons to shoot down carpet riders and airships even as lightning hits them.This still makes mention of energy transmutation.
TL;DR: Crystal plate armor that uses a transparent-crystal faceplate, crystal, and a method to transfer lightning into magical energy based on anti-magic. Lighter, no more weak-spots for arrows and other lucky hits, better protection in general, self-repairing/easy-to-repair, and protects against lightning. See above lines for a bit more detailed description of benefits.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 15, 2017, 04:14:28 pm
And helmacon, as for energetic transfusion, my problem is that it seems a bit niche for a Design. Crystal Armor should fulfill the same role while also greatly increasing the combat effectiveness of our troops as well as improving crystal in general. Energetic Transfusion may lead to charging our stuff with lightning, but that would be relying on Moskurg casting lightning to charge our stuff.
Post by: RAM on June 15, 2017, 05:01:26 pm
Well, energetic transfusion was meant to be posted as a design.
Quote
DESIGNS
0 Exploding Shell (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565):
1 Energetic Transfusion (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485580#msg7485580): RAM
14Combat Armor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485621#msg7485621): Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Kadzar, FallacyofUrist
0 Black crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485660#msg7485660):
0 Celestedemorte (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480940#msg7480940):
Revisions:
1 Conjure Water (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565): RAM
1 Beachfront Frost Tower (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565): RAM
0 Anti-Magic Mist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485810#msg7485810):
Vote-blocks
0 Fallacy's Plan(ES,CW,BFT):
RAM, you forgot to include Fallacy's vote change from his plan to Combat Armor, so I just fixed that for you.Do people honestly fall for such blatant attacks on someone's character? You also "fixed" the empty slots, which, owing to their consistency, were completely harmless, and made adding new designs easier. Please do not 'help' so much in the future. If you actually want to help consider adding other people's designs to the list, it is difficult to do it properly on the same post as the design and... Actually, how about a rule that votes and designs can't share a post. The amount of hate generated by proposing that would be hilariously ironic. Anyway, people are rather impatient and are always foolish enough to vote for their own ideas so they always votebox right on their design post. Which is difficult to do right, so they just don't votebox. Which is really the better way to do it, but it leaves the votebox needing to be filled. Which should be the duty of the next person to vote. As a payment in order to have the right to vote it is very fair. And yet it so often doesn't happen. But anyway, given how much you hate clutter, I got rid of those messy dashes for you.
And I would just like to reiterate me request for people to vote for something other than an infantry design. Armour is basically useless. The lightning is destroying terrain, somehow... Maybe the mountains have explosive ore? We should look into that... Regardless, crystal armour will not stop the lightning from killing our troops, it will just make it less accurate, or actually more accuarate, given that the cannons are less common than the operators and thus killing a cannon with two shots is better than killing its crew with three. Anyway, even if this made our entire army immune to lightning(It won't, these are very specialised crystals, unless the design has changed completely? Oh, it has, let's just fix up the vote-box to reflect that it is no longer the same thing as it was when it was voted for... I assume that the designer will still be voting for it though...) They are still bombarding us from outside of our range and can still destroy our equipment. So it is still insufficient.
Post by: andrea on June 15, 2017, 05:06:21 pm
Quote
DESIGNS
0 Exploding Shell (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565):
1 Energetic Transfusion (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485580#msg7485580): RAM
14Combat Armor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485621#msg7485621): Chiefwaffles, Andrea,Kadzar, FallacyofUrist
0 Black crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485660#msg7485660):
0 Celestedemorte (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480940#msg7480940):
Revisions:
1 Conjure Water (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565): RAM
1 Beachfront Frost Tower (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565): RAM
0 Anti-Magic Mist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485810#msg7485810):
Vote-blocks
0 Fallacy's Plan(ES,CW,BFT):
Also, what blatant attacks on somebody's character? he merely pointed out that you used an older quotebox? it is a thing that happens.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 15, 2017, 05:08:35 pm
Can you please be less hostile, RAM?
Quote
DESIGNS
0 - Exploding Shell (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565):
1 - Energetic Transfusion (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485580#msg7485580): RAM
4 - Combat Armor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485621#msg7485621): Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Kadzar, FallacyofUrist
0 - Black crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485660#msg7485660):
0 - Celestedemorte (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480940#msg7480940):
Revisions:
1 - Conjure Water (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565): RAM
1 - Beachfront Frost Tower (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565): RAM
0 - Anti-Magic Mist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485810#msg7485810):
Vote-blocks
0 - Fallacy's Plan(ES,CW,BFT):
Also what Andrea said.
And Combat Armor fulfills the same role as it did. If people don't want me modifying my designs after the fact, then they can tell me that. But I have yet to had a single person (without a personal vendetta against me) tell me otherwise.
Post by: helmacon on June 15, 2017, 05:12:40 pm
That's it's immediate benefit, yes. But it is not the main purpose. The main purpose is a stepping stone into magical energy generation from mundane means. An alternate route to the "Meteoric Generator". It would lead to a cost reduction in mage gems, and most importantly, it acts as a medium between natural forces and magical forces. Since our whole gig is mageitech, a better melding of regular machinery and magical energy has any number of applications. The whole lightning rod thing is just what makes it worthwhile to delve into this line of research.
And helmacon, as for energetic transfusion, my problem is that it seems a bit niche for a Design. Crystal Armor should fulfill the same role while also greatly increasing the combat effectiveness of our troops as well as improving crystal in general. Energetic Transfusion may lead to charging our stuff with lightning, but that would be relying on Moskurg casting lightning to charge our stuff.
Anyways:
Spoiler: Energetic transfusion ReWrite (click to show/hide)
The combat armor seems cool, but i think it is wildly ambitious to try to get ETAs , transparent crystal, and an armor revision all in one design. We design ETA first, then revise it into an armor suit. ETAs would also allow us to charge up and turbo our attacks during storms, if they ever try to counter our frost towers. It's a hard counter to lightning, and a preemptive soft counter to their counter, as well as a step into extremely useful energy tech.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 15, 2017, 05:23:41 pm
Each part is individually really easy - the crystal modifications are done with decades of experience and the Crystalworks. The nature of the Crystalworks should allow us to easily change the structure of the crystal, and our extensive experience with Crystal facilitates that.
The material swap is the easiest. It's just replacing the steel with crystal, and generally material swaps aren't hard at all.
As for just ETA in general, I think it'd be better in a design to just make something that generates magical energy independently without relying on Moskurg. Sure, the ETA can be extended to not rely on lightning, but at the cost of a design I think it's just better to make something that doesn't rely on the enemy using spells that they'll know powers our stuff.
Post by: RAM on June 15, 2017, 05:49:47 pm
, what blatant attacks on somebody's character? he merely pointed out that you used an older quotebox? it is a thing that happens.It looks for all the world like an extremely insideous approach whereby someone implies that someone else keeps failing and present yourself as being helpful. IT is a systematic effort to marginalise someone and essentially cause them to be socially deleted. I would prefer it if the thread focused upon ideas rather than the people presenting them. However there is a consistent trend of ideas that I see as being very successful in voting and very ineffectual in outcome, so I vehemetly oppose them, with publically stated reason that people can argue against. These ideas tend to come from Chiefwaffles, who has stated that I am personalyl attacking them. I am not, I am making rational arguments against leading proposals. I am also, sadly, forced to point out the argument tactics that are used against me becaue they are exteremely insideous so ignoring them is not a practical option. Sadly, it is even possible to use them without noticingm so it isn't even as though anyone is necessarily seeking to harm anyone here.
As for ideas. I just remembered a big problem with the new armour design. It goes from conductive armour to nonconductive armour. It sonds good, but in practie, a human with two thin nonconductive layers is usually more conductive than the air. So nonconductive armour is probably more dangerous than the current metal armour. Lighnting doesn't hit things and ounce, it goes through things and causes damage on the way. Protection relies upon making it go somewhere else. Resistant armour doesn't do that unless the occupant is in an air-tight(well, electrically-tight, actually) enclosure with significantly greater resistance along its most conductive path than the surrounding air has, and air is actually quite resistant. In short, the new version of the armour does not actually protect against real lightning. But this is fantasy lightning, so I guess it will work regardless.
Post by: Andres on June 15, 2017, 06:00:27 pm
Quote
DESIGNS
0 - Exploding Shell (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565):
1 - Energetic Transfusion (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485580#msg7485580): RAM
5 - Combat Armor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485621#msg7485621): Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Kadzar, FallacyofUrist, Andres
0 - Black crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485660#msg7485660):
0 - Celestedemorte (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480940#msg7480940):
Revisions:
1 - Conjure Water (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565): RAM
1 - Beachfront Frost Tower (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565): RAM
0 - Anti-Magic Mist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485810#msg7485810):
1 - No revisions until after the Design phase: Andres
Vote-blocks
0 - Fallacy's Plan(ES,CW,BFT):
As for ideas. I just remembered a big problem with the new armour design. It goes from conductive armour to nonconductive armour. It sonds good, but in practie, a human with two thin nonconductive layers is usually more conductive than the air. So nonconductive armour is probably more dangerous than the current metal armour. Lighnting doesn't hit things and ounce, it goes through things and causes damage on the way. Protection relies upon making it go somewhere else. Resistant armour doesn't do that unless the occupant is in an air-tight(well, electrically-tight, actually) enclosure with significantly greater resistance along its most conductive path than the surrounding air has, and air is actually quite resistant. In short, the new version of the armour does not actually protect against real lightning. But this is fantasy lightning, so I guess it will work regardless.((I can't say whether this would normally be correct or incorrect since I'm not that great at physics, but what I do know for sure is that your science does not apply.))
Arstotzkan soldiers are braver and do not scream when lightning strikes - likely because they are instantaneously cooked inside their welded-shut armor coffins. Their fellow soldiers get incredibly upset by this, bemoaning about 'realism' and 'faraday cages'. Moskurgs just laugh in their filthy gutter language, and our men vow revenge against those who would so blatantly flout reality.((By making our crystal armour non-conductive, lightning will bounce off them or not hit them at all. That's science as far as Wands Race goes. Magic is like that.))
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 15, 2017, 06:11:32 pm
And dear god, guys, be nice to each other.
Post by: helmacon on June 15, 2017, 06:37:37 pm
Reminder that Andres has my vote for this turn. Just for the Design.I'm willing to cut a deal with you bird people.
If the steam rifle wins with a vote from either RAM, Kadzar, or Voidslayer, (or Andres if he switches back) then said person can direct my vote next design phase, either for bird cavalry, or whatever else you think is needed (Barring frost towers)
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Andres on June 15, 2017, 06:46:24 pm
Any chance I can hold off on calling in that vote for another time. It's kind of got a huge lead at the moment.Reminder that Andres has my vote for this turn. Just for the Design.I'm willing to cut a deal with you bird people.
If the steam rifle wins with a vote from either RAM, Kadzar, or Voidslayer, (or Andres if he switches back) then said person can direct my vote next design phase, either for bird cavalry, or whatever else you think is needed (Barring frost towers)
Glory to Arstotzka.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: helmacon on June 15, 2017, 07:13:23 pm
No, sorry. The terms of the deal were for the next design. You knew this was a possibility when you took the deal. No refunds. I am not responsible for buyer's remorse.Any chance I can hold off on calling in that vote for another time. It's kind of got a huge lead at the moment.Reminder that Andres has my vote for this turn. Just for the Design.I'm willing to cut a deal with you bird people.
If the steam rifle wins with a vote from either RAM, Kadzar, or Voidslayer, (or Andres if he switches back) then said person can direct my vote next design phase, either for bird cavalry, or whatever else you think is needed (Barring frost towers)
Glory to Arstotzka.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Andres on June 15, 2017, 07:16:27 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 15, 2017, 07:57:23 pm
Post by: Andres on June 15, 2017, 08:10:35 pm
Post by: helmacon on June 15, 2017, 08:17:27 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 15, 2017, 08:18:30 pm
Wands Race now has a discord! (https://discord.gg/wzakWFT)
To join, you need to post in the Deployment Zone with your preferred side.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 15, 2017, 08:24:01 pm
Post by: RAM on June 15, 2017, 08:39:18 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 15, 2017, 09:18:25 pm
- The Steam Engine started as a (useless) design (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7431692#msg7431692). It was useless and was a National Effort. (2-2, 1-2+1, 6-2)
- Then we revised it (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7432137#msg7432137) to uhh... We made it smaller and lighter to the point where it could technically be put on a ship. It's still a NE at this point and is still extremely useless. (4)
- Then we spent a design (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7433278#msg7433278) to improve it. This brought it down to Very Expensive. It's technically "useful", but is outclassed by any other method of propulsion, requires constant extensive maintenance, is still extremely heavy and big, and isn't powerful at all. (3, 3, 4)
- Then we revised in turbines (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7433454#msg7433454), increasing power. Still requires constant maintenance due to salt water, its ropes (a rope belt drives the paddle) involved in its operations can still slip off and break, and a boat powered by it is no longer slow, but is still beat by a rower-powered boat. (4)
- Then we revise the Magical Condensor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7445964#msg7445964), which is an improved cooling system for the HC1-E and steam engine. In addition to introducing Gold Circuits, this improves the reliability + power (and to a very lesser degree, weight) of the steam engine to the point where the Fog-O-War could reliably outpace Moskurg boats. The engine is still Very Expensive. (5+1)
- Then finally, we revise nickel circuits (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7467166#msg7467166). It isn't explicitly stated here, but after this revision the steam engine becomes Expensive. (5)
So it would look like we did not use our Metal bonus at any point on the steam engine. So therefore making the engine out of crystal should make it Cheap.
And the Steam Engine's blurb in our equipment is pretty outdated in general.
Quote
Steam Engine: A highly expensive and enormously heavy steam engine. Uses a steam turbine to generate power. Uses PSF's and a steam recycler with enchanted gold etchings to manage heat. Expensive.It should be using Nickel Circuits and should be (mostly) made of Crystal (which should notably reduce its weight).
Post by: evictedSaint on June 15, 2017, 10:09:38 pm
GM, how come our steam engine isn't cheap? It's made out of crystal now so it should be made cheaper by the Crystalworks. By extension, our Crystalclad and STV-1 should be Cheap and Expensive, respectively.
Its larger than most crystal things youre making, especially with the thicker walls and delicate turbines and circuitry. Cost wasn't limited by steel, which you have plenty of. Being made of crystal has made it lighter, though. It's Expensive, and so is everything else on the crystalclad. The Restless is also made of a fuck-ton of crystal, which takes a long time to print in the crystalworks.
Most notable is that the steam engine could be used by mundane soldiers, though you've not done so.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 15, 2017, 10:12:42 pm
Post by: Andres on June 15, 2017, 10:25:00 pm
So would revising the crystalworks to be cheaper mean that things which use "fuck tons" of crystal also benefit from being one expense level cheaper?GM, how come our steam engine isn't cheap? It's made out of crystal now so it should be made cheaper by the Crystalworks. By extension, our Crystalclad and STV-1 should be Cheap and Expensive, respectively.
Its larger than most crystal things youre making, especially with the thicker walls and delicate turbines and circuitry. Cost wasn't limited by steel, which you have plenty of. Being made of crystal has made it lighter, though. It's Expensive, and so is everything else on the crystalclad. The Restless is also made of a fuck-ton of crystal, which takes a long time to print in the crystalworks.
Most notable is that the steam engine could be used by mundane soldiers, though you've not done so.
Actually, fuck that. I'm not sure why I was so hard on the steam engine. Youve had it for a long time and made a lot of improvements. The next time you design something that uses it you can upgrade the engine for free, too.Thanks.
Post by: RAM on June 15, 2017, 10:41:19 pm
Quote
Revisions:
1 - Conjure Water (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565): RAM
1 - Beachfront Frost Tower (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565): RAM
0 - Anti-Magic Mist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485810#msg7485810):
1 - No revisions until after the Design phase: Andres
0 - Do not use the revision credit this turn:
Post by: evictedSaint on June 15, 2017, 10:47:23 pm
Our armor is upgraded from steel plate to crystal plate.
Essentially the same design, our armor is now made entirely out of crystal rather than steel. This results in a modest reduction in weight and a small increase in bulkiness, but the crystal should now be immune to most forms of attack. A square ballista bolt will still punch through, but Moskurgs bodkin arrows should be useless now.
Most useful from this design is a new type of crystal - informally referred to as "Crystal Glass". Transparent and slightly blue-tinged, this crystal retains all the normal properties of our regular crystal while being see-through. Our helmets use this material extensively; it can be merged directly with normal crystal, meaning there's no seam. The helmets now look like buckets with one side completely cut out and replaced with glass. The sealed design makes breathing difficult, however, so we've added a few holes hidden behind little folds of crystal to allow air to more easily enter and exit the helm. We've also bulked up the armor around the neck to discourage lucky arrow strikes, and filled up a few gaps. The biggest concern now is enemy infantry and their hooked halberds, which can still drag our men down.
We attempt to change the properties of the crystal to be more resistant to lightning, but we have a lot of trouble changing the structure of the crystal to disallow lightning to pass through it. Maybe with more time we could figure out a better way to dissuade lightning from blasting our crystal equipment, but we just ran out. Cheap.
Post by: Andres on June 15, 2017, 10:52:12 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 15, 2017, 10:56:26 pm
So.
Revision: Lightning Rods
Lightning rods are cheap crystal spires connected to a specially-designed Magegem.
When lightning hits the Lightning Rod, electricity flows through the conductive crystal to the Magegem, where the electricity is "used up" exciting the Magegem and turning into magical energy. The amounts of energy harnessed are far too little to be used for anything, but this method allows for the electricity to be neutralized without a grounding element. We don't need a large Magegem to use because of this.
As a lighting rod is small and made using machine Crystal, it should be extremely easy to manufacture and distribute. It can be secured to our vehicles and the ground while being fairly portable. It can be connected to the ends of our ships, near our artillery emplacements, carried with our troops, and more. If time allows, a scaled-down version (with literally just the crystalwork formula for the rod tweaked for a minute) can be made to attach to Combat Armor.
With a nearby Lightning Rod, Moskurger lightning will strike it instead of its intended target, protecting our forces from harm.
Revision: Blastball
Magic is, of course, a science. Things can be tweaked and adjusted with ease. But some things come easier than others.
Like the Fireball.
We've had the Fireball since the very beginning. We've experimented with it, and utilized it to its fullest potential. The Fireball forms the basis of nearly all Arstotzkan technology and society today.
We have experience with the Fireball. Our Mathemagicians know it inside and out; they know every detail of it and how exactly we utilize magic to create the various types of Fireballs.
We can utilize our extensive knowledge with the Fireball to make some simple changes to it. Today, the Fireball isn't as relevant as it once was. Moskurg's armor threatens to make fire practically obsolete, and our new methods of projectile propulsion require a new type of Fireball.
Enter the Blastball. It's merely a variant of our Fireball, but with the extreme majority of its magical energy going towards pressure and a general "explosion" instead of simply heat. This has multiple uses - when a large-enough Blastball is detonated in an uncontrolled explosion, it'll do much better against Moskurg's armor than anything that came before. When detonated in a controlled environment, it creates muuuch more pressure than ever before, making Blastball-propelled bullets extraordinarily fast, with great piercing capabilities, muzzle velocity, and range.
The Blastball is very easy to do. We've already done this exact kind of tweak with the Flare. We've adjusted properties of the fireball at the costs of others. With the flare, we raised brightness and added colors at the cost of heat and destruction. With the Blastball, we're greatly raising pressure at the cost of most of the Fireball's heat.
The Blastball is a variant of the Fireball, and the goal by the end of the year is to have a Blastball variant for each Fireball type - SPSF, PSF, and the SF. The SPSF Blastball variant is the most critical one, followed by the PSF and SF. The Blastball should immediately replace the Fireball in the AS-R1 rifle and, if time allows, the AS-HAC-1 should have some modifications made to accept use Blastball-propulsion instead of steam-propulsion. Outside of weaponry, the Blastball will be used against armored Moskurger targets.
TL;DR: Revise the Fireball to use mostly pressure instead of heat. SPSF Blastball variant is the most important, with the PSF and SF variants being the second most and least important respectively (but preferably all are done via this revision). The Blastball should be effective against Moskurg armor, and extremely effective as a magical propellant for bullets/shells whatnot. The AS-R1 immediately benefits from this, with a greatly increased muzzle velocity increasing stopping power and range by potentially huge amounts.
With our extreme amounts of experience with Fireballs and the tweaking thereof, this revision should be easier than normal.
EDIT: Added thing to Blastball comparing it to Flares.
Quote
Revisions:I'm not set on this, but at this moment it seems like the best course of action. The Lightning Rod I'm not in love with, and if anyone comes up with a better way to counter their lightning/air advantage I'm game.
1 - Conjure Water (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565): RAM
1 - Beachfront Frost Tower (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565): RAM
0 - Anti-Magic Mist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485810#msg7485810):
1 - Blastball (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486584#msg7486584): Chiefwaffles
1 - Lightning Rod (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486584#msg7486584): Chiefwaffles
Also, people should be on the discord for discussion!
Post by: helmacon on June 15, 2017, 11:20:12 pm
Quote
Revisions:
1 - Conjure Water (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565): RAM
1 - Beachfront Frost Tower (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565): RAM
0 - Anti-Magic Mist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485810#msg7485810):
2 - Blastball (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486584#msg7486584): Chiefwaffles, helmacon
1 - Lightning Rod (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486584#msg7486584): Chiefwaffles
1 - ETA: helmacon
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 15, 2017, 11:41:21 pm
The lightning rod focuses on just nullifying their lightning, which is what we need right now. The stuff about turning the electricity into magical energy isn't at the same scale or purpose of the ETA; it's just a way around the requirement to ground the lightning rod. It's so we can fit it on Combat Armor or Crystalclads and not just the ground. Lightning Rods focuses on countering lightning, and ETA focuses on charging Magegems from lightning. That and Lightning Rods do still serve as a stepping stone to turning other forms of energy into magic.
Post by: Andres on June 15, 2017, 11:50:48 pm
We need this if we want to continue making crystal guns and engines, plus it may give our ships the edge they need to not get beaten as badly as they are.
Quote
Revisions:
1 - Conjure Water (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565): RAM
1 - Beachfront Frost Tower (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565): RAM
0 - Anti-Magic Mist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485810#msg7485810):
2 - Blastball (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486584#msg7486584): Chiefwaffles, helmacon
1 - Lightning Rod (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486584#msg7486584): Chiefwaffles
1 - ETA: helmacon
1 - Crystal Durability (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486611#msg7486611): Andres
Revision: Lightning RodsAnything that turns mundane energy into magic energy is a design. Furthermore, we have no lightning rods are not something we have, so we cannot use a Revision on it. What are we revising? Nothing. Revisions are for revising things we've already made.
Lightning rods are cheap crystal spires using a telescopic design connected to a specially-designed Magegem.
When lightning hits the Lightning Rod, electricity flows through the conductive crystal to the Magegem, where the electricity is "used up" exciting the Magegem and turning into magical energy. The amounts of energy harnessed are far too little to be used for anything, but this method allows for the electricity to be neutralized without a grounding element. We don't need a large Magegem to use because of this.
As a lighting rod is small and made using machine Crystal, it should be extremely easy to manufacture and distribute. It can be connected to the ends of our ships, near our artillery emplacements, carried with our troops, and more. If time allows, a scaled-down version (with literally just the crystalwork formula for the rod tweaked for a minute) can be made to attach to Combat Armor.
Revision: Blastball1. Change the name to Pressure Blast.
Magic is, of course, a science. Things can be tweaked and adjusted with ease. But some things come easier than others.
Like the Fireball.
We've had the Fireball since the very beginning. We've experimented with it, and utilized it to its fullest potential. The Fireball forms the basis of nearly all Arstotzkan technology and society today.
We have experience with the Fireball. Our Mathemagicians know it inside and out; they know every detail of it and how exactly we utilize magic to create the various types of Fireballs.
We can utilize our extensive knowledge with the Fireball to make some simple changes to it. Today, the Fireball isn't as relevant as it once was. Moskurg's armor threatens to make fire practically obsolete, and our new methods of projectile propulsion require a new type of Fireball.
Enter the Blastball. It's merely a variant of our Fireball, but with the extreme majority of its magical energy going towards pressure and a general "explosion" instead of simply heat. This has multiple uses - when a large-enough Blastball is detonated in an uncontrolled explosion, it'll do much better against Moskurg's armor than anything that came before. When detonated in a controlled environment, it creates muuuch more pressure than ever before, making Blastball-propelled bullets extraordinarily fast, with great piercing capabilities, muzzle velocity, and range.
The Blastball is a variant of the Fireball, and the goal by the end of the year is to have a Blastball variant for each Fireball type - SPSF, PSF, and the SF. The SPSF Blastball variant is the most critical one, followed by the PSF and SF. The Blastball should immediately replace the Fireball in the AS-R1 rifle and, if time allows, the AS-HAC-1 should have some modifications made to accept use Blastball-propulsion instead of steam-propulsion. Outside of weaponry, the Blastball will be used against armored Moskurger targets.
TL;DR: Revise the Fireball to use mostly pressure instead of heat. SPSF Blastball variant is the most important, with the PSF and SF variants being the second most and least important respectively (but preferably all are done via this revision). The Blastball should be effective against Moskurg armor, and extremely effective as a magical propellant for bullets/shells whatnot. The AS-R1 immediately benefits from this, with a greatly increased muzzle velocity increasing stopping power and range by potentially huge amounts.
With our extreme amounts of experience with Fireballs and the tweaking thereof, this revision should be easier than normal.
2. Make mention of Flare, how we lowered the heat it generated to raise the light it generated. This would be a similar "tweaking of the sliders".
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 15, 2017, 11:53:34 pm
Post by: RAM on June 16, 2017, 12:27:09 am
Mathemagics started with crystals, and our extensive experience has divined almost every aspect of it, allowing us to tweak the design in extremely precise and exacting ways...
Tweaking the summoning effect to expel the existing material rather than overlap it removes ambient contamination from the material. By refining the formulae, we have distilled the crystal to its most pure form. The theory is that the crystals themselves are immune to lightning, and the lighting was passing through by exploiting the impurities. This new crystal has no impurities, and, upon extremely lose scrutiny, actually produces a brief, barely-perceptable suction effect when it is broken. We have dubbed this the "Suck-Force" which ascribes the behaviour of material to be attracted to absences.
It is further hoped that the lack of impurities might slightly increase the regeneration rates and significantly reduce weight...
Distribution priorits is to wizard armour, engines and then their crews' armour, cannons and then their crews' armour, infantry armour then vehicles and whatever is left.
It is several layers of failure that have made us reliant upon crystals to resist lightning, but after sinking so much into these costs we may as well make good on them...
Furthest Forever Frost(F.F.F.)
It has become apparent that cold air moves down. We thus modify the redundant portion of our towers of forever frost to reach the kegger storm clouds. It is a simple matter of just adjusting the shape of their effect.
Antimagic Bomb Concussive(A.B.C.)
The antimagic bomb already has all we need to destroy carpets, and hopefully dispel skyships. This bullet for our largest cannons is packaged with an antimagic charm to suppress it. The charm is then placed into a slot next to the chamber until the bullet is fired. This massive antimagic bomb then flies into the kegger air ranks and explodes from the ambient spellcraft, shattering into a cloud of burning antimagic charms.
Lead Overlayed Crystal Ordnance(L.O.C.O.)
By Summoning crystals so that they overlay a lump of lead, We gain a crystal that is filled with the heavy metal. These lead-filled crystals are as heavy as lead and as hard as crystal, resulting in much greater penetration effects. Furthermore, we only place a pillar of lead at the core, while a whole shell is summoned. Thus resulting in an overall lighter, thus faster shell, but the outer area of crystals shatter where the lead-portion penetrates, resulting in a much greater penetrating power and slightliy increased range.
Big Dummies
We know that the enemy lighting always hits our metal armour if it can. So we just build big, easy-to-hit suits of fused armour and lug them around on carts, use them as figurheads on ships, place them to guard our cannons and frost towers...
Post by: RAM on June 16, 2017, 12:31:48 am
Quote
Revisions:Ehh, stuff it, I want frost towers that float, not beach babies.
1 - Conjure Water (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565): RAM
1 - Beachfront Frost Tower (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565):
0 - Anti-Magic Mist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485810#msg7485810):
2 - Blastball (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486584#msg7486584): Chiefwaffles, helmacon
1 - Lightning Rod (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486584#msg7486584): Chiefwaffles
1 - ETA (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485580#msg7485580): helmacon, RAM
1 - Crystal Durability (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486611#msg7486611): Andres
0 - Creepy Crawly Crystals (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Furthest Forever Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Antimagic Bomb Concussive (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Lead Overlayed Crystal Ordnance (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Big Dummies (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.):
0 Save the revision credit for later use:
0 I want to see the results of the most popular revision before confirming the second revision:
And seriously. E.T.A. and lightning rod are identical. If we want a lightning rod then we need to build one that works, which we can revise from our metal armour, it seemed effective enough.
... making the design...
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 16, 2017, 12:56:16 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 16, 2017, 01:12:35 am
Energetic Transfusion
We have been working with magic for a very long time now. Thanks to our MathMagicians, we have come to understand what we have been doing exceptionally well. To put it simply, we take magical elements, sometimes called mana, and turn it into different kinds of natural elements, such as fire, or crystal. Theoretically, it should be fairly simple to invert the process.
Our first attempt, the Energetic Transfusion Array (henceforth abbreviated ETA) is primarily designed to work with lightning, as electrical energy is the most similar to magical energy. Both are rather nebulous concepts on their own, but more importantly, they can both be funneled down through and controlled by our circuits.
The ETA uses a small, thin strip of metal as a lightning rod to gather the electrical energy. The energy is forced down through an inverted summoning circuit, and dumped into a series of connected mage gems. This should collect the electrical energy, convert it, and store it safely away in the gems.
The first generation of ETAs are designed to be attached to our vehicles. They can be mounted anywhere on a crystal clad, set up on the tops of frost towers, or even ride between cars on the crystal trains.
The conversion process may not be 100% efficient, but our primary focus on the design is to create a working prototype, with less concern on size or efficiency.
Let's compare ETA and Lightning Rods. I've color-coded the comparisons so people don't have to go hunting for the comparisons themselves.
Revision: Lightning Rods
Lightning rods are cheap crystal spires connected to a modified AAA Magegem.
When lightning hits the Lightning Rod, electricity flows through the conductive crystal to the Magegem, where the electricity is "used up" exciting the Magegem and turning into magical energy. The amounts of energy harnessed are far too little to be used for anything, but this method allows for the electricity to be neutralized without a grounding element. We don't need a large Magegem to use because of this.
As a lighting rod is small and made using machine Crystal, it should be extremely easy to manufacture and distribute. It can be secured to our vehicles and the ground while being fairly portable. Its size can It can be connected to the ends of our ships, near our artillery emplacements, carried with our troops, and more. If time allows, a scaled-down version (with literally just the crystalwork formula for the rod tweaked for a minute) can be made to attach to Combat Armor.
With a nearby Lightning Rod, Moskurger lightning will strike it instead of its intended target, protecting our forces from harm.
RED - ETA uses a series of connected Magegems with the intention to hold a notable charge. Lightning Rods just use a cheap AAA Magegem. This makes ETA more expensive.
GREEN - ETA wants to charge Magegems via lightning and protect our soldiers while Lightning Rods is just intended to protect our soldiers. This makes ETA more ambitious. (That and it's wasting the ambition so we rely on the enemy to recharge our stuff.)
BLUE - ETA can only be attached to vehicles. Lightning Rods can be put on the ground and vehicles. This is likely fairly minor, but This makes ETA harder to deploy.
PURPLE - ETA intends to just make a "working prototype" without concern for size or efficiency. This means ETA is unlikely to help us next turn and we will likely continue hemorrhaging territory.
@Andres & Lightning Rods: It may not be an explicit revision of an existing design, but it's still a revision. Lightning Rods is revising an AAA Magegem + Crystal into the Lightning Rod. Crystal is effortless to shape, so the real revision is the AAA Magegem.
And I've made the modifications to Blastball. Except the name. You can't take Blastball away from me.
Post by: RAM on June 16, 2017, 01:38:40 am
You can't take Blastball away from me.Do you realise that if we make a gun powered by those, it would be a BBgun?
As to E.T.A. versus L.R., they both channel energy into gems. This feels like design-level ambition to me and the magnitude of the effect seems to be of very little difference. Lightning bolts are mentioned as being absurdly powerful, at least similar to Fireballs, which is more than an AAA gem can handle. It is, in all likelihood, going to explode. If it was fed into a charm and converted to sound then it might be able to handle the strain, but as it stands, you are asking for the gem-charging ability, which feels like a design to me but could be a revision. You are also asking for the lightning conversion ability, which, again, feels like a design but would at least be a revision of its own. Both E.T.A. and L.R. seem far too ambitious to work for this reason. These are, to my mind, high-end traits and the magnitude in both cases is to absorb lightning, so I see no difference in ambition on that front.
If we count cannons as vehicles then they both do good enough. If we don't, then yes, the L.R. has an advantage there, but really, these are already ambitious designs, limiting its mobility seems like a good way to avoid hemmoraging penalties while making it functional. We only really desperately need these on the boats for now, and the trains are not useless. It really isn't satisfactory, but at least it is plausible.
Losing territory is pretty much guaranteed at this point. We have had two dud designs in a row. The lightning rod tends to fail into a lightning rod that is prone to exploding and an attempt at magical recharging that completely fails and we get nothing. The Energetic transfusion is likely to fail into a worthless lump of metal that attracts a lightning bolt once in a blue moon and can only be mounted to a handful of ships, but has a remote chance of granting progress towards a magical collection device based upon natural phenomena. I would rather fail into a chance of magical research than to fail into a partial protection.
Post by: andrea on June 16, 2017, 02:06:31 am
Also, I think revisions are voted one at a time, so we will get to see the results of the first one.
Quote
Revisions:
1 - Conjure Water (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565): RAM
1 - Beachfront Frost Tower (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565):
0 - Anti-Magic Mist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485810#msg7485810):
2 - Blastball (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486584#msg7486584): Chiefwaffles, helmacon
1 - Lightning Rod (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486584#msg7486584): Chiefwaffles
1 - ETA (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485580#msg7485580): helmacon, RAM
1 - Crystal Durability (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486611#msg7486611): Andres
0 - Creepy Crawly Crystals (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Furthest Forever Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Antimagic Bomb Concussive (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Lead Overlayed Crystal Ordnance (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Big Dummies (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.):
0 Save the revision credit for later use:
0 I want to see the results of the most popular revision before confirming the second revision:
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 16, 2017, 03:05:57 am
We build upon our efforts to create insulating crystal from the Combat Armor project. With this foundation, insulated crystal shall be an easy task.
The structure of crystal is changed to no longer facilitate electricity flowing through it. We already have plenty of experience tweaking crystal to achieve particular ends, and this is no different. The Crystalworks allows us unprecedented control of the properties of crystal, and things such as Crystal Glass only prove this. While we may have had not enough time to finish insulating crystal as a part of Combat Armor, we can use the work done there to gain a head-start here.
Insulating Crystal is to be primarily used in layers. In instances such as Combat Armor, our Crystalworks shall create the insides of the Combat Armor out of insulating Crystal while ensuring a path from the head to the ground in conducting crystal. As a result, the occupant is virtually entirely protected by lightning and other similar environmental hazards, and the electricity harmlessly flows to the ground.
This layered approach can be used for practically any design, with Combat Armor being the highest priority. With this revision, we aim on equipping as many designs as possible with the new crystal variant.
TL;DR: Use our experience from the failed attempt in Combat Armor to make insulating crystal. This should be easy given we already gave it some effort as a part of Combat Armor. Should typically be incorporated in designs via layering conducting crystal on the outside, giving a path to the ground, with insulating crystal protecting the occupant/design/tech/whatever. Should be applied to Combat Armor and preferably everything else.
Also, yeah, let's just do one revision at a time. I'm not including this one yet, but I'll push for it after this current revision goes through. For now, I'm just removing my vote from Lightning Rod.
Quote
Revisions:
1 - Conjure Water (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565): RAM
1 - Beachfront Frost Tower (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565):
0 - Anti-Magic Mist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485810#msg7485810):
2 - Blastball (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486584#msg7486584): Chiefwaffles, helmacon
2 - ETA (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485580#msg7485580): helmacon, RAM
1 - Crystal Durability (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486611#msg7486611): Andres
0 - Creepy Crawly Crystals (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Furthest Forever Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Antimagic Bomb Concussive (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Lead Overlayed Crystal Ordnance (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Big Dummies (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.):
0 Save the revision credit for later use:
0 I want to see the results of the most popular revision before confirming the second revision:
Post by: andrea on June 16, 2017, 03:28:21 am
Quote
Revisions:
1 - Conjure Water (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565): RAM
1 - Beachfront Frost Tower (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565):
0 - Anti-Magic Mist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485810#msg7485810):
3 - Blastball (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486584#msg7486584): Chiefwaffles, helmacon, Andrea
2 - ETA (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485580#msg7485580): helmacon, RAM
1 - Crystal Durability (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486611#msg7486611): Andres
0 - Creepy Crawly Crystals (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Furthest Forever Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Antimagic Bomb Concussive (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Lead Overlayed Crystal Ordnance (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Big Dummies (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.):
0 Save the revision credit for later use:
0 I want to see the results of the most popular revision before confirming the second revision:
edit: Blastball will not only allow the rifle to work and possible upgrades to our cannons, but will also be more effective at dealing with their anti-heat armor, both on soldiers and on ships. While fireball would lose much of its effectiveness against anti-heat armor, blastball can still deliver quite a punch.
It really open the way to many things. (including the IDE)
For anti lightning, Chiefwaffles proposal of layered insulating/conductive crystal is effective and has the benefit of being easy. Energy conversion, on a revision, seems the kind of stuff that will not be able to do even on a 6. modifying the crystal a bit is revision tier, devising entirely new mechanisms seems to me far more ambitious, and I prefer to go with simple. Our troops need lightning protection now.
Post by: RAM on June 16, 2017, 05:46:13 am
Quote
Revisions:
1 - Conjure Water (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565): RAM
0 - Beachfront Frost Tower (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565):
0 - Anti-Magic Mist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485810#msg7485810):
3 - Blastball (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486584#msg7486584): Chiefwaffles, helmacon, Andrea
1 - ETA (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485580#msg7485580): helmacon
1 - Crystal Durability (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486611#msg7486611): Andres
0 - Creepy Crawly Crystals (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Furthest Forever Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Antimagic Bomb Concussive (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Lead Overlayed Crystal Ordnance (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Big Dummies (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.):
0 Save the revision credit for later use:
0 I want to see the results of the most popular revision before confirming the second revision:
Post by: helmacon on June 16, 2017, 06:36:14 am
A "series of connected mage gems" implies "as many as it needs to work. Your attempting miniaturization without having a product first.
Quote
ETA wants to charge Magegems via lightning and protect our soldiers while Lightning Rods is just intended to protect our soldiers. This makes ETA more ambitious. (That and it's wasting the ambition so we rely on the enemy to recharge our stuff.)
uhh... Your design does the exact same thing as mine. It grounds lightning into a mage gem. My fluff specified how we could possibly do that, your fluff just said "do it" with no explination. Yours is more likely to get a penalty, because it doesn't say how it is possibly with our current capabilities.
And, yes. Of course you can stick an ETA on the ground. It would be difficult to design something you couldn't set on the ground.
We need to counter lightning right now. It should have been the design. Judging by the bonuses we got, armor would have been fine as a revision, but we did it add the design instead. So we have to do this now.
Post by: andrea on June 16, 2017, 06:40:48 am
Post by: helmacon on June 16, 2017, 08:39:06 am
Also, we basically have flexible circuits with our scroll thing. If used correctly inside of our combat armor, it could very easily become power armor.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 16, 2017, 11:27:03 am
Post by: andrea on June 16, 2017, 11:30:02 am
But at that point, why even have a soldier inside?
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 16, 2017, 11:30:40 am
That might be an interesting development of plant tech.
But at that point, why even have a soldier inside?
To control it directly, we can develop the AI later...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 16, 2017, 11:47:27 am
(Working title)
We may not be able to create great accomplishments using plant magic, but we may have found another use for it.
Using a special form of plant - similar to the muscle humans move with - we can easily influence its length using plant magic. The plant is strong and durable.
By connecting the ends of this plant across an artificial joint, we can create magic-powered movement in ways remarkably similar to a humanoid.
This is done as a revision to plant growth because we already know how to influence the growth of plants at a large scale. We simply greatly decrease the scale for power and speed.
Post by: andrea on June 16, 2017, 11:59:06 am
Post by: RAM on June 16, 2017, 04:22:11 pm
By controlling the summoning process, it ought to be possible to affect other changes to the summoning process, such as overlaying the crystals on lead for make abundant heavy+rigid munitions. Or summoning inside of people, either as a weapon or implants...
Also, the G.M. apparently likes things with names. Even if they are formulaic references.
Creepy= Created from nothingness.
Crawly= Regeneration, they spread out slowly to restore damage.
Crystal= true.
Creepy-Crawly= underwater vacuum= vacuum crystal.
CCC= alliteration.
We just need a +1 from half of these naming traits and it will still blast through all obstacles!
Post by: evictedSaint on June 16, 2017, 04:43:33 pm
Post by: RAM on June 16, 2017, 05:54:02 pm
As for myself, I feel that it is a bit silly to have a fireball without a detonation change as that is currently what is preventing our apprentices from defending against carpets, but meh, no point trying to save the disaster train.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 16, 2017, 06:17:10 pm
Our massive experience with manipulating elements of the fireball makes this revision trivial.
Uch like the flare, we adjust the core components of the PSF and SPSF to better for our needs. The spell can be tweaked on the fly as-needed, and concussive variants are referred to with the "-C" modifier. The SPSF-C now provides the necessary force to propel rounds out of the R1 out to Extreme Range! Accuracy suffers beyond medium range, but the "effective" range of the gun is now long range.
Our cannons now no longer require water to operate, removing the rather complicated boiler attachments. The HA1 remains Expensive, however, as it still requires three apprentices to fire at once. The HC1-E drops to cheap, but it's already all but obsoleted by the HA1 at this point and we rarely use it outside of naval combat. The HAC-1 remains Expensive, as the gun is already made to a higher precision than our regular cannons and the boiler component is already very small.
Some of our mages speculate that the new variant of the low-heat high-expansion fireball could be used to make a better version of the steam engine, but for the moment that piece of equipment remains unchanged.
Post by: helmacon on June 16, 2017, 06:30:53 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 16, 2017, 06:38:58 pm
We build upon our efforts to create insulating crystal from the Combat Armor project. With this foundation, insulated crystal shall be an easy task.
The structure of crystal is changed to no longer facilitate electricity flowing through it. We already have plenty of experience tweaking crystal to achieve particular ends, and this is no different. The Crystalworks allows us unprecedented control of the properties of crystal, and things such as Crystal Glass only prove this. While we may have had not enough time to finish insulating crystal as a part of Combat Armor, we can use the work done there to gain a head-start here.
Insulating Crystal is to be primarily used in layers. In instances such as Combat Armor, our Crystalworks shall create the insides of the Combat Armor out of insulating Crystal while ensuring a path from the head to the ground in conducting crystal. As a result, the occupant is virtually entirely protected by lightning and other similar environmental hazards, and the electricity harmlessly flows to the ground.
This layered approach can be used for practically any design, with Combat Armor being the highest priority. With this revision, we aim on equipping as many designs as possible with the new crystal variant.
TL;DR: Use our experience from the failed attempt in Combat Armor to make insulating crystal. This should be easy given we already gave it some effort as a part of Combat Armor. Should typically be incorporated in designs via layering conducting crystal on the outside, giving a path to the ground, with insulating crystal protecting the occupant/design/tech/whatever. Should be applied to Combat Armor and preferably everything else.
Experience/Difficulty - We already made a (partial) attempt at insulating crystal with the Combat armor design. We have experience with finely manipulating individual properties of crystal just in general, and with Crystal Glass. We have the Crystalworks, which greatly facilitates tweaking Crystal's properties. The actual layering part is easy. We can already seamlessly integrate crystal glass into our designs, and insulating crystal should be no different. This should be easy.
Insulating - Insulating crystal insulates against electricity. Surprise, eh?
Layering - While it should be acceptable anyways in Wands Race, apparently it's not the best idea to just make the whole armor out of insulated crystal. But if we just insulate the inside, the occupant is protected against electricity while the electricity can still path through the conductive crystal to ground. This method obviously should be applied to crystal armor first, but can be used with pretty much any design - the Crystalclad, steam engine, our cannons, etc.
Distribution - It should be pretty easy to incorporate this into our designs given the apparent ease we had with Crystal Glass. But priority from most critical to least is: Combat Armor, Steam Engine, Cannon, Crystalclad, Restless, any other crystal designs I forgot about.
If anyone wants to reintroduce any revision, please feel free to just copy it over from the other votes.
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Revisions:
2 - Insulating Crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7487260#msg7487260): Chiefwaffles, Helmacon
But yeah, the Blastball is great! The better AS-R1 should be great, the combat armor should be nice, and hopefully insulating crystal goes well too. The steam engine comment seems promising, as we can use that in conjunction with our "steam engine credit" to get a much better engine. At some point, we should look into improving the accuracy of the AS-R1 as well. And cheapness. Cheapness can be done by better magegems (which can also be used for the HA1 to decrease its apprentice cost)
(Let's do the IDE!)
Also people use the discord please so I can talk about designs without doing it post-by-post on the forums!
Note to self: If we decrease apprentice requirement of HA1 down to anywhere(?) from 3, it should lower in cost from Expensive to Regular.
EDIT: Evicted, two questions:
1.) Will the Concussive variant be useful as a regular spell, for use in anti-air? (Knocking riders off of carpets, etc.)
2.) Does the Concussive variant have potential against Moskurg armor?
And I just realized that the lack of water requirement should really help us with the HA1 as even with the train, it should benefit because we can focus on transporting shells, we can set up the HA1 anywhere instead of near a lake, etc.
Oh, and our cannons RoF should increase too without the requirement to load water!
EDIT2: I added the "advanced summary" to Insulating Crystal.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 16, 2017, 07:00:50 pm
Your fireballs have always been effective against Moskurg Armor. It's not a full-body suit, hitting them with a PSF will wash over the exposed bits like face and hands and stuff.
Post by: Kadzar on June 16, 2017, 07:12:43 pm
Quote
Revisions:
3 - Insulating Crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7487260#msg7487260): Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Kadzar
Post by: RAM on June 16, 2017, 07:55:41 pm
Quote
Revisions:
1 - Conjure Water (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565): RAM
0 - Beachfront Frost Tower (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565):
0 - Anti-Magic Mist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485810#msg7485810):
1 - ETA (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485580#msg7485580): helmacon
1 - Crystal Durability (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486611#msg7486611): Andres
0 - Creepy Crawly Crystals (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Furthest Forever Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Antimagic Bomb Concussive (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Lead Overlayed Crystal Ordnance (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Big Dummies (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
3 - Insulating Crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7487260#msg7487260): Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Kadzar
0 - (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.):
0 Save the revision credit for later use:
I voted for the Combat Armor so we could have lightning protection, so I consider this is essential:Creepy Crawly Crystals are also lightning protection, with the added bonus of potentially lighter and less flawed crystals while also offering more future expansion and having a better name and higher odds of success... True, it relies upon the utterly ridiculous notion of using insulation to protect against lightning, but that is the standard way of doing things in WandRworld.Quote
Oh, and please stop throwing away good voteboxes, the previous votes are very much relevant at this time...
Post by: helmacon on June 16, 2017, 07:58:12 pm
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Our cannons now no longer require water to operate, removing the rather complicated boiler attachments.
Post by: RAM on June 16, 2017, 08:04:24 pm
Adding a note to C.C.C. to note distribution.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 16, 2017, 10:37:11 pm
Quote
Revisions:
1 - Conjure Water (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565): RAM
0 - Beachfront Frost Tower (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565):
0 - Anti-Magic Mist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485810#msg7485810):
1 - ETA (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485580#msg7485580): helmacon
1 - Crystal Durability (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486611#msg7486611): Andres
0 - Creepy Crawly Crystals (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Furthest Forever Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Antimagic Bomb Concussive (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Lead Overlayed Crystal Ordnance (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Big Dummies (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
4 - Insulating Crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7487260#msg7487260): Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Kadzar, FallacyofUrist
0 - (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.):
0 Save the revision credit for later use:
Post by: Andres on June 16, 2017, 11:47:22 pm
Revision: Insulating CrystalMy big problem with this design is that it's too sciencey. Moving electricity to the ground? That's unnecessary. Just say that it insulates against electricity and let it bounce off/not hit at all. Moskurg has proven that such physics-defying thing is possible what with how their lightning spell works against our plate-armoured troops despite faraday cages. (Whatever those are supposed to be.) Making it simply so that it's "electricity doesn't work on it" means we don't have to bother with armour layering and it means we don't have to potentially worry about grounding and its potential problems that may in some way come up in the future.
Insulating Crystal is to be primarily used in layers. In instances such as Combat Armor, our Crystalworks shall create the insides of the Combat Armor out of insulating Crystal while ensuring a path from the head to the ground in conducting crystal. As a result, the occupant is virtually entirely protected by lightning and other similar environmental hazards, and the electricity harmlessly flows to the ground.
TL;DR: Use our experience from the failed attempt in Combat Armor to make insulating crystal. This should be easy given we already gave it some effort as a part of Combat Armor. Should typically be incorporated in designs via layering conducting crystal on the outside, giving a path to the ground, with insulating crystal protecting the occupant/design/tech/whatever. Should be applied to Combat Armor and preferably everything else.
Layering - While it should be acceptable anyways in Wands Race, apparently it's not the best idea to just make the whole armor out of insulated crystal. But if we just insulate the inside, the occupant is protected against electricity while the electricity can still path through the conductive crystal to ground. This method obviously should be applied to crystal armor first, but can be used with pretty much any design - the Crystalclad, steam engine, our cannons, etc.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 16, 2017, 11:54:01 pm
Layering doesn't add any real difficulty because of how easily we can combine/manipulate different types of crystal, as shown by how we integrated Crystal Glass into Combat Armor.
Point is that layering is simple, straightforward, and doesn't add any difficulty.
Post by: Andres on June 17, 2017, 12:33:01 am
If Evicted doesn't want to deal with the science he can just say "you incorporate insulated crystal into your designs and they're now lightning-resistant." The science behind it is simple: Ground electricity while protecting the important stuff.((Ok.))
Layering doesn't add any real difficulty because of how easily we can combine/manipulate different types of crystal, as shown by how we integrated Crystal Glass into Combat Armor.
Point is that layering is simple, straightforward, and doesn't add any difficulty.
Quote
Revisions:
1 - Conjure Water (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565): RAM
0 - Beachfront Frost Tower (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565):
0 - Anti-Magic Mist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485810#msg7485810):
1 - ETA (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485580#msg7485580): helmacon
0 - Crystal Durability (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486611#msg7486611):
0 - Creepy Crawly Crystals (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Furthest Forever Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Antimagic Bomb Concussive (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Lead Overlayed Crystal Ordnance (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Big Dummies (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
5 - Insulating Crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7487260#msg7487260): Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Kadzar, FallacyofUrist, Andres
0 - (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.):
0 Save the revision credit for later use:
Future design/revision: Fireball. The current Fireball family is inefficient. In its current sub-optimal state, the Streamlined Fireball and the Powerful Streamlined Fireball are different spells, despite the only difference between the two being power. No more. From now on, there will only be the Fireball spell.
This reworking of the Fireball spell is such that a low-powered and higher-powered version of the spell will all be one spell. Instead of an apprentice casting "SF" for a low-powered ball of fire or "PSF" for a high-powered ball of fire, they cast "Fireball" and choose how much power they put into the spell, the amount of power they can put in being limited only by their skill.
With this spell, an apprentice could theoretically cast a spell even less powerful than our current SF without having to learn a new spell; they just pour in less power than they would if they were casting an SF-level Fireball. By that same mechanic, Myark could throw out a fireball magnitudes more powerful than our PSF using the same Fireball as that same apprentice, he just puts in more power than the apprentice did. (Though he can of course put in less than his maximum, if he wanted to.) Furthermore, a wizard can further augment the power of their Fireballs by pouring in magical energy stored in magegems.
This allows our wizards to have more flexibility in casting and allows our proper wizards - especially Myark - to reach their full potential and not being limited in the amount of damage they can do by the hard limits of the spell. Ideally, this upgrade can be applied to the other Fireball family spells - Flare and Concussion. Our wizards could blast apart a ship with Concussion when working together and Myark could outright blind the enemy by casting an exceptionally luminescent Flare.
Credit must go to our glorious king's glorious son and heir, who brought to our attention the fact that our wizards were more being used to power devices than doing anything significant on their own. This new system should solve or at least greatly alleviate the problem.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: helmacon on June 17, 2017, 12:40:55 am
Pretty much yes. I haven't relooked at the list, but I knew what that was going in. Summoned water would be extremely valuable. It has always had huge potential for hygiene, concealed camps, crossing deserts, logistic trains, sea voyages... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... The extent to which ready access to water would help any army is pretty much mind-exploding. If it isn't permanent then it would be potentially problematic to drink it, but even then, the number of lives that can be saved just from clean socks can't be underestimated.
Adding a note to C.C.C. to note distribution.
Certainly having access to water is useful, but do you really think it is more important than a lightning counter? The reports haven't made any specific mention of us needing water, and I imagine that our supply trains mitigate any critical needs for it. It really just seems low priority right now.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 17, 2017, 03:18:31 am
Powered Artillery
The HA-2 is, of course, the latest improvement to the versatile AS-HA1. At the Academy, we aren't just satisfied with complete domination of the artillery game; we want to go further. The artillery piece is all-crystal in construction. It looks vaguely like a rectangular prism with a large barrel extruding from the front. The entire construction is covered in crystal; the crew and ammo reside inside the crystal enclosure where they're safe from enemy fire and environmental hazards.
Crystal Glass is used extensively in the design, allowing for 360 degrees of vision both upwards and downwards - even moreso with the AS-HA1, as the HA1 blocked vision directly ahead with itself. The crew can easily see out in any direction, and spotting is not an issue at all. If needed, cooling circuits (which we have very large amounts of experience with) can be used to cool the interior to a very comfortable temperature, and ventilation similar to that on Combat Armor can be employed so its crew doesn't suffocate.
The crystal interior, to reduce expenses, is remarkably small. It fits three people (the required crew), immediate ammunition, and nothing else. The AS-HA-2 is not designed to go places without support, is not designed to move soldiers, and is not designed to actually have anything above a short-term supply of ammo. This is mobile artillery, not an independent fighting vehicle. Our Mathemagicians are explicitly instructed to not go overboard with this aspect of the design.
Hopefully the small crystal interior combined with the Crystalworks should ensure that the expense of the AS-HA-2 is not raised relative to the AS-HA1.
The AS-HA-2 is powered by a new kind of steam engine ((using the free steam engine upgrade)) that makes use of general mathematical improvements and the Blastball. The Blastball allows the steam engine to be much smaller while outputting more power. The engine is made out of crystal like our other engines and is safely secured. Its smaller construction allows it to be easily incorporated into the AS-HA-2 without requiring a notable increase in size, and its greater power means the AS-HA-2 will be remarkably fast.
The steam engine powers the wheels on the AS-HA-2, allowing it to move itself; the smaller size of the HA1 and the improved steam engine should give it very remarkable speeds with very little difficulty. But if it doesn't come easily, improving the speed of the HA-2 is a very low priority in this design.
For vertical alignment of the barrel, the AS-HA-2 has an interesting feature. The barrel uses a system of gears very similar to the AS-HAC-1, but scaled up to be able to support the heavier and larger barrel. Manual alignment of the barrel is possible and is easier than aligning the HA1's barrel, but it's not the primary way to align it.
The steam engine is geared by default to the wheels, but anyone in the crew can, with the pulling of a lever, switch the gears to connect the steam engine to the barrel's gears instead. This allows for easy powered vertical movement of the barrel. It's possible to move the barrel vertically with the steam engine while moving or rotating the actual construction, but manual alignment here is still possible if absolutely required. But thanks to the ease of the powered movement, quickly switching between vertical alignment and horizontal rotation/movement is a much faster method of aiming the barrel instead of alignment using gears or the AS-HA1's methods.
Another aspect of the barrel's new rotational capabilities is its maximum angles. The barrel can be aligned from 45 degrees downward to 90 degrees upward. It can't be rotated side-to-side, but the AS-HA-2's self-locomotion effectively replaces the need for horizontal rotation of the barrel. Both powered vertical and horizontal alignment are much more robust and quicker than their mundane counterparts in the AS-HA1.
TL;DR: Powered artillery. An upgrade to the AS-HA1 that can move itself around the battlefield quickly, has a greater firing angle, ensures maximum protection for its crew from anything Moskurg has to offer via a completely enclosed interior for the crew, and can very quickly aim using powered rotation for its barrel and the whole construction. Uses Crystal Glass to allow for maximum (even greater) visibility without sacrificing integrity or protection.
This is more-so of a brainstorm design. (Probably) not something I'm immediately pushing for next turn or anything like that.
Andres suggested this with just explosive ammunition and improved firing angles, but that feels very unambitious for a design. Especially considering how we improved firing angles on the HC1-E as an unintended side effect of the HC2 which rolled a [3, 3, 1].
This is kind of but not really like a tank. It's not meant to be used in the front lines, but its ability to move itself is to allow for very easy relocation as the battle lines change. Its crystal enclosure allows for safety from environmental hazards and Moskurg weaponry. Originally, I was going to have it be open and not entirely enclosed in crystal, but then I realized we have Crystal Glass and extensive experience in crystal construction.
Why do this instead of a tank, and why do this instead of just a better artillery piece?
1.) This makes tanks/APCs even easier. Hell, they aren't hard to do right now, but a bonus of this design is that tanks and APCs will be just a revision away after this. Add some seats, swap out the cannons, add more cannons, add anti-magic resistance, and more!
2.) It's been explicitly stated before that a disadvantage of the HA1 is its difficulty to move. As the battle lines move forward or backwards, the HA1 can't keep up. If we're losing any ground at all, then the HA1 can't move backwards in time and is hurt by enemy forces. The AS-HA-2 will also be able to easily move forward and just about anywhere, which is a huge buff in general.
3.) The all-crystal enclosure protects the crew against all threats that even combat armor with a 6 on insulated crystal can't protect against.
4.) Better firing angles - the HA-2 will be able to actually fire at nearby airships now, greatly reducing their effectiveness. That and better firing angles are just good in general.
5.) Easier aiming. The powered aiming will make the HA-2 more accurate and quicker to aim. Time between spotting and firing is reduced, moving targets are easier to handle, etc.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 17, 2017, 03:22:20 am
This is a small row boat sized ship made of crystal with a hardened bottom. A super high powered blastball spell is cast under it, shooting it up into the sky. Done repeatedly it can stay aloft for a while, but more importantly it is very fast to fly up, where it can unload several armed men directly onto enemy airships!
It's a first generation rocket powered airship.
Post by: Andres on June 17, 2017, 03:52:41 am
Future Design: AS-HA-2I really dislike this design. The actual shape just doesn't make sense to me, it doesn't get us explosive ammunition, it tries to put something too big for trains onto something that doesn't go on tracks, and it wastes the free engine bonus on something that really doesn't need it. A proper fighting vehicle, a new ship, or a gyrocopter would all be good candidates for the engine, but not this thing.
Right now, what we need is better firing angles, explosive ammunition, a horse carriage, and then some kind of system to manage the recoil so our men don't have to re-aim it after every firing. It gives us everything we need and is simple enough that we can get it done despite the EA. We can get truly mobile artillery at a later date, but gunning for it right now is unwise. The horse carriage should at least give it some mobility.
We are getting crushed out at sea and your design will either be impossible to apply to ships or result in a malus to adapt it to ships. An upgrade whose structural change is limited only to better firing angles and recoil management, on the other hand, would work very well on ships.
FUTURE DESIGN NOT NOW: BlastboatThis seems like it would be better done with some kind of variant of Fire Wall with Concussion mixed into it rather than than C-balls. C-balls are good for explosions, but what you're looking for seems like some kind of continuous effect, which is what Fire Wall is. Definitely not a bad idea, though. The fact that our circuits means we can have continuous effects running forever means this could definitely be a possibility.
This is a small row boat sized ship made of crystal with a hardened bottom. A super high powered blastball spell is cast under it, shooting it up into the sky. Done repeatedly it can stay aloft for a while, but more importantly it is very fast to fly up, where it can unload several armed men directly onto enemy airships!
It's a first generation rocket powered airship.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 17, 2017, 04:18:30 am
FUTURE DESIGN NOT NOW: BlastboatThis seems like it would be better done with some kind of variant of Fire Wall with Concussion mixed into it rather than than C-balls. C-balls are good for explosions, but what you're looking for seems like some kind of continuous effect, which is what Fire Wall is. Definitely not a bad idea, though. The fact that our circuits means we can have continuous effects running forever means this could definitely be a possibility.
This is a small row boat sized ship made of crystal with a hardened bottom. A super high powered blastball spell is cast under it, shooting it up into the sky. Done repeatedly it can stay aloft for a while, but more importantly it is very fast to fly up, where it can unload several armed men directly onto enemy airships!
It's a first generation rocket powered airship.
Glory to Arstotzka.
I am up to any suggestion to revising my idea so it actually works.
Also I was thinking over the summoning ammunition idea, what if we just make a mini crystal-works factory as part of the cannon,. to keep summoning crystal cannon balls. Summon, blastball, summon, blastball. Even if the crystal has a weaker punch then stone steel or lead it would fire much faster.
Post by: RAM on June 17, 2017, 05:18:25 am
FUTURE DESIGN NOT NOW: BlastboatI feel that we would be better with a pulse-jet than an orion drive. It would be more focused and controllable.
This is a small row boat sized ship made of crystal with a hardened bottom. A super high powered blastball spell is cast under it, shooting it up into the sky. Done repeatedly it can stay aloft for a while, but more importantly it is very fast to fly up, where it can unload several armed men directly onto enemy airships!
It's a first generation rocket powered airship.
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ScootgunThe blast spell would improve it. Really, this is just crystals and fireball. It is a revision. Actually, so is the cart.. the scoot-gun would totally work as a revision! Oh, wait, the repeating spell is sort of... well, we have loads of circuits, and it is pretty much a continuous fog... Really, this is all existing magics...
We build an open wagon from crystal, add an extra two pairs of slightly-raised wheels on triangular stalks front-and-back for stability, stick our smallest cannon on it, add a metal rod to attract lightning instead of the cannon, and then put three pulse-jets at the back to make it go-fast.
Pulse-jet
A crystal tube with two necks with cages on one side and a tightly-fitting cork loose within the cages. A repeating boomball spell is remotely detonated between the two necks. The boomball pushes the front cork into the neck and [atmospheric medium] out the back. The sudden absence of the boomball pulls the rear cork into the neck and pulls [atmospheric medium] into the front. This produces a jet of [atmospheric medium] in one direction in frequent pulses.
This design was a fairly obvious attempt to produce fireball-based propulsion. it started with a one-sided tube, but the fireball would suck the tube backwards after pushing it forwards. Then we tried a mechanical cork system to close it, but the cork kept getting pushed out. At that point we realised that the cork would be pushed closed if we had the correct mechanisms to do so, which was pretty easy with summoned parts.
Certainly having access to water is useful, but do you really think it is more important than a lightning counter? The reports haven't made any specific mention of us needing water, and I imagine that our supply trains mitigate any critical needs for it. It really just seems low priority right now.The trains have lots of things to carry and water is heavy and bulky. Ships need to return to port to get it. This would give our ships much better navigable range, improve morale, make us less exposed to skirmish stage if that is still a thing, improve health and recovery, add extra ammunition transportation and increase the ability of our forces to skirmish by freeing them up from having to expose themselves by trafelling to water sources. It is basically a small-large bonus to pretty much everything. Provided that it is potable. If it is not potable then it misses out on a lot of goodies, but we do have permanent conjuration of crystals so it is not that far-fetched.
As for not voting for anything else? I prefer CCC to insulation and CCC was first, so I won't vote for insulation, and it seems like a dead-end unless we go into electrical engineering, which seems like going too far, but whatever... And we could make electrical cicuits with other stuff, conductive crystal would be redundant enough to not bother with.
Beachfront frost would be good, and resist lightning, but apparently our frost is doing nothing to stop their weather now, because mountais are super-cold with absolutely nothing possible except for blizzards, but apparently they are lightning blizzards... So given that temperature is not a thing anytmore, I guess beach freezers are sort of pointlesss, and the main cited advantage is to stop ground landings, and they are using air landings, in the middle of a thunderstorm... so there is not any point.
The mist seems insane for a revision, is a giant "ballistae aims here!" sign over our wizards, can just be avoided... It is just a big no on that one even if it were possible.
ETA is too ambicious. maybe. It is probably worth a shot but I am just not feeling it.
CCC FFF ABC LOCO, big dummies, and scootgun are mine, so I don't vote for them.
Insulating crystal just seems kind of like a big effort for a small result. CCC is just better. It is more likely to work and offers better advancement and a better material... I just can't vote for Inzsulating Crystal while CCC is on the table, and I can't vote for CCC necause it is mine, and even if I could, it is a bulky design, we likely can't use it everywhere, there may be supply issues, if we really wanted to get rid of the lightning then big dummies would be quick, simple, and effective. And I really do think that water could be good enough to justify itself. It won't stop them, no, but it might open up enough options to do something really nice next turn and the insular crystal doesn't do that.
...
Okay, fine, I do want to be immune to lightning, but we can do better than to do it with a material that we need to cover everything with.. It is not a terrible idea. It will probably work as advertised, which would be a refreshing change, but still, not good enough.
I am happy with water as my choice. I would vote for one of my own things instead given the choice. Probably CCC to fix our armour and leverage it into discardding sabots next turn. Scootgun would be very effective on open land though, it would probably hold us the jungle and plains. And it would reveal if lightning rods, real lightning rods, actually work, because that is dead easy to do for all of our stuff and protects an area... Nt to mention pulse-jets are a faster form of propulsion and, well, they are legitimately going to be jets and as far as I can see there are no new elements, so they are basically guaranteed to work?
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Revisions:
1 - Conjure Water (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565): RAM
0 - Beachfront Frost Tower (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485565#msg7485565):
0 - Anti-Magic Mist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485810#msg7485810):
1 - ETA (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7485580#msg7485580): helmacon
0 - Crystal Durability (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486611#msg7486611):
0 - Creepy Crawly Crystals (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Furthest Forever Frost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Antimagic Bomb Concussive (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Lead Overlayed Crystal Ordnance (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
0 - Big Dummies (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7486626#msg7486626):
5 - Insulating Crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7487260#msg7487260): Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Kadzar, FallacyofUrist, Andres
0 - Scootgun (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7487653#msg7487653):
0 Save the revision credit for later use:
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 17, 2017, 05:39:06 am
it tries to put something too big for trains onto something that doesn't go on tracksWell, yeah. That's the point. This is without a doubt something that we would not get penalties for. We got a -1 to effectiveness on a tracked APC when Evicted misinterpreted the Restless design. Now that we'll have a better engine and experience with engine-powered land vehicles, this part wouldn't be a problem.
But again, that form of the HA-2 was mostly just a brainstorm design. Not something I'm sold on.
Future Design: AS-LFV-1
Land Fighting Vehicle
The AS-LFV-1 is an all-crystal enclosed land vehicle powered by a steam engine. It's equipped with an AS-HAC-1 and a single frontal HC1-E cannon. It seats 8 people along with a fairly large amount of ammunition.
Inside, the steam engine is placed horizontally along the center of the vehicle. The LFV-1's steam engine has made radical improvements over our old steam engines (using the free upgrade) via the use of the Concussive fireball "Blastball" variant. The Blastball allows for greatly increased efficiency in the steam engines, letting us make a much smaller steam engine providing much more power.
As the LFV-1 is lighter than a fully-loaded (or even partially-loaded) Restless and uses an improved steam engine, it should have much greater general power and speed. It'll be able to handle steeper inclines, it'll go much faster, and more. This steam engine upgrade should be applied to all designs using the steam engine as well.
The AS-LFV-1 is an entirely crystal design. It should be resistant to any kind of environmental hazard or threat posed by Moskurg thanks to its armor. Crystal Glass is used extensively here - the area near the driver's seat is made almost entirely out of crystal glass, allowing for great vision ahead of the vehicle. A large and fairly tall crystal glass "window" runs unending horizontally through the entire design, starting at one end of the crystal glass front viewing port, and ending at the other side. Visibility is not a problem.
The driver's seat is placed towards the left side of the front, with the HC1-E taking up the space on the right.
The HC1-E is surrounded by crystal glass, allowing the operator(s) to easily see where they're targeting. The HC1-E is built "halfway" between the inside and outside of the vehicle, with the barrel both starting and ending outside. A set of gears, based on the design of the AS-HAC-1, allow the inside operator to easily manipulate the orientation of the HC1-E barrel for simple aiming. The HC1-E is of course a very destructive weapon, and should prove devastating up close.
The AS-HAC-1 is located on the top. The actual weapon is outside, but its aiming mechanics have been tweaked to allow a person in a small raised Crystal Glass portion on the top of the vehicle to control it from inside. The AS-HAC-1 has 360 degrees of firing angles horizontally and 180 degrees vertically. The raised crystal glass "firing seat" is just high enough to allow for the single operator to see anywhere it can aim without blocking areas from being shot at by the AS-HAC-1. This crystal glass enclosure completely protects the operator while giving them total visibility.
The AS-LFV-1 can fit a total of 10 people, including the driver and HC1-E operator, while the AS-HAC-1's ease of use allows for it to be easily powered by an apprentice while doing something else and easily controlled by any passenger. Seating is placed on the sides of the interior, facing the steam engine. All passengers can be wearing full Combat Armor while riding, and there's enough storage space for a very sizeable amount of ammunition for the cannons and weaponry (AS-R1s, Crystal Axes, or Broadswords) of the passengers.
Finally, the AS-LFV-1 is to be made anti-magic resistant. We believe we can "insulate" our circuits and Magegems to prevent anti-magic from "draining" them. The magical energy will be secured inside the circuits via magical insulation (based off of our insulating crystal) and thus safe from anti-magic. The top priority for anti-magic resistance is the steam engine first, and cannons second.
The AS-LFV-1 should be a devastating design. It can securely transport our troops to the front lines while under any amounts of enemy fire. It can roll through enemy fortifications, provide serious fire support at very close range, and more. It'll be a design to change the nature of the war. Due to the crystal construction, the Expensive steam engine, the Cheap HC1-E, and the Expensive AS-HAC-1, the AS-LFV-1 should very easily be an Expensive design.
TL;DR: A fighting vehicle designed to transport troops and provide serious fire support. I believe it shouldn't be hard (but should be easy to make Expensive) to do, but will save my reasoning for if/when I submit this as an actual design.
And now, an explosive shell worthy of a design. Though I still probably think revising one using our experience with the Blastball and Equalizer is better.
Future Design: Blastshell
The Blastshell is a shell powered by a continuous concussive blast. The Blastball variant propelling it is powered by an AA Magegem; this may not be the optimum amount of power for a true Blastball, but the Blastball only needs to add to its velocity. Our Mathemagicians are calling this "rocket propulsion". We've made a rocket-propelled shell.
This method of propulsion should greatly increase the range of any cannons using it to levels we haven't ever seen before. HC1-Es will be able to fire at Beyond LoS range, HA1s will be able to fire even further, and who knows about the AS-HAC-1s.
But that's not it. Another AA Magegem inside the shell powers an additional Blastball variant. On impact, a circuit connected to the AA Magegem will activate, activating the "stored' Blastball. The entire shell will detonate in a huge explosion that also includes lethal shrapnel from its broken-apart crystal exterior. The Blastball won't be "fully powered", but as this variant doesn't require its own propulsion and dedicates more magical energy to pressure rather than heat like the Fireball, the explosion from a landing Blastshell should be just as, if not more, devastating compared to a PSF.
The entire shell is made out of machine crystal, making it cheaper, and allowing for very effective fragmentation when it detonates. Finally, we're taking advantage of our Crystal's relative brittleness! The cheap crystal shell and our experience with similar special shells should make handling the Blastshell's expense fairly easy. We're aiming for a Cheap shell, but an Expensive one is... acceptable.
The Blastshell does require two new variants of the Blastball, but they're both minor and at this point, making new variants in the Fireball family is as easy as breathing for Arstotzkan mathemagicians.
And another Gyrocopter!
AS-AFV-1 "Gyrocopter"
Aerial Fighting Vehicle
The AFV-1 is a remarkable design. Via the use of the Concussive fireball "Blastball" variant, we've made a greatly improved steam engine. The Blastball allows for greatly increased efficiency in the steam engines, letting us make a much smaller steam engine providing much more power. With this innovation in steam engines, the impossible is now possible: A flying steam-powered vehicle. A lighter and more powerful steam engine finally allows us to realize this dream.
The AFV-1 is a small design. The "cockpit" is almost entirely crystal glass, allowing for unrestricted vision in nearly any direction. Two hatches on the side allow for the single operator to get in and out easily.
Behind the cockpit is the steam engine which is encased in just enough crystal to allow for it to resist a direct Ballista bolt, but is still relatively exposed.
Directly above the steam engine and cockpit is the vertical rotor facing upwards, which is unpowered.
Behind the steam engine is the main rotor, facing away from the helicopter, powered by the steam engine. Of course, there's a lot of details for our Mathemagicians to handle, but the basic concept is that by spinning the main rotor, we can create forward thrust. This forward thrust will interact with the vertical rotor which will then create upwards thrust.
Located on the front of the cockpit are two fixed AS-HAC-1 cannons. These cannons are still breech-loaded, but can be both fired at once then loaded on the return run. A decent amount of ammunition is stored in the cockpit; not enough to allow long-term independent operation, but still fairly large amounts of ammo without compromising the weight.
The AFV-1 requires a small runway to take off. As a part of this design, we aim to also quickly jury-rig a runway on the side of each Crystalclads to allow for their own AFV-1(s).
TL;DR: A Gyrocopter equipped with two AS-HAC-1 cannons.
I don't think we should go for this yet. Let's wait until we have a better propulsion method or engine. Like the IDE!
And finally.
Future Revision: Internal Detonation Engine
We believe we can make the engine of the future.
The Internal Detonation Engine is an engine making full use of the Fireball Concussive Variant - the Blastball. We realized that our current method with the steam engine is simply inefficient. We could be doing so much more, especially with the blastball.
The IDE works off of a series of contained Blastball detonations - hence the name. At first, we tried using a series of pistons in the steam engine - having the steam push up the piston then gravity pulling it back down. But it turned out that this wouldn't work well with steam. So we made another change - the Blastball. Instead of using steam, we decided to cut out the middleman just like we did with our cannons. Very small Blastball variants detonate inside small chambers covered by pistons. The piston is pushed outwards by the detonation, applying torque to a ring ultimately connected to a crankshaft that will extend outwards from the engine to power other things.
Conduits on the crankshaft connect and disconnect circuits as it moves, allowing for the blastball detonation to occur in the right pattern based on load in an easy way, without the need for complex oversight or timer circuits. With this, we can use multiple engines all connected to the same crankshaft allowing for direct addition of more power. It would be nearly impossible for a human mage to be able to time his Blastballs correctly, so instead power is input into an AA Magegem connected to the Blastball circuits. Of course, the engine will be able to last zero seconds without power input, but the Magegem allows for a mage to simply "input" power into one place instead of summoning each spell manually.
The Blastballs used are specialized variants greatly reduced in scale. Their power is enough to push the pistons for maximum engine power output, but the smaller-scale compared to the squad-destroying PSF should mean we can greatly reduce the thickness of the crystal used in the construction of the engine, and it should reduce the power input requirement for mages and in the future, better magegems.
The result is amazing. Groundbreaking, even. The IDE can output massive amounts of power at a radically decreased size. Our vehicles will be able to be much lighter with much more power. Our trains and Crystalclads should go much faster, and new applications of the engine we never thought could happen before will become possible.
We hope to be able to incorporate the IDE in our current steam engine designs, as the IDE still outputs power in the same way. It's just smaller and more powerful.
Difficulty - The miniature Blastball variants should be extremely easy to do - just scale down the blastball. Considering how easy we made the Blastball variant, something even simpler like scaling it down shouldn't even be worth factoring into the difficulty.
How is this possible in a revision? - Well, think of it this way; we have the "steam engine credit" that Evicted gave us, allowing us to upgrade our engine for free as a part of a relevant action. So really, we effectively have two revisions. So the first revision is making the steam engine piston-based (we made it turbine-based in a revision!), and the second revision is making the piston-based engine work on Blastballs instead of steam.
Expense - Well, the steam engine is Expensive and it's pretty complex. The internal detonation engine is more-so moving the complexity sideways which happens to greatly increase efficiency. Its crystal construction and our experience with mechanics should all help to hopefully make it Expensive.
Sidenote: I should make another Submarine design. Alternatively, instead of something like the Dreadnought design, we could make a new Cheap boat equipped with a new steam engine, enclosed in crystal, and equipped with a single HC1-E. Has a small crew of maybe like 4. Should be pretty effective?
Post by: andrea on June 17, 2017, 08:29:58 am
Gyrocopter version A (designation pending)
Our turbine blades use air flux to produce rotation, but we can reverse the mechanism, applying rotation to create an air flux. This would allow us to lift vehicles like the primitive moskurg carpets.
However, we need a source of motile strength to rotate it. Our steam engines could work, but they are heavy. Our blastball offers us a solution: at the end of each blade of the rotor, there is a barrel open on one side. inside the barrel, a blastball is cast, many times. Just as it can propel a projectile at high speed, so the blastball/cans can apply great force on the rotor. Those blastball engines are powered from the vehicle through circuitry and magegems. While magegems aren't enough to power the device by themselves, they allow to smooth the pulsed input required by continuously firing blastballs.
The cabin itself is made entirely on crystal, except for leather covering on the chairs for the comfort of our soldiers. Transparent crystal is used in a big frontal window and a smaller ring all around the cabin for great view.
2 AS-HAC-1 cannons are included in the design, sticking out of the frontal window. Holes in the frontal window are provided to allow them limited mobility. Relatively flexible hard boiled leather closes the small gap between the cannon and the hole in the crystal, sealing the cabin against attacks.
The crew includes a pilot/captain to plot the course and direct the craft, a magic user to power the engines and 2 gunners/reloaders
--------------
I still need to think of the best way to direct it ( how do we make it turn, or go ahead? for the latter, movement of center of mass would work, but rotation on a tip jet design is a concern. Additional blastjets may be used).
Furthermore, I am concerned by number of gunners. I htink either I iwll reduce it to one cannon, or go for a twin cannon like waffles's design.
Input is welcome.
PS: Tip jets are a thing that actually exist, for some reason. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tip_jet)
Post by: evictedSaint on June 17, 2017, 12:42:08 pm
The ordered structure of crystal apparently lends itself quite well to the flow of lightning. An adjustment to the structure can be made that doesn't necessarily disallow lightning to flow, but does make the journey much more difficult. Unfortunately, the more difficult crystal causes it to become quite hot when struck by lightning, causing it to actually partially liquify at the insanely high temperatures. For the people inside the armor, this is a Very Bad ThingTM.
Fortunately, much like the Moskurgs themselves, lightning is very lazy and would prefer an easier path. A braided steel wire runs from the right foot of the Combat Armor, up the leg, up the back, and finally terminating in a short antenna on the helmet. Preliminary tests show that this should give the lightning an easier path to travel, although it is likely the "lightning rod" won't survive the initial hit. The soldier would get knocked over when the wire explodes into a fine mist of super-heated steel vapor, but provided he doesn't get struck twice he should be fine. The worst we could expect from the initial lightning strike is the sudden pressure cracking parts of the armor, but that should be it.
We've taken the liberty of adding six of these antennas to the full-crystal Crystalclad and changing the structure to the more lightning-resistive crystal type, which should give it a few strikes worth of survivability.
Post by: helmacon on June 17, 2017, 01:01:54 pm
Still, this should be fine for what we need. Our boats can get in close, sink a few enemy's, and pull out to replace their lightning rods before they get disabled. It forces us to use more "hit and run" tactics, but at least we can fight them again.
Our massive infantry advantage might be able to brute force our way through as well, working with our massive artillery advantage.
Next turn we ought to design the new engine with the engine credit and all our experience, and maybe revise auto loading for our artillery? The auto loading would transition nicely to automatic rifles. It would help infantry and be nice for our future gyrocopters.
Post by: Kadzar on June 17, 2017, 02:46:27 pm
Post by: Andres on June 17, 2017, 03:04:56 pm
Post by: andrea on June 17, 2017, 03:11:41 pm
For a revision next turn, assuming the armor works well and our infantry turn out to be usable again, we should really revise magegems so that they're cheaper so that we can field more rifles.
I would rather get them more powerful. same effect for the rifle because we can use smaller ones, but it allows us to play with higher power spells.
Post by: Kadzar on June 17, 2017, 03:50:31 pm
We can make a high-powered variant, too, but, as it is now, they're limited to being Very Expensive for non-mages. So reducing the expense of magegems should net us some increased fire-rate and help in other areas where gems are used. And, at this point, making a more powerful magegem would just give us a more portable though maybe not as powerful artillery piece that requires National Effort.For a revision next turn, assuming the armor works well and our infantry turn out to be usable again, we should really revise magegems so that they're cheaper so that we can field more rifles.
I would rather get them more powerful. same effect for the rifle because we can use smaller ones, but it allows us to play with higher power spells.
Preedit: Looking at your post again, I guess what you meant was that we'd increase the power of gems at all levels, so that each would have power level of the next one up? I guess that might work, though I'd think trying to just make them cheaper would more reliably achieve what we want.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 17, 2017, 03:53:58 pm
The Blastshell is an all-crystal shell. Inside it are two AA-size magegems and some circuitry. The circuitry is set to create a Blastball configured for the 2x AA gems when sufficient pressure is applied to the tip of the shell, such as an impact with the target.
When the Blastshell hits it target, the circuit triggers, the Blastball is created, and the shell explodes with it. Lethal crystal shrapnel is sent out everywhere as the (relatively) brittle crystal shell breaks apart. The actual Blastball has a wide area of effect itself, and will devastate the surroundings far more effectively than a fireball wasting energy on heat as well as expansion.
The 2x AA Magegems means the Blastball isn't as effective as it could be, but without wasting energy on propulsion, the explosion should still be very respectable.
The Blastshell does require a specially configured Concussive Fireball (Blastball), yes, but considering the ease with which we created the Blastball and Flare, something like this should be extremely easy.
A requirement for this design was configuring our circuits to be able to resist Moskurg anti-magic. It was discovered that if we "insulate" the circuits with a variant of Crystal, then magic can't "leak" outside of the circuits due to anti-magic. Therefore, the circuits can continue operating even in anti-magic fields. The shell won't suddenly become a dud if under the influence of anti-magic.
We hope to apply this anti-magic resistance to as many circuits as possible, starting with that of the AS-R1.
The Blastshell is to be created for two cannons in particular: The AS-HAC-1 and the AS-HA1. After this is done, variants can be made for other cannons and maybe our Mathemagicians can even look into the possibility of a less-explosive-but-still-explosive variant for the AS-R1.
The result is devastating. An explosive shell that can spread devastation over a large area. It can also be used to break through Moskurg's armor present on their airships and boats, instead of the shell merely ricocheting or shattering against the armor.
TL;DR: An explosive shell that's resistant to anti-magic. And if possible, we should apply the anti-magic resistance to the AS-R1 + all our other circuit-based designs.
Then we can revise the Magegems to be more powerful, making the AS-R1 just Expensive for Mundane soldiers and increasing the explosive power of the Blastshell.
@Kadzar: Basically, yeah - increase the power of the gems so New AAA = Old AA, New AA = Old A, etc.; this serves the same purpose as cheapening the Magegems (we can use Expensive AAs for the AS-R1 instead of Very Expensive As) while also increasing their max power. Whereas cheapening them isn't as effective since the AAA size is already Cheap.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 17, 2017, 04:29:27 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 17, 2017, 04:36:53 pm
If Moskurg didn't do much this turn then we don't really need him anywhere. But if Moskurg did more than us I'd really rather not lose any more land in the mountains.
The resource bonus isn't great but I'd also really like it for Moskurg to never get a metal bonus.
Maybe the Jungle could work for Myark?
From Discord: Send him to the Northern sea.
Quote
MYARK
3 - Send to Northern Sea: Chiefwaffles, helmacon, Andrea
Post by: RAM on June 17, 2017, 05:16:23 pm
I'll post my own version of Gyrocopter, of the "fantasy helicopter" kind (as in, it can hover)I feel that the barrel design would not work very well. It is basically a directed explosion, which would be unstable and suffer from negative pressure after exploding. This would be made much worse if, as I suspect, magical pressure does not create material. So it would actually create a massive vacuum at ground zero. There would still be propulsion, much of the vacuum wold be filed from the sidez while most of the exposion would be directed backwards, but it'll be crazy rough. Additionally, the efficiency would be dependant upon how far the burst makes it from the tube, so you would want larger explosions, and thus heavier tubes, and thus more weight to lift. I would suggest using my pulse-jets instead as they are basically the same thing but with a consistent direction of flow and less pressure requirements... They are also easy to make aside from the repeating spell, which you can get from continuous fog...
...
Our blastball offers us a solution: at the end of each blade of the rotor, there is a barrel open on one side. inside the barrel, a blastball is cast, many times.
...
I still need to think of the best way to direct it
...
Input is welcome.
I do not think that directing it would be a problem if the wingtips are sorted. It should be easy enough to replicate the wing-jets to get the main thrust along the centre of gravity and a separate steering jet on a swivel... It is a lot of extra thrusters but it ought to be light enough if they are directly powered by magic... Of course, pulse-jets would be a little awkward because they need air intake, but that should be possible to deal with.
Alas, I feel that the kegger air-control is too great for us to attack them. The helicopters could be flipped using wind and would need lightning rods that don't melt. We would be better off denying the air entirely, which would be easy if we just built the Celestedemorte or tower of unmagic. Finally, I think that we should build naval propellors before we try air propellors, it just seems like too much of a leap. Or we cold build wings, I mean, we have hawks already, they have wings, may as well build pulsejet-aeroplanes instead of helicopters if we want things that have actually been observed.
Post by: andrea on June 17, 2017, 05:47:53 pm
That said, it will probably take a while to get to flying machines anyway, who knows what will happen by the time we get there.
Post by: RAM on June 17, 2017, 07:59:00 pm
In each of these narrow points there is a cone-shaped plug to seal it.
The plugs are kept loose inside cages that are affixed to the tube to keep the plugs in position and oriented to seal the narrow points without blocking the airflow much.
On plug(interior) is in the space between the two narrow points, one(exterior) is outside of that space.
When the explosion happens, both plugs are pushed out. The interior plug is pushed into the narrow point and seals it, while the exterior plug is pushed away from its narrow point and stopped by its cage, which opens that narrow point fully and allows the air out.
When the explosion recedes, both plugs are pulled in. The interior opens and the exterior seals.
In this way, which of the narrow "necks" of the tube is sealed alternates based upon whether the interior is exploding or imploding. Thus it alternates between pushing out of one opening and pulling into the other.
That said, it is just a shaped tube with a couple of loose bits and repeated explosions. With our crystal shaping and explosion magic and repeat-casting fogs and curuits it should be very easy to make. The only difficult part is tweaking the relatively constant continuous fog into a rapid repetition(which I suspect that it already is) and apply it to the explosions. But we got the continuous spell from tweaking an existing spell already, so doing a very similar thing to a different spell should be relatively easy. I really have a hard time figuring out where extra difficulty could come from.
Add to that that it is pretty plausible too. The idea of using explosions as propulsion is fairly plausble. After that it is just a matter of realising that it pulls after it pushes, so you need to force it to pull from somewhere other than where it pushes. This gives you the idea of a manual plug, and seeing how it automatically pushes the plug out, it is not far to realise that you can use that force to make the plug automatic. I half-think that we could make the thing from an order if we were willing to force an apprentice to keep tapping the thing for a rate of explosion that is too low to get the most out of it.
...
Apparently real pulse-jets don't bother putting valves on the outflow.I guess the blockage would be too much and the outflow is strong enough to impose the suction ipon the newly opened vent rather than the massive opening that never closes. Also they are kind of weak compared to jet engines, ore even piston engine, maybe, I didn;t look too closely, but they were enough to keep V-1 cruise missiles airborne for an hour after being launched by a catapult, so they can fly while lugging a massive bomb with tiny wings around at least...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsejet
It is also interesting to note the pulse jets that have no valves, just two holes of different size and length, but I can't think of a good reason why we would create those, and the vlaves should be pretty easy.
Post by: andrea on June 18, 2017, 08:05:48 am
As for the outlet pipe I guess a combination of not wanting to interrupt the flow, and the fact that at speed, in the unlet pipe you get fast air slamming on the inlet trying to get it, while on the tail pipe you have air moving away. Even without valve, you are getting far more fresh air than you get exhaust gas.
Post by: RAM on June 18, 2017, 04:09:04 pm
Post by: andrea on June 18, 2017, 04:35:35 pm
A reed valve is just a thin sheet of flexible material over an hole. when pressure differential is high enough, it bends opening the hole. Can't get any simpler than this.
and yes, it would work on water. Was there nay doubt about that? it is not like we are actually combusting anything.
Post by: RAM on June 18, 2017, 06:20:39 pm
And because there are no moving parts, it is very very quiet, because that matches a quote from The Hunt for Red October and thus is true. And as everyone knows the distinctive ear-shattering sound of pulse-ets is completely silent. So no moving parts means silent engine because magic! I think we can pull that off if we just ignorant furiously enough!
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 18, 2017, 06:40:54 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 18, 2017, 07:06:19 pm
We have an advantage here that real life doesn't - crystal (and y'know, all that other magic stuff). Crystal should allow us to do something like this.
It'd be great if we could mostly unify our land and sea designs. An amphibious fighting vehicle equipped with a HC1-E and AS-HAC-1 and capable of holding ~8 people could be a great asset in all theatres. At sea, it can serve as a fast attack craft with the additional benefit of being 100% enclosed and thus secure from pretty much any Moskurger attack. At land, it can provide close combat support with our troops and bring troops to the battlefield safely, unharassed by lightning or ballistae fire. It'd also be the first truly mobile weapons platform we'd have.
Alternatively, an idea which I really like is completely investing in our combat armor. After we upgrade the power of Magegems, we can create a Combat Armor design with an integrated magegem battery and magically assisted movement, letting us essentially create powered armor. We can add things like a rocket jump/jetpack based on Blastballs. (The first version would just be like an assisted jump due to power constraints, but later we could maybe do something like a full-on jetpack.)
Powerful combat armor could really help us here, as it applies to every theatre. Our sailors will be more secure on deck and our soldiers will become more relevant and powerful on land.
Post by: Andres on June 18, 2017, 07:55:11 pm
Power armour isn't useless, but it is questionable. The point of power armour is to make it possible to move in armour that is normally too heavy to move in. With crystal, we can just revise it to be more protective without increasing weight.
Jump packs/flight packs are a good idea.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 18, 2017, 08:02:06 pm
An alternative to jump/flight packs is summoning temporary wings on our soldiers with (single-use) Magegem-powered wands/items. Plays into our life/summoning magic and can be designed based on one or two Magegems in its design, versus the definitely-energy-intensive blastball alternative. But we also arguably have more experience to use for a blastball-related method. We'll see.
The idea of an amphibious vehicle isn't islands or shore invasions. When I say "amphibious vehicle", I'm not talking about some kind of landing craft or a tank that can cross rivers. I'm talking about a vehicle that can be used effectively at sea and at land. So this theoretical amphibious vehicle would be useful as a fast attack craft at sea, and for transporting soldiers and providing close fire support at land. This may not be a realistic or great idea in real life, but real life didn't have magic and Crystal in the 10th century.
Post by: Andres on June 18, 2017, 08:12:55 pm
An alternative to jump/flight packs is summoning temporary wings on our soldiers with (single-use) Magegem-powered wands/items. Plays into our life/summoning magic and can be designed based on one or two Magegems in its design, versus the definitely-energy-intensive blastball alternative. But we also arguably have more experience to use for a blastball-related method. We'll see.I think we should go with the flight packs. They would be using a miniaturised version of our future Kinetic Drive Engines which makes them easier to develop. Angel wings would not be as easy to develop.
The energy consumption of the KDE is a non-issue. One of the advantages of our circuits is that continuous effects remain indefinitely, without consuming any extra energy. Thus, a flight pack can be used for a theoretically unlimited amount of time while angel wings would only last for a limited amount of time.
Finally, since KDEs would be made out of crystal, they'd be more durable than wings. A small concern but a concern nonetheless.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on June 18, 2017, 08:53:53 pm
I am not convinced that wings would be more efficient. They still require energy to function, unless they don't but then that applies to anything. We know that fireballs are powerful and can be miniaturised. A decent pulse-jet probably produces a more focused air-flow so it comes down to efficient lift generation. If we produce a pressure-differential wing then it would be equally effective flapping or fixed, so it is just a matter of how to get air-flow over it. I rather suspect that fixed hawk-wings with a pulse-jet would be more efficient than flexible hawk-wings. Still, there is the issue that flexible wings would use muscular energy rather than magical energy, but the wings or airflow would need to be huge to account for the difference in weight between hawk and soldier, so the energy to flex them would be similarly huge and it is unlikely that they could be maintained for more than a couple of minutes before exhaustion sets in.An alternative to jump/flight packs is summoning temporary wings on our soldiers with (single-use) Magegem-powered wands/items. Plays into our life/summoning magic and can be designed based on one or two Magegems in its design, versus the definitely-energy-intensive blastball alternative. But we also arguably have more experience to use for a blastball-related method. We'll see.I think we should go with the flight packs. They would be using a miniaturised version of our future Kinetic Drive Engines which makes them easier to develop. Angel wings would not be as easy to develop.
The energy consumption of the KDE is a non-issue. One of the advantages of our circuits is that continuous effects remain indefinitely, without consuming any extra energy. Thus, a flight pack can be used for a theoretically unlimited amount of time while angel wings would only last for a limited amount of time.
Finally, since KDEs would be made out of crystal, they'd be more durable than wings. A small concern but a concern nonetheless.
Glory to Arstotzka.
As for the circuits? The initial impression that I got from their initial description left me convinced that they resulted in a perpetual spell, no further input required. Since then it has, I believe, been made very clear that they continue to require magic to be inserted. I am not entirely clear how they were initially useful, I think maybe they were just a bit of an autopilot so that the wizard operating them could take a break for a few seconds to eat a cookie and then continue with the spell without having to recast it from scratch. It probably lets a wizard cast a fireball once in a while while also maintaining a steam engine... Still not so helpful. I believe that constant magic is required even with circuits.
Although I still say that an air-force is a bad idea right now. We can fight their wind magic, easily, with a little convection. We could try to freeze everything above about 20 metres up and let them see how good their metal protects them when the surrounding air is at -40 and their every wind spell for mobility causes all their warm air to vacate the premises. I recall hearing that we were holding back because someone needed to survive to maintain the thing, but if we only did it to higher altitudes, and convection has been inconveniently absent so far. Regardless, they have lightning and wind, opposing these magics directly would be plausible, trying to confront them aerially in the midst of them would be less so. I feel that a low velocity winged-flier would be practically useless at this point, at least in something as large and unwieldy as a soldier. The jet-propelled version would be less agile, and steering would be a proper pain, but it would be harder to aim at and more resistant to buffeting, so I would be less hesitant towards it given the circumstances.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 18, 2017, 09:03:18 pm
We won't be able to hard counter their air force. We can beat them in the airgame via things like anti-air or our own air force, but hard countering just isn't going to be possible. At most, we can waste a design on countering them for one turn and nothing else until they spend a revision or part of a design to undo our counter.
And Evicted just said this on the discord regarding what the difference between a circuit's enchantments and actual spells:
Quote from: evictedSaint
It's the difference between "Passive" and "active" spells. passive is stuff like "stay this temperature" and active is stuff like "activate a fireball".
the circuit doesn't require a mage for use
Post by: RAM on June 18, 2017, 09:13:56 pm
Quote from: evictedSaint
It's the difference between "Passive" and "active" spells. passive is stuff like "stay this temperature" and active is stuff like "activate a fireball".It may just be me, but that seems horribly ambiguous in context. Not requiring a mage is different from not requiring an ongoing source of new magic. And we are using circuits to produce active spells, so... I really don't see how that statement could confirm anything.
the circuit doesn't require a mage for use
And jetpacks against air seems like an airforce to me. They are going to be working on increasing their altitude if hey have any sense at all, it just buffs everything they do and they already have the temperature-controlled metal to make their pressurised cabins out of... They are probably discussing how to justify "wind magic" being "summon breathable air" right now... It would be like a beach-landing. A crowd of infantry charging against gravity as deadly air-swells knock them around and fire-pots burst around them and lightning shreds through the soldiers either side of them. And all this time they are completely out in the open praying that they can rach the cover of an enemy airship before the magic holding them aloft expires. I think that the helicarrier is more plausible, and the helicarrier would be cut in half after a half-hour of bombardment...
Post by: helmacon on June 18, 2017, 09:37:48 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 18, 2017, 09:40:57 pm
When did they get temperature controlled metal? That would give them a hard counter to our frost towers too..
The metal maintains a constant temp, but the people inside and air outside can still be effected. So our fireball still burns their eyes and joints and the chill seeps past.
Plus now we have hand cannons so we can just punch through it.
Post by: RAM on June 18, 2017, 10:35:15 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on June 18, 2017, 11:45:55 pm
Post by: Andres on June 18, 2017, 11:48:50 pm
Quote
ORDERS
1 - Deploy the R1: Andres
MYARK
1 - Jungle: Andres
He won't be able to do enough to turn the battle in the seas. He failed to do so last time we sent him and things have only gotten worse there. In the Jungle there's at least a chance he could force Moskurg back.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on June 19, 2017, 12:24:06 am
Quote
ORDERSWe lost there last time, not sure if anything has changed, but at least they don't have a sea bonus. Of course, they can just counter with almond reeker...
1 - Deploy the R1: Andres
MYARK
1 - Jungle: Andres
1 - Moutain: RAM
Post by: evictedSaint on June 19, 2017, 01:07:59 am
This year sees Arstotzka get a new weapon they've been working on finally on the field. Known as the "AS-R1", it is simply a small cannon that a man could hold in his hands. Using mainly crystal for construction, a long, thing metal handle is used to activate magic stored in the attached A-level magegems, activating a magical circuit that fires off a new type of fireball in the combustion chamber, which then propels a small shell out of the barrel. Braced against the mages shoulder, it can reach out to Extreme Range, but struggles to hit a target at Medium Range. Still, it's merely Expensive, smaller than a longbow, has a higher velocity, and can be used by a non-mage for an extra expense level. It is their first foray into magical spells made usable by non-mages, and yet another step into the world of firearms. Due to advancements made in the development of this weapon, their cannons no longer require water to operate, lessening the load on their crystal train and increasing the rate of fire of all their weapons.
Additionally, they unveil the next evolution of their armor: Combat Armor. Constructed entirely of crystal and with a more robust degree of protection, it features a crystal faceplate. Without eyeslits or gaps in the armor, it's virtually impenetrable to arrows. It comes with a steel antenna that runs from the head down to the right foot, in order to route electricity away from the more vulnerable internal bits of the soldier wearing the armor. The antenna is destroyed after being struck, but it means the soldier can at least survive being hit once now. Antennas are relatively cheap, so six are put on every Crystalclad ship.
Moskurg has surprised everyone by diversifying their weather magic with yet more weather magic. The next natural evolution of their wind spell, the "Zephyric Destruction" is a powerful tornado that can be cast by a single mage. Able to reach Extreme Range, the tornado has been amped up in power through a revision and is alarmingly lethal in areas with high amounts of debris - such as the jungle, taiga, and to a lesser extent the Mountains. It's not very lethal in the plains or desert unless it directly passes over an enemy soldier, but could possibly capsize a ship on the ocean. Due to the high amounts of wind involved, this spell can't be cast by mages flying on the airships or carpets.
They also tweak their Adamantium to give themselves greater control over the pre-set temperature of the conjured metal. Able to be mass-set by a mage over an hour-long ritual, their armor now promises to keep the soldiers warm in cold weather. Only the severely negligent have a reason to freeze to death any more - the metal can be set from freezing to boiling temperatures, permanently. They make a set of cook-ware for their camp cooks, much to the common soldiers happiness.
Arstotzkas combat armor shows mixed results in the jungle.
No more maneuverable than their previous plate armor, it is at least a bit lighter. Combat once again sees the resurgence of men slogging across no-man's land to meet the enemy in combat. The lightning rods tend to explode into a fine, super-heated vapor when struck, often knocking over the soldier hit. Much to Moskurgs surprise, these men will get up and continue on, with rarely more damage than a crack along the armor where the antenna had been attached. When meeting with Moskurg troops they once again have the upper hand, as their clear-crystal visors give a greater degree of visibility than their previous eye slits. Still, no soldier survives getting struck by lightning twice, and Firestorm grenades prove to be just as effective as before. Combat Armor clad soldiers either suffocate or boil to death when engulfed in the sticky flame, and out-dated ballistas (though fewer in number due to Moskurgs strained supply of apprentices and wizards) can still punch a bolt straight through the breastplate of the armor. Regardless of the short-comings of the armor, it proves to give them a slightly better edge at both reaching their enemy and for actually winning in the melee.
More useful is Arstotzka's new waterless cannons. Without needing to wait for water to be supplied, a cannon can be reloaded much more quickly with no reduction of firing velocity. This helps bump the lethality of their HA1 despite having non-explosive ammo, but more importantly benefits their HAC-1 anti-air cannon. An apprentice can now get more shots out per minute, which tends to cut down War Pegasi riders when multiple cannons are firing at once.
Moskurgs new tornado manages to pick up the slack where their lightning left off, however; in the jungle, a common branch on the ground becomes a ballista bolt when picked up by the Zephyr. Charges are often proceeded by multiple tornadoes spinning across the ground towards Arstotzkan lines. It manages to also make HA1 rounds more inaccurate, if they pass through or near the tornado, but accuracy has never been a major issue as their volume of fire isn't diminished. The new spell proves to be much more effective than their now-nerfed lightning, but unfortunately must be cast by mages on the ground as the turbulent air is not conducive to fliers. The Airship is usually fine, though, able to stand off at a distance and continue picking at Arstotzkan lines with lightning and ballista shots even during the tornado rampage.
Arstotzka's new rifle sees an odd use; though envisioned as a weapon that all their troops will one day wield, it is currently used exclusively by their Mage-Hunters for assassinations and wizards for anti-air emergencies. Mage-Hunters typically crawl through no-mans land on their bellies, both their crystal armor and crystal weapons rubbed with tar, dirt, and grass to help stay out of sight of Moskurg air patrols. Once in range, the rifle shows its superiority over the long-bow through one simple fact: you don't need to stand up to use it. Mage-Hunters get as close to Medium Range as they can, take careful aim, and simultaneously take out commanders and wizards in a single volley. With no steam cloud or movement required on their part, their often unseen and unheard beyond the report of their rifles. The bullets even punch through pavise shields with ease. Getting back is much harder, however - Moskurg air patrols are very thorough, and once caught the elite troops are often doused with firestorm shells and die a horrible, messy death. Still, the assassinations take their toll.
The advantage is still in Moskurgs favor, however, as their control of the adjacent oceans means they get to choose when and where they can launch surprise invasions against Arstotzkan lines. Able to stay out of range of HA1 artillery and move faster than the troops on land, they often sneak behind Arstotzkan lines and wreak havoc. Supply lines suffer, and it's not uncommon for the Restless crystal train to not show up at all as the train tracks are an easy target for sabotage. The naval advantage makes a large difference here.
Though they're no longer immune to lightning, Arstotzkans soldiers at least now can survive a bit longer before death comes for them. Tornados have now overtaken lightning as the #1 cause of death for Arstotzkans, and though their assassinations are quite brutal on Moskurg wizards, commanders, and moral, Moskurgers are no longer freezing to death thanks to their heated armor. Charging across no-man's land is still pretty lethal for both sides despite their new armor, and though the HAC-1's can now fire more rapidly they still require time to reload. Moskurg manages to push Arstotzka back a section, though only barely and largely due to the destructive capabilities of their tornadoes when given plenty of debris to throw around and their naval advantage.
Moskurg gains a section of jungle.
In the mountains, Moskurgs tornadoes have a harder time.
Though they now have rocks and the occasional tree to throw at enemy troops, the uneven terrain makes controlling the tornado - or even keeping it alive - quite difficult. The terrain benefits Arstotzkan snipers here even more, who occasionally even take shots of opportunity at the low-flying carpet bombers overhead. Arstotzka still has the artillery advantage here in the mountains, and with Moskurgs diminished carpet bombing, lightning, and tornados, they are eventually forced to concede the mountains.
Arstotzka gains control of the mountains. If they hold it for a turn, they gain the metal bonus.
With less debris in the plains, the tornadoes generally require going directly over enemy troops to inflict casualties. Likewise, Arstotzka's Mage-Hunters have a harder time sneaking close to enemy lines in the wide open, flat terrain. The increased rate of fire of Arstotzka's HA1's has started to put strain on their supply lines, even despite the fact they no longer require water. This is exacerbated by al-Mutriqa personally leading raids on enemy supply lines, leading the way with his Wand of Heroism and Black Phantoms entourage. When the cannons fall silent, it's often due to a train being blasted while carrying a supply of shells. Normally when this happens, Arstotzka can simply out-wait their opponents, knowing they'll all eventually die of the cold, which is not the case any more. Battles must be fought and won, and on the rare occasions troops actually meet it's Arstotzka who has the upper hand, despite Moskurg dropping firestorm shells and blasting about with their Spear of Allah. Their new R1 rifle can punch through Moskurg Elite Lamellar Armor with ease, thanks to the large bullet and the relatively close range it's used at. It suffers due to the fact that the rifle can be shut off by Moskurgs anti-magic fields, though there's fewer now due to their mages being used elsewhere and getting assassinated by Mage-Hunters.
Ultimately, the fact that lightning can't kill with every strike (though it still has a profound effect if a mage uses the Spear on the same target twice), the fact that the tornado has less debris to pick up, and the fact that the increased fire rate of HAC-1's push raiding War Pegasi riders away means Moskurgs forces suffer. Likewise, HA1's suffering from al-Mutriqa's raids, the relatively little impact of the R1 in this theater, untouchable Airships standing off and plinking away at their lines, and the fact that their superior troops must stomp through killing fields before being able to kill their counterparts means that Arstotzka's forces suffer.
At the end of the day, it's Moskurgs ability to land troops behind Arstotzkan lines that gives them the advantage. Arstotzka might have been able to push them back, but without a way to stop incursions from the coast their lines are ragged and bent and they must concede anther section of plains to Moskurg.
Moskurg gains a section of the plains.
The lightning-rods and faster-firing HAC-1's prove to be game-changers on the open seas.
Moskurg was already struggling to sink the Crystalclad ships with their out-dated ballistas, relying heavily on lightning strikes and War Pegasi to keep the ships suppressed. The lightning rods do a good job of keeping the lightning from hitting troops immediately, buying time for the ships to either get out of range or shoot down the carpet-bomber casting the spell. The Alsamma Safina is still virtually immune to anything the ships down bellow can throw at it, standing out of range and spamming their accurate Spear of Allah until the lightning rods are gone or until the crew dies, but the Sirocco has a much harder time. Inferior to the the Crystalclad in both armor and weaponry, they're used exclusively to sink suppressed Crystalclads and to launch carpet-bombers. The sea is mostly a deadlock, but Myark manages to push the advantage in Arstotzka's favor. Surprisingly accurate with the R1, he excels at shooting down the fast-moving War Pegasi even at Long Range, and his Wand of True Light can make the weaker-hearted Moskurg sailors turn tail. The tornadoes are harder to use on the open sea, and though Moskurg manages to capsize a few Crystalclads it's not enough.
Arstotzka manages to push Moskurg out, reclaiming their northern seas - the balance of naval power has shifted towards Arstotzka once again.
Arstotzka regains control of the Northern Sea.
Research Credit!!!
It has come time for you heir to complete their education and move from an Apprentice-level mage to a Wizard-level mage. However, in order to "officially" receive the title of "Wizard" they must make some advancement in the field of magic. For many, this is a rather minute advancement; a slightly streamlined piece of magical circuitry, or a better interpretation of the Word of Allah. This task is known as a "Thesis", and your heir must go through the arduous task of researching and writing it.
Of course your heir will gain the title whether they are worthy or not; it would not do for the future leader of the kingdom to remain a lowly apprentice. That being said, they're actually quite magically skilled so failure on their part is unlikely, but still your King is worried. There are some who grumble that your heir is too frail to be a decent leader, and his fits of rage (learned from Myark) makes him rather unstable and unpredictable. Perhaps this Thesis is a chance to show dissenters (a group supporting the leader of a powerful clan, despite the fact that they've all pledged fealty to your current King) the legitimacy of your heir as the future King? He has asked you to guide young Bjorn with his research.
Whichever side writes a more competent Thesis for their heir will gain a Research Credit for the next turn (2 rolls for each Effectiveness, Cost, and Bugs, highest roll picked. Penalties and bonuses still apply to rolls). Limit 1 submission per person, limit 750 words per submission. Sides will vote on the Thesis to submit.
It is 941, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 941 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Behavior Rules. Please Read.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: RAM on June 19, 2017, 01:58:00 am
It has come to our attention that the Keggers are convinced of vile foreign influences upon our world granting them their perverse abilities to corrupt the natural forces of our world. While normally the Kegger mind is drowned to expiration in their insipid folly, this only proves that in this matter they are correct, for they most assuredly lack the intellect to comprehend the subtle energies that our mathemagicians have so cunningly refined. Knowing that our enemy is grasping at the power of these forces which so obviously harbour ill intent towards our world, and will most assuredly make prompt work of enslaving the weak minds of our enemies once their corruption has weakened this land to suit these inhuman malevolences' despicable tastes enough to exert their vile wills here. Thus falls upon us to end this threat before such monstrosities can gain footing.
Alas, no measure we know of can navigate beyond our ken, and no strike we know of can harm the place of magic's origin. We cannot enter the land of such terrors to best them upon their own lands. Yet confronting them is necessary. For while these horrors persist they shall simply wait until they spy yet more foolish and ignorant humans such as our stunted adversaries. And it is with fortune that I have realised the means by which we may face such things. We shall take to the fields with our weapons. With the magics that we have wrested from the incomprehensible and made our own. We shall pluck from the heavens the source of the enemy's perversion of reality and slay it upon the field of open battle. We shall continue to slay such monsters until none remain, and from the corpses of their faith we shall rip the Kegger will and break it!
Conjure Hexographic Origin of Magical Perversion
We construct a bunker of crystal, anchored deep into the earth, with a great rod of metal to channel from it the enemy's daggers. Within this structure shall be a ritual chamber, deep with circuits and protections. From within this chamber shall be forged a great spell of conjuration. It shall tear forth the first enemy magic to enter its reach, as the great charm bind the villains' disgusting powers of mind corruption. That thread of magic shall be pulled into the ritual and spun like yarn upon the wheel. We shall pull upon the revolting distortion until it pulls upon its most terrible source. Bringing that most terrible agency into the ritual's focus shall enact the ritual's completion. It shall enter the being into a pattern of conjuration, eneact it according to the manifest laws of our world, and incarnate it into a form that may be matched with the strength of our arms. We shall force it into our world and in doing so deprive the Kegger magic at its source. I know not the powers of such a thing, but I know that we have bested its will for as long as this conflict has lasted, and that with the same strength and conviction we shall surely best its person.
Summon the source of Moskurger magic. Possible effects:
Prevent the use of Moskurger magic for the duration of the event due to the lack of access to its source.
Summon a bighuge monster that must be slain, but summon it in front of a battery of cannons.
Slay said bighuge monster and demoralise Moskurg.
Find out that the bughuge monster was not slain, but merely weakened when its body was pummelled to death.
Find out that the bighuge monster is no longer an issue for the forseeable future, but that Moskurg is in collusion with a whole host of cosmic horrorterrors and thus we have to keep doing this over and over again.
Learn a whole lot about summoning things that we maybe ought not to.
Process:
Acquire enemy magical power: antimagic charms line of items. Upgraded to pull on a specific spell in a region, typically a tornado but wind used to move a carpet, mind-reading used on anyone who is not using a charm, it presumably happens... Magic used to detect ambushes, reciprocal traces from lucky strike... There gotta be something nearby.
Pull on magical power: This is a circular circuit, it works like a spinning wheel, or particle accelerator, or fishing reel... Circuits channel magic so reeling a spell in from its roots ought to be easy enough.
Summon whatever is at the other end: All of our actual starting spells and everything that was derived from such. Conjuration is a thing that we can do. Conjuring big things... well that is why we made this a big spell...
Killing it: We kill things good.
I humbly submit that better acronyms would be "S.I.N." or "F.U.N.!" but that my skills were too weak to get any further than "Summon Inimical"...
Quote
0 C.H.O.M.P. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7489122#msg7489122):
Post by: Andres on June 19, 2017, 02:05:20 am
Post by: helmacon on June 19, 2017, 06:01:42 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 19, 2017, 07:35:02 am
Future Revision: Combat Armor Air Recycling System
We have extensive experience in the control of air. Maybe not the movement of air like Moskurg, but air. Our Fireballs, after all, are really just summoning a special atmospheric mixture and "throwing" it at the enemy. And with all our experience in fireballs, this should be easy.
The Air Recycling System, or ARS, is a new system to be implemented in all Combat Armor. Making full use of circuits' abilities to keep enchantment going without extra power, the ARS doesn't require magical input. It has two functions:
1.) Temperature control. Our Magical Condensor is essentially a tiny climate control system for our magitech. We can simply make some cooling circuits which we've had extreme amounts of experience in - cannons, steam engines, and more - and add them to the Combat Armor via use of Scroll circuits. This will keep the occupant of Combat Armor at a set temperature regardless of what their surroundings are. Even if they're on fire.
2.) Atmospheric Control. Using the same philosophy of our fireballs, we create an enchantment to maintain air quality.
With these advancements, we can completely seal Combat Armor and allow its enchantments to provide the user with a neverending supply of fresh breathable air. Combat Armor occupants will be able to march underwater for virtually unlimited amounts of time, and will be able to be the recipients of direct firebomb hits and merely shrug off the fire from their climate-controlled atmospherically sealed armor.
TL;DR: Completely seal combat armor and give it atmospheric control, making soldiers completely invulnerable against fire and other environmental hazards. Also lets our soldiers do cool things like walk underwater.
EDIT: Also, this paves the way for other completely-sealed designs, such as submarines! And experience in air control, while small, could prove useful in other areas perhaps.
Anyways, now for explosive ammunition. Here's a quote from Evicted regarding our cannons and their airships, which are even more troublesome now:
Quote from: evictedSaint
Range. HC1-E's can't reach at 45 degrees like the HA1 can, but could maybe penetrate if they hit it at 60-75 degrees up? They lose a LOT of power travelling straight up.So, what if we increased the range of our cannons as well? So the HA1 could hit their airships as far away as possible, preventing that them from "plinking and chipping at [our] forces non-stop".
None of your cannons can hit it when it's at stand-off range, though, and it can plink and chip at your forces non-stop, especially with lightning.
EDIT: That and if/when we increase the firing angles of our cannons, the HC1-E could still do damage when firing nearly straight up.
I'm giving two explosive ammunition designs here. Variant A adds rocket propulsion to our shells, increasing range. Variant B adds anti-magic resistance to its circuits. +Range will upgrade the range of every single cannon and increase impact velocity, making the HC1-E (and AS-HAC-1) more effective at armor piercing. AM Resistance can be applied to our other circuits, making our magitech function in AM fields.
Design: Blastshell [A: +Range]
The Blastshell is a shell powered by a continuous concussive blast. The Blastball variant propelling it is powered by an AA Magegem; this may not be the optimum amount of power for a true Blastball, but the Blastball only needs to add to its velocity. Our Mathemagicians are calling this "rocket propulsion". We've made a rocket-propelled shell.
This method of propulsion should greatly increase the range of any cannons using it to levels we haven't ever seen before. HC1-Es will be able to fire at Beyond LoS range, HA1s will be able to fire even further, and who knows about the AS-HAC-1s.
But that's not it. Two AA Magegems inside the shell power an additional Blastball variant. On impact, a circuit connected to the AA Magegems will activate, activating the "stored' Blastball. The entire shell will detonate in a huge explosion that also includes lethal shrapnel from its broken-apart crystal exterior. The Blastball won't be "fully powered", but as this variant doesn't require its own propulsion and dedicates more magical energy to pressure rather than heat like the Fireball, the explosion from a landing Blastshell should be just as, if not more, devastating compared to a PSF.
The most important shell caliber is one fitting the HA1. The second-most important is the AS-HAC-1, the third the HC1-E, and finally, if our Mathemagicians are feeling unusually lucky, some work into Blastshells for the AS-R1 would be nice as the lowest priority aspect of this design.
TL;DR: A crystal shell with constant Blastball rocket propulsion, enhancing the range and impact velocity of any cannon with it loaded. Upon impact it breaks apart with another Blastball easily blowing apart the crystal shell in an explosive impact. 1x AA Magegem powers propulsion (it's steady and low-powered as it just assists range+velocity) and 2x AA Magegems power as big of a blastball as is possible for detonation. Uses Crystalworks bonus.
Blastball Propulsion - Use a constant blastball to assist in the propulsion of the shell. This should be very easy as we already have experience in constant fireballs (Firewall) and can very easily make modifications to Blastballs and Fireballs. Powered by 1x AA Magegem, which would mean that a proper Blastball would be hard, but with the use of circuits + the fact that this is only assisting range makes it viable.
Blastball Detonation - Use 2x AA Magegems to power a Blastball detonation on impact. Priority here is getting the Blastball to fit the 2x AA Magegems, not the other way around. The Blastball may be weaker than normal, but fireball modification is extremely easily and we can always upgrade Magegems later. That and even a weaker-than-normal explosion would be great, as a PSF (which wastes energy on heat) can wipe out squadrons. Should be pretty easy.
Expense - Hopefully cheap or expensive. Circuits/scrolls are cheap, AA Magegems are Expensive, the Crystal shell gets the Crystalworks bonus, etc.
Difficulty - The Blastshell is mostly just an application of 3x AA Magegems and some circuitry for modified Blastballs. We have extreme experience with modifying Fireballs - it should be as easy as breathing. And the Magegems are things we've already made and can just throw in without a second thought.
Design: Blastshell [B: AM Resistance]
The Blastshell is an all-crystal shell. Inside it are two AA-size magegems and some circuitry. The circuitry is set to create a Blastball configured for the 2x AA gems when sufficient pressure is applied to the tip of the shell, such as an impact with the target.
When the Blastshell hits it target, the circuit triggers, the Blastball is created, and the shell explodes with it. Lethal crystal shrapnel is sent out everywhere as the (relatively) brittle crystal shell breaks apart. The actual Blastball has a wide area of effect itself, and will devastate the surroundings far more effectively than a fireball wasting energy on heat as well as expansion.
The 2x AA Magegems means the Blastball isn't as effective as it could be, but without wasting energy on propulsion, the explosion should still be very respectable.
The Blastshell does require a specially configured Concussive Fireball (Blastball), yes, but considering the ease with which we created the Blastball and Flare, something like this should be extremely easy.
A requirement for this design was configuring our circuits to be able to resist Moskurg anti-magic. It was discovered that if we "insulate" the circuits with a variant of Crystal, then magic can't "leak" outside of the circuits due to anti-magic. Therefore, the circuits can continue operating even in anti-magic fields. The shell won't suddenly become a dud if under the influence of anti-magic.
We hope to apply this anti-magic resistance to as many circuits as possible, starting with that of the AS-R1.
The Blastshell is to be created for two cannons in particular: The AS-HAC-1 and the AS-HA1. After this is done, variants can be made for other cannons and maybe our Mathemagicians can even look into the possibility of a less-explosive-but-still-explosive variant for the AS-R1.
The result is devastating. An explosive shell that can spread devastation over a large area. It can also be used to break through Moskurg's armor present on their airships and boats, instead of the shell merely ricocheting or shattering against the armor.
TL;DR: A crystal explosive shell that's resistant to anti-magic. And if possible, we should apply the anti-magic resistance to the AS-R1 + all our other circuit-based designs. Explosion is a Blastball easily breaking apart crystal shell; Blastball is as big as 2x AA Magegems can power. Uses Crystalworks bonus.
Quote
0 - C.H.O.M.P. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7489122#msg7489122):
1 - Blastshell [A: +Range] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7489260#msg7489260): Chiefwaffles
1 - Blastshell [B: AM Resistance] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7489260#msg7489260): Chiefwaffles
Post by: helmacon on June 19, 2017, 08:49:29 am
In use, they would extend the effective range of our rifles, allowing us to use them outside of their anti magic. Scopes would also let us track moving aerial targets with much more accuracy, to take down carpet riders.They would help coordinate and spot for our artillery, so no more people are lost or tired up as spotters. That's more mages with rifles and on cannons. They would help us immensely at sea, letting us hit them at our full artillery range, and coordinating attacks. With our faster ships and longer range, we would never even have to engage them directly. I envision a highly coordinated navy, where we shell them from afar, they give chase, and we pull back before they can engage. Then another ship pulls in and starts shelling them from another direction. Let's not forget about their general use in scouting either. Just being able to observe enemy troop moment that much better is extremely valuable on its own.
In production, we already have clear Crystal from the armor, and lots of experience working with Crystal in general. The design is just tweaking the refraction bits, so it should be almost trivially easy. Cost wise, we have the bonus from the Crystal works, and it's a relatively simple thing in the first place. I would be surprised if they were anything other than cheap.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 19, 2017, 09:02:47 am
Future Revision: Induced Crystal Optics
We have experience in adjusting the way light flows through crystal. The ease in which we created Combat Armor's crystal faceplate is evidence of this. If we can
This project is revising Crystal Glass - Reactive Crystal Glass. When exposed to a very light and precise magical current, Crystal Glass can change forms into a new form of Crystal Glass, "Magnifying Crystal Glass," which doesn't just allow light through, but amplifies it. Distant targets will appear like they're a few steps away. One could see the intricate details of an object miles away that they wouldn't even be able to notice with just their bare sight.
We could just make a new item with this new form of Magnifying Crystal Glass to serve our needs, but that's not enough. We already easily know how to flawlessly incorporate Crystal Glass into our Combat Armor, so let's do it with this new item. Reactive Crystal Glass is used to make up the faceplate. Normally, this doesn't make a difference for the soldiers, but we also include an AAA Magegem embedded in the helmet. When the soldier applies pressure to the AAA Magegem, they connect it to a cheap circuit which sends a tiny amount of energy through the faceplate, turning it into Magnifying Crystal Glass. With another press of the Magegem, the faceplate is turned back into regular Crystal Glass. Given that only mild amounts of energy are needed, and it's a one-time power consumption, the AAA Magegem can last for months before running out of power and can be easily replaced or recharged.
This allows any soldier in Combat Armor to easily manify distant targets. Artillery operators will be able to spot targets themselves and flares will only be needed if the target is obscured by some huge thing. At sea, our Crystalclads will be able to equip HA1s anad make use of the increased range as the sailors will be able to easily spot distant targets. Independent squads can make out distant targets. Users of the AS-R1, AS-HAC-1, and bows can easily spot targets themselves without distracting themselves from aiming their weapon. And much, much more.
Reactive Crystal Glass should be able to be rolled out to all Combat Armor, but if our Mathemagicians fail and it's not Cheap, then it shall be rolled out to officers first, artillery operators second, snipers third, and everyone else fourth.
TL;DR: Allow our Combat Armor's faceplate to have a toggleable mode where it turns into basically a giant spyglass. Sure, this may not be easily possible in real life, but we're drawing the magnification from a special kind of magic crystal, not like the real-life methods for spyglasses. This should be easy because we already modified the way light interacts with Crystal in the Combat Armor designed; all we need to do is modify it a bit more.
EDIT: I would like to point out that optics would not increase the range of our rifles. The problem is inaccuracy at longer ranges - you can aim the rifle somewhere with perfect precision, but at long ranges the bullet just won't end up where you want it to.
Post by: Gwolfski on June 19, 2017, 10:11:33 am
Post by: andrea on June 19, 2017, 11:56:15 am
[...]They would help us immensely at sea, letting us hit them at our full artillery range, and coordinating attacks. With our faster ships and longer range, we would never even have to engage them directly. [...]Our problem at sea is range, not effective range. Cannons won't be able to shoot farther with more power by mounting an optic, therefore we will still be unable to hit their airships.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 19, 2017, 11:58:54 am
Our Crystalclads can mount HA1s, but at the moment they don't due to the fact that they can't fire beyond the LoS. At land, we solve that problem with flares. At sea, our flares aren't as useful.
Post by: andrea on June 19, 2017, 12:14:33 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 19, 2017, 01:08:23 pm
So far I can think of:
- Aethergem - That self-recharging Magegem I talked about a while back.
- Lifegem - We can create (semi-?)intelligent life inside a Magegem to make artificial intelligence. Can be used to make fully autonomous designs, AI assistants/helpers (think Halo & Cortana) and maybe wireless communication between Lifegems.
- Bioaulos - Basically artificial muscles. Can be used for power armor, SPIDER TANKS, MECHS, other advanced forms of movement and lots of just movement things in general, and if we do Lifegems we can use Bioaulos to allow autonomous movement.
I have a thesis ready for the Aethergem and will post it after the revision phase for security reasons. Though I'm fine with showing it to others via any other means, such as PM or Discord. The Lifegem seems equally interesting, but not as immediately useful, as the Aethergem, and Bioaulos kind of seems like it'd be a bit more suited for a design than the other two possibilities.[/list]
Post by: andrea on June 19, 2017, 01:22:44 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 19, 2017, 01:25:49 pm
It's unlikely, but I'd rather keep the chance of that happening at zero.
Post by: Andres on June 19, 2017, 03:00:32 pm
The next step in the crystalclad design. The CC40 is bigger, where the SPB2 was large enough to fit 3 HEC-1s, the CC40 can fit 6. Rather than them being equipped with 6 HEC-1s, however, part of the available space is used for holding the full size of a HA1, modified to allow for 90 degrees firing with the aim of being able to hit Moskurg's airships. When not targeting their airships, the HA1s can instead targets their Siroccos.
The ship is not powered by a steam engine as the previous SPB2 or the Fog-of-War. Instead it's powered by a Kinetic Drive Engine - a new, smaller, more powerful engine. It uses an altered form of the Blastball, one that constantly (rather than briefly) exudes pressure and does so in a single direction rather than all directions. The new design also promises to be more energy-efficient (due to the lack of waste heat and running the PSF's energy through a middleman in the form of water) and require a shorter start-up time. The engine will power a screw propeller rather than paddle propellers, making the ship faster and less vulnerable to damage. The engine and the propeller will of course be made of crystal.
Of particular note is the new canopy of the ship. Rather than the top of the ship being free to open air, a crystal roof now covers the sailors and cannons that are on the top deck, protecting them from enemy fire even as they are able to return fire with the ship's cannons.
An additional aim is to have the ship's circuits be immune to anti-magic.
The minor flaws of the SPB2 will also be ironed out. It will have no problems with its centre of gravity while its problem with slippery decks will be compensated for with handrails and floor grating.
Finally, transparent crystal will be included in the design to allow the crew to see outwards while still keeping them defended.
Quote
0 - C.H.O.M.P. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7489122#msg7489122):
1 - Blastshell [A: +Range] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7489260#msg7489260): Chiefwaffles
1 - Blastshell [B: AM Resistance] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7489260#msg7489260): Chiefwaffles
1 - AS-CC40 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7489582#msg7489582): Andres
I really wanted to do explosive ammunition this turn, but last turn has made it pretty clear how important the seas are. The biggest reason we lost was not for lack of explosive ammunition, it was because we were outmanoeuvred thanks to their ships. Moskurg may also see how we can't do jack against their airships and focus on making them do more damage, so being able to kill them before that happens is imperative.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 19, 2017, 03:09:43 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 19, 2017, 03:11:48 pm
Moskurg was already struggling to sink the Crystalclad ships with their out-dated ballistas, relying heavily on lightning strikes and War Pegasi to keep the ships suppressed. The lightning rods do a good job of keeping the lightning from hitting troops immediately, buying time for the ships to either get out of range or shoot down the carpet-bomber casting the spell. The Alsamma Safina is still virtually immune to anything the ships down bellow can throw at it, standing out of range and spamming their accurate Spear of Allah until the lightning rods are gone or until the crew dies, but the Sirocco has a much harder time. Inferior to the the Crystalclad in both armor and weaponry, they're used exclusively to sink suppressed Crystalclads and to launch carpet-bombers. The sea is mostly a deadlock, but Myark manages to push the advantage in Arstotzka's favor. Surprisingly accurate with the R1, he excels at shooting down the fast-moving War Pegasi even at Long Range, and his Wand of True Light can make the weaker-hearted Moskurg sailors turn tail. The tornadoes are harder to use on the open sea, and though Moskurg manages to capsize a few Crystalclads it's not enough.This is the report for the battle on the seas.
There is no mention of us getting outmaneuvered. Our ships are better than theirs in every way. At this point, our problem is solely our weaponry. The AS-HAC-1, while able to aim anywhere, can't effectively pierce the armor of their airships. Our HC1-Es can't aim at the airships. Their airships can stand out of range, but crystal optics can let us fit HA1s on our ships that can solve that problem, the A variant of the Blastshell can increase the range of our HC1-Es to deal with that, and even with the B variant without crystal optics, explosive ammunition would mean that when our ships do meet with their airships, we'd be able to do damage instead of just hoping we can spam enough AS-HAC-1 shots to do any damage whatsoever.
We need two things regarding the sea:
1.) The ability to shoot our weapons at their airships.
2.) The ability to have our weapons pierce their airships' armor.
The AS-CC40 doesn't solve any of that. Furthermore, it leaves us unimproved on land where we only advanced in one theatre. Without a practical design helping at land, we'll only lose further.
Also reminder that the Crystalclad can fit HA1s; they just don't equip them now because the expanded range isn't useful at sea where we can't use our flares.
Post by: andrea on June 19, 2017, 03:12:46 pm
If we make optics, we will probably be able to use the HA1 at sea, with greater chance of sinking enemies. It seems that it is not used so far simply because we have no spotting. From that point of view, explosive ammo and optics are also a good combo to boost the sea a bit.
edit: well, what waffles said.
Post by: RAM on June 19, 2017, 03:28:25 pm
So ballast, or partial-submarines(such as the early ironclad(Monitor was it?)) ought to counter tornadoes at sea. But they will probably just say "waterspout" and get a free pass...
Post by: Andres on June 19, 2017, 03:32:07 pm
There is no mention of us getting outmaneuvered.Not on sea, but on the ground through the sea.
We lost in the Jungle, we won in the Mountains, and we lost in the Plains.
In the Jungle:
The advantage is still in Moskurgs favor, however, as their control of the adjacent oceans means they get to choose when and where they can launch surprise invasions against Arstotzkan lines. Able to stay out of range of HA1 artillery and move faster than the troops on land, they often sneak behind Arstotzkan lines and wreak havoc. Supply lines suffer, and it's not uncommon for the Restless crystal train to not show up at all as the train tracks are an easy target for sabotage. The naval advantage makes a large difference here.In the Plains:
At the end of the day, it's Moskurgs ability to land troops behind Arstotzkan lines that gives them the advantage. Arstotzka might have been able to push them back, but without a way to stop incursions from the coast their lines are ragged and bent and they must concede anther section of plains to Moskurg.
We need two things regarding the sea:The CC40 solves the issue of our cannons not being able to hit their airship. Did you not read the part where the HA1 has an altered mounting that allows it to shoot at their airships? That mounting would allow us to aim at, hit, and destroy them. It would logically also find use on the ground to destroy their airships.
1.) The ability to shoot our weapons at their airships.
2.) The ability to have our weapons pierce their airships' armor.
The AS-CC40 doesn't solve any of that. Furthermore, it leaves us unimproved on land where we only advanced in one theatre. Without a practical design helping at land, we'll only lose further.
Also reminder that the Crystalclad can fit HA1s; they just don't equip them now because the expanded range isn't useful at sea where we can't use our flares.
Our ships are better than theirs in every way.The deciding factor everywhere we attack has been their naval advantage. Take that away and the war would've swung in our favour. Moskurg will recognise that and inevitably make improvements to their ships to keep their naval advantage, especially after seeing how well we did the last time. We need to ensure dominance or it won't matter what ground advantages we get this turn, their naval advantage would simply win them the battle again. Furthermore, a naval advantage on our side would itself give us an advantage on the ground, so not designing something to directly help us on the ground will still be of benefit.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: andrea on June 19, 2017, 03:36:45 pm
On sea our cannons are much more mobile, angle will be much less of a problem, if we can force them to try to close range.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 19, 2017, 03:57:25 pm
Spoiler: Image (click to show/hide)
So it turns out the problem is not optics or angling. It's mostly just range.
Hence I think the +Range Blastshell is the best choice now. Increased range is helpful just in general, it increases the range of every cannon, and it gives us explosive ammunition. Alternatively, we could do the AM Resistance one then upgrade the range of the HA1 in a revision, but that seems wasteful.
Post by: andrea on June 19, 2017, 03:59:26 pm
Quote
0 - C.H.O.M.P. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7489122#msg7489122):
2 - Blastshell [A: +Range] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7489260#msg7489260): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
1 - Blastshell [B: AM Resistance] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7489260#msg7489260): Chiefwaffles
Range it is.
Post by: RAM on June 19, 2017, 04:01:21 pm
Blah blah blah crystal lenses blah blah light magic from flares blah blah blah blah perfect-orientation because mathemagics makes "perfect" shapes possible blah blah blah circuits to summon additional focusing crystals for rangefinding...
Make a scope for our large guns that has constant lighting conditions when viewed through, has a tactile control panel for adjusting zoom and focus while being viewed through, and doesn't require any magic when just being looked through. If they can make temperature-controlled metal with pretty much no experience in temperature and metal, then we can make light-controlled viewers with light magic and crystal magic...
Make scopes for our largest guns, then spyglasses for infantry, then steadily smaller and simpler scopes for smaller cannons. Hey, lets go for broke and add holographic sights!
P.S.
My spell for summoning their god is a serious suggestion. I do not expect to kill it, but temporarily removing the source of their magic from the place from which it is providing their magic ought to kill off most of their air-force and we oughtto have the firepower to at least drive a deity back from whence it came provided that it has a physical form. And we DO have all the required technologies.
Post by: helmacon on June 19, 2017, 04:23:38 pm
Quote
My spell for summoning their god is a serious suggestion. I do not expect to kill it, but temporarily removing the source of their magic from the place from which it is providing their magic ought to kill off most of their air-force and we oughtto have the firepower to at least drive a deity back from whence it came provided that it has a physical form. And we DO have all the required technologies.I could see thus backfiring horribly. You summon God in the mountains! Moskurg has advanced 4 sections in the mountains.
More realistically though, do we have any evidence that a singular god deity is the source of their power? Seeing as our magic still works perfectly well, and they dount just roflestomp us because a literal god us on their side, I suspect it's not quite what they think it is.
My head cannon is that their "divine" magic is just tapping into the magic energy created by thousands of people focusing on a common belief.
Even people with only subconscious magical resonance can create ripples in the order of magic around them. Normally this is a completely inconsequential thing, but when near similar ripples, the effect is amplified. Amplify this effect by thousands of people, performing prayer at specific regular intervals, and the collective unconscious imposes a sort of pseudo structure in the local magical field that mirrors the commen beliefs of the people. Working with the structure of their own beliefs now, they can use it as a sort of code to interface directly with the raw magical binary, programming it to perform specific actions.
Hey, this might make a decent thesis actually. Beats my work in progress "aerial disbursement of anti magic shards under high wind speed conditions" paper thing.
Post by: andrea on June 19, 2017, 04:24:51 pm
Post by: Andres on June 19, 2017, 04:27:56 pm
Quote
0 - C.H.O.M.P. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7489122#msg7489122):
3 - Blastshell [A: +Range] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7489260#msg7489260): Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Andres
1 - Blastshell [B: AM Resistance] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7489260#msg7489260): Chiefwaffles
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on June 19, 2017, 04:30:31 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 19, 2017, 04:41:27 pm
Quote
0 - C.H.O.M.P. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7489122#msg7489122):
4 - Blastshell [A: +Range] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7489260#msg7489260): Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Andres, FallacyofUrist
1 - Blastshell [B: AM Resistance] (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7489260#msg7489260): Chiefwaffles
For our revision, can we maybe upgrade our frost tower to somehow get around their upgraded armor?
Future Revision: Thorough Frost Towers: We've made a modification to the way our frost towers cool the area. Basically, instead of cooling in an expansive method from itself(it projects cold from itself), it instead generates cold directly in the area(cold simply appears instead of being pushed out from the tower), meaning the Moskurgers will be frozen inside their armor despite its fixed temperature. We also expect to gain some experience from this relevant to our impending aetheric plane based teleportation system.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 19, 2017, 04:44:12 pm
Remember radios in the 1st Arms Race?
We're better off using the Frost Towers as a jumping point for some other thing. Like RAM's pseudo-wind thing which I still don't agree with, but that's the kind of thing I'm referring to.
Post by: Andres on June 19, 2017, 05:52:50 pm
Future Revision: Thorough Frost Towers: We've made a modification to the way our frost towers cool the area. Basically, instead of cooling in an expansive method from itself(it projects cold from itself), it instead generates cold directly in the area(cold simply appears instead of being pushed out from the tower), meaning the Moskurgers will be frozen inside their armor despite its fixed temperature. We also expect to gain some experience from this relevant to our impending aetheric plane based teleportation system.We would need some way to protect our troops from the effects of this tower, otherwise this would easily kill them as easily as they would the enemy. Lowering internal body temperature by as little as 10 degrees will kill a regular human ((source (https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/hypothermia))) and our frost towers decrease temperature by a lot more than that.
I think at this point it's better to just design the Frost Towers into something useful. While it is extremely annoying that they just hard countered the entirety of frost towers, countering their counter will lead to them countering our counter of their counter.The idea should not be discounted. If we need a quick win, such as to deny them resources or gain some for ourselves, the frost tower revision would be a great way to get us that. If we send Myark somewhere, we can do this frost tower to make up for his absence on the battlefield. They'd design a counter the next turn, but we'd only need those frost towers for a turn anyway.
Remember radios in the 1st Arms Race?
We're better off using the Frost Towers as a jumping point for some other thing. Like RAM's pseudo-wind thing which I still don't agree with, but that's the kind of thing I'm referring to.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Andres on June 19, 2017, 05:56:15 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 20, 2017, 03:13:43 am
Grow mage gems inside sap bearing trees to reduce the expense and make more "mana dense" (twice as much?) gems. I can make some fluff if anyone thinks this is a good idea.
War Wagon
This large wagon is powered by a blastball engine based on a combination of our blast cannons and steam engines. The engine is made of all crystal, along with the wheels and other mechanisms, and powered by a mage or apprentice safely tucked away inside the wagon. Thick crystal armor protects the crew from ballistic while a thin layer of circuit cooled steel armor absorbs lighting strikes with minimal damage. The entire thing is slanted upwards to deflect wind and heavy enough to not be blown away. It can carry a full load of ten armored soldiers along with a wagonmaster to steer and two apprentices to power the engine and cooling circuits. The goal speed is a little faster then a horse.
Post by: RAM on June 20, 2017, 03:22:16 am
Amber GemsI have been proposing plant magic = gems for a while now. This seems maybe better than mine. Depends upon how effective amber gems are. Could be that customising them makes them awesome, or that they lack the structure to be awesome. I am guessing that they would have awesome special abilities but lower capacity unless they have bugs in them...
Grow mage gems inside sap bearing trees to reduce the expense and make more "mana dense" (twice as much?) gems. I can make some fluff if anyone thinks this is a good idea.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 20, 2017, 04:07:02 am
Amber GemsI have been proposing plant magic = gems for a while now. This seems maybe better than mine. Depends upon how effective amber gems are. Could be that customising them makes them awesome, or that they lack the structure to be awesome. I am guessing that they would have awesome special abilities but lower capacity unless they have bugs in them...
Grow mage gems inside sap bearing trees to reduce the expense and make more "mana dense" (twice as much?) gems. I can make some fluff if anyone thinks this is a good idea.
So we should include insects inside? I mean we can already summon wasps.
Post by: helmacon on June 20, 2017, 05:50:03 am
So we should include insects inside? I mean we can already summon wasps.Amber GemsI have been proposing plant magic = gems for a while now. This seems maybe better than mine. Depends upon how effective amber gems are. Could be that customising them makes them awesome, or that they lack the structure to be awesome. I am guessing that they would have awesome special abilities but lower capacity unless they have bugs in them...
Grow mage gems inside sap bearing trees to reduce the expense and make more "mana dense" (twice as much?) gems. I can make some fluff if anyone thinks this is a good idea.
mage gems 2.0. AI included.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 20, 2017, 10:35:51 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 20, 2017, 11:34:24 am
So we should include insects inside? I mean we can already summon wasps.Amber GemsI have been proposing plant magic = gems for a while now. This seems maybe better than mine. Depends upon how effective amber gems are. Could be that customising them makes them awesome, or that they lack the structure to be awesome. I am guessing that they would have awesome special abilities but lower capacity unless they have bugs in them...
Grow mage gems inside sap bearing trees to reduce the expense and make more "mana dense" (twice as much?) gems. I can make some fluff if anyone thinks this is a good idea.
mage gems 2.0. AI included.
Why not amber petrify an entire mind controlled bird and have it act as a control system? Besides the horror when we realize we can do it to people.
Post by: helmacon on June 20, 2017, 01:26:05 pm
Quote
magic based cryo sleep for when we get to space.
Why not amber petrify an entire mind controlled bird and have it act as a control system? Besides the horror when we realize we can do it to people.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 20, 2017, 01:50:20 pm
Moskurg's weapons:
- Lightning - We can probably solve this with a new crystal design or a revision to crystal. Either way it should be easy given our two attempts already.
- Firestorms - See the below Environmental Control System for combat armor. Lets our soldiers operate underwater(!!!!!) and just ignore their fire by using climate control and recycled air.
- Ballistae - Better crystal, kinetic shielding, or power armor. Just give our soldiers more protection.
- Tornadoes - Uh. I don't really know how to easily solve this on the personal level. APCs could help, or just a counter to their tornadoes in a more direct way.
On that note, here's a better version of the Air Recycling System I posted earlier. It's pretty much just a change in fluff, but I feel it suits it better.
Future(?) Revision: Environmental Control System
The Environmental Control System, or ECS, is an integral yet simple circuit (or scroll) that can be integrated into any closed environment. Its overall role is to provide a suitable environment for anyone inside the closed space regardless of outside conditions. Its first use will be implementation inside all Combat Armor, but a minor part of the project is making use of it elsewhere in the military and civilian life.
The first aspect is its cooling circuits. We've had plenty of experience with cooling circuits before, from the important Magical Condenser (which is a tiny cooling circuit itself, essentially!) to the frost circuits we use nearly everywhere to prevent overheating of items. The cooling circuits are set to keep the interior at a comfortable room temperature, and doesn't consume power as this is a simple passive "enchantment". It can keep this up regardless of the outside environment. If it doesn't add any notable degree of complexity, then we'd also include basic heating capabilities as well, but that's low priority.
This means our soldiers will be able to comfortably brave any environment regardless of outside conditions. When Combat Armor is equipped with an ECS, it'll be able to survive any temperatures - even if the Combat Armor has been doused with Moskurg's fireoil, the occupant will remain perfectly comfortable.
The second (very slightly lower priority) aspect is fresh air. Our soldiers may not always be in the best conditions for breathing. Whether it's because they're doused in fireoil or are underwater, we can't always expect for our soldiers to have a supply of fresh air. That's why the ECS includes another circuit-based enchantment to keep the air content at standard atmospheric levels perfect for breathing. This circuit is primarily based on the Fireball/Blastball, which we have extreme experience with. Fireballs, for example, essentially create a mixture of gases. This combined with our general conjuration experience mean we can easily create the part of the ECS that adjusts the gas levels in the environment for optimum breathing conditions. It doesn't require new air to be brought in, and an ECS in a closed environment with people inside can keep the air breathable forever without any air brought in from outside.
The result is a powerless small circuit that can be integrated to anything, and will ensure perfect atmospheric conditions regardless of anything happening outside. Our soldiers will be able to walk through fire and walk underwater. If a sailor is thrown overboard, the only thing they need to worry about is food and water before rescue. If a soldier is firebombed, they can just ignore it and continue on. If a (somehow non-frozen) lake is blocking our soldiers' path, they can just walk through it. If the conditions outside are too hot or somehow too cold for living, our soldiers can just ignore it! And the ECS can be put anywhere in a closed environment. Future vehicles can ignore outside conditions, and our camps can be perfect for living regardless of the weather. Some have even wanted to make a greenhouse using the ECS.
Yet it's simple. It's simply combining our existing climate control circuits (like the Magical Condenser) with a circuit based upon our extensive Fireball experience.
TL;DR: A circuit that controls the environment to be breathable and at the perfect temperature regardless of outside conditions. Can be put anywhere, but for now lets our Combat Armor soldiers walk underwater virtually indefinitely and lets them ignore fire + Moskurg firebombs. Also has cool miscellaneous benefits like improving living conditions of civilians + our soldiers and allowing for greenhouses. All while being really simple to make.
The ECS is actually really useful. It's simple and easy to implement in just about anything and is useful in any closed environment. Submarines, tanks, amphibious vehicles, whatever. Makes their firebombs useless.
Also we could totally use this as a stepping stone for the Arstotzkan Orbital Program. Which is totally a thing.
Post by: Andres on June 20, 2017, 02:21:48 pm
Tornadoes - Uh. I don't really know how to easily solve this on the personal level. APCs could help, or just a counter to their tornadoes in a more direct way.My Fireball revision should give our wizards the punch they need to disrupt and destroy their tornadoes. It's working with fireballs, so it's likely to succeed and only requires a revision instead of a full design. Should also guarantee that Myark wins all duels with Al-Mutriqa.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Andres on June 20, 2017, 04:25:51 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on June 20, 2017, 04:29:23 pm
The most difficult part about blastshells, as it turns out, is the power density. We HAVE the technology and know-how to build the shells, but our magi-tech isn't quite there to make them feasible.
We manage to produce a working example for the HA1, at least. The large size of the shell gives us room to play with, in order to fit in the modest copper scroll-work and A-level magegems. AA proved to be too weak and and we required too many to fit in the shell, so A-level gems were used. Two A-gems were required for a SPSF-C blast, so for a larger-scale PSF-C we require three times as many. A nickel circuit controls the spellwork, measuring both the force exerted on the shell and using a cheap AAA gem for a split-second timer.
The shell itself is a solid iron slug. It has the copper scroll for a core, which is integrated with the 6 A gems and single AAA gem. Because gems tend to slowly discharge over time, the cores are removable and are charged and inserted only when it's time to fire. A small cup-shaped indent in the rear of the shell gives the concussive blast a direction to fire in and appropriately apply the force.
When fired, the blast of three simultaneous PSF-C's triggers the sensor, which begins draining the AAA gem. Once empty, the six A gems are all simultaneously drained to conjure a single additional PSF-C in the rear cup of the shell.
The end result is a shell that gains an extra "kick" a split second after leaving the muzzle of the cannon, propelling it even further and faster than before.
The shell proves to be rather inaccurate once it reaches lower speeds, unfortunately. The inclusion of the cup on the rear of the shell manages to capture the extra power of the blast, but induces quite a bit of turbulent drag - especially at low speeds. The shell can reach BLOS+1, but accuracy at this range is non-existant. Additionally, the fact the shells need to be charged before firing slows down firing rate, although not to a large degree. But hey, at least they don't jam the guns, right?
The shell is only available for the HA1, as it has the largest shell and we can fit the spacious circuitry inside it. The magegems are the most expensive part of this invention, making it Very Expensive.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 20, 2017, 04:34:34 pm
Aerodynamic Blastshell
We experiment with several different shape designs on the Blastshell to allow it to be launched, fire the blast and then not lose accuracy.
Post by: Andres on June 20, 2017, 04:36:53 pm
Post by: helmacon on June 20, 2017, 04:39:20 pm
Anyways, we should do optics fit the revision. Especially with this extra range. Optics well be necessary to spot and stuff.
Post by: andrea on June 20, 2017, 04:42:47 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on June 20, 2017, 04:43:16 pm
GM, we got a 6+1 on the effectiveness. Shouldn't that have at least given us an explosive payload as well?
Not without making it a NE. The vote was to prioritize range.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 20, 2017, 04:45:15 pm
Post by: helmacon on June 20, 2017, 04:48:41 pm
At least, that's the idea I had from the way people kept talking about it...
Post by: RAM on June 20, 2017, 04:48:49 pm
Jet-powered ironclads
The pulse-jet is dead-simple, well winthin our means, and just needs a repeating spell from our continuous fog applied to a low-power explosion spell in a circuit. A single cage-and-plug valve is super-within our means and would basically work to cover the intake. Faster,m more powerful ships can evade enemy fire and pusrue enemy aircraft. These engines can operate in air and water so there is no sense in holding back on numbers or position, and the power they can apply into water ought to best the power of a surface-only tornado. I doubt that they can run as efficiently as steam but the burst of speed should do wonders.
Propellors
Because propellors...
I would predict that exploding in mid-air would ruin accuracy, but meh...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 20, 2017, 04:54:20 pm
Revision: Better Magegems (UPDATED VERSION HERE) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7490741#msg7490741)
We increase the power density of Magegems. The desired effect is essentially moving Magegems up a tier. So new AAA = old AA. New AA = old A. New A = ???. Or better if we get a good enough roll.
Fluff to come.
Quote
1 - Better Magegems: Chiefwaffles
Post by: andrea on June 20, 2017, 04:55:41 pm
Quote
2 - Better Magegems: Chiefwaffles, Andrea[/quote]
More power, More available. This is the future.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 20, 2017, 04:56:33 pm
1. Aerodynamics
2. Constant burn of smaller blasts for the entire flight
3. Cheaper/more mana dense Mage gems
4. No removable core - we can have an apprentice stay near the stockpile and top up the shells regularly, no need for removable.
Post by: helmacon on June 20, 2017, 04:56:54 pm
I thought the whole reason we were doing explosive ammunition was to help fight their air assets, because explosions. Why the fuck were people even calling it EA if the design doesn't explode?! What the fuck people??
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 20, 2017, 04:57:34 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 20, 2017, 04:58:45 pm
And also, at sea our HA1s are outranged by their airships. The range part was intended to fix that.
Post by: helmacon on June 20, 2017, 04:59:55 pm
Post by: andrea on June 20, 2017, 05:01:08 pm
Right now, they just stay out of range from our guns. And we couldn't hit them because our guns didn't have enough range to reach them.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 20, 2017, 05:01:43 pm
We can not hit the air ships because of the angles involved. That's why we designed a gun specifically to shoot at more extreme angles.
Yes, and it could not hit them. Remember that their ballistas and lighting both hit at extreme range with super precision.
Hell, just researching true shot would be worth it even if it took 3 designs, it is so powerful basically all our cannon work would be worth just having that spell.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 20, 2017, 05:02:45 pm
Their airships can shoot at us from BLOS range. Or HA1s can shoot at HA1 range, but only if they hit the ground. The point of additional range was so HA1s can hit them in the air at BLOS range.
Post by: andrea on June 20, 2017, 05:04:33 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 20, 2017, 05:41:15 pm
Magegems are... "useful".
They were envisioned as a device to prevent our mages from being just batteries. Despite the apparent success of the project, they were in many ways a failure. Sure, we had created batteries for magical energy, but they were extraordinarily weak. Only by using extreme amounts of the large and bulky A-sized Magegems could we get anywhere close to the spells used by mages today.
It's believed that Magegems are more-or-less inefficient in their storage of energy. It's as if you filled a water tank with debris, limiting the maximum amount of water for no apparent benefit. By optimizing the structure using our extensive knowledge of these kinds of structures, we can allow each Magegem to more efficiently store power, getting the practical effect of each Magegem tier storing more power for the same size and cost.
Our realistic goal is for each Magegem to "jump up" a tier without going up in price or size, and we shall classify these improved Magegems by appending a "+" to the end of the classification.
The AAA+ Magegem should store as much power as the AA Magegem while still keeping the AAA's Cheap expense and tiny size.
The AA+ Magegem should store as much power as the A Magegem while still keeping the AA's Expensive nature and fairly small size.
The A+ Magegem should jump in power storage as much as the previous Magegems, although we do not have a bigger size to compare it to. It should of course still be Very Expensive and keep the size of the A Magegem.
Of course, this is just the realistic goal. If possible, we wish to improve our Magegems even further.
The improving of every Magegem is a simple task - each Magegem is really the same design, only in varying sizes. The benefits of this revision should of course not be exclusive to a single size of Magegem, and thus can be applied to any of the sizes. Though if for some strange reason a size had to be prioritized, the AA+ Magegem is the most important.
The immediate benefits are clear:
The AS-R1 Hybrid Rifle shall be able to use AA+ Magegems instead of A Magegems. It's easier to store AA+ Magegems on the person and to transport them in bulk, making ammunition storage less of a worry. It's slightly easier to reload with the smaller Magegems, slightly increasing rate of fire. But most importantly, AA+ Magegems should be cheaper than the A Magegems currently used, and the price of the AS-R1 should drop to merely Expensive for Mundane Users.
The Blastshell is the biggest beneficiary. We wish to create variants of the Blastshell using these improved Magegems:
The Blastshell-RE, "Rocket Explosive", does not decrease on the size, expense, or amount of Magegems, and will use A+ Magegems instead of A Magegems. This should allow for us to use our extensive experience to make the Blastshell-RE both Blastball-propelled and explosive. It can still only fit in the HA1 and should be Very Expensive.
The Blastshell-E, "Explosive", decreases the size and expense of the Blastshell by using AA+ Magegems instead of A Magegems. The shell is smaller due to the gains in space from using AA+ Magegems, and thus can fit into at least the HC1-E, and preferably the AS-HAC-1; there will of course be a variant for the HA1 as well so we can use our HA1s to lob explosive shells at BLOS range. The Blastshell-E foregoes the range bonus for an explosive effect. It should be Expensive. If, for whatever reason, we can only create one variant, this is the highest priority variant.
The Blastshell-R, "Rocket", decreases the size and expense via AA+ Magegems just like the Blastshell-E and fits in the same cannons, but unlike the Blastshell-E, the Blastshell-R keeps the Blastball range boost, allowing our HA1s, HC1-Es and AS-HAC-1s to get higher velocity shells for better armor piercing or increase their range by one "unit". Like the Blastshell-E, it should be just Expensive.
If by some
We've been using Magegems a lot recently, with the introduction of the AS-R1 Rifle two(?) years ago and just now the new Blastshell. We've had them for quite a while and have had plenty of opportunities to tinker and study with them. This revision should be easy.
As for the Blastshell variants, note this line from the Academy's Report's summary:
The most difficult part about blastshells, as it turns out, is the power density. We HAVE the technology and know-how to build the shells, but our magi-tech isn't quite there to make them feasible.With increased power density and our existing know-how on how to build the desired shells, it should be trivial to make the shells.
TL;DR: Shift the tier of each Magegem up by one unit without increasing expense or size. So new AA = old A and so on. With this revision, the Explosive and Ranged variants of the Blastshell will become just Expensive + hopefully fit into HC1-Es and maybe AS-HAC-1s because of the smaller Magegems, the Explosive+Ranged variant Blastshell should become Very Expensive (though definitely only fitting in the HA1), and the AS-R1 should become Expensive for Mundane users because of the cheaper Magegems it can use.
Difficulty - See the stuff I've said about this above. We've been using Magegems a lot recently and have had them for a while, now. Revising something like this should be pretty easy. Regarding the Blastshell variants, that's just a direct consequence of better Magegems. Evicted has said we know how to make all the stuff, in fact, we really have the three variants already; they're just really expensive. Getting better Magegems should allow us to decrease the Expense and Size of all three variants due to the bottleneck being improved. As for the AS-R1, that's straightforward. The A Magegems are adding an expense level to the mundane version, and using AA+ Magegems should fix that.
Effects - The stated Blastshell variants (-R, -E, -RE) should all go down an expense level, as should the mundane version of the AS-R1. And of course, Magegems will be better in general.
2) Sure, you make a variant of the shell that explodes on impact. Still Very Expensive, and still BLOS, but now you have explosive ammo.Just posting here to reinforce my point: We already know how to make all this stuff and the only new thing in the revision is the better Magegems. The variants are all just cost reductions and direct consequences of better Magegems.
Quote
2 - Better Magegems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7490741#msg7490741): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
Post by: helmacon on June 20, 2017, 05:46:21 pm
Quote
2 - Better Magegems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7490741#msg7490741): Chiefwaffles, Andrea[/quote]
Crystal Optics: helmacon
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 20, 2017, 05:51:06 pm
Better Magegems does the following:
1.) It helps us at land by actually introducing explosive ammunition at just Expensive. Nearly every single update for a while now we've been reminded that our lack of explosive ammunition is hurting us.
2.) It helps us fight their airships by making the stanadard Blastshell expensive and able to fit in smaller cannons.
3.) It helps us against their armor as rocket-boosted shells (the standard Blastshell) should be able to pierce armor more effectively.
4.) It makes our AS-R1 rifles drop in expense for mundane users, who should be able to actually use it effectively.
5.) It allows us to make a (VE) version of the Blastshell with both the boost and explosive, to help even further.
Crystal Optics just makes our HA1s a bit better. Their useful weapons are literally all line-of-sight based. Crystal optics won't help at all against them. It'll just make BLOS targeting more effective for the HA1 and the HA1 only.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 20, 2017, 05:53:49 pm
Quote
Revision:Better Magegems are important for all sorts of magical stuff. Like the Silencer we'll hopefully do for our next design. Or better shells. Or Silencer Shells.
3 - Better Magegems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7490741#msg7490741): Chiefwaffles, Andrea, FallacyofUrist
1 - Crystal Optics: helmacon
Myark:
1 - Send to Western Sea - FallacyofUrist
Post by: RAM on June 20, 2017, 05:56:40 pm
Add to that the fact that carpets are shorter ranged threats. Not that the carpets are relevant in any way at all, but it was the whole reason that we built the infantry cannons so?
Also, the better magegems seems pretty ambitious. They all get a buff and maintain their cost? I would think that we could either get expensive B magems or make the existing magems cheaper. We realyl need to spend a design on recharging them if we want to free our wizards.
Post by: helmacon on June 20, 2017, 05:58:59 pm
Also, I wrote a thing about where all our optics would help us (a lot of places) but I don't feel like digging it up right now.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 20, 2017, 05:59:16 pm
The basic mage gem revision will reduce the expense of our stuff, then we can use them to make or revise new things, but trying to make 3 new ammo types while also improving our mage gems seems like a stretch.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 20, 2017, 06:06:05 pm
The benefits for the Blastshell and AS-R1 are natural consequences of a successful Magegems revision. If that single attribute change can reasonably affect other things, then it does. Like nickel circuits being a simple change yet having a variety of benefits for many different things. Nickel circuits lowered the expense of every(?) cannon we had and the steam engine and made them less vulnerable to fire.
And yeah, Evicted said air targets at BLOS are visible. The problem is that (without the Blastshell) our HA1s can only hit BLOS targets at ground level, and the airships are above that. Extending the HA1's range to BLOS+1 means they won't have a problem hitting targets in the air at BLOS.
Carpets were not the whole reason we built the "infantry cannons", and I'm assuming you're referring to both the AS-HAC-1 and AS-R1. The AS-HAC-1 was envisioned primarily as a lighter cannon for point defense and use against closer targets versus the more long-ranged sieging nature of the HC1-E and HA1. The AS-R1 is more-so intended as a general-purpose infantry weapon, though it's not there quite yet.
@VoidSlayer + helmacon - From the discord:
---
evictedSaint: The vote prioritized the +range aspect. Adding an explosive payload would have increased the cost and increased the difficulty. After the anti-magic shell, I figured you guys would prefer a more available shell.
Andrea: does that mean that it is within the reach of a revision to get better magegems and have the explosive effect?
evictedSaint: Sure. I did say you had the tech and the limiting factor was the power available.
---
Also see what I said to RAM.
Note evicted's last statement. The limiting factor is the power available. With the Blastshell, it's entirely the Magegems stopping us. With more power, we can implement both explosives and ranged like Evicted said. And we can easily have a variant just using the cheaper version of the Magegems providing the same power, and evicted said in the design post for the Blastshell that the Magegems are the bottleneck in terms of price so using cheaper Magegems makes the price go down.
Post by: RAM on June 20, 2017, 06:22:51 pm
Basically, if you want magical explosion to provide sustained thrust ith any sort of efficiency, then you gotta have something to stop the implosion from sucking you back. A pulse-jet would do it. Or a conjuration spell to fill the void, or displacement magic to shift the low-pressure somewhere else... But the pulse-jet is the easy choice.
Post by: helmacon on June 20, 2017, 06:32:26 pm
You can change my vote to mage gems so long as you emphasize the explosive nature in the revision.
@RAM
Based on the fact that our guns and cannons actually work fairly well using the fireball-C for propulsion, I am of the opinion that it does not form a vacuum. As for the reason, take your pick. If you are not of the same opinion, I recommend you @ the GM instead of assuming and building designs off of the assumption.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 20, 2017, 06:36:19 pm
From the Discord:
Quote from: evictedSaint (Discord)
The blast ball conjures smoke, heat, and exhaust in a small volume, then it rapidly expands.
Currently you can only conjur this in air.
A blast ball would more rapidly expand in a vaccuum, because the pressure differential is greater.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 20, 2017, 06:39:13 pm
Post by: RAM on June 20, 2017, 06:41:02 pm
Blastball does not form a vacuum.Whole conversation please. This lacks context.
From the Discord:Quote from: evictedSaint (Discord)The blast ball conjures smoke, heat, and exhaust in a small volume, then it rapidly expands.
Currently you can only conjur this in air.
A blast ball would more rapidly expand in a vaccuum, because the pressure differential is greater.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 20, 2017, 06:44:05 pm
Andrea: @evictedSaint would the blastball work in a vacuum?
evictedSaint: Hmmm...
Let's say yes. If you had a vaccuum chamber, it would eventually fill with smoke from repeated blastballs.
Andrea: hm. Ok, further clarification: to effectively apply kinetic energy, it needs a medium such as air or smoke? if we had a vacuum chamber , will a blastball push less than it would in air?
basically, I am trying to determine if it is worth to make a full pulsejet or if a gun barrel like configuration works just as well
evictedSaint: The blast ball conjures smoke, heat, and exhaust in a small volume, then it rapidly expands.
Currently you can only conjur this in air.
A blast ball would more rapidly expand in a vaccuum, because the pressure differential is greater.
EDIT: (A second look at the conversation reveals this final comment)
Andrea: Ok. So, I guess a proper pulsejet design should include an inlet pipe, otherwise the low pressure created by blasting air outside continuously would spoil efficiency
Quote
Revision:I edited in an emphasis on the explosive variant in the revision, helmacon, so I added your vote to Better Magegems. And I'm voting for Myark to the Western Sea because we have to reassign him now (no longer fighting in the Northern Sea) and I'm trusting Fallacy here without checking what the Western Sea is bordering.
4 - Better Magegems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7490741#msg7490741): Chiefwaffles, Andrea, FallacyofUrist, Helmacon
0 - Crystal Optics:
Myark:
2 - Send to Western Sea - FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles
Post by: Andres on June 20, 2017, 06:50:39 pm
1. When we were designing the R1, we envisioned it using either an SF or a PSF to power it. To actually achieve the design, our engineers (researchers? mathemagicians?) revised a new version of Fireball - the SPSF - despite us not including such a revision in the original design document.
With the blastshell, there are two in-design revisions that could've been done, one of which we tried to go for. The first in-design revision could've been making magegems more powerful so we could outfit smaller shells with the designs or make the HA1 ones cheaper. (We did not try to go for this one.) The second in-design revision that could've been making the PSF-C exert a constant force rather than a brief force. (We did in fact try to go for this one.)
If adding an explosive payload would've made the shell too expensive, couldn't the excess success of the 6+1 have gone to achieving one of these two revisions? (The R1 got a 2 to effectiveness but we still got the Fireball revision.) If not, which stats and in what circumstances allow for these in-design revisions to be completed or to spontaneously happen? (A low complexity/ambition design might be it, but to my understanding high complexity/ambition designs just result in lower bonuses/higher DCs.)
2. Instead of completing additional design goals, couldn't the 6+1 have instead gone to designing a version that, instead of detonating the PSF-C to give it extra range, instead detonated on impact? You said that a shell which had both range and an explosive payload would've been NE, but this just has the explosive payload, no range boost.
3. As another alternative, could the 6+1 not also have given us an NE version of the shell that had both a range boost and the explosive payload in addition to the one we got?
4. If none of the above could be done, were did the excess effectiveness go? What happens to a design when it rolls more effectiveness than it needs to succeed (presuming that 6 (after modifiers) results in successful design)?
5. You said that if it had been given an explosive payload it would've driven the price to NE. To my understanding, the only way to get something to be NE is to get an expense result of 1 or less, with more complex/large-scale designs assigning maluses to the roll rather than increasing the DC. Is this not the case? If it is the case, another question: if an ambitious design, such as ours, were to get a 1 for effectiveness, meaning the design failed or did little, would that give a bonus to expense (making it cheaper)?
5.1. Related to the above, in Sensei's game, Arstotzka's starting pistol had the Shoddy tag, which decreased reliability but also decreased its expense level by 1. (Removing the Shoddy tag increased its expense level but also increased its reliability.) Could we get something like that depending on how we roll and what we roll for?
6. To get some confirmation, how does revision ambition work? Say we were trying to get X, Y, and Z in a revision. If we designated X as the highest priority out of X, Y, and Z, would we have an equal chance of getting X as if we were to instead just trying to get X (with a low roll simply meaning we don't get Y and Z)?
Again, sorry if this breaks rule 2. If it does, I hope that it's at least significant enough and worthy enough to be worth it.
Post by: RAM on June 20, 2017, 07:25:15 pm
We have discovered the the function of B.B.s is vastly different to what we would have expected. It actually produces explosive material and promptly detonates it. Using our vast knowledge of conjuration, it is quite easy to remove the latter part of the enchantment, resulting in a stable material that can be detonated with a flame. For now all we are doing with it is producing flasks of the stuff and handing them out to gun crews for reduced magical use, as a large gun can be loaded with a parcel of the stuff to be detonated with the smaller fireball spell used by the infantry model.
Smokeless B.B.s
As above, but instead we simply use our conjuration expertise to fine-tune the material produced to conjure something that is more powerful. Thus creating a more powerful explosive with less residue.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 20, 2017, 07:56:13 pm
Also, what's the point of gunpowder? It looks like all it does is introduce another thing to load, reducing our RoF, and making our forces rely on existing supply lines even more as now they need bullets/shells and gunpowder. It still needs a fireball in the end meaning magic use is still required, and we can get mundane usage of rifles much more easily by just making the magic component easier (aethergems, better magegems, conversion of other energies into magic, etc.) for mundane troops.
And on a related note, on a hunt for something else, I found this:
Just thought it was worth bringing up.we should ask the GM if the fireball is actually explosive or if it is just a ball of hot gas that spreads on impact or something.
Don't get too caught up on specifics. Don't forget that it's all dice and judgement behind the scenes of designs and revisions.
Funny that it was Andrea who asked it that time too, though.
Waitwaitwait.
Evicted, are our anti-magic bombs any use against their carpets? The bombs have shrapnel which are explicitly very good against unarmored opponents (and can even start fires).
Also, we could make anti-magic bullets/AS-HAC-1 shells based off of the anti-magic bombs. Shouldn't be too hard for a revision.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 20, 2017, 08:11:23 pm
2) Sure, you make a variant of the shell that explodes on impact. Still Very Expensive, and still BLOS, but now you have explosive ammo.
3) It could have, but after the bitching from the NE anti-magic shell I took off an extra -1 from the expense to drop the explosive aspect. Now there's still complaining, but from the opposite end.
4) Above 6 is still a 6, the same way below 1 is still a 1.
5) Yes, that is the case. No, only if you deliberately design it to be cheap or use only cheap components does it get an expense bonus.
5.1) I'm not going to introduce new mechanics, especially because my previous attempts to do so were met poorly.
6) Revisions fix one specific aspect, maaaaybe two if it's a high roll and the fix makes sense for two. For example, making circuits cheap made many things that used circuits cheap.
@waffles: yes, they were useful. Back when their carpets flew within bow range your anti magic bomb arrows shredded them.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 20, 2017, 08:21:00 pm
1.) How are their carpets usually utilized in the field? Are they basically the same as the airship, flying out of range and just spamming lightning, or are they doing something differently? I was under the impression that they were still flying over us, but evidently I was mistaken.
EDIT: Removed the second question, since it's probably a bit out-of-scope for a mostly-OOC question and I'm pretty confident in my presumed answer based on stuff Evicted already said.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 20, 2017, 08:35:27 pm
Post by: RAM on June 20, 2017, 08:41:52 pm
RAM, Evicted never said Blastballs produce any notable amount of smoke.They produce smoke, I wish to advance our explosives from gunpowder to smokeless powder. Because this is exactly the sort of ridiculous arbitrary attempt to make modern technology that doesn't fit into our abilities or needs that has been all the rage lately.
Also, what's the point of gunpowder?
Gunpowder can be loaded into shells. We can easily synthesise shells of any construction that we want after am illion crystal actions. So it should be very easy to make HE shells using far mor energy than we could otherwise power. Now, granted, we could power something much better if we had the inclination towards ritual casting, but we don't so we may as well engage in mass-production of gunpowder to produce modern artillery shells...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 20, 2017, 08:59:46 pm
Note this bit:
Quote
Despite its name, smokeless powder is not completely free of smoke;[2]:44 while there may be little noticeable smoke from small-arms ammunition, smoke from artillery fire can be substantial.Note how we have gotten zero indication of smoke ever being a problem in this entire time we've had artillery, or even blastball artillery.
Notice how in his description of the Blastball's effects, Evicted said that it was smoke and exhaust. All chemical reactions are going to produce something - it's conservation of mass. Smokeless powder makes smoke and exhaust. Just like the Blastball. It was never said to be a problem, it can't reasonably be a problem, it's not a problem.
Oh yeah, and note this from last combat report:
With no steam cloud or movement required on their part, their often unseen and unheard beyond the report of their rifles.That's right. Evicted clearly and explicitly states that our rifles do not produce any visual indicators of being fired. He even said no steam cloud. He wouldn't list this as a benefit if there was just a smoke cloud replacing it. He doesn't even mention a muzzle flash.
Given the fact there have been zero mentions of smoke clouds regarding artillery or rifles, I'm even confident that Blastballs produce less smoke than modern-day gunpowder.
And regarding gunpowder, I still don't get the point. I had a big quote-by-quote argument ready for this, but it really only serves to create salt and pollute the thread more. My point is that gunpowder is a worse form of Blastball with added limitations that we'd have to spend an action on for literally no benefit other than the entire "benefit" of "modernizing" us. I mostly wanted to respond to the smokeless thing because I'm afraid that there's a miniscule chance where if I don't, Evicted may go "Huh, why doesn't it make smoke clouds?". Again, miniscule chance, but it exists.
Also, regarding future actions, we should definitely try countering their tornadoes. Since it was explicitly stated to be the number one killer of our troops.
Post by: RAM on June 20, 2017, 09:54:23 pm
I mostly wanted to respond to the smokeless thing because I'm afraid that there's a miniscule chance where if I don't, Evicted may go "Huh, why doesn't it make smoke clouds?". Again, miniscule chance, but it exists.Yeah, now this is the thing that I will not go along with. You are free to have your own philosophy on the matter, but Imma be open about stuff.
And you have sold me on us already using smokeless powder. S o we just gotta look up something even better!
Antimatter powder
Upon realising that B.B.s are actually a conjuration effect, bringing forth matter from nothing, we decided to go for the most reactive thing we could. It was very simple to mathemagically tweak the spell's design so that the summoned material was entirely reactive at a fundamental level. It actually turned out to be as simple as swapping the signs on a couple of spell-threads whose purpose we have yet to discern. The effect, though, is tremendous. After the tragic initial test with a small rifle, we have revised the spell to operate with a very very very much lower volume, creating a very very very much more efficient spell with which to power our cannons.
Post by: Kadzar on June 20, 2017, 10:49:02 pm
Quote
Revision:
5 - Better Magegems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7490741#msg7490741): Chiefwaffles, Andrea, FallacyofUrist, Helmacon, Kadzar
0 - Crystal Optics:
Myark:
3 - Send to Western Sea - FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles, Kadzar
Post by: Andres on June 20, 2017, 10:50:58 pm
Quote
Revision:Phew! Got here just in time. Man this vote was close!
6 - Better Magegems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7490741#msg7490741): Chiefwaffles, Andrea, FallacyofUrist, Helmacon, Kadzar, Andres
0 - Crystal Optics:
Myark:
4 - Send to Western Sea - FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles, Kadzar, Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on June 21, 2017, 01:26:30 am
Post by: Andres on June 21, 2017, 03:00:44 am
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on June 21, 2017, 03:57:42 am
Our crystals are just a material. Their metal is total immunity to any form of environmental concerns that lack the "armour piercing" label.
At a guess I would say that they have a material enchantment magic that allows them to imbue properties onto a material.
Anyone in the mood for a 20kilometre tall forest? I am in the mood for a 20 kilometre tall forest... And no, trees that big are not vulnerable to fire...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 21, 2017, 11:06:49 am
Revision: Weighted Crystal Shells
Modifying Crystal is easy - we've done it numerous times with numerous revisions, and have even done stuff like Crystal Glass, which can be easily made and incorporated with other crystal. This revision is no different, and has a simple goal:
Heavier crystal that we then make shells with.
The reason we don't use crystal in our shells and bullets right now is simple - weight. Crystal is just a bit too late for use as a projectile and suffers for it. So we make some trivial tweaks to a new process in the Crystalworks and have it printing out crystal shells for both our standard and special ammunition!
Our expensive ammunition would be easier to make with the cheaper crystal - namely the Blastshell, but hopefully also the Equalizer.
All our ammunition will be a bit more effective at their job, as we're aiming to make weighted crystal shells heavier than their steel counterparts. Not heavy enough to disrupt range, but enough to increase the kinetic energy by just a bit.
If possible, we're also planning on spending a day or two on making a spell for conjuring a standard weighted crystal shell. The shell would still dispel in antimagic fields and would still take some time to summon, but it shouldn't be any difficulty to make the formula allowing the conjuration of crystal shells, and means our artillery can continue operating to limited effectiveness without a supply line.
TL;DR: Make our shells out of a heavier variant of crystal in order to reduce expense, and increase weight of shells enough to increase effectiveness/armor piercing/kinetic energy, but not enough to decrease range. (Just make as heavy as steel if former's not possible.)
Material Swap - We swap the material in our shells. Instead of steel, we use crystal. This has always been an extremely trivial task.
Heavier Crystal - We make a variant of crystal a bit heavier than steel - enough for better kinetic energy and the like, but not enough to decrease range (or just the same). Considering how easily we made Crystal Glass, and the fact that we have the Crystalworks, this should be easy.
Benefits - The (slightly) heavier shells would hit harder without a decrease in range (though if this isn't possible, we just use the same weight as steel). But more importantly, our more expensive shells like the Equalizer and the Blastshell should all drop a level in expense, making the Equalizer Expensive, the Blastshell-R/E Cheap, and the Blastshell-RE Expensive.
In addition to its immediate benefits, this revision also makes the idea of quickly summoning crystal shells in lieu of self-loading a bit easier. I'm still not completely certain if that's the way to go regarding self-loading, but it's nice regardless.
And we should also look into making guided ammunition in the future. Manuevering can be done by thrust vectoring a constant Blastball via modifying it in real time, but the actual "smart" portion would be mildly difficult. Maybe a Mindgem with the intelligence of a wasp.
Post by: Andres on June 21, 2017, 11:26:50 am
For our next revision, I'm thinking we should do this:We really, truly have better things to do than using a Revision phase on heavier crystal. We'll need to do something about their tornadoes next turn since we're not doing anything about them this turn.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 21, 2017, 11:30:56 am
And we also have the design phase.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 21, 2017, 02:24:24 pm
A more rigerous selection of quartz for crystal batteries shows that more perfect crystalline structures make for better batteries. As a result, we switch to a specially-made glass, smelted with closely-held secret methods. The workshop for the glass production is addended to our Crystalworks, and we should now be able to produce crystal glass "slugs" that work as improved batteries.
Sticking with the A-levels, a AAA battery should be able to power a couple flares. An AA battery should be able to power a SPSF-C all by itself, and an A battery should be able to power a regular PSF-C. Three A batteries can power a single PSF in all its glory.
The gems no longer atrophy stored energy thanks to bands of minor nickel circuitry around the ends, so they should have an indefinite shelf life. We've taken the liberty of swapping out the improved gems with gems mounted in our existing equipment.
The R1 should be merely Expensive for non-mage users, though the range and load times means some commanders may elect to use longbows instead. Our Blastshells now have increased range and explosive capabilities thanks to the improved energy density, although they are Very Expensive with both aspects (explosive shells and long-range shells are individually Expensive).
Post by: evictedSaint on June 21, 2017, 02:27:00 pm
Post by: Andres on June 21, 2017, 02:27:56 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 21, 2017, 02:28:59 pm
Quote
1 - Chiefwaffles' Thesis - FallacyofUrist
Hey guys? I have a worry to present. Would it make sense at all to use a Research Credit gained from a Thesis about Aethergems on Catgirl Assassins?
Basically, the Research Credit might be limited to what the thesis is about, or at least something connected to the thesis.
~~~
GM, now that magegems are produced by our crystalworks, do they become an expense level lower?Haaaaaaah.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 21, 2017, 02:29:34 pm
I mean, they kind of did? But no, they don't also go down an expense level. Depending on how you look at it, they already went down two expense levels in that revision.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 21, 2017, 02:33:28 pm
Post by: Andres on June 21, 2017, 02:35:16 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 21, 2017, 02:35:37 pm
Evicted, two questions:
I'm assuming we can't equip all our Expensive HA1s with Expensive Blastshells?
And was there enough size reduction so we can equip the Expensive Blastshells in smaller cannons?
Oh, and we needed two A gems to power a SPSF-C before, right?
Post by: evictedSaint on June 21, 2017, 02:41:04 pm
Awesome! Exactly what we set out out do. I'll post my thesis soon.
Evicted, two questions:
I'm assuming we can't equip all our Expensive HA1s with Expensive Blastshells?
And was there enough size reduction so we can equip the Expensive Blastshells in smaller cannons?
Oh, and we needed two A gems to power a SPSF-C before, right?
You can equip enough to matter, but some will fire regular shells due to supply issues.
Smaller HC1-E's can use Explosive or Long-range shells, but not both. HAC-1's and R1's can't work properly with the bulky gems and will not be using them.
Yes, but now a single AA gem should be good for a single shot.
Post by: helmacon on June 21, 2017, 04:08:42 pm
Long bows may be more used now, but sooner or later they are going to up their armor to match ours, and then our guns can really shine. They are essentially a pre-emptive counter to their armor. I think the last report even talked about them punching through armor or something.
I think our thesis ought to be about calculating fire trajectories for our artillery. Perhaps introducing the ideas of bracketing or other artillery techniques. It would make it much more accurate, and thus more useful.
Post by: RAM on June 21, 2017, 04:11:22 pm
Our heir is currently regarded as "overworked" and "used as a battery". A thesis should probably be focused on something a bit less stressful... Magic employed in farming?
Post by: Kadzar on June 21, 2017, 04:28:14 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 21, 2017, 04:40:36 pm
The Connection between Sub-Reality and Reality and the Application of Sub-Reality Ambient Energy in Magegems
Magegems were a frequent topic during my learning at the Academy. In every new project from the senior Mathemagicians, one may often find an attempt at making Magegems truly useful. It was only with the introduction of the AS-R1 Hybrid Rifle that Magegems found a use, yet their expense and consumable nature makes Magegems an obstacle to the rifle. I [Bjorn] have experienced, in my year of training, the strain that powering Magitechnology puts on mages. I believe there’s a better way to accomplish our goals.
Another topic prevalent in the Academy is the theory of the “Aether” – a place below reality, officially deemed “Sub-Reality” in technical parchments. The Aether was first discovered in the year 911 with the introduction of the Magic Lance, a precursor to the now-ubiquitous Crystal. Little research was done into this Aether, and focus was instead spent on other pursuits.
In 921, research was performed into anti-magic charms ultimately resulting in the establishment of the field of Mathemagics, the cornerstone of Arstotzkan society. This research discovered a way to dissipate magical energy via sound, but additionally pointed to a mysterious connection between this humming and the recently-discovered Aether.
The year 918, three years before the introduction of Mathemagics, bore witness to a significant discovery regarding the then-temporary Crystal and the Aether. Specifically, Arstotzka’s researchers made significant headway in the connection between Crystal and the Aether. Crystal was discovered to, in the words of the report, “witness a slight vibration” before “desynchronizing from reality.”
The Aether isn’t some unknown place that Arstotzka never utilized. The Magic Lance in 911 summoned Crystal from the Aether. Conjuration magic exploits this poorly-understood link between Reality and the Aether to operate. With enough understanding, we can use this link for more than just conjuration.
With the knowledge of our past projects, we can discern the relationship between Reality and the Aether. The link is, after all, two-ways: We summon from the Aether and magic dissipates into the Aether. Summoned Crystal is already linked to the Aether, and as of 921, Anti-Magic Charms are partially linked to the Aether. This leads to the conclusion that as magic flows in this two-way link, there must be a way to reverse that flow.
My research has discerned the exact nature of the link. In my lab at the Academy, I had crates of nearly-expiring summoned crystal and anti-magic charms brought in. With our best measuring equipment, I studied how exactly this link manifests: how Crystal desynchronizes, and how anti-magic charms use humming to dissipate magic into the Aether; where does Magic go when it’s “used”? Our research in 918 already brought a light to how Crystal is linked, but my research delves further.
Ultimately, my research would reveal the presence of another aspect of the link. Study of the path of dissipating magic reveals a specific “channel” for magical energy to flow through. It was this channel that would sap the magic sustaining Crystal, causing summoned Crystal to experience the desynchronization from reality discovered in 918. When the link is present between a summoned object and the Aether, magic naturally flows back into the Aether. Magic dissipates naturally via this channel; our anti-magic charms exploit this.
The knowledge of this channel lead to another breakthrough in my research. Careful examination was performed of Mage test volunteers practicing various forms of magic. Mages too exploit the magical channel to the Aether – they’re a living conduit. I believe this conduit alone allows wizards to be able to practice magic. The presence of this conduit is what makes a wizard.
With the appropriate knowledge, I can replicate this link. Through further intense studying, a way to mimic human mages using Magegems was found. A kind of spell maintained via circuit scrolls wrapped around a Magegem can combine the knowledge I’ve discovered and use our existing experience with summoning to “summon” magical energy from the Aether. It takes energy to artificially maintain this link, but the energy pulled in is far greater.
With proper research, we can create a practical version of this – an “Aethergem” – that naturally charges itself or connected Magegems. The prototype I’ve constructed is impractical, large, and expensive. But I trust our Mathemagicians to use my research to create something allowing our mages to begin practicing true magic again, instead of being relegated to the position of a human battery. Finally, I and our mages can be at the front line in the fury of battle where we belong.
Glory to Arstotzka.
911 – Magic Lance (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7395594;topicseen#msg7395594)
918 – Crystal Permanence (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7412848#msg7412848)
921 – Mathemagics (Design) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7424194#msg7424194) (Revision) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7424856#msg7424856)
Quote
2 - The Connection between Sub-Reality and Reality and the Application of Sub-Reality Ambient Energy in Magegems (Chiefwaffles' Thesis): FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles
Post by: Kadzar on June 21, 2017, 05:04:33 pm
Quote
3 - The Connection between Sub-Reality and Reality and the Application of Sub-Reality Ambient Energy in Magegems (Chiefwaffles' Thesis) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7491649#msg7491649): FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles, Kadzar
Post by: Andres on June 21, 2017, 05:44:44 pm
The Wand of Fireballs: Revisited
In the early decades of the war between Arstotzka and Moskurg after magic had been produce, Arstotzka's wizards were powerful, dangerous assets. Their presence was the difference between victory and defeat and through them we won many great victories against the Moskurg filth. Then, with the introduction of anti-magic, their significance dwindled and Arstotzka subsequently followed a path of research that would leave our fighting capabilities unaffected by anti-magic. This path of research has made it so that our wizards are now little more than human batteries. Their job on the battlefield is relegated largely to recharging our war machines and guns. This is a waste of their potential.
Ultimately, the problem is not that our generals have been misusing our wizards. As much as it pains me to say, as it currently is, their usage as human batteries is legitimately the best thing they can do. The reason why they are not direct battlefield assets is not because they are being misused. There are two reasons - linked to each other - why they cannot be used to their full potential. The first reason is the reason why Arstotzka moved away from using wizards in a direct fashion in a first place - Moskurg's anti-magic. The second reason is that our wizards have no spells which are of use in the face of Moskurg's possession of anti-magic.
In order to fully utilise our wizards, we should look to the most venerable and well-researched of all our spells - the Fireball. We have refined it so much that the Wand of Fireballs from which we got the spell is obsolete. We have developed more variations of the spell than all of Moskurg's spell variations combined. We know the Fireball inside and out. With the Fireball, our wizards will not only once more reach the height of their glory, but exceed it. We will do this by going back to where it all began: The Wand of Fireballs.
Over the past year I have researched the most researched and studied spell in history for a way to surpass its limitations and turn it into something more glorious than it already is. I looked to find ways to expand its capabilities and not only that, but also make it useful despite Moskurg's anti-magic. To that end, I have arrived where I am now, having studied the Fireball spell and all its variants (those obsolete in addition those in use) as well as the original Wand of Fireballs itself, with a new, prototype Wand of Fireballs.
The first thing I did was attempt to expand its capabilities. Our current line of Fireballs is limited by the constraints of the spells themselves. The difference between an apprentice's Powerful Streamlined Fireball and a full-fledged wizard's Powerful Streamlined Fireball is that the latter's is cast faster, with no difference in power in the fireballs despite the difference in power between the mages. My research has gone into unlocking the Fireball's potential so that the limiting factor would always be the casting wizard, not the spell itself. The wand I have made has inefficiencies. The PSF a certain full-fledged wizard casts is only a little more powerful than my own, despite him outclassing me by a significant margin. Still, the proof of concept is there.
Having achieved success and proven the concept, I moved on to the next task: immunity to anti-magic. This took an inordinate amount of time to achieve due to less research being done in this area. Knowledge of Fireball helped a little in working through this problem, but meant that only Fireball and Fireball variants could be immune, but success was found. The effect is not total and it faces reliability issues, flickering on and off at times, but when active the effect of anti-magic is noticeably reduced and the spell can be cast, albeit with a greater charge time and reduced effect.
With more funding and dedicated effort to improving upon my prototype, a more reliable, more effective version of the wand can be produced. Fully developed, the wand will greatly enhance our wizards' capacity for destruction while being unaffected by Moskurg's anti-magic. With our great experience with the Fireball, we can even perhaps do more than that, allowing for concerted efforts to create more powerful Fireballs, increasing the range of the Fireballs, or making them follow the enemy. All that is known for sure is this: Arstotzka will win glory, Moskurg shall burn.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Quote
3 - The Connection between Sub-Reality and Reality and the Application of Sub-Reality Ambient Energy in Magegems (Chiefwaffles' Thesis) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7491649#msg7491649): FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles, Kadzar
1 - The Wand of Fireballs: Revisted (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7491710#msg7491710): Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 21, 2017, 07:55:57 pm
(Near-)Future Design: AS-R2 Hybrid Rifle
The AS-R2 is the actual rifle. The actual weapon of the future. Really, the AS-R1 is a prototype. Meant to test the effectiveness of a handheld infantry weapon.
The first improvement of the AS-R2 is simple. Improved accuracy. The AS-R1 possesses remarkable range, but its accuracy hurts this greatly. The rifle actually has a range of Extreme range, but at as little as Medium ranges, it accuracy begins to fall off. By expanding the barrel and streamlining the bullet to reduce disruptive drag, we have increased the accuracy to the point where hopefully the AS-R2 should remain accurate to Extreme range.
(Change this if we do Crystal Optics beforehand)
Next is also simple - a scope. We tweak the structure of Crystal Glass by just a bit to have it create an effect magnifying distant targets. The scope is made out of this magnifying Crystal Glass in a cylinder-resembling shape and placed on top of the AS-R2. We carefully place a crosshair onto the crystal glass scope to indicate where the bullet should hit if one was looking into the scope while firing.
The scope is designed to be able to be detached and reattached as needed, as to not bother the forces fighting close-up with the AS-R2.
Finally, is a groundbreaking improvement: the ability to load multiple bullets at a time.
The AS-R2 uses our knowledge of mechanics learned over decades of use with our many steam engine and steam engine-using designs, the AS-HAC-2, breech-loading, and much much more in order to allow for this innovative feature.
A magazine is placed inside the AS-R2 in order to store 4 bullets at a time. After a bullet is shot out, we use our bolt-action breech-loader to have a lever arm be flipped by the user, forcing a new bullet from the magazine into the barrel to be then fired out when ready.
Ammunition is loaded via a clip. Four bullets are bundled together via being clipped onto a thin and small crystal bar. Clips are stored on the person and are small+light. They can be very easily and quickly loaded into the magazine from a slot in the top of the gun. The bullets are pushed downwards into the magazine while the crystal bar stays outside, and is then discarded.
Clips are stored in a stylish crystal ammunition "pouch" that will now come standard in Combat Armor. Hopefully.
The Magegem clip has been modified to allow for 2 AA Magegems, and we have optimized both the barrel to maximize pressure and the Blastball's energy usage to allow for 1 AA Magegem to support two SPSF-Cs. We use both our extensive Fireball experience here, and use a slightly less powerful Blastball thanks to the barrel optimizations allowing for increased muzzle velocity from the same pressure.
We considered combining the Magegem and bullet clips, but doing so would make reusing Magegem clips after recharging harder.
The AS-R2's operation is simple. A soldier clips in the Magegem and bullet clips. They can then fire once, quickly pull the lever in roughly two seconds, then fire again. They can repeat this to fire four bullets per clip. They then take out the Magegem clip to store it on their person for later recharge then insert new clips.
The new scope combined with greater accuracy will allow for sniping of the likes we've never seen before. At Extreme range, their commanders will be nearly instantly hit by a sniper using the scope on their AS-R2. Our advances can be shielded from ballistae by having AS-R2 users snipe the ballistae operators. Lightning (and tornadoes) can be easily stopped by sniping the mages. The extremely improved rate of fire will make our longbows effectively obsolete wherever they can be replaced. The AS-R2 will be an extremely versatile weapon of many users, from standard ranged to close combat to sniping to much more.
TL;DR: A bolt action clip-fed rifle equipped with a scope and greater accuracy compared to the AS-R1. Useful for replacing the longbow (disregarding Expense) due to its greater range, accuracy, and rate of fire. Useful for sniping because of its scope and greater accuracy. Useful for close combat (disregarding anti-magic for now) because of its RoF. And other things I haven't thought of.
Accuracy - Increase the accuracy via a longer barrel and more aerodynamic bullet, reducing disrupting drag. The AS-R1 has a max range of Extreme and an effective range of Long because its accuracy begins dropping off at medium range. We make it accurate up to Extreme.
Scope - Use Crystal Glass + modifications (tons of Crystal experience + crystalworks!) to make a scope for the AS-R2. Can also spot for artillery if we don't have that yet. Can be detached.
Clip-loading/Bolt-action - We already essentially have bolt action for breech loading. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480114#msg7480114) We just add an internal magazine loaded via clips of 4 bullets. A bullet is pushed into the breech every time the bolt is opened by the user. Drastically[/I] increasing rate of fire.
2x Magegem Clip/Improved SPSF-C Effiency - We make a single clip holding two wired-together AA Magegems. By decreasing the power needed for the same muzzle velocity through optimizing the barrel and increasing the efficiency of the SPSF-C in general via our experience with fireballs, we make each AA Magegem power 2 firings. So one Magegem "clip" should power 4 bullets being fired out, matching our 4-bullet clip.
Our AS-R1 isn't that useful yet, but it still has immense amounts of potential. The AS-R2 realizes that potential and makes it actually useful. I definitely think we should do this soon.
Alternatively, I'm thinking maybe a tank or an entirely blastball-rocket-powered aircraft that uses blastballs for UFO-like maneuverability. Something like that.
Post by: helmacon on June 21, 2017, 09:03:48 pm
I was playing X-Com 2 with Long war, and I tend to get a bit, uh... emotional when I play x-com. Sorry for the salt everybody.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 21, 2017, 09:05:54 pm
Post by: helmacon on June 21, 2017, 09:08:54 pm
What if we just summon wasps directly inside their armor.What if we just summon wasps directly inside of them?
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 21, 2017, 09:11:42 pm
What if we just summon wasps directly inside their armor.What if we just summon wasps directly inside of them?
I mean, this is how one uses teleportation as a weapon. You just teleport to you a sliver of organic material, that being part of the brain, causing death. If we summon small bits of something directly into the brains of enemies, even if it was a shorter range mage only spell it would be devastating.
Post by: RAM on June 21, 2017, 10:43:32 pm
As to summoning wasps inside of things? I have been trying to set up long-range, coordinate-based summoning rituals for ages now. If you want I could dig up the wasp ritual. I packed in a lot of self-amusing extras that may not be to everyone's tast. Or maybe I can find the metaconjuration thing for conjuring fireballs spontaneously at long range?
Post by: Andres on June 22, 2017, 03:47:43 am
Future Design: AS-R2 Hybrid RifleDon't call it a "Hybrid Rifle". Just call it an R2. The R stands for Rifle. The simplicity makes it a much more aesthetically pleasing name. Putting Hybrid in the name just because it uses more than a single kind of technology would be pointless, otherwise we'd have to call our axes "hybrid axes" for being part stick and part chopping edge. Same goes for the cannons. Just call them cannons and maybe what kind of cannons they are, such as heavy or medium or light.
A magazine is placed inside the AS-R2 in order to store 4 bullets at a time. After a bullet is shot out, we use our bolt-action breech-loader to have a lever arm be flipped by the user, forcing a new bullet from the magazine into the barrel to be then fired out when ready.Bolt-action is fine. The rest, less so.
Ammunition is loaded via a clip. Four bullets are bundled together via being clipped onto a thin and small crystal bar. Clips are stored on the person and are small+light. They can be very easily and quickly loaded into the magazine from a slot in the top of the gun. The bullets are pushed downwards into the magazine while the crystal bar stays outside, and is then discarded.
Clips are stored in a stylish crystal ammunition "pouch" that will now come standard in Combat Armor. Hopefully.
The Magegem clip has been modified to allow for 2 AA Magegems, and we have optimized both the barrel to maximize pressure and the Blastball's energy usage to allow for 1 AA Magegem to support two SPSF-Cs. We use both our extensive Fireball experience here, and use a slightly less powerful Blastball thanks to the barrel optimizations allowing for increased muzzle velocity from the same pressure.
We considered combining the Magegem and bullet clips, but doing so would make reusing Magegem clips after recharging harder.
The AS-R2's operation is simple. A soldier clips in the Magegem and bullet clips. They can then fire once, quickly pull the lever in roughly two seconds, then fire again. They can repeat this to fire four bullets per clip. They then take out the Magegem clip to store it on their person for later recharge then insert new clips.
The new scope combined with greater accuracy will allow for sniping of the likes we've never seen before. At Extreme range, their commanders will be nearly instantly hit by a sniper using the scope on their AS-R2. Our advances can be shielded from ballistae by having AS-R2 users snipe the ballistae operators. Lightning (and tornadoes) can be easily stopped by sniping the mages. The extremely improved rate of fire will make our longbows effectively obsolete wherever they can be replaced. The AS-R2 will be an extremely versatile weapon of many users, from standard ranged to close combat to sniping to much more.
Clip-loading/Bolt-action - We already essentially have bolt action for breech loading. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480114#msg7480114) We just add an internal magazine loaded via clips of 4 bullets. A bullet is pushed into the breech every time the bolt is opened by the user. Drastically[/I] increasing rate of fire.
2x Magegem Clip/Improved SPSF-C Effiency - We make a single clip holding two wired-together AA Magegems. By decreasing the power needed for the same muzzle velocity through optimizing the barrel and increasing the efficiency of the SPSF-C in general via our experience with fireballs, we make each AA Magegem power 2 firings. So one Magegem "clip" should power 4 bullets being fired out, matching our 4-bullet clip.
Instead, make it a magazine. Magazines are generally more useful than clips, but that's not all. In the magazine are bullets. Simple. The bottom of the magazines will contain AA magegems. Connecting those magegems are circuits. The circuits go up to the top of the magazine, not connected to anything. When the magazine is loaded into the gun, the circuits connect with the gun. When the trigger is pulled, the gun - using the connection attained via the circuits - takes energy from the magegems to fire a bullet. When there are no more bullets, remove the magazine and store it. Take note of how in the firing of the gun, the soldier has to put in and take out only a single magazine, compared to putting in and taking out two clips (one with bullets, the other with magegems). This reduces design complexity and makes reloading faster.
The revision of the SPSF-C is unnecessary and will probably result in failure. ((GM said no to this kind of revision.))
Mathemagics first came into being from crystals. I imagine that we can do a LOT with the basic elements of the crystal spells. I am inclined to think that we could summon somethign with a much higher density than anything related to our current crystals. I wouldn't preclude that it could be a form of crystal, but crystals have a massive tendency to be low-density. I am inclined(And I promise I had this idea last night, before C.W.'s heavy crystals, I am not just making a copy proposal for antagonism, not that there is anything wrong with making proposals inspired by other proposals, just please avoid making them objectively worse versions of the same thing and then take all the votes...) to propose weightite, and extremely dense and hopefully rigid material that is produced from its own version of the crystalworks. I would expect it to be at least twice as heavy as lead. The main point of this would be to use as ballast. We could build ballast beams for ships and cannon-platform foundations to secure our stuff to such that it wouldn't fly off during inclement weather. A tornado would have trouble lifting a lead beam, something with two or three times the density ought to be able to act as ballast enough to chain whatever we want to it and just wait for the nades to pass. It'd also work great for ammunition but we would probably spend two revisions going from steel munitions to weightite core-crystals body, then going all the way to discarded sabot ammunition using some sort of distance-triggered conjuration effect. I very much doubt that we would want to shoot anything much heavier than lead without reducing the launch-heft somehow.Revising crystal for the purpose of making a heavy material is a waste of a revision. The revision can instead be going into improving our Fireballs to blow up the tornadoes, not only dealing with that specific threat, but also giving us bigger Fireballs.
As to summoning wasps inside of things? I have been trying to set up long-range, coordinate-based summoning rituals for ages now. If you want I could dig up the wasp ritual. I packed in a lot of self-amusing extras that may not be to everyone's tast. Or maybe I can find the metaconjuration thing for conjuring fireballs spontaneously at long range?
Summoning is a field we don't have much experience in and we have several goals we'd like to complete first, like removing our designs' reliance on wizards to power them and making it so our designs are not too expensive, buggy, or both. (Our AM shells are still VE, for example.)
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: andrea on June 22, 2017, 03:52:40 am
as in, a dial or control that allow us to change the power of the blastball used.
when sniping at long range they would use maximum setting, but at lower range they may want to reduce magic enery consumption, to get more shots while they don't need extreme muzzle velocity.
Clearly, doesn't work well with the integrated magazine.
Post by: RAM on June 22, 2017, 04:00:44 am
...
We could even try digging tunnels and hiding underground in the hopes that they don't have enough fire to expend all the oxygen at the entrances, not that oxygen depletion can be relied upon to exist...
But a handgun?
Post by: andrea on June 22, 2017, 04:05:50 am
Infantry is not obsolete yet. And if it becomes obsolete, I guess we will not design the rifle.
Post by: Andres on June 22, 2017, 04:11:32 am
have you thought about a fire selector?Too fiddly in practice and ultimately not worth the increased reload speed.
as in, a dial or control that allow us to change the power of the blastball used.
when sniping at long range they would use maximum setting, but at lower range they may want to reduce magic enery consumption, to get more shots while they don't need extreme muzzle velocity.
Clearly, doesn't work well with the integrated magazine.
Is there any reason to believe that small arms will be useful? Cannons can be weighed down enough to survive a tornado, somewhat, especially if they regenerate. Infantry lack the range, mobility, power, and survival to do anything about a high-altitude airship with tornadoes. We could beuilf a high-speed vehicle to close range and evade tornadoes. We could build something heavy and slow and hope that the airships just sit still and wait to get into range. We could attack the underlying principals of their flight and let gravity exterminate entire armies. We could try to fight them in the air where they have all the advantages, but at least we could, theoretically reach them.Handguns in sufficient numbers would murder their carpets. Snipers let us kill their officers and mages. There are not tornadoes everywhere, always, and infantry still plays a role in combat. Buffing our infantry makes us win fights more easily.
...
We could even try digging tunnels and hiding underground in the hopes that they don't have enough fire to expend all the oxygen at the entrances, not that oxygen depletion can be relied upon to exist...
But a handgun?
Also, I really wish everyone would stop talking about avoiding or withstanding their tornadoes. They are not some ultimately unstoppable weapon that we should veer away from. Any sufficiently powerful explosion would destroy them. Just deploy the explosion thing at tornadoes when they appear and that's it. This apparent policy of treating them like they're going to be a permanent part of warfare is useless and wrong.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: andrea on June 22, 2017, 04:17:01 am
There is some research on the matter, but overall it is not so optimistic regarding how easy it is to destroy a tornado .
That said, I agree on not making the tornadoes a tragedy before it happens. Right now they are nice, but not a super murder weapon that kills our armies.
Post by: RAM on June 22, 2017, 04:20:34 am
Apprentices should attempt to employ B.B.s against whirlwinds.
Quote from: orders
0 S.W.W.:Let the vote-wars commence.
0 Don't S.W.W.:
/me gets popcorn.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 22, 2017, 10:15:27 am
Don't call it a "Hybrid Rifle". Just call it an R2. The R stands for Rifle. The simplicity makes it a much more aesthetically pleasing name. Putting Hybrid in the name just because it uses more than a single kind of technology would be pointless, otherwise we'd have to call our axes "hybrid axes" for being part stick and part chopping edge. Same goes for the cannons. Just call them cannons and maybe what kind of cannons they are, such as heavy or medium or light.
1.) The AS-R1 is called "Hybrid Rifle". I'm just keeping the name.
2.) They have magic powering the rifle's mundane way of shooting projectiles. Hybrid.
Bolt-action is fine. The rest, less so.
Instead, make it a magazine. Magazines are generally more useful than clips, but that's not all. In the magazine are bullets. Simple. The bottom of the magazines will contain AA magegems. Connecting those magegems are circuits. The circuits go up to the top of the magazine, not connected to anything. When the magazine is loaded into the gun, the circuits connect with the gun. When the trigger is pulled, the gun - using the connection attained via the circuits - takes energy from the magegems to fire a bullet. When there are no more bullets, remove the magazine and store it. Take note of how in the firing of the gun, the soldier has to put in and take out only a single magazine, compared to putting in and taking out two clips (one with bullets, the other with magegems). This reduces design complexity and makes reloading faster.
The revision of the SPSF-C is unnecessary and will probably result in failure. ((GM said no to this kind of revision.))
1.) I'll think about the magazine part. I still don't really like it though.
2.) When did he say that regarding the SPSF-C? We have extreme experience in this kind of thing, and it's just a very small revision within the scope of the design directly intended to improve an aspect of the design.
I still like my idea of weighted crystal shells. It's a minor crystal tweak (trivial) + material swap (trivial). Reduces the expense of our shells while potentially even making all of them a bit better. Also kind of helps with our supply lines, since mages could summon shells. (It wouldn't be that effective, but summoned shells > no shells and we'd still be relying on actual machined shells.)Mathemagics first came into being from crystals. I imagine that we can do a LOT with the basic elements of the crystal spells. I am inclined to think that we could summon somethign with a much higher density than anything related to our current crystals. I wouldn't preclude that it could be a form of crystal, but crystals have a massive tendency to be low-density. I am inclined(And I promise I had this idea last night, before C.W.'s heavy crystals, I am not just making a copy proposal for antagonism, not that there is anything wrong with making proposals inspired by other proposals, just please avoid making them objectively worse versions of the same thing and then take all the votes...) to propose weightite, and extremely dense and hopefully rigid material that is produced from its own version of the crystalworks. I would expect it to be at least twice as heavy as lead. The main point of this would be to use as ballast. We could build ballast beams for ships and cannon-platform foundations to secure our stuff to such that it wouldn't fly off during inclement weather. A tornado would have trouble lifting a lead beam, something with two or three times the density ought to be able to act as ballast enough to chain whatever we want to it and just wait for the nades to pass. It'd also work great for ammunition but we would probably spend two revisions going from steel munitions to weightite core-crystals body, then going all the way to discarded sabot ammunition using some sort of distance-triggered conjuration effect. I very much doubt that we would want to shoot anything much heavier than lead without reducing the launch-heft somehow.Revising crystal for the purpose of making a heavy material is a waste of a revision. The revision can instead be going into improving our Fireballs to blow up the tornadoes, not only dealing with that specific threat, but also giving us bigger Fireballs.
EDIT: In response to RAM's earlier quote.
Is there any reason to believe that small arms will be useful? Cannons can be weighed down enough to survive a tornado, somewhat, especially if they regenerate. Infantry lack the range, mobility, power, and survival to do anything about a high-altitude airship with tornadoes. We could beuilf a high-speed vehicle to close range and evade tornadoes. We could build something heavy and slow and hope that the airships just sit still and wait to get into range. We could attack the underlying principals of their flight and let gravity exterminate entire armies. We could try to fight them in the air where they have all the advantages, but at least we could, theoretically reach them.
...
We could even try digging tunnels and hiding underground in the hopes that they don't have enough fire to expend all the oxygen at the entrances, not that oxygen depletion can be relied upon to exist...
But a handgun?
Infantry will never be obsolete.
It hasn't been much of a factor recently due to the fact that Moskurg only had an extremely tiny advantage plus how much better our artillery is. If Moskurg actually had a real advantage then we would be feeling it. Combat Armor gives us enough of an advantage combined with crystal weaponry that it's actually playing a factor again.
And regarding things like tornadoes, that's a counterable thing. If they do somehow obsolete an entire section of combat with tornadoes, we can just out-counter them. Sure, they can counter our counter, but if we want infantry combat to be useful again we can push through it.
And even with the state of tornadoes now, I want to make a move towards mechanized infantry. See that vehicle I last posted - in addition to an AS-HAC-1 and HC1-E, it can hold 10 people total. Contrary to what one may expect, every single component in that vehicle is Expensive or below, so making an Expensive APC isn't particularly difficult. With APCs, we can make them too heavy to be picked up by Moskurg's weak tornadoes and have enough armor to shrug off debris impacts (which I believe are the main killer) from the tornadoes. Infantry can ride in them up until they hit Moskurg infantry, where tornadoes can't be used.
Post by: RAM on June 22, 2017, 03:16:02 pm
Tweaking crystal with a good roll will still be something relatively light. Making a new, ultra-dense material will get something that is definitely heavy, and may have extremely good additional properties to boot. Crystals are good because of their low weight, we should focus on that with crystals and try something new for our extreme resilience material rather than trying to stretch crystals to cover all instances. Crystals have done their part, now we need something better, and we can still integrate the lessons that we have learned on materials from crystals, it is not starting from scratch, just drawing up an original design using our existing experience rather than trying to convert an old design into something new. It is like trying to convert an A.P.C. into a tank. You can use your armoured vehicle experience to build a new tank, or you can try to build a tank out of something that has the wrong weight-distribution, inappropriate armouring, no allowances for a large turret and no support for proper seating arrangements along with different agility demands, stability considerations... ... ... You end up with a bad outcome if you try to get one design to do everything.
Post by: Andres on June 22, 2017, 06:06:46 pm
1.) The AS-R1 is called "Hybrid Rifle". I'm just keeping the name.1. The R1 shouldn't have had "Hybrid Rifle" added to its name. The R2 shouldn't have it just because the R1 had it and in fact it should be excluded.
2.) They have magic powering the rifle's mundane way of shooting projectiles. Hybrid.
2. Magic is how we propel all our guns. None of our guns use non-magic propellant. Please stop sticking "hybrid" on anything that does not purely use magic. It's really annoying to see it included in the names of all our guns and I really hate the idea of looking at our list in the future and seeing "hybrid tank, hybrid rifle, hybrid helicopter, hybrid cannon, etc." all because they happen to use fireballs to power them. Please, just drop the name and save it for when it would be actually meaningful. Just as an example, using "hybrid" in the name of a gun that is also a sword would be a meaningful use of the term.
1.) I'll think about the magazine part. I still don't really like it though.1. What's not to like about it? It simplifies the reloading process. That meaning less moving parts - meaning greater reliability and higher chance of design success - and increased reload speed. We could incorporate magazines into things besides bolt-action rifles, such as pistols, assault rifles, and submachine guns. It's logistically easier, because instead of having to make, transport, and keep track of two separate types of clips, you just have one kind of magazine.
2.) When did he say that regarding the SPSF-C? We have extreme experience in this kind of thing, and it's just a very small revision within the scope of the design directly intended to improve an aspect of the design.
By the way, I forgot to mention last time, but I hope you don't mean to make our combat armour have pockets. It would make more sense to give our soldiers stuff to wear over the armour - like bandoleers and vests - instead.
2. Read here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7490815#msg7490815) for my question and this was his response:
1) No.
I still like my idea of weighted crystal shells. It's a minor crystal tweak (trivial) + material swap (trivial). Reduces the expense of our shells while potentially even making all of them a bit better. Also kind of helps with our supply lines, since mages could summon shells. (It wouldn't be that effective, but summoned shells > no shells and we'd still be relying on actual machined shells.)Our blastshells are bottlenecked by the cost of magegems. If all our magegems were cheap, our blastshells would be cheap. Making blastshells out of crystal would still have them be Expensive because a vital component in their design - magegems - are Expensive.
Another thing to consider is that summoned crystal disappears in the presence of anti-magic. Only machined crystal is immune to it. The idea of conjuring crystals is a good one, but the Conjuration magic needed to make it work wouldn't be summoning, it would be teleportation. They'd need to get already-made machined crystal ammo rather than make it themselves.
All that said, I support the idea of a kind of heavier crystal, but only if it's heavy as a compromise to increase its durability. Even then, we currently have little need for crystal of a more durable quality and there are more pressing things which require a Revision.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 22, 2017, 06:27:22 pm
1. The R1 shouldn't have had "Hybrid Rifle" added to its name. The R2 shouldn't have it just because the R1 had it and in fact it should be excluded.
2. Magic is how we propel all our guns. None of our guns use non-magic propellant. Please stop sticking "hybrid" on anything that does not purely use magic. It's really annoying to see it included in the names of all our guns and I really hate the idea of looking at our list in the future and seeing "hybrid tank, hybrid rifle, hybrid helicopter, hybrid cannon, etc." all because they happen to use fireballs to power them. Please, just drop the name and save it for when it would be actually meaningful. Just as an example, using "hybrid" in the name of a gun that is also a sword would be a meaningful use of the term.
1. Well in my opinion it should have.
2. Yes, and our guns are hybrid because they use magic propellant and mundane projectiles/whatever. And as for "hybrid tank, hybrid helicopter, etc.": In the real world, we (mostly) don't name our vehicles after their engines. While the steam engine may be hybrid (magic -> mechanical energy), the vehicle isn't. It just runs off of a hybrid engine. And yes, the steam engine probably would have been called hybrid if I suggested it.
It's not a big deal. I just like having names that are more than one word. "AS-R2 Rifle" doesn't have the same ring to it.
1. What's not to like about it? It simplifies the reloading process. That meaning less moving parts - meaning greater reliability and higher chance of design success - and increased reload speed. We could incorporate magazines into things besides bolt-action rifles, such as pistols, assault rifles, and sub-machine guns. It's logistically easier, because instead of having to make, transport, and keep track of two separate types of clips, you just have one kind of magazine.
By the way, I forgot to mention last time, but I hope you don't mean to make our combat armour have pockets. It would make more sense to give our soldiers stuff to wear over the armour - like bandoleers and jackets - instead.
2. Read here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7490815#msg7490815) for my question and this was his response:1) No.
1.) It's still more complicated involving the process of recharging Magegems. While it is possible to make a single magazine/clip containing both Magegems and bullets, remember that Magegems are reusable while bullets are not. We can make the Magegems detachable/removable/whatever, but in the end it's still adding complexity and still rigid if we ever upgrade our magegems/improve efficiency.
2.) Evicted wasn't responding to a question about an included revision to it. He was answering to this:
With the blastshell, there are two in-design revisions that could've been done, one of which we tried to go for. The first in-design revision could've been making magegems more powerful so we could outfit smaller shells with the designs or make the HA1 ones cheaper. (We did not try to go for this one.) The second in-design revision that could've been making the PSF-C exert a constant force rather than a brief force. (We did in fact try to go for this one.)
If adding an explosive payload would've made the shell too expensive, couldn't the excess success of the 6+1 have gone to achieving one of these two revisions? (The R1 got a 2 to effectiveness but we still got the Fireball revision.) If not, which stats and in what circumstances allow for these in-design revisions to be completed or to spontaneously happen? (A low complexity/ambition design might be it, but to my understanding high complexity/ambition designs just result in lower bonuses/higher DCs.)
First, Evicted also said that the "6+1" is the same as a "6". Your revisions here are also way more ambitious than the "revision" I want to include in mine.
I want to make the SPSF-C slightly more efficient and less powerful (made up by optimizations in the barrel) to allow for 1 Magegem = 2 Charges instead of 1 Magegem = 1 Charge. You wanted for a shell design to improve our magegems or to make a new variant of Blastball that the shell did not need.
And the pouch thing is mostly fluff. It's an extremely tiny """buff""" to Combat Armor if it gets through, and it's minor enough to not increase the complexity of the revision + to just not be included if we get bad rolls.
Our blastshells are bottlenecked by the cost of magegems. If all our magegems were cheap, our blastshells would be cheap. Making blastshells out of crystal would still have them be Expensive because a vital component in their design - magegems - are Expensive.
We already talked about this in the Discord, and evicted said this (and you even responded to it):
Quote from: evictedSaint (Discord)
Honestly, the expense system is a load of crap. A wooden shield runs the risk of being a NE and a top-of-the-line ship has the chance to be Cheap.And this obviously doesn't just apply to rifles.
It'd be easier to make judgement calls, but now we wind up with things using Expensive components that somehow end up cheap.
You can just "make rifles cheaper", yeah. They'll get cheaper despite the gems.
Another thing to consider is that summoned crystal disappears in the presence of anti-magic. Only machined crystal is immune to it. The idea of conjuring crystals is a good one, but the Conjuration magic needed to make it work wouldn't be summoning, it would be teleportation. They'd need to get already-made machined crystal ammo rather than make it themselves.
All that said, I support the idea of a kind of heavier crystal, but only if it's heavy as a compromise to increase its durability. Even then, we currently have little need for crystal of a more durable quality and there are more pressing things which require a Revision.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Well, the conjuration point is true, but it's not the focus of the design. Our mages can already very easily make crystals of any shape. A part of the design is that mages would be able to conjure these crystal shells without any notable amount of effort from us regarding this specifically.
The shells are vulnerable to anti-magic, yes, (and I touched upon this in the Weighted Crystal Shell revision), but that's not the point. Crappy anti-magic vulnerable shells >>>> No shells.
And the point of the revision is not weighted crystal. I don't really care about that. The entire point of the weighted crystal is so we can make our shells crystal without sacrificing anything. Considering we made Crystal Glass as easily as we did with literally zero drawbacks, doing something as minor as making crystal a bit heavier as the main focus of a revision should be easy to do without purposely sacrificing anything.
And we'll see about the revision. The point of Weighted Crystal Shells is to decrease the expense level of all our special shells. We'd get Cheap Range/Explosive ammunition, Expensive Range+Explosive ammunition, and Expensive Equalizers.
Post by: Andres on June 22, 2017, 06:45:36 pm
It's not a big deal. I just like having names that are more than one word. "AS-R2 Rifle" doesn't have the same ring to it.It shouldn't be called an "AS-R2 Rifle", it should just be called an "AS-R2" and that actually has a pretty good ring to it. ((The AK-47 is not called an "AK-47 Assault Rifle" or anything like that, it's just called an AK-47 and it's better for that.))
I am willing to trade you a favour to drop "Hybrid" from your designs and revisions unless it's in an actually meaningful way, i.e. in a manner similar to how I described.
1.) It's still more complicated involving the process of recharging Magegems. While it is possible to make a single magazine/clip containing both Magegems and bullets, remember that Magegems are reusable while bullets are not. We can make the Magegems detachable/removable/whatever, but in the end it's still adding complexity and still rigid if we ever upgrade our magegems/improve efficiency.I don't see how it would make it any more complicated to recharge. Instead of taking out the magegem clip from the gun to recharge the magegems, you take out the magazine from the gun to recharge the magegems in it. That magegems are reusable and bullets aren't doesn't really matter. Our men wouldn't be forced to throw away their magazine just because they once held bullets or anything.
Our mages can already very easily make crystals of any shape.This, to my knowledge, is not true. As I understand it, they can only make lances, axes, and caltrops.
Future Revision: Crystal Weight/Durability Selection
This is a revision of our crystalworks. Since we invented transparent crystal, our crystalworks has made different kinds of crystal. Transparent crystal was the first crystal variant, but the crystal now used to make our magegems is another example. Now, we give our crystalworks a new capability - allowing it to change the weight of our crystal to alter its durability and vice-versa.
Let's say, for example, that 10 cm of our crystal weighs 10 kg and has 10 units of durability. Currently, our crystalworks can only make that kind of crystal. With this revision, our crystalworks can now make that crystal weigh less or more for less/more durability. It could, for example make crystal where 10 cm weighs 5 kg and thus has only 5 units of durability, or it can make that crystal where 10 cm weighs 20 km and has 20 units of durability. It's not limited to those types, being capable of making 10/3/3 crystal, 10/7/7 crystal, 10/15/15 crystal, and more.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 22, 2017, 07:01:34 pm
It shouldn't be called an "AS-R2 Rifle", it should just be called an "AS-R2" and that actually has a pretty good ring to it. ((The AK-47 is not called an "AK-47 Assault Rifle" or anything like that, it's just called an AK-47 and it's better for that.))Sure. But I'm still finding a word to replace Hybrid.
I am willing to trade you a favour to drop "Hybrid" from your designs and revisions unless it's in an actually meaningful way, i.e. in a manner similar to how I described.
This, to my knowledge, is not true. As I understand it, they can only make lances, axes, and caltrops.Okay, let me change that.
Our wizards can very easily summon crystal objects once we make the shape. Which is very easy to do, but we still have to do it. The shape's covered by the material swap of the Weighted Crystal Shell revision.
Future Revision: Crystal Weight/Durability SelectionSeems... unnecessary.
This is a revision of our crystalworks. Since we invented transparent crystal, our crystalworks has made different kinds of crystal. Transparent crystal was the first crystal variant, but the crystal now used to make our magegems is another example. Now, we give our crystalworks a new capability - allowing it to change the weight of our crystal to alter its durability and vice-versa.
Let's say, for example, that 10 cm of our crystal weighs 10 kg and has 10 units of durability. Currently, our crystalworks can only make that kind of crystal. With this revision, our crystalworks can now make that crystal weigh less or more for less/more durability. It could, for example make crystal where 10 cm weighs 5 kg and thus has only 5 units of durability, or it can make that crystal where 10 cm weighs 20 km and has 20 units of durability. It's not limited to those types, being capable of making 10/3/3 crystal, 10/7/7 crystal, 10/15/15 crystal, and more.
Precedent (Combat Armor) has shown we can very easily modify crystal as needed. A revision like this wastes an action doing nothing when we can already modify the nature of crystal easily.
Post by: Andres on June 22, 2017, 07:16:13 pm
Sure. But I'm still finding a word to replace Hybrid.That defeats the purpose of my request. I'm not going to give you any favour if you do something like swap the name to something equivalent like "Combination" or something.
Seems... unnecessary.We can only modify the crystal to a single set as is. For example, if we were revising our plate armour to use crystal and to use a heavier, more durable version of crystal, our crystalworks would from them on be able to produce that new heavier, more durable crystal but that's it for new types of crystal. Similarly, if we want to revise something to use crystal instead of metal and we want the crystal to be lighter, we would get a new kind of lighter crystal, but that's the only new kind of crystal we get.
Precedent (Combat Armor) has shown we can very easily modify crystal as needed. A revision like this wastes an action doing nothing when we can already modify the nature of crystal easily.
This revision obsoletes that kind of revision, giving us crystal of any weight or durability we want. It means anything which uses crystal would be improved by using whatever type of crystal would be optimal for them. This is best for guns and engines as they could user lighter or heavier crystal for their parts, resulting in a design with optimal weight/durability no matter what.
It also means we need to do less when we make designs and means we need to revise less. Right now, if we design a tank and we want to make its crystal armour more durable than our standard crystal, doing that crystal would increase design complexity. With the crystalworks revision, we'd waste no time on developing a new type of crystal, we'd just find the optimal weight/protection for its crystal armour and apply it. This crystalworks revision also means that designing/revising faster/more durable tanks wouldn't be required - we'd just make the same kind of tank but with lighter/heavier crystal for its armour.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 22, 2017, 07:20:52 pm
That defeats the purpose of my request. I'm not going to give you any favour if you do something like swap the name to something equivalent like "Combination" or something.Not combination. "AS-R2 Infantry Rifle" or "AS-R2 Precision Rifle" or "AS-R2 Self-loading Rifle". Something like that. I want a more formal name to use in situations, even if "AS-R2" is used the majority of the time.
We can only modify the crystal to a single set as is. For example, if we were revising our plate armour to use crystal and to use a heavier, more durable version of crystal, our crystalworks would from them on be able to produce that new heavier, more durable crystal but that's it for new types of crystal. Similarly, if we want to revise something to use crystal instead of metal and we want the crystal to be lighter, we would get a new kind of lighter crystal, but that's the only new kind of crystal we get.If you make immediate benefits clear and explicit, then maybe. I'm sure Evicted isn't a particularly big fan of getting nebulous improvements and being expected to apply benefits wherever it seems to apply.
This revision obsoletes that kind of revision, giving us crystal of any weight or durability we want. It means anything which uses crystal would be improved by using whatever type of crystal would be optimal for them. This is best for guns and engines as they could user lighter or heavier crystal for their parts, resulting in a design with optimal weight/durability no matter what.
It also means we need to do less when we make designs and means we need to revise less. Right now, if we design a tank and we want to make its crystal armour more durable than our standard crystal, doing that crystal would increase design complexity. With the crystalworks revision, we'd waste no time on developing a new type of crystal, we'd just find the optimal weight/protection for its crystal armour and apply it. This crystalworks revision also means that designing/revising faster/more durable tanks wouldn't be required - we'd just make the same kind of tank but with lighter/heavier crystal for its armour.
Post by: RAM on June 22, 2017, 07:30:05 pm
Let's say, for example, that 10 cm of our crystal weighs 10 kg and has 10 units of durability. Currently, our crystalworks can only make that kind of crystal. With this revision, our crystalworks can now make that crystal weigh less or more for less/more durability. It could, for example make crystal where 10 cm weighs 5 kg and thus has only 5 units of durability, or it can make that crystal where 10 cm weighs 20 km and has 20 units of durability. It's not limited to those types, being capable of making 10/3/3 crystal, 10/7/7 crystal, 10/15/15 crystal, and more.I would just like to say that those numbers are terrible. I assume that they are just hypothetical examples, but it needs to be nipped in the bud before anyone starts citing the specific numbers mentioned.
As for the theory? It is not terrible. Adjusting crystals would help. I doubt that we would get a fair trade. We are probably already pushing the limits of how light it can get with anywhere near this level of strength, but who knows. As for heavier? I feel that heavier would be better done with other things.
If we could get a material that is, say, four or five times as dense as steel, then that would be useful for ammunition and ballast. Assuming that it has any half-decent material properties, then it would also be great for heavy armour and extreme-resistance needs. And given that this is all based upon conjuration, and we have already seen how easy it is to tweak things with the wasps into fire wasps, it should be no more than a design to get a superior original material. The hard work of making it permanent has already been addressed so it should be easy.
Crystal on the other hand would be based upon the original crystals. Getting them to the density of steel would be difficult, and they would not necessarily keep their proportional strength. No dount it would be an excellent replacement for steel, but we do already have steel, and the lack of depleted uranium bullets and titanium armour is more of a hole than the lack of rigid steel.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 22, 2017, 08:06:27 pm
Currently, the survival rate of injured soldiers is not great. Our methods of surgery are iffy at best. If you('re somehow out of your Combat Armor and) get an arrow lodged in your chest or get bludgeoned or electrocuted or another one of the very standard battlefield injuries, you're practically out of luck. We may have great protective measures, but our practices when those measures fail leave much to be desired.
Introducing Regenerate, a spell based off of our old life magic.
Regenerate is an over-time spell targeted at a nearby individual. When an individual is targeted with the spell, their wounds and ailments will begin to heal and patch themselves before the person's very eyes. Bones will mend, flesh will regenerate, and more. Even wounds and ailments not visible to the eye or unable to be diagnosed by our physicians can be healed with this spell.
The spell is largely time-based. A number of seconds can heal scratches and help a critical patient survive a bit longer. Minutes can be used to heal minor but notable bleeding wounds and stabilize critical patients. At around ten minutes, we can begin healing more moderate wounds. After half an hour, most will be ready to fight again and critical patients will be able to be reliably left alone. An hour is where the serious stuff happens. Organ damage will see regeneration, bones will begin to come back together, and more.
Someone with minutes or even seconds to live can be placed under constant Regeneration-based care for most of a day and be able to walk around and talk by the end of that day. Disabled patients and those with more long-term wounds are to be placed under Regeneration therapy on-and-off over several days.
As our apprentices aren't unlimited, Regeneration care in controlled settings such as clinics and field hospitals is priority based. Critical patients will be tended until stabilized, and those with long-term but non-serious injuries will be waiting for quite a while. Most with non-life-threatening wounds are expected to be cleared for duty by the end of the day. Critical patients and those with very serious wounds are expected to stay overnight for as long as needed, even up to a week. People with disabilities and similar injuries will be tended as manpower becomes available and can expect stays of at least one week, if not more.
Unless someone has a life-threatening injury at one of our (field) hospitals, they can expect to receive periodic on-off care when apprentices become available.
On the field, Regeneration is a different story. Our apprentices and wizards will be trusted to use it as they see fit depending on how much time they have left. In emergency situations, someone can be stabilized then brought back to the nearest field hospital for further care. In places such as trenches or long-term deployments, wizards are expected to heal others to the best of their capabilities.
Regeneration on oneself is possible, provided the self-healing mage is able to sufficiently concentrate.
Regeneration is also hoped to be used sparingly in civilian hospitals. Those unable to be helped by our mundane doctors will be handled by apprentices doing their civic duty as part of the academy. Critical patients will be stabilized and some of the more lucky disabled/long-term-injury individuals can have long-term regenerative therapy scheduled.
Regeneration should be a game-changed on the battlefield. It may not directly counter anything, but using it will reduce the impact of literally any weapon the enemy has. Sure, they may have lightning or tornadoes, but what use is it if we can simply heal the victim right back up and send them out again? It may not be all that impressive, but it'll help us immensely in every field.
TL;DR: A healing spell. Can heal simple wounds + stabilize critical patients fairly quickly, and can do miracle-like work over the course of hours. To be used by our field hospitals and in the field, as well as in our cities.
Difficulty - It's a new thing, sure, but we really shouldn't be getting many if any penalties for it. It's based off of life magic. Sure, magically provoking the growing of plants isn't the same thing as flesh, but that's the point of the design. We're not venturing into the unknown or trying a completely new field of tech. This shouldn't really be hard. But I'm not expecting boosts, of course.
Post by: Andres on June 22, 2017, 08:43:58 pm
If we could get a material that is, say, four or five times as dense as steel, then that would be useful for ammunition and ballast. Assuming that it has any half-decent material properties, then it would also be great for heavy armour and extreme-resistance needs. And given that this is all based upon conjuration, and we have already seen how easy it is to tweak things with the wasps into fire wasps, it should be no more than a design to get a superior original material. The hard work of making it permanent has already been addressed so it should be easy.The numbers were just hypothetical examples.
Crystal on the other hand would be based upon the original crystals. Getting them to the density of steel would be difficult, and they would not necessarily keep their proportional strength. No dount it would be an excellent replacement for steel, but we do already have steel, and the lack of depleted uranium bullets and titanium armour is more of a hole than the lack of rigid steel.
As for the theory? It is not terrible. Adjusting crystals would help. I doubt that we would get a fair trade. We are probably already pushing the limits of how light it can get with anywhere near this level of strength, but who knows. As for heavier? I feel that heavier would be better done with other things.Crystal is a wonder material made of magic. We can assign it whatever properties we want as a result so long as we put in the Revision to make it so. Making a new material is unnecessary, does not benefit from our crystalworks, and would not get a bonus due to us never having worked with it and due to not getting the +1 that all crystal-related rolls get.
If we could get a material that is, say, four or five times as dense as steel, then that would be useful for ammunition and ballast. Assuming that it has any half-decent material properties, then it would also be great for heavy armour and extreme-resistance needs. And given that this is all based upon conjuration, and we have already seen how easy it is to tweak things with the wasps into fire wasps, it should be no more than a design to get a superior original material. The hard work of making it permanent has already been addressed so it should be easy.
Crystal on the other hand would be based upon the original crystals. Getting them to the density of steel would be difficult, and they would not necessarily keep their proportional strength. No dount it would be an excellent replacement for steel, but we do already have steel, and the lack of depleted uranium bullets and titanium armour is more of a hole than the lack of rigid steel.
The crystalworks revision would let us get crystal four or five times as dense as steel and in doing so also proportionally increase its durability. Also, remember that the "hard work of making it permanent" only applies to crystal, thanks to our crystalworks. This new material of yours would need a Design to be made and then another Design to make a factory for it.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on June 22, 2017, 09:20:34 pm
Regeneration is also derived from the summoning practices rather than the material itself, so that should not be lost either.
But I suppose that it might be plausible that crystals could be four or five times as dense as steel, or about 10-15 times as dense as it currently is. It seems like it is pushing things a bit too far to me, magic seems to like its consistency afterall, and crystal is seen as 'light', but it is not impossible. I guess the major point is if we want this new material to have the same properties as crystal, that being rigidity. I think that perhaps the new material might want something different, like conductivity, such that you can't do much to any one part without doing it to the whole thing. I feel that applying the same properties to the light material and the heavy material would be crossing purposes.
And, again, I feel that making arbitrary adjustments to crystal density is more difficult than you imagine. It would be relatively easy to swap the signage on the charges to produce antimatter, raising the density of the material would require increasing its complexity, adjusting its scale, enlarging its componentswithout changing its structure, increasing the magnitude of its fundamental components... No matter how you look at it, it is going to be a pain to do that.
I feel that increasing the density of naturally light crystal is much more difficult than deriving a new material from the same conjuration processes that is naturally dense. I do not feel that any of the advantages of crystal would be lost except for those that are intrinsic to the material's own properties, which does not apply to regeneration nor production bonuses(Though it is very possible that denser material, regardless of whether it is crystal or not, would require more magic to produce.). I also like the idea that their properties could be combined by using an overlayed summoning that would fill in the low-density material's low density with the high-density material(That is, filling it in, not alloying... More like reinforcing concrete and less like mixing concrete...). Finally, I think that we could really benefit from the experience in new conjurations, rather than trying to squeeze ever more-and-more precise refinements out of crystals.
Post by: Andres on June 23, 2017, 03:51:12 am
Also worth considering with your material is that, when designing the crystalclad, it was noted that it's very tricky getting it to work right with other materials, which is why there's no metal or wood in the design. That's another reason to revise crystal rather than make a new material, among others.
It's better if we try to use crystal as much as we can for our material needs. The more we do, the more experience we get with the material and the more bonuses we get involving it. This strategy worked extremely well for us in regards to the fireball and it's a strategy we would do well to replicate with crystal.
Post by: RAM on June 23, 2017, 04:33:25 am
It is about time that we just arbitrarily negate all their stuff by asking nicely...
Fair-day cageWe can maybe get experience from the frost towers as a large edifice and conjuration on the basis of arbitrarily imposing our will to directly make things exist... and also circuits help, but we really need to formalise that into ritual magic for massive undertakings.
An intricate metal box formed of untold thousands of subtle wire patterns, studded with innumerable gems and intricate spell-work. It accumulates the weather-based desires of all the surrounding soldiers and uses them to summon forth their ideal weather conditions, which typically involve the absence of lightning... national effort wish-granting magic
Or just tweak the frost towers into convection-powered air-removers.
Post by: Andres on June 23, 2017, 04:42:22 am
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on June 23, 2017, 04:19:17 pm
Post by: helmacon on June 23, 2017, 05:04:32 pm
((What's the kegger slur for us?))
Post by: evictedSaint on June 23, 2017, 05:25:59 pm
Also, votes locked.
Post by: Kadzar on June 24, 2017, 06:48:19 pm
Did I mention how I love that we even have our own slurs for the enemy here? Honestly, it's the community that nights these arms race games.((Moskegger))
((What's the kegger slur for us?))
Post by: evictedSaint on June 27, 2017, 10:40:55 pm
Moskurg spends their design this year matching Arstotzka's Academy for Adequate Apprenticeship with their own university, the Moskurg Apprentice Gramary for Inter-magical Competency. Unlike the AAAA, which gathers anyone from the country side with even the most remote ability to cast magic, the MAGIC uses Moskurg's mind-bending abilities to transfer some of the knowledge and skill from their more advanced wizards to their less-skilled apprentices. The result is more higher-leveled apprentices, many of whom are Wizard-Level in skill. They don't have any more magic-users than before, but they do have more skilled users now. They spend their revision once again improving their control over the fickle force of nature that has been their main-stay for the past few turns. Titled "Heretics Fallacy", this frightening spell allows user to exert greater control over where and how lightning strikes. They can't force it to perform impossible tasks, but they can encourage it to flow through an Arstotzkan soldier rather than down a lightning rod.
Arstotzka spends their design delving into new ammo types. Titled "Blastshells" after the spell developed to power their weapons without steam, these shells have a hollow tube down the center. A circuit-scroll with magegems powering it can be inserted into the shell before firing, allowing for an additional fireblast spell to occur in a directed fashion on firing for additional range, or to occur in an undirected fashion upon landing. The shell could conceivably do both, but then becomes another level expensive. For their revision, they improve their magegems to hold more power per size. Using a new crystal-glass formula, these batteries hold a considerably higher amount of magical energy while remaining the same size. Most frightening of all, these batteries could conceivably allow mundane troops to use magic! For the moment, the main use is in their R1, which is juuust cheap enough that their commanders can be outfitted with one if they so choose to carry it.
The jungle is non-stop explosions.
Finally an ammo type that fills the gap they've so desperately been needing, Arstotzka's blastshells are devastating. Where before they could rely on massed pin-point firing events to score some casualties, their explosive shells turn out to be a beautiful, deadly weapon that makes it nearly impossible to not score a hit...assuming their artillery is dialed in to the correct location. The smaller size of their gems allows the majority of their shells to be out-fitted with the -E variant of their circuit-scroll cores, and without al-Mutriqa to harass the supply lines the cannons can fire these shells all day long. The jungle, which had at one point been seeing the Moskurg soldiers push back north, is filled with splintered trees and craters. Marching forward is not an option for Moskurg, as any man who enters the range of Arstotzka's HA1's can expect explosive fury to rain from the heavens. Even standing off at long range doesn't really help, as it's not uncommon for longer-ranged shells to come crashing down out of nowhere. They even explode sometimes, too, although that's far rarer.
Moskurg can do little - their tornados require line-of-sight to work, and they can't get into line-of-sight without exploding into chunks. The sudden increase in R1 rifles means their unarmored carpet riders can expect dozens of shots to come in any time they get in range. They can't drop firestorm grenades any more, although they can still call down lightning. The fact that it can now kill soldiers is a relief, because otherwise there'd be no way to really hit back. The Alsamma Safina airship can't even use its ballista any more - the increased range means that Arsotzka's cannons can now occasionally shoot one down at extreme range. These shots are often horribly inaccurate, and generally don't do much damage unless they also explode on impact. But if they do hit and they do explode, the airship comes down in a mess of Adamantium, junglewood, and carpets.
Moskurg does control the Western Sea, however, and they do their best landing behind enemy lines and disrupting supply lines when they can. It's not enough to stop the Arstotzkan war machine, but it does help.
The battle is decisively in Arstotzka's favor. Arstotzka pushes Moskurg back and gains a section of jungle.
Arstotzka gains a section of jungle.
al-Mutriqa does his due diligence here in the plains.
Aside from educating fresh young minds back in the capitol, he spends nearly every waking moment out on his War Pegasi, harassing enemy troops and derailing trains. The derailed trains hurts Arstotzka here pretty badly - the trains are unarmed and full of valuable artillery shells (although they have the sense not to transport the gems charged, meaning no messy explosion). Without frequent supply drops, the HA1's must annoyingly fall silent every so often. This is a god-send for Moskurg soldiers who've taken to ducking in their trenches every time they hear a noise.
Even though the fire rate is reduced, Moskurg still suffers. Carpet riders can't get close without being shot at, and they're too slow and too unarmored to survive a thumb-sized bullet going through their lamellar armor or carpet. The Airships aren't able to provide covering fire without being slammed with every cannon in range, and Moskurg can't do much beyond cede ground at an alarming rate.
Despite al-Mutriqa's best efforts, Arstotzka leap-frogs trenchlines on their way south.
Arstotzka gains a section of the plains.
The desert isn't much different.
Arstotzka relies entirely on their cannons, and without a need for water there's very little that can be done to stop them. The most detrimental thing to their progress south is the difficulty in keeping their cannons supplied. Moskurg knows the lands better, owns the nearby ocean, and is experienced in fighting wide-open areas, but they don't have the temperature advantage which hurts. Their air power still can't help beyond carpet-riders casting lightning from far-off, and Arstotzkan soldiers tend to do better when melee occurs. Arstotzkan commanders generally keep their rifles slung except for when they see a carpet over head, as the reloading action takes too long to make it particularly useful in the field. They instead default to using their crystal axes along with the rest of their men. The melee's are close, but they tend to go in Arstotzka's favor more often than not.
Against all odds, Arstotzka does the impossible and firmly takes hold of Moskurgs homelands.
Arstotzka gains a section of the desert.
In the Western ocean, Myark continues his sea campaign and succeeds in pushing a section of the coastline back.
Now that the HA1's have a reason to exist on ships, several of the Crystalclads are retrofitted with a single HA1 rather than their normal compliment of three HC1-E's. It's large and the ships don't move particularly fast, but they now have a way of hitting the Airships that were devastatingly effective on the seas. As soon as an Alsamma Safina appears on the horizon, every heavy artillery ship turns about and begins firing. Without air support, Sirocco's are thoroughly outclassed. Carpet riders are the only things that stand a chance, and even then Myark is uncannily accurate with his rifle.
The Eastern sea sees Moskurg do a little better, but it's not enough. It's not nearly enough.
Arstotzka gains a section of the Eastern and Western Seas.
Research Credit!!!
Spoiler: Bjorn's Thesis (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Hayat's Thesis (click to show/hide)
It's come time for the heirs to present their Thesis and undergo examination, to see if they are truly worthy of the title of 'Wizard'. Unbeknownst to each other, both heirs present their thesis at the same time to their respective council of esteemed wizardly professors.
Bjorn's thesis delves into the concept of a second reality, removed from our own, known as the 'Aether'. His thesis speculates on the potential possibility of drawing power from this realm by artificially recreating the link all mages make when casting. To this end, he presents what he proudly refers to as an "Aethergem" construct. It consists of lots and lots of copper circuit scrolls, anti-magic gems, magegems, and a small hamster on a spinning wheel. Unfortunately he can't exactly get the device to work; whether the hamster wasn't running fast enough or whether it never worked at all isn't quite clear, but everyone agrees that it's quite impressive and he gains his diploma.
Hayat's thesis involves a rather unusual application of the Wand of Thunderbolts. Rather than using it to kill Arstotzkans, her thesis concerns how one may use it to instead produce the light. The board of professors is quick to point out that a blast of lightning already produces light, but she demonstrates her point by presenting a small, bulbous device powered by a wand. It produces a surprising amount of light in a non-destructive manner, at least until the glass surprisingly shatters after a few minutes. Still, everyone agrees that it was quite impressive and she gains her diploma.
The fact that Hayat managed to produce a working model of something that doesn't explode [on purpose] is enough to reduce loudly dissenting nobles to mild grumbling, securing Hayat's position as heir for a bit longer.
Unfortunately for Bjorn, his thesis ended up being too theoretical and not providing a more tangible result. Considering his thesis consisted largely of stating what had already been accomplished by others rather than focusing on his own achievements, many accuse him of spending more time reading than actually working - something which his detractors quickly point to as an example of him being "a fuckin' nerd" and thus unfit to lead through strength as his father had. The minor chief they'd been supporting, Sweyn Hardrada, assures everyone that he still stands by his oath and will support the King, but the fact that he doesn't explicitly state he'd support Bjorn as well leads to much tension among the royal court.
Arstotzka will gain a +1 to effectiveness for their next design involving gems.
Moskurg will gain a +1 to effectiveness for their next design involving mundane applications of lightning, and gain a Research Credit as well.
Revision Credit!!!
Now that both heirs are full-fledged wizards, it's time for them to prove their might on the battlefield. Both will fight for their countries this year, leading a small squad of hand-picked wizards to help prove themselves in battle. They'll be well protected, of course, but accidents have been known to happen on the battlefield...
Pick the area in which your heir will be fighting this year. If you lose ground in this area, your heir may become injured...or worse. If you gain ground, your heir may learn enough to apply their knowledge next year to help the nation's magical advancements through a Revision Credit.
It is 942, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 942 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Behavior Rules. Please Read.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 27, 2017, 11:02:52 pm
If we have steel external armor with cooling circuits and crystal inside it should allow it to survive a large amount of damage by lightning. We would need one or two mages inside the thing to power and repair it but even a slow one with heavy armor carrying like 8-10 soldiers would be devastating. Extra armor would only add weight also, steel and crystal should both be cheap enough, and allow it to not be knocked around by tornadoes or be penetrated by bolts or flying debris.
As an alternative, some kind of strong magic shielding spell might be good, but that veers into new magic territory.
Post by: Andres on June 27, 2017, 11:15:24 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on June 27, 2017, 11:18:38 pm
Edit: Fixed.
Post by: Andres on June 27, 2017, 11:24:52 pm
Post by: RAM on June 28, 2017, 12:40:04 am
control over where and how lightning strikes. They can't force it to perform impossible tasks, but they can encourage it to flow through an Arstotzkan soldier rather than down a lightning rod.Just for my own peace-of-mind, I am just going to say that it is easier to get lightning to travel horizontally than to go through a human when there is a nice, tasty metal rod sitting next to them just oozing with conduction and capacity. I dare say it would even be easier to get lighting to go through an S-bend. There, I have said it, now I can happily go back to playing in a fictional setting!
Devumes
These small flowering annuals have had their nature magically attuned to gems. By carefully making an incision and implanting a gem into the bulb prior to planting, the plant channels minerals and magic from the environment into the gem and causes the gem to grow at a miraculous pace(for gems). Thus, when the bulb is harvested, the gem has become much larger. These large gems can be used for all existing gemcraft, allowing larger versions or cutting these larger gems to make smaller gemcrafts more numerous. With this we will finally be free of the yoke of being forced to mine for new gems, we simply need to preserve enough to maintain a steady harvest.
Of course, one can also apply dogwood staves to accelerate this effect...
Our batteries are still too small. Our plants are still too simple. This could lead to battery-chargers... Also, we ought to do more with gems, like, elemental gems to boost our elemental spells or focus gems to improve a mage's skill or something...
Post by: Andres on June 28, 2017, 01:31:50 am
DevumesWe don't mine magegems. Our crystalworks now make them.
These small flowering annuals have had their nature magically attuned to gems. By carefully making an incision and implanting a gem into the bulb prior to planting, the plant channels minerals and magic from the environment into the gem and causes the gem to grow at a miraculous pace(for gems). Thus, when the bulb is harvested, the gem has become much larger. These large gems can be used for all existing gemcraft, allowing larger versions or cutting these larger gems to make smaller gemcrafts more numerous. With this we will finally be free of the yoke of being forced to mine for new gems, we simply need to preserve enough to maintain a steady harvest.
Of course, one can also apply dogwood staves to accelerate this effect...
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on June 28, 2017, 01:35:10 am
Post by: evictedSaint on June 28, 2017, 01:39:57 am
It's secret so Moskurg wont find out about it. So secret, in fact, that Arstotzka can't afford to risk it getting out, which is why I'm not allowed to tell you guys exactly how they're made or how they work. Just....pretend a "wizard did it", if you wanna know that sort of stuff.
Post by: RAM on June 28, 2017, 01:48:06 am
Post by: Andres on June 28, 2017, 02:12:45 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 28, 2017, 02:25:16 am
Linked Mage Gems
A double sized mage gem is created and then charged in a linking process with a mage. While this is happening the mage gem is carefully split, retaining the same charge as a normal mage gem, but a link remains between the two halves. Magic put in one moves to the other one until they even out, allowing these gems to be charged at a distance. The link remains no matter the distance, but the transfer rate drops off significantly at extreme ranges.
Then again I want an APC so we can make a self propelled cannon later.
AS-APC-41 War Wagon
A large, heavily armored crystal wagon that is powered by a blast engine which turns the wheels. It has a double layered armor of steel over crystal with cooling circuits in between. The steel-cooler attracts and cools down any lighting effect while the thicker crystal layer blunts any projectiles. It requires a crew of two mages, one to power and steer it and another to repair and maintain the cooling circuits and crystal. The passenger compartment can hold ten armed and armored soldiers or can be used to haul supplies behind the front lines. The mages can probably be apprentices due to the relatively low level spells needed to drive the thing.
Edit:
GM, would our commanders prefer an APC to get our infantry into the fight more safely or would they prefer accurate bolt-action rifles with the choice of a scope?
The problem with our rifles isn't the accuracy, it is availability right now. We just do not have enough gems to keep the rifle in operation. Although more accurate rifles would make the sniper teams and commanders more effective I guess.
Post by: helmacon on June 28, 2017, 02:39:19 am
Also, idea.
The thesis was on replicating the link with the aether that our mages naturally posses. Given a few improvements to our mind magic, it might be possible to make a sort of "mage crown" that links aether gems into the mind of a normal solder, letting them act as a mage despite the lack of a natural magical connection.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 28, 2017, 02:55:54 am
We have a mage gem bonus, but I think we should concentrate on making an APC.I'm sorry, why are we even considering steel? Steel should be a banned word in Arstotzka at this point. It's been well established that Crystal is a very good conductor of energy, electrical or magical. And we also have the electricity-resistant form of crystal (which needs extra precautions to resist lightning). The only thing you could say Steel beats Crystal at is in brittleness, but the difference is rather minor and beat practically by every other advantage of crystal.
If we have steel external armor with cooling circuits and crystal inside it should allow it to survive a large amount of damage by lightning. We would need one or two mages inside the thing to power and repair it but even a slow one with heavy armor carrying like 8-10 soldiers would be devastating. Extra armor would only add weight also, steel and crystal should both be cheap enough, and allow it to not be knocked around by tornadoes or be penetrated by bolts or flying debris.
As an alternative, some kind of strong magic shielding spell might be good, but that veers into new magic territory.
Anyways.
We have the advantage in explosive ammunition. Moskurg's going to need to either counter EA or try to introduce a new aspect of the battlefield to them. Sure, we could improve our designs or make EA even better, but we need to beat them to the punch. Make something so even if they somehow completely counter EA they've wasted their time. Compound our advantage.
So let's try this:
Design: AS-LFV-1 "Protector"
Land Fighting Vehicle
We aim to change the nature of warfare. Our troops are constantly barraged by ballistae, fire, lightning, tornadoes, and more. Their effectiveness in combat one-on-one may be superior to Moskurg's pathetic "soldiers", but we need to get them to the battlefield in the first place. Then, once transported, what if we enhanced our soldiers' fighting capabilities even further? By introducing the AS-LFV-1 Protector, we can accomplish this.
The Protector is naturally an all-crystal construction. It uses heavy armor that can effortlessly shrug off ballistae bolts. The armor should also be able to easily resist debris from tornadoes and the weight will prevent the Protector from being picked up in tornadoes. Layered insulating/conducting crystal armor presents an evolution to our prior lightning rods - lightning flows to the ground through a conductive upper layer to the ground while the electricity-resistant lower layer prevents the electricity from entering the cabin. The best part is its simplicity. It's a matter of flipping a switch in the Crystalworks for us, but it makes Moskurg lightning useless. They may be able to jump from rod to soldier, but against the Protector there's no other place to go.
The whole creation makes liberal use of Crystal Glass - the front of the cabin is nearly entirely Crystal Glass and a fairly large horizontal stripe of the crystal glass extends across the whole vehicle, allowing for unprecedented visibility.
The driver is situated at the front-left side of the Protector, where a Crystal Glass "bubble" just very slightly protrudes from the rest of the hull. The driver sits here where he uses levers to steer the vehicle. The steam engine powering the entire creation is placed alongside the center of the vehicle. Seats are placed alongside the cabin's inner walls, all facing the cabin. There are 8 passenger seats in total, each one fitting a soldier in full combat gear.
A large door on the back of the vehicle lowers into a ramp allowing soldiers to easily depart behind the vehicle and away from immediate enemy fire. A secured hatch on the top allows for entry from the top in case the back is blocked or for apprentices to cast magic. Like flares.
Cooling circuits across the cabin keep it at a constant temperature despite outside environmental conditions. Cooling circuits are something we can do without an additional thought. We already put them on all our cannons and the steam engine and other things without a thought. Putting them here should be zero extra effort.
Ventilation is added across the vessel in a style similar to combat armor preventing it from becoming a weakness. Fire won't harm the vehicle as it can't asphyxiate such a large vessel and because of crystal and the cooling circuits.
The steam engine is upgraded with our Blastballs, skipping the expensive and large boiler component. The engine's power is greatly increased, allowing the Protector to exceed a horse in speed!
The Protector is equipped with two weapons: A HC1-E located on the front-right side of the vehicle and an AS-HAC-1 on the top. The HC1-E is largely placed behind the armor, with just the barrel sticking out. The HC1-E does have limited swivel capabilities based on our existing mechanical knowledge, but generally relies on the vehicle quickly manuevering for aiming.
The AS-HAC-1 however retains it's swiveling mount. A "bubble" of crystal glass, like the one used to minor extent in the driver's seat, extends upward from the center of the hull towards the front side. The AS-HAC-1 is just outside the bubble but a hatch in the bubble allows for easy and quick reloading, and the gears controlling the AS-HAC-1's rotation are located inside the bubble.
AA Magegems in crystal ports allow for operation of the vehicle and cannons without an apprentice directly charging the weapons or steam engine. The steam engine's increased efficiency and our better Magegems allow for operation of the vehicle for hours without an apprentice inside. The weapons should be fired sparingly without an Apprentice charging it, but they can still be very useful without an apprentice. We aim to fit in as many AA Magegems as possible without increasing the Expense of the vehicle.
Furthermore, we've also created a variant of insulating crystal that uses the principles we've already been using with insulated crystal and the new Magegems and applies them to magic. The magic-insulating (not anti-magic) crystal will be used to prevent our circuits from becoming nonfunctional in anti-magic fields, allowing for the AS-LFV-1 Protector to operate normally in anti-magic fields.
The cabin has space for 10 men, including the driver and HC1-E operator. The AS-HAC-1 is designed to be operated by one of the passengers.
The Protector will be groundbreaking. No longer will countless soldiers die in the fields on their way to battle. Our soldiers will arrive in their lines unharmed en masse, unaffected by Moskurg's many anti-infantry weapons. Then our infantry will be supported by close-range cannon and armored vehicles, securing our melee dominance. Important persons (like Bjorn!) can be quickly and securely transported without ambush.
TL;DR: An Infantry Fighting Vehicle equipped with a HC1-E and AS-HAC-1 that can transport 8 passengers + 2 crew. Crystal armor and conducting/resisting layering allows for it to be impervious to literally any Moskurg weapon. Lightning is harmlessly grounded and can't jump anywhere else. Ballistae bolts bounce off the crystal armor like they've always done. Tornadoes can't pick up the heavy vehicle and debris is blocked by crystal armor.
"Why not just a tank?" You ask?
Crystal armor. That's why. It lets us make a vehicle like this without sacrificing survivability.
Armor - Crystal armor makes it easy to make something that can shrug off ballistae bolts, debris, and fire (more on that later). The weight of the overall vehicle means it can't be lifted by tornadoes.
Visibility - Crystal Glass exists. We use that to allow for extreme visibility.
Lightning Protection - Layered crystal armor: Conducting layer on top, and below that layer is resisting. Extremely easy for us to do (flipping a switch in Crystalworks) but nullifies lightning. Crystal has historically conducted electricity with zero problems, given it's not the resisting variant. The lightning rods on our soldiers failed because the steel didn't conduct as well as crystal and now the lightning jumps from rod to soldier. Here, the lightning can't jump anywhere and is effortlessly conducted to the ground with zero damage.
Engine & Speed - Our engine can make a fully-loaded Restless (it may not be armored, but it should be at least a bit heavier than the Protector with all its carts and cargo) roughly match a horse in speed. So with our free engine upgrade, we can give the Protector a very good speed that even beats horses despite its weight and armor.
Free Engine Upgrade - We upgrade the steam engine to use Blastballs to directly power the turbine instead, notably improving power. This should retroactively apply to all our engine-using designs, improving their speed and power. The Restless should go faster and handle steeper inclines and our Crystalclads should move faster. Maybe even make them Cheap due to the decreased complexity?
Cabin Cooling - We can very easily make cooling circuits. The Magical Condenser, the Frost Tower, the circuits of every barrel we have, etc.; we apply those circuits to the cabin to keep it climate controlled in any situation. Doesn't require power because it's an enchantment-style circuit.
Weapons - The AS-HAC-1 and HC1-E are both relatively light to be able to fit on the vehicle and aren't extraordinarily expensive. They should be easy to incorporate. HC1-E is on front with very limited aiming ability but the vehicle maneuvering makes aiming easier. AS-HAC-1 is on top operated by a guy in a crystal glass "bubble".
Passengers - 8 passengers (10 people total) can be brought to the frontline securely in this thing.
Magegem Battery - The better engine + our better Magegems means we can put as many AA gems as possible (without +Expense) to allow for operation of the vehicle without a mage for hours. Weapons can be fired from battery too but should be used very carefully when taking from the battery.
Anti-Magic Resistance - The circuits+Magegems are insulated by a variant of insulating crystal to prevent magic "leaking out" due to anti-magic, allowing operation in anti-magic fields. I believe Evicted stated that our circuits are already close to anti-magic resistance and that our Magegems are definitely already resistant to anti-magic. Magic-insulating crystal should be easy to make because we already know how to influence the flow of magic (Crystal conduits, better Magegems) and already know how to insulate the flow of electricity, which is fairly similar.
Difficulty - We've already made a land vehicle - the Restless. We know how to make land vehicles now and have had experience with the Restless for a while, making this design easier to do. The weapons are all existing designs just being easily integrated. Hell, the only real "new" thing the Protector does is anti-magic resistance, which should be minor (for aforementioned reasons). Most of the Protector is simply combining things we already know well how to do. We know how to make the engine. We know how to make a land vehicle. We know how to do crystal armor and hulls. We know how to do the weapons. We know how to do practically everything in the design.
Expense - Every single component on the Protector is Expensive or less. Circuits are Cheap. Engine is Expensive. AA Magegems are Expensive. HC1-E is Cheap. AS-HAC-1 is Cheap. Furthermore, the Crystal is Crystalworks meaning we get the Crystalworks bonus! It should be very easy to make the Protector Expensive.
Purpose - Transport our soldiers to the field unharmed + support them in combat. Protect+transport important people across theatres (like Myark + Bjorn). Scouting + Flare-casting (they're fast and protect the people from getting harmed). And maybe important good transport. Like if our artillery runs out of ammo. Also, general combat use. Protecting other vehicles/large amounts of moving men. Basically as a secure transport vehicle and as a combat vehicle. Though its main focus is transporting men into combat + supporting them.
Design: AS-PSD-1 Kinetic Resistor "Blastshield"
Personal Survival Device
The Blastshield is a Magegem-scroll combination designed to be fitted onto combat armor.
With our experiencein the Blastball, we've shown we can manipulate pressure to our liking. So what if we created a bubble of a certain pressure around a soldier? We can slow down incoming projectiles as they have to pass through this constant outward pressure to get to the soldier. Other incoming things like swords and melee weapons will also be negatively impacted by this as their speed too is decreased.
The pressure bubble of course can't practically stop projectiles - that'd be too energy intensive. Instead they slow down projectiles just enough so that they don't kill or grievously injure the occupant in combat armor.
The entire thing is maintained by 2 AAA gems. This may seem like a minor amount of power relatively, and that's because it is. The Blastshield is a constant pressure bubble - a kind of enchantment. While as position change it consumes energy, the amount of energy consumed is nowhere near the levels of an actual spell creating much more immense levels of sudden pressure and giving it velocity. The Blastshield just keeps a hollow bubble of air around the occupant at a constant outward pressure.
The AAA Magegems should be able to power a shield for 12 hours without recharging, and can be toggled off/on by the soldier.
Expense-wise, it shouldn't be difficult as it's based off of Cheap Magegems and Cheap Circuits.
TL;DR: 2x AAA Magegems + Scroll circuitry designed to be fit into combat armor. When on, maintains a constant hollow bubble of air surrounding the owner at an outward pressure, slowing down any incoming projectiles and attacks just enough to render most of them non-lethal, but likely certain projectiles like ballistae bolts will still tend to hurt. Just not kill or grievously injure. Lasts for 12 hours because it's mostly an enchantment which mostly doesn't need outside energy. It's just "keep air at constant pressure."
Votes to be made more fancy by me later if no one else does it. But I'm tired.
Quote
DESIGN
1 - AS-PSD-1 Kinetic Resistor "Blastshield: Chiefwaffles
0 - AS-LFV-1 "Protector":
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 28, 2017, 03:02:17 am
Based on the last battle report, I wound say an APC is not at all necessary. I think we ought to make an armoured tank using that engine credit we have gathering dust in the corner.
Also, idea.
The thesis was on replicating the link with the aether that our mages naturally posses. Given a few improvements to our mind magic, it might be possible to make a sort of "mage crown" that links aether gems into the mind of a normal solder, letting them act as a mage despite the lack of a natural magical connection.
I was looking to focus on the land based engine and armor this turn, and we can incorporate a cannon next, but I would support a self propelled cannon of some kind.
Post by: RAM on June 28, 2017, 03:33:02 am
Post by: Andres on June 28, 2017, 04:03:01 am
The AS-R2 is the actual rifle. The actual weapon of the future. Really, the AS-R1 is a prototype. Meant to test the effectiveness of a handheld infantry weapon.
The first improvement of the AS-R2 is simple. Improved accuracy. The AS-R1 possesses remarkable range, but its accuracy hurts this greatly. The rifle actually has a range of Extreme range, but at as little as Medium ranges, it accuracy begins to fall off. By expanding the barrel and streamlining the bullet to reduce disruptive drag, we have increased the accuracy to the point where hopefully the AS-R2 should remain accurate to Extreme range.
Next is also simple - a scope. We tweak the structure of Crystal Glass by just a bit to have it create an effect magnifying distant targets. The scope is made out of this magnifying Crystal Glass in a cylinder-resembling shape and placed on top of the AS-R2. We carefully place a crosshair onto the crystal glass scope to indicate where the bullet should hit if one was looking into the scope while firing.
The scope is designed to be able to be detached and reattached as needed, as to not bother the forces fighting close-up with the AS-R2.
Finally, is a groundbreaking improvement: the ability to load multiple bullets at a time.
The AS-R2 uses our knowledge of mechanics learned over decades of use with our many steam engine and steam engine-using designs, the AS-HAC-2, breech-loading, and much much more in order to allow for this innovative feature.
Ammunition is loaded from the bottom of the gun via a magazine which can hold a maximum of 4 bullets. After a bullet is shot out, we use our bolt-action breech-loader to have a lever arm be flipped by the user, forcing a new bullet from the magazine into the barrel to be then fired out when ready.
The four AAA magegems which power the gun are part of the magazine and rest behind the bullets. Nickel circuits are connected to these magegems and reach up to the top of the magazine. When the magazine is loaded into a gun, the magazine's circuits connect to the in-built circuits of the gun. The magic energy of the magegems travels through these circuits and is used to power the SPSF-Cs which fire the bullets out of the gun.
It's recognised that the AAA magegems will not be able to supply enough magic energy to fire four SPSF-Cs but the design will go ahead anyway as it's expected that their storage capacity will be increased in the Revision phase.
The AS-R2's operation is simple. A soldier loads in the magazine. They can then fire once, quickly pull the lever, then fire again. They can repeat this to fire four bullets per magazine. They then take out the magazine to store it on their person for later recharge then insert a new magazine.
The new scope combined with greater accuracy will allow for sniping of the likes we've never seen before. At Extreme range, their commanders will be nearly instantly hit by a sniper using the scope on their AS-R2. Our advances can be shielded from ballistae by having AS-R2 users snipe the ballista operators. Lightning (and tornadoes) can be easily stopped by sniping the mages. The extremely improved rate of fire will make our longbows effectively obsolete wherever they can be replaced. The AS-R2 will be an extremely versatile weapon of many users, from standard ranged to close combat to sniping to much more.
TL;DR: A bolt action magazine-fed rifle equipped with a scope and greater accuracy compared to the AS-R1. Useful for replacing the longbow (disregarding Expense) due to its greater range, accuracy, and rate of fire. Useful for sniping because of its scope and greater accuracy. Useful for close combat (disregarding anti-magic for now) because of its RoF. And other things I haven't thought of.
Accuracy - Increase the accuracy via a longer barrel and more aerodynamic bullet, reducing disrupting drag. The AS-R1 has a max range of Extreme and an effective range of Long because its accuracy begins dropping off at medium range. We make it accurate up to Extreme.
Scope - Use Crystal Glass + modifications (tons of Crystal experience + crystalworks!) to make a scope for the AS-R2. Can also spot for artillery if we don't have that yet. Can be detached.
Magazine-loading/Bolt-action - We already essentially have bolt action for breech loading. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7480114#msg7480114) We just add a magazine loaded filled with 4 bullets and 4 magegems which connect to the gun via circuits. A bullet is pushed into the breech every time the bolt is opened by the user, drastically increasing rate of fire. The magegems are AAA which aren't yet capable of providing enough SPSF-Cs for 4 bullets, but that's what the Revision phase is for. We were planning to increase their capacity anyway.
Quote
DESIGN
1 - AS-PSD-1 Kinetic Resistor "Blastshield: Chiefwaffles
0 - AS-LFV-1 "Protector":
1 - AS-R2: Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 28, 2017, 04:02:06 pm
Right now our soldiers have superior weaponry and armor. Winning at melee is something they do well, provided they get there. Unfortunately, Evicted has stated that passage through no man's land, which our troops have to endure to get to melee, is quite lethal.
A huge portion of our soldiers do not survive making it past Moskurg's weaponry. Sure, our artillery is great at countering the offensive portions of their weaponry, but Moskurg still has a talent for defensively killing our soldiers. Lightning, tornadoes, and literal sniper ballistae are all huge killers of our soldiers on the attack.
We want to diversify our advantage. Right now we're winning practically solely because of artillery. Like I said in the Protector design post, we need to use this opportunity to create a similar advantage in another area. So if Moskurg tries to change the nature of warfare again we beat them to the punch, and if they try to (soft) counter our artillery, we have an avenue of warfare not possibly affected by any artillery counters.
We have an advantage in melee. When we engage in melee, we win more often. Of course, our advantage here is much smaller than our artillery advantage. If Moskurg introduces an infantry-helping design, then we lose our melee advantage. But the main problem is that a huge portion of our troops die before they make it to melee, decreasing the effect of our melee advantage.
New rifles won't fix this. As snipers, they're practically outclassed by our longer range artillery. Sure, it's not as accurate, but we've displayed we don't need our artillery to be any more accurate than it is. In melee, it can increase our advantage, but our soldiers will still die before reaching Melee and our advantage from winning at melee will be reduced.
We need a way to get our soldiers safely to melee in order to ensure we get the biggest benefit from a melee advantage. The Protector does this and[/I] increases our melee advantage with close-range armor support.
Vote for the AS-LFV-1 Protector.
Quote
DESIGN
1 - AS-LFV-1 "Protector" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497271#msg7497271): Chiefwaffles
0 - AS-PSD-1 Kinetic Resistor "Blastshield" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497271#msg7497271):
1 - AS-R2: Andres
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 28, 2017, 04:10:44 pm
Wait.. you want to include two cannons? Maybe just the lighter one, but at this rate the "passenger" compartment will be filled with gunner crew and ammunition. We need a solution to get troops into battle under armor, not a bunch of mobile guns. Also all the normal components should be cheap, but the cannons and ammo types you are adding would be expensive or worse.
I like the idea, but I think we should make dedicated cannon-wagons and dedicated armored-war-carriages, not something trying to bridge the gap.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 28, 2017, 04:12:02 pm
Quick question: Do antimagic charms prevent lightning from being directed through a soldier instead of into their lightning rod?
No. It somehow works despite anti-magic fields, and you're not sure what the exact process behind it is.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 28, 2017, 04:24:25 pm
Fits 6 passengers along with a very large cannon and missiles and tons of ammo for its weapons.
Sure, its a flawed vehicle, but we can fix those problems. We have Crystal, which is (relatively) lighter and much stronger. That plus the fact that we're dealing with ballistae bolts and not anti-tank weaponry makes the armor situation much easier as well. Our armor is much simpler to make, requires less material because of Crystal + the weapons we're facing, and is extremely cheap because Crystalworks.
Ammunition-wise, the HC1-E doesn't use particularly huge shells and the AS-HAC-1 uses small shells. We put in a respectable supply of them, but it doesn't have to be like the Bradley's stored ammunition.
Also Void, I'm already using a blast engine. The Protector uses the steam engine upgrade to add blastball-power instead of fireball->steam-power.
Post by: RAM on June 28, 2017, 05:08:29 pm
The magegems are AAA which aren't yet capable of providing enough SPSF-Cs for 4 bullets, but that's what the Revision phase is for. We were planning to increase their capacity anyway.As far as I can tell, the design doesn't actualyl function at all unless there is a specific, and successful, revision. Also, it is a revision that has already been done in the previous turn. I would expect to experience diminishing returns from repeating the same effect, thus I feel we ought to do something more dramatic to improve the gems. Also, most of that design is pretty mundane. The magazine might be a bit ambitious for a revision, but the lenses and barrel are probably revisable, and I doubt that we are getting aerodynamic bullets easily without a justification for it. aerodynamics is very difficult and it is non-magical so we are trying to do it with dark/middle-age resources. I feel that if we want to start on aerodynamics we should first build a hydrodynamic hull that works mostly in two dimensions and offers highly visible wakes and eddies.
Underwater Naval Cannon Engine
Shape: A large pod with a ship-shaped fin above it and three platforms atop the fin with three tubes in the fin leading to those platforms.
Stability: Air-chambers in the fin and lead-ballast along the base of the pod.
Ventilation/pumping: Chill-base vents using convection to pull fresh air in, flame-base vents expelling air and steam.
Propulsion: If fireballs work underwater than use flame-based pulse-jets using a single cork-and-cage vent to prevent forward-thrust. It should work about as well as the steam-cannons do for exactly the same reasons...
If fireballs do not work underwater then:
Use cannons along the sides and rear. Alternate summoning crystal globes after the cannon is cleared and summoning explosions inside the air-filled crystal globes. If a cannon becomes flooded then it can be drained by summoning a crystal to seal the chamber and removing a summoned crystal from an air-vent then using a flame circuit to expel the water through the air-vent as steam.
Sealing: Screwed hatches with nice, large, solid handles and freezing circuits to turn leaks into ice.
Power: magess in the bottom, circuits leading to the cannons at the top.
Steering: Summoned/unsummoned crystals in two fixed slots at the back. Clearly marked "left", "right", and "slow" circuits used to summon them.
Communication: Magem-powered flare circuits used to light up various panels. Typically navigation requests and combat warnings.
Armament: One heavy cannon in a rotating bunker powered by an updated one of the old miniboilers and two medium cannons in mostly open-walled covered bunkers.
Escape: An extremely cramped pod forward and externally mounted with an undersized engine and a delayed magem-powered circuit that generates explosions within the near hull, cracking the pod from the ship.
Their weather effects have, thus far, proven completely air-based, and they appear to lack any means to exert influence over the water-element. Thus the water should be quite safe.
Linked magems get my vote because they seem useful. Especially if we can get charging arrays that can be places in a less exposed location and spread out to avoid competing with one another. Although an actual charging system would be preferable. Did I mention that my Devumes could lead to an easy magic-accumulation design? Also much of that can be done with circuits instead, or at least that is my feeling. But a nice mobile mage-fort providing energy to surrounding soldiers could be loads of fun.
The war wagon is okay, but I don't see the need, and there are no jets on it : (
Blastshield seems to be missing the point. Lightning is killing us, tornadoes are killing us. Their ballistae are a pretty minor issue at this point and the armour probably won't have enough energy to repel it regardless, not without something like linked gems to focus magic. It might be better to go back to my crystal charms that transform into extra armour. At least that technology has a clear advancement in detection ability. This is an energy shield that, well, I expect that the energy requirements are huge. It needs to stop ballistae bolts... If you want pressure tech to use against their weather systems then we can already do that with temperature changes. That is, like, weather 101: hot=low, cold=high, low -> high... Note that funnels typically occur on sun-baked plains next to frozen mountains, but never actually on the mountains, although you might get the odd willywilly from local turbulence...
So, is there some sort of plan as to what use pressure magic has?
Protector is way too ambitious, and not in a good way. Most of the technology either doesn't exist or outright contradicts established facts. Enchantment magic doesn't exist(Well the Kegger's seem to have it, but that doesn't help unless you want to spend a design recovering one of their carpets...), that is a new field, As is conversion magic(It is not enough to create new air, you need to clean the old stuff too), Blast engines should be easy but we don't know their performance, exceeding a horse is either a design goal, which needs a priority, or an unsubstantiated claim, as it stand I would not find fault in the G.M. saying "it is faster than a horse but a well-aimed arrow can go through the thin armour" on a low roll as the space requirement of the design require a very small engine, we have no sealing technology for underwater operations and the value of such is vague, there are very few river crossings reported and this thing still seems unsuited to sea-crossings. Layered armour never worked and it is explicitly stated that their lightning control has nothing to do with conductivity and that our lightning rods were working entirely within design specifications. And I am pretty sure that lightning tends to blow crystal up rather than harmlessly passing through it, but I could be wrong on that point.
Needs some ballast and a lightning rod would help. They can't fathomably control mundane lightning and magic lightning is going to be expensive and probably vulnerable to antimagic charms.
If it worked perfectly then we have a moderately fast weapon platform and troop carrier, which would be nice, but not game-changing, primarily because it is probably still slower than their airships. It will not work perfectly.
I would rather do the R2 as a design for a light-enchanted lens and a revision for longer barrel and magazine, ideally with some sort of magic to justify the otherwise technical magazine. It also doesn't have enough power to shoot in its initial configuration and then needs a revision which might not work. Better to do the design with a novelty oversized magazine and then try to shrink it...
Quote
DESIGN
0 Devumes:
1 Linked Mage Gems: RAM
0 War Wagon:
0 AS-PSD-1 Kinetic Resistor "Blastshield":
1 AS-LFV-1 "Protector": Chiefwaffles
1 AS-R2: Andres
0 Underwater Naval Cannon Engine:
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 28, 2017, 05:28:08 pm
The Restless already roughly matches a horse in speed when fully loaded. It has a single unupgraded steam engine.
The air enchantment is simple and based off existing tech. I don't understand how you think it's new. It's magic. An enchantment. We don't have to precisely summon and dispose of gases. We just say "keep the air breathable. " That's what an enchantment does.
The design does not require a smaller steam engine. Arrows can't even pierce our personal armor. You're just making things up at this point.
Lightning control can very easily be stopped by layered armor. You should read how their lightning circumvents the rod. We tried it once which helps us. That's how arms race works.
Lightning only blows up electricity-resistant crystal. Which is optional.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 28, 2017, 05:39:10 pm
My issue is not with making a full IFV, but this is literally the first land combat vehicle being produced. Trying to do everything with it seems like too much. Drop the environmental stuff, take out the heavier cannon (the lighter one is a good idea) and we might be able to get away with a crew of 2 Pilots (apprentices), 2 gunners plus 6 passengers.
I do like many elements of your design compared to mine.
I was thinking of reviving the long range elemental control magic for our fireballs as well, it is clear that elemental magic can be controlled at great distances, or at least given more explicit directions at time of casting.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 28, 2017, 05:43:22 pm
We know how to make land vehicles.
We know how to make effective crystal armor.
We know how to make the weapons.
We know how to make the engine.
We don't need to limit ourselves. We don't always need to take baby steps before going into effective designs. We can make the Protector.
Post by: Andres on June 28, 2017, 06:32:48 pm
We have an advantage in melee. When we engage in melee, we win more often. Of course, our advantage here is much smaller than our artillery advantage. If Moskurg introduces an infantry-helping design, then we lose our melee advantage. But the main problem is that a huge portion of our troops die before they make it to melee, decreasing the effect of our melee advantage.We have a small advantage in melee. We win more often, but the margin isn't significant. We keep wasting a huge portion of our troops running into a fight where they have a small advantage rather than staying back behind cover killing the enemy infantry where said enemy infantry can't kill them back.
Rifles will greatly reduce the number of troops we lose attacking enemy infantry by reducing the distance they have to cover before they can engage with the enemy, by not putting them in range of the enemy infantry's weapons, and by letting them take cover from Moskurg's missiles and spells.
Rifles will greatly increase the amount of enemy infantry our troops can kill compared to their current melee weapons or an APC.
Developing the R2 would not only get us a general battlefield rifle for our troops to use, but also give us a true sniper rifle. Moskurg relies on its wizards to cast their lightning, their tornadoes, and to guide their ballista bolts. In all likelihood it'll be these wizards who will cast the spells which will counter our artillery. A proper sniper rifle would massively increase the amount of their wizards our men can kill, significantly reducing their anti-artillery spells and their regular stock of spells.
A sniper rifle would also significantly lower enemy morale by taking out their officers, greatly increase Myark's killing power, and keep our heir safe by keeping him back, as opposed to designing a vehicle meant solely to take him into the thick of a battle where we only hold a small advantage over the enemy. If we're particularly lucky, Myark, combined with our anti-wizard squads, will be able to finally kill Al-Mutriqa. Snipers would also mean we have better odds of taking out Moskurg's heir, especially compared to an APC.
Finally, developing the R2 will include the development of magnifying optics, which will be useful in scouting, spotting, and aiming in general. A very good invention to have.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 28, 2017, 06:49:50 pm
We have a small advantage in melee. We win more often, but the margin isn't significant. We keep wasting a huge portion of our troops running into a fight where they have a small advantage rather than staying back behind cover killing the enemy infantry where said enemy infantry can't kill them back.We have an advantage. That's my point. It's been clearly stated as a factor.
But it's been clearly started as a small factor because melees as a whole aren't as significant because of the fact that our soldiers (and theirs ) can barely get across no man's land alive. We've already made the battlefield largely like WW1 trenches. Our artillery does the shooting. We don't need a further long-rang advantage. That's for our archers and our artillery. We don't need to add to our artillery advantage even further and put all our eggs in one basket.
Rifles will greatly reduce the number of troops we lose attacking enemy infantry by reducing the distance they have to cover before they can engage with the enemy and by letting them take cover.Artillery does that.
Rifles will greatly increase the amount of enemy infantry our troops can kill compared to their current melee weapons or an APC.You're misunderstanding the point.
It doesn't matter how well our soldiers can kill Moskurgers. We need to get our soldiers there alive before they can start killing. And if your answer is "make it so they don't have to cross no man's land!" then that's literally what artillery does. We need to make new advantages, not add to existing ones.
Developing the R2 would not only get us a general battlefield rifle for our troops to use, but also give us a true sniper rifle. Moskurg relies on its wizards to cast their lightning, their tornadoes, and to guide their ballista bolts. In all likelihood it'll be these wizards who will cast the spells which will counter our artillery. A proper sniper rifle would massively increase the amount of their wizards our men can kill, significantly reducing their anti-artillery spells and their regular stock of spells.We don't need a sniper rifle. We have extreme amounts of fairly accurate (but more importantly) and explosive artillery. It would be nice, but see my previous points. We need new advantages, not add to our artillery advantage. Artillery is "kill them from afar via shells". Sniper rifle is "kill them from afar via
A sniper rifle would also significantly lower enemy morale by taking out their officers, greatly increase Myark's killing power, and keep our heir safe by keeping him back, as opposed to designing a vehicle meant solely to take him into the thick of a battle where we only hold a small advantage over the enemy. If we're particularly lucky, Myark, combined with our anti-wizard squads, will be able to finally kill Al-Mutriqa. Snipers would also mean we have better odds of taking out Moskurg's heir, especially compared to an APC.We already are doing very well at taking out their officers.
Via sniping.
But more importantly, via artillery. We have enough artillery to barrage entire swaths of lands and leave nothing left standing. We don't need to build on our artillery advantage right now. What if they make bunkers? What if they make their carpets able to dodge artillery? What if they deflect our shells with wind? What if they add wind dodging? What if they counter our artillery? We need advantages which don't just build on artillery.
Finally, developing the R2 will include the development of magnifying optics, which will be useful in scouting, spotting, and aiming in general. A very good invention to have.Flares already serve that purpose very well. Optics could also very easily be done in a revision to the Combat Armor's visor, which is more useful than a scope.
My point is:
We already have a long-range ballistic advantage. Now we need to focus on our melee advantage. The problem is that regardless of how well our soldiers do in combat, so many of them die before combat that melee is a much smaller factor than it could be.
Rifles do not fix this. At best they just make our soldiers do a role that the artillery already does excellently and further puts more eggs in the same basket.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 28, 2017, 06:59:48 pm
1. Because I really like the idea of snipers.
1b. Especially for killing their heir.
2. Because I'm tired of voting Chiefwaffles every single time. Cat Arstotzka will never develop under his iron rule.
3. Crystal optics! From there, we can do a spyglass system and improved crosshairs for our artillery in one revision.
4. Because we have a single land vehicle design that works on rails, massively simplifying things. We do have good crystal armor and artillery, but in order for me to vote for the Protector, I would need to see we have the prerequisites of additional land vehicle tech and the IDE.
5. Because this is also a melee advantage. Right now, the best weapon we have in melee... is an axe. A good axe, but still an axe. This is better. Once we finally get an APC, our melee will be even better.
6. If we do the IDE in a revision, I'll vote Protector next design phase. It's not too unfeasible to do the IDE in a revision: we have that engine credit and loads of engine experience and blast ball experience.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Quote
DESIGN
1 - AS-LFV-1 "Protector" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497271#msg7497271): Chiefwaffles
0 - AS-PSD-1 Kinetic Resistor "Blastshield" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497271#msg7497271):
2 - AS-R2: Andres, FallacyofUrist
The Kinetic Resistor is pretty intriguing, though. So much potential. So much protect prince.
Maybe we can just make better crystal armor, though.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 28, 2017, 07:20:26 pm
1b. (EDIT) ~OR~ we can revise crystal optics this turn then annihilate their heir and the surrounding area with artillery! Or send an overwhelming force of men to kill them all! Or both!
2. That's not a good reason!
2b. (EDIT2) Also the AS-R2 is actually my design. I posted it before this combat report and Andres just tweaked the magazine + Magegems. So you'd still be voting for me either way! Muwhahahahaha!
3. It's better to do that in a revision - we can get closer to iron man suits and cool tactical visors by adding what's essentially a zoom function to all combat armor!
4. When we tried to make a tracked APC (when Evicted temporarily misinterpreted the Restless design) we got a -1. This is without a land vehicle. Why do we need more experience?
5. The Protector is a melee advantage and a melee advantage is not going to help us if our soldiers die before they get into melee.
6. Andres' version of the AS-R2 literally requires another Magegem revision meaning no IDE this turn if we do it, and I don't think the IDE is worth it. We can implement our free engine upgrade in the Protector making it run on Blastballs, then later revise it to be piston-powered instead of turbine-powered. Bam. IDE.
C'moooon. Better soldiers won't matter if our soldiers die before they start fighting!
Post by: Andres on June 28, 2017, 07:23:27 pm
archersAnd that's another thing! Archers! Moskurg's adamantium means that archers simply aren't that useful anymore. It's just too tough to reliably pierce through. Swapping out our longbows with R2s will mean that we'll have a considerable percentage of our infantry having a much needed combat boost, once more allowing them to have significant effect against the enemy.
It doesn't matter how well our soldiers can kill Moskurgers. We need to get our soldiers there alive before they can start killing. And if your answer is "make it so they don't have to cross no man's land!" then that's literally what artillery does.You keep maintaining this contradictory stance. It's either "Our infantry need to kill Moskurgs, but they have to go over no man's land to do so. Let's give them APCs to do that" or "Our infantry don't need to kill Moskurgs. Our artillery kills the Moskurgs for them", but not both.
Currently, our infantry DO need to kill Moskurgs and thus DO need to cross no man's land, getting hit by the enemy as they run across it. Better the R2 than the APC because while they might both reduce no man's land casualties in their own way, the R2 almost completely does away with melee casualties whereas an APC will at most reduce them.
EDIT: The R2 will also result in more Moskurg deaths than an APC as well.
What if they counter our artillery? We need advantages which don't just build on artillery.I mentioned the possibility of them countering our artillery in my argument. They will in all likelihood do so by having their wizards cast a spell. An R2 - a proper sniper rifle that's accurate beyond Moderate range - will significantly increase our men's ability to do so. Not only that, but it'll cut down on them casting other spells as well, spells like the lightning which their carpet wizards continue to cast.
Flares already serve that purpose very well.This idea of "we have flares, so it's not that important to get optics" is so ludicrous I'm not going to waste any breath arguing over it. If that's not what you meant, I apologise, but please choose your words more carefully next time.
Optics could also very easily be done in a revision to the Combat Armor's visor, which is more useful than a scope.A waste of a Revision. It's more efficient to get magnifying optics as part of the R2, then we can just retrofit it into our visors.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 28, 2017, 07:37:17 pm
And that's another thing! Archers! Moskurg's adamantium means that archers simply aren't that useful anymore. It's just too tough to reliably pierce through. Swapping out our longbows with R2s will mean that we'll have a considerable percentage of our infantry having a much needed combat boost, once more allowing them to have significant effect against the enemy.Or we can just use artillery.
You keep maintaining this contradictory stance. It's either "Our infantry need to kill Moskurgs, but they have to go over no man's land to do so. Let's give them APCs to do that" or "Our infantry don't need to kill Moskurgs. Our artillery kills the Moskurgs for them", but not both.
Currently, our infantry DO need to kill Moskurgs and thus DO need to cross no man's land, getting hit by the enemy as they run across it. Better the R2 than the APC because while they might both reduce no man's land casualties in their own way, the R2 almost completely does away with melee casualties whereas an APC will at most reduce them.
The APC, if successful (which isn't a disadvantage. This is true for all designs, including the R2), will completely eliminate casualties on no man's land. The R2 does not protect our soldiers from Lightning (which immediately kills at range and is accurate) or Tornadoes (stated by Evicted to be the #1 killer of our men) or sniper Ballistae (which can easily kill men in combat armor and is super-super-accurate).
This is what's killing our men. At most, the AS-R2 helps a bit against them but it's unrealistic to expect soldiers equipped with AS-R2 to be able to immediately snipe any mage casting killing spells. If this was true, then we'd have won the game with artillery already.
Or you can take it from Evicted himself.
Charging across no-man's land is still pretty lethal for both sides despite their new armor
...
I mentioned the possibility of them countering our artillery in my argument. They will in all likelihood do so by having their wizards cast a spell. An R2 - a proper sniper rifle that's accurate beyond Moderate range - will significantly increase our men's ability to do so. Not only that, but it'll cut down on them casting other spells as well, spells like the lightning which their carpet wizards continue to cast.That's literally what our artillery is already doing. This won't help in any way because it's already being done excellently.
This idea of "we have flares, so it's not that important to get optics" is so ludicrous I'm not going to waste any breath arguing over it.That's not what I said. But let me restate my point then.
It's important to get optics, but not important enough to go with an inferior design just to kind of of get optics in a package deal. Our artillery is already effective at BLOS+1 ranges (which we will not be able to get the AS-R2 to.)
Also, fun fact, that I'm emphasizing because this is really important.
The AS-R2 is (best case scenario since this is increasing its effective range by +2 and we've never done that before) at Extreme range. Moskurg's Ballistae (and every useful spell) are at Extreme range. Ballistae can literally snipe soldiers. Lightning can snipe soldiers and can be done from BLOS. Tornadoes are at Extreme range. Snipers aren't useful if they're the same range as the enemy's good weapons.[/b]
A waste of a Revision. It's more efficient to get magnifying optics as part of the R2, then we can just retrofit it into our visors.Not possible because this is not how retrofitting works. Retrofitting is if we upgrade a design already used somewhere else or if we make something very similar to an existing design used somewhere else, or if we make something that another design that we already included slots for in another design.
If we make a crystal scope, we'd have to fit it into a visor shape and add additional functionality so the soldiers can activate and deactivate it at will.
EDIT: For those who don't feel like reading through even more quote-by-quote arguments, here's a short summary of my points:
The AS-R2 fulfills two roles.
Role one: Sniper. The problem here though is that our artillery already does this better than the best case AS-R2. Artillery is much longer-ranged, more widespread, has explosive ammo, and can carpet an entire area with explosives. The AS-R2 is at Extreme range, where they can be sniped by Moskurg's literal sniper Ballistae (which would beat the AS-R2 in accuracy), lightning, or tornadoes. And the latter two can even be casted from BLOS on their airships where the best possible AS-R2 can't reach them.
Role two: Infantry weapon. The problem here (other than the fact that it's Expensive) is that it doesn't matter how good our infantry if they die before reaching the battle. This was said by Evicted to be a thing. And if your answer to this is "well we can just snipe them before they shoot us!" then 1.) Our artillery literally already does that and 2.) See "Role one".
Sorry if this edit ninjas someone's post in response to mine.
EDIT2: Two things.
1.) @RAM and his criticism of the Blastshield: Yeah, that's why I decided against it ultimately. It only helps against Ballistae. But the main point of the Blastshield is to pave the way for force-manipulation, allowing power armor and other cool things.
2.) The AS-R2 has two points of failure unlike practically any other design. It relies on a successful Magegem revision to work at all. So if we don't get the Design and Revision right, the AS-R2 won't work properly. This is a minor point hence the edit, but it still matters. Sorry again if this edit ninjas anything.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 28, 2017, 07:48:41 pm
For the rifle, firing speed isn't the real issue right now, it is cost and accuracy.
Quote
DESIGN
2 - AS-LFV-1 "Protector" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497271#msg7497271): Chiefwaffles, voidslayer
0 - AS-PSD-1 Kinetic Resistor "Blastshield" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497271#msg7497271):
2 - AS-R2: Andres, FallacyofUrist
Post by: Andres on June 28, 2017, 07:58:23 pm
For the rifle, firing speed isn't the real issue right now, it is cost and accuracy.Read into the design. The R2 isn't just RoF, it also aims to improve upon the accuracy of the R1 and give it a scope. That solves the accuracy. The improvement of rate of fire also makes up for the lack of decreased cost. It's still more bullets downrange, it's just that the increase is due to better guns rather than more guns. It's probably even the superior option in this regard as the resighting our troops will have to do won't be as severe.
Quote
DESIGN
2 - AS-LFV-1 "Protector" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497271#msg7497271): Chiefwaffles, voidslayer
0 - AS-PSD-1 Kinetic Resistor "Blastshield" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497271#msg7497271):
2 - AS-R2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497288#msg7497288): Andres, FallacyofUrist
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 28, 2017, 08:34:47 pm
And what do people think of using our AS-HAC-1 knowledge to make a crystal-armored HC1-E turret (kiiiiiiind of like a tank cannon) and drop the AS-HAC-1? Probably increases complexity since AS-HAC-1 and AS-HC1-E implementations in current design are mostly just "throw them in" but this is a whole new turret that we haven't known before. But less ammunition to be stored and more space.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 28, 2017, 08:46:01 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 28, 2017, 08:49:53 pm
When we originally designed the Restless, Evicted misinterpreted the design and thought by "track" we meant caterpillar treads (like the ones on tanks) instead of railroad tracks. So he made a design based on that and we got a -1 for trying to make a treaded vehicle with zero experience ever making a powered land vehicle before. (EDIT: This is relative to the Restless design, which I think got some penalties too. But the Restless was harder since it was our first engine-powered land vehicle.)
Now we have the experience of a land vehicle and are trying to make a wheeled vehicle. It's not a stretch at all. We've been using the Restless for some time now and jumping from a track-based land vehicle to a free-moving wheel-based one is a perfectly logical step.
I feel a bit like you're basing this too much on a "our first 'actual' land vehicle!"-milestone and thus it should be hard, instead of a logical step from our train.
Post by: RAM on June 28, 2017, 09:06:32 pm
At night, even the slightest sound can spell doom as death is rained down.
The enemy must land, to resupply, to recharge, to let the blasted Kegger kiss their rotten sands.
We must attack when they are unprepared, we must attack silently and invisibly.
Our heir's reputation still has some slivers of dignity, they must be crushed without mercy.
Catgirl Assassins
We have experience modifying wasps, we have experience manipulating birds, we have experience growing plants. It is far from ideal, but there is some hints of expertise there. Our men have been dying in droves, and it is starting to have some unfortunate effects on the home front, we have little choice but to draw from what remains. But we cannot send our womenfolk in without care, they must be trained, equipped, and resilient beyond human limits. They must be warriors without peer. Thus we will take volunteers from amongst the widows, augment their bodies to purfectly suit the silent night, and sudden death, and grant them the finest of training learned from our time with the magehunter squads. Magically, they will be augmented to possess dark fur, large, directed ears, claws for spontaneous defence and climbing to hide in otherwise impossible locations, padded feet to move silently, and large, reflective eyes for piercing the dark nights, and a flexible, expressive tail for balance and silent communication with busy hands.
Their role shall be primarily nocturnal and to observe the enemy and attack only when their foes are vulnerable, and withdraw after inflicting damage, to remain a threat and report on enemy movements.
It IS silly, but it could actualyl be very useful. Although it is admittedly a very ambitious design. Also, we need to get this done before our heir goes into the field.
Also, could someone perhaps fix the votebox, my votes were thrown away...
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 28, 2017, 09:13:27 pm
Quote from: All Hail
DESIGN
2 - AS-LFV-1 "Protector" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497271#msg7497271): Chiefwaffles, voidslayer
0 - AS-PSD-1 Kinetic Resistor "Blastshield" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497271#msg7497271):
1 - AS-R2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497288#msg7497288): Andres
3 - Catgirl Assassins: RAM, FallacyofUrist, Andres(tentative)
Glory to Cat Arstotzka.
Though you forgot the tail for balance(balancing). Please add that in, for the glory of the CULT OF CAT. Also you misspelled the obligatory cat pun, purrfectly, not purefectly.
That doesn't change the fact that it's a very good design.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 28, 2017, 09:15:38 pm
Post by: Andres on June 28, 2017, 09:18:15 pm
Chiefwaffles, in exchange for a favour, I will vote for your Protector instead of Catgirl Assassins. What do you think?
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 28, 2017, 09:24:45 pm
Hail the cult of cat!
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 28, 2017, 09:35:23 pm
Quote
DESIGN
2 - AS-LFV-1 "Protector" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497271#msg7497271): Chiefwaffles, voidslayer
0 - AS-PSD-1 Kinetic Resistor "Blastshield" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497271#msg7497271):
1 - AS-R2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497288#msg7497288): Andres
2 - Catgirl Assassins: FallacyofUrist, Andres(tentative)
I fixed the votes. If RAM wants to break his rule he can do it himself.
Post by: RAM on June 28, 2017, 11:46:14 pm
But meh, my votes have already been delete once this time around, and it was not originally my idea, so
Also, I added a tail and fixed the pun. I was trying to be subtle by only using one r, that much was deliberate, but I somehow missed a massive typo right next to it and then everything fell apart in a massive disaster, and the pun was ruined... These should not be too much of a problem so Imma just edit the old proposal.
Quote
DESIGN
2 - AS-LFV-1 "Protector" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497271#msg7497271): Chiefwaffles, voidslayer
0 - AS-PSD-1 Kinetic Resistor "Blastshield" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497271#msg7497271):
1 - AS-R2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497288#msg7497288): Andres
3 - Catgirl Assassins: RAM, FallacyofUrist, Andres(tentative)
Post by: Kadzar on June 29, 2017, 12:26:45 am
Quote
DESIGN
3 - AS-LFV-1 "Protector" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497271#msg7497271): Chiefwaffles, voidslayer, Kadzar
0 - AS-PSD-1 Kinetic Resistor "Blastshield" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497271#msg7497271):
1 - AS-R2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497288#msg7497288): Andres
3 - Catgirl Assassins: RAM, FallacyofUrist, Andres(tentative)
Post by: Andres on June 29, 2017, 12:32:30 am
I didn't want to vote for another Chiefwaffles design, but we do need something to protect the prince, and, though I was thinking of writing up a proposal for prefabricated crystal bunkers, I think a tank would probably work better.The Protector is not a tank, it's an APC. Its purpose is to go right up to the enemy and unload its troops to fight in melee. All the Protector will do is protect the prince as he travels into the battle, then let him go into a melee where we only hold a small advantage. The R1 would keep him well out of the thick of the fighting entirely.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 29, 2017, 12:38:42 am
Post by: Kadzar on June 29, 2017, 12:44:44 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 29, 2017, 12:48:01 am
So what powers are we giving the cat assassins? What I read is silent movement, climbing and good senses at night. When the enemy has a spell that can detect ambushes.
Post by: helmacon on June 29, 2017, 12:55:39 am
Quote
DESIGNWe must band together to fight this evil of design.
4 - AS-LFV-1 "Protector" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497271#msg7497271): Chiefwaffles, voidslayer, Kadzar, helmacon
0 - AS-PSD-1 Kinetic Resistor "Blastshield" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497271#msg7497271):
1 - AS-R2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497288#msg7497288): Andres
3 - Catgirl Assassins: RAM, FallacyofUrist, Andres(tentative)
Honestly, I would much rather have a pure tank and forgo the APC stuff altogether, but I guess I have to vote protector to keep the cat girls off.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 29, 2017, 01:08:25 am
But again, feedback would be appreciated. If anyone wants me to add, remove, or tweak any aspect to/from/of the design, please say so.
Post by: RAM on June 29, 2017, 01:48:14 am
Also our heir is a wizard so he would likely be piloting and powering the thing and aiming the guns, not jumping out.They are more assassin than ambush predator, the detection spell should not be an issue. And they are stealthy and ought to be able to use weapons and armour as normal. I guess some stealth armour would need to be revised in to actually make use of that. I didn't really specify that they can use weapons, but I did mention that the claws were a backup weapon so hopefully the assumption that they can still do what they normally would with their hands is intact, and if they get a flaw that says otherwise then there is not much as can be done about that.
So what powers are we giving the cat assassins? What I read is silent movement, climbing and good senses at night. When the enemy has a spell that can detect ambushes.
So, in short, their powers are: Better balance, less noise, better sight(especially at night), improved ability to stick to things and climb, less visible(especially at night), and better hearing. Hopefully all being in the same theme of "cat" would help with getting lots of abilities at once. Asking for greater strength, resilience, and flight-capable wings without a common theme would be asking for a lot, but just saying "more like a cat" seems like it ought to be easier, but that is just my own instincts.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 29, 2017, 01:52:41 am
Cabin Atmosphere Control - This seems like a more complicated addition then you realize and is unnecessary for a first generation version unless the goal is to counteract lighting strikes.
Weapons - The AS-HAC-1 and HC1-E both require crews of artillery soldiers to operate. Fitting them all inside the vehicle and having passengers seems like a stretch. Modern weapons have many streamlined parts compared to what we have, allowing one guy to operate multiple weapon systems, here we will have like 6 guys for the two guns alone. We should cut it down to one weapon, the cheaper HC1-E.
Magegem Battery - Because of the armor and our streamlined fireball effects we can afford to drop an apprentice in here instead of mage gems. This cuts out another expensive component.
Anti-Magic Resistance - I do not understand how this works, is it a new effect?
Anyway, cutting out the mage gem batteries and the AS-HAC-1 will remove the expensive components, probably allow it to be so cheap we can load all our infantry in them.
I will support the existing proposal either way.
Edit: If you want the stealthy feline night snipers to be stealthy feline night snipers you should put that as a summation to the proposal because that seems like what I am looking at.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 29, 2017, 02:11:46 am
One day! One day we shall have our soldiers and vehicles be able to ignore water and fire. One day.
Weapons - Only the AS-HA1 has been known to require multiple people crewing it. The HC1-E miiiiiight be a bit slower with 1 person but even then we can get pasengers to do stuff like loading and whatnot. The AS-HAC-1 is explicitly designed to be used by one person.
Magegem Battery - This shouldn't really hurt the design. Best case scenario, we lessen reliance on apprentices and whatnot. Worst case scenario, it doesn't get implemented and nothing bad happens. (Or we get a +expense for a mundane version).
Antimagic Resistance - Disregarding the fluff, this is to make the vehicle able to operate in Moskurg (and our) anti-magic fields. An APC is pretty useless if the enemy can easily remotely shut it off.
Removing Expensive Components - I honestly don't trust that Evicted would ever be willing to make the Protector Cheap on the first design regardless of what we do. Also, usually Cheap/Expensive don't really make a difference for bigger things.
And what do people think of adding a Flare wand to the design? It can be powered with a Cheap AAA Magegem, casting spells with circuits is something we already do effortlessly, and the Flare is a very simple spell.
It lets the vehicle use flares regardless of whether it has an apprentice or not, making it easier on us if we want to make our stuff less dependent on mages. IT works for emergencies like if the Apprentice somehow dies. And it keeps an Apprentice from having to pop their head out to cast Flare.
Post by: RAM on June 29, 2017, 02:37:32 am
I did not think of the catgirls as snipers so much as infiltrators. But snipers are good too. They are basically skirmish troops specially designed to be able to skirmish despite the difficulties that have largely killed off skirmishing lately. I figure they can stab commanders, shoot mages, hide an antimagic bomb under a catapult ready to go off in the middle of the ship just as they start warming up their lucky strikes... I didn't want to use the term "commandos"... If you still want night-snipers summary then I can add night-snipers summary. I guess I should add something about nocturnal operations, but it seems pretty implicit...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 29, 2017, 02:40:15 am
It can also be mounted on the exterior of the vehicle, on the top. Crystal wiring (which is crystal and thus part of the armor) can allow for activation from within the hull. Destruction is possible, but they'd have to specifically target the top of the vehicle at that precise spot. And all it'd do is just mean it loses the capability to use flares.
Post by: Kadzar on June 29, 2017, 10:20:51 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 29, 2017, 10:52:18 am
And what is an APC going to do to protect the prince? It's meant to charge at the enemy, exposing our prince to attack, yeh?
So. Objectively, what's wrong with Catgirl Assassins? As long as we revise the R1 to be silent, they should be amazing for sniping enemy mages! Also, good bodyguards. The kind of bodyguard you never see until it's too late and you're dead in front of your target, with no idea what went wrong.
Post by: Kadzar on June 29, 2017, 12:09:38 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on June 29, 2017, 03:53:29 pm
Post by: Draignean on June 29, 2017, 03:54:59 pm
Quote
DESIGN
4 - AS-LFV-1 "Protector" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497271#msg7497271): Chiefwaffles, voidslayer, Kadzar, helmacon
0 - AS-PSD-1 Kinetic Resistor "Blastshield" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497271#msg7497271):
1 - AS-R2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497288#msg7497288): Andres
4 - Catgirl Assassins: RAM, FallacyofUrist, Andres(tentative), Draignean
What can I say, I enjoy ludicrous nature of the idea. Plus, catgirls.
PPE: Oh, damn. Sorry ES, but this is what I wanted to join up for.
Also, joining on a permanent basis.
Post by: andrea on June 29, 2017, 03:56:33 pm
Quote
DESIGN
5 - AS-LFV-1 "Protector" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497271#msg7497271): Chiefwaffles, voidslayer, Kadzar, helmacon
0 - AS-PSD-1 Kinetic Resistor "Blastshield" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497271#msg7497271):
1 - AS-R2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7497288#msg7497288): Andres
4 - Catgirl Assassins: RAM, FallacyofUrist, Andres(tentative), Draignean
Not on my watch
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 29, 2017, 03:57:33 pm
Does anyone have any last-minute feedback for the Protector?
Post by: helmacon on June 29, 2017, 05:03:03 pm
Post by: Andres on June 29, 2017, 06:48:34 pm
So before Evicted rolls the designs, I'll ask one more time:Give the cannons grapeshot. It's a very simple addition that gives them better close-range firepower. They're IFVs so they'll need it, especially since they won't have explosive ammunition.
Does anyone have any last-minute feedback for the Protector?
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: evictedSaint on June 29, 2017, 08:38:53 pm
This design is quite ambitious, but nothing our Mathemagicians can't handle.
Riffing off our experience with the Restless, the Protector is a large box-shaped vehicle on wagon wheels outfitted with an HC1-E and a HAC-1 that can carry up to 8 soldiers uncomfortably.
Standing at about a man-and-a-half tall, the Protector features a bubbled driver-side compartment on the left-hand-side, where an operator can control the output of the single steam engine that sits directly behind him. This is done through three levers; one that controls whether the right-back wheel is receiving engine power, one that controls whether the left-back wheel is receiving engine power, and one that controls the brakes. Through this innovative method the vehicle can go forward, right, or left (but not backwards). The control devices that dictate power to the wheels and apply the mechanical brake are quite bulky and delicate, so they're encased in crystal with a steel-door hatch for repairs on the bottom of the Protector.
Power is provided through a brand-new innovation known as an "Internal Detonation Engine". Originally a new design of the Steam Engine, the IDE is a new method of transferring power. The original design would heat water to steam, and then put it through one of two chambers. This caused a piston to slide in one direction; once the piston reaches its max extension, the steam exits the chamber and begins filling the sister chamber. This caused a back-and-forth motion that could be used to turn a circular crank. After one apprentice asked why we were even using steam at all, it was upgraded to Detonation powered. This removes the bulky boiler and instead replaces it with a very complicated series of scroll-work that controls timing based on input, stress, and state. Much like the R1 it can generate the combustion through a pair of crystal wires in each chamber, provided a nearby apprentice constantly powers the device. A sizable array of AA magegems takes up a considerable amount of space, but at full charge will allow the device to travel for a minute before running out of power. In the seat next to the driver is an HC1-E on a swivel and rail that pokes out of a small steel hatch in the crystal. The cannon can be aimed and fired, deafening everyone in the vehicle, or pulled back and stowed. Racks provide room for 12 explosive shots, or 16 if the gunner doesn't mind standing hunched-over. The cannon, ammo, engine, gem array and control devices means there's next to no room in the forward compartment, and the only way in or out is a small hatch on the roof.
The rear can store eight soldiers in full gear standing up. The rear door is a steel hatch that drops down into a ramp and is secured by a bolt on the inside. The door is thoughtfully rubbed with tar, to prevent slipping. A hatch in the roof leads to an HAC-1 mounted on the top of the vehicle, although the hatch is so narrow that a soldier can't wear armor. The HAC-1 doesn't have a decent angle to shoot down, so is primarily aimed upwards for carpet riders. Passive nickel circuitry lines the walls and engines, keeping everything at a comfortable temperature that is measured in Celsius, you pedantic pricks.
The wagon wheels the Protector rides on are quite thin compared to the incredible weight of the machine, and it's not uncommon for them to sink deep into the mud or crack when the Protector hits a bump. Even then the ride is quite bumpy without any sort of suspension, so accuracy for the cannon and HAC are virtually non-existent while on the move. The transfer of power from the engine to the wheels uses gears, which are prone to stripping from frequent changing at high speed. Turning often involves stopping, disengaging a wheel, turning, stopping, and re-engaging that wheel. The engine is more powerful than our standard steam engines, but the design is complicated enough that it can't be readily retro-fitted onto our existing ships and trains. The entire device is heavy enough and enough power is lost from the conversion to the wheels that the Protector could probably outrun an unencumbered man on foot, but not a horse.
The Protector relies on two apprentices; one to power the engine, and one to operate the guns (although the engine-operator can pause to climb up to the HAC-1 in a pinch). This device is Very Expensive.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 29, 2017, 08:55:04 pm
So here's a list of the flaws I could see at a glance:
- It's Very Expensive!
- No anti-magic resistance?
- Poor propulsion - The engine's great, but the small wheels can easily crack and sink into the ground. The lack of suspension means no cannon fire on the move. The gears make turning a very slow + arduous process and are prone to breakage at high speed. And more. We could probably fix all this with a single revision.
- It's slower than a horse. Related to above (gears/suspension/wheels and the like) and could probably be fixed with a single revision along with the above.
- Magegem battery only allows up to 1 minute of unpowered operation
- AS-HAC-1 emplacement provides no protection to operator, requires an apprentice operating it, and doesn't support armor making the operator very vulnerable. Also only useful for anti-air.
- IDE can't be retrofitted to other designs. We should probably just implement it in future designs; I don't think a retrofitting revision is worth it.
- Small amounts of ammo. Not a huge deal since the HC1-E is a pretty big cannon and can do a lot with small quantities of ammo.
Anti-magic resistance is annoying, but not the end of the world. Their anti-magic still needs to be consciously cast by a wizard with the spell and our soldiers can always just wait it out or depart the vehicle when disabled.
The wheels/gears/suspension/mechanical propulsion stuff is all annoying, but we can live with it. On the bright side, a single revision could potentially fix all of this and radically progress our knowledge of engineering in this area. Seriously. It's a huge opportunity - suspensions, gear turning, better wheels.
Maybe we could implement treads.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on June 29, 2017, 09:01:24 pm
Cannon Silencer: Using a special coating of very thin specially made crystal around the barrel of any of our guns from the largest to the smallest, we can vastly decrease the amount of noise they make when they fire. This lets them be fired at a slightly higher speed given that our men no longer need to hunker down before firing a gun, but more importantly it makes the AS-R1 far more useful for sniping by making it much harder to tell where that shot came from, increasing their usefulness for our future Catgirl Assassins or Catboy Snipers.
Quote from: Hail Cat
1 - Cannon Silencer - FallacyofUrist
Post by: RAM on June 29, 2017, 09:05:32 pm
These flares are imbues with a transformative persistence. Instead of merely glowing by the whims, they imbue light into the surrounding material, creating illuminated air which remains aloft indefinitely, spreading out like glowing fabric, and only losing their glow once the magic is dispersed utterly. This allows a single flare to illuminate a larger area for longer, and for a host of flares to illuminate an entire region of airspace and the cumulative effect makes them largely impossible to disperse, as it is just flares being pushed into other flares with no critical lack of flares ever being encountered. This ought to be enough to completely negate aerial stealth within flare-range...
But mostly I want to warm up our light magic for optical enhancements...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 29, 2017, 09:09:53 pm
Namely expense. Very Expensive items just don't help much historically. And when the vehicle in question is to carry troops about, I doubt it'd be particularly useful when it's rare.
I've got some ideas, but I'd really prefer to discuss them on Discord. I can definitely do it here if someone else starts, but it's generally easier to discuss something back-and-forth on Discord.
So far:
- Caterpillar Treads: Try fixing our mechanical problems + wheels, increasing the versatility of the vehicle, increasing its speed, etc.
- Expense: See top part. Things like this should be Expensive to have a real impact.
- Anti-magic Resistance: Duh.
- I'd really like to do expense + something else. So if someone has an idea fitting a revision that can do it, please say so.
Also apparently RIP Crystalworks bonus.
Post by: helmacon on June 29, 2017, 09:41:46 pm
I'm hesitant to ask for any more than a few things on the revision though. Probably no more than that.
Post by: RAM on June 29, 2017, 10:07:25 pm
Antimagic resistance is not a revision. It is a dedicated design.
Very expensive is enough to maintain a presence across territory, which is about as much as we can hope for from something like this.
Caterpillar tracks are impossible. We can do it with magic, sure, but the materials simply do not exist to make something sufficiently flexible and durable. Even linked crystal plates would be hoping for too much. It is back to the issue of conveyors. It is the year 1000ish, conveyor belts are not happening unless magic is intervening. If we want to make a shiny new plant with bark that is just right for conveyors? A little bit of stretchiness, zero permanent degradation, largely impervious to cutting or piercing outside of special efforts used in construction... Such a thing would have value in reinforcing armour, spall protection, clean socks, invulnerable flags, weather-proof sails... It is not something that we can't do if we invest the magic into doing it, but it is quite impossible through mundane means. So, basically, this is a design for a new material. Or maybe we want flexible rubber-crystals from a revision...
I w-was soooo close...
Cannon Silencer: Using a special coating of very thin specially made crystal around the barrel of any of our guns from the largest to the smallest, we can vastly decrease the amount of noise they make when they fire. This lets them be fired at a slightly higher speed given that our men no longer need to hunker down before firing a gun, but more importantly it makes the AS-R1 far more useful for sniping by making it much harder to tell where that shot came from, increasing their usefulness for our future Catgirl Assassins or Catboy Snipers.Quote from: Hail Cat2 - Cannon Silencer - FallacyofUrist, RAM
0 - Satin Flares -
Post by: Draignean on June 29, 2017, 10:12:04 pm
Caterpillar tracks are impossible. We can do it with magic, sure, but the materials simply do not exist to make something sufficiently flexible and durable. Even linked crystal plates would be hoping for too much. It is back to the issue of conveyors. It is the year 1000ish, conveyor belts are not happening unless magic is intervening. If we want to make a shiny new plant with bark that is just right for conveyors? A little bit of stretchiness, zero permanent degradation, largely impervious to cutting or piercing outside of special efforts used in construction... Such a thing would have value in reinforcing armour, spall protection, clean socks, invulnerable flags, weather-proof sails... It is not something that we can't do if we invest the magic into doing it, but it is quite impossible through mundane means. So, basically, this is a design for a new material. Or maybe we want flexible rubber-crystals from a revision...
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but weren't caterpillar tracks a thing that already happened on the original restless?
It seems rather unfounded to state that they're impossible when, to the best of my knowledge, they would already existed were it not for a design miscommunication.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 29, 2017, 10:14:34 pm
Point is, it does its job - protects the people inside and brings them across the battlefield. It could do its job much better, but it does it. We just need to have enough of them to make a difference.
Now if only there was some way to combine AM Resistance with an expense reduction. Ooh!
Revision: Crystalworks Mk2 (If anyone has a better name, please tell me. Like something to make Crystalworks sound more industrial/big/encompassing.)
The Crystalworks is an effective tool. Or was. As of late, it hasn't been pulling its load. Our most recent designs simply haven't benefited as they should. According to our Crystalworks engineers, the scale of the designs such as the Steam Engine (and now the IDE) as well as the AS-LFV-1 are simply too great to benefit from the cost reduction the Crystalworks provides.
We've had massive amounts of experience with Crystal since we introduced the Crystalworks. We've figured out the best ways to use it to make larger-scale things like parts for our vehicles. We've used it to make Crystal Glass and Insulating Crystal. We know the in and outs of it. Now it's time to make it better.
We expand the Crystalworks to allow for a more industrial approach. Our improved Magegems are made use of to allow the same number of apprentices to manage more things at once. The building is expanded, and the individual fabricator circuits tweaked to allow for bigger constructions.
This, of course, is tremendously easy. Design reports may say a lot of things are easy, but this is for sure. We know so much about how to get the most potential out of the Crystal works and have had intimate experience with its quirks and flaws. We know exactly what to do and should be able to address it in remarkable times.
As the final part of this revision, possible due to the ease in which we should be able to do the former part, we will also adjust insulating crystal. We've had experience with anti-magic, with using crystal glass to store magic in our improved Magegems, and we've had experience with insulating electricity, a form of energy vaguely similar to that of magic. We use this experience to tweak insulating crystal (or a variant of it) into also insulating against magic.
This isn't some kind of anti-magic device, but rather a device working against anti-magic. Anti-magic "saps" the magic from our circuits, preventing their operation. If we can create a crystal insulating against magic, we can prevent the loss of magic from our circuits and thus prevent anti-magic from affecting our circuits. Perhaps even if we create an enclosed space with AM-Resistant crystal, mages inside could cast spells as normal. But the priority is of course on circuits here.
This new insulating crystal variant is of course to be considered a part of the Crystalworks renovations. As our engineers expand the Crystalworks and upgrade the fabricators, they will also implement the changes to insulating crystal, allowing us to make this magic-insulating AM-resistant crystal.
The overall goal of the design is the increased scale of the Crystalworks first, and the rest second. But it shouldn't be extremely difficult to implement both considering our experience in the field with the latter and our extreme preparedness for the former.
This new Crystalworks should be able to help produce larger designs, decreasing the expense of them just like it does for our other designs. The insulating crystal made possible by this new Crystalworks should allow us to make AM-resistant technology. We expect to make our larger Crystal designs drop in expense, namely the AS-LFV-1 Protector and if time allows, also the IDE/Steam engine. The new AM-resistant crystal is to be prioritized for implementation in the AS-LFV-1 first and other designs (like the AS-R1) second.
TL;DR: Upgrade Crystalworks (using our massive amount of Crystalworks experience+knowledge) in scale (allowing for Crystalworks expense reduction in bigger designs) and to make AM-resistant Crystal for immediate use in the AS-LFV-1. The immediate prioritized effects should be an Expensive AM-resistant AS-LFV-1, with implementations of the new stuff lower in priority, like cost reducing the IDE/Steam engine and AM-resistant-izing our other magitech like the AS-R1.
TL;DR TL;DR: Upgrade Crystalworks to make bigger stuff also drop in expense according to the Crystalworks bonus and to make anti-magic resistant crystal for immediate use in the Protector then maybe the AS-R1. Biggest priority is applying the expense bonus to large-scale projects and thus the AS-LFV-1 Protector. Anti-magic resistance stuff is second.
I kind of want to do the LFV-2 next design. Make a really well-done vehicle. But I know that it definitely would have zero support. But we could address all of the problems at once and add more.
@RAM: Caterpillar Tracks are literally possible.
Remember the first Restless design? That Evicted accidently made when he thought by "tracks" in the Restless design I meant caterpillar tracks? That was with zero experience in powered land vehicles?
We got caterpillar tracks at only a -1 to Effectiveness+Bugs, with zero experience in ever making powered land vehicles beforehand. (Draignean ninja'd me on this)
AM Resistance is not a dedicated design. It is a revision. Evicted already said our circuits are close to AM Resistance (and that our Magegems are AM-resistant).
Expense-wise, you'd be wrong. Very Expensive has historically meant we just get a handful of the design. Like we had ~3 HA1s per theater when they were Very Expensive.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 30, 2017, 02:17:48 am
Does the protector have any armor at all?
I do not see that mentioned.
Right now it looks like a very fancy coffin for when they decide to strike it with lightning.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 30, 2017, 02:26:58 am
I remember when they first made their lightning useful. The men on our Crystalclads hid below the deck during lightning attacks for safety. We can easily infer that our crystal constructions protect our men. Sure, when it's personal armor that surrounds the person and only them, lightning can be lethal. But I doubt it'd be lethal against something of similar type to a vehicle (Crystalclad) lightning is definitively not useful against.
Considering what we know of crystal armor already, the fact that it got a 4 in effectiveness, and the fact that Evicted didn't mention any problems, I'm 100% sure our armor is effective against anything they can throw against us. Lightning I'm 90% sure, though.
And I'm going to vote for my own Crystalworks Mk2 revision for now. If anyone has a better idea regarding the Protector just say so!
Quote
2 - Cannon Silencer: FallacyofUrist, RAM
0 - Satin Flares:
1 - Crystalworks Mk2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7499098#msg7499098): Chiefwaffles
Post by: Andres on June 30, 2017, 02:39:10 am
I w-was soooo close...This is a bad version of a silencer. I will improve upon the base concept.
Cannon Silencer: Using a special coating of very thin specially made crystal around the barrel of any of our guns from the largest to the smallest, we can vastly decrease the amount of noise they make when they fire. This lets them be fired at a slightly higher speed given that our men no longer need to hunker down before firing a gun, but more importantly it makes the AS-R1 far more useful for sniping by making it much harder to tell where that shot came from, increasing their usefulness for our future Catgirl Assassins or Catboy Snipers.Quote from: Hail Cat1 - Cannon Silencer - FallacyofUrist
Silence Circuits: These circuits absorb nearby sound and transform it into magic energy. This creates a silencing effect and can recharge magegems connected to the circuits.
Just add these circuits to anything you want quiet and not only will it be quiet, but it'll also generate magic energy. We could apply it to anything from guns to engines.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: helmacon on June 30, 2017, 02:42:41 am
It is already mentioned that the R1 is well suited to sniping. The lack of smoke + the ability to be fired from a prone position makes them near undetectable at present.
Certainly, we could eliminate the sound and muzzle flash, but it seems unnecessary at present. Es has already said they are hard to detect.
As for the artillery, I don't think they hunker down because of the sound.
Also, I looked up irl artillery silencers. They are fricken massive! And super expensive. I know we are just magicing the sounds away, but still...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 30, 2017, 03:02:34 am
Keep in mind Moskurg literally has a cheap Detect Ambush spell. Furthermore, it's a starter spell. Something that would be insanely easy to modify as they please. If we want to invest further in stealth, we are going to be having to deal with a lot of easy Moskurg counters. Hell, I bet if we tried to invest in stealth more their counter would completely obsolete all of our stealth efforts, not just the improvements provoking their counter.
Right now we have effective semi-stealthy snipers. They are a minor factor, but that's a point which I'm not making right now. Regardless of however minor a factor they are, they work.
If we make them more lethal to Moskurg, you know what Moskurg will do? They'll counter all of it. If we make our snipers able to fire silently, Moskurg will very easily devise their Detect Ambush spell to "Detect Stealth" or "Detect Sniper" or "Detect Ninja". This will completely ruin our advantage in terms of stealth, making it much worse than before we ever tried to improve it. Sure, we could try countering their counter, but in this area it'd just be easier for Moskurg due to their extreme experience in the area. We'll be stuck trying repeatedly to counter their coutners, which they easily undo + more with revisions. They'll be free to focus on lessening our advantage in other areas while we waste our time trying to make stealth nearly as good as it is now.
Point is, if we try to upgrade our stealth capabilities without significant thought, we'll get into a game of counters where we will lose. There's also the point where a cheaper Protector would be much better than increased survivability of our snipers, but that should be obvious at this time.
(Vote for Crystalworks Mk2! It's the best option!)
EDIT: This isn't to say that stealth investment is an overall bad idea. It's just not something that should be done carelessly. If we do upgrade stealth, I think we should start by doing it subtly. Incorporate minor stealth aspects into new designs as tertiary features. Wait until we have enough investment so our stealth can't be instantly and very easily hard countered.
But stealth investment is inferior to upgrading the Protector. It's a useful design. We just need to lower its expense so we can actually make use of it. Very Expensive designs have historically never been that useful. Remember the HA1? How it was a niche item until we made it Expensive, then dominated in every theater until Moskurg developed air units? It's like that.
Post by: VoidSlayer on June 30, 2017, 03:11:02 am
We have gained ground in every theater, we surly have enough samples of half ruined carpets to put a full one together and figure out how the levitation effects work.
Post by: RAM on June 30, 2017, 04:03:52 am
I would further like to suggest that the silencer be an inversion of the antimagic charm that directs the magic of the charm back into the circuitry of the weapon, much as the steam condenser sent the steam back into its own mechanisms.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 30, 2017, 04:54:00 am
Detect Ambush: Reveals non-magical ambushes prepared by enemy troops or physical traps.That's not "a thing that jut tells you if you are walking into a trap." That's a very general use spell.
It's not a long jump to change that. What's the difference between snipers and an ambush really?
Also as a note, the Protector is fairly useless right now. It has a lot of potential but if we just ignore it this turn that's a design wasted. A handful of Protectors will not change anything. It has great potential to really help us but we need to spend at least a single revision on it first. Let's not let our design go to waste.
Post by: RAM on June 30, 2017, 05:18:30 am
A sniper waiting for a target to enter a sighted location is generally regarded as different from an ambush. Don't ask me why but it seems mostly a matter or range and numbers. It seems silly to differentiate them like that, but magic has more respect for semantics and implications than physics does...
"Warn us if we are about to be attacked by Arstozka" and "Locate all enemies within small arms range to useful precision" are extremely powerful spells. The equivalent would be churning dragons out of Summon Wasp. Or using summon fog to make adamant-eatingly corrosive gas...
Snipers do not need to ambush, they can hunt just fine, completely different.
Snipers can act as distractions for infiltrators. Snipers pick off a few then retreat. Hunting parties run out. Then some feline females sneak in and suddenly the Kegger airships develop an interest in unassisted skydiving...
So, sure, they have spells, spells can do stuff, but it isn't really relevant. They could use the same spell to precisely plan out exactly where all our cannon shells are going to land and set up all their stuff in the safe spaces between the eventual impact points. That doesn't mean that it is particularly plausible that they would be able to do so within a practical timeframe.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on June 30, 2017, 05:35:02 am
Our cannons are magical.It is extremely obvious what it means by magical. Men waiting in ambush with weapons, whether those weapons are magic, magic-based, or mundane, is a non-magical ambush. A magical ambush is one that is entirely magic. Like making a place explode when people walk by.
A sniper waiting for a target to enter a sighted location is generally regarded as different from an ambush. Don't ask me why but it seems mostly a matter or range and numbers. It seems silly to differentiate them like that, but magic has more respect for semantics and implications than physics does..."This is wrong. Don't ask me why, but it is."
-RAM
And you're also wrong on the second part. Magic is very loose. "Detect Ambush" does not detect snipers, but snipers are a form of ambush. Note how the spell is "Detect ambush", not "Detect people lying in wait for attack once allied forces enter a proximity within X meters." It's not semantics-based. It's ambush or not. Snipers are fairly similar to ambushes. It'd be easy to revise.
"Warn us if we are about to be attacked by Arstozka" and "Locate all enemies within small arms range to useful precision" are extremely powerful spells. The equivalent would be churning dragons out of Summon Wasp. Or using summon fog to make adamant-eatingly corrosive gas...More RAM Assumptions-Based-On-No-Logical-Or-Empirical-Basis™.
Their starter spell is literally "Detect Ambush". That's what it is. It's extremely easy to add "Snipers" to that because sniping is close to ambushing. It's been well established that their starter spells are better than ours, but we chose our starter spells and have to deal with it.
Snipers do not need to ambush, they can hunt just fine, completely different.It's obvious the similarity between sniping and ambushing and it feels like one would have to act dumb (in the figurative sense, of course) to pretend that similarity doesn't exist.
Snipers can act as distractions for infiltrators. Snipers pick off a few then retreat. Hunting parties run out. Then some feline females sneak in and suddenly the Kegger airships develop an interest in unassisted skydiving...
So, sure, they have spells, spells can do stuff, but it isn't really relevant.What?
They could use the same spell to precisely plan out exactly where all our cannon shells are going to land and set up all their stuff in the safe spaces between the eventual impact points. That doesn't mean that it is particularly plausible that they would be able to do so within a practical timeframe.They already do that. Their spell that does it is just buggy. Probably because of that roll labeled "Bugs".
Post by: evictedSaint on June 30, 2017, 01:39:59 pm
Post by: andrea on June 30, 2017, 01:54:51 pm
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2 - Cannon Silencer: FallacyofUrist, RAM
0 - Satin Flares:
2 - Crystalworks Mk2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7499098#msg7499098): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
Post by: Draignean on June 30, 2017, 02:22:57 pm
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2 - Cannon Silencer: FallacyofUrist, RAM
0 - Satin Flares:
3 - Crystalworks Mk2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7499098#msg7499098): Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Draignean
Post by: helmacon on June 30, 2017, 02:43:40 pm
I'm not super into the giga works, but the silencer us just plain bad.Quote2 - Cannon Silencer: FallacyofUrist, RAM
0 - Satin Flares:
4 - Crystalworks Mk2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7499098#msg7499098): Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Draignean, helmacon
Post by: Kadzar on June 30, 2017, 05:04:22 pm
In an effort to further improve magical storage, we've attempted to tap into the Aether using Prince Bjorn''s research. Currently, we aren't able to make gems generate or draw in energy on their own, but we believe we have managed to create a kind of stable portal that draws energy out equivalent to what was put in. That, or we're creating some sort of magic-storing pocket dimension. We're still a little unsure of what's going on here, but the point is that we've managed to devise a way to store a lot more magical energy than previously thought possible.
Quote
2 - Cannon Silencer: FallacyofUrist, RAM
0 - Satin Flares:
4 - Crystalworks Mk2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7499098#msg7499098): Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Draignean, helmacon
1 - Aether-Enhanced Magegems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7499773#msg7499773): Kadzar
Post by: RAM on June 30, 2017, 07:02:09 pm
We replace the summoning platforms with field projectors, so that the crystal is summoned into a wedge-shaped space that can be expanded indefinitely if provided with enough power. This is in place of the existing summoning platforms that are forced to summon directly atop themselves. This has invested a small difficulty in terms of structure. The rounded nature of a wedge makes straight-lines somewhat of a challenge for mathemagicians to calculate as they are accustomed to getting curves out of cubes rather than cubes out of curves. But given that most of our larger designs are curve-based, this should actually be a benefit, and being able to conjure the parts in a single piece, combined with locomotive transport to support the large pieces, and the inherent curvature of their innate structure, should overall strengthen the designs that make use of large sizes and curves, while more traditional small designs can be produced using the old method to retain the boxier inherent nature that would strengthen small boxes...
Better antimagic design
We reduce the radius of the antimagic charm to almost zero, and then channel the gains into a broadened range of attraction and a more powerful suction. Any magical auras that make contact with these modified charms, or simple circuits linked to them, will be drawn into them and converted into sound as normal. Obviously the primary focus of the attunement is to the enemy antimagic field, although it should act as a general field discharger.
Post by: Urist Mc Dwarf on June 30, 2017, 08:14:50 pm
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2 - Cannon Silencer: FallacyofUrist, RAM[/quote]
0 - Satin Flares:
5 - Crystalworks Mk2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7499098#msg7499098): Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Draignean, helmacon, Urist Mc Dwarf
1 - Aether-Enhanced Magegems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7499773#msg7499773): Kadzar
Post by: Andres on June 30, 2017, 11:21:52 pm
Quote
2 - Cannon Silencer: FallacyofUrist, RAM
0 - Satin Flares:
5 - Crystalworks Mk2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7499098#msg7499098): Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Draignean, helmacon, Urist Mc Dwarf
1 - Aether-Enhanced Magegems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7499773#msg7499773): Kadzar
1 - Improved Magegem Storage Capacity: Andres
It would make +R and +E shells cheap, makes +RE expensive, and give us a powerful completed technology to work from.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Kadzar on July 01, 2017, 01:57:02 pm
That's basically what my revision does; it's just fluffed so that it isn't just saying "make this better in some abstract way" and to get a bonus from the Prince's thesis. But I'm fine with making any modifications you think necessary to work.Quote2 - Cannon Silencer: FallacyofUrist, RAM
0 - Satin Flares:
5 - Crystalworks Mk2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7499098#msg7499098): Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Draignean, helmacon, Urist Mc Dwarf
1 - Aether-Enhanced Magegems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7499773#msg7499773): Kadzar
1 - Improved Magegem Storage Capacity: Andres
It would make +R and +E shells cheap, makes +RE expensive, and give us a powerful completed technology to work from.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Andres on July 01, 2017, 05:59:34 pm
Power Armour - Circuitsuit
The Circuitsuit is a suit of armour different to all other armours that have come before it. It is a full-body skinsuit made of a new form of material - flexible crystal. A variant of crystal, flexible crystal offers similar protection as regular crystal, but is flexible rather than rigid, giving the user much greater flexibility without sacrificing any protection. In fact, the flexible nature of the material means that there wouldn't be any gaps in the armour, improving its protective capabilities compared to our previous armour.
While a new suit of armour made of this new material would be a big step up, the only real "challenge" is making that new material and from the last version of combat armour we made we have found that stopping here is underambitious. With that in mind, it has two additional features.
The first feature is the addition of cooling circuits to keep the wearer at an optimal temperature level. This temperature is of course measured in Celsius. Adding this feature is very basic thanks to our development of scrolls meaning that flexible circuits don't even have to be developed, merely implemented.
The second feature is where the true ambition of the design lies and why it's called a Circuitsuit. With our knowledge and experience with circuits, we can push the envelope of what they're able to achieve. The Circuitsuit features another set of circuits, but with a different purpose to the first set. This second set of circuits is, as its user desires, capable of either increasing the durability of the crystal armour or animating it to an extent, effectively giving the user a boost to strength and speed. This feature is powered by a protected A magegem (or an equivalent amount of AA or AAA magegemts) on the back of the suit, which can provide enough power for 10 continuous minutes of use, though of course it doesn't have to be used up all at once.
Development of the flexible crystal's durability paramaters should only go so far as to ensure that it's as protective as our current crystal when power is run through it to increase its durability. If keeping traditional crystal's durability can be done without increasing design ambition, then it should be done, but otherwise is not a priority.
tl;dr: A bodysuit made out of flexible crystal with two sets of circuits running through it. The first set keeps the user cool (and uses Celsius). The second set can boost the armour's durability or give the user a strength/speed boost by moving the armour. An A magegem (or multiple AA/AAA magegems) powers this ability for up to 10 minutes.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: evictedSaint on July 02, 2017, 12:56:29 am
Through the magic of "spend more money on it", the Crystalworks has recieved a bump in quality. Now an actual building rather than a glorified shed, the factory has enough room to produce larger-scale crystal devices in a single print. A few standard upgrades have likewise been added; a more advanced magegem battery to print in single bursts quicker (although overall speed is still the same, as the entire complex is powered by apprentices), scroll circuits that can be slotted in quicker and easier, and passive nickel circuitry to keep the building a comfortable temperature. More complex crystal structures can be made, such as resistive and non-resistive crystal layering and more complicated shapes.
Greater room for production means HC1-E's, HA1's, and Crystalclads are now Cheap. IDE's and Protectors are now Expensive.
Post by: evictedSaint on July 02, 2017, 01:00:27 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 02, 2017, 01:02:53 am
Post by: Andres on July 02, 2017, 01:09:13 am
1. What is the Crystalworks mk1 made out of? Not the new one, I'm talking about the first version.
2. Where, based on our current advantages and Moskurg's advantages as of the last turn, do our commanders think we have the best chance of gaining victory?
3. The Restless should now be Expensive thanks to the new Crystalworks. It's made out of crystal which drops the price.
Post by: evictedSaint on July 02, 2017, 01:13:03 am
2) your generals assure you the war will be over in three years
3) k
Post by: RAM on July 02, 2017, 01:15:32 am
Post by: Andres on July 02, 2017, 01:16:40 am
1) same stuff smaller scale1. Ok, but what material? Stone, metal, or crystal? If it's made out of crystal, the new crystalworks should drive its price down, giving us Cheap Crystalworks Mk. 1, which means you'll have to decide what the Crystalworks Mk. 1 does when it's Cheap.
2) your generals assure you the war will be over in three years
3) k
3. I made an error. They should just be Expensive. The fact that the Steam Engine was Expensive wasn't affecting the price. The Restless' now-Expensive price tag is bottlenecked by something else other than the Steam Engine. Complexity, probably.
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 02, 2017, 01:19:32 am
2) your generals assure you the war will be over in three years
What? Which general made the treasonous claim we would not instantly win this year!
Post by: Andres on July 02, 2017, 01:22:21 am
We can only advance a maximum of one step each year, regardless of how overpowering we are, likely for logistical reasons involving setting up and securing new supply routes.
2) your generals assure you the war will be over in three years
What? Which general made the treasonous claim we would not instantly win this year!
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 02, 2017, 02:35:28 am
1.) The HC1-E was already Cheap, but the AS-HAC-1 is/was Expensive yet wasn't listed in the revision result. Did you forget to state that the AS-HAC-1 is now Cheap or is this intentional?
2.) The Steam Engine was Expensive, and we got the IDE through a free upgrade to the Steam Engine. So shouldn't the IDE have been Expensive before the revision and should now be Cheap?
3.) I'm assuming "resistive and non-resistive crystal layering" is not retroactive to the designs (Protector + Combat Armor) that tried and failed to apply this technique?
So we may have not gotten anti-magic resistance, but this is still an awesome result. Cheap Crystalclads is amazing. Now we can just drown our enemies in artillery fire on the sea. Same on land thanks to the Cheap HA1. (Hopefully) Cheap AS-HAC-1s should do wonders for point defense and anti-infantry. The Expensive Restless will ensure that we never run out of shells, that we can transport troops between territory faster, and that train derailments are less of a problem due to how many trains we have.
The Expensive Protector means it'll actually be useful. Not as useful as its potential because of anti-magic, but still useful. Even if it gets hit with anti-magic, it's only immobile as long as anti-magic is applied and the soldiers inside can still stay inside for cover. Worst case scenario we can use them as mobile cannons.
Remember that Moskurg's anti-magic is a staff. An expensive(?) one, at that. Their wizards are already rare. The portion of wizards carrying the staff is also small. They have to have the staff in advance. They have to consciously target it. Their anti-magic isn't the same as ours. Ours stops all magic constantly and isn't reliant on a mage to function, but is shorter range.
Their anti-magic won't obsolete the Protector at all. It just means the Protector won't always be able to transport our soldiers straight past their front lines. Just most of the time.
But we have to do AM Resistance next turn. Either as a main feature of a design or its own revision. It should be easier now given that the Crystalworks Mk. 2 is more capable of that kind of thing. AM Resistance will help us in the Protector and the AS-R1.
We could do the AS-R2 now that we have the protector, and include AM resistance as a primary feature.
Also.
Future Revision: Central Power (Requires Aethergem)
In Arstotzka, the need of the people for magitech is growing. Citizens are beginning to see the use of older steam engines no longer in use by the military. Several paranoid citizens and some of the more upper-class citizens in Arstotzka have begun placing defenses on their properties.
This all requires magical energy. Power. Up until this point, we've had apprentices during their time at the Academy power devices around the city, but this is obviously quickly becoming unfeasible.
Our construction corp will oversee the construction of a crystalline tower in the middle of Arstotzka. The tower isn't particarly large or tall, but it's just tall enough to qualify as a tower.
In this tower we will place as many Aethergems as we can. Expense is not a concern, as we will only be needing one tower. The Aethergems shall be linked together via crystal wiring. Underground and/or above ground, crystal wiring will extend from the tower to the homes of the citizenry, factories, and government buildings. The citizens will be able to power their magitechnology without requiring the gift of magic, and our institutions and buildings will operate at increased efficiency without a reliance on clumsy human apprentices.
The immediate benefits are clear. First, the Crystalworks will operate at a much greater speed. The removal of apprentices from the equation mean we can pour as much power into the plant as the circuitry allows. Instead of being bottlenecked by the input of power, the Crystalworks will work at maximum capacity.
...
The idea of the above revision is to 1.) WIN THAT CULTURE UPDATE. 2.) Upgrade Crystalworks (if needed; hopefully with the Mk. 2 the Crystalworks bonus should actually start working now.) and 3.) Do more stuff?
The problem is that we don't have that much magitech that would be used in the cities. The Crystalworks is about it at this point, really.
As for "how the hell is that a revision, Chiefwaffles. Why do you try to sneak designs into revisions so much?!"
The answer is simple. We make a building and stick Aethergems into it, then wire those Aethergems to other buildings as needed. There is no design here. The Crystal makes the building part even easier. This isn't "make a schematic for power plants to use everywhere", this is "make a single building, throw some items that we already have into them, then call it a day."
EDIT:
Send Bjorn to the Plains.
I'm basing this off of a worst case scenario where Moskurg completely counters our new artillery advantage. So I'm choosing the place where we lost the least two combat phases ago. The plains was stated to only be a loss because of our loss of the sea. Which shouldn't be a problem. The Jungle was stated to be extremely close, but was lost because of the tornado, which the Protector soft counters.
The jungle seems to be said to be a lot closer but I'm much more certain that we beat their advantage at the plains - the sea. That and the Protector should have the greatest effect in the plains, where it'll be able to move a lot more freely and with very infrequent terrain-caused breakdowns.
Quote
BJORN
2 - Plains: RAM, Chiefwaffles
Post by: Andres on July 02, 2017, 03:31:19 am
Future Revision: Central Power (Requires Aethergem)When I started reading what this was supposed to do I had guessed that it was meant to reduce the number of apprentices necessary to perform civilian duties to 0, effectively making the AAAA cheap and giving us more apprentices to work with. That, in truth, is probably what Central Power should be trying to do. Our Crystalworks are not bottlenecked by power input.
In Arstotzka, the need of the people for magitech is growing. Citizens are beginning to see the use of older steam engines no longer in use by the military. Several paranoid citizens and some of the more upper-class citizens in Arstotzka have begun placing defenses on their properties.
This all requires magical energy. Power. Up until this point, we've had apprentices during their time at the Academy power devices around the city, but this is obviously quickly becoming unfeasible.
Our construction corp will oversee the construction of a crystalline tower in the middle of Arstotzka. The tower isn't particarly large or tall, but it's just tall enough to qualify as a tower.
In this tower we will place as many Aethergems as we can. Expense is not a concern, as we will only be needing one tower. The Aethergems shall be linked together via crystal wiring. Underground and/or above ground, crystal wiring will extend from the tower to the homes of the citizenry, factories, and government buildings. The citizens will be able to power their magitechnology without requiring the gift of magic, and our institutions and buildings will operate at increased efficiency without a reliance on clumsy human apprentices.
The immediate benefits are clear. First, the Crystalworks will operate at a much greater speed. The removal of apprentices from the equation mean we can pour as much power into the plant as the circuitry allows. Instead of being bottlenecked by the input of power, the Crystalworks will work at maximum capacity.
...
The idea of the above revision is to 1.) WIN THAT CULTURE UPDATE. 2.) Upgrade Crystalworks (if needed; hopefully with the Mk. 2 the Crystalworks bonus should actually start working now.) and 3.) Do more stuff?
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: andrea on July 02, 2017, 03:41:09 am
In part because the endgame is moskurg capital and we are getting close. We must push hard.
In part because that would be the safest for them, so they may send their heir there.
Quote
BJORN
2 - Plains: RAM, Chiefwaffles
MYARK
1 - Desert: Andrea
Post by: helmacon on July 02, 2017, 03:53:45 am
Next turn I think we ought to design the AAR-1 (Arstotzkan auto rifle) and revise the protector to use treads and reduce complexity.
@Es, if we hold the entirety of multiple territories, do we get the advantage of advancing into the desert from multiple fronts?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 02, 2017, 03:57:28 am
Quote
BJORN
3 - Plains: RAM, Chiefwaffles, Helmacon
MYARK
2 - Desert: Andrea, Chiefwaffles
Adding Helmacon's vote and I'm voting for sending Myark to the desert for the same reasons Andrea stated. Let's push and scare Moskurg a little. It'd be great if we could get their heir, too and the Desert is the place where they had the biggest advantage. Relatively. We still won easily, of course.
The best part is that the Protector should also do amazingly well in the desert.
Post by: RAM on July 02, 2017, 04:03:34 am
Post by: Andres on July 02, 2017, 04:07:50 am
Women should be allowed into our army. They are just as numerous as men, so naturally this would double the amount of troops we have.
Quote
BJORN
3 - Plains: RAM, Chiefwaffles, Helmacon
MYARK
2 - Desert: Andrea, Chiefwaffles
1 - Plains: Andres
ORDERS
1 - If Moskurg heir is captured, turn her into an Arstotzkan (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres
1 - Allow women into our army to double our troop count (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres
We should maximise the chance of getting that Revision Credit and ensure our heir survives. Moskurg is going to try to counter our artillery and may send al-Mutriqa.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 02, 2017, 04:16:20 am
Typically the structure of societies around this time (disclaimer: I have no actual source for this and am not particularly qualified) is that the men go to war while women stay at home managing and running society. Sure, not all men go to war, but a significant portion does.
Allowing women into our army would just change that so a portion of men and women stay home to keep things running. If it actually doubled the troop count, then we'd effectively be making our cities ghost towns and destroying our chances at long-term survival.
So the order would mostly serve to advance our culture/society. Which, in my opinion, is not worth rolling at an disadvantage when getting a bad roll actually hurts us.
If we could integrate women into our army just to be progressive that'd be cool and I'd definitely support it, but like I said, doing it for purely progressive/fluff reasons is not worth the very possible negative consequences of a failed roll. I don't really have anything to say on the other order.
Quote
BJORNAnd I doubt Bjorn's going to get wounded into the plains. The enemy would have to counter a significant portion of our artillery advantage (probably more than just explosive shells) and strengthen an existing advantage of theirs to do so. We have the Protector, which will work great in the desert, and a ton of things that just got reduced in Expense. Moskurg would have to do a lot with very good rolls to even get a "very minor victory".
3 - Plains: RAM, Chiefwaffles, Helmacon
MYARK
2 - Desert: Andrea, Chiefwaffles
1 - Plains: Andres
ORDERS
1 - If Moskurg heir is captured, turn her into an Arstotzkan (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres
1 - Allow women into our army to double our troop count (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres
1 - Don't allow women into army (for non sexist reasons, I swear!): Chiefwaffles
Moskurg's not going to expect Myark in the desert. Let's take advantage of that.
Post by: Andres on July 02, 2017, 04:27:46 am
Quote
BJORN
4 - Plains: RAM, Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Andres
MYARK
2 - Desert: Andrea, Chiefwaffles
1 - Plains: Andres
ORDERS
1 - If Moskurg heir is captured, turn her into an Arstotzkan (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres
1 - Allow women into our army to double our troop count (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres
1 - Don't allow women into army (I'm a sexist, you see): Chiefwaffles
There we go.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: andrea on July 02, 2017, 06:08:51 am
Quote
BJORN
4 - Plains: RAM, Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Andres
MYARK
2 - Desert: Andrea, Chiefwaffles
1 - Plains: Andres
ORDERS
1 - If Moskurg heir is captured, turn her into an Arstotzkan (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres
1 - Allow women into our army to double our troop count (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres
2 - Don't allow women into army (For keeping long term society viable): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
While mixed army is not inherently bad and we are starting to acquire weapons that make female soldiers more viable (Rifles, APCs, stuff that doesn't require you to be an hulking mass of muscle), using women to double our army ranks will depopulate our cities and cripple our long term chances. While it can be done at times of desperation ( WW2 Russia), it is a BAD thing.
A better way would be drafting the same total number of soldiers from both sexes, but then nothing is gained except culture.
One thing we could do, if we were willing to risk the roll, would be to start actively seeking magical talent in women as well. Mage academy shouldn't be as demographically taxing and more magic users are always good.
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 02, 2017, 07:12:44 am
Post by: evictedSaint on July 02, 2017, 09:24:51 am
1) forgot
2) no
3) correct
@helmacon
Moskurg didn't when they were advancing on the seas, so no.
@everyone
Orders are rolled at a disadvantage. 1 backfires, with the backfire proportional to the ambition of the roll. 2 means it fails, and 3-6 is varying degrees of success.
Post by: Andres on July 02, 2017, 01:15:59 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: andrea on July 02, 2017, 01:16:47 pm
Post by: Andres on July 02, 2017, 01:47:43 pm
in this age, isn't the remaining 90% mostly stuck producing food for the rest?Not with dogwood wands. We have a fair amount of surplus we're not tapping into. Also, we already have female wizards.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on July 02, 2017, 04:50:55 pm
Also, we already have female wizards.Source? I don't doubt you I just did not think that this was a thing.
Post by: Andres on July 02, 2017, 06:16:41 pm
Also, we already have female wizards.Source? I don't doubt you I just did not think that this was a thing.
Expense Credit: Arstotzka's Academy of Adequate Apprenticeship
The Academy has done a good job of training new apprentices in the mystical arts of mathemagics, but the limiting factor isn't the training - it's the enrollment. For a fine as the Academy is, it could house so many more burgeoning young mages than it currently does. Clearly, we need to find more apprentices.
The AAAA is proud to offer its very first military scholarship! By scouring the nearby villages and towns for youngsters with even the most remote hint of magical or mathematical talent and offering them a scholarship to attend the very prestigious Academy, we can almost double the amount of apprentices we can field. The only catch is that the individual must agree to serve two years in the Arstotzkan Military after their three-month education, but afterwards they're free to return to their villages and use their magic to improve the quality of life for their friends, neighbors, and family.
We get more sign-ups once we remove the mortality rate of apprentices from the flyer, but mathemagical talent is rare to find. Still, the halls of the AAAA are soon bustling with young men and women who will one day serve Arstotzka proudly on the front lines.
Glory to Arstotzka. Expensive
Note: you've about tapped all the magic users in your country. Newer ones are being born all the time and coming of age, but at the moment the only ones you don't have are the ones who've declined the offer.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Andres on July 02, 2017, 06:50:22 pm
This vast network of circuitry and aethergem stations spans across the whole of Arstotzka. This network does two things things. First, it will obsolete the necessity of apprentices to perform civilian duties, taking them out of their unbearably cushy, high-paying job and allowing them to do what they obviously want to do most - fight for Arstotzka against the Moskurg menace on the front lines.
Second, by connecting the dogwood wands to the CAN, we can have them constantly producing food in every Arstotzkan farm. This will massively increase the amount of food Arstotzka produces. The full effects of this are thus:
1. The significantly lower manpower requirements will allow more of our people to join the army, increasing the amount of troops we have.
2. The vastly increased food surplus will directly lead to a vastly increased birth rate, resulting in even more troops and more Arstotzkans born with magical potential.
With this design, we can overwhelm Moskurg with superior numbers on top of our already superior magical prowess.
Glory to Arstotzka.
((EDIT: Sorry, meant to edit this into my previous post.))
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 02, 2017, 07:18:06 pm
Managed by the new Arstotzkan Agency of Power, the Aethergem Spire is a groundbreaking innovation.
The spire is constructed entirely of crystal in, of course, the shape of a spire. The glistening spire shall be placed at the center of our cities. In each spire, columns and rows of crystal studded with Aethergem will be linked up, creating a massive power generation plant. Every Aethergem is linked. At the center of the spire lies a Central Magegem Battery where numerous A Magegems are linked in order to create a simple buffer in case the power input ever breaks up with the output.
At the top of the spire is the Control Room. Complicated circuitry here is linked up to AAA Magegems to create a control panel, where we use the charged status of AAA Magegems to indicate the status of the Spire. For example, an AAA Magegem labeled "OUTPUT ON" will only be lit when the Spire is outputting power. In this case, the output of power leads the specific AAA Magegem to be charged specifically, lighting it up.
There are many different lights for different statuses, and there are some buttons and the like for managing the plant as well. The Spire's operation does not require a mage and can be manned by any properly trained human, magical or not.
The Spire is connected via underground crystal wiring to anything in our cities that requires power. The Crystalworks is the obvious first example. No longer will it be limited by the apprentices, and it will receive limitless amounts of power from the Spire.
Dogwood farms are the next example, as a minor part of this design, we will quickly adapt the Dogwood Wand to work with circuitry. Considering the similarity of circuitry to wands, this shouldn't be a problem. But with this done, we will adapt our farms to be constantly aided by Dogwood powered by the Spire itself. We will have extreme amounts of food grown quickly and with less human labor.
The next primary benefit is civilian industry. Crystal may be the material of the future, but there still is and always will be demand for industry and production of non-crystal goods. Enterprising civilians have purchased old steam engines before, but the magical requirements have made the cost prohibitive. By allowing factory owners and other civilians to use the Spire's power for their steam engines and other technology, we hope to bring about an era of change as our cities industrialize.
This isn't particularly noticeable in the military immediately, but we're sure there's a benefit there somewhere.
There's also heating and cooling. Before, our civilians and civil buildings relied on furnaces for heat. These furnaces had to be constantly maintained and supplied with fuel, and when fuel runs out the building quickly becomes cold. Civilians have perished in the cold before, and poor civilians have to go without furnaces.
With the Spire, we can base our heating off of two methods: Firewalls and heating circuitry. New buildings as they're built and retrofitted important old buildings will be fitted with climate circuitry, keeping them at a constant comfortable temperature. Other buildings will be fit with firewall furnaces, always on without need for fuel. Our cities will be lands of warmth.
There's an interesting effect, too. AAA and AA Magegems produce a notable amount of light when fully charged. Of course, they aren't extremely illuminating, but they produce enough light to rival streetlights and similar civilian lighting.
With the ability to draw power from the spire, our cities will be lit by AAA and AA Magegems. Our civilians' homes will have these magegems instead of obsolete torches and lanterns. Our streets will be lit by magegems. It'll be a wondrous sight.
With the Spire, we aim to transform our cities. They'll become legendary lands of wonder across the globe, inspiring and awing those who hear of Arstotzka only in passing. The land of unlimited warmth. Of magical lighting all day and all night. Where the farms grow unnaturally quick and the civilians always have food. Tales will be told of that mystical city in the taiga kept warm, fed, and illuminated magically constantly for everyone.
TL;DR: A power plant to be put in every one of our important cities. With the power, we'll be able to constantly run dogwood farms, the Crystalworks, industry, and make our cities constantly magically warmed and illuminated for everyone.
Benefits:
1.) Faster Crystalworks. It has been stated in the Mk. 2 revision that our Crystalworks' speed is bottlenecked by the apprentices powering the facility. This design could lead to some expense reductions, likely.
2.) Dogwood farms (quickly+easily adapted to use circuits) will constantly run without human requirement, allowing us to grow food a lot faster and without the need for apprentices.
3.) Civilian steam engine industry. I don't know how we translate this to a military benefit, but it feels like we should be able to.
4.) Civilian lighting. Our streets and buildings can use AA/AAA Magegems as lighting. It's not practical for military use and not that bright, but our cities will be largely lit by Magegems.
5.) Civilian heating(/cooling). We can implement climate control circuitry in buildings to keep them at a comfortable temperature, and in buildings not important enough to be fit with circuitry we can have firewall furnaces that'll always keep occupants warm regardless of fuel or maintenance.
6.) Primitive control panels. The spire uses AAA Magegems as little lights along with labels to allow one to easily see the status of a Spire at a glance, and allow them to manipulate the Spire with the pressing of switches+buttons. This should pave the way for cooler screen/input technology in the future.
Post by: Andres on July 02, 2017, 08:00:50 pm
Through the magic of "spend more money on it", the Crystalworks has recieved a bump in quality.
New Spell: Spend More Money on It
This magic spell reduces the expense level of designs, relative to how expense the spell itself is. If it's a National Effort, it reduces the expense level of 1 design. If Spend More Money on It is Very Expensive, it can reduce the expense level of 2 designs, or reduce the expense level of 1 design by 2 levels. This effect lasts only on the turn it's cast.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 04, 2017, 02:36:31 am
Design: AS-R2 Service Rifle
The AS-R2 is the weapon for the new age of magic and technology. The definitive weapon, to be eventually issued to every one of our soldiers. Soon, a day will come when the crystal axe is but an artifact of the past, reserved for the rare instance when Moskurgers manage to get into melee range.
The AS-R2's main improvement is the magazine. What was preventing the effective use of the AS-R1 in infantry combat was its rate of fire. Sure, breech-loading can make our cannons effective weapons, but it's not enough for the fast-paced nature of melees.
Spoiler: Mundane Self-Loading (click to show/hide)
The AS-R2 was initially planned to utilize mechanical means of self-loading new bullets, but our Mathemagicians found this boring, "not cool enough", and still required loading of clips of bullets.
So we did something new. A miniaturized fabricator scroll similar to the ones we have in the Crystalworks lies in the rifle. Making the scroll small enough to fit in the rifle is easy. Fabricator circuits/scrolls radically grow in size with complexity, but a bullet is a relatively simple shape and our new Crystalworks fabricators from the Mk. 2 Crystalworks make this even easier.
The crystal fabricator, being circuit-based, is easily activated automatically by the firing circuits after the previous bullet leaves the chamber. Of course, recoil is still an issue and fabricating Crystal isn't completely instant, so the gun isn't fully automatic by any definition. We've slowed the fabrication process compared to the Crystalworks to allow for increased energy efficiency. Yet its rate of fire is extremely faster than anything we've ever made before.
The Crystal bullet is tweaked to be made out of slightly heavier durable crystal. The tweaks here are of course minor. They're not in any shape or form able to be applied elsewhere, but are just enough to allow the crystal bullets to be on par with their more regular counterparts.
The gun can be powered via three methods:
1.) Crystal wiring input slots near the handle and near the back can be connected to external power sources, allowing the gun to be operated as if a wizard was using it by anyone. We don't have anything that can take advantage of this yet, but having this input ready is very easy to do.
2.) Direct operation by a mage is easy and very viable, as mages can fire the weapon without stopping to reload.
3.) Operation by a mundane user is slightly different. The AS-R2 is powered by two AA Magegems inserted into the bottom. The AA Magegems are paired and attached together in a clip to be easy to reload. The two Magegems have enough power combined for two firings. The SPSF-C powering the AS-R1 still left some energy in the AA Magegem, just not enough to be useful. We can use this to power the crystal fabrication.
The barrel of the gun takes advantage of the Crystalworks Mk. 2 to be much more exact in its construction and rifling, ensuring great accuracy increases. We're aiming for the AS-R2 to remain accurate up to Extreme range (which is its max range), but remaining accurate to Long range would also be acceptable.
Finally, a scope is placed on the top of the gun using modified Crystal Glass (again taking advantage of the more precise and easier-to-use processes of the Mk. 2 Crystalworks!) that magnifies whatever's behind the glass. This "Optical Crystal" can be used to allow the user to see precisely at Extreme ranges, and perhaps even spot for artillery at BLOS(+1). We doubt it'd be useful for sniping at BLOS even if the gun could reach that far, but we don't need that. The Scope can be attached and detached as necessary.
The Crystalworks Mk. 2 should allow for the Rifle to be Cheap in construction. Though mundane users are bottlenecked by the Magegem cost, the actual rifle itself should be Cheap thanks to the new Crystalworks being able to more effectively fabricate complex shapes and whatnot. The AS-R1 never benefitted from the Crystalworks despite its brethren like the AS-HAC-1 receiving cost reductions.
If we have time left in the project, we wish to use the enhanced nature of the Crystalworks to implement magic-insulating crystal into the design, protecting the circuits from anti-magic and allowing the rifle to operate in anti-magic fields. Even better would be implementing this design into the circuitry of the AS-LFV-1 Protector.
The result shall be amazing. A rifle that doesn't require loading of bullets! For our Mages, this shall be a devastating weapon, allowing them to continuously fire without reload. The fact that every mage will be getting one should even assuage our Mages' (and Bjorn's) dislike of being human batteries! With this weapon, our mages shall be able to become devastating weapons of war.
Even our mundane infantry shall benefit. The AS-R2 completely obsoletes the longbow by being accurate, deadlier, and quicker-firing. Even if they have to load in a new Magegem clip between 2 firings, their rate of fire shall experience drastic improvements compared to the much harder bullet breech-loading and Magegem loading every single firing in the AS-R1.
Snipers shall rejoice as they can accurately snipe enemy officers from safety. As they can easily spot and acquire new targets then accurately and quickly dispatch them.
Artillery operators and
TL;DR: A new rifle. The main improvement is the loading. Instead of being boring and just implementing self-loading, we give the AS-R2 a crystal fabricator like the Crystalworks. It fabricates new crystal bullets on the fly. This lets our mages fire without reloading, and means our mundane troops only have to load Magegems. Accuracy improvements mean it should at least have an Effective Range of Long, if not Extreme. It should be Cheap for wizards and as soon as we upgrade Magegems/get Aethergems, it should also become Cheap for mundanes as well. The scope makes it much better for sniping. It also serves as a better spotting tool. Anti-magic resistance is frankly unlikely, and should be done first in revisions if we don't get it.
A devastating weapon to bring about a new age of warfare!
Bullet Fabrication - We make a scroll fabricating (machine) crystal bullets that're as effectively tough+heavy as regular bullets (should be easy given size). Should actually be relatively easy given the Crystalworks Mk. 2 and the simple structure of bullets. Fabrication is done automatically because it's a circuit and we already have a circuit controlling firing, but the gun isn't automatic because 1.) Recoil and 2.) Fabrication isn't completely instant (we intentionally nerf fabrication time to increase energy efficiency). Should massively increase rate of fire. Especially for mages. See Power Requirements for more details.
Accuracy - Take advantage of the Crystalworks Mk. 2's more precise fabrication abilities to make more consistent and precise rifling+barrels, increasing accuracy. The rifle's max range is already Extreme, but the AS-R1 is accurate only up to Medium. We aim to increase accuracy to at least Long if not Extreme. Shouldn't be hard because it's basically just getting a fairly-reasonable benefit from the Crystalworks Mk. 2. It can make more complicated structures easily, so just apply that here.
Scope - Modify Crystal Glass (using our extreme knowledge in modifying Crystal + the Crystalworks Mk. 2) to magnify distant targets. Put a scope made out of the stuff on the rifle, and allow it to be taken on/put back on in the field.
Power Requirements/Loading - Add tiny slots to allow an external power connection if/when we develop that. A wizard can operate it for as long as they want, being free of bullet requirements. Mundanes use 2x AA Magegem clips that can power 2 firings (and new bullets) each. Fluff why: The SPSF-C doesn't completely drain an AA Magegem, so we can use the extra energy to power bullet fabrication. The magegem reloading is still much faster than loading a new Magegem and bullet in the AS-R1 and only has to be done per 2 firings, making the RoF really fast compared to anything else.
Anti-magic Resistance - Low priority. Use the Crystalworks Mk. 2's ability to create more advanced structures to make magic-insulating crystal (based off of resistive crystal) so we can make the AS-R2 immune to anti-magic. If done, preferably also applied to the Protector as well.
Expense - The Crystalworks Mk. 2 bonus never applied to the AS-R1 even though it applied to the AS-HAC-1 (I may bring this up with evicted directly). So expense-wise, we're basically using a "resource expense credit" here like we did with the Mountains metal bonus and the first Crystalworks bonus when revising our old stuff into crystal construction. So making the rifle Cheap should be extremely easy. Of course for mundane users they're still bottlenecked by Expensive AA magegems.
Difficulty - (Relatively) surprisingly easy, thanks to the Crystalworks Mk. 2. Bullet fabrication is just applying something we already have to the rifle and having it produce a simple crystal shape, made easier by the Mk. 2. Accuracy is just leveraging the more precise nature of the Mk. 2. And the scope is a modification of Crystal Glass exploiting, you guessed it, the Crystalworks Mk. 2.
EDIT: Here's a design for a walker! Wizard-only, but once we get Aethergems we can maybe revise a mundane version. We need breakthroughs in control tech first, though. The AS-R2 or another foray into crystal bullet fabrication is required, however. Anti-magic resistance is obviously a necessity.
I should also ask Evicted about the (minimum) size of the IDE so I can plan the design better.
Future(?) Design: AS-MCU-1 "Walker"
Mechanized Combat Unit
The AS-MCU-1 Walker is an amazing creation. In a way, a man made out of crystal. With joints powered by unnatural means. Strength that the strongest human could never hope to rival. A menacing off-putting presence announcing its place on the battlefield.
The walker is shaped vaguely like a humanoid with a slightly larger torso in proportion to the rest of its parts, and the lack of a head. Size-wise, it's somewhere between two and three times as tall as the average soldier.
The pilot is strapped into the torso, in a cockpit covered with Crystal Glass. Hidden ventilation, similar to the combat armor, allows breathing. Entry and departure is a lengthy process, designed to ensure that the cockpit is as secure as possible during combat. A soldier will enter combat in a Walker, and leave combat in a Walker.
In the torso, behind the pilot, lies the Internal Detonation Engine. Breakthroughs in crystal gears enhanced by circuits allow for the IDE to quickly and nimbly move the Walker as if it were a human.
The Walker's left "hand" is actually an AS-HAC-1, adapted to use the crystal shell fabrication found in the AS-R2. The cannon requires no direct labor to operate. The blastball is remotely controlled by circuitry. The bullet is automatically created by the integrated crystal fabricator. Maintenance is of course obsolete to the regenerating crystal. The integrated AS-HAC-1 is a formidable weapon. Extreme agility, fast loading, on this armored frame allows for it to be unmatched in combat.
On the right "hand" is a giant crystal broadsword, to slash into crowds of foolish massed Moskurger infantry.
The Walker is controlled by advance circuitry "linking" to a Wizard. While the concept of linking circuits to minds may seem complicated when put that way, it's shockingly simple. In a way, the wizards cast "spells" into the input circuits. Things like "go this way", or "move my right arm like this", all while supplying the magical power required to operate the mechanism. The circuits translate these "spells" into the finer input required.
We hope to some day adapt the Walker for use by mundane soldiers. We believe we can utilizing Aethergems and a more advanced application of our mind magic. We're not even aiming at attempting this in the Walker design, but some day.
Armor on the Walker can of course resist anything Moskurg can throw at us. The nature of Crystal makes this easy, and the power of the IDE means we can afford to make something heavy. Ballistae bolts aren't a problem at all. Lightning is c
The Walker will be a devastating weapon of mass destruction. Unstoppable by anything Moskurg can throw at us. Able to lay ruin to entire squads with its cannon and swords. Able to tank anything. Agile, nimble, quick. A weapon of the future for sure.
TL;DR: A basic mech with a sword and cannon.
Armor - Standard crystal armor resists all standard Moskurger weapons. Lightning is countered by resistive crystal layering, something which we have and don't even have to work at to implement thanks to the Crystalworks Mk. 2.
Weapons - A giant crystal broadsword in one hand, and an integrated AS-HAC-1 in the other. The AS-HAC-1 is unremarkable except for the fact that it uses the crystal fabricator of the AS-R2. Considering how easily we did things like this before (implementing breech loading from the AS-HAC-1 into all other cannons. Sure, we got a 6, but this was in addition to fixing breech loading), this shouldn't be a problem. This means the AS-HAC-1 can fire much more quickly and doesn't have to be manually loaded.
Locomotion - Gears (enhanced by circuits) powered by an IDE. Main innovation here is basically upping our knowledge of mechanics so we can handle this stuff. Considering that this is the primary focus of the design, it shouldn't really add much difficulty to the design.
Appearance/Structure - Roughly humanoid (2-3x as large as avg. human), but with a proportionally large torso (to fit the pilot and the IDE behind the pilot) and no head ('cause we don't need a head). It has no hands, and has weapons (sword+cannon) where its hands would be. It's entirely armored in crystal and has a crystal glass "cockpit" where the pilot is strapped in. To ensure that the cockpit is secure during combat, entry/exit is a long process.
This is possible. We can actually do this. Everything's in place. We have the mechanical knowledge. We have the engine. We have the materials. We can do this!
Also, we should totally make a Flamethrower. We have everything we need to do it. Hell, it should actually be really easy to make one.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 04, 2017, 07:13:45 am
The rifle is a good idea, but I'm still pushing for catgirls.
1. Stealth! Possibly magically aided!
2. Reflexes!
3. Night Vision! Excellent lookouts!
4. Emergency Claws!
5. Morale Boost because Cuteness!
6. Excellent building blocks for other modifications!
7. Surprise value!
8. Diversification!
Join the feline dark side!
Post by: andrea on July 04, 2017, 07:34:04 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 04, 2017, 12:07:39 pm
Quote
BJORN
4 - Plains: RAM, Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Andres, voidslayer
MYARK
2 - Desert: Andrea, Chiefwaffles
1 - Plains: Andres, voidslayer
ORDERS
1 - If Moskurg heir is captured, turn her into an Arstotzkan (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres
1 - Allow women into our army to double our troop count (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres
2 - Don't allow women into army (For keeping long term society viable): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
1 - No orders this turn, let culture take it's natural course: Voidslayer
I really do not like any of those orders, also we should totally have Myark work with our heir to push the plains, we can maybe get a double front in the desert.
Post by: Andres on July 04, 2017, 03:08:25 pm
I really do not like any of those orders, also we should totally have Myark work with our heir to push the plains, we can maybe get a double front in the desert.Your objection seems to be a cultural one, but the one where we turn the heir into an Arstotzkan is completely strategic. It would be a massive blow to Moskurg morale. Please vote for it, or at least don't vote against it.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on July 04, 2017, 03:42:09 pm
Quote
BJORN
4 - Plains: RAM, Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Andres, voidslayer
MYARK
2 - Desert: Andrea, Chiefwaffles
1 - Plains: Andres, voidslayer
ORDERS
1 - If Moskurg heir is captured, turn her into an Arstotzkan (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres
1 - Allow women into our army to double our troop count (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres
0 - Allow women into our army with no expectations on troop count because valkyries:
2 - Don't allow women into army (For keeping long term society viable): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
0 - Don't allow mundane women into army but continue to let them be magical forces:
1 - No orders this turn, let culture take it's natural course: Voidslayer
1 Let widows join as mundane troops for revenge: RAM
Post by: Andres on July 04, 2017, 04:32:36 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 04, 2017, 04:39:30 pm
Quote
BJORN
4 - Plains: RAM, Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Andres, voidslayer
MYARK
2 - Desert: Andrea, Chiefwaffles
1 - Plains: Andres, voidslayer
ORDERS
1 - If Moskurg heir is captured, turn her into an Arstotzkan (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres
1 - Allow women into our army to double our troop count (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres
0 - Allow women into our army with no expectations on troop count because valkyries:
2 - Don't allow women into army (For keeping long term society viable): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
0 - Don't allow mundane women into army but continue to let them be magical forces:
2 - No orders this turn, let culture take it's natural course: Voidslayer, Chiefwaffles
1 Let widows join as mundane troops for revenge: RAM
I'm just going to vote for no orders.
Post by: RAM on July 04, 2017, 04:40:17 pm
Quote
BJORN
4 - Plains: RAM, Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Andres, voidslayer
MYARK
2 - Desert: Andrea, Chiefwaffles
1 - Plains: Andres, voidslayer
ORDERS
2 - If Moskurg heir is captured, turn her into an Arstotzkan (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres, RAM
1 - Allow women into our army to double our troop count (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres
0 - Allow women into our army with no expectations on troop count because valkyries:
2 - Don't allow women into army (For keeping long term society viable): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
0 - Don't allow mundane women into army but continue to let them be magical forces:
2 - No orders this turn, let culture take it's natural course: Voidslayer, Chiefwaffles
1 Let widows join as mundane troops for revenge: RAM
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 04, 2017, 04:59:56 pm
Quote
BJORN
5 - Plains: RAM, Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Andres, voidslayer, FallacyofUrist
1 - Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES send him into the thick, even with a Protector.
1 - Make sure he learns to use an AS-R1.
MYARK
2 - Desert: Andrea, Chiefwaffles
3 - Plains: Andres, voidslayer, FallacyofUrist
ORDERS
3 - If Moskurg heir is captured, turn her into an Arstotzkan (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres, RAM, FallacyofUrist
Addendum - 1 - Introduce her to catgirl culture: FallacyofUrist
1 - Allow women into our army to double our troop count (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres
0 - Allow women into our army with no expectations on troop count because valkyries:
2 - Don't allow women into army (For keeping long term society viable): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
0 - Don't allow mundane women into army but continue to let them be magical forces:
3 - No orders this turn, let culture take it's natural course: Voidslayer, Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist(except allowing widows to join as mundane troops)
2 - Let widows join as mundane troops for revenge: RAM, FallacyofUrist
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 04, 2017, 05:06:13 pm
QuoteBJORN
5 - Plains: RAM, Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Andres, voidslayer, FallacyofUrist
MYARK
2 - Desert: Andrea, Chiefwaffles
3 - Plains: Andres, voidslayer, FallacyofUrist
ORDERS
3 - If Moskurg heir is captured, turn her into an Arstotzkan (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres, RAM, FallacyofUrist
Addendum - 1 - Introduce her to catgirl culture: FallacyofUrist
1 - Allow women into our army to double our troop count (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres
0 - Allow women into our army with no expectations on troop count because valkyries:
2 - Don't allow women into army (For keeping long term society viable): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
0 - Don't allow mundane women into army but continue to let them be magical forces:
4 - No orders this turn, let culture take it's natural course: Voidslayer, Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist(except allowing widows to join as mundane troops), Andrea
2 - Let widows join as mundane troops for revenge: RAM, FallacyofUrist
1 - Bjorn; Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES send him into the thick, even with a Protector.
1 - Bjorn; Make sure he learns to use an AS-R1.
Andrea agreed on Discord to vote for No Orders, so I'm adding it to the votes for him. I also added Fallacy's added Bjorn-related orders to ORDERS instead of BJORN. Even though we almost definitely won't need to roll for it, they're still orders.
Post by: Andres on July 04, 2017, 05:47:24 pm
Quote
BJORNFallacyofUrist, you're at once voting to convert the heir and to not give orders. That is contradictory.
5 - Plains: RAM, Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Andres, voidslayer, FallacyofUrist
MYARK
2 - Desert: Andrea, Chiefwaffles
3 - Plains: Andres, voidslayer, FallacyofUrist
ORDERS
3 - If Moskurg heir is captured, turn her into an Arstotzkan (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres, RAM, FallacyofUrist
Addendum - 1 - Introduce her to catgirl culture: FallacyofUrist
1 - Allow women into our army to double our troop count (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres
0 - Allow women into our army with no expectations on troop count because valkyries:
2 - Don't allow women into army (For keeping long term society viable): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
0 - Don't allow mundane women into army but continue to let them be magical forces:
4 - No orders this turn, let culture take it's natural course: Voidslayer, Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist(except allowing widows to join as mundane troops), Andrea
3 - Let widows join as mundane troops for revenge: RAM, FallacyofUrist, Andres
1 - Bjorn; Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES send him into the thick, even with a Protector.
1 - Bjorn; Make sure he learns to use an AS-R1.
1 - Bjorn; Issue no special orders regarding Bjorn: Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: helmacon on July 04, 2017, 06:11:27 pm
Quote
BJORN
5 - Plains: RAM, Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Andres, voidslayer, FallacyofUrist
MYARK
3 - Desert: Andrea, Chiefwaffles, helmacon
3 - Plains: Andres, voidslayer, FallacyofUrist
ORDERS
3 - If Moskurg heir is captured, turn her into an Arstotzkan (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres, RAM, FallacyofUrist
Addendum - 1 - Introduce her to catgirl culture: FallacyofUrist
1 - Allow women into our army to double our troop count (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres
0 - Allow women into our army with no expectations on troop count because valkyries:
2 - Don't allow women into army (For keeping long term society viable): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
0 - Don't allow mundane women into army but continue to let them be magical forces:
4 - No orders this turn, let culture take it's natural course: Voidslayer, Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist(except allowing widows to join as mundane troops), Andrea
3 - Let widows join as mundane troops for revenge: RAM, FallacyofUrist, Andres
1 - Bjorn; Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES send him into the thick, even with a Protector.
1 - Bjorn; Make sure he learns to use an AS-R1.
1 - Bjorn; Issue no special orders regarding Bjorn: Andres
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 04, 2017, 11:18:26 pm
1.) The Desert is the safest place for Moskurg's heir. It was the place where they lost the least last turn, so chances are they're going to try to send their heir there. It would be extremely dumb for them to send their heir to any place else, as the desert is where they're most likely to win.
2.) Moskurg will likely send Al-whatshisface to protect their heir in the desert.
3.) If Myark and Al-face meet, then Bjorn will be safe and sound in the Plains where we have the greatest pre-explosive ammunition advantage + Protector advantage + Expensive Restless advantage. Meanwhile, we will have new advantages in the desert (same as Plains - Expensive Restless, cheaper cannons, and the Protector which should excel in the Desert terrain) that should ensure that Myark will win over Al-face, and thus ensure our victory over the desert, denying Moskurg the revision credit.
4.) If Al-face is sent to the Plains, then Myark will almost certainly ensure victory over the desert while our advantages in the plains means that even with Al-face there, Bjorn will almost definitely survive if not win.
My point is, the Desert and Plains should be places where we will win fairly easily. Most of our designs this turn help in the Desert and Plains the most - the Protector will work the best in the flatter terrain. The Expensive Restless will be a lot more effective at transporting men and ammunition in the terrain. Our now-Cheap HA1s and now-cheap-every-other-cannon have always been best in the Plains and Desert.
With Myark facing Moskurg's heir, we'll definitely deny them the revision credit. With Myark facing Al-face and their heir in the desert, we'll still have a significant chance of denying them a revision credit while practically ensuring our victory of the challenge in the plains with unopposed Bjorn.
TL;DR: They will almost definitely have their heir in the Desert. But if they have their Hero and their Heir in the Desert, we will likely lose there. Sending Myark there will greatly increase our chances of hurting their Heir. We don't need Myark to protect Bjorn, as we will already have a great advantage in the Plains. If they do send their Hero to the plains, we will be able to easily take their heir (again, it'd be idiotic for them to send their heir anywhere else) and the desert while they have a much smaller chance of even wounding Bjorn.
Also remember that Myark has the wand of true light, which is a really powerful theatre-scale weapon.
Post by: evictedSaint on July 04, 2017, 11:20:15 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 04, 2017, 11:34:28 pm
Oh man, I can't wait to roll each of those eight orders at a disadvantage.
At least mine doesn't count as a ninth!
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 04, 2017, 11:36:53 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 05, 2017, 12:14:15 am
VoidSlayer! Do the right thing! Vote to send Myark to the desert so we can truly cement victory!
Wait what? I was trying to make trees that resist lighting and fire, down here in the underdomes while fighting off beast monsters.
I vote to send Myark to the deserts instead of the plains. Mathmagics help us all.
Post by: helmacon on July 05, 2017, 12:23:46 am
Oh man, I can't wait to roll each of those eight orders at a disadvantage.someone add me to no orders please.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 05, 2017, 12:26:25 am
Quote
BJORN
5 - Plains: RAM, Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Andres, voidslayer, FallacyofUrist
MYARK
4 - Desert: Andrea, Chiefwaffles, helmacon, VoidSlayer
2 - Plains: Andres, FallacyofUrist
ORDERS
3 - If Moskurg heir is captured, turn her into an Arstotzkan (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres, RAM, FallacyofUrist
Addendum - 1 - Introduce her to catgirl culture: FallacyofUrist
1 - Allow women into our army to double our troop count (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres
0 - Allow women into our army with no expectations on troop count because valkyries:
2 - Don't allow women into army (For keeping long term society viable): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
0 - Don't allow mundane women into army but continue to let them be magical forces:
5 - No orders this turn, let culture take it's natural course: Voidslayer, Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist(except allowing widows to join as mundane troops), Andrea, helmacon
3 - Let widows join as mundane troops for revenge: RAM, FallacyofUrist, Andres
0 - Bjorn; Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES send him into the thick, even with a Protector.
0 - Bjorn; Make sure he learns to use an AS-R1.
1 - Bjorn; Issue no special orders regarding Bjorn: Andres
Post by: RAM on July 05, 2017, 12:26:53 am
Quote
BJORN
5 - Plains: RAM, Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Andres, voidslayer, FallacyofUrist
MYARK
4 - Desert: Andrea, Chiefwaffles, helmacon, VoidSlayer
2 - Plains: Andres, FallacyofUrist
ORDERS
3 - If Moskurg heir is captured, turn her into an Arstotzkan (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres, RAM, FallacyofUrist
Addendum - 2 - Introduce her to catgirl culture: FallacyofUrist, RAM
Addendum - 1 - Retrocon a catgirl culture, complete with ancient epic poems of glorious bloodshed and fishnet-bags filled with human heads: RAM
1 - Allow women into our army to double our troop count (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres
0 - Allow women into our army with no expectations on troop count because valkyries:
2 - Don't allow women into army (For keeping long term society viable): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
0 - Don't allow mundane women into army but continue to let them be magical forces:
5(4) - No orders this turn, let culture take it's natural course: Voidslayer, Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist(except allowing widows to join as mundane troops), Andrea, helmacon
3 - Let widows join as mundane troops for revenge: RAM, FallacyofUrist, Andres
1 - Bjorn; Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES send him into the thick, even with a Protector.
1 - Bjorn; Make sure he learns to use an AS-R1.
1 - Bjorn; Issue no special orders regarding Bjorn: Andres
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 05, 2017, 12:35:32 am
Quote
BJORN
5 - Plains: RAM, Chiefwaffles, Helmacon, Andres, voidslayer, FallacyofUrist
MYARK
4 - Desert: Andrea, Chiefwaffles, helmacon, VoidSlayer
2 - Plains: Andres, FallacyofUrist
ORDERS
3 - If Moskurg heir is captured, turn her into an Arstotzkan (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres, RAM, FallacyofUrist
Addendum - 2 - Introduce her to catgirl culture: FallacyofUrist, RAM
Addendum - 1 - Retrocon a catgirl culture, complete with ancient epic poems of glorious bloodshed and fishnet-bags filled with human heads: RAM
1 - Allow women into our army to double our troop count (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7500689#msg7500689): Andres
0 - Allow women into our army with no expectations on troop count because valkyries:
2 - Don't allow women into army (For keeping long term society viable): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
0 - Don't allow mundane women into army but continue to let them be magical forces:
5 (4 against widows order) - No orders this turn, let culture take it's natural course: Voidslayer, Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist(except allowing widows to join as mundane troops), Andrea, helmacon
3 - Let widows join as mundane troops for revenge: RAM, FallacyofUrist, Andres
0 - Bjorn; Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES send him into the thick, even with a Protector.
0 - Bjorn; Make sure he learns to use an AS-R1.
1 - Bjorn; Issue no special orders regarding Bjorn: Andres
I re-fixed it. RAM re-added the "1" to the two Bjorn orders that no one is voting for, so I re-removed them. I also re-bolded the "no orders" order to make Evicted's life easier.
Post by: evictedSaint on July 05, 2017, 12:51:54 am
This year sees Moskurg spend their entire turn to refine their control over the storm even further with a new spell titled "Winds of Ruin". The spell essentially works by lending the intent of the casters to the storm itself, allowing the rain, snow, wind, tornados, and lightning to be focused and cast Beyond their Line of Sight. Most importantly, the spell allows the mages to focus on enemy shells flying through the air and attempt to blow them off course. This manages to blunt Arstotzka's artillery range by two levels...when the wizards casting can maintain focus long enough to use the spell to their advantage. Thankfully, unlike many of their first attempts at ambitious spells, Winds of Ruin doesn't kill their mages or drive them insane.
Arstotzka, on the other hand, doubles down on their crystal this year. Their first design is the "Protector", which is essentially a giant, lopsided crystal box on wagon wheels. Equipped with primitive transmission, guns with limited ammo, and a rather piss-poor mobility system, it's...kind of rubbish. The most important aspect of the design is the fact that it uses a new type of engine known as an "Internal Detonation Engine". With a smaller size and greater output than their earlier steam engine, it relies on a rather complicated circuit system and the magical input of a dedicated Apprentice. Just as important, the Protector opens the door to more advanced land-based vehicles, threatening to change the face of war once again. For their revision they upgrade their crystalworks to Crystalworks Mk2, which makes a bunch of their crystal stuff and circuitry cheaper.
The jungle sees Moskurg start to push further north.
The Winds of Ruin does its job...most of the time. Arstotzkan HA1 has its range reduced by two distance units; normally this would put Moskurgs more primitive ballistas in the lead, but Arstotzka's Crystalworks Mk2 managed to put their +ER shells to merely Cheap. Both Moskurg and Arstotzkan artillery is now at Extreme range, but the age of Moskurgs ballista systems is starting to show. Though their crews are more thoroughly trained, their shots rely heavily on wizards casting Lucky Shot to hit their targets. The wizards casting Winds of Ruin are lead by a single Leader who lends most of his will to the storm, but even he occasionally loses focus and Moskurgs own shots are blown off course. And when they DO hit, the shells have...disappointing effect, compared to the stupendous explosions of Arstotzkan shells. Though Arstotzka now has more HA1's, they can't field them to their full potential as they need three mages to a cannon and they have just as many cannons as mages. Nearly every available wizard is pulled to HA1 firing duty; ultimately, though they're firing at the same range, Arstotzka has more artillery cannons and they fire with a greater effect. On the bright side, the reduced range means Apprentices don't have to go on suicidal artillery-spotting sorties with flares any more.
The jungle doesn't really see the Protector being in use here, as the uneven ground and twisted/fallen trees are not conducive to the touchy wheels.
Arstotzkan HAC-1's are now Cheap, though they're strapped for wizards to man them full-time. Most of the time an HAC-1 is placed in each artillery nest, and when Moskurg carpet bombers fly over everyone stops what they're doing to shoot at them. Moskurg War Pegasi riders are now completely useless at carpet bombing, and with the short range on their Wands of Thunderbolts they must stand at afar and call down lightning from the storm. More powerful is their Airships, which with Arstotzka's blunted range can now once again safely stand at max range and chip and pick away at enemy lines with impunity. The decks are just large enough to carry a mage group to cast the complicated Winds of Ruin, which is then used to rampage tornados, lightning, and howling winds through enemy lines. Once again, the frequency of debris in the jungle makes the tornados very effective, and with mages continuously power them they don't lose power over time like a normal tornado.
Arstotzkan infantry still meets with Moskrugs from time-to-time, winning more often than not thanks to their improved armor, razor-sharp crystal axes, and gun-weilding commanders (who generally fire once before switching to their axes as the gun takes too long to reload).
Arstotzkan anti-mage hunters do a decent job at sniping unsuspecting commanders and mages, but with Moskurg off-loading more and more of their wizards to the air they're having less luck making a difference.
Ultimately, the fact that Moskurg's tornados are extra effective in the jungle and their air-forces tend to stand off and attack from a distance (meaning their untouchable) means they can whittle away at Arstotzkan forces all year long. The battle is close, and in a fair fight Arstotzka wins every time, but Moskurg manages to scrape out a narrow victory in the jungle.
Moskurg gains a section of Jungle this year.
The battle for the Desert is close.
The desert sands are not kind to the protector here either, though it sees some...limited success. On the rockier ground it does better, but the contraption is so heavy that the wheels tend to sink into the softer sand. The effect here is modest, but it does see some work as acting as a stationary pillbox at times. The cooling system must work overtime to keep the engine (and cabin) at a reasonable temperature, and even then things get...uncomfortable. The fact that the hull is made out of crystal with no obvious openings means its virtually invulnerable against Moskurg artillery, although concentrated firing is enough to engulf the vehicle in flames. This means the wheels break down and the occupants must flee to avoid suffocation - the fact that they're merely Expensive means they can be used in surprising numbers and that makes it difficult to shut them down...on firmer terrain.
Tornadoes can be cast from beyond Moskurgs line of sight, along with their lightning and winds. It takes its toll on Arstotzkan forces, though as long as they can continue pushing forward Moskurg must cede ground. Again, without much debris like tree branches the tornadoes are less effective unless they pass directly over the heavily armored troops - calvary is virtually untouchable, aside from lightning strikes.
As a matter of fact, Moskurgs naval superiority has a greater effect than their tornados here. Landing behind Arstotzkan lines does a decent job of throwing their lines in disarray, but Arstotzka still has superior infantry and armor-piercing guns so the surprise landings don't do as much as they could.
Relatively flat ground means Arstotzkan artillery still has the advantage, despite Winds of Ruin blunting range. Their troops are still better for the occasional brief melee, and no longer requiring water means their guns only fall silent when on the move. The fact that they can put an HAC-1 nearly everywhere means carpet bombers are a non-issue, though the Very Expensive Airships are once again untouchable at max range.
Moskurgs main saving grace is the fact that both Hayat and al-Mutriqahave taken to the desert, flying about and laying waste with their Wands of Thunderbolt and Wand of Heroism, respectively. They manage to just barely fight Arstotzka to a standstill, and for a long time it seems like the two sides are at a stalemate.
Coinflip = Arstotzka.
The tide of battle changes when Hayat, brave and reckless as always, flies too low on a strafing run against an Arstotzka artillery nest. A lucky Magehunter manages to get an anti-magic bomb arrow fired off in her direction, scoring a direct hit. The Queens Will shreds to pieces beneath her, and she herself takes a frightening amount of shrapnel. She plummets to the ground, and were it not for al-Mutriqascooping her off the sands and flying her out of the danger Moskurg may very well have lost their Heir. The tide of battle shifts dramatically after that, with Moskurg reluctantly giving up a section of ground. Arstotzkan soldiers wearily take another section of Moskurg sands.
Arstotzka gains another section of Desert. Moskurgs Apprentice is Wounded.
The plains is definitely where the Protector does its best, though its "best" is still lackluster.
The flat ground means it can move around unencumbered (unless it hits a pothole, which stands a decent chance of wrecking a wheel and stranding the vehicle). The thick crystal makes it virtually invulnerable against Moskurg ballista bolts, and the HAC-1 on the roof keeps War Pegasi riders from getting close enough to smother the thing in fire grenades. Only firestorm ballista shells stand a decent chance at defeating the device, by burning up the wheels and smoking out the occupants. Even then, unless the gunners are killed, the ruined machine can act as a limited pillbox with what small ammo supply the gunner has. Moskurg tactics generally involve waiting for a wheel to break or get shot off, and then rushing the giant crystal box and swarming the occupants.
The limited amount of occupants means it isn't as effective as a "no-mans land"-crossing device as hoped, but the ingenious men on the field have found a way to artificially increase the number of men it can carry. By putting the rear metal ramp on upside down so the hinge is on top and propping it open, it can act as a sort of mobile shield for a squad following close behind. This limits the speed slightly, and if the Protector breaks down everyone is stuck out in the field with no cover moving forward, but it does help.
Tornados and lightning do their job, though tornados do a poorer job here than in the jungle. Artillery is still in Arstotzka's favor. No one has naval advantage. Airships still pick and chip at enemy lines, thoughbeing Very Expensive limits how much they can do.
Bjorn and Myark fight on the plains this year. Bjorn is frustrated with the rather mundane job of working artillery, eagerly jumping on a nearby HAC-1 for a sudden air-raid. He succeeds in scoring two confirmed kills this year, though Myark worked himself ragged protecting the blood-thirsty young heir. His bravery on the battlefield will go a long way towards convincing others in the noble court of his legitimacy as heir to the kingdom.
Arstotzka manages to gain ground. It's not by a huge degree, but the battle does go solidly in their favor.
Arstotzka moves up another section and gains full control of Plains. If they hold it for a year, they may exploit it for resources. Bjorn fights unscathed.
The Winds of Ruin manages to make the Airships relevant on the seas, working full-force to sink every crystalclad ship they can find. For each ship they sink, two more pop up. The crystalclad beign Cheap means they can afford to keep pressing forward, despite their losses. The frequency of the ships means not every crystalclad can field more than one apprentice, but they don't need to. There's simply too many for the Airships to kill, and the Sirocco is virtually obsoleted at this point and not terribly relevant to the theatre. Despite their loses, Arstotzka continues sailing further south - though those loses aren't terribly pronounced, as Moskurg has a hard time penetrating the crystal shells at all.
Arstotzka gains a section of shoreline in both the Eastern and Western Seas.
Event!!!
A trader sails into your harbor this year on a very familiar boat...although instead of the familiar Chinese merchant you're used to, it's someone new. He says his name is Yuan Kang, and he demands that you sell your magical secrets to him. He refuses to say what happened to the former merchant, although you note that none of the crew seems to be the men who've visited you in the years past. His grasp on your language is faltering and broken, but he seems to be interested in magical weapons, and is willing to pay you an Expense Credit for three. This newcomer and his...mysterious nature makes many of the nobles nervous, and some suggest simply seizing his ship. He's likely a pirate after all, and probably stole the merchants ship. You technically wouldn't be stealing if you stole a stolen ship...right?
It is 943, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 943 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Behavior Rules. Please Read.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: evictedSaint on July 05, 2017, 12:53:06 am
I'll try to announced locked votes more frequently in the future to prevent that.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 05, 2017, 01:10:38 am
1.) Do we get the revision credit? We advanced in the Plains where we have Bjorn but you didn't mention the credit.
2.) Is the trader on a Fog-O-War? We gave the last trader a Fog-O-War and did not tell him how to make more. So we should be able to get a hint from seeing if this guy has the Fog-O-War. Considering "familiar ship", this is probably a yes.
3.) The design for the Protector says it transports a few men, but the design post for it says "that [it] can carry up to 8 soldiers uncomfortably." Out of curiousity, does this include the crew, and if so, what's the crew of the Protector again?
4.) How much of a factor was anti-magic here against the AS-R1 and Protector?
But other than that, great! We're so close to victory, I can almost taste it.
We should probably see about countering their counter. They're dangerously close to making our artillery useless. Anything would work here - either just directly making their counter useless or going around it.
The Protector can be made a lot more useful if we revise it some treads and a proper transmission. It'll make it a lot more faster and versatile.
Post by: Andres on July 05, 2017, 01:39:48 am
The AS-R2 is the weapon for the new age of magic and technology. The definitive weapon, to be eventually issued to every one of our soldiers. Soon, a day will come when the crystal axe is but an artifact of the past, reserved for the rare instance when Moskurgs manage to get into melee range.
The AS-R2's main improvement is the magazine. What was preventing the effective use of the AS-R1 in infantry combat was its rate of fire. Sure, breech-loading can make our cannons effective weapons, but it's not enough for the fast-paced nature of melees.
The AS-R2 was initially planned to utilise mechanical means of self-loading new bullets, but our Mathemagicians found this boring, "not cool enough", and still required loading of magazines of bullets.
So we did something new. A miniaturised fabricator scroll similar to the ones we have in the Crystalworks lies in the rifle. Fabricator circuits/scrolls radically grow in size with complexity, but a bullet is a relatively simple shape and our new Crystalworks fabricators from the Mk. 2 Crystalworks make this even easier.
The crystal fabricator, being circuit-based, is activated automatically by the firing circuits after the previous bullet leaves the chamber. Of course, recoil is still an issue and fabricating Crystal isn't completely instant, so the gun isn't fully automatic by any definition. We've slowed the fabrication process compared to the Crystalworks to allow for increased energy efficiency. Yet its rate of fire is much faster than anything we've ever made before.
The Crystal bullet is tweaked to be made out of slightly heavier durable crystal. The tweaks here are of course minor. They're not in any shape or form able to be applied elsewhere, but are just enough to allow the crystal bullets to be on par with their more regular counterparts.
The gun can be powered via two methods:
1.) Direct operation by a mage is easy and very viable, as mages can fire the weapon without stopping to reload.
2.) Operation by a mundane user is slightly different. The AS-R2 is powered by AA Magegems attached to sockets located on the bottom of the barrel, with circuits which connect them to the fabrication and detonation parts of the gun. It is not required for all of them to be have magegems in them. The SPSF-C powering the AS-R1 still left some energy in the AA Magegem, just not enough to be useful. We can use this to power the crystal fabrication.
The barrel of the gun takes advantage of the Crystalworks Mk. 2 to be much more exact in its construction and rifling, ensuring great accuracy increases. We're aiming for the AS-R2 to remain accurate up to Extreme range (which is its max range), but remaining accurate to Long range would also be acceptable.
Finally, a scope is placed on the top of the gun using modified Crystal Glass (again taking advantage of the more precise and easier-to-use processes of the Mk. 2 Crystalworks!) that magnifies whatever's behind the glass. This "Optical Crystal" can be used to allow the user to see and aim the gun precisely at Extreme ranges. The Scope can be attached and detached as necessary.
The Crystalworks Mk. 2 should allow for the Rifle to be Cheap in construction. Though mundane users are bottlenecked by the Magegem cost, the actual rifle itself should be Cheap thanks to the new Crystalworks being able to more effectively fabricate complex shapes and whatnot.
If we have time left in the project, we wish to use the enhanced nature of the Crystalworks to implement magic-insulating crystal into the design, protecting the circuits from anti-magic and allowing the rifle to operate in anti-magic fields.
The result shall be amazing. A rifle that doesn't require loading of bullets! For our mages, this shall be a devastating weapon, allowing them to continuously fire without reload. The fact that every mage will be getting one should even assuage our mages' (and Bjorn's) dislike of being human batteries! With this weapon, our mages shall be able to become devastating weapons of war.
Even our mundane infantry shall benefit. The AS-R2 completely obsoletes the longbow by being accurate, deadlier, and quicker-firing. Even if they swap out a magegem every firing, their rate of fire shall experience drastic improvements compared to the much harder bullet breech-loading and Magegem loading every single firing in the AS-R1.
Snipers shall rejoice as they can accurately snipe enemy officers from safety. As they can easily spot and acquire new targets then accurately and quickly dispatch them.
Artillery operators and
TL;DR: A new rifle. The main improvement is the loading. Instead of being boring and just implementing self-loading, we give the AS-R2 a crystal fabricator like the Crystalworks. It fabricates new crystal bullets on the fly. This lets our mages fire without reloading, and means our mundane troops only have to load Magegems. Accuracy improvements mean it should at least have an Effective Range of Long, if not Extreme. It should be Cheap for wizards and as soon as we upgrade Magegems/get Aethergems, it should also become Cheap for mundanes as well. The scope makes it much better for sniping. It also serves as a better spotting tool. Anti-magic resistance is frankly unlikely, and should be done first in revisions if we don't get it.
A devastating weapon to bring about a new age of warfare!
Bullet Fabrication - We make a scroll fabricating (machine) crystal bullets that're as effectively tough+heavy as regular bullets (should be easy given size). Should actually be relatively easy given the Crystalworks Mk. 2 and the simple structure of bullets. Fabrication is done automatically because it's a circuit and we already have a circuit controlling firing, but the gun isn't automatic because 1.) Recoil and 2.) fabrication isn't completely instant (we intentionally nerf fabrication time to increase energy efficiency). Should massively increase rate of fire. Especially for mages. See Power Requirements for more details.
Accuracy - Take advantage of the Crystalworks Mk. 2's more precise fabrication abilities to make more consistent and precise rifling+barrels, increasing accuracy. The rifle's max range is already Extreme, but the AS-R1 is accurate only up to Medium. We aim to increase accuracy to at least Long if not Extreme. Shouldn't be hard because it's basically just getting a fairly-reasonable benefit from the Crystalworks Mk. 2. It can make more complicated structures easily, so just apply that here.
Scope - Modify Crystal Glass (using our extreme knowledge in modifying Crystal + the Crystalworks Mk. 2) to magnify distant targets. Put a scope made out of the stuff on the rifle, and allow it to be taken on/put back on in the field.
Power Requirements/Loading - A wizard can operate it for as long as they want, being free of bullet requirements. Mundanes use AA Magegems that fit into sockets located onto the bottom of the barrel. Fluff why: The SPSF-C doesn't completely drain an AA Magegem, so we can use the extra energy to power bullet fabrication. The magegem reloading is still much faster than loading a new Magegem and bullet in the AS-R1 and only has to be done per 2 firings, making the RoF really fast compared to anything else.
Anti-magic Resistance - Low priority. Use the Crystalworks Mk. 2's ability to create more advanced structures to make magic-insulating crystal (based off of resistive crystal) so we can make the AS-R2 immune to anti-magic.
Expense - The Crystalworks Mk. 2 bonus never applied to the AS-R1 even though it applied to the AS-HAC-1 (I may bring this up with evicted directly). So expense-wise, we're basically using a "resource expense credit" here like we did with the Mountains metal bonus and the first Crystalworks bonus when revising our old stuff into crystal construction. So making the rifle Cheap should be extremely easy. Of course for mundane users they're still bottlenecked by Expensive AA magegems.
Quote
1 - AS-R2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502955#msg7502955): Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 05, 2017, 01:43:25 am
Quote
2 - AS-R2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502955#msg7502955): Andres, Chiefwaffles
1 - Name it "AS-R2 Service Rifle": Chiefwaffles
1 - Name it "AS-R2": Andres
Also, did you make any changes other than the name?
Post by: Andres on July 05, 2017, 01:55:53 am
Also, did you make any changes other than the name?-I removed much of the mentions of it being "easy". Such mentions don't seem to make any of our designs any easier to design and they end up being an eyesore after seeing them pop up so much.
-I took out the crystal slots to allow for external power generation, on the basis that it's already fairly ambitious and it would be good to cut down on some of the designs. Even a moderate-ambition design ((no penalties or bonuses)) will end up having problems so it's better to be conservative considering how much overall importance comes with this design. Necessary stuff only.
-It's no longer 2 AA magegems on the bottom. It now has sockets available along the length of the bottom of the barrel which you can stick magegems in. Not any more complex than the previous idea and gives the gun a bit more flexibility.
-Removed mentions of the Protector in case that increases complexity.
-Just going for Long-Extreme range for the scope rather than potentially BLOS(+1). I want to keep ambition down.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 05, 2017, 02:07:13 am
Quote
1 - AS-R2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502955#msg7502955): Andres
1.) The "easy" stuff is, in my eyes, necessary. It's to reason why this design is possible and why we shouldn't get penalties for it. To remove it for it being an "eyesore" is frankly just stupid. You say it doesn't make our designs easier to design, but you literally do not know that.
2.) Allowing for external power generation is not ambitious at all. Again, taking this out is stupid. How is it ambitious? Crystal wiring is something we have lots of experience with. This isn't really even a new thing. It's like you just want us to have to spend a revision to get this design working in the future. It adds no complexity to the design and has future benefits.
3.) The scope change makes no sense. We can already see up to Long-Extreme range. The scope should allow us to be precise up to Extreme range while allowing one to see up to BLOS(+1) range, though aiming the rifle at those ranges is impractical even if it could fire that far. This is to allow it to be useful for artillery spotting.
Again, no sense. Literally. In terms of reality and physics, no sense.
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 05, 2017, 02:19:53 am
What is magic? Where does it come from? Why can we control it? What does it want?
Every thing I bring into the world brings me closer to something, hidden in the dark down here, in the depths we pull "crystal" and "fire" and "life" and "wasps" from. Every layer brings more questions and less understanding, every word and formula rising up like a great wall to block passage, a wall with teeth.
I hope these notes on the few theories I could work out make it to you, as I need to keep going, I need to find out the truth.
The Mind of Madness
A malignant incorporeal supernatural intelligence is summoned to the battlefield to assault those foolish enough to project their minds outwards. Any attempt to control or perceive at a distance with magic and the mind will result in an assault on the senses sure to drive the wizard mad.
Demondium
A composite supernatural steel using standard steel alloying components like carbon, copper, nickle, bones extracted from the living, the blood of the innocent and so forth. When the forging process is completed and the final spell intoned the steel becomes covered in a sickly black and grey tone, with orange and red veins running along it like a living thing. It feels slightly warm to the touch and seems to shift in an unsettling manner as the eye looks at it. The material is dense, harder then any material we have and has significant resistance to heat, lightning and almost any magic directly touching it.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 05, 2017, 03:12:37 am
The Protector is a reasonable idea. But it was a stepping stone, ultimately. Serving to further our knowledge of mechanics and transmissions and whatnot. It's from our experience with the Protector that we can fully implement the Titan. The next weapon of our ages.
The Titan is a massive behemoth. It's best described as a landship, though even that term misses many details. The Titan has 3 internal decks in addition to its external deck on top. Crystal Glass windows dot the structure, allowing people to easily look out and view their surroundings. Layering of Resistive and non-resistive Crystal, made easily possible via the Crystalworks Mk. 2, makes the entire ship practically invulnerable to lightning. On the bottom deck, extensive use of ramps allow for quick deployment of infantry from within the Titan.
AAA Magegems line the halls, each one charged to provide fire-less lighting for the halls. A blue glow fills the Titan, accentuating the crystal further. If needed due to passive draining, then the magegems are connected to the Titan's capacitor to always be on. Of course, they present a very minor energy drain.
A small "tower" on the top deck has stairs leading up to a level at the top, where the walls are nearly entirely Crystal Glass. Here, there are control panels filled with many AAA Magegems, each with their own label, that light up based on the corresponding statuses of the Titan. Things as mundane as the status of the left tread's 4th wheel, or the total charge level of the Titan's capacitor, and much much more. There are even some capacitive AAA Magegems that allow for limited control over the ship, like over its lighting, an emergency engine shutdown, and more!
Here, the Bridge, is also the location of the Titan's pilot. At first, we considered using complicated gears to allow manual control over the engine and transmission from all the way up in the bridge, but ultimately we went with circuitry linking the pilot's control panel and the engine. Capacitive AAA Magegems here allow for control over the improved transmission, engine, and general maneuvering of the Titan.
Deep inside the Titan lies the Capacitor, a massive array of connected A-size Magegems. This Capacitor is connected to the rest of the ship via crystal wiring inside the walls (or just the walls themselves). All power-consuming technology is hooked up to the Capacitor. While we may not be able to easily power everything we have with Magegems, we'll definitely try. The Capacitor is designed to be easily swapped out with new energy tech (Aethergems) as it's introduced.
An Atmospheric Control System is in place in the ship - enchantment-style circuits alongside the walls that cool the air to a reasonable (Celsius) temperature and keep the air fit for breathing even when the ship is sealed off from fresh air.
This allows the Titan to go without external air supplies, and when all external hatches are closed, the Titan can even spend indefinite periods of time (with supplies) fairly deep underwater!
Living quarters are in place to allow for long-term habitation on the Titan. The Titan is designed to be a mobile headquarters. Something to obsolete camps. Wherever the Titan is, our soldiers will live and base there, not relying on flimsy raidable hard-to-move camps and tents outside.
The Titan can carry massive amounts of passengers on board, making it a great tool for transport and deployment of troops. Smash through enemy lines guns blazing, deploy troops through the bottom deck ramps, and support with gunfire. In fact, the Titan even has garage bays to deploy Protectors from. Though these Protectors are mostly for longer-term scouting missions and smaller-scale assaults and not many are on board.
For weapons, the Titan has a battery of HA1s on a raised platform on the top deck. Numerous cheap HA1s can barrage close and far away enemies via indirect fire! The platform can be lowered into the hull and a bay door sealing the battery is possible for when the Titan is underwater or under heavy assault.
Portholes dot every side of the Titan. Crystal hatches can be opened for crew to man point-defense AS-HAC-1s to eliminate infantry right next to the Titan and carpets. Multiple AS-HAC-1s are on the top deck as well, of course. Hatches primarily on the front of the titan can be opened to reveal small amounts of HC1-Es. The sides have only a handful of HC1-Es and the front has the most, though that's not a lot. The HC1-Es don't need to be in that large of a quantity since the HA1s largely do the sieging and the AS-HAC-1s largely do the anti-infantry.
Building off our failures from the Protector, we've developed a new system of locomotion for the Titan - the Arstotzkan Treads. These treads are actually based off of an earlier design of the AS-STV-1 Restless when the Academy apprentice misinterpreted the words "tracks" somehow. The treads are created via the linking of many smaller crystal plates making up a kind of loop. This "loop" goes around the actual wheels of the Titan, which are made out of crystal as well, but with spokes that will move the treads. The wheels move the treads, moving the Titan.
While working on these treads, we've taken the opportunity to build off of the Protector's failures again. The transmission has been improved, with circuits working in conjunction with gears to allow for a much more durable system that loses little to no power between the Titan's engines and its treads. If possible, we'd love to incorporate a smaller version of the treads and transmission to the Protector, but doing that is very low in priority.
The transmission combined with the treads allows the Titan to brave any terrain. The treads will simply go over any obstacle and can't just break after hitting any obstacle. The best part is that the crystal's regenerative properties allow the treads to regenerate as they go! The power of the treads combined with the crystal hull of the Titan means it can simply knock over, run straight through, or simple go over any obstacles such as trees or rocks.
For engines, the Titan uses arrays of Internal Detonation Engines all working in harmony to power the treads. Considering that these engines are only Expensive, our only constraint here should be space. We aim to give the Titan a speed at least beating an unencumbered man walking at a brisk pace, but it should be possible to make it faster.
The Titan is an answer to Moskurg. If they want to make close-quarters combat a thing again, they can do so. We'll be ready. The Titan is equipped for close assaults where it can protect itself and nearby forces as hordes of infantry crawl out. Our infantry and forces can live on the Titan as it still moves. Our generals and officers can plan using the Titan as a mobile HQ while it moves. It can go underwater for stealth and easy traversal of the lands. It can go on any terrain (maybe not the Mountains), ignoring obstacles in its path. Truly a devastating weapon.
TL;DR: Imagine if you made a large ship, gave it treads, made it a mobile HQ, added magic, and put it on land.
Structure & Size - 3 internal decks and the top deck. Massive in size in every way. Thick Crystal armor makes it able to shrug off literally any Moskurger weapon and tornado debris. Layered resistive crystal makes it invulnerable to lightning strikes. Lots of Crystal Glass windows, of course. Multiple ramps on bottom deck for quick infantry deployment.
Treads & Transmission - Caterpillar treads are implemented, made with crystal wheels and crystal treads (exploiting crystal regeneration + strength). Transmission is improved to take full advantage of engine power. All based off of failures from the Protector.
Capacitor - A room inside the Titan filled with as many A-size Magegems as we can fit without making this component become a National Expense in cost. Connected to the rest of the ship by crystal wiring (or just sending the magical current through the walls if necessary/possible).
Magegem Lighting - Charged AAA Magegems line the halls and rooms to provide magical lighting instead of fire-based lighting. If needed, these can be pretty easily wired to the Titan's capacitor via crystal wiring.
Engines - The engine rooms boast arrays of Internal Detonation Engines all working in parallel to power the titan. As many as we can fit without making this component NE or before running out of room. Should be easy to have enough IDEs to make the Titan pretty fast, considering IDEs are expensive and are fairly powerful.
Bridge - A small 1-floor tower on the top deck connected to the inside of the Titan and top deck by stairs. Crystal Glass makes up nearly the entire top floor of the bridge to allow for maximum visibility.
Control Panels & Piloting - The Control Panels use AAA Magegems that are charged and discharged to show the status of various things on the Titan, like the status of parts, lighting, the engine, and more. Capacitive AAA Magegems allow for control over circuit-related operations of the Titan remotely. The pilot of the Titan remotely controls the engine, transmission, and other mechanical stuff via remote manipulation of the engine and whatnot via these capacitive magegems nad circuits.
Atmospheric Control System - Implement scaled-up cooling from the Protector (no power - enchantment) and upgrade it to include air recycling (also enchantment style). Seal the Titan to air. The strength of Crystal combined with this should allow the Titan to go fairly deep underwater, provided all hatches and whatnot are closed securely.
Weapons - HA1 battery on the top filled with numerous cheap HA1s configured for indirect fire. Platform with the HA1s can be lowered into the hull and have a bay door close over it, sealing and protecting them from harm if necessary. Portholes (with hatches of course) on all sides of the ships accessible from the inner decks are equipped with cheap AS-HAC-1s for point defense. Numerous AS-HAC-1s on top deck for anti-air. Ship-of-the-line-style configuration for HC1-Es exists mostly on front and a bit on left/right to allow for up-close siege potential.
Living Quarters - Include long-term living arrangements, like a ship, for its crew and a large number of passengers. Wherever the Titan is, we shouldn't need a camp when our soldiers can live and base from here.
Transport Potential - Lots of space for extra soldiers and their equipment, so our infantry can use the Titan as a large-scale transport and deployment vehicle. Multiple ramps are present on the bottom deck to allow for quick infantry deployment as well.
Protector Garages - Has space for a handful of Protectors to deploy from the Titan. Mostly used for side-missions, smaller assaults, scouting, etc.
Difficulty - It's probably pretty hard, but not impossible. Honestly, just look at it yourself.
Expense - Very Expensive is the optimistic goal here. The Crystalworks Mk. 2 is fitted for complicated large-scale structures. Crystal is Super Cheap. All the weapons are Cheap. The engines are Expensive. The Capacitor is Very Expensive. National Effort would be okay, but given the expense of the components, Very Expensive is surprisingly reasonable.
Suure, it's ambitious, but we (probably) have two revisions and are close to winning. Let's do something fun!
Quote
1 - AS-R2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502955#msg7502955): Andres
1 - AS-LFV-2 "Titan" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502996#msg7502996): Chiefwaffles
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 05, 2017, 03:20:25 am
Let's be reasonable and research the steel created with the souls of the damned.
Just to be clear, my suggestions were serious. My other idea was a tree that could absorb lightning and ballistic strikes but the success of the protector and the new storm power they have kinda killed it.
Other idea, summon burrowing giant scorpions.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 05, 2017, 03:21:55 am
Post by: RAM on July 05, 2017, 03:44:47 am
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Double-down on artillery: "Weightite"
The enemy has made it clear that the skies are against us, and we will stand firm and show them that the ground is mightier by far. We need to pierce through their defences. It is clear that they must be straining the limits of what air can do, so we must produce a weapon that can defeat the winds. This weapon must be forceful and yet small, to maximise its momentum and minimise the wind's purchase upon it. Additionally, it must be supplied in large quantities, and further, with our mastery of conjuring, we ought be able to summon it directly into our weapons. The solution to the small size and great force is weight. The solution to summoning it rapidly enough to act as ammunition, is simplicity. Crystals are too complex to be summoned at such a rate and too stable to be pushed to the extreme weight that we require.
So it is that we introduce the "Summoning Cap". This platform is derived from the design of the crystalworks. It is a structured platform dedicated to our new Weightite material, purpose-built as a single circuit to rapidly produce bullets directly within the chamber of our largest artillery. Given the great weight of the bullets, the majority of the inner-workings have been reduced in size, allowing more armour around the detonation chamber allowing a more powerful explosion to propel a heavier bullet.
The specifications for this material are:
: primarily the ability to summon it rapidly enough to, at most, half our rate of fire, though an increase in rate of fire due to the lack of reloading is hoped for. Given the simplicity of the material's "just make it heavy" nature, it should be viable.
: Secondarily we hope for weight. We aim for ten times the mass of lead and will perform preliminary considerations according to this. If we can make something even heavier, then so much the better. If it fails to meet this goal, then it should meet design requirements even if it is only two or three times the weight of lead.
: Our third priority is for it to share the crystalworks' immunity to antimagic. Basing it off of the same technology should facilitate this. They are, after all, both material conjuration effects.
: As an addendum, it must perform as ammunition. Liquids or goo would, most likely, be ineffective, but test-fire them first to be sure...
While the material's other properties are unspecified, we would expect for it to be extremely resistant to all effects, and thus might see future use as armour.
Additionally, it ought to be possible to dump bullets in the bottom of ships, to add more ballast if they become unstable.
Celestedemorte
A larger, stronger, more powerful frost tower that effects a pillar of air rather than a disk of air. This creates a massive version of the convection effect that we have been constantly observing around our firewalls and steam engines and fireballs and fire wasps and every single tiny little thing that we do with all this fire in cold climes. This creates a massive Massive MASSIVE wind force as untold millions of tonnes of air are compelled to move down as quickly as they are able, and with al their friends doing the same thing, that is very quickly indeed. This will, in short, rip their storm coulds out of the heavens, and all the pathetic insects shall plummet from the air with them. And, as fortune would have it, it seems that as the water grows colder, the number of storm clouds is reduced.
Enduring this insane force is no small feat. The worked-crystal tower's walls are ten centimetres thick and must be transported in great panels by rails and cavalry teams before being assembled by leaning them against each other and bound together with rapidly grown vines. A great steel pole, 3 centimetres in diameter and running along one corner of the pyramidal structure and sunk into the ground renders the tower and its surrounds immune to lightning as we have learned that lightning loves metal. Finally, there is a 1-centimetre thinck shell around the structure of summoned crystal, that can easily be renewed. Within, the traditional elements of the tower of forever frost have been combined with circuitry to create a massive multistorey circuit to better unify the magic, inhibiting magical seepage and wastage resulting in a much more efficient tower and magems are included to make its operation more consistent. Access is granted by a ladder through a hole in the centre of the crystal foundation slab and requires that a tunnel be huge which benefits from crystal supports.
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Living magic
We create a spell that expresses a will of its own and can subsist indefinitely from ambient or otherworldly energies and perform some form of two-way communication. This would have no immediate benefits, but the potential applications would be impressive. We would derive this spell form our existing wasp spell which does much the same, but in a more mundane form.
Post by: helmacon on July 05, 2017, 06:11:08 am
Post by: evictedSaint on July 05, 2017, 10:12:42 am
1 yes
2 no
3 no, and three
4 not much. Protector usually broke down around Long Range, so it's moot point.
Post by: andrea on July 05, 2017, 12:13:23 pm
Quote
1 - AS-R2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502955#msg7502955): Andres
2 - AS-LFV-2 "Titan" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502996#msg7502996): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
We can afford to do it.
we can fix it, and no price will make it not useful.
Plus, we can later outfit it with things like a portable crystalwork and a dogwood farm, making it a self contained habitat, a great achievement!
Post by: helmacon on July 05, 2017, 01:45:25 pm
The protector was a suitable first step into land vehicles, but the many problems encountered in the field have given us experience with the unique challenges of this new type of design.
The Manticore is the next generation of land vehicle. Built from an enlarged protector frame, it utilizes a system of treads for more reliable mobility. It has a refined transmission system, and a hatch in the bottom for easy access during repairs.
The space inside that was previously used for passengers is instead used to house a single HA1 replacing the HC1-E. The HAC-1 is still mounted beside it, accessible from a hatch. The crew consists of three apprentices to operate the main cannon, and a driver.
The manticore includes the atmospheric system that the protector was intended to have. It uses a few circuits to continuously summon fresh air near the top of the cabin, with a few micro vents around the bottom hatch to let CO2 drain out. This is ultimately very low priority on the vehicle. It utilises an internal layer of the insulating Crystal we have recently developed for unparalleled protection from lightning, with traditional Crystal armor on the outside in generous amounts.
A stripped down version is available as well, dropping the HA1 armament to act as what is essentially a much more functional protector. This version is dubbed the AS-ALV-2 "T", and aims to carry at least 10 soldiers. Given the extra space as it will not have a main gun or ammo stored, nor a crew for the gun, this should be more than possible.
So, why choose the Manticore?
The Manticore makes our artillery mobile and heavily armored. If their airships are sitting out of range, we can drive up until we can hit them. Our battle lines become highly flexible. If they deploy behind our lines, we can just move our assets out of the way. It can also perform outside of the artillery role, simply acting as an armoured fighting vehicle.
The main reason though?
It is dead simple easy. We already make protectors and HA1s, this is just putting the two together. It is essentially a protector revision, with a big gun variant. As simple as it is, it can straight up revolutionise our military! APCs that actually function as APCs! And fricken tanks! It preempts an armored vehicle by the enemy, which is likely considering they had no good method of killing the protector last turn, and gives us a better method of pushing into highly fortified positions. (which will likely become more common as we enter the kegger heartlands.)
The titan will be NE for sure, which isn't terrible considering what it is, but the advantage of the Manticore is that it fixes our APCs at the same time, meaning we can use the revisions for other things. It's also a lot lower risk (a bad roll with the titan will get us nill) and has a cooler name.
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 05, 2017, 02:02:47 pm
The enemy literally waits for one to break down on it's own before moving in for the kill.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 05, 2017, 02:08:58 pm
AS-LFV-2-A
Land Fighting Vehicle 2 - Artillery.
And name the APC variant:
AS-LFV-2-T (or P)
With the T being for Transport (or P for personnel)
The APC variant should also have more personnel capability than the Protector as it doesn't use the HC1-E and require ammo storage. At least 10 people would be great. But since it's bigger maybe we can fit in even more?
The AS-HAC-1 should be big enough to facilitate combat armor and maybe have a limited crystal glass shield for some cover.
And you should probably include a sentence briefly describing the function of the atmosphere control system.
And just out of curiosity, do you think we could fit in crystal shell fabrication for the HA1? Would help in the future a lot and eliminate the need for large weighty amkunition. Probably not a reasonable thought, but it sure would be great if it was possible.
But other than that, I really like the manticore. Definitely seems like a viable alternative to the Titan.
@Void: Both vehicle designs address that though?
Post by: helmacon on July 05, 2017, 02:10:12 pm
Post by: helmacon on July 05, 2017, 02:32:20 pm
I'll tweak the description when I get back to WiFi. (I'm stuck on my phone right now.)
The AMA stood for "Armoured Mobile Artillery", but since it has an APC version I guess a more general name us in order.
I'll put in a few sentences about the APC variants carrying capacity, and the atmospheric control system too.
Automated Crystal shell fabrication would be completely unnecessary. The HA1 it's already crewed by wizards, who would be more than capable of summoning Crystal shells by hand if the need arose, but most of the ammo storage is for explosive or range shells that contain advanced components that can't be summoned on the fly. Shell fabrication is useful for rifles (or anything that is used be mundane troops), but our wizards don't need a machine to cast their spells for them.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 05, 2017, 02:43:36 pm
Our wizards can't summon ammo themselves. They need the shapes first and manually summoned crystal will get dispelled. We would have to include crystal fabricators in the design for anyone to use crysta ammunition fabrication.
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 05, 2017, 03:03:26 pm
Post by: andrea on July 05, 2017, 03:05:32 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 05, 2017, 03:11:07 pm
Our guns are still breech-loading. Between every single shot someone needs to open the hatch, load in a new shell all the way, then secure the hatch before aiming. This is regardless of whether the operators are mundanes or mages.
A crystal fabricator is essentially an easy, simple, self-loading system. Reloading at all is no longer an issue. Mages can fire without ever running out of ammunition or stopping to reload. Mundane men will be able to fire at much faster speeds as they only have to load a new Magegem, not a new shell, between shots.
A cannon will be able to fire forever as long as it has operators. Unending artillery barrages. Our tanks will be able to fire as much as they wish without ever worrying about ammo, at faster speeds than ever dreamed of.
And we're not replacing he infantry transport with shells. We're replacing it with a HA1. Which is big. With much bigger shells than a HC-E. Shell supply is still a problem. And even if we can fit a 10 shells (we won't), our tanks will still become useless as soon as they run out of shells.
A shell fabricator is fabricating the shell inside the barrel, eliminating the need for reloading.
And this would be great for future stuff, allowing us to invest in other things with the AS-R2, more flexibility with weapon locations in the Titan, the ability to remotely control weapons, and more.
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 05, 2017, 03:14:14 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 05, 2017, 03:29:42 pm
We need a whole factory (one factory now) to make all of our Crystal designs.
We do not need Wizards to operate one at all. Heard of Magegems? That thing we developed specifically so we could use magitech without wizards? And Aethergems, the planned design to allow self-charging designs?
Design: Crystalworks [6, 5-2, 4]
...
Our apprentices have been reduced to little more than glorified powersources, charging arrays of magegems that in turn power gold-etched circuits strung together with thick crystal power conduits. These circuits in turn produce a pre-inscribed crystal design written into the circuitry. These circuits are interchangeable, able to be slotted in and out of the assembly line as needed.
The Crystalworks is a massive collection of these fabricator circuits. Note that since the Crystalworks was made, we have made significant advances in crystal, circuitry, and the Crystalworks itself.
We take one of these fabricator circuits, which can be pretty small individually (as long as the shape isn't too complicated. And even then, the Mk. 2 CW makes that easier). We stick them in/by the barrel of a cannon, and link it so it goes after the blastball fires.
We already have individual fabricator circuits. The aspect including putting them in the cannon is just "stick a fabricator circuit inside and maybe make it a little faster."
I don't even necessarily think this is the best idea to do right now as part of the Manticore, but I'm annoyed by the misinformation.
(Edit)
But anyways. I have an alternative plan:
We're short on apprentices right now. Our future designs are going to be more and more reliant on magic to work. We need to fix this now, because every new magitech design is going to directly take apprentices away from artillery. Every vehicle proposed so far is going to take more paprentices away from artillery and other places where they'd also be useful.
While you could argue that they're more useful when we have some apprentices in Manticores/Titans/Whatever instead of all of them in HA1s, we can't even crew all our HA1s right now. We don't have to compromise.
Design: Aethergem
Bjorn broke ground with his thesis regarding Aethergems. Sure, we didn't ultimately have a working prototype and maybe the hamster was slightly unnecessary, but the principle stands. Bjorn is on the cusp of something amazing.
The Aethergem is ultimately a variation of the Magegem. It mimics the connection a human mage has with the Aether, something we've studied for decades. It's thanks to Bjorn's thesis that we can reasonably create a proper version.
Scroll circuitry embedded into the Aethergem allows it to use its energy to create an artificial link to the Aether. Once this link is created, magical energy flows freely into the Aethergem, filling it. The Aethergem can store this power itself and distribute it to power consumers or other Magegems via crystal wiring.
The Aethergem is in a way a variation of the Magegem, and thus comes in three sizes and expense levels - the A, AA, and AAA, in order from most power to least. Larger Aethergems naturally recharge faster, but every Aethergem will take the same amount of time to go from 0% charge to 100% charge when taking the increased capacities into account.
The A-size Aethergem is aimed to have near if not the same charge capacity as the A-size Magegem, and will be the fastest recharging with the target expense of Very Expensive and be the same size as the A-size Magegem. The AA Aethergem will be roughly the same size and capacity as the AA Magegem at Expensive, and so on for the AAA Aethergem.
The charge capacity of the Aethergems is the least important aspect. If we must sacrifice a component of Magegems to ensure proper expense, then we can sacrifice the charge capacity for the charge rate and expense.
A near-critical aspect of this design is to incorporate the Aethergem into as many designs if possible. Of particular importance is the HA1 - we wish to fit Aethergems into the HA1 to allow for it to be operated by less, if any, apprentices. The Aethergems' charging rate will allow the HA1 to charge itself between shots, lessening or eliminating its reliance on external power sources (apprentices) to charge it.
In the Crystalclad, we hope to fit it with Aethergems allowing it to rely on less apprentices for operations. The Protector should have Aethergems fitted to decrease its reliance on apprentices for both its operation and its weaponry. The AS-R1, if possible, should have a permanent Aethergem core passively charging it as quickly as possible.
TL;DR: Make the Aethergem - a naturally self-charging Magegem - and fit it into as many things as possible, with high priority on the HA1. Expense should be made somewhat easier thanks to the Crystalworks Mk. 2 and the fact that we make Magegems out of Crystal Glass now. There are three sizes of Aethergems at the same expense+size+rough energy capacities as their respective Magegems, larger Aethergems charge faster but every size of Aethergem takes the same amount of time to go from 0% to 100%. While maintaining expense shouldn't be hard for aforementioned reasons, charge capacity should be the first thing to be sacrificed if necessary.
The two revisions can be anti-magic resistance and treads/transmission/suspension/whatever to the Protector, making it actually useful. From there, we can just throw on a HA1 in another revision if we want the Manticore.
The Aethergem will be great in the future, and we can use our two revisions here to still make progress elsewhere this turn so we don't "waste" it on a theoretical design.
EDIT: Added detail on three Aethergem sizes.
Quote
1 - AS-R2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502955#msg7502955): Andres
2 - AS-LFV-2 "Titan" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502996#msg7502996): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
0 - Manticore (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503319#msg7503319):
1 - Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503415#msg7503415): Chiefwaffles
Post by: Kadzar on July 05, 2017, 04:21:47 pm
Quote
1 - AS-R2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502955#msg7502955): Andres
2 - AS-LFV-2 "Titan" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502996#msg7502996): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
0 - Manticore (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503319#msg7503319):
2 - Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503415#msg7503415): Chiefwaffles, Kadzar
Also, the "Manticore" designation made me think that we really need to come up with proper nicknames, or at least full descriptive names, for our various weapons and such. Whenever I see a write-up I get confused about what sort of gun is being used in each case.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 05, 2017, 04:33:43 pm
Time to do something different.
Quote
1 - AS-R2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502955#msg7502955): Andres
2 - AS-LFV-2 "Titan" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502996#msg7502996): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
0 - Manticore (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503319#msg7503319):
2 - Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503415#msg7503415): Chiefwaffles, Kadzar
2 - Mind of Madness: VoidSlayer, FallacyofUrist
Trader:
1 - Just give him Crystal Lances, Crystal Axes, and one of our many squad-destroying Wands of Fireball, if he can learn to use it.
Post by: RAM on July 05, 2017, 05:03:32 pm
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RAM-MAP-943 "Pashmad" Mobile Artillery Position
The protector demonstrated clearly that a slow vehicle is as bad as no vehicle. We need to close range with the enemy and they are too mobile for half-measures to work. We need something aggressive, fast, and dangerous. Fortunately, our crystals are light, with some ingenuity, we can maintain significant armour while massively improving performance.
The first and most obvious issue is weight. Things keep breaking. We revise the armour to contain complex structures. It ends up being formed of innumerable little pyramids, inspired by hawk eggs, that lose strength per volume, but are much stronger for the same weight, and hopefully regeneration rate. While we actually reduce the thickness, and thus leave the vehicle potentially vulnerable to sustained artillery, the armour should still be capable of deflecting an initial hit and its speed should make for a very difficult target. There have also been hints that the new structured armour is much better at insulating against heat.
Then there is the force on the wheels, to reduce this we further take weight off of it. We start with a protector and split the wheels into two axles with their own power plant. We then thicken the axles and transmission to make them more resilient. We then separate these two assemblages from the rest of the vehicle and implement a suspension system using crystals. The axles are guided by heavy crystal beams that pass through grooves on the axle to prevent nonvertical mobility. The craft is then suspended over the axle by a thick layer of innumerable fine crystal spikes. These spikes crush as the wheels encounter shocks, allowing them to rise gradually instead of lifting the whole vehicle, and then the very fine crystals all regenerate simultaneously, pushing the wheels back to their original position. If the crystals break too much then the vehicle can be slowed or they can just continue with the hopes of nothing catastrophic happening.
Finally the wheels are made wider and sturdier to handle uneven terrain and a lead keel is added to improve stability. The armament is replaced by a single centrally-mounted cannon of a type deemed appropriate by the commander, but noting the need for mobility. The central gun allows the wheels to be moved further towards the edges, to further enhance mobility, and a central pair of unpowered wheels are added to inhibit getting stuck. Steering is assisted by a large crystal sail summoned at the back as appropriate.
I dislike the R2, it seems like the weather effects will only get worse and are already enough to overcome small arms at any sort of range, and long-range is what we need. Maybe they will come up with some sort of super-armour that lets them ignore close-range fire? Let's hope not, because we are way too overspecialised in guns to recover from that, and we have already seen that ignoring thermal energy is possible, so kinetic energy can't be far off... Really, I just find small-arms in general to be missing the point. Yes, they may become useful in the future, but for now there is precious little opportunity nor need to use them. A silencer would be a better investment as that would allow us to use our existing small arms in more situations.
Mind of madness seems plausible, and would be lethal, and can be revised to let us do our own long-ranged stuff if we want. I would rather get living magic out first as a pure design, it seems sort of ambitious, but I could easily see this working as a conjuration and ought to play merry havoc with their air forces.
Demondium feels off to me. We have plenty of Kegger prisoners to sacrifice, but the production time feels a bit high and the material, while useful, seems a bit too close to crystals, which we have sunk a massive amount of resources into. Finally, and this is the real killer, it feels like a new field of magic, which could really hurt our rolls. After two designs and a revision I am sure that it will be a valuable addition, but now? I am not convinced that it will be worth it. Maybe it can be worked into some sort of summoning ritual? Summoned by sacrificing a large number of Kegger prisoners, most of which go to the other side but some of their energy is imparted into the material that we summon? Of course, then we don't get as much soul and material experience... There are reasons why new fields of magic can be worth it, but I would rather get something out of our mind-control and plant growth magic.
Titan is useless. "Multiple decks" was enough to make that clear so I stopped reading. Even if it can move, it is not moving quickly. It is a massive target for their firepot ballista, they don't even need lucky strike. They can just lob rocks at it and the weight of rocks will eventually crush it. We already have stationary fortifications... AND a national effort for that matter...
Weightite ought to let our artillery work regardless of weather. It is also way-tight! It is the artillery upgrade that we actually need and can be revised into complex shells with even more effective range and extremely strong armours which may be needed if they decide to start countering armour. It also has the advantage of not being crystal, which means that a universal crystal destroyer is not going to shatter it. It also hopefully counts as metal, so perhaps we can double-dip our production bonuses...
Celestedemorte is what we should have built a decade ago, and it is even more relevant now. Their power is entirely dependant upon the clouds, this thing turns clouds into mist, and aircraft into pancakes. It also helps to spread the cold effect to mitigate their fire weapons(Fire will be less effective against prechilled crystals) and the desert's heat. It also churns the air to suck weverythign into it, which means it will be more difficult for them to maintain range. And sucks the air down, which is the opposite of tornadoes sucking air up, and given the immense and universal scale of our chilling effect, we ought to win, it is very difficult to form a spiralling updraft in the middle of a direct downdraft...
Living magic has all sorts of applications from "The Mind of Madness" to universal antimagic resistance to guided weapons and automated turrets to magical computers to enhance research and coordination...
I do not see where the Manticore becomes faster, and thus able to engage their airships.
The Aethergem is actually a really good design right now, but it would be better if it didn't try to be a battery. Let it focus on energy accumulation, there are plenty of ways to get our power into the field...
Quote
1 AS-R2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502955#msg7502955): AndresI removed Chiefwaffles' vote from the Titan, as they were voting twice. If they legitimately intended to vote twice, then I apologise.
3 The Mind of Madness (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502974#msg7502974): RAM, VoidSlayer, FallacyofUrist
0 Demondium (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502974#msg7502974):
1 AS-LFV-2 "Titan" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502996#msg7502996): Andrea
0 Weightite (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503014#msg7503014):
0 Celestedemorte (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503014#msg7503014):
0 Living magic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503014#msg7503014):
0 AS-AMA "Manticore" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503319#msg7503319):
2 Aethergem (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503415#msg7503415): Chiefwaffles, Kadzar
0 RAM-MAP-943 "Pashmad" Mobile Artillery Position (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503503#msg7503503):
0 (http://):
0 (http://):
Trader:
1 - Just give him Crystal Lances, Crystal Axes, and one of our many squad-destroying Wands of Fireball, if he can learn to use it: FallacyofUrist
Post by: andrea on July 05, 2017, 05:15:47 pm
Quote
1 AS-R2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502955#msg7502955): Andres
3 The Mind of Madness (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502974#msg7502974): RAM, VoidSlayer, FallacyofUrist
0 Demondium (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502974#msg7502974):
0 AS-LFV-2 "Titan" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502996#msg7502996):
0 Weightite (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503014#msg7503014):
0 Celestedemorte (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503014#msg7503014):
0 Living magic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503014#msg7503014):
0 AS-AMA "Manticore" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503319#msg7503319):
3 Aethergem (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503415#msg7503415): Chiefwaffles, Kadzar, Andrea
0 RAM-MAP-943 "Pashmad" Mobile Artillery Position (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503503#msg7503503):
0 (http://):
0 (http://):
Trader:
1 - Just give him Crystal Lances, Crystal Axes, and one of our many squad-destroying Wands of Fireball, if he can learn to use it: FallacyofUrist
Changing vote.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 05, 2017, 05:20:46 pm
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1 - AS-R2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502955#msg7502955): AndresRe-added my vote to the Titan. I intended to vote twice, but it's understandable that one could think it was an error.
3 - The Mind of Madness (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502974#msg7502974): RAM, VoidSlayer, FallacyofUrist
0 - Demondium (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502974#msg7502974):
1 - AS-LFV-2 "Titan" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502996#msg7502996): Chiefwaffles
0 - Weightite (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503014#msg7503014):
0 - Celestedemorte (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503014#msg7503014):
0 - Living magic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503014#msg7503014):
0 - AS-AMA "Manticore" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503319#msg7503319):
3 - Aethergem (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503415#msg7503415): Chiefwaffles, Kadzar, Andrea
0 - RAM-MAP-943 "Pashmad" Mobile Artillery Position (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503503#msg7503503):
Trader:
1 - Just give him Crystal Lances, Crystal Axes, and one of our many squad-destroying Wands of Fireball, if he can learn to use it: FallacyofUrist
And I'll make my design as long as I want, thank you very much. There's a reason why I put so much effort into the TL;DR.
RE: The Pashmad MAP;
Just seems like unnecessary sacrifices. The reason the Protector is slow is because it has buggy mobility-related systems. The engine and weight is fine, but its wheels, transmission, and suspension all work together to make the Protector breaking down a frequent occurrence and to make it slow.
Note how Evicted included this in the design post:
The entire device is heavy enough and enough power is lost from the conversion to the wheels that the Protector could probably outrun an unencumbered man on foot, but not a horse.Normally, the weight wouldn't be a problem. But our transmission sucks. So much so that it's causing significant losses of power between the engine and wheels, notably slowing down the Protector.
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Titan is useless. "Multiple decks" was enough to make that clear so I stopped reading. Even if it can move, it is not moving quickly. It is a massive target for their firepot ballista, they don't even need lucky strike. They can just lob rocks at it and the weight of rocks will eventually crush it. We already have stationary fortifications... AND a national effort for that matter...Rude.
"Massive target for their firepot ballista" would be a problem if their firepot ballistae could damage the Titan at all. As it stands, the only thing their Ballistae can do to the protector is A.) Break its wheels or B.) Cover it in enough fire that the occupants have to depart to avoid asphyxiation.
The Titan solves both of these problems. It uses crystal treads, and A.) The atmospheric control system makes asphyxiation impossible + B.) The Titan is so big that covering it with enough fire to asphyxiate the occupants even if it didn't have the ACS is practically impossible.
We do not already have stationary fortifications, pal. The only "fortifications" we use are the old castles in the mountains, which we do not make. The Titan is also not a stationary fortification.
And
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the weight of the rocks will eventually crush it.Seriously?
Seriously?
They're using ballistae, for god's sake. Even if that's how their shots worked, they'd have to spend days - probably weeks - of literally 24/7 shooting at the Titan with massive amounts of ballistae to even start to make the Crystal groan from the weight. But that won't even happen because their bolts will either deflect off or shatter on the crystal armor. Then the crystal armor will self-regenerate after shrugging off a ballistae bolt as it always does. And even if they for some insane reason started doing that, they'd never get that far because the Titan has a large amount of weaponry that can easy eliminate their ballistae before anything like that happens.
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I do not see where the Manticore becomes faster, and thus able to engage their airshipsIt's pretty obvious how it becomes faster. It fixes the transmission, thus radically increasing the speed. The transmission in the Protector, as I said, was what was limiting its speed in the first place.
Post by: RAM on July 05, 2017, 05:51:29 pm
We cannot shoot down their long-ranged artillery.
Any vehicle we build needs to either have longer range then them, or be faster then them. Their airships seems to be plenty fast. And I would not say that the air filtration is any more likely on the Ttan than Protector. Now, if it were made the first priority, then I might concede that air filtration might prevent fire from being effective. Rocks, however, would be effective against anything with a flat top, which the titan would appear to possess, or they could use lead balls instead. And I feel that they would only need a few hours, maybe a couple of days, to get a large enough section heavy enough, but they do, in fact, have weeks or months if they need them. They are faster than it and have more range. Our lack of speed and range has us at a technical disadvantage and if we don't address it then we are fighting n uphill battle to upgrade our thick, slow armour to the point that we can somehow deal with being unable to engage their best forces at all.
Post by: helmacon on July 05, 2017, 05:54:39 pm
We are close to winning, and I don't trust the RNG to keep us rolling. As simple as the changes of the Manticore are, I'm hoping to get a +2, and would be surprised if we didn't get at least a +1.
Despite its simplicity, it has the potential to be a total game changer.
I like the idea of aether gems, but seeing as we already have a credit for our next gem thing, and it's really not all that different from a mage gem, I think we ought to do it as the revision.
@RAM/everyone
The fact that the Manticore can move an HA1 at all makes it a soft counter to their range debuff. Regular artillery (presumably) has to be dragged from one location to another, meaning or artillery line can't move up until the area ahead is secure or they would be destroyed in transit. The Manticore can move and shoot at the same time meaning we can push back their lines. Furthermore, it's armoured and would take a long time for them to destroy, even if it wasn't destroying them at the same time!
Furthermore, it improves the transmission and switches from wagon wheels (eww) to proper tank treads. This means it won't get slowed down as much by soft sand or light mud, and it won't be disabled by every rock or pothole it comes across. Even if it isn't necessarily fast enough to chase down and destroy enemy skyships, it can push through no man's land without being destroyed and force them to retreat, meaning we gain ground.
Its essentially taking what was a theoretical research design with the protector and making it into something realistically built for use in combat. The titan pushes ahead to something ambitious and theoretical again without first makeing use of what we already have. The Manticore is something almost guaranteed to be effective, which is what we need for this final push.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 05, 2017, 06:16:37 pm
The frost towers were noted as being fixed fortifications.Semantics. The towers are not of any use for defensive purposes.
We cannot shoot down their long-ranged artillery.We don't need to if we can just make things on the land (which decides who wins) that can just ignore their artillery.
Any vehicle we build needs to either have longer range then them, or be faster then them.No they don't.
If we can annihilate them when they get close and their long-range stuff does nothing against them, we win. For example, see this combat phase where we just won everywhere except the jungle and where we won at sea even though their airships outrange our Crystalclads.
Their airships seems to be plenty fast. And I would not say that the air filtration is any more likely on the Ttan than Protector."This is a stupid design because I'm deciding that it's stupid."
You can't just pick and choose what parts of the design you want.
Now, if it were made the first priority, then I might concede that air filtration might prevent fire from being effective.There's also the part where we don't even need air filtration to make their fire largely useless. They would have to uniformly cover every inch of the Titan with fire, even the sides, to start asphyxiation. And then the fire would run out before the air supply inside the Titan runs out.
Rocks, however, would be effective against anything with a flat top, which the titan would appear to possess, or they could use lead balls instead.And I feel that they would only need a few hours, maybe a couple of days, to get a large enough section heavy enough, but they do, in fact, have weeks or months if they need them.Oh, a few days?
You do realize that we still outrange their ballistae, right?
Also switching to lead is a revision they'd have to explicitly do.
Also.
(http://i.imgur.com/O6HUti5.png)
They are faster than it and have more range. Our lack of speed and range has us at a technical disadvantage and if we don't address it then we are fighting n uphill battle to upgrade our thick, slow armour to the point that we can somehow deal with being unable to engage their best forces at all.They outrange us with two weapons:
1.) Lightning. Useless against the Titan.
2.) Tornadoes. Useless against the Titan.
Their airships have zero weapons useful against the Titan and are in the air. If they get close to the Titan, they're dead. So we can easily capture things uncontested.
@Helmacon:
Aethergems are without doubt a Design. Think about precedence. Magegems were a Design - a well-rolling one too - even though you could reason them juts as a revision to anti-magic charms so they don't release energy anymore.
Explosive ammunition could be reasoned as a revision - just sticking a scroll + magegem inside an existing shell.
With Aethergems we are creating an artificial link to the Aether, something we have never done before. We are using that link to charge a Magegem with no human interaction involved. That's definitely worth a design.
I'd love it if they were a revision, but they're certainly not.
Post by: helmacon on July 05, 2017, 07:38:52 pm
Quote
1 - AS-R2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502955#msg7502955): Andres
4 - The Mind of Madness (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502974#msg7502974): RAM, VoidSlayer, FallacyofUrist, helmacon
0 - Demondium (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502974#msg7502974):
1 - AS-LFV-2 "Titan" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502996#msg7502996): Chiefwaffles
0 - Weightite (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503014#msg7503014):
0 - Celestedemorte (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503014#msg7503014):
0 - Living magic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503014#msg7503014):
0 - AS-AMA "Manticore" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503319#msg7503319):
3 - Aethergem (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503415#msg7503415): Chiefwaffles, Kadzar, Andrea
0 - RAM-MAP-943 "Pashmad" Mobile Artillery Position (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503503#msg7503503):
Trader:
1 - Just give him Crystal Lances, Crystal Axes, and one of our many squad-destroying Wands of Fireball, if he can learn to use it: FallacyofUrist
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 05, 2017, 08:18:39 pm
I want to diversify so that when Moskurg inevitably counters crystal(I suspect they'll start that next turn due to seeing how tough our Crystalclads are) we won't be totally doomed.
Mind of Madness will take some time to develop, but 1, we're winning heavily right now and have some leeway to develop new stuff, and 2, we do have some experience with this from our Falcons, and 3, it looks to be extremely useful at disrupting weather magic. And divination. And basically everything Moskurg's good at. Meanwhile, the disruption to our own mages is minimal, we don't really manipulate things at a distance, at all, save our Wasp spell, and even that I'm not sure of. Our mages mainly occupy artillery nowadays, something which shouldn't really make them vulnerable to Mind of Madness.
If we have the second revision(Evicted: do we have the second revision from having our Heir fight?) or we don't need to revise Mind of Madness, I'd be fine with revising the Protector, for all you naysayers. Armored transport is an excellent concept, it's just that I want to diversify into other fields of magic right now that we have the advantage.
Other possibilities for expansion that we have (varying amounts of) building blocks for include plant magic, human sacrifice, aether generation, and the best idea of all, catgirl assassins, nyah!
Post by: helmacon on July 05, 2017, 08:25:04 pm
Also, catgirls never!!
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 05, 2017, 08:25:15 pm
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"A malignant incorporeal supernatural intelligence is summoned to the battlefield to assault those foolish enough to project their minds outwards. Any attempt to control or perceive at a distance with magic and the mind will result in an assault on the senses sure to drive the wizard mad."Ah yes, malignant incorporeal supernatural intelligence. Something we have literally zero experience with.
The best thing we can summon is a wasp. It's a... pretty significant jump from a wasp to "incorporeal supernatural intelligence." We'd have to somehow make the intelligence supernatural instead of just summoning a standard living thing from a standard schematic.
This is not "a few revisions". This is "numerous revisions and designs" if we're lucky.
We will win in two turns if we can keep the advantage. We just need to keep the advantage for those two turns. Now is the last time to do theoretical research into something that won't prove viable for a long time. Doing so lets Moskurg actually counter our stuff.
And you know how hard counters turn out. They'll get countered as well.
So we'll spend multiple designs and actions on this while Moskurg turns the tide in the Desert. Then once we make it useful, Moskurg will spend a revision undoing our counter and continue with their newfound advantage.
Post by: RAM on July 05, 2017, 08:34:42 pm
Because they are too slow and lack range. Their fortifications are weaker than the titan's, but they still function as a strongpoint, so no, not semantics, they are defensive structures, literally and practically. Yet, as you said, they are not of any use. It is not that they are not defensive structures, because they quite clearly are, and they function in that capacity, it is that defensive structures, such as the Titan, are not of any use. So you yourself are saying that that the Titan is useless unless it is at least moderately fast, and a multiple-deck tank is not going to be fast. It is somewhat unlikely that it could cover a single terrain section in the span of a year. And almost certain that it will take years to get to the desert from the crystalworks in our homeland. No doubt the G.M. will not be that strict, but we really wouldn't have any avenue to complain if they deemed that it can only be deployed to a territory if it is adjacent to that territory and has spent a full year in its current territory. It is basically a Ratte, with inferior transmission, suspension, engines, and tracks. We have better fuel, but that won't get us the same speed and the ratte's claim of 40kph is a bit ambitious for something that was never made...The frost towers were noted as being fixed fortifications.Semantics. The towers are not of any use for defensive purposes.
They are pretty certain to attempt something that can penetrate armour. Land doesn't "decide who wins" any more than air does. It is the lines, and they CAN stop the Titan. Firstly, the Titan will never meet specifications. It is asking for at least two new technologies along with completely unprecedented scale and enough minor details on top of that for another design. Secondly, they can just pile broken shells on top of it. Bursting shells will kill anyone who tries to clear it. Our range has been reduced to the extent that they are very much able to shell us at present. with complete immunity. Or they could sneak up to the thing and use an antimagic spell to turn it off...We cannot shoot down their long-ranged artillery.We don't need to if we can just make things on the land (which decides who wins) that can just ignore their artillery.
If we can annihilate them when they get close and their long-range stuff does nothing against them, we win. For example, see this combat phase where we just won everywhere except the jungle and where we won at sea even though their airships outrange our Crystalclads.We took massive losses at sea, that was just a zerg-rush, the sea proves that they can mess us up as it stands. The desert was a coin-toss, and assuming that the Titan can even get there, AND prove more effective than the Protector even though the latter was less of a prototype, then it will still lose because it is just more of the same and they will counter it. Far more likely one of those things will not be true and assuming the enemy does nothing then it will be another coin toss.
Well now you are being wilfully ignorant. I am sorry to be so blunt, but that is the simple truth of it. I am very clearly pointing out that it factually did not happen the last time that it was attempted. It WAS tried and it DID fail. It has been said that insanity it doing the same thing and expecting a different result...Their airships seems to be plenty fast. And I would not say that the air filtration is any more likely on the Ttan than Protector."This is a stupid design because I'm deciding that it's stupid."
You can't just pick and choose what parts of the design you want.
Here, let me do it:
"This is a great design because everything will go exactly as I say it will"
You can't just pick and choose what a design action can achieve and how it will turn out!
See? It is silly when I do it and it is silly when you do it. If you want your arguments to look credible, try actually addressing the argument.
The air filtration didn't happen on the previous design, because it is close to a design of its own. We were lucky that the G.M. chose to just skip it entirely rather than say "Well yes, you have an air-filtration system, but you still die of CO2 poisoning, You have wheels that don't turn because they are overloads, guns that can't aim because the armour gets in the way, and doors that sometimes don't open, killing the crew from CO2 poisoning, because your design was too ambitious". We got a working design because the G.M. is waaaaay too kind to us. If we are EXTREMELY LUCKY we would be skipping air filtration on this design too. Or we could get our completely new technologies in magic and construction and transmission and tracks and everything else but have a design that can not, in fact, perform any function at all, and a bunch of partial researches that still take a full design action to uncover so all we got was a few small bonuses that are not worth a full design action even if we did bother to explore all of them.
... really?Now, if it were made the first priority, then I might concede that air filtration might prevent fire from being effective.There's also the part where we don't even need air filtration to make their fire largely useless. They would have to uniformly cover every inch of the Titan with fire, even the sides, to start asphyxiation. And then the fire would run out before the air supply inside the Titan runs out.
That is simply untrue. The fire sucks the air into itself. It could potentially suffocate the vehicle just with a fire on top or to the sides. With both the top and to the sides it is basically certain. If it were actually ON the sides, like, occasionally, here and there, then it is so utterly doomed that the words don't exist to express it. Every inch would just be a ludicrous frenzy of doom that would spell instant death to the entire populations of both nations just by being associated with such a magnificent behemoth of irrevocable doom which would be promptly ripped from the planet and cast to the depths to prevent the malignant doom infection from spreading. And don't forget that their fire is specifically noted as being extremely persistent...
You do realize that we still outrange their ballistae, right?It i lead balls, that does not take much revision, they could mix it with armour penetrating rounds if they liked, and they probably will.
Also switching to lead is a revision they'd have to explicitly do.
As for the range, they do, rather explicitly, outrange us right now. You seem to have skipped over the bit where they invented a spell to reduce our range.
(http://i.imgur.com/O6HUti5.png)Thankyou, this confirms quite nicely that it will shatter into a mound of heavy material that cannot be easily expelled. That is quite exactly as I predicted. Thankyou for comprehensively confirming my point. Not also that this is against protectors, with more of a "deflect" philosophy. The Titan has "decks". It is basically a giant landing strip for enemy munitions. They can probably land boarders and infiltrate the thing and use it against us for a turn before game balance destroys it if they are so inclined...
1.) Lightning. Causes surface damage OR penetrates straight through the hull and fries the crew. Choose one.They are faster than it and have more range. Our lack of speed and range has us at a technical disadvantage and if we don't address it then we are fighting n uphill battle to upgrade our thick, slow armour to the point that we can somehow deal with being unable to engage their best forces at all.They outrange us with two weapons:
1.) Lightning. Useless against the Titan.
2.) Tornadoes. Useless against the Titan.
Their airships have zero weapons useful against the Titan and are in the air. If they get close to the Titan, they're dead. So we can easily capture things uncontested.
2.) Whirlwinds. Causes extremely low pressure, can be revised to suck the air out. We need the Celestedemorte to counter these with a high-pressure effect. Also they probably render the artiller unusable for their duration.
3.) Ballista. with enough shelling they can get through. They totally have the range since the enemy invented a range-reduction spell.
The titan is not invulnerable, and even if it were, it can only be in one place at a time, it is hardly capable of single-handedly quashing an entire country. Especially not one with enough air-ships to put its government into orbit...
Aethergems are without doubt a Design.And suddenly you talk sense! Yes, adding a new mechanism of magic generation to our army is, indeed, a design of its own. If we could also recognise that "building a super-massive object is most of a design, putting it on land instead of the sea is most of a design, transmission is a revision, tank tracks are probably a full design, Air filtration is definitely a design... Although it would be better if they were based on antimagic charms and not on magems though. Adding a battery capacity can only serve to weaken the power gathering aspect. It is easy enough to put magems on a charging circuit or to put a power generator directly onto a dedicated circuit. Making them as powerful as possible serves our purposes much better than compromising them by incorporating a storage function.
Plagiarism HO!
Gemerators
Based upon Bjorn's thesis.
Gemerators are ultimately a variation of the
Scroll circuitry embedded into gemerators allows them to use this energy to create an artificial link to Yggdrasil. Once this link is created, magical energy flows freely into the Gemerator and from there, into any attached circuitry, powering it. Gemerators can thus distribute magic to magic devices such as cannons or Magems via circuits or similar devices.
Gemerators aim purely to be able to accumulate magic at as fast a rate as possible while being stable enough for use.
We hope to incorporate these into all larger devices, prioritising those that will free up the most wizards. Additional powering grids for magemes will be constructed to provide gems for lighter users such as small-arms where a gemerator in the device itself would be cumbersome.
Yes, Mind of Madness benefits from conjuration, as it is a conjured entity, and Hawk taming, which is a mental effect. It is ambitious, no doubt, but not to an extreme degree. I could certainly see it failing, but in the absence of anything else I want to support...
Post by: helmacon on July 05, 2017, 08:44:39 pm
If you want mobility and firepower, vote Manticore!
It gives us working APCs and Tanks! Even if they develop some sort of crystal counter, it's still a tank! IRL, weapons specifically designed to counter tanks don't make tanks obsolete. It preempts a vehicle counter by the keggers, makes our battle lines flexible and reactive, gives us an edge in melee with a working APC, and lets us make serious offensives with true armor units.
The only way they can kill our tanks would be with artillery, (and even then it's not easy) and we are winning when it comes to artillery. It would be almost impossible for a pure infantry force to advance against tanks. It would be GLORIOUS!
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 05, 2017, 08:49:24 pm
Because they are too slow and lack range. Their fortifications are weaker than the titan's, but they still function as a strongpoint, so no, not semantics, they are defensive structures, literally and practically. Yet, as you said, they are not of any use.
The tower is not a defensive fortification.
It is a tower that makes the area cold. It is of no use defensively.
It does not move.
It does not have weapons.
It is not armored.
It is rare.
It is small.
It is not a defensive fortification.
It is not that they are not defensive structures, because they quite clearly are, and they function in that capacity, it is that defensive structures, such as the Titan, are not of any use. So you yourself are saying that that the Titan is useless unless it is at least moderately fast, and a multiple-deck tank is not going to be fast.Quite literally never said that. Please don't make up things.
I was going to continue arguing, but then I realize that your entire argument is just...
stupid.
I'm tired of dealing with your constant petty counter"points".
RAM, your arguments are idiotic.
You constantly make up things. Constantly.
Hell, I've pointed this out before yet you keep on doing this. You make up everything. It's like you use a random number generator to pick a conclusion then just make up random crap to try to justify that conclusion.
I can keep on picking apart your crappy arguments and point out the blatant falsehoods and assumptions dripping from every line, but I'm done. People can do that themselves. They can look at your argument and make the obvious conclusion that you are, in fact, making things up. And I'll be spared the trouble of having you making up more shit to "counter" my points.
I don't want to tire out Evicted (hell, or even toady) so this is going to be my only post regarding this. From now on, unless you start making posts/arguments with substantial amounts of content that I'm able to actually respond to instead of just pointing out the many wrong things, I won't be replying to anything argumentative from you. This isn't meant to be an ultimatum or anything, but rather because I'm tired of doing this and I don't want to pollute the thread with this kind of stuff anymore.
But with that being said, I have one last thing to post regarding something you said (though it's mostly for the fun last bit!):
Quote
Yes, Mind of Madness benefits from conjuration, as it is a conjured entity, and Hawk taming, which is a mental effect. It is ambitious, no doubt, but not to an extreme degree. I could certainly see it failing, but in the absence of anything else I want to support...It's ambitious to an extreme degree.
Hawk taming is modification of an existing physical mind for minor effects.
We can conjure a wasp. With the intelligence of a wasp.
And you're saying that making a superintelligent being without a physical mind with a gigantic presence that can drive mages mad isn't extremely ambitious?
Well, on the bright side, I do get to say "I told you so" if the Mind of Madness goes through.
Actually, remember when you (RAM) said making a Falcon larger was impossible? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7476274#msg7476274)
Almost like you have a vendetta against someone.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 05, 2017, 08:55:17 pm
And while the Titan is a good idea, like RAM said, you're fitting 3 designs or more into one. That doesn't work, even if we have every prerequisite necessary, and it'll be useless when they counter crystal.
If you want me to vote for something you propose, don't build off our main fields of expertise, build off our side fields of expertise. I would love to see an anti-weather spell, for instance. Or one that simply prevents them from casting as opposed to fighting the weather, which would be harder to counter. We need to be more diversified.
I will definitely vote for Catgirl Assassins if you propose it. That would be the best idea, actually. It definitely branches off what we already have more than Mind of Madness, and may approach Mind of Madness' usefulness.
Materials for Mind of Madness:
Fog. We can't make something that's truly immaterial without penalties, but a fog body could work.
Mind Manipulation(sadly, not from the wand, but from the Falcons whose minds we modified).
Various Magical Manipulations(we have plenty of experience manipulating magic, enough to start work on teleportation, really, which would be an acceptable diversification).
Actually, Mind of Madness doesn't need to be intelligent, it just needs to have a dumb little mind that detects projected minds and attacks. That's the only new part, and honestly, wasps are more complex than this.
It's basically a mind in the fog that goes: If detect mind, Then flay mind. Wasps have to do so much more than that.
VoidSlayer: Mind of Madness looks much more likely to succeed with this interpretation, please edit your design accordingly if you agree.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 05, 2017, 09:04:08 pm
Honestly, I think we have sufficient momentum to keep winning for at least this turn
Let's see.
Jungle: We lost.
Desert: We had a tie. We only won by coinflip.
Plains: We win, but in Evicted's words:
Quote
Arstotzka manages to gain ground. It's not by a huge degree, but the battle does go solidly in their favor.And this was with both Myark and Bjorn there.
Seas: We won, but that's not really the focus here.
That's not that much momentum. With the right design and non-awful rolls, Moskurg can easily continue winning in the jungle, win again in the desert, and perhaps even start winning in the plains.
EDIT: To add to my point-
Sure. If we were to do nothing and Moskurg was to do nothing from here on out, then we would eventually win.
But Moskurg's desperate, and they're not just going to sit around doing nothing while we waste our time on theoretical research. Our designs aren't isolated in a void. Moskurg's making a design now too.
Quote
I would love to see an anti-weather spell, for instance. Or one that simply prevents them from casting as opposed to fighting the weather, which would be harder to counter. We need to be more diversified.Hard counters are an unfun consequence of the nature of Wands Race. They arise because Wands Race is the only game that actually allows for notable amounts of hard counters thanks to the less-grounded design possibilities.
Hard counters are not fun. They're boring and all they do is invalidate another's design.
Hard counters are not the way to victory. Moskurg started winning not because they hard countered our artillery, but because they revolutionized the battle by making air units. We started winning not because we hard countered Moskurg's wind magic, but because we invested in our artillery.
Your interpretation of Mind of Madness is definitely more reasonable, but I still don't like it.
Quote
And while the Titan is a good idea, like RAM said, you're fitting 3 designs or more into one. That doesn't work, even if we have every prerequisite necessary, and it'll be useless when they counter crystal.If they counter crystal, we will lose once. The Titan has no bearing here.
Our infantry have armor and weapons of crystal.
Our engines are made of crystal.
Our artillery is made of crystal.
Our Protectors and trains are made of crystal.
Our Crystalclad is made of crystal.
If they counter crystal, we will lose once, then revise crystal to be better than it was before, making their hard counter useless while benefitting ourself. This does not change based on the Titan.
EDIT: And this if Evicted lets them counter Crystal. As I said, hard counters are unfun and it should be obvious to anyone what countering crystal or anything like that would do - just endless hard counters.
And how am I fitting three designs into one?
The Titan is "make a huge land vehicle, give it treads, give it cannons." How that is that three designs?
Post by: helmacon on July 05, 2017, 09:28:45 pm
And mind of madness is a rather good design on its own. Even if it's not intelligent at all and just attacks any exposed mind out in the theater on wasp like instinct, it's still incredibly useful. All of their weather rituals rely on them throwing their mind out there into the storm, so if we shut that down we gain our range bonus back, plus with the now cheap explosive and extra range ammunition we will be absolutely destroying them. It helps us in the jungle too, because it shuts out their tornado things and we still win in straight melee.
It also gives us a stepping stone for AI, which would be cool for all kinds of things.
Believe it or not, my "Spite vote" is rather well reasoned.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 05, 2017, 09:34:56 pm
CW, I really have a hard time believing that your concern is serious when you refuse to compromise any part of your design to push it through. I made multiple concessions to you, but because you're more concerned with Your ideas getting through than a design you think will help, neither will likely be happening.
Your "concession" is literally turning the Manticore into a revision. With no changes to the design.
In a single revision, you want to:
1.) Fix the transmission. (This is worth 1 revision)
2.) Fix the suspension. (Could potentially be done in a pair)
3.) Add treads. (This is worth 1 revision)
4.) Replace the HC1-E with a HA1, and create a variant without the HA1. (This could potentially be done in a pair)
That's not a revision, and you just don't want to accept that.
Please don't accuse me of just "being a phony" because you don't accept my reasoning. I really don't appreciate when you're attacking me for caring more about my designs getting through than the right thing. If you'd bother to read my arguments you'd know that isn't the truth.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 05, 2017, 09:43:36 pm
~~~
As for us winning:
Recall that owning the seas gives a huge advantage. We're winning in the seas, because crystal clad spam. By the time Moskurg's tech makes it possible for them to take the advantage, we'll have the seas and will be using that to our advantage.
The only reason the Desert was such an issue was that both of their special mages were there. They made the difference.
We don't have an overwhelming advantage in the plains, just a solid one(even with both special mages), but again seas, and if we get Mind of Madness working, it'll mush their weather magic and other stuff and give us the overwhelming advantage we're looking for. Heck, they can't even blow it away because if they try, bang, mind eaten by Mind of Madness.
To conclude:
Tundra: Why are we even discussing this?
Mountains: Extreme yes.
Jungle: Extreme yes.
Plains: Solid yes, with special mages.
Desert: Wishy-washy yes, with enemy special mages.
Seas: Solid yes.
We don't have a problem here. We have time to diversify. If we don't diversify, eventually something will happen that will bite us hard, like Moskurg countering our frost towers.
Suggestion: When we're one land away from their final piece of Desert, we revise Frost Towers to actually work against their troops and design them to be more powerful, and crush them like ice in a grinder.
Post by: helmacon on July 05, 2017, 09:46:27 pm
Then when I didn't vote for your design anyways you accused me for voting purely out of spite. I believe the exact line that you so graciously deleted from the discord was
"So pure spite. Gotcha. I'll be sure to repay this."
Literally threatening me for not voting for your designs. If you haven't noticed, this is a team game. You can't just strong arm all your ideas through and expect everybody to just go along.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 05, 2017, 09:52:09 pm
If you haven't noticed, this is a team game. You can't just strong arm all your ideas through and expect everybody to just go along.(Emphasis mine)
Uh-huh.
(http://i.imgur.com/tpziYlC.png)
Again, your concession is literally just the Manticore, but in a revision. That's it. As gracious as you may believe you are for offering it down to lowly me, it's simply too ambitious.
I like the Manticore. It just won't work in a revision, and we have more important things for designs right now.
I'll say what I said in discord - The Manticore would be great if we could first fix the Protector in a revision this turn, then use our next design to make a better version of it thanks to the extra space we have from not having to include treads as a new thing.
And I'm confused - how did I threaten you? Because that is apparently some extremely generous paraphrasing you have there.
EDIT: Forgot to respond to Fallacy.
I agree with you completely on the "first three points in one revision". That's actually what I said to helmacon when he first brought it up and is what I've been saying about the Protector practically since we designed it. But Helmacon isn't willing to budge on the HA1 apparently, and got madder when I talked to him about it.
My problem with the Mind of Madness is that it's a new spell that will take tons of revision and time to get working. Sure, if we get it fully working now then it'd be great, but Moskurg will do things in the time we spend to get it working.
First - we should not spend both revisions on it. We need our revisions for other things. I don't know if you want this, but I just want to state this.
Second - If it's not functional this turn, then that gives Moskurg a massive chance to turn the tides.
Third - This is a hard counter! Hard counters can almost definitely be easily countered due to the nature of the game. We'll spend tons of time on this to hard counter their wind magic, then they spend a revision to get their wind magic working again, effectively getting a free turn in the process because we wasted ours.
Post by: helmacon on July 05, 2017, 10:09:38 pm
Quote
Again, your concession is literally just the Manticore, but in a revision.This is just insulting. We spent a good bit of time debating the merits of our respective designs on the discord, and couldn't come to an agreement. Then, I came back with a compromise. I would vote for your design if we did the manticore in two steps through the revisions. This wasn't good enough for you. You wanted one of the revisions to do your anti magic stuff too. Again, I compromised. I offered a stripped down version of the Manticore. Stripped out all the atmosphere control, access panels, ammo fabrication, all the bells and whistles. Just the basics. Just what makes the Manticore the manticore. Treads, transmission, and gun. But this still wasn't good enough for you. This was too much. So I graciously concluded our negotiations and placed my vote where I thought it would be better used.
Then you attacked me. You called my vote a "spite vote" insisting that I couldn't possibly actualy support this idea that wasn't your own, and then, the kicker. You threatened me. I can put up with a lot of shit, but this crossed a line. It went from a heated debate about a difference of ideas with a few ad hominem attacks thrown in, to a literal threat. So yes. I stand by my statement and I stand by my vote. I purposely didn't post it in the thread because there are certain guidelines for behavior on todays forums, but I stand by it. I will not sit here and be insulted, threatened and berated over a difference of opinion. I will not be responding to you again in this thread.
My advice to you would be to take a step back and realise that this is just a game. You seriously need to back off.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 05, 2017, 10:17:44 pm
First - we should not spend both revisions on it. We need our revisions for other things. I don't know if you want this, but I just want to state this.First. I agree with you. Ideally we would not spend any revisions on it, but I don't think that's likely. One revision will have to do.
Second - If it's not functional this turn, then that gives Moskurg a massive chance to turn the tides.
Third - This is a hard counter! Hard counters can almost definitely be easily countered due to the nature of the game. We'll spend tons of time on this to hard counter their wind magic, then they spend a revision to get their wind magic working again, effectively getting a free turn in the process because we wasted ours.
Second. A chance, but I don't think it's a massive one, considering our current advantage.
Third. This isn't just wind magic. This is any magic they use that works at a distance, or most of it anyways. This is the ultimate counter. If we use our spare revision on frost towers for a boosted edge, we could possibly win the game this year if we win solidly enough, but if we don't, we'll be on the edge of victory and then you can do crystal stuff to crush them utterly.
And what, anyway, do they have that can counter it? If they don't have the prerequisites for a counter, it'll be even more effective.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on July 05, 2017, 11:03:12 pm
Chiefwaffles, I do not recall any occasion in which you "pointed ... out ... [RAM] make[s ] up everything[ In their arguments].". In order to point something out, you must point. I do not recall a single occasion in which it was every explained how any of my statements are "made up". It has been stated before, but never with any justification as to how it might be an accurate description of current matters. If you refuse to even state which specific elements of my statements are unsubstantiated then, well, it makes it really difficult to understand how your arguments could be compelling. So many of your designs have failed to even address all of their stated goals. It is obvious that your understanding of the game's boundaries is either lacking or you are deliberately making designs that are overambitious for some other reason. The crystalworks didn't have conveyor belts or steam engines or robot arms or anything, it was just slabs with a series of slots for templates. We submitted something silly and got something wonderful. The G.M. bent over backwards to give that to use and I can't see how we could be so fortunate. The protector didn't get air systems or antimagic immunity. It should have, it should have tried, failed, and resulted in not even any useful experience. What we got was mobile guns and armour. It was a miracle that the G.M. gifted us with such a working design, and we can only pray that we continue to benefit from such gifts. Should we continue to exploit this? I am not entirely comfortable with submitting nonsense and relying upon the G.M. to sanitise it. If we really want to just go out on a limb and do something awesome, lets do it in style!
Summon large, dangerous plant
Summons a large, dangerous plant (http://godzilla.wikia.com/wiki/Biollante). We have experience with plants, and summoning animals, and can use magems to power particularly large spells. This will obviously be easy because duh! and will be completely unopposably powerful because I said so, regardless of rolls or logic. We have experience from fields that included the keywords: Plant, shoot, and energy, along with designs that had results that could be listed as: "larger than it was before", "friendly to us", "largely impossible by all known sanity", and "spontaneous existence of weird creatures with energy attacks" so this design is not just plausible, but actually so incredibly easy that no sane person could find issue with it and I'll fight anyone who suggest that my idea might have flaws!
Quote
remember when you (RAM) said making a Falcon larger was impossible?Could you please cite the relevance of this? I am really not comprehending it. At a glance you seem to be equating it with the Mind of Madness spell. I don't really see the relevance. We have absolutely no experience with giant animals. We have experience with modified summons, which is not the same as modified natural animals. As summoned critter comes into being according to specifications. A natural critter comes into being according to specific designs and modifications must occur without rendering the critter nonviable at any point in the process and must enforce themselves over an actively manifesting design. If we didn't have conjuration, then I would suggest that giant falcons would be easier to make from existing falcons rather than making them out of nothing, but we are- It doesn;t seem right that I would have said that it was impossible though, just a new research field would be difficult and probably fail. Low odds off it working right and... Hrmm, the post your link sent me to didn't say that anything was impossible at all, odd, it seems that you are just making things up, by the Titan-load...
Now, for a refresher, this is how you do it.
You said that I said that giant falcons were impossible, and then you linked a post to that.
I checked the link, and I did not state that that giant falcons were impossible within that link.
You made a statement and that statement was false. You are making things up.
See, that is how you claim that someone is making things up. It is simple, you point out why the thing that they said is not true. You do not just claim that it is untrue and leave it at that, you actually have to explain why it is so. Well, unless you only want to win over simpletons.
Now, I am willing to believe that I might have said that giant falcons are impossible, in context. Such as "it is impossible to make them bigger as a revision" or "Making them bigger and armoured and lightning proof in a single design is just not possible", but "falcons being giant cannot occur" seems like something that I wouldn't say. But I am not the most consistent person...
Who wants to play a game of Spot the Difference?
Any vehicle we build needs to either have longer range then them, or be faster then them.No they don't.
If we can annihilate them when they get close and their long-range stuff does nothing against them, we win. For example, see this combat phase where we just won everywhere except the jungle and where we won at sea even though their airships outrange our Crystalclads.
Now I just leave it here with no explanation and see if people think that I have offered some grand insight or if I am just spinning my wheels uselessly. Now, granted, it is a very VERY strong shift in emphasis, but does it really contradict?Honestly, I think we have sufficient momentum to keep winning for at least this turn
Let's see.
Jungle: We lost.
Desert: We had a tie. We only won by coinflip.
Plains: We win, but in Evicted's words:QuoteArstotzka manages to gain ground. It's not by a huge degree, but the battle does go solidly in their favor.And this was with both Myark and Bjorn there.
Seas: We won, but that's not really the focus here.
The reason that we won was my idea of a large-project oriented crystalworks. We got cheap guns and cheap ships. Those cheap ships made the turn for us. The seas are a massive power-factor and if Moskurg focuses on land then they will massively regret the sea advantage. The cheap cannons held our advantage. The protector, while useful, really wasn't a factor. It added some pressure, as an armoured combat vehicle would, but it wasn't effective at bringing down things that beat its range and speed, as was expected. We could have revised its speed, but even that would have only limited effects and been prone to an altitude upgrade on the carpets. Point is that the protector didn't win us the battles last turn. And a revision to it would not have changed that as far as I can see. We won the turn because of cheap cannons and ships. I remember seeing the cheap crystalclads in the revision description and suffering from a bout of internal giggling.
If they counter crystal, we will lose once, then revise crystal to be better than it was before, making their hard counter useless while benefitting ourself. This does not change based on the Titan.We could spend this design doing something that is not made of crystal. Or developing a mixture of materials even? Weightite is still an option...
EDIT: And this if Evicted lets them counter Crystal. As I said, hard counters are unfun and it should be obvious to anyone what countering crystal or anything like that would do - just endless hard counters.
And how am I fitting three designs into one?
The Titan is "make a huge land vehicle, give it treads, give it cannons." How that is that three designs?
As for endlessly revising crystals to be immune to sound. We do it one, then they pull a universal frequency so we can't frequency juggle anymore. Then they pull a magic sound so that our semisolid crystals are forced to listen so we can't change the nature of their existence anymore. It is a bad line for us to follow as our avenues of retreat are steadily cut off.
As for what Evictedsaint will let them pull off? Well, lets see, what of the recent adamantine that is completely immune to all of our thermal magic, both hot and cold? And makes them immune to the thermal effects of high altitude while they are at it?
Well surely evicted wouldn't do that to our crystals!
With their troops lightly armored and massed, our theatre commander decides to start off with a sudden, powerful charge from our heavy calvary. They can't maintain formation in the dense undergrowth, but there's enough of them it doesn't matter. Gleaming lances of magic crystal are clutched in the hands of each horseman, but just before they slam into the enemy troops they all vanish into a puff of smoke. It's a shock to the horsemen as their weapons disappear from their grasp, leaving them unarmed in the midst of enemy spearmen. It's not even close - only one in ten make it back to our lines. Our men are dead silent as our wounded and decimated calvary are shuffled off the field. That battle went poorly, but now we know they have some new brand of magic that dispels our crystal weapons.Well, we could have called that. I mean, it is antimagic, defeating magic is its whole thing! It is not as though our crystals had been previously demonstrated to completely ignore the antimagic fields of our antimagic charms... Oh wait...
Honestly, you are arguing that evictedSaint would not let Moskurg completely destroy all of our crystals. It has literally already happened once. How can you still have credibility at this point?
But hey, at least you are solid on The Titan not being three designs, right?
Massive in size in every way.I cut out all of the stuff that I thought we already had, and thus would not require effort within the design. And honestly, I could see us spending two designs on the size ofthe thing. One for something that big at sea and another for supporting it on land.
Layered resistive crystal makes it invulnerable to lightning strikes.
I recall that we never did get around to making resistive and conductive crystal variants. The overambitious armour project skipped it and I do not recall picking it up again.
Caterpillar treads
Transmission is improved
crystal wiring (or just sending the magical current through the walls if necessary/possible).
these two are probably pretty minor. It just says "improved" without any specifications so it is not like we are designing a modern gearbox here. And the crystal wiring is likely already working, just a risk of the scale being too much.
Magegem LightingI do not recall if they have sufficient radiance to work for this without modification, and you already have a room full to just under national effort of the things... and then again, low power means no light, so an antimagic field is lethal instead of merely disastrous. As is exhausting its power.
Internal Detonation Engines working in parallel
I expect that this will further pressure the transmission, but it might not be that bad...
Control Panels & Piloting
This seems like more technical stuff that we don't have yet. In theory it is just checking the power-levels of the circuits and whether the circuits are complete or not. But I do not believe that we currently have a means of determining whether a circuit is complete based upon a magem. An apprentice could probably pulse it to check if it is working, but it is yet more complexity to sort out.
upgrade it to include air recycling (also enchantment style). Seal the Titan to air. The strength of Crystal combined with this should allow the Titan to go fairly deep underwater, provided all hatches and whatnot are closed securely.
I recall it being explicitly stated that circuits required ongoing power additions in order to function. Scrolls may be different? This whole "enchantment" thing seems to be made-up, but feel free to cite a source if it isn't. Air recycling is, well, we could do recycling with convection, but it wouldn't make it any more breathable, and you specifiy that it is a closed system. Air that is actually made to be perpetually breathable is another matter. I feel that it is a design of its own. And I do not believe that water-tight hatches are a thing that we have ever actually done. It is rather more difficult than you might expect, but mathematically-perfect crystal shapes can likely solve it without too much difficulty.
HA1 battery on the top filled with numerous cheap HA1s configured for indirect fire. Platform with the HA1s can be lowered into the hull and have a bay door close over it, sealing and protecting them from harm if necessary.
Umm, and these are watertight hatches? That cover an entire artillery battery? That is rather more difficult than screwed-closed doors for personnel. It could be merely a part of a design, but it would be the primary focus. And then we have the matter of suddenly knowing how to do mechanical lifts and doors.
Portholes (with hatches of course) on all sides of the ships accessible from the inner decks are equipped with cheap AS-HAC-1s for point defense. Numerous AS-HAC-1s on top deck for anti-air. Ship-of-the-line-style configuration for HC1-Es exists mostly on front and a bit on left/right to allow for up-close siege potential.
Portholes don't offer the range of motion for close-area defence, and the air defence is more lifts and hatches or just waterproof or what?
Ugh, I already deleted the bit on engines, but I figure that you are assigning about 100 times the engines of Protectors for a vehicle that is about a thousand tomes the mass. That equates to a tenth of the speed, but this is meant to be faster... So, engine upgrade from nowhere?
Wherever the Titan is, we shouldn't need a camp
A mobile kitchen an plumbing doesn't sound like much, but it sort of is.
Protector Garages - Has space for a handful of Protectors to deploy from the Titan. Mostly used for side-missions, smaller assaults, scouting, etc.
Well this should just be a Protector-sized ramp, and watertight door... But the complexities of a landing bay are easy to underestimate. I would say that this is probably not quite a whole revision, but it could pull a surprise...
Post by: Andres on July 05, 2017, 11:12:48 pm
The problem is with its size/Expense. Rather than aiming for a specific size and a specific Expense, rebrand it so that it has multiple sizes with multiple Expense levels. In other words, make AAA aethergems, AA aethergems, and A aethergems. Alternatively, you could say that it's giving our current line of magegems the ability to connect to/recharge via their connection to the aether.
It'll give us more flexibility in regards to our aethergems and making it so it's practically an upgrade to magegems rather than a new thing based on magegems should make it easier to do.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 05, 2017, 11:27:28 pm
I'll have it scale in charge rates too to make the expenses reasonable. So each Magegem goes from 0% to 100% in the same amount of time, but vary in actual rates due to varying capacities.
Something like that.
But the goal anyways was to basically make Awthergems upgraded Magegems. I'll see if I can make that a bit more clear if needed.
EDIT:
@Andres: I've made the requested changes.
@RAM: Case in point.
@Fallacy: There's always going to be an obtainable way to reverse a hard counter. It's just the way of things. If we spend tons of time on the ultimate wind magic counter, they will spend a revision, or at most a single design with extra benefits, to easily undo everything we've done.
Imagine if Moskurg used wind magic to make it so our artillery couldn't even fire. That'd be the ultimate counter for them, sure, but we could easily undo their counter with a single revision.
Post by: helmacon on July 06, 2017, 12:24:20 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 06, 2017, 12:27:36 am
One would definitely have to explicitly account for that in a design for any small flying creature.
Post by: Andres on July 06, 2017, 12:34:43 am
Its magic capacity is estimated to be roughly equal to that of an AA Magegem, or higher if possible.This bit still needs to be removed.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 06, 2017, 12:36:26 am
Post by: helmacon on July 06, 2017, 12:40:21 am
Post by: RAM on July 06, 2017, 12:58:20 am
Oh, and hey, does nobody care how we vote at all? Because it is very clear that multiple voting is currently accepted, and that seems sort of odd to me. I am inclined to go back to my one-and-two-halves thing, probably with self-voting, as it is difficult to compete with people who don't understand the problem with everyone voting for their own things.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 06, 2017, 01:03:11 am
We already discussed this and the consensus was that people can vote how they want, I believe.
Post by: Andres on July 06, 2017, 01:06:52 am
Quote
1 - AS-R2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502955#msg7502955): Andres
4 - The Mind of Madness (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502974#msg7502974): RAM, VoidSlayer, FallacyofUrist, helmacon
0 - Demondium (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502974#msg7502974):
1 - AS-LFV-2 "Titan" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502996#msg7502996): Chiefwaffles
0 - Weightite (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503014#msg7503014):
0 - Celestedemorte (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503014#msg7503014):
0 - Living magic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503014#msg7503014):
0 - AS-AMA "Manticore" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503319#msg7503319):
4 - Aethergem (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503415#msg7503415): Chiefwaffles, Kadzar, Andrea, Andres
0 - RAM-MAP-943 "Pashmad" Mobile Artillery Position (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503503#msg7503503):
Trader:
1 - Just give him Crystal Lances, Crystal Axes, and one of our many squad-destroying Wands of Fireball, if he can learn to use it: FallacyofUrist
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: helmacon on July 06, 2017, 01:32:42 am
Post by: RAM on July 06, 2017, 01:44:57 am
Quote
2 - AS-R2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502955#msg7502955): Andres, helmaconI still have doubts about the Manticore's speed, but you have convinced me that it might have potential to be fast enough.
4 - The Mind of Madness (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502974#msg7502974): RAM, VoidSlayer, FallacyofUrist, helmacon
0 - Demondium (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502974#msg7502974):
1 - AS-LFV-2 "Titan" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502996#msg7502996): Chiefwaffles
1 - Weightite (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503014#msg7503014): RAM
1 - Celestedemorte (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503014#msg7503014): RAM
1 - Living magic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503014#msg7503014): RAM
2 - AS-AMA "Manticore" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503319#msg7503319): helmacon, RAM
4 - Aethergem (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503415#msg7503415): Chiefwaffles, Kadzar, Andrea, Andres
1 - RAM-MAP-943 "Pashmad" Mobile Artillery Position (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503503#msg7503503): RAM
1 - Gemerators (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503704#msg7503704): RAM
1 - Summon large, dangerous plant (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503806#msg7503806): RAM
Trader:
1 - Just give him Crystal Lances, Crystal Axes, and one of our many squad-destroying Wands of Fireball, if he can learn to use it: FallacyofUrist
A reminder:
: Gemerators are like Aethergems but are dedicated magical providers rather than compromising their accumulation ability to be both generators and batteries. They should be functionally the same but would rely on existing gems to operate like replaceable recharges, which we have already been doing, but better at accumulating magic when storage is not required. And we have batteries already, so why compromise?
: Summon lagre, dangerous plant summons a kaiju. Now, I do not actually expect to get a kaiju, but the G.M has been extremely generous with giving us working designs when we ask for the ridiculous, so I am hopeful...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 06, 2017, 01:52:12 am
1.) Right now if we dedicated every single one of our mages to only operating HA1s, we can only operate up to a third of all our HA1s.
2.) Creating new magic and spells won't be as effective as they could, because every new mage-requiring design means less mages devoted to anything else.
3.) Aethergems can solve this problem. We will be able to operate magitech without using up (as many) apprentices. If Aethergems work as planned, then we have a ton of free apprentices and we have 3x as many operating HA1s. If they don't work out as great as they could, we still greatly reduce the amount of strain on our apprentices. We could reduce the crew requirement of the HA1 from 3 people to just 1.
4.) Thus, designing Aethergems means we will be able to field more Protectors, much more HA1s, more Restless trains, and more of any magic-related design we have.
5.) Aethergems get a bonus to Effectiveness (+1) that only it will get.
6.) Aethergems will help for future designs - the Manticore, the Titan, new ships, a flying vehicle, the AS-R2, and much much more in addition to its immediate benefits.
Post by: RAM on July 06, 2017, 01:58:26 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 06, 2017, 02:05:33 am
I'd like to point to this line in the Aethergem design:
Quote
The charge capacity of the Aethergems is the least important aspect. If we must sacrifice a component of Magegems to ensure proper expense, then we can sacrifice the charge capacity for the charge rate and expense.
The thing is about Aethergems, is that I'm envisioning them as an end-all to magical storage. So we can just put an Aethergem in a design and call it a day. Understand it's not meant as a long-term battery. Of course not.
It's meant as more of a... capacitor. So we can put a single AA Aethergem inside a AS-R1 and have it be able to power a shot between self-charging instead of requiring both an AA Aethergem and an AA Magegem, taking up twice the space and ever so slightly increasing expense/complexity.
So we can have power armor fit with Aethergems and not be forced to take clunky measures, lining it with Magegems when we could have just kept this current design of Aethergem and use a single A/AA Aethergem inside the power armor.
So we can have artillery pieces each with a single AA Aethergem allowing it to fire by itself without requiring us to invest more into also putting in Magegems. So we can put Aethergems in artillery and magitech in the Aethergem design, because it'd be harder to do if we had to do both Aethergems and Magegems.
C'moon, RAM. Of course the priority of Aethergems is power generation. It's not a stretch to even say they can hold power. They're an upgrade of Magegems, after all. They're what happens if you take a Magegem and add self-charging capabilities to it. I included this for a reason.
Vote for Aethergems, RAM. C'mooon.
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 06, 2017, 02:33:58 am
What generates magic and why can we be conduits. Is it the mind or the body or something else, something intangible. I do not know if the madness I found is the answer or just another thing waiting in the dark, but without life can magic function? What ARE these gems and crystals we make.
I.. in a fit of sanity thought maybe a compromise on the catgirl assassins? Make it a feline transformation upgrade to our anti mage squad and note that the snipers have a higher percentage of women.
Also instead of a Kaiju tree what about thousands of giant mushrooms to act as fortifications. Fungus can grow underground and then spring up suddenly when it fills with water. I had a working model that only ate two apprentices before it was put down.
Post by: RAM on July 06, 2017, 02:49:25 am
For most projects you will have a very specific capacity requirement: Enough to fire however many shots you want before going into a recovery cycle or reloading; Enough to jump-start the engines. Enough to summon a single Biollante... The recharging, meanwhile, will be a constant "as much as you can get".
A magem reload will hold more shots for a rifle than an Aethergem would have. The only advantage is that you can build it as a single unit without reloads and not have to meddle with it. Magems are better than Aethergems for rifle reloads. Gemerators are better than Aether gems for running an engine, you just need a small magem to hold a little extra juice for starting it up. The Biollante will require vast amounts of magic, you will want a big-old summoning formation with magems all over it. Once you have that, you will want as many Gemerators as possible. Using Aethergems instead, once you have enough to build the ritual, you then start accumulating extra storage capacity that you don't need and waste resources doing so. And it should be easy to have a charging station to recharge magems from a gemerator. The only situation in which separating them would be bad would be in extremely small situations where including both would be impractical and you are too isolated and minimally equipped to just bring a gemerator with you to recharge them.
Really, the only people who could conceivably be better off with Aethergems are the catgirl assassins...
Post by: helmacon on July 06, 2017, 05:32:46 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 06, 2017, 01:42:27 pm
I'm pretty baffled why you think the Manticore revision is possible and that you think an Aethergem revision is possible but you don't think we can fit Aethergems into existing devices in the design?
Worst case scenario we replace Magegems in existing Magegem-using designs with Aethergems, freeing up our mages.
Post by: Draignean on July 06, 2017, 01:52:59 pm
Anyhoo... While I like the mind of madness more on paper, I think it needs a wee bit of prepwork. I'm also not quite convinced it would make as large difference on the field.
Quote
2 - AS-R2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502955#msg7502955): Andres, helmacon
4 - The Mind of Madness (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502974#msg7502974): RAM, VoidSlayer, FallacyofUrist, helmacon
0 - Demondium (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502974#msg7502974):
1 - AS-LFV-2 "Titan" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502996#msg7502996): Chiefwaffles
1 - Weightite (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503014#msg7503014): RAM
1 - Celestedemorte (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503014#msg7503014): RAM
1 - Living magic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503014#msg7503014): RAM
2 - AS-AMA "Manticore" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503319#msg7503319): helmacon, RAM
5 - Aethergem (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503415#msg7503415): Chiefwaffles, Kadzar, Andrea, Andres, Draignean
1 - RAM-MAP-943 "Pashmad" Mobile Artillery Position (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503503#msg7503503): RAM
1 - Gemerators (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503704#msg7503704): RAM
1 - Summon large, dangerous plant (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503806#msg7503806): RAM
Trader:
1 - Just give him Crystal Lances, Crystal Axes, and one of our many squad-destroying Wands of Fireball, if he can learn to use it: FallacyofUrist
Post by: evictedSaint on July 06, 2017, 02:26:41 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 06, 2017, 03:41:45 pm
Even if we use fog as a base, wind won't work on it. If a wind spell is cast on it, the mind will strike the mage casting the wind spell.
It's much more useful than the titan, and to some degree more likely to succeed.
Please vote for it. We need to diversify, and now is the perfect time to do so.
Post by: RAM on July 06, 2017, 04:33:40 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 06, 2017, 05:21:27 pm
Post by: Draignean on July 06, 2017, 05:33:08 pm
The Titan has been properly dumped. But there is still the Aethergem. Which would not be a terrible design except that the Gemerator is purely superior. Please never vote for the popular choice just because it is popular. It means that you will never be free to choose what you actually want.
Well that's a wee bit condescending.
My vote goes to the Aethergem over the Gemerator for a couple reasons. The first, and least relevant, is that a tie needed to be broken. However, even without that factor, the Aethergems can be installed into all existing mage gem using devices without changing their function in any way or changing the design in any way. They are gem based magical capacitors- with the added benefit of auto-recharging. The Gemerator itself lacks capacitance, which means that some additional support structure, as noted in the design, must be created in order for the gemerator to run basically anything.
It's not that I think the Gemerator is a bad design, it's that I think the Aethergem is better suited to address the immediate problem with as few kinks as possible.
I still say we should work on summoning incorporeal monstrosities. Now is the time to work on a while new school of magic.
Honestly, my main qualm with it, and the reason I voted for Aethergems, was the lack of design specificity in terms of how it hunts, how intelligent it is, etc. With a bit more text in the box I could easily go for it.
Post by: Andres on July 06, 2017, 06:08:08 pm
Target expense is Expensive (though Cheap would be super duper nice.) Expense should be made somewhat easier thanks to the Crystalworks Mk. 2 and the fact that we make Magegems out of Crystal Glass now.This bit needs to be removed.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 06, 2017, 06:11:06 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 06, 2017, 06:50:45 pm
For once, we're actually making a spell for our mages. It has three main components.
One is creating a chunk of fog. Easy.
Two, the new part, is imbuing a malignant mind into the fog, making it the Mind. It's a very simple intelligence, simpler than a wasp, but it should still give us more experience with AI. It's like a wasp brain, except made of magical fog.
Three, another new part, is giving that mind the ability to attack other minds. It can't attack any mind unless it comes into contact with that mind... for instance, if a Moskurgian mage controls weather, and a Mind of Madness is within that spell, the Moskurgian mage projecting his mind into the weather will be struck by the Mind of Madness. We can manipulate minds already complexly, based off our falcons. Striking a mind should be simpler. The new part here is detecting a projecting mind. It's simple: a mage's projected mind should give off a magical presence, which we can detect magically.
With the use of fog, this is actually a relatively simple design, perhaps about as complicated as the Aethergem. It may have some issues, mainly because of the complexity of infusing a mind, even a simple one, into fog, but we do have two revisions. Hopefully we won't need to use either of them.
If this succeeds, we will be able to completely counter Mokurgian weather magic and divination magic, both of which rely on sending out a mind. Possibly, this may even counter their anti magic if it projects a mind also, but that's less certain.
This may be a hard counter, and as much as some of us hate counter chains, we have a high advantage right now, and if we neutralize Moskurg's own core spells, we may win this war shortly. Glory to Arstotzka. Finally, note that the Aethergem is not terribly useful on the field, and while it may develop to something useful, it won't be useful immediately, preventing us from pressing our advantage.
I propose that votes for the Mind of Madness should also count for this. People want the Mind of Madness, one way or another. After the Mind of Madness passes, we should also vote on which version we want.
Quote
2 - AS-R2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502955#msg7502955): Andres, helmacon
4 - The Mind of Madness (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502974#msg7502974): RAM, VoidSlayer, FallacyofUrist, helmacon
- ? VoidSlayer's version: ?
- ? Fallacy's version: ?
0 - Demondium (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502974#msg7502974):
1 - AS-LFV-2 "Titan" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7502996#msg7502996): Chiefwaffles
1 - Weightite (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503014#msg7503014): RAM
1 - Celestedemorte (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503014#msg7503014): RAM
1 - Living magic (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503014#msg7503014): RAM
2 - AS-AMA "Manticore" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503319#msg7503319): helmacon, RAM
5 - Aethergem (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503415#msg7503415): Chiefwaffles, Kadzar, Andrea, Andres, Draignean
1 - RAM-MAP-943 "Pashmad" Mobile Artillery Position (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503503#msg7503503): RAM
1 - Gemerators (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503704#msg7503704): RAM
1 - Summon large, dangerous plant (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7503806#msg7503806): RAM
Trader:
1 - Just give him Crystal Lances, Crystal Axes, and one of our many squad-destroying Wands of Fireball, if he can learn to use it: FallacyofUrist
Hopefully my more specific proposal will attract you over to something that can actually press our advantage.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 06, 2017, 07:05:09 pm
(EDIT: On second thought, I don't really care as much about this. As long as people don't do anything crazy like making their vote worth more COUGHRAMCOUGH I won't really object.)
With the use of fog, this is actually a relatively simple design, perhaps about as complicated as the Aethergem. It may have some issues, mainly because of the complexity of infusing a mind, even a simple one, into fog, but we do have two revisions. Hopefully we won't need to use either of them.How the hell is this a "relatively simple design"? That is some insane stretching.
We are making a living thing out of fog. We'll be lucky if we can even make it living, let alone be able to attack other minds. A living thing out of fog! Right now, we know how to:
A.) Make simple modifications to simple physical brains for basic training such as "us good, them bad".
B.) Summon copies of existing living things, such as wasps.
This does not "relatively easily" translate into making an intelligence, however simple it may be, out of fog then giving it the ability to somehow magically attack the minds of other magic users. (EDIT:) We could maybe do a theoretical-style "fog intelligence" design if we really wanted to, but now's the worst time for theoretical designs.
If this succeeds, we will be able to completely counter Mokurgian weather magic and divination magic, both of which rely on sending out a mind. Possibly, this may even counter their anti magic if it projects a mind also, but that's less certain.It will not completely counter Moskurger weather and divination magic.
I cover on this below too, but I will address it here.
Evicted will not let us, even if we roll three 6s on this design and devote multiple revisions to it, completely counter Moskurg's whole shtick.
This is the equivalent of the following:
Quote
Moskurg: I hit you with my wind attack!Except we will not be able to void Moskurg's magic in one turn, and even if we do, Moskurg will spend way less effort at undoing then we spent in doing it.
Arstotzka: Nuh-uh! I have a wind attack shield! I'm immune to wind attacks!
Moskurg: I hit you with my anti-shield wind attack!
This may be a hard counter, and as much as some of us hate counter chains, we have a high advantage right now, and if we neutralize Moskurg's own core spells, we may win this war shortly. Glory to Arstotzka. Finally, note that the Aethergem is not terribly useful on the field, and while it may develop to something useful, it won't be useful immediately, preventing us from pressing our advantage.1.) The Aethergem is useful immediately. It greatly increases the amount of magitech we can field by a lot. Again, right now if we devoted every single mage we had to manning HA1s, we'd only be manning a third of them. Every single new spell or piece of magitech will make this worse. We can pre-emptively stop this with the Aethergem.
2.) In addition to potentially tripling the amount of HA1s we can field as well as other magitech, the Aethergem is nearly vital for future designs, but see #1.
3.) Hard counters are just not a good idea. They're not.
Let me give you a rundown of what will happen:
1.) We spend a design and multiple revisions making this hard counter.
2.) Moskurg will spend their design and revision making something else actually helping them.
3.) If the hard counter works and if Moskurg's likely-non-hard-counter doesn't work, then we will win for exactly one combat phase.
4.) Moskurg will spend a revision undoing our design + revisions while they make their other revision.
Moskurg will essentially get a free design. All this so we can potentially counter their wind magic for one turn.
Furthermore, massive hard counters don't work.
What Moskurg did last combat phase was clearly an attempted hard counter, and they spent a design on it. Yet we still won using artillery. Our hard counter will not magically make their weather magic useless because Evicted cares about balance. It will, again, be giving Moskurg a free design.
Post by: RAM on July 06, 2017, 07:11:15 pm
That is fair, although you said yourself that you were influenced by a desire to break the tie. "Strategic" voting is one of these things that plagues voting systems. It bizarrely plagues preferential systems where it should be mostly a fallacy(Although political parties using voting recommendations in order to have a bargaining commodity even if they don't win anything is somewhat plausible.) and it is more prevalent in clearly "first past the post" systems where it can actually influence things directly. ... This is something that I may get a bit aggressive about, and I apologise for that. I endlessly want to rant about voting flaws and I can't imagine that many want to hear it. So sorry for overstating the issue.The Titan has been properly dumped. But there is still the Aethergem. Which would not be a terrible design except that the Gemerator is purely superior. Please never vote for the popular choice just because it is popular. It means that you will never be free to choose what you actually want.
Well that's a wee bit condescending.
However, even without that factor, the Aethergems can be installed into all existing mage gem using devices without changing their function in any way or changing the design in any way.This, however, I believe to be incorrect. The Gemerators ought to be perfectly capable of recharging magems. Thus, it is as compatible with the current system as the current system is. we just pass the magems onto gemerator-powered recharging circuits instead of apprentices. The aethergems on the other hand, hybridise. If they can achieve useful levels of recharging without losing effective storage capacity, then excellent. If, however, they have lower capacity than a magem, then they likely will not be compatible with our cannons, which require a certain level of power in order to fire, and the aethergems may not have the storage for a single shot. If that were the case, then we are back to recharging arrays for magems, but the recharging arrays are weaker because the powering device is less focused in its purpose. If, on the other hand, the aethergems do not lose any storage capacity, then we can only assume that their generating capacity is much lower that what the gemerators would have been, because they presumably need to make some sort of sacrifice to maintain dual functions. You can only fit so many circuits and spells into a gem before it runs out of space or magic, or explodes... So the aethergems lose you the extremely high-end generating capacities. Lots of times we have withnessed designs that suggest entire rooms of magems. Most of these would be entirely replaces with generators. If the generators were aethergems then they need more of them because storage is basically an insignificant issue and generation is the whole point. I am very confident that most uses where you would actually want to incorporate an aether gem into the design you are primarily seeking generation capacity, and such you will be wasting a massive amount of storage capacity that you never needed.
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 06, 2017, 07:16:33 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Oh to be so sheltered from the greater depths (or heights?) that I could think these things could so easily be explained. What the spell pulls is not some intelligence made from the things of this world, but something from outside, where the power we wield originates, for good or ill.
It is meant to be a somewhat new area of magic, not summoning existing living or non living things but instead that which should not be.
Post by: Draignean on July 06, 2017, 07:50:39 pm
That is fair, although you said yourself that you were influenced by a desire to break the tie. "Strategic" voting is one of these things that plagues voting systems. It bizarrely plagues preferential systems where it should be mostly a fallacy(Although political parties using voting recommendations in order to have a bargaining commodity even if they don't win anything is somewhat plausible.) and it is more prevalent in clearly "first past the post" systems where it can actually influence things directly. ... This is something that I may get a bit aggressive about, and I apologise for that. I endlessly want to rant about voting flaws and I can't imagine that many want to hear it. So sorry for overstating the issue.The Titan has been properly dumped. But there is still the Aethergem. Which would not be a terrible design except that the Gemerator is purely superior. Please never vote for the popular choice just because it is popular. It means that you will never be free to choose what you actually want.
Well that's a wee bit condescending.
It's okay, I just wanted you to realize how you sound, and how difficult it makes giving you a fair shake after the fact.
This, however, I believe to be incorrect. The Gemerators ought to be perfectly capable of recharging magems. Thus, it is as compatible with the current system as the current system is. we just pass the magems onto gemerator-powered recharging circuits instead of apprentices. The aethergems on the other hand, hybridise. If they can achieve useful levels of recharging without losing effective storage capacity, then excellent. If, however, they have lower capacity than a magem, then they likely will not be compatible with our cannons, which require a certain level of power in order to fire, and the aethergems may not have the storage for a single shot. If that were the case, then we are back to recharging arrays for magems, but the recharging arrays are weaker because the powering device is less focused in its purpose. If, on the other hand, the aethergems do not lose any storage capacity, then we can only assume that their generating capacity is much lower that what the gemerators would have been, because they presumably need to make some sort of sacrifice to maintain dual functions. You can only fit so many circuits and spells into a gem before it runs out of space or magic, or explodes... So the aethergems lose you the extremely high-end generating capacities. Lots of times we have withnessed designs that suggest entire rooms of magems. Most of these would be entirely replaces with generators. If the generators were aethergems then they need more of them because storage is basically an insignificant issue and generation is the whole point. I am very confident that most uses where you would actually want to incorporate an aether gem into the design you are primarily seeking generation capacity, and such you will be wasting a massive amount of storage capacity that you never needed.
I admit, I'm not sure whether our mage-gems are removed from their circuit structure when they're charged by the apprentices, which makes a small, but not insignificant difference in my calculations.
To me, the difference is one of scale and time.
Your generators (Sorry, I'm going to refuse to call the gemerators, the pun is too terrible :P), combined with the existing mage gems, I think would indeed be better suited to long term development of large vessels. Boats, tanks, perhaps even an aircraft would greatly benefit from a system of high-power generators + large capacitors instead of midline capacitor that are midline generators. It's important to note that I disagree with you on generators being able to entirely replace mage-gems. Most of our uses of magegems release relatively large amounts of power at once, (to power an artillery shell through the air, for instance), and that's something a generator can't do by itself. A truck with a diesel engine can take half-ton boulder and drive it from Denver to New York, but it can't fling it 100 meters without some method of storing that energy in the meantime. If I thought this war would last another thirty years, even twenty, I'd side with you. However, I don't think that's the case.
CF's recharging gems I think will find their best realization on smaller objects, such as improved rifles and powered armor- objects which are impractical to bring back to a generator frequently, but they'll suffice for powering the artillery. Increased capacitance on most designs lends itself well to strong alpha-strikes and periodic rally movements where the cannons burn through their extra energy with a greater rate of fire. Moreover, they're capable of being mounted into parts of design that are unreachable, allowing them to be mounted under superior armor. On that same note, the distribution of power generation throughout multiple gems increases the robustness of larger designs- a strike that would disable a generator might only disable a small portion of a well spaces network of aethergems.
Again, it's not that CF's design is somehow intrinsically filled with awesomesauce and yours is bad, it's that I think his has better prospects for ending this war within a short term.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Oh to be so sheltered from the greater depths (or heights?) that I could think these things could so easily be explained. What the spell pulls is not some intelligence made from the things of this world, but something from outside, where the power we wield originates, for good or ill.
It is meant to be a somewhat new area of magic, not summoning existing living or non living things but instead that which should not be.
And now I'm really hung.
On the one hand there's a practical tech that could help deploy crushing artillery force and end the war, and on the other hand... Cthulhu.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 06, 2017, 07:55:14 pm
Question: Does the Aethergem include a means of using it to power a HA1? Will it even generate enough power to do so, repeatedly?
If the Mind of Madness won't stop Moskurgian magic completely, that's what our revisions are for. If we have two of them, we could likely stop Moskurg's magic in its tracks. I think we can win this game if we go this route.
Balance, balance. Odds are it'll work, but Evicted will make it Very Expensive. That's okay, we can send Myark to the desert to use it.
Moskurg's likely non-hard-counter... I think they're going to complete their Winds of Ruin to neutralize our artillery first. If we have the mind of madness, we can preemptively counter their upgrade.
What does it matter if we get into a counter chain? We're currently superior, if Moskurg spends all their time countering us, we'll take their homeland in the meantime. Also, I don't think one revision will suffice to kill the Mind of Madness, because balance.
Their attempted hard counter would have worked if we didn't have improved-ranged shells.
Post by: helmacon on July 06, 2017, 07:57:29 pm
Edit: I should also mention that we are already winning the artillery game. More artillery would be nice, but not a game changer. Furthermore, if they counter our artillery with the wind spell, more artillery won't make a difference.
Post by: RAM on July 06, 2017, 08:03:18 pm
A rifle has a shot cost of 1, it can fire 10 times with a M and that M can be recharged in a day with a G. An E instead would fire 9 times quickly, then again in a few minute's time. The magem is basically better because you want more volley fire and can carry a spare M if we need more shots. The E does offer a higher rate of fire if you insit upon not recharging and don't mind waiting twenty minutes, but the G does recharging better if you can afford to get to a recharger, which ought to be pretty convenient unless you are off in the boonies where you don't want to be shooting dozens of times anyway because you will give away your position and we can send an apprentice along, at admittedly great personal risk...
A big cannon has a shot cost of ten, the E simply doesn't work here. You need your recharging station and magem regardless, and the G is better at that.
A slightly smaller cannon has a shot cost of 9, the E can fire once per hour, the G+M can fire a little faster than that. And you need multiples regardless if you want to fire at a decent pace.
An Engine requires a capacity of ten and a cost of 100 per minute. That can be one M and 60 G, or 67 A.
Except for the rifle example the G is strictly superior. In the case of very small things it is a matter of magem availability(Aethergems are likely more complex and thus less available than equivalent magems, but that is pure speculation) and charging station difficulty(Which again, is speculation, but it is just a gemerator, which is a gem, thus not likely to be cumbersome, and a circuit, again, not likely to be cumbersome.). This assumes that the aethergem is very nearly equal to magems in capacity and gemerators in generation. That is a very unlikely scenario. It seems, in my personal opinion, more likely that the gemerator would have about twice the generating capacity and the aethergem will have equal storage capacity. So a 10 capacity and 5 generation per hour using the initial examples' format. Whic is nice, but really drives home how well the gemerators would work when generation is needed well in excess of capacity.
Hey! You can't just change the rules on a whim like that! Designs should be voted as-is. It's very unfair to try to change the rules just so you can get what you want.troll confirmed, or at least a complete lack of self-awareness. The number of times Chiefwaffles has changed a design after people have already voted for it is ridiculous. If "you have already voted for it but it is different now but *I* think it is better like this so of course you still want to vote for it" is fair game but "These designs are extremely similar, so people who vote for one reasonably want to vote for the other over the alternatives" is not then I am going back to voting with big numbers. If there iszero consistency then I can live with that, but you don't want to see where that ends...
It is not insane to think that extrapolating "summon a mobile mental effect" from "Summon things with mental abilities" and "mental effect" is relatively simple in a world where extrapolating "animal grows big" from "plant grows quickly" is relatively simple...With the use of fog, this is actually a relatively simple design, perhaps about as complicated as the Aethergem. It may have some issues, mainly because of the complexity of infusing a mind, even a simple one, into fog, but we do have two revisions. Hopefully we won't need to use either of them.How the hell is this a "relatively simple design"? That is some insane stretching.
We are making a living thing out of fog. We'll be lucky if we can even make it living, let alone be able to attack other minds. A living thing out of fog! Right now, we know how to:B is untrue. They are not copies. The fire wasps demonstrated that we can modify our summons and that we can summon things that do not exist.
A.) Make simple modifications to simple physical brains for basic training such as "us good, them bad".
B.) Summon copies of existing living things, such as wasps.
A is also untrue, we modified minds. The mind and the brain are different things. It appears that the mind is a product of the brain, although you will get disagreements on that point. However, the mind and the brain are not the same thing and with magic flying around their properties do not need to be solely matched to one another.
This does not "relatively easily" translate into making an intelligence, however simple it may be, out of fog then giving it the ability to somehow magically attack the minds of other magic users.It doesn't need much intelligence, it just needs to detect minds and attack them, which is what the wasps do. It doesn't even need to attack, it can just naturally radiate a scrambled taming effect.
We could maybe do a theoretical-style "fog intelligence" design if we really wanted to, but now's the worst time for theoretical designs.Now is an EXCELLENT time for theory. We have the time to pull it off and they may do something to turn around the current situation. We can go for a quick win, and maybe fail, and be back to the struggle, or come out with advanced theories and get a secure win further down the line.
But if you want a living spell option, then I provided one...
This is a lie. Evicted let their antimagic completely negate our conjuration, all of our starter "spells" and everything derived from them. Evicted then let them make temperature-proof metal that radiated pleasant temperatures, thus completely negating all of our starter "wand" and everything derived from it. We, after a VERY long time, PARTIALLY countered their hard-counter to conjuration. Their hard-counter to fireball and frost towers is alive and well and seems to be without any easy counter. You want maybe to do rust magic? New schools are easy! Just remember the plants.If this succeeds, we will be able to completely counter Mokurgian weather magic and divination magic, both of which rely on sending out a mind. Possibly, this may even counter their anti magic if it projects a mind also, but that's less certain.It will not completely counter Moskurger weather and divination magic.
I cover on this below too, but I will address it here.
Evicted will not let us, even if we roll three 6s on this design and devote multiple revisions to it, completely counter Moskurg's whole shtick.
Yopur entire argument os COMPLETELY without foundation. You are MAKING-UP EVERYTHING!
This is the equivalent of the following:A: I hit you with my fire attack!QuoteMoskurg: I hit you with my wind attack!Except we will not be able to void Moskurg's magic in one turn, and even if we do, Moskurg will spend way less effort at undoing then we spent in doing it.
Arstotzka: Nuh-uh! I have a wind attack shield! I'm immune to wind attacks!
Moskurg: I hit you with my anti-shield wind attack!
M: Nuh-uh! I have a literal actual practical temperature-proof shield! I'm immune to fire attacks!
A: I hit you with my foul language!
Or perhaps I should just suggest that you are trying to make armoured cars that are a hard-counter to everything that Moskurg can throw at them. I am sure that I have seem various synonyms of "completely immune" being thrown about in the titan and protector's favour. Honestly, there is zero credibility to be found here.
1.) The Aethergem is useful immediately.Assuming that it still has the required capacity.
It greatly increases the amount of magitech we can field by a lot.Assuming that it has the generation ability to do so.
Again, right now if we devoted every single mage we had to manning HA1s, we'd only be manning a third of them.This is true, and it is why the Aethergems are not bad. Though they are still inferior to the alternatives.
Every single new spell or piece of magitech will make this worse.We could become less reliant upon gems, I mean, it is completely ridiculous to imagine it in reality, but in WandRWorld sound attacks will shatter crystals, gems included. We need some alternatives to all these crystals.
3.) Hard counters are just not a good idea. They're not.You are simply wrong here. They keep hard-countering us. It keeps working for them. You are just, simply, wrong.
Waaaay too many assumptions about how easy everything is. Plenty of hard counters are well beyond the scope of revision to fix. Please provide us with the revision that will get frost towers AND fireballs working against adamantine. It hard-countered both, lets see the simple revision to undo it!
Let me give you a rundown of what will happen:
1.) We spend a design and multiple revisions making this hard counter.
2.) Moskurg will spend their design and revision making something else actually helping them.
3.) If the hard counter works and if Moskurg's likely-non-hard-counter doesn't work, then we will win for exactly one combat phase.
4.) Moskurg will spend a revision undoing our design + revisions while they make their other revision.
Furthermore, massive hard counters don't work.Blatantly untrue. They put a design into using wind to resist, not hard-counter, our bullets. And it worked. We are currently outranged by the enemy, they can attack us with impunity. We could spend a design on weightite to overcome it, but that is a design. A revision of "shoot more good" will not overcome this new wind magic.
What Moskurg did last combat phase was clearly an attempted hard counter, and they spent a design on it. Yet we still won using artillery. Our hard counter will not magically make their weather magic useless because Evicted cares about balance. It will, again, be giving Moskurg a free design.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 06, 2017, 08:17:53 pm
It's summoning an omnipresent fogmind able to drive wizards that cast spells in it crazy and to magically detect when wizards cast spells. When all we know how to do is A.) Make fog and B.) Make copies of already living creatures (with some simple modifications like "tons of fire") and C.) Simple modifications to simple existing physical minds.
Oh, and if it's made of fog, can't it be blown away? Because right now our method of making our mist relatively resistant to their wind is continuously generating it, which wouldn't exactly work that well if we're making a mind out of fog. And before you say "but it'd drive the wizard mad!" can't they just summon wind in front of it which then just blows it away?
I recognize the need to man all our artillery. That would be nice, except Moskurg's going to complete their artillery counter next turn, and then where will we be? Mind of Madness will stop that artillery counter and let us push forwards.Not if we fix the Protector, which uses canons. And it's going to be exponentially harder for them to increase the effectiveness of the spell.
Question: Does the Aethergem include a means of using it to power a HA1? Will it even generate enough power to do so, repeatedly?
"Will it even generate enough power to do so, repeatedly?"
This is a matter of time. The Aethergem is not a battery. It generates power. It will generate enough power. Worst case scenario (other than really awful rolls of course) is that a practical amount of Aethergems isn't enough to power the HA1.
In which case, we still decrease the amount of apprentices it needs to man a HA1, still greatly increasing the number of artillery pieces we can field.
And at this moment our tech uses circuits, which are extraordinarily simple to power via Magegems, and thus Aethergems. HA1 emplacements don't explicitly have slots for Magegems, but we can very easily jury-rig a way to use Aethergems with HA1s, even if that means gluing them to the barrel.
But we also have lots of tech already using Magegems, and thus lots of tech which we can easily use Aethergems into without any existing consideration. The Crystalclad, for example, is already suffering from a lack of apprentices where not every ship is getting enough apprentices.
The Protector uses Magegems.
Crystalworks uses Magegems.
AS-R1 uses Magegems.
etc.
If the Mind of Madness won't stop Moskurgian magic completely, that's what our revisions are for. If we have two of them, we could likely stop Moskurg's magic in its tracks. I think we can win this game if we go this route.Honestly, some small part of me wants Mind of Madness to win so I can be proven right. But I'd rather have Aethergems win in the first place so I don't have to be proven right. Because it seems like I just can't convince you any other way.
Since 1.) The Protector is broken and needs a single revision to fix it. 2.) The Protector and AS-R1 are nearly useless close-up (where the Protector should be) because of their anti-magic; we can revise anti-magic resistance in.
And it's always a good idea to not have to use Revisions to fix a Design.
Balance, balance. Odds are it'll work, but Evicted will make it Very Expensive. That's okay, we can send Myark to the desert to use it.See top part in response to the quote before this one.
Moskurg's likely non-hard-counter... I think they're going to complete their Winds of Ruin to neutralize our artillery first. If we have the mind of madness, we can preemptively counter their upgrade.See above. It's going to get exponentially harder for Moskurg to counter our artillery with that spell.
Decreasing the velocity of shells mid-flight to reduce their range is one thing. But as they try to get closer our shells will have more and more velocity, making it even harder for them to counter it. They're never going to completely counter our artillery.
And if they did, we have revisions too.
What does it matter if we get into a counter chain? We're currently superior, if Moskurg spends all their time countering us, we'll take their homeland in the meantime. Also, I don't think one revision will suffice to kill the Mind of Madness, because balance.I mentioned why it was bad multiple times, actually.
In a counter chain, Moskurg wins.
Why? Because we spend a design to make it, and they can spend a revision to undo it. We lose a design, they lose a revision; who wins?
And watch!
Fake Moskurger Revision: Mindshield
Our mages work, using our mind magic that we have extensive experience in, to collectively shield their minds from outside attacks.
This is a revision of our current mindmagic to simply make it work with multiple people at once. It sacrifices things like mind-reading to simply make minds link, making them stronger against attack.
Fake Moskurger Revision: Fans
Our
We can use this to blow away their mist easily without exposing our minds.
Fake Moskurger Revision: Mindshield Variant B
We use our experience in mind magic to simply revise a variant of Read Mind to "Strengthen Mind", allowing one to resist attacks.
And so on.
(In response to ninja post)
RAM, remember how I said you constantly make up things?
It's somehow getting even more blatant.
EDIT: After making the mistake of skimming through some of RAM's post:
Their hard counters haven't worked. Notice how we're still winning via artillery even though they spent a design and revision on an artillery hard counter? And notice how we haven't even bothered to try undoing their frost tower hard counter.
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 06, 2017, 08:32:11 pm
Quote
The Mind of Madness
A malignant incorporeal supernatural intelligence is summoned to the battlefield to assault those foolish enough to project their minds outwards. Any attempt to control or perceive at a distance with magic and the mind will result in an assault on the senses sure to drive the wizard mad.[/spoiler]
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 06, 2017, 08:36:56 pm
Because Fallacy's is the easier version. It's just that it still wouldn't work. Yours is just... impossible. Right now the extent of our knowledge in the area is creating an extremely simple physical intelligence. And we aren't even creating the mind - we're just copying nature.
And you want to make an intelligence capable of magically (no idea how to do that) driving others insane (we have zero spells or knowledge remotely related to this) which is also incorporeal (we have zero clue how to do this.)
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 06, 2017, 08:39:08 pm
Two. Too late! We create the Mind of Madness directly in the storm, they're attacked before they set up the fan. Also, good luck projecting wind that far into the sky using a device on the ground.
Three. Same as one.
Also... if they do counter it next turn, we'll have compensated for that by making our Frost Towers work again. It doesn't matter if they counter it as long as we act first. If they're reacting to us, we'll continually have the advantage.
Post by: helmacon on July 06, 2017, 08:42:27 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 06, 2017, 08:45:19 pm
@Fallacy's last line: Actually, they'll have the advantage. They'll still have a free design next turn. And while we're designing this very temporary hard counter (if it even works), Moskurg will be making their own design as well.
Post by: helmacon on July 06, 2017, 09:02:37 pm
Post by: RAM on July 06, 2017, 10:04:44 pm
Why is anyone still trying to convince this person? Their arguments are completely lacking in any evidence, reasoning, or even compromise. They are not trying to achieve any semblance of accuracy or balance, they are just trying to verbally beat you into submission so that it looks like you agree with them.
It's... not summoning ghost wasps.Was this ever relevant? The ghost wasp thing was speculation.
It's summoning an omnipresent fogmind able to drive wizards that cast spells in it crazy and to magically detect when wizards cast spells. When all we know how to do is A.) Make fog and B.) Make copies of already living creatures (with some simple modifications like "tons of fire") and C.) Simple modifications to simple existing physical minds.- Fog is one variant. In my mind the lesser variant because fog is vulnerable to wind. The other option is an admittedly ambitious incorporeal entity.
- Driving wizards crazy is the goal. Much like antimagic immunity and perpetually breathable air was the goal of Protectors, except this time it is less ridiculously overambitious. Does anyone else actually read Chiefwaffles' designs? All it needs to do is reduce their casting effectiveness. It doesn't take long for artillery to make a mess, so it only needs to cause delays and interruptions. A bit of mental static ought to suffice.
- It needs to occupy the space that the enemy do. Wasps can do that. It is somewhat difficult to detect things when you cannot be detected, but I don't see any issue with it being visible so that ought to be trivial.
- They still obsess over "copies of mundane things". Firewasps were a new variant. We can clearly expand beyond that. Firewasps were, what, our first ever revision? And we easily made something that has never existed? We can do much more. And "minds (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mind)" are not physical. Oh, wait, my mistake, the context of "they were one of our greatest minds" refers to a whole person, and thus is physical, but that context is not relevant. Just try to find any hint at all anywhere that there is anything physical about the term "mind" used in describing our hawk-taming spell. Sure, we can infer that the brain might have been altered, but with magic, that is not necessarily true. All this to try to pretend that our taming spell gives us experience in making naturally-occurring giant birds.
Yes, the protector relies upon cannons, so a hard counter to them would nullify it. Well, not completely, it could still move pitifully small groups of infantry around to use their hard-countered rifles... Or they could come up with yet another hard counter to crystals because it wasn't enough the last time...I recognize the need to man all our artillery. That would be nice, except Moskurg's going to complete their artillery counter next turn, and then where will we be? Mind of Madness will stop that artillery counter and let us push forwards.Not if we fix the Protector, which uses canons. And it's going to be exponentially harder for them to increase the effectiveness of the spell.
Personally, I feel that recharging a magem in an hour would be optimistic, a day would be pessimistic, a week would be something that we ought to be prepared for, five minutes would be a thousand birthdays at once, and "enough to maintain a third of our current rate of fire" would be something that we can potentially hope for, but really shouldn't. So, by my own admittedly humble assessment, they will not do more than trivially reduce the number of apprentices. And they will need to be swapped out over and over again in order to maintain decent rates of fire, which mean we may as well use magems and some separate generator. So, while technically true, the above statement is colossally missing the point. They will generate enough power, but may require reworking the cannons to get enough of gems into it to fire, because aethergem might have less capacity than magems. And it may take too long to be practical.Question: Does the Aethergem include a means of using it to power a HA1? Will it even generate enough power to do so, repeatedly?"Will it even generate enough power to do so, repeatedly?"
This is a matter of time. The Aethergem is not a battery. It generates power. It will generate enough power. Worst case scenario (other than really awful rolls of course) is that a practical amount of Aethergems isn't enough to power the HA1.
In which case, we still decrease the amount of apprentices it needs to man a HA1, still greatly increasing the number of artillery pieces we can field.
So to answer the question that you meant to ask of "Will these maintain a practical rate of fire with no other power source?", the answer is "we don't know, but probably not on the first attempt, wait and see how manyt revisions we need to burn to get it working to specifications"...
And at this moment our tech uses circuits, which are extraordinarily simple to power via Magegems, and thus Aethergems. HA1 emplacements don't explicitly have slots for Magegems, but we can very easily jury-rig a way to use Aethergems with HA1s, even if that means gluing them to the barrel.Pkay, just to be clear, gluing them to the barrel won't work, but that was just a figure of speech? But the need of circuits to make use of magems reinforces the irrelevance of whether the battery and generator are the same unit or split into separate units so that we can have dedicated storage and generation and thus change the ratios without making new revisions to do so. Unless we want to upgrade both simultaneously as one design? But that really isn't a thing for reasons I hopefully won't need to point out.
But we also have lots of tech already using Magegems, and thus lots of tech which we can easily use Aethergems into without any existing consideration.Assumng that Aethergems have the same performance. If the same number of aethergems as were formerly magems do not have the power to fire a single shot, then it is not compatible. If they do not have enough generation ability in the likely small numbers that are currently employed as magems, then they are not an appreciable upgrade. There are lots of ways in which it could require an extensive rework to get anything out of them.
"My design is broken, just spend a revision to fix it" "Spending revisions to fix designs is bad, for vague reasons that I am not going into but are very real so long as they don't apply to me"If the Mind of Madness won't stop Moskurgian magic completely, that's what our revisions are for. If we have two of them, we could likely stop Moskurg's magic in its tracks. I think we can win this game if we go this route.Honestly, some small part of me wants Mind of Madness to win so I can be proven right. But I'd rather have Aethergems win in the first place so I don't have to be proven right. Because it seems like I just can't convince you any other way.
Since 1.) The Protector is broken and needs a single revision to fix it. 2.) The Protector and AS-R1 are nearly useless close-up (where the Protector should be) because of their anti-magic; we can revise anti-magic resistance in.
And it's always a good idea to not have to use Revisions to fix a Design.
And really, does anyone here have the idiocy to honestly believe that antimagic resistance is a revision? No, we are not going to get our antimagic resistance from a specific process in a static facility that produces permanent materials into a small, complex, contraption that generates large numbers of explosions in the field with a revision. That is ridiculous. It is a design, probably one with good rolls, to completely nullify the effects of their antimagic upon our active spells(But you said hard counters were bad?!?!?). As a small component of a revision that also adds caterpillar tracks(which ARE ridiculous given the technology level we are dealing with, but I accept that the G.M. disagrees and it is their call.) along with modern transmission and suspension. If our plan for this turn includes that revision, then give up now.
I really don't get the thought here, but I am inclined to agree that if it works, and we do have two revisions to burn on it, that we win. But it does seem sort of cheap...Balance, balance. Odds are it'll work, but Evicted will make it Very Expensive. That's okay, we can send Myark to the desert to use it.See top part in response to the quote before this one.
Yes, they would need a "lucky hail" spell that has the artillery get deflected by hailstones enough to miss. They would really need something dynamic to just endlessly perfect the spell. Not like we didn't go the hard-yards refining our fireball spell into something that would let an apprentice fry a whole squad.Moskurg's likely non-hard-counter... I think they're going to complete their Winds of Ruin to neutralize our artillery first. If we have the mind of madness, we can preemptively counter their upgrade.See above. It's going to get exponentially harder for Moskurg to counter our artillery with that spell.
And you were wrong multiple times. which is what happens when you realise that you can't argue with reason and try to just shout people down.What does it matter if we get into a counter chain? We're currently superior, if Moskurg spends all their time countering us, we'll take their homeland in the meantime. Also, I don't think one revision will suffice to kill the Mind of Madness, because balance.I mentioned why it was bad multiple times, actually.
In a counter chain, Moskurg wins.Oh, wonderful! An effect is driving us insane when we extend our minds beyond ourselves, let counter it with a spell to extend our minds beyond ourselves!!! Even if it worked, they would need to maintain it, which would be expensive, and thus they would fail and the artillery would get through in the downtime.
Why? Because we spend a design to make it, and they can spend a revision to undo it. We lose a design, they lose a revision; who wins?
And watch!
Fake Moskurger Revision: Mindshield
Our mages work, using our mind magic that we have extensive experience in, to collectively shield their minds from outside attacks.
Fake Moskurger Revision: FansAssuming that we use the mist version. The incorporeal version is better.
Ourstupid acrobatHeir has figured out another mundane use of our magic - fans! We simply use wind magic amplified by a device to make giant streams of air from a distance! It's merely an enchanted piece ofour stupid unthermodynamic metaladamantium!
We can use this to blow away their mist easily without exposing our minds.
Fake Moskurger Revision: Mindshield Variant BPermanently?
We use our experience in mind magic to simply revise a variant of Read Mind to "Strengthen Mind", allowing one to resist attacks.
And so on.And so on...
RAM, remember how I said you constantly make up things?Has anyone noticed that they have never once justified this statement? Yes, really blatant, so blatant that it leaves no trace...
It's somehow getting even more blatant.
EDIT: After making the mistake of skimming through some of RAM's post:WHAT artillery hard counter? They blew wind at artillery shells. How is wind versus metal "hard" from Team Wind? It was only ever going to deflect, and some shells were always going to get through it. Is there any actual evidence that it was ever intended as a hard counter? Not to the people who are not looking at the enemy thread at least... But hey, we don't have to make up stories about hard counters that don't exist, we can just pretend like "we have yet to figure out and design by which we can achieve this" is the same as "we could have easily fixed it any time we liked, with a simple revision, we just didn't feel the need to restore the thing that single-handedly kept us in the war for several turns and would very obvious be more effective at greater altitudes". Lets just revise up an antimagic charm with an "off"switch on it. We press the switch, and their adamantine turns into cuttlefish!
Their hard counters haven't worked. Notice how we're still winning via artillery even though they spent a design and revision on an artillery hard counter? And notice how we haven't even bothered to try undoing their frost tower hard counter.
Post by: helmacon on July 06, 2017, 10:14:35 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 06, 2017, 10:25:19 pm
I'm actually convinced at this point that you seemingly oppose everything I type on principle. It feels like whenever I post anything in this thread it's only a matter of time before RAM comes to make up more stuff trying to "counter" it.
The problem is that I feel almost obligated to show why the stuff you post is blatantly false. But that's at the cost of my time and the general state of the thread. Sure, most people can probably see right through your stuff, but there's always that miniscule chance that someone may have their opinion shifted by your baseless assumptions.
I'm fine with arguing/discussing this kind of stuff with other people, but really. Other people don't just make up stuff to counter every single sentence of what feels like every post I make. Like for a recent example, I disagree with Fallacy, but at least he makes an effort to actually support his arguments.
You, on the other hand...
Well, let's use an example from your post.
Quote from: RAM
"My design is broken, just spend a revision to fix it" "Spending revisions to fix designs is bad, for vague reasons that I am not going into but are very real so long as they don't apply to me"When anyone can tell this is, as always, blatantly untrue. Like, if you actually read the supposed "hypocrisy" I said, which is:
Quote from: Chiefwaffles
And it's always a good idea to not have to use Revisions to fix a Design.
Quote from: Chiefwaffles
Not if we fix the Protector, which uses canons. And it's going to be exponentially harder for them to increase the effectiveness of the spell.Note how, unlike what RAM pretends it to be, this statements work together.
Using revisions to fix a design is unavoidable. We generally shouldn't make designs with the intention of also using revisions that turn to fix the design. It's always a good idea to not have to use a revision to fix a design is true - we shouldn't intentionally put ourselves in situations where we have to use a revision to fix something.
But the Protector is buggy only because of a poor bug roll. We had a [3-1] for the bug roll, which is mostly just bad luck.
Using revisions to fix designs is fine, but in most cases, we shouldn't intentionally put ourselves in situations where we have to do so. Either RAM conveniently ignored this, or he just doesn't understand this.
And for another example, let's take another look at your post:
Quote from: RAM
Personally, I feel that recharging a magem in an hour would be optimistic, a day would be pessimistic, a week would be something that we ought to be prepared for, five minutes would be a thousand birthdays at once, and "enough to maintain a third of our current rate of fire" would be something that we can potentially hope for, but really shouldn't.Note how RAM is using this as evidence, yet it's literally just baseless assumptions. And I mean "baseless". There is no base to this statement. You're just saying "Well, I bet this is going to be bad, so therefore I'm right at saying it's bad!" like in nearly every argument you've made recently.
Also in response to the "A mist cloud would likely be blown away":
Nope.
See our "channeling mist" spell which explicitly works against wind by being continuously generated, which is the same thing a Tower of Mist would be doing. Actually, I just know you'll say "NUH-UH" then make up another thing saying that technically it doesn't work. But let me pre-emptively prove you wrong:
Obscuring Mist: Cloaks a squad in a fog cloud, hiding their numbers and equipment, and making them harder to hit at range.
Variant (Channeled Fog): A denser form of Obscuring mist, continuously generated.
Revision: Channeled Fog [5]And I don't believe they've ever actually countered this. It's just not particularly useful. But even if I missed something and it's not viable because of wind (if you do want to say this, please bring evidence for once), do you know how we can fix that? More mist. Do you know what makes a lot more mist? Towers of Mist.
Rather than just casting a cloud of mist and moving it about at will, our Mages have learned how to continuously conjure the fog. This means the cloud will grow larger and larger the longer they stand still, and moving will leave a trail of fog. This leaves more ambiguity as to how many men are hidden in the mist, and natural wind can't dispell the fog quickly enough to leave the men uncovered. Only time will tell if the Moskurg's control of the weather will be enough to dispell our cover.
Post by: evictedSaint on July 06, 2017, 10:53:31 pm
As it turns out, the hampsterwheel was entirely unnecessary to Bjorn's design.
Aethergems, relying much on the same principle as anti-magic gems, can pull magical energy from the aether (we think) and store the accumulated magic within itself.
To call it a "gem" is a bit of a misnomer; it's actually standard glass magegem with a simple bit of scrollwork hooked up to an anti-magic gem, all wired together with a bit of crystal power conduits. The entire contraption is about as long as a mans forearm and weighs maybe five pounds.
The aethergem comes in three sizes; A being the largest, AA slightly smaller, and AAA being the smallest, with corresponding expense levels. An A gem can reach full capacity in ten minutes, an AA in five minutes, and an AAA in just under a minute - it's the same amount of energy per minute, but the smaller size of the AAA means it just fills quicker.
The additional circuitry doesn't increase cost, nor does the anti-magic gem make magical casting impossible. The only downside is that if damaged the aethergem will explode rather violently, but the contraption is pretty solid and short of being smashed with a rock it won't break.
This incredible source of free magical energy, which should allow non-mages to draw magic from the aether (again, where we think it comes from), took the entirety of the design phase to produce. The increased size and weight means we can't simply replace all our existing magegems with them right away. Cheap - Very Expensive.
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 06, 2017, 11:08:56 pm
The HA1 is upgraded to use Aethergems in both firing the cannon and charging the various shell weapons. A simple sliding switch completes the circuit once the gems are charged, allow the operator as good control as an apprentice at firing the weapon. Completely eliminates the need for wizards or apprentices in firing this cannon.
A single crew is expected to work on two cannons at a time due to the 10 minute recharge rate.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 06, 2017, 11:39:38 pm
Honestly, I kind of like the explosive effect. It's just cool. It feels like in every game ever where the enemies have an exposed weak point. Like Fusion Cores in Fallout. But we, being smart, won't have exposed weak points!
But how do we want to play this out in terms of revisions?
We have 2 revisions. Here are the obvious ones I can think of right now:
1.) Fixing the Protector - we can probably reasonably fix the transmission and add treads, or at least give it more durable wheels, in one revision. Bonus is easily adding Magegems.
2.) Anti-magic resistance - The thing about this one is that right now, it's not a huge problem. The AS-R1's rate of fire makes it impracticable at ranges where we'd need AM Resistance, and the Protector, according to evicted, breaks down before it gets into anti-magic range.
3.) Fitting the Aethergem - We can fit a lot of things into a lot of designs at once, but we still need a revision to do it.
I think we can do more than just Aethergems for #3, though. Behold!
Revision: Arstotzkan Equipment Update
With our nonstop innovating these past years, we've left some designs with obsolete and inefficient technology. We aim to fix that!
This revision is primarily things like very minor tweaks to designs and adding things to existing designs, which should prove easy! For the reader's convenience, we've defining the individual tweaks, then listing the designs incorporating them.
Resistive Layering - Made easy by the Crystalworks Mk. 2, we aim to incorporate our newfound resistive layering tech to make the affected design immune to lightning. High priority. (But should be very easy to do, as it's essentially just flipping a few switches in the Mk.2 CW)
Aethergem Fitting - We incorporate slots for Aethergems in the design. The Aethergems are protected by a crystal glass plate that can be slid (or rotated inwards) to reveal the gem, while the crystal glass allows seeing the charge level. The Aethergems of course will be linked to the circuitry of the weapon, and the number+size varies depending on the design. High priority.
Internal Detonation Engine Refitting - We replace the steam engine in an existing design with the Internal Detonation Engine. High priority.
Now for the affected designs!
AS-HA1 - Resistive layering, Aethergem fitting. There should be an Expensive variant with as many AA Aethergems as possible fitted in order require one, or even zero, apprentices, and the rest will be fitted with AAA Aethergems to reduce the apprentice count preferably to 2 instead of 3. The HA1 should also be able to charge the Magegems inside explosive shells, though if the crew is operating without any apprentices, this will obviously increase the time required to fire.
We should be able to operate every single AS-HA1 using Aethergems, even the AAA ones. But some (especially the AAA ones) will of course not be as fast as they could be with apprentices. And the apprentice requirement for one to run at max efficiency is of course reduced greatly.
AS-HAC-1 - Aethergem fitting in a style similar to the AS-HA1. The AA Aethergem variant should be able to be used for extended periods of time without an apprentice, and the AAA Aethergem preferably hold enough charge for 1-2 shots before waiting to recharge.
Crystalclad - IDE Refitting, Resistive Layering, Aethergem Refitting. The Aethergems should be like the AS-HA1, with an Expensive CC variant using AA Aethergems, and a Cheap one using AAA ones. General goal is to decrease apprentice requirement to 0 or 1.
Protector - Resistive Layering, Aethergem Refitting. Ideal goal is for Protector to reliably be able to fire its cannons or be moving (not at the same time of course) on the Aethergems. At least for a respectable period of time.
TL;DR: Add some various tweaks to our existing designs. Shouldn't be hard as all these tweaks are basically just retrofitting newer tech onto older designs.
Let me know if you think there's a part of this that's too ambitious. But I like it. And also let me know if I'm missing any other tweaks/designs that need to be retrofitted.
Also Evicted, you better not be planning for some reveal where we're drawing power from Moskurg's god.
That better not be what you're planning.
EDIT: Added some clarification on the use of explosive shells in an Aethergem HA1 (thanks VoidSlayer for reminding me about this!) and added clarification that if a cannon is fit with Aethergems, it will always be able to be used regardless of how much power it requires. It just may not run at peak efficiency.
EDIT: Removed R1 (no real benefits for the +difficulty) and Restless (same) from the revision.
Post by: Draignean on July 06, 2017, 11:55:22 pm
...
...
I desire to spray both of you with a bottle of cold water.
Anyhoo...
Let me know if you think there's a part of this that's too ambitious. But I like it. And also let me know if I'm missing any other tweaks/designs that need to be retrofitted.
I think the entire concept of doing a full fledged equipment update is asking for trouble. Personally, I'll vote for 1 and 3 of the options you initially suggested, but I'm not behind the "Arztotzkan Equipment Update".
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 07, 2017, 12:08:34 am
Aethergems seem to explode when violently damaged, so why not load a bunch of them onto the tip of one of our Blastshells? They can power the shell to blast towards the enemy like a Blastshells+R then cause a massive explosion when they hit the target, similarly to a Blastshells+E. Even better they can power the blast effect throughout the arc, making them not lose accuracy at long range. Using half the gems of a Blastshells+R/E, this should be both cheap and more effective then any current shell.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 07, 2017, 12:12:49 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 07, 2017, 12:20:41 am
If you want to use one of those techs to update multiple designs, okay, but using all our magic to update every design?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 07, 2017, 12:29:04 am
If this was anything new, then I'd agree with you.
Resistive Layering - See what I said in the post. This is incredibly simple. We already know how to do it exactly. It was explicitly listed as one of the capabilities of the new Crystalworks Mk. 2.
More complex crystal structures can be made, such as resistive and non-resistive crystal layering and more complicated shapes.
IDE Refitting - The IDE is just a bit smaller than the steam engine and it still outputs via the same method. Super easy.
Aethergem Fitting - We already know how to make Aethergems. We already make Aethergems. We've already powered designs with Magegems, and it's literally the exact same process to fit designs with Aethergems, with a minor change to the sizes being considered.
Though I am removing the stuff involving shields/adding crystal bits. Probably not enough to convince you or Draignean, but I still feel it's a bit much myself.
Post by: RAM on July 07, 2017, 01:23:20 am
RAM:I said that the aethergems were fundamentally a good idea, but flawed. I made a better design, and argued for it., I frequently pointed out why they were inferior to the alternative. But I do not recall saying that they were bad, just flawed and could be improved upon. Please cite a specific quote where I said that it was a bad design. For contrast on how I define this, I regard the Titan as a bad design. THAT would have been a waste of an action.
I'm actually convinced at this point that you seemingly oppose everything I type on principle. It feels like whenever I post anything in this thread it's only a matter of time before RAM comes to make up more stuff trying to "counter" it.
More to the point, I often criticise all proposals when I vote. It just so happens that I generally find may many many more problems with yours than I do with anyone else's. Most everyone else's proposals are actually viable. Yours lately have a habit of being fundamentally unworkable and missing a bunch of design elements in the final product. More to the point, these inevitable failures often get lots of votes, and thus it proves necessary to warn people that they are voting for something that will fail, which they generally do, generally for the reasons that I have stated. Such as Falcons not being found, tamed, trained, and mutated with a single action, we got the one thing that made it possible at all, a mind-control spell, a fully functional and usable one, unlike what happened with plant growth, when mind control wasn't even mentioned in the proposal and without it we would have gotten slightly enlarged birds that eat our trainers. We basically got the one thing that wasn't mentions and lost everything that was, and it was the best outcome that we could have hoped for, better even. If the G.M. wasn't constantly going out of their way to reinterpret your designs into something remotely plausible then we would have ploughed into disaster so many times that it isn't funny.
The problem is that I feel almost obligated to show why the stuff you post is blatantly false.And yet you do not do so. Please cite precisely when you showed "why" a post of mine was blatantly false. On the few occasions that you have done so I have actually been quite receptive. Like when you pointed out that the falcons were actually modified permanently, and not just suppressed temporarily. On that occasion you actually made an argument and actually got a result. Mostly you just make completely baseless accusations. Such as saying that what I post is blatantly false.
But that's at the cost of my time and the general state of the thread.The whole thread choosing designs, I try to argue for why designs should be chosen. If there were any actual content to any of your arguments then we could maybe resolve something. If a point has been argued I am willing to drop it, but nothing is addressed...
Sure, most people can probably see right through your stuff, but there's always that miniscule chance that someone may have their opinion shifted by your baseless assumptions.You keep making these empty claims about my flaws, nd yet have no evidence to back it up. Surely if my offences are so abundant you can find at least one that you can go into a respectable amount of detail on?
I'm fine with arguing/discussing this kind of stuff with other people, but really. Other people don't just make up stuff to counter every single sentence of what feels like every post I make. Like for a recent example, I disagree with Fallacy, but at least he makes an effort to actually support his arguments.Exactly, I have no issue debating with Fallacy for exactly those reasons. I and Fallacy both support our arguments. You do not. Please post a quote of you supporting an argument against me and me being unreasonable about it. The thread is not going anywhere, feel free to grab a quote, any quote. The thread isn't deleting itself in a hurry, you really ought to be able to find one somewhere.
Okay, that is fair, completely lacking in foundation, the protector was obviously too ambitious and was always going to need revisions to be a tide of armour rolling over the fields. The fact is we got lucky that the G.M. decided to just ignore parts of the proposal. But still, I am willing to believe that you know little enough about what a design can actually achieve that you thought that you were submitting something that would work as you wanted in its initial form. It is worth pointing out that the average roll of a 6-sided die is 3.5. "3" is as close to average as is possible. "-1" is a consequence of the design. So you are lying or wrong about it being "just bad luck" as that is not, in fact, bad luck. That is a design going exactly as one could reasonably expect. Protector got a ridiculously average roll and came out with features just completely absent and still works about at well as can be expected. And it did not win the turn for us, because it was the wrong design at the wrong time. Which is exactly what I claimed it to be. but you are correct that, assuming that you were mistaken about the protector's ability to be a functional design, thus did not explicitly design it to need a revision, that you asking to revise it is not evidence of you operating under the idea of designing to require the use of revisions.Quote from: RAM"My design is broken, just spend a revision to fix it" "Spending revisions to fix designs is bad, for vague reasons that I am not going into but are very real so long as they don't apply to me"When anyone can tell this is, as always, blatantly untrue. Like, if you actually read the supposed "hypocrisy" I said, which is:Quote from: ChiefwafflesAnd it's always a good idea to not have to use Revisions to fix a Design.Quote from: ChiefwafflesNot if we fix the Protector, which uses canons. And it's going to be exponentially harder for them to increase the effectiveness of the spell.Note how, unlike what RAM pretends it to be, this statements work together.
Using revisions to fix a design is unavoidable. We generally shouldn't make designs with the intention of also using revisions that turn to fix the design. It's always a good idea to not have to use a revision to fix a design is true - we shouldn't intentionally put ourselves in situations where we have to use a revision to fix something.
But the Protector is buggy only because of a poor bug roll. We had a [3-1] for the bug roll, which is mostly just bad luck.
On the other hand, that is a very specific interpretation that you are using...
Quote from: Chiefwaffles
And it's always a good idea to not have to use Revisions to fix a Design.You do not actually specify any intent. You specify a situation. Specifically that of having to use a revision to fix a design. A situation that we now find ourselves in if we need to use a revision to fix Protectors. We obviously don't, protectors are kind of pointless, they get about as much as they can out of their role in the current circumstances so no revision on them would help significantly, but if we did need one then that would be the situation that we find ourselves in as a consequence of their design. It is just really sad that you do not understand the word "blatant". When your entire argument rests upon a very specific interpretations of a very vague sentence then that is not blatant.
But then we come back to whether you actually designed the protector to require a revision.
I honestly don't trust that Evicted would ever be willing to make the Protector Cheap on the first design regardless of what we do. Also, usually Cheap/Expensive don't really make a difference for bigger things.So you expected it to be expensive, and regard a 3 as a bad roll. 3 is as good as precisely half the possible options, that is a very likely thing to happen. It was, in fact, by your own standards, very likely that your estimations would not be met. Your estimates were "expensive" at best. You even specifically mentioned the "First design" with reference to "Protector" thus implying that there would be future "Protector" designs. And yet apparently this is not an example of designing to require a revision? Even though you plainly regard the next step up from "expensive" to be requiring of a revision:
So here's a list of the flaws I could see at a glance:So you do not believe that cheap is possible. You believe that very expensive requires a revision, and you do not think it is appropriate to make designs that require revisions... So you do not believe that expense rolls exist? I am really having trouble figuring out if you are deliberately lying or really don't understand something about this situation, by your own statements the only possible outcome was a single specific expense level, as though expense levels are certain. Do you perhaps think that The G.M. was unjustified in giving the design anything less than a +2 on the expense roll?The ones in bold should probably be fixed first. I think we should prioritize the expense, but revisions fixing more than one problem would be great and may be possible. The Protector is (probably) useful as it is, and fixing a non-expense related part would probably not do much at Very Expensive.
- It's Very Expensive!
- No anti-magic resistance?
- Poor propulsion - The engine's great, but the small wheels can easily crack and sink into the ground. The lack of suspension means no cannon fire on the move. The gears make turning a very slow + arduous process and are prone to breakage at high speed. And more. We could probably fix all this with a single revision.
- It's slower than a horse. Related to above (gears/suspension/wheels and the like) and could probably be fixed with a single revision along with the above.
- Magegem battery only allows up to 1 minute of unpowered operation
- AS-HAC-1 emplacement provides no protection to operator, requires an apprentice operating it, and doesn't support armor making the operator very vulnerable. Also only useful for anti-air.
- IDE can't be retrofitted to other designs. We should probably just implement it in future designs; I don't think a retrofitting revision is worth it.
- Small amounts of ammo. Not a huge deal since the HC1-E is a pretty big cannon and can do a lot with small quantities of ammo.
Anti-magic resistance is annoying, but not the end of the world. Their anti-magic still needs to be consciously cast by a wizard with the spell and our soldiers can always just wait it out or depart the vehicle when disabled.
The wheels/gears/suspension/mechanical propulsion stuff is all annoying, but we can live with it. On the bright side, a single revision could potentially fix all of this and radically progress our knowledge of engineering in this area. Seriously. It's a huge opportunity - suspensions, gear turning, better wheels.
Maybe we could implement treads.
Not to mention the 6 other things that need revising on a PERFECTLY average roll with no comment about the G.M. misjudging the design... You are absolutely certain and sure that this design was not intended to need a revision?
And for another example, let's take another look at your post:I clearly stated that it was my personal opinion. It is very very clear. How vague can "Personally, I feel that" be on this issue? I made a very clearly personal judgement on what was plausible and used it as an example to explain my own thought on the matter. And it is not baseless, it is based upon my personal assessment of the situation, and I made that very clear. I don't even regard that as "bad" as you are accusing me of. I regard those rates as being pretty good. Well, the optimistic one, and the pessimistic one is generally bad, but that is what pessimistic is. Really, you are citing the exactly how clear, concise, and descriptive I can be at my best and saying that I refuse to provide tangible arguments. These are the figures that I think are likely and why I think they are not good enough., And, as it turns out, wer, by some miracle, got even better results, they can barely be considered batteries anymore and still haven't lost any storage capacity. I blame the G.M. for being too soft. That said, they still do not generate charge quickly enough to keep pace with our firearms. So it turns out that even a success well beyond my expectations was insufficient for our purposes.Quote from: RAMPersonally, I feel that recharging a magem in an hour would be optimistic, a day would be pessimistic, a week would be something that we ought to be prepared for, five minutes would be a thousand birthdays at once, and "enough to maintain a third of our current rate of fire" would be something that we can potentially hope for, but really shouldn't.Note how RAM is using this as evidence, yet it's literally just baseless assumptions. And I mean "baseless". There is no base to this statement. You're just saying "Well, I bet this is going to be bad, so therefore I'm right at saying it's bad!" like in nearly every argument you've made recently.
So yes, I freely admit that my very clearly labelled expectations were inaccurate. However, that is not actually any sort of problem. Somehow you managed to be completely wrong here. I did not use it as "evidence", I used it as a hypothetical example, very clearly so. It was not "baseless assumptions", it was estimates based upon my experience with the thread and the magics involved. Accumulating magic seems to be something that takes a while and now we have more than we know what to do with. I did not think that it would go "badly". I thought that it would result in a large increase in our magic generation, I just didn't think that it would be sufficient to replace magem replacement, so the proposed implementation could be improved upon and would not meet the very specific requirements that I was responding to, that of its function as a power-source for fully-functional and self-sufficient armaments. In the respect that it is completely accurate to the extent that it is advertise then yes, it is exactly like the majority of my recent arguments, however it, and my recent arguments, are completely unlike your description. So you are, in this instance, completely wrong.
Also in response to the "A mist cloud would likely be blown away":I have already stated that a tower of fog would result in a giant "shoot here" arrow stretching up into the sky above the conjurer. Wind, surprisingly enough, does blow fog. True, channelled fog does, indeed, persist, due to its continuous generation, but it is still blown and it thus still completely fails to obscure the location of the person creating it.
Nope.
See our "channeling mist" spell which explicitly works against wind by being continuously generated, which is the same thing a Tower of Mist would be doing. Actually, I just know you'll say "NUH-UH" then make up another thing saying that technically it doesn't work. But let me pre-emptively prove you wrong:Obscuring Mist: Cloaks a squad in a fog cloud, hiding their numbers and equipment, and making them harder to hit at range.
Variant (Channeled Fog): A denser form of Obscuring mist, continuously generated.Revision: Channeled Fog [5]Well I do so love making things up, lets make pretend that the G.M. said something like this:And then let's all share a delusion that channelled fog is, in fact, affected by wind. Or, you know, maybe it just likes being downwind, because our apprentices smell nice... How many times do you have to outright lie about me making things up without ever doing anything to support your claims before your slanderous tastes are satisfied?@EvictedSaint: How effective is our channeled fog against their wind spell? Is it still getting blown away or are we capable of maintaining constant cover on our troops?
It's about even. The fog is continuously generated from the casting mage, so as long as the troops trying to hide are downwind it will more-or-less cover them.Rather than just casting a cloud of mist and moving it about at will, our Mages have learned how to continuously conjure the fog. This means the cloud will grow larger and larger the longer they stand still, and moving will leave a trail of fog. This leaves more ambiguity as to how many men are hidden in the mist, and natural wind can't dispell the fog quickly enough to leave the men uncovered. Only time will tell if the Moskurg's control of the weather will be enough to dispell our cover.And I don't believe they've ever actually countered this. It's just not particularly useful. But even if I missed something and it's not viable because of wind (if you do want to say this, please bring evidence for once), do you know how we can fix that? More mist. Do you know what makes a lot more mist? Towers of Mist.
Now, are you quite done lying about me?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 07, 2017, 01:36:39 am
Aethergem ShellsThis definitely seems like it could work. Though a problem is that if we use an Aethergem to power the propulsion effect, Evicted could say the Aethergem won't explode at the end as it's discharged. But if Aethergems do explode when discharged, then that'd be great because the Aethergem shell (Blastaether Shell? Aetherblast Shell? Yes; Aetherblast Shell!) seems like it'd be a great choice.
Aethergems seem to explode when violently damaged, so why not load a bunch of them onto the tip of one of our Blastshells? They can power the shell to blast towards the enemy like a Blastshells+R then cause a massive explosion when they hit the target, similarly to a Blastshells+E. Even better they can power the blast effect throughout the arc, making them not lose accuracy at long range. Using half the gems of a Blastshells+R/E, this should be both cheap and more effective then any current shell.
It does make sense that Aethergems still explode when empty, after all. Charged Magegems don't explode, and the only thing different about Aethergems is their connection to the Aether. And the connection to the Aether isn't actually changed when it's discharged.
Maybe in the future we can do proper missiles with the Aethergem? Like, long-range missiles. The recharging nature of the Aethergem could make them a near-perfect match for that kind of thing.
Also, just as a note, I'm probably changing the count of Aethergems put in the AS-R1 in my Equipment Update revision to 1 instead of 2. Namely because I now realize that Aethergems are bigger and heavier than their respective size Magegems. So two would be a bit unwieldy.
Maybe. The AS-R1 did do just fine when it required 2 A-size Magegems per shot.
Post by: andrea on July 07, 2017, 01:46:54 am
So, he would still have to swap out clips, but he can recharge them during the fight.
Post by: helmacon on July 07, 2017, 01:53:22 am
I understand the urge to put our new stuff on everything, but the R1 honestly doesn't even need an aether gem. I believe the way ES described them being used is "firing one or two shots to break formations before switching to long swords, as it takes too long to load additional bullets."
The R1 is slowed by bullet load time, not gem charge/load time. By the time they were ready to use it again, they will have had plenty of time to replace mage gems outside of combat.
If we work on the R1 at all, we need to be making it actually useful in combat, not adding bells and whistles.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 07, 2017, 01:57:39 am
So I'm removing the R1 from inclusion in the equipment revision.
EDIT: Removed the Restless as well. It's Expensive now anyways, so individual Restless trains (I'm starting to resent my past self for naming it the "Restless". Can you even make a plural form of that?) being destroyed don't matter nearly as much.
Post by: RAM on July 07, 2017, 02:01:51 am
We allocate a large supply of AAA Aethergems to the academy so that our students can frequently recharge their magical abilities, allowing them to engage in practical training for longer sustained periods and more frequently, thus accelerating their learning.
We further supply it with a small supply of A Aethergems for more promising students to train with effectively greater magical capacity, letting them experience magics that are beyond them. This helps to accelerate their progress into higher fields and makes them more aware of how the limitations and potential of the more powerful magics on the battlefield.
Faster training means more apprentices means more magical power generated... It is a viscous cycle, and we wish to be viscous...
Temporary Wizards
Some of our mages are trained to wield Aethergems and magems to support their spellcasting. This allows them to draw on the powers of a more advanced category of wizard. Combined with our academy training they can control the more powerful spells that they now have access to. Thus, depending upon how many Aethergems and magems we are willing to supply to the cause, we can inflate the supply of higher-calibre spellcasters..
If they just feed the equipment then we can supply the power to our machinery without modifying it. Alternatively they could use it to throw some B.B.s at enemy carpets and such. Or use some big spell that we have been preparing. Or we could apply this to Myark and design some sort of super-national-effort Kaiju summoning...
Weightite works
As the name suggests, this will really work! Or not.. It seems ambitious, but we have been getting away with murder lately.
Gemerators
Aethergems are nice, but still recharge too slowly to effectively sustain cannonfire and hypothetical bullet summoning apparatus. We produce a new line that dedicates the whole of the gem to accumulating power, tapping into "roots" of the great beyond, to increase the magic generation at the cost of the storage capacity. We also wanted more puns, and feel that this will make for an effective weapon..
Anyway, we retool a crystal summoning platform to summon a very simple, but extremely heavy material. Which will be shaped into shells to see if our cannons can fire them, but I don't expect much... But still, if the material can be done in a revision, and we have a lot of experience with material summoning, then we will have the material for awesome things later on. I know that "really heavy" doesn't sound like much, but it is really nice.
Ugh. The Mundane is very well named. It does what it wants to... Ugh, it is tolerable, vaguely, I mean, the rate of fire is pathetic... Can you use AAAs instead? They are basically better... Or, I guess the way the G.M. basically gifted us adjustable recharge rate on a silver platter was nice. So we can use a mix of gems for half-decent firing rate. We really want a shell-summoning thing too, but crystals won't work for that... I really can't support the mundane, that rate of fire is just too low.
Equipment is badly presented. The priorities are meaningless. No matter how much it is stated, conductive and resistive crystals and layered construction is not that easy. It is a revision of its own, at LEAST a revision. Fitting maybe a revision of its own. across all designs it almost certainly is, but it does get the things into service, maybe... Changing engines is easy? Ehh, maybe, things are pretty magical around here. As a lucky-dip it ought to achieve about as much as it can, so that is not terrible, but it really needs to have some sort of prioritisation, and it just doesn't.
I want to say that rockets are more susceptible to wind than shells are, but I don't have the background to back that up. At a guess I would assume that the important factors are mass and travel-time and rockets tend to be lighter and travel for longer. But we do need longer range, so it is not bad if it works as advertised, and there is no compelling reason to believe that a rocket with no fuel would be light...
Quote
0 HA1-b "Mundane" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504739#msg7504739):
0 Arstotzkan Equipment Update (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504757#msg7504757):
0 Aethergem Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504773#msg7504773):
0 Academy Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 Temporary Wizards (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 Weightite works (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 Gemerators (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 Save the credit:
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 07, 2017, 02:03:48 am
conductive and resistive crystals and layered construction is not that easy.
Right.
Revision: Crystalworks Mk. 2 [4+1](Lower emphasis mine)
...
More complex crystal structures can be made, such as resistive and non-resistive crystal layering and more complicated shapes.
Post by: helmacon on July 07, 2017, 02:17:40 am
The mage suit
The ability to artificially generate magical energy has been a breakthrough. No longer is magic the domain of a lucky elite.
Through expirimintation we have found that while only a few people may be able to draw magical energy from the aether, anyone can direct it. The mage suit is a piece of specialist armor designed to allow a mundane solider act as a mage.
It is comprised of two aether gem arrays in a backpack feeding into a series of crystalline wires. These conductive Crystal cords are spliced directly into the solider, feeding him a steady supply of magical energy to work with. With training, he can then operate as any normal mage would.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 07, 2017, 02:27:07 am
I'm sure we could do it, but it most certainly adds difficulty.
The thing is we don't really have any useful spells for someone in something like the Mage Suit to use. We have magitech. And it'd be a lot easier to simply have armor that can plug into tools/equipment or have gauntlets that conduct magical energy or something like that.
My vision for future armor is an Aethergem core in it that powers equipment used by the occupant. They hold a rifle and it's powered by the armor. They can charge depleted [Mage/Aether]gems manually, like an apprentice, if needed as well. But really for anything that wouldn't be handheld equipment it could probably just do better with an Aethergem. Since Expense is Rolls combined with the most expensive item, and isn't cumulative with different components. Having 10 different Expensive components is better than having 9 Cheap components and 5x of an Expensive component.
Here's what I think we should do:
1.) Make our Magitech able to be used by mundane people, eliminating the need for apprentices and mages to power magitech.
2.) Make spells that can then be used by our masses of mages with nothing else to do.
I also like the idea of just turning our wizards into supersoldiers that can basically get 200% out of magitech. Sure, this guy with Aethergems in his equipment can fire his AS-R2 once per three seconds, but our wizard here can fire twice per second and can have his power armor set to ON constantly!
Post by: RAM on July 07, 2017, 03:03:03 am
Oh, wow, I did not notice that. Huh... It... still doesn't actually work that way. I mean lightning that is, either coat yourself in a resistive layer, and I mean air-tight, especially at the bottom, so that any path through you also goes through highly resistive materials, or coat yourself relatively casually(An open cage is fine)in something highly conductive, so that There is always an easier path than the one through you, and even with their arrow-lightning it should still just be a matter of a single layer of resistant coating that lightning will deflect off of, but still, I did not spot that we could do that now. I guess I will have to find some way to make use of it...More complex crystal structures can be made, such as resistive and non-resistive crystal layering and more complicated shapes.(Lower emphasis mine)
P.S.
Congratulations! You were actually right about something! Can you tell the difference?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 07, 2017, 03:50:38 am
P.S.Unneeded explicitly personal attack is unneeded.
Congratulations! You were actually right about something! Can you tell the difference?
I'm... pretty sure that's not how electricity works.Oh, wow, I did not notice that. Huh... It... still doesn't actually work that way. I mean lightning that is, either coat yourself in a resistive layer, and I mean air-tight, especially at the bottom, so that any path through you also goes through highly resistive materials, or coat yourself relatively casually(An open cage is fine)in something highly conductive, so that There is always an easier path than the one through you, and even with their arrow-lightning it should still just be a matter of a single layer of resistant coating that lightning will deflect off of, but still, I did not spot that we could do that now. I guess I will have to find some way to make use of it...More complex crystal structures can be made, such as resistive and non-resistive crystal layering and more complicated shapes.(Lower emphasis mine)
Electricity doesn't just take the path of least resistance. It takes all paths. It's just that some materials are resistive enough to make the amount of electricity passing through negligible.
The problem with steel is that it's not a great conductor, and heats up by very large amounts when hit by lightning. The reason why Crystal helps against lightning, even before we created resistive Crystal, is that it's a very good conductor of electricity and doesn't heat up when electricity passes through this.
The problem, however, was that electricity could pass through the Crystal into bits that don't react well with electricity. This is how Moskurg was hitting our Crystalclads with lightning - our engines then (and now, to a much lesser degree) were made out of steel. So they could destroy our engines. With Personal Armor, the electricity just went into the human. And humans aren't particularly great when dealing with extreme amounts of electricity.
And no, making super conductive crystal wouldn't work either. Humans are actually pretty conductive. You know how capacitive touch screens (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touchscreen#Capacitive) work? The human body conducts electricity, and the effect this makes upon touching the screen can be measured.
But anyways. Humans are conductive. More-so than many things, like the ground. So electricity would largely pass through conductive crystal to the body instead of the ground because of differences in resistances. And large amounts of electricity, again, doesn't mesh well with humans.
When we created Resistive Crystal, we also made lightning rods to work with it. The lightning would go through the steel into the ground as the steel is much conductive than Resistive Crystal. The problem was that the lightning rod, being made out of steel, didn't survive multiple strikes.
But Moskurg countered this by allowing their lightning to be precise enough to hit the person, not the lightning rod. So the lightning is forced through the Resistive Crystal, creating extreme amounts of heat. But this ability is clearly superficial - they can just choose the path lightning takes through the air.
And now we get to Resistive+Non-Resistive layering. By layering like this we create two paths in say, a person in layered combat armor, for lightning. To get to the person, the electricity would have to pass through the very non-conductive Resistive Crystal. Or, to get to the ground, electricity would have to pass through the very conductive Non-Resistive Crystal.
So the extreme majority of the electricity will get grounded with no other effects, and a negligible amount of electricity will go through the resistive crystal.
I would also like to point out that the lightning rod system, which worked (until it was explicitly hard countered), is just a cruder version of this. And no, their counter to lightning rods will not work against layered R/N-R Crystal. Observe the combat phase where Moskurg introduced their counter:
Titled "Heretics Fallacy", this frightening spell allows user to exert greater control over where and how lightning strikes. They can't force it to perform impossible tasks, but they can encourage it to flow through an Arstotzkan soldier rather than down a lightning rod."They can't force it to perform impossible tasks" means essentially that they can path the lightning through the air to the armor. But to counter resistive crystal layering, they'd have to fundamentally break some very fundamental laws of how electricity works. Way more-so than they currently are.
TL;DR: Electricity largely goes through the path of least resistance. When a human is in conductive armor, electricity will largely go through the human instead of the ground. When the human is covered by resistive crystal, electricity will largely go through the ground instead of through the human.
Post by: Andres on July 07, 2017, 04:24:36 am
Same thing as before: increase magegem capacity up by one level. It's an incremental improvement, it's an improvement we've done before, and we have the Crystalworks Mk. 2, so this should be pretty easy to do.
Revision: Blastshell Modularity
Our current blastshells come in E+, R+, and ER+ forms. Each of them use AA magegems to achieve their effects, which are all equivalent to one PSF. Once magegems get their capacities increased, they will use AAA magegems to achieve their effects. This revision aims to allow them to use the availability of different kinds of magegems to have additional effect.
We will now go forward with the assumption that magegems have had their capacity increase upgrade.
Here are examples of what this revision will do:
E+ blastshell has the explosive power of a PSF using AAA magegems.
After the revision, we can make E++ blastshells which use AA magegems, giving them a bigger boom in exchange for going one Expense level up.
After the revision, we can also make E+++ blastshells which use A magegems which have an even bigger boom than AA magegems.
This is not limited to explosive power. After the revision, R++ and R+++ can also be made to give them longer range. Not only that, but different combinations can be made, such as E+R++ or E++R+.
To make it easier to write down the capabilities of these shells, a new naming scheme will be brought into effect. Pluses will be replaced with numbers. For example, E+ shells will now be called E1 shells, E++ shells are now E2 shells, E++R+ shells are E2R1 shells, etc.
With the Crystalworks 2.0 lowering shell costs by 1 Expense level, E2/R2/E1R1 shells will be Cheap and shells with a total number of 4 (such as E4 or E2R2) can be made at Very Expensive cost rather than National Effort cost.
Between Crystalworks Mk. 2 and our extensive experience with artillery, the Fireball spell, and circuits, this shouldn't be a very challenging revision at all.
Quote
0 HA1-b "Mundane" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504739#msg7504739):These two revisions will be very useful to us. Together, it would completely counter the effect of their range-dampening magic, giving us complete artillery dominance once more. Because of the increased firepower the revision also gives us, said artillery dominance would be utterly devastating, enough to defeat anything they throw at us next turn and then some.
0 Arstotzkan Equipment Update (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504757#msg7504757):
0 Aethergem Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504773#msg7504773):
0 Academy Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 Temporary Wizards (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 Weightite works (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 Gemerators (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
1 - Magegem Capacity Upgrade (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504894#msg7504894): Andres
1 - Blastshell Modularity (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504894#msg7504894): Andres
0 Save the credit:
Glory to Arstotzka.
EDIT: What would make this artillery even MORE devastating is that thanks to aethergems, we can have more apprentices crewing more artillery rather than charging magegems. Seriously, we have the opportunity to do a shit ton of damage here.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 07, 2017, 04:28:47 am
Like, seriously. Please.
Quote
0 - HA1-b "Mundane" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504739#msg7504739):
1 - Arstotzkan Equipment Update (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504757#msg7504757): Chiefwaffles
0 - Aethergem Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504773#msg7504773):
0 - Academy Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Temporary Wizards (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Weightite works (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Gemerators (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
1 - Magegem Capacity Upgrade (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504894#msg7504894): Andres
1 - Blastshell Modularity (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504894#msg7504894): Andres
0 Save the credit:
Post by: Andres on July 07, 2017, 04:29:55 am
Quote
0 - HA1-b "Mundane" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504739#msg7504739):
1 - Arstotzkan Equipment Update (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504757#msg7504757): Chiefwaffles
0 - Aethergem Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504773#msg7504773):
0 - Academy Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Temporary Wizards (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Weightite works (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Gemerators (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
1 - Magegem Capacity Upgrade (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504894#msg7504894): Andres
0 Save the credit:
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 07, 2017, 05:33:41 am
And are there any other benefits to upgrading Magegems other than a step towards better Blastshells? I mean, overall it seems like this may be putting one revision (better Blastshells) into effect using two, when we could be doing much more.
Post by: RAM on July 07, 2017, 05:48:59 am
I agree, I felt sort of bad about it, but there was a good reason for it too. You see, your statements are reliable incapable of determining accuracy and inaccuracy. If you are just a troll, then good for you! Well done! Advanced troll achievement gained!P.S.Unneeded explicitly personal attack is unneeded.
Congratulations! You were actually right about something! Can you tell the difference?
If not, then that statement is for you, and it is not an insult, it is am honest, if rhetorical, question. And an honest congratulations on your achievement. If that is the case then you clearly suffer from a very profound lack of awareness about how deduction works and I expect that you find yourself wrong about a great many things where you can't just shout people down. A bit more consideration might help you a great deal. Likely though, you are instead on the receiving end of such treatment, as is so often the case with such things... I really can't help you but do wish you the best.
If, on the other hand, we are trying to balance out personal attacks...
RAM comes to make up more stuff trying to "counter" it.If any of these statements were justified, then they would be legitimate criticisms. They are not. They are just slander. They look like a malicious attempt to sideline someone by spreading false rumours. You have often claimed all of these things. "Enough repetition makes something true" perhaps? Not once have you actually presented an argument to justify them. If you are not going to establish what, specifically, I am presenting as false evidence, then these are purely insults, and far more perverse and malicious than than any mere slight on your character.
the stuff you post is blatantly false.
your baseless assumptions.
I'm fine with arguing/discussing this kind of stuff with other people, but really.
Other people don't just make up stuff
at least he makes an effort to actually support his arguments. You, on the other hand...
as always, blatantly untrue.
if you actually read
RAM pretends
Either RAM conveniently ignored this, or just doesn't understand this.
RAM comes to make up more stuff trying to "counter" it.It is nice to finally see an attempt to argue something. You are sadly wrong here. As I posted shortly afterwards, there is a direct quote from The G.M. that the fog is blown by wind. Channelled fog is generated at the point of origin continuously and then obeys the wind. A fog tower would produce enough fog to cover an entire region. It would, however, not cover the region, it would only cover the parts that the wind blew it towards. Likely toward the tundra.
Also in response to the "A mist cloud would likely be blown away":
Nope.
See our "channeling mist" spell which explicitly works against wind by being continuously generated, which is the same thing a Tower of Mist would be doing. Actually, I just know you'll say "NUH-UH" then make up another thing saying that technically it doesn't work. But let me pre-emptively prove you wrong:Obscuring Mist: Cloaks a squad in a fog cloud, hiding their numbers and equipment, and making them harder to hit at range.
Variant (Channeled Fog): A denser form of Obscuring mist, continuously generated.Revision: Channeled Fog [5]And I don't believe they've ever actually countered this. It's just not particularly useful. But even if I missed something and it's not viable because of wind (if you do want to say this, please bring evidence for once), do you know how we can fix that? More mist. Do you know what makes a lot more mist? Towers of Mist.
Rather than just casting a cloud of mist and moving it about at will, our Mages have learned how to continuously conjure the fog. This means the cloud will grow larger and larger the longer they stand still, and moving will leave a trail of fog. This leaves more ambiguity as to how many men are hidden in the mist, and natural wind can't dispell the fog quickly enough to leave the men uncovered. Only time will tell if the Moskurg's control of the weather will be enough to dispell our cover.
Now, granted, there may be ways around this. Perhaps some sort of magical "ladder" that exists in all places and the fog can link to this and "climb" it. Or perhaps the fog is just faster than the winds that the enemy uses to oppose it. Or perhaps the fog is not material fog and doesn't respond to physical impetus. The fog's points of origin might be numerous and distant and thus can be moved to account for the wind and spread everywhere regardless. There are possibilities, but as it stands, fog is useless against wind unless you can put the fog-generator ahead of the thing that you are trying to hide, and make the fog-generator extremely obvious in the process.
RAM comes to make up more stuff trying to "counter" it.And here, again, you try to defend your statements. But can't help throwing out generalised slurs and consistently fail to have a valid statement. You are hinging your argument on me making unfounded statements about your design. I have not here made any unfounded statement about your design. I made it very clear that it was just my personal opinion as to what was likely. If I had cited it as fact then you would have had a point, but as it is I just presented what were very clearly my own opinions as to what we could expect and left it to others to discern if they agreed. You could have freely made your own personal opinions as to what the likely outcomes would be, that would have been a valid opposition, instead you just accused me of lying when my statement did not, in fact, contain any data that could have been reasonably construed as a lie even if it were completely inaccurate. <-and there is reasoning, not the finest ever, but an actual attempt to convey some justification for my position. Rather than just stating that my opponent is incompetent and failing to support the statement.Quote from: RAMPersonally, I feel that recharging a magem in an hour would be optimistic, a day would be pessimistic, a week would be something that we ought to be prepared for, five minutes would be a thousand birthdays at once, and "enough to maintain a third of our current rate of fire" would be something that we can potentially hope for, but really shouldn't.Note how RAM is using this as evidence, yet it's literally just baseless assumptions. And I mean "baseless". There is no base to this statement. You're just saying "Well, I bet this is going to be bad, so therefore I'm right at saying it's bad!" like in nearly every argument you've made recently.
I am just looking for a little recognition that Chiefwaffles is slandering my ability to justify my statements, and is doing so with nothing to support those claims. We are both entitled to our own opinions. We can clearly state that one another are wrong. But making a concerted effort to establish that someone has no validity had better be backed up by some valid arguments or else it is just trying to murder someone. Which is exactly the correct term to use when you try to completely annul someone's presence.
Electricity doesn't just take the path of least resistance. It takes all paths. It's just that some materials are resistive enough to make the amount of electricity passing through negligible.That may be true, I wouldn't know, but negligible quantities are not important.
Note that lighting goes from the sky to the ground. Air does conduct. Not well, but it does do it. Faraday cages work. You put a person in the middle, even a tall person, they will be safe. The path through the air and through the person is a path, most notably, the shortest path by distance, but it is not electrocuted...
The problem with steel is that it's not a great conductorNot compared to copper, no, but compared to a human? It is actually quite rather good.
Observe the combat phase where Moskurg introduced their counter:Nope, they are breaking them completely right now. I am pretty sure that what that statement actually means is "lightning won't currently path through a window, up a flight of stairs, through a keyhole, along a curtain-rail, into a human head, and then down a drain. Which, ironically, would be more possible than ignoring a lightning rod. It would just need the right conductors in the right places to form the right path...Titled "Heretics Fallacy", this frightening spell allows user to exert greater control over where and how lightning strikes. They can't force it to perform impossible tasks, but they can encourage it to flow through an Arstotzkan soldier rather than down a lightning rod."They can't force it to perform impossible tasks" means essentially that they can path the lightning through the air to the armor. But to counter resistive crystal layering, they'd have to fundamentally break some very fundamental laws of how electricity works. Way more-so than they currently are.
TL;DR: Electricity largely goes through the path of least resistance. When a human is in conductive armor, electricity will largely go through the human instead of the ground. When the human is covered by resistive crystal, electricity will largely go through the ground instead of through the human.Which is why Faraday Cages are not a real thing.
Now, sure, magic lightning is obviously weird, so your made-up story about how lightning works ais as good as anyone's, but if we are talking about real lightning, then no, just no, not even a little bit.
Post by: helmacon on July 07, 2017, 06:17:11 am
Quote
Personally I think it's a better idea to just throw some Aethergems into Combat Armor and not bother with the splicing it directly into the soldier.I concede they may be more efficient ways to do that, but I dare say there is no cooler way to do it.
I'm sure we could do it, but it most certainly adds difficulty.
Anyways, we have a lot of tech we've sunk designs into that are having a negligible effect right now. The R1, the protector, our now obsolete frost towers. We have a lot of Game changers waiting in the wings if we are willing to finish them up.
We still have 0 air force. We don't really use our rifles. The protector is a mess.
I think we ought to focus on fixing designs for a bit before we design any new stuff.
Aether gem integration is a no brainer, as otherwise our whole design was useless.
I'm thinking we ought to skip an R2 for now and go straight to a sort of gun "emplacement" that is belt fed and fully automatic. I might post a revision for such later.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 07, 2017, 06:30:10 am
As for a new gun, I just think belt fed isn't the best we could do. We have the ability to summon ammunition at will. Let's use that.
Think of the advantages. Mages can fire even faster. We never have to worry about ammo. If we put the gun anywhere, we don't have to worry about physical access - we can simply put controls (via gears) in a safe place and the person never has to get to the gun via reloading.
Most importantly, it should be easy. We already know exactly how to summon crystals in any shape or form. We use small fabricator circuits to do so. We simply need to dial in a bullet/shell shape, and put the circuit into the barrel.
Compare this to having an automatic belt-fed/etc. weapon. We'd have to worry about constantly supplying ammo. If we ever want to put it on a vehicle, we have to either spend more time/effort developing automated systems to do that then worry about those systems getting damaged or else we have to compromise security + convenience to have it reloadable manually.
Then there's the difficulty. Right now, we know how to have a secure bolt-operated breech-loading system. I think it's very reasonable to revise it to semi-automatic self-feeding, but revising it from breech-loading to belt-fed in a revision (though you could have a design, but if we do crystal fab we could do more with a design) seems a bit ambitious. Maybe possible, but definitely at a heavy risk of some penalties. Much worse compared to crystal fabricators, which is an established Arstotzkan science using tech we already have.
Also, never having to reload. Ever. Imagine. The soldier of the future - power armor, a rifle with crystal fabrication, a personal Aethergem power supply. They never have to reload. Ever. Imagine the rate of fire!
If we do just Crystal Fabrication as a revision then we may be able to get away with applying it everywhere. Though we should probably have a prioritized cannon to fit it in first. I'd say the AS-HAC-1 and name the updated version the AS-HAC-2. Since it does have "auto cannon" in the name and that's a bit lacking.
But yeah. For a better gun, I'd say improve the AS-HAC-1. It has a lot of potential as an HMG/Autocannon/whatever. The rifle has its niche and a design can definitely help later, but an AS-HAC-2 would be very useful.
Post by: andrea on July 07, 2017, 07:47:02 am
I also agree that if we focus on crystal fabrication, we can probably get layered crystal on much of our stuff in one action.
Post by: helmacon on July 07, 2017, 09:11:08 am
The ammunition box contains an aether gem set up and the circuits for summoning of Crystal bullets. There is a singular circular belt that moves between the box and the gun, continuously replenishing its ammo.
I dislike the idea of having the entire summoning apparatus as part of the gun. It would make it enormous, unwieldy, and difficult to aim. If a single aether gem is the size of a fore arm, then an entire bullet summoning array is probably the size of the entire gun. Instead of doubling the size of our guns, we squash that down into a box. We could even mount that box to the gun later on if we needed to.
I don't think aether gems generate fast enough for indefinite fire, but it could certainly fire long enough for any practical application, recharging between firing.
The bigger concern is the mage gems powering the firing mechanism. If we get 2 shots from a single gem, maybe an easily replaceable core of 8 attached A gems? Enough for a long burst of fire. The automated ammo means you only need a crew of 2 to run the gun. One to switch out the gem core, and one to shoot the thing.
Post by: Draignean on July 07, 2017, 10:06:04 am
I'm willing to try it on revision one, as an act of good faith, but I rather fear we might need to spend our second revision to fix our first revision.
Chiefwaffles: I'll vote for the Modernization Upgrade, but you should change the 'HIGH PRIORITY' tag you've got sitting next to every point with a ranking. I think Aethergem installation should be number 1, but I really have no preferences for the order of the other two.
Quote
0 - HA1-b "Mundane" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504739#msg7504739):
2 - Arstotzkan Equipment Update (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504757#msg7504757): Chiefwaffles, Draignean
0 - Aethergem Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504773#msg7504773):
0 - Academy Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Temporary Wizards (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Weightite works (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Gemerators (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
1 - Magegem Capacity Upgrade (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504894#msg7504894): Andres
0 Save the credit:
1 Buy Chief and RAM a room so they can hatefuck and get it out of their system: Draignean
Post by: andrea on July 07, 2017, 12:34:40 pm
This is a device made of one or more aethergems linked to each other, encased in a layered crystal shell to reduce chances of detonation during field operations. Circuits redirect magical energy generated by aethergems to sockets on the outside of the device where magegems can be inserted to be rechargedor where other circuits can be plugged in to power devices.
Common sizes include a 2 aethergem backup for troops, vehicle sized packages to run engines or field sized packages to help powering cannons.
Post by: evictedSaint on July 07, 2017, 12:48:36 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 07, 2017, 12:54:21 pm
Post by: Draignean on July 07, 2017, 01:01:49 pm
Quote
2 - HA1-b "Mundane" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504739#msg7504739): Voidslayer, Draignean
1 - Arstotzkan Equipment Update (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504757#msg7504757): Chiefwaffles
0 - Aethergem Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504773#msg7504773):
0 - Academy Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Temporary Wizards (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Weightite works (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Gemerators (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
1 - Magegem Capacity Upgrade (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504894#msg7504894): Andres
0 Save the credit:
1 Buy Chief and RAM a room so they can hatefuck and get it out of their system: Draignean
Voting for the Mundane, if anyone wants a flashier name, or has other suggestions, I am glad to change it.
What about Sublunary Cannon?
Post by: Andres on July 07, 2017, 01:56:37 pm
Actually, Andres, could you have it so the AAA Blastshells work with the AS-HAC-1? Just so we can be one step closer to flak!There's really no point to upgrading the HAC-1 to use blastshells. Keeping the upgrade focused on the HA1 shells is the best way to go. Using the revision for my idea rather than resizing it will probably give us more experience with shells anyway, so it'll get us closer to flak than resizing the shells for the HAC-1.
And are there any other benefits to upgrading Magegems other than a step towards better Blastshells? I mean, overall it seems like this may be putting one revision (better Blastshells) into effect using two, when we could be doing much more.
Upgrading magegems just for this is completely worth it, as the extra firepower it would give us would be nothing short of extraordinary, but it'll also allow for better designs in the future. That AAA magegems would be able to hold PSFs would be very valuable indeed and would allow for smaller cannons to fire blastshells.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 07, 2017, 02:33:17 pm
Also what about Lunar as the cannon name?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 07, 2017, 02:59:25 pm
We made our Aethergems, and now we can fit them into our designs.
Aethergem Fitting - We incorporate slots for Aethergems in the design. The Aethergems are protected by a crystal glass plate that can be slid (or rotated inwards) to reveal the gem, while the crystal glass allows seeing the charge level. The Aethergems of course will be linked to the circuitry of the weapon, and the number+size varies depending on the design.
Generally speaking the amount of Aethergems used will be as many as possible without raising the Expense over the expense of the Aethergem used and remaining practical size/weight-wise.
Now for the affected designs!
1.) AS-HA1 - We make a variant of the AS-HA1 powered by as many AA Aethergems as possible while keeping an Expensive rating. The Aethergems aren't enough to singlehandedly power a firing of the AS-HA1, but should be enough to reduce the crew requirement of the HA1 to 2 apprentices instead of 3.
2.) AS-HAC-1 - Aethergem fitting in a style similar to the AS-HA1. Ideal sitation: The AA Aethergem variant should be able to be used for extended periods of time without an apprentice, and the AAA Aethergem preferably hold enough charge for 1-2 shots before waiting to recharge.
3.) Crystalclad - The Aethergems should be like the AS-HA1, with an Expensive CC variant using AA Aethergems, and a Cheap one using AAA ones. General goal is to decrease apprentice requirement to 0 or 1.
4.) Protector - Aethergem Refitting. Ideal goal is for Protector to reliably be able to fire its cannons or be moving (not at the same time of course) on the Aethergems. At least for a respectable period of time. I'm assuming the Magegem battery here is already wired to the cannons. Ideally this should make it so one apprentice + mundane crew can reliably run a Protector at 100% efficiency if not already possible.
Okay, I've removed everything else so it's just Aethergems now.
Which is obtainable. We've done this exact kind of thing in the past. The scope is limited - we're just upgrading Aethergems now.
Quote
2 - HA1-b "Mundane" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504739#msg7504739): Voidslayer, Draignean
1 - Aethergem Fitting (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505146#msg7505146): Chiefwaffles
0 - Aethergem Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504773#msg7504773):
0 - Academy Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Temporary Wizards (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Weightite works (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Gemerators (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
1 - Magegem Capacity Upgrade (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504894#msg7504894): Andres
0 Save the credit:
EDIT: Added numbers (the ones in bold) to indicate the priority of the Aethergems designs.
Post by: Kadzar on July 07, 2017, 03:07:41 pm
Quote
2 - HA1-b "Mundane" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504739#msg7504739): Voidslayer, Draignean
2 - Aethergem Fitting (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505146#msg7505146): Chiefwaffles, Kadzar
0 - Aethergem Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504773#msg7504773):
0 - Academy Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Temporary Wizards (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Weightite works (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Gemerators (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
1 - Magegem Capacity Upgrade (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504894#msg7504894): Andres
0 Save the credit:
Post by: evictedSaint on July 07, 2017, 03:12:58 pm
Revision: Better Magegems [3+1]
Sticking with the A-levels, a AAA battery should be able to power a couple flares. An AA battery should be able to power a SPSF-C all by itself, and an A battery should be able to power a regular PSF-C. Three A batteries can power a single PSF in all its glory.
It takes 3 A-level Aethergems to power a single firing of an HA1, fyi.
Post by: RAM on July 07, 2017, 03:17:09 pm
1: Chiefwaffles honestly believes this stuff: I honestly wish to help them.
2: Chiefwaffles is actually correct: I would dearly like an explanation that I could learn from rather than just endless insults.
3: Chiefwaffles is a troll or sociopath who is trying to harm others for fun or basically murder people in order to benefit their own standing: I legitimately need to defend myself and should help others.
Now my main problem is that regardless of which or how many of these are true, the effects of 3 are active. The number of times that I have been accused of being completely unreliable recently is staggering. It is a very insidious piece of social manipulation and sadly it is entirely possible to perform it out of habit without realise what you are doing. Fortunately, if people jut recognise that it is happening then the effects largely vanish. If people were willing to acknowledge that my assessments were largely accurate(for example: that my assessment of the Aethergems as potentially not providing effective rate-of-fire as-is and potentially being incompatible with existing magem functionality were legitimate concerns. As opposed to being so "baseless", even as mere speculation, that it needed to be said three times in quick succession. And that we could reasonable expect to have been better off with gemerators and magem charging stations.) then I would be free to drop the issue. But people make it evident by continuing to vote for these things that they do not appreciate that my observation of potential flaws in designs is frequently accurate and that efforts would be better spent reviewing the design than telling everyone that I am basing everything that I say on fantasy that they actually think when I say things such as "we actually have experience with conjuring animals, awesome vultures are practical, while all we have with domestication is horses and that isn't even mentioned in the design, so taming wild hawks would actually be more difficult even though the vultures are more impressive." that they honestly believe that I am basing my assessments on pure fantasy. I am trying to make our designs better, and I am being slandered for it. This is legitimately a source of potential harm to me and others. And it is only "potential" in the sense that people might not actually believe it, if people actually act upon it than the harm is real. People had literally died from less...
Temporary wizards ought to work as a way to integrate aethergems, as wizards can charge devices. But the powder-room idea seems like fun, so lts go with that!
Quote
2 HA1-b "Mundane" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504739#msg7504739): Voidslayer, Draignean
2 Aethergem Fitting (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504757#msg7504757): Chiefwaffles, Kadzar
0 Aethergem Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504773#msg7504773):
0 Academy Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 Temporary Wizards (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 Weightite works (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 Gemerators (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
1 Magegem Capacity Upgrade (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504894#msg7504894): Andres
1 Aethergem recharging pack (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505077#msg7505077): RAM
0 Save the credit:
1 Buy Chief and RAM a room so they can hatefuck and get it out of their system: Draignean
Post by: Draignean on July 07, 2017, 03:21:18 pm
So what if, instead of fixed Aethergems the HA1-b used a removable rack of gems. They could have 3-4 racks recharging between shots, which would allow the thing to fire once every 2 minutes or so.
Also what about Lunar as the cannon name?
Well, I suggested sublunary since it's an old word that means non-extraordinary, but sounds cooler than mundane.
So what if, instead of fixed Aethergems the HA1-b used a removable rack of gems. They could have 3-4 racks recharging between shots, which would allow the thing to fire once every 2 minutes or so.
Magi-tech single action revolver. Each cylinder contains multiple racks of aethergems, cannon operators rotate the cylinder in the act of replacing the next shell so that the active rack is kept in motion
Hmm, though now that I'm thinking about it, it might make more sense to make a static array with a central cluster of mage gems fed by a radial block of aethergem assemblies...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 07, 2017, 03:24:39 pm
So basically we have to spend more revisions on the Aethergems (that rolled a 6 on effectiveness!) before they're actually useful.
Ugh.
Revision: Better Aethergems
We increase the charge rate and capacity of Aethergems. The priority is capacity, but we believe that we can use an increase in capacity can be taken advantage of. It's similar to, well, a bottleneck. You increase the size of an opening to a container and the rate at which you can pour things into or out of that container can greatly increase.
We aim to get Aethergems (and by extension, Magegems) to be able to hold energy equivalent to the next level up. AA+ can hold A worth of energy, etc.; and ideally for the recharge rates to be enough so that the time to completely charge an Aethergem is equivalent to or greater than the time it took to charge one before this revision.
This shouldn't be difficult thanks to the Crystalworks Mk.2, which we can use to take advantage of much more precise gem structures in the Crystal Glass gems instead of the more kludge-y Crystalworks Mk. 1 that was use for the better Magegems.
Quote
2 - HA1-b "Mundane" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504739#msg7504739): Voidslayer, Draignean
2 - Aethergem Fitting (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504757#msg7504757): Chiefwaffles, Kadzar
0 - Aethergem Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504773#msg7504773):
0 - Academy Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Temporary Wizards (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Weightite works (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Gemerators (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
1 - Magegem Capacity Upgrade (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504894#msg7504894): Andres
1 - Aethergem recharging pack (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505077#msg7505077): RAM
1 - Better Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505162#msg7505162): Chiefwaffles
0 Save the credit:
Alternatively, we can have a dedicated HA1 revision (kind of like Void's one), except the revision is doing two things:
1.) Increase power consumption efficiency of the HA1 (main part of revision)
2.) Fit in Aethergems (easy)
Or we could just go "screw it" with the HA1 and make a Very Expensive variant powered by current Aethergems, without doing anything else, but that feels like wasting a revision.
And Aethergem Fitting is still viable, just not for the HA1. Which is disappointing. But if people still like it they can vote for it.
@RAM: Jesus, RAM. Please stop. Seriously.
Also, please stop removing the dashes from the vote quote.
Post by: evictedSaint on July 07, 2017, 03:33:27 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 07, 2017, 05:06:13 pm
Why not make an Equalizer variant that jams weather? This version of the Equalizer is one, cheaper for using our new Crystalworks MK 2, and two, works in a slightly different manner: instead of using anti-magic crystals or gems or whatever we're using currently, it uses very small versions of them, and comes apart in mid-air after being fired. When fired into the magically effected clouds, it spreads low-power anti-magic through the weather, disabling Moskurg's control over it, or hampering it at least.
Quote
2 - HA1-b "Mundane" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504739#msg7504739): Voidslayer, DraigneanBy the way, how do you link to a single post? That is one area where my forum-fu is lacking...
2 - Aethergem Fitting (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504757#msg7504757): Chiefwaffles, Kadzar
0 - Aethergem Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504773#msg7504773):
0 - Academy Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Temporary Wizards (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Weightite works (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Gemerators (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
1 - Magegem Capacity Upgrade (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504894#msg7504894): Andres
1 - Aethergem recharging pack (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505077#msg7505077): RAM
1 - Better Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505162#msg7505162): Chiefwaffles
1 - Duststorm Equalizer: FallacyofUrist
0 Save the credit:
I would like to note I'm not entirely opposed to an aethergems revision, I would just like to do a practical revision first so we gain a combat advantage, and if the attempt to gain a combat advantage fails, we can revise that too.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 07, 2017, 05:10:48 pm
That link directs you to the exact post. So I make a post, get its link from the subject, then edit in the link.
And personally I'd think we'd be better off with mundane versions of an anti-weather thing.
Also no to hard counters!
We started winning when we invested in artillery, not by hard countering Moskurg's weather stuff. Moskurg started winning once when they invested into air stuff, not when they hard countered our artillery! And even when they tried hard countering our artillery, they still lost!
Semi-ninja edit: I changed Aethergem Fitting so with the HA1 the goal is to just use AA Aethergems to assist in firing, reducing the apprentice requirement to 2 instead of 3. I think that's reasonable for now.
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 07, 2017, 05:12:46 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 07, 2017, 05:14:53 pm
To me, at least, a hard counter is basically what I said earlier. Like this:
Quote
Moskurg: I use my wind attack!
Arstotzka: Nuh-uh! I have an invisible shield that makes me immune against wind attacks!
But if we're investing in fortifications, designing a living crystal wall or portable crystal fabricators would be the best way to go, in my opinion. Both techniques allow for very quick construction of really strong fortifications.
Or we could invest in the Protector. Which is a moving fortification!
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 07, 2017, 05:19:22 pm
I wouldn't say that's a hard counter. More of a soft counter.
To me, at least, a hard counter is basically what I said earlier. Like this:QuoteMoskurg: I use my wind attack!
Arstotzka: Nuh-uh! I have an invisible shield that makes me immune against wind attacks!
But if we're investing in fortifications, designing a living crystal wall or portable crystal fabricators would be the best way to go, in my opinion. Both techniques allow for very quick construction of really strong fortifications.
Or we could invest in the Protector. Which is a moving fortification!
The idea is a fungus that can grow and spread under ground and then we use dogwood wands to incite sudden growth of hardened mushrooms wherever we need protection, probably fire resistant and such. It would allow us to create sudden fortifications anywhere we need them with the only tool we need a simple wooden wand wielded by an apprentice.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 07, 2017, 05:32:48 pm
We've combined our expertise with explosives and plant magic to create the Mycelium Bomb. One of our agents will infiltrate Moskurg, go to one of their farms there, and then use one of these bombs to render the farm useless. Here's how it works.
Basically, it's a bomb packed with spores and life magic. When it explodes, the spores get everywhere on the farm and the life magic causes the spores to instantly form a large amount of mycelium and a few mushrooms, rendering it impossible for the crops to survive. Furthermore, the field its exploded on will have problems supporting any crops forevermore until Moskurg clears out the mycelium... a difficult task.
The end result is less food for Moskurg, decreasing morale and lowering the number of troops they can field.
It also works as a grenade.
Seriously, we should do grenades, it would be so easy.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 07, 2017, 05:36:35 pm
Well, actually.
Revision: Growing Crystal
We already know easily how to make crystal grow - we have regenerative crystal. But we have a better idea.
We can connect a bit of tweaked regenerative crystal to an AA Aethergem. Then, put a capacitive button on the Aethergem connecting the crystal to the power of the Aethergem. Once this happens, the crystal will start rapidly growing in the form of a wall. The wall's slightly curved to allow for protection from air attacks and higher-angled frontal attacks as well.
Our soldiers can simply press the button and throw the device down for quick fortification, wherever they are!
We have extreme experience with creating crystal to exact specifications. We already have the exact knowledge on how to make crystal grow. We have the Aethergem. This revision is merely connecting the dots.
@Fallacy:
Two problems with Mycelium Bomb:
1.) Evicted does not like espionage. This seems like the main function of the bomb would qualify as espionage?
2.) A grenade would probably be better served by just revising our Blastshell into one (or using an order like pathetic Moskurg), but we don't really need another offensive advantage in infantry combat right now and we can't use grenades with air units like Moskurg does.
Post by: RAM on July 07, 2017, 05:47:27 pm
The recharging pack gets us the armour we need for our powder rooms and gets power from the generators into devices, so it is a good idea if we want to salvage the design. I mean, we could have done gemerators and the charging circuit ought to have been simple enough to just be a piece of the design, getting power to flow from a source to a destination is sort of what circuits do, and thus actually had a working design, but the recharging pack gets us a nice full-revision's worth of armoured recharging-station bliss all ready for standardised field deployment rather than just some crude crystal platform with bare circuitry or something.
Ugh, really? The hard counter thing again?
Protector is a good example of a hard-counter to artillery that failed. It is too slow to catch the artillery so it just plods along however long it takes to break down. Breaking down isn't what ruins them, plenty of them don't break down, they just don't achieve their role of getting things to the battlefield because much of the battlefield moves faster than they do.
Crystal layering is an example of a hard-counter to lightning that may or may not work. If the idea of "their lightning spells, which they have spent many designs on, suddenly have no effect on any of the forces that we send into its influence" is not a hard counter than I don't know what is.
Antimagic charms are a hard-counter to mind-reading that was very expensive but had a lot of potential. It worked, it still works.
Antimagic fields are a hard-counter to then entire school of conjuration that works just fine so long as they don't need magic to avoid terminal velocity. We managed to counter it with a full design, and only for a single field of conjuration. Webs, caltrops, wasps, and fog are all still basically useless against their ground forces. And also useless against their air forces too, which reflects that their air forces are a hard counter to all our hand-to-hand weapons. Basically everything short ranged, and our contact-explosives.
Their artillery was a hard-counter to our entire army. We didn't recover from that. Protectors are an attempt, but are basically insignificant. More to the point, they would be more than a single revision spent countering the enemy's hard counter. Does anyone else actually remember what happened when artillery first appeared? They sent enough spears into our ranks to half our effective numbers. I still kind of suspect that they invented flechette cluster munitions along with the design. We never broke that hard-counter, we just matched it with some theoretical stuff we had been working on.
Adamantine is a hard counter to fireballs and frost towers. It is VERY difficult to describe frost towers and fireballs as not being worth it. How, precisely, are we to counter adamantine's thermal immunity with a revision? If it has any chance of working I will probably vote for it. Now, normally that would be a pretty big "if" but I have seen the G.M. pull some amazing backflips in order to get our stuff to work regardless of how messed up the proposal is, so I am finally willing to ease up a little on complete nonsense that remains nonsensical in the context of magic. I will just accept that the design is about intent, rather than method. Even though coming up with magical methods seems like more fun and ought to get us bonuses...
Hard counters worked. They required more than a revision to annul, and can have loads of side-benefits that make them worth it even if the counter is countered. We have a long history of being messed up by hard counters and even used a few, and are actively pursuing more. "hard counters don't work" is not a valid statement and is not held by any of the people advocating it. "Hard counters are not fun" may well be true, but doesn't seem to have much traction...
living crystal wall or portable crystal fabricators would be the best way to go, in my opinion.Can I count on your vote? I suppose it would need to be updated a bit, maybe...
Communual spell: The living wall!
Blah blah blah: we mathemagically analyse fire wasp spell and extract the "life" and add it to a crystal wall.
Make attuned gems, let's say, emeralds, they all focus on the same spell and store magic for it.
Lots of wizards wielding gems, all likewise attuned, can all contribute to the same spell.
The spell is alive, it is a wall, it is crystal. 10 centimetres of steel should stop anything they care to throw at us, and the wall is alive, it gets thicker if it needs to and thinner if it can to save energy.
The wall is alive, it is perfectly capable of analysing attempts to dispel it and fighting against it as only a being formed of living and aware magic can. If it loses the fight, it just moulds itself around the antimagic and covers other places, or protects against attacks from above, or even grabs its own casters and places them out of the antimagic field.
Old magic: Summon living thing, channel a spell through a gem, mass-crystal summoning(caltrops and a wall that can 'move' by destroying itself at one point and creating itself at another sol ong as it maintains a single mass are pretty similar, but seriously, we have SO MUCH crystal expertise it isn't even sad anymore.).
New magic: Multiple people collaborating on one spell, dynamic crystal forms, maybe, not rally though, that stuff is old..., living 'magic': we have the magic wasps, which are alive, and made out of magic, but, I guess this is another step into meta so give that some acknowledgement I suppose...
If it works we can use if for ship armour.
Post by: evictedSaint on July 07, 2017, 05:51:14 pm
Now, normally that would be a pretty big "if" but I have seen the G.M. pull some amazing backflips in order to get our stuff to work regardless of how messed up the proposal is
Daaaw :D
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 07, 2017, 05:53:21 pm
And the living wall seems like a waste, honestly. We have Aethergems and Magegems. Why make our spell require numerous mages with a mage shortage on hand when we can make something that doesn't need mages at all?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 07, 2017, 06:13:51 pm
Quote
2 - HA1-b "Mundane" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504739#msg7504739): Voidslayer, Draignean
2 - Aethergem Fitting (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505146#msg7505146): Chiefwaffles, Kadzar
0 - Aethergem Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504773#msg7504773):
0 - Academy Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Temporary Wizards (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Weightite works (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Gemerators (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
1 - Magegem Capacity Upgrade (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504894#msg7504894): Andres
1 - Aethergem recharging pack (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505077#msg7505077): RAM
1 - Better Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505162#msg7505162): Chiefwaffles
1 - Duststorm Equalizer: FallacyofUrist
0 Save the credit:
I just realized that someone reverted the url change in Aethergem Fitting. While keeping the name. Somehow.
So I fixed it. "Aethergem Fitting" in the above vote quote thing now leads to the actual revision.
EDIT: After asking Evicted on Discord, I was informed that with a single item, we'd basically be able to get what we wanted with anything other than a 1, and maybe even with a 1. Doing more than one fitting is possible but a bit harder. I also ordered the priorities of the items to be fitted.
Spoiler: Full Quote (click to show/hide)
(Also I just realized I double-posted. I'm so sorry!)
Post by: helmacon on July 07, 2017, 10:00:34 pm
Quote
3 - HA1-b "Mundane" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504739#msg7504739): Voidslayer, Draignean, helmacon
2 - Aethergem Fitting (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505146#msg7505146): Chiefwaffles, Kadzar
0 - Aethergem Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504773#msg7504773):
0 - Academy Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Temporary Wizards (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Weightite works (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 - Gemerators (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
1 - Magegem Capacity Upgrade (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504894#msg7504894): Andres
1 - Aethergem recharging pack (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505077#msg7505077): RAM
1 - Better Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505162#msg7505162): Chiefwaffles
1 - Duststorm Equalizer: FallacyofUrist
0 Save the credit:
Orders:
2 - Buy Chief and RAM a room so they can hatefuck and get it out of their system: Draignean, helmacon
Post by: RAM on July 07, 2017, 11:19:51 pm
We review circuit-interactions and hammer out the finer details of getting a circuit to interact with a device. This is intended to ensures that we will always be able to connect devices together.
Small common units like the various gems will always be designed along with a simple socket that can easily be worked into any circuit, circuitry sealed within leather pockets can be used for circuit "cables" to attach circuits together via standardised "access points" that can be integrated into any circuit, so as to attach larger devices to other circuits using cables, control-patterns will be codified that can be used to protect a circuit, forcing the attachments points to deteriorate before any damage is done to the inner-workings of the circuit due to being attached to a circuit with incompatible forces. And the forces will be codified and standardised to ensure that as many circuits as possible are compatible with one another.
The inability of our circuits to be modified to incorporate a new power-source is just embarrassing. We know enough about circuits that sorting out the current mess of generations of different circuit philosophy should be pretty easy. We just have to stop using a dozen different methods to get the same result and we should be able to reliably connect any two devices together. The value of attaching two cannons together might be minimal, perhaps lucky to even get them to share a power-source or fire simultaneously, but being unable to simply incorporate a new power source into our existing devices conclusively proves that our engineers have been too busy tinkering with new layouts and haven't bothered to get the circuits working in a consistent and reliable fashion.
We hope that this will grant us access to "orders" to attach devices together with no chance of severe failure.
You very clearly have aMy off-hand list of hard counters:wrongdifferent definition of hard counters than me in that case, RAM.
Protector is a good example of a hard-counter to artillery that failed. It is too slow to catch the artillery so it just plods along however long it takes to break down. Breaking down isn't what ruins them, plenty of them don't break down, they just don't achieve their role of getting things to the battlefield because much of the battlefield moves faster than they do.Basically, things that render something else insignificant or nonfunctional. I really can't see how anyone could have a definition that diverges significantly from that. Maybe you actually disagree with how severe these things are? I mean, the artillery was not "that" hard of a counter, but it was pretty much consistently impossible to win after being hit by it. The rest of them are much more severe then just artillery blunting armies before they get into sight of each other. But probably the best examples of hard counters that work are adamantine and antimagic. They basically turn off entire schools of magic and antimagic is still working on conjuration and we have actually spent a design on that issue. Perhaps you want to revise the frost towers to cause rusting somehow? Oxidisation would kill crews faster than it would rust metal, but everyone knows that metal is weak to rust attacks, so I guess it would work that way... But how to turn a frost tower into a frozen rust tower?
Crystal layering is an example of a hard-counter to lightning that may or may not work. If the idea of "their lightning spells, which they have spent many designs on, suddenly have no effect on any of the forces that we send into its influence" is not a hard counter than I don't know what is.
Antimagic charms are a hard-counter to mind-reading that was very expensive but had a lot of potential. It worked, it still works.
Antimagic fields are a hard-counter to then entire school of conjuration that works just fine so long as they don't need magic to avoid terminal velocity. We managed to counter it with a full design, and only for a single field of conjuration. Webs, caltrops, wasps, and fog are all still basically useless against their ground forces. And also useless against their air forces too, which reflects that their air forces are a hard counter to all our hand-to-hand weapons. Basically everything short ranged, and our contact-explosives.
Their artillery was a hard-counter to our entire army. We didn't recover from that. Protectors are an attempt, but are basically insignificant. More to the point, they would be more than a single revision spent countering the enemy's hard counter. Does anyone else actually remember what happened when artillery first appeared? They sent enough spears into our ranks to half our effective numbers. I still kind of suspect that they invented flechette cluster munitions along with the design. We never broke that hard-counter, we just matched it with some theoretical stuff we had been working on.
Adamantine is a hard counter to fireballs and frost towers. It is VERY difficult to describe frost towers and fireballs as not being worth it. How, precisely, are we to counter adamantine's thermal immunity with a revision? If it has any chance of working I will probably vote for it. Now, normally that would be a pretty big "if" but I have seen the G.M. pull some amazing backflips in order to get our stuff to work regardless of how messed up the proposal is, so I am finally willing to ease up a little on complete nonsense that remains nonsensical in the context of magic. I will just accept that the design is about intent, rather than method. Even though coming up with magical methods seems like more fun and ought to get us bonuses...
But why debate definitions when you provide a fresh an up-to-date example of exactly what a hard-counter is.
To me, at least, a hard counter is basically what I said earlier. Like this:Now lets change some words around...QuoteMoskurg: I use my wind attack!
Arstotzka: Nuh-uh! I have an invisible shield that makes me immune against wind attacks!
Quote
Moskurg: I use my lightning attack!Perhaps you might be able to see why I am a little confused here? I am quite certain that you have proposed what is, quite specifically, a shield that makes someone immune to lightning. Or is that yet another thing that I am obviously just making up, regardless of how many sources I might site? Please either stop proposing hard counters or stop telling other people to stop proposing hard counters.
Arstotzka: Nuh-uh! I have a crystal armour that makes me immune against lightning attacks!
Post by: helmacon on July 08, 2017, 05:35:28 am
Superimpose an artificial magical field in a small area around the device that bypasses the traditional aether connection.
Our aether gems mimic the connection to the natural aether, but don't actual form a real connection. By changing the "frequency" of the aether generated by the gems, we can create a secondary magical field. Their anti magic blocks access to the natural aether, but trained mages can tap into this secondary frequency to continue to perform magic in the area around the device.
Post by: evictedSaint on July 08, 2017, 11:21:28 pm
Revision: HA1-b "Mundane" [3]
The first integration of the brand-new Aethergems into pre-existing equipment, the "Mundane" sports a rather humble name despite the dangerous threat it presents.
Normally an HA1 requires three mages casting PSF-C's in unison to generate the necessary force required to propel the heavy shell the distances required; because an A-level Aethergem can be exhausted for a single PSF-C that means the artillery piece can be fired without any mages whatsoever.
To fire the Mundane, three A-level Aethergems are slotted into a powering station that's wired to the cannon via a set of crystal cables. The sliding bolt is pulled back and a new shell (whether it's an ordinary iron shell or an explosive range-extended shell) is slid in place by hand. The bolt is slid back and locked in place, and a simple switch completes the circuit between the powering station and an additional circuit that generates the three simultaneous PSF-C blasts.
What was once entirely mage-required can now be operated by mundane, magic-less troops in the field. This is the first time a job that had been exclusively a mages has been replaced by technology, and though some are worried about their own obsoletion most are thrilled to find they're no longer required for such lack-luster purposes.
Unfortunately, the expensive nature of A-level Aethergems means most HA1-b's are outfitted with only three, and though they can be slotted in and out for fresh gems we simply don't have enough to go around. However, if we are for whatever reason without mages, it is comforting to know our most valuable asset can still be operated...at one round every ten minutes. Very Expensive.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 08, 2017, 11:50:08 pm
Historically, Very Expensive weapons just haven't been great. The HA1 was Very Expensive at first and made a very small impact until we made it just Expensive, which was the reason we won in all theatres that round. A design can be great, but if it's Very Expensive and not explicitly designed as a really powerful weapon that one would expect to be Very Expensive, historically it won't have a huge impact.
No AM resistance, so fixing the Protector is useless as well. So let's try for something else for the time being.
Revision: Crystal Ammunition Fabricator
The CAF is an impressive component to be fitted to all our cannons, in the following priority from most to least important: AS-HAC-1, AS-HA1, AS-R1, AS-HC1-E.
The component is surprisingly simple. In the small crystal container lies three circuits
The Mk. 1 Crystalworks' circuits would still be fine for the CAF, but the Mk. 2 Fabricator circuits make it even easier. Bullets and shells are already designs perfect for manufacturing from crystal - they're small and simple, meaning we can have very tiny fabricator circuits making them. The Mk. 2 Fabricator circuits' ability to more easily produce more complex designs makes this even easier.
The CAF is designed to be able to be fit onto any cannon (in the prioritized order listed in the beginning of this revision), though they of course can't be hot-swapped in the field; that'd be silly.
Once fit onto a cannon, the CAF is linked to the circuits of that cannon handling the Blastball used for firing the projectile. Once the projectile is fired, the firing circuits then trigger the CAF, which will fabricate the appropriate ammunition inside the firing chamber, ready to be fired. This is where the fact that we have three individual fabricator circuits comes in - a single circuit can fabricate a projectile quickly, but needs to "cool down" in layman's terms for a bit. So we have three and alternate between them.
The firing speeds should be greatly improved. While of course a mage can't simply concentrate to fire a literal unending stream of shells, the rate of fire of affected weaponry should be drastically improved to speeds never thought possible before.
The CAF is powered either by a mage or external wiring input (either from the cannon or another source). Considering the standing efficiency of the Crystalworks, power consumption shouldn't be high and for example, an AA Magegem should be able to power both a SPSF-C and a single shell/bullet fabrication. But generally the CAF is designed first and foremost to be made use of by wizards; mundane users can always insert shells manually if we can't get the Fabricators to be powered by existing power supplies.
The effects may seem huge, and they are, but ultimately the CAF is simply programming a simple design into crystal fabricators from the Crystalworks then putting those fabricators into a box.
TL;DR: Take Crystal Fabricator circuits from Crystalworks Mk. 2, put three in a box, attach box to cannon, set circuits to make ammunition in the firing chamber. Enjoy new semi-automatic weaponry.
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1 - Crystal Ammunition Fabricator (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7506128#msg7506128): Chiefwaffles
Post by: helmacon on July 09, 2017, 12:03:36 am
This may be an unpopular idea, but I think we ought to use our last revision on the mundane as well. Either reduce the costs, or increase the rate of fire. If we can make the mundane effectively the same thing as the regular HA1, we would tripple the number of our cannons, and have all of our wizards avaliable for what ever else we need them for.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 09, 2017, 12:17:35 am
And this is what Evicted said on Discord regarding the HA1-b:
Quote from: evictedSaint (Discord)
The Mundane is a variant of the HA1 that has spots for aethergem insertion and PSF-C generators in the firing chamber. It is VeryExpensive. Both the HA1 and the HA1-b perform separate roles.So if I'm interpreting this correctly, then we have a handful (Very Expensive) of HA1s that fire at a rate of 1 round/10 minutes, but require zero wizards to do so.
Post by: RAM on July 09, 2017, 12:37:26 am
I recommend the recharging pack. It updates all of our magem-based technology into the new field.
Forced Force Flourishes
We tweak our blast-balls(primarily) and fireballs(If we are able, they ought to be similar enough) to be manually detonated. This allows them to be set off in the midst of enemy formations and shoot air targets with no need to strike accurately. This should give our apprentices a more accurate option with a larger coverage and presumably immunity to wind(as wind has never been noted to influence them at all) against targets at closer ranges.
I still feel that we ought make some attempt to recover our design action with the charger, but the F.F.F.s would be a good ward against some sort of artillery resistance that could nullify our smaller calibres.
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2 Aethergem Fitting (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505146#msg7505146): Chiefwaffles, Kadzar
0 Aethergem Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504773#msg7504773):
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1 Aethergem recharging pack (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505077#msg7505077): RAM
1 Better Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505162#msg7505162): Chiefwaffles
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Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 09, 2017, 12:51:14 am
Crystal Ammunition Fabricator is obviously useless. We already are shooting as quickly as we can with the amount of magic we can generate. This is increasing the rate of fire when we already have ammunition shortages. Not ot mention that crystals are useless as ammunition. Our metal shells are being deflected by wind. Wind deflection is primarily based around density. A tonne of feathers is effectively lighter than a tonne of bricks because the feathers can never exert as much force or carry as much much inertia. Crystal ammunition will be easier to blow away, Such a revision would, in the current situation, be a downgrade.Nope.
1.) Literally nowhere has it been said that we "are shooting as quickly as we can with the amount of magic we can generate." Literally nowhere.
2.) "Ammunition shortages" is no longer a problem. This is the most recent time it was mentioned:
Combat for 941Note the time. And A.) Ammunition shortages at this time (which was two combat phases ago) were only if the trains derailed. Which was only a problem because Al-Mutriqa was assigned to this theatre. B.) This was before we got Expensive Restless trains, which solve this problem and then some.
...
The derailed trains hurts Arstotzka here pretty badly - the trains are unarmed and full of valuable artillery shells (although they have the sense not to transport the gems charged, meaning no messy explosion). Without frequent supply drops, the HA1's must annoyingly fall silent every so often. This is a god-send for Moskurg soldiers who've taken to ducking in their trenches every time they hear a noise.
3.) The difference in weight between Crystal and Steel isn't significant. Crystal has only ever been a bit lighter than steel. Note this quote.
Design: Combat Armor [2+2, 3+6, 4+2]"Modest". The weight difference between complete plate armor made out of steel and complete plate armor made out of Crystal is modest. The weight difference between steel and crystal is only notable at much larger sizes, like the Crystalclad and maybe the Protector/Restless.
...
Essentially the same design, our armor is now made entirely out of crystal rather than steel. This results in a modest reduction in weight ...
Crystal shouldn't have any notable difference in effectiveness against their anti-shell wind magic, and would not be notably easier to blow away.
EDIT: And people back then were voting for the first revision. Don't bring their votes back now. I fixed the votes, though I left your vote for obvious reasons.
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0 - Aethergem Fitting (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505146#msg7505146):Also please stop removing the dashes.
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Post by: RAM on July 09, 2017, 01:33:29 am
Nope?Crystal Ammunition Fabricator is obviously useless. We already are shooting as quickly as we can with the amount of magic we can generate. This is increasing the rate of fire when we already have ammunition shortages. Not ot mention that crystals are useless as ammunition. Our metal shells are being deflected by wind. Wind deflection is primarily based around density. A tonne of feathers is effectively lighter than a tonne of bricks because the feathers can never exert as much force or carry as much much inertia. Crystal ammunition will be easier to blow away, Such a revision would, in the current situation, be a downgrade.Nope.
1.) Literally nowhere has it been said that we "are shooting as quickly as we can with the amount of magic we can generate." Literally nowhere.Except:
Though Arstotzka now has more HA1's, they can't field them to their full potential as they need three mages to a cannon and they have just as many cannons as mages. Nearly every available wizard is pulled to HA1 firing dutyNo amount of calling me a liar will make me a liar. You, on the other hand, are lying. It is very obvious because you have been making proposals to increase our magic supply. You are well aware that we have a shortage of magic and are very obviously just calling me a liar for your own games, and it has long passed to point of being acceptable behaviour.
2.) "Ammunition shortages" is no longer a problem. This is the most recent time it was mentioned:I was using ammunition as another term for magic. /It is a constraint on how much we can fire. Obviously a thing that summons bullet would be a boon if we were low on bullet supplies. IOf you were actually trying to argue the point then you should have gone with that. You obviously aren't even trying to win an argument, you are just trying to denounce my opinion at every opportunity and it is no longer possible to consider such extreme displays as anything other than intentional malice!
3.) The difference in weight between Crystal and Steel isn't significant. Crystal has only ever been a bit lighter than steel. Note this quote.Wow....our armor is now made entirely out of crystal rather than steel. This results in a modest reduction in weight"Modest". The weight difference between complete plate armor made out of steel and complete plate armor made out of Crystal is modest. The weight difference between steel and crystal is only notable at much larger sizes, like the Crystalclad and maybe the Protector/Restless.
Crystal shouldn't have any notable difference in effectiveness against their anti-shell wind magic, and would not be notably easier to blow away.
Quote from: wiktionary: modest
2. Small, moderate in size.
He earns a modest amount of money.
Her latest novel was a modest success.
Quote from: witionary: moderate
1. Not excessive; acting in moderationYou are saying that it will make no difference. You are wrong. I would ascribe this to just not understanding the words that you are using, but I must assume, at this point, that it is malice. Please stop blatantly lying to everyone for your own self-aggrandisement. It is not subtle anymore, everyone can see that you are lying. More specifically:
moderate language
a moderate Calvinist
travelling at a moderate speed
Jonathan Swift
A number of moderate members managed […] to obtain a majority in a thin house.
2. Mediocre
3. Average priced; standard-deal
It is on par with a lance made of steel, but substantially lighter.On the scale of a lance it is "substantially" lighter. "Substantial" means that it is important enough to take note of...
Not that that actually is a thing at all. I mean, there is no "scale" factor here. It is relative weights for the same sizes that count. A crystalclad that is 20% heavier will displace 20% more water. A bullet with the same ratio will be blown 20% further off course, more or less. Flight-physics are more complex than simple displacement, but the scale is still basically meaningless. So your pointless attack at my integrity wouldn't even be justified if it were based on truth instead of outright lies.
EDIT: And people back then were voting for the first revision. Don't bring their votes back now. I fixed the votes, though I left your vote for obvious reasons.This, on the other hand, is fair. I didn't consider that the situations was sufficiently changed that people would alter their votes, and assumed that everyone would have ample opportunity to fdo so if they were so inclined. I admit that I was wrong. Still, it could have been worse, I could have just deleted everyone else's proposals...
Also please stop removing the dashes.Heh, funny, there is some leniency in how to interpret that, but I expect that most everyone will agree that the implications is that I am making a habit of such. Most assuredly not the case the first time that you said it and now? Well, I prefer it the other way, and you have taken far worse liberties so I will take my own. I find it easier to edit the votes and add new ones this way so I will do as I see fit. Do you perhaps have some sort of authority in this matter? I mean, you added them to other people's proposals before I removed them, you had no more right to do that...
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0 Aethergem Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504773#msg7504773):
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1 Crystal Ammunition Fabricator (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7506128#msg7506128): Chiefwaffles
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Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 09, 2017, 01:57:46 am
Nope?And you'd be incorrect.
Quite literally never called you a liar in the referred post, pal. Stop manufacturing drama, please.1.) Literally nowhere has it been said that we "are shooting as quickly as we can with the amount of magic we can generate." Literally nowhere.Except:Though Arstotzka now has more HA1's, they can't field them to their full potential as they need three mages to a cannon and they have just as many cannons as mages. Nearly every available wizard is pulled to HA1 firing dutyNo amount of calling me a liar will make me a liar. You, on the other hand, are lying. It is very obvious because you have been making proposals to increase our magic supply. You are well aware that we have a shortage of magic and are very obviously just calling me a liar for your own games, and it has long passed to point of being acceptable behaviour.
But anywhoo, let me give you a walkthrough over our problem with the HA1 and how magic has been established to work in Wands Race.
Spells are a matter of training and concentration time. We don't have mana here. The limitations of a spell are that the mage must be trained in it beforehand, must have the general skill to execute the spell, must be in a situation where the spell is useful, and have time to prepare the spell.
"Mana" does in a way exist. But for our ____Gems and circuitry only. Humans aren't restricted by any form of magical energy.
Now the HA1 problem. The AS-HA1 uses three PSF-C spells to create the necessary pressure for the shell. The PSF-C is actually a Cheap spell. This does not mean that the spell requires a low amount of energy for its circuitry to cast. It means that an Apprentice can be trained in the spell. That's it.
A problem is that magic here isn't flexible like it is in some other fiction. You have a spell, and you can use that spell only. Our apprentices don't cast "a fireball about this big" or "a PSF but bigger". They cast "PSF", "SPSF", or nothing.
So we need three apprentices to cast the three PSF-Cs required for a HA1 to operate. Because we know how to train an apprentice to cast a PSF-C spell. And an apprentice can't make up variations like "x3 PSF-C" in the field.
And this is why you're wrong. This is not a problem of "magical energy". This is a problem of logistics. Of training. We are limited by manpower in HA1s and nothing else. We need 3x Apprentices to be able to operate a HA1. Even a Master Wizard couldn't do it because they don't have a spell for 3x PSF-Cs at once.
2.) "Ammunition shortages" is no longer a problem. This is the most recent time it was mentioned:I was using ammunition as another term for magic. /It is a constraint on how much we can fire. Obviously a thing that summons bullet would be a boon if we were low on bullet supplies. IOf you were actually trying to argue the point then you should have gone with that. You obviously aren't even trying to win an argument, you are just trying to denounce my opinion at every opportunity and it is no longer possible to consider such extreme displays as anything other than intentional malice!
Have you realized how these little "fights" occur, buddy, pal, RAM? Because you're always the one starting it. You're always the one calling my designs, and I quote, "obviously useless." That's you. I'm merely pointing out why your criticisms of my designs are wrong.
I'm annoyed because there's a pattern here. If I see that little "RAM" in the "last post" section of the thread from the FG&RP board, I instinctively think "Oh, RAM's manufacturing more 'problems' in my design for some nebulous reason."
And no, you weren't "using ammunition as another term for magic." Because you literally already brought that up when you said, and I again quote, "are shooting as quickly as we can with the amount of magic we can generate." That and "ammunition" usually means ammunition, not magic. Even if you weren't retroactively changing your meaning to avoid being wrong, it's still on you to word your posts in ways so people can understand them.
It's okay to admit you're wrong, RAM.
Thank you for proving my point.3.) The difference in weight between Crystal and Steel isn't significant. Crystal has only ever been a bit lighter than steel. Note this quote.our armor is now made entirely out of crystal rather than steel. This results in a modest reduction in weight"Modest". The weight difference between complete plate armor made out of steel and complete plate armor made out of Crystal is modest. The weight difference between steel and crystal is only notable at much larger sizes, like the Crystalclad and maybe the Protector/Restless.
Crystal shouldn't have any notable difference in effectiveness against their anti-shell wind magic, and would not be notably easier to blow away.
Wow....Quote from: wiktionary: modest2. Small, moderate in size.
He earns a modest amount of money.
Her latest novel was a modest success.Quote from: witionary: moderate1. Not excessive; acting in moderation
moderate language
a moderate Calvinist
travelling at a moderate speed
Jonathan Swift
A number of moderate members managed […] to obtain a majority in a thin house.
2. Mediocre
3. Average priced; standard-deal
You are saying that it will make no difference. You are wrong. I would ascribe this to just not understanding the words that you are using, but I must assume, at this point, that it is malice. Please stop blatantly lying to everyone for your own self-aggrandisement. It is not subtle anymore, everyone can see that you are lying.Another RAM Insult! I should be collecting these!
Buddy, if you can't prove me wrong then just give up and realize that you're wrong. It's okay to be wrong! We're all wrong at many points in our lives. It's a part of being human, and it's okay to admit it.
But instead you resort to character attacks. Please stop it.
More specifically:Goddamn RAM. You do know that you can't just magically make people dislike me by increasing the density of the word "lie" in your post, right?It is on par with a lance made of steel, but substantially lighter.On the scale of a lance it is "substantially" lighter. "Substantial" means that it is important enough to take note of...
Not that that actually is a thing at all. I mean, there is no "scale" factor here. It is relative weights for the same sizes that count. A crystalclad that is 20% heavier will displace 20% more water. A bullet with the same ratio will be blown 20% further off course, more or less. Flight-physics are more complex than simple displacement, but the scale is still basically meaningless. So your pointless attack at my integrity wouldn't even be justified if it were based on truth instead of outright lies.
And note that this is Iituem. Iituem. When we first made the Magic Lance.
Since then Evicted has made it very clear that Crystal is only a bit lighter than Steel. Like in that quote, from Evicted (the guy who just so happens to be the one running the game right now and has been for months), where he said that plate armor made out of Crystal only has a modest weight reduction to steel armor.
And generally Evicted's (the guy who's running the game, if ya didn't know) fairly recent words should be taking priority over Iituem's words. Because, like I said, Evicted happens to be the one running the game.
Post by: helmacon on July 09, 2017, 02:42:21 am
Therefore, I propose an order for damage control
Operation Gathering Storm
We will purposely fall back a territory in the desert, managing a controlled retreat. During this time we will build extensive fortifications and supply lines in the area of the desert we still control. This is not a retreat, but a strategic withdraw. We will engage the enemy in limited operations to ensure that they advance no further than we intend. We will use the time bought from this operation to lay rails for the restless. Map the terrain, and figure likely routes of attack and solid defensive positions. We will erect semi permanent fortifications structures, instead of the typical hastily dug trench and a few sad huts.
In short, we will intentionally cede ground this year in order to ensure we advance next year.
Post by: RAM on July 09, 2017, 03:07:07 am
Have you realized how these little "fights" occur, buddy, pal, RAM? Because you're always the one starting it. You're always the one calling my designs, and I quote, "obviously useless." That's you. I'm merely pointing out why your criticisms of my designs are wrong.You are not "merely" pointing out your beliefs. You are extremely heavily insinuating, when not outright stating, that I am wrong as a consistent pattern, rather than just on individual instances. There is a very important difference. One is finding flaw in my arguments, the other is either a malicious or unwitting effort to reduce someone's reputation. It is also known as slander. It has very real and very important consequences and has killed a great many people. I am right to demand that you recant your lies about me. It would be evil of me to just ignore this sort of treatment. I like to think that I would do the same if you were mistreating someone else in the same way.
I am not wrong, as evidenced by your lack of evidence and reasoning. You state that I am wrong, you state that I make things up or don't understand. You do not provide arguments sufficient to demonstrate any of these things. You just keep calling me deficient without ever elaborating. SOMEBODY needs to denounce your slanderous inclinations and I am willing to do it. Stop harming people.
You are, also, very clearly slandering me.
Quote
You're always the one calling my designs, and I quote, "obviously useless." That's you.Now, sure, you could argue that it was not a direct quote, except you can't. You were trying to inflate the importance of your statement by implying that it was very strict and concrete. You put the statement in quotations marks, but that could just be emphasis. But you very clearly stated "I quote". You emphasised twice that it was a quote, that it was exact words. You state twice that I am the subject. You go out of your way to make it extremely clear that I am the one to blame here. That I am a problem. You further state that I "always" do this. There is no sane way to interpret that without it being a reference to multiple events.
So, in short, you say that I am constantly calling your designs, and I quote, "obviously useless". Now guess what happens when you search the thread for the terms "obviously" and "useless"... I only use that term when it is true, and incontrovertibly so.
Let's not bother with the sarcastic terms of endearment...
You blame all this on me. And you finally have a quote of me calling one of your designs obviously useless, so you are playing it for all that it is worth. but that is exactly what your design is. You make up some ridiculous story of apprentices possessing limitless magic. You are wrong, this is why: Our apprentices are repeatedly quoted as wanting to use actual magic but instead they are glorified generators. We have a single device, the cannon. It has a single magical component, an explosion spell. It requires three mages, why? Because they can only use one spell at a time? No, there is only one spell to use. Or is the spell so complex that it requires three people to understand it? Since when did we learn how to combine the efforts of multiple mages to achieve a more complex spell than would otherwise be possible? And then you try to defend yourself from rebuttal but pointing out yourself that magems prove that magic is a limited resource, both in their limited ability to do what mages do and the limited charge that they use to do it with. You try to say that it doesn't, with no explanation, and that is supposed to be convincing somehow? No, it is a power shortage.
Problem: We do not have enough power.
Solution: Add more magical components.
Result: detrimental.
Problem: Our bullets are blown off course.
Solution: Make our bullets lighter.
Result: detrimental.
I am VERY cautious with the term "obviously useless". I use it only in extreme cases. This is one such case.
Ugh, and you accuse me of retroconning my use of "ammunition"? Because I used repetition? Because "ammunition" means "bullet"? No, ammunition can refer to flamethrower-fuel, it can refer to whole shells, charges and all. It refers to a lot of things. In this case we are shooting bullets(literally just the projectile, the slang use of "bullet" to include the components that are expended and discarded when fired and do not travel to the target is incorrect according to the technical term, though obviously the slang meaning has legitimacy in general useage) using magic. Descrete bullets being launched with discrete spells using discrete quantities of magic. Ammunition is perfectly acceptable and the statement was largely figurative anyway. But go ahead an accuse me of lying about what I meant. You only dig your hole deeper.
How this game works well:
People make proposals.
People discuss proposals, some of which is criticism, some of which is "negative" and directed towards perceived flaws.
People refute this criticism or accept it and improve the design or accept it and argue that their design is good enough despite the flaws.
What Chiefwaffles does:
Makes a proposal.
Sees me very explicitly point out its flaws.
Completely denies all of them without justification and accuses me of being biased.
They COULD just ignore my post. Accept that someone is saying bad things about their work and not bother with it.
they COULD fix their designs.
They COULD make a reasoned argument as to how those flaws are false or irrelevant.
They COULD provide a mix of these things. Ignore what they want to, fix some things, and argue against others.
INSTEAD they argue against me, as a person, and ignore my ideas in the effort to refute my standing in the community to the point at which I am no longer regarded as credible.
They refute EVERY flaw that I cite while providing actual arguments only to a few select things which they think will make me look bad, but can';t even provide valid reasons in most of those cases.
They are systematically trying to destroy my reputation here because they can't or won't win an argument with reasons. I was willing to overlook this, and persist on pointing out what was wrong with their arguments instead of them as a person, but it is clear that this has gone beyond harmless aggressiveness and is a concerted(Though possibly ignorant, but at this point that looks nearly impossible.) effort to harm me.
I can admit when I am wrong. I just did. I was wrong to leave people' votes in the vote box for the new round of voting. Chiefwaffles still uses this nonsense:
Quote
Buddy, if you can't prove me wrong then just give up and realize that you're wrong. It's okay to be wrong! We're all wrong at many points in our lives. It's a part of being human, and it's okay to admit it.It is no longer plausible to accept this as a product of innocence. Chiefwaffles is openly attacking me. If people want me to stop these rants then all they have to do is acknowledge that Chiefwaffles is attacking me in an unjust fashion and with inaccurate statements.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 09, 2017, 03:52:31 am
Though maybe we can roll normally and not at a disadvantage? I'm not particularly in the mood to go looking for precedence, but I'm somewhat certain that evicted only rolls orders at a disadvantage when they're using equipment in a purpose not intended for by the equipment.
If people want me to stop these rants then all they have to do is acknowledge that Chiefwaffles is attacking me in an unjust fashion and with inaccurate statements.Poor little RAM!
Wait. I just...
I just realized something.
It has very real and very important consequences and has killed a great many people. I am right to demand that you recant your lies about me. It would be evil of me to just ignore this sort of treatment. I like to think that I would do the same if you were mistreating someone else in the same way.In the above quote RAM actually seriously compares my arguing with actual serious real life cases of slander severe enough to be labeled "killing people" and... well. It's actually pretty funny, this quote. I'd recommend reading this one. Bonus points for irony.
I am not wrong, as evidenced by your lack of evidence and reasoning.
SOMEBODY needs to denounce your slanderous inclinations and I am willing to do it. Stop harming people.More bonus points for irony!
You are well aware that we have a shortage of magic and are very obviously just calling me a liar for your own games, and it has long passed to point of being acceptable behaviour.
You obviously aren't even trying to win an argument, you are just trying to denounce my opinion at every opportunity and it is no longer possible to consider such extreme displays as anything other than intentional malice!
Please stop blatantly lying to everyone for your own self-aggrandisement. It is not subtle anymore, everyone can see that you are lying.
So your pointless attack at my integrity wouldn't even be justified if it were based on truth instead of outright lies.
Thankyou for the commentary, but I have a legitimate problem. I am poor at reading people so I have to consider all possibilities.The above one is actually pretty great. Note the bottom part - "the effects of 3 are active." That's RAM's fancy little way of literally calling me a "troll or sociopath." For disagreeing with him in a forum game. Great, huh?
1: Chiefwaffles honestly believes this stuff: I honestly wish to help them.
2: Chiefwaffles is actually correct: I would dearly like an explanation that I could learn from rather than just endless insults.
3: Chiefwaffles is a troll or sociopath who is trying to harm others for fun or basically murder people in order to benefit their own standing: I legitimately need to defend myself and should help others.
Now my main problem is that regardless of which or how many of these are true, the effects of 3 are active.
P.S.Now, see, this above one is interesting too. Because after I point this out as yet another clear insult, RAM does this little cherry on top:
Congratulations! You were actually right about something! Can you tell the difference?
I agree, I felt sort of bad about it, but there was a good reason for it too. You see, your statements are reliable incapable of determining accuracy and inaccuracy. If you are just a troll, then good for you! Well done! Advanced troll achievement gained!So he's saying "my statements are reliable incapable of determining accuracy and inaccuracy" and that I'm a troll and saying that if's he's wrong there then clearly I must suffer from a "very profound lack of awareness about how deduction works and I expect you find yourself wrong about a great many things ..."; well. Just read the quote. Another class act from RAM, really.
If not, then that statement is for you, and it is not an insult, it is am honest, if rhetorical, question. And an honest congratulations on your achievement. If that is the case then you clearly suffer from a very profound lack of awareness about how deduction works and I expect that you find yourself wrong about a great many things where you can't just shout people down. A bit more consideration might help you a great deal. Likely though, you are instead on the receiving end of such treatment, as is so often the case with such things... I really can't help you but do wish you the best.
Now let's do a little "intermission" here!
I am just looking for a little recognition that Chiefwaffles is slandering my ability to justify my statements, and is doing so with nothing to support those claims. We are both entitled to our own opinions. We can clearly state that one another are wrong. But making a concerted effort to establish that someone has no validity had better be backed up by some valid arguments or else it is just trying to murder someone. Which is exactly the correct term to use when you try to completely annul someone's presence.See a little irony here? Let's continue.
Most everyone else's proposals are actually viable. Yours lately have a habit of being fundamentally unworkable and missing a bunch of design elements in the final product. More to the point, these inevitable failures often get lots of votes, and thus it proves necessary to warn people that they are voting for something that will fail, which they generally do, generally for the reasons that I have stated.
It is just really sad that you do not understand the word "blatant". When your entire argument rests upon a very specific interpretations of a very vague sentence then that is not blatant.
Why is anyone still trying to convince this person? Their arguments are completely lacking in any evidence, reasoning, or even compromise. They are not trying to achieve any semblance of accuracy or balance, they are just trying to verbally beat you into submission so that it looks like you agree with them.
And really, does anyone here have the idiocy to honestly believe that antimagic resistance is a revision?And the above quote was in direct response to a statement of mine suggesting revising in antimagic resistance later.
And you were wrong multiple times. which is what happens when you realise that you can't argue with reason and try to just shout people down.
troll confirmed, or at least a complete lack of self-awareness.
Honestly, there is zero credibility to be found here.
It is obvious that your understanding of the game's boundaries is either lacking or you are deliberately making designs that are overambitious for some other reason.
You made a statement and that statement was false. You are making things up.
Well now you are being wilfully ignorant.
I shall stop here, though I assure you that RAM's insults to me do not. I've been going from most recent to oldest finding these quotes, and we've just hit the Combat Phase here. Said Combat Phase was where RAM really started going after me for whatever reason. His other insults are a bit more spread out and I have things to do other than compiling a list of insults, however unbelievable that may be.
In Which RAM Pretends Crystalworks Was His Idea, When He Argued Against The Crystalworks
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Not shown: A lot of extremely aggressive statements directed at me but aren't concise enough to be put in neat little quotes. Please click any of the quotes I have included to see this. And if you feel I haven't included sufficient context, please do click the quotes as I've put effort into ensuring they're all from their actual post. If a quote's link is wrong, just lemme know and I can fix it.
Oh, and just to be clear, RAM can probably argue that I'm "personally attacking" him too. But I stand by my statements involving him using unfounded assumptions. And that's not quite the same as him "not really" but actually calling me a sociopath, is it?
Post by: RAM on July 09, 2017, 06:24:43 am
@helmacon: I'm unsure about that. If we get a 1 on that we may just be giving up the desert when there was a chanceI am not convinced that there is a benefit to be gained from it within the game's structure. If they come out with something big and new then they can probably overwhelm whatever defences we build with our current designs. If I wanted to pull something special I would abandon the seas and side-corridors and just push everything down the middle for a quick win. But I don't personally want that.
Though maybe we can roll normally and not at a disadvantage? I'm not particularly in the mood to go looking for precedence, but I'm somewhat certain that evicted only rolls orders at a disadvantage when they're using equipment in a purpose not intended for by the equipment.
True enough, I did not provide justification for this. I ought to have, it is a serious issue and people ought to be warned. I am capable of admitting when I am wrong.It has very real and very important consequences and has killed a great many people. I am right to demand that you recant your lies about me. It would be evil of me to just ignore this sort of treatment. I like to think that I would do the same if you were mistreating someone else in the same way.In the above quote RAM actually seriously compares my arguing with actual serious real life cases of slander severe enough to be labeled "killing people" and... well. It's actually pretty funny, this quote. I'd recommend reading this one. Bonus points for irony.I am not wrong, as evidenced by your lack of evidence and reasoning.
Basically, it is a matter of isolation. Someone is consistently opposed in minor ways that seem innocuous individually but their consistency results in a general pattern of that being "okay" and "normal". People will just idly stand by while someone is consistently belittled, derided, and dismissed. A pattern grown of their opinion being irrelevant. In time they are completely ignored. They have nobody to turn to, or at least they believe as much due to the lack of evidence to the contrary, their enemies have many supporters, or at least appear to do so, and they have no means of expressing themselves. Resulting a great sense of hopelessness and a belief that, should they wish to be noticed, it will require something extreme, and that they will achieve nothing with their current lot. It is a dense feeling of hopelessness and a need to do foolish things in order to get attention, or to just run away from everything. It is an extremely strong impulse towards suicide, and I am extremely confident that it has been used as a murder weapon. Now I do not honestly believe that Chiefwaffles understands this. I am not accusing them of being a murderer. But I would not be surprised of they have worked with people who have become more withdrawn as they interact... However I am often surprised by humanity's lack of awareness. It would not surprise me if many people honestly believe that a suicide cannot be a murder. I even recall people who think that whistle-blowers are cowards...
But the fact is that this is an isolation tactic, and that isolation tactics are lethal.
You are not reading that correctly. The words "effects of" may be small but they are very important. I am saying that regardless of the cause of your actions, the outcome is consistent with your being a troll or sociopath. I listed three ways that that destination could be reached, two of them are not what you incorrectly claim I called you. Are you capable of admitting when you are wrong?Thankyou for the commentary, but I have a legitimate problem. I am poor at reading people so I have to consider all possibilities.The above one is actually pretty great. Note the bottom part - "the effects of 3 are active." That's RAM's fancy little way of literally calling me a "troll or sociopath." For disagreeing with him in a forum game. Great, huh?
1: Chiefwaffles honestly believes this stuff: I honestly wish to help them.
2: Chiefwaffles is actually correct: I would dearly like an explanation that I could learn from rather than just endless insults.
3: Chiefwaffles is a troll or sociopath who is trying to harm others for fun or basically murder people in order to benefit their own standing: I legitimately need to defend myself and should help others.
Now my main problem is that regardless of which or how many of these are true, the effects of 3 are active.
And then we have this mess. Two things are required:
1: Actually read what is written.
2: Check the timestamps.
In Which RAM Pretends Crystalworks Was His Idea, When He Argued Against The CrystalworksThe crystalworks came after my steamworks. Which would have been better on account of stacking with the extra +1 from the mountains, and we could have invested in metals as nice as the crystals are, while using the forming ability of crystals. But that is unimportant. I never claimed to design the crystalworks, and I do not wish to lay such a claim. What I claimed was "a large-project oriented crystalworks". Note how the adjective there denotes a specific instance?
Let's go for one last quote, in which RAM makes a bold-faced lie:The reason that we won was my idea of a large-project oriented crystalworks. We got cheap guns and cheap ships. Those cheap ships made the turn for us. The seas are a massive power-factor and if Moskurg focuses on land then they will massively regret the sea advantage. The cheap cannons held our advantage. The protector, while useful, really wasn't a factor.Note how the Crystalworks was my design.
Now comes the time to check timestamps...
Unless you have some clear idea as to how to reduce the expense, such as ... making a giant crystalworks to reduce the effect of volume on expense
Revision: Crystalworks Mk2I had the idea first. And I had the idea recently enough to reasonably expect inspiration, and the post was edited late enough that it could well have been printed up over hours. Granted, ti is entirely possible that Chiefwaffles came up with it independently, but it was still an idea that I had. And I had no problem with letting Chiefwaffles print it up. I just kind of wish that it hadn't ended up being so overambitious. No, we are not getting a hard-counter shield that stops antimagic attacks from hitting us as a minor part of a revision. So i came up with a counter proposal that focused on making nice curves instead and mildly advocated it. Fortunately the antiantimagic shield part was ignored.
According to our Crystalworks engineers, the scale of the designs such as the Steam Engine (and now the IDE) as well as the AS-LFV-1 are simply too great to benefit from the cost reduction the Crystalworks provides.
Oh, and just to be clear, RAM can probably argue that I'm "personally attacking" him too. But I stand by my statements involving him using unfounded assumptions. And that's not quite the same as him "not really" but actually calling me a sociopath, is it?I would argue that you made frequent personal attacks long before I did so, and my personal attacks are defensive in nature, simply identifying dangerous patterns to your behaviour. I don't really need to go back through the timestamps to see when you first started accusing me of making things up just to insult your ideas due to personal bias do I?
As for being a sociopath? I am referring to the very high probability that you are a sociopath based upon evidence. Note that you may well not be aware of it if you are, and it is not so much of an insult as people believe. I myself don't conform well to human standards. It just represents someone who is very dangerous. I strongly suggest that you investigate your own mind and attempt to determine exactly what your own nature is, it can be a very useful thing to know. Your arguing style is extremely manipulative and yet extremely lacking in data or justification chains. It certainly appears as though you are aiming for social domination with no regard for the harm that may be caused in doing so. Consider this: If I were to be banned from this forum as a result of your conduct, you would most likely feel pride at your actions being consequential and guilt at causing loss, joy in being rid of me and concern for my loss. To what proportion do you suppose you would feel these things? Don't feel the need to respond to that, the answer is for your own consideration.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 09, 2017, 10:25:27 am
Post by: evictedSaint on July 09, 2017, 02:37:07 pm
If you find yourself writing a novel in response to another player, take a minute, stand up, and go for a walk. This is just a game - everyone here wants the best for Arstotzka, and just because you disagree on the way to go about that doesn't mean the other guy is an idiot or invalid.
No name-calling, no 2,000-word replies explaining in excruciating detail why the other guy is wrong, and no more passive aggressive barbed comments.
If I need to say this again, I will give Moskurg an Espionage Credit to reflect the deteriorating cohesion in their enemy's design team.
You have 1 more revision, then you need to decide how to deal with the Trader.
Post by: helmacon on July 09, 2017, 03:35:01 pm
Theoreticly, we should get two credits as well...
Post by: andrea on July 09, 2017, 03:39:51 pm
edit: waaaaait a second. Is the ship he is in by any chance a moskurg one?
I remember that Es said some time ago in discord that there are 2 traders, one for each. Maybe they switched places?
Post by: RAM on July 09, 2017, 04:24:17 pm
Quote
0 Aethergem Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504773#msg7504773):
0 Academy Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 Temporary Wizards (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 Weightite works (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 Gemerators (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 Magegem Capacity Upgrade (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504894#msg7504894):
1 Aethergem recharging pack (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505077#msg7505077): RAM
0 Aethergem Fitting (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505146#msg7505146):
0 Better Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505162#msg7505162):
0 Duststorm Equalizer (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505224#msg7505224):
0 Growing Crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505258#msg7505258):
0 U.N.C.L. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505430#msg7505430):
0 S.A.F.E. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505526#msg7505526):
1 Crystal Ammunition Fabricator (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7506128#msg7506128): Chiefwaffles
0 Forced Force Flourishes (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7506145#msg7506145):
0 Save the credit:
Orders:
2 Buy Chief and RAM a room so they can hatefuck and get it out of their system: Draignean, helmacon
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 09, 2017, 05:45:59 pm
The normally harmless flare spell is dialed up to 11 and fired directly at the enemy. The resulting flash is hard to look at from a distance but completely devastating to anyone it is directed at.
Post by: helmacon on July 09, 2017, 06:23:10 pm
Blind-FlaresMake that a flashbang flare and you have my vote.
The normally harmless flare spell is dialed up to 11 and fired directly at the enemy. The resulting flash is hard to look at from a distance but completely devastating to anyone it is directed at.
Post by: RAM on July 09, 2017, 08:10:01 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 09, 2017, 08:23:11 pm
They're nearing the ultimate evolution of the cannons. It removes our need to reload cannons.
First, imagine if all our cannons became self-feeding. So our soldiers could simply insert a new magazine/belt/clip/whatever instead of having to constantly insert new rounds every time the cannon fires.
This would be huge.
But then take a step further. What if we didn't need to reload our weapons at all? That's what the CAF does. Instead of our soldiers having to reload clips or bullets and going through the troubles of developing that tech, we can just easily create a weapon where reloading is a thing of the past.
We won't ever have to develop complicated ammo-feeding systems for our tech. We can simple stick a weapon anywhere on a vehicle, and wire it to the vehicle's battery/generator.
Imagine - a battlemage with an AS-Rx that doesn't have to reload his weapon. He can constantly fire without ever stopping for reloading.
Imagine - a HA1 that can fire non-stop without ever stopping for reloading. Nearly unending artillery barrages.
Imagine - AS-HAC-1 emplacements that can quickly fill the sky with unending bullets, stopping Moskurgers from ever trying to come close to our stuff.
Imagine - the end of an ammunition shortage. We'd never have to worry about delivering shells again.
And this is possible. Crystal Ammunition Fabricator is actually a revision. I do tend to be ambitious with my proposals, yes, but as ambitious as this may seem in its effects, it's completely possible.
We already know exactly how to use circuits to create crystal. We know how to easily program different shapes in these circuits. These circuits can be remarkably small for simple crystal shapes (like bullets/shells). They're fairly energy efficient (Crystalworks with tons of circuits doesn't require many apprentices).
All we need to do is apply these circuits to our cannons.
Crystal Ammunition Fabricator is the tech of the future. Allowing for non-stop artillery barrages, actual competent infantry weaponry, and much much more.
But with that done, have some alternative flare ideas! These are mostly based on VoidSlayer's Blind-Flares and are more-so just my take on the idea. I'm not going to try to convince anyone to do them and feel free to take them and put your own variation on it. I'm just putting them out here.
Also please don't put these on the votes quote unless someone votes for one of them.
Revision: Flashwand
A small "wand"-type crystal device hooked up to an AAA Aethergem. (Or AAA Magegem if an AAA Aethergem is too big. I'm confused about AGem sizes since the "size of a man's forearm" comparison for Aethergem wasn't naming one specific AGem size.)
The Flashwand uses scroll circuitry to, when activated by any kind of user, emit an extremely bright flare forwards or into the sky.
The flare can serve as a regular flare, but is significantly brighter allowing it to blind any nearby aerial enemies. Looking at the flare from the ground isn't disabling, but is also not recommended.
While our extensive knowledge in modifying fireballs ((e.g. the +6 on the Blastball)) this shouldn't be a problem, but to shorten the time spent on this part of the revision the energy cost is raised so a flare takes a full AAA-AGem charge and the user must wait to recharge it afterwards. ((Note: An old unimproved AAA Magegem could power a single flare and an old AA Magegem multiple flares. Considering a new AA Magegem is better than an old A Magegem, it'd make sense that an AAA Aethergem could power multiple flares. We're increasing the energy cost to reduce the complexity of this design.))
Any aerial entity within range of the flare should be effectively completely blinded, either causing them to crash or forcing them out of the area. If somehow an airship is caught in the area, we expect to be able to at least disable its offensive capabilities.
TL;DR: A re-useable wand that shoots out a more-blinding version of the Flare. Meant primarily to be used for defense from aerial attack in situations where there aren't enough cannons to prevent aerial attacks in more standard ways, but it can also be used as a (slightly less effective?) flare. AAA Aethergem allows for one use between charges, and the power cost of the flare is increased to be a full AAA gem in order to decrease complexity of the design.
Revision: Flashball
A small crystalline sphere with an AAA Magegem and scroll circuitry for a specific flare variation.
The Flare emitted by the Flashball is designed to take up the full AAA Magegem ((Which should be able to power multiple flares. See italicized comment like this one regarding this same topic in Flashwand design.)) in order to create an extremely blinding flashing effect.
Any men in the range of a Flashball should be blinded for some period of time after the Flashball goes off, effectively completely disabling them.
The Flashball is a very small Crystal ball enclosing circuitry and Magegems. It actually houses two AAA Magegems - one for the timer and one for the actual spell. It's easy to hold in one's hand and is quite light. A small bit of crystal glass allows one to look at the timer AAA Magegem as an indication of the time left until detonation.
The Flashball uses a circuit timer. The user presses very firmly on a button situated on the Flashball for a few seconds, then after the timer Magegem starts draining, they can throw it when ready and avert their eyes. Caution is recommended as if the Flashball is too close, even looking away and shielding one's eyes may not be enough to disable the effect.
The Flare inside is tweaked to sacrifice power efficiency (thus only one per AAA Magegem), velocity, and duration all for ligh, creating an extraordinarily blinding flash. This should be easy given how easy it was to revise much more difficult versions of our Fireballs ((e.g. +6 on Blastball revision)) and thus shouldn't take time away from putting the spell inside circuitry+crystal.
If possible, we'd like to create a variation fit for use in cannons, but this being a revision, it's completely understandable if this particular attempt yields nothing. We don't expect this to happen, but maybe if we wish hard enough
Considering the fact that it's made of Crystal ((Crystalworks bonus!)), and uses cheap AAA Magegems, manufacturing this should be extraordinarily easy. The project shouldn't be difficult as well, as this is merely putting a tweaked flare spell in circuitry around an AAA Magegem and encasing it in crystal.
TL;DR: A cool hopefully-and-probably Cheap Flashbang for use by mundane soldiers.
Both revisions should be possible given that we can practically effortlessly modify our flares/fireballs now. (+6 on Blastball!) So the revisions are pretty much just slapping on circuitry and a crystal exterior.
But now for one more revision. Probably not really needed since aerial attacks aren't exactly a huge problem now.
Revision: Timed Fireball
We modify our Fireballs to include an optional timing component "chosen" by the casting mage in the field.
This is extremely simple and easy and should allow our fireballs to be effectively used to combat short-range Moskurg aerial attacks, as, for example, a timed PSF can simply be timed to detonate at some point in the sky. As the fireball has a devastating AoE, this should allow it to be much more useful. Our mages can simply throw fireballs in the air and have them hit enemy targets, regardless of whether the fireball actually hits the carpet or not.
@RAM:
Our flares definitely don't detonate. It was never explicitly stated, but flares are brighter fireballs. Fireballs only "detonate" when they hit solid ground and release whatever combustive material it has. Flares are just brighter fireballs with the "detonation" removed, really.
We also could definitely easily revise in a timed component to any of our spells, though. And we already have timer circuits.
Post by: Kadzar on July 09, 2017, 08:39:57 pm
Quote
0 Aethergem Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504773#msg7504773):[/quote]
0 Academy Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 Temporary Wizards (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 Weightite works (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 Gemerators (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
1 Magegem Capacity Upgrade (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504894#msg7504894): Kadzar
1 Aethergem recharging pack (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505077#msg7505077): RAM
0 Aethergem Fitting (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505146#msg7505146):
0 Better Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505162#msg7505162):
0 Duststorm Equalizer (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505224#msg7505224):
0 Growing Crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505258#msg7505258):
0 U.N.C.L. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505430#msg7505430):
0 S.A.F.E. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505526#msg7505526):
1 Crystal Ammunition Fabricator (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7506128#msg7506128): Chiefwaffles
0 Forced Force Flourishes (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7506145#msg7506145):
0 Save the credit:
Orders:
2 Buy Chief and RAM a room so they can hatefuck and get it out of their system: Draignean, helmacon
Post by: RAM on July 09, 2017, 09:30:05 pm
Imagine - a battlemage with an AS-Rx that doesn't have to reload his weapon. He can constantly fire without ever stopping for reloading.I vaguely recall that the flares might have lit up only at the summit of their flight, which in context would count as a detonation. I do not recall though and am not bothering to look it up. Extrapolating from what fireballs do is not really helpful. Ugh, I probably ought to look it up but, ugh... flares were one of those repeatedly proposed things, weren't they? Probably more painful than most to find...
Imagine - a HA1 that can fire non-stop without ever stopping for reloading. Nearly unending artillery barrages.
Imagine - AS-HAC-1 emplacements that can quickly fill the sky with unending bullets, stopping Moskurgers from ever trying to come close to our stuff.
Imagine - the end of an ammunition shortage. We'd never have to worry about delivering shells again.
...
@RAM:
Our flares definitely don't detonate. It was never explicitly stated, but flares are brighter fireballs. Fireballs only "detonate" when they hit solid ground and release whatever combustive material it has. Flares are just brighter fireballs with the "detonation" removed, really.
We also could definitely easily revise in a timed component to any of our spells, though. And we already have timer circuits.
I do, genuinely, want a bullet summoning device. But first we need to sort out the power shortages and work up a bullet that would be effective. Otherwise we are spending a revision that we cannot yet make use of due to power shortages and which we will have to revise again to adapt it to effective bullets because crystals are too light to make effective ordnance. There are reasons why lead is famous as a bullet material, and uranium is a popular military round. Bullet density matters. We currently need something better than steel to account for their wind effects, crystal is worse than steel at defeating wind effects. We would be better off designing "wind immune" crystals that "cut" through the air leaving magical gashes through wind... And then there is the added bulk, it would normally work best on the small-arms which currently have low magic-costs and high reloading-times but the added bulk of three summoning circuits would likely hit them the harder due to their dependency upon mobility and handling. It is not a terrible idea, but this is the wrong time and the wrong material.
Also, as a revision to make a mobile fabricator that only prints bullets it seems to definitely be a revision in my humble opinion. Integrating it into weapons? Probably still a revision. Integrating it into all of our firearms at once? Plausible, but pushing it. Making it summon fast enough? I figure if it is just a bullet, then it will be pretty quick, but people have suggested previously that small things won't summon quickly, that we would be stuck with the casting time of the old lances. So that is open to interpretation whether that is a modification at all or and extremely difficult revision by itself. And the sequential summoning things likely an added hassle on top. I wouldn't say it won't work, but it is likely to lack notable features on a bad roll.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 09, 2017, 09:53:27 pm
A Fireball is a ball of fire that goes from its origin to its destination all while in that distinctive ball of fire form. Then in most works of fiction (and in Wands Race), it explodes once it hits its target.
Considering that Flares don't have any timing component, they shouldn't detonate (if they can) in mid-air. If they did detonate, it would likely only be when they hit something. Which wouldn't be particularly useful for flares.
That and flares are brighter fireballs with lethality removed. So it would make sense that flares are basically like a traveling fireball that's extra bright and that doesn't explode when it hits anything.
Also real-life flares (in media at least) appear to emit constant light immediately after being fired. The light just eventually tapers off as the reaction runs its course.
Really, both our stances on crystal ammunition are conjecture. We just don't know enough about the difference in weight between steel and crystal. I'm hoping to get a definite answer on this soon from Evicted, though.
As for the bulk, the CAF really isn't intended for use in small-arms. The AS-R1 itself is a revision dead-end in my opinion. It provides a great foundation for future ventures and is fairly useful now, but if we really want to make an infantry weapon the AS-R2 should be done.
The CAF does help here, though. If we develop the CAF beforehand it makes the AS-R2 much easier to design or lets us put more stuff in the design as we won't have to bother with incorporating the CAF into it when we've never done it before.
And I agree that integrating it into all of our weapons is pushing it, but Evicted's been fine with this kind of thing in the past. As long as we're not abusing prioritized aspects of revisions/designs, it should be fine.
We design it for something like the AS-HAC first, then if we have time we extend it to other cannons. Which shouldn't be hard as it's really just changing the size of the projectile fabricated.
Post by: helmacon on July 09, 2017, 10:00:00 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 09, 2017, 10:20:50 pm
1.) The CAF can apply first and foremost to the AS-HAC-1, the cannon that would benefit the most from this. The HAC (Hybrid Autocanon) was designed to be later revised for self-feeding. Imagine a point defense cannon that doesn't require reloading. This will turn the HAC from a 15th century swivel cannon to an actual fiercesome weapon of war. Infantry will be mowed down as they try to past. Aerial attacks made impossible as the skies are filled with crystal.
The AS-HAC-1 also does not use any special ammunition at the moment, too.
2.) The CAF does not replace breech-loading. We will still be able to use special ammunition where needed. Even if we have a Cheap Explosive or +Range shell (I think we do?), the much faster rate of fire can prove more useful at times instead of explosive/+range. But for the (probably majority of) times that we do need explosive/range shell, we can use them at the same effectiveness as before.
3.) Potential! We're not restrained by the rules of physics. We have magic. With another revision or design or whatever, we'll be able to summon explosive ammunition. Remember that Magegems are made out of Crystal Glass. Circuits are ultimately just a material carved in a different way. (We actually have crystal circuits but don't use them because we made them before regenerative crystal and heat fluctuations + no regen made crystal impossible to use for circuits at the time.) It's very possible to eventually create special ammunition with the CAF. Then we'd be firing explosive shells at breakneck speeds!
Furthermore, again, this isn't just an upgrade for the HA1. This is an improvement to our weaponry tech which will be extremely useful both now and for the rest of the game. We can make an infantry rifle that doesn't require reloading easily with this! We can do so many things.
Post by: RAM on July 09, 2017, 10:45:26 pm
Magic Apparatus: General Edition
We build a light crystal box that contains a AA magem and two AAA Aethergems. This box is held upon a soldier's back using shoulder and waist straps of broad leather. The second component is a crystal 'wand'. The wand consists of a stick with a socket at one end, adjacent to the socket, sticking out of the side, is a handle, above the handle is a blunt, square hook, and at right-angles to all three is a cord. The socket receives cylindrical spell-circuits to be channelled through the wand and the hook affixes to a sash which also functions as a bandoleer for spell-circuits. The cord is composes of a simple circuit printed on leather that is then smeared with tar and rolled into a cylinder. This cord transfers magic from the generator pack on the back into the wand for use by spells.
Circuit-cylinders to be designed, in order of priority:
Flare
Caltrops
Fog
minor firewall(from steam-engines)
Smallest fire/forceballs
minor Frost aura(from condensers and cooling units)
Hopefully this would replace apprentices in scouting parties, allowing them to survive more often and granting us more wizards, along with a highly utilitarian device. Of course, infantry upgrades don't seem all that useful right now, but the hope is there that it might give our skirmish troops enough of an advantage for there to be an actual skirmish phase this time.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 09, 2017, 11:10:16 pm
After some questions for Evicted and some research, here's my current conclusion on the effectiveness of crystal bullets.
First, here are some answers from evicted on Discord:
Quote from: Chiefwaffles (Discord)
... on a small-scale (like bullets) would the weight difference between crystal and steel cause any differences in effectiveness as projectiles?
Quote from: evictedSaint (Discord)
your crystal is notably lighter than steel, though still denser than water. It would not be as effective as lead, i guess?
Quote from: evictedSaint (Discord)
You use iron shells
Second, I'm assuming we're using cast iron shells. I don't exactly have much knowledge surrounding metallurgy, but cast iron appears to be "pure" iron that comes to mind when one says "iron".
So according to the first result from online searches,
Lead weighs 11.34 grams/cubic centimeter.
Cast Iron weighs 7.208 grams/cubic centimeter.
Third, note this quote from evicted:
Quote from: evictedSaint (Discord)
It would not be as effective as lead, i guess?This was in response to me asking the effectiveness of crystal ammunition.
Considering that we currently use Cast Iron ammunition, and that Cast Iron weighs 63.563% as much as Lead...
I think it's safe to say that crystal ammunition would very likely be as effective as our current iron ammunition.
Post by: helmacon on July 09, 2017, 11:35:39 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 09, 2017, 11:43:34 pm
My point is that Evicted explicitly compares crystal to lead in terms of effectiveness, when I asked him about crystal and steel. I ask him about the effectiveness of crystal bullets and steel bullets, and he says crystal bullets would be worse than lead bullets.
This doesn't explicitly say it, but it, along with my other information, implies that crystal is roughly as effective as steel in ammunition. And cast iron + steel have pretty similar weights too, I believe.
If someone asks "Is A worse than B?" and the answer is "A is worse than C" and you know that B is also worse than C, the implication is that A is not notably worse than B, as there's a reason the person doesn't say "A is worse than B."
Post by: helmacon on July 09, 2017, 11:55:54 pm
Quote
If someone asks "Is A worse than B?" and the answer is "A is worse than C" and you know that B is also worse than C, the implication is that A is not notably worse than B, as there's a reason the person doesn't say "A is worse than B."
that's... Not how logic works. The above statements tell you nothing about the relationship between A and B unless you make some pretty big assumptions. I would ask Es for clarification here.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 10, 2017, 12:03:13 am
I asked evicted the same question on Discord three times.
The first two times evicted essentially dodged the question. I don't know if it was intentional, but they did it.
The first time, I asked them "would the weight difference between crystal and steel cause any differences in effectiveness as projectiles?"
He tells me that crystal is less effective than lead.
The second time, I ask them "So compared to our current steel(?) shells, would there be any noticeable decrease in effectiveness if we switched to crystal bullets?"
He corrects my usage of steel, saying our shells our iron, and says nothing else.
The third time, I ask them "Since you made the comparison to lead, I'm assuming we shouldn't have problems going from iron->crystal?"
Then he says this before going offline!
Quote from: evictedSaint (Discord)
Im gonna need to limit you to a dozen questions per turn, because this is getting kind of ridiculous
It's actually really frustrating.
And that's how logic works, yes. In a conversational context, at least. It's not about things like mathematical relationships but rather the implication.
Why would Evicted compare crystal to lead? Doing so implies that lead is the first material that would be notably more effective than crystal (or iron). If crystal is less effective than iron, then chances are evicted would have said that instead of comparing crystal to lead.
Post by: evictedSaint on July 10, 2017, 12:06:17 am
It's actually really frustrating.
Post by: RAM on July 10, 2017, 12:11:33 am
"not as effective as lead" is not the same as "more effective than iron".
"Effectiveness as projectiles" is somewhat vague given the context. Technically accurate but it can get caught up in things like penetration and stopping power. We only care about flight performance when it comes to brute-forcing through their wind-deflection.
Those responses seem uncertain to me due to the question marks. Also, I do not believe that discord is an official source of information on the game. Convenient, no doubt, but such thingsare best handled on the thread where everyone can see them and the full context.
so... I don't really want to have to deal with discord stuff... But the datapoints that I get are:
Lead is greater than crystal for "projectiles".
Crystal weighs an otherwise unknown value between one and one seventh as much as our current shells.
Lead is soft, which makes it good against soft targets, but poor at penetration. As a bullet it can be regarded as very bad for certain niche roles. Its flight characteristics, though, are superior to steel, as air will not deform lead at any sane velocity. As a "thing to project to a distance" it is good, but "projectile" can be inferred to mean "bullet"...
So crystals could weigh two times as much as water, and be one third as effective as our current shells. My feeling from the thread is that it is probably close to four or five times as much as water, but I really couldn't be certain. I believe that steel is slightly, well, less than 10%, heavier than iron, so it is not impossible that it is heavier than iron, but I cannot see that being borne out from the descriptions of it.
I do not know of any qualities that crystal has that would influence it's flight-path other than pure density. Crystals have fractal designs, which tend towards rough surfaces at a chemical scale. Metals tend to be smooth. It really isn't possible to say that one would have a more aerodynamic surface than the other, but the metal is probably easier to polish while the crystal is probably easier to forge smooth in the factory, so I guess it depends how gritty they get in transit? Crystals do grow under certain circumstances, so they might tend to stick together and deform if left adjacent to one another for a long time? But really, the surface is an unknown factor, but metal comes highly recommended as a projectile by all the world's armies, so it certainly isn't 'bad'. So all that we really have to go on is density? I mean, sure, other things come into play once you actually hit the thing, but right now we are incapable of attacking their long-ranged stuff as it is faster and longer ranged that anything that we have.
So the continued value of cannons, as derived from its ammunition, is a matter of density. And crystal is an unknown density in a range which includes densities less than a seventh of that of our current bullets.
We know already that our current bullets are not good enough due to their susceptibility to wind. We know that lead would be better. Revising crystal works to summon something more like lead, such as weightite, is confirmed as an upgrade, and would be a better revision given that range is our current problem. I did not notice any significant problems with rate-of-fire last turn.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 10, 2017, 12:16:14 am
You're trying to get me to say "yes, this thing you want to attempt is a good/bad idea" which I refuse to do.
It's actually really frustrating.
If for whatever reason evicted literally refuses to answer a simple question well within the bounds of reasonable in-context knowledge like this, it means it's the rolls. If we get a 3, then Evicted may say we get what we want but the bullets aren't as good.
Also he could have told me this! Please, if you're getting annoyed by my questions, just tell me you don't want to answer it instead of giving me weird semi-relevant answers that only serve to make me more curious. Good for both parties.
tl;dr: Don't worry about the density, then. If Evicted refuses to answer this then it means it's just going to be a possible bug if we get rolls worthy of bugs.
Post by: evictedSaint on July 10, 2017, 11:13:05 am
Post by: helmacon on July 10, 2017, 11:30:06 am
Post by: evictedSaint on July 10, 2017, 11:34:29 am
Post by: helmacon on July 10, 2017, 02:13:38 pm
Post by: Draignean on July 10, 2017, 02:39:30 pm
Can someone add those, I am at work
I could be wrong, and I could be referencing the wrong design, but here we are.
Quote
0 Aethergem Shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504773#msg7504773):
0 Academy Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 Temporary Wizards (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 Weightite works (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
0 Gemerators (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504843#msg7504843):
1 Magegem Capacity Upgrade (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7504894#msg7504894): Kadzar
1 Aethergem recharging pack (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505077#msg7505077): RAM
0 Aethergem Fitting (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505146#msg7505146):
0 Better Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505162#msg7505162):
0 Duststorm Equalizer (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505224#msg7505224):
0 Growing Crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505258#msg7505258):
0 U.N.C.L. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505430#msg7505430):
0 S.A.F.E. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7505526#msg7505526):
1 Crystal Ammunition Fabricator (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7506128#msg7506128): Chiefwaffles
0 Forced Force Flourishes (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7506145#msg7506145):
3 Blind Flares (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7506658#msg7506658): Voidslayer, Helmacon, Draignean
0 Save the credit:
Orders:
2 Buy Chief and RAM a room so they can hatefuck and get it out of their system: Draignean, helmacon
Post by: evictedSaint on July 10, 2017, 06:27:50 pm
Revision: Blind-Flares [4+6]
A very basic tweak of our existing flares, "Blind-Flares" are our normal flares tweaked for maximum brightness. A very basic cantrip that even the most fumbling of apprentices can learn, the blind-flare is an easy, quick self-defense spell that can be shot off at a moments notice. The flare winks out of existence once it strikes an object, but during the time it is in the air it is very bright, white, and fast.
Does not work if the enemy has their eyes closed. Will blind the user, unless they have their eyes closed. Cheap.
What do you do about the trader? Where do you deploy Myark?
Post by: helmacon on July 10, 2017, 06:41:45 pm
@ES did our flash flares get the sound effect too? Like a flash bang was the idea I think.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 10, 2017, 06:42:55 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 10, 2017, 06:52:30 pm
Quote
Myark:
1 - Jungle: helmacon
1 - Desert: FallacyofUrist
Trader:
1 - Seize his ship!: helmacon
1 - Give him crystal axes, lances, and armor... conjured the old-fashioned way rather than with the Crystalworks: FallacyofUrist
Orders:
3 - Buy Chief and RAM a room so they can hatefuck and get it out of their system: Draignean, helmacon, FallacyofUrist
He might get violent if we seize his ship. How about we cheat him out of his crystal instead. If he complains about them disappearing before he leaves instead of next time he shows up, we'll know he's descended from the original trader in some way instead of being a pirate.
As for Myark, we have 2 progress on the enemy homeland. We are 2 land away from winning this. We need to push this!
Post by: RAM on July 10, 2017, 07:00:05 pm
Quote
Myark:
1 - Jungle: helmacon
1 - Desert: FallacyofUrist
Trader:
1 - Seize his ship!: helmacon
1 - Give him crystal axes, lances, and armor... conjured the old-fashioned way rather than with the Crystalworks: FallacyofUrist
Orders:
3 - Buy Chief and RAM a room so they can hatefuck and get it out of their system: Draignean, helmacon, FallacyofUrist
0 - Redirect all our forces to the middle lane:
0 - Withdraw form the front-line of the desert and build a line of fortifications:
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 10, 2017, 07:04:14 pm
Guess what fortifications are weak against.
Until we can create crystal fortresses, fortifications more significant than a trench are a bad idea.
Post by: RAM on July 10, 2017, 08:02:05 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 10, 2017, 09:55:44 pm
He might get violent if we seize his ship. How about we cheat him out of his crystal instead. If he complains about them disappearing before he leaves instead of next time he shows up, we'll know he's descended from the original trader in some way instead of being a pirate.
As for Myark, we have 2 progress on the enemy homeland. We are 2 land away from winning this. We need to push this!
Seems like a great way to repeat the same thing from last time, Fallacy. Where we miss out on an expense credit because we screwed him last time.
Instead,
Give them conjured crystal axes, crystal lances, and Combat Armor, and ~2 apprentices (or extra if they need more for maintenance) to keep the stuff maintained. Tell them about the maintenance requirements of the conjured crystal. Tell the apprentices in secret to report back somehow the fate of the original merchant and the state of the Chinese Academy. And to refuse maintenance if they observe any notably illegal acts.
We get the expense credit guilt-free with some potential information later!
Really, think about it.
They aren't in the Fog-O-War. The Merchant was given a Fog-O-War last time and he loved it. If they really did do something bad with the original merchant, then wouldn't we see the fog-o-war? If the merchant loved the F-O-W so much last time, then it must be a highly advanced+capable vessel in comparison to their standard ones and it wouldn't make sense for a pirate to capture the merchant but not his supercool ship.
Also, we have people in china, don't we? The whole Academy thing we set up in china? It seems like we would know if something bad happened over there.
Quote
Myark:I sure do love highly complicated orders!
1 - Jungle: helmacon
2 - Desert: FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles
Trader:
1 - Seize his ship!: helmacon
1 - Give him crystal axes, lances, and armor... conjured the old-fashioned way rather than with the Crystalworks: FallacyofUrist
1 - Give him crystal axes, crystal lances, and combat armor, all conjured to eventually dispel without maintenance + tell them of maintenance requirements (don't mention the crystalworks). Send minimum amount of apprentices to maintain everything along. Give apprentices secret orders to eventually find a way to report back about state of Chinese Academy + old merchant + info about new trader and to report back+refuse to help if they witness highly illegal acts: Chiefwaffles
0 - Give him Crystal Axes, Crystal Lances, Combat Armor, and two apprentices (as "tokens of appreciation/ambassadors/diplomats/[diplomatic excuse here]"). Give apprentices secret orders to report back about state of Chinese Academy + old merchant + more information about this new trader:
Orders:
3 - Buy Chief and RAM a room so they can hatefuck and get it out of their system: Draignean, helmacon, FallacyofUrist
Also, I included another vote thing (without my vote) to just do the same thing but make the stuff machine crystal and the apprentices just a "gift of cooperation" or "diplomats" or "ambassadors" or something. If people want to do this instead I'll gladly vote for it.
Post by: RAM on July 10, 2017, 10:12:51 pm
Quote
Myark:
1 - Jungle: helmacon
2 - Desert: FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles
Trader:
1 - Seize his ship!: helmacon
1 - Give him crystal axes, lances, and armor... conjured the old-fashioned way rather than with the Crystalworks: FallacyofUrist
1 - Give him crystal axes, crystal lances, and combat armor, all conjured to eventually dispel without maintenance + tell them of maintenance requirements (don't mention the crystalworks). Send minimum amount of apprentices to maintain everything along. Give apprentices secret orders to eventually find a way to report back about state of Chinese Academy + old merchant + info about new trader and to report back+refuse to help if they witness highly illegal acts: Chiefwaffles
0 - Give him Crystal Axes, Crystal Lances, Combat Armor, and two apprentices (as "tokens of appreciation/ambassadors/diplomats/[diplomatic excuse here]"). Give apprentices secret orders to report back about state of Chinese Academy + old merchant + more information about this new trader:
Orders:
3 - Buy Chief and RAM a room so they can hatefuck and get it out of their system: Draignean, helmacon, FallacyofUrist
0 - Redirect all our forces to the middle lane:
0 - Withdraw form the front-line of the desert and build a line of fortifications:
Post by: Andres on July 12, 2017, 02:35:06 am
Quote
Myark:
1 - Jungle: helmacon
2 - Desert: FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles
1 - The Ship!: Andres
Trader:
2 - Seize his ship!: helmacon
1 - Give him crystal axes, lances, and armor... conjured the old-fashioned way rather than with the Crystalworks: FallacyofUrist
1 - Give him crystal axes, crystal lances, and combat armor, all conjured to eventually dispel without maintenance + tell them of maintenance requirements (don't mention the crystalworks). Send minimum amount of apprentices to maintain everything along. Give apprentices secret orders to eventually find a way to report back about state of Chinese Academy + old merchant + info about new trader and to report back+refuse to help if they witness highly illegal acts: Chiefwaffles
0 - Give him Crystal Axes, Crystal Lances, Combat Armor, and two apprentices (as "tokens of appreciation/ambassadors/diplomats/[diplomatic excuse here]"). Give apprentices secret orders to report back about state of Chinese Academy + old merchant + more information about this new trader:
Orders:
3 - Buy Chief and RAM a room so they can hatefuck and get it out of their system: Draignean, helmacon, FallacyofUrist
0 - Redirect all our forces to the middle lane:
0 - Withdraw form the front-line of the desert and build a line of fortifications:
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on July 12, 2017, 03:37:02 am
ftfyQuoteMyark:
1 - Jungle: helmacon
2 - Desert: FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles
1 - The Ship!: Andres, RAM
Trader:
2 - Seize his ship!: helmacon, Andres, RAM
1 - Give him crystal axes, lances, and armor... conjured the old-fashioned way rather than with the Crystalworks: FallacyofUrist
1 - Give him crystal axes, crystal lances, and combat armor, all conjured to eventually dispel without maintenance + tell them of maintenance requirements (don't mention the crystalworks). Send minimum amount of apprentices to maintain everything along. Give apprentices secret orders to eventually find a way to report back about state of Chinese Academy + old merchant + info about new trader and to report back+refuse to help if they witness highly illegal acts: Chiefwaffles
0 - Give him Crystal Axes, Crystal Lances, Combat Armor, and two apprentices (as "tokens of appreciation/ambassadors/diplomats/[diplomatic excuse here]"). Give apprentices secret orders to report back about state of Chinese Academy + old merchant + more information about this new trader:
Orders:
3 - Buy Chief and RAM a room so they can hatefuck and get it out of their system: Draignean, helmacon, FallacyofUrist
0 - Redirect all our forces to the middle lane:
0 - Withdraw form the front-line of the desert and build a line of fortifications:
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: andrea on July 12, 2017, 06:20:02 am
Quote
Myark:
1 - Jungle: helmacon
3 - Desert: FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles,Andrea
2 - The Ship!: Andres, RAM
Trader:
2 - Seize his ship!: helmacon, Andres, RAM
1 - Give him crystal axes, lances, and armor... conjured the old-fashioned way rather than with the Crystalworks: FallacyofUrist
1 - Give him crystal axes, crystal lances, and combat armor, all conjured to eventually dispel without maintenance + tell them of maintenance requirements (don't mention the crystalworks). Send minimum amount of apprentices to maintain everything along. Give apprentices secret orders to eventually find a way to report back about state of Chinese Academy + old merchant + info about new trader and to report back+refuse to help if they witness highly illegal acts: Chiefwaffles
0 - Give him Crystal Axes, Crystal Lances, Combat Armor, and two apprentices (as "tokens of appreciation/ambassadors/diplomats/[diplomatic excuse here]"). Give apprentices secret orders to report back about state of Chinese Academy + old merchant + more information about this new trader:
Orders:
3 - Buy Chief and RAM a room so they can hatefuck and get it out of their system: Draignean, helmacon, FallacyofUrist
0 - Redirect all our forces to the middle lane:
0 - Withdraw form the front-line of the desert and build a line of fortifications:
What are you sending myark to the ship for, exactly? he is a master wizard and that is a normal ship crew. Our soldiers and wizards at home can do just fine.
Post by: RAM on July 12, 2017, 02:29:10 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 12, 2017, 03:04:41 pm
Post by: RAM on July 12, 2017, 03:12:32 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 12, 2017, 06:47:17 pm
We could get information and the supplies without hostilities and without the extreme potential of screwing up future relations if there are any. Of course, this is the only scenario where Myark is even arguably potentially worth it. They won't have enough time to scuttle the ship. We can simply send in a squad of soldiers and eliminate any resistance before they have time to react. Remember that their weapons are useless against our armor and our weapons are super good.
But yeah - maybe sending in Myark to make them a bit more agreeable could help gather information. Maybe an action to give them the weapons and have Myark subvert them, then ask them again about their origins, then either seize the ship or let them go?
Post by: evictedSaint on July 13, 2017, 12:36:19 am
Arstotzka makes a breakthrough in gem-based magical technology this year. Dubbed "Aethergems", these contraptions seemingly generate magical energy from nothing. They're basically a few anti-magic gems, circuits, and wires strapped to a magegem, but the largest of the series can produce enough energy in ten minutes to power a PSF-C blast. The most frightening aspect is how they seemingly render mages obsolete; though they are still rather slow, Aethergems mean that mages aren't required for every little magical task. They spend the first of their revisions putting three A-level Aethergems on a variant of their HA1 cannon, which allows them to fire it once every ten minutes without mage intervention. By itself, this isn't particularly useful, but it does work as a proof-of-concept. For their second revision, they modify their Flare spell to work as an offensive spell. Requiring very little energy, it produces a bright white light that can temporarily blind anyone who didn't have their eyes closed at that particular second.
Moskurg likewise makes a breakthrough in their special brand of magical technology. Dubbed the "Skyskiff", this flying device is an Adamantium canoe with two War Pegasi attached to the sides. The armor is thick enough to prevent HAC-1 penetration at medium range, and is practically invulnerable to anything smaller caliber. The most important aspect of this development is their own development of "Scrolls" - their War Pegasi are made out of rolled Adamantium now, which is rather uncomfortable for carpet riders but vastly improves the ease of production. By keeping an open center to allow air to pass through, these Adamantium War Pegasi Scrolls experience a vast increase in speed. Despite the heavy Adamantium construction and the fact that the Skyskiff carries two passengers, it is by far faster than the previous carpet-based version. For their revision, they give their Firestorm concoction a bit of TLC and upgrade it to Explosive. Now their Firestorm shells and grenades should explode rather violently once the clay shell is broken, although for the moment that just means they can spread their fire further than before rather than using shrapnel to cause injuries. Many Moskurg soldiers complain about the new firestorm liquid, as it makes a terrible mixer for Arak.
Much the same as last year, Moskurg pushes further into the jungle.
Their tornadoes don't require line-of-sight to operate and is particularly effective around so much free debris, their lightning is effective against ground troops, and their Skyskiffs mean they don't have to worry as much about getting shot down.
Arstotzka has the advantage of heavy artillery on their side and they win most melee engagements, but their Protector is still rubbish on uneven ground.
Moskurgs new explosive artillery shells have the most effect here and do a better job of setting the jungle on fire, but Arstotzka has been doing that for decades. Arstotzkan artillery is still slightly better as they can field more of them (especially with the Mundane chipping in it's 1 round every 10 minutes) and their explosive shells actually send out lethal shrapnel when it hits, but both are matched for range. Moskurgs better accuracy helps make up the difference, and in the end their tornadoes, Skyskiffs, and lightning do enough damage they can drive Arstotzka from the jungle.
Arstotzka builds fortifications on the edge of the Taiga in anticipation of further Moskurg gains next year; the tall pine trees of their homeland will likely be just as lethal in high winds as the jungle wood to the south.
Moskurg gains a section of Jungle this year. If they hold it for a year, they may exploit it for the Jungle Wood.
The battle is less clear-cut in the desert.
Both Arstotzka and Moskurg have deployed their heroes here as it is the most critical (and the most bloody) field of battle this year.
In the relatively flat dunes and rocky wastelands of the southern end of the continent, Arstotzkan artillery reigns supreme. Their Mundane doesn't do much by itself, but their Blind-Flare does its job as a close-range panic spell to give the user time to mount a defense. The last thing a surprising number of Moskurg soldiers see is a bright white light illuminating the sweaty face of an Apprentice, with his eyes squeezed shut. With less to burn Moskurgs artillery relies on precise hits and near-misses to splash fire onto enemy troops - the fumes do most of the work rather than the actual fire, but that hardly makes a difference to those engulfed. Incredibly enough, the Firestorm shells are like smaller-scale Arstotzkan Fireballs, but with more smoke and slightly more range. This makes plenty of Arstotzkan wizards grumpy, and they waste no time in switching from artillery duty to fireball-flinging as soon as enemy troops are in range. Battles are easy enough to find from all the smoke, though constant rain and howling winds wither flames pretty quickly.
The Protector still suffers here, as its wheels still break easily and are susceptible to fire. It's biggest contribution to the battlefield is acting as a mobile bunker that can fire a few times before being burnt-out, as even if it COULD get closer than Long Range before getting shut down Moskurg's anti-magic would render the magical circuitry inert. It's a very promising piece of equipment, but until these flaws are addressed it will likely not be a major part of the battle in the south.
Moskurgs Skyskiff does a much better job here than the Protector. The original carpet-and-saddle riders are obsoleted by the well-protected body of the craft with its two Adamantium Pegasus Scrolls providing surprising forward thrust. It can only be flown so fast before visibility becomes impossible for the driver, but that's enough to throw off the aim of soldiers on the ground. Even if the rare shot DOES hit, beyond Medium Range an HAC-1 is unlikely to do more than dent the underside. With one mage steering, the other is free to pick-and-choose his targets, dropping the highly explosive Firestorm grenades on enemy emplacements and striking out with their cheap wands of thunderbolt. Unless they get caught in a banking maneuver that exposes the top part of the canoe, they're virtually unkillable.
Again, as it was last year, Moskurg ships are able to land troops behind Arstotzkan lines and field Skyskiff sorties deep in their backfield, but the effect is mostly nullified by Arstotzka's Wand of True Light.
Myark and al-Mutriqa fight it out this year on the battlefield, facing one another for the first time in nearly a decade.
Spoiler: Duel (click to show/hide)
Myark has been wounded and will be unable to fight next year.
Moskurg regains a section of Desert.
With Moskurg forces tied up fighting in the desert, they are unable to push north to fight in the Plains. No battle occurs there this year.
Arstotzka has retained control of the Plains for a year. They may exploit it for resources.
Moskurgs Skyskiffs are fast enough to catch Arstotzkan Steam Powered Boats. Being nearly impossible to shoot down with HAC-1's, they easily dominate the air and suppress Arstotzka's navy this year. Many Arstotzkan sailors die this year of asphyxiation, as Moskurgs only way of getting to soldiers hiding behind crystal barriers is to smoke them out with their pungent fire.
Moskurg gains a section of shoreline in both the Eastern and Western Seas.
Other News:
Both nations decide to seize the Traders assets this year. His sudden appearance and reluctance to speak is suspicious enough, as well as the familiar boat from the trader from years past. Neither side has any trouble capturing him and his crew, and they've been put in both sides respective dungeons. Interrogation will prove what his intentions were soon enough. His ship was, as he said, full up enough with various treasures to give both sides an Expense Credit this year.
Hayat has recovered from her injuries from the previous year. Once very beautiful, her face is now a mess of scarred tissue. She wears the scars proudly as a badge of honor, as none may now say she was too cowardly to fight for her nation. Her ruined Queen's Will is replaced with an Adamantium Pegasus Scroll, courtesy of Moskurgs Design Team. She seems quite pleased with it, as it's by far faster than the old cloth variant from years past. She names it the "Malicious Intent". The name unsettles those in the court, but none denies it is a fitting name. With her wounds healed, Hayat may now work with Moskurgs Design Team to provide a Research Credit.
In accordance with Arstotzkans Scholarship, all non-drafted apprentices who serve for at least two years after being educated at Arstotzkas Academy for Adequate Apprenticeship are free to retire from active duty. Though the number of apprentices who either survive that long or choose to retire rather than attain a Wizard-level ranking is quite small, enough have trickled back into society over the past few years to be noticeable. Most are crippled in some way, but those who still have hands prove to be quite capable farmers with Dogwood Wands. It took quite a while to see the return on investment, but the increase in crop harvest is enough to earn Arstotzka an additional Expense Credit this year.
In brighter news, two members of the Arstotzkan design team decide to get married this year! Formerly bitter rivals, Watcher the Ram and Chief Waffles put aside their differences to confess their undying love towards one another. (Order: [6/5] -> [5]) Their wedding proves to be so lavish and ornate and their love so pure that the King has agreed to give the design team a minor increase in funding this year (+1 to Expense Roll this Design Phase).
!!DESIGN CREDIT!!
A strange man has arrived on the eastern shores of Forenia. He claims to be a "magician" - true enough, he has managed many surprising feats of magic that our wizards cannot replicate. He seems to draw from many schools of magic at once, in fact. He is able to Conjure and Disaparate living creatures from the confines of his headwear, namely a rabbit (our mages confirm that yes, it is a real, living rabbit). He is able to read the minds of our most formidable mages and discern which slip of paper from an entire stack they had chosen, then magically conjure that paper to the top. At one point he even chopped a living woman in twain with little more than a saw and a pair of boxes, but without harming her or spilling a drop of blood! To make the feat even more incredible, he healed her injuries to the point where it was impossible to tell she was ever injured at all.
He refers to himself simply as "The Saint".
Our design team agree that such a powerful Legendary Wizard would surely benefit our side, if we can attract him thusly. Hostile action is absolutely out of the question - there is little doubt that such a powerful wizard would be able to squash our entire kingdom with ease, if he so chose. Whichever side can offer the most attractive proposal will gain his magical knowledge and a second design that turn through a Design Credit.
It is 944, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 944 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Behavior Rules. Please Read.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Draignean on July 13, 2017, 12:44:13 am
Quote
In brighter news, two members of the Arstotzkan design team decide to get married this year! Formerly bitter rivals, Watcher the Ram and Chief Waffles put aside their differences to confess their undying love towards one another. (Order: [6/5] -> [5]) Their wedding proves to be so lavish and ornate and their love so pure that the King has agreed to give the design team a minor increase in funding this year (+1 to Expense Roll this Design Phase).
Yes. So much Yes.
Congratulations to the happy couple!
Moskrug regains a section of Desert.
Moskrug... Even the GM hates the bastards!
Post by: helmacon on July 13, 2017, 12:51:33 am
Quote
It's a very promising piece of equipment, but until these flaws are addressed it will likely not be a major part of the battle in the south.re proposing the Manticore, and we can do the anti magic resistance as the revision.
Edit: Best of wishes to the happy couple!
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 13, 2017, 12:53:01 am
We have 2 Expense credits and a +1 to our next expense roll.
But anyways, for now I shall post what I think our next revision should be. This one is almost vital because right now Moskurger fire's only advantage is that it asphyxiates our troops.
Future(-ish) Revision: Atmosphere Control System
A simple scroll to be attached to Combat Armor as well as Arstotzkan vehicles and potentially even buildings. The scroll is to be placed within a closed environment, and controls two aspects of that environment's atmosphere: Temperature and oxygen. The scroll requires no power due to its passive nature, and while already small, is to be scaled to its environments. Something as small as Combat Armor will only require a miniature scroll, while something such as a Crystalclad will require a more hefty but still very manageable scroll.
The ACS's first component is simply cooling circuits, something we've had extensive experience with and can practically implement into new designs with our eyes closed. The second part is a tweak to cooling circuits using our extremely expansive knowledge of fireballs. We know that Fireballs and Blastballs create gases, so we just use that knowledge to make a circuit for oxygen. The circuit just keeps the oxygen at a certain level fit for breathing.
With the ACS implemented, we can eliminate any provisions given towards venting. Namely in Combat Armor, where we can place a tiny ACS in the helmet and eliminate the small covered holes used for ventilation. The same goes for the Protector and the Crystalclad.
Our soldiers will now be practically immune to Moskurger fire. Combat Armored soldiers will be able to walk through it as their temperature is kept cool and oxygen is kept stable. Protectors will be able to drive through fires if their wheels don't break with their crew and operations other than their wheels unaffected. Crystalclads will practically be immune to fire and crew fit in combat armor will still be able to operate its cannons.
Also the Protector if the wheels don't break and our troops will totally be able to walk underwater.
TL;DR: Make a passive circuit based off our cooling circuit + fireball (gases) knowledge. Regulates oxygen+temperature, allowing anyone in an enclosed environment to remain cool and be able to breath despite external conditions. Makes Combat Armor soldiers practically immune to fire (and able to walk underwater!). Makes Protector immune to fire OTHER THAN THE WHEELS, and makes the Crystalclad's interior immune to fire. The Crystalclad will also be able to operate when on fire with the ACS because combat armor crew can operate it regardless of fire.
I'll edit in or post a design later. I'm thinking an upgrade to the AS-HAC-1.
Or we can make a rocket interceptor. That'd be cool.
Also what would be really nice is undoing their artillery range penalty.
@helmacon: Manticore doesn't fix our problem. They'll just fly over the Manticore, asphyxiating its crew with fire + not being shot at due to firing angles.
Post by: helmacon on July 13, 2017, 01:17:29 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 13, 2017, 02:04:17 am
(Advance TL;DR: It's a very very cool fighter that you should totally read the entire thing for it 'cuz it's awesome.)
Design: ASAF-F43 Interceptor
This is an outdated design. See this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7510272#msg7510272) for the up-to-date version.
Arstotzka needs a presence in the air. There are only so many ways we can prevent aerial attacks from the ground. We need to cut off the Moskurger threat at its roots - in the air.
The F43, named after the year of its design, is interesting. At first we looked at the bird with its large wings made purely for flying. After a few failed prototypes, we gave up on this idea. Sure, it could be made to work. But we don't need to work within the bounds of something so mundane.
We decided to base the F43 off of the Blastball. We already use it for propulsion - for the Blastshell. But we need something more versatile. Something that isn't just shaped explosions near an object to change its velocity.
Introducing the Kinetic Propulsion Drive. In a way, it's based off of the IDE. Using our extensive Fireball experience, we fill the KPD with extensive circuitry allowing it to exert a precise constant Blastball-derived propulsion. Calibrated for the shape of its host's hull, it creates constant pressure just outside the hull. Not explosions, but just... force. Allowing us to move any kind of object throughout the sky regardless of its shape, and giving us great freedom with weight.
The KPD is powered by an AAA Aethergem array, filled with as many AAA Aethergems as possible. We hope to allow for the KPD to remain powered without requiring a human mage, but as that's unlikely, a more reasonable goal is to allow for the Mage to only have to spend very small amounts of concentration on powering the craft and to allow for future upgrades to the power supply.
The F43 has an interesting shape. Ultimately we did choose to go with a vaguely bird-related aerodynamic shape to allow for increased efficiency when moving forwards. It's a small craft, as we don't wish to have to spend too much time on the KPD's power.
It's small. The pilot sits in a small "cockpit". The cockpit is almost entirely Crystal Glass for protection and visibility, and is shaped like a bubble or tear. The cockpit is just big enough to fit the pilot somewhat comfortably and the controls for the craft and its weapons. The Crystal Glass should be able to tank a ballistae bolt though we recommend not getting hit (which should be easy) regardless.
The cockpit is enclosed in small crystal hull. "Wings" extend from the cockpit backwards and forwards. These wings leave empty space in front of and behind the cockpit for maximum viewing angles and look almost like if you cut an oval down the long side in half and stuck both sides on the left and right sides of the cockpit.
Resistive/Non-Resistive crystal layering is in place to provide protection against lightning. This is possible thanks to the Crystalworks Mk. 2; all we have to do is flip a switch!
The F43 is equipped with three considerations for combat:
- A single AS-HAC-1 is placed in the front of the cockpit, with its barrel largely being exposed to the outside and the breech-loader being open to the pilot.
- Two single-use Blastshell (+R, +E, or +R/E) "pods" to be reloaded when the F43 is landed. These pods are essentially HC1-E barrels put on the left/right bottom of the cockpit. Capacitive buttons in the cockpit fire the pods. Preferably AA-Magegem powered but since that's low priority requiring mage power is fine. However, the Blastpods use a weaker blast, shorter barrel, and thinner walls (possible because of weaker blast) to significantly reduce weight; a Blastpod can only fire a standard shell up to Medium range.
- A "bomb bay" equipped with a single +E Blastshell to be dropped towards the ground. A lever in the cockpit controls the bomb bay hatch.
Holds one ton of bombs.
The pilot controls the F43 through a series of capacitive AAA Magegems controlling the KPD. As the KPD is essentially a large complicated circuit, controlling it via magic current should present absolutely zero problems.
The F43 can (probably) float. We assure you there's a reason for this.
With very careful precaution a F43 can be secured onto a Crystalclad for later liftoff, and it being powered by a Mage or Aethergems, it can be launched from the shore with a virtually unlimited range as well.
Kinetic Propulsion Drive - An "engine" filled with circuitry taking advantage of our Fireball experience + circuitry experience to allow it to use a Blastball-derived propulsion system, where it effectively just applies force to parts of its parent hull for movement. This is the main focus of the design. The rest is essentially building something to put the KPD inside. Basically, the KPD is a relatively large "wand" that casts the blastball-like propulsion around the hull of the craft for propulsion. Think of it like a wand that casts a derived-from-Blastball spell that "pushes" the hull at specific places in order to move the ship.
Power Generator - An integrated array of as many AAA Aethergems as possible without increasing expense and while remaining practical. The AAA Aethergems should focus as much as possible on powering the KPD without need for a Mage, but I realize this is by far the best-case scenario. If this (unlikely) goal doesn't get achieved, the Power Generator will be to allow the Mage to concentrate on other things, stop powering the KPD for a bit at a time, and for future upgrading so we can make it mundane-useable.
Range - Being fuel-less, the F43 has a virtually unlimited range. Its only limiting factor here is how long the pilot can stay awake/survive.
Propulsion - The KPD allows for UFO-like free movement with great speeds in any direction, through the F43 will still be streamlined in one direction to make it a bit faster when going "Forward".
--Hovering - Its propulsion naturally allows for hovering with no extra effort other than developing the KPD itself. Hovering doesn't really require any interaction by the pilot (as long as it's not knocked off balance when hovering) as long as the KPD is charged.
Armor + Anti-Lightning - Armor should be enough to stop a ballista bolt, and resistive layering (Thanks to CW Mk. 2) allows for the craft to be lightning-resistant.
Weapons - An AS-HAC-1 on the front of the cockpit as the main + highest-priority weapon. Two single-use (reloaded when landed) HC1-E-style Blastshell "pods" (Blastpods) activated from the cockpit. The Blastpods use a weaker blast, shorter barrel, and thinner walls to significantly reduce in weight - a regular shell can be fired to Medium range. And a "bomb bay" holding one (AND ONLY ONE) +E Blastshell as a primitive bomb.
Deployment - The F43 is of course to be deployed everywhere. On sea, it should mostly be able to be deployed from the shores thanks to its range, though if needed a single F43 could probably be secured onto a Crystalclad due to its small size.
Difficulty - This is fairly ambitious, but definitely not impossible. We have so much experience with the Fireball, and we've even already used the Blastball as propulsion. The challenge here is creating the Kinetic Propulsion Drive using our experience with Fireballs. Then we just make a small+light hull out of crystal and slap on some weapons.
Expense - I'm aiming for Expensive (Cheap may be possible but is really just a pipe dream) but Very Expensive is a very possible outcome. +1 to expense should help here. Circuits (which the Kinetic Propulsion Drive is practically made of) are cheap. Crystal is cheap + the Crystalworks. AS-HAC-1 is cheap. HC1-E (which the Blastpods basically are) is cheap. Every part is cheap, so that shouldn't be a problem.
TL;DR - We make an "engine" able to give its parent object UFO-like propulsion (can move in any direction with great speed). Then we build a small+light crystal hull around it. Then give it weapons.
Basically, a very cool multi-role aircraft. That is 100% most certainly not the Haast. Trust me.
The F43 would probably be well paired with the Crystal Fabricator, as right now its weapons are lacking. But the ACS would be pretty nice for it too I suppose?
The idea is to very suddenly introduce Moskurg to dogfighting then immediately beat them at it. Their aircraft is meant to quickly get in, bomb us, then get out. It's not meant for dogfighting. At all. So if we make Dogfighting a thing, we will win.
Quote
DESIGNI will be very receptive to feedback regarding the F43, by the way.
1 - ASAF-F43 Interceptor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509336#msg7509336): Chiefwaffles
Post by: RAM on July 13, 2017, 02:24:34 am
But most importantly. They are armouring up, and hitting us with range. High density is good against armour. There are other things, shaped charges, hardened penetrators, discarded sabots... But ultimately it always comes down to density, and an extremely dense material ought to have a fair load of strength compared to things much lighter than itself. Gold may be softer than enamel but I still wouldn't put my teeth in front of a gold bullet... And then there is their wind. Much greater density means much more inertia for a much lower air displacement and cross-section ala sails. Weightite, well used, could solve our range and armour penetration issues, and combined with a tweak to our crystal summons we ought to be able to get some really wonderful discarded sabots with a revision.
It is annoying to do something boring like summoning a new material, especially when all its properties amount to is "really really heavy", but it gets our artillery back in the game for the foreseeable future.
It also doesn't seem 'that' ambitious. 100 grams for each cubic centimetre is insanely heavy for an actual tangible material, but it is within and order of magnitude of real things, and is stabilised by magic, so we can go way off the periodic table. It is, however, extremely remote from the likes of neutron stars, so it is comfortably "materials denser than this exist" by such a large degree that we should have no fear at all of creating a black hole. It is, basically, the holy grail of ballistic materials, and it is the very familiar conjuration magic. We have done so much in the field of "conjured materials" with crystals that branching out really ought not be too much trouble, and an extremely simple requirement of "super-duper mega-mass ought to be a good first step to branching out our material conjurings.
"Weightite"
The enemy has made it clear that the skies are against us, and we will stand firm and show them that the ground is mightier by far. We need to pierce through their defences. It is clear that they must be straining the limits of what air can do, so we must produce a weapon that can defeat the winds. This weapon must be forceful and yet small, to maximise its momentum and minimise the wind's purchase upon it. Additionally, it must be supplied in large quantities, and further, with our mastery of conjuring, we ought be able to summon it directly into our weapons. The solution to the small size and great force is weight. The solution to summoning it rapidly enough to act as ammunition, is simplicity. Crystals are too complex to be summoned at such a rate and too stable to be pushed to the extreme weight that we require.
So it is that we introduce the "Summoning Cap". This platform is derived from the design of the crystalworks. It is a structured platform dedicated to our new Weightite material, purpose-built as a single circuit to rapidly produce bullets directly within the chamber of our largest artillery. Given the great weight of the bullets, the majority of the inner-workings have been reduced in size, allowing more armour around the detonation chamber allowing a more powerful explosion to propel a heavier bullet.
The specifications for this material are:
: primarily the ability to summon it rapidly enough to, at most, half our rate of fire, though an increase in rate of fire due to the lack of reloading is hoped for. Given the simplicity of the material's "just make it heavy" nature, it should be viable.
: Secondarily we hope for weight. We aim for ten times the mass of lead and will perform preliminary considerations according to this. If we can make something even heavier, then so much the better. If it fails to meet this goal, then it should meet design requirements even if it is only two or three times the weight of lead.
: Our third priority is for it to share the crystalworks' immunity to antimagic. Basing it off of the same technology should facilitate this. They are, after all, both material conjuration effects.
: As an addendum, it must perform as ammunition. Liquids or goo would, most likely, be ineffective, but test-fire them first to be sure...
While the material's other properties are unspecified, we would expect for it to be extremely resistant to all effects, and thus might see future use as armour.
Additionally, it ought to be possible to dump bullets in the bottom of ships, to add more ballast if they become unstable.
This design, on the other hand, is just to get our existing frist towers to affect weather-patterns according to modern weather theory. Cold air becomes denser, denser air is no longer supported by the warmer, thinner air around it. With nothing to support it, the air falls. Account for a volume of air with a radius of at least 50 kilometres... We are probably talking about tens of thousands of tonnes of air, I am not going to bother with the calculations here, someone else can if they like and I admit that I am just pulling that figure out of nothing. This is enough to set up weather patterns. It is enough to BREAK weather patterns. Tornadoes lift, when the whole sky is falling there will be no way to get momentum enough to rise. It pulls their aircraft into our gunnery positions, gets us heay armoured structures to defend and plays merry havoc with everything that they know of aiming weather magic because everything is moving regardless of what a few puffs of gas they might generate would have to say on the matter.
Celestedemorte
A larger, stronger, more powerful frost tower that effects a pillar of air rather than a disk of air. This creates a massive version of the convection effect that we have been constantly observing around our firewalls and steam engines and fireballs and fire wasps and every single tiny little thing that we do with all this fire in cold climes. This creates a massive Massive MASSIVE wind force as untold millions of tonnes of air are compelled to move down as quickly as they are able, and with al their friends doing the same thing, that is very quickly indeed. This will, in short, rip their storm coulds out of the heavens, and all the pathetic insects shall plummet from the air with them. And, as fortune would have it, it seems that as the water grows colder, the number of storm clouds is reduced.
Enduring this insane force is no small feat. The worked-crystal tower's walls are ten centimetres thick and must be transported in great panels by rails and cavalry teams before being assembled by leaning them against each other and bound together with rapidly grown vines. A great steel pole, 3 centimetres in diameter and running along one corner of the pyramidal structure and sunk into the ground renders the tower and its surrounds immune to lightning as we have learned that lightning loves metal. Finally, there is a 1-centimetre thinck shell around the structure of summoned crystal, that can easily be renewed. Within, the traditional elements of the tower of forever frost have been combined with circuitry to create a massive multistorey circuit to better unify the magic, inhibiting magical seepage and wastage resulting in a much more efficient tower and magems are included to make its operation more consistent. Access is granted by a ladder through a hole in the centre of the crystal foundation slab and requires that a tunnel be huge which benefits from crystal supports.
Shall we make an all clear-crystal protector with the light behind it and cause it to disappear by washing the dust off of it while behind a curtain for the stage magician?
I do not believe that the interceptor is wise while they have so many air manipulation spells and we have no way to inhibit them. I doubt that it would take much to cause the aircraft to stall, they have stable hovering weapon platforms with 360 degree motion from which to defend, A lightning strike to the wrong component could probably cause munitions to explode or throw off the craft's balance. The first experiments in flight will probably be ludicrously unstable and a strong gust at the wrong moment would likely throw them into an unrecoverable spinning dive. At least get living magic up so that we can get a nice hawk's soul to possess the craft and play a nice little flight computer to handle the finer details of aerial stability first...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 13, 2017, 02:35:50 am
Quote
I do not believe that the interceptor is wise while they have so many air manipulation spells and we have no way to inhibit them. I doubt that it would take much to cause the aircraft to stall, they have stable hovering weapon platforms with 360 degree motion from which to defend, A lightning strike to the wrong component could probably cause munitions to explode or throw off the craft's balance. The first experiments in flight will probably be ludicrously unstable and a strong gust at the wrong moment would likely throw them into an unrecoverable spinning dive. At least get living magic up so that we can get a nice hawk's soul to possess the craft and play a nice little flight computer to handle the finer details of aerial stability first...
The thing is we already have propulsion experience. Sure, it's limited, but it's there. We also have experience with aerodynamics, as shown by our shells. Again, limited, but still present.
But then there's the experience we have with Fireballs and by extension Blastballs. We have so much experience we get a +6 when designing the Blastball and a +6 when designing the Flash-Flare.
The Kinetic Propulsion Drive benefits from this. Sure, it won't get a +6, but our extreme knowledge in Blastballs, circuits + our lesser knowledge in aerodynamics + using Blastballs for propulsion means this won't really be a stumbling first foray into flight.
Sure, it may not even be as fast as Moskurg's stuff, and that's okay. Remember what I said in the F43's post - they haven't prepared for dogfighting at all. Their ships won't be particularly maneuverable.
That and their weapons. They have lightning, which is useless against the F43's resistive layering. They have ballistae bolts, practically useless against the crystal armor. They have fire-shells, but getting enough hits to cause potential asphyxiation will be near impossible with the F43's maneuverability.
And their ballistaes may have 360 degree firing angles, but they're out in the open and have to be manually reloaded + manually aimed and should be pretty bulky. Lucky strike may be powerful, sure, but not that powerful. They have to be aiming at something for lucky strike to help.
The plan is that we take advantage of their current anti-ground flight doctrine and suddenly introduce dogfighting. Then, while they scramble to make their craft better for dogfighting/try to use wind to counter the F43, we improve the F43 in any areas where it's lacking.
Also, you should probably rename Weightite. I thought it was just heavier crystal, but it turns out
Post by: helmacon on July 13, 2017, 02:37:45 am
The origins of the berserker array lay with a small group of engineers who were looking into alternatives to cargo transport for the Arstotzkan military. Using a modified directed blastball-C they were attempting to accelerate cargo without causing damage to the goods. With all the recent advances in fireball tech, controlling a blastball in this manner became trivially easy. Although they could now accelerate relatively fragile materials at high speeds without damage, the expanding infrastructure and use of the restless made this obsolete. Not to be discouraged, the engineers sought alternative uses for their technique. The Berserker array is that use.
Essentially a modified HA1, the berserker array can launch fragile payloads without putting stress on the contents. The obvious use? Launch our soldiers out of them. The Berserker fires a single soldier payload, with the soldier being clad in reinforced crystal armor. The specialized armor suite contains airfoils and glide wings to allow the soldier precise control of his flight. Using his maneuverability, he can land on airships or skiffs to directly attack enemy crew. A skilled pilot can even tackle pegisi riders out of the air. Once his mission is complete, or he begins his downwards descent, He utilizes a prototype parachute to safely return to the ground. The Berserker array can be used to put our men in the sky to deal with their ships, or rapidly deploy reinforcements to critical locations. When fired en mass, they can even create a sudden powerful strike force that can be launched behind enemy lines.
Because they are often on their own, Berserker pilots are only our most highly trained soldiers (and occasionally mages).
Alternatively;
Design: S.A.F.E.
When it comes down to is, antimagic itself is a type of magic. It is simply an inert form that overpowers all other types in an area. Seeing as our anti magic crystals are tethered to an actual physical object, it is much more powerful (though much more contained) than the enemy's alternative. Our anti magic crystals actualy cancel out the effect of of enemy anti magic, though this is normally not important as it is still antimagic.
Recently, we have found a way around this roadblock. We can imprint mages or specific equipment to an anti magic crystal, allowing them to use magic inside its area of influence. Since the crystal is canceling out the enemy antimagic, it create a safe zone of magic use around it. The major advantage of doing anti magic resistance this way is that it is universally applicable. It dosent require any special integration or complicated machinery. Imprint what you need to work around it, and stick it anywhere!
Post by: RAM on July 13, 2017, 03:32:36 am
As for S.A.F.E.? All I can say is that the enemy antimagic has been consistently superior to our own. It goes through our own antimagic fields without impediment. I would have thought that it would at least slow down a little, get little pock-marks just after going over a thane, but nope, just breezed through... I think that at least some effort would be best delivered towards attuning the antimagic against antimagic. Which out to be plausible, as it is essentially a magical suction effect. It ought to be able to suck antimagic away if it can get get any traction, where as the enemy antimagic seems to be a great big "no fun allowed" field that should be ephemeral enough to yoink...
P.S.
Arrow summoning bows, self-repairing armour,holy hand-grenadespatriotic flame-throwers, spontaneous tower-shields...
summon crystal shells
Post by: Andres on July 13, 2017, 03:45:00 am
Design: Direct Application Frost Towers
This design for frost towers does not merely pump coldness into the atmosphere as previous frost towers have done. Instead, it directly lowers the temperature of everything within its radius, bypassing such things as hard barriers. This should allow our frost towers to once more freeze Moskurg soldiers to death, their warm armour no longer protecting them from the cold now that their very insides are being directly made to be cooler. No form of insulation or heating can protect against it - it bypasses it all. The aim is to make the towers capable of a temperature drop of at least 10 degrees Celsius. A lowering of 10C is the point at which the human body begins to die. Our current frost towers can lower the temperature much lower than by 10C, so this goal shouldn't be difficult.
To ensure our own soldiers do not suffer from the effects of the DAFTs, they will be given simple anti-magic charms to wear. There's hardly any difference between these ones and the ones we already make - they are simply smaller so that we can make more of them, but their area of effect should still be large enough to cover an individual soldier. These charms will, however, be covered in a cheap fabric of some kind with some random symbol painted on them. The fabric and the symbol aren't meant to really do anything, they're just meant to trick Moskurg so that they don't know the answer is to simply apply anti-magic to the problem.
Quote
DESIGN
1 - ASAF-F43 Interceptor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509336#msg7509336): Chiefwaffles
1 - Direct Application Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509387#msg7509387): Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on July 13, 2017, 04:28:02 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2017, 07:37:28 am
Quote
DESIGN
1 - ASAF-F43 Interceptor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509336#msg7509336): Chiefwaffles
1 - Direct Application Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509387#msg7509387): Andres
2 - Berserker Array (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509356#msg7509356): helmacon, FallacyofUrist
I've wanted something like this for some time! Time for the Man Cannon!
Edit: The Saint sounds like a trap.
Post by: andrea on July 13, 2017, 08:35:16 am
Now, the berserk array really looks like a deadly trap for our men. Is a cannon the best way you can imagine to delvier troops? I am really worried about side effects of that one.
I am going to propose an old idea I had.
Showstopper antimagic shell
An evolution of the equalizer antimagic shell, the Showstopper takes a different approach to magic area denial. While the equalizer relies on being a big unbroken ball of antimagic crystal, the Showstopper contains a magegem rigged to explode on a time. The purpose of this is not to cause direct damage ( although it is welcome), but to spread shards and dust of antimagic crystal in a large area. It is hoped that by doing such a large area can be covered, causing large scale disruption of casting and enhancements. Furthermore, if detonated in the air the airborne dust is theorized to make their air manipulation more difficult and less controllable, although complete denial is considered unlikely.
Clearly, the developement of this shell is centered around making the circuits that cast the explosion immune to the antimagic of the shell itself.
It is hoped that by reducing the quantity of antimagic crystal used (due to the need of a magegem cavity inside) and removing the need of it being a huge block, instead allowing it to be composed of small gems and shards encased in a crystal shell, the cost can be reduced compared to the old equalizer.
Later I might post something about air vehicle as well.
Post by: evictedSaint on July 13, 2017, 08:50:44 am
The Saint sounds like a trap.
How about you shut your whore mouth
Post by: Kadzar on July 13, 2017, 10:11:43 am
Quote
DESIGN
1 - ASAF-F43 Interceptor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509336#msg7509336): Chiefwaffles
1 - Direct Application Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509387#msg7509387): Andres
3 - Berserker Array (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509356#msg7509356): helmacon, FallacyofUrist, Kadzar
Post by: andrea on July 13, 2017, 10:39:58 am
At least, if you want to go that route, why not just build a jetpack for our soldiers? it doesn't have the limit of only accelerating the soldiers for a small length, unlike the cannon. Rather, it can keep accelerating over a longer time, providing range without killing the soldier. If we spend an expense credit on magegems, it will probably be merely expensive.
Actualy, I will work on the proposal.
Aerial mobility unit
Blastballs allow us to increase the range of our shells, but a single big explosion has proved to not be the most efficient way to deal with the problem. Rather, they would work far better with a continuous rather than impulsive effect. Therefore much like the wall of flame or channeled fog we modify our traditional blastball to achieve a constant force applied on the point of summoning.
The first application of this new spell is in an add-on to our combat armor: a Crystal box positioned in the back of the combat suit, in the shape of a backpack. This box contains mostly A or AA magegems (as our designers see fit. Target cost is VE) and circuits that summon the continued blast spell on concave plates on the sides of the soldiers, near his Center of Mass. Those plates, are on a swivel mount and while normally they are blocked in position, the soldier can unlock them and move them to gain limited control during powered flights. This device will allow unprecedented mobility to our troops: jumping higher than a building, charging faster than a speeding bullets, impacting the enemies stronger than a locomotive ( and surprisingly, we actually can make the last 2 comparisons in this modern age). An AAA battery powers a small light in the visor , signaling the charge level of the aerial mobility unit (AMU). An AAA Aethergem is included and linked to the magegem array, so that over time it can be recharged.
Here, soldiers can fly, but at useful ranges without being killed by cannon.
Post by: Draignean on July 13, 2017, 10:50:18 am
The Saint sounds like a trap.
How about you shut your whore mouth
A whore's mouth isn't particularly useful when shut. Just sayin'.
Quote
DESIGN
1 - ASAF-F43 Interceptor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509336#msg7509336): Chiefwaffles
1 - Direct Application Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509387#msg7509387): Andres
4 - Berserker Array (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509356#msg7509356): helmacon, FallacyofUrist, Kadzar, Draignean
1 - Aerial Mobility Unit (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509576#msg7509576): Andrea
I like it. I even have a revision for it.
Skyjacker Armor
A specifically designed improvement one the variant armor used by berserkers, Skyjacker armor incorporates a pair of aethergem charging assemblies in the back, and magegems circuitry designed to create relatively weak blastballs on both palms and both feet. While this is nowhere near sufficient to enable something resembling flight, it is quite capable of allowing a berserker to make sudden adjustments in direction and velocity after being fired from a cannon. When on solid ground, the suit's feet allow the user to make sudden and astonishing leaps (which can be further modified using the palm gems). If properly anchored, the palm gems can also be used to make devastating open handed strikes, even without a weapon.
Granted, it takes a while for a Skyjacker's armor to recharge, but their missions are usually swift and brutal.
And, for certain individuals...
Hellcat Division
Due to their enhanced ability to withstand G-forces, an all-female unit of Elite Skyjackers has been created. Their distinctively feline
variant armor is similar to the above, though sacrificing some amount of direct armor in favor of higher agility and aerial speed. Peerless in hand-to-hand combat, they are trained as a rapid blitz force- to either lay in ambush on the ground and vault skyward to handle small, low flying vessels, or to be launched via cannon barrage and use their armor gliders and blast charges to make focused assaults on airships.
EDIT: Sorry Andrea, updating yours into the votebox..
Post by: andrea on July 13, 2017, 11:50:53 am
an human generally can only sustain 5 positive g (49 m/s^2). Modern fighter pilots can pull 9 g (88 m/s^2), with specialized equipment of several kinds and specific training, both of which we don't have. I ran numbers for both situation anyway, in case you want to add proper g-suits to the proposals.
The length of the barrel is also needed. I examined the cased of X = 5m and X= 10m
I will consider t0=0 and x0=0, meaning that all distances and times are calculated from the firing time and from the loading position.
for an uniformly accelerated motion, which is what we want, we can calculate the velocity at the end of the acceleration period by writing
1.1)v=v0+a*t;
considering that it starts at rest, it reduces to
1.2)v=a*t.
Now we need to know the time it takes for the soldier to reach the end of the barrel.
2.1)x=0.5a*t^2+v0*t+x0
which with our assumptions becomes
2.2)x=0.5a*t^2
from which
3)t=sqrt(2x/a)
Now merging (3) with (1.2) we get
v=a*sqrt(2X/a)
I solved it for all the 4 combinations of acceleration and length
a=5g, X= 5m >>> v=22 m/s
a=5g, X=10m >>> v=31 m/s
a=9g, X=5m >>> v=29 m/s
a=9g, X=10m >>> v=42 m/s
For reference, the low end for black powder muskets is 120 m/s (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_velocity) and musket balls are much denser and more aerodynamic than humans.
The paper (http://www.willegal.net/iron_brigade/musket.pdf) referenced by wikipedia provides an useful chart of the drop of a projectile in reference to the distance. You will note that the slowest round considered is more than 5 times faster than our hypotetical soldier and better suited for air travel. And it drops 450 feet per 300 feet travelled. (sorry for imperials, the paper uses that).
now of course our soldier is not launched in an horizontal trajectory, but our performance can be assumed to be far worse. the best thing you can hope to hit with a berserker array is our own troops right ahead of the cannon.
So I beg, I plead you to listen to the math. If you want to go ahead with this idea of flying soldiers, just modifying the blastball is not a solution. You will need magical inertial dampers included in the design to allow FAR higher acceleration ( which will not be trivial) or you will need to switch to something more in the style of rocket propulsion, like a jetpack.
Post by: Draignean on July 13, 2017, 12:10:04 pm
Ok, I ran some math on the physics of the Berserker array
an human generally can only sustain 5 positive g (49 m/s^2). Modern fighter pilots can pull 9 g (88 m/s^2), with specialized equipment of several kinds and specific training, both of which we don't have. I ran numbers for both situation anyway, in case you want to add proper g-suits to the proposals.
The length of the barrel is also needed. I examined the cased of X = 5m and X= 10m
I will consider t0=0 and x0=0, meaning that all distances and times are calculated from the firing time and from the loading position.
for an uniformly accelerated motion, which is what we want, we can calculate the velocity at the end of the acceleration period by writing
1.1)v=v0+a*t;
considering that it starts at rest, it reduces to
1.2)v=a*t.
Now we need to know the time it takes for the soldier to reach the end of the barrel.
2.1)x=0.5a*t^2+v0*t+x0
which with our assumptions becomes
2.2)x=0.5a*t^2
from which
3)t=sqrt(2x/a)
Now merging (3) with (1.2) we get
v=a*sqrt(2X*a)
I solved it for all the 4 combinations of acceleration and length
a=5g, X= 5m >>> v=22 m/s
a=5g, X=10m >>> v=31 m/s
a=9g, X=5m >>> v=29 m/s
a=9g, X=10m >>> v=42 m/s
For reference, the low end for black powder muskets is 120 m/s (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muzzle_velocity) and musket balls are much denser and more aerodynamic than humans.
The paper (http://www.willegal.net/iron_brigade/musket.pdf) referenced by wikipedia provides an useful chart of the drop of a projectile in reference to the distance. You will note that the slowest round considered is more than 5 times faster than our hypotetical soldier and better suited for air travel. And it drops 450 feet per 300 feet travelled. (sorry for imperials, the paper uses that).
now of course our soldier is not launched in an horizontal trajectory, but our performance can be assumed to be far worse. the best thing you can hope to hit with a berserker array is our own troops right ahead of the cannon.
So I beg, I plead you to listen to the math. If you want to go ahead with this idea of flying soldiers, just modifying the blastball is not a solution. You will need magical inertial dampers included in the design to allow FAR higher acceleration ( which will not be trivial) or you will need to switch to something more in the style of rocket propulsion, like a jetpack.
Good points, though your G numbers are quite low. A human has been proven to be able to survive G-forces slightly in excess of 45g for brief (1-2 seconds) periods of time. That brings our muzzle velocity to somewhere between 945 and 1350, if your numbers are correct. Add in the fact that the modified suits are designed to be outfitted with gliding gear, and the range becomes rather extraordinary. WARNING: Went back over the math, this is hilariously wrong at the moment.
I'm not averse to the jetpack, but a cannon isn't a jet. You don't need to withstand the acceleration for anywhere near the same amount of time, or nearly as regularly. For reference, I'd recommend the 1950s rocket sled experiments.
EDIT: Also, either I'm using your final equation wrong, or you've got a fairly decent error in it. One moment... diagnosing...
Right, so you gave it a multiply when you meant divide. Which made my numbers look really optimistic (I was a bit surprised by the speed). Recalculating...
Velocity range for a soldier should be [441*sqrt(10/441), 441*sqrt(20/441)], or [66, 92 m/s]
Well fuck. If your equations are right, I'm absolutely convinced.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2017, 12:26:45 pm
Post by: andrea on July 13, 2017, 12:36:40 pm
And in all this the soldier must retain full consciousness when it exits, because if he moves much he risks tumbling. Which will make him unable to do anything except die in the fall.
Sure, maybe we can do some magic to make it work.
BUT ADD IT TO THE DESIGN!
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2017, 12:40:45 pm
Post by: Draignean on July 13, 2017, 12:48:18 pm
@Draignean, even with your number of gs, which is chest to back, not head to feet (which greatly increases acceleration resistance but makes a much poorer aerodynamic shape and larger barrel size and worse control out of barrel) the muzzle velocities are 66 m/S and 93 m/s , respectively for the 5m and 10 m cannons.
And in all this the soldier must retain full consciousness when it exits, because if he moves much he risks tumbling. Which will make him unable to do anything except die in the fall.
Sure, maybe we can do some magic to make it work.
BUT ADD IT TO THE DESIGN!
Yeah, I redid the math and found the same (see my edit). In my defense you messed up the final equation by putting in a multiplication sign where a division should have been, so 'optimistic' would be an understatement for its results.
Switching my vote to jetpack.
Quote
DESIGN
1 - ASAF-F43 Interceptor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509336#msg7509336): Chiefwaffles
1 - Direct Application Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509387#msg7509387): Andres
3 - Berserker Array (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509356#msg7509356): helmacon, FallacyofUrist, Kadzar
2 - Aerial Mobility Unit (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509576#msg7509576): Andrea, Draignean
Post by: andrea on July 13, 2017, 12:55:06 pm
I also edited my proposal to give a mean of control to the soldier and to align thrust with center of mass for less spinning.
Feedback on it would be very welcome.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2017, 01:02:21 pm
Well, as discussed in Discord, the Berserker Array may have some velocity and safety issues.
I'll put forwards an alternative idea, though I'm not shifting my vote just yet.
SA-1: Railed Man Cannon:
We've developed a rather large cannon especially designed to fire the strangest projectile of all, men. This is an utterly brilliant idea, but one with some safety and velocity issues.
Safety issue one: this won't be pleasant for any man fired. Heck, men are nowhere near as durable as shells.
Safety issue two: and it won't be pleasant upon impact, either.
Solution: A special variant crystal suit, designed to be especially aerodynamic and resistant to an explosion from underneath. The idea is the suit allows a fired man to fly through the air at a further distance than normal, survive the acceleration and explosive force, and after landing on an enemy sky ship, jump off and fly down to safety. Our Crystalworks should manage this easy.
Velocity issue: The suit handles the aerodynamics well enough, but reaching sufficient velocity may be a bit difficult. This is handled by a modification to the suit and the cannon. The cannon's insides are equipped with rails, which correspond to little attached wheels on the suit. Instead of using a single explosion, we apply several smaller explosions which, in total, add up to far more velocity applied than the single explosion we normally use, at many points on each rail. This also makes it safer, using a more gradual acceleration as opposed to one big acceleration.
Here, have a diagram.
X=cannon walls, M = man, E = explosion.
A normal cannon would work like this.
XXXXXXXXX
EM
XXXXXXXXX
This won't get the man inside very far, and will be quite a jolt.
The Man Cannon would work like this.
XXXEXEXEXEXEXEXEXEXEXEXE
XEM
XXXEXEXEXEXEXEXEXEXEXEXE
Firstly, we make it much larger than normal. This will lead to aiming and setup issues, but we have breech loading and the men fired can adjust.
The explosions are smaller than the big explosion used in the first diagram, but added together, they reach much higher velocity over a longer period of time, keeping our fired man from dying horribly. I reiterate, when the fired man passes each E, it goes off, adding velocity. This requires quite a bit of coordination, but we have mathmagics and circuitry and blast ball experience which should do the trick.
The implications of this are enormous. We can fire forces behind enemy lines. We can fire forces directly onto enemy ships. We can fire troops into the air and have them come back around on our territory and report what they saw. The ultimate in scouting. The ultimate in troop transportation. The ultimate in awesome. Vote for the Railed Man Cannon now, if you think it would be better than the Berserker Array. Glory to Arstotzka.
Quote
DESIGNIf it doesn't pass, the Berserker Array is my second choice, which is why I'm keeping my vote there for the moment.
1 - ASAF-F43 Interceptor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509336#msg7509336): Chiefwaffles
1 - Direct Application Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509387#msg7509387): Andres
3 - Berserker Array (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509356#msg7509356): helmacon, FallacyofUrist, Kadzar
2 - Aerial Mobility Unit (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509576#msg7509576): Andrea, Draignean
0 - SA-1: Railed Man Cannon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509683#msg7509683):
Post by: Draignean on July 13, 2017, 01:42:14 pm
Bloody physics always getting in the way of awesome.
Well, as discussed in Discord, the Berserker Array may have some velocity and safety issues.
I'll put forwards an alternative idea, though I'm not shifting my vote just yet.
SA-1: Railed Man Cannon:
...
Here's the thing with the rails and extend system; the average acceleration is still fatally high.
Let's twist Andrea's equation around a bit, and set x to a hilariously large number that comes out a root well. Let's 50.
v=a*sqrt(2(50)/a) --> v=a*sqrt(100/a) ---> v = 10*a/sqrt(a) ---> v = 10*sqrt(a)
Hmm, is that right? One moment... Yep, that checks out. So, assuming we have a meter long gun, how much avg acceleration do we need to reach musket level 120m/s?
120 = 10*sqrt(a)
120^2 =100*a
120^2/100 = a
a = 144
144/9.8 = 14g. Okay, that's reasonable, but the range on that is... lackluster at best. Unless you're trying to hit a target 300 yards away, we need something a bit more peppy. Lets aim for a range of 3 miles, a far cry from conventional artillery. Lets aim (at the leats) to match the Long Tom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/155_mm_Long_Tom) in terms of muzzle velocity. On the one hand, its range was 13 miles, on the other, it fired an aerodynamic 100lb projectile, not a man in full battle armor. Its muzzle velocity was 850, so...
850 = 10*sqrt(a)
850^2/100 = a
a = 7225
g = 7225/9.8 = 737g
Huh. Sploit. Can we do half that?
425^2/100 =a
a = 1806
g ~= 180
Yeah, still no.
So, even using a 50 meter long barrel, dozens of blast gems, and a needlessly complex apparatus, you'll still squash the soldier into jelly if you go too much faster than an antiquated black powder rifle.
A word on G-suits. They don't actually protect you all that much from G-forces. They force blood into your brain to prevent you from losing consciousness, but they aren't that big a help in preventing all the complex tubes and wires inside your body from tearing apart. It's neat, and I do love the idea of shooting infantry at people, but the forces involved here are ridiculous.
Also, the idea about the crystal works making g-suits made out of crystal is the kind of thing that makes me die a little inside. The crystal works shouldn't be able to do that. Crystal shouldn't be able to do that, period.
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 13, 2017, 01:58:43 pm
War Falcons
We have used our knowledge of summoning and life manipulation to alter the existing falcons we use into much larger variants, closer to giant eagles. While maintaining the ability to fly and having sharp beaks and talons, the more impressive feat is they can carry a single solider with weapons in a leather harness on their back.
The soldiers will be armed with a crystal weapons for boarding or more commonly a rifle or anti magic bow for taking out enemy ships. Once the transformation and mind manipulation training are done on the war falcon they are completely mundane, needing no further magic and being unaffected by anti magic effects.
Post by: Draignean on July 13, 2017, 02:01:03 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 13, 2017, 02:03:51 pm
Also yes we can put jetpacks on the falcons (or dragons) later, but I want these versions to be totally mundane on the battle field so we can concentrate on using them for ordinary soldiers without having to use expensive mage gems.
Post by: Draignean on July 13, 2017, 02:11:31 pm
Also yes we can put jetpacks on the falcons (or dragons) laterI thank you getting that reference.
I'd really love to see some crystalline barding on those eagles... Still, that's a revision after we make sure the eagles themselves work.
Admittedly, I'm now imagining a flying colossus (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRyH_u5l3LQ) with artillery cannons mounted on its back firing on their large airships while falcon riding crystal knights fend off carpet riders.
Argh. I do be conflicted.
Give me a minute to think on this.
Post by: andrea on July 13, 2017, 02:15:22 pm
Rather, give them layered crystal armor against lightning, crystal claws and a couple of grapefruit sized explosive grenades and let them do the fighting.
Edit. Wait, they are big enough to make soldiers ride them? Objection retracted, soldiers can probably fight decently from that. Still not too steady however.
If you want giant stable flying gun platforms, it is probably best to invest in blast technology, like the jetpack or waffle's flying thing. But i could see falcon cavalry having its uses
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 13, 2017, 02:20:42 pm
Sure they can throw lighting at us, but we will have a LOT of falcons shooting projectiles at them.
Post by: andrea on July 13, 2017, 02:23:33 pm
Riding is fine.
Post by: helmacon on July 13, 2017, 02:33:41 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2017, 02:47:00 pm
We've realized the true problem with the Man Cannon. The problem isn't our technology, it's the soldiers themselves. They're too physically limited for our plans to work. What if we could make our soldiers better? What if we could improve them, make them stronger, faster, and more importantly tougher?
We haven't much used life magic in the past, but we do have some experience with it from our Dogwood Wands and falcons. Now's the time to make use of this knowledge on humans.
Introducing the Overclock Process MK 1.
The object of this process is to create a super soldier that is better in every way than the average, superhumanly better, and hopefully able to survive being fired out of a cannon.
Here's how it works. Basically, we use a special crystal pod in which the soldier rests. Over several hours, apprentices, or Aethergems if we have them spare, channel magical energy into the pod, which is converted to life energy using our Dogwood magitechnology, and then infused into the soldier.
Raw life energy has... some issues. While much of the time it works and we get a supersoldier, sometimes we get defects. These defects die or are crippled most of the time, but occasionally we get mutations, typically bestial in nature(we don't know why). Hopefully in the future we'll be able to improve this process.
Once we do this, we can get around those pesky "human limits" and "g forces". Glory to Arstotzka.
Quote
DESIGN
1 - ASAF-F43 Interceptor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509336#msg7509336): Chiefwaffles
1 - Direct Application Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509387#msg7509387): Andres
2 - Berserker Array (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509356#msg7509356): helmacon, Kadzar
2 - Aerial Mobility Unit (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509576#msg7509576): Andrea, Draignean
0 - SA-1: Railed Man Cannon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509683#msg7509683):
1 - Overclock Process MK 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509758#msg7509758): FallacyofUrist
Post by: Draignean on July 13, 2017, 02:48:59 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2017, 02:51:07 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 13, 2017, 03:28:59 pm
Post by: Andres on July 13, 2017, 03:52:09 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: evictedSaint on July 13, 2017, 03:55:27 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 13, 2017, 04:02:11 pm
Oh fuck what the hell is this shit. I wake up and what do I see? Shooting soldiers out of cannons. That is a stupid idea and it's shameful that it managed to get 4 votes before a flightpack was thought up.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Now my giant fungus castles look sane in comparison.
Post by: Light forger on July 13, 2017, 04:36:44 pm
Falcon Air Skiff
The falcon is a Arstotzka's first foray into the field of flying thanks to a new and revolution essence generator. This new device creates "essence" out of magic, an element that is able to lift an object into the air if contained. However essence slowly fades away meaning a mages need to generate more, less the craft slowly(or quickly) falls out of the sky. The skiff is crew by either three or four mages, one to power a smaller version of protector's engine, one to power the essence generator and, then either two snipers, a sniper plus a crate of blastshells+e or, a gunner with a HAC-1. The essence is contained in two crystal tanks off to either side of the craft with walls thick enough to avoid being split by long range ballista bolts. The smaller version of the protector's engine fitted with large propeller blades is located at the back and otherwise the craft looks a normal skiff albeit made completely out of crystal. The craft can get up to a surprising speed but, it turns slowly as the only method of control is a rudder located directly behind the engine. This means the craft has to be moving to turn and does so quite slowly. Altitude is controlled by the mage either increasing or decreasing the flow of essence into the tanks. Gaining height is fairly slow and safely reducing it is nearly as slow. A small number of aethergems located in the craft means in theory a single mage can fly the craft with some difficulty.
Quote from: Designs
1 - ASAF-F43 Interceptor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509336#msg7509336): Chiefwaffles
1 - Direct Application Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509387#msg7509387): Andres
2 - Berserker Array (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509356#msg7509356): helmacon, Kadzar
2 - Aerial Mobility Unit (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509576#msg7509576): Andrea, Draignean
0 - SA-1: Railed Man Cannon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509683#msg7509683):
1 - Overclock Process MK 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509758#msg7509758): FallacyofUrist
1 - Falcon Air Skiff (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509877#msg7509877): Lightforger
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 13, 2017, 04:37:22 pm
So how does the Berserker Array solve any problems?
Moskurg uses really fast high-flying air units to attack us from above, and airships from extreme distances where we can't shoot at for long-range attacks.
Our problem is that the HA1 can't shoot at either of these places. Enemies directly above us are too fast flying and too high for the HA1 to be even able to try aiming at them. Long-range enemies outrange the HA1 when factoring in their wind spell.
The Berserker Array solves none of this. So the Berserker Array couldn't shoot at their air units and thus wouldn't help us at all.
This is why you should vote the the F43:
1.) We can revise the Jetpack if we design the F43. The F43 uses the "KPD" to move around, and we can just revise the KPD to strap it onto a soldier.
2.) The F43, with no awful rolls, will be able to solve the air problem. A jetpack just lets our soldiers help out a bit until Moskurg invents enclose ockpits. THe F43 is a solid interceptor that'll be helping us for the rest of the game.
3.) The KPD is an extremely useful tool that in addition to making the jetpack extremely easy to do, will help future tech. We could make so many things, like an actual flying airship!
4.) The F43 also helps with the ground, as its weapons apply there too, which would be extremely helpful. It can just fly over the range of their anti-magic.
5.) It's cool.
Also feedback regarding the F43 would be nice.
Post by: Andres on July 13, 2017, 04:37:57 pm
Aerial mobility unitThis design is heavily flawed. Worst about it is its lack of aethergems, which should've been an obvious inclusion but is noticeably absent. I mean come on, it requires a constant influx of energy. That's the perfect application for aethergems.
Blastballs allow us to increase the range of our shells, but a single big explosion has proved to not be the most efficient way to deal with the problem. Rather, they would work far better with a continuous rather than impulsive effect. Therefore much like the wall of flame or channeled fog we modify our traditional blastball to achieve a constant force applied on the point of summoning.
The first application of this new spell is in an add-on to our combat armor: a Crystal box positioned in the back of the combat suit, in the shape of a backpack. This box contains mostly A or AA magegems (as our designers see fit. Target cost is VE) and circuits that summon the continued blast spell on concave plates on the sides of the soldiers, near his Center of Mass. Those plates, are on a swivel mount and while normally they are blocked in position, the soldier can unlock them and move them to gain limited control during powered flights. This device will allow unprecedented mobility to our troops: jumping higher than a building, charging faster than a speeding bullets, impacting the enemies stronger than a locomotive ( and surprisingly, we actually can make the last 2 comparisons in this modern age). An AAA battery powers a small light in the visor , signaling the charge level of the aerial mobility unit (AMU). Provisions are made for adding an aethergem or at least linking to one externally through circuits, should such devices become cheap enough in the future.
Here, soldiers can fly, but at useful ranges without being killed by cannon.
Design: AS-AMA43
Aerial Mobility Armour
This is a new kind of combat armour. On its back is a small box-like contraption that, despite its appearance, most closely resembles a wand in nature as far as its effect goes. The box thing is a KPD - a Kinetic Propulsion Drive. It is a Blastball-derived propulsion system filled with circuitry that takes some knowledge from our Firewall. Instead of producing a single brief, large, omnidirectional push as with a regular blastball, it instead produces a constant monodirectional push.
IDEs rely on an omnidirectional blast moving pistons which then move machines. The KPD relies on a monodirectional blast which moves machines. By removing a middleman and focusing energy in the one relevant direction it needs to go in, speed and energy efficiency will be MUCH higher than with IDEs, the difference possibly being even greater than that between IDEs and steam engines.
Circuitry lining the interior of the armour produces "hard points" which anchor the effect of the KPD. In effect, this should mean we don't have to design a complex set of circuitry for the KPD to produce its pushes in free air. It's like if the KPD was a pencil and its flight production was the act of drawing a circle. The hard points mean it can simply trace a circle, rather than have to draw the circle freely with no aids. This inclusion should decrease design complexity and is enabled by our experience with circuitry.
The AMA43 is powered by AAA athergems, with Cheap, Expensive, and Very Expensive variants available, each having longer flight durations than the last. They also come with magegems to store energy when flight is not being produced and to provide an emergency source of energy in case the aethergems run dry.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 13, 2017, 04:40:15 pm
The F43's main innovation is the Kinetic Propulsion Drive. If we make the F43, all we need to do for a jetpack is revise the KPD to be able to be strapped onto a human. That's it.
So we'd be getting the jetpack and the F43. A jetpack still needs to catch up with Moskurg's aircraft. A jetpack still needs to avoid being shot at by Moskurg's aircraft. And the person with the jetpack has to directly land on a Moskurg aircraft without issue to have any effect. When Moskurg revises closed cockpits, what will we do then?
Post by: RAM on July 13, 2017, 04:53:13 pm
Oh, fine, you want flying machines? I'll give you flying machines! just need to... ergh, what all do we have? Heat? rejected, how could that help with flight? Webbing, fog, wasps, explosions, crystals, cold...
Waspinator
We tweak the crystalworks a little, and then a lot more, and produce a hybrid of wasps and webs and crystals. This combines the buoyancy of wasp magic, the cohesion of webbing, and the regeneration of crystal, along with some innat chilling circuits to stop the dense wasp-mesh material from overheating and cooking itself. Some anchoring gems are required to maintain the vitality aspect of the wasps, but they will survive long enough without it to sink gently and safe;y to the ground in case of antimagic. By incorporating the wasp-mesh into crystal fabrication we hope to involve mathemagics to the level at which the "flight" quality of wasps can be isolated and controlled, allowing a great bolstering of the effect, effectively allowing any altitude that we want. We then imbed cannons in the cardinal directions to provide mobility by shooting wet(we use a fog spell to add some mass to the propulsion) air and mount a crystal turret with a [insert whatever gun we can fit in a turret, those guns all have the same name and I can't be bothered telling them apart...]. Wasp mesh would, of course, be vulnerable to lightning, but would regenerate quickly enough. Twisters would be a problem but we can probably produce a cold-beam that will destroy them, and they do not have that many of them(cue: whirlwinds revised to be cheaper), and fire will burn through the wasp-mesh and fall out the bottom, to be regenerated...
Chill Pill
This is a concentrated tower of frost effect with an activated use instead of a permanent one. It contains a number of large magems in a cart along with a cart-load of complex circuitry. The effect is quite simple. It creates a very brief(generally only about 5 seconds) but powerful and tall(though not particularly wide) pillar of instant cold at a designated remote location. This causes a pillar of air to fall suddenly. This has the effect of destroying dust devils. It will also cause severe turbulence for any aircraft too. Thus the "chilling pillar" effect will nullify their tornadoes and interfere with their aircraft while advancing our universal field theory.
Quote
DESIGN
1 - ASAF-F43 Interceptor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509336#msg7509336): Chiefwaffles
1 - Direct Application Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509387#msg7509387): Andres
2 - Berserker Array (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509356#msg7509356): helmacon, Kadzar
2 - Aerial Mobility Unit (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509576#msg7509576): Andrea, Draignean
0 - SA-1: Railed Man Cannon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509683#msg7509683):
2 - Overclock Process MK 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509758#msg7509758): FallacyofUrist, RAM
0 Weightite:
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2017, 05:21:41 pm
Quote
DESIGN
2 - ASAF-F43 Interceptor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509336#msg7509336): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
1 - Direct Application Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509387#msg7509387): Andres
2 - Berserker Array (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509356#msg7509356): helmacon, Kadzar
2 - Aerial Mobility Unit (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509576#msg7509576): Andrea, Draignean
0 - SA-1: Railed Man Cannon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509683#msg7509683):
1 - Overclock Process MK 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509758#msg7509758): RAM
0 Weightite:
Post by: Draignean on July 13, 2017, 05:26:08 pm
After a lengthy conversation in Discord in which Chiefwaffles promised we'd try to use the tech from the F43 to go into space next turn barring an emergency, and in which he explained why this thing is going to work, I decided to vote for the F43 instead.
use the tech from the F43 to go into space next turn barring an emergency,
go into space next turn
I think I just heard ES either develop alcoholism or burst out laughing, I'm not sure which.
Post by: Light forger on July 13, 2017, 05:27:37 pm
Quote from: Designs
2 - ASAF-F43 Interceptor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509336#msg7509336): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
1 - Direct Application Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509387#msg7509387): Andres
2 - Berserker Array (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509356#msg7509356): helmacon, Kadzar
2 - Aerial Mobility Unit (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509576#msg7509576): Andrea, Draignean
0 - SA-1: Railed Man Cannon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509683#msg7509683):
1 - Overclock Process MK 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509758#msg7509758): RAM
1 - Falcon Air Skiff (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509877#msg7509877): Lightforger
0 Weightite:
The skiff got dropped from the vote box so added it back in. Also can some post here/pm me a link to the discord. The other links I found where expired.
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 13, 2017, 05:29:27 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2017, 05:30:12 pm
~~~
Just one weapon wouldn't be all that useful, and doing all this is within our reach.
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 13, 2017, 05:32:51 pm
Quote from: Designs
2 - ASAF-F43 Interceptor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509336#msg7509336): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
1 - Direct Application Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509387#msg7509387): Andres
2 - Berserker Array (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509356#msg7509356): helmacon, Kadzar
2 - Aerial Mobility Unit (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509576#msg7509576): Andrea, Draignean
0 - SA-1: Railed Man Cannon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509683#msg7509683):
1 - Overclock Process MK 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509758#msg7509758): RAM
1 - Falcon Air Skiff (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509877#msg7509877): Lightforger
0 Weightite:
1 War Falcons: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509729#msg7509729) Void Slayer
I mean one weapon with multiple reloads, do you want this thing to be anti aircraft or some kind of air cannon ship or a bomber? Concentrating on one type of weapon will reduce the chance we overload the thing and add in more complications.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2017, 05:33:47 pm
Post by: Gwolfski on July 13, 2017, 05:34:47 pm
Quote from: Designs
3 - ASAF-F43 Interceptor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509336#msg7509336): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist,Gwolfski
1 - Direct Application Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509387#msg7509387): Andres
2 - Berserker Array (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509356#msg7509356): helmacon, Kadzar
2 - Aerial Mobility Unit (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509576#msg7509576): Andrea, Draignean
0 - SA-1: Railed Man Cannon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509683#msg7509683):
1 - Overclock Process MK 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509758#msg7509758): RAM
1 - Falcon Air Skiff (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509877#msg7509877): Lightforger
0 Weightite:
1 War Falcons: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509729#msg7509729) Void Slayer
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 13, 2017, 05:35:48 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 13, 2017, 05:37:54 pm
Sure, we may be making a satellite in the year 944, and it may be a magical satellite, but it's possible! With the F43 we'll have what's basically a rocket drive able to move things into space and that doesn't rely on fuel. We'd just need to do a bit of research into orbital mechanics with our Mathemagicians and bam, we're in space!
the ASAF-F43 Interceptor has WAAAAAY too many weapons. I count 3 cannons. All our cannons can be breach loaded, choose one and have the pilot able to load it from the inside through a sliding hatch. We can make a larger multi role fighter at a later time, this thing needs to be able to get in the air and shoot things.That's not particularly viable, unfortunately. The ASAF-F43 needs to have weapons that can be used and work against its opponents. The HC1-E is practically the bare minimum for armor-penetration, yet it's not too viable for a pilot to breech-load their own weapons. And that's like putting a tank cannon on an interceptor.
Though saying it has three cannons is mildly misleading.
The ASAF-F43 has three weapons, yes, but not really three cannons.
1.) A standard AS-HAC-1 cannon for general anti-personnel use and for armor-piercing at short range as a last resort. Reloaded from inside the cockpit. Small and light. I may be willing to remove this if people think I should, though.
2.) Two single-use "Blastpods" for launching blastshells at the enemy. This would be too bulky to reload mid-flight + ammo is heavy so we just reload it on the ground.
3.) A single +E Blastshell in a "bomb bay" that is just dropped at the enemy. Requires very little space, is simple, and is effective.
And the AS-HAC-1 wouldn't be that good against Moskurger skiffs. According to the last battle phase, the AS-HAC-1 can penetrate Skiff armor at close range. The HAC in the F43 can also be used for shooting the crew of Skiffs and Airships from above and for annihilating any remaining targets.
Post by: andrea on July 13, 2017, 05:38:59 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 13, 2017, 05:39:33 pm
If you have doubts, remember we have two expense credits to throw at it.
Post by: Andres on July 13, 2017, 05:47:24 pm
Quote from: Designs
4 - ASAF-F43 Interceptor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509336#msg7509336): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist,Gwolfski, Andres
1 - Direct Application Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509387#msg7509387): Andres
2 - Berserker Array (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509356#msg7509356): helmacon, Kadzar
2 - Aerial Mobility Unit (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509576#msg7509576): Andrea, Draignean
0 - SA-1: Railed Man Cannon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509683#msg7509683):
1 - Overclock Process MK 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509758#msg7509758): RAM
1 - Falcon Air Skiff (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509877#msg7509877): Lightforger
0 Weightite:
1 War Falcons: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509729#msg7509729) Void Slayer
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Andres on July 13, 2017, 05:54:39 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
EDIT: And turn the bomb bay into hard points so that something which negatively affects flight doesn't have to be so necessarily great. Maybe also include additional aethergems instead of bombs to give it increased flight time.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 13, 2017, 05:56:54 pm
The idea behind the HAC is to allow for the F43 to have a greater deployment time. While I see your point, I'm worried that the F43 will be too underarmed. They have Skiffs, Airships, and carpets after all.
Post by: Andres on July 13, 2017, 06:05:04 pm
No, replacing it with a third blastpod will not work. Get rid of the HAC-1 and the blastpods. Leave only the bombs. The result is a lighter, faster, less complex aircraft with weapons that won't damage the craft when they're used. It's still excellent as a scout aircraft and its bombs mean that it can take out their airships. They're not good for skiffs and carpets, but you need to understand that those things require different tools to defeat: rifles to kill their carpets and HAC-1s with explosive ammunition to kill their skiffs.
If you want aircraft to have any kind of cannon, get a skyship. Cannons have no place being on a single-person aircraft of the F43's kind. If you want an interceptor with weapons besides bombs, you need to start proposing some groundwork designs because everything we have now won't work.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 13, 2017, 06:07:43 pm
What if we leave only the HAC-1 and upgrade it to have explosive ammo?
Edit: We honestly do not have any weapon that would be a good fit for this aircraft. Except maybe our normal fireball...
Post by: Light forger on July 13, 2017, 06:09:52 pm
First off how do the wings works with it's propulsion system? Do they have control surfaces(aka flaps/foils) otherwise all they are doing is reducing maneuverability. If this is going to be a UFO why not use a circle for the wing design letting it generate lift when it flies in any direction. Further to the point why add wings at all if we have a 'force wave' pushing the craft at all times?
Next off the the thing is going to weigh a ton. It needs to be armored enough to tank a ballistae bolt since due to lucky strike dodging is unlikely. Next off it's armed with a breech loading single shot cannon. How is the pilot going to reload that and fly the craft? Our HAC isn't exactly small or low recoil. Finally in addition it's armed with both "rockets" and bomb, this is our first aircraft that is alot of weight to mount on the thing.
For the air skiff 90% of the design is spent on the essence generator with 9% being spent on changing the protector's engine and 1% on the hull. Further more if we do get the generator to work we can in effect making flying warships and, not have to worry able being sniped/lightninged out of the sky.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 13, 2017, 06:31:52 pm
Our problem is the Moskurger air units. The F43 aims to fix that.
@Light forger:
Wings - The wings are primarily there for style. They add some energy efficiency with lift and their impact to speed should negligible. Really, though, it's for style. The impact of wings should be minimal and ultimately they're just there to have the F43 look cool.
Weight - 1.) It's made out of crystal (and its strength means we need small amounts of crystal to tank ballista bolts) 2.) It's small 3.) The KPD should be able to handle everything else.
AS-HAC-1 Reloading & Weight - The F43 should be able to hover. And this isn't just some extra design goal, but a consequence of the nature of the KPD. So reloading while hovering or flying in a straight direction.
Also, Evicted posted the calibers of our guns in Discord.
Quote from: evictedSaint (Discord)
R1 11 mm's
HAC-1 14 mm's
HC1-E 47 mm's
HA1 81 mm's
One last thing:
I'm updating the F43 to make sacrifices in the Blastpods. The barrel will be shorter and the blast less powerful for thinner walls. The Blastpod will only be able to shoot up to Medium range. Long range using a +R shell.
This is instead of the HC1-E's Extreme range.
This should make it so the Blastpods are significantly lighter.
Post by: helmacon on July 13, 2017, 06:50:46 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 13, 2017, 06:53:19 pm
As for the cannons, I'm probably not budging anymore. The AS-HAC-1 is, as I expected, quite small. And I did just greatly reduce the Blastpods in size by halving their range.
Post by: Draignean on July 13, 2017, 06:57:54 pm
I believe in the jet packs, I believe in the falcons, I don't know if I believe in this.
Quote from: Designs
4 - ASAF-F43 Interceptor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509336#msg7509336): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist,Gwolfski, Andres
1 - Direct Application Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509387#msg7509387): Andres
1 - Berserker Array (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509356#msg7509356): Kadzar
3 - Aerial Mobility Unit (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509576#msg7509576): Andrea, Draignean, Helmacon
0 - SA-1: Railed Man Cannon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509683#msg7509683):
1 - Overclock Process MK 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509758#msg7509758): RAM
1 - Falcon Air Skiff (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509877#msg7509877): Lightforger
0 Weightite:
1 War Falcons: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509729#msg7509729) Void Slayer
Post by: helmacon on July 13, 2017, 07:00:15 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 13, 2017, 07:03:50 pm
Let's walk through our current cannon designs.
HC1-E: Our first cannon with some later revisions. Makes sense that it'd be a design.
HA1: A huge cannon unlocking a never-seen-before range that Moskurg still can't actually reach (without height bonus) to this day.
AS-HAC-1: The first downscaling (EDIT: For reference, the HC1-E is ~50mm. The AS-HAC-1 is 13mm. That's significant downscaling) of a cannon plus lower caliber plus the first introduction of breech-loading.
AS-R1: A cannon reduced in size (and caliber) to be able to fit in one's hand, introduces (poorly) non-boiler cannons, and is powered by Magegems.
Now let's look at the Blastpod.
Blastpod: Shorten the barrel of the HC1-E, make the sides thinner, and reduce the power of the spell.
An interceptor is only useful if it has weapons to intercept with.
Post by: RAM on July 13, 2017, 07:21:16 pm
Post by: Kadzar on July 13, 2017, 07:22:55 pm
Quote from: Designs
4 - ASAF-F43 Interceptor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509336#msg7509336): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist,Gwolfski, Andres
1 - Direct Application Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509387#msg7509387): Andres
0 - Berserker Array (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509356#msg7509356):
4 - Aerial Mobility Unit (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509576#msg7509576): Andrea, Draignean, Helmacon, Kadzar
0 - SA-1: Railed Man Cannon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509683#msg7509683):
1 - Overclock Process MK 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509758#msg7509758): RAM
1 - Falcon Air Skiff (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509877#msg7509877): Lightforger
0 Weightite:
1 War Falcons: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509729#msg7509729) Void Slayer
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 13, 2017, 07:31:03 pm
The difference here is that we already have experience in Blastball-based propulsion. It is primitive, but combined with our extreme Fireball/Blastball mastery, this is very possible.
And like I said, the goal here is to beat Moskurg in the air by suddenly adding a new factor to it.
Moskurg ships are all meant for one thing: Ground support. They're fast to avoid getting hit by ground-based defenses and armored from the bottom to be protected from ground-based defenses.
Their pilots are out in the open, their air-to-air weapons are greatly lacking, and they aren't prepared for this.
So if we introduce a fighter designed specifically for dogfighting, then we will have a very good chance at winning. Sure, their aircraft would probably beat the F43 no matter how well it could roll when it comes to effectiveness against ground units, but we don't need that.
We just need to win in dogfighting, something Moskurg has never prepared for.
@RAM:
That's actually a good point about weight.
However, I fully doubt they'll be able to use their anti-projectile wind magic against the F43. The F43 isn't a bullet and isn't a shell. Their magic is for decreasing the range of the unpowered shells.
No matter how light the F43 is relative to aircraft, it's going to be much heavier than a shell. And it's going to be constantly moving itself. And it changes course. It'll take serious dedicated effort by Moskurg to attempt countering the F43 with wind, and while they do that we can make the F43 even better or make new aircraft.
Also daily reminder that with the F43 designed, we can just revise jetpacks. All we'd need to do is revise the KPD so it can be strapped onto combat armor.
EDIT: Also, the offer to replace the description of the F43's appearance/shape if someone posts an alternative is still standing.
Post by: Andres on July 14, 2017, 12:13:16 am
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 14, 2017, 12:24:22 am
Our soldiers aren't exactly immune to their aircraft weapons. Any of them, actually.
Then there's the whole part where their aircraft are extremely fast and the jetpack would have to let our soldiers catch up to them.
Oh, also, Lucky Strike. Remember how their arrows pierced the eyeslits of our old plate armor? Killing troops trying to jetpack their way up won't exactly be a challenge for them.
Post by: Andres on July 14, 2017, 12:33:33 am
Sorry, how exactly do jetpacks help us?Infantry battles, skirmishing, scouting, and running down routing troops (something which our commanders have said we have lots of trouble with).
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 14, 2017, 12:40:41 am
Post by: Andres on July 14, 2017, 12:49:41 am
I'm going to keep on harping on about how the Protector sucks and how much of a mistake it was to design it until it stops being relevant.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: helmacon on July 14, 2017, 12:54:42 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 14, 2017, 01:04:37 am
AS-HAC-1: This is a small gun. It's 13mm. That's extremely reasonable to put on an aircraft.
Blasttubes: We need these for the F43 to be effective at anti-air. I already made serious sacrifices her by cutting heir range in half.
Bomb: I don't need to convince you on this, but it does nothing for the Moskurg air problem
By itself.
And no, it was not a mistake to design the Protector. We just got a bad bug roll. We could have fixed it, but nope. We had to spend our last two revisions on flash-flares and the mundane
Post by: RAM on July 14, 2017, 01:51:51 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 14, 2017, 02:00:36 am
Loading the gun can be done while flying because of the way the KPD works.
Because the KPD works through the Blastball-like "cushion" of force, hovering is something that comes naturally with it and doesn't have to be an extra design goal.
So loading the gun (via breech-loading, which isn't that effort-intensive) is very possible while flying. One can just have the ship move forward, and if they don't want to move that much, they can just have it move forward slowly or hover in place. And while this is happening, the person can quickly reload the gun.
Concentration-wise, the F43 is equipped with a set of Aethergems. Of course it's practically insane to believe that the Aethergems could allow for mundane use of the craft, but they will both reduce the strain on the wizard in keeping the craft powered and will allow the wizard to stop powering the craft completely for small periods of time.
Bonus points is that with the Agems, even if they run out of stored power and there isn't a mage running the ship, the fact that they charge means the KPD can have some functionality. Wouldn't be much, but it's the difference between "crash landing with survivors" and "the aircraft flying apart as it hits the ground at high speeds."
TL;DR: Loading the gun is easy, the ship can hover (or just move in one direction) while doing so. And Aethergems allow for less strain on the pilot + allow for brief operation without the pilot powering the craft at all.
Though with that being said, I'm not attached to the AS-HAC-1. If removing it is enough to convince someone to vote for the F43, I'll seriously consider doing so. While it is small and I don't think it'd have a negative effect, its positive effects aren't particularly groundbreaking.
Post by: helmacon on July 14, 2017, 02:05:58 am
Post by: RAM on July 14, 2017, 02:57:47 am
I am not clear on the position of the hack-on, it is in the front of the cock-pit, but where? Is it basically in front of the pilot's face? That could be awkward but would help with aiming. Or it could be protruding from the front of the seat? Is there a seat? Have you considered a ramp instead?
I am still concerned about the sound. People wear ear protection when firing 9mm pistols. Rifles tend to be worse, and these are known to be quite powerful, as I understand it, being more powerful than conventional armaments of the same calibre. I feel as though our 14mm cannon is similar in potency to the 20mm autocannon from Intercontinental... And then there is the issue of an enclosed space. Unless the crystals are transparent to sound(maybe a good revision, to prevent sonic weapons from working... and to give our troops improved-awareness/that-wonderful-nude-feeling. But probably impossible. I mean, a solid object that ignores sound, I mean, sure, it is magic, and visible-spectrum light can go through pretty readily, but not perfectly, maybe improve that too, so that it is completely impossible to see any distortions in the visible spectrum from light being deflected through its structure? It would act like an invisible barrier and make physicists cry, like, seriously, that is some very very wrong stuff right there. So much so that I am hesitant to try, but it would be a perfect accompaniment to laser-weapons...
Revision: invisible crystals
We refine our transparent crystals so that they are completely invisible, by mathemagically isolating the magical signature for "light" that we have refined so well with our flare spells and simply removing all traces of it from the mathemagical equations we are using to generate our crystals. While this will aid immensely in scope covers(the internal lenses would need to be old-fashioned merely-transparent crystals to provide magnification, unless we use magic to magnify) and vision ports(but also handy for using flares from within a vehicle to full effectiveness with no fear of glare rebounding upon the user), it is, perhaps, most convenient for demonstrating to The Saint(may she never rain death upon us). When our mages are seen clearly demonstrating the material by laying atop it, demonstrating its smooth surface by presenting a painted object, then cleaning off its surfaces and polishing them to complete imperceptibility(while behind a curtain, no need to sully their eyes with common cleaning behaviour.) and for a bit of novelty presenting a plant potted in it and for a bit of showmanship we can grow the plant while nobody is in its vicinity and The Saint(May we be spared from her wrath) is engaged in conversation. The view of a plant's roots as it grows should be fascinating. It would just be too bad if there were some communication errors and the precise nature of our achievements were not adequately communicated...
Of secondary importance is applying the reverse of this. Imbuing the transparent crystal with the pure essence of light, bereft of context. This should cause it to imbue a specific measure of light upon whatever vision passes through it, resulting in the appearance of a bright day regardless of actual lighting conditions.
) they will rebound the sound of the cannon around the small quarters of the cock-pit and amplify the damage to the pilot's ears. I cannot help but to believe that it would be well in excess of an order of magnitude more damaging to sonic receptors than being subjecting to a firing range for common 9x19mm calibre pistols. Perhaps it would be best to sort out the ammunition first? Weightite beckons...
I imagine that loading while in an unsteady craft is going to be tedious and distracting. They are going to take a long time about it and be blind for the duration. Further, I expect that the craft will be inherently unstable. You all passed up the chance to have living magic and now we don't have any computers to keep our aircraft steady while being reloaded. It is all fine and well to say that the thing applies even force in all directions, but unless it is spinning it is going to be extremely unstable if it is relying upon direct thrust, extremely so in inclement weather. I would not be the least bit surprised to find that they need to land in order to reload. It is basically like trying to balance a spinning top upon your finger without spinning it, you have all the force you need but balancing the thing is a thing of enormity. I mean, sure, "a wizard did it" but it would be so much more plausible if we had living spells that could dedicate themselves to keeping the thing stable with minor attitude adjustments.
Post by: andrea on July 14, 2017, 03:06:31 am
I believe Andres wanted that, and he was quite right.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 14, 2017, 06:17:36 am
The F43 is no longer using Blastpods or the AS-HAC-1. Instead, it will use a gunner manning a 20mm ball turret placed on the back of the F43. The wings have also been removed.
The result will be much more effective. The 20mm cannon should be just enough to reliably pierce Moskurger armor and will still be fairly light and easy to reload with light ammunition. Compared to the AS-HAC-1 which is lower caliber and thus has harder time with armor piercing.
But it's much lighter than the HC1-E, still.
Overall this should be easier. The Blastpods + AS-HAC-1 + wings would be a lot heavier than a gunner and a 20mm ball turret. The ball turret is just simple mechanics + minor caliber change, which should come naturally to use given how often we do caliber changes. This is compared to making single-use HC1-E barrels reduced in length+general size then remotely activating them + their blastshells from the cockpit then hoping the heavy slow shells hit the target.
The gunner will be able to reliably fight the fast-moving skiffs and carpets, and the 20mm gun should be just big enough to pierce their armor. Maybe not as effectively as a HA1 or HC1-E, but effectively enough.
I'm switching people's votes over from the old F43. Gwolfski seemed to be okay with it on Discord, this is basically Andres' original idea, this is my design, and Fallacy largely agreed to the F43 for space-related reasons and also suggested using a gunner.
If someone could come up a new appearance, that'd be great.
Design: ASAF-F43 Interceptor (Updated)
Arstotzka needs a presence in the air. There are only so many ways we can prevent aerial attacks from the ground. We need to cut off the Moskurger threat at its roots - in the air.
The F43, named after the year of its design, is interesting. At first we looked at the bird with its large wings made purely for flying. After a few failed prototypes, we gave up on this idea. Sure, it could be made to work. But we don't need to work within the bounds of something so mundane.
We decided to base the F43 off of the Blastball. We already use it for propulsion - for the Blastshell. But we need something more versatile. Something that isn't just shaped explosions near an object to change its velocity.
Introducing the Kinetic Propulsion Drive. In a way, it's based off of the IDE. Using our extensive Fireball experience, we fill the KPD with extensive circuitry allowing it to exert a precise constant Blastball-derived propulsion. Calibrated for the shape of its host's hull, it creates constant pressure just outside the hull. Not explosions, but just... force. Allowing us to move any kind of object throughout the sky regardless of its shape, and giving us great freedom with weight.
The KPD is powered by an AAA Aethergem array, filled with as many AAA Aethergems as possible. We hope to allow for the KPD to remain powered without requiring a human mage, but as that's unlikely, a more reasonable goal is to allow for the Mage to only have to spend very small amounts of concentration on powering the craft and to allow for future upgrades to the power supply.
The F43 has an interesting shape. Ultimately we did choose to go with a vaguely bird-related aerodynamic shape to allow for increased efficiency when moving forwards. It's a small craft, as we don't wish to have to spend too much time on the KPD's power.
It's small. The pilot sits in a small "cockpit". The cockpit is almost entirely Crystal Glass for protection and visibility, and is shaped like a bubble or tear. The cockpit is just big enough to fit the pilot somewhat comfortably and the controls for the craft. A crystal glass secure small "door"-hatch allows for the pilot to disembark. Crystal Glass should be able to tank a ballistae bolt though we recommend not getting hit (which should be easy) regardless.
Behind the cockpit is a ball turret. Based off of the gear/movement principles of the AS-HAC-1, the ball turret is, well. It's a Crystal Glass ball, big enough for a gunner, a gun, and a respectable amount of ammunition.
The ball turret is mounted behind the cockpit and raised a bit, so it can shoot forward. It can shoot in any direction not blocked by the small cockpit and is aimed using gears inside the ball turret. A secure hatch allows the gunner to enter and exit the ball turret, though doing this in flight tends to be recommended against unless the gunner is very confident in their balance and the hovering abilities of the F43.
The ball turret uses a special kind of gun also based off of the AS-HAC-1. It's practically the same thing, except it uses a 20mm round instead of the AS-HAC-1's 14mm. This mild increase in caliber should allow for largely reliable armor piercing (at least for the airship+skiff) while keeping a high muzzle velocity (for shooting the fast targets) and a light gun+ammunition.
In the past we've made a lot of cannons. Caliber changes have become quite mundane for us, really. This is practically just increasing the size of the AS-HAC-1 barrel by a relatively small amount.
Finally, a "bomb bay" at the back of the cockpit is a small container with a hatch that opens to the air below the cockpit. This hatch can be opened via a lever accessible to the pilot.
The bomb bay is to hold at least one (2-3 if we're feeling really lucky) +E blastshell which will just fall towards the enemy. This will be used largely against enemy ground forces and occasionally airships.
Resistive/Non-Resistive crystal layering is in place to provide protection against lightning. This is possible thanks to the Crystalworks Mk. 2; all we have to do is flip a switch!
In order to control the craft, we have spent a negligible amount of time developing two AAA Magegems into globe-shaped input devices. There are two small-ish globes in the cockpit - one for each hand. The capacitive AAA Magegems register input from touching/rotation and this input is sent to the KPD's circuitry.
One globe is used to control the rotation of the F43, and one is used to control the direction of the thrust. This seemed to be the only method to allow for full control of the F43's complete freedom of movement.
The F43 can (probably) float. We assure you there's a reason for this.
With very careful precaution a F43 can be secured onto a Crystalclad for later liftoff, and it being powered by a Mage or Aethergems, it can be launched from the shore with a virtually unlimited range as well.
Kinetic Propulsion Drive - An "engine" filled with circuitry taking advantage of our Fireball experience + circuitry experience to allow it to use a Blastball-derived propulsion system, where it effectively just applies force to parts of its parent hull for movement. This is the main focus of the design. The rest is essentially building something to put the KPD inside. Basically, the KPD is a relatively large "wand" that casts the blastball-like propulsion around the hull of the craft for propulsion. Think of it like a wand that casts a derived-from-Blastball spell that "pushes" the hull at specific places in order to move the ship.
Power Generator - An integrated array of as many AAA Aethergems as possible without increasing expense and while remaining practical. The AAA Aethergems should focus as much as possible on powering the KPD without need for a Mage, but I realize this is by far the best-case scenario. If this (unlikely) goal doesn't get achieved, the Power Generator will be to allow the Mage to concentrate on other things, stop powering the KPD for a bit at a time, and for future upgrading so we can make it mundane-useable.
Range - Being fuel-less, the F43 has a virtually unlimited range. Its only limiting factor here is how long the pilot can stay awake/survive.
Propulsion - The KPD allows for UFO-like free movement with great speeds in any direction, through the F43 will still be streamlined in one direction to make it a bit faster when going "Forward". Think of it like the KPD just "pushes" the craft in the direction it wants to go from the outside.
--Hovering - Its propulsion naturally allows for hovering with no extra effort other than developing the KPD itself. Hovering doesn't really require any interaction by the pilot (as long as it's not knocked off balance when hovering) as long as the KPD is charged.
Control - Two globe-shaped capacitive AAA magegems, one for each hand, send input to the KPD. One is rotation, the other is direction of thrust.
Armor + Anti-Lightning - Armor should be enough to stop a ballista bolt, and resistive layering (Thanks to CW Mk. 2) allows for the craft to be lightning-resistant.
Cabin/Turret Climate Control - Just throw in some circuits in there to keep the cockpit+turret at a set temperature.
Weapons (20mm Ball Turret) - A ball turret attached to the back of the cockpit is made out of Crystal Glass (enough to at least stop a ballistae bolt) and is rotated via gears inside the turret. A gunner sits inside the turret and aims it + fires a 20mm AS-HAC-1 variant. 20mm should be enough to allow it pierce airship or (more importantly) skiff armor while still being light+easy-to-aim. Caliber change is based on our many cannon designs and how much experience we have with caliber changes at this point. Should be great vs skiffs + carpets and have limited effectiveness vs airships.
Weapons (Bombs) - A small bomb bay in the cockpit is filled with 1-3 (realistically just 1 is our goal) +E Blastshells to be dropped onto airships/ground forces by opening a hatch via lever accessible to the pilot.
Deployment - The F43 is of course to be deployed everywhere. On sea, it should mostly be able to be deployed from the shores thanks to its range, though if needed a single F43 could probably be secured onto a Crystalclad due to its small size.
Difficulty - This is fairly ambitious, but definitely not impossible. We have so much experience with the Fireball, and we've even already used the Blastball as propulsion. The challenge here is creating the Kinetic Propulsion Drive using our experience with Fireballs. Then we just make a small+light hull out of crystal and slap on some weapons.
Expense - I'm aiming for Expensive (Cheap may be possible but is really just a pipe dream) but Very Expensive is a very possible outcome. +1 to expense should help here. Circuits (which the Kinetic Propulsion Drive is practically made of) are cheap. Crystal is cheap + the Crystalworks. AS-HAC-1 (which the ball turret basically is) is cheap. Every part is cheap, so that shouldn't be a problem.
TL;DR - We make an "engine" able to give its parent object UFO-like propulsion (can move in any direction with great speed). Then we build a small+light crystal hull around it. Then give it weapons.
Quote from: Designs
4 - ASAF-F43 Interceptor (Updated) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7510272#msg7510272): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist,Gwolfski, Andres
1 - Direct Application Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509387#msg7509387): Andres
0 - Berserker Array (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509356#msg7509356):
4 - Aerial Mobility Unit (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509576#msg7509576): Andrea, Draignean, Helmacon, Kadzar
0 - SA-1: Railed Man Cannon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509683#msg7509683):
1 - Overclock Process MK 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509758#msg7509758): RAM
1 - Falcon Air Skiff (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509877#msg7509877): Lightforger
0 Weightite:
1 War Falcons: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509729#msg7509729) Void Slayer
Post by: andrea on July 14, 2017, 06:30:54 am
Quote from: Designs
5 - ASAF-F43 Interceptor (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509336#msg7509336): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist,Gwolfski, Andres, Andrea
1 - Direct Application Frost Towers (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509387#msg7509387): Andres
0 - Berserker Array (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509356#msg7509356):
3 - Aerial Mobility Unit (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509576#msg7509576): Draignean, Helmacon, Kadzar
0 - SA-1: Railed Man Cannon (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509683#msg7509683):
1 - Overclock Process MK 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509758#msg7509758): RAM
1 - Falcon Air Skiff (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509877#msg7509877): Lightforger
0 Weightite:
1 War Falcons: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7509729#msg7509729) Void Slayer
I am switching vote. However, it should be kept in mind that Andres was considering switching, so rolling may be premature
Post by: RAM on July 14, 2017, 03:41:14 pm
Adding a massive upgrade to the calibre of our most complex cannon on top of that is just begging for fail. And unless the cannoneer is shielded from the cannon when it fires they are going to lose their ears. Is it an open-air cannon with an armoured cannoneer?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 14, 2017, 04:06:33 pm
Also the AS-HAC-1 fires 14 mm. The HC1-E fires ~47 mm.
To base the new cannon off of the HC1-E, which is artillery, would be pretty silly. The difference in caliber would be bigger and the HC-E is nothing close to what we want.
And 14mm to 20mm is not a 100% difference.
Frankly we've had so much ease with caliber size recently. The HC1-E, The AS-HAC-1, the HA1, the R1...
Each gun was done with less experience and was way more than just caliber size and the change in size was much bigger (other than R1) than what we're doing in the F43.
And now we have extensive experience in new weaponry like his and all we're doing is a tweak in size. That's it. Nothing new. Just making the AS-HAC-1 a bit bigger.
It should be easy.
Post by: evictedSaint on July 14, 2017, 06:42:50 pm
Post by: Andres on July 15, 2017, 02:37:51 am
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on July 15, 2017, 03:30:48 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 15, 2017, 09:39:45 am
Like that one crystal wood design you made that was actually explosive reactive armor, but everyone thought was just slightly better wood.
Here's a future design, by the way.
(Near?) Future Design: Mindgem Targetting Visor
We initially set upon this design with the intention of simply upgrading Crystal Glass to be able to "highlight" living entities and magical signatures.
The visor itself is ultimately just tweaked Crystal Glass and can be integrated with Crystal just like Crystal Glass. While it (hopefully) isn't expensive, we don't recommend on completely replacing crystal glass for it for expense-related reasons.
However, we call this "Reactive Crystal Glass". In response to certain types of magic current exciting bits of the crystal glass, that portion of the crystal will light up. Just a bit - not anywhere near enough to be considered a light, but enough to be obvious to someone looking at the crystal glass, to indicate a position or information, while still retaining a degree of transparency.
Reactive Crystal Glass is the easy part, however. It's jut some mild integration of our knowledge of anti-magic gems into the Crystalworks. Nothing mind-blowing. The actual challenge of the design is introduced here. Mindgems.
Mindgems have been a theory for ages. The idea is that we create a type of Magegem with a more unique structure able to host an intelligence. Of course, the structure doesn't come even within viewing distance of the complexity of any kind of brain. It's simply there to facilitate holding of a magical kind of mind. Those of lesser intelligence, such as Moskurgers, may call this mind a "soul". But it is simply the magical signature, the "engram", of a mind.
We have to start small, though. And with something we're familiar with. We already have experience with minds, but it's limited experience with simple minds. To make the most out of this knowledge, we start with the mind of a Wasp. Incredibly simple, yet possible. We already know how to summon a wasp magically, and thus can extract its Engram quite easily. We just isolate the portion used to summon the mind, "remove" (in the simplest terms) the physical manifestation of this mind, and through this process can isolate the Engram.
Then we just summon the Engram into the Mindgem. We call the Wasp-intelligence Mindgem "Generation 1", and will increment the generation for more intelligent versions in the future. Gen1 Mindgems will be perfect for simple tasks involving relatively straightforward input and output, but that are much more complicated than would be practical to achieve using circuits.
The Mindgem should be able to persist without power input, as though it is a magical entity, it should have a natural connection to the Aether like any other human. While not practical to try to exploit this for Aethergem-like energy on the side, it should mean no additional power is needed. Though it is acceptable if the Mindgem has a slight power input requirement.
A Generation 1 Mindgem shall be linked to the Visor via crystal wiring. As magical "waves" (one of the first discoveries in the field of Mathemagics!), byproducts of both magic and magical+"mundane" life, hit the Mindgem, it shall process the magical waves and highlight their origins on the visor.
The result is a Visor for soldiers that can highlight sources of magic and life. It highlights Arstotzkan life and magic too of course, but if anything that should be a benefit as our soldiers should hopefully not be too stupid. So soldiers can easily locate stranded men, outposts, and they can easily locate Moskurger mages, soldiers, and ambushes.
The Targeting Visor and Mindgem shall be incorporated into as many suits of Combat Armor as possible, with priority on our Mage Hunters, Artillery Officers, and other ranged soldiers.
We hope to one day achieve greatness in the field of Engram technology. Perhaps we could create minds of vastly superior intelligence to make great feats possible. Perhaps we can transfer the Engrams of dying Arstotzkans into Mindgems where they may live forever. But that's for the future.
TL;DR: Make a wasp Mindgem (Gen1 Mindgem), and link it to a special type of Crystal Glass that lights up bits of it with magic signals. The Mindgem will interpret incoming magical waves to highlight all forms of life and magic sources on the visor. Integrate the visor into combat armor.
There are a lot easier ways to do a targeting visor, but the point of this design is to develop Mindgems. Which are awesome. Here is what mindgems can do in the future:
1.) Auto-aiming artillery
2.) Auto-aiming turrets
3.) Autonomous vehicles
4.) Targetting assistance for soldiers (more-so than just highlighting enemies. Wind, bullet drop, enemy armor, weakpoints, etc.)
5.) Complicated machinery
6.) Power armor
7.)
8.) Piloting spaceships. (Orbital mechanics is hard)
9.) Targeting orbital weapons (Orbital mechanics is indeed quite hard)
Feedback is of course, appreciated.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 15, 2017, 01:25:44 pm
Are you going to do the sealed vehicle stuff with atmospheric control and whatnot for the revision? Because that would be wonderful for space. Spaaaace.
Post by: andrea on July 15, 2017, 01:28:35 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on July 15, 2017, 01:43:23 pm
The F43 is Arstotzka's first attempt to get a man into the air.
The method of flight is via a very precise PSF-C propulsion method; attempts to create an "on-going explosion" didn't quite pan out, but it is possible to instead fire off a PSF-C four times a second to create a similar effect. This is referred to proudly as the Kinetic Propulsion Drive.
The craft relies entirely on AAA-level Aethergems (also referred to as "AAAethergems") in order to cut costs. Because it takes ten AAAethergems to create a single PSF-C, the craft is made up almost entirely of them. In order to prevent the craft from running out of power, this means it requires 2,400 AAAethergems to allow sections to fire off while others recharge. The timing of this massive (and I do mean truly massive) AAAethergem array is controlled via a set of complicated copper circuit controls, which are then linked to the command station in the cockpit and a set of igniters on the bottom of the craft. The igniters generate the PSF-C's against the bottom hull of the aircraft in a wide, even distribution in order to generate lift. The controls consist of two freely-rotating crystal orbs containing yet two more AAAethergems, allowing the pilot to control the rotation and thrust of the propulsion unit.
The pilots station is covered in a two-part crystal shell, one part of which slides forward to allow the pilot to exit. Behind the pilot is a sizable crystal sphere in which the gunner sits. The sphere has sections cut out to allow the gunner to enter and exit via the pilots hatch when the turret is straightened. The rotation of the turret is controlled physically by the gunner, using his feet and hands to brace against the craft and forcibly turn the sphere. A single HAC-1 pokes out of the sphere, off-set to one side to make room for the gunner. We were unable to develop a 20 mm variant in time, but the HAC-1 works just fine. It is fixed in the bubble, again requiring the gunner to physically turn the entire sphere to aim. Loading is done by hand, and precise aiming is difficult. The crystal glass is made of layered crystal to help prevent lightning strikes from killing the occupants, and should be thick enough to prevent bolts from penetrating easily - if at all. Nickel cooling circuits zig-zag across the crystal canopies to keep the cabin a comfortable 21.1°C for both the pilot and gunner. There is no crystal armoring elsewhere, however, as the weight of the craft is already so high there are doubts it can lift itself at all. Regardless, a bomb bay in the center of the craft houses three Explosive Artillery Shells, droppable via a mechanical switch in the pilots station.
The first demonstration is overseen by the King, who is excited to see how his Expense Bonus is being spent. Ram and Waffles are attending, taking a brief vacation from their honeymoon to oversee the maiden voyage of the F43.
Piloting the F43 are a pair of highly-trained and trusted wizards who helped oversee the construction and development of the craft. They flash a thumbs-up to the watching crowd and prepare for lift-off. The launchpad is cleared and on command the wizards fire up the F43.
Immediately obvious is how heavy the craft is. At 2,400 AAAethergems, the F43 is the size of a small boat. The PSF-C's fire off rapidly, but the explosions can barely lift the craft more than a couple feet before the ground-effect ceases to provide additional thrust. The two wizards inside are shaken about as the craft vibrates at four shakes per second, and the entire thing begins to slip laterally. The pilot, in an attempt to correct the unexpected lateral drift, over-corrects the craft and sends it careening towards the crowd. He corrects his mistake at the last minute, this time over-correcting it in the other direction and sending it skipping into the ground. The edge of the craft digs into the dirt and the entire thing flips over.
Luckily, 2,399 of the AAAethergems manage to survive the sudden impact. The 2,400th AAAethergem sustains a bit more force than the others, however, and promptly detonates. This explosion ripples to the neighboring AAAethergem, which likewise explodes, which detonates its neighbors. In the span of a half-second the entire F43 explodes in a violent but spectacular chain-reaction of fireworks, raining bits of twisted metal and crystal on the horrified crowd. Thankfully, no one is hurt save for the two exploded wizards in the F43 and dozens and dozens of maimed bystanders and a stray dog who happened to be nearby during the event.
The King is, quite frankly, disappointed by the crafts..."lackluster" performance.
Until the serious control, stability, propulsion, and thrust-to-weight issues are solved, the F43 is unusable and little more than a frightening proof-of-concept.
Surprisingly, the F43 is merely Expensive.
Post by: andrea on July 15, 2017, 02:02:55 pm
Post by: Draignean on July 15, 2017, 02:13:09 pm
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Headlines... (click to show/hide)
So, basically, we have a hovercraft that explodes when used.
Still, Chief, you are correct. It is an excellent dog fighter. It managed to nail the one dog present in the audience.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 15, 2017, 02:19:27 pm
Revision: Better Aethergems
You know the drill. Streamline the processes involved to create a more refined less "prototype-y" version of the gem.
This time, we can use our accumulated knowledge to create a better connection to the probably-Aether, thus increasing the energy generation rate of all Magegems. Mathemagics can be used to isolate the responsible wavelengths for energy generation and we can tune the gem to that wavelength. Or something.
This should greatly increase the rate of fire of the Mundane. And the F43 should experience an extreme reduction in weight and size as it'll need much less Aethergems, which practically make up the entire craft.
Also making them less prone to catastrophic explosions would be nice but not a huge priority. If we do this make an apprentice write down the explode-y version just in case we want to use it.
Post by: andrea on July 15, 2017, 02:20:58 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 15, 2017, 02:22:56 pm
EDIT:
Quote
REVISION
1 - Better Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7511436#msg7511436): Chiefwaffles
Post by: andrea on July 15, 2017, 02:35:14 pm
Quote
REVISION
2 - Better Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7511436#msg7511436): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
Lets go for it. It will have good potential across the board anyway.
Post by: RAM on July 15, 2017, 03:50:31 pm
Gemerators
We remove the magic storage from an Aethergem and instead attach it to a magic-transference circuit lnked to a magical consumer, typically a device and some magems for storage. We then attune the "suction" effect to be more focused, extracting more from a smaller region of aether, tapping into a more fundamental source that we have yet to identify. This has, in controlled testing, resulted in more power being extracted from a smaller "hole" and thus producing less "exposure" and resulting in less "interference" from nearby gemerators. By reducing the impact of the magic accumulation effect we hope to increase the effectiveness of large generation arrays and reduce the volatility of the devices by lessening the size of the "hole" that closes when the device is violently disabled. Additionally, by separating them from their magic storage, we hope to further reduce the ability of such events to "chain-react" into the power storage and thus further reduce explosions, hopefully to the point that a single device can explode without detonating its neighbours. Furthermore, the absence of integrated storage greatly reduces their size, thus, with large-scale generation projects(due to the relatively low needs of actual storage in the presence of a sustained source), such as vehicles, their volume efficiency is roughly doubled, with the exception of the required volume of magems, which is usually miniscule by comparison when involved in large projects. Finally, by not needing a magem in every unit, we hope to reduce costs.
Naturally these would be integrated(along with small compliments of magems) into our current designs in place of large (aether/ma)gem arrays. Which should be rather easy as it is just replacing one big stack of gems and circuits with another. The "power comes out here" element of the circuit should be unchanged...
invisible crystals
We refine our transparent crystals so that they are completely invisible, by mathemagically isolating the magical signature for "light" that we have refined so well with our flare spells and simply removing all traces of it from the mathemagical equations we are using to generate our crystals. While this will aid immensely in scope covers(the internal lenses would need to be old-fashioned merely-transparent crystals to provide magnification, unless we use magic to magnify) and vision ports(but also handy for using flares from within a vehicle to full effectiveness with no fear of glare rebounding upon the user), it is, perhaps, most convenient for demonstrating to The Saint(may she never rain death upon us). When our mages are seen clearly demonstrating the material by laying atop it, demonstrating its smooth surface by presenting a painted object, then cleaning off its surfaces and polishing them to complete imperceptibility(while behind a curtain, no need to sully their eyes with common cleaning behaviour.) and for a bit of novelty presenting a plant potted in it and for a bit of showmanship we can grow the plant while nobody is in its vicinity and The Saint(May we be spared from her wrath) is engaged in conversation. The view of a plant's roots as it grows should be fascinating. It would just be too bad if there were some communication errors and the precise nature of our achievements were not adequately communicated...
Of secondary importance is applying the reverse of this. Imbuing the transparent crystal with the pure essence of light, bereft of context. This should cause it to imbue a specific measure of light upon whatever vision passes through it, resulting in the appearance of a bright day regardless of actual lighting conditions.
Ideally this would be included into all current uses of transparent crystals that are not reliant upon optical deformation. It will serve to obscure the borders of our own equipment and remove the current obscuring effects that exist from looking through curved glass, such as is exhibited by protectors.
This latter one would really help with our appeal to The Saint(May her fury fall upon our enemies alone.) and also help with our optics, especially if it manages day-vision, which would hopefully not only provide clear-day vision at night, but also when looking at a flare, which would be merely "clear sunny day" and not "aaaargh my poor innocent eyes". Given that we now have not one but two spells that are basically "make things bright" and our crystal refinement is over 9000 and includes a transparent variant, I do not think that this is asking overly much...
Post by: helmacon on July 15, 2017, 04:47:44 pm
To cover our asses until that time, we need to use the revision to make penetration rounds to kill those sky skiffs. It's pretty obvious we are going to have to sink a design into this thing to get it to a useful state. We might be able to get it working with a revision, but it wouldn't be useful.
Edit: Scrap tech for the scrap tech God! Salt for the salt throne! - official war cry of Arstotzka.
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 15, 2017, 05:03:47 pm
Ah yes. One more for the half finished tech pile. Truly, this is a brilliant strategy. Once we have enough, we can start pumping out game changing designs every turn, and there will be nothing they can do to keep up!!
To cover our asses until that time, we need to use the revision to make penetration rounds to kill those sky skiffs. It's pretty obvious we are going to have to sink a design into this thing to get it to a useful state. We might be able to get it working with a revision, but it wouldn't be useful.
We just have to fix 7 different issues! I am sure one revision will be enough.
On the other hand, if we can drop an Interceptor onto an enemy ship its a great bomb!
At least it proves the theory of a group of aethergems working as a high explosive.
Post by: RAM on July 15, 2017, 05:54:49 pm
We design a crystalworks to produce weightite instead. Weightite being a material whose defining characteristic is "heavy". We would like to see a result of approximately ten times the weight of lead, or about 100 grams per cubic centimetre, but just being heavier than gold and cheap enough to use in ammunition would suffice. It is hoped that the great simplicity of the material will simplify the summoning process enough that it will be easy to modify the equipment(With which we have great experience modifying the crystalworks, but a non-crystalline material might be difficult) and much faster to produce weightite than crystal, although the energy demands of doing so are somewhat open to speculation...
Our initial trials are to be with bullets, possibly combined with inserts to reduce the diameter of our current cannons or using summoned crystal shells to increase the diameter of the bullets while reducing their average density.
This much heavier material should aid our cannons in overcoming inclement weather and penetrating armour.
Further refinement of its deployment techniques would greatly improve this effect, potentially making a summoning platform swift enough to summon ammunition directly into barrels(It has been sited by some of our design crew that crystal summon slowly), producing discarded sabot rounds based upon our old anchoring gem methods that would dismiss the bulk of the bullet after leaving the anchor's vicinity and leave only the heaviest portions of the bullet after absorbing the majority of a larger(and thus more influenced by wind resistance and armour) shell's force which would greatly enhance our range and penetration.
Or the cannons could be adapted to a heavier ordnance and just put that much more force into the bullets.
It also has the potential to be subjected to a crystal growing through it, to produce a material with much of the hardness of crystal and near as much weight as weightite. Producing extremely potent armour penetrators and armour for more elite or long-term uses where the expense of a more complex process would be worth it.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 15, 2017, 06:07:44 pm
Ah yes. One more for the half finished tech pile. Truly, this is a brilliant strategy. Once we have enough, we can start pumping out game changing designs every turn, and there will be nothing they can do to keep up!!
To cover our asses until that time, we need to use the revision to make penetration rounds to kill those sky skiffs. It's pretty obvious we are going to have to sink a design into this thing to get it to a useful state. We might be able to get it working with a revision, but it wouldn't be useful.
Edit: Scrap tech for the scrap tech God! Salt for the salt throne! - official war cry of Arstotzka.
A design only becomes half finished tech if we just drop it and never try to fix it and instead opt for one-use revisions to temporarily "patch" other problems.
Which is exactly what you want to do. Yet you're complaining about half-finished tech?
We just have to fix 7 different issues! I am sure one revision will be enough.
On the other hand, if we can drop an Interceptor onto an enemy ship its a great bomb!
At least it proves the theory of a group of aethergems working as a high explosive.
One issue.
Weight.
Guess how we fix this issue? Better Aethergems. Remember that the Better Magegems revision rolled a 4 (or worse) and for that 4, we got AA Magegems that could store the same amount of power as two old A Magegems. That's what, a 400% power capacity increase?
So if we just get a 100% increase in power generation for Aethergems, that halves the size and weight of the F43. Which means a much smaller target, that can actually fly, that's less volatile, and that we can armor its Aethergems more. (And that's disregarding hopeful Aethergem volatility improvements this revision.)
Oh it also means Aethergems will be more useful in the future and it means that the mistake which is the Mundane will fire much faster.
*sighs* I told you to focus on the technology and not the device. Now we don't have the one thing that the design actually needed in order to work. There really isn't any point in fixing this because we will still be fighting air supremacy and environmental control with an unstable prototype. At least with the force film it could have attempted to brute-force oppose their control, now we have to balance thrusts against constantly changing wind patterns... And we still need living magic to perform those sorts of rapid precise pressure shifts over the frame of a whole aircraft... We still need to solve this situation by denying the sky as a theatre, which should be pretty easy given our massive-huge-megacolossal-scale thermal-magic.
RAM. It got a 1.
If we had tried for a jetpack, we'd be in an even worse situation. We would have still gotten a 1. (And Evicted doesn't count modifiers resulting in a total value below 1 or above 6.) But we would have done less with that 1 due to the scale of the design.
And now we have the KPD which will make future efforts tremendously easier, and we have a F43 which can be fixed with a single revision.
EDIT: I'd also like to point out that this is our first ever aircraft and we're just one revision away from it being useful.
Post by: helmacon on July 15, 2017, 06:08:26 pm
Edit@ CW. Better aether gems might mean we could do all that, but it would take another action to actually do it.
So, basically, we have a hovercraft that explodes when used.Can sig?
Still, Chief, you are correct. It is an excellent dog fighter. It managed to nail the one dog present in the audience.
Post by: RAM on July 15, 2017, 06:53:21 pm
We do not have "the KPD". We have an orion drive. It is propelled by explosions. It is going to be unfathomably difficult to steer, assuming that the whole thing doesn't shake apart after an extended voyage. My whole argument was that the project might fail, nay, was quite likely to fail, the prospect of getting all of our design goals seemed like a stretch., Some designs are usable on a one, some aren't. I argued that we should prioritise what was important. As you say, that was "the KPD" which we did not get. We basically already had this form of propulsion if we wanted it, a half of a revision tops! If we had said, "do this drive! and then work on a craft for it..." then the one would have gotten us most of the drive and we could have done the same design again, or maybe even revised it into flying armour like everyone wanted. My question was "if it fails, how should it fail?" and my answer was "get the complicated propulsion thing going and worry about a vehicle as an afterthought.". A 1 is no excuse, we can still work with ones. Instead of a shiny new propulsion system that might, potentially, get us a viable aircraft at some point in the future, we have an outdated aircraft that will never amount to much no matter how much we work on it, short of burning a design on the one thing that it was supposed to produce. Now we are locked into a weird vehicle that has, umm, a rear-facing gun? Is powered by repeating explosions(in tubes?), four per second no less which is, well, it is not going to be comfortable, or stable to fire from, or good at navigating turbulence, or, well...*sighs* I told you to focus on the technology and not the device. Now we don't have the one thing that the design actually needed in order to work. There really isn't any point in fixing this because we will still be fighting air supremacy and environmental control with an unstable prototype. At least with the force film it could have attempted to brute-force oppose their control, now we have to balance thrusts against constantly changing wind patterns... And we still need living magic to perform those sorts of rapid precise pressure shifts over the frame of a whole aircraft... We still need to solve this situation by denying the sky as a theatre, which should be pretty easy given our massive-huge-megacolossal-scale thermal-magic.
RAM. It got a 1.
If we had tried for a jetpack, we'd be in an even worse situation. We would have still gotten a 1. (And Evicted doesn't count modifiers resulting in a total value below 1 or above 6.) But we would have done less with that 1 due to the scale of the design.
And now we have the KPD which will make future efforts tremendously easier, and we have a F43 which can be fixed with a single revision.
Just... Just... Just try planning for failure a little... 1 and 2 are a third of the rolls. They happen. They happen a lot. Three and four and not bad, they are average. Five and six are only a third of our outcomes, they are not something that you base your designs on. Always assume that you will get 3, 3, 3, and try to get something out of 1, 1, 1...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 15, 2017, 06:58:22 pm
Better Aethergems is something that'll take effect automatically, like how Better Magegems took effect instantly with Blastshells and the AS-R1. And yes retrofitting better aethergems does involve decreasing the total # of gems in the F43, but we also did that with the AS-R1. Originally it took 2 A Magegems for one firing and after we got Better Magegems it got autofitted to only use 1 AA gem.
Tech automatically retrofits if there isn't some notable change to how that tech would be implemented. Like better steam engines, Magegems, and more. Like if it's just a straight-up upgrade to an existing component.
The Internal Detonation Engine is an exception to this, but it's more-so of a new engine heavily based on the steam engine rather than an upgrade to the steam engine. Because after all, it isn't a steam engine.
We do not have "the KPD". We have an orion drive. It is propelled by explosions.So we got the KPD then. A beta version, if you will. It can be improved, but it's still a KPD.
Just... Just... Just try planning for failure a little... 1 and 2 are a third of the rolls. They happen. They happen a lot. Three and four and not bad, they are average. Five and six are only a third of our outcomes, they are not something that you base your designs on. Always assume that you will get 3, 3, 3, and try to get something out of 1, 1, 1...And I did.
Realize that we now have access to extreme amounts of aeronautic possibilities not accessible beforehand, and we now have an engine, albeit rough, for doing that.
Realize that all we need to fix the F43 is one revision which will also help us in other areas.
Post by: Draignean on July 15, 2017, 07:02:02 pm
So, basically, we have a hovercraft that explodes when used.Can sig?
Still, Chief, you are correct. It is an excellent dog fighter. It managed to nail the one dog present in the audience.
Go right ahead.
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 15, 2017, 07:15:52 pm
Post by: Andres on July 15, 2017, 07:19:25 pm
Quote
ORDERS
1 - Do not reveal the F43 in the next battle report: Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: helmacon on July 15, 2017, 07:23:18 pm
Quote
Revisions:
1 - Penetrator rounds (whenever someone posts an appropriate revision for them): Helmacon
Orders:
2 - Do not reveal the F43 in the next battle report: Andres, Helmacon
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 15, 2017, 07:25:00 pm
I'm a bigger fan of just going with better Aethergems across the park just to make them more viable for future pursuits and because their power capacity is pretty important. But it's definitely a viable option.
Revision: Aethergem Array
We create a large number of "AAAA Aethergems" - notably smaller than even AAA Aethergems with almost zero power capacity but still keeping the same power generation rate. Then we bind a number of these "minigems" together with a single AAA Magegem with crystal wiring.
The effect is a device the size of an AAA Aethergem with a slightly higher power capacity (the sum of the AAAA gems' capacities adds a small but notable capacity to the AAA Magegem0 but a much greater generation rate. The top priority in this revision is ensuring that the Aethergem Array can be easily, without a dedicated revision, be fitted into the F43 to greatly decrease its size and weight.
@Andres:
We should probably wait until we see the revision to decide that. There's a very real chance that with better AGems, the F43 may be really viable.
But I definitely see your point regardless.
@Helmacon: You ignored Andrea and my votes for Better Aethergems.
Post by: Andres on July 15, 2017, 07:27:48 pm
Quote
Revisions:
1 - Penetrator rounds (whenever someone posts an appropriate revision for them): Helmacon
1 - Aethergem Array (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7511716#msg7511716): Andres
Orders:
2 - Do not reveal the F43 in the next battle report: Andres, Helmacon
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 15, 2017, 07:31:02 pm
Quote
Revisions:Fixed the votes and duplivoting for AGem array. If there happens to be a tie between the two AGem proposals I'll remove one of my votes.
2 - Better Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7511436#msg7511436): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
1 - Penetrator rounds (whenever someone posts an appropriate revision for them): Helmacon
2 - Aethergem Array (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7511716#msg7511716): Andres, Chiefwaffles
Orders:
2 - Do not reveal the F43 in the next battle report: Andres, Helmacon
Post by: RAM on July 15, 2017, 07:39:53 pm
And is there some reason that the weightite works proposal does not offer penetrating rounds. Yes, penetrating rounds is only happening on a decent roll, but the groundwork is there for some really amazing penetrating rounds on a future revision if the roll is bad.
I say again that crystals have an inherently low density. There is only so much structure that you can fit into an extremely dense space. Crystals are good like the patterns on a cardboard box are good, lots of strength for minimal materials and weight. This is great if you are building a house, terrible if you are building a bullet. Also, the only way to potentially get dense crystals is more compact structures. More compact almost certainly means more complex, which will probably make summoning them more difficult. A new material really is the only plausible way to get the performance necessary to be, well, better than lead...
Query? How is the following true?
size of (AAA gem + many AAAA gems) = size of (AAA gem)
There is something there that I am really not understanding.
Post by: RAM on July 15, 2017, 07:46:42 pm
Quote
Revisions:
2 - Better Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7511436#msg7511436): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
1 Gemerators (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7511528#msg7511528): RAM
1 invisible crystals (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7511528#msg7511528): RAM
1 - Penetrator rounds (whenever someone posts an appropriate revision for them): Helmacon
lots Weightite Works (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7511663#msg7511663): RAM, RAM, RAM, RAM, eggs, and RAM.
2 - Aethergem Array (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7511716#msg7511716): Andres, Chiefwaffles
Orders:
2 - Do not reveal the F43 in the next battle report: Andres, Helmacon
Post by: helmacon on July 15, 2017, 07:52:46 pm
you said better aether gems would make it smaller (true) less volatile (false) and allow for armor (false). It would make it smaller. Everything else would require separate actions. Making it smaller dosent actualy do anything. It still can't fly more than a few meters. The aether gem exploded when it bumped the ground. The thing caused a chain reaction. Even if you did get a slight reduction in explosiveness, a ballista bolt (or any intentional weapon) would definitely still set it off.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 15, 2017, 07:59:45 pm
1.) We can't remove the storage capacity effectively because the Aethergems act just as I was planning - as capacitors. The KPD works by cycling through Aethergem banks. As one section of Aethergem charges, it uses up the charge of another section at once to generate the blasts needed, then repeats until finished. If we remove the storage capacity, then this won't work.
2.) Because an Aethergem is bigger than a Magegem. Though I should had used the word "roughly" there. The AAA Magegem should be smaller than an AAA Aethergem as it doesn't need the components the Aethergem uses to generate power.
Helmacon:
Smaller and lighter. Less Aethergems means less weight. The entire craft is practically made out of Aethergems. Remember that a new AA Magegem is worth 2 old A Magegems.
That's a huge improvement. And on a 4.
So if we get even double the effectiveness in our Aethergems then that's practically cutting the weight and size of the F43 in half.
That's a huge reduction in weight. Huge. More than enough to easily allow flying.
And hopefully we can include more armor as a result of the decreased weight, though I am doubtful. However, we should be able to keep the remaining Aethergems in more secure locations.
And
Quote
Even if you did get a slight reduction in explosiveness, a ballista bolt (or any intentional weapon) would definitely still set it off.[citation needed]
(This is completely dependent on the roll and any reduction in volatility would work well.)
And see what I already said in response to you answering your exact question regarding retrofitting. I am basing this off of precedence.
When we upgraded Magegems, we got automatic retrofitting in both the AS-R1 and the Blastshells.
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 15, 2017, 08:02:36 pm
Oh hey or-
Explodo-falcons
A small harness attached to a normal falcon containing a fireball "wand" and a few aethergems. The falcons are trained to dive bomb enemy aircraft and then move a switch with their leg which activates the fireball and sets off the aethergems. The result is an explosion as powerful as a cannon ball blast easily targeted directly on the enemy by suicidal falcons.
Post by: Kadzar on July 15, 2017, 08:26:29 pm
Quote
Revisions:
3 - Better Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7511436#msg7511436): Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Kadzar
1 Gemerators (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7511528#msg7511528): RAM
1 invisible crystals (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7511528#msg7511528): RAM
1 - Penetrator rounds (whenever someone posts an appropriate revision for them): Helmacon
lots Weightite Works (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7511663#msg7511663): RAM, RAM, RAM, RAM, eggs, and RAM.
2 - Aethergem Array (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7511716#msg7511716): Andres, Chiefwaffles
Orders:
3 - Do not reveal the F43 in the next battle report: Andres, Helmacon, Kadzar
Post by: helmacon on July 15, 2017, 08:47:17 pm
Penetrators (or weightite) will at least help us kill thier stuff from last turn. Other than that, we just hope they rolled 1's as well.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 15, 2017, 09:20:25 pm
Also we have two expense credits. The revision isn't the only thing we can do this turn.
Post by: RAM on July 15, 2017, 09:22:10 pm
Calling Aethergems capacitors is misguided. We have capacitors. They are called mage gems. They do just fine in that role. Capacitors do not produce energy, they just store it. We also have generators, the aethergems, which are doing rather poorly because they are trying, badly, to replace our capacitors while being our only generators. As is plainly obvious, the only aethergems that are worth anything are the smallest one, because we can use magems and AAAthgems better for any task that would use AAthgems. When using Aethergems, the only thing that we care about is generation ability, because storage capacity can always be made up with magems. In modern devices, you have generators and capacitors, and the two are separate. You can have a big generator and a little capacitor bank or a little capacitor bank and a large generator bank. It depends upon whether you want a frequent use(powerful generator) or occasional use(weak generator) and whether you want strenuous applications(large capacity) or weak applications(small capacity). Unless we just stumble blindly into the perfect ratio for a given application, an aethergem is going to have a very poor capacitor to generator ratio. That is just the only outcome of having your ratios fixed like that. We currently have capacitors and generator/capacitor hybrids that really don't come out working as either particularly well. I get that you really want your all-in-one does-everything universal-power-unit but that is, quite simply, a bad way of doing things. Adding some magems and switching the bulk of it over to gemerators would be as simple as any of the other proposals and produce a purely superior outcome. You are basically trying to make my gemerators except instead of explaining how this can actually make a better system and trying to improve the generation facilities in the process, you are just saying that, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary, if you just shrink the capacity down to the point that it ceases to be credible, the aethergems suddenly become capable of being absolutely tiny with exactly the same power output, as though, perhaps, as I have been saying all along(although we disagree as to whether the zero capacity aethergems would really be that small), binding them to a capacitor is holding them back from their full potential, but then you go and ruin it by, surprisingly enough, binding it to a capacitor.
Separating generators from capacitors is the only sensible way forward if we pursue this technology. The silly way forward is to have some sort of nebulous adjustable capacitor to generator ratio device that does whatever is asked of it because magic. The stupid way forward is to perpetually insist that we must have fixed ratios of capacitors stuck onto all of our generators. We just get a separate capcitor bank which we have had for ages, plug it into the new generator bank that can be attuned to precisely the generation potential that we require for the given role, and not try to turn them into the same thing is a tiny range of fixed models that don;t really work exactly right for anything ever.
So, in short, we replace the storage facility with magems, which I already specified in my proposal. And because my system is objectively superior, we only need two capacitor banks instead of four, unless there is a limit to how quickly they can charge that I have missed/forgotten? So just be separating them sensibly we cut out half of our magems, presumably reducing the volume by about a quarter.
I also suggest that we will not, in fact, get AAAthgem->atharray upgrades automatically. I cite that we did not get magem->aethergem upgrades on account of the dimensions changing, and suggest that the array is, at the very least, going to have a different shape to it, even if it impossibly retains the same size.
Gemerators: Separate the generator from the capacitor and increase the generation ability, then take the obvious and seemingly simple steps to update those applications that seem to be easy to update.
Aethergem Array: separate the generator from the capacitor then put a whole lot of generators onto one capacitor. Then use these to replace the old model because they are exactly the same size with vastly improved performance even though all we did was change what they were plugged into.
Important notes that were omitted:
: That the "generating" component of the aethergem is actually getting smaller as the capacitor/battery component gets smaller even though they all generate at exactly the same rate(citation?) and that we can continue to benefit from what is, obviously, a purely beneficial effect of reducing until it is no longer a capacitor at all, down to effectively zero capacity even though we have, thus far, only managed to go as for as the AAA version which is presumably, a long long away away from practically nothing at all.
: That all of the effort will be applied to maintaining compatibility with the existing array. If sacrifices have to be made, then efficiency can bite the bullet and all sacrifices must be made for 1st: must fit into the old physical slot because we don't want to burn another revision on this; 2nd: must maintain enough capacity for the aeroplane's engines to fly; 3rd, must have greater generation because without that there is no point.
The array is objectively inferior. It makes no stated effort to improve performance, it just assumes that the reader will get the point and understand that the process of a generator plugged into a smaller battery generates at the same rate will continue endlessly. AND that the generator components are actually different, at all, across the different sizes, and it is not just the capacitor components which are larger or smaller. It is entirely possible that the effect which is relied upon doesn't actually exist. But that doesn't matter because it is not specified, it just has an inspired piece of stage magician work of sawing an aethergem in half and gluing a dozen of one half back onto one of the other half and the result is exactly the same size as the original.
Ugh, the fundamental problem is that the aethergem makes no effort to explain how it works, or even that it does work, and assumes that it will be useful even though the prior aethergem which was largely the same level of disaster was not useful because surprisingly enough when you add and remove stuff you get a different size and shape.
The gemerator and the array work in exactly the same way. They both reduce the storage capacity to nothing. The difference is that the gemerator makes some attempt to improve performance and explains how to adapt to the new technology while the array insists on bulking everything back together in the latest episode of "we are not allowed to have independent generators for some reason".
If the array stopped at just "make an array of these the same size as an aethergem but 100% generator. Then the two designs would be very nearly identical, aside from the array not actually explaining the crucial part of why it could possibly work and making it apparent that the foundation of the theory is a bit wonky at best.
It is the vultures all over again. I put up a decent design, then it is overshadowed by an objectively inferior knockoff. I admit that most of the time designs have their own flavour, "objectively superior" is not generally applicable, but falcons were more ambition and less effective than vultures, and the aethergem array is less founded and provides inferior performance when compared to the gemerator, but both birds were birds and both generators are generators, just one is better than the other, and was proposed first, and lost the vote, because the real magic isn't in the wands... I have no objection to being outdone in the same field by something that looks to have been based upon my idea, it is just irritating when it is straight-up worse and still gets more votes.
But yes, what we really need is pretty much anything other than an aeroplane that can't hope to fight against their air power. It was once said that we shouldn't do wind magic when they are already better at it than us. Clearly that was false, but doing air-forces when they completely control not just the airspace, but the whole world up there, is not terribly wise.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 15, 2017, 09:34:26 pm
The power capacity component of Aethergems is hardly a limiting factor, really. Not everything is a zero-sum game. It's better to get better Aethergems also able to store power rather than sacrificing capacity for power storage but then cutting down the number of Aethergems used for Magegems.
Ultimately, it'll come out to the same thing. Except using dedicated generators is an unnecessary complication only thought necessary due to the unnecessary connection to real-world technology.
We don't need a dedicated generator and a dedicated battery system. We have Aethergems. We don't need to restrict ourselves to real-world rules for no reason other than the fact that the rules may be a little more familiar.
Let's make something that isn't just a mindless copy of real-world tech except replacing the word "electricity" with "magic". Let's make something that takes advantage of Wands Race's rules and our knowledge, not the rules of the real-world which was abandoned as soon as Wands Race started.
Quote
And because my system is objectively superior,Oh, this argumentation tactic.
No, RAM, using the word "objectively" when describing your opinion doesn't suddenly make your opinion objective. You'd have to actually prove it first.
Which you have not.
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 15, 2017, 09:43:12 pm
Post by: helmacon on July 15, 2017, 10:00:17 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 15, 2017, 10:05:30 pm
1.) The F43 cannot fly because of weight. That's it. This weight comes from its extreme amount of Aethergems. Increasing Aethergem charge rate will fix it.
2.) We have two Expense Credits. We can do a lot with two expense credits. Things that'll help us during this combat phase.
For example, Evicted said that if we use an Expense credit on Magegems or Aethergems, we'll even get a new VE gem that would be NE without the credit. Or we could use it on the Academy again. (Though we'd have to think of a different expense-related bonus for the Academy). Or anything else. Like the AS-R1.
3.) Mundane is quite useless for sure, but better Aethergems will make a Mundane go from "extremely useless piece of junk" to "marginally useful artillery."
Though I do wonder if we'd get a capacity bonus on Aethergems if we used the credit on Magegems. I'm assuming it would since the Aethergem is basically just extra stuff put ontop of a Magegem of equivalent expense. So having cheaper Magegems would mean we can use the better version in Aethergems.
And if this is true, then using an Expense credit on Magegems means the Mundane goes to Expensive, which would actually make its use of some note.
Post by: helmacon on July 15, 2017, 10:10:42 pm
If not, we ought to use one to open a new branch of the university and the other on the mage gems. (would that make our cheap mage gems free?)
Also, even if the F43 could fly, it's still not useful.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 15, 2017, 10:27:14 pm
I asked Evicted about Magegems and he'd said that we'd basically get a new tier of VE Magegems better than the A Magegems. And as one would expect, the AA and A Magegems go down in price to Cheap and Expensive respectively.
And the F43 is still an aircraft. It can go above enemy airships and aircraft and shoot them down with its turret. The AS-HAC-1 can easily snipe the unprotected crew on Moskurger skiffs+carpets+airships and at close range even penetrate the armor. The bombs will be great against the slow-moving airships and enemy positions.
And it's just Expensive.
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 15, 2017, 10:30:36 pm
A rather simple revision of the F43 which removes all the aethergems and cannons in exchange for a few mage gems attached around the central propulsion mechanism. The overall design is smaller and much lighter, made of of crystal and seats two wizards who power the thing and can also fire rifles, bows or spells out of windows protected by sliding hatches.
Post by: RAM on July 15, 2017, 10:35:57 pm
If we are not bound by the limits of technology, why are we trying to build a rocket-plane when we ought to be making the sky fall?
Saying that it is only due to familiarity shows either extreme lack of understanding or outright falsehood. I made extensive descriptions, overextensive descriptions, of why, specifically, it is better to have generators and capacitors separated. I even proposed the magical alternative, that of a device that just works. The array is neither of these things. It is just bad. If you want a universal power supply then just call it a universal power supply, power it with living magic, and have a custom-built ethereal mage controlling every one of our devices with exactly the magical potency to get it to run. Aethergems are horribly inefficient not because it would be so in a familiar setting, but because they are described as functioning that way. The ratio of generation to storage is fixed, that is why real-world devices would be horribly inefficient if they worked that way, that is why magical devices are horribly inefficient if they do work that way. You wend up with either way too much generation or way too much storage and horrible horrible inefficiency which results in aircraft that are too fat to leave the ground. If I were fixed to the familiar then I would say that batteries and capacitors should be different things and pushing for increases in our magical transfer efficiency by using a new capacitor device and increases in our storage by using a new battery device. I am perfectly happy to have the universal battery/capacitor device because it makes sense and is useful even though it would be nearly impossible in real life. I oppose the universal generator/storage device because it is horrifically inefficient no matter how you slice it. If you want something better than you are going to have to veer away from your mundane familiar physical power packs and go into something truly magical.
Generator+storage is not complex. It is literally just two things, with some cabling. As opposed to one thing and some cabling. Instead of saying "what precise combination of aethergems and magems will get us the precise ratio of generation to storage that we need for this appliance" we can just say "this gun needs 30 units of magic in order to fire, put three AA magems behind each gun. The ship needs to fire 100 times per minute to keep their carpet formations at bay, So we'll be needing a banks of gemerators totalling 300 units.". Splitting them up is much simpler because it splits up the considerations. You end up with two extremely simple equations instead of one complicated one.
I have proven "objectively superior". You want convenience that would only exist at the lowest level and could easily be obviated at the cost of complexity in every level of operation. Gemerators are simpler, more effective, more stable, more thoroughly explained, more efficient, cheaper, not relying upon rather dubious interpretations of established lore that are not even mentioned in the design draft, and more convenient. The only reason I can see that you would have suggested the array is that you can't give up the idea of the universal power pod which, as I have pointed out, is a mistake.
The only scenario in which the universal power pod would seem to be an advantage is in small, personal devices. A rifle could have an integrated battery and switch the source into it or into a different device easily. or we could have a charging device, slip the battery out of the charger and into the gun for rapid recharging. You can't afford to have enough power to fire the gun 100 times per minute integrated into the gun, nor enough power to fire 100 times without weight the thing down horribly. But you can have a separate charging station and it is easier to only swap the storage than to swap the source and storage both when you are not even using the storage. If you really want a gun that fires constantly then you only need tiny storage ability compared to the massive magical source that will be required to keep it going perpetually. One gun wants to fire 20 times on a single replacement in the span of ten seconds, pure storage is better, the other only needs enough storage for a single shot, just one shot! but it needs to recharge that shot in a sixth of a second, Aethergems are monstrously horrifically disastrous for that job, for both jobs. You want a "you have two U.P.P.s so you can have two of your six devices functioning at once" which would be fine if we were going out camping, but the merciless lack of efficiency is simply inexcusable for a military endeavour where we are competing constantly. If we want a clip or magazine then we want the best storage to get the most power through the system from the smallest package. If we want to run a heater then all we need is a generator. Aethergems are objectively inferior. Find any scenario in which they perform better...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 15, 2017, 10:41:24 pm
Both nations decide to seize the Traders assets this year. His sudden appearance and reluctance to speak is suspicious enough, as well as the familiar boat from the trader from years past. Neither side has any trouble capturing him and his crew, and they've been put in both sides respective dungeons. Interrogation will prove what his intentions were soon enough. His ship was, as he said, full up enough with various treasures to give both sides an Expense Credit this year.
...
In accordance with Arstotzkans Scholarship, all non-drafted apprentices who serve for at least two years after being educated at Arstotzkas Academy for Adequate Apprenticeship are free to retire from active duty. Though the number of apprentices who either survive that long or choose to retire rather than attain a Wizard-level ranking is quite small, enough have trickled back into society over the past few years to be noticeable. Most are crippled in some way, but those who still have hands prove to be quite capable farmers with Dogwood Wands. It took quite a while to see the return on investment, but the increase in crop harvest is enough to earn Arstotzka an additional Expense Credit this year.
And saying "objectively" more does not change anything, RAM.
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 15, 2017, 10:44:20 pm
Post by: RAM on July 15, 2017, 11:27:53 pm
Nope. We have two expense credits in addition to the expense roll bonus.Oh, thankyou, my mistake, I missed one of them.
And saying "objectively" more does not change anything, RAM.And making unjustified statement doesn't either. It is the reams of reasons that makes my statement accurate.
Why are we making aircraft at all when we can make dragons?For the same reason that we trained hawks when we could have summoned murderous death vultures.
Cast-off Crystal Cannon-bullets
C.C.C.s review an old contrivance. The anchored summons. We revise the anchoring process to achieve two things:
Firstly, to allow the anchor to operate at a range. A few metres is plenty.
Second, to permit many small objects to be bound to the one gem. But this is just a matter of convenience, and can be skipped if difficulties arise.
The execution is simple. A thin iron bullet is fashioned in the shape of merely the core of a normal bullet, and then a crystal is summoned around it and anchored to a gem for long-term storage and transport. The bullet, of standard dimensions, is loaded and fired as normal, and the crystal exterior vanishes as it leave proximity of its anchoring gem and the bond sustaining it is broken.
The results are also quite simple. The light crystal seals the chamber and barrel, allowing the bullet to absorb the full force of the blast, and then vanishes, taking the minority of the total force imparted to the bullet with it. The much smaller, longer iron bullet is moving faster, due to the relatively low weight of the total shell compared to standard bullets, and its long draft makes it less prone to being slowed by its passage through the air. It is, however, just as forceful as a larger bullet when compared to the size of the hole it has to make in order to pass through something. The end result is a projectile that has less total power than conventional, but is faster and more concentrated, resulting in better penetration and range.
Post by: helmacon on July 15, 2017, 11:36:39 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 16, 2017, 12:21:53 am
Quote from: Discord
Chiefwaffles - Today at 4:08 PM
@evictedSaint A question for when you're on - If we upgrade Aethergems, the F43 will receive the benefits immediately like how the Blastshells did with better magegems, right?
...
evictedSaint - Today at 10:13 PM
@Chiefwaffles yes, upgraded aethergems affect existing weapons already using them, within reason.
Although I feel the need to point out that the limiting factor is recharge rate, not expense
evictedSaint - Today at 10:15 PM
Replacing the AAAethergems on the F43 with Aethergems still means tou need 2400 to fire 4 times a second
Just mirroring this from discord.
And if anyone doesn't understand the last part, evicted's saying that as the limiting factor is the charge rate, having cheaper Aethergems doesn't help as all Aethergem sizes share the same charge rate.
Which means that using an Expense Credit on Aethergems probably wouldn't help the F43. Though I am wondering if we get smaller AAA Aethergems if we do use the E-Credit on them meaning we can replace the AAAethergems on the F43 with smaller and lighter ones with the same charge rate+capacity.
It's understandably unlikely, but it's a possibility.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 16, 2017, 10:50:10 am
I mean, it won't be indefinite flight, but it doesn't need to be, and that method means we can actually improve the F43 with an Expense Credit on Magegems.
Post by: evictedSaint on July 16, 2017, 01:26:07 pm
Post by: RAM on July 16, 2017, 03:34:08 pm
Quote
Revisions:
3 - Better Aethergems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7511436#msg7511436): Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Kadzar
1 Gemerators (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7511528#msg7511528): RAM
1 invisible crystals (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7511528#msg7511528): RAM
1 - Penetrator rounds (whenever someone posts an appropriate revision for them): Helmacon
lots Weightite Works (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7511663#msg7511663): RAM, RAM, RAM, RAM, eggs, and RAM.
2 - Aethergem Array (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7511716#msg7511716): Andres, Chiefwaffles
2 - C.C.C. shells (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7511867#msg7511867): RAM, Helmacon
Orders:
3 - Do not reveal the F43 in the next battle report: Andres, Helmacon, Kadzar
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 16, 2017, 04:22:36 pm
Immediate benefits:
- Cheap +R/E Blastshells!! (Really useful because of their artillery counter)
- Cheap +2R or +2E Blastshells?
- Expensive +2R/1E or +2E/1R Blastshells??
- Cheap AS-R1? (Maybe - AS-R1 should have been covered by Crystalworks Mk. 2 and if it was, then having Cheap ammo means no Mundane bottlenecks)
- Reducing expense of Aethergems? Since they use Magegems and the only difference between AGem sizes is their MGem size. So we should get cheaper AGems. Hopefully.
- More potential for future tech.
Dunno about the second one. We should probably save it.
Post by: evictedSaint on July 16, 2017, 04:36:36 pm
We fine-tune the Aethergem setup to summon magical energy from the aether (we think) by refining the frequencies or something.
Aethergems (capacitance equal to 10 AAAethergems) recharge fully every 3 minutes.
AAethergems (capacitance equal to 5 AAAethergems) recharge fully every 2 minutes.
AAAethergems (capacitance equal to 1 AAAethergem) recharge fully every 30 seconds.
This means that Aethergems now recharge slightly faster than the lower-quality gems.
Additionally, we discover we can affix two charging modules to a single gem for an increased price cost of +1 Expense (and a very minor weight increase) to double the charge speed, though this seems to cause some problems with the longevity of the gem. Gems that are double-charged seem to "wear down" over multiple charging/discharging cycles.
For free, we upgrade the AAAethergems in the F43 to this newer variant and cut the required gems down to 1,200. This decreases the weight of the craft, but it still suffers from stability, control, and vibration issues and is still unusable at the moment.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 16, 2017, 04:50:07 pm
Use Expense Credit 1 on Magegems
Here's what we intend for it to do. This list of course isn't definite, and it's of course ultimately up to evicted.
- Make Blastshell+R/E Cheap.
- Double-charge +R and +E Blastshells to double the effects of each while remaining cheap (We would be able to afford better Magegems and thus have more power for more Blastballs).
- Increase power of +R/E Blastshells for the HA1. (Either doing a +1.5R/+1.5 E or +2R/1E and +1R/+2E or something like that. We would be able to afford better Magegems = more space for Blastballs)
- Cheap AS-R1s (AS-R1 should be Cheap because of Crystalworks, but it was never brought up. Therefore having Cheap AA gems should allow for universally Cheap AS-R1s)
- Increase capacity of Aethergems (So we can use better Magegems when making Aethergems for the same price. So an A Magegem can be used to make an AAethergem instead of AA Magegem/AA Aethergem, etc.).
- (EDIT) Make the Mundane not useless? If the above point goes through, then the Mundane should be able to use AAethergems instead of Aethergems to power its SPF-C, and should thus become Expensive down from Very Expensive.
Quote
Expense Credit 1
1 - Magegems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7512446#msg7512446): Chiefwaffles
Expense Credit 2
1 - Save the credit: Chiefwaffles
Orders
4 - Do not reveal the F43 in the next battle report: Andres, Helmacon, Kadzar, Chiefwaffles
EDIT: I've made a design for a potential F44. The idea is to basically focus on making a better KPD (and also 20mm turret), so it's much more energy efficient and uses the cushion-like "pushing" instead of literally propelling via explosions.
Should actually be easy, and I mean it this time. It's basically just "try again on the F43", which should get a decent amount of bonus modifiers.
Lemme know if anyone has ideas for a different type of aircraft, 'cause I'd love to type it out.
Future(ish) Design: ASAF-F44
The KPD is a good start, but is lacking. That is why the main focus in this design is the KPD Mk. 2, an incremental improvement of its predecessor. The rest of the F44 is an incremental but serious improvement to the F43. The F43 was a prototype - a proof of concept. The F44 is the real deal.
Spoiler: Fluff (click to show/hide)
Generally speaking, the F44 is intended to be similar to the F43 in aspects not mentioned below.
KPD Mark 2 - "Fix" the KPD to be like how it was envisioned - "pushing" the craft via direct and precise applications of kinetic energy, allowing UFO-like movement of equal (+fast) speed in any direction. Intended side-effect is that this is much more energy efficient because of the precise usage of energy instead of wasting it in unfocused explosions like the F43.
Ball Turret/20mm Upgrade - Upgrade the ball turret to have mechanical controls from the inside and to house a 20mm gun based off of the AS-HAC-1 for armor piercing while retaining high muzzle velocity.
Linkgems - Very low priority feature. We just take the "magic -> sound" aspect of anti-magic gems and apply it to an AAA Magegem. Then we connect the Magegem to another AAA Magegem via crystal wire, where the sound-turned-magic turns back into sound. The result is basically just a fancy can telephone, allowing people on the ends of either linked Linkgem to talk to each other.
Reactor - We have a low-enough number of Aethergems that we can just put them in an armored chamber called the Reactor. Armor is a bit more than the Cockpit/Ball turret, able to tank numerous Ballistae bolts without signs of damage. But as long as armor is enough so they can't easily trigger a detonation by attacking the reactor, it's fine. Reactor should roughly be size of cockpit (which can hold the pilot + controls + essential items).
Structure - Very roughly like an arrowhead. Cockpit at front connected to the Reactor connected to the Ball Turret.
TL;DR: A refined version of the F44, with lower magic consumption, a much better KPD, and some miscellaneous mild neat features.
Post by: andrea on July 16, 2017, 05:26:07 pm
Quote
Expense Credit 1
2 - Magegems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7512446#msg7512446): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
Expense Credit 2
2 - Save the credit: Chiefwaffles, Andrea
Orders
4 - Do not reveal the F43 in the next battle report: Andres, Helmacon, Kadzar, Chiefwaffles
Post by: RAM on July 16, 2017, 05:29:03 pm
Use Expense Credit 1 on Magegems1 and 2 seem useful.
Here's what we intend for it to do. This list of course isn't definite, and it's of course ultimately up to evicted.
- Make Blastshell+R/E Cheap.
- Double-charge +R and +E Blastshells to double the effects of each while remaining cheap? (Next tier of Magegems can have enough power for 2x [or more?] Blastballs instead of 1).
- Cheap AS-R1s? (AS-R1 should be Cheap because of Crystalworks, but it was never brought up. If this is true, then having Cheap AA gems should allow for universally Cheap AS-R1s).
- Increase capacity of Aethergems? (So we can use better Magegems when making Aethegems for the same price. So an A Magegem can be used to make an AAethergem instead of AA Magegem/AA Aethergem, etc.).
3 seems pointless, the small-arms really don't seem to matter enough for this to change anything.
4: No. The volume and charging ability are the main issues. This would produce a worse product by increasing the volume without increasing the generation ability.
Also, this is all speculation that there are no other factors included in the cost. Not that I have any reason to believe that such factors exist, but it would be best to review the designs more thoroughly before assuming that they will become cheaper based solely on a single component becoming cheaper.
Personally, my vote is to save the expenses, both of them, until we have something worthwhile. I REALLY want to get dedicated generators before spending an expense on our magic generation. Maybe we should upgrade the academy and throw both expenses onto our higher-grade wizards?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 16, 2017, 05:34:42 pm
RAM, this isn't a revision. I'm just stating what I believe are the natural benefits of using an expense credit on Magegems. There isn't any complexity or ambition here. It's just what should automatically happen when we upgrade the Magegems. If something is reasonable within the lines of automatic retrofitting as a consequence of the expense credit, then it should be in.
A Cheap AS-R1 means every single soldier in our army gets one. That's great. The AS-R1 may not replace the sword just yet, but every single soldier in our army having even a single shot in advance at approaching enemies or aerial foes is a huge advantage.
And we're not sacrificing anything by getting better Aethergems. Better capacity is good. We're not using a revision to do it. We're not sacrificing any other aspect to do it. With better Magegems means better Aethergems. It's that simple.
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 16, 2017, 05:37:09 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on July 16, 2017, 05:40:33 pm
So we used the upgraded aethergems in the useless flying thing and not in the mundane where it would actually have mattered, great.
I didn't mention it, but yes the Mundane now fires at 3 minutes per round.
Post by: Andres on July 16, 2017, 05:45:16 pm
Gems that are double-charged seem to "wear down" over multiple charging/discharging cycles.Shouldn't regenerative crystal negate this?
Quote
Expense Credit 1
2 - Magegems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7512446#msg7512446): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
1 - Save the credit: Andres
Expense Credit 2
3 - Save the credit: Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Andres
Orders
4 - Do not reveal the F43 in the next battle report: Andres, Helmacon, Kadzar, Chiefwaffles
Post by: RAM on July 16, 2017, 07:03:09 pm
RAM, this isn't a revision. I'm just stating what I believe are the natural benefits of using an expense credit on Magegems. There isn't any complexity or ambition here. It's just what should automatically happen when we upgrade the Magegems. If something is reasonable within the lines of automatic retrofitting as a consequence of the expense credit, then it should be in.You are speculating. I believe some of that speculation to be misleading, I am attempting to correct any misconceptions. I do not see what it being a revision would matter.
A Cheap AS-R1 means every single soldier in our army gets one. That's great. The AS-R1 may not replace the sword just yet, but every single soldier in our army having even a single shot in advance at approaching enemies or aerial foes is a huge advantage.
And we're not sacrificing anything by getting better Aethergems. Better capacity is good. We're not using a revision to do it. We're not sacrificing any other aspect to do it. With better Magegems means better Aethergems. It's that simple.
Swords are mostly useless, as are small arms. One for every soldier would not really change much. It would certainly help, but not so much as to actually change any outcomes. They are using flying tanks, they are the equivalent of bolt-action rifles, the value there is not enough to justify losing the expense credit. A single shot won't hit often unless you are dealing with an extreme elite. And a shot against much of their stuff will do precisely nothing, assuming that it even gets into their range, and even a damaging hit is a long way short of a fatal one. So small-arms are not really worth consideration, not in the scope of something as valuable as an expense credit.
We sacrifice size with aethergems using new magems. We just got out of a proposed revision that cited that numerous generator aeithergems plus a magem could be the same size as a normal aethergem, somehow, implying that the generator component is minuscule. Now apparently the magems are so small that using a larger one doesn't matter? Aethergems appear to be a power-supply attached to a battery. Expense credit would make the batteries more numerous, not smaller. Using a battery with a larger capacity would mean using a battery with a larger volume. The resulting Aethergem would be largr than the alternative, thus resulting is something that was too large for any existing products and multiplying the obvious problems that it already has, as evidenced by the interceptor debacle.
...
Okay, maybe a bit long-winded there.
Observation: Aethergem = source + magem.
Proposal: Aethergem = source + higher-ranked magem of the same cost.
Problem: Higher-ranked magems are bigger, and thus are a problem in any instance in which volume is an issue, such as trying to prevent a ridiculous aircraft from being ludicrously huge in addition to all its numerous and fundamental problems in both design and purpose, or such as trying to transport a large volume of the things to the front lines, or such as trying to have you industry somewhat compact rather than forcing everyone to walk around massive power stations in order to get to their workplace or ship goods to a distributor...
Assuming that this would even work, the outcome would make the aethergems perform worse, because the best aethergem is the one with the highest magic generation for the lowest volume and mass. Which is why we used the smallest ones in the doomed aircraft.
Not that we want it to work, it would put the final nail in the coffin of the idea that source-size changes based upon battery-size. Which would mean that the recently proposed aethergem array would go from being a completely ridiculous interpretation into a completely impossible one. We are finally showing some traces of economy of scale, which would be really nice if they were gemerators instead of aethergems because then the bigger ones would be more size-efficient if we could afford to mount them. Where as presently we lose the advantage of the source's size efficiency because it is strapped to a dead-weight battery...
I am not completely sold on saving the credit, I just don't feel that sufficient cause has been presented yet.
Gems that are double-charged seem to "wear down" over multiple charging/discharging cycles.Shouldn't regenerative crystal negate this?QuoteExpense Credit 1
2 - Magegems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7512446#msg7512446): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
2 - Save the credit: Andres, RAM
Expense Credit 2
4 - Save the credit: Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Andres, RAM
Orders
4 - Do not reveal the F43 in the next battle report: Andres, Helmacon, Kadzar, Chiefwaffles
Post by: helmacon on July 16, 2017, 07:14:21 pm
We are gonna get slaughtered this round...
Also @RAM CW isn't suggesting we use the expense credit on the R1, but that it might be one of many results of using the expense credit on mage gems.
Personally, I think we ought to do so as well, four other reasons.
In my opinion, a better way to go about the air craft would have been to use a single, super large mage gem that acts as a fuel tank, instead of putting the generators on it. There is no reason it needs to be self sustaining.
Next turn, let's start fixing broken tech, instead of doing something new.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 16, 2017, 07:26:15 pm
Quote from: Discord
Chiefwaffles - Today at 5:18 PM
I have two questions:
1.) Ignoring Magegems, are AS-R1s Cheap? They were Expensive then we did the Crystalworks Mk. 2 revision, which lowered the expense of the AS-HAC-1 and many other crystal designs and had mor eability for complicated designs, like the AS-R1.
I'm hoping that the AS-R1 is Cheap because of this. It was Expensive last combat phase, but it wouldn't have really made a difference due to the Magegem limit.
2.) If we do use an Expense Credit on Magegems, do Aethergems get affected too? Since Aethergems use Magegems as a component, I would assume yes?
Andrea [Some time earlier, just being responded to now]
@evictedSaint originally our HA1 shells used A magegems. when we revised magegems we switched to AA magegems for cost reasons. If we now expense magegems to be cheaper, would we be able to implant HA1 shells with A gems again, allowing for more powerful results?
evictedSaint - Today at 5:19 PM
1) magegems are the limiting cost factor of the R1
2) yes
3) yeah, sure
What does this mean?
1.) If we get cheaper Magegems, we get a cheaper AS-R1.
2.) Cheaper Magegems does indeed increase the capacity of Aethergems.
3.) Cheaper Magegems means more powerful Blastshells.
@helmacon:
Couldn't agree with you more on the fixing broken tech thing.
Though there is a problem with the Magegem "fuel tank" idea. Our Aethergems are just better than Magegems.
Right now we need 1 AA Magegem for 1 SPSF-C.
The F43 needs 4x SPSF-Cs every second.
The F43 uses up the equivalent of 4 AA Magegems (20 AAA Magegems) every second. It's just not viable to not use Aethergems. I think people are underestimating how good Aethergems are. It's better to upgrade Aethergems and/or the efficiency of the engine and allow for a completely mundane-usable aircraft instead of upgrading Magegems to use for a kind-of-mundane-usable craft.
Post by: evictedSaint on July 16, 2017, 07:47:30 pm
The F43 requires 4 A-levels per second, or 8 AA-levels, or 40 AAA's. It uses PSF-C's, not SPSF-C's
Post by: RAM on July 16, 2017, 08:02:18 pm
I agree with the problem with the fuel tank. We could, indeed, get more power, but I would only expect it to roughly double or so, maybe a factor of 20 or something if the A is better than the AAA in terms of volume, I am really unclear on that point though. But at best we would have something that could only make a single pass before trying to glide back home, much like an Me-163. Not worthless, but we could probably produce better results by switching entirely over to generators with only a tiny fraction of the storage. Assuming that an aircraft would be worth anything at all when the enemy controls the wind, weather, and has a veritable horde of experienced aerial assets already in place.Quote from: DiscordChiefwaffles - Today at 5:18 PM
I have two questions:
1.) Ignoring Magegems, are AS-R1s Cheap? They were Expensive then we did the Crystalworks Mk. 2 revision, which lowered the expense of the AS-HAC-1 and many other crystal designs and had mor eability for complicated designs, like the AS-R1.
I'm hoping that the AS-R1 is Cheap because of this. It was Expensive last combat phase, but it wouldn't have really made a difference due to the Magegem limit.
2.) If we do use an Expense Credit on Magegems, do Aethergems get affected too? Since Aethergems use Magegems as a component, I would assume yes?
Andrea [Some time earlier, just being responded to now]
@evictedSaint originally our HA1 shells used A magegems. when we revised magegems we switched to AA magegems for cost reasons. If we now expense magegems to be cheaper, would we be able to implant HA1 shells with A gems again, allowing for more powerful results?
evictedSaint - Today at 5:19 PM
1) magegems are the limiting cost factor of the R1
2) yes
3) yeah, sure
What does this mean?
1.) If we get cheaper Magegems, we get a cheaper AS-R1.
2.) Cheaper Magegems does indeed increase the capacity of Aethergems.
3.) Cheaper Magegems means more powerful Blastshells.
Though there is a problem with the Magegem "fuel tank" idea. Our Aethergems are just better than Magegems.
'Also, putting the expense credit on batteries would not help much with this. It would make them cheaper, but they would retain the same volume and weight. So if it worked, we could have more of them, but it is no more likely to work. I doubt that it would work, but it is not impossible that we could get a rapid interceptor akin to the Me-163, which would be horrible to try to use in inclement weather and strong winds. Hopefully we can get a nice clear day to fly in...
On the matter of the implications of the partial chat transcript which has a disturbing lack of context or opportunity to review? No, I strenuously disagree on at least one point.
1: Thankyou for verifying that. I thought it a bit dubious that the whole thing would become cheaper with just a single component changed, but apparently it would. Still not worth taking into consideration as to whether or not the expense is worth it.
2: Just wrong. You need to reread, apply thought, and continue to analyse it after you think you heard what you want to hear.
To refresh:
Quote
2.) If we do use an Expense Credit on Magegems, do Aethergems get affected too? Since Aethergems use Magegems as a component, I would assume yes?There is precisely one way that the third statement could be correct, and it is clear that "net total" is not what was intended. You want to take a AA aethergem, remove the AA magem, plug in an A magem, and end up with a AA magem with a greater capacity. That is very clearly not what was stated. Please understand that you asked the wrong question and got a different answer to what you thought you did. Not that cheaper magems are bad, but cheaper gemerators would be better. Also, Evicted is making a huge mistake here, because the cost bottleneck really isn't going to be the magem, and it is just giving us stuff for free at this point, unless antimagic charms are cheap now?
2) yes
2.) Cheaper Magegems does indeed increase the capacity of Aethergems.
If you can figure out why you are wrong here then you might understand why I keep disagreeing with you. I dislike inaccuracies and many are easy to demonstrate.
3: Actually a good reason to spend the credit. I am still not convinced that it will be worth it. We ought to come up with something really good, but having pretty much wasted this turn we probably need something...
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 16, 2017, 08:19:05 pm
Why are we expense crediting mage gems when we can just expense credit the rifles and cannons directly, allow us to field a lot more of them?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 16, 2017, 08:23:05 pm
Spoiler: Exhibit A (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Exhibit B (click to show/hide)
Quote
2: Just wrong. You need to reread, apply thought, and continue to analyse it after you think you heard what you want to hear.Let's not give Moskurg that espionage credit please, RAM.
Quote
2: Just wrong. You need to reread, apply thought, and continue to analyse it after you think you heard what you want to hear.
To refresh:
Quote
2.) If we do use an Expense Credit on Magegems, do Aethergems get affected too? Since Aethergems use Magegems as a component, I would assume yes?
2) yes
2.) Cheaper Magegems does indeed increase the capacity of Aethergems.
There is precisely one way that the third statement could be correct, and it is clear that "net total" is not what was intended. You want to take a AA aethergem, remove the AA magem, plug in an A magem, and end up with a AA magem with a greater capacity. That is very clearly not what was stated. Please understand that you asked the wrong question and got a different answer to what you thought you did. Not that cheaper magems are bad, but cheaper gemerators would be better.
Uh-huh.
Spoiler: Exhibit C (click to show/hide)
The F43 is a completely failed design. We need something at least ten times more efficient for it to work, but that is not impossible. We got a -1 to the design roll this turn but if we try something similar next turn it might be eliminated. We should be using A level gems with a more efficient system, they will be very expensive but it will at least work.Very Expensive designs, unless they're big, don't work.
And we can just increase the efficiency of the KPD. We're extremely lucky to have the current KPD be so inefficient (it's wasting tons of energy on unfocused explosions beneath the craft) so we can easily improve it in another design without using more expensive Aethergems.
We should use AAethergems in the next aircraft design though. As nice as a Cheap fighter would be, a good Expensive Fighter > mediocre Cheap Fighter.
Why are we expense crediting mage gems when we can just expense credit the rifles and cannons directly, allow us to field a lot more of them?Because that does the same thing as expense crediting Magegems, but without the bonus parts?
Because Expense Crediting Magegems makes the AS-R1 Cheap, greatly improves Blastshells, makes the Mundane Expensive and thus somewhat-not-useless, and more.
Post by: Andres on July 16, 2017, 09:34:45 pm
Quote
Expense Credit 1
3 - Magegems (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7512446#msg7512446): Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Andres
1 - Save the credit: RAM
Expense Credit 2
4 - Save the credit: Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Andres, RAM
Orders
4 - Do not reveal the F43 in the next battle report: Andres, Helmacon, Kadzar, Chiefwaffles
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on July 16, 2017, 10:19:32 pm
Uh-huh.Okay, you understand, I hope, that that last part there was necessary, and you omitted it the first time, and thus your claims, based upon the evidence available, were completely unfounded, yes? You clearly skipped the part where your data was, partially, confirmed. Can you admit that your initial argument was presented with insufficient evidence?Look at the bottom part.Spoiler: Exhibit C (click to show/hide)
Second, my point still stands. Please cite precisely where my assertion that aethergems combined with larger magems would be larger, thus resulting in a lower ability to supply power and thus an inferior product. Please also note that if we use them to increase the capacity then we get a worse benefit than if we used them to reduce the cost. You are still failing to actually read what is being said. Evicted never even suggested that increasing the capacity would come without detrimental side-effects, and the sum total of your proposal continues to be "We will take out a small component and replace it with a larger component and the end result will be the same size". And please don't "because magic" that because I do not want to have to explain why that doesn't apply here and it really ought to be obvious enough that I don't have to.
Furthermore, the end result is that we can confirm that the aethergems have fully detachable magems. This means that the size of the magem has no bearing on the generator, and thus its presence is most likely the same. Thus we really ought to stop trying to mix the two.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 16, 2017, 10:34:04 pm
Logic has been clearly thrown out the window, RAM. I'm not going to engage in this desperate attempt to show that you may technically not be completely wrong any more.
Please just learn to admit when you're wrong, RAM. I'm not trying to put this as a personal attack - admitting when one's wrong is something I could improve on as well, but at this point I'm sure evicted is growing tired of me asking questions to prove that I'm right, and I'm getting pretty tired of it too.
Post by: helmacon on July 16, 2017, 11:00:55 pm
Post by: RAM on July 17, 2017, 12:50:58 am
Order: Replace the magems of the aethergems with circuits.
Normally this would be difficult and have a risk of failure, but apparently we can just hotswap the whole lot from small magems that fit easily to larger magems(that fit like a large peg in a small hole, which is apparently quite well actually?) without an action, so an order to just remove the things entirely out to be free...
Anyway, "aethergems become cheaper" is the most likely scenario in context, given that cheapness is what is happening and a component of the aethergem is becoming cheaper. "aethergems gain incrased capacity" is possible, but unsupported. "aethergems all explode simultaneously and the technology to produce them is permanently lost" is also consistent with "aethergems are affected" asthat would, indeed, be them being affected by the change.
"2.) Cheaper Magegems does indeed increase the capacity of Aethergems." is not vague or conditional. It "does indeed" state that capacity is the specific thing that is happening. Do you admit this much? Do you admit that this is not supported by the statement "aethergems are affected" and that you did, at that time, have nothing else to go on? Do you further admit that you still do not have any reason to believe that we will not be dealing with larger aethergems due to the inclusion of larger magems(A cheaper A is still A-sized regardless of how cheap it is, expense credit doesn't do anything to their size) and thus, with a larger unit, with identical generating power, they will be less effective in the aircraft, which already has problems with size and weight of its magic-generating apparatus and has not demonstrated any issues at all with respect to magic storage, and, indeed, I challenge you to cite a single instance in which increasing the storage of an aethergem would help any single one of our large projects.
Instead of asking numerous vague ambiguous questions, try asking just direct and brief ones:
Quote
I want to use cheaper magems(from an expense credit) to increase the storage capacity of our aethergems by implanting, for example, A magems into AA aethergems as the A magems would now be abundant enough to do so.Had you asked that then you would actually know(or been politely informed that such information was not appropriate or available to disseminate), but you didn't, so you don't.
1: Is this possible as part of the expense credit with no revision or design?
2: Will the resulting higer-storage aethergems still be usable in their former roles without any revisions or designs?
3: Will this result in a worse "power to weight" ratio from the affected aethergems?
You do not know if the high-capacity aethergems would fit in the same slots, but we know that they won't, because we know that larger magems are, in fact, larger, and your plan would involve placing larger magems into existing aethergem designs. Maybe if we had space-warping magic that would not be the case, but we don't. the sum total of this idea is "take out a small component and insert a large one".
You do not know if they will be less efficient at generating power in th e same volume and weight, but we know that they will be, because it is taking the same generator, and hooking it up to a bigger battery. Surprisingly enough, when you add a larger, heavier component without increasing the performance, then your performance becomes worse relative to volume and weight. Again, maybe if we had space magic we could put all we wanted into a small package with no external changes. But we don't, this is a mechanical proposal with a mechanical outcome.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 17, 2017, 01:07:49 am
Guys, please. Keep it in the bedroom.Don't interrupt the honeymoon.
EDIT:
This revision relies on the F44 design, or anything else implementing the
Future Revision: Wireless Linkgem
We've already created the Linkgem, a slightly modified Magegem that turns audio into magical signals and vice versa, for travelling across a wire. This was the easy part, as we had already done magic and audio conversion and the only real addition was keeping the signals tidy and adding a wire between two gems.
But now comes the real challenge. A wireless Linkgem.
There exist uncountable types of ambient magic not normally of consequence to the real world. Through Mathemagics, certain frequencies that don't interfere with all known applications of magic (including anti-magic of both sides!) can be isolated.
Then we can apply a slightly different form of the sound-magic conversion method already employed in the Linkgem to convert the sound to that magical frequency and transmit it throughout the area. Other Linkgems set to the same frequency will absorb these waves and convert them to sound, creating an effective wireless method of communication.
This being a revision, unfortunately we don't have time to implement ideas such as another AAA Magegem "dial" that changes the frequency on the go. While we should b able to implement this in future applications of the Linkgems, for now our Linkgems will be set to certain frequencies at production.
Ultimately, this is just a tweaking of our current audio<->magic conversion methods to work with certain magical frequencies and removing the wire so these magical waves transmit freely.
TL;DR: Make magical radios. This is only a revision if we make wired Linkgems first. And as wired Linkgems are effectively just can telephones, that part should be easy and able to be done as a minor element of an existing design or maaaybe a revision. Otherwise this is probably a design.
Post by: evictedSaint on July 17, 2017, 11:40:25 am
Post by: Andres on July 17, 2017, 11:52:28 am
Looks like a tie between saving the credits and expensing mage gems. Coin flip in an hour or so.But it isn't a tie. The vote is 3-1 in favour of using them on magegems.
Post by: helmacon on July 17, 2017, 01:37:31 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on July 17, 2017, 01:55:14 pm
We further cheapen production of magegems, decreasing the cost by 1.
AAAethergems are Cheap.
AAethergems are Cheap.
Aethergems are Expensive.
We create a new type of gem to fill the Very Expensive slot, referred to as a D-level Aethergem, or "Dethergem". It has storage equivalent to two Aethergems, and recharges fully in five minutes.
The AS-R1 is Cheap now, as are all our special ammo types. The Mundane goes down an expense level.
Post by: Andres on July 17, 2017, 02:34:52 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on July 17, 2017, 02:41:56 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 18, 2017, 03:06:25 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on July 18, 2017, 03:12:41 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on July 19, 2017, 10:21:54 am
How will you deal with the Saint this year?
Post by: RAM on July 19, 2017, 02:58:05 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on July 19, 2017, 05:12:51 pm
Post by: Draignean on July 19, 2017, 05:13:32 pm
Post by: helmacon on July 19, 2017, 05:37:26 pm
Show the saint our magi-tech (trains, tanks, assembly lines) but not any of our actual magic.
Post by: Gwolfski on July 19, 2017, 05:57:03 pm
that sounded good
Post by: evictedSaint on July 19, 2017, 06:18:12 pm
Arstotzka makes a thing this year, but it has a tendency to flip over and explode. Despite the potential military applications of a giant exploding thing, they decide not to release it this year. For their revision they improve their Aethergems, allowing them to recharge much, much faster. This improves the rate of fire of their HA1-b "Mundane". They hold back one of their Expense Credits and use the other to make Aethergems even cheaper, reducing the cost of their Mundane and R1 - which is now Expensive and Cheap respectively.
Moskurg has decided that More Flying Things Is Good and produce what they call "The Phoenix" - a giant flying flamethrower. Essentially a giant tanker filled with Alnnar and powered by dozens of Adamantium War Pegasi Scrolls, it is hardy enough to withstand anything smaller than an HAC-1 at Medium Range and able to spew the oily substance on the poor men below. It rolls with perfect Effectiveness and no Bugs, but some members of the Moskurg Design Team are still angry that it's not fast and can't fly very high or tank full-sized artillery shells. Rather than fix any of those things however, Moskurg instead spend their revisions improving their Anti-Magic to be usable from their Skyskiffs and create a variant of their Firestorm grenades called "Fire and Thunder" - much less fire and much more boom. For their Expense Credit they've decided to spend it wooing the traveling magician.
The Taiga, Arstotzkas Homeland, is the first to see the devastating power of the Phoenix this year.
Moskurg Skyskiffs, still virtually untouchable, run rampant over the skies this year - the same as they had last year. The only difference is that the "gunner" can use their Anti-Magic Ivory Staves to stall the magic of the wizards below. Their initial supply of new-and-improved grenades (now with brittle iron shells to throw shrapnel) is spent first. All-in-all the new grenades don't do much that the old ones can't. The shrapnel doesn't penetrate armor unless it's really close, and it doesn't leave flaming patches of hard-to-put-out fire. Still, they're great against softer targets like horses or unarmored men. Once their bomb stores run dry the Skyskiffs stop high in the air and blanket the ground below with their Anti-Magic fields. Arstotzkan circuitry still isn't immune to anti-magic, so their cannons and guns can't fire. This proves to be a horrific oversight.
Over the horizon, massive oblong Adamantium ships crawl towards Arstotzkan lines. As they pass over Arstotzkan troops and defenses, the small turret on the bottom of the ship sprays those below with the contents of the tank above. Unable to use their cannons, there's little Arstotzka can do but attempt to flee as a single bolt of lightning arcs from one of the ships above to the mess below.
Arstotzkas entire battle line goes up in flames.
The forests burn non-stop this year.
Moskurg gains a section of Taiga this year. They've held the Jungle for a year, and may exploit it for the Jungle Wood.
The R1 proves to be more effective in the desert where more open lines of sight are available, and the melees that occur when Moskurg troops surprise Arstotzkan forces go almost entirely in Arstotzka's favor. The R1 is never a soldiers only weapon, but the ability to quickly kill an enemy before switching to axe or broadsword is invaluable. The 11 mm bullet punches through the thin leather-backed Adamantium armor that Moskurg soldiers wear, but one shot is all it's good for before the excess weight is dropped and the soldier goes for his main weapon. The Protector is still suffering from poor locomotion and asphyxiation, but now they're also suffering from Anti-Magic from above completely shutting down the IDE engine inside.
Moskurg, meanwhile, has learned that they can't beat Arstotzka in a fair fight - either in artillery slug matches or man-to-man melee's. They rely entirely on their airforce now, shutting down Arstotzkan magic and bombing men below. With the advent of the Phoenix Arstotzka has learned to space their artillery out in huge, wide fields of deployment. This makes it difficult to coordinate bracketing fire or protect one another from assaults, but on occasion a Moskurg Skyskiff will fail to shut down an artillery piece as the Phoenix comes in for the killing blow. The explosions are breathe-taking, and anyone within a half-mile of the crash usually doesn't walk away from it, but these lucky strikes are few and in between. Even without the Phoenix, naval superiority, or al-Mutriqa (who has taken a liking to standing on the bow of the giant fire-breathing Adamantium balloon), Moskurg could probably have pushed their Arstotzkan intruders back this year anyways.
Moskurg regains a control of the Desert.
With Moskurg forces tied up fighting in the desert, they are unable to push north to fight in the Plains or Mountains. No battle occurs there this year, but things look grim for the defenders this coming year.
Arstotzka continues to hold the Mountains and Plains.
Neither side really does much this year that drastically changes the war on the oceans. Skyskiffs are still the weapon of choice for Moskurg, and Crystalclads are still what Arstotzka relies on for their naval power. With nothing really changing, Moskurg gains full control of the seas to the East and West of Forenia this year.
Moskurg gains a section of shoreline in both the Eastern and Western Seas and now has full control of both.
!!DESIGN CREDIT!!
Both sides attempt to woo the fabulous Saint this year.
Arstotzka starts off with their magical technology; demonstrating the feats of magic they're capable of producing without a mage at all! The Saint is quite impressed - he admits that some of the feats they've performed are difficult for even him to perform. He does a flourish and immediately pulls a string of handkerchiefs out of his mouth that goes on for an inordinate amount of time before ending in a pair of pantaloons. Everyone applauds despite their confusion. Next they give him a Restless train of his own; a large, blocky hunk of crystal confined to Arstotzka's limited railway system. He's less impressed, but still accepts the gift and then pulls a bouquet of flowers out of thin air and hands them to a bystander.
Moskurg tries to put on a bit of fanfare, showing off their magical prowess in a fantastic show that mimics many of the feats they've seen him perform. He seems...less than enthused, muttering about "originality" and how they were "riffing off his talent", but his annoyance turns to awe when Moskurg pulls back the curtains to reveal the treasure seized from the merchant last year. The Saint vanishes in a puff of smoke, only to reappear on top of the pile of gold with a deck of cards. He successfully discerns which card a nearby child pulls from the deck and asks everyone to check their pockets, as they've all gained the same card magically - the Ace of Spades. With a bit of a flourish, the Saint doffs his top hat, does a bow, and then does his most amazing trick yet - vanishing without a trace with every last coin on stage. Though they search far and wide, it seems the Saint has disappeared from the island altogether with nary a credit left behind.
Neither side gains the Design Credit.
Espionage Credit!!!
After a bit of finger-snapping interrogation, it seems the trader is from the far-off land of China. He admits to buying the boat from the former trader after his last trade run, intending to take his place and make his fortune selling magical artifacts from Forenia. Unfortunately, his intentions were less-than-pure; had he managed to gain something of value from your nation, he would have gone to your enemy and attempted to sell your secrets for a massive profit.
Fortunately, this gives us a unique opportunity to use his skilled crew to further our own gains. Loyal to a fault, they agree to perform an Espionage Credit for us if we release their captain and return their ship. If we agree to these terms, we must honor our word and release the trader captain once their work is done. Of course, we could just execute them all and be done with the mess...they're not exactly trust-worthy, after all.
It is 945, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 945 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Behavior Rules. Please Read.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: helmacon on July 19, 2017, 06:26:17 pm
A.) Sink another design into the F43
and
B.) use the revision on either anti magic hardened circuits or penetrator shells to kill the sky skiffs.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 19, 2017, 06:38:37 pm
Hopefully the ASAF should help with the sky skiffs.
Design: ASAF-F44 "Avenger"
The KPD is a good start, but is lacking. That is why the main focus in this design is the KPD Mk. 2, an incremental improvement of its predecessor. The rest of the F44 is an incremental but serious improvement to the F43. The F43 was a prototype - a proof of concept. The F44 is the real deal.
Spoiler: Fluff (click to show/hide)
Generally speaking, the F44 is intended to be similar to the F43 in aspects not mentioned below.
KPD Mark 2 - "Fix" the KPD to be like how it was envisioned - "pushing" the craft via direct and precise applications of kinetic energy, allowing UFO-like movement of equal (+fast) speed in any direction. Intended side-effect is that this is much more energy efficient because of the precise usage of energy instead of wasting it in unfocused explosions like the F43.
Ball Turret/20mm Upgrade - Upgrade the ball turret to have mechanical controls from the inside and to house a 20mm gun based off of the AS-HAC-1 for armor piercing while retaining high muzzle velocity.
Reactor - Due to KPD Mk. 2's efficiency and our AGem revision, we can greatly reduce the number of Aethergems to the foint where they can fit in a crystal chamber between the cockpit and turret, roughly the size of the cockpit. All Aethergems are stored here and the armor is a bit thicker than the cockpit. The Reactor should use whatever AGem size is best for power to size/mass - sizes A through AAA are fine to use.
Structure - Very roughly like an arrowhead. Cockpit at front connected to the Reactor connected to the Ball Turret. This is just aesthetics.
Difficulty - This should actually be on the easier end of designs. Whereas the F43 was a venture into completely new territory, the F44 is simply building off of what we learned with the F43 to make a new, competent craft.
Expense - The F43 is expensive and we're not really adding any expense. We're using Expensive Aethergems instead of Cheap AAAethergems, but as it's just Expensive it shouldn't give us any penalties/threaten to raise it to Very Expensive. If anything, it should be cheaper as the extreme amount of AAAethergems should probably be pretty expense. In short, the F43 is expensive and the F44 isn't doing anything that should make it anything more than just Expensive as well.
TL;DR: A refined version of the F44 with the primary focus on improving the KPD to be much more graceful - with the UFO-like kinetic "pushing" originally envisioned instead of the crude energy-wasting explosions beneath the craft. Speed, stability, agility, and energy efficiency should all go way up. Make the ball turret better, switch to (faster-regenerating) Aethergems + use greater efficiency to greatly reduce Aethergem count then put it in an armored "Reactor". If time left, make
TL;DR TL;DR: F43 was a proof of concept, now make an actual aircraft building on what we learned last turn.
Quote
DESIGN
1 - ASAF-F44: Chiefwaffles
Post by: Light forger on July 19, 2017, 07:10:01 pm
The Vigilant is the second Arstotzka attempt to enter the air war. The craft is slightly smaller then a fishing boat and is made completely out of crystal. It's lifted into the air by the new created "aurora generator" which creates a brightly colored gas that seems to repel itself from the ground even when compressed however, it dissipates. The generator feeds two tanks located on either side of the craft to provide lift. Importantly while the generator itself is still weak to Moskurg's anti-magic the gas doesn't fade meaning the craft can safely float down even when affected. The craft is moved by a slightly smaller version of the protector's engine fitted with a large propeller and is located in a cabin in the back of the vessel. The cabin is completely covered protecting the crew, engine and generator from lighting and ballistae bolts. It's partly powered by a box full of aethergems in the cabin which are able to power either the engine or the generator. The front of the craft has a HA1 with a gunner and a loader mounted on it;s normal turret mount. This provides a stable platform to snipe Moskurg's aircraft. It can also carry crates of blastshells and addition crew if the aurora generator proves powerful enough.
Reason to go with the vigilant:
- Won't fall out the sky like an exploding brick if hit with anti-magic
- Further designs can use our powerful artillery
- Likely to work with a lower roll
- Useful in the long run if revised as a transport craft
Quote from: Designs
1 - ASAF-F44 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7514878#msg7514878): Chiefwaffles
1 - Vigilant Sky Cutter (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7514913#msg7514913): Lightforger
Post by: RAM on July 19, 2017, 07:19:36 pm
Anyway...
Mage-Slayers
Having looked long and hard into how, precisely, our crystals were expelled by the Kegger no-fun-zone when our own magical-devourers had no effect, it has become apparent that there is an active, magical component to their antimagic. All that we need to do is attune our antimagic charms to consume this mutated variation of magic and we can effectively counter it. But, given that our antimagic charms can draw magic into themselves, it seems evident that we can instead have them draw themselves into the magic! All we need to do is armour and sharpen such a thing and hurl it at the enemy and it will promptly fly into the Kegger mage from which the antimagic field is being generated, making a nice hole in them.
Once that preliminary stage is performed, we hope to produce variants that are attuned to weather magic, such as storms, which we can test on frost towers, and force-magic, such as wind, which we can test on force-balls. So long as we keep them properly separated from magic using antimagic charms, they should remain inert until they are ready to be used. Given that they will seek out targets by their own means, it should be possible to mount a small, detaching antimagic charm onto our cannon projectiles that will not have the range to affect the firing chamber and will fall off, either by being pulled off by a tassel or being ripped off using a rope affixed to an anchor prior to launching. Or we could just release them when they are within a magical antimagic field to seek out the source under their own power...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 19, 2017, 07:26:23 pm
1.) You have no idea if we needed a 6 for the anti-magic-resistant crystal. Remember how we got that whole "-1 expense level for all crystal designs"? That was what the 6 did for us.
2.) The revision is simple. We take our Resistive crystal then we revise it to resist against magic, instead of electricity. Now magic can't "leak out" from circuits. Bam. Magegems+Aethergems are already immune to anti-magic, so we don't need to bother with that.
Post by: RAM on July 19, 2017, 07:56:54 pm
Magic is not "leaking out" of circuits. If their antmiagic worked like that then it would not have done anything to our crystals in the first place, as they were already immune to "leaking out" into our own suction-based antimagic. We do not know how pervasive their antimagic is, but it visibly worked like a cloud. If you wand completely-sealed circuits then maybe they can block all of the antimagic, but a coating thick enough to stop antimagic would likely have detrimental effects on the size of a circuits, and the extra thickness would likely require a massive overhaul of our existing circuitry to make it fit into existing designs made around smaller circuitry.
Magic is not electricity. Reattuning between magical elements is tricky enough, reattuning from mundane to magic is bound to be worse. Impossible? No, but as a revision? Pushing it, pushing it a lot...
The crystals in our batteries are immune to being dispelled. That does not mean that the energy or their operation is immune to being dispelled. I would be rather disturbed if their antimagic caused our batteries to vanish. If, however, they stopped working? That seems extremely plausible.
I just vfeel a little nervous about making a design that requires a dubious revision in order to function... ... ... ...
Post by: Kadzar on July 20, 2017, 12:55:45 am
Right now, Moskurg can just nullify the entirety of our our magitech and our spell-casting with their staffs, and there's nothing we can do about it. Even supposing we get the skyship off the ground and it isn't brought down by antimagic, I'm not so sure it will be enough to take down the airships on its own. Also, there's no guarantee that we'd be able to apply antimagic shielding to more than one thing with a revision, since, as far as I know, there isn't precedent for doing so except in cases involving upgrading already existing tech, which this would not be.
And, finally, I'm not so sure having a workable aircraft requires more than a revision. Sure, it may not have all the fancy bells and whistles you'd like, but the main thing our current prototype needs at the moment to be usable is a more efficient engine. Doing it as a design might, in fact, be to our detriment, since we rolled rather decently for the F43 other than for Effectiveness, and, as per Iituem's explanations of the rolls (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163275.msg7397653#msg7397653), "As a general rule, Revision phases let you try and fix one of the three earlier rolls," in which case Effectiveness would apply. So trying to make a design based on the f43 could lead to something that works, but has more bugs or is more expensive, whereas simply doing a revision will either lead to a better product or fail entirely, which we don't need to waste a design doing.
Therefore, I propose:
Design: Antimagic Shielding
Moskurg Antimagic has been a thorn in our side for a long time, but now it's become unbearable. That's why our designers have devised a new type of crystal which protects our magic from antimagical interference. It works much like the mythical "Faraday Cage" of Arstotzkan legend, blocking out harmful Moskurg antimagic particles so that those inside are free to cast as much as they like. There's no guarantee that spells cast inside the shielding will be protected once they leave the barrier, but our mundane projectiles should at least still work perfectly fine, and our Protectors should now only be stopped by their faulty suspension.
Quote from: Designs
1 - ASAF-F44 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7514878#msg7514878): Chiefwaffles
1 - Vigilant Sky Cutter (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7514913#msg7514913): Lightforger
1 - Antimagic Shielding (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7515147#msg7515147): Kadzar
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 20, 2017, 01:12:56 am
Revisions aren't really just rerolling one roll of a design. They're fixing or improving an aspect of an existing design (sometimes making a variant of an existing design/tech/etc.). If the 1 in effectiveness manifested in a single issue ("it's super super slow") then we could fix it to "adequate" in a revision, but the F43 doesn't have a single issue.
For example, we can't just say "reroll the F43's effectiveness." If the F43 had a single problem, then sure. But it doesn't. Here are some of the F43's issues preventing it from being useful:
- Its massive amount of AAAethergems mean it's extremely vulnerable - a single shot (which Moskurg is really good at it) to the biggest target on the F43 means the whole thing explodes.
- The ball turret has to be manually aimed (to track very fast-moving targets with a breech-loading cannon) and used an AS-HAC-1, which is too low caliber to pierce Moskurg's armor at anything other than Short range, which is impractical for aerial combat. "Precise aiming is difficult" was a line in the F43 design report. Which means the F43 would be extremely ineffectual against their small fast-moving armored ships.
- The F43 propels itself via a cushion of blastball explosives underneath it, making it extremely unagile and generally impossible to fly. Even if we improved this, it would still fly like a convoluted hovercraft/helicopter. Not something good for dogfighting.
- The F43 is still heavy. While the Aethergem revision helps greatly, its weight will mean it'll be slow in the skies even if we get it flying at all.
- "Until the serious control, stability, propulsion, and thrust-to-weight issues are solved, the F43 is unusable and little more than a frightening proof-of-concept. "
These problems can be fixed in a design, but they all have to be fixed to make the F43 anywhere near usable. And it's way out of scope for revisions. And even if we could do all this in a revision, it wouldn't be done well. It could be made able to fly, but not useful.
Post by: andrea on July 20, 2017, 01:31:38 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 20, 2017, 01:33:01 am
But I'm almost certain I've heard evicted state that our circuits are already close to being anti-magic resistant and our gems already are immune.
Post by: RAM on July 20, 2017, 02:48:22 am
The absolute impossibility of getting antimagic at all in a revision is a bit strong, especially with recent events, specifically what appears for all the world like them being able to protect their own stuff from their own antimagic as a revision, but that was probably a revision of antimagic to change its shape, rather than a revision of every piece of their magical technology to be immune to it... I would be hesitant to say that we can get antimagic to a single item, like the aircraft, which will be completely useless
Much as I dislike the idea of a flying machine in general, as we would be better off denying them the battlefield that they are so specialised in rather than trying to compete directly against their strongest point, and feel that the latest flying machines suffer from much the same flaws that the previous one did, such as pointless upscaling of a weapon(why not downgscale if the HAC-1 is "not our most advanced cannon" and we actually have experience with that) and a complete failure to prioritise the one thing that has the slightest chance of making it stable enough to shoot from or to fly or to survive five minutes of without a fatal concussion and thus with another bad roll(or even average) is the difference between completely useless and mostly useless. I do not recall it ever being said that we even got any experience with the force film that the design cannot live without, so there is no compelling reason that the same rolls would get a different outcome.
As for the other one? I am not really clear on how it works, or how we are supposed to know how to do that. Is it based upon fog? Some sort of buoyant fog that is solid enough to push up off of? Kind of like a snowmobile that rides on temporary immovable snow that is really pretty? It does sound better when I put it like that. I mean, they can still dispel our fog, so useless without antimagic resistance, but a temporary immovable physical structure would presumably give us a very great deal of wind resistance. As opposed to the force film that needs to constantly move against the wind in addition to whatever else it wants to do.
Living Spell: The Watcher of Worlds
We take the wasp spell, and refine it down to its basic parts, and isolate the part that grants the wasps their agency.
We take the hawk taming spell, and identify what it is to control a mind.
We we wield mathemagics to our conjuration to take these elements and bind them to the most fundamental of active magics, to imbue upon them a will, and to guide it into a thing of purpose.
The result is a rather simple thing. A completely immaterial cloud that is trained to live off of a stack of power gems. It remains as such, ever persisting and remaining sensitive to any attacks against it. Its response to such attacks is violent, well, the magical equivalent of violence. It attempts to rip, devour, wrestle, repulse, disperse, or all manner of other things against any sample of antimagic that it is exposed to. The specifics of the 'battle' are somewhat difficult to describe. Somewhat akin to competitive singing with spiked balls attempting to match patterns against other patters, either for incompatibility or excess compatibility, or any number of- well, difficult to explain... It is feared that this would work somewhat poorly against our own antimagic, given that it is a physical device that absorbs magic, the most successful of the spells at opposing them have relied on quarantine or attempting to overload the antimagic charms with extremely intense bursts, but it seems that it should be able to convert the Kegger antimagic into a contest of magical input, which we should always win given our magic generation capacity, and which we should have a keen advantage in given that the spells learn and adapt to perform better, can be guided by a mage stationed at their power source(who can also contribute magic to the battle using the usual methods of transference to our batteries), and are specifically designed and trained towards such battles.
Overall we are hoping for a five to one ratio of power that we have to contribute compared to how much they would need to contribute in order to match us. These spells should tear theirs apart with a relatively small compliment of minders.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 20, 2017, 03:01:21 am
Also, the design is literally useless without it. Chiefwaffles themselves said that designing to need a revision was generally bad practice, and that was with fairly reliable revisions.All our designs are literally useless without it. And a design uses dice just like a revision. In fact, a design has more points of failure because it could end up very buggy or very expensive. Ultimately, we have to address anti-magic.
If anti-magic was something that only affected aircraft, then I may had agreed with you. But it doesn't.
and feel that the latest flying machines suffer from much the same flaws that the previous one did, such as pointless upscaling of a weaponNot pointless.
The AS-HAC-1 cannot pierce Moskurg vehicle armor at anything other than short range. That is very bad. That is why we're upscaling the AS-HAC-1 by a relatively minor amount. I have made this clear, but you ignored it.
(why not downgscale if the HAC-1 is "not our most advanced cannon" and we actually have experience with that)I don't believe I have ever said that. Searching the phrase "most advanced" in this topic yields nothing from me talking about anything even remotely related to the AS-HAC-1.
I also have no idea what you're even trying to say here. So; moving on.
and a complete failure to prioritise the one thing that has the slightest chance of making it stable enough to shoot from or to fly or to survive five minutes of without a fatal concussion and thus with another bad roll(or even average)And would you mind telling the class what exactly this mystical "one thing" is?
is the difference between completely useless and mostly useless. I do not recall it ever being said that we even got any experience with the force film that the design cannot live without, so there is no compelling reason that the same rolls would get a different outcome....said RAM, after apparently somehow purging his memories of all of Wands Race up to this point.
Because it's pretty clear based on literally every single action we've ever done since the start of the game that yes RAM, experience in designs does, in fact, matter.
Post by: RAM on July 20, 2017, 04:52:18 am
I am going to pretend for a moment that you are actually asking a question and trying to improve your design. The "one thing" is the propulsion. It doesn't work in antimagic, so we need to be certain we sort that out first, but if you want to have a credible design, after so clearly failing to get exactly the same thing last time, and not actually getting any confirmed bonuses to the rolls. State clearly that nothing else matters if you don't get the propulsion. This much is obviously true, you were all too happy to state that the propulsion would let us get flying armour in a revision when you made no efforts at all to guarantee the propulsion would actually happen last time and are making exactly the same mistake twice in a row.and a complete failure to prioritise the one thing that has the slightest chance of making it stable enough to shoot from or to fly or to survive five minutes of without a fatal concussion and thus with another bad roll(or even average)And would you mind telling the class what exactly this mystical "one thing" is?
Okay this is all sorts of confusing... Firstly, please be clear. Are you saying that if you have to do something, something small(we disagree on whether antiantimagic is a small task, so I am assuming that you mean small tasks here), then it is more likely to achieve a satisfactory result by being performed as a revision than as a design? That is the only way that I can make sense of your "points of failure" bit having any relevance to anything. ?I mean, you might of been factoring in the associated costs, but if you did then, well, that really REALLY REALLY doesn't seem like the implication that you were making. So seriously, please clarify exactly what you meant to imply with the whole bit with comparing designs and revisions, because otherwise I am going to have to assume that it translates to "Revisions are more likely to satisfy identical objectives than designs are" which seems like a silly statement even if you are being very specific about which projects it applies to.Also, the design is literally useless without it. Chiefwaffles themselves said that designing to need a revision was generally bad practice, and that was with fairly reliable revisions.All our designs are literally useless without it. And a design uses dice just like a revision. In fact, a design has more points of failure because it could end up very buggy or very expensive. Ultimately, we have to address anti-magic.
If anti-magic was something that only affected aircraft, then I may had agreed with you. But it doesn't.
And what does only affecting aircraft have to do with whether or not you agree with the statement? I really don't see any connection there. Unless you mean that a revision is more likely to succeed if it applies to all of our technology rather than just aircraft? Or your design affects more than just aircraft? Or, uh? Seriously, how does any part of that statement make any sense? It is addressed to me so I feel compelled to try to figure it out but I am not seeing any plausible interpretations.
and feel that the latest flying machines suffer from much the same flaws that the previous one did, such as pointless upscaling of a weaponNot pointless.
The AS-HAC-1 cannot pierce Moskurg vehicle armor at anything other than short range. That is very bad. That is why we're upscaling the AS-HAC-1 by a relatively minor amount. I have made this clear, but you ignored it.
"Skyskiff"... Adamantium canoe ... armor is thick enough to prevent HAC-1 penetration at medium range
"The Phoenix" ... hardy enough to withstand anything smaller than an HAC-1 at Medium Range ...not fast and can't fly very highThe Skyskiff is a canoe, presumably that means open top, I am not familiar with many canoes that have rigid coverings on the top and none with as much as they do on the bottom. The Phoenix is vulnerable at medium range. The whole point of an aircraft is that it can get above and can get close. If it can't then there is no value to putting our guns on janky little unstable things that cost The Earth when they could just as easily be put on the ground. If the flying machine cannot get into close range then that is very bad. The upscaling is almost 50%, I find it extremely unlikely that you will find any quotes of 50% being "relatively minor" from any remotely credible sources that are aware of the proportions. So please specify exactly what it is that the flying machine cannot pierce at medium range. The open-top canoe that it can't shoot down at or the flying explosion the can be pierced at medium range? Or am I missing something? I am happy to apologise if there is, in fact, something that it cannot penetrate at medium range. Or is it possible that you will admit to being wrong about the range at which we can penetrate?
(why not downgscale if the HAC-1 is "not our most advanced cannon" and we actually have experience with that)I don't believe I have ever said that. Searching the phrase "most advanced" in this topic yields nothing from me talking about anything even remotely related to the AS-HAC-1.
I also have no idea what you're even trying to say here. So; moving on.[/quote]
I apologise, I hoped that you would remember what you had said and I could afford to be lazy and not look up the precise terminology.
How exactly is the AS-HAC-1 our most complicated cannon? The only thing it does unique is fire a much smaller caliber than the HC1-E.It was actually "most complex" rather than "most advanced". I was wrong, and I honestly apologise for the brief lapse in accuracy of my statements. Now can we go back to sanity for a moment and state precisely why we are trying to make our autocannon-equivalent larger instead of making our field-gun-equivalent smaller? We have already done the latter once, we have never done the former. If the calibre is the only difference then why do something new?
P.S.
I searched for "calibre".
I am not crazy about Antimagic shielding. It only applies to things that we can put in cages. Now, hopefully, that applies to the internals of our guns, and to our armour, so basically everything, but it still leaves me with concerns that it might be difficult to put it on a gun casing and could leave weapons exposed. But that was mostly my initial concern and has largely cleared up upon realising that individual guns can have it in addition to whole vehicles. Really just saying this because it worried me for ages before I noticed my error, so please just ignore this whole bit unless there is some compelling reason to worry. Still, it does seem rather unambitious. It is just a shell that has little other utility that I can think of nor progression towards other fields. I like to think that we will be needing a living spell to get our flying machine to remain stable when it is trying to stay upright by applying even pressure in the midst of a squall, but that will probably just be ignored, still magnificently useful thing to develop though. So, basically, I think that we can do better, but it would, at least, get the job done.
Quote from: Designs
1 - ASAF-F44 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7514878#msg7514878): Chiefwaffles
1 - Vigilant Sky Cutter (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7514913#msg7514913): Lightforger
1 Mage-Slayers: RAM
2 - Antimagic Shielding (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7515147#msg7515147): Kadzar, RAM
1 Living Spell: The Watcher of Worlds: RAM
Post by: Andres on July 20, 2017, 05:27:15 am
the potential military applications of a giant exploding thingHuh. You know, the F43 would make a great base for the ammunition for a supercannon. With the Expense Credit we could make quite a few of them to boot. Something for later.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 20, 2017, 06:09:06 am
We already know exactly how to convert magic into sound using the structure of a gem.
Revison: Mathemagics [3]
We've done it!!!
Well, Jibril Saadiya has done it.
Magical energy has a property called "wavelength" - a term Jibril made up to reflect how this property is much like the waves of the ocean. By once again adjusting the spellwork that pulls magic from the air and collects it inside the confines of the crystal we've managed to produce a prototype that actually drains magic quickly enough to work as a counter-spell. It had something to do with matching the "phase sequence" of the quartz to the "natural wavelength" of magical interference. Magical energy conjured within range of the crystal is dissipated back into aether faster than it can be pulled - this dissipation was originally done through heat, but now only produces an annoying hum. Our researchers are still trying to understand the equations that comprise this new field of mathematics - now termed "Mathemagics".
1.) Making the anti-magic charm convert magic into sound instead of heat was a completely intentional and conscious action by us. It wasn't an accident or something we just noticed. We did it on purpose.
2.) Doing so falls under the field of Mathemagics. Mathemagics, since then, has been developed to extreme amounts. Magegems, Aethergems. Circuits. How we use magic almost like electricity. We already knew exactly how to create this effect, and since then we've greatly improved at the science behind it.
3.) This revision was 3 months ago. In the year 922. Right now it's 944. 22 in-game years have passed since we intentionally did this.
Really, Linkgems should be effortless. They're applying a practically-mastered science to make very slight improvements to something we intentionally did 22 years ago.
You know the Tin Can telephone? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_can_telephone) It's a very simple device. Sound hits the insides of the can, is transmitted via vibrations along the string to the other can where it then travels across air again.
This is what the Linkgem is. Sound hits the Linkgem, is transmitted via magic along the crystal to the other Linkgem where it then travels across air again.
We know how to turn magic into sound. We've known how to do this for 22 years. This is just applying the concept differently then how it already is applied.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 20, 2017, 07:29:49 am
But anyways. SPACE.
Quote from: Designs
2 - ASAF-F44 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7514878#msg7514878): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
1 - Vigilant Sky Cutter (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7514913#msg7514913): Lightforger
1 Mage-Slayers: RAM
2 - Antimagic Shielding (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7515147#msg7515147): Kadzar, RAM
1 Living Spell: The Watcher of Worlds: RAM
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 20, 2017, 10:24:38 am
New Thrust Type
New reactor
New aerodynamics
New Gun
New Communications
Heavy Armor
We will get like -2 to the rolls.
It looks like the enemy can now use their anti magic from their own lines/ships while still using magic, meaning that they are no longer effected by their own anti magic in any spell. On a revision.
Homing Blast Shells
This upgrade to the blast shells has a mage link themselves to the internal mechanisms before the cannon ball is launched from an HA-1. The shell is then directed by blasts controlled by the mage making it extremely accurate, while the aethergems and blastshell effect detonates on hitting the enemy, creating an even more spectacular explosion then the original Blastshell-E.
This creates a shell that is both extremely fast and accurate at medium range, guided by an intelligent person, and has more explosive power then any existing shell, all without raising expense past expensive.
Post by: andrea on July 20, 2017, 11:11:30 am
Post by: RAM on July 20, 2017, 03:17:16 pm
Post by: andrea on July 20, 2017, 03:44:28 pm
Post by: RAM on July 20, 2017, 04:17:18 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 20, 2017, 05:16:27 pm
Please do not vote for the ASAF-F44 it is doing the exact same horrible thing of trying to do too many things all at once. - it does less things than the F43 and these things are less ambitious and it's an improvement of an existing design instead of trying to break into an area we've never done before.
New Thrust Type - building on existing thrust type from the F43
New reactor - this isn't new and reading it would reveal that. The reactor is just the name of the place where the Aethergems go
New aerodynamics - false and irrelevant
New Gun - "upscale an existing gun by a bit" != new gun
New Communications wired "communications" that are extraordinarily simple and easy to do.
Heavy Armor - also false. The reactor has a bit heavier armor than the rest of the craft but other than that armor is unchanged.
We will get like -2 to the rolls.
But we did way more with the F43 and that stuff was never done before and we just got a -1. The F44 is building off of the F43 and does less than the F43.
Post by: helmacon on July 20, 2017, 05:21:16 pm
We need to fix our broken stuff guys, not be makeing new stuff.
If they developed their new anti magic in a revision, we ought to be able to counter it in one. Shielded circuits is a very reasonable revision. Think of it like emp hardened stuff irl
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 20, 2017, 05:54:28 pm
Quote from: Designs
3 - ASAF-F44 Avenger (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7514878#msg7514878): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, helmacon
1 - Vigilant Sky Cutter (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7514913#msg7514913): Lightforger
1 Mage-Slayers: RAM
2 - Antimagic Shielding (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7515147#msg7515147): Kadzar, RAM
1 Living Spell: The Watcher of Worlds: RAM
Its working nickname shall be the "Avenger."
Because it uses UFO-like propulsion and is a new design meant to defeat the enemy at their own game.
Is good name.
Post by: Draignean on July 20, 2017, 06:05:01 pm
I don't like the fact that both the Link gems and the propulsion system both seem revision worthy in their own right.
Quote
The rest of the F44 is an incremental but serious improvement to the F43.
...
Fresh, frozen.
Light, yet filling.
Virtually spotless.
Still. Helmacon has a point. We can't afford to have the F43, much as I dislike it, to remain the completely unusable shitshow that it currently is. Maybe, MAYBE, we'll get lucky and it'll get a great roll and the 'Avenger' will get off the ground and work well enough to not be idiotic, and maybe we won't roll shit on our revision to anti-magic, and maybe we can put an end to this sudden blitz.
I'm not willing to stake on that maybe.
I'm backing anti-magic shielding. However, if there isn't a thruster revision for the revision phase, I will propose one, and I'll support most reasonable revisions aimed at gateway improvements to an F44.
Quote from: Designs
3 - ASAF-F44 Avenger (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7514878#msg7514878): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, helmacon
1 - Vigilant Sky Cutter (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7514913#msg7514913): Lightforger
1 Mage-Slayers: RAM
3 - Antimagic Shielding (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7515147#msg7515147): Kadzar, RAM, Draignean
1 Living Spell: The Watcher of Worlds: RAM
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 20, 2017, 06:17:27 pm
We lost before they upgraded anti-magic resistance and we'll continue losing afterwards if we just waste our design on it. There's only so much we can do with a revision, and Moskurg is getting a design to actually use to further their own goals.
So if we do the anti-magic revision and it fails, that means we'll still have the F44 to deploy as soon as we get anti-magic resistance. Hell, the F44 could still conceivably useful as their anti-magic has to be consciously targeted and a working F44 could just stay out of those zones. Not nearly as useful as it could be, but still useful.
If we do the anti-magic design and it fails OR works, that means we'll lose as we can't hope to possibly change the tide of battle with one revision.
Post by: RAM on July 20, 2017, 06:26:09 pm
We need to fix our broken stuff guys, not be makeing new stuff.We need to address the antimagic. I agree with improving broken stuff in theory, but this is terrible terrible broken stuff. We are throwing a flying machine when they have complete control of the weather and a massive air force. It is doomed twice-over under weight of numbers and environment. Not to mention that its control methods are mysterious and don't really make sense as to how someone can control it when they are not the source of the magic holding it aloft. There is "shoring up your investments" and "sunk cost fallacy". Just because this disaster was supported once, and utterly failed to meet any single one of its design goals, nor even make appreciable progress in the relevant fields, doesn't mean that we should continue to attempt to build a design that is a convenient revision away from being hard-countered. They could revise their wind to flip it upside down, or revise their lightning to cause thermal expansion and blow them up, or revise their tornadoes into gank-teams that shake the thing until the contents are mashed, or revise their ballistae to shoot heavy nets, or revise their mind-reading spell to distract people a little while they are trying to control the minor incarnation of pure chaos that is keeping them from flipping over and falling to their death. Or they could just use the large metal bolt that they already have, with the lucky strike that they already have, to hit the misguided coffin and throw off its balance, once again, causing it to plummet to its doom. Maybe, MAYBE, if the propulsion actually works this time, it might be stable enough to withstand a little turbulence, and hit anything, ever, because 4 thrusts per second is way too messy to aim from, or to survive your head being jostled that much... but with no specific mention of the propulsion being prioritised we can just expect a repeat of the previous turn, until we roll a 5 or something, whatever doesn't count as a "bad roll" to people who don't understand dice.
If they developed their new anti magic in a revision, we ought to be able to counter it in one.
Currently, our cannons do not work. We need to get our cannons working. That is how we stop making new things and start fixing what we already have.
As for a revision beating a revision? If that were true then this game would be pointless. The actual content of the revision matters. The Keggers revised their antimagic to be useable from their airships, probably by allowing them to specifically mould its shape around sensitive materials. They were already doing things like that ages ago. What we want from a revision is to go from having no defense at all against their antimagic aside from allowing crystals to persist(not be summoned, just persist) in the presence of antimagic, a feat that they could always perform within our own antimagic(which is the large part of how their antimagic is cheathax). Now, instead of hard-countering their antimagic towards one, single material, once it is already in a largely mundane state, we want all of our active magical effects, such as the explosion spells that need to be constantly resummoned over and over again with no mundane fuel or intake in complete contravention of all that is mundane, to be universally functional while within and antimagic field.
Their revision: Change the shape of one friendly spell. This has already been done in more-or less the same way(When they made the clouds bigger), it just needs to be better.
Our revision: Immunity for all of our equipment to a hostile spell. This has already been done in an extremely specific scenario that only affected the entity itself in a specific state when it was basically inert, and the process was mostly centred upon making it inert, now we want it to radiate a field of complete immunity to everything around it in complete contravention to any properties previously displayed in this field. Even our antimagic charms were completely transparent to their antimagic fields but now we are supposed to turn our antimagic-transparent crystals into antimagic conduits without removing their antimagic resistance somehow.
Their revision: Change the shape of one friendly spell.
Our revision: Immunity for all of our equipment to a hostile spell.
Not all revisions are equal.
We need to fix our broken cannons, not be fooling around with ridiculous flying contraptions.
The thing is, anti-magic resistance in a design will just put as back at square 1.Or we could do the living spell and actually get some theoretical toys to play with that would support our other designs. Like flight computers to stabilise the floating coffin or autoaiming for our cannons.
'Or we could do the mage-slayers and defeat antimagic by killing all the mages that try to use it. A "beat antimagic" design does not have to be purely that with no progress. A revision, on the other hand, pretty much does, has a greatly reduced scope over what it can protect, and can roll badly and just fail with us having no recourse to fix it.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 20, 2017, 07:28:57 pm
Then there's the fact that it has a puny gun, and how it's literally a flying bomb, and much much more. The F43 will take far too many revisions to be directly practical.
'Or we could do the mage-slayers and defeat antimagic by killing all the mages that try to use it. A "beat antimagic" design does not have to be purely that with no progress. A revision, on the other hand, pretty much does, has a greatly reduced scope over what it can protect, and can roll badly and just fail with us having no recourse to fix it.See, this is funny. You say that an AM-Resistance design doesn't have to just do anti-magic resistance, but...
1.) The current propsed AM-Resistance design does just do anti-magic resistance and nothing else. You may have had a point if it did do something else, but it doesn't.
2.) If you really believe that AM-Resistance is this super challenging design (it's not) then that means the design would have to be practically dedicated to it, no?
Chief, I was not a fan of the F43, and I see this as yet another stack on an overreaching shit sandwich that goes straight from 'broken as fuck hovercraft' to 'bestest air-superiority fighter that manages maneuverability that took real nations half a century'....he says, ignoring the fact that our artillery is on par with 20th century artillery and that we have internal combustion engines in the year 944.
Our advantages come from the fact that we can leverage our magic to make technology that won't be available for centuries. The F44 relies on this concept. Our cannons rely on this concept. Our engines rely on this concept.
Basically all of our designs rely on using magic to make technology seemingly far ahead of our time. It makes no sense to suddenly limit ourselves on real-world technology development now.
Post by: helmacon on July 20, 2017, 07:38:11 pm
Post by: Draignean on July 20, 2017, 07:55:43 pm
Chief, I was not a fan of the F43, and I see this as yet another stack on an overreaching shit sandwich that goes straight from 'broken as fuck hovercraft' to 'bestest air-superiority fighter that manages maneuverability that took real nations half a century'....he says, ignoring the fact that our artillery is on par with 20th century artillery and that we have internal combustion engines in the year 944.
Our advantages come from the fact that we can leverage our magic to make technology that won't be available for centuries. The F44 relies on this concept. Our cannons rely on this concept. Our engines rely on this concept.
Basically all of our designs rely on using magic to make technology seemingly far ahead of our time. It makes no sense to suddenly limit ourselves on real-world technology development now.
Damn, I forgot all our cannons were made in two designs after the first one rolled a one for efficacy. You sure showed me with that completely salient point!
Less sarcastically: Magic should not be a way to wish away logic. Maybe you'd like to use it that way, I fear pushing for increasingly stupid amounts of instant progress is going to be the death of us.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 20, 2017, 08:06:35 pm
That and a joystick probably wouldn't be the best idea since the F44 ideally would have full freedom of movement in any direction and rotation in any direction at the same time.
Gwolfski asked on Discord to be added to the vote for the F44, so I am doing that.
Quote from: Designs
4 - ASAF-F44 Avenger (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7514878#msg7514878): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, helmacon, Gwolfski
1 - Vigilant Sky Cutter (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7514913#msg7514913): Lightforger
1 Mage-Slayers: RAM
3 - Antimagic Shielding (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7515147#msg7515147): Kadzar, RAM, Draignean
1 Living Spell: The Watcher of Worlds: RAM
@Draignean: Yes, magic should not be a way to wish away logic. And we're not doing that. The KPD does not "wish away logic". It uses established magic to create the desired effect. We already have mastery with the Blastball - the idea is to use that mastery to achieve flight. Go from "making unfocused explosions" to "applying force" isn't easy of course, but not all designs should be easy.
And the story behind cannons seems to be pretty applicable here. I'd like to point out that the HC1, our first cannon, was envisioned as an Extreme-range weapon.
We got a Medium-range weapon.
Then we got stuff like this.
Okay, we got a cannon now.
And it's (once again) apparently useless.
It has the same range as our wizards and longbows, requires a wizard, and is less deadly than a wizard.
Well, maybe not entirely useless. I hope it has a greater fire rate, but that's it's only benefit. Oh, and maybe magic resistance.
Anyway, our problem was that the enemy engaged at long range, and our cannon has not at all solved that.
Revision : Long range fireballs
Upgrade our fireball spell to attack the enemy at long range.
Moskurg introduced an entirely new field of the war - artillery - with their ballistae. Then we tried to directly beat them in their own game by using our advantages against them with the cannon - a weapon we've never tried before that would only be useful centuries in the future.
The cannon wasn't immediately useful and some tried to convince others to not invest in it because of this. But eventually, because of the nature of our technology and that we kept on working on it, we completely beat Moskurg at their own game and almost won the game because of artillery.
Post by: RAM on July 20, 2017, 09:08:55 pm
I do want to do flight computers + auto-aiming (Mindgems) at some point but definitely not now. But using them as a possible solution for the F43 is just a bad idea. As omnipotent as a pilot could be, it won't fix the inherent issues with the F43's propulsion.I am proposing living spells as a solution for one of the flying machine's many problems. Mainly that of the pilot being ill-equipped to adapt to wind. It would also need to vibrate less. Our existing light cannon is sufficient for penetration at the ranges and angles that an aircraft could achieve. If it is not sufficient then there is no point in getting an aircraft as we can get the same ranges and angles from the ground using larger cannons and still have a cheaper result. We could work on the armament later if it becomes a problem, but at present it is a nonissue and the proposed solution of increasing the calibre is untested and may well not achieve an appreciable change even if it were required. It will only explode if it is shaken too hard or penetrated. It will continue to explode if shaken too hard so long as it doesn't have shock-absorbers and penetration is yet to demonstrate itself as a problem. Armouring the bomb would be desirable, but the thing doesn't fly yet. There is no point to armouring the bomb when it will still explode if it dive into the ground, and it will dive into the ground at the slightest urging. Living spells would have been grand if they had been accepted as our antimagic solution ages back when I first suggested them as such. They would still be a grand solution now. They would also serve for a great many automation tasks, such as automatically maintaining the stability of a floating coffin that would otherwise take the slightest breeze as an invitation to flip upside-down and forcefully pound its jellied contents into the dirt before exploding.
Then there's the fact that it has a puny gun, and how it's literally a flying bomb, and much much more. The F43 will take far too many revisions to be directly practical.
Living spells are a field which could grant a great many advantages, one of which is being a solution to one of the many problems that plague our hypothetical flying machine. It would also need competent propulsion. And to be used against a different enemy.
We have three antimagic resistance designs. Can you admit that you are wrong?'Or we could do the mage-slayers and defeat antimagic by killing all the mages that try to use it. A "beat antimagic" design does not have to be purely that with no progress. A revision, on the other hand, pretty much does, has a greatly reduced scope over what it can protect, and can roll badly and just fail with us having no recourse to fix it.See, this is funny. You say that an AM-Resistance design doesn't have to just do anti-magic resistance, but...
1.) The current propsed AM-Resistance design does just do anti-magic resistance and nothing else. You may have had a point if it did do something else, but it doesn't.
2.) If you really believe that AM-Resistance is this super challenging design (it's not) then that means the design would have to be practically dedicated to it, no?
One of which resists antimagic by killing the mages that are casting it. It adds a discipline of homing projectiles.
One of which resists antimagic by summoning a pure-magic creature that fights the antimagic. It adds a discipline of spells with independent agency.
One of which is a cage to adopt into our current designs. that does little else. I agree that it is unambitious but then again, it is necessary to deal with antimagic right now, perhaps unambitious is necessary.
My problem with antimagic resistance is primarily directed towards the concept of it as a "revision" while you state that I object to it as a "super challenging design", with emphasis on the "design" part, which seems wholly inaccurate as an assessment of my position. Can you admit that you are wrong?
Or perhaps, as you stated earlier, you believe that revisions can be more reliable than designs for achieving identical proposals. I believe that it is a considerable design, but not so much that we can't get creative with its implementation and get minor side-benefits by being clever. as a revision, of course, it will get an inferior implementation if it works at all, and if it doesn't work then we spend the next turn losing everywhere and are defending deep in our home territory with no naval support...
And because all of our designs rely on magic we need to get antimagic resistance working more than anything else. But more to the point, magic is good at doing the impossible. But it tends to have difficulties with mass distribution. World Wars were primarily logistical, they are a truly terrible thing to base our forces upon. We have a scattering of 80mm guns after massive investments in logistics, Meanwhile we can blast their entire army with fireballs by making them really big. You want to make a fighter-plane to fight their airforce. You are limiting yourself to real-world technology. We should be trying to unleash doom-magic to destabilise the air-theatre so that nobody can use it. Limiting ourselves to war-machines is just pathetic. I just don't see how you can campaign so hard for internal combustion engines and artillery and then tell other people to divorce themselves from mundane considerations. Would you be willing to solidify your position on this topic? I mean, honestly, you call the thing the F## interceptor. You literally used U.S.A. fighter designations and named it "interceptor" after the technical term for the role that you want it to perform in modern militaries. But then apparently putting on a magical rocket-motor that works as a film instead of a tube makes it not consistent with "limit ourselves to real-world technology" while saying that "pushing our explosions from discreet undisciplined explosion into a constant unidirectional shaped force film might be difficult" is somehow completely binding ourselves to conventional sensibilities.Chief, I was not a fan of the F43, and I see this as yet another stack on an overreaching shit sandwich that goes straight from 'broken as fuck hovercraft' to 'bestest air-superiority fighter that manages maneuverability that took real nations half a century'....he says, ignoring the fact that our artillery is on par with 20th century artillery and that we have internal combustion engines in the year 944.
Our advantages come from the fact that we can leverage our magic to make technology that won't be available for centuries. The F44 relies on this concept. Our cannons rely on this concept. Our engines rely on this concept.
Basically all of our designs rely on using magic to make technology seemingly far ahead of our time. It makes no sense to suddenly limit ourselves on real-world technology development now.
We have crystalclads that float, weight and mobility is a nonissue. We have protectors that are built for heft and volume, not agility. We have falcons and wasps? We have no experience at all with flying machines. You want to defeat Moskurg with flying machines, the thing that they have been doing for, well, they developed it from wind magic apparently... Which has been around for a while, and those carpets are not exactly new. Perhaps, maybe, just maybe...
We don't want to go head-to-head against Moskurg in the one thing they've been truly specializing in for practically the whole game. It'd be like if Moskurg suddenly tried making better cannons than us instead of building on their own advantages.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 20, 2017, 09:12:54 pm
The F43.
Post by: helmacon on July 20, 2017, 09:17:15 pm
4 anti magic designs actually. Personaly, I think the S.A.F.E. System us superior to the current proposals, and skills be what we do if we do anti magic as a design.
However, I don't think we should do anti magic as a design. We beat them in infantry, we beat them in artillery, the only place they win is in the air. Even when they didn't have their anti magic shutting our stuff down, they were winning with only the air stuff. We need an answer, and ash air force will help us at sea as well.
Post by: RAM on July 20, 2017, 09:19:32 pm
We actually have experience in flying machines, RAM.Machines that do not fly are not flying machines.
The F43.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 20, 2017, 09:19:57 pm
It just explodes seconds after flying.
You know the idea that you learn more from your failures?
Post by: Light forger on July 20, 2017, 09:50:17 pm
Design: ASAF-F43 Interceptor [1-1, 2+1+1, 4]We got,
The F43 is Arstotzka's first attempt to get a man into the air.
The method of flight is via a very precise PSF-C propulsion method; attempts to create an "on-going explosion" didn't quite pan out, but it is possible to instead fire off a PSF-C four times a second to create a similar effect. This is referred to proudly as the Kinetic Propulsion Drive.
The craft relies entirely on AAA-level Aethergems (also referred to as "AAAethergems") in order to cut costs. Because it takes ten AAAethergems to create a single PSF-C, the craft is made up almost entirely of them. In order to prevent the craft from running out of power, this means it requires 2,400 AAAethergems to allow sections to fire off while others recharge. The timing of this massive (and I do mean truly massive) AAAethergem array is controlled via a set of complicated copper circuit controls, which are then linked to the command station in the cockpit and a set of igniters on the bottom of the craft. The igniters generate the PSF-C's against the bottom hull of the aircraft in a wide, even distribution in order to generate lift. The controls consist of two freely-rotating crystal orbs containing yet two more AAAethergems, allowing the pilot to control the rotation and thrust of the propulsion unit.
The pilots station is covered in a two-part crystal shell, one part of which slides forward to allow the pilot to exit. Behind the pilot is a sizable crystal sphere in which the gunner sits. The sphere has sections cut out to allow the gunner to enter and exit via the pilots hatch when the turret is straightened. The rotation of the turret is controlled physically by the gunner, using his feet and hands to brace against the craft and forcibly turn the sphere. A single HAC-1 pokes out of the sphere, off-set to one side to make room for the gunner. We were unable to develop a 20 mm variant in time, but the HAC-1 works just fine. It is fixed in the bubble, again requiring the gunner to physically turn the entire sphere to aim. Loading is done by hand, and precise aiming is difficult. The crystal glass is made of layered crystal to help prevent lightning strikes from killing the occupants, and should be thick enough to prevent bolts from penetrating easily - if at all. Nickel cooling circuits zig-zag across the crystal canopies to keep the cabin a comfortable 21.1°C for both the pilot and gunner. There is no crystal armoring elsewhere, however, as the weight of the craft is already so high there are doubts it can lift itself at all. Regardless, a bomb bay in the center of the craft houses three Explosive Artillery Shells, droppable via a mechanical switch in the pilots station.
The first demonstration is overseen by the King, who is excited to see how his Expense Bonus is being spent. Ram and Waffles are attending, taking a brief vacation from their honeymoon to oversee the maiden voyage of the F43.
Piloting the F43 are a pair of highly-trained and trusted wizards who helped oversee the construction and development of the craft. They flash a thumbs-up to the watching crowd and prepare for lift-off. The launchpad is cleared and on command the wizards fire up the F43.
Immediately obvious is how heavy the craft is. At 2,400 AAAethergems, the F43 is the size of a small boat. The PSF-C's fire off rapidly, but the explosions can barely lift the craft more than a couple feet before the ground-effect ceases to provide additional thrust. The two wizards inside are shaken about as the craft vibrates at four shakes per second, and the entire thing begins to slip laterally. The pilot, in an attempt to correct the unexpected lateral drift, over-corrects the craft and sends it careening towards the crowd. He corrects his mistake at the last minute, this time over-correcting it in the other direction and sending it skipping into the ground. The edge of the craft digs into the dirt and the entire thing flips over.
Luckily, 2,399 of the AAAethergems manage to survive the sudden impact. The 2,400th AAAethergem sustains a bit more force than the others, however, and promptly detonates. This explosion ripples to the neighboring AAAethergem, which likewise explodes, which detonates its neighbors. In the span of a half-second the entire F43 explodes in a violent but spectacular chain-reaction of fireworks, raining bits of twisted metal and crystal on the horrified crowd. Thankfully, no one is hurt save for the two exploded wizards in the F43 and dozens and dozens of maimed bystanders and a stray dog who happened to be nearby during the event.
The King is, quite frankly, disappointed by the crafts..."lackluster" performance.
Until the serious control, stability, propulsion, and thrust-to-weight issues are solved, the F43 is unusable and little more than a frightening proof-of-concept.
Surprisingly, the F43 is merely Expensive.
- Some knowledge in linking a crap ton of aethergems together
- Some knowledge in using PSF as a propulsion system
- Crystal cockpits
- An unpowered ball turret
- Some climate control
Stability, the craft is utterly uncontrollable
A powered turret they are using fast moving aircraft an unpowered ball turret isn't going to cut it.
A decent powerplant unless the KSP is 2-3x more efficient then our current PSF we are going to have weight issues
Armor the craft is literally made from explosives and is completely unarmored except for the cockpit/turret. Which unless we want it to explode the moment it get hit which means we will need to add more weight
Also vibration issues, the craft was shaking a lot already and once you add more power your going to need to add in more supports which means yet more weight.
We simply don't have a power source strong enough to do this type of craft at the moment. Which is why I want to use a faux lighter then air craft. No only should it's lift engine be more efficient but, thanks to magic we can remove the issue with mundane airships. Further more we can bake in what we learned from the F43 into our later designs easily so it's not wasted.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 20, 2017, 09:59:07 pm
Power Generation
1.) We already doubled the power output of Aethergems.
2.) We can use A-size (or AA) Aethergems instead of AAAethergems, increasing power output even more thanks to the Expense Credit and the Aethergem revision.
3.) Something I've made very clear in the F44 proposal is that an intentional side-effect of the improved KPD is significantly greater energy efficiency as instead of just constantly detonating PSF-Cs beneath the craft we're just applying precise forces where they're needed. If efficiency isn't increased, then that means we got a low enough roll that there's no hope for the design anyways.
Propulsion - This is the first time we've used Blastballs as actual propulsion. We can use what we've learned here in the effects of Blastballs and their practicality in propelling a craft combined with our literal mastery of Blastballs to create something much better. The F43 suffers from stability issues because it's just powering itself via tons of explosions beneath it. We're using our experience in applying Blastballs as propulsion to make something much better.
Armor - Due to the greatly reduced number of Aethergems in the F44 we'll be able to armor the stuff. Crystal is already pretty light and we've already cut the weight of the F43 in half. Again, read the F44 design.
Weight - Weight is no longer a problem since we upgraded Aethergems. See Power GEneration as well.
Turret - "An unpowered ball turret isn't going to cut it." But we're not going to develop a powered guided turret here because that's out of scope. Maybe later, but you have literally zero basis for this assumption that an unpowered turret is going to cut it. The AS-HAC-1 is already great at hitting their vehicles and is unpowered as well. Its only problem is that it can't pierce the armor.
Vibration Issues - No, we do not need to add supports or the like. Vibration issues come from the crude PSF-C propulsion, which will no longer be done.
Stability - See above. Stability comes from the propulsion method.
Post by: Light forger on July 20, 2017, 10:15:34 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 20, 2017, 10:46:28 pm
The flaw is a horrendously energy-hungry engine.
You know the HA1, right? And how it takes three mages to fire one shot? This is because the HA1 uses three PSF-Cs to fire its projectile.
And now take the KPD Mk. 1 present in the F43. It casts 4x PSF-Cs every single second. That is extremely inefficient. Luckily for us, the ideal KPD doesn't use PSF-Cs. It uses its own "spell" to work. And since we're making this spell from the start, we'll have more control over it.
Right now the KPD is like if you tried to make a rocket that worked by shooting missiles right under it to "fly". This is not energy efficient. The blasts go out in all directions, take lots of ammunition/supply (and in our case, power), and just generally don't help.
But with the Mk. 2 aimed at with the F44, this will hopefully no longer be the case. We'll build off of our experience with attempting to use Blastball-based continuous propulsion to make something much better at its job. Instead of just blowing something up in all directions beneath our craft, we just apply the right amount of force needed.
Also no. The aircraft couldn't get off the ground before the Aethergem revision.
For free, we upgrade the AAAethergems in the F43 to this newer variant and cut the required gems down to 1,200. This decreases the weight of the craft, but it still suffers from stability, control, and vibration issues and is still unusable at the moment.The problems are stability, control, and vibration. Note how he says "still suffers from stability, control, and vibration." Because we eliminated weight as a (serious) problem, but still had other issues preventing practical flight.
All caused by the current "spam explosions and hope it works" KPD.
Post by: RAM on July 21, 2017, 12:34:04 am
Power Generation1: That was in a revision, the design itself did not achieve anything, and that development did nothing for the design. It might be a little easier now but it still fundamentally fails to prioritise what is important to actually having a functional design(stable propulsion) and a better generator won't change that.
1.) We already doubled the power output of Aethergems.
2.) We can use A-size (or AA) Aethergems instead of AAAethergems, increasing power output even more thanks to the Expense Credit and the Aethergem revision.
3.) Something I've made very clear in the F44 proposal is that an intentional side-effect of the improved KPD is significantly greater energy efficiency as instead of just constantly detonating PSF-Cs beneath the craft we're just applying precise forces where they're needed. If efficiency isn't increased, then that means we got a low enough roll that there's no hope for the design anyways.
2: The expense credit makes things cheaper, not smaller or more powerful. The D-cells might work, but they might be too large to fit, and I suspect that they are still inferior to the AAA-cells in terms of power generation compared to volume as the larger ones started at a MASSIVE level of inefficiency in that regard. So it is possible that they might be cheaper, but they will not be any more likely to get the thing off of the ground. The revision, on the other hand, might help, but again, it is just a weight saving. The craft currently doesn't have a working engine, so no amount of reducing weight will get it off of the ground using existing technology. So please recant the "the Expense Credit and " portion of the statement.
3: Yet another example of going out of ones way to make a design worse. The focus is to get the thing working and to get it stable. We made precisely zero progress towards the propulsion system. We had small frequent explosions before and we have small frequent explosions now. ABSOLUTELY ZERO PROGRESS HAS BEEN MADE TOWARDS PROPULSION! If e want to avoid the risk that we could be at this same design forever then we need some explicit prioritisation of getting the propulsion itself to work and be stable. Not that we want this design to work, it is hopelessly outmatched given the circumstances, but if we did then we would need to prioritise what is important to make it work. You shoot the design in the foot by saying that it should make it a priority to be more efficient, as though power-generation were the primary obstacle to getting something to fly when all it can do is flip upside down and explode. You can feel free to mention that "hey, since it is only pushing into one direction, rather that exploding in all directions, it ought to be more efficient, right? As in: pointing out a side effect that would give us a free bonus for being clever. But asking them to make it a specific priority when you make no mention at all of the importance of actually doing the thing that we COMPLETELY failed to do last time that we tried this exact same thing is a mistake. Just repeating the same flawed project over and over again, hoping to roll well...
This is an ongoing problem with these designs. They keep telling the G.M. exactly how effective everything should be. That is what dice are for. we can try explaining why things might work really well, explaining why the design seems to be clever and easy, but saying that "yes this is definitely a SUPER-DUPER-MASSIVE-TOTHEEXTREME!!! improvement to our SUPERAWESOME magic!!!$$$!!!" is not going to play out well. It just isn't our place to decide the effectiveness of things. If power efficiency is difficult then spending all our time on that might get us a penalty and doom the project. Saying "this is really good because it ought focus the force more efficiently and be super-stable because it pushes constantly and only in the direction that we want, so it is REALLY important that we get it working, even if it means ending up with a janky prototype that isn't efficient at all and don't have time enough to install it onto a vehicle" Would be much more productive, because it would prioritise what is important, rather than desperately trying to save face by insisting that it work to specification or not work at all.
Propulsion - This is the first time we've used Blastballs as actual propulsion.Wrong. We have been using it to propel bullets and pistons and already knew all we needed to about using them to flip stuff over. We made zero progress on this front. The design was a complete failure at progressing propulsion magic.
our literal mastery of BlastballsWe have, like, two spells. Yeah, we have done lots with fireballs, but this is the edge of that. fireballs go to a place and explode into a ball of flame. We took out theflame, it was pretty simple. Now the design is looking to A: reshape the explosion to apply in only one direction. We have zero experience shaping the blasts, far less refining them down to a single controlled vector. B: a constant effect. We have only ever made discrete explosions, channelled fog might help here, but it is from conjuration and this is force magic derived from thermal magic, it is a big cross-discipline trek. C: conforming it to a surface. Again, zero experience, at best webs attach to surfaces. D: being a manifest magical field. This is a bit esoteric and maybe even semantic, but there is a definite concern here that we are trying to make a purely magical substance with a physical presence. Volume with no mass, as it were. Probably consistent with fireball's fire, but still a concern. This is a completely unprecedented application of magic and the design foolishly treats it as an assumption, even after we clearly failed to get it once.
Weight - Weight is no longer a problem since we upgraded Aethergems. See Power GEneration as well.Weight only makes the difference between good and bad, at the moment it is doubtful that it will be at all, even if we do have the misfortune of voting to use an airforce against the sky itself and a loitering armada.
Turret - "An unpowered ball turret isn't going to cut it." But we're not going to develop a powered guided turret here because that's out of scope. Maybe later, but you have literally zero basis for this assumption that an unpowered turret is going to cut it. The AS-HAC-1 is already great at hitting their vehicles and is unpowered as well. Its only problem is that it can't pierce the armor.A light turret would leave the operator exposed to lightning and ballistae. A heavy turret would be unworkable. If the force-film actually works then it might, potentially, be usable on little tabs to rotate the turret. If the design is more than "get this propulsion to work, and maybe stick it on a chassis while at it" then it will probably fail. If it succeeds then we will have a nice target for the enemy that completely controls the sky, and can develop it further to have a nice target with some shiny bells and whistles for the enemy that completely controls the sky. Without the propulsion it is nothing, and we have already seen, last turn, conclusively, that the propulsion is in doubt, because we literally tried to do the propulsions and it literally did not happen and there was literally zero mention of learning anything about propulsion from the disaster.
Vibration Issues - No, we do not need to add supports or the like. Vibration issues come from the crude PSF-C propulsion, which will no longer be done.Clearly the tornadoes, squalls, lightning, ballistae bolts, and rough landings will not cause any vibration. Certainly, I could believe that they would have to be in trouble before exploding, but it would still be nice to have some insurance. Not that we would need any insurance if we just gave up on the project completely.
Stability - See above. Stability comes from the propulsion method.The propulsion method is just pushing. What precise mechanism does the propulsion use to ensure stability? As near as I can tell it is basically a constant unidirectional force applied to all downward surfaces. There is no part of that that actually corrects a tilt, meaning that the pilot has to do so manually, in the middle of a storm, with whirlwinds... And if it flips far enough then they lose any way to right it si it just plunges to its explodey doom. Yes, it would gain much stability as a firing platform, but as a vehicle it would gain almost none. And they would be trying to shoot while being constantly jostled while being shot at by lucky strikes.
But hey, if we are so desperate to throw away our design, lets at least have some hope...
S.M.-944 "Steeple Belle" Sky Hunter
This is shaped like an upside-down full-helm with a short stump of an inverse-topped umbrella sticking out of it.
We spend a great deal of time on the propulsion, based upon the observed pulse of force around an explosion. We focus on extracting and maintaining this pulse until we can go from a spherical explosion into a thin film of perpetual pushing, or "force film". Essentially, we end up with the surface of a wedge-section of explosion that is flattened out and perpetuated for as long as needed. We hope to have it generated to instantly coat a surface and continue to push directly against that surface for as long as it is active. Given the extreme focus and consistency of this effect, it is hoped that it will be abundantly stable and efficient. Converting this to circuitry ought to be fairly familiar territory so we hope to be able to produce a design incorporating it.
The design has a large
The pilot is mounted in a bulbous section at the bottom, laying down on their stomach after having strapped themselves onto the "bed" using leather straps through designated holes. They are slightly inclined to ease looking forwards and have a rotating mounting with a small hand-mirror to aid in observation through the transparent lower-section of the vehicle, which they enter feet-first. it is operated by moving a lever towards a direction to reduce power in that direction while continuing to push away from the opposing direction. There is also a lever to increase or reduce overall power to the force film(with a clear label as to the point at which firing the cannon becomes impossible, we hope to institute a separate generator and storage system for our magical supplies so that the cannon can store power separately and continue to fire past this point, just at a lower rate, but at present the force film sadly consumes the storage before charge enough for the cannon can be accumulated) and one for the rotational controls.
There is a forward-mounted gunner with a hack-uno permanently mounted on a ring at its centre-of-gravity. It can relatively easily be rotated over about 40 degrees although looking down the sights can be difficult at extreme angles. The gunner wears stuffing in their ear for the entire duration, which is fine given that nobody could ever hope to hear anything in the conditions that they will be dying through. Communications with the pilot are achieved through strings linked to tabs, that mark directions and alerts. Such as "Kegger left" "opportunity up" "collision behind" just by pulling their own tabs. The back is consumed by a large bank of universal magical sources(U.M.S.).
The whole thing is armoured evenly with transparent crystal where the crew are. Visibility out the back and top are minimal, but we hope to refine that in later versions. We plan to keep the armour light enough that it can exceed the altitude of any kegger design, but failing that we will attempt to armour it enough to withstand a ballistae bolt at close range, if it can hold such weight aloft. Of course, all of this is dependant upon getting the propulsion magic working, without that the design would be useless anyway.
There! Looks ugly but actually works, as much as the ridiculous notion of building a flying machine in the current situation could hope to, which equates to "a complete failure, but better than some others". Antimagic is still the hugely more important priority.
The flaw is not a weak power plant.I find it difficult to believe that you do not understand that what you are saying is ridiculous. Our biggest guns fire very small projectiles along very concentrated tubes and they only need to move, Their orientation is handled automatically by their motion. That the unmentionable disaster could get aloft and maintain its orientation(well, it did neither of those things, but its pitiful efforts were adorable in their own way) with such ridiculously low power requirements is, quite frankly, wrong! I suspect that it had numerous such engines and was still ridiculously efficient.
The flaw is a horrendously energy-hungry engine.
You know the HA1, right? And how it takes three mages to fire one shot? This is because the HA1 uses three PSF-Cs to fire its projectile.
And now take the KPD Mk. 1 present in the F43. It casts 4x PSF-Cs every single second. That is extremely inefficient. Luckily for us, the ideal KPD doesn't use PSF-Cs. It uses its own "spell" to work. And since we're making this spell from the start, we'll have more control over it.
Post by: Draignean on July 21, 2017, 12:40:20 am
If he's right, we get to shrug our shoulders and have a great little ship. If he's wrong, then we get a nice healthy I-told-you-so and can work on our own line of differently insane technology.
Let it be.
Post by: andrea on July 21, 2017, 12:40:43 am
Quote from: Designs
5 - ASAF-F44 Avenger (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7514878#msg7514878): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, helmacon, Gwolfski, Andrea
1 - Vigilant Sky Cutter (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7514913#msg7514913): Lightforger
1 Mage-Slayers: RAM
3 - Antimagic Shielding (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7515147#msg7515147): Kadzar, RAM, Draignean
1 Living Spell: The Watcher of Worlds: RAM
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 21, 2017, 12:46:04 am
You'll all regret this!
Post by: helmacon on July 21, 2017, 01:32:17 am
Because people are stupid and can't even recognize genius when they see it, I've removed Linkgems from the F44.
You'll all regret this!
Can I get a joystick now? To further feed my genius hating fetish. Seriously, the current steering method is a sooo stupid.
Post by: Andres on July 21, 2017, 02:36:37 am
Quote from: Designs
6 - ASAF-F44 Avenger (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7514878#msg7514878): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, helmacon, Gwolfski, Andrea, AndresDeath to linkgems.
1 - Vigilant Sky Cutter (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7514913#msg7514913): Lightforger
1 Mage-Slayers: RAM
3 - Antimagic Shielding (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7515147#msg7515147): Kadzar, RAM, Draignean
1 Living Spell: The Watcher of Worlds: RAM
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on July 21, 2017, 04:32:18 am
RAM, we've made our points. There's no point in going further, and quite frankly it makes reading this thread absolutely painful.Uerg. They are wrong, like, four times in five, and we always go right back down the same "Let's get this great [insert anachronism] with five different [over-emphasised assertion of ideal outcome] features!" line. And keep ending up with things that don't even resemble the original proposal.
If he's right, we get to shrug our shoulders and have a great little ship. If he's wrong, then we get a nice healthy I-told-you-so and can work on our own line of differently insane technology.
Let it be.
I do not want "I told you so". If I did I would be using them. I generally only bring them up in reference to new projects. But hey, since I have permission to make "I told you so"s...
I said to prioritise the propulsion system because the craft would be useless without it, when, sure enough, we don't prioritise the propulsion, and then the craft is useless because its propulsion system consists of shaking the whole thing horrifically at quarter-second intervals. If the propulsion had been prioritised then the promised "we can revise a flying armour in the revision" could have happened, or at least we would have gotten "you sort-of understand it now, so you can get a bonus to it later". Instead we got "you can do repeating explosions, guess what you have been using in your infernal disappointment engines? Oh yes, repeated explosions used to propel an object! So we got zero progress towards the project actually working, and completely failed to live up to our promise of giving people a flying armour in a revision? Yay!!!"...
No doubt protectors would have been unstoppable if they had their mobility fixed? I mean, we did get troops into battle, the enemy did keep their distance while the protectors were functioning. It all played out exactly as I said. They were good enough but the air forces need to be accounted for and the protectors are too slow, and will continue to be too slow as long as they are designed with impregnable armour and heavy weapons and passenger space in mind. Our troops have armour, they don't need protection, they need a fast, self-propelled antiaircraft gun to hunt down aircraft or heavier ammunition to push through enemy wind deflection(Which would have given us enough range to at least blunt this latest disaster...). Otherwise they will just loiter out of range and bombard us forever. That is exactly what they did. They had the freedom to choose not to engage until the protectors broke down, and many protectors did not break down, but moving our troops around just wasn't that important and the guns didn't have enough range and weren't fast enough.
Or hey, I said that taming wild birds would be really difficult, we should just stick to my original draft of giant monster vultures which, while much more well-0built then giant hawks, were still more plausible. I can't speak for how plausible the summoned vultures that we never got were, but I can say with confidence that finding hawks, taming them, and mutating them, when we had no experience except for a few spells that had "concerns living thing" in common and existing tame equines(which were not even mentioned, I mean, ugh, leave out the one single piece of relevant experience that we have...) was, indeed, ridiculously overambitious, and resulted in... normal hawks...
Or I could point out that the crystalworks was a ridiculous over-engineered nightmare of mundane technologies that were ridiculous given the time period and complete lack of magic involved in their construction, blatantly excessive expenditure of magical resources, and complete abandonment of everything that makes conjuration useful. Fortunately, the outcome had no resemblance at all to the proposal. Being a convenient template-based summoning spell instead of an assembly line ripped from archival footage because someone wanted to turn this into a world-war arms race, because apparently there aren't enough of those... And, of course, I wanted a different, more broad-purpose form of antimagic resistance, such as living spells that could resist the antimagic, and thus be applied anywhere, and thus would have prevented this whole issue from transpiring by giving us a general-purpose antimagic protection instead of a pure "it will only get our crystals working again and you had better go back and edit that original design proposal because twisting it to apply to anything other than conjurations is going to be ridiculous and the G.M. might just decide to go back and check on it to see if your "let's use our crystal's antimagic resistance on something other than crystals" revision is even slightly consistent with what was established.
Wow, "I told you so"s are so helpful! I told everyone that the propulsion needed to be a special priority, because without that we would have nothing. Especially not that flying armour revision that was promised... It is a good thing that we won't be doing exactly the same thing with exactly the same mistake again. I do hope that we don't get a bad, unfair roll, such as a three, and find that our design continues to stink so bad that we will inevitable vote for the great new idea to get a SUPER-EASY!!! antimagic revision bundled up along with all the fixes that the aircraft needs. And won't it be nice when we roll a 3 on our antimagic revision and, surprisingly enough, don't get competent antimagic. It is not as though we need that or anything...
And if anyone points out the glaring inconsistencies with past trends, G.M. statements, the designer's own words, common sense, and logic, then they get jumped on and have to start defending against accusations of making things up and a flat refusal to make any justification whatsoever for the vast majority of the assertions made against them, a healthy dose of logical fallacies or outright inaccuracies or weird edge-case interpretations of their statements, and basically zero action towards reasoned debate. And precisely zero admissions made concerning numerous proven errors. Like just now, that statement that we can't penetrate armour beyond short range. Unless I have missed a vehicle, that statement is demonstrably false. They have two heavily armoured vehicles. one can be penetrated at medium range and the other is a canoe, and thus only so armoured on the bottom. Given that th context is an aircraft, only armoured on the bottom means that either the aircraft can shoot it at a different angle, the aircraft can get close enough to shoot it at close range(and it is a canoe, you can shoot the people on top of it from a pretty generous angle, especially if they look over the sides to see their targets) or the aircraft just straight-up isn't doing what it should do.
Face it, we are never getting off of this nightmare line. People actually voted for the Titan of all things!?! How was that monstrosity ever going to be plausible? I mean, maybe, just maybe, hypothetical ridiculousness, it might have been possible to get something that big with numerous guns on it, and it didn't actually end up winning the vote thankfully. but the whole proposal? That thing was never going to pan out. Four sixes would have been dumbstruck if they got a third of it... When was the last time that a voted design actually met design goals? At this point we basically aren't playing anymore. We are just giving strong suggestions to evictedSaint as to what design to come up with for us. And they are good designs! Don't get me wrong, but it would be really nice to see us vote for something that could actually get into the game for a change. So, what to do if I can take this latest "I told you so" to the bank. *Sighs* Guess we will have to roll a three to find out...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 21, 2017, 04:48:20 am
You need to stop this.
All this accomplishes is polluting the thread further. Like Draignean said, people have made their points. If you must vent, please take it to PMs. But this is just too far.
EDIT:
Can I get a joystick now? To further feed my genius hating fetish. Seriously, the current steering method is a sooo stupid.
Never. Spheres are the control method of the future.
I've already made a design for a mobile computing device that uses exclusively spheres as input. You can't stop the future, helmacon!
Post by: Andres on July 21, 2017, 05:21:05 am
Fireball Projector
The FP1 is an artillery piece using that utilised our experience with circuitry and our mastery of Fireball to revolutionise artillery. The FP1 is essentially a large wand with a sufficient amount of circuitry and aethergems involved in its design.
Our HA1 fires shells which explode with the power of a PSF. The FP1, powered by its gems, instead uses the circuits of its design to cast PSFs. (Or rather, a modified version of PSF to match the range of blastshells.) This has the effect of creating an artillery piece with the same payload as a HA1 but with no moving parts, no propellant requirement (which means no recoil), no heavy shells or ammunition whatsoever, and no large barrel to ensure the projectile's accuracy.
The end result is a very simple device that does the same amount of damage as a HA1 per shot, except it's smaller, lighter, more reliable, more energy-efficient, more accurate, much more portable, easier to operate, easier to set up and pack away, less reliant on supply (all it takes is a single apprentice to operate one), needs less material to make, has a longer range, and is capable of fully-automatic fire if it has a sufficient amount of power running through it. It is better in every way to the HA1 and promises to usher in a new age of bombardment and small arms, an age littered with the blasted remains of Moskurg corpses.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: helmacon on July 21, 2017, 09:12:38 am
Post by: Kadzar on July 21, 2017, 03:10:05 pm
MOSKURG CAN NULLIFY OUR MAGIC WITH EASE!
It doesn't matter if the F44 rolls all 6's across the board, we are going to get slaughtered this turn if we don't have anything to stop their antimagic. We cannot afford to invest this turn building a wunderwaffe when all of our gear is currently broken. Even if the plane does manage to get off the ground (despite its problems and Moskurg antimagic), it alone can't make up for our entire neutered army.
I'd be willing to vote for any other anti-antimagic design that has significant support, but I can't support some design that ignores our present predicament because people are chasing a future fantasy.
Post by: andrea on July 21, 2017, 03:14:56 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on July 21, 2017, 03:15:14 pm
The F44 "Avenger" is Arstotzka's second attempt to put a man in the air.
The KPD Mk.2 is a rather ambitious affair. Our Mathemagicians analysis of the previous engine showed that an uncontained explosion beneath the craft does provide propulsion, but a large part of the expansion is lost around the edges of the craft. The blastballs work in our cannons because the muzzle forces the expansion in one direction to provide propulsion; because there's no "muzzle" on the F43 the energy was largely wasted.
We make some progress modifying the propulsion methods of our blastball, but making it directional is a bit tougher than we expected. It's easier to make the expansion constant, however, so we achieve some partial success on that front. Using the characteristics of our new blastball spell we can create an engine that generates lift. The KPD Mk.2 engine is essentially a crystal cup, into which a number of nickel circuits and copper scrollwork is integrated. We make liberal use of the conductive/non-conductive crystal to channel energy towards the base of the cup where the continuous blastball can be generated and directed outward. The intensity of the generation can be modulated to provide differing levels of thrust.
The KPD Mk. 2 is linked to the second major invention of this design; the Aether Reactor. Taking advantage of the double-up method of increasing magical energy generation, the Reactor is about the size of six adult men standing close together and uses D-level gems. It has a relatively high energy output for its weight, but it frequently burns through magegems and requires replacing. However, the smaller size of the reactor compared to the F43's power supply means we can afford to armor it with crystal.
The pilot and gunner cockputs are no longer linked as the reactor and KPD Mk.2 dominates the center of the craft. The pilot is still equipped with a set of rotating spherical controls, which adjust the angle of the KPD's output up to ten degrees. It's still sensitive to shifts in movement and center of gravity, and the pilot must focus very carefully to avoid going into an unrecoverable capsize. The gunner is still unpowered and uses an HAC-1.
The craft can reach high speeds, but acceleration is slow. It is shaped vaguely like an arrowhead, with the pilot at the front and center. The gunner has a field of fire that extends 360° around him, but only 5° down and 45° up. The F44 can drop a pair of Explosive HA1 artillery shells, but the mounts are unshielded and both must be dropped at the same time to keep weight balance. The craft can survive a ballista bolt in most places, but the reactor is sensitive to damage.
It can fly and shoot, but the power requirements makes it Very Expensive.
Post by: Kadzar on July 21, 2017, 03:31:21 pm
Revision: Antimagic Shielding
Moskurg Antimagic has been a thorn in our side for a long time, but now it's become unbearable. That's why our designers have devised a new type of crystal which protects our magic from antimagical interference. It works much like the mythical "Faraday Cage" of Arstotzkan legend, blocking out harmful Moskurg antimagic particles so that those inside are free to cast as much as they like. There's no guarantee that spells cast inside the shielding will be protected once they leave the barrier, but our mundane projectiles should at least still work perfectly fine, and our Protectors should now only be stopped by their faulty suspension.
Quote
1 - Antimagic Shielding (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516563#msg7516563): Kadzar
Post by: Draignean on July 21, 2017, 03:36:51 pm
Quote
2 - Antimagic Shielding (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516563#msg7516563): Kadzar, Draignean
Post by: helmacon on July 21, 2017, 04:21:45 pm
Quote3 - Antimagic Shielding (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516563#msg7516563): Kadzar, Draignean, Helmacon
Post by: andrea on July 21, 2017, 04:30:43 pm
Quote4 - Antimagic Shielding (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516563#msg7516563): Kadzar, Draignean, Helmacon, Andrea
Seems a bit ambitious to shield all our magic ( in a box) rather than just the circuits. Still, could be worth trying
Post by: helmacon on July 21, 2017, 04:44:47 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 21, 2017, 04:54:58 pm
Well, they're not going to be able to antimagic it out of the sky, unless it gets stupidly close to the enemy.
It does fly, right? High up?
Post by: andrea on July 21, 2017, 04:55:36 pm
Post by: RAM on July 21, 2017, 06:01:12 pm
Faraday cages do not "block particles", it is more of a channelling effect, and with good reason. We are trying to stop a cloud with bars. Clouds go through bars, and the bars are made out of material that has proven prone to being dispersed by antimagic. I feel as though our existing antimagic resistance on our crystals is more of a "hiding" effect than an "immunity" effect. But this concern is not well substantiated so hopefully is not an issue. We need something that acts as a conduit to antimagic and, well, the Faraday cage works because electricity is looking for a path to go from one place ot another, the antimagic clouds are happy to just loiter, we really need some form of active suction...
I also worry that we really don't have any experience in getting crystal to respond to magical energies. We have crystals that conduct or resist mundane forces, and want to get crystals that attract and control magical forces out of a revision. I just find it kind of unfortunately risky to make what seems to me to be rather a large leap.
Antiantimagic charms
We know that Kegger antimagic is different to our own. It extinguished our crystals when our own antimagic did not, which proves that, while our own antimagic can completely drain a region of magical potential, their's actually engages with magical presences and forces them to cease. We can see from this that it is definitely an active effect, imposing itself forcefully, where ours is a passive effect of simply draining the magic as the magic becomes active.
Another major observation that we have is that Kegger antimagic has no interaction with our own. The visible fields happily passed over our charms without any effects. This demonstrates that whatever it is, it is not a free-floating magical effect. This would suggest that it is not, in fact, magic. But we have seen that stabilised magic can maintain its integrity within an antimagic field from the performance of our own fireballs and crystals. There are no reports of our antimagic charms being damaged in any way from this... It seems that the Kegger antimagic is somehow stabilised magic in its field form. Which is ridiculous given its variable size and shape. It is clearly being modified actively while in progress, so must be escaping from our antimagic in some other way...
Finally, we have seen that the Kegger antimagic is produced by seemingly-magical staves from definitely magical wizards, and yet, despite its toxicity to crystal constructs, it has no effect on these staves, and has no long-term detriment to any of their other magical equipment.
From this there has been much speculation, but it seems that only one explanation fits all of the criteria. That of this "antimagic field" being thus:
A sustained magical effect with a fundamentally mundane nature. Its mundane nature allows it to behave as a mundane force, thus not being absorbed by our charms while it imposes mundanity within its influence, yet it is still clearly a magical construct, performing feats that are clearly impossible in the absence of magic, namely being stable in an inherently unstable shape. It is a small thing, but any builder can plainly see that such a cloud would collapse and disperse regardless of how immaterial it were, and certainly wouldn't adjust itself to the whims of a controller...
Thus, it is clearly magic, just of an extremely exotic form that our charms are not attuned to. No doubt there are other exotic forms of magic that our charms may also be incompatible with, which may lead to later developments of magical forms which can be used while wearing a charm, but for now it should be a rather simple matter of going over the mathemagics of charms and tweaking them to respond to the overtly mundane. Given the function of the charms, that they merely absorb magic, they should still be unable to damage anything that is legitimately mundane(although very careful testing with failed or low-potential applicants to The Academy is advised, lest we unknowingly distribute an effect that can permanently strip the magical potential from a mage) but should now be able to absorb this mundane-themed magic as well as it does any other. Given the broad and unfocused style of Kegger antimagic, it should be a simple matter to have a single charm steadily drain an entire field, and thust prevent it from crossing a certain point. Thus we can defeat their antimagic by simply sticking an antiantimagic charm between whatever is to be protected and the source of antimagic. Be that gluing one onto a protector or mounting it on a stick and holding it in front of some wizards.
In short: We change our antimagic charms so that they do the antimagic thing to antimagic fields. Being fields, you just need to get it into one point to suck up the whole field as though you were deflating a balloon...
Post by: Andres on July 21, 2017, 06:24:13 pm
Quote
4 - Antimagic Shielding (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516563#msg7516563): Kadzar, Draignean, Helmacon, AndreaThis is better than antimagic shielding. It means that things don't essentially need to be a box in order to be protected against antimagic. Honestly, that requirement is stupid and I'm not sure why people are so gung-ho about imposing that limitation on themselves.
1 - Antimagic-immune circuits (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516722#msg7516722): Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on July 21, 2017, 06:51:13 pm
Antimagic is a design, a big design, with many actions going into it. Just asking it to go away and stop bothering us as a revision won't work. Not unless the G.M. rolls well and feel the need to give us a freebie, at which point the enemy can just revise our revision away as a revision, likely with an enhanced antimagic effect out of the deal. I know that my proposal is a bit wall-of-texty, but it is based on existing technology that already does what we want and extensive observations as to how the unknown hostile effect actually operates. Additionally, it ought to give us something that can be used anywhere to protect anything, albeit perhaps in low quantities. I still think it will need to roll well, but it actually seems somewhat plausible. I really can't see "change our circuits so that their design does not work anymore" as going to go down well as a revision.
Post by: helmacon on July 21, 2017, 07:03:30 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 21, 2017, 07:16:05 pm
Quote
4 - Antimagic Shielding (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516563#msg7516563): Kadzar, Draignean, Helmacon, Andrea
2 - Antimagic-immune circuits (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516722#msg7516722): Andres, Chiefwaffles
I would swap helmacon's vote to RAM's thing, but I'm on mobile and would rather not go through the effort, sorry.
Post by: Kadzar on July 21, 2017, 07:33:23 pm
Antimagic-immune circuits I don't see as being very viable, since they won't let wizards cast inside of enclosed environments (crucial for the Avenger's gun, for one example, since it isn't battery-powered), and there's no guarantee it will let spells be cast at the terminus, since only the circuits themselves are shielded.
I actually like RAM's suggestion of our own antimagic charms made to work on Moskurg antimagic, though I'm hestitant to support it unless it specifically was attuned to pick up just the Moskurg antimagic field, rather than also affecting our own magic.
EDIT: I've added Helmacon to RAM's thing, though I haven't added RAM, since sometimes he doesn't vote for his own designs, so I'm not sure.
Quote
3 - Antimagic Shielding (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516563#msg7516563): Kadzar, Draignean, Andrea
2 - Antimagic-immune circuits (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516722#msg7516722): Andres, Chiefwaffles
1 - Antiantimagic Charms (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516708#msg7516708): Helmacon
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 21, 2017, 07:38:20 pm
Future Design: ASAF-F45
The F45 will (hopefully) be the final evolution of Artstotzka's first fighter.
KPD Mk.3 - Modify the continuous blastball effect to work across the craft without a nozzle while still remaining focused in one direction for great agility. Also hopefully increase acceleration. This more advanced method of thrust should make control+stability somewhat easier too as ability to thrust in literally any direction from any part of the craft allows for much greater compensation for shifts in center of gravity + movement.
Efficiency - We further work on increasing the efficiency of the craft so we can use up less power.
Reactor - Hopefully efficiency has been increased, so we can switch to A-level Aethergems instead of Daethergems. Not overcharging the Aethergems would also be nice, but is only if we do well enough with efficiency.
Turret - Make the ball turret 20mm and make it powered via mechanical controls easily accessible to the gunner.
TL;DR: We've made significant progress with the F44. Now we just need to focus on adding directional focusing to the continuous blastball spell and eliminate the use of nozzles, increase efficiency so we can use Aethergems and thus make it Expensive, (hopefully +acceleration), and finally fix that damn turret.
This should finally make the fighter.
Also.
Future Revision: Flakshell
We take the Blastshell+R and switch its core out for an AA Magegem. The single timer AAA gem remains.
Instead of detonating a PSF-C for propulsion after the timer runs out, the Flakshell will instead detonate itself with a SPSF-C when the timer runs out. The smaller gem and size considerations allow for fitting into the AS-HAC-1.
The ideal use of the Flakshell is for anti-air. Direct hits against enemy aircraft will no longer be required and the explosions will render enemy armor much less effective as repeated explosions can critically damage the armor, explosions can knock the aircraft out of the sky, kill the crew, knock the crew out of the sky, and more.
TL;DR: Make a smaller Blastshell+R (+R so we already have the timer) using an AA Magegem instead of whatever it was using before (I think 9 AA Magegems?) and have it detonate itself with an SPSF-C instead of propelling itself with a PSF-C. Should make a great flak shell.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 21, 2017, 08:05:16 pm
Cloud Cover: We've improved our fog spell. This new variant, Cloud Cover, built off our channeled fog, is projected into the air, where it forms a large amount of fog... above our forces. This is a very simple change, simply increasing the range of the spell slightly. The second improvement is slightly more complicated, charging the fog with magic slightly, making it hold together better, and possibly confusing magical sensing techniques. The idea of this spell is to spread some apprentices around our sites and project this into the air. Basically: we're going to make it impossible for Moskurg to tell what our ground positions are from the air. Seeing as the only reason Moskurg's winning is their air force, this should be devastating.
If they can't see our ground positions, they won't be able to bomb us. Lucky Strike still needs to be aimed.
Quote
Revision:
3 - Antimagic Shielding (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516563#msg7516563): Kadzar, Draignean, Andrea
2 - Antimagic-immune circuits (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516722#msg7516722): Andres, Chiefwaffles
1 - Antiantimagic Charms (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516708#msg7516708): Helmacon
1 - Cloud Cover (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516788#msg7516788): FallacyofUrist
Orders:
1 - Don't deploy the Avenger yet: FallacyofUrist
Post by: Pavellius on July 21, 2017, 09:24:44 pm
Post by: Andres on July 21, 2017, 09:33:39 pm
Forgive me, but I don't see how these revisions actually help us fight, given our main thing is artillery.Moskurg is disabling our artillery with antimagic. Making our artillery's circuits out of antimagic will mean they can no longer disable our artillery. Since our artillery is not in the shape of a box, Antimagic Shielding will not protect them from antimagic, which is part of why Antimagic Shielding is such a stupid idea. Antimagic circuits would, on the other hand, protect the HA1 from being disabled, as well as make all other things which use circuits (basically everything except melee weapons) also be able to ignore antimagic.
Glory to Arstotzka.
EDIT: To clarify, anything with AM-immune circuits will be immune to enemy anti-magic. They will be able to channel magic and produce spells as normal. The entire point of AM immunity is to prevent anti-magic from disrupting their ability to do so, after all.
Post by: RAM on July 21, 2017, 09:38:41 pm
I really want to see avengers falling out of the sky in droves to prove a point, but... I also don't want to fail horribly. I really don't see them surviving enemy wind effects at all as they currently are.
As I understand it, we could put a box around the base of our guns. Or incorporate a box into the design. I mean, we can't go changing all our designs with a revision, but we are past the point of avoiding that. It is basically a cage, as far as I can tell, so it would be possible to have the gun sticking out between the bars. Awkward, obviously, but they would presumably work...
Quote
Revision:
4 - Antimagic Shielding (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516563#msg7516563): Kadzar, Draignean, Andrea, RAM
2 - Antimagic-immune circuits (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516722#msg7516722): Andres, Chiefwaffles
2 - Antiantimagic Charms (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516708#msg7516708): Helmacon, RAM
1 - - As above Antiantimagic charms, but attempt to prevent them from affecting conventional magic: RAM
1 - Cloud Cover (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516788#msg7516788): FallacyofUrist
Orders:
2 - Don't deploy the Avenger yet: FallacyofUrist, RAM
0 - Include The Avenger with our forces as soon as possible:
Post by: Andres on July 21, 2017, 09:44:12 pm
As I understand it, we could put a box around the base of our guns. Or incorporate a box into the design. I mean, we can't go changing all our designs with a revision, but we are past the point of avoiding that. It is basically a cage, as far as I can tell, so it would be possible to have the gun sticking out between the bars. Awkward, obviously, but they would presumably work...Please for the love of all that is good vote for circuits instead. It means that NONE of our designs will need a Revision to work, none of them would have to be changed. It's a very easy way to fix all of our problems with no downsides whatsoever. Antimagic Shielding is just crap and awkward.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on July 21, 2017, 10:25:44 pm
But mostly I see the circuits as failing because they have no description of how or why they would work. It is just "our circuits are immune to antimagic now". It doesn't even reference how this is aligned to our prior knowledge. It would be like trying to turn fireballs into poison-cloud-balls. It wouldn't be that difficult if we had poison magic, but we don't. And our conjurations which have venomous wasps A: use venom, not poison, so not much use in a cloud, and B: are conjuration, which is vulnerable to antimagic, instead of thermal/force magic, which is only vulnerable when it is being summoned. So filling the sky with clouds of toxic gas is not viable because we don't have the necessary background. If we did then we could hook up some toxin towers and shoot giant extreme-range mushroom clouds in front of incoming forces. Of course, they would probably just use wind magic to ignore being completely surrounded by deadly gas, but it is a pleasant thought.
But hey, Chiefwaffles says that antimagic is easy, so we ought to be getting a +2 no matter how we phrase it...
Post by: Kadzar on July 21, 2017, 10:56:41 pm
It may not be perfect, but, as it stands, I don't see antimagic-immune circuits working for anything but the Mundane, as our wizards wouldn't be able to cast to power any of our devices.
Post by: Andres on July 21, 2017, 11:00:30 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Kadzar on July 21, 2017, 11:06:33 pm
Our mages don't need to cast. They can just supply the power and let the circuits of our devices create the spells.Do we even have enough magegems for that? And I'll also remind you that the Avenger currently requires a wizard to be able to fire its weapons, and probably wouldn't do well with the extra weight necessary to replace them with gems.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 21, 2017, 11:50:21 pm
The thing is that Antimagic Shielding very likely has to be revised into existing designs or put in new designs in its current state. It's creating a new type of crystal then doing nothing with it.
Meaning it will do nothing this turn and we will continue having problems and even then we have to consciously put it in each design to be useful.
Whereas Antimagic-Immune Circuits doesn't have the same limitation and immediately lets our magitech operate inside anti-magic fields. Kind of the same with antiantimagic charms, but I personally don't prefer those for other reasons.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 23, 2017, 03:47:28 pm
Reminder that AM Shielding in its current form will likely have no impact on current designs unless evicted is feeling extremely generous. Which is why you should vote for a different AMM revision! (AM-Immune circuits or AMM charms)
Quote
Revision:
4 - Antimagic Shielding (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516563#msg7516563): Kadzar, Draignean, Andrea, RAM
3 - Antimagic-immune circuits (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516722#msg7516722): Andres, Chiefwaffles, Gwolfski
2 - Antiantimagic Charms (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516708#msg7516708): Helmacon, RAM
1 - - As above Antiantimagic charms, but attempt to prevent them from affecting conventional magic: RAM
1 - Cloud Cover (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516788#msg7516788): FallacyofUrist
Orders:
2 - Don't deploy the Avenger yet: FallacyofUrist, RAM
1 - Deploy the Avenger: Chiefwaffles
I'm also voting to deploy the Avenger this turn. I'm not particularly attached to the idea of deploying it, but overall I'd slightly prefer it. So if someone else wants to deploy they can vote, but I'm probably not going to be arguing particularly hard/at all for it.
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 23, 2017, 08:07:57 pm
I will vote for antimagic shielding, but we will probably need to spend a full design on making it both more effective and work on everything.
Quote
Revision:
5 - Antimagic Shielding (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516563#msg7516563): Kadzar, Draignean, Andrea, RAM, voidslayer
3 - Antimagic-immune circuits (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516722#msg7516722): Andres, Chiefwaffles, Gwolfski
2 - Antiantimagic Charms (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516708#msg7516708): Helmacon, RAM
1 - - As above Antiantimagic charms, but attempt to prevent them from affecting conventional magic: RAM
1 - Cloud Cover (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516788#msg7516788): FallacyofUrist
Orders:
2 - Don't deploy the Avenger yet: FallacyofUrist, RAM
2 - Deploy the Avenger: Chiefwaffles, voidslayer
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 23, 2017, 08:23:22 pm
...why would you want to do that?
You want to spend a revision and a design on anti-magic resistance? I think that may actually be the worst possible path. Spending a revision on making circuits AM immune is what I think we should do, but I can at least respect the opinion of people who think it needs a design.
But a revision and design all for this? By your plan, we will lose in every theatre again this turn then we will lose again next turn because we wouldn't have designed anything new. The only thing their anti-magic is doing that actively hurts us is countering our artillery. We have no other uses for antimagic shielding. Our protectors won't be helped because they need their own work. Our wizards won't be able to cast their (useless) spells because of the designed limitations of AM shielding.
So we will lose in every theatre again this round if we do AM shielding. Because all we've designed is an okay fighter that will immediately drop out of the sky when they use their anti-magic against it. Meanwhile, Moskurg is developing new things.
Then, next turn, according to your plan, we will waste another design on anti-magic, meaning we will still keep losing because we lost when their anti-magic was an extremely small factor. Meanwhile, Moskurg will only build on their already-growing advantage.
...I just can't comprehend why anyone would want to spend a revision and design on anti-magic resistance.
Post by: RAM on July 23, 2017, 08:34:58 pm
I can at least respect the opinion of people who think [making circuits AM immune] needs a design.
Wait, what?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 23, 2017, 08:39:21 pm
Got something to say, RAM?
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 23, 2017, 08:41:28 pm
Quote
Revision:
4 - Antimagic Shielding (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516563#msg7516563): Kadzar, Draignean, Andrea, RAM
4 - Antimagic-immune circuits (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516722#msg7516722): Andres, Chiefwaffles, Gwolfski, voidslayer
2 - Antiantimagic Charms (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516708#msg7516708): Helmacon, RAM
1 - - As above Antiantimagic charms, but attempt to prevent them from affecting conventional magic: RAM
1 - Cloud Cover (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516788#msg7516788): FallacyofUrist
Orders:
2 - Don't deploy the Avenger yet: FallacyofUrist, RAM
2 - Deploy the Avenger: Chiefwaffles, voidslayer
Edit: I do want to spend a full design on anti magic in the future if this does not work. Something nasty to really mess them up when they try and use their spell. Maybe something to make it backfire and cut them off from casting magic forever. Or maybe just explode them. Yeah that is better.
Post by: Draignean on July 23, 2017, 09:07:04 pm
Well.
The thing is that Antimagic Shielding very likely has to be revised into existing designs or put in new designs in its current state. It's creating a new type of crystal then doing nothing with it.
Meaning it will do nothing this turn and we will continue having problems and even then we have to consciously put it in each design to be useful.
Whereas Antimagic-Immune Circuits doesn't have the same limitation and immediately lets our magitech operate inside anti-magic fields. Kind of the same with antiantimagic charms, but I personally don't prefer those for other reasons.
Chief, what evidence is there that we wouldn't need to do the exact same with the circuits? AM Circuits has one line of description that doesn't even amount to vigorous handwaving, more like a half-hearted shrug.
Both revisions make changes to our materials. One changes the circuits, one changes the crystal. They both share the same weakness of a being a changed component that couldn't, logically, simply be instantly altered for fielded weapons. Neither, however, fundamentally alters the structure of what they modify.
Is there any particular reason you believe that AM shielding would require another revision when AM circuits wouldn't?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 23, 2017, 09:19:30 pm
It has no descriptions of its applications. No description of how to use it. The revision is just a description of its benefits.
Think of when we designed Magegems, the steam engine, we got the Internal Detonation Engine with the Protector, or the Combat Armor's Crystal Glass, or a ton of other things we've gotten in revisions, designs, or part of other designs.
They don't immediately apply. They have to be consciously put into other designs to work. The same goes with AM shielding. Our designers will make AM-blocking Crystal then call it a day. We'll have the crystal (if we roll well enough, but the same goes for any idea) and it'll just be lying in a warehouse until we use it for something.
Contrast this to AM-immune circuits.
AM-immune circuits is an upgrade to existing circuits. It's taking the circuit "design" we're currently using for all our tech then modifying it to be AM-immune. This applies immediately. Like if we upgraded the steam engine in a revision, the upgrade would apply to all steam engine using designs. When we upgraded Magegems and Aethergems, the upgrade applies to all Magegem and Aethergem-using designs respectively.
This is because these revisions just upgrade the component without changing how it fits into designs. There's no need to put actual consideration into the application of the upgraded version because the upgrade can be applied universally and to all circuits without changing the way those circuits are implemented into the designs.
Revision: Antimagic ShieldingAntimagic shielding just creates a new type of crystal. That's it. It doesn't upgrade all existing crystal to be AM-shielding, which is what we would need to do for this to immediately apply.
Moskurg Antimagic has been a thorn in our side for a long time, but now it's become unbearable. That's why our designers have devised a new type of crystal which protects our magic from antimagical interference. It works much like the mythical "Faraday Cage" of Arstotzkan legend, blocking out harmful Moskurg antimagic particles so that those inside are free to cast as much as they like. There's no guarantee that spells cast inside the shielding will be protected once they leave the barrier, but our mundane projectiles should at least still work perfectly fine, and our Protectors should now only be stopped by their faulty suspension.
Antimagic-immune circuits, however, simply upgrades our existing circuits like how we upgraded Aethergems or Magegems. We upgrade a single aspect of Magegems in a revision, and it immediately applies to all Magegem-using designs. We upgrade a single aspect of Aethergems in a revision, and it immediately applies to all Aethergem-using designs.
I'm not a particularly big fan of the way AM-immune circuits is written, but it's too late for me to type out my own version so oh well.
Post by: helmacon on July 23, 2017, 10:10:01 pm
I will save my opinion on the avenger depending on how the revision goes.
Post by: RAM on July 23, 2017, 10:10:54 pm
Quote
Antimagic-immune circuits: Protect our circuits from the effects of antimagic so that they can channel magic and cast spells even within an anti-magic field.Thoughts:
: Protect how? No explanation of method, no opportunity for a bonus. There is no point to providing a link to the proposal because "Antimagic-immune circuits" is the entire proposal.
: direct opposition. Antimagic nullifies magic. This makes magic work. Not just persist but actually allows spells to be cast within antimagic. They could just as easily say "we revise our mind-reading to be immune to whatever is stopping it" or "we revise our flying carpets to be immune to being damaged by cannons". They have a design with an effect, we are attempting to completely nullify that effect. Bot just reduce or divert it, but make it vanish completely. Hard counters are a lot to ask out of a design, this is just a revision, one with no justification at that.
: Small scope. We already have a magical effect protection device that has universal applicability. The antimagic charm. We also have armour that could reasonably be attached to various things. If only our circuits are functioning then our other spells become useless and we are forced to rely solely upon devices. Devices which will all cease to exist when the enemy use a sonic weapon and evaporate our crystals for the second time.
: Inappropriate. Our circuits do, to my knowledge, have no history of being antimagic immune. Or resistance to magical fields, in fact they had difficulty with hot and cold fields.
: Insufficient. It makes no mention of where the circuits drive power from. There is some people who recall hearing that our power-sources worked within antimagic, but no citations have been provided that I am aware of. There is to my knowledge no suggestion that mages can provide power to a circuit while within an antimagic field. We know, from the mundane, that without mages our power supplies are greatly reduced. Even if this works perfectly we may well still be unable to activate any magic in an antimagic field.
: Incompatibility. With no specifications provided, it is entirely possible that the antimagic-immune circuits will be, for example, larger, hotter, more wasteful, don't work as circuits if they are too curved, don't work as antimagic if they are straight for too long... As a revision to circuits, they should be compatible with all current circuits, but that does not mean that they are compatible with all current devices that use circuits. We could revise a cannon to be larger. It would work the same way, with the same mechanisms and could be automatically applied to all of our vehicles that use that gun, if it fits! If you have it in a turret of a specific size then it is not going to be upgraded. If you have it on an open platform with a bit of space then it is going to be upgraded just fine and we can get that upgrade for free... Just because we can automatically upgrade all our circuits to antimagic doesn't mean that they won't spill out energy all over the place and need twices as much energy input to operate, thuse forcing us to completely redesign our stuff to provide twice as much power.
Antimagic is not just a design, it is a BIG design. Getting a partial hard-counter to it just by asking for one in a revision seems implausible. I don't like our odds if we base it off of existing endeavours in that field or use witty references to smooth over the rolls, but making zero effort at all to justify the proposal looks identical to squatting down, looking up, enlarging the eyes o three times their normal size, and desperately begging for a ridiculous negative modifier. If this works then we should officially give up on having actual designs, and instead just issue wish-lists. I honestly believe that "carpet eater: a circuit-based beam that goes through all metals and makes flight-devices instantly explode at medium range if it points at them." is a plausible design.
...okay?I am a person who thinks that making circuits antimagic immune requires a design. Therefore you respect my ]opinion.
Got something to say, RAM?
Well, technically you didn't say that, but I doubt that you can figure out why. One could also make an argument for my statement being irrelevant to yours, but that would be technically incorrect, given how very clear the implication is. Ad then again, I don't entirely believe that it requires a design, it could achieve the same thing with three or so revisions or a freak occurrence, but again, the context makes it very clear that "requires a design" actually means "cannot be achieved with a single revision". So it comes out to a game of "spot the logic error" which might be fun for some.
I was tempted to just come up with a dozen quotes of you saying it was definitely easy as a revision, which really isn't consistent with respecting the alternate opinion. The correct course is to just sink to your level and not justify anything, just provide the most simple and direct counter with no argument and devolve into ignorant savages. But the witty and informative "spot the logical fallacy in my own statement" might actually teach you something, so let's see if we can't score a win for Team Comprehension!
--------------------------------------------------------------
Antimagic shielding references Faraday cages, which is an amusing anecdote and I would be sorely tempted to give it a +1 from the witty reference if I were judging it. It also mentions antimagic particles which can be blocked. It is not an entirely outlandish theory and crystals do, indeed, block things. I find it pretty lacking myself, but it does at least exceed the "because shrug" competition offered by the circuits. Meanwhile I provide a thesis featuring observations of their antimagic and references to existing knowledge and modifications to an existing technology that is already relevant, but supporting that sort of thing would just be silly. Shielding is a happy middle-ground.
Shielding creates "a new type of crystal" while circuits "change our circuits". The two are not really any different in this regard. Our stuff is already covered in crystal, changing the surface is not that big of a deal. The changed circuits would not just magically alter every instance of circuits. They would need to be changed in the designs and rebuilt and redistributed. Effectively there is no difference. They both come down to "change the properties of this existing material to produce a new material that can hopefully be implemented immediately" and I am more optimistic about being able to slap on a problematic new surface than a problematic new internal mechanism...
Post by: helmacon on July 23, 2017, 10:21:17 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 23, 2017, 10:28:01 pm
Quote
Revision:
4 - Antimagic Shielding (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516563#msg7516563): Kadzar, Draignean, Andrea, RAM
5 - Antimagic-immune circuits (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516722#msg7516722): Andres, Chiefwaffles, Gwolfski, voidslayer, helmacon
->1 - AM-Immune Circuits Fluff (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7518402#msg7518402): Chiefwaffles
1 - Antiantimagic Charms (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516708#msg7516708): RAM
1 - - As above Antiantimagic charms, but attempt to prevent them from affecting conventional magic: RAM
1 - Cloud Cover (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7516788#msg7516788): FallacyofUrist
Orders:
2 - Don't deploy the Avenger yet: FallacyofUrist, RAM
2 - Deploy the Avenger: Chiefwaffles, voidslayer
Changing over helmacon's vote as requested.
And I definitely agree regarding the Avenger. Because deploying it along with antimagic resistance in some form could help. Definitely against airships, and maybe against carpets/skiffs. But even then, I have to wonder if the Avenger could actually help us win in a theatre. If it was Expensive, maybe, but Very Expensive? The Avenger could probably deal with any single Moskurg ship in a 1-1 fight, but that may not be enough.
Well, I guess the Avenger could be a good Airship/Phoenix counter. (Though phoenix should be easy to counter with functional ground artillery). It matches them in expense, has bombs, and its lacking acceleration isn't as much of a factor.
Against skyskiffs, it could definitely make them less of an issue, but they have lots of skiffs and the Avenger still has the unpowered AS-HAC-1 turret and has slow acceleration. Definitely better than nothing, but questionable.
I dunno. I'll definitely make a final decision myself after this revision. If it fails completely then definitely not for sure.
The correct course is to just sink to your level and not justify anything, just provide the most simple and direct counter with no argument and devolve into ignorant savages.Jesus christ, RAM. Can you maybe not?
EDIT: I'm just including a brief bit of fluff for AM-Immune circuits that I'll put as a "sub-type" underneath the actual revision in the votes quote thing.
AM-Immune Circuits (unofficial) Fluff
We retrieve the old "crystal circuit" plans drawn out years ago. These plans were originally discarded due to microfractures in the crystal gradually making circuitry unfeasible, but this problem has since been solved with regenerative crystal.
The crystal circuitry by itself shouldn't provide any noticeable differences to nickel circuitry (other than mildly increased durability due to crystal, regeneration and whatnot but this is irrelevant to the revision). Instead, the difference and main revision comes next.
The actual revision here (as we already have crystal circuits and as regenerative crystal is the standard, they should already be just as functional as nickel circuits) is to switch the crystal in the circuits over to the crystal glass used in Magegems. By using this crystal glass that has proven to be immune to anti-magic, we can protect our circuits from being rendered nonfunctional by anti-magic of all kinds.
TL;DR: Since crystal circuits (broken revision a while ago) should retroactively work just as well as nickel circuits thanks to regenerative crystal now, take the design back out of the
I've edited the votes at the top of this post to include this fluff.
Post by: evictedSaint on July 23, 2017, 10:44:50 pm
Revision: Antimagic-immune circuits [4+3]
We have plenty of experience with anti-magic and circuitry, so hardening our circuitry against Moskurg Anti-Magic is rather trivial.
A small AAAethergem can be inserted into any circuit to provide enough power to shield the nickel wires from Anti-Magic fields, including our own. Against our own anti-magic, the AAAethergem produces enough magic to remain replenished despite the rather minor draw, and we're pleased to note that automatic circuits (such as the ones that generate blastballs) can produce their magical effects despite the field of effect.
We take the liberty of upgrading everything that uses circuits accordingly for no additional cost.
How do you deal with the potential Espionage Credit this year?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 23, 2017, 11:03:43 pm
And I've asked evicted on the discord. He says that our mages will still be able to "feed" circuitry like the stuff used in the AS-HAC-1 and so on while in AM fields.
Anyways, as for the Espionage Credit -
Have Myark use the Wand of True Light on the crew+captain to try and influence their loyalty. Of course not enough to brainwash them, but enough to make betrayal unlikely.
Of course we can't brainwash them because we don't have that much time. But we can use the time we have to give them a very small degree of "loyalty" to Arstotzka. Not enough to trust them as soldiers, but enough for them to "like" Arstotzka a bit.
Quote
ESPIONAGE
1 - Use Wand of True Light on crew+captain just enough to make them like Arstotzka a biiit more than Moskurg; agree to deal: Chiefwaffles
ORDERS
2 - Don't deploy the Avenger yet: FallacyofUrist, RAM
2 - Deploy the Avenger: Chiefwaffles, voidslayer
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 23, 2017, 11:08:25 pm
First is True Shot. Our cannons having the same accuracy of their ballistas would be devastating. This is literally a starter apprentice spell so it should be trivial to steal.
Second is their carpet stuff. It seems like it would be infinitely easier then our weirdo rockets (I love the weirdo rockets but they are not working well so far), and we could combine the two together anyway to make our rockets much more useful.
Post by: helmacon on July 23, 2017, 11:22:41 pm
We just dropped 2 designs into our own air tech. It seems like such a waste to immediately abandon that.
Given how well the revision went, I vote to deploy the avenger. It may not be a dog fighter, but it flys and shoots. So long as our aether gems are charged before take off, it should even have a minuet it so flight time when in an anti magic field, to shoot down what ever it is that's casting it.
No matter how bad it is, it's something in the sky. They go from being completely un contested, to being contested. It's like when the continental arms race went from being a massive naval advantage to a major naval advantage.
Edit: eh. I wouldn't really be opposed to stealing their flight tech. I really don't want to have to put any more designs/revisions into this thing.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 23, 2017, 11:28:58 pm
Personally I think we should try stealing Moskurg's wind magic. But then we don't try to just put their wind stuff on our ships. Instead, we learn from what they did. Then we incorporate it into the KPD.
So instead of just making a wind-powered aircraft, we take their control of the wind and apply it to the KPD and Blastball. We could try for applying their absolute control of the wind (an external force) to control of kinetics using Blastballs like how the F43 intended.
So basically, we just steal their wind magic but instead of using wind magic ourselves we just improve our own tech. For a weird analogy, it's like how in the XCOM game you develop lasers based on applying knowledge learned to existing Earth knowledge of lasers after studying alien plasma weaponry. Except in this analogy plasma weaponry is lame and stupid and 10000% worse than lasers.
Maybe. I'unno. Lucky strike could work, but it's just not as cool as guided ammunition.
Quote
ESPIONAGEAdded helmacon's vote for deploying the Avenger.
1 - Use Wand of True Light on crew+captain just enough to make them like Arstotzka a biiit more than Moskurg; agree to deal: Chiefwaffles
ORDERS
2 - Don't deploy the Avenger yet: FallacyofUrist, RAM
3 - Deploy the Avenger: Chiefwaffles, voidslayer, helmacon
Though the Avenger should have exactly zero problems flying in AM fields. Aethergems and Magegems are already immune and now the circuitry is too. Since mages can still power circuitry the Avenger should be unaffected by anti-magic.
Post by: helmacon on July 23, 2017, 11:55:10 pm
Quote
Against our own anti-magic, the AAAethergem produces enough magic to remain replenished despite the rather minor draw,
Although this dosent explicitly state it, it would seem to imply that enemy antimagic dampens the magical generation ability of our aether gems, and this effect is much less pronounced from our own anti magic.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 24, 2017, 12:27:20 am
And Magegems+Aethergems are already immune to anti-magic. The "enough magic to remain replenished despite the rather minor draw" is referring to the power draw on the circuits which then take power from the circuit's integrated AAAethergem to compensate for that power loss.
Post by: RAM on July 24, 2017, 12:39:36 am
That is all the evidence that I could have asked for. I mean, sure, some people might be stupid enough to believe that your statement is somehow moderate, but I like to think that people are not that blind.The correct course is to just sink to your level and not justify anything, just provide the most simple and direct counter with no argument and devolve into ignorant savages.Jesus christ, RAM. Can you maybe not?
And I admit that I was wrong about that revision being viable. I was quite certain that it would be -2 at best. I mean, I was right for that, our solution is sort of nonsensical. Last I heard an aethergem was the size of a forearm, but even one the size of a finger is unlikely to fit into the circuitry that is inside a device or operates a small device(such as our small arms) without redesign, but meh. Also our antimagic that has never succeeded in countering magic or been applied to circuits is all relevant. I genuinely misunderstood that experience is experience regardless of context. In light of these new discoveries...
Phoenixes
We build a new artillery shell, we have lots of experience with this. It has circuits, we know all about circuits, so it can cast a spell easily. It spins around because of rifling, and flight dynamics, and because all of our boats involve streamlining, we have that too! But it doesn't really need to spin, because our force magic shoots the spell out to a great distance. What is that spell? Why, a fire spell of course, because we have massive experience with fire. But I wouldn't leave it at that, it is special fire! With our antimagic experience, it is fire that uses magic as fuel and oxidiser! So long as there is anything magical in its vicinity, it will spread to it and burn away all the magic, and because it comes from a circuit, it is immune to antimagic, because that is canon now! And lets not forget that all of our conjuration spells have a duration, so it is ridiculously easy to get it to wait a while before activating. Antimagic spell, conjured antimagic charm, steam reservoir... Besides, all of our plant spells are time-based and we have, like, three of those, so this is easy! And because it only burns magic, it will either go straight through their nonmagical metal into their faux-carpets, or burn the magic out of their magical metal and then go through the useless al metal! Because they use wind spells to move, as soon as they use a wind magic to push away from the burning boat, the fire will spread to them! And because there are no survivors from falling from the skies when their only means of escape sets them on fire, nobody will be able to figure out not to blow at the burning ships! Not that it matters when al of their main vessels are contributing to the same storm spells... And apparently the AAAthergems make no difference when included into circuitry, so powering the thing is a non-issue and having it explode when it hits something is just bonus.
Long story short: cannon shells that spin around and shoot out massive(medium range? We have lots and lots and lots of experience with medium range spells) plumes of magical fire that burn away entire Kegger fleets. Blowing them off-course just lets the flames eat the deflection spell and follow it to its source...
Stealing the wind magic would have been a good idea when I suggested it, now I don't really see how we could apply it effectively, unless you are just asking for a bonus on the propulsion that we don't have after two designs due to a complete lack of prioritisation on designs with half-a-dozen elements which thus desperately needed prioritisation at which point we may as well just spend a revision buffing it...
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 24, 2017, 01:05:38 am
Post by: helmacon on July 24, 2017, 01:06:19 am
If this keeps going on i'm going to suggest a team rule where RAM and CW aren't allowed to directly respond to each other.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 24, 2017, 01:15:31 am
See the AS-R1.
See the Protector.
See the Avenger.
Two out of the three are functional, but both the AS-R1 and Avenger have had multiple actions poured into them already and aren't amazing. All three have great potential but still aren't extremely useful (we'll see about the Avenger) until more work is put into them.
The idea behind stealing wind magic is that we can basically just use it to upgrade the KPD. Take their extreme and easy control over wind and apply it to the KPD. So basically we get a much easier KPD upgrade when we do it.
We don't really need their greek fire or faux gunpowder since we have fireballs and Blastballs. And Lucky Strike would be nice, but it feels like it would be a waste of the credit when we can design guided ammunition more capable than Lucky Strike.
Lucky Strike is basically just "+1 to hit chance; +1 to critical hit". We're very close to having missiles, which are a whole another, better, story.
EDIT: Speaking of missiles...
Future Design: AS-GM-45 "Hunter" Missile
The Guided Munition-45 "Hunter" is a new type of weapon - the missile. A term coined to describe this evolution of the Blastshell.
Spoiler: Fluff (click to show/hide)
Weight - The GM-45 is significantly lighter than the Avenger. Because the GM-45 is a missile. And the Avenger is a 2-man gunship. This is relevant later.
KPD - Put the Gen. 2 KPD (from the Avenger) onto the missile. Greatly decreased in (size? dunno how big it is in the Avenger) and power/thrust because of the aforementioned weight decrease. Missile should still have much greater acceleration than the Avenger for obvious reasons, but ultimately much less power+thrust.
Reactor - Because of the much smaller KPD, we can go for a much smaller Reactor, preferably consisting of AAethergems or in the worst case scenario, Aethergems. Because the GM-45 is a missile and doesn't really have much of an operational lifetime, we can put extreme overcharging on the Reactor gems to decrease the amount+expense of gems needed to power the GM-45.
Warhead - Instead of Magegems powering a Blastball like in the Blastshell, we just put the Reactor at the front of the missile in a thin crystal shell. The volatile aethergems should provide a violent detonation hopefully even greater than a Blastshell without having to waste more space on Magegems+Circuitry for the detonation.
Mindgem - Make modifications to an AA (Aether/)Magegem to fit a magical entity. Then isolate the "mind" part of our summon wasps spell and summon parts of the mind in magical form into the Mindgem. We're shooting for simplicity, here; we're not even summoning the whole wasp mind! The goal here is to just get an extremely primitive precursor Mindgem that can point the missile at bad things. Again, simplicity - this Mindgem is not intended to host actual intelligences; but rather just the bare minimum of a wasp to go "see bad thing; go there" and literally nothing else.
Mindgem Maneuvering - The Mindgem just outputs primitive targeting data that circuitry then feeds into the KPD, which then thrust-vectors to point the missile at the target. (Which is an established existing feature of the Gen.2 KPD)
Mindgem Targeting - Doesn't really matter. Probably via magical signatures, though ideally the Mindgem will be able to interpret between friend/foe due to the fact that the Wasp can, but it's not a dealbreaker if there's no IFF. Fluff is mostly irrelevant here.
Firing - The missiles are fired via a missile launcher - a large object housing four missile pods on a fairly tall mount and slowly "aimed" via some mechanical gears. Transported by horse, hand, or Restless.
TL;DR: Make a small KPD, put the reactor at the front as a warhead + super-charge it because we're not reusing it. Then put an extremely simple Mindgem with the bare minimum parts of a Wasp's mind to point the missile at bad things which the KPD then thrust-vectors to point the missile at. Warhead is done via the volatile-reactor.
Post by: RAM on July 24, 2017, 05:21:14 am
I do not recall any variable circuits. It might be rather difficult to have something with enough fine control to drive an aircraft. Given that most of the problem is in creating the distinct mind spell(I would much prefer intelligent spells that are much more versatile than intelligent crystals that are a little more stable but take up weight and space. Also, it would be easier to retrieve a living spell to have it learn rather than a crystal that will suffer significant battle casualties.)
Also, I prefer the mage-slayers that I just proposed as an antimagic design. Mage-seeking missiles seem much mire useful than enemy-seeking missiles and a pulling effect seems more effetive than a steering effect, what with their different attitudes to overshooting and the mage-slayer's inclination to go after a different mage after whatever it was seeking stops being a mages... But hey, we got our fighter up to three-fifths finished instead, and it will surely take them more than a revision to get a better air-superiority craft.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 24, 2017, 06:38:05 am
Design: ASAF-F44 "Avenger" [4, 4-1, 4]I'm actually not sure how exactly the thrust is angled, but it's likely through either modifying the variables of the spell or angling the thruster itself. Considering our experience with the Blastball and our experience with mechanical things like an angled thruster (we can't even make a proper ball turret!) I'd bet it's changing the Blastball-based propulsion spell in real time. But it could be the other.
...
Using the characteristics of our new blastball spell we can create an engine that generates lift. The KPD Mk.2 engine is essentially a crystal cup, into which a number of nickel circuits and copper scrollwork is integrated. We make liberal use of the conductive/non-conductive crystal to channel energy towards the base of the cup where the continuous blastball can be generated and directed outward. The intensity of the generation can be modulated to provide differing levels of thrust.
...
The pilot is still equipped with a set of rotating spherical controls, which adjust the angle of the KPD's output up to ten degrees.
Point is, it's thrust vectoring regardless of how exactly it's done. The angle of the KPD's output is adjusted to maneuver the craft.
Though I don't know what exactly you mean by variable circuits. Our circuits are pretty robust. In fact, this is where circuits were invented:
Revision: Magical Condensor: [5+1]Note the mentions of complicated input, and we've made radical improvements in circuitry since then. Unless you mean something else by variable circuits?
We get the details of the condensing system worked out.
It certainly took some complicated spellwork; the spell needs both the input of the outside temperature, the temperature of the metal it's engraved in, and the target temperature. It needed a rather complex formula to govern the intensity of the spell based on these inputs and a number of safeties to prevent it from cracking or freezing parts of the machine it shouldn't.
...
The inscription requires the complex spellwork to be engraved into the metal by hand in an intensive, length process that only skilled metalsmiths are able to pull off. The engraving is then filled in with gold, allowing the magic to be held within.
Curiously, we discover by accident that a completed circle, or "circuit", allows the spell enchantment to remain on the weapon indefinitely. Breaking this circuit causes the magic to dissipate.
I'm not necessarily saying we should do the missile immediately, but I do think it's a good idea.
As for the wasps, well, them having IFF is extremely likely. From the OP:
Quote
Summon Swarm: Conjures a swarm of stinging wasps to harrass foes. Expensive.Note the use of "foes" and the lack of any mention of attacking allies. Also, this is a starter spell; starter spells are usually pretty straightforward in their power. Summon Swarm summons wasps that harass enemies. That's it.
Better to ask evicted about it, though, I guess.
Fun fact.
Fortunately, thanks to the brave sacrifice of dozens of apprentice wizards sent off to the jungle to hunt for specimens, you are able to discover a rare beetle that has a gland capable of producing a sticky, burning substance. With great difficulty, you manage to alter the summoning spell so that ice wasps are summoned but with fire beetle glands.It's been under our feet this entire time.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 24, 2017, 08:40:52 am
I'll +1 that once you propose it, but I do think we should improve the F44 to the F45 first.
Or at least make it so that the F44's reactor doesn't explode.
Also, don't we still have a spare expense credit?
Post by: Andres on July 24, 2017, 01:15:38 pm
Quote
ESPIONAGE
1 - Use Wand of True Light on crew+captain just enough to make them like Arstotzka a biiit more than Moskurg; agree to deal: Chiefwaffles
ORDERS
2 - Don't deploy the Avenger yet: FallacyofUrist, RAM
3 - Deploy the Avenger: Chiefwaffles, voidslayer, Andres
1 - Denounce Moskurg on the world stage: Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 24, 2017, 02:04:06 pm
Quote
ESPIONAGE[/quote]
1 - Use Wand of True Light on crew+captain just enough to make them like Arstotzka a biiit more than Moskurg; agree to deal: Chiefwaffles
1 - Attempt to "steal" Lucky Strike: Chiefwaffles
ORDERS
2 - Don't deploy the Avenger yet: FallacyofUrist, RAM
4 - Deploy the Avenger: Chiefwaffles, voidslayer, helmacon, Andres
1 - Denounce Moskurg on the world stage: Andres
Lucky Strike is just a good thing to have. If we get it, we can incorporate it into our own tech or make defenses specifically against it. We'd just be way more accurate. Imagine - precision explosive artillery.
Post by: RAM on July 24, 2017, 03:41:02 pm
Or steal their manufacturing processes to get the secrets of how they made their fire potion and cheat-metal(although likely without those specific recipes) and combine them with our crystal forging to improve our materials. No doubt there is some compelling reason that we will need "I can't believe it's not alien alloys" for our turbolasers... Or we could prevent the upcoming sonic attack by making our crystals out of adamantine. Because they are made out of metal instead of crystals(chemists, physicists, and dictionaries the-world-over weep) they can have the structure of a crystal but avoid its weaknesses...
Then again, it might be best to just use it to find a way to destroy cheat-metal. If we could beam a rusting effect out of our frost towers then we ought to be able to pretty much end them.
Or... Is this game still based on numbers? We could introduce a predatory insect to their crops(do they even have crops? They are known for their quantity over our quality, and deserts are defined by their low ability to support biomass...) or spoil relationships with their trading partners and thus reduce the rate at which they can get reinforcements., It might have a huge impact over the long term...
Post by: helmacon on July 24, 2017, 03:58:42 pm
Quote
Or we could steal their antimagic and combine it with our own and our tower technology to create a territory-wide shaped antimagic effect.... Dude. Woah.
They have like, 0 defence against anti magic too.
The only reason I'm hesitant on this is because I don't want to escalate the anti magic back and forth thing.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 24, 2017, 04:03:03 pm
Antimagic, as we've displayed, is easy to counter if one side gets too ambitious.
If we try to suddenly make our anti-magic into this territory wide thing, we will lose a revision(/design) and an espionage credit for a one turn advantage. Then Moskurg will counter our anti-magic because they have to and also get to start mind-reading our officers again.
We will win one turn but will come out of the exchange having lost overall.
Post by: Andres on July 24, 2017, 06:32:22 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 24, 2017, 08:14:46 pm
It's also something that may give the GM a headache due to the salt it would inflict on Moskurg's end. Imagine if they suddenly disabled all of our magic in the span of a single turn. It's not somewhere we want to go.
They already did that. Twice.
The first air control thing and then the first anti magic staves, the first time they invalidated half our magic, the second they invalidated all of it. We invented cannons to get range on their anti magic.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 24, 2017, 08:23:42 pm
Post by: helmacon on July 24, 2017, 08:34:35 pm
They have floaty scrolls, we have spell circuit scrolls. If we steal them, we will have the ultimate scrolls. (Plus, we could use those to make the protector a pod-racer like thing)
I vote we steal their floaty scrolls.
Quote
ESPIONAGE[/quote]
1 - Use Wand of True Light on crew+captain just enough to make them like Arstotzka a biiit more than Moskurg; agree to deal: Chiefwaffles
1 - Do not use the wand of true light and risk an unnecessary order.
1 - Attempt to "steal" Lucky Strike: Chiefwaffles
1 - Attempt to steal the floaty scrolls.
ORDERS
2 - Don't deploy the Avenger yet: FallacyofUrist, RAM
4 - Deploy the Avenger: Chiefwaffles, voidslayer, helmacon, Andres
1 - Denounce Moskurg on the world stage: Andres
1 - Do not denounce Moskurg and risk an unnecessary order
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 24, 2017, 08:46:25 pm
Quote
ESPIONAGE
2 - Use Wand of True Light on crew+captain just enough to make them like Arstotzka a biiit more than Moskurg; agree to deal: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
1 - Do not use the wand of true light and risk an unnecessary order: helmacon
2 - Attempt to "steal" Lucky Strike: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
1 - Attempt to steal the floaty scrolls: helmacon
ORDERS
2 - Don't deploy the Avenger yet: FallacyofUrist, RAM
4 - Deploy the Avenger: Chiefwaffles, voidslayer, helmacon, Andres
1 - Denounce Moskurg on the world stage: Andres
2 - Do not denounce Moskurg and risk an unnecessary order: helmacon, FallacyofUrist
It's occurred to me that the Avenger is going to be horribly fragile in the field because vulnerable reactor and Lucky Strike ballista, unless Lucky Strike doesn't work on highly mobile targets.
For this, I have a simple future revision to present.
Future Revision: Self-Contained Aethergems:
Our Aethergems are currently made of a complex apparatus attached to a Magegem. Using our Crystalworks and spell circuits experience, we can make the Aethergem-ness inherent to the gem itself. This means we won't need an apparatus attached to the Magegem, decreasing the space the Aethergems take up, but more importantly it makes Aethergems less volatile, meaning they don't explode when they receive a hard impact.
Post by: helmacon on July 24, 2017, 08:48:54 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 24, 2017, 08:54:58 pm
Finally, we already have our own version of flight. We don't need scrolls(and pod racers are fragile anyways). Lucky Strike helps us in all the ways I mention above, and it leads into luck magic in general. Select the people with the most potential for magic for training, entirely at random! Apply the same to any skill we need! Make huge plans of combat, many of them, and choose the best one at random! The extremely, extremely rare chance of lightning hitting their own men becomes more like 1 in 10! Luck magic, now coming to a wizard near you!
And it gives something for our wizards to do other than being batteries.
Post by: helmacon on July 24, 2017, 09:07:37 pm
Way cooler than lucky strike.
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 24, 2017, 09:11:24 pm
Artillery guidance system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pigeon) except we use wasps.
Way cooler than lucky strike.
Yes, but, if we had luck magic we could have a spell that causes deer to randomly wander up next to our soldiers at the exact time a lighting strike will hit and be hit instead.
Post by: Andres on July 24, 2017, 10:20:08 pm
Quote
ESPIONAGE
2 - Use Wand of True Light on crew+captain just enough to make them like Arstotzka a biiit more than Moskurg; agree to deal: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
1 - Do not use the wand of true light and risk an unnecessary order: helmacon
2 - Attempt to "steal" Lucky Strike: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
1 - Attempt to steal the floaty scrolls: helmacon
1 - Do not use an Espionage Credit we don't yet have: Andres
ORDERS
2 - Don't deploy the Avenger yet: FallacyofUrist, RAM
4 - Deploy the Avenger: Chiefwaffles, voidslayer, helmacon, Andres
1 - Denounce Moskurg on the world stage: Andres
2 - Do not denounce Moskurg and risk an unnecessary order: helmacon, FallacyofUrist
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on July 24, 2017, 10:26:07 pm
Quote
ESPIONAGE
2 - Use Wand of True Light on crew+captain just enough to make them like Arstotzka a biiit more than Moskurg; agree to deal: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
1 - Do not use the wand of true light and risk an unnecessary order: helmacon
2 - Attempt to "steal" Lucky Strike: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
1 - Attempt to steal the floaty scrolls: helmacon
2 - Do not use an Espionage Credit we don't yet have: Andres, RAM
ORDERS
2 - Don't deploy the Avenger yet: FallacyofUrist, RAM
4 - Deploy the Avenger: Chiefwaffles, voidslayer, helmacon, Andres
2 - Denounce Moskurg on the world stage: Andres, RAM
2 - Do not denounce Moskurg and risk an unnecessary order: helmacon, FallacyofUrist
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 24, 2017, 10:43:05 pm
Most of their floaty-ness comes from their war pegisi scrolls.
They have floaty scrolls, we have spell circuit scrolls. If we steal them, we will have the ultimate scrolls. (Plus, we could use those to make the protector a pod-racer like thing)
I vote we steal their floaty scrolls.
It'd be pretty stupid if we could steal their scrolls.
Their scrolls are the culmination of an extreme amount of actions. It'd be like if they could just steal the HA1 or the IDE immediately. We could try stealing some basic wind magic and try to use it to improve the KPD, sure, but that's not really the best move.
Also, their scrolls aren't the same as our scrolls.
For Moskurg: "Scroll" = "Jet engine"
For Arstotzka: "Scroll = Flexible circuit".
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 24, 2017, 11:15:59 pm
Quote
ESPIONAGE
2 - Use Wand of True Light on crew+captain just enough to make them like Arstotzka a biiit more than Moskurg; agree to deal: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
1 - Do not use the wand of true light and risk an unnecessary order: helmacon
3 - Attempt to "steal" Lucky Strike: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, voidslayer
1 - Attempt to steal the floaty scrolls: helmacon
2 - Do not use an Espionage Credit we don't yet have: Andres, RAM
ORDERS
2 - Don't deploy the Avenger yet: FallacyofUrist, RAM
4 - Deploy the Avenger: Chiefwaffles, voidslayer, helmacon, Andres
2 - Denounce Moskurg on the world stage: Andres, RAM
3 - Do not denounce Moskurg and risk an unnecessary order: helmacon, FallacyofUrist, voidslayer
Post by: Gwolfski on July 25, 2017, 05:50:54 am
Quote
ESPIONAGE[/quote]
2 - Use Wand of True Light on crew+captain just enough to make them like Arstotzka a biiit more than Moskurg; agree to deal: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
1 - Do not use the wand of true light and risk an unnecessary order: helmacon
4 - Attempt to "steal" Lucky Strike: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, voidslayer, Gwolfski
1 - Attempt to steal the floaty scrolls: helmacon
2 - Do not use an Espionage Credit we don't yet have: Andres, RAM
ORDERS
2 - Don't deploy the Avenger yet: FallacyofUrist, RAM
4 - Deploy the Avenger: Chiefwaffles, voidslayer, helmacon, Andres
2 - Denounce Moskurg on the world stage: Andres, RAM
3 - Do not denounce Moskurg and risk an unnecessary order: helmacon, FallacyofUrist, voidslayer
Post by: Andres on July 25, 2017, 02:17:05 pm
Quote
ESPIONAGEGM said we could use the Espionage Credit as soon as we get it so I don't see why not.
2 - Use Wand of True Light on crew+captain just enough to make them like Arstotzka a biiit more than Moskurg; agree to deal: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
2 - Do not use the wand of true light and risk an unnecessary order: helmacon, Andres
5 - Attempt to "steal" Lucky Strike: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, voidslayer, Gwolfski, Andres
1 - Attempt to steal the floaty scrolls: helmacon
1 - Do not use an Espionage Credit we don't yet have: RAM
ORDERS
2 - Don't deploy the Avenger yet: FallacyofUrist, RAM
4 - Deploy the Avenger: Chiefwaffles, voidslayer, helmacon, Andres
2 - Denounce Moskurg on the world stage: Andres, RAM
3 - Do not denounce Moskurg and risk an unnecessary order: helmacon, FallacyofUrist, voidslayer
1 - Focus the Wand of True Light on a Moskurg to see if it can turn it into an Arstotzkan: Andres
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 25, 2017, 03:10:56 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on July 25, 2017, 03:27:09 pm
Quote
ESPIONAGE
1 - Use Wand of True Light on crew+captain just enough to make them like Arstotzka a biiit more than Moskurg; agree to deal: FallacyofUrist
2 - Do not use the wand of true light and risk an unnecessary order: helmacon, Andres
5 - Attempt to "steal" Lucky Strike: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, voidslayer, Gwolfski, Andres
1 - Attempt to steal the floaty scrolls: helmacon
1 - Do not use an Espionage Credit we don't yet have: RAM
ORDERS
2 - Don't deploy the Avenger yet: FallacyofUrist, RAM
4 - Deploy the Avenger: Chiefwaffles, voidslayer, helmacon, Andres
2 - Denounce Moskurg on the world stage: Andres, RAM
3 - Do not denounce Moskurg and risk an unnecessary order: helmacon, FallacyofUrist, voidslayer
1 - Focus the Wand of True Light on a Moskurg to see if it can turn it into an Arstotzkan: Andres
1 - Do not do the above order: Chiefwaffles
I still think we should use the wand of true light a bit on the crew, I don't care enough and am just going to remove my vote for it to get this over with. I'll probably re-add my vote if someone else votes for it though.
I also tidied up the votes a bit to reduce likely GM frustration.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 25, 2017, 04:48:49 pm
Post by: helmacon on July 25, 2017, 05:06:41 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on July 26, 2017, 04:54:48 pm
Before that, though, the F44 is very expensive... and probably won't help us at all because of that... we're going to have to spend our next turn on it again, seriously. We really shouldn't be deploying it this turn, not when it has a big gaping weak point vulnerable to lucky strike. The reactor.
We do have a spare expense credit(maybe), but that would be better spent on the F45.
Spoiler: Rocketshell (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Stable Aethergems (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Lynx Armor: (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Microquake: (click to show/hide)
Updated voting.
Quote
ESPIONAGE
2? - Use Wand of True Light on crew+captain just enough to make them like Arstotzka a biiit more than Moskurg; agree to deal: FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles(presumably, if he just wanted to get it over with, but would prefer this option, he would put his vote back on)
1 - Do not use the wand of true light and risk an unnecessary order: Andres
5 - Attempt to "steal" Lucky Strike: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, voidslayer, Gwolfski, Andres
1 - Attempt to steal the floaty scrolls: helmacon
1 - Do not use an Espionage Credit we don't yet have: RAM
ORDERS
2 - Don't deploy the Avenger yet: FallacyofUrist, RAM
4 - Deploy the Avenger: Chiefwaffles, voidslayer, helmacon, Andres
2 - Denounce Moskurg on the world stage: Andres, RAM
3 - Do not denounce Moskurg and risk an unnecessary order: helmacon, FallacyofUrist, voidslayer
1 - Focus the Wand of True Light on a Moskurg to see if it can turn it into an Arstotzkan: Andres
1 - Do not do the above order: Chiefwaffles
Post by: VoidSlayer on July 26, 2017, 09:46:52 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on August 06, 2017, 12:04:39 am
Combat for 945
Arstotzka scraps their project from last year and starts again this year learning from their past mistakes. Known as the ASAF-F44 "Avenger", it was conceived as a weapon to rival Moskurgs so-far uncontested air superiority. Two years of development went into the engine (proudly referred to as the "Kinetic Propulsion Drive" Mk. 2) and power source (known as the "Aether Reactor"), which required a fair amount of fine-tuning to get it working. The Avenger is prone to capsizing, and the Aether Reactor lives up to the name - it "reacts" quite explosively when damaged, necessitating rather thick crystal shielding. The KPD Mk. 2 is a heavily modified variant of their "Blastballs" spell, in that it uses an on-going continuous explosion inside a crystal "cup" to provide thrust. This bell-shaped cup can be tilted with spherical controls in the cockpit, allowing the Avenger to move left, right, forwards, and backwards (although turning is done through banking). The pilot sits up front in a clear crystal canopy and a gunner in the rear works an unpowered ball turret equipped with an HAC-1, though he has a field of view limited primarily upwards. The entire contraption is shaped roughly like an arrowhead and can move quite fast, though it has terrible acceleration and requires the pilots full focus to keep from going into a deadly capsizing event. For their revision Arstotzka finally fixes the "anti-magic" problem that's been plaguing their devices for decades, to an extent. Their circuits are now "hardened" against anti-magic, meaning their devices that do not rely on mages (such as the HA-1b "Mundane", R1 and Avenger, specifically) can operate successfully in anti-magic fields.
Moskurg likewise works on their air force this year with the introduction of the "Skyhawk", the next-generation air-borne artillery platform design to obsolete their Alsamma Safina. Much like the Phoenix, it is powered by four Adamantium engine clusters that provide lift and movement. It is equipped with two ballistas and a large supply of explosive ammo, but has difficulty engaging nearby targets and relies on the crew to take care of threats. It is skinny like a canoe, making it difficult to hit from a distance, but that also means it can "capsize" if the pilot isn't careful. For their revision they upgrade their Adamantium War Pegasi Scrolls to flat-out Adamantium jet engines. Using multiple inter-linking scrolls of varying size, it can provide even more thrust than the previous generation of flight-capable rugs. This only really benefits the Phoenix and Skyhawk, as smaller aircraft are already fast enough that the limiting factor is the ability of the pilots to see through the wind and perform maneuvers successfully.
The Taiga continues to burn, but not nearly as much.
The Avenger is Arstotzka's shaky step into the world of directly contesting Moskurg's air superiority, and it shows. The unpowered turret makes lining up shots on the faster Skyskiffs virtually impossible, and the primary focus is the large, lumbering Phoenix ships. If an Avenger can get close enough, the HAC-1 can punch through the Adamantium armor plating. Hitting the fuel tank doesn't really do much besides make the crew nervous; the ammo isn't explosive or heated, and Adamantium doesn't spark when hit as the temperature is constant. What is vastly more effective is hitting an engine cluster. It only takes a couple of shots before output begins to falter in a cluster, and hitting two on the same side will cause the ship to list and capsize. This tends to be unfortunate for the crew and anyone underneath, but Moskurgs Skyskiffs do a fair job at keeping them at bay and the Phoenix is usually escorted by Skyhawks. If nothing else can be said about the Avenger, then the crews will admit that the damn thing is hardy. Ballista rounds can't crack the crystal hull, and the lightning-resistive crystal requires a few lightning strikes before holes can be blasted through. Once the armor on the Aether Reactor is worn through, though, then the brilliant explosion will send shrapnel at everything in a fifty foot radius. All-in-all, it's not really good for much other than hitting the vulnerable-yet-deadly Phoenix airships and keeping them from running freely overhead. Anti-Magic Hardened Circuits are about equally as helpful, able to allow the aircraft and some of the artillery on the ground below to operate regardless of the glowing "No-Fun" field. Mages still can't cast, though, but Aethergems and circuits operate just fine.
More helpful for Moskurg than their anti-magic is their Skyhawk, which has double the rate of fire of the previous generation Alsamma Safina. Able to hit from beyond anything Arstotzka can reach, Moskurg doubles down on their "pick and chip" philosophy. Avengers are a concern though, as it takes a few lightning strikes to knock them out of the sky. If they're too close then mages need to strike at the pilot or gunner, as the explosion would damage the Skyhawk. Thankfully, their massive control of the weather makes it hard for Arstotzka to scramble interceptors or launch sorties, as it's nearly impossible to maintain formation in such inclement weather, so they don't really do much on that end. Moskurgs newer, better engines also allow them to fly through and over Arstotzka's field of anti-air fire, putting them out of range of gun crews on the ground below.
Arstotzka still has the advantage when it comes to melees, as more and more of their troopers begin favoring the R1 and its ability to firmly knock out an enemy soldier from range without a fight, but it still suffers from firing rate and cumbersome reloading. The Protector still suffers from the poor locomotion issues that have plagued it since conception, and like the jungle these are exacerbated by the dense pine forests. It can at least operate as a pillbox once it - inevitably - breaks down, though.
Despite the Phoenix no longer being the "kill everyone" weapon it was last year, Moskurg still has an overwhelming air advantage. As the pine forests get denser, though, this becomes less and less of a factor and battles begin to rely primarily on hand-to-hand combat. Even worse for Moskurg is the fact that Arstotzka has naval superiority in the surrounding waters (although just barely). Troops can be landed behind Moskurg lines, and with their superior infantry Arstotzka can win battle after battle.
It's a hard-fought battle, and though Moskurg is dominating in the air it's not quite enough. Arstotzka manages to push the invaders out of their homeland - but just barely.
Arstotzka regains the Taiga.
Air superiority dictates much more of the battle in the plains, however.
With close air support and the ability to hit trenches with (little) Arstotzkan opposition, Moskurg continues their roll from the desert to the north. The Avenger shines with the ability to drop explosive artillery shells, though the bombing runs are often inaccurate and limited in effect compared to Moskurgs air superiority. Combined with their navy hitting from the shores and their air force hitting from above, Arstotzka is forced to abdicate a section of ground here and give Moskurg a foothold. The R1 and Protector both show promise here, but the problems that have plagued them limit what they can do.
Moskurg gains a section of the Plains.
The Mountains surprise everyone when Moskurg storms up the slopes and regains a foothold.
Small airships shine here, most notably the Avenger and Skyskiff. With strongholds being all but obsoleted, most battles are proceeded with days of artillery barrages and air raids on choke points and defensive emplacements before being stormed. Moskurg's explosive ammo and Skyhawk put them on par with Arstotzkan artillery (which unfortunately must be lugged from one place to another by cart on the treacherous mountain trails), so the battles are decided by the better air support - which must go to Moskurg. If nothing else, the Skyskiffs are merely Cheap while the Avengers are Very Expensive, meaning that even if they were worse they would still vastly outnumber their aerial competitors. The Protector is useless in the steep inclines and narrow, rocky paths, and the Phoenix is too easy to hit from concealed positions in the mountainous ground below. Melees are infrequent, but the R1 proves to be quite useful here with its ability to shoot without standing up and flat trajectory. That doesn't decide the major battles though, so Moskurg manages to gain foothold on the mountains once again.
Moskurg has gained a section of the Mountains.
Arstotzkas Avenger struggles against the larger and better-armed Skyhawks, and the smaller and faster Skyskiffs. Moskurgs faster engines and new artillery platform lets them shell Arstotzkan ships from a safe distance, and one by one the crystal ships sink below the waves in the frigid northern seas. This is especially bad for Arstotzka - this means that next year they will not be able to use their naval support to increase the effectiveness of their ground forces, but at least Moskurg doesn't have naval superiority.
Moskurg gains a section of shoreline in the Northern Seas. Arstotzka loses naval support for next year.
Espionage Credit!!!
Both sides make good use of their Espionage Credit this year.
Arstotzka manages get a hold of an educational scroll relating to Lucky Strike...we think. Very few of our Mathemagicians can read Moskurgian, and deciphering the religious mumbo-jumbo and separating it from the actual spellwork is a task all on its own. It'll take some time to figure out how to make it work for us, but at least now we have the blueprints for the spell.
Moskurg manages to steal a thing, which will let them do a thing if they spend some time figuring it out.
Design Credit!!!
Bjorn has been tinkering with his Aethergems for the past year, and believes he has developed something new and exciting related to that field that he wants to share with the design team. The King has agreed to finance the little venture, so this year we gain an extra Design Credit - so long as it deals with our Aethergems.
It is 946, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 946 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Behavior Rules. Please Read.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 06, 2017, 12:39:10 am
This is actually really good. The Aethergem design credit. This means we can make a much more powerful device.
I say we use our design credit first, then we can use it in our actual design.
Design: Aether Reactor Mk. 2 (Using Design Credit)
Really, "Mark 2" is such a paltry name for such a huge improvement. The Aether Reactor is the realization of our Aethergems' potential. It's, of course, based off of the titular Aether Reactor currently located inside the Avenger.
Spoiler: Fluff (click to show/hide)
Fluff SuperTL;DR - Instead of making Aethergems out of "Magegem + glued-on AM Charm" we just make a single crystal-glass (large) Aether"gem". Which should be a huge improvement.
Armor - Standard layered crystal armor roughly equal to the Mark 1 reactor.
Size & Appearance - "Default" size is generally the shape (sphere) and size of the Mark 1 reactor to allow for autoretrofitting. But since it's made out of crystal the shape should be able to change for its demands easily.
Weight - Variable? All that really matters is that we're getting much more power compared to the same weight.
Power Generation - Grreatly increased over the Mark 1. Like greatly so.
Power Storage - Low priority but general goal is at least equal to the Mark 1 reactor. The greatly increased generation should mean we don't really have to focus on storage, but we aren't trying to explicitly sacrifice storage here. It's just not a focus of the design.
Expense - As we will no longer be using the Expensive Anti-magic charms, expense should optimistically be Expensive instead of Very Expensive.
TL;DR: - Make a large single (hopefully Expensive) Aethergem to use as a central reactor in our magitech and to hopefully be refitted into the Avenger for a huge improvement in acceleration (increase power to the KPD!).
If our designs go well, then we should use our revision on our shells. If we theoretically eliminate their artillery hard counter, then we will start winning. They only outrange us because of the range debuff they're giving us. Alternatively we can fix the Protector as it can bypass that limitation if it actually works. We just need to fix its transmission/etc. issues for it to actually be a useful weapon.
The Reactor can actually be a really useful design. Can be used for new/better guns, aircraft, vehicles, and much much more.
Quote
DESIGN
1 - Aether Reactor Mk. 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7528391#msg7528391): Chiefwaffles (Use Design Credit)
EDIT: Unsure about what to do regarding Lucky Strike. I don't think it's a good idea to (this turn at least) spend a design or even revision (dunno how hard it'd be) just to get Lucky Strike. Our main problem isn't hitting the enemy with the bullet, but rather our main problem is the process of getting the opportunity to even shoot at the opponent in the first place.
Maybe if we make a new gun we can try incorporating lucky strike into it?
Post by: RAM on August 06, 2017, 04:21:07 am
"I told you so". So be fair, I said that wind would be a huge problem for our aircraft, and it was not mentioned once. I... I really don't understand that at all, but such is life in WandRWorld... But still, we tried to beat them in the air and it crashed and burned. We coulda worked up some high-density munitions and been keeping them at bay but, oh well. We are neck deep into this mess now and may as well try to break even with yet another design sent after the two bad ones we already lost. Agree on getting the gem design first though, might have some relevance to the design...
Gemerators
We have some really intense magic consumers with very low storage requirements. The "universal magic activation device" philosophy of the aethergem just doesn't even slightly match our practical needs. Fortunately, this is easily rectified. We completely remove the magems from the apparatus and instead densely layer the accumulation devices in an array with almost no space between them(Hopefully they have a nice diamond shape that interlocks perfectly, even if they have to have alternating orientations.). This will, by itself, remove the propagation of explosions as there is no stored magic to detonate. Further, it will massively increase the density of magic generation per a unit of volume, possibly by an order of magnitude, because it no longer requires a bulky magem and is no longer a compound shape of multiple units that cannot fit together precisely.
At this point we get clever. In addition to circuitry that links all the magems to a single magical outlet to be passed onto other circuits, we also add a linkage system so that multiple gemerators can be inserted into one another to create an almost seamless single unit with redundant connections. But most impressively, we are working on a method to synchronise the magical absorption. By activating them in a progressive "pulse", combined with their extremely dense packaging they create a very sudden and powerful suction "burst" with no prior precedent. We hope that this will pull much "deeper" into the great beyond to pull magic from much denser "regions"(dubbed "The World Tree" though the source of that term eludes us) to produce a much greater magical output.
- Man-transportable boxes.
- Interlocking to produce cohesive gemerator arrays of any size.
- much denser packaging of magical generation than aethergems can ever offer.
- No magical storage to explode.
- uses more concentrated effect to "penetrate deeper into more dense magic" to multiply the effectiveness of its already greatly concentrated generation apparatus.
This is the design we should have had ages ago. There is no reason to have a room full of batteries on an aircraft which runs most of its equipment constantly. A single magem on the gun an a couple here-and-there to smooth over usage fluctuations would be plenty. We don't need a whole room and this will get us far more generating efficiency than any battery-based design could ever hope to achieve.
Castals
We formalise a technique for imprinting a known spell into a circuit and integrating an aethergem into it. This allows us to put any castable spell into a gem(of sufficient capacity to cast it once) and then allow anyone to cast that spell. This can be given to common soldiers to allow them to operate flare spells and such, or given to our mages they can cast a spell through the castal instead of castign it personally, allowing them to cast within antimagic fields.
Living magic
Mathemagic was born from our crystal magics, which were derived from our basic conjurations. These included a wasp spell. The power to summon forth a spontaneously thinking being is nothing short of miraculous, and with our mathemagical expertise we can go back and unravel the basic elements of this ancient spell, which we already have experience of altering.
We essentially take an aethergem and summon into it a pure mind, with none of the physical manifestations of such weighing it down so it is composed of pure magic. Once this mind is summoned, it can perpetuate its own spell from the energies of the gem into which it was summoned. When the gem it inhabits is connected to circuitry, it can then spread into that circuitry and direct magic through it as it pleases, granting it the ability to operate any circuitry-based device it is attached to.
Initially, we only expect to attain an increase in efficiency, as it will e able to precisely control the amount of energy provided to any given component of a circuit thus near-perfectly attuning usage to desired effect, and negating overkill. In the longer term, we hope to produce magical devices that rely upon such fine control that would not otherwise be operable. and to have fully-automated systems with no human intervention required.
Broad Absorption Spectrum System
We take the common aethergem, and apply our old antimagic charm knowhow, in reverse. In addition to operating as an aethergem, it can also absorb heat and sound and convert it into magic. Want a fire snuffed? Point the B.A.S.S. at it and press the button. Presto! Flash-frozen flames(Why yes crying physicist, that IS frozen plasma, a wizard did it!)! Want a silent artillery position? Just point the B.A.S.S. at the barrel and *Conspicuously absent boom!*! Need a mid-flight top-me-up? Just jump onto an enemy airship, stick the B.A.S.S. onto a piece of perpetually-warm adamantium, and find out what happens when you extract all the heat-energy from an infinitely-warm object!(Vacating the local atmosphere is advised)
The Unicaru
We have seen the horrible stability of the misguided "avenger". and the solution was blindingly simple. Anyone who has held a suit of armour knows that it is far more easily held upright when grasped from the top than the bottom. The Unicaru features a "mohawk" of crystal along its top-central line, attached to a "cowl" of crystal containing the propulsion effect, which constantly pushes the cowl upwards, lifting the craft. The weight of the remainder of the craft ensures its lower position.
To achieve this, we refine our existing propulsion into a pure "force film" that perfectly conforms to a surface and pushes that surface without any other interaction. There is no exhaust typical of an explosion, instead the surface will be pushed away from this film regardless of its surroundings. This in turn allows the ceiling cowl to fit very snugly around the vessel.
Force-film panels around the rear of the craft allow rapid steering. The main-body is tear-drop shaped with the "ball" at the front and a tube sticking into the tail, with the tail being geometric rather than rounded, to ease the steering operation. (A more precise control over the circuitry would be required to make use of a curved steering surface.) As nice as it would be to have the full efficiency of a force-film "sail" providing thrust, such just isn't practical with the available surface area. Instead, inverted force-film is projected into the "tube" with minor ventilation to allow air to pass through the film, in one direction only due to the film's effects. This forces a great air-flow into the tube which is propelled backwards along the craft's centre. In addition, a handful of magems are stored in the tube to power brief bursts of the outdated Kinetic Propulsion Drive which, while horribly unstable and inefficient, would provide a great burst of power when operated within a tube like that. granting brief bursts of speed when needed.
The pilot lays down near the underside of the craft, on a leather hammock with leg-braces with their head raised due to a mild incline. They operate the rear steering panels with a four-way lever, and have a pair of two-way levers to control the force of the lifting cowl and main thrust, with a big red button to activate and deactivate the burst-propulsion. The pilot enters through a hatch on the floor of the gunner's booth, in which the gunner stands, wearing a leather harness hanging from the ceiling. the harness is on a simple weighted pulley, with a weighted anchor on a leather strap going through a pulley. this is very simple, being a rope through a hole with things attached to either end to stop it being pulled through. The anchor goes into its own separate shaft and thus cannot enter the cabin. Thus the harness reduces the gunner's effective weight, easing their ability to stand and bracing them against falling. The gunner shoots a standard hac one that is forward-mounted through a hinge(derived from our steam-transmission mechanisms) at its centre-of-gravity allowing it to be easily and quickly aimed. Communication between pilot and gunner is achieve through a simple string mechanisms where identically-labelled tabs are attached to the same string, allowing a pull on one to be seen upon the other. The power systems are mounted behind the gunner, around the central thrust-tube.
I encourage people to submit adjusted or added-to redesigns of this proposal. I would be rather off-put, however, by objectively inferior redesigns of this proposal. And example would be submitting a less ambitious summoning to counter a summoned vulture spell of mine. And example of an objectively inferior proposal, would be replacing an ambitious monster-vulture summons with a hawk-taming project when we have experience in summoning monsters and no experience in taming wild animals, experience in making summons more dangerous and no experience in making tame animals more dangerous, and the end result is a tiny, low-altitude hawk instead of an already large vulture with insane altitude tolerances and the only possible reason to favour hawks would be a slavish devotion to real-world limitations. When a project is more difficult, provides less effect, provides less exploitable discoveries, and has fewer prospects for further development, then it is objectively inferior.
Post by: Kadzar on August 06, 2017, 04:50:21 am
Quote
DESIGN
1 - Aether Reactor Mk. 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7528391#msg7528391): Chiefwaffles (Use Design Credit)
1 - Gemerators (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7528456#msg7528456): (Use Design Credit)
Post by: andrea on August 06, 2017, 04:50:49 am
edit: also, not sure about the pule and synchronization thing. saying we reach deeper to get more power nice, but forcing ourselves in a pulsed acquisition is concerning. Especially having removed the power storage.
edit2: also, magegems are the smallest part of it. until the last revision, AAA aethergems were generating just as much power as the bigger ones, while mounting a simple AAA magegem that is as big as a button. Yet aethergems were still bulky, showing that we won't get an order of magnitude reduction just by removing the magegem
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 06, 2017, 05:18:20 am
It further paves the way for universal power. We don't need to waste effort and time on modularity when we don't need modularity in the first place. Imagine when we can just have our soldiers' armor just power their weapons without need for this modularity. The Reactor focuses on power.
We need power. We can easily downscale the reactor, and the principles learned from designing it should be of great aid to anything Aethergem-related that even doesn't use the reactor in the first place.
Also the point of the Reactor is to focus on magic generation instead of storage. I'd just like to point that out.
Also RAM.
Pendulum Rocket Fallacy. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendulum_rocket_fallacy)
Post by: RAM on August 06, 2017, 07:34:53 am
Oh. right, pendulums, I was going to have a righting thing but got distracted going back and forth with the other proposals. No time to fix it right now, gtg.
Ehh, I would say that it is a combination. The magems are like a bomb, and the aetheric accumulators are like a detonator. You take out the detonator, then most things won't set off the bomb, if you take out the bomb, then the detonator doesn't make a large explosion. Now that is the case for bombs, in this instance, there is zero explosive in the detonator, it is the magic that explodes, the crystals just don't have that much energy in them without it. So removing the magical storage should stop it from exploding more than the traces of magic that are channelled through it, resulting in a single burst crystal rather than a chain-reaction of gems setting off gems. I guess I could be wrong, I didn't consider that the magems are not explosive, but the theory still seems sound.
The synchronisation thing is meant to be an initialisation effect, once it is started it should continue to access the "deeper" connection continuously as normal. It just emits the pulse when starting up. I hope I made that clear but I should probably rephrase it.
I, umm, admit that I am not keeping track of things well in terms off size. The only reference that I could find was of aethergems being the size of a forearm, but with no reference to which variety that even was...
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 06, 2017, 10:35:49 am
Our engineers have figured out how the lucky strike spell works and can now apply the effect in a hardened, gem powered magic circuit. The device can be attached to a cannon or even worn on the wrist/upper arm by a soldier and touched to a rifle and applies it's effect to make the weapon supernaturally accurate.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 06, 2017, 10:47:34 am
Anyways.
Quote
DESIGN
2 - Aether Reactor Mk. 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7528391#msg7528391): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist (Use Design Credit)
1 - Gemerators (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7528456#msg7528456): RAM (Use Design Credit)
Should significantly help our Avengers.
Also... do we still have our spare expense credit? Because Expensive as opposed to Very Expensive Avengers could really tip the balance.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 06, 2017, 04:03:39 pm
Potential Design: Luckshield
Most of our effort here is spent finishing the deciphering of Moskurg's Lucky Strike. Though we don't need to bother making a Lucky Strike spell. We just need to decipher enough to get the "Lucky" part.
Once this is done, we use the principles of magic learned with devices such as the anti-magic charm (where we used the laws of magic to create the AM field) in order to create a "luck field". Now, unfortunately, we can't aim for general all-encompassing luck because we simply aren't experienced enough with Lucky Strike. However, luck involving projectiles is close enough to Lucky Strike to hopefully be plausible.
The field is quite small and if needed we can put multiple Luckshields on a single object if one is too small of a field. But as long as the target is in the field, projectiles will be effected regardless of their distance from the field.
The Luckshield is actually an AAethergem. As the effect is constant, we hope to keep low power consumption by using as much "passive"-type magic as possible. It should be distributed to important individuals and weapons, such as Avengers, Mundane emplacements, and more.
The Luckshield simply causes projectiles aimed at anyone inside the field to tend to miss a lot more. We still aren't quite sure how it works (which is quite shameful for us) as all we're trying to do is to reverse the effects of Lucky Strike then have it work in a field. Though we should be closer to knowing how it works with this!
TL;DR: We make an AAethergem-powered luck field that basically does the opposite of Lucky Strike. It's much harder to hit anyone inside the field.
@Fallacy: Yep. I'd rather wait until after everything in this turn to apply the expense credit if at all, though. The thing about the Avenger is that if we design a new one, then the expense credit no longer applies to the new one.
Post by: helmacon on August 06, 2017, 11:05:47 pm
Use design action to acquire lucky strike (should help our aircraft peg those pesky sky hawks, should help our artillery hit aerial targets from range too)
Use revision to make the R1 auto loading.
Post by: Andres on August 07, 2017, 12:34:48 am
Quote
DESIGNThe Gemerator has some interesting ideas, but my philosophy is to generally make existing technologies usable first before doing other things.
3 - Aether Reactor Mk. 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7528391#msg7528391): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist (Use Design Credit)
1 - Gemerators (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7528456#msg7528456): RAM (Use Design Credit)
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: evictedSaint on August 07, 2017, 10:58:07 am
Post by: evictedSaint on August 07, 2017, 04:24:14 pm
Although no cheaper than the previous generation of reactors, the Aether Reactor Mk. 2 represents a step forward in magical power generation that can operate magical equipment sans mage.
It is roughly still the size of six adults standing in a tight 2x3 group, but the energy output is the result of a more finely developed and tightly-integrated Aethergem array system. The Aethergems are constructed whole-sale out of our proprietary crystal glass with nickel and crystal wire components to hold the carefully-constructed spellwork for each, then arranged in a circle like the spokes of a wheel. The circle allows each gem to work in tandem with its neighbor and opposing gem, which then amplifies the magical output. These "wheels" are then stacked to about six feet tall and linked together. The result is a single "axel"in which magical energy can be output and channeled away to other needs.
The Aether Reactor Mk. 2 features a circuit-based energy dispellment system, which automatically converts all stored energy into a harmless, high-pitched noise whenever the circuit breaks. This results in a much louder but less violent explosion when damaged, and tests show that portions of the reactor can even be recovered for repair.
This new design should take care of most of our power requirements for most of what we design, though the complex nature and lengthy production time means the device is still Very Expensive.
And yes, we've taken the liberty of retrofitting the Avenger.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 07, 2017, 04:27:27 pm
To be sure, it's Expense, Effectiveness, Bugs, right? Or was it Effectiveness, Expense, Bugs?
Post by: evictedSaint on August 07, 2017, 04:32:35 pm
You have one additional design left.
Post by: helmacon on August 07, 2017, 05:09:47 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 07, 2017, 05:25:33 pm
The Lightning (should) be the final evolution of our aircraft, making use of all that we've learned and the new Aether Reactor Mk. 2.
The first and most important improvement is the KPD3. The KPD2 is frankly a silly way of managing flight - balancing something on a single source of thrust while also attempting to maneuver this. Why this leads to stability and acceleration issues should be extremely obvious, especially now that we've learned through doing.
Instead, we go back to the original vision. We take the constant applied thrust of the KPD2 and refine it. Via circuitry across the hull of the F45 Lightning, we can apply a constant propulsion to the entire hull, as if someone was directly holding the Lightning. Instead of using a single nozzle to focus the thrust, we have it focused by nature of the very spell. It's constant and varies to maneuver the craft. Thanks to the direct application of thrust, acceleration is greatly increased unlike the KPD2 which has to fire at strange angles that makes horizontal acceleration nearly impossible. Stability is increased because we're not trying to balance the craft on one source of thrust.
The KPD3 isn't in one location and is instead spread across the hull due to the circuitry present across the craft to manage thrust at different locations. We're optimizing it to make full use of the Mk. 2 Reactor.
We're aiming for a small focus with this design. The hull and nearly everything else should be exactly the same as the F44 Avenger. Except for one other thing - the turret. This is again lower priority but should be at least more obtainable than prior attempts due to the fact that this is one of two changes.
The new turret should optimally make use of the KPD3. The turret gunner has a set of controls controlling localized and minor KPD3 thrusting to aim the turret. The AS-HAC-1 is present and should optimally be again increased to 20mm, but that is the lowest priority of this.
KPD3 - Focus on making the "original" KPD intention. Circuitry across the hull manages a constant propulsion and tweaks it to move the craft around. The direct nature of the thrust should massively help with acceleration, and the thrust on every part of the hull as if it were being held makes stability much easier than trying to "balance" on the nozzle of the KPD2. Optimized to take advantage of the Mk. 2 Reactor's power output.
Turret - Lower priority. Uses a localized very-low-power KPD3 to quickly and easily rotate+aim the turret with a set of controls. If possible, upscale the AS-HAC-1 to 20mm.
Everything else - Should remain the same as the F44 Avenger to allow for focus on the KPD3 (and turret).
TL;DR: Make a good aircraft by fixing the thrust then turret.
Lucky Strike isn't helpful when we don't have the range to get there. We need air superiority now. We need a vehicle to deliver the lucky strike-enhanced projectiles first. We can use an expense credit on this (or better yet, the Mk. 2 reactor which should be the bottleneck) to get it down to Expensive.
Quote
DESIGN
1 - ASAF-F45 "Lightning": Chiefwaffles
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 07, 2017, 05:30:17 pm
Quote
DESIGN
2 - ASAF-F45 "Lightning": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
Post by: helmacon on August 07, 2017, 05:47:03 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 07, 2017, 06:37:30 pm
A lot, if not all, of the stability + acceleration issues comes from the fact that we tried to make a dogfighter by sticking a single vectoring rocket engine on the underside of the Avenger. It's like if you put guns on the Saturn V and infinite fuel then sent it to the front lines as a dogfighter.
Post by: RAM on August 07, 2017, 09:30:13 pm
Does something that big even fit inside a protector?
Do they work if placed on their sides?
The Unicaru
We have seen the horrible stability of the misguided "avenger". and the solution was blindingly simple. Anyone who has held a suit of armour knows that it is far more easily held upright when grasped from the top than the bottom. The Unicaru features a "mohawk" of crystal along its top-central line, attached to a "cowl" of crystal containing the propulsion effect, which constantly pushes the cowl upwards, lifting the craft. The weight of the remainder of the craft ensures its lower position.
To achieve this, we put the vast majority of our efforts into refining our existing propulsion. Given that everything else basically amount's to bodywork or circuitry, it should not be difficult to dedicate massive focus onto the propulsion system. the hoped results are a pure "force film" that perfectly conforms to a surface and pushes that surface dynamically without any other interaction. There is no exhaust typical of an explosion, instead the surface will be pushed by this film regardless of its surroundings. This in turn allows the ceiling cowl to fit very snugly around the vessel and continuously propel it in an absolute up direction.
Force-film panels around the rear of the craft allow rapid steering, directing a relative left/right/pitch/yaw. The main-body is tear-drop shaped with the "ball" at the front and a tube sticking into the tail, with the tail being geometric rather than rounded, to ease the steering operation. (A more precise control over the circuitry would be required to make use of a curved steering surface.) As nice as it would be to have the full efficiency of a force-film "sail" providing thrust, such just isn't practical without making the craft an needlessly large target. Instead, force-film is projected into the "tube" with their propulsion set to a relative backwards. In addition, a handful of magems are stored in the tube to power brief bursts of the outdated Kinetic Propulsion Drive which, while horribly unstable and inefficient, would provide a great burst of power when operated within a tube like that. granting brief bursts of speed when needed.
The pilot lays down near the underside of the craft, on a leather hammock with leg-braces with their head raised due to a mild incline. They operate the rear steering panels with a four-way lever, and have a pair of two-way levers to control the force of the lifting cowl and main thrust, with a big red button to activate and deactivate the burst-propulsion. The pilot enters through a hatch on the floor of the gunner's booth, in which the gunner stands, wearing a leather harness hanging from the ceiling. the harness is on a simple weighted pulley, with a weighted anchor on a leather strap going through a pulley. this is very simple, being a rope through a hole with things attached to either end to stop it being pulled through. The anchor goes into its own separate shaft and thus cannot enter the cabin. Thus the harness reduces the gunner's effective weight, easing their ability to stand and bracing them against falling. The gunner shoots a standard hac one that is forward-mounted through a hinge(derived from our steam-transmission mechanisms) at its centre-of-gravity allowing it to be easily and quickly aimed. Communication between pilot and gunner is achieve through a simple string mechanisms where identically-labelled tabs are attached to the same string, allowing a pull on one to be seen upon the other. The power systems are mounted behind the gunner, either side of the central thrust-tube.
After wasting so much time on aircraft we now need a dedicated air-superiority fighter in order to recoup our losses. the Avenger's fighter-bomber nature just doesn't fit on this battlefield as anything other than support, although it should serve quite well as close air support... The lightning fails to change its role at all. The propulsion is a constant pressure over the whole thing, we would need a computer to handle all the fine adjustments required to control it when the entire surface is a control surface. I proposed a computer, but we were too busy trying to protect a generator that was sufficiently armoured that it didn't matter and is still too big and expensive to actually use.
Roll And Shoot Heaps
A complete redesign of the Protector design. The rear wheels are replaced with a single roller. The passenger space is largely filled by the rear wheel and what remains is used for ammunition storage and magic generators. The front wheels are bigger and sturdier with a higher ground-clearance but the rear wheel can pull it back even if the front wheels break. It has only a single turret, though that turret is hopefully powered using the propulsion system from the Avenger. The turret contains a Mundane refitted to work from the much greater power generation of the vehicle's generator stacks. The top armour is heavier and the wheels have protective cowls and the doors(now instead mounted on both sides) are refined to more easily braced against external intrusion and can be levered back into a tight seal to protect against external conditions such as fire.
Flying is difficult and they are better than us at it and will continue to be so. There is no such thing as "final evolution of our aircraft" as whatever we do they can improve upon and nothing we do will ever set a permanent standard. We really need our guns to be fast, but mobile at least is a start and this would get us that. If someone proposes a properly fast gun wagon, or a means of overcoming their range advantage, such as heavier rounds, then I will probably vote for that, or state why I don't think that it will work.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 07, 2017, 10:33:37 pm
But more importantly, the Mk. 2 is more stable in general. I asked evicted on Discord and got an affirmative on that. So not only is it less lethal to its occupants + craft when it explodes, but it explodes less. Basically, we've removed a major flaw in the Avenger - it no longer has a huge weak spot begging to be hit by Lucky Strike. Again, that was a major flaw.
As for space-efficiency, this is still the most space-efficient Aethergem design because of the spokes. If the spokes hurt the design, they wouldn't be in there.
It'd definitely fit in the protector, but obviously isn't the right size to be retrofitted in.
And of course they work when placed on their sides. That's like asking if a wire transmits electricity if it's on its side.
No, the Avenger is not a fighter/bomber. It's a fighter.
A bad fighter, but it's a fighter. The bombs (unlike the Haast!) were placed so the Avenger could contribute to the ground theatre in some capacity and for use against the larger Moskurg airships. And as a minor note, I believe the design proposal called for just one bomb.
The F45 Lightning is also a fighter. Instead of wasting effort on trying to reinvent the wheel and make a whole new craft and (to some extent) propulsion method, we just spend our effort on refining the Avenger. It has the potential to be a great craft and it's problems are concentrated into single spots, making it easy for a design to address them.
The small scope of the Lightning should mean it'll do a lot better on the stuff it does focus on. It doesn't try to make a new craft body because we've already made a good one.
Hell, in the combat report:
nothing else can be said about the Avenger, then the crews will admit that the damn thing is hardy. Ballista rounds can't crack the crystal hull, and the lightning-resistive crystal requires a few lightning strikes before holes can be blasted through. Once the armor on the Aether Reactor is worn through, though, then the brilliant explosion will send shrapnel at everything in a fifty foot radius.That's right.
The best part about the Avenger is its hull. So we shouldn't throw that away. Better yet, we just fixed the number one integrity problem - the Aether reactor is no longer such a huge weak spot.
Post by: RAM on August 08, 2017, 12:27:41 am
"The Avenger is shot out of the sky, but the crew and wreck are later recovered." is complete nonsense. The Avenger is not a glider. We do not know anything about gliders, and even if we did the enemy has too much wind control for gliding to be practical. If the enemy hits the power supply, then the circuits stop working. If the circuits stop working, then the lift vanishes. If the lift vanishes then it drops like a brick, which would be lethal, there are zero survivors from reactor losses in-flight. Possibly take-offs and landings, when they, are, like, five metres off of the ground, but from 100 metres up? They may as well be falling into lava for all the hope we have of salvaging anything. The kinetic energy of a brick falling from such a height, in the proportions that transfer into the structure of the vessel and occupants? Well, the amount of ship and crew that you have is no longer an integer...
"The bombs (unlike the Haast!) were placed so the Avenger could contribute to the ground theatre in some capacity"
Uh, seriously? That is almost exactly why the bombs were fitted onto the Haast. Except in the Haast's favour it is also able to carry drop-tanks and torpedoes. Utility items that help with dogfighting and heavy weapons that do not rely upon initial kinetic energy and thus lose much of their effectiveness when dropped instead of fired. As for use against airships? Do we even have confirmation that we can fly higher than them? What little we DO know is that all theur guns are on the top. Flying over them is not a great plan...
And also, it would be sort of nice to avoid spending four designs and at least one revision on something and then look back and think "we ended up with something that was supposed to be easy in a single design"... Not that it is that the third attempt is necessarily going to go any better than the first two...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 08, 2017, 12:31:50 am
Quote
And also, it would be sort of nice to avoid spending four designs and at least one revision on something and then look back and think "we ended up with something that was supposed to be easy in a single design"... Not that it is that the third attempt is necessarily going to go any better than the first two...
Kind of like the Hybrid Cannon? Y'know, our first cannon that was worse than a longbow in every way when we first designed it?
Running away from a design because it isn't immediately the ultimate thing in that category would be pretty silly.
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 08, 2017, 02:42:59 am
A new version of the protector turned from APC to full tank. It uses the new reactor to power the internal detonation engine, cannons and cold producing circuits in it's armor layer. The two innovations are fully steel wheels and a carriage reinforced on the outside with a triple layer of crystal armor in thick defensive plating, lightning redirecting circuits and cooling circuits.
The vehicle mounts a full HA1-b, able to fire once every three minutes, and two swivel mounted HAC-1 for close fire support. All three are controlled, aimed and reloaded from inside the Destroyer.
A crew of 4-6 mans the vehicle with any extra space turned over to ammunition.
Post by: Andres on August 08, 2017, 02:44:40 am
Quote
DESIGN
3 - ASAF-F45 "Lightning": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Andres
Glory to Arztotzka.
Post by: RAM on August 08, 2017, 03:26:06 am
DestroyerWhat is the advantage of fully steel wheels? Also note that we just lost the mountains, so steel will be more expensive than it was. Now, I doubt that the G.M. will pay enough attention to the cost of steel for it to matter, and to be fair, the wheels may be large and bulky, but there are not that many of these things so it is probably within reasonable limits, but it is a concern.
The two innovations are fully steel wheels and a carriage reinforced on the outside with a triple layer of crystal armor in thick defensive plating, lightning redirecting circuits.
The vehicle mounts a full HA1-b, able to fire once every three minutes, and two swivel mounted HAC-1 for close fire support. All three are controlled, aimed and reloaded from inside the Destroyer.
Where do lightning redirecting circuits come from? Are they the lightning rods from the old armour? That really should work, their lightning is supposed to "not do anything impossible" and going through a human while failing to go through a metal bar just next to them ranks quite highly on the impossibility scale, but still, magic lightning has its own rules, well, it isn't magic lightning, but it was started by magic, and is controlled by magic, even though the magic is not present when it is being controlled... But regardless, it has its own rules, so whatever "impossible" is it doesn't include bypassing the effective shortest path... So it is doubtful that simple lightning rods will work, and I am not familiar with lightning redirection as circuitry, but I may have missed it. Or is this a new element that is being introduced in the design?
I could see controlling, aiming, and reloading a swivel mount from inside a vehicle being difficult. Is there any elaboration on how this would work?
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 08, 2017, 04:14:08 am
I personally prefer true strike amulets but no one seems to want that.
Post by: andrea on August 08, 2017, 04:19:53 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 08, 2017, 05:49:33 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 08, 2017, 05:51:54 am
Post by: andrea on August 08, 2017, 06:56:01 am
Post by: evictedSaint on August 08, 2017, 11:18:53 am
Post by: andrea on August 08, 2017, 12:29:43 pm
SPS-1 Self propelled shell , "Seeker"
We have a power source. We have a propulsion system that can be activated by that power source. And our power source can explode. Why not put everything together?
The Seeker is a shell-shaped object made entirely of crystal, containing an appropriately sized aethergem reactor. On its back, there is a small version of the KPD2. Being made of crystal and not having thick armor(it still uses layered crystal for lightning protection), the Seeker should be able to fly on its own power. The big revolution is the way it is directed toward the enemy. The enemy lucky strike spell is examined and turned in circuit form. It is the spell itself that guides the nozzle to propel in the right direction, allowing the missile to follow enemy vessels. On impact, the aethergem reactor destabilizes and explodes, having removed the safety features.
Ideally, it should be small enough to be shot by a HA1, or at least small enough to be carried by an avenger although this is not a strict requirement.
basically: we scale down our aircraft technology to a small light crystall shell with a kinetic drive (lightning armor but no armor against projectiles). We use lucky strike to make sure it drives toward enemies. We remove safeties on aethergems so they explode on impact.
bonus point: if they shoot it down in flight it still explodes sending shrapnel.
Post by: RAM on August 08, 2017, 03:49:45 pm
+1 to the seeker
Post by: andrea on August 08, 2017, 03:52:17 pm
edit: some discussion happened in discord.
Mostly, some concern about the viability of lucky strike on what is a mostly autonomous projectile. Also, a suggestion to advance at the same time in the field of living magic or "Mindgems".
Basically, we would still inscribe the lucky strike in it, but also add a conjured mind of sorts, acting as a medium between the lucky strike guidance and the nozzle of the rocket.
this is the proposal as proposed: "In order to achieve this partial lucky strike, we partially replicate the mind of a wasp (thanks to our knowledge of minds and summoning!) via magic inside a solid-state Aethergem [note: just use regular Aethergem if solid-state adds complexity]. This pseudo-"Mindgem", although quite honestly nothing like a mind and more like circuitry designed for processing data, is used to take the data from Lucky Strike and interpret it into KPD2 vectoring movements."
What do you people think?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 08, 2017, 05:35:16 pm
Quote
DESIGN
3 - ASAF-F45 "Lightning": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Andres
2 - SPS-1 Self Propelled Shell "Seeker": Andrea, RAM
Post by: RAM on August 08, 2017, 05:50:09 pm
Also, that is a design all of its own, and as such adding it to a guided projectile is not impossible, but it is a bit of a risk that you might end up with neither. Adding in a derivative of the brand-new lucky-strike magic and I think it is very doomed.
Lucky strike itself is "good luck" already packaged as inherently "good". No control device is required. I can't even see what that would do. I mean, it is good luck, that is not controlled by anything nor does it communicate, it just makes good things happen. It is already a control device, it would basically be having two control devices one of which doesn't contribute any function. The computer would, what, be randomly more likely to have good ideas about where to steer? Why not just make it more likely to steer in a good direction with no middle-man?
Lucky-strike as guidance seems plausible to me. The projectile constantly deflects, due to chance, towards a desirable target. Add in a tassel or something to increase its ability to be deflected by minor influences like pressure differentials and wind squalls...
And the reactor seems, again, to be too big, so making a small one would be a new design, or at least a revision. It makes it very ambitious with little advantage over a basic aether
So, basically, my thought is that someone fed you one of their pet projects and turned your idea into something that will never work in a single design and contributes nothing to its function, but might advance their own agenda. I would avoid discord like the plague...
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 08, 2017, 05:51:25 pm
We could make computers using circuits... relatively easily, but summoning a disembodied mind? A spirit?
Post by: RAM on August 08, 2017, 07:21:06 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on August 08, 2017, 07:47:27 pm
Quote
They already completely eliminated ALL of our crystals ... they can do it again...
No, I made the call that Hard Counters aren't allowed any more. I shouldnt have let it happen in the first place, but I'm kind of a shitty GM.
Closing the vote on designs in an hour or so.
Post by: RAM on August 08, 2017, 08:40:14 pm
No, I made the call that Hard Counters aren't allowed any more.Was this announced somewhere?
Does this mean that the ballista bolts that seemed to be bouncing off of our aircraft will now be taking out chips of crystal, slowly wearing away at armour and centre-of-mass?
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Lucky Strike: Magical guidance makes a squad shoot or strike true far more often than usual. Expensive.I suppose that it is vaguely possible that it could be considered that it tells people where to shoot, but it really hasn't been playing out that way. It really isn't possible for someone to adjust their aim finely enough for it to be the difference between hitting a specific human with an arcing shot at a range too great to see at. Nor to have the reaction time to wait until a cpecific monent in an airships rocking motion. Even if it works like that it has got to be taking control of the people aiming, forcing them to trigger their ballista at just the right moment so that it unwinds at just the right rate to actually release at a specific moment so that it is at just the perfect angle... It really just doesn't work at all unless it is already a completely self-contained package with no computer translation required.
Post by: evictedSaint on August 08, 2017, 08:45:09 pm
The next generation of hovercraft, the ASAF-F45 "Lightning" features the Kinetic Propulsion Drive Mk. 3. The KPD Mk. 3 uses the entire underside of the craft as a propulsion surface rather than the bell-shaped nozzle of the KPD Mk. 2, which sacrifices efficiency for stability. The wide, flat surface generates an "on-going explosion" across the entire expanse - the distribution of this thrust can be modulated by controls in the pilots cockpit. By intensifying on one side or another the craft can roll and pitch, but must still use sweeping turns to yaw. A significant amount of thrust is lost laterally as it "leaks" around the edges of the craft, but the Aether Reactor (which dominates the center of the craft) provides enough output that the craft actually sees a performance boost over the F44. The Lightning is able to fly faster and higher than before, but acceleration is still slow - a symptom of the overall design.
The turret is still unpowered, but a flexible nickel wire pulls a portion of the energy from the reactor to the gun, allowing it to be operated by a non-magical gunner. The caliber has been upgraded from 14 mm to 20 mm, which has proportionally increased the lethality and recoil. The field of fire has not changed from -5° down to 45° up, and still must be loaded manually between each shot. The cockpit, turret, and reactor are armored thickly enough to prevent ballista rounds from penetrating, and resistive/non-resistive layering gives it some survivability against lightning strikes. Because the entire bottom surface of the craft is used to provide lift, we are unable to safely mount explosive artillery shells underneath. The craft can still capsize, but is stable enough that it doesn't require the full focus of a specially-trained pilot. Because more people can safely use it, the Lightning is merely Expensive.
Post by: RAM on August 08, 2017, 09:09:37 pm
Well it has been three dedicated design actions and numerous other assorted actions working on various support systems. We still have not beaten them at dogfighting. The latest iteration is not a multirole craft, despite getting good rolls and being stated as our final design in this series. It really isn't particularly fast, and the acceleration cuts into its agility. On the topic of dogfighting, it crashes if it tips too far, so it can't do a barrel roll... I would say that it has been confirmed as definitely impossible from a single design action. Also the hull design has been cited as a specific weakness. I think this brings my "I told you so" count up to about 3, I will try not to splurge on these, they are kind of annoying but they serve to maintain awareness so I can't bring myself to just abandon them.
Design: ASAF-F43 Interceptor
...
Difficulty - This is fairly ambitious, but definitely not impossible.
...
(can move in any direction with great speed). Then we build a small+light crystal hull around it. Then give it weapons.
Basically, a very cool multi-role aircraft. That is 100% most certainly not the Haast. Trust me.
...
The idea is to very suddenly introduce Moskurg to dogfighting then immediately beat them at it. Their aircraft is meant to quickly get in, bomb us, then get out. It's not meant for dogfighting. At all. So if we make Dogfighting a thing, we will win.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 08, 2017, 09:14:20 pm
Now, for revisions.
I'll let someone else do the revision addressing the Protectors' transmission/suspension/wheel problems if they want to. Vehicular engineering isn't exactly something I'm good at.
Revision: Crystal Ammunition Fabrication
The CAF is a simple revision to the AS-HAC-1 (and Lightning turret) as well as other weapon designs if time allows.
We take a fabricator scroll from the Crystalworks, program the appropriate shell size into it, put it in a small crystal container, then mount it to the desired weapon and wire it to the weapon's power source+circuitry if possible. The weapon's circuitry will automatically activate the CAF after generating the Blastball, and the CAF will conjure a new crystal bullet/shell into the chamber ready for firing. If the weapon does not use circuitry, then the firing mage triggers the CAF instead.
The CAF either relies on the weapon's power source and/or a mage feeding it.
The highest priority implementation of the CAF is to the Lightning's turret. Then the AS-HAC-1 and AS-R1 with equal priority.
TL;DR: Take a Crystalworks Fabricator scroll, program in the right size of bullet, then stick it to the side of a gun and wire it to that gun's circuitry and/or power if available.
Revision: KPD4
The KPD4 is a straightforward change and upgrade to the KPD3.
Instead of limiting thrust to the bottom of craft, which severely limits acceleration in any direction which isn't up as well as general agility of the craft, the KPD4 sees the application of thrust to all sides of the aircraft. Of course, this isn't as simple as "put KPD circuits on the sides and top" which is why effort needs to be spent on this, and we can't just easily do it without a second thought.
The main challenge should be acquiring finer control over the KPD's thrust output. Refining it so the kinetic thrust is more exact and focused is what will allow us to do the (easy) step of applying the circuits on all sides of the craft. This should be the transition away from "controlled explosions" to direct kinetic manipulation. With this more refined thrust application, we can then put KPD circuits on the rest of the craft.
The result should be obvious - the Lightning will gain insane improvements in acceleration because it'll be able to actually apply thrust to the desired direction, instead of angling itself so a portion of its thrust goes in the desired direction. Agility will see huge gains as well, as the Lightning will be able to move in any direction thanks to the omnidirectional thrust. The refined application of thrust should mean we can also mount bombs on the Lightning, though that'd only come into play if our engineers have a bomb-carrying Lightning design in safekeeping.
TL;DR: Make the KPD more exact and refined in its thrust so it's less "controlled explosion" and more "kinetic manipulation". With this done, we'll be able to put KPD circuits on all sides of the Lightning, allowing for omnidirectional thrust and insane improvements in acceleration+agility+etc.
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REVISIONAs for the Expense Credit, I think we should save it so we can make a really big NE-worthy design then bring it down to VE. Though I wouldn't object too much to using it on the Lightning since we can just use revisions on it instead of designing new aircraft.
1 - Crystal Ammunition Fabrication: Chiefwaffles
1 - KPD4: Chiefwaffles
EXPENSE CREDIT
1 - Don't use yet: Chiefwaffles
Post by: RAM on August 08, 2017, 10:10:27 pm
Weightite Works
We adjust a crystalworks platform to instead summon a "very dense material" ideally in the region of 10 times heavier than lead. This would ideally be implemented into our ammunition production and shipped out to our heavy guns in as large quantities as can be mustered.
Very ambitious trying to get a new material out of a revision, but we do have yonks of experience on crystalworks so it seems plausible to me. it would set us up with a really good foundation for future ammunition projects and, fundamentally, wind is what happens when the entire world is moving. The only ways to beat that are to swim against the current using guided missiles of some sort or to increase your inertia so that it takes longer for you to accelerate. Using the notably low-density crystals, for example, would be comically useless. They would get blown around much more easily. Wind spells could reduce their range more than they do for our current bullets and if they developed a sonic shield it could disrupt their cohesion causing them to shatter on impact with a much reduced penetration and much increase energy deflection.
Large Mundane-Nests of Power
We combine reactors with Mundanes in whatever proportion makes sense. Ideally we can use some sort of cable to directly transfer power, but it should be easy enough to install aethergem recharging and replacement sytems and just shuttle the gems back and forth. It should also be relatively simple to put some armour around the reactor to keep it from being destroyed. With luck this will see a dramatic increase in the rate-of-fire of Mundanes.
Small reactors
Reduce the size and weight of reactors until they can be carried by infantry, and implement a magem-recharging facility.
Post by: helmacon on August 08, 2017, 11:01:42 pm
Post by: RAM on August 09, 2017, 12:23:26 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 09, 2017, 02:22:31 am
Revision: Lucky Strike
We have taken the pseudo religious nonsense of the Moskurg scroll and translated it into proper mathemagics. It is a whole new field, and the spell itself only hits on a small part of it, but it is enough to cast it with just a little bit of hand waving at the parts we do not really understand but seem to work when we actually follow the steps.
Edit: My revision even has an insult against the enemy! It is sure to work!
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 09, 2017, 02:35:14 am
Our problem is range.
The HA1, our best weapon, fires to BLOS+1 with Blastshell+R. But ultimately, it only fires at Extreme range with the Moskurg wind debuff. Worse yet, this range is where it hits the ground. Disregarding angling, a HA1 can only shoot at a Moskurger airship if it is at Long range.
Moskurg's Ballista can reach Extreme range when placed on ground. When on an airship, a Moskurger ballistae can fire up to BLOS range when we can only fire at airships at Long range. Most of their ballistae are on Skyhawks at this point.
So, to sum it up.
Moskurg can shoot us from their airships at BLOS range.
We can shoot at their airships when they're at Long range. Their airships are never at long range.
Moskurg severely outranges us due to the range debuff and their aerial superiority.
Because of this, Moskurg is doing to us what we did to Moskurg back when we got the HA1 working. They're beating us in artillery because of their aerial superiority. Accuracy isn't a problem. Range and aerial superiority are the problems. If we can shoot down their Skyhawks using the Lightning, then the problem is solved. If we outrange them again (or at least match them in range), then the problem is solved. If we can undo the debuff then accuracy would be a bit more relevant, but still not a huge issue.
Post by: andrea on August 09, 2017, 02:55:31 am
Plus, it might help hitting their small ships even with the slow turret.
Post by: RAM on August 09, 2017, 04:31:04 am
On thing that would be fatal to use if it really were a matter of range, however, would be to use crystal ammunition. The same low density that makes it suited to heavily-armoured aircraft(large ballistae can go through a surprising amount of armour) cripples its ability to receive and maintain inertia. IF we were really having our range suppressed to such a degree, ten crystal bullets would be about the worst thing that we could do. If we could summon something heavier than crystals then it would be a decent idea...
Lucky strike, however, could benefit from mentioning heavy guns. We are unlikely to rely upon it in our small arms and while the spell doesn't mention archers, they were sort of what was applied to when it was first listed, so... Well, it wouldn't hurt to mention that it works with heavy guns. But I do think we could benefit from making it clear that we actually have the spell. It not being in a usable form will likely count against our future designs.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 09, 2017, 04:35:20 am
After some questioning on Discord, Evicted drew this little diagram:Our HA1s can fire BLOS, but that's only if they hit the ground. So when at BLOS, our HA1s cannot hit their airships. If we were to fix this, we could effectively deploy the HA1 at sea.Spoiler: Image (click to show/hide)
So it turns out the problem is not optics or angling. It's mostly just range.
Hence I think the +Range Blastshell is the best choice now. Increased range is helpful just in general, it increases the range of every cannon, and it gives us explosive ammunition. Alternatively, we could do the AM Resistance one then upgrade the range of the HA1 in a revision, but that seems wasteful.
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 09, 2017, 04:40:44 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 09, 2017, 04:47:25 am
Combat for 942
This year sees Moskurg spend their entire turn to refine their control over the storm even further with a new spell titled "Winds of Ruin". The spell essentially works by lending the intent of the casters to the storm itself, allowing the rain, snow, wind, tornados, and lightning to be focused and cast Beyond their Line of Sight. Most importantly, the spell allows the mages to focus on enemy shells flying through the air and attempt to blow them off course. This manages to blunt Arstotzka's artillery range by two levels...when the wizards casting can maintain focus long enough to use the spell to their advantage. Thankfully, unlike many of their first attempts at ambitious spells, Winds of Ruin doesn't kill their mages or drive them insane.
This came after the diagram.
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 09, 2017, 05:02:37 am
Post by: andrea on August 09, 2017, 06:54:41 am
Our current blastshells use a single burst magegem powered blastball to propel themselves. Clearly, this is now inefficient considering our recent advantages.
The ER shell replaces the magegem with a new generation aethergem and the blastball with the continuous effect currently in use in our aircrafts. The walls of the shell are made of crystal as well, making the entire thing light and able to fly on its own power for a considerable time. The safety circuit on the aethergem is deactivated shortly after firing, providing an in built explosive payload.
Target size is HA1 shells, but I like being surprised.
Basically, we use aethergems and KPD to turn our +R shell into a +RRRRRRRRRRRR shell. Accuracy will suffer at long ranges, although not as much as it would with the impulsive blast we currently use, I suspect. Being spin stabilized, on continuous thrust deviations should compensate each other.
Post by: evictedSaint on August 09, 2017, 02:48:36 pm
Post by: RAM on August 09, 2017, 04:37:39 pm
The diagram applies to bullets that lack range. They do not travel far enough. Our bullets do travel far enough, the problem is them being blown off course.Combat for 942
This year sees Moskurg spend their entire turn to refine their control over the storm even further with a new spell titled "Winds of Ruin". The spell essentially works by lending the intent of the casters to the storm itself, allowing the rain, snow, wind, tornados, and lightning to be focused and cast Beyond their Line of Sight. Most importantly, the spell allows the mages to focus on enemy shells flying through the air and attempt to blow them off course.This manages to blunt Arstotzka's artillery range by two levels...when the wizards casting can maintain focus long enough to use the spell to their advantage. Thankfully, unlike many of their first attempts at ambitious spells, Winds of Ruin doesn't kill their mages or drive them insane.
This came after the diagram.
As is made abundantly clear, the problem is accuracy, more specifically, our weapons are being blown off course, by wind. Flying machines are loiterers, they are very much subject to being blown around. reducing the density will make our projectiles more vulnerable to wind. An aircraft is much heavier than a bullet, but much more vulnerable to wind because it has a larger surface-area compared to its mass, thus lower density. The way we beat their current range reduction spell is to increase mass and reduce travel-time(or implement some sort of guidance, preferably both), and it is easier to increase mass.
Reducing the weight of our bullets will not increase their effective range against a wind-based deflection spell.
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1 Crystal Ammunition Fabrication(summoned crystal bullets): Chiefwaffles
0 KPD4(make our aircraft move slightly better somehow):
0 Weightite Works(Summon Very Heavy material):
0 Large Mundane-Nests of Power(combine reactors with mundanes):
0 Small reactors(reactors for infantry):
1 Lucky Strike(figure out the foreign spell): RAM
0 Blastshell - Extreme Range (ER)(better propellants in lighter rockets):
0 :
0 :
0 :
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 09, 2017, 04:58:27 pm
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1 Crystal Ammunition Fabrication(summoned crystal bullets): Chiefwaffles
0 KPD4(make our aircraft move slightly better somehow):
0 Weightite Works(Summon Very Heavy material):
0 Large Mundane-Nests of Power(combine reactors with mundanes):
0 Small reactors(reactors for infantry):
2 Lucky Strike(figure out the foreign spell): RAM, voidslayer
0 Blastshell - Extreme Range (ER)(better propellants in lighter rockets):
0 :
0 :
0 :
If we get lucky strike we can incorporate it directly into the next cannon or specialized cannon ball we make.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 09, 2017, 05:02:06 pm
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1 - Crystal Ammunition Fabrication(summoned crystal bullets for automatic weaponry): Chiefwaffles
1 - KPD4(Greatly improve acceleration and ability of Lightning): Chiefwaffles
0 - Weightite Works(Summon Very Heavy material):
0 - Large Mundane-Nests of Power(combine reactors with mundanes):
0 - Small reactors(reactors for infantry):
2 - Lucky Strike(figure out the foreign spell): RAM, Voidslayer
0 - Blastshell - Extreme Range (ER)(better propellants in lighter rockets):
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 09, 2017, 05:05:52 pm
Train-Deployed F45: We've realized that we can deploy the F45 Lightning from our trains with a little adjusting and specialized train cars. This means we can rapidly move F45 interceptors to wherever the enemy is, provided we have track infrastructure, then deploy the Lightning interceptors wherever we need them. Basically: aircraft carrier trains. There may be difficult due to the weight of the Lightning craft, but at this point we have the IDE and whatnot, which I don't think needs a revision to be installed in the Restless... right?
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REVISION:
1 Crystal Ammunition Fabrication(summoned crystal bullets): Chiefwaffles
0 KPD4(make our aircraft move slightly better somehow):
0 Weightite Works(Summon Very Heavy material):
0 Large Mundane-Nests of Power(combine reactors with mundanes):
0 Small reactors(reactors for infantry):
2 Lucky Strike(figure out the foreign spell): RAM, Voidslayer
0 Blastshell - Extreme Range (ER)(better propellants in lighter rockets):
1 Train-Deployed F45: FallacyofUrist
SPARE EXPENSE CREDIT:
1 - Use on Lightning: FallacyofUrist
We'll be able to deploy swarms of Lightning aircraft(from Very Expensive down to Expensive and now to Normal) from our fast-moving trains. More improvements to our Restless trains may be in order if we do this.
I do agree we should get Lucky Strike, but I don't think a revision is something that'll work for something we can't even cast yet.
Post by: andrea on August 09, 2017, 05:20:39 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 09, 2017, 05:23:43 pm
Second is the fact that the trains they ride on won't be as much affected by Moskurg's wind control, stopping them from just blowing our Lightnings out of the sky before reaching their destination.
Post by: andrea on August 09, 2017, 05:25:25 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 09, 2017, 05:29:35 pm
And yeah; fast but low acceleration. But you couuuld fix that with the KPD4!
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REVISION
1 - Crystal Ammunition Fabrication(summoned crystal bullets for automatic weaponry): Chiefwaffles
1 - KPD4(Greatly improve acceleration and ability of Lightning): Chiefwaffles
0 - Weightite Works(Summon Very Heavy material):
0 - Large Mundane-Nests of Power(combine reactors with mundanes):
0 - Small reactors(reactors for infantry):
2 - Lucky Strike(figure out the foreign spell): RAM, Voidslayer
0 - Blastshell - Extreme Range (ER)(better propellants in lighter rockets):
1 - Train-Deployed F45: FallacyofUrist
EXPENSE CREDIT:
1 - Spare Expense Credit: Chiefwaffles
1 - Use on Lightning: Fallacyofurist
Vote for CAF instead! We'd finally get automatic weapons!
Though I'd prefer the KPD4 but I don't think people are going to vote for it.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 09, 2017, 06:16:48 pm
Whatever this is called.
Each player has two options. Change their vote from their preference, or keep it.
If both keep their vote, something not their preference(trying to make Lucky Strike work with a revision) occurs. 0 points.
If one changes their vote and the other keeps, the player that keeps their vote on their preference gains +10 and the player that changed it gains +5.
If both players change their vote, 0 points like the first.
Effectively, nobody wants to change their vote because they think their own revision is better and want to maximize benefit, but if nobody changes their vote, something non-preferable(Lucky Strike revision being passed) occurs.
Break the cycle. Change your vote.
... fine.
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REVISIONI think it's more likely to work out than the CAF which is a jump from a factory to a single device(and wouldn't even give us automatic weaponry, just much faster reload time).
1 - Crystal Ammunition Fabrication(summoned crystal bullets for automatic weaponry): Chiefwaffles
2 - KPD4(Greatly improve acceleration and ability of Lightning): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
0 - Weightite Works(Summon Very Heavy material):
0 - Large Mundane-Nests of Power(combine reactors with mundanes):
0 - Small reactors(reactors for infantry):
2 - Lucky Strike(figure out the foreign spell): RAM, Voidslayer
0 - Blastshell - Extreme Range (ER)(better propellants in lighter rockets):
0 - Train-Deployed F45:
EXPENSE CREDIT:
1 - Spare Expense Credit: Chiefwaffles
1 - Use on Lightning: Fallacyofurist
My views on the expense credit are unchanged. Think of how amazing a normal cost Lightning would be! Spam would solve most of our issues!
Post by: Andres on August 09, 2017, 06:57:14 pm
Quote
REVISION
1 - Crystal Ammunition Fabrication(summoned crystal bullets for automatic weaponry): Chiefwaffles
1 - KPD4(Greatly improve acceleration and ability of Lightning): Chiefwaffles
0 - Weightite Works(Summon Very Heavy material):
0 - Large Mundane-Nests of Power(combine reactors with mundanes):
0 - Small reactors(reactors for infantry):
3 - Lucky Strike(figure out the foreign spell): RAM, Voidslayer
0 - Blastshell - Extreme Range (ER)(better propellants in lighter rockets):
1 - Train-Deployed F45: FallacyofUrist
EXPENSE CREDIT:
1 - Spare Expense Credit: Chiefwaffles
1 - Use on Lightning: Fallacyofurist
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 09, 2017, 07:04:09 pm
Quote
REVISION
1 - Crystal Ammunition Fabrication(summoned crystal bullets for automatic weaponry): Chiefwaffles
2 - KPD4(Greatly improve acceleration and ability of Lightning): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
0 - Weightite Works(Summon Very Heavy material):
0 - Large Mundane-Nests of Power(combine reactors with mundanes):
0 - Small reactors(reactors for infantry):
3 - Lucky Strike(figure out the foreign spell): RAM, Voidslayer, Andres
0 - Blastshell - Extreme Range (ER)(better propellants in lighter rockets):
0 - Train-Deployed F45:
EXPENSE CREDIT:
1 - Spare Expense Credit: Chiefwaffles
1 - Use on Lightning: Fallacyofurist
How do people keep on messing up the votes?
Anyways.
Currently literally the only thing challenging Moskurg's aerial and artillery dominance is the Avenger. And I'm not going to bother addressing RAM's nonsense regarding the range debuff, as I'm sure people already know that's false.
The Lightning uses a breech-loaded cannon and has poor acceleration. It needs to destroy two engines with multiple hits per engine. Even if every single shot hits the engine every time, that's still approximately four different shots. All with a breech-loaded cannon. Against an armed opponent. Which is faster and more agile than you. And with fighters swarming you.
We need better agility and rate of fire first.
We should wait until we can get rid of their range debuff then apply Lucky Strike. If we do it now, we give Moskurg time to prepare for it.
Also, it won't work at all this turn.
Guess what they have? Extremely effective anti-magic.
Guess what we'd get even with a 6 on a Lucky Strike revision? A spell. Our wizards would have to cast it in person and we would not have it in circuits, meaning it'd be vulnerable to their antimagic and thus largely useless.
Post by: RAM on August 09, 2017, 07:40:48 pm
Wind is air in motion. This is not so much a matter of opposing forces as it is a matter of throwing inertia at each other. Due to its low density, the amount of air that a bullet encounters is relatively low, and thus the amount of inertia pushing it to the side is relatively low. In order to keep the mass(and thus inertia) of encountered air low, the effective relevant cross-section of the bullet should be small. This also applies to penetration, the smaller the bullet is, the less armour it needs to move in order to make a hole. Meanwhile, the bullet has its own inertia, which is based solely upon its mass.
In short, we want as much bullet as possible to pass through as little air as possible. Crystals are low-density compared to steel. That means that the same mass of crystal encounters more air due to being larger, or that the same volume of crystal is more easily veered off due to reduced mass.
There is also the argument that lighter objects move faster, and that spend less time in the air, and thus encounter less air due to the air travelling sideways and thus encountering the bullet regardless of whether the bullet is in motion. This is completely undone by the fact that a proportional increase in velocity will produce a proportional reduction in travel time and require a greater than proportional increase in force. There is also an inverse economy of scale in firing chambers and barrels. Doubling the thickness of a chamber in order to facilitate a more powerful charge requires much more material if it is applied to the outside of the chamber than to the inside, due to the greater circumference at the outside than at the inside. Thus, a smaller bullet with the same mass can have its velocity increase more easily than a lighter bullet with the same circumference, assuming that you do not want your cannon to explode...
A heavier bullet will, however, offer more resistance to being propelled out of a cannon than a lighter bullet will. Given that the bullet, even if quite heavy, will still have by far the lowest resistance to receiving force of the whole mechanism, this is basically a good thing. A slight loss of efficiency in relative power transfer is easily recovered by a much greater opportunity to receive power.
Crystal bullets would be a significant upgrade to wind-based defences against bullets. Our current primary problem is wind-based defences to bullets. Crystal ammunition would actually be bad for us, regardless of what it does to rate of fire.
Considering that our Mundanes are already limited in their rate of fire due to power shortages, it seems reasonable to assume that this is also a factor for our other cannons, given that a single wizard can contribute to multiple cannons if they are in close enough proximity. Adding to their power consumption without solving the power shortage issue seems to be a mistake.
Their antimagic only applies if they can get into range and choose to use it. Given that it will only stop lucky-strike, and they can only antimagic at medium range, it is still useful. And we can only get lucky strike working if we understand it. Spending a single revision to get a handle on a completely new field of magic is well worth it. Our previous forays into new forms of magic have been notoriously difficult. If we had gotten a competent form of antimagic resistance back when I asked for one, then we would not be having this problem. Unfortunately we got an antimagic resistance that applies only to circuits, and is a hard-counter within that theatre so will probably be nerfed under the new rules. Don't be surprised if Avengers start dropping out of the skies if they get into short-range of an antimagic field...
KPD4 is a minor addition. Do you know what the "4" stand for? It stands for "it failed on three previous designs, lets try again". Go back and take a good hard look at the KPD4 proposal and see if it makes sense that a revision with that description would do any more for us than the 3 whole designs that evidently weren't satisfactory. It has been mentioned that the hull is the reason for the poor acceleration. We need a complete redesign of the aircraft to improve its performance noteably. It still won't work, of course, Keggers rule the skies, they can make jet-engines with a single revision, our airforce will never be more than "present" at this rate, and a revision certainly won't change that when three designs didn't.
Crystal Ammunition Fabrication is a downgrade. It uses inferior ammunition resulting in less range. It increases potential rate of fire by being less energy-efficient per shot, thus reducing practical rate-of-fire in most scenarios. The only significant advantage it would see is in removing the need to handle the weapons, so aircraft could have fixed guns and no gunner, being traditional dogfighters. Given that they are difficult to fly, however, we likely want dedicated gunners regardless, so why not use them as reloading mechanisms too and save on power consumption? Summoned ammunition is a good idea, but it doesn't work if we are summoning low-density crystals using a limited power source.
ER Blastshells have the same problem of being light. They do, however, at least replace an older technology. They are very much unlikely to increase our effective range, because they will be less deflection-resistant than solid bullets, but at least the sustained thrust might lower their exposure time...
KPD4 is too little to make a difference without a really good roll and favourable G.M.. We do not want to rely upon such things, although the favourable G.M. bit has turned out well for us in the past.
Train-deployment is, as others have said, largely redundant. There is some sense, however, in providing mobile resupply stations. I am not voting for it, but still...
Barring a massively good result. KPD4
Post by: helmacon on August 09, 2017, 07:50:08 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 09, 2017, 08:01:16 pm
Quote
REVISIONSOMEBODY DECAPITALIZED PART OF MY NAME!
1 - Crystal Ammunition Fabrication(summoned crystal bullets for automatic weaponry): Chiefwaffles
3 - KPD4(Greatly improve acceleration and ability of Lightning): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, helmacon
0 - Weightite Works(Summon Very Heavy material):
0 - Large Mundane-Nests of Power(combine reactors with mundanes):
0 - Small reactors(reactors for infantry):
3 - Lucky Strike(figure out the foreign spell): RAM, Voidslayer, Andres
0 - Blastshell - Extreme Range (ER)(better propellants in lighter rockets):
0 - Train-Deployed F45:
EXPENSE CREDIT:
1 - Spare Expense Credit: Chiefwaffles
1 - Use on Lightning: Fallacyofurist
Seriously, vote to use the Expense Credit on the Lightning. Normal Cost Lightning would be amazing. Very Expensive F44 is useful. Normal F45 would be amazing.
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 09, 2017, 08:07:01 pm
Bah. Put me on the expense credit for the lightning I guess.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 09, 2017, 08:12:35 pm
But wait - here's my super master plan for the Expense Credit. We apply it to this.
Future Design: Flying Fortress
A huge behemoth made out of crystal. There is no parallel for this vehicle at land nor sea. It is truly a flying fortress.
It uses many Aether Reactors along with appropriately-scaled KPD propulsion to keep itself aloft.
A Flying Fortress is air-sealed, with climate control and atmospheric regulation passive circuitry. Plenty of crystal glass windows and observation decks allow for viewing the ground below. Lightning turrets are scattered across the hull, and the barrels of many HA1s bristle out of the bottom of each side.
The armor is extremely thick, ideally being completely impenetrable to any non-unified Moskurger strike in any reasonable timeframe.
This can be Very Expensive. It's genius.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 09, 2017, 08:16:13 pm
And did I just hear Evicted faint?
Post by: RAM on August 09, 2017, 08:20:05 pm
Each player has two options. Change their vote from their preference, or keep it.Note that at least person is not suffering from this dilemma, as they have no voting discipline. I honestly thought that they had changed this time, it was actually a really pleasant surprise, I guess I just got mislead by the large difference in the lengths of the names of proposals. But anyway, we should basically assume that everyone is voting for all of their own proposals, in addition to whatever else they vote for.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 09, 2017, 08:23:53 pm
Plan Codename "Goddamn Moskurg and their Goddamn Wind"
Revision: Atmospheric Regulator Circuitry - Implement passive circuitry that manages both temperature and now the air inside a closed space, and implement it inside the Lightning.
Revision: Vacuum Propulsion - [Using concepts from ARC revision above maybe?] We adjust the KPD so its efficiency is unchanged by a thinning atmosphere.
And now we can go into space!
Design(?): Mindgem - We need something to manage orbital flight. We have a lot more freedom compared to something like NASA because we have infinite fuel. But still. Also weapon targeting calculations - Lucky Strike probably won't help that much from orbit.
Design: Orbital Weapons Platform - Oh yes.
But anyway, we should basically assume that everyone is voting for all of their own proposals, in addition to whatever else they vote for.Uh, no.
We should assume that people vote for what they say they vote for and nothing else. That is what voting is.
Post by: RAM on August 10, 2017, 12:17:23 am
As stated above, our explosions generate mass. There is no reason to believe that they would not work in a vacuum. No doubt air-pressure helps act as a resistive force to multiply their power output, which, one assumes, is how it is justified that what is essentially a rocket with infinite fuel can get off the ground but not into space, that and the surrounding air helping with its stability... But still, we have confirmed that it produces mass(which is mad overpowered but it lets dubious engine-designs that have outflow with no inflow work, and that is the important thing...) so it should propel in space even without the explosive force... It would likely need the power output doubled, if not raised by an order of magnitude, which is likely several revisions or a couple of designs worth...
Mindgem is inferior to living spell. Living spell can be applied to gems more easily than mindgems can released into a living spell. Our experience with mind magic has zero attachments to crystals, there is no reason to believe that it would be easier to achieve mindgems than living spells outside of "less good make it easier". We have just seen a great example of the folly of mindgems. We made crystal-based antimagic resistance and now people are complaining that we should ignore our newly acquired luck spell because mages aren't antimagic resistant. If we had had a more general-purpose antimagic resistance then this would not be an issue. If we ever want guidance on projectiles that don't have an expensive, light, and fragile crystal on them, if we ever want intelligent magic-eating flame monsters that devour entire fleets of airships, if we ever want magical assistants that live inside our mages' heads and help them with magic... then we need something better than mindgems, and the difference in difficulty does not seem to be significant.
Aiming is pretty minor, if we could summon something suitably heavy... then we can just bomb regions. Also note that being inherently magical, it is dubious that magical minds would be any better at the extremely mundane complexity of orbital trajectories than human minds are. Now, if you were asking for a magical mind to control a complex magical effect, such as a film that covers and entire craft that has to be kept stable by making subtle modifications to the film's output, then great, magic mind for magic operation is great, because magic should be good with magic. Given the nature of magic, if we just assume magic = computer-level-mathematical ability, then we are probably instantly onto the information-technology event horizon. Magic tends to just gloss over the details, so a computer making a better computer is much more plausible if it is a magic computer. And a magic computer is much less likely to go "I am designed to make helpful computers, and they will be helpful by making sure that the computers which they create are helpful" and much more likely to go "Ia ia cthulhu Ftagn"... So we really better hope that they are not capable of orbital mechanics.
As I understand it, deorbital reentry is rough because orbiting requires a phenomenal amount of velocity. it is not anything magical about entering an atmosphere that complicates matters, it is that you need to dissipate an insane amount of energy without exploding. If you can just fire your rockets constantly then you can zero your position relative to the planetary surface prior to dropping, and then drop by lowering your thrust to a point just a little below that of gravity, and tweaking it up a bit as gravity increases. Orbiting is basically throwing something so fast that it doesn't fall because that is the only way to go up and stay up. Infinite fuel opens the option of just going up by pushing down, and staying up by continuing to push down, with no massive sideways push required. You can see this in extreme-altitude craft such as weather balloons and spyplanes which can be recovers without bothering about complex reentry paths or heat-shielding...
Also note that just because wind doesn't leave the atmosphere doesn't mean that things propelled by it can't... also "solar winds" is totally fair-game if we get "breathable atmosphere maintenance"... Note that, while not exactly a constant, the ability for visible light to go through something is somewhat similar to the ability for ionising radiation to go through something. Far more relevant, however, is density. Anyone and anything that leaves the atmosphere in a crystal box is going to melt come morning.
It is extremely clear from basically everyone's conduct here that the voting scheme currently consists of "one vote per person for any given design or revision action, no restriction on which option to vote for, change at any time.". It has even been noted that being prevented from voting for other things while voting for your own is creating a quandary. I expect that I could count on one hand the number of project that were submitted by someone who was unwilling to vote for them in this thread. I feel that "if voting for multiple proposals were permitted, people would always vote for their own in addition to whatever else" is a safe assumption. Barring anyone stating that they would not abide by this, given a universally accepted "vote as much as you want" ruling, this assumption stand unopposed. If you think that assumed votes never happen then you really don't know what voting is.
Post by: evictedSaint on August 10, 2017, 10:22:49 am
We modify the KPD to wrap around the sides of the Lightning to allow omni-directional thrust. This disrupts the aerodynamic arrow-head design and gives it a more "bathtub" shape, but being able to directly accelerate from one side should allow the craft to get up to speed faster.
Please vote on what to do with the Expense Credit and where to deploy Myark.
Post by: helmacon on August 10, 2017, 12:15:07 pm
Post by: RAM on August 10, 2017, 04:36:07 pm
I believe that our votes were tied. And if we are going to be forcing things, would it not make sense to go for Lucky Strike, as that reached 3 votes first? Or perhaps because Chiefwaffles displayed a lack of conviction by voting for other things as well? I hope that we can all agree that "get up to speed faster" is not as good as "you can now use Lucky Strike"...
So I am requesting that the revision be revised to Lucky Strike, or delayed until the votes are changed.
Quote
1 Cheap Lightning aircraft: helmacon
1 Preserve Expense Credit: RAM
0 Cheap Mundanes:
1 Myark to mountains: helmacon
Post by: andrea on August 10, 2017, 04:38:44 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 10, 2017, 04:52:09 pm
Stop removing my vote. This is getting very tiring.
Quote
EXPENSE CREDIT
2 - Spare Expense Credit: Chiefwaffles, RAM
1 - Lightning: helmacon
MYARK
1 - Mountains: Helmacon
Post by: andrea on August 10, 2017, 04:55:59 pm
Quote
EXPENSE CREDIT
3 - Spare Expense Credit: Chiefwaffles, RAM, Andrea
1 - Lightning - helmacon
MYARK
1 - Mountains: Helmacon
While a cheap avenger would be nice, I believe in designing a national effort and expensing it down.
Post by: RAM on August 10, 2017, 04:59:46 pm
Chiefwaffles.Added votes from previous phase.
Stop removing proposals and votes and making false accusations. This is getting very tiring.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote
2 Cheap Lightning aircraft: helmacon, FallacyofUrist
3 Preserve Expense Credit: RAM, Chiefwaffles, Andrea
0 Cheap Mundanes:
1 Myark to mountains: helmacon
Post by: evictedSaint on August 10, 2017, 05:13:03 pm
Still, I should have mentioned the coin toss in the revision and maybe given a second "revision soon" warning. Sorry about that.
Post by: RAM on August 10, 2017, 05:39:37 pm
Post by: Andres on August 10, 2017, 06:53:58 pm
Quote
2 Cheap Lightning aircraft: helmacon, FallacyofUrist
4 Preserve Expense Credit: RAM, Chiefwaffles, Andrea
0 Cheap Mundanes:
1 Myark to mountains: helmacon
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on August 10, 2017, 07:27:23 pm
Quote2 Cheap Lightning aircraft: helmacon, FallacyofUrist
4 Preserve Expense Credit: RAM, Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Andres
0 Cheap Mundanes:
1 Myark to mountains: helmacon
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 10, 2017, 07:50:45 pm
Seriously, folks, using the Expense Credit now will enormously help the war effort. Normal Cost Lightning. Remember how effective cheap crystalclads were? Consider that. Except for all the fronts.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 10, 2017, 08:13:53 pm
It may finally be a competent aircraft, but it's still more of a gunship. We can definitely improve it with revisions, but it'll still be a gunship and it'd most likely be impractical to try to use revisions to change that.
If we ever want a dedicated fighter, we'd likely be better off designing a new fighter rather than trying to revise the Lightning into being that better fighter. And the expense credit won't apply here. That and we still don't know the effectiveness of the Lightning yet. While it'll definitely be effective, I'd rather wait and see if it's effective enough to warrant a credit.
That and the National Effort design -> Very Expensive is a very attractive idea.
Also, new potential design.
Potential Design: AS-HA2
The next evolution in artillery warfare, the HA2 introduces many new benefits that will cement its title as the successor to the HA1.
The HA2 is constructed utilizing crystal, and possesses a crystal-glass "shield" extending a bit outward and curving slightly inwards to protect the crew from (upper-)forward projectiles. Mechanisms allow for angling the barrel up/down easily and more-so than the HA1. Behind the shield and under the barrel is a much smaller Aether Reactor Mk. 2. This reactor is obviously similar to the one located in the Lightning, but is much smaller to avoid unnecessary expense, size, and weight. The Reactor does generate more power than needed, but not by a large amount - enough for future expansions (such as fabricating crystal inside the barrel).
The biggest change in the HA2 is the propellant.
Blastballs have long been outdated by the KPD. The KPD4 utilizes directional constant thrust that can be easily changed and its thrust distribution can be changed in real time by a human operator. Compare this to the Blastball - a single set-power unfocused (and weak) explosion.
The HA2 is moving to the future by incorporating the KPD4 instead of Blastballs. Perhaps the biggest advantage of the KPD4 is its more-directional thrust. This allows for us to greatly increase the power of the propellant without having to worry about the structural integrity of the barrel. Though of course we won't be using constant thrust, and will be needing a significantly smaller power input than that required by the Lightning.
The KPD4 propellant will allow for a much faster and longer-ranged projectile, and the scaled Aether Reactor will allow for no reliance on wizards.
A small set of dials located behind the shield allow for the crew to configure the KPD4 to allow for much more dynamic, quicker, and easier aiming. The power can be changed to accommodate for different ranges (and potentially ammunition types) without having to adjust the barrel at all.
Reactor - A downscaled Aether Reactor Mk. 2 allows for the HA2 to operate without wizards present.
Propellant - Instead of using Blastballs, we adapt the KPD4 to work as a propellant. Its directional thrust and far-greater strength (the KPD1 was an equivalent of 4 blastballs/second) allows us to invoke far greater velocities on our projectiles and not worry about the integrity of the barrel too.
Crystal - The HA2 is made of Crystal, and should get the Crystalworks bonus.
Shield - A simple crystal-glass shield extends slightly outwards from the HA2 and curves inward a bit to give the crew cover from projectiles.
TL;DR - We adapt the KPD4 and Aether Reactor to the HA1 to create the next generation artillery piece.
Post by: Andres on August 10, 2017, 08:16:13 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 10, 2017, 08:19:06 pm
Post by: Andres on August 10, 2017, 08:23:28 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 10, 2017, 08:25:35 pm
Quote from: evictedSaint (Discord)
evictedSaint - Today at 9:27 PMI had assumed you saw this.
wh...the blastballs, which you use to propel your bullets and artillery shells?
they're not really used against armor.
Post by: RAM on August 10, 2017, 08:53:53 pm
The statement is that they are not "used" against armour. Not that they are not "effective" against armour. Given better than medium range and manual or proximity detonation and they would see use and effectiveness.
Post by: Draignean on August 10, 2017, 09:06:28 pm
Why would anyone see that? It is not in the thread...
The statement is that they are not "used" against armour. Not that they are not "effective" against armour. Given better than medium range and manual or proximity detonation and they would see use and effectiveness.
Proximity trigger blast-flak, to smash the Moskurg air superiority.
Also, quick question, the KPD: it conjures particles with velocity and sends them in a particular direction, right?
Post by: Andres on August 10, 2017, 09:08:56 pm
Considering the thing we use to propel bullets are Small, I can see why we don't use them to destroy armour. It still remains that full sized Powerful Blastballs are what destroys airships.Quote from: evictedSaint (Discord)evictedSaint - Today at 9:27 PMI had assumed you saw this.
wh...the blastballs, which you use to propel your bullets and artillery shells?
they're not really used against armor.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 10, 2017, 09:23:19 pm
Also, quick question, the KPD: it conjures particles with velocity and sends them in a particular direction, right?Well, the KPD is derived from the Blastball. A Blastball does have a little smoke and exhaust but I don't believe we've been told about how the Blastball works beyond that.
Why would anyone see that? It is not in the thread...Note how I was replying specifically to Andres, who is in the Discord.
The statement is that they are not "used" against armour. Not that they are not "effective" against armour. Given better than medium range and manual or proximity detonation and they would see use and effectiveness.I've asked evicted before (though am unable to find specific logs) and have got a similar answer. But yes, "used" is mildly vague and I asked evicted about it more specifically an hour ago though he's yet to respond.
Considering the thing we use to propel bullets are Small, I can see why we don't use them to destroy armour. It still remains that full sized Powerful Blastballs are what destroys airships.This is misleading.
We use three Blastballs to propel a single HA1 shell. And "Blastball" doesn't just mean SPSF-C, the weaker variant. It also refers to PSF-C. It's just used to refer to the concussive variants of Fireballs.
Post by: Andres on August 10, 2017, 10:02:22 pm
Post by: RAM on August 10, 2017, 11:50:07 pm
Granted, with all our effort in cannons, they will still get more range and more concentrated force than our fireball derivatives will, so I wouldn't count them out, but it is worth noting that the propulsion system is terrible for cannons. They are a constant effect, for sustained force rather than sudden force. I assume that they are terrible at producing wind, given that:
If we try to compete with Moskurg in wind magic, we will lose.So they are not coing to be a sustained pressure-force within the barrel, so what counts is getting as much pressure as possible when it is as concentrated as possible, because once the bullet starts moving along the barrel, it increases the space behind it, rapidly depressurising that space and reducing the force propelling the bullet. A sustained-force propellant CAN be use to SUPPORT an explosion, but it will be ridiculously inefficient as an initial blast. Also, since the propulsion is surface-bases, and we cannot produce wind, it will need to be attached to the bullet instead of the cannon, which means that the propulsion equipment will not be reused and the bullet needs to incorporate it, which means lighter bullets with a higher price-tag. We can have rocket-propelled bullets as a niche item, but we are going to need traditional explosions to propel them, and the rest of our armaments will need traditional explosions or a complete redesign of our cannons, perhaps into some sort of railed catapult, which, again, is a horrible idea because it is basically a powered shot-put, which is terrible. It would lack power, destroy itself after a few shots, would still be better with an explosion to push it off... You could try some sort of power-assisted trebuchet, but then you lose all your accuracy, and thus have no range regardless of how far the bullets travel.
Really, the only way a sustained-force cannon works is by creating a wind-tunnel, and as we all know:
If we try to compete with Moskurg in wind magic, we will lose.Not that I actually agree with the above quote, but in this instance, yes, a constant effect compared to a burst effect, the burst is required for a cannon, the constant effect can be a cute gimmick, but is never going to hold the line. The wind0magic they use to push their bullets is inferior to the explosion magic that we use to push our shells.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 10, 2017, 11:56:40 pm
Potential Design: AS-HA2
The next evolution in artillery warfare, the HA2 introduces many new benefits that will cement its title as the successor to the HA1.
The HA2 is constructed utilizing crystal, and possesses a crystal-glass "shield" extending a bit outward and curving slightly inwards to protect the crew from (upper-)forward projectiles. Mechanisms allow for angling the barrel up/down easily and more-so than the HA1. Behind the shield and under the barrel is a much smaller Aether Reactor Mk. 2. This reactor is obviously similar to the one located in the Lightning, but is much smaller to avoid unnecessary expense, size, and weight. The Reactor does generate more power than needed, but not by a large amount - enough for future expansions (such as fabricating crystal inside the barrel).
The biggest change in the HA2 is the propellant.
Blastballs have long been outdated by the KPD. The KPD4 utilizes directional constant thrust that can be easily changed and its thrust distribution can be changed in real time by a human operator. Compare this to the Blastball - a single set-power unfocused (and weak) explosion.
The HA2 is moving to the future by incorporating the KPD4 instead of Blastballs. Perhaps the biggest advantage of the KPD4 is its more-directional thrust. This allows for us to greatly increase the power of the propellant without having to worry about the structural integrity of the barrel. Though of course we won't be using constant thrust, and will be needing a significantly smaller power input than that required by the Lightning.
The KPD4 propellant will allow for a much faster and longer-ranged projectile, and the scaled Aether Reactor will allow for no reliance on wizards.
A small set of dials located behind the shield allow for the crew to configure the KPD4 to allow for much more dynamic, quicker, and easier aiming. The power can be changed to accommodate for different ranges (and potentially ammunition types) without having to adjust the barrel at all.
Post by: RAM on August 11, 2017, 01:16:17 am
Unless you don;'t want that. I want to actually play a design game. Where we actually have designs with actual properties, rather than just "we research 'more power'" "we use 'more power' to make all the things more powerful!". I mean, sure, if the G.M. is willing to let your get away with completely generic designs then you can win a game that way, but the journey is dead boring.
Post by: evictedSaint on August 11, 2017, 01:31:31 am
Salt Rules
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 11, 2017, 01:44:20 am
Design: ASAF-F43 Interceptor [1-1, 2+1+1, 4]KPD1
...
The method of flight is via a very precise PSF-C propulsion method; attempts to create an "on-going explosion" didn't quite pan out, but it is possible to instead fire off a PSF-C four times a second to create a similar effect. This is referred to proudly as the Kinetic Propulsion Drive.
The first one. The KPD1 is simple. We're just detonating 4 PSF-Cs a second beneath the craft to make it go up. It ends in disaster because this is a bad idea.
Design: ASAF-F44 "Avenger" [4, 4-1, 4]The KPD2. It changes two things.
...
The KPD Mk.2 is a rather ambitious affair. Our Mathemagicians analysis of the previous engine showed that an uncontained explosion beneath the craft does provide propulsion, but a large part of the expansion is lost around the edges of the craft. The blastballs work in our cannons because the muzzle forces the expansion in one direction to provide propulsion; because there's no "muzzle" on the F43 the energy was largely wasted.
We make some progress modifying the propulsion methods of our blastball, but making it directional is a bit tougher than we expected. It's easier to make the expansion constant, however, so we achieve some partial success on that front. Using the characteristics of our new blastball spell we can create an engine that generates lift. The KPD Mk.2 engine is essentially a crystal cup, into which a number of nickel circuits and copper scrollwork is integrated. We make liberal use of the conductive/non-conductive crystal to channel energy towards the base of the cup where the continuous blastball can be generated and directed outward. The intensity of the generation can be modulated to provide differing levels of thrust.
Thing #1: Instead of just aimlessly detonating PSF-Cs beneath the craft to indirectly propel the Avenger, the KPD2 works by containing the explosions into a nozzle, which focuses the explosions and turns it into directional thrust. Somewhat crude, but it at least works in the first place.
Thing #2: Instead of just rapidfire detonating PSF-Cs, the KPD2 is one continuous explosion. This is much more stable as it makes the KPD more like a rocket engine instead of literally blowing up the air under the thing in an attempt to get it to move. Probably more energy-efficient too, but that's just conjecture on my part.
Design: ASAF-F45 "Lightning" [4+1, 6-1, 5+1]The KPD3.
The next generation of hovercraft, the ASAF-F45 "Lightning" features the Kinetic Propulsion Drive Mk. 3. The KPD Mk. 3 uses the entire underside of the craft as a propulsion surface rather than the bell-shaped nozzle of the KPD Mk. 2, which sacrifices efficiency for stability. The wide, flat surface generates an "on-going explosion" across the entire expanse - the distribution of this thrust can be modulated by controls in the pilots cockpit. By intensifying on one side or another the craft can roll and pitch, but must still use sweeping turns to yaw. A significant amount of thrust is lost laterally as it "leaks" around the edges of the craft, but the Aether Reactor (which dominates the center of the craft) provides enough output that the craft actually sees a performance boost over the F44. The Lightning is able to fly faster and higher than before, but acceleration is still slow - a symptom of the overall design.
Basically, the KPD3 moves past the nozzle. Instead, it generates a constant "explosion" beneath all parts of the craft. This is different to the KPD1 because the explosion is actually distributed across the entire craft and isn't just a single point of detonation beneath the Lightning. Furthermore, the KPD3 allows for extensive control over the properties of this explosion in real time to allow for actually moving the craft and changing directions.
And importantly is the phrase "on-going explosion" used to describe the KPD, which I have bolded. The KPD4 does not change this fact, so yes, the KPD does in fact use explosions.
Also "A significant amount of thrust is lost laterally as it leaks around the edges of the craft, but the Aether Reactor provides enough input that the craft actually sees a performance boost over the F44".
Meaning that the KPD3 is more powerful than the KPD2. Significantly so.
Revision: KPD4 [3]Finally, the KPD4.
We modify the KPD to wrap around the sides of the Lightning to allow omni-directional thrust. This disrupts the aerodynamic arrow-head design and gives it a more "bathtub" shape, but being able to directly accelerate from one side should allow the craft to get up to speed faster.
The KPD4 is just a revision to the KPD3 to allow for omni-directional thrust on the Lightning. Doesn't change anything other than that. It's more of a tweak to the existing KPD3 but "KPD 3.2" doesn't sound quite as good as "KPD4".
So to sum it up:
Yes, the KPD3/4 is significantly more powerful.
Yes, the KPD4 is an explosion.
The HA2 design takes advantage of the KPD to introduce directional propellant. Because of the fact that we have more control over the exact specifics of the KPD's thrust and its direction, we can pack much more power into the thing without having to increase the size of the barrel past practical levels to not explode when the gun fires. That, and again, the KPD is significantly more powerful. The KPD1 fired at a rate of 4 PSF-Cs per second and the KPD3 is decidedly more powerful than that, which is already better than the HA1's power.
EDIT:
Also from Discord -
Quote from: evictedSaint (Discord)
evictedSaint - Today at 9:19 PM
OH - you mean the explosive shells that use blastballs.
I thought you meant
like
wizards casting blastballs against moskurg troops
yeah explosive shells will shred Moskurg armored ships
I've asked evicted again for clarification (I hope this isn't another "crystal shell" fiasco but I would assume that evicted would say so if it is) but so far this seems to further imply that Blastballs are ineffective against armor. But we'll still wait and see for a more definitive answer from evicted.
(evicted, it would be nice if you could just answer this on the thread - Are Blastballs [the powerful kind] useful at all against Moskurger armor? Even if we haven't seen this in a combat situation, we should know as we have to design the barrels of our guns [and kind of the KPD] to be safe for continuous Blastball usage.)
Post by: RAM on August 11, 2017, 04:51:46 am
The quote that indicates a performance boost specifically attributes that boost to an increase in power from the reactor. It suggests that the propulsion can make use of more power, but that could be attributed to possessing a larger propulsion device, which would be consistent with the entire underside of the craft being propulsion. It is also only referencing increased power compared to F44, so it is entirely consistent with the quote that F44 was operating at low power and that the propulsion itself saw no performance increase.
There is also the matter of less energy being wasted on maintaining stability. Correcting the craft's orientation requires moving one part of it more than another, often in a direction that does not entirely contribute to flight progress for even just that component. Increasing stability will increase thrust efficiency and thus increase performance.
A larger propulsion device ought to provide more net thrust. It is actually concerning that the craft was capable of capsizing itself with a single K.P.D.1 and has only seen as much improvement as it has with its entire underside converted into propulsion. I suspect that it has an engine that has at least quadrupled in size, yet I am not certain that it has quadrupled in thrust. Flipping IS pretty easy, but it still requires a lot of force.
It further stand to reason that just because it is more powerful than 4 explosions per second, does not mean that it is more powerful than three explosions in the time required for a bullet to leave a cannon. Indeed, it seems to me that the cannon is, by comparison, EXTREMELY powerful. Though I do not off-hand know, nor care to research, how long it takes for a magic cannon that can put a, what, 8cm calibre iron bullet? out to, what, "B.L.O.S. +1"? 25 kilometres? to get its projectile out of its influence, but I suspect it to be very much less than a quarter-second. So it seems that it is very very very much easier to lift an aircraft that to push a bullet, in terms of force per time. It has never been a problem of raw power, but rather applying that power. K.P.D. is not especially powerful, it is just better at applying that power gently to a thing that is sitting in open air, the basic explosions that it was derived from are still better at pushing an expendable object that is trapped in an extremely snug tunnel.
The Key word in "sustained explosion" is "sustained". It is a "sustained" force that explodes. At it root, all that an explosion is, is something that expands. You most certainly get sub-sonic explosions, hence the term "high" explosives. A kettle converting water into steam is technically an explosion. What we know is that it has become sustained, constant, and that is the primary feature. And in terms of a constant use, such as flight, it is going to be much more powerful. Afterall, a cannon has all that time between shots when it does nothing at all. But the point is, ultimately, that we have put 4 actions into a safe, constant, directed force, what we did not do any significant work on was raw power. If a cannon had any problems at all in terms of directing its power then there would be some hope, but as it stands, K.P.D. is VERY explicitly a sustained force. Converting it to a burst would mean yet another fundamental modification to it, with no reason to believe that it would be any better than the existing explosions. I am not trying to state that it is as weak as a water-to-steam reaction, just that it is extremely specialised to push a very-nearly two-dimensional surface, while the explosions expand in a completely three-dimensional space. The amount of K.P.D. that you can fit in a cannon's chamber is miniscule compared to what can be fit under an aircraft, and the time that it has over-which to function is , again, miniscule compared to that of an aircraft. the three explosions are definitely more powerful. There is, as far as I can tell, no data at all to corroborate K.P.D. being more, or even AS powerful per unit of time over a given area.
The fact is that if it were as powerful as our cannons then it would move like our bullets, the entire surface is covered in the stuff and, what's more, its density is lower than that of a bullet. Now it is likely that its mass compared to its under-side surface-area is greater, but then again, bullets are built heavy, thin, and flat-bottomed, while aircraft are built light, wide, and have a three-dimensional underside for more area to thrust against, which is important if you have thrusters over that entire area. If they were receiving the same power then I would accept a significant drop in speed, maybe even an order of magnitude, but we really aren't seeing that at all. Our bullets have VASTLY more force per unit of mass. The amount of total force over the time that the force is applied is not even a contest.
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Thing #1: Instead of just aimlessly detonating PSF-Cs beneath the craft to indirectly propel the Avenger, the KPD2 works by containing the explosions into a nozzle, which focuses the explosions and turns it into directional thrust. Somewhat crude, but it at least works in the first place.Correct, the focus of the project is in making a constant force that can be directed. Nothing about raw power, though a lot of additional power will be gained due to the efficiency of focusing that power. The whole point of a cannon is to focus power, and they are good at it. Our whole K.P.D. project has almost nothing with relevance to a cannon's operation, and has greatly compromised its ability to function in a cannon due to its adherence to surfaces rather than open spaces.
Quote
Thing #2: Instead of just rapidfire detonating PSF-Cs, the KPD2 is one continuous explosion. This is much more stable as it makes the KPD more like a rocket engine instead of literally blowing up the air under the thing in an attempt to get it to move. Probably more energy-efficient too, but that's justCorrect, it is continuous, thus ill-suited to cannons. Correct, is is much more stable, thus its function when propelling unstable aircraft is greatly improved, resulting in "effective" performance improvements which would not apply to cannons which provide near-perfect stability by trapping the aircraft in a narrow tube. Correct, it is more like a rocket engine than it was when it was a cannon charge. Correct, it does not blow things up anymore. Likely correct, energy efficiency is good, but a cannon, by virtue of forcing all of its force to be contained within a barrel, has that same efficiency.
So there is no statement that corroborates that the spell itself has become any more powerful at all, just one statement that indicates that upgrading the power source made it more powerful, that is all on the power source.
It is an explosion, but it is a slow explosion, which is the wrong sort of explosion to use in a cannon. We have basically spend many many actions designing a jet-engine and the massive power0supplies necessary to get it to work. It is very good at pushing a plane, terrible at pushing a bullet. It is possible that all of our experience in combustion chambers and fuel-mixes and high-performance materials could get us a better gun, but putting a jet engine in a gun is not going to make a good gun. We could try for a better explosion spell, but using the K.P.D. as a cannon propellant ridicules all of the efforts spent in making it very very very explicitly NOT a cannon propellant..
Post by: helmacon on August 11, 2017, 01:29:58 pm
Quote
but putting a jet engine in a gun is not going to make a good gun.
Coincidently, they do make some seriously badass suppressors. Seriously though, almost no sound,
almost no recoil, (https://osssuppressors.com)and almost no drop in performance.
Post by: evictedSaint on August 11, 2017, 08:52:51 pm
Moskurg makes the first fumbling steps towards modernizing their antique ballista artillery to something that can compete with Arstotzka's magically powered cannons. Named the "Thundergun" after the thunderous *crack*-ing noise it makes when fired, this new artillery piece is essentially an over-sized coilgun. Firing round iron slugs out of a greased Adamantium barrel, it uses three dozen sequenced copper coils along the twelve foot muzzle for propulsion via a phenomenon known as the "Hayat Effect". The cannon uses thirty-six Wands of Thunderbolt packed into a single cartridge and an open-latch loading breech, and the timing mechanism is controlled via vacuum tubes (also invented by Hayat). The gun can reach out to BLOS+1, but is inaccurate (even with Lucky Strike) beyond Extreme Range - likely due to the unaerodynamic ammo and smooth-bore barrel. Both their design phases were spent getting a working prototype and a functional unit they can put out on the field, and the revision was spent making sure it wouldn't break every time it fired. It doesn't quit obsolete ballistas just yet, as it can't fire unique ammo, hit accurately, or be moved easily, but it has plenty of promise.
Arstotzka similarly spends this year trying to match their opponents area of expertise. Their Avenger has been given plenty of care and attention this year, with a brand-new design known as the Lightning. Fast, stable(-ish), and cheaper than its predecessor, it uses a brand-new magical energy generator known as the Aether Reactor. Unlike the previous generation Reactor, it doesn't explode quite as violently, and manages to output more energy for the same volume via an ingenious radial-battery design. The turret has been upgraded from 14 mm's to 20, giving it considerably more punch. It's still single-fire and unpowered, but it does draw energy from the reactor so that a mage isn't required to operate it. In fact, it can be operated entirely by non-mages! The first design was spent making the generator, the second was spent making the Lightning, and the revision was spent upgrading the propulsion system to improve acceleration. They once again elect to not spend their expense credit.
The border between the Taiga and the Jungle sees the most pitched fighting this year, and most of it occurs above the tree tops.
Moskurgs new cannons are...difficult to place. More inaccurate than ballistas but with more range, it is used primarily on the ground to do the exact same thing Arstotzka has done to Moskurg for the past few decades; barrage enemy lines from an untouchable distance. The round iron spheres don't really do much damage, though - they're too inaccurate to reliably hit enemies (even with Lucky Strike) and near-misses are non-fatal since the ammo doesn't explode. The miserable range on teletalk wands means it can be difficult to get real-time feedback on barrage accuracy, which surprisingly makes Arstotzkas flare system more useful in this case. Even worse, each cannon goes through a heavy 36-pack of Thunderbolt Wands in addition to every cannonball fired, and much in the same way Arstotzka suffered from supply issues when their HA1 went to the field Moskurg is unable to barrage non-stop. Still, it's a longer stick than anything Arstotzka has, and even if they can't fire it all the time, or accurately, they can at least fire it without mages - something Arstotzka has been struggling with for decades and Moskurg figured out in a year. Compared strictly to the HA1-b "Mundane", it's a little better since it can fire more often (provided it has available ammunition) and can hit further.
Arstotzkas new Lightning has made the Phoenix impossible to use at all. The 20 mm gun can knock out engines pretty easily, and it has enough handling that it can get into position for the gunner to fire off multiple rounds. There's even enough of them that they can do more than single strike missions, but Moskurgs Skyskiffs still outnumber them. Sadly, the Lightning doesn't fulfill the "dogfighter" role as envisioned, as the turret doesn't track targets fast enough nor even fire more than once every six seconds. Skyskiffs (or even lone "carpet" riders) can reliably knock out a Lightning if they can get close enough. The Lightning has better range and better speed, but can't hit the small Skyskiffs. The Skyskiffs have better killing capabilities, but their primary offensive ranged armament is the short-ranged Thunderbolt Wands and the pilots can't operate at the high speeds the device is capable of due to the open-cockpit design (and utter lack of seatbelts). Moskurg can usually drive off Lightnings, since the Lightning can't operate in groups thanks to Moskurgs weather control and they're still outnumbered by the Skyskiff. The Skyhawk must operate in tandem with numerous defensive fighters, but it can at least take a couple hits before going down and still operates in a slightly reduced capability.
Arstotzka still controls the ground thanks to their superior infantry. Their Protector is still garbage and useless in the uneven and densely-forested terrain, so troops can't use it as cover during melee advances. The Zephyr helps make up the difference in infantry combat, and as always is extra effective thanks to the heavily forested area with plenty of debris to throw around. Without the ability to land troops behind enemy lines and with al-Mutriqa leading the charge against them, Arstotzka is once again forced to cede ground to the southern invaders. Their Lightning gives them a foothold in the air, but until their ability to actually dogfight is addressed they'll continue to be beaten back at every turn. Similarly, Moskurgs artillery will need to address supply issues and lack of ammo types before it can be a major player on the ground, and more importantly it'll need to be miniaturized and made more accurate before it can be used by the troops on the ground or by the skiffs in the air.
Moskurg regains a foothold in the Taiga.
Air power and artillery render infantry less useful in the plains.
Moskurgs artillery can hit the furthest, dictating the distance between trench lines. It's not accurate enough to hit anything in the trenches, but it can keep Arstotzka's artillery at bay which is a prize all on its own. The Skyhawk still rules the roost when it comes to picking and chipping away at enemy lines, and Moskurg can more reliably bomb enemy emplacements from the air. Arstotzka returns the favor as best they can, but the Lightning doesn't have bomb mountings and the more primitive Avenger must be used, when they can even reach enemy lines. The Zephyr doesn't do much, nor does the Phoenix, but the HAC-1 likewise has little use here. Moskurg ultimately has the advantage with their air and artillery advantage, and the fact that they control the coastlines means they push Arstotzka back another section and continue their creep north.
Moskurg gains a section of the Plains.
The Thundergun is hard to use in the mountains, much like the HA1 was. Too large and heavy to move easily, it's regulated primarily to airships and the ballista is used on the ground. Stone fortresses are little more than piles of gravel from the constant bombardment, and rain makes everyone miserable this high up. Life is lightning blasts, bombing runs, artillery barrages, and scrambling from one wet rock to another. The Lightning, frustratingly enough, can't aim downward, so its ground support role is non-existent. Moskurg's Skyskiffs are better suited for supporting infantry advancements up rockey trails, though the fact that Arstotzka has had time to dig in does not bode well for the tired troopers. HA1's hit pre-designated choke-points and slaughter dozens, only to be hit immediately after by Moskurg air forces. Skyhawks move carefully between mountain peaks, only to be ambushed by Lightnings that are then immediately driven off by Moskurg Skyskiffs. Melees on the ground usually go to Arstotzkans, who favor ambushes with their single-shot R1's. Arstotzka knows these mountains far better than their southern neighbors, and it shows. The fighting is brutal, grueling, and non-stop.
Arstotzkas pushes don't go so well, either. Without Close Air Support they can only fight (and lose) short battles with Moskurg air forces, and most of their Mages go back to standing in with troops to throw fireballs at Moskurgers when battles do happen. When Skyskiffs appear over head, however, all they can do is hide and hope they run out of ammo soon. Their crystal armor does a fair job at protecting them against most forms of injury, making it require multiple Thunderbolt strikes or firestorm grenades to knock them out of the fight. Myark fights hard, and is really the only one who can knock enemy pilots out of the sky by hitting them with an R1 during a banking maneuver. It's not much, but every little bit helps.
Ultimately, though the two sides are roughly even. After a year of combat, however, [heads=Moskurg, tails=Arstotzka: tails] Arstotzka manages to bleed Moskurg dry enough that they push the invaders back down the slopes. It was a close fight, and though they won Arstotzka only managed to do so by the skin of their teeth.
Arstotzka has regained the Mountains. If they hold it for a year, they may exploit it for resources.
In the frozen northern seas, battles are fought and won in the air.
With ships regulated to mostly support, Arstotzka and Moskurg air forces slug it out in viscous dogfights. If Arstotzka can take out airships, then Moskurg Skyskiffs have nowhere to land and will eventually go into the water (and quickly freeze to death). If Moskurg can knock out enough Lightnings, then Arstotzka will have no way to defend themselves against the airships overhead. Arstotzkas Lightnings are faster, so they can more reliably penetrate Moskurg perimeters. Killing the airships takes time, however, so Moskurg can often catch up and start blasting the Lightnings out of the sky. It's fairly even, but eventually [heads=Moskurg, tails=Arstotzka: heads] Moskurg shows their superiority on the high
Moskurg gains a section of shoreline in the Northern Seas
REVISION CREDIT!!!
As both sides advance their knowledge in the magical (or non-magical) arts, their ability to produce wondrous works that bend nature to their will has grown. From now on, both sides will gain a permanent additional revision credit each year. This credit can not be saved and is subject to the same bonuses and maluses as a normal revision.
ESPIONAGE CREDIT!!!
The years of war have begun taking its toll on Arstotzka. Cracks in the design team have become very noticable, and after plenty of forewarning infighting has occurred. A defector has come to the Moskurg design team, seething with anger. The growing factions in Arstotzka threaten the Kingdoms very existence, and this individual sees Bjorn as too weak of a leader to continue on after the King has passed. He comes to Moskurg asking only that once the war is over and Bjorn lies dead they will remember his Clan as one of those who sided with Moskurg, once it comes time to divide up the conquered kingdom. Moskurg gains an Espionage Credit this year.
It is 947, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 947 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Behavior Rules. Please Read.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: RAM on August 11, 2017, 09:51:42 pm
We combine the wasp spell and the fog spell, along with all the field theory that we got from the recent propulsion development, and throw in a dash of mind magic from the taming spells and complex magical systems from our circuitry to produce a self0sustaining, aware, mobile, and loyal cloud. It resists antimagic by overcharging itself from reactors prior to engaging and retreats if it runs low. It fights by travelling in packs, obscuring the position of our forces until tit get close to enemy positions, then breaks up into individuals and sits on an enemy position, effectively blinding them. Obviously it is vulnerable to wind effects, but it can freely travel laterally to "sidestep" the wind and if it does get pushed away, it just waits until the mage powering the wind exhausts themselves and merrily returns.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 11, 2017, 10:51:09 pm
Design: ASAF-O47 "Oracle" Variant A
Space.
The realm beyond ours. For centuries, Arstotzka's researchers have wondered about the possibilities that lie beyond the veil of our skies, but it was only with the advent of magic that interest started to garner. And now, with the KPD, space may soon be ours. The O46 (Orbiter 947) Oracle will be the vehicle to reach space. It may not be easy, but it's possible.
Spoiler: Fluff (click to show/hide)
Hull - Just a modified version of the Lightning to save time. The turret is now fixed in place (the Oracle can just move itself for targeting) and a small open-air tube connects the gunner and cockpit to allow for coordination. Of course, the place is sealed and filled with ARC. Armor should be minimal.
Weapon - A single fixed HC1-E firing +E Blastshells (not +ER, since those are expensive + only fit in the HA1) will be present in the former turret. The altitude from which the shell is fired should make it extremely powerful regardless of whatever's firing it, and range doesn't matter because space.
Atmosphere
Atmosphere Regulation Circuits - The Fireball, a spell we've mastered, is basically just "gas mix + energy". We take out the "energy" part, tweak the gas mix, then make a passive circuit like cooling circuits to keep a certain gas mix. Combine with cooling circuitry and bam, we can keep the atmosphere of any space regulated.
Vacuum KPD - Apply the ARC here to keep a bare gas mix for the KPD to operate in. Should still be passive since we need a simpler gas mix + smaller volume even if the KPD does increase the strain, but if we have to make it active circuitry, then it can use power from the Reactor instead of the KPD since we don't need to be as fast/agile in space.
Targeting
Crystal Optics - We finally design Crystal Optics, using our experience with Crystal + the Crystalworks to make a form of crystal that greatly magnifies things behind it. We put this all over the cockpit to allow for the crew to be able to get limited sight and targeting on the ground. It won't be perfect (yet) of course, but it should definitely work.
Enemy Targetting (Not a component) - Moskurger artillery nests, large troop emplacements, forts, bases, castles, cities, farms, fleets, and perhaps their bigger airships, should be able to be targeted to varying degrees of efficiency. Basically anything "big". Should of course be combined with daily-ish orders from Command. We can also finally make blind-flares useful, as the extra brightness should make them visible to the Oracle so troops on the ground can use them to summon orbital strikes.
Expense - Logically, on a "normal" roll, the Oracle should just be Expensive as it shouldn't be adding anything more expensive to the Lightning and is even decreasing armor, and is made by the Crystalworks. But I probably won't complain any expense this gets. Because it's a spacecraft. In a magic-based Arms Race.
TL;DR - Modify the Lightning to go into space, give it Crystal Optics + a HC1-E, then annihilate Moskurg from above. This is actually much simpler than I thought it'd be.
Space.
Quote
DESIGN
0 - Living Cloud (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533431#msg7533431):
1 - ASAF-O47 "Oracle" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533464#msg7533464): Chiefwaffles
So my plan is to basically just design the Oracle then use up both revisions probably fixing it. Because regardless of how simple a spacecraft is, if it's a spacecraft, evicted's probably not going to go too lenient with us.
If we don't have to use the revisions to fix it (which is a very reasonable chance), then I think we should look into better targeting/communication for the Oracle and/or fix the Protector.
EDIT:
It would also ne a good idea to revise the Lightning turret - make it super fast and KPD rotating so it's much better at tracking.
Lucky Strike I still think we should wait in until we have more things to use Lucky Strike with.
Post by: helmacon on August 11, 2017, 11:18:40 pm
I'll write up a new design soon enough to incorporate the newest advances.
The revision should either be to make the lightning's turret powered and maneuverable, or make the R1 use full clips instead of single action.
I would also support a design using the enemy's lucky strike we stole.
As it is now effecting the team as a whole, I'm going to give fair warning to CW and RAM. If you get salty again, the team as a whole will shut you down. Just don't.
Post by: Andres on August 11, 2017, 11:43:45 pm
Pierceball Artillery Wand
Cannons are shit. They're large, heavy, you can only reload them so quickly, they take an enormous amount of energy just to fire a projectile, and more.
To replace them is a large (but certainly smaller than a HA1) wand-like device that uses circuits to shoot a Powerful Blastball variant called the Pierceball. The Pierceball is like the Powerful Blastball except it has enough range to hit anything Moskurg has and it focuses its energy forwards, allowing it to pierce armour just like a Blastshell.
The advantages are many and numerous:
- Increased accuracy. Random accuracy loss due to the propellant explosion, rifle variations, recoil, and projectile aerodynamics are no longer factors.
- Lower energy costs. It takes three Blastballs in order to propel a shell - which has the payload of a Blastball - to the range that it does. The PAW, on the other hand, does not need to spend energy propelling mass and it uses the Long range that already comes with Blastballs to reduce energy costs further. It will not need to cast a single additional Blastball to deliver a payload of a Blastshell.
- Faster reloading. HA1s need you to eject and put in shells, possibly retargetting to account for recoil. There's no need to do anything more than connect the PAW46, giving it a rate of fire as fast as you can supply it with magical energy. Give one enough energy and it could do fully automatic fire with zero recoil.
- Increased reliability. The PAW46 has no moving parts and there is not a single part of it that inherently requires something inside it to explode.
- Lower size/weight and increased portability. Self-explanatory. Should give us a great edge in the Mountains. It also makes it faster to set up, giving them greater tactical flexibility and potential.
- No ammunition! Aside from the magic energy cost, the PAW requires no ammunition whatsoever. A single reactor or aethergem could potentially power it on its own. This will do great wonders for our vehicular future and infantry firearms, to say nothing of what it does for our logistics.
- Easy design. It is essentially a large crystal wand with circuitry that shoots longer-ranged, focused Powerful Blastballs. It is a very easy design, using technologies in no new ways and advancing in an area we have an extreme amount of experience in.
tl;dr. A large crystal wand with circuitry that shoots a variant of Powerful Blastballs called Pierceballs that can pierce armour as well as Blastshells at such a range that it can hit anything Moskurg has. Objectively significantly better than the HA1 in all ways and super easy to design.
Quote
DESIGN
0 - Living Cloud (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533431#msg7533431):
1 - ASAF-O47 "Oracle" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533464#msg7533464): Chiefwaffles
1 - AS PAW46 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533487#msg7533487): Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 11, 2017, 11:58:30 pm
As it is now effecting the team as a whole, I'm going to give fair warning to CW and RAM. If you get salty again, the team as a whole will shut you down. Just don't.Completely unnecessary. It has already been discussed. I don't need an extra warning from you, and I'm sure RAM doesn't either.
I just don't get the Manticore, honestly.
If you want a mobile HA1, revise the train to have HA1 wagons or revise the Protector to fix it and/or add a HA1. The Manticore feels like it's just wasting a design on a revision. Though the idea of mobile artillery is fine in my eyes. Just not using a design on it. Besides, their artillery is already mobile. And airborne. And really fast. And roughly three range units longer-ranged than the HA1. If we try wheeling our artillery up, powered or not, they can just move their artillery back. While still firing at us and the artillery.
Putting a clip in the AS-R1 seems like just a worse version of any form of crystal summoning. We have magic, let's use it instead of just needlessly forcing ourselves to go by the same technological path taken in the real world.
And Lucky Strike, again - it wouldn't be of benefit to us. Lucky Strike isn't "miracle strike". It won't help the Lightning at all, as the turret just can't track the faster-moving targets fast enough and Lucky Strike doesn't fix that. Our artillery wouldn't be helped because Lucky Strike doesn't magically increase the range of projectiles either.
EDIT:
Andres:
Quote from: Chiefwaffles (Discord)
Chiefwaffles - Today at 9:50 PM
Also @evictedSaint Can I get a definitive answer on the "Blastballs V. Armor" question? Based on either testing it against Moskurg armor or just our experiences engineering our crystal to tolerate Blastballs, do we know how well Blastballs would fare against Moskurg armored designs?
Even a simple "I'm not willing to tell you" would suffice
Quote from: evictedSaint (Discord)
evictedSaint - Today at 10:19 PM
it's not effective
it's the difference between lighting off a bunch of gunpowder vs lighting off a bunch of gunpowder wrapped in metal shrapnel
Post by: andrea on August 12, 2017, 01:08:12 am
Post by: RAM on August 12, 2017, 01:51:28 am
I believe that the oracle has too many flaws to be viable as proposed.
Spoiler: it would be better with a new hull (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: the air supply doesn't work (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: The propulsion most likely already functions in a vacuum (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: The proposed changes to the propulsion would not help much (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Crystal optics are not that developed, and would not penetrate storms (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: the armament is insufficient, undersupplied, and difficult to lift. (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: aiming would be difficult (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: suggestions (click to show/hide)
I do not rightly understand why setting off gunpowder next to an airship would fail to damage it, there ought to be relatively loose components and it has no heavy objects to brace itself against, and a volume of gunpowder sufficient to generate an explosion large enough to spread over a squad of one hundred men is not exactly healthy, even for materiel, but that should not be a problem. We have spent 4 actions on a sustained, directed explosion. We can probably adjust the spread so that it is somewhat similar to a shaped-charge. I would not expect full shaped-charge efficiency on the first attempt, but it should be possible to get something more effective against armour than what we currently have.
I also worry that it would be very difficult to get much range out of it. I proposed a few range-enhancing magics ages ago, but none made the cut... It might go beyond medium, but that, I expect would be it. So this would be a short-range option that would likely never replace long-range cannons. That said, It would likely be a wonderful technology for our aircraft. Especially if it could manage some sort of parallel-casting apparatus that could charge up for a few minutes and then unleash a few dozen in the span of a couple of seconds with zero recoil... We could probably do that with multiple parallel circuits or using the channelled fog/K.P.D.1 rapid-casting magic and a few dedicated batteries to hold the charge.
I support a principal of never referring to other players. So long as we don't say "this idea is wrong because someone is just making things up" or "this idea is wrong because someone is only opposing it because they have a personal problem with someone else" or "this idea is wrong because someone doesn't understand the subject" then it should negate direct personal issues, and such things really have no bearing upon whether or not an idea is sound. And it ought to be pretty easy to quote examples of repeating points if there is a circular argument. I feel repeat arguments are permissible if the topic repeats. If someone says "whales can fly" and someone replies "I am not familiar with any species of whales that can fly and thus do not believe that they exist", then it is fine to repeat yourself if there is a subsequent proposal that works due to "being just like real flying whales" because the new proposal has been unchallenged and people can't be expected to recall every argument for every proposal that has occurred. But repeated arguments against the same proposal should be fair game for condemnation.
I'm just sending this via PM to avoid polluting the thread.Not that it would have worked, for reasons stated later, but it was completely impossible to have any form of discourse considering that.
Quote
User 'Chiefwaffles' has blocked your personal message.It seems painfully obvious that this would either be completely meaningless as a one-sided conversation or get into the thread. Given that you actually sent it, I assume that you believed it to have meaning, and thus assume that you want it in the thread. But I am happy to admit that I could be wrong. If you wish to discuss the merits of saying things that you believe to be meaningless, or the meaningfulness of completely one-sided conversations, in public, so that everyone can know the circumstances, then that is fine by me.
So you said this in the thread -So, as I was going to say in private.QuoteI support a principal of never referring to other players. So long as we don't say "this idea is wrong because someone is just making things up" or "this idea is wrong because someone is only opposing it because they have a personal problem with someone else" or "this idea is wrong because someone doesn't understand the subject" then it should negate direct personal issues, and such things really have no bearing upon whether or not an idea is sound. And it ought to be pretty easy to quote examples of repeating points if there is a circular argument. I feel repeat arguments are permissible if the topic repeats. If someone says "whales can fly" and someone replies "I am not familiar with any species of whales that can fly and thus do not believe that they exist", then it is fine to repeat yourself if there is a subsequent proposal that works due to "being just like real flying whales" because the new proposal has been unchallenged and people can't be expected to recall every argument for every proposal that has occurred. But repeated arguments against the same proposal should be fair game for condemnation.
The problem with this is simple: This hasn't worked in the past. You've critiqued my designs numerous times without directly referring to me, but it still ends up with the same exact thing every time. You critique my design, I defend it by refuting your points, and it's just a whole cycle as we both get madder. It doesn't work.
It's better to just tread more lightly when it comes to responding to/reading each other's posts. Critiquing is fine of course since it'd be pretty stupid if we couldn't talk about each other's designs, but just... tread lightly. Try to be more concise. You state your point, I state mine, and that's it. We should both try to avoid having the last word.
Quote
If you want to discus policy then you will have to take it to the thread. It is not a private forum and thus it is not up to me or you to dictate policy.Such a conversation would be, in my opinion, extremely rude to everyone else. I have rather a fondness for the truth, however, so setting up secret rules and not telling anyone looks like a problem to me, and thus I acknowledge that others who prefer a bit more tact might disagree. I cannot speak for them, however, so I can't appreciably take their perspective into consideration.
But seeing as it has become a public matter, I may as well cite what is wrong with the proposed alternative ruleset. When someone says "by making a boat shaped like a whale it can fly, because whales can fly" and this is cited as wrong because "whales have been extensively recorded and there is no reference to them flying. Sure, they can jump a bit, but definitely no extended unaided flight", and the response is "but whales are birds, and birds can fly" then one responds "whales are mammals, birds are birds, these are mutually exclusive categories, and even if they weren't, just because some birds can fly doesn't mean that all of them can. There are no records of whales flying, whales do not fly." then it is clear that the last response was necessary due to the inaccuracy of the penultimate. Now, obviously, if the penultimate statement was accurate, then the final statement will be incorrect, and that is a matter of what each person believes, but if the statement goes from "whales can fly" to "but whales really can fly" then one will be compelled to bolster their statement of "whales can't fly". And then someone posts proof that someone has genetically engineered something that qualifies as a whale and is capable of extended unaided flight and we are stuck with "huh? I guess they really can fly, but that still is not exactly relevant to a boat shaped like a hump-back suddenly being buoyant in sea-level air-pressure".
Now, obviously, if I am saying it, then I think that I am saying "whales can't fly". Nobody honestly believes that they are saying "the whale body-shape inherently conveys flight" unless they think that they can gain advantage by convincing others that it is true, or are trolling. But just "you can make and argument, then the original proposer can make a counter-argument and it arbitrarily ends with that." doesn't work because if an argument is free to go completely unchallenged then it is free to be as misleading as it likes.
Honestly, people should be grateful for criticism. If we could set aside the personal pride and just argue the statements in isolation then criticism is an opportunity to either refine a design and submit an improved version, or counter to criticism and defend your design from challenges that you otherwise would not have been aware of. I would love= well, I am not immune to pride, but I would appreciate it if my ideas were criticised with as much cohesion as I offer. That one instance of "just going to leave the pendulum rocket fallacy here" which, given context, and a complete lack of explanation, reeks of snide remark, was actually helpful. I had been humming-and-hawing over various solutions to the problem(And wasn't familiar with it as an official concept) but was distracted and forgot to resolve it, along with being generally tired of the proposal by then and rushing the end. So it was absolutely correct that the design I had submitted was flawed and so I fixed it. As it stands, the "Oracle" is, as far as I can tell, a very very very long way from working. I have made a significant effort to be constructive in my criticism of it. I honestly can't see how it is supposed to deal with CO2 poisoning and I cannot see how it keeps summoning new, permanent air, and never builds up the pressure to crush people. As far as I can tell it is adding to a sealed space and that means more pressure. It is adding oxygen to a closed system and that won't keep people breathing because a lack of oxygen won't be the first thing that would kill them. If I am wrong about this then you get to demonstrate as much so that the G.M. won't hit you with it later, if I think that you are wrong about why I am wrong then I get to say that because it is possible to be wrong in two different ways about the same thing and if that is the case then you are better off knowing so that you can do something about it. If I am correct then wouldn't you rather know about it so that you can submit something that actually works, rather than something that won't work if you realise something about it.
So I feel that, for the good of the integrity of our designs, people always be free to state if they see a problem in a design. And if they feel that their criticism is still relevant after a response to it, then they can cite why they feel that the response was insufficient. People should refrain from making interpersonal observations because personalities don't affect whether a design is good. "Even a broken clock is correct twice a day"... If you feel that you are under unusual amounts of scrutiny, then be thankful that it is coming from a player who you are free to disagree with instead of the G.M. who nerfed your design for something that you didn't see coming. People should avoid cluttering the thread. Repeating the same argument to the same argument is a definite problem, so no to that, even if it can sometimes be valid, but stifling constructive criticism is not a good thing.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 12, 2017, 02:40:58 am
Spoiler: The Hull (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Air Supply (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Propulsion (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Crystal Optics (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Armament (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Aiming (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Suggestions (click to show/hide)
Again - the majority of your problems seem to be to me that the Oracle is very imperfect, and it is, but I think it should be.
Because I just don't think we have the time to perfect every single system going into the Oracle - the optics, the weapons, everything. I think we're better off designing the Oracle then revising it or designing new spacecraft/weapons/etc. to take advantage of what we learn or do with the Oracle.
For example, see Moskurg. They started winning when they deployed carpets. Carpets. Completely unarmored, much slower than they are now, and I think more expensive. Carpets weren't perfect in any way, but they still let Moskurg win. Because it was a new aspect of warfare.
Unfortunately, we don't have any more "conventional" aspects of war to introduce to force Moskurg on their back feet. So we have to be inventive. Space may not be used in the modern world (yet), but it'd be ridiciously effective. Even if the Oracle hits 1% of the time, is slow, has bad weaponry, and has to make constant return trips, it'll still be effective.
Because it's a new part of warfare. Moskurg won't be able to do anything as they're sniped from orbit. Then we can improve while Moskurg struggles to catch up
TL;DR: The Oracle definitely isn't perfect, but as long as it works with its central idea of "go to space; shoot at Moskurg", it should be huge. Remember when Moskurg started winning when they made unarmored relatively-slow flying carpets? We'd be bringing the "new realm of warfare" to a whole 'nother level. But we're running out of time and I just don't think we can afford to make the independent systems good enough beforehand.
Post by: Andres on August 12, 2017, 03:56:56 am
Chiefwaffles, if you want a space weapon, vote for the PAW. The recoilless, massless, infinite ammo nature of the PAW will help greatly with any space-based weapon. Consider it a prerequisite tech.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 12, 2017, 04:37:57 am
It incorporates a new (smaller) hull, is only manned by 1-person, and instead of lugging a HC1-E + ammo to space, it simply brings along a modified crystal fabricator to summon super-heavy crystal rods to drop down to Earth. I've separated the Oracle into two subcategories - variant A and variant B. I actually kind of prefer Variant B but am voting for both variants for now.
More feedback is definitely appreciated.
Design: ASAF-O47 "Oracle" (Variant B)
Space.
The realm beyond ours. For centuries, Arstotzka's researchers have wondered about the possibilities that lie beyond the veil of our skies, but it was only with the advent of magic that interest started to garner. And now, with the KPD, space may soon be ours. The O46 (Orbiter 947) Oracle will be the vehicle to reach space. It may not be easy, but it's possible.
Spoiler: Fluff (click to show/hide)
Hull - A reactor above a small crystal-glass (and crystal optic - get to that later) cabin housing the pilot, controls, and weapon. Armor should be minimal.
Weapon - A single
Atmosphere
Atmosphere Regulation Circuits - The Fireball, a spell we've mastered, is basically just "gas mix + energy". We take out the "energy" part, tweak the gas mix, then make a passive circuit like cooling circuits to keep a certain gas mix. Combine with cooling circuitry and bam, we can keep the atmosphere of any space regulated.
Vacuum KPD - Apply the ARC here to keep a bare gas mix for the KPD to operate in. Should still be passive since we need a simpler gas mix + smaller volume even if the KPD does increase the strain, but if we have to make it active circuitry, then it can use power from the Reactor instead of the KPD since we don't need to be as fast/agile in space.
Targeting
Crystal Optics - We finally design Crystal Optics, using our experience with Crystal + the Crystalworks to make a form of crystal that greatly magnifies things behind it. We put this all over the cockpit to allow for the crew to be able to get limited sight and targeting on the ground. It won't be perfect (yet) of course, but it should definitely work.
Enemy Targetting (Not a component) - Moskurger artillery nests, large troop emplacements, forts, bases, castles, cities, farms, fleets, and perhaps their bigger airships, should be able to be targeted to varying degrees of efficiency. Basically anything "big". Should of course be combined with daily-ish orders from Command. We can also finally make blind-flares useful, as the extra brightness should make them visible to the Oracle so troops on the ground can use them to summon orbital strikes.
Expense - Logically, on a "normal" roll, the Oracle should just be Expensive as it shouldn't be adding anything more expensive to the Lightning and is even decreasing armor, and is made by the Crystalworks. But I probably won't complain any expense this gets. Because it's a spacecraft. In a magic-based Arms Race.
TL;DR - Modify the Lightning to go into space, give it Crystal Optics + a HC1-E, then annihilate Moskurg from above. This is actually much simpler than I thought it'd be.
Space.
Quote
DESIGN
0 - Living Cloud (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533431#msg7533431):
1 - ASAF-O47 "Oracle": Chiefwaffles
1 - Oracle Variant A (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533464#msg7533464): Chiefwaffles
1 - Oracle Variant B (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533590#msg7533590): Chiefwaffles
1 - AS PAW46 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533487#msg7533487): Andres
Post by: RAM on August 12, 2017, 05:16:06 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Conventional fields include guided missile submarines, commandos, merchant shipping, fixed defences(landmines), chemical/biological weapons... Not that I want conventional fields. We could open up magical fields, like incorporeal forces or weather suppression or city-sized force-fields or region-wide background effects. The most effective game-changers have been antimagic(we were crippled twice by hard counters from that) and frost towers(change the world with magic!). We could still deny them the sky and gain more than trying to compete with them in air-power.
I honestly believe that Oracle is about three designs away from functioning as a space-design. It might act as a downward-firing high-altitude lightning in the meantime, but that is not what is being advertised and it is not what is being built. Honestly, if you want that then you should go for that. If it can still see the target then a gun might work against airships and be too high to retaliate against with their current arsenal. I still feel that its operational time would be too short to be ground-breaking, but it might be useful. It might cripple their long-ranged artillery for a turn before they design something to counter it? It would be a stepping-stone that could contribute. It could have an air-system that operated with a small outlet vent and constant air generation, which would not work in space but would be a stepping stone. The gun would be useless from space, but, ehh, It can probably cover 3 or 4 kilometres straight down and still be effective. I really am not versed in how long it takes for drag to slow a bullet. It is probably a pretty simple bullet velocity + drag acceleration + gravity acceleration situation, but I don't care to go into specific, I just know that your bullet will slow down as it travels, even going straight down, provided that the air is thick enough, and it probably will be thick enough until about 20 kilometres up. But if we do that then they will probably pull up an atmospheric spell and fly around half-naked in temperature controlled spheres of breathable air. (Have I mentioned how irritating it is that they got perfect temperature control in what feels like a revision when it is sort of our thing? We should totally beat them at wind spells...)
I am unclear how the P.A.W. can get that range. It seems to be fundamentally a spell and thus far spells have all had a maximum range. As far as I can tell, they just go a certain distance and then stop... they just pulled out the B.L.O.S.+1 gun and we have medium-range fireballs?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 12, 2017, 05:32:09 am
I mean, seriously. We spend an extreme amount of effort into cold magic and fireballs and Evicted gives them a material that is immune to heat. Not heat resistant, not insulating, but immune to heat. With perfect temperature control! And we spent a while on temperature control and I don't even think it's nearly as good as their armor is.
But whatever. Evicted's already said no to changing it.
I think you're putting a bit too much stock on the atmospheric thing, RAM. Think about it -
Spoiler: Why the ARC should work (click to show/hide)
Or in other words:
We have absolute mastery over the fireball (as evidenced by our insane fireball-related design bonuses).
So instead of making a Fireball spell that says "Shoot this ball of very specific gases at someone and give it energy to make it flame!", we make a spell that says "Keep this area at a very specific gas." Not trivial, but it's being given proper attention in the Oracle design.
And regarding cloud cover:
Moskurg hasn't prepared cloud cover for this - they've invested their wind magic to disrupt our shells directly instead of hiding their forces. That and the Oracle's main targets should be out of the range of Moskurg's combat spells that coincidentally have cloud covers. Yeah, there's a good chance that Moskurg will do something like cloud covers if we go with the Oracle, but we should be investing in better sighting tech by then regardless. Like your magic-based detection, Andrea's/my lucky strike-based stuff, etc.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 12, 2017, 10:21:20 am
Quote
DESIGN
0 - Living Cloud (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533431#msg7533431):
Variable - ASAF-O47 "Oracle": Chiefwaffles
1 - Oracle Variant A (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533464#msg7533464): Chiefwaffles
2 - Oracle Variant B (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533590#msg7533590): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
1 - AS PAW46 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533487#msg7533487): Andres
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 12, 2017, 12:59:59 pm
A variant on the fire wall using our force/blast creation knowledge. A line of energy is created in a wall like configuration which then flies out in a wave horizontally to wherever it was created, in the sky or close to the ground. Where ever the energy hits something it explodes out into a rolling blast of force that will shred whatever is hit. The spell is maintained and anchored by the caster constantly, allowing it to reach extreme distances. Even if it hits an anti magic field the effect will keep going forward for a long way, even if new magic can not be pumped in.
It is like a firewall, that flies towards you, form a great distance, and when it hits tears whatever is hit to pieces.
Rocket shell
The rocket shell is a new generation of extreme range projectile based on the Lightning, designed for the HA1 or Mundane. At it's core it has a miniaturized magic generator and a directional thrust blastball effect to propel it forward. Damage to the core, such as from impacting a target, causes an explosion like the older version of the generators. The main part of the shell is still made of iron, but has been shaped to fly through the air more accurately.
The shell has a timer built in to tell the magic generator when to shut off, it can theoretically stay on forever. The blast effect should be strong enough to keep the shell at maximum muzzle velocity throughout the flight. All circuits are hardened against anti magic.
My plan would be to then put a modified lucky strike on the rocket shell... then a modified manual flight version of lucky strike. Hit them with rockets.
Post by: andrea on August 12, 2017, 01:10:38 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 12, 2017, 01:14:23 pm
My master plan for the blastwave was to have it mounted on the lightning and our IFVs as an alternate weapon with a dedicated generator and just be constantly shooting out walls of death at the enemy at all heights. Then make a defensive version that is just a massive explosion dome/sphere around our vehicles constantly.
Post by: Kadzar on August 12, 2017, 04:05:53 pm
And, while I like the idea of the Oracle, and do believe we could achieve it in the near future, it requires enough new components to work right in order to function that I worry about pulling off a successful product.
But the thing that has me more worried is the targeting system. Even with telescopic lenses and no cloud cover or other atmospheric interference, I don't think we have the capacity to hit even a city-sized target from orbital range, which would be the minimum targeting precision we'd need to have a viable weapon.
But, even if the Oracle manages to work exactly as intended, it still won't be of much help since it does nothing to help protect our territories.
Even if we could target Zephyrs with it, or if we turned it on the Moskurg capitol, Moskurg already has a foothold in our home territory, and,
if we don't develop something to take down Skyskiffs, they are going to take more ground each turn:
Their Lightning gives them a foothold in the air, but until their ability to actually dogfight is addressed they'll continue to be beaten back at every turn.So even if we can manage to take a foothold in the Desert this turn, they'll have control of half the taiga at the same time. And, if they develop atmospheric counters to the Oracle, we'll need to develop something to defend against their continued assault, or if they decide not to bother, they can just pour more effort into the assault until there's nothing we can do to stop them.
The reason developing flying carpets was good for Moskurg wasn't just that it brought a "new realm of warfare", but that it gave them a very good defense while allowing them to target all of our most damaging-dealing assets. Whereas the Oracle would have pretty much perfect defense (for now), but only be able to target their least-damaging assets. The Oracle will have a use eventually, but it's not what we need right now.
Post by: RAM on August 12, 2017, 04:47:02 pm
Much as we would like to claim our brilliance in this matter, it really was more of an accident. One of our researchers was attempting to increase the range of a flare spell by granting it an inherent inclination to move, as opposed to relying solely upon its initial impetus to travel from its origin. Instead of a flare that wanted to move, they produced a flare whose entire volume consisted of light aligned in a single direction. It took quite a bit of testing to figure that out, but the spontaneous illumination of a small spot on the far wall was rather obvious in hindsight. Seeing that blinding flares can be effective as a weapon, we decided to see if this new light was harmful. The results were odd. At the initial testing it seemed no more damaging then a flare, though much more focused. This later turned out to be untrue due to a phenomena that will be discussed later, but it is not a highly impactful weapon unless it hits the eyes. At greater forces it inflicts a significant abrasive effect. When e started hooking it up to large magic sources in a controlled environment, it started punching holes in things, but it seemed to primarily result in heat, which is unfortunate...
A different effect was noted however. This effect we are preliminarily referring to as "chaos" as it seems to inherently degrade, well, anything, but mostly light materials and complex structures, it seems that the power required to degrade an object rises with its heft, but it also seems that the effect can travel through light materials to damage something that is visibly obscured. We have instituted lead-lining to the research facility and this seems to have prevented most accidents... Flesh rapidly burns without heat, as though it had been out in the sun too long, but far more rapid, and the pace rises with input energy. We feel that this "chaos" is directly inimical to existence, and, should we be able to refine this beam into pure chaos, it should be largely impossible to stop.
Oddly, the range seems to increase and the ratio of heat to chaos seems to reduce as it becomes less visible. Such attunement will have to wait, however, as we will be refining the device to work in place of our short-range anti-air weaponry that has been having difficulty hitting the enemy's faster vehicles. We expect this to be effective as the effect travels instantaneously.
A visible to high ulltraviolet laser. Taking advantage of magic to have 100% of the energy converted into the beam with none of the usual heat issues, and also to remove the pesky difficulties with focusing equipment. We should be able to freely tweak it to any frequency that we like...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 12, 2017, 05:50:46 pm
We can just revise a super-low-power version of the KPD4 into the turret to allow for quick and easy turning.
The Oracle right now is defense through offense. If Moskurg's infrastructure and bases and camps and etc. are all being torn apart, they won't be able to advance.
Yes, they can develop cloud cover to avoid it. And they probably will. But hey can't his turn. And while they do that we can develop magic-based guidance (e.g. Lucky strike) that'll help the Oracle and our
Other forces while pre-emptively countering something like cloud cover.
Post by: RAM on August 12, 2017, 07:04:57 pm
We also do not know if logistics are modelled closely enough that attacking them could change the outcome of a battle. We would be dropping thousands of very inaccurate shells on hundreds of thousands of targets that are either mobile or can at least be repositioned. Assuming that it worked at all. It is a nice idea, but it lacks stopping-power and in my personal evaluation it is beyond the scope of our current abilities(at least three new high-performance elements, two of which we have almost no experience of.). We could work towards it. Get magic scopes, maybe convert Lucky Strike into "show me what we will hit if I don't take my finger off of the button" which could be applied to our current cannons. We could add an atmospheric circuit to a protector redesign. If it fails, then we still have a protector redesign instead of a spaceship that can't go into space. Get weightite summoning so that we have better ground ammunition and also something that can be summoned effectively as a mass bombardment. Get a force flm that operates without exhaust and instead just applies a direction, ideally with a choice of relative or absolute directions, to an object and causes it to move without actually applying an opposing force. We could even go for an inertia-pacification zone to ignore acceleration. Actually, inertia pacification, if it removed the inertia of the bullet when being fired from a cannon... nut then it would... Hmrn... It would be propelled by pressure rather than inertia... but would the cannon survive purely from its structural integrity if it effectively had no mass... And would the inertia pacification stop the bullet from having different inertia to its surroundings...
I really really really don't see that the atmosphere is viable, but if it is, if we can truly stretch our fireball experience that far, then how about this as a stop-gap measure to remove their fast fliers and heavy armour.
Pursuing Pressure Pebble.
Given our complete mastery of fireballs, and the fact that they produce mass, it
Vacuum traps
Our temperature circuits maintain a constant temperature. As everyone knows, temperature affects pressure, a cold region will have higher density than a warm region. We have mastered circuits and temperature magic and mathemagics, so it is no challenge at all to adjust these circuits in any way we like. In truth, since they already influence pressure, this application will definitely be a non-issue.
The theory is simple. We use mathemagics on our existing pressure-changing circuits to refine them to a zero value, the complete absence of pressure. Since pressure is produced by the density of mass, this means that mass cannot exist within the circle. So, once actuvated, the circuit will immediately dematerialise the air within it. This will pull in the surrounding air and dematerialise that too, creating a downward vortex of air akin to making a hole in the bottom of a bucket of water. This will draw in any nearby aircraft and, once they enter the area projected by the circuit, have their pressure, and thus existence, removed... We just set these up in front of our ground lines and wait for the enemy to get lose. Turn them on, wait for the carnage to subside, turn them off, and release our air forces to destroy the stragglers. We can also have scout parties draw up such formations under the enemy's artillery if they fail to watch the ground, which is pretty likely considering that they don't have any windows on the bottom and are not close enough to the ground to tell the difference between a horse and a cow...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 12, 2017, 07:30:47 pm
So if we start destroying their castles, forts, bases, camps, etc. etc., that's going to have a huge impact and will show up.
The thing about cloud cover is that Moskurg just doesn't have a way to create clouds and only clouds over a set area. Yes, a large part of their spells likely create a cloud cover as a side effect, but as a side effect. Their designs just won't be meant to disrupt orbital strikes. So this would fall under "using a spell for an unintended purpose," which is exactly what an Order, which must be given after the fact and rolled for, would be used for.
I mean, yeah. Moskurg would probably get something like a +6 if they revised a Cloud Cover spell. But my point is that they wouldn't have this beforehand, and by the time they do deploy it if they make it, we should have much better guidance (Lucky Strike, Lucky Strike-powered Guidance, Mindgem/Living, etc.) for all our weapons.
EDIT: Here's my powered turret revision. I think this (or something that accomplishes the same goals) should be a huge priority in revisions given how much of a problem the combat report made out non-tracking turrets to be.
(Near-)Future Revision: Lightning Powered Turret
We simply put an extremely downscaled KPD4 on the lightning turret and have it be accessed by controls inside the turret. The KPD4, being so downscaled, will be useless for actual movement, but will be able to very easily and very quickly rotate the turret with little to no power consumption. It's connected to the Reactor via the same wire as the actual turret gun, but the power draw should be negligible.
With this in place, we give the gunner a nice "comfy" buckled seat to sit in next to the controls and turret gun. Hopefully, the turret should experience great improvements in tracking capabilities.
Post by: milo christiansen on August 12, 2017, 08:22:11 pm
Post by: RAM on August 12, 2017, 10:14:37 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on August 13, 2017, 08:43:19 pm
Post by: Light forger on August 14, 2017, 12:50:25 am
So lets go through a few of the issues with the idea of a KKV with our tech.
- Pressurization: There is a very good chance we can't seal the vehicle well enough to keep the atmosphere inside which means the crew passes out at around 16,000ft(depending on where we are in relation to the equator).
- Oxygen: Not only is their no mention of creating oxygen to make up for what we would using but, also we would need to remove the co2 from the air. I don't see how our current regulation circuits do that.
- Targeting: So this is the big one in the since we are trying to complete a equation while both missing key variables and the other variables being guesswork. First off we have no way to gauge of the speed of the craft once we are in orbit. In addition we have no way to gauge how far the craft is from the planet. In addition seeing anything from orbit is really really hard and I doubt our very first telescope will have anywhere near the zoom level.
- Also their is a above average chance that our crystal could shatter or melt when coming through the atmosphere their is a reason tungsten is used for KKV's.
- Even if it does work the mission time is likely going to be fairly low it could take half a day going up and maybe a quarter coming back down combining with limited room for both food/water and, waste in conjunction with orbital mechanics the amount of time this thing can be useful is going to fairly low.
- Also a pure meta reason I kind doubt eS is going to add something this is almost uncountable for the other-side it would be like Moskurg making a giant island wide permanent lighting storm that only harms Arstotzkans
Quote from: Designs
0 - Living Cloud (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533431#msg7533431):
Variable - ASAF-O47 "Oracle": Chiefwaffles
1 - Oracle Variant A (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533464#msg7533464): Chiefwaffles
2 - Oracle Variant B (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533590#msg7533590): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
2 - AS PAW46 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533487#msg7533487): Andres, Lightforger
I'm not thrilled with AS PAW46 but, it better then whatever we will end up with from the oracle.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 14, 2017, 01:29:15 am
Pressurization: There is a very good chance we can't seal the vehicle well enough to keep the atmosphere inside which means the crew passes out at around 16,000ft(depending on where we are in relation to the equator).This is an easy one.
Crystal. It's better than steel (and we can lift it) and it's effectively 3D printed. It should be easier for us to create a sealed vehicle than it is for modern-day engineers. Since we can just print the crystal in the right shape.
Oxygen: Not only is their no mention of creating oxygen to make up for what we would using but, also we would need to remove the co2 from the air. I don't see how our current regulation circuits do that.I think I've touched on this before, but oh well.
The Atmospheric Regulator Circuitry, the ARC, is an important and explicit part of the Oracle. It makes up a significant part of the effort to go into the Oracle and is not just an afterthought. It explicitly keeps the atmosphere inside the craft breathable, and is based off of our mastery of the Fireball, which works via gases.
Yes, this is something new, but it's not an afterthought. It's at least a third of the design efforts. And it's based off of the Fireball. And I don't need to explain how well we know the Fireball.
Targeting: So this is the big one in the since we are trying to complete a equation while both missing key variables and the other variables being guesswork. First off we have no way to gauge of the speed of the craft once we are in orbit. In addition we have no way to gauge how far the craft is from the planet. In addition seeing anything from orbit is really really hard and I doubt our very first telescope will have anywhere near the zoom level
Right. I see a pretty big misconception here that I'd like to clear up for everyone beforehand.
The Oracle isn't actually orbiting around Earth. It's just hovering really high up. Not extremely easy, sure, but it's not like we're trying to invent a modern understanding of orbital mechanics here.
Also their is a above average chance that our crystal could shatter or melt when coming through the atmosphere their is a reason tungsten is used for KKV's.We have the denser "Weightite" Crystal which also still retains self-regenerating capabilities, so this shouldn't be a noticeable problem if one at all.
Even if it does work the mission time is likely going to be fairly low it could take half a day going up and maybe a quarter coming back down combining with limited room for both food/water and, waste in conjunction with orbital mechanics the amount of time this thing can be useful is going to fairly low.This is definitely possible, but well worth the potential benefits.
Also a pure meta reason I kind doubt eS is going to add something this is almost uncountable for the other-side it would be like Moskurg making a giant island wide permanent lighting storm that only harms ArstotzkansIf evicted isn't allowing the Oracle at all for meta reasons, then we would know that beforehand. Evicted isn't that cruel.
Post by: RAM on August 14, 2017, 02:32:16 am
Agreed on the oxygen. There is some theory that we have temperature regulation circuits that just directly fix the temperature, and that, combined with a spell that produces gasses, equals a spell that can fix the ambient gas composition to something breathable without converting the crew into gas(which would probably have utility as an effect...) or creating new gas, it just changes the existing gas. I figure that they actually operate spells and adjust them as needed, which would mean that we would be using a brand-new air creations spells and a completely unprecedented air destruction spell to counter it, that were each targeting specific aspect of the air rather than the "hotter or colder" of the temperature circuits, but that is an assumption on my end. I also figure that we don't have anywhere near the expertise with gasses to pull it off even if we did have an air-composition-fixing circuit. But again, this is all assumptions on my part. If it works as intended, then it just magically keeps the air at breathable levels directly. I feel that to be an extremely big if, but I may be in the minority there. So I put this one in the "impossible to pull off, even if we devoted a whole design to it, but theoretically works otherwise" category, based entirely upon my own assumptions, and I have been very wrong about what we can achieve before.
First telescope ever and it spots buildings from space, agree that it is overly ambitious even with mathematically-perfect crystals. Also we have no way to know where "down" is, so figuring out if you are looking at the spot directly beneath you, or the spot a dozen kilometres to the right of it, is not really possible. And they have constant storms from what I can tell, that include clouds, so, like, probably an order with a hefty bonus to remove it and a high chance of random bad weather getting in the way. but it could work if we roll really well...
continuing the previous into the following. They are not actually orbiting. Due to unlimited fuel they will just be loitering. Probably still needing to maintain a pretty high speed to maintain position relative to the ground, but much less than orbital velocities. And the crystals are indeed tough, so it seems viable? And apparently weightite is supposed to be a crystal now, a super dense one? When crystals are basically all about complex structures that kind of inhibit insane densities? I figure that it will be lucky if it breaches ten grams per mil, but whatever, a big enough lump ought to hurt, and will probably keep together due to not actually being at full orbital velocities.
Of course, the whole "not orbital velocities" thing does have its flaws. Due to inertia and surface area, a certain amount of speed will be required, but geosynchronous low-loiter should be much slower than orbit.
The enemy just build gauss guns and can control air along with levitation magic. I imagine that they can get to space easier than we can.
Of course, this all assumes that magic works at all in space. It could be that magic is generated at ground level and once you get out of the denser atmosphere you are stuck with the magic that you can carry with you. Which would actually benefit us, especially if we refined our dedicated batteries, but would still be a brute on space missions and could be something that E.S. would pull to keep us going too crazy with lunar colonisation.
But then, maybe moon magic is different to WandRWorld magic, so we could get a whole new set of spells for the satellite wars...
I would vote and add the other optiuons and reind folk that apparently we can vote for as many different things as we want, but my broser is dying and I can't be bothered restarting it and coming back for all this, so good luck! Imma Just vote for whatever LightForger wants...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 14, 2017, 02:59:46 am
How about this to prepare for the Oracle, since it seems to address peoples' number one concern?
Design: AS-OGS47 "TrueStrike" (Ordinance Guiding System)
Sure, Lucky Strike is a good spell and all, but it just doesn't work for what we need. Our weapons are already accurate - built without the crutch that is Lucky Strike. Instead, we need to prepare for the future. We need to create something that will allow our weapons to work nearly perfectly at any range!
Spoiler: Fluff (click to show/hide)
The Coregem processes Lucky Strike targeting information then sends it over to the MKPD. The MKPD will orient the gun to aim at the exact angles needed to hit the target. If the gun is connected to a power source, TrueStrike will automatically fire the gun. We aim to include future compability, so TrueStrike should also automatically "reload" the weapon if possible. Otherwise it'll emit a nicely-shrill beep for the gunner to insert new ammunition or to fire the weapon if it's not powered.
Coregem - We take a (solid-state [like the Reactor2 aethergems] if possible) AAethergem, model the "magical insides" extremely slightly (the modification itself shouldn't be hard because of the Crystal Glass gem manufacturing process) after bits of a wasp mind, and use it as basically a primitive CPU. Basically just condensed bit-more-advanced circuitry.
Lucky Strike - We translate just the "targeting" bits of Lucky Strike and put them inside the Coregem. The Coregem interprets the targeting data, and feeds exact angles to the MKPD in order to hit the target.
MKPD - An extremely downscaled KPD4 that's just strong enough to rotate (and hold in place if that's needed) all of our existing guns; namely the AS-HAC-1 + Lightning turret gun but also preferably the HA1 too. Shouldn't have great power desires. Powered by Coregem, but add in extra power generation if needed.
Integration - Just some simple integration to existing circuitry should allow TrueStrike to automatically fire a weapon if it's hooked up to power. Also future compatibility for reloading the weapon automatically if we ever do that.
Operation - Coregem picks up target, interprets data, sends exact angles necessary to hit target to the MKPD. MKPD aims gun at exact spot, TrueStrike fires the gun (if possible), and either reloads it + repeats or beeps for gunner to reload it then repeats.
TL;DR - An automatic targeting system for our guns.
I still prefer the Oracle, but this:
- Solves the targeting issue for Oracle in the future.
- Allows for fully autonomous guns if we do automatic reloading/CAF/guns that don't need reloading or even just mostly-autonomous guns if hooked up to power; it'd just need humans to reload it.
- Greatly helps the Lightning turret (May have to be integrated in revision, but upgrading the Lightning's turret is planned anyways right?)
- Greatly increases the effectiveness of all our existing cannons
Quote from: Designs
0 - Living Cloud (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533431#msg7533431):
Variable - ASAF-O47 "Oracle": Chiefwaffles
1 - Oracle Variant A (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533464#msg7533464): Chiefwaffles
2 - Oracle Variant B (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533590#msg7533590): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
2 - AS PAW46 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533487#msg7533487): Andres, Lightforger
1 - AS-OGS47 "TrueStrike" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7535540#msg7535540): Chiefwaffles
Because while I prefer the Oracle, sidegrading our artillery to do the same thing but now with 20% more magic (the PAW) won't really help us.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 14, 2017, 09:33:45 am
Quote from: Designs
0 - Living Cloud (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533431#msg7533431):
Variable - ASAF-O47 "Oracle": Chiefwaffles
1 - Oracle Variant A (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533464#msg7533464): Chiefwaffles
1 - Oracle Variant B (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533590#msg7533590): Chiefwaffles
2 - AS PAW46 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533487#msg7533487): Andres, Lightforger
2 - AS-OGS47 "TrueStrike" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7535540#msg7535540): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
Post by: helmacon on August 14, 2017, 09:43:36 am
I guess just add me to the true strike then...
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 14, 2017, 09:58:20 am
Quote from: Designs
0 - Living Cloud (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533431#msg7533431):
Variable - ASAF-O47 "Oracle": Chiefwaffles
1 - Oracle Variant A (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533464#msg7533464): Chiefwaffles
1 - Oracle Variant B (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533590#msg7533590): Chiefwaffles
2 - AS PAW46 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533487#msg7533487): Andres, Lightforger
3 - AS-OGS47 "TrueStrike" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7535540#msg7535540): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, helmacon
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 14, 2017, 10:41:42 am
Quote from: Designs
0 - Living Cloud (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533431#msg7533431):
Variable - ASAF-O47 "Oracle": Chiefwaffles
1 - Oracle Variant A (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533464#msg7533464): Chiefwaffles
1 - Oracle Variant B (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533590#msg7533590): Chiefwaffles
2 - AS PAW46 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533487#msg7533487): Andres, Lightforger
4 - AS-OGS47 "TrueStrike" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7535540#msg7535540): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, helmacon, voidslayer
Post by: Gwolfski on August 14, 2017, 01:05:52 pm
Quote from: Designs
0 - Living Cloud (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533431#msg7533431):
Variable - ASAF-O47 "Oracle": Chiefwaffles
1 - Oracle Variant A (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533464#msg7533464): Chiefwaffles,gwolfsk
2 - Oracle Variant B (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533590#msg7533590): Chiefwaffles,
2 - AS PAW46 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533487#msg7533487): Andres, Lightforger
4 - AS-OGS47 "TrueStrike" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7535540#msg7535540): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, helmacon, voidslayer
Post by: Kadzar on August 14, 2017, 04:09:39 pm
Quote from: Designs
0 - Living Cloud (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533431#msg7533431):
Variable - ASAF-O47 "Oracle": Chiefwaffles
1 - Oracle Variant A (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533464#msg7533464): Chiefwaffles,gwolfsk
2 - Oracle Variant B (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533590#msg7533590): Chiefwaffles,
2 - AS PAW46 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533487#msg7533487): Andres, Lightforger
5 - AS-OGS47 "TrueStrike" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7535540#msg7535540): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, helmacon, voidslayer, Kadzar
Post by: Gwolfski on August 14, 2017, 04:54:31 pm
Quote from: Designs
0 - Living Cloud (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533431#msg7533431):
Variable - ASAF-O47 "Oracle": Chiefwaffles
1 - Oracle Variant A (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533464#msg7533464): Chiefwaffles,
2 - Oracle Variant B (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533590#msg7533590): Chiefwaffles, Gwolfski
2 - AS PAW46 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533487#msg7533487): Andres, Lightforger
5 - AS-OGS47 "TrueStrike" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7535540#msg7535540): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, helmacon, voidslayer,
Post by: RAM on August 14, 2017, 05:13:20 pm
Spoiler: I think that Truestrike is unlikely to work. (click to show/hide)
Quote from: Designs
0 - Living Cloud (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533431#msg7533431):
Variable - ASAF-O47 "Oracle": Chiefwaffles
1 - Oracle Variant A (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533464#msg7533464): Chiefwaffles
2 - Oracle Variant B (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533590#msg7533590): Chiefwaffles, gwolfsk
2 - AS PAW46 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533487#msg7533487): Andres, Lightforger
0 - Blastwave (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533868#msg7533868):
1 - Rocket shell (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7533868#msg7533868): RAM
0 - Light Beam (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7534031#msg7534031):
5 - AS-OGS47 "TrueStrike" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7535540#msg7535540): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, helmacon, voidslayer, Kadzar
Post by: evictedSaint on August 14, 2017, 05:14:33 pm
Post by: helmacon on August 14, 2017, 05:38:04 pm
-snip-
I also dislike true strike, but I don't have the time to write an alternative. If you were to write a more general usage of lucky strike, I would likely vote for it.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 14, 2017, 05:59:45 pm
Post by: RAM on August 14, 2017, 06:09:27 pm
A derivative of the antimagic charm/aethergem, this charm continuously accumulates magic and focuses it into pure luck derived from the Lucky Strike spell, much as an antimagic charm generates sound. This makes an aura of good forune around the wearer that constantly makes them more successful in everything that they do and allows them to naturally evade harm and failure. We expect this to aid in aiming, survival, sneaking, choosing between possible enemy troop movements... everything really.
This relies upon luck being an actual thing, rather than lucky strike being a pure divination effect with no actual luck involved. And it is as general-purpose as I could think of.
Lucky Lens
This is a somewhat magnified lens on a tube that can be affixed to a gun, near to its firing chamber. By invoking the circuit, the viewer links the spell to themselves and allows the spell to focus on whatever the viewer is trying to hit. The lens then projects a vision using a flare spell onto the lens, depicting where the chosen target will be from the viewers perspective when the bullet would reach the same distance as them should they make the decision to fire at that moment.
Making a lens is not crazily easy, but we have good crystal engineering and there are no requirements on it beyond any magnification at all, so that should not be a big detractor and might get us beginning lensing. Flare spells and circuitry are well established, so making an image shouldn't be much trouble. The whole of the output is the image, so it is a simple operation at that end. And the rest is prediction, which seems to be what lucky strike does?
Post by: Andres on August 14, 2017, 06:16:18 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 14, 2017, 06:23:17 pm
But yeah, it's meant to be an upgrade to our weapons in general. Though stuff like the HA1 may take modification (because I think you have to move the entire HA1 to aim it), and we'll see how our luck turns out in terms of its immediate application.
Worst case scenario in application, we get the tech but we don't get it on any of our guns. This is fine because we'd be revising the Lightning turret anyways and can just throw it in that revision. And until we get functional artillery again the lightning turret is really the only place where its application actually matters.
Best case scenario, it immediately applies to every gun we have. In which case, great.
Mostly I'm just trying to be a little less micromanage-y in my designs, for everyone's sake.
Post by: helmacon on August 14, 2017, 07:05:11 pm
I'd be willing to vote for either, though I think the first would be more likely to work out better. Actually, yea. Go ahead and add my vote to the prosperity pebble.
Post by: evictedSaint on August 14, 2017, 09:51:06 pm
Neglecting the "numbers and letters" style of naming, TrueStrike remains true to its origins as a Moskurg-derived spell. This upsets numerous generals and commanders, but the name has been chosen and will thus stick.
TrueStrike is mainly a derivative of Lucky Strike, a Moskurg spell in which the projectiles are "blessed" upon firing, letting them strike truer against foriegn targets. The spell is particularly effective against stationary or slow-moving targets, as the spell seems like a derivation of "Divining" magic, which predicts where the target is likely to be.
The spellwork is...a mess. Desciphering the spell alone was an arduous task, requiring length translation from Moskurg to Arstotzkan. The spell doesn't follow the rigid "line-by-line" method of spell-weaving as we do, instead relying heavily on what seems to be...poetry? The lines make no sense, and seem to coincide in the right places by utter chance. Entire segments of the spell seem to do absolutely nothing, but are crucial for it to function. Most annoying is a particular cornerstone of the spell in which the user must loudly praise the Southerner's God in order to properly direct the threads of magic through the spell.
Despite our best efforts, we could not remove that particular bit.
Eventually, we manage to distill the spell down to a module, requiring a golden scroll, a D-level Aethergem, and silver etchings - along with the usual copper scroll, anti-anti-magic circuits, and anti-mage sequencing gems. This can be socketed into an R1 to gift the spell to the weapons projectiles, which boosts the accuracy from Medium Range all the way out to Extreme Range.
We were unfortunately unable to hook the spell up to automatically fire the gun for the user, but the user should see remarkable improvement to their aim at all distances. National Effort.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 14, 2017, 10:17:37 pm
National Effort, only for the R1, and it's just Lucky Strike. I mean, disregarding expense it's actually really useful, but National Effort on something like this just makes it effectively useless. I really do wish we could stop getting such awful rolls. A 4/6 on Effectiveness/Bugs is nice, but just isn't useful with a 1 on Expense.
I guess we're better off just discarding this design while being happy we have our own version of Lucky Strike to work off of for future designs. I definitely don't think the Expense credit is worth it quite yet.
imagine what we could have done with those rolls on the Oracle.
But I've asked evicted and it seems like basically what we did here was just decipher Lucky Strike. Most of the effort went into doing that, at least.
This feels necessary:
Revision: Powered Lightning Turrets (MKPD)
We create a radically downscaled version of the KPD4, deemed "MKPD" - the "M" standing for "Miniature". The difference in scale should be so great that the MKPD should have an almost negligible power draw.
Then we put a MKPD in the Lightning turret, hook it up to the power input, and put the controls along with a seat in the center of the turret for the gunner.
This should allow for the Lightning's turret to very easily and quickly track targets of any speed as the turret can be very quickly rotated using the controls inside by the gunner.
This one could be considered a stretch, but all we're doing is just ripping out the useful part of TrueStrike and wiring it to a known type of crystal.
Revision: Mageglass Targeting Suite
Note: "Mageglass" = "Reactive Crystal Glass" = That crystal glass we use to make Magegems.
The idea here is simple - take out a component from TrueStrike and make it its own device as to avoid the typical Moskurger kludges holding us back with TrueStrike.
Spoiler: Fluff (click to show/hide)
The Mageglass Targetting Suite should be applied to the Lightning Turret first, and Combat Armor visors second.
TL;DR: Take TrueStrike, rip out "divination", and wire it to Mageglass (the special-ish Crystal Glass we use to make Magegems) in order to highlight targets. Should be much cheaper since we don't have to actually bless the projectiles, which one would assume to be the hard part. (After all, you have to "program" each projectile with the destination, have it actually be "guided" there, continue updating on target, etc. etc.).
Chances are we're probably just going to do one revision at a time, though I'm putting both in the Votebox since I, personally, would like to get it over with quicker.
Quote
REVISION 1
1 - Powered Lightning Turrets (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536433#msg7536433): Chiefwaffles
REVISION 2
1 - Mageglass Targetting Suite (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536433#msg7536433): Chiefwaffles
Post by: RAM on August 14, 2017, 11:34:45 pm
Also, cost is generally regarded as the best feature to roll badly on. Effectiveness tends to discern if it functions at all. Bugs tend to bring you to the realm of doing more harm than good, expense means that you have a thing that helps, but you want more of it. So I would actually consider this to be a solidly good roll. I mean, better if it had been 6+1+4 but 4+1+6 is still nice.
Honestly, for our first spell in a completely new school, this is pretty good, I might have liked a bit more considering that we invested an espionage in it, but I can easily see this as the result of flying too high and getting melted aviation peripherals(M.A.P.s).
Light-Amplifying Material Plates
A circuit, ideally with the ability to be toggled on and off, perhaps using some very simply peg that completes the circuit and can be produced in redundant quantities, but the engineers are(as always) free to use their own initiative that activates a highly modified flare spell. This works similar to our temperature circuits, but instead acts upon a refined flare spell to add more light if it drops below specific levels. The difficult part of this will be that it is not intended to apply to the material, but rather to the vision that it allows. Things viewed through these clear crystals will appear as though it is ideal conditions. Given that our forces are fighting under black stormclouds, this should be a massive improvement to visibility. Ideally this would be applied to all viewing ports, prioritising our pilots but also extending to our gunners, drivers, and armoured foot-soldiers, in that order.
Getting it to apply to, and modify, light, seems very ambitious. The flare does illuminate though, and the crystals are known territory that have already proved receptive to an enchantment in the form of regeneration. It is technically just a modification to flares, continuing to use them for illumination of things. It really is a lot to ask from a revision, but I am feeling lucky! Well, a little, my luck senses are a bit rusty...
Conveyance Augmentation By Linking Entities
We take our standard circuitry, grind it up, Use it to fill cloth tubes, cover them in tar, then wrap that in leather. This ought to make a flexible "sock" that can transmit vast concentrations of magic. We run these socks through the armour of some roughly slapped-together crystals carts that contain reactors. Use some tar and a clamp to glue one of these socks to a magem and it'll keep the thing charged from the reactor's supply. We hope that these will allow our Mundanes and Crystalworks to operate much faster.
Post by: helmacon on August 15, 2017, 01:50:47 am
Revision: honest strike
Now that the most arduous process of the translation is done, we can analyse each component of the spell individually and reduce redundancy. By defining the specific functions of each part of the spell and replacing it with our own equivalent, we can create the same effects at a much more efficient (and cheaper) ratio.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 15, 2017, 09:00:17 am
*consider's Myark's anger at having to praise Moskurg's god*
On second thought, no. Well, maybe. Let's see if we can remove the nasty bits first.
~~~
Quote
REVISION 1Making this thing cheaper could be really handy. Once that's done, we can apply it to our cannons and whatnot... I think it's more useful than a targeting suite, unless the targeting suite can zoom and be crystal optics. On the other hand, powered lightning turrets would be very helpful. Let's do both.
2 - Powered Lightning Turrets (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536433#msg7536433): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
REVISION 2
1 - Mageglass Targetting Suite (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536433#msg7536433): Chiefwaffles
2 - Honest Strike: helmacon, FallacyofUrist
Post by: Kadzar on August 15, 2017, 09:09:50 am
We could always give it to Myark...I think only the crystal has to praise Moskurg's god, but it wouldn't hurt to have the spell be cheaper. Then again, we really need something to shoot down Skyskiffs, so I guess I'll vote for better turrets for now (unless I can be convinced that cheaper True Strike will help in that regard.)
*consider's Myark's anger at having to praise Moskurg's god*
On second thought, no. Well, maybe. Let's see if we can remove the nasty bits first.
~~~
Quote
REVISION 1
3 - Powered Lightning Turrets (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536433#msg7536433): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Kadzar
REVISION 2
1 - Mageglass Targetting Suite (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536433#msg7536433): Chiefwaffles
2 - Honest Strike: helmacon, FallacyofUrist
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 15, 2017, 09:11:28 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 15, 2017, 10:13:47 am
It's just too expensive. If we waste a revision on cheapening it, best case scenario it'll become Very Expensive. Where it will still be largely useless in the overall tides of battle. So then we'd have to waste another revision or even our expense credit on it to get it to Expensive, where it starts being useful.
Or we can wait and make a better design at another time or salvage what we can with a revision. I think Mageglass Targetting Suite is the best idea in this regard, but there are multiple ways to salvage TrueStrike without wasting at least two actions on it.
Post by: evictedSaint on August 15, 2017, 12:54:37 pm
Post by: RAM on August 15, 2017, 03:42:54 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I hate to do this, but we really can't afford to just keep throwing away our designs. It rolled a one on cost so it should be bad luck more than technical issues that raised the cost, so it should be pretty easy, unless it overshot by a lot, which is certainly possible considering that it is complex spellwork on every gun... Of course, Cable is easy and effective. We get our reactors working and it is just a revision to make our circuits flexible and putting some very simple armour and wheels on a reactor. Won't be invulnerable but it ought to be functional and it gets us over our inability to use reactors for anything. Lamp is difficult but could be huge if it works. It would give us better vision then them in the bad lighting conditions which they create and open the path to proper enchantments.
Mts doesn't seem to have a viable description. It ought to say what it actually does. I am not even sure if it removes the references to religion.
Plt seems difficult to work. It is a new control scheme along with new applications and the turret is not necessarily well designed for the required equipment, which involves propulsion circuits on something that was previously... How DID it rotate before? I mean, it is a 360 degree turret, right? So it is a ball? so how does the gunner touch anything othetr than the ball? And if they don't, how can they rotate the ball without touching anything else? Anyways, it is a significant rework to get from a revision. Certainly plausible, but it is a risk. And the effect is that it is aiming faster, which helps, definitely, but it is still a low rate-of-fire gun shooting at jet-planes. I can see it being part of the solution, but it shouldn't turn around the air-war...
Quote
3 - Powered Lightning Turrets (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536433#msg7536433): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Kadzar
0 - Mageglass Targetting Suite (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536433#msg7536433):
0 - L.A.M.P. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536486#msg7536486):
0 - C.A.B.L.E. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536486#msg7536486):
1 - honest strike (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536543#msg7536543): RAM
0 - (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.):
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 15, 2017, 04:17:02 pm
Really, MTS is a revision of TrueStrike. Without TrueStrike, it wouldn't be possible.
MTS is basically just sacrificing bits of TrueStrike to decrease the amount of actions needed to make it useful. That and it does lead us on the path to more display tech, which is always cool. To use a weird analogy, it's like throwing weights off a hot air balloon while increasing the heat instead of just increasing the heat. Kind of.
But I'll try to edit clarify what it actually does in its description later today.
The Lightning's turret currently works via the gunner manually rotating the turret.
I think using friction? Pushing against something?
Naturally this is extremely slow and the combat report made its significance obvious. The Lightning can't fight back against faster craft at all because it can't track fast enough to even shoot at them in the first place.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 15, 2017, 05:11:31 pm
Quote
Revision 1:
3 - Powered Lightning Turrets (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536433#msg7536433): Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Kadzar
0 - Mageglass Targetting Suite (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536433#msg7536433):
Revision 2:
0 - L.A.M.P. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536486#msg7536486):
0 - C.A.B.L.E. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536486#msg7536486):
3 - honest strike (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536543#msg7536543): RAM, helmacon, FallacyofUrist
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 15, 2017, 05:38:02 pm
And I believe RAM's change to the votebox was intentional. Since it seems that the revisions are going to be done separately.
You should vote for the targeting suite, fallacy.
- Helps as targeting for Oracle. (TrueStrike/Lucky Strike wouldn't be that useful for Oracle, considering how poorly it goes for Moskurg with their rail gun.)
- Can be easily integrated with crystal optics (both are crystal glass variants, crystal isn't very good with integration)
- Can be made better with more revisions (original TrueStrike vision [auto-aim] because both just use the targetting part, etc. etc..)
Post by: helmacon on August 15, 2017, 05:40:37 pm
Quote
Also more, but writing these lists on mobile is hell.I feel your pain.
Post by: RAM on August 15, 2017, 07:57:55 pm
Post by: helmacon on August 15, 2017, 08:37:57 pm
Post by: RAM on August 15, 2017, 09:34:55 pm
Post by: helmacon on August 15, 2017, 09:40:01 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 15, 2017, 09:46:50 pm
A single Lightning can take many hits from both ballistae and lightning bolts. Yet it can destroy a Moskurg airship in merely two shots (and this is still very quick when factoring in breech-loading) and a fighter in one shot. Yes, it may not be as effectiveness due to its slower rate of fire making it harder to dogfight (IF ONLY WE HAD THE CAF), but it should be much better than the Moskurger equivalent.
Unfortunately, the turret is practically useless against fighters. Not because of its rate of fire, but because of tracking. The turret rotates/aims slower than a Moskurger fighter flies. We can't actually aim our guns at their fighters, which means that we will lose engagements. Powered turrets will mean we won't auto-lose to Moskurger fighters. We may not have 100% effectiveness due to rate of fire (we should still get the CAF soon!), but any effectiveness is better than 0%.
And powered turrets will be necessary for any weapon that needs to be pointed at the enemy. Which is every relatively effective weapon we have right now.
Also power armor.
The MKPD can totally be used for power armor. And tons of other cool things. But let's not get too ahead of ourselves.
And in other news, RAM mentioning webs gave me an idea.
Future Design: Silkcrystal
Here we are, looking back at decades of complaining about the relative brittleness of crystal, when we had the answer standing in front of us the whole time.
Some apprentices
Webs is a conjuration spell. One of the original three from the spell book, in fact. Since we acquired that spell book, we've made factories dedicated solely to conjuring crystal, a material that didn't even exist in the book. It may have been impossible then to make this spider silk on an industrial scale in the right form, but with our society and industry based on conjuration, it should almost be a trivial task.
But instead of creating entirely new production lines for this, we can simply use it to upgrade our crystal. Use our experience with integrating and revising different types of crystals along with the conjuration knowledge garnered thus far to do so. Merge the best properties of this spider silk and crystal and apply the new crystal to every fabricator in the kingdom.
Silkcrystal should, obviously, no longer be brittle. In fact, it should be magnitudes better than Crystal if we succeed. Imagine crystal no longer shattering to lightning bolts. Imagine being able to endure infinite ballistae bolts. Imagine being able to treat their new railgun as if it were nothing but a fancy ballista. That is what Silkcrystal may be able to do.
Furthermore, Silkcrystal should also allow us to exert much more control over the flexibility of the crystal. Though while it should be very easy if Silkcrystal succeeds, we'll leave that to its own revision or part of a design.
TL;DR: Merge spider silk (From our Webs spell) with Crystal, make SUPERCRYSTAL.
Post by: RAM on August 15, 2017, 11:02:00 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 16, 2017, 08:58:25 am
We are mages. We will make it work. It's flexible when we want it to be and rigid when we want it to be.
Post by: evictedSaint on August 16, 2017, 10:20:39 am
The Lightning Turret is overhauled.
Rather than an entire sphere, the turret is now a half-sphere that rotates horizontally. The HAC-20(mm) rotates vertically 45° up and 5° down through a shielded vertical slit in the blister.
Though we have never truly isolated the ability to levitate and move objects ("Autokinesis", as referred to by our Mathemagicians) from our conjuration magic, the turret still manages to make do through a system we like to call "Pneumatics". A geared track runs around the edge of the blister and vertically along the slit, which is hooked up to a gear powered by a smaller version of the KPD Mk.2 - by generating exhaust perpendicular to the gear, we can exert enough torque to force it to rotate.
The system is a bit clunky, but works without issue. The exhaust is vented outside of the cabin and makes a pleasant "whirrrr" noise when fired. The turret is controlled by an orb in the gunners chair similar to the joystick orb in the pilots cockpit and can rotate a bit faster than a gunner could do by hand, and with more precision.
As an added bonus, we introduce a socket on the gun where the TrueStrike module could be socketed, if we had enough to go around. Cheap.
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 16, 2017, 12:41:48 pm
The Lightning Turret is further overhauled to have a larger range of motion vertically using a second inset variant of the powered turret. Both the vertical and horizontal Pheumatics can be activated and controlled at the same time, allowing the system to rapidly aim in any direction on the sphere. The blister is moved out further from the craft to allow a 50° firing angle in any direction.
Circuit Stamping
Creating complex scrolls is currently a difficult hand process of metallurgy, but we can add crystals to that! A sheet of "scroll" metal is laid out flat and then a "stamp" made out of sharp and durable crystal is pressed into it with force from a screw-press system. While each stamp takes some time to make in the precise mathemagical shapes needed, once it is created the metal stamp-press can be operated quickly to churn out thousands of scrolls before needing repair or replacement. This should reduce the labor and technical difficulty of complex scroll production, like the Honest Strike, reducing over all cost.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 16, 2017, 12:50:27 pm
Now that we have that... while I do like Honest Strike, I think there are better priorities for the moment.
Rocketshells: By using a variant of our KPD attached to the back of our HA1(and if we have extra time, AS-HAC-1) shells, we can take advantage of the fact that aethergems offer continuous power to add continuous thrust to a fired shell, boosting range and velocity.
AS-SC-L: We've created a variant of our Lightning craft. This variant replaces the 20mm gun turret with a Lumos turret. Basically, when the trigger is pulled, it fires a Blind-Flare at the target. Due to the magical cheapness of the Blind-Flare and our vast experience with circuits and fireball variants, this can be done fairly easily and rapidly. This may be more of a design than a revision, however, which is why it doesn't have my vote for the moment. If this worked, it would be devastating against personnel, but not against (relatively) sealed enemy craft.
Quote
Revision 2:
1 - Rocketshells: FallacyofUrist
0 - AS-SC-L(Special Cannon-Lumos):
0 - L.A.M.P. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536486#msg7536486):
0 - C.A.B.L.E. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536486#msg7536486):
2 - honest strike (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536543#msg7536543): RAM, helmacon
1 - Circuit Stamping: VoidSlayer
1 - Expanded Firing Angles: VoidSlayer
Also we should name our orbital bombardment craft the Firestorm.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 16, 2017, 01:05:18 pm
Revision: Mageglass Targeting Suite
Note: "Mageglass" = "Reactive Crystal Glass" = That crystal glass we use to make Magegems.
The idea here is simple - take out a component from TrueStrike and make it its own device as to avoid the typical Moskurger kludges holding us back with TrueStrike.
Spoiler: Fluff (click to show/hide)
The Mageglass Targetting Suite should be applied to the Lightning Turret first, and Combat Armor visors second.
TL;DR: Take TrueStrike, rip out "divination", and wire it to Mageglass (the special-ish Crystal Glass we use to make Magegems) in order to highlight targets. Should be much cheaper since we don't have to actually bless the projectiles, which one would assume to be the hard part. (After all, you have to "program" each projectile with the destination, have it actually be "guided" there, continue updating on target, etc. etc.).
I don't suppose someone could put this in the votebox for me?
And this allows for much better targetting, improves skirmishes, and is almost a requirement for any orbital strike craft.
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 16, 2017, 01:06:37 pm
Effectively infinite range, homing explosive shells that maintain maximum muzzle velocity, or higher, for the entire trip.
AS-SC-L would not be useful because we only have a 5 degree downward angle. We can not hit the ground.
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 16, 2017, 01:08:23 pm
Quote
Revision 2:
1 - Rocketshells: FallacyofUrist
0 - AS-SC-L(Special Cannon-Lumos):
0 - L.A.M.P. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536486#msg7536486):
0 - C.A.B.L.E. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536486#msg7536486):
2 - honest strike (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536543#msg7536543): RAM, helmacon
1 - Circuit Stamping (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7537892#msg7537892): VoidSlayer
1 - Expanded Firing Angles (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7537892#msg7537892): VoidSlayer
1 - Mageglass Targeting Suite (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7537913#msg7537913): Chiefwaffles
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 16, 2017, 01:13:28 pm
AS-SC-L would not be useful because we only have a 5 degree downward angle. We can not hit the ground.It's intended to blind flying Moskurgians from carpet riders to skiff riders.
Some sort of super shell might be nice, but we're working on orbital bombardment right now, and this is the best you're getting.
Unless you want explosive shroud.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 16, 2017, 01:23:46 pm
Like the MTS.
Post by: helmacon on August 16, 2017, 01:24:31 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 16, 2017, 01:40:43 pm
If we don't make true strike cheaper at some point we have effectively made no design this turn.
I was hoping that the scroll stamp-press would do that, make the stupidly complex enemy scrolls mass produced to reduce cost. Should I put that explicitly in there?
Post by: helmacon on August 16, 2017, 01:43:13 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 16, 2017, 02:57:23 pm
We can either waste just a design or a design and a revision.
Post by: RAM on August 16, 2017, 03:33:15 pm
Ugh I hate to say this, but we should probably just fix the transmission on the protector, it keeps getting mentioned...
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 16, 2017, 04:24:07 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 16, 2017, 04:25:16 pm
We have TrueStrike. A component of it "divines" the location of the enemy.
We have Mageglass. The Crystal Glass used to make Magegems. We know it lights up based on magic presence. (Though this is the first time in giving it that name.)
So we just combine these two things. It probably won't be easy but it's possible for a revision.
So I'd leave it up to Evicted whether or not it highlights just where enemies are or where they will be. Since it all depends on how the divination component works by itself.
Though I expect it to just highlight where enemies are since it is just a revision and I don't want to spend extra effort on making it do that.
But really the MTS is to serve as a basis for a targeting system. I'm willing to radically change it as long as we get something that makes targeting less completely reliant on human vision. Since space weapons need targeting to work at all and flares aren't 100% effective.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 16, 2017, 04:31:06 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 16, 2017, 04:58:16 pm
We take fabricators from the Crystalworks Mk. 2 and program the appropriate caliber munitions into them before attaching them to our weapons and their circuitry.
After firing a bullet, the circuitry will activate the fabricator, conjuring another crystal bullet/shell directly into the firing chamber.
If possible, slightly increase density of crystal to make up for the hopefully-negligible loss in weight.
It should be easy to fit onto all our weapons given the same CAF, just with a different programmed caliber, works for every gun. This shouldn't completely replace the loading mechanism to allow for special ammunition (blastshells, Equalizer, etc.) to be loaded when needed.
TL;DR: Take Crystalworks fabricators, put on guns to notably increase RoF.
This will improve the effectiveness of the Lightning turret and make the R1 much more useful.
Though I still think we should do some targeting revision instead, this is my second choice.
Post by: RAM on August 16, 2017, 06:01:39 pm
The Suck
This is a tweak of the antimagic charm. Currently, antimagic charms pull magic into themselves, this would switch them to pulling themselves into magic. Given that, as our bombs demonstrated, our antimagic charms do not function in antimagic, they should have no attraction to our hardened circuits, leaving the only thing that they would be drawn to as foreign devilry. Thus, once released, The Suck would be pulled towards Kegger flying machines. Upon impact, they would likely detonate as they would be operating on the old explosive system. Otherwise, The Suck would explode upon attempts at removal, or when struck by weapons-fire, or upon hitting the ground after sucking their engines dry.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 16, 2017, 06:29:59 pm
*The Suck locates and hits them*
I actually do like the idea, but there's room for improvement.
Post by: evictedSaint on August 17, 2017, 10:24:16 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 17, 2017, 02:53:33 pm
Quote
Revision 2:
1 - Rocketshells: FallacyofUrist
0 - AS-SC-L(Special Cannon-Lumos):
0 - L.A.M.P. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536486#msg7536486):
0 - C.A.B.L.E. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536486#msg7536486):
2 - honest strike (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536543#msg7536543): RAM, helmacon
1 - Circuit Stamping (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7537892#msg7537892): VoidSlayer
1 - Expanded Firing Angles (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7537892#msg7537892): VoidSlayer
1 - Mageglass Targeting Suite (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7537913#msg7537913): Chiefwaffles
It looks like it's going to be one of those days.
You could always roll for it with proportionate chance(roll 1d6, 1-2 = honest strike, 3 = Circuit Stamping, 4 = Expanded Firing Angles, 5 = Mageglass Targeting Suite, 6 = Rocketshells), basically, the more votes something has, the more chance it has at passing.
Post by: Draignean on August 17, 2017, 02:57:43 pm
Quote
Revision 2:
1 - Rocketshells: FallacyofUrist
0 - AS-SC-L(Special Cannon-Lumos):
0 - L.A.M.P. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536486#msg7536486):
0 - C.A.B.L.E. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536486#msg7536486):
3 - honest strike (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7536543#msg7536543): RAM, helmacon, Draignean
1 - Circuit Stamping (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7537892#msg7537892): VoidSlayer
1 - Expanded Firing Angles (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7537892#msg7537892): VoidSlayer
1 - Mageglass Targeting Suite (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7537913#msg7537913): Chiefwaffles
There. Now can I get an Amen?
Post by: evictedSaint on August 17, 2017, 05:37:34 pm
It takes some doing, but we manage to hack out bits of Moskurgs spell weavings and replace it with our own. Despite being an intelligable tangle of magical threads, we note with some irritation that ironing them out to make sense actually increases the size of the spell. Still, we manage to replace the need for a golden scroll with two copper ones, which appreciably reduces the cost. We can afford to equip our elite troops with the HonestStrike modules now. Very Expensive.
Where do we deploy Myark?
What do we spend the Expense Credit on?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 18, 2017, 08:11:32 am
Wait, why are we using copper when we could be using nickel which is a much better substitute as previously proven? Oh well. Next revision: One nickel scroll instead of two copper ones.
~~~
Quote
Myark:Did we get a new expense credit or something?
1 - Tundra: FallacyofUrist
Expense Credit:
1 - Do not spend: FallacyofUrist
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 18, 2017, 01:11:44 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 18, 2017, 08:05:11 pm
Quote
Myark:
2 - Tundra: FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles
Expense Credit:
2 - Do not spend: FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles
Post by: andrea on August 19, 2017, 02:26:22 am
Quote
Myark:
3 - Tundra: FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles, Andrea
Expense Credit:
3 - Do not spend: FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles, Andrea
Lets try to survive
Post by: Andres on August 20, 2017, 11:01:05 pm
Quote
Myark:
4 - Tundra: FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Andres
Expense Credit:
4 - Do not spend: FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Light forger on August 20, 2017, 11:02:44 pm
Quote
Myark:
5 - Tundra: FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Andres, Lightforger
Expense Credit:
5 - Do not spend: FallacyofUrist, Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Andres, Lightforger
Post by: evictedSaint on August 20, 2017, 11:50:33 pm
Arstotzka makes progress reverse-engineering Moskurg's Lucky Strike into their own variant, named "HonestStrike". It's modular, and can be slotted in and out of weapons to improve the long-range accuracy. It's Very Expensive, and requires the user to loudly praise Allah with each shot, but it makes the R1 rifle accurate out to Extreme Range for their Mage Hunters; an improvement over the Medium-Range accuracy that the gun had previously. They had to spend one revision making it cheaper, but the other revision was spent improving their turrets. The Lightning now uses a modified version of their Blastballs spell to pneumatically power the rotation of the clear-crystal turret using a spherical control like in the cockpit. This allows them to turn the turret smoothly, quickly, and allow them to track targets more easily. The guns are all still limited by their bolt-action reloading sequence, but it's a step towards modernization. They chose not to spend their Expense Credit.
Moskurg has spent their design getting their Adamantium closer to the same versatility that Arstotzka enjoys from their crystal. Named "Star Metal", they've devised a way to give the metal ferrous capabilities and glass-like transparency. They were unable to get control over the seven other traits they wanted, and the Star Metal is noticeably more brittle than standard Adamantium. For their revision they attempted to give their Thundergun better ammunition, but didn't get a working version. For their second revision they tried again, and did better. Their induction cannons now use a pointed shell that is a mix between an artillery shell and a modern bomb. It uses a circular hoop on the tail to keep it straight and the shell uses a blast-cap made out of a pressure switch and a Wand of Thunderbolts; it must be latched into place since Moskurg metal-priests can't make screw threads with a tight enough tolerance. They chose not to spend their Espionage Credit.
The Taiga sees some of the most pitched fighting thus far in the war, so we will change things up and start with the Mountains this report.
Moskurg relies heavily on their air power to shell distant strongholds and artillery nests to clear the way for their ground troops, since they're becoming increasingly rubbish against Arstotzka in a straight melee. This is exacerbated by Arstotzka's new powered turrets, which make fly-by assaults on Skyhawks more common. The ability for the guns to rotate smoothly and track targets evenly makes it easy to hit the large and mostly-immobile floating artillery platforms and knock them out of the sky. Moskurgs Skyskiffs do their best, but they can't go as fast as a Lightning at max speed, and their ability to fight is limited solely to short range due to the limited range of the Wands of Thunderbolt and the fact that they have no other offensive air-to-air weapon. They can't catch Lightning's either, since the pilots can't see before they even reach max speed. Then, with the the ability for the Lightning to track targets more easily, they start finding their own fighters getting shot down. For the very first time, Arstotzka is on par in the air.
That being said, Arstotzka still struggles to project their air power when it comes to supporting their troops on the ground. The inefficient previous generation fighter is the only one that can drop bombs, and it's easy prey for Skyskiffs. However, all of Moskurgs air forces can hit ground troops, whether it's a Skyskiff dropping grenades on troops walking up and down the cliffs or Skyhawks shelling enemy positions from far away; not that it's needed for that. While the air-borne artillery platform is handy, the invention of shaped ammo for the Thundergun makes their ground-based artillery accurate enough to thoroughly out-range Arstotzka. Much like the air, the artillery game has begun to favor the other side. The explosive ammo is less useful in the rocky terrain where there's plenty of cover, but it still a deadly tool.
Perhaps the biggest, newest factor in the Mountains is Arstotzka's HonestStrike modules. Snapped into the R1 rifles that the elite Mage Hunter troops use, it makes trudging up any slope a deadly affair for Moskurg troopers. Ambushes are common, and the accurate, deadly, and sneaky weapon rules the mountain peaks. The only downside is that the ambushers always prelude their attacks by loudly declaring their love for Allah, which kind of gives away the surprise of the attack to some extent. With the loss of total air superiority and Arstotzkas new "Super Accurate Guns For Shooting Long Distances That You Can Hold" (also referred referred to as "Sniper Rifles" by some of the users) Arstotzka manages to keep the southerners from stomping back up the mountain side. By using the natural high ground from the mountains, they press into the desert.
Arstotzka gains a foothold in the Desert.
Artillery makes all the difference in the Plains to the east.
As it has for every year since Moskurg brought ballistas to battle, artillery decides who advances in the plains. The Thundergun is now accurate enough to shell enemy trenches, although only out to Beyond Line of Sight. It can hit out to BLOS+1, but accuracy drops off at that range and without the exploding shells it would barely be a factor beyond determining the distance between trench lines. Still, that doesn't stop Arstotzka Anti-Mages from crawling across the lines in suits made of grass and dirt to use their new, more accurate guns. They can reliably hit at only Extreme Range, and the Mage Hunters go without armor to reduce their noise and profile, but it is enough to keep Moskurg soldiers from lifting their heads over the edge of the trenches. At least for Moskurg the trenches are nice and dry; for an Arstotzkan soldier crouched in the trenches criss-crossing the land ahead of their Towers of Frost, "dry" is a foreign concept. It rains non-stop, and during the winter it snows.
When it comes time to move across no-mans land, Moskurg must stockpile ammo for a few weeks before hand. Then, they shell non-stop for days preceding the assault, and finally use close air support to cover their men as they charge across the blasted landscape. Arstotzka attempts similar tactics, but their inferior bombers and artillery range means they must rely almost entirely on the superiority of their troops to win the engagement. It's not enough; especially considering Moskurg rules the coast and can raid their backfield with impunity. Trains frequently don't arrive with much-needed ammo, troops, and weapons. The fact that Arstotzka can afford to liberally reinforce their lines with HAC-1's and R1 rifles is their greatest asset in this theatre, but they can't exactly use that to advance and when they're getting attacked both from the front and back their single-fire guns can't keep the enemy away. The Protector, which has struggled for years with fragile wheels, primitive transmissions, and obsolete weapons, can't even be used to protect troops part-way across the field like it had before. Thunderguns rip them to shreds with artillery barrages, and the exploding shells shatter more fragile components and chip away at the thicker parts. By the end of the year Arstotzka's lines are overrun and Moskurg presses up another section of the Plains.
Moskurg gains another section of the Plains.
The Taiga, much like the Jungle down south, grows into a minefield of splintered and wrecked trees.
Moskurg struggles getting enough ammo up north to keep their Thunderguns supplied, but when the things fire it's definitely worth it. Tornadoes carve swaths through the trees and frozen swamps, sending whole tree branches through troop lines and toppling wooden forts. Arstotzka knows the land better and can frequently surprise Moskurg by sneaking their artillery closer under tree cover or by lying in wait beneath the snow until the southerners pass over. This is a real problem, and it's made more difficult by the fact that the dense tree cover makes their close air support less effective; it's still by far more effective than Arstotzkas though, especially thanks to their floating artillery platforms (which are periodically shot down). Melee's still go firmly in Arstotzka's favor, but the tree cover makes their HonestStrike-boosted R1's less effective at sniping. Sniping missions involve their Mage Hunters hiding up in the trees in full-white clothes and hitting Moskurg soldiers when they think they're safe.
Surprisingly, the Phoenix sees itself being used here, and only here. When they can manage to keep the giant ships alive, Moskurg will pass over tree lines and set the forest alight. It's useful for smoking out hidden Arstotzkans and clearing ground for open battles, but the giant tankers of Alnnar are juicy targets for Lightnings.
Myark and al-Mutriqa, age-old enemies with gray beards and wrinkled faces, meet once again on the battlefield in the frozen north.
It's close, but ultimately Moskurg manages to gain another section of ground. Troops mix Alnnar into their drinks in an attempt to keep themselves warmer despite their temperature-controlled Adamantium and mutter darkly about the white devils who hide in trees.
Moskurg gains another section of Taiga. Myark has been wounded and will be unable to fight next year.
In the frozen northern seas, battles are fought and won in the air.
The fighting was even last year, and Arstotzka's powered turrets make the biggest difference in the air. Thus they are able to shoot down airships faster than Moskurg can sink their boats, and manage to barely regain a section of coastline.
Arstotzka regains a section of shoreline in the Northern Seas
Research Credit!!!
The fighting in the north is often isolated, regulated to sudden, viscous stabfests and one-sided gunfights, when the forest isn't being obliterated by fire or artillery barrages. As such, the fight between Myark and al-Mutriqa has few existing survivors and reports of the encounter are vague and conflicting. al-Mutriqa refuses to speak of the conflict out of respect for his enemy, and Myark is too badly wounded to give a coherent report. Whichever side gives a more epic report of the event (as the need for moral is more important than the need for an honest retelling of events) will gain a Research Credit, where two dice will be rolled for each trait of their next Design Phase and the higher of the two will be taken.
It is 948, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 948 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Behavior Rules. Please Read.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: RAM on August 21, 2017, 12:35:14 am
RAM-MAP-948 "Pashmad" Mobile Artillery PositionI don't realy want more tanks, but we gotta engage them and that means, well, engaging them. I wanna do weightite summoners, but meh, nobody seems to want heavy ammunition...
The protector demonstrated clearly that a slow vehicle is as bad as no vehicle. We need to close range with the enemy and they are too mobile for half-measures to work. We need something aggressive, fast, and dangerous. Fortunately, our crystals are light, with some ingenuity, we can maintain significant armour while massively improving performance.
The first and most obvious issue is weight. Things keep breaking. We revise the armour to contain complex structures. It ends up being formed of innumerable little pyramids, inspired by hawk eggs, that lose strength per volume, but are much stronger for the same weight, and hopefully regeneration rate. While we actually reduce the thickness, and thus leave the vehicle potentially vulnerable to sustained artillery, the armour should still be capable of deflecting an initial hit from ballista and its speed should make for a very difficult target. There have also been hints that the new structured armour is much better at insulating against heat and shocks.
Then there is the force on the wheels, to reduce this we further take weight off of it. We start with a protector and add a rear-mounted reactor with additional armour casing. Thick axles with steel cores to transmit impacts rather than risk severing. We power the axles using lightning propulsion around the axle and wheel. These two axle assemblages are separated from the rest of the vehicle and implement a suspension system using crystals. The axles are guided by heavy crystal beams that pass through grooves on the axle to prevent nonvertical mobility and transmit magical energy via a "contact circuit, that triggers when these beams are in contact with the grooves. The craft is then suspended over the axle by a thick layer of innumerable fine crystal spikes. These spikes crush as the wheels encounter shocks, allowing them to rise gradually instead of lifting the whole vehicle, and then the very fine crystals all regenerate simultaneously, pushing the wheels back to their original position. If the crystals break too much then the vehicle can be slowed or they can just continue with the hopes of nothing catastrophic happening.
Finally the wheels are made wider and sturdier to handle uneven terrain and a lead keel is added to improve stability. The armament is replaced by a single forward-mounted powered turret from the lightning design. The central gun allows the wheels to be moved further towards the edges, to further enhance mobility, and a central pair of raised unpowered wheels are added to inhibit getting stuck. Steering is performed by firing brief jets of force from the bottom of the front of the craft, to make the front jump slightly to one side or the other. Honest Strike comes standard.
Quote
0 RAM-MAP-948 "Pashmad" Mobile Artillery Position (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7541949#msg7541949):
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Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 21, 2017, 12:41:53 am
Quote from: evictedSaint (Discord)
Their tornadoes are extra effective there, they out-range you with artillery, and though you are slightly better at dogfighting, they have decent CAS and flying artillery platforms. You can beat them man-to-man, but they're not fighting you man-to-man if they can help it.
I think it's clear that we have to regain the artillery advantage. Honestly, I think I made a huge mistake to not push this sooner. Therefore, I propose two things:
Design: AS-SGO-1 "Seeker"
The Seeker is, in a way, a severely upgraded Blastshell.
Spoiler: Fluff (click to show/hide)
KPD4 - The Seeker uses constant KPD4 propulsion to move itself, though primary-forwards propulsion uses a nozzle to increase effectiveness. KPD4 is massively scaled down to decrease mass and power costs, but should hopefully be able to give speeds better than a Lightning thanks to the fact that it's propelling a shell, not a 2-man gunship.
Reactor Mk.2 - Supercharged (the Seeker is one-use after all) and with safeties removed, placed at the front without armor. The Reactor is of course downscaled to fit the missile too. Acts as warhead, and should hopefully provide great detonation based on past observations of non-supercharged Reactor detonations.
TrustStrike - Take HonestStrike, and rip out everything but the part that divines targeting information. Hook it up to the KPD4 to allow the missile to move itself to aim at targets instead of "generally more lucky". Should be easier+cheaper since we're just providing targeting information for one object, instead of targeting info and individual guidance for every individual projectile fired from a weapon. Should allow for a robust/agile guided missile, hopefully.
Application - Should come with a very simplistic mount vaguely like the AS-HAC-1 mount for ground-based firing. Should fit 1-3 on Blastshell mounts of F44 Avengers, and low priority fit single one onto the Lightning.
TL;DR - Slap a Reactor+KPD4 on a shell, and make a guidance system devised from HonestStrike, and bam, you got a guided missile.
Revision: Aethercut Crystal
We already know how to make crystal anti-magic charms from the Mk. 2 Reactor design.
So we make crystal with very minor anti-magic elements, and we place this crystal on the HA1 shells. While the anti-magic shouldn't be strong enough to affect the casting of magic and whatnot, it should notably decrease the effectiveness of wind magic around the shell, allowing it to move through the air unaffected by Moskurger anti-shell spells.
If the Crystal doesn't compromise the integrity of our designs, we also wish to make the Lightning (or at least parts of the Lightning) out of Aethercut crystal to allow for resistance against Moskurger wind magic to allow for increased organization in the air. Perhaps also implement it in Combat Armor too if integrity isn't compromised and flipping a switch in the Crystalworks isn't too hard, to maaaaaaybe decrease the direct effectiveness of tornadoes against our soldiers?
TL;DR: Put very minor anti-magic crystal bits (which should be makeable thanks to Mk.2 Reactor design) on our HA1 shells to decrease effectiveness of Moskurger wind magic that debuffs artillery range. If it doesn't hurt integrity, do the same with the Lightning (and maybe Combat Armor) to decrease general effectiveness of wind magic on them.
I think the Seeker is a good idea. Develop a guidance module and tracking shells which should help immensely against anti-shell magic. I'll talk about the Aethercut revision once we actually get to revisions.
Quote
DESIGNS
0 - RAM-MAP-948 "Pashmad" Mobile Artillery Position (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7541949#msg7541949):
1 - AS-SGO-1 "Seeker" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7541954#msg7541954): Chiefwaffles
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And @RAM: Personally I think we should revise in the Crystal Ammunition Fabricator this turn (AUTOMATIC WEAAAPONRRRYYYYY), then revise in Weightite next turn (or this turn too if there are no other revisions). Crystal bullets/whatnot shouldn't really have a loss in effectiveness because they're only a bit lighter than steel, then we can increase their effectiveness beyond steel with the Weightite revision.
I like the Pashmad design, but wouldn't it be slower than the Moskurg artillery aircraft (just by the nature of ground vs air) so how would it make up for "Pashmad moves forward, Airship moves back while continuing firing"?
Though if we don't do something like the Pashmad, we should definitely heavily consider fixing the Protector. It'd make things like the Pashmad easier and would make the Protector non-useless.
Post by: RAM on August 21, 2017, 02:18:56 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 21, 2017, 02:53:10 am
This design is based off of a discussion Andres and I had. The idea is that it massively helps troop deployment as well as helping apply our infantry advantage against their aerial artillery (via boarding). That and it makes our infantry more resistant to artillery as our troops can just go over No Man's Land and deploy in Moskurger territory, even if they can shell our stationary stuff.
ASAF-QAT48 "Valkyrie"
Quick Action Transport
The Valkyrie is a straightforward design. A quick aerial transport vehicle to protect and move our troops for both land deployment and boarding action as well as transporting heavy cargo where the Restless network can't take it.
Spoiler: Fluff (click to show/hide)
Cabin/Cockpit - A cabin that can hold at least 10 geared-up passengers. Aim for more as long as it doesn't compromise speed too much. Cabin should have considerations to allow for reliable security of passengers when cabin door is open during flight. Small crystal glass cockpit connected via hatch to cabin holds single pilot.
Cabin Ramp Door - A simple and large door that forms the rear wall of the cabin when closed, and opens via simple pneumatics to form a ramp to the ground. Think like the Chinook helicopter.
Hook - A hook (that can be opened/closed/whatevered from the cockpit) on the bottom to hold external heavy cargo (like maybe even HA1s/vehicles!); speed with external cargo isn't a design consideration. This is purely additional and is thus very low priority, though it should be very easy to implement regardless of priority.
Power & Propulsion - A KPD4 upscaled enough to use all of the power from the Reactor bar the occasional simple pneumatic door activation. Should be stronger compared to the Lightning KPD4 that also has to power turret and whatnot.
Speed Target - Should at least be notably faster than a Moskurger airship, with an optimistic goal of matching the Lightning in speed.
TL;DR - A quick 10 person (at least) dropship that can optionally carry external cargo, designed for quickly deploying our troops across the theatre and for boarding action on Moskurger airships. Think like the Pelican from Halo.
I still like the Seeker and would still be willing to vote for it, but I'm completely switching my vote to the Valkyrie for now since I do prefer it.
Quote
DESIGNS
0 - RAM-MAP-948 "Pashmad" Mobile Artillery Position (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7541949#msg7541949):
0 - AS-SGO-1 "Seeker" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7541954#msg7541954):
1 - ASAF-QAT48 "Valkyrie" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7542025#msg7542025): Chiefwaffles
ORDERS
0 - Acknowledge that we are comfortable with multiple votes from the same person towards a single design or revision action:
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EDIT: I also think we should heavily consider using the Expense Credit on the Lightning (or the Reactor if that cheapens the Lightning too). The Lightning has shown to be very effective and even at Expensive it's brought the air war to parity. If we push our advantage we can severely hurt their artillery advantage as well.
Post by: Andres on August 21, 2017, 03:33:51 am
A quick, agile, aerial transport vehicle to protect and move our troops for both land deployment and boarding action as well as transporting heavy cargo where the Restless network can't take it.Agility should not be a focus of the design. It's not a dogfighter. It should have enough agility to do the job but no more. Any extra "design space" should go towards upping the armour, upping the speed, or both.
Hook - A hook (that can be opened/closed/whatevered from the cockpit) on the bottom to hold external heavy cargo (like maybe even HA1s/vehicles!); speed with external cargo isn't a design consideration.Unnecessarily complex and sub-optimally effective. Make it like this thing (https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--TQcxGaJE--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/190qwwpvi19gtjpg.jpg) except fully closed.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 21, 2017, 03:38:37 am
Agility should not be a focus of the design. It's not a dogfighter. It should have enough agility to do the job but no more. Any extra "design space" should go towards upping the armour, upping the speed, or both.It's pretty clear that agility is not a focus as the actual design specifications don't really mention it. That and the Valkyrie should be fairly agile - it's just a natural consequence of the KPD4. But I'll remove it since in the quoted example it doesn't really matter if it's gone.
The idea is so things can be more easily and quickly dropped, and potentially in combat situations.Hook - A hook (that can be opened/closed/whatevered from the cockpit) on the bottom to hold external heavy cargo (like maybe even HA1s/vehicles!); speed with external cargo isn't a design consideration.Unnecessarily complex and sub-optimally effective. Make it like this thing (https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--TQcxGaJE--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/190qwwpvi19gtjpg.jpg) except fully closed.
It shouldn't take any extra effort because we already did mechanically similar things - the Blastshell mounts in the F44 Avenger - with ease. This should be no different.
Post by: Andres on August 21, 2017, 04:00:54 am
Quote
DESIGNS
0 - RAM-MAP-948 "Pashmad" Mobile Artillery Position (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7541949#msg7541949):
0 - AS-SGO-1 "Seeker" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7541954#msg7541954):
2 - ASAF-QAT48 "Valkyrie" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7542025#msg7542025): Chiefwaffles, Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 21, 2017, 08:30:02 am
Trains frequently don't arrive with much-needed ammo, troops, and weapons.We need to upgrade our trains!
But we can do that in one of our two revisions.
EDIT: I also think we should heavily consider using the Expense Credit on the Lightning (or the Reactor if that cheapens the Lightning too). The Lightning has shown to be very effective and even at Expensive it's brought the air war to parity. If we push our advantage we can severely hurt their artillery advantage as well.... as long as you acknowledge that this was my idea in the first place.
~~~
Quote
DESIGNS
0 - RAM-MAP-948 "Pashmad" Mobile Artillery Position (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7541949#msg7541949):
0 - AS-SGO-1 "Seeker" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7541954#msg7541954):
3 - ASAF-QAT48 "Valkyrie" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7542025#msg7542025): Chiefwaffles, Andres, FallacyofUrist
ORDERS
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0 - Denounce multiple votes from the same person on the same design or revision action and request that the G.M. discount such votes:
I do like the Valkyrie design. For our revisions, I think we should fix our artillery advantage and upgrade our trains.
~~~
Future Revision: Relentless Engine:
Our Restless is a steam train that relies on power actively supplied by apprentices.
This is madness.
We use our extensive experience with explosions to replace the steam engine powered by apprentices with an IDE powered by Aethergems, greatly increasing speed and reliability, along with freeing up apprentices to work in the front lines.
Future Revision: Rocketshell:
Our current Blastshells are frequently blown off course by the blasted Moskurgians' Winds of Ruin or whatever it was called. We need more power.
By replacing the Magegem in the Blastshell with an Aethergem, and adding an MKPD or such to the back of the Blastshell, replacing the current thrust addition, we can generate continuous thrust to greatly extend our shells' range.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 21, 2017, 12:28:49 pm
I will probably support that either way as we need some way to out range the enemy and fight against their wind shit, which the design does.
Post by: andrea on August 21, 2017, 12:46:55 pm
Quote
DESIGNS
0 - RAM-MAP-948 "Pashmad" Mobile Artillery Position (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7541949#msg7541949):
2 - AS-SGO-1 "Seeker" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7541954#msg7541954): Andrea, voidslayer
3 - ASAF-QAT48 "Valkyrie" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7542025#msg7542025): Chiefwaffles, Andres, FallacyofUrist
ORDERS
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Voted for the seeker. A guided missile should help greatly against enemy ships if we pull it off, eliminating their biggest advantage.
The valyrie is great as well, I am just not yet sure it will be able to actually board their ships. On the plus side, it should still be the doom of their artillery, if we can drop soldiers quickly anywhere.
I may be easily swayed, I like the idea of greater mobility and it does surely help against one of our problems.
Post by: Draignean on August 21, 2017, 12:50:55 pm
Post by: andrea on August 21, 2017, 12:57:45 pm
Quote
DESIGNS
0 - RAM-MAP-948 "Pashmad" Mobile Artillery Position (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7541949#msg7541949):
3 - AS-SGO-1 "Seeker" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7541954#msg7541954): Andrea, voidslayer, Draignean
3 - ASAF-QAT48 "Valkyrie" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7542025#msg7542025): Chiefwaffles, Andres, FallacyofUrist
ORDERS
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Done.
For revision, I was thinking ( assuming design goes well) that we could do the crystal ammo fabricator ( at least our HAC just got a caliber upgrade, so losing a bit of weight won't hurt much and the high rate of fire will help a lot) and a cheaper honest strike.
Honest strike is already proving very useful, but it is only deployed in the hands of snipers. if it became expensive, we could mount it on all our lightninings, improving performance greatly against fast moving ships and more reliably hitting vulnerable spots in bigger ships.
Post by: Andres on August 21, 2017, 02:49:41 pm
Voted for the seeker. A guided missile should help greatly against enemy ships if we pull it off, eliminating their biggest advantage.The Valkyrie would give us a massive manoeuvrability advantage on every field if we get it cheap enough. Our soldiers will be able to go anywhere very quickly with the Valkyrie. It would be an enormous boon logistically, strategically, and tactically. The Seeker, on the other hand, has a much more niche use and one at least partially - potentially completely - covered by the Valkyrie. It'll also have to develop new tech whereas all of the hard work for the Valkyrie has already been done by the Lightning, so the Valkyrie is easier to design on top of being superior.
The valyrie is great as well, I am just not yet sure it will be able to actually board their ships. On the plus side, it should still be the doom of their artillery, if we can drop soldiers quickly anywhere.
I may be easily swayed, I like the idea of greater mobility and it does surely help against one of our problems.
Please vote for the Valkyrie.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: andrea on August 21, 2017, 02:54:10 pm
Post by: helmacon on August 21, 2017, 03:20:54 pm
I'm all for using the expense credit on the lightning. We ought to revise honest strike again so that we have enough to begin using them in the lighting turrets. (They have a slot for them we don't use). It proved to be devastatingly effective this turn with the rifles.
I would vote for a good tank design if I saw it, but I didn't particularly like RAMs design. (Sorry Ram!)
The valkyrie also seems ok.
I have some really cool stuff in the works for summoning crystal ants. (mobile fortifications. Tunneling. (Deployment bonus) offensive and defensive. Ant bombs. Ect...) but I don't really want to type it up on my phone. Maybe later.
Idk what to do about Myrak. We gave him a sniper rifles, and his wand of true light, but he's still losing.
Btw, what effect did the true light have in the battle? It wasn't mentioned in the report.
Post by: Kadzar on August 21, 2017, 03:58:53 pm
As for possible revisions after this, we could adapt either the Lightning or the Valkyrie into a bomber variant by adding in a bomb bay of some sort. The Valkyrie might be better suited for this with its lifting capabilities, and it's possible we could just drop the bombs with its hook (though we would want to at least use a revision for this, as I don't want to think about the catastrophe trying to do this as an order would be). It may not produce the best possible bomber, but it should be leagues better at the role than the Avenger currently is.
Quote
DESIGNS
0 - RAM-MAP-948 "Pashmad" Mobile Artillery Position (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7541949#msg7541949):
3 - AS-SGO-1 "Seeker" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7541954#msg7541954): Andrea, voidslayer, Draignean
4 - ASAF-QAT48 "Valkyrie" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7542025#msg7542025): Chiefwaffles, Andres, FallacyofUrist, Kadzar
ORDERS
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0 - Denounce multiple votes from the same person on the same design or revision action and request that the G.M. discount such votes:
Post by: andrea on August 21, 2017, 04:32:32 pm
However, I also want to propose a new design, not so much for doing it now, but to keep the idea afloat.
AS-FF-1 Flying fortress leviathan
This is our effort to create the greatest flying object ever made in the history of humankind.
Our kinetic propulsion drive is, thankfully, almost indefinitely scalable due to ignoring things like aerodynamics and focusing entirely on directed thrust. The only limit, then, is our manufacturing ability.
With crystalworks, it turns out to be a rather large limit.
No longer a vehicle, this is best described as a flying fortress, and it is indeed as big as one. Its great bulk provides room for an extremely large aethergem reactor mounted in the middle provinding all the power needed, crew,supplies, spares and some empty rooms for future additions. The external walls are made of extremely thick laytered crystal, while internal walls are considerably thinner to save weight. It carries 2 HA-1 on the top, mounted on armored and powered turrets similar to the ones in the lightning (but upscaled), a couple of [insert our smaller cannon here] on each side, similarly turreted (mounted sideways, rotating around an horizontal axis) and several HAC of the variant used in the Lightning, also turreted. All weapons and turrets are linked to the main generator.
While landed, a ramp opens to disembark soldiers or cargo quickly.
Quote
DESIGNS
0 - RAM-MAP-948 "Pashmad" Mobile Artillery Position (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7541949#msg7541949):
2 - AS-SGO-1 "Seeker" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7541954#msg7541954): voidslayer, Draignean
5 - ASAF-QAT48 "Valkyrie" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7542025#msg7542025): Chiefwaffles, Andres, FallacyofUrist, Kadzar, Andrea
ORDERS
0 - Acknowledge that we are comfortable with multiple votes from the same person towards a single design or revision action:
0 - Denounce multiple votes from the same person on the same design or revision action and request that the G.M. discount such votes:
Post by: RAM on August 21, 2017, 05:40:00 pm
After all of our efforts in pure force, we have finally done it! Pure, distilled, propulsion in its elemental form. There is no exhaust, no directional limits, no acceleration(although we designs gradual-activation circuits to simulate it in order to avoid damage...), just pure motion. This means that we can mount it anywhere, even internally. It can operate according to non-relative directions, such as East, Up, and, with a bit of fiddling, even things such as "home" and maybe even "downwind" and "towards the enemy" if we can magically define it...
While the initial advantages are less than obvious, we plan to implement this on the Lightning which should demonstrate its benefits. Tornadoes are primarily a threat by disorienting and capsizing craft. This new system should allow them to maintain their course regardless of their orientation or position, allowing them to reliably "exit" the whirlwind rather than having to constantly waste propulsion by reorienting and adjusting their direction to account for motion. By actively moving towards their current altitude(or, more accurately, the up/down force of "actively zero") they can perfectly maintain and adjust altitude, allowing for reliable operation in extremely close proximity to the ground. Adding internal mounting to the propulsion further enables the craft to apply more force and be less prone to external damage. It goes without saying that stability is a non-issue when the top can be set to "up" and the bottom can be set to "down" and the propulsion will operate to keep the craft in a specific velocity and orientation regardless of its current velocity or orientation.
With the ease of application of this effect, we hope, time permitting, to implement it on older models of aircraft too, on a smaller scale for the use of bomb-bays.
Don't like it, but it is a thought, so it needs to be heard, because everyone loves thoughts.
Post by: evictedSaint on August 23, 2017, 02:18:06 pm
The Valkyarie is an all-new flying machine designed primarily around two Aether Reactors and a large cabin. It utilizes an enlarged KPD Mk. 4 for lift, drawing almost the entirity of both reactors to lift itself, the pilot, and ten fully armed and armored soldiers. The KPD Mk. 4 can accelerate the craft up to the same speed as the Lightning, but acceleration and service ceiling is noticably lower.
The pilots cockpit is a partial sphere made out of crystal glass using a pair of sphere controls for direction and thrust. A pair of short, stubby tail wings are controlled by pneumatics to allow the craft better turn control when moving forward, but the craft can not otherwise rotate.
The cockpit door leads into the cabin area, featuring two rows of five jump seats that could carry ten soldiers or a modest amount of cargo. The rear bay is completely open to the air. The Aether Reactors are stationed on the upper shoulders of the craft in two armored, aerodynamic nacells, but in order to cut weight the rest of the craft is un armored. The Valkyrie has a tendency to capsize the same as the Lightning, and the pilot must be careful during take off and landing. "Fast-drops" are not recommended. The craft does not function particularly well in turbulent weather, but an experienced pilot should be able to keep it from flipping in strong winds. Expensive.
Post by: helmacon on August 23, 2017, 02:28:01 pm
By filling the empty space in our artillery shells with ballast of some kind we can increase the weight without designing a new material. The heavy shells will be less affected by wind, but are heavier themselves. This should help us regain a portion of our range on the artillery. The ballast also acts as extra debris and shrapnel for an exploding shell, increasing anti personnel capabilities.
Our other revision should be to make honest strike even cheaper so we can start using it in the lightning turrets and with more of the R1's.
I really don't know what to do about the event. It seems kinda mean to make us write about how we lost. oh well...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 23, 2017, 02:29:17 pm
It needs armor. Maybe we try a wholesale Crystal revision? Make it better armor without increasing weight? Would also help all our crystal designs. I think armor is the most important. Boarding before we upgrade armor is out of the question, and it'd be relatively harder to go behind enemy lines without armor.
It needs better agility. Just to improve stability, evasive capabilities, and allow for boarding. Would probably be best done with an upgraded KPD which would also help the Lightning.
And if wanted, we can easily revise it to turn the cabin into a bomb bay.
EDIT:
@helmacon We'd be better off making the CAF then easily revising crystal to be optionally heavier. Sure, it'd take two revisions, but then your revision would be much easier and we'd have semiautomatic weaponry firing at the rate of self-loading guns!
This is a possibility:
Revision: Crystal Subconjuration
Subconjuration is a new part of the conjuration sciences. It focuses on the more precise structure of conjured materials. At the level not seen by the visible eye, though it's effects are quite noticeable.
By refining and tweaking the Mathemagical formulae used to create Crystal, we can make Crystal much stronger and resistant to blasts, damage, and whatnot without increasing the weight.
Evicted, why can't the Valkyrie turn? That feels like something g guaranteed by the KPD4. If the Lightning can turn, shouldn't the Valkyrie be able to? Slower, maybe, but shouldn't it be possible?
Also Evicted, do we get an Expense decrease on the Valkyrie and Lightning if we use our Expense Credit on the Aether Reactor?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 23, 2017, 03:33:26 pm
Revision: Basic Crystal Armor Camouflage:
While complicated camouflage designs are currently beyond us, it's proving fairly simple to change the color of Crystal Armor to any single color. This isn't as helpful as it could be, but it's certainly very helpful in the Tundra and Desert, where single-color camouflage(white as snow, bland or whatever color sand is as the desert) could make quite the difference. Basically, where single-color camouflage is applicable, our soldiers will be much harder to spot in their Crystal Armor. In addition to the obvious benefits, this should also help our soldiers avoid air bombardment. Moskurg's Lucky Strike won't help if they can't see our soldiers!
Revision: Rocketshells:
By replacing the Magegems in our Blastshells with Aethergems, we can obtain a continuous power supply to power an MKPD to provide continuous thrust to any fired shells, increasing their range and hitting power.
Revision: Relentless Engine:
We're currently using a MANUALLY POWERED STEAM ENGINE(MADNESS!) for our Restless trains. This is MADNESS! It's very easy to replace the steam engine with an Internal Detonation Engine powered by Aethergems, freeing up the apprentices from operating the trains and speeding them up. Funny thing is, our Crystalclads are also using MANUALLY POWERED STEAM ENGINES, and if we manage to accomplish this revision, hopefully we can also apply this retrofitting to our Crystalclads.
Order: Snipe From The Skies:
By having AS-R1(hopefully with Honest Strike) snipers attack from the open bay of a Valkyrie, we can finally accomplish air support(and snipe enemy mages from the sky!)
Revision: Nickel Honest Strike:
As demonstrated earlier, nickel has basically the same magical properties as gold. By replacing the two copper scrolls of our Honest Strike module with a single nickel one, we can drop it an expense level.
Post by: Andres on August 23, 2017, 04:21:21 pm
Quote
1 - Make the Valkyrie cheaper: Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 23, 2017, 07:11:32 pm
So we should avoid making either of them cheap in the revisions and just use the expense credit for that.
Revision: Crystal Ammunition Fabricator
The Crystalworks works via using many smaller fabricator circuits to make products at scale. Because even as fast as one fabricator may be, many are needed for an army.
So we take a Fabricator circuit, program in "bullet" or "shell", and
The CAF allows our weaponry to become automatic. We don't know the speed of fabrication yet since that depends on the success of our engineers, but it shall be (mostly) the end of breech-loading. HA1s shall still mostly fire Blastshells and only use the CAF as an emergency, but for the AS-R1, the Lightning turret, and the AS-HAC-1, firing speeds will be like nothing we've ever seen before.
The CAF is to be fit to the Lightning turret then AS-R1 with utmost priority, with the AS-HAC-1 next in priority then the AS-HA1 last in priority.
TL;DR: Glue crystal fabricators onto barrels and set them to make bullets; get (semi-)automatic weaponry.
Quote
REVISIONImagine it - a cheap Lightning with a rapidfire turret. Think of the damage we'd be able to do!
0 - Heavy Shells
0 - Crystal Subconjuration
0 - Basic Crystal Armor Camouflage
0 - Blastshells
0 - Relentless Engine
0 - Nickel Honest Strike
1 - Crystal Ammunition Fabricator (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7544806#msg7544806): Chiefwaffles
Also a semi-automatic AS-R1. Or semi-automatic AS-HAC-1 emplacements. We'd greatly increase the effectiveness of all our guns.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 23, 2017, 07:18:40 pm
Anyhow.
By the way, we can replace a revision with an order to make the order not roll at disadvantage.
Quote from: Go Join King of the Mafia!
REVISION
0 - Heavy Shells
0 - Crystal Subconjuration
0 - Basic Crystal Armor Camouflage:
0 - Rocketshells
0 - Order: Snipe From The Skies:
1 - Relentless Engine: FallacyofUrist
0 - Nickel Honest Strike
1 - Crystal Ammunition Fabricator (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7544806#msg7544806): Chiefwaffles
EXPENSE CREDIT:
2 - Aether Reactor: Chiefwaffles(he didn't actually vote this, but it was fairly heavily implied), FallacyofUrist
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 23, 2017, 07:22:01 pm
Also we should REALLY do the bomber revision on the Valkyrie. We could even make a mixed bomber troop transport.
I dislike the idea of doing a portable Crystal Ammunition Fabricator as a revision, we should make it a design of a specific weapon, then we can expand it to others. The anti air turret would be the best, since it is vehicle mounted, so the first draft can be heavier, and it can be mounted on both lightnings and our IFV, providing ground based anti air support.
We can not do more transport or theoretical work this turn, we need something to hit them with. Bomber Valkyrie or rocket shells or cheap honest strike would all do that.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 23, 2017, 07:26:35 pm
Evicted has made it quite clear that Normal cost is the exact same thing as Cheap. They're the same thing. If something is at "Normal" expense, it'd be the same as "Cheap". They're just different terms for the same expense level.
Take, for example, the Magegems Expense Credit. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7513146;topicseen#msg7513146)
Expense Credit: Magegems"Decreasing the cost by 1"
We further cheapen production of magegems, decreasing the cost by 1.
AAAethergems are Cheap.
AAethergems are Cheap.
Aethergems are Expensive.
Making AAethergems go from Expensive to Cheap.
Note how they did not go from Expensive to "Normal".
@VoidSlayer: The CAF is not portable. It's simply a standardized thing by its very nature. After all, the revision is just gluing the Fabricator circuit, which we already have, to a barrel then programming it to make the right caliber. No portability at all. The only difference between using it on the R1 and the Lightning turret is increasing the caliber of the programmed bullet by 7mm. And I included priorities in the revision anyways.
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 23, 2017, 07:31:38 pm
We need to fix this thing not worry about crystal fabricators. This is worse then the wooden suspension for our IFV.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 23, 2017, 07:36:20 pm
Valkyrie has a tendency to capsize the same as the Lightning, and the pilot must be careful during take off and landing.The wooden suspension for the Protector made it useless. It's completely unlike this.
This issue has been proven to have little to none impact on effectiveness. We've already used the Lightning, which has this same exact issue, for two turns and capsizing wasn't mentioned.
That and our designers aren't that stupid. If people falling out during flight is a problem, we'd know that.
Post by: RAM on August 23, 2017, 08:12:47 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 23, 2017, 09:00:20 pm
Combat for 945
...
Avengers are a concern though, as it takes a few lightning strikes to knock them out of the sky. If they're too close then mages need to strike at the pilot or gunner, as the explosion would damage the Skyhawk. Thankfully, their massive control of the weather makes it hard for Arstotzka to scramble interceptors or launch sorties, as it's nearly impossible to maintain formation in such inclement weather, so they don't really do much on that end.
So yes, their wind is definitely hurting us. Their wind makes quick reaction and launching interceptions very difficult and formation in mid-air is also nearly impossible to maintain. Nothing critical, but definitely something to consider addressing. It's probably better now with the Lightning as it has much better agility and acceleration, but the general issues will still be present.
Also this quote from evicted on Discord when I asked him for clarification as to why we were losing in the Taiga. Not sure if I posted it before, so:
Quote from: evictedSaint (Discord)
evictedSaint - Last Sunday at 10:04 PM
Their tornadoes are extra effective there, they out-range you with artillery, and though you are slightly better at dogfighting, they have decent CAS and flying artillery platforms. You can beat them man-to-man, but they're not fighting you man-to-man if they can help it.
So basically it seems like that Arstotzka's airborne artillery is the #1 factor, with the tornadoes' impact on our general forces being the 2nd. And even though we are a bit better air-to-air, we're not good enough to eliminate their airborne artillery and we don't have any good designs to leverage our air advantage.
Post by: helmacon on August 23, 2017, 09:23:57 pm
The enemy's power comes from the weather, and while done have said that such a thing is beyond our abilities to counter, fortunately we have some experience in controlling weather on a large scale.
While the inner workings are a bit more complex, the end result is simple. We go from a tower that is spewing out cold and frost, to a tower that is sucking in wind and clouds. This should greatly reduce the strength of their storms, and all the associated magic that goes with it.
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 23, 2017, 09:35:21 pm
We incorporate a modified Honest Strike circuit into the control system for our aircraft, guiding not the weapons but the path of the ship itself. With this system every pilot flies like an ace and can fly through and recover in even the most difficult situations.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 23, 2017, 09:56:31 pm
Cloud eater towers.
The enemy's power comes from the weather, and while done have said that such a thing is beyond our abilities to counter, fortunately we have some experience in controlling weather on a large scale.
While the inner workings are a bit more complex, the end result is simple. We go from a tower that is spewing out cold and frost, to a tower that is sucking in wind and clouds. This should greatly reduce the strength of their storms, and all the associated magic that goes with it.
Sounds like a hard counter.
We'd be better off reducing the effect of their wind stuff on our important things. Just going "NUH UH YOU CAN'T USE WIND MAGIC CUZ I HAVE AN ANTI-WIND TOWER" is bound to get disapproval from evicted and a revision from Moskurg undoing this.
Reference for evicted's dislike of hard counters:
No, I made the call that Hard Counters aren't allowed any more. I shouldnt have let it happen in the first place, but I'm kind of a shitty GM.
True FlightI like the idea, but the expense seems to make it impractical when there are other way we could do this.
We incorporate a modified Honest Strike circuit into the control system for our aircraft, guiding not the weapons but the path of the ship itself. With this system every pilot flies like an ace and can fly through and recover in even the most difficult situations.
HonestStrike is Very Expensive. Soon, we're going to have two Cheap aircraft. It feels like we're bound to get limited deployment if we go this route.
KPD5 - Phased Array (Agility/Acceleration)
By implementing small-scale timers in the activation of the individual KPD4 propulsion circuits, we can modify the direction of thrust on any side of the craft, even if that side doesn't "match up" with the direction of thrust. We can have thrust coming from the bottom of the craft move it forwards, and whatnot.
This should notably increase the agility and acceleration of our craft, as we can get more acceleration for the same power input and have much more "flexibility" to control and rotate the craft. Stability should go up along with agility, as the increased agility will mean more control over the craft to more easily prevent capsizing and allow for hot-drops, better dogfighting, faster horizontal/etc. acceleration, and more.
TL;DR: Use timers to allow for directional thrust on all sides of the craft and thus allow for much greater control/agility/non-vertical acceleration.
((Reference: Wikipedia - Phased Array. Note the application of this in 1905.))
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phased_array)
KPD5 - Coregem (Stability)
With the solid-state improvements, AAethergems are made out of Mageglass now. As fabricators are mathematically perfect, we can use this to create "smarter" circuitry. Nowhere near "living", but hopefully allowing our circuitry to be a bit more dynamic and reactive.
We implement the Coregem in the KPD of the Lightning + Valkyrie. With the Coregem implemented, the KPD5 will be able to be much "smarter" in its use. Without requiring a pilot, the aircraft should make finer corrections itself and compensate for unintended movement/rotation - usually as a result of wind. The Coregem is still simple, but even a modest improvement in what the KPD can do itself will help a lot.
As the pilot has to worry a lot less about the more finer details, they can focus on more straightforward maneuvers, maybe even improving our dogfighting capabilities. But the main benefit of this is stability - the Coregem means that our pilots can focus more (not completely. yet.) on "move forward" instead of "tilt craft 16.3 degrees forward, active lower-back thrust to 39%."
Capsizing should be greatly reduced if not eliminated as the Coregem should kick in to handle that. Interference from wind should go down as the Coregem can compensate for that. Pilots should be able to launch interceptions and land much more quickly as they can focus on landing instead of keeping the craft from tipping over, greatly improving the responsiveness of our Lightnings and the "quick-drop" ability of our Valkyries.
TL;DR: Make our craft much more stability with what's basically an extremely primitive CPU. Kind of. Basically just a bit smarter circuitry handling some of the finer details. Should allow for quick loading/unloading of troops from Valkyries (even in combat!), quick launching of interceptions with Lightnings, no more capsizing, and hopefully the ability to keep formation in the air.
Quote from: Votes
REVISION
0 - Heavy Shells
0 - Crystal Subconjuration
0 - Basic Crystal Armor Camouflage:
0 - Rocketshells
1 - Relentless Engine: FallacyofUrist
0 - Nickel Honest Strike
1 - Crystal Ammunition Fabricator (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7544806#msg7544806): Chiefwaffles
0 - Cloud eater towers:
0 - True Flight:
0 - KPD5 Phased Array:
0 - KPD5 Coregem:
EXPENSE CREDIT:
2 - Aether Reactor: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
I'm going to vote for Crystal Subconjuration or one of the KPD5 variants for the 2nd revision, probably. I'll argue more for them later.
The point of the Coregem KPD5 is to increase our circuitry knowledge and to just make the KPD more stable. More polished. Less like a prototype rocket drive and more like a tested method of propulsion. The Phased Array is just a really cool way of hopefully greatly increasing acceleration/control.
Post by: Andres on August 23, 2017, 10:50:14 pm
Quote from: Votes
REVISION
0 - Heavy Shells
0 - Crystal Subconjuration
0 - Basic Crystal Armor Camouflage:
0 - Rocketshells
1 - Relentless Engine: FallacyofUrist
0 - Nickel Honest Strike
1 - Crystal Ammunition Fabricator (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7544806#msg7544806): Chiefwaffles
0 - Cloud eater towers:
0 - True Flight:
0 - KPD5 Phased Array:
0 - KPD5 Coregem:
1 - Aerophobic Crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7544969#msg7544969): Andres
EXPENSE CREDIT:
3 - Aether Reactor: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Andres
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Kadzar on August 23, 2017, 11:46:28 pm
Quote from: Votes
REVISION
0 - Heavy Shells
0 - Crystal Subconjuration
0 - Basic Crystal Armor Camouflage:
0 - Rocketshells
1 - Relentless Engine: FallacyofUrist
0 - Nickel Honest Strike
1 - Crystal Ammunition Fabricator (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7544806#msg7544806): Chiefwaffles
0 - Cloud eater towers:
0 - True Flight:
1 - KPD5 Phased Array: Kadzar
0 - KPD5 Coregem:
1 - Aerophobic Crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7544969#msg7544969): Andres
EXPENSE CREDIT:
4 - Aether Reactor: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Andres, Kadzar
Post by: helmacon on August 23, 2017, 11:52:36 pm
I should specify that's it's meant as a future design. I wouldn't try it as a revision.
On hard counters in general though, I kinda feel like we got the short end of the stick. I get where es is coming from, but they already got two over on us and we didn't do any to them. We are still fundamentally handicapped. The reason we use magi-tech is because straight up combat spells are impossible with their anti magic.
I am still ideologically opposed to the CAF. It's a cool concept, but Crystal ammunition is not very good ammunition. Plus I want to eventually make our explosive and range shells small enough that we can use them from our rifles. Once we have bolters and make our combat armor power armor, we are basically ultra marines. Explosive and range shells require inner workings that can't be summoned straight up.
I would be willing to vote for either true flight, cheaper honest strike, or aerophobic/heavy shells. (They do the same thing in different ways.)
someone add me to the expense credit pile.
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 24, 2017, 12:04:28 am
Quote from: Votes
REVISION
0 - Heavy Shells
0 - Crystal Subconjuration
0 - Basic Crystal Armor Camouflage:
0 - Rocketshells
1 - Relentless Engine: FallacyofUrist
1 - Nickel Honest Strike: Voidslayer
1 - Crystal Ammunition Fabricator (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7544806#msg7544806): Chiefwaffles
0 - Cloud eater towers:
0 - True Flight:
1 - KPD5 Phased Array: Kadzar
0 - KPD5 Coregem:
1 - Aerophobic Crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7544969#msg7544969): Andres
EXPENSE CREDIT:
4 - Aether Reactor: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Andres, Kadzar
Post by: andrea on August 24, 2017, 03:14:57 am
Mind you, I know that we are not getting a machinegun on a revision ( barring maybe a 6), but not having to reload should still improve effectiveness significantly.
Quote from: Votes
REVISION
0 - Heavy Shells
0 - Crystal Subconjuration
0 - Basic Crystal Armor Camouflage:
0 - Rocketshells
1 - Relentless Engine: FallacyofUrist
1 - Nickel Honest Strike: Voidslayer
2 - Crystal Ammunition Fabricator (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7544806#msg7544806): Chiefwaffles, Andrea
0 - Cloud eater towers:
0 - True Flight:
1 - KPD5 Phased Array: Kadzar
0 - KPD5 Coregem:
1 - Aerophobic Crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7544969#msg7544969): Andres
EXPENSE CREDIT:
4 - Aether Reactor: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Andres, Kadzar
Post by: Gwolfski on August 24, 2017, 04:31:43 am
Quote from: Votes
REVISION
0 - Heavy Shells
0 - Crystal Subconjuration
0 - Basic Crystal Armor Camouflage:
0 - Rocketshells
1 - Relentless Engine: FallacyofUrist
1 - Nickel Honest Strike: Voidslayer
3 - Crystal Ammunition Fabricator (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7544806#msg7544806): Chiefwaffles, Andrea, Gwolfski
0 - Cloud eater towers:
0 - True Flight:
1 - KPD5 Phased Array: Kadzar
0 - KPD5 Coregem:
1 - Aerophobic Crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7544969#msg7544969): Andres
EXPENSE CREDIT:
5 - Aether Reactor: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Andres, Kadzar, Gwolfski
Post by: evictedSaint on August 24, 2017, 11:06:13 am
Post by: evictedSaint on August 24, 2017, 01:50:38 pm
We attempt to integrate a fabrication unit into the barrels of our guns.
Crystal is light, which makes it intrinsically unsuited as ammunition. Weapons that use crystal shells experience a reduction in range and cannot use different ammo types. The automatic fabrication set-up in the Crystalworks is large and bulky, and we are unable to miniaturize it easily. Large copper scrolls for both the crystal design itself and the fabrication logic must be attached, along with D-level Aethergems and significant wiring. The set-up is fragile, cumbersome, and increases the expense of the weapon it is attached to by one. It can generate a crystal shell in the firing chamber at a rate of one every two and a half seconds for the R1, and this rate decreases as the size of the shell increases.
Overall, this revision for semi-automatic weapons was rather ambitious and probably should have been left to a design instead. It is currently not suitable for use in the field.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 24, 2017, 02:06:36 pm
Let's not waste any more time on that until next year. Now let's all vote Rocketshells and fix our artillery.
Quote from: Votes
REVISION 2
0 - Heavy Shells
0 - Crystal Subconjuration
0 - Basic Crystal Armor Camouflage:
1 - Rocketshells: FallacyofUrist
0 - Relentless Engine:
1 - Nickel Honest Strike: Voidslayer
0 - Cloud eater towers:
0 - True Flight:
1 - KPD5 Phased Array: Kadzar
0 - KPD5 Coregem:
1 - Aerophobic Crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7544969#msg7544969): Andres
EXPENSE CREDIT:
5 - Aether Reactor: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Andres, Kadzar, Gwolfski
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 24, 2017, 02:38:49 pm
Our fighter is going to become Cheap.
We need to improve the capabilities of our air game. Upgrading crystal armor makes it so we'll be able to fly the Valkyrie into combat situations once we upgrade its agility/stability, it means the Valkyrie is less delicate, and it'll make the Lightning even stronger.
Quote from: Votes
REVISION 2[/quote]
0 - Heavy Shells
1 - Crystal Subconjuration: Chiefwaffles
0 - Basic Crystal Armor Camouflage:
1 - Rocketshells: FallacyofUrist
0 - Relentless Engine:
1 - Nickel Honest Strike: Voidslayer
0 - Cloud eater towers:
0 - True Flight:
1 - KPD5 Phased Array: Kadzar
0 - KPD5 Coregem:
1 - Aerophobic Crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7544969#msg7544969): Andres
EXPENSE CREDIT:
5 - Aether Reactor: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Andres, Kadzar, Gwolfski
Post by: helmacon on August 24, 2017, 09:08:26 pm
Quote from: Votes
REVISION 2
0 - Heavy Shells
1 - Crystal Subconjuration: Chiefwaffles
0 - Basic Crystal Armor Camouflage:
1 - Rocketshells: FallacyofUrist
0 - Relentless Engine:
1 - Nickel Honest Strike: Voidslayer
0 - Cloud eater towers:
0 - True Flight:
1 - KPD5 Phased Array: Kadzar
0 - KPD5 Coregem:
2 - Aerophobic Crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7544969#msg7544969): Andres, helmacon
EXPENSE CREDIT:
5 - Aether Reactor: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Andres, Kadzar, Gwolfski
Aerophobic crystals gets a vote from me. Partly because its the best option, partly because it's the only option with a link.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 24, 2017, 09:16:38 pm
Quote from: Votes
REVISION 2
0 - Heavy Shells
1 - Crystal Subconjuration (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7544469;topicseen#msg7544469): Chiefwaffles
0 - Basic Crystal Armor Camouflage:
1 - Rocketshells: FallacyofUrist
0 - Relentless Engine:
1 - Nickel Honest Strike: Voidslayer
0 - Cloud eater towers:
0 - True Flight:
1 - KPD5 Phased Array: Kadzar
0 - KPD5 Coregem:
2 - Aerophobic Crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7544969#msg7544969): Andres, helmacon
EXPENSE CREDIT:
5 - Aether Reactor: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Andres, Kadzar, Gwolfski
Hmph. I linked Crystal Subconjuration. (Which is just basically making crystal stronger without increasing weight.)
Why you should vote for Crystal Subconjuration:
- Moskurg's advantage is entirely air-based. If we definitively win in the air, we win everywhere else.
- This turn we just doubled-down on our airgame by making the Valkyrie, something which relies on our air superiority. The Valkyrie will be useless without air superiority.
- The Valkyrie is completely unarmored. We need to armor the Valkyrie if we want to use it in combat situations. The Valkyrie will be impossible to use for boarding and will be very delicate until we give it better armor. If we ever want to give the Valkyrie a more active role, it needs armor. Crystal Subconjuration gives it armor.
- Crystal Subconjuration also helps the Lightning, increasing its effectiveness in air and ensuring continued air superiority.
- Crystal Subconjuration also helps everywhere we use Crystal. Including Combat Armor, Crystalclads, the Restless (kind of), and more. Everything we make is made out of crystal.
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 24, 2017, 09:19:27 pm
I just want stronger crystal that is resistant to shocks/impact and heat and is the same weight.
That should improve both ships and maybe the IFV.
Ideally it should allow all crystal vehicles to go up one level in armor, so current unarmored becomes light armor, light armor like the Lightning becomes medium armored and the IFV becomes heavily armored.
Post by: Andres on August 24, 2017, 09:36:51 pm
1. Our biggest advantage is our artillery, something which they have made very ineffective with their wind magic. The easiest, simplest way of getting an advantage over Moskurg is to get back that advantage. Our artillery has proven to be effective against their air assets so it will help in that regard as well.
- Moskurg's advantage is entirely air-based. If we definitively win in the air, we win everywhere else.
- This turn we just doubled-down on our airgame by making the Valkyrie, something which relies on our air superiority. The Valkyrie will be useless without air superiority.
- The Valkyrie is completely unarmored. We need to armor the Valkyrie if we want to use it in combat situations. The Valkyrie will be impossible to use for boarding and will be very delicate until we give it better armor. If we ever want to give the Valkyrie a more active role, it needs armor. Crystal Subconjuration gives it armor.
- Crystal Subconjuration also helps the Lightning, increasing its effectiveness in air and ensuring continued air superiority.
- Crystal Subconjuration also helps everywhere we use Crystal. Including Combat Armor, Crystalclads, the Restless (kind of), and more. Everything we make is made out of crystal.
2. Between the cheap Lightnings, the increased speed aerophobic crystal gives those Lightnings, and the AA fire our artillery will put out, we will have our air superiority.
3. The Valkyrie does not need to be used right in the thick of combat to be effective in combat situations. Furthermore, "unarmoured" just means they don't use any extra crystal for protection. They're still made of crystal and that means they'll be pretty tough regardless.
4. Aerophobic crystal helps the Lightning as well, allowing it to outmanoeuvre and outrun opposition much more easily.
5. Crystal subconjuration only helps everywhere crystal is used as armour. Right now, the strength of crystal as armour isn't an issue. It's our limited offensive capabilities that we have trouble with. Allowing our ammunition to fly farther, faster, and more accurately will do more for the war effort than better armour, especially since it means our artillery can once more be as useful as it used to be.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 24, 2017, 09:46:16 pm
Here's two alternative revisions though:
Revision: Aether Reactor - Crystal Dampeners
Via tweaking of the Aether Reactor Mk.2's energy dispellment circuits, we should be able to convert kinetic energy into sound in addition to the existing magical energy conversion. And as the Aether Reactor's power network should span the entirety of designs utilizing it (the Lightning turret, pneumatics, controls, especially the KPD, etc.), the dispellment effect should be felt across the entire design.
As the current system is designed to handle sudden overloads by the reactor, it should fit well (or at least well enough) with the sudden kinetic energy pulses from weapon impacts. Of course, not all of the kinetic energy can be converted, which is why we've named this revision Crystal Dampeners. It should greatly reduce the effect of projectiles hitting armor.
Essentially, when the armor of a design using the Reactor Mk. 2 is hit by something - a lightning bolt, a ballistae bolt, a coilgun shell, a bomb, anything - some of the energy of the impact is converted into harmless sound.
TL;DR: Tweak the Reactor's "sudden excess magical energy -> sound" circuitry to also do the same to kinetic energy, and it should apply across the whole craft due to the whole craft (KPD, turrets, pneumatics, etc.) being connected to the reactor. Thus greatly decreasing the damage of enemy weaponry, whether it's coilguns or lightning or ballistae or whatever.
Revision: Blastcrystal
Damage from weapon impacts is energy.
Crystal regeneration is energy-based.
These two things match.
Using similar techniques to anti-magic gems or the Aether Reactor Mk.2's safety circuits, we can tweak crystal to "route" a bit of energy from impacts to regeneration. Of course, only a small percentage of the energy is used towards regeneration. But that's less damage for the crystal and a bit more regeneration for the crystal.
This should make our crystal much more durable!
TL;DR: Harness a tiny portion of kinetic energy on crystal to instead route to crystal regeneration. Reduce effect of weapons against crystal.
1. Our biggest advantage is our artillery, something which they have made very ineffective with their wind magic. The easiest, simplest way of getting an advantage over Moskurg is to get back that advantage. Our artillery has proven to be effective against their air assets so it will help in that regard as well.Disclaimer: I'm not against Aerophobic Crystal, I'd just prefer upping our armor instead.
2. Between the cheap Lightnings, the increased speed aerophobic crystal gives those Lightnings, and the AA fire our artillery will put out, we will have our air superiority.
3. The Valkyrie does not need to be used right in the thick of combat to be effective in combat situations. Furthermore, "unarmoured" just means they don't use any extra crystal for protection. They're still made of crystal and that means they'll be pretty tough regardless.
4. Aerophobic crystal helps the Lightning as well, allowing it to outmanoeuvre and outrun opposition much more easily.
5. Crystal subconjuration only helps everywhere crystal is used as armour. Right now, the strength of crystal as armour isn't an issue. It's our limited offensive capabilities that we have trouble with. Allowing our ammunition to fly farther, faster, and more accurately will do more for the war effort than better armour, especially since it means our artillery can once more be as useful as it used to be.
1. Things change. Moskurg is entirely airborne now. Artillery isn't good against airships. At all. We already don't have a problem with their land forces, which artillery is good against.
2. Artillery isn't good at AA fire, and we should double down on air superiority. Make sure we have the lead. We can't get complacent before we even know if it's going to work.
3. "Unarmored" means it isn't armored. Not "it's relatively unarmored for crystal", but that it isn't armored. Just like how a very thin sheet of steel can be easily punctured by just about anything.
4. The Lightning already easily outmanoeuvres and outruns its opposition.
5. Just because it isn't fixing an "issue" doesn't mean it's not effective. Upping the armor of nearly every design we have is an insane improvement.
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 24, 2017, 10:10:46 pm
Revision: Blasting Crystal
Crystals are made out of stable energy, what if they were designed to destabilize when hit, releasing all the energy into an explosion. That is what blasting crystal is, dense crystal that detonates when struck hard, releasing all the energy used to create a massive explosion.
Quote from: Votes
REVISION 2
0 - Heavy Shells
2 - Crystal Subconjuration (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7544469;topicseen#msg7544469): Chiefwaffles, Voidslayer
0 - Basic Crystal Armor Camouflage:
1 - Rocketshells: FallacyofUrist
0 - Relentless Engine:
0 - Nickel Honest Strike:
0 - Cloud eater towers:
0 - True Flight:
1 - KPD5 Phased Array: Kadzar
0 - KPD5 Coregem:
2 - Aerophobic Crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7544969#msg7544969): Andres, helmacon
EXPENSE CREDIT:
6 - Aether Reactor: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Andres, Kadzar, Gwolfski, voidslayer
Post by: Gwolfski on August 25, 2017, 06:13:58 am
Quote from: Votes
REVISION 2
0 - Heavy Shells
2 - Crystal Subconjuration (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7544469;topicseen#msg7544469): Chiefwaffles, Voidslayer
0 - Basic Crystal Armor Camouflage:
1 - Rocketshells: FallacyofUrist
0 - Relentless Engine:
0 - Nickel Honest Strike:
0 - Cloud eater towers:
0 - True Flight:
1 - KPD5 Phased Array: Kadzar
0 - KPD5 Coregem:
3 - Aerophobic Crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7544969#msg7544969): Andres, helmacon, Gwolfski
EXPENSE CREDIT:
6 - Aether Reactor: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist, Andres, Kadzar, Gwolfski, voidslayer
Post by: evictedSaint on August 25, 2017, 10:34:29 am
Post by: evictedSaint on August 25, 2017, 12:40:04 pm
Further refinements to how the print logic for our crystal fabrication units allow us to produce crystal objects with a higher degree of precision. We can now produce highly complex shapes and designs; most notably is the fact that our Mathemagicians have derived the best aerodynamic shapes for our artillery, rifle, and cannon shells. Since this application is strictly related to our crystal ammunition, all weapons that use the CAF no longer have the range penalty. Stopping power is still reduced due to the light-weight crystal, and the increase in cost and lack of diversified ammo types means the CAF is still unfeasible for battlefield conditions.
Post by: evictedSaint on August 25, 2017, 01:52:16 pm
We set up dedicated workshops for the production of Aether Reactors, dropping the expense by one level. The Lightning and Valkyrie drop one expense level as well.
Please submit the duel reports for the Research Credit.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 25, 2017, 03:01:13 pm
Also Evicted, two questions -
1.) The revision was more general and I believe intended to reduce the effect of wind magic on our aircraft too. Was this noted? (I'll let Andres talk about this more if he cares)
2.) Considering the R1 and the Lightning turret/AS-HAC use single ammo types and that they'd just be Expensive with a +1 to expense, why isn't the CAF feasible for them?
Post by: andrea on August 25, 2017, 03:25:44 pm
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 25, 2017, 04:10:04 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 25, 2017, 05:58:30 pm
Duel Report
Spoiler: All Quiet in the Taiga Front (click to show/hide)
EDIT: Updated some things.
Since both revisions are useless without this, here's a design for a working CAF.
Future Design: CAF2
The CAF2 utilizes the revisions before it to make something truly great.
Spoiler: Fluff (click to show/hide)
Specialization - Currently the fabrication unit is designed specifically to accept different designs heavily varying in size/complexity. So if we hardwire the design in during fabrication so we just have one small circuit, we should be able to greatly increase power efficiency (and thus expense), size, weight, etc., and speed.
Weightite - Use our knowledge with modifying crystal to make a heavier form of crystal optimized for shells; call it "Weightite". Should hopefully be better than metal, but just "as good as metal" is somewhat acceptable.
Special Ammunition (Blastshells) - Make a crystal design for Blastshells to plug into the HA1 CAF2s. Should be easy. We already can make crystal circuitry + just upgraded the precision of crystal fabrication. We already make Magegems out of crystal. And we're already switching the metal to Weightite.
TL;DR: Specialize the CAF2 to hardwire in the crystal design and thus heavily reduce complexity and therefore increasing speed+power efficiency+weight/size+expense. Increase density of crystal for Weightite, and start making Blastshells out of 100% crystal so we can plug them into the HA1 CAF2s.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 25, 2017, 06:28:57 pm
Quote from: Duel Report
2 - Chiefwaffles' Duel Report: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUristOnly thing that needs changing is the title.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 25, 2017, 06:30:10 pm
It may be a placeholder name, but by god it's a good placeholder name.
But if you have a better name, be my guest.
Post by: helmacon on August 25, 2017, 06:40:22 pm
All quiet on the taiga front is a great name imo.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 25, 2017, 06:49:38 pm
I'm sorry, do you not like "All Quiet in the Taiga Front"?How about... "Sacrifice".
It may be a placeholder name, but by god it's a good placeholder name.
But if you have a better name, be my guest.
Okay fine I have no idea what to name it, really.
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 25, 2017, 09:00:30 pm
Since the revision gave us better aerodynamics in Crystal structures, does that mean that larger Crystal structures would benefit from the aerodynamics as well? * cough* like the lightning * cough cough**
All quiet on the taiga front is a great name imo.
Or we can just make a rocket-plane. It would use vastly less energy to have a plane instead of a flying saucer, resulting in a lighter reactor, faster more maneuverable aircraft and it could still fly forever. Basically go from UFO to aircraft.
If we need to push back the taiga directly I think rocket-shells would be a good idea next turn...
Actually, we could just make missile pods at this point. Aerodynamic, with a constant thrust from our reactor-blast engine, made out of steel for now (to keep the costs low on not needing to make an entirely new crystal type) with an Honest Flight guidance system (the guidance system is the only real innovation, everything else is just strapping existing parts together).
We could put a few missiles on the Lightning, two on our IFV (and fix the chassis) and a TON of them on our boats. Basically it would upgrade our ships to missile cruisers... which.. would make it very worth it.
Edit: we can make weightite on a revision next turn and then reduce the expense of the honest strike system, then on turn +2 we can make a full machine gun by combining all our stuff into a single design. The machine gun can go on our UFO, our IFV and be used in fixed emplacements by infantry.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 25, 2017, 10:07:57 pm
1.) We have much better knowledge of aerodynamics. This isn't explicitly stated, but it tends to be necessary to have "derived the best aerodynamic shapes" for projectiles. Before our knowledge was pretty much "if we make it pointed it moves faster".
2.) Explicitly stated greatly increased precision over crystal manufacture. We prooobably got this because evicted felt sorry for us.
Anyways. Have some designs!
Design: ASAF-B49 "Firestorm"
The B49 is the first true bomber.
Spoiler: Fluff (click to show/hide)
Body - Basically just the Lightning's base body minus the added bomb bay.
Turret - Retains the Lightning's turret, though it goes back to the AS-HAC-1 13mm instead of 20mm to save a bit of weight and since it's just for self-defense.
Bomb Bay - A large bomb bay with a pneumatics door on the bottom contains as many Blastshells (which should be a lot) as possible. Each Blastshell on a mount.
Bombing Sights - Self-explanatory. To help aim the bombs at high alttitudes.
ARC - We have cooling circuitry. We've mastered Fireball + its variants. Fireball is ultimately just summoning, igniting, and throwing a ball of gas. Instead, we just find a way to maintain a specific gas mix in a specific area.
- Cabin - Put the ARC in the cockpit + ball turret to allow for breathing at any altitude.
- KPD - Integrate the ARC in the KPD to compensate the effects of a thinning atmosphere on the KPD, thus eliminating the altitude ceiling and allowing the B49 to go as high as it needs to go.
TL;DR: A high-altitude bomber.
Design: ASN-C49 "Triton"
The C49, the C standing for "Carrier", symbolizes a new kind of naval warfare.
Lately, the state of naval battles has been left up only to the aircraft. So instead of fighting the status quo, why not embrace it? The Triton is designed specifically for this new avenue of warfare.
Spoiler: Fluff (click to show/hide)
Armor - Similar or greater to/than the Crystalclad.
Bridge - A crystal glass raised bridge is present.
Turrets - Simple 2x 20mm pneumatics-powered turrets are placed on the craft for self-defense against nearby hostile aircraft and sea vessels.
Propulsion - An IDE propels the C49 Triton.
Power - Considering the weaker KPD1 worked at 4 PSF-Cs/second and an IDE uses the much less powerful SPSF-Cs to operate, a single Aether Reactor should be able to handle the 2x 20mm turrets and IDE easily.
Flight Deck/Hangar - The top deck is designed specifically to facilitate takeoffs/landings and storage of aircraft. The deck below this one is primarily for storage of aircraft. Both Valkyries and Lightnings should be fine.
Pneumatic Lift - A pneumatics-powered lift connects the two decks for easy unpowered aircraft/storage transport between them. Low priority, since aircraft can just move between decks themselves since 100% VTOL.
TL;DR: We build a
Remember when we had steam engine paddleboats that struggled to carry just the steam engine itself?
@VoidSlayer: You're describing exactly the Seeker missiles. The other design I submitted that lost to the Valkyrie.
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 25, 2017, 11:39:16 pm
We have enough air craft right now, we need a better weapon for it.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 26, 2017, 12:03:34 am
The Seeker is what you're describing.
Also Crystal is literally cheaper than steel. Even if we hold the mountains this turn and get the metal bonus steel still won't be cheaper since we've invested infrastructure into Crystal. Remember - this is what evicted said about Crystal:
Your crystal is lighter than steel, but denser than water. It is also lighter than Moskurgs Adamantium, can hold an edge better, is harder, more brittle, and you can essentially 3D print the stuff.
Moskurgs Adamantium is a constant temperature outside of magical forging, lighter than steel, and cheap as dirt. It has similar hardness and brittleness to RHS, and all their blacksmiths are trained in forging it.
There's a reason we make everything out of crystal.
Also, the only reason we don't use crystal ammunition right now (even without the CAF) is since it'd have less stopping power. That doesn't really matter for missiles.
Post by: VoidSlayer on August 26, 2017, 12:55:31 am
Yes.
The Seeker is what you're describing.
Also Crystal is literally cheaper than steel. Even if we hold the mountains this turn and get the metal bonus steel still won't be cheaper since we've invested infrastructure into Crystal. Remember - this is what evicted said about Crystal:Your crystal is lighter than steel, but denser than water. It is also lighter than Moskurgs Adamantium, can hold an edge better, is harder, more brittle, and you can essentially 3D print the stuff.
Moskurgs Adamantium is a constant temperature outside of magical forging, lighter than steel, and cheap as dirt. It has similar hardness and brittleness to RHS, and all their blacksmiths are trained in forging it.
There's a reason we make everything out of crystal.
Also, the only reason we don't use crystal ammunition right now (even without the CAF) is since it'd have less stopping power. That doesn't really matter for missiles.
In that case we need to just up the power of the explosion, though a steel jacket might still be good to penetrate armor, and some smaller pieces for shrapnel in an anti personnel version, although in those cases we could just make specialized crystal or explosive spells.
For way out there stuff, it looks like right now our mages are doing nothing directly on the battlefield. What if once we have the portable crystal fabricator up we make a "backpack" variant that can be directly used by a wizard to create whatever they are thinking of, mixing "mind detection" magic with versatile circuits, with their "maginess" linking the diffrence. They could create fortification and weapons, blades, traps specialized armor and all sorts of stuff, like elemental control; but with crystals. It would also bridge the gap to make our magi tech both usable by none wizards and super buff our wizards.
Post by: Andres on August 27, 2017, 03:41:46 am
Revision: Aerophobic Shells [5]evictedSaint, this has nothing to do with what was described in the post for Aerophobic Crystal. It was a revision of the actual crystal material itself - similar to the Transparent Crystal revision - so that all our crystal stuff would be a lot more aerodynamic, including our aircraft. It was supposed to make it so that air would slide right off the crystal instead of rubbing against it, significantly reducing air resistance. It was not supposed to be a new way to shape crystal. The revision was Aerophobic Crystal, not Aerophobic Shells. The mention of shells was just supposed to be an example of what the new kind of crystal should've been able to do. The fact that I used "aerophobic" instead of "aerodynamic" should've been enough to note that it was a material advancement, not a shaping advancement.
Further refinements to how the print logic for our crystal fabrication units allow us to produce crystal objects with a higher degree of precision. We can now produce highly complex shapes and designs; most notably is the fact that our Mathemagicians have derived the best aerodynamic shapes for our artillery, rifle, and cannon shells. Since this application is strictly related to our crystal ammunition, all weapons that use the CAF no longer have the range penalty. Stopping power is still reduced due to the light-weight crystal, and the increase in cost and lack of diversified ammo types means the CAF is still unfeasible for battlefield conditions.
EDIT: This as a Revision should be possible since we did something similar in regards to changing the properties of crystal itself in the form of Transparent Crystal.
Post by: RAM on August 27, 2017, 03:26:58 pm
@Andrea: If we assume there's a direct correlation between shell size and fabrication time, then it'd still take less than 5 seconds for the CAF to work in the Lightning turret. (AS-R1 is ~12mm, Lightning turret is 20mm).(20/12)^3*2.5=11.57...
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 27, 2017, 04:00:16 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 27, 2017, 04:37:02 pm
Still, though. Looking at just speed, the Lightning Turret should still benefit from the CAF1. The loading times would definitely be higher than my initial estimate but probably somewhat lower than 11.57 seconds.
@Fallacy: That's actually a really good idea. I'll keep that in mind for when I try getting the ARC or an ARC-containing design passed.
Anyways, since I'm making a new post, I may as well post a design!
Idea behind this one is to make a new gun - the AS-HA1 was introduced in 932 and the AS-HAC-1 in 938. They're both designed around outdated concepts. The AS-HAC-1 was basically designed as a prototype for breech-loading and a stop-gap measure for Moskurg's primitive completely unarmored airforce. It has bad range, bad stopping power, bad aiming, and bad rate of fire for what it was designed to do. We've improved in a lot of ways since then, so we should really update our mainstay weaponry.
Design: AS-AC49 "Devastator"
(AutoCannon 949; successor to HAC-1 - Hybrid AutoCannon-1)
The AC49 Devastator is, well, it's a devastating weapon. A new 20mm gun that's actually an autocannon, designed to replace the AS-HAC-1 in the field.
Spoiler: Fluff (click to show/hide)
Reactor - We put a greatly downscaled Reactor, just enough power for the gun itself, in the weapon. Though the gun can be made without the reactor if it's being made to put in a vehicle with its own power source. (Given the reactor is just a specific arrangement of crystals + bit of extra circuitry, this should be no problem.) Lets the AC49 use more power (thanks to Reactor's power output!) and be usable by anyone.
KPD Propellant - We adapt the KPD for use as propellant, taking advantage of its greater power, control, and directional thrust. Greater power/control should drastically improve barrel velocities, but the directional thrust should also let us scale power without scaling barrel thickness - since the barrel doesn't need to brunt the unfocused blast anymore.
CAF2 - The CAF1 is just a fabrication unit stuck on a gun. It's designed to make things of any complexity of design with the ability to swap in different designs. We do not need this on a gun. So instead we just hardwire in a design and make the crystal fabricator only big/power-hungry enough for the bullet and not for the most complex biggest design we could ever theoretically make. Should greatly improve expense/power efficiency/size/reliability/speed. Focus of the design.
Weightite - While at it, we finagle the CAF2 to make denser crystal for bullets. Should be easy, given our crystal tweaking experience + how this is basically just "put more crystal per centimeter." Basically.
Use - The AC49 is to be used with a mount for infantry largely replacing the AS-HAC-1 and will replace the existing 20mm gun in the Lightning.
TL;DR - We make the next generation gun. With full CAF integration, integrated reactor, better stopping power and more, this will become a hugely versatile gun for both infantry and vehicle use. Basically the AS-HAC-2, but with a less silly name.
Post by: helmacon on August 30, 2017, 10:30:03 am
In the spirit of that, Let's play a teambuilding game!
The game is called "The exquisite corpse". It's an old parlor game from the early 1900's. I will write one sentence. The next person will read that sentence, and write one more sentence off of it. Here's the twist. The person after that can only read person 2's sentence, and then they write a sentence off of that, without knowing what my original sentence was. We continue this until we get bored, or everyone has had a turn, or just whenever really, and then we put it all together and read the story we wrote!
Please keep sentences separated in spoilers, so we can play without reading other sentences. If you get ninjad, wait for a few other people to post, and then try again so you aren't overly informed of the story.
Let's aim for 10 sentences on the first one.
Spoiler: Sentence 1 (click to show/hide)
Post by: andrea on August 30, 2017, 10:46:02 am
Spoiler: Sentence 2 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Gwolfski on August 30, 2017, 11:03:40 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: FallacyofUrist on August 30, 2017, 12:33:00 pm
Spoiler: Sentence 4 (click to show/hide)
Post by: andrea on August 30, 2017, 12:45:13 pm
Spoiler: Sentence 5 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Urist Mc Dwarf on August 30, 2017, 02:19:21 pm
Spoiler: Sentence 6 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Andres on August 30, 2017, 03:10:05 pm
Spoiler: Sentence 7 (click to show/hide)
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: helmacon on August 30, 2017, 03:17:48 pm
Spoiler: sentence 8 (click to show/hide)
Post by: andrea on August 30, 2017, 03:47:06 pm
Spoiler: sentence 9 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Gwolfski on August 30, 2017, 04:14:03 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: helmacon on August 30, 2017, 04:36:58 pm
Post by: Andres on August 30, 2017, 04:53:26 pm
Spoiler: Sentence 11 (click to show/hide)
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: helmacon on August 30, 2017, 05:40:19 pm
Spoiler: Sentence 12 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Chiefwaffles on August 30, 2017, 06:01:28 pm
Spoiler: Sentence 13 (click to show/hide)
Post by: andrea on August 30, 2017, 06:39:51 pm
Spoiler: Sentence 14 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Andres on August 30, 2017, 07:56:39 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Urist Mc Dwarf on August 31, 2017, 02:30:41 pm
Spoiler: Sentence 16 (click to show/hide)
Post by: FallacyofUrist on September 01, 2017, 07:05:20 am
Spoiler: Sentence 17 (click to show/hide)
Post by: Andres on September 02, 2017, 07:25:05 pm
Spoiler: Sentence 18 (click to show/hide)
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 02, 2017, 07:34:37 pm
Spoiler: Final Product (click to show/hide)
Surprisingly okay.
Arstotzka seems mildly OP though.
Post by: helmacon on September 02, 2017, 10:40:12 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 03, 2017, 04:35:00 am
This one's Andres' idea on Discord. Not something I particularly care about, but interesting enough to me to write up a design for it. It's a revision because it's tweaking (revising) Crystal to adopt properties of existing technology. Pretty straightforward. Should get bonuses if anything.
Future Revision: Blastcrystal (I know it uses the same name as a prior crystal revision, but it fits this one better.)
We already know how to make crystal that explodes - solid-state Aethergems. We know the mechanics of the explosion. We even know how to make the explosions bigger via supercharging the Aethergems. We're also good at tweaking crystal.
So let's revise a Crystal variant that explodes. Violently.
Blastcrystal is pretty straightforward. It's crystal revised to, once detonated, explode in magical energy. How it's detonated isn't a huge concern - optimally via a safe & tiny "activation" circuit, or by just inputting magical energy, or even by impact if all else fails.
If all goes well, CAFs should begin manufacturing Blastcrystal projectiles. In the future, perhaps we can issue stable Blastcrystal packages to soldier for field detonations, sabotage, and other fun activities.
TL;DR: Explosive crystal to serve as a substantial, versatile, and simpler upgrade to the prior "Magegem + Blastball circuitry + trigger mechanism/whatever" system in Blastshells.
My own idea that I quite like.
Future Design: ASA-FV49 "Artificer"
A simple land vehicle equipped with a smaller-scale IDE (speed isn't a huge issue, but even at smaller scales the IDE should work quite well without notable transmission/suspension issues), a Mk.2 Reactor, and most importantly, a modified Crystal Fabrication suite.
Spoiler: Fluff (click to show/hide)
The Artificer can be used for many things. Producing infantry armor and weapons at the front. Making new vehicles (relatively) quickly and easily as needed! Providing logistics support! Building Restless tracks! Building any kind of infrastructure, such as homes, support buildings like kitchens and command outposts and barracks and more. Numerous very-quickly-built expansive bunkers wherever our forces go. Reinforced trenches. And much, much more.
Vehicle Frame - Small enclosed driver's cabin at front. Lightly-armored Mk.2 reactor, slightly-smaller IDE (or just regular sized), unarmored and open frame.
Crystal Fabrication Suite - Bunch of circuitry hooked to Reactor to allow for quick and versatile crystal fabrication, even compared to a Crystalworks Fabrication Unit. Greatly upscaled to take maximum reactor power and to maximize speed+versatility.
Premade Designs (Cartridges) - Accepts Cartridges (just the existing Crystal Design Circuitry but covered in small crystal shell for convenience+portability) for pre-made 100% crystal designs. Like Combat Armor, Crystal Axes, and other stuff.
Realtime Designs - Mages can directly dictate fabrication in real-time to make large structures as needed. Just like casting a spell except combined with transferring energy to circuitry. Great for any crystal structure - buildings, fortifications, infrastructure, etc.. Imperfect, but imperfections are very acceptable at large-scale.
TL;DR: A vehicle that can build structures out of crystal and can manufacture any existing 100% crystal designs in the field. Like those builder units in RTS games.
Future Design: ASAF-FC49 "Thunder" (Placeholder nickname)
The Flying Carrier 949 is a very self-explanatory name.
Lightnings are a formidable weapon. But they're unorganized. We're stuck to makeshift landing pads haphazardly spread across the front lines in order to deploy our Lightnings. While effective, it could be so much more effective. The FC49 is a way to remedy this.
Spoiler: Fluff (click to show/hide)
Hull Layout - Small living quarters, small cargo bay, crystal glass bridge, armored reactor room, hangar, and other miscellaneous stuff. No top deck bar for sparse maintenance hatches/walkways. Moderately armored, but not really designed to actually be in a close-quarters fight.
Hangar - Largest part of ship, basically a rectangular hole cut out through center designed to fit 6 Lightnings (with the ability to also fit in Valkyries) and with armored pneumatic hangar doors on both sides.
Indefinite Deployment - The very modest living quarters+cargo bay should allow for relatively long term deployment without supply lines, and with use of easy Valkyrie supply runs, should allow for indefinite deployment.
2x Lightning Ball Turrets - Placed for maximum coverage; self-defense. Should still stay out of combat.
Expense - Low-priority. If there's an incompatibility between "Enough reactors to allow for flight" (though optimally there shouldn't have to be a choice) and "not super expensive", choose the latter. Though cheaper is of course better still.
TL;DR: An air carrier.
Edit: I have decided to make MORE DESIGNS.
Future Design: AS-UFD49 "Architect"
UFD - Universal Fabrication Device
The Architect is a straightforward device. It's a simplified Crystal Fabrication Unit. The extreme majority of a Fabricator's circuitry is in the precision and complexity. Crystal designs must be interpreted perfectly. Each bit of crystal must be laid in the perfect place, with zero room for error. The Architect takes a more haphazard approach.
The Architect is a tool for our infantry. A small lightly-armored Mk.2 Reactor is mounted like a backpack onto the back of Combat Armor. The Mk.2 Reactor is connected by wiring to the actual Architect device - a handheld "gun"-like tool housing the small amount of crystal fabrication circuitry required.
Once the trigger is pressed, the Architect, in layman's terms, "sprays" Crystal forward. Crystal is fabricated in front of the Architect. Due to the large amount of power generated (even in the smaller reactor) and the much greater simplicity of the Architect, the fabrication process is extremely quick. After all, this is just directing a very large amount of power towards "make crystal here" and nothing else. Whereas actual crystal designs can have thousands of individual instructions. Small dials on either the reactor mount or the handheld tool itself allow for adjusting the size of the fabricated crystal, meaning large structures can be built and small adjustments can be made both very quickly.
The Architect represents the future of construction. Construction materials won't have to be shipped to the site. A single man can "spray" down a Bunker in an hour. Trenchs can be easily reinforced. Cover can be made nearly instantly on demand. Infrastructure like armories, kitchens, barracks, and much more can be made quickly as needed. Restless tracks can be easily laid down wherever our army goes. Even in our cities, the Architect can be used to create large glorious structures quickly for the government, military, and perhaps citizenry.
TL;DR: A Crystal gun. It makes Crystal where you point it. Because of high power input and a very simple design, it should be able to work extremely fast. Obsoletes all other construction. Etc. etc.
Post by: evictedSaint on September 05, 2017, 04:36:44 am
Moskurg spends their design phase furthering their control over lightning. This attempt wasn't quite as successful as it could be, but they do manage to extend their Wands of Thunderbolts effective range out to Medium. They follow this up by tweaking their lightning to have a more explosive result when it strikes, and though it doesn't throw shrapnel it should be quite effective against harder targets. Their second revision is an overhaul of their Phoenix airship. The Alannar is removed out of the tank, the turrets and defenses are stripped out, and a hatch/ramp is added to the tank. The most immediate effect is that Moskurg can now effectively supply their artillery cannons, so baring unfortunate circumstance they shouldn't run short of ammo. It can also transport troops and other equipment, but the craft is rather unweildy and vulnerable so it won't see much combat action beyond getting troops into position before and after battles. They choose not to spend their espionage credit this year.
Arstotzka likewise creates air-borne troopers with the invention of the Valkyrie - an overhauled Lightning with a cargo bay. Like Moskurgs transport Phoenix, it should help with troop movements and ammo supplies. It carries fewer troops than the Phoenix, but its smaller size and more robust armor - on the Aether Reactors, at least - make it more suited to dropping troops in combat zones, to some degree. It doesn't function optimally in turbulent weather and is prone to capsizing if the pilot is negligent. For their revision, Arstotzka attempts to develop fully automatic weapons and fails, primarily due to the ambition of the design for a revision. For their second revision they improve the aerodynamics of their artillery shells, furthering the range by one and helping to make up the difference between the two sides. Moskurgs Thunderguns still out range them, but only just. They spend their Expense Credit on their Aether Reactors, dropping the cost by one. This makes their Lightning and Valkyrie Normal Cost.
Arstotzka makes an attempt to further their foothold in the desert.
The flatter, more open terrain makes targets easy to spot, and with no cover to be had troops on the ground are at the mercy of whatever happens to be above. Whether it be bombs, artillery shells, falling skyships, or lightning blasts, the men on the ground trudge through it all. Melees are bloody and brief, but the majority of the combat is determined by the airforce and artillery. Arstotzkas new Valkyrie and cheaper Lightning still struggle in Moskurgs control of the air, and with lightning blasts now hitting with more devastating results it's hard for the crafts to stay airborne. They take significant troop losses whenever Moskurg manages to catch Valkyries flying out and about, and soon the transport crafts are regulated to hauling where the Restless trains cannot. It's pretty handy for getting troops further inland, and less so for pulling troops out of compromised positions. Moskurgs Phoenix is too much of a target and Expensive, so it is regulated solely to bringing up troops and dropping off supplies from the capitol. This effect is less pronounced than Arstotzka's limited air-dropped troops, but the fact that their Thunderguns outrange anything Arstotzka has and their nowhere to hide in open desert makes their non-stop firing deadly.
Arstotzka has some success air-raiding, but their progress is continually hampered by their inability to easily air-strike the artillery positions. The Lightning can't drop bombs or angle their turret towards the ground, and the obsolete Avenger must be brought in to drop artillery shells where it can. The Valkyrie is more useful, as it's able to drop squads right on artillery positions - when it can get through. Most are shot down by lightning blasts cracking through their limited armor, and the ones that get through generally don't make it back when the Skyskiffs come in to mop up. They take heavy losses, but they're ultimately able to hit Moskurgs artillery positions, even if their own artillery can't. Moskurg is still even with Arstotzka in the air, but the longer range on their Wands of Thunderbolts and the inclimate weather helps make up their lost advantage. Tornadoes, lightning strikes, and non-stop rain and snow are mixed in with artillery barrages, chipping away at the invading forces. Moskurg is still garbage when Arstotzka manages to meet their troops man-for-man, and oasis town after oasis town is lost as they march further south. Their control of the coast lets them drop troops behind enemy lines, but Arstotzka is able to quickly respond with their Valkyries...sometimes, if the weather isn't too bad, and they are aware of the attack. Arstotzka is still operating on a flare-based communication system, which has flaws of its own. Moskurgs short-range teletalk wands aren't much better, and in some cases worse - at least once, Arstotzkan Anti-Mages manage to land behind their lines in a brave Valkyrie mission and disrupt a supply center, hampering the war effort. With the wands being so short ranged, Moskurg doesn't get the alarm out and the center is razed. The Phoenix, despite its successful overhaul, can't quite compete with the same versitility, but at least the troops it carries don't call it the "Flying Coffin". The name Valkyrie is quite fitting for Arstotzka's troop transporter, it seems. More often than not, the men inside are carried off to Valhalla rather than war.
The Protector, as always, is garbage.
It's close - very close. Arstotzka makes up quite a bit of the gap between themselves and Moskurg, but Moskurg still has the longer stick when it comes to artillery, barely. Moskurg may not have the better troops, but they can land behind Arstotzka - a feat no longer unique to naval forces, as Arstotzka can do the same with very limited success. The weather makes up for where Moskurg is lacking in air power, preventing Arstotzka from making coordinated air sorties and knocking a few of them out of the skies. The fact that troops on the ground have limited use in the wide-open coverless terrain means that Moskurg ultimately wins, barely. It's too close for comfort, but they manage to beat the northern invaders back to the mountains.
Moskurg regains the Desert.
Arstotzka barely manages to hold the plains to the east.
Their new aerodynamic shells means Arstotzka can match Moskurg's artillery out to their accurate range, even if they can't match their inaccurate range. In the plains, troops can at least dig in for cover. Moskurg shells fall day-and-night, but their accuracy at BLOS+1 means successful strikes are uncommon. Arstotzka must push forward a range to get into firing range with their own artillery, and in this case it becomes a heavy-weight slug-fest between artillery batteries. A near-strike is enough to knock out an opponent, regardless of which side fired. Arstotzka has slightly more artillery, so they can out-perform Moskurg through sheer volume of fire, but Moskurgs Skyhawks still rule up above in the artillery game. Essentially flying battleships, they are still the single-most long-range cannon on the battlefield, and though they're Very Expensive they help even the score. Ultimately the artillery is tied between the two, but Moskurg still sets the distance between trenchlines.
Much as in the desert, the two airforces are more-or-less even, with Moskurg edging out slightly ahead with their Wands hitting out an extra degree of range. Arstotzka is still faster, Moskurg still has better maneuverability and acceleration, and Arstotzka still has the longer-range offensive armament. The two airforces have come to a begrudging respect for one another, although both will point out their own advantages when the topic of who would win in a dogfight comes up.
The Protector is still pretty awful.
Moskurg has the landing advantage with their control of the coast. Arstotzka's Valkyries give them a similar advantage, but it is noticeably less pronounced due to the unreliability of the craft. Arstotzka makes up for it with their blatantly superior infantry, and their snipers help knock out key personnel and harass Moskurg troops whenever they poke their heads out of the trenches.
With the loss of their overwhelming artillery advantage, the loss of their air advantage, and the loss of their unique landing advantage, Moskurg must cede a portion of the ground to Arstotzka and pull back. It's not an overwhelming loss, as their landing advantage is still superior, their control of the weather and the air still exists, but with Arstotzka managing to match more of their artillery and get troops across the ground with less harm than normal, they ultimately lose ground this year.
Arstotzka gains a section of the Plains.
The Taiga fills with smoke as the fighting creeps ever closer northward.
Moskurg makes good use of their Phoenix as a transporter to get troops and ammo up in the inhospitable north. The tanks of food, ammo, and alnnar is well-recieved by hungry and cold infantry men. The standard Phoenix is still infrequently used to burn out patches of trees; or at least the ones Moskurgs tornadoes don't tear up. As always, the amount of debris available makes the pillars of wind extra lethal against infantry regardless of how armored they are. Lighting bolts from above and bombing runs are less effective with the dense pine-tree air cover, but they still play a role. This lack of effectiveness hurts Moskurg more than it does Arstotzka - not that it's necessarily a good thing for Arstotzka either, but this is their home and they know it quite well. Anti-Mages continue their brutal sniping campaign from the trees, but there's only so many of them and Moskurg infantry has always outnumbered Arstotzka's. Artillery barrages bracket known areas of Arstotzkan snipers with mixed success, but what's most devastating is Arstotzkan troops erupting from the tree lines to ambush their desert counterparts. Screaming, clad in blue crystal armor and swinging crystal axes, the vikings are brutal when they meet in melee.
The Protector does nothing useful here.
The Valkyrie's usefulness is further limited as the dense tree cover makes it impossible to find a good landing zone, but all this does is level the playing field between the two sides. Moskurg doesn't control the sea, and their Phoenix isn't a combat transporter. Nevertheless, the air battle rages on to see who can provide their own brand of limited aerial usefulness. Moskurg edges out most of the time, but fewer Skyskiffs come home each day - the device is starting to show its age. Still, for random bombing runs and artillery strikes, Moskurg has the advantage.
With Arstotzka winning out in the melee's and Moskurg winning out when it comes to support units, the battle is actually pretty even. One side must ultimately win, however, and the fact that al-Mutriqa is still standing (at times with the use of a cane) makes the difference. Moskurg manages just barely to grind out another section of controlled Taiga. None of the Moskurg soldiers are particularly thrilled with their progress. The battles were bloody and indecisive, they are quite a ways away from home, and the blasted cold makes everything miserable. The fact that they can see Arstotzka's wooden walls from the frontlines is the only thing that gives them hope; next year will be fought in Arstotzka's capitol, and if they win it will be the end of this age-old war that has dragged on for decades. The Arstotzkan defenders will not likely just hand the capitol over, however; the designs this year could determine whether the war ends with a victorious Moskurg, or whether Arstotzka will manage to drive the southern invaders back out of the north.
Moskurg gains another section of Taiga. NEXT YEAR WILL BE FOUGHT IN THE ARSTOTZKAN CAPITOL.
As it has been for the past few years, the ocean battles are being mostly determined by air power.
Arstotzka had the advantage last year with their new powered turrets, but this year Moskurgs explosive lightning and longer Wand range they can scrape out a very small advantage. Moskurg manages to to sink a few more ships and shoot down a few more airships, which technically makes them the winner in this theatre this year.
Moskurg regains a section of shoreline in the Northern Seas
Post by: evictedSaint on September 05, 2017, 04:37:19 am
Espionage Credit!!!
After the brutal in-fighting that disrupted the Arstotzkan design team a few years ago, the team has taken pains to generate an atmosphere of love, well-being, and acceptance for their members. Their traitor, after going a few years without Moskurg taking up their offer for espionage, disappears from the capitol in the south. Apparently their issue has been resolved; as such, Moskurg loses their Espionage Credit.
Research Credit!!!
The battle reports have been compiled.
Spoiler: Moskurg: NUKE9.13 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzka: chiefWaffles (click to show/hide)
After comparing the two extraordinary reports, the Moskurg report is ultimately superior. Anyone familiar with the rivalry between al-Mutriqa and Myark would know that al-Mutriqa would never strike down his fallen rival; never once in all his years of fighting has the crazed fanatic struck down the crazed berserk, no matter how many chances he'd been given. That detail in the Arstotzkan reports instantly brings skepticism to even the most casual listener, defeating the purpose of building moral. Moskurg gains the Research Credit.
It is 949, the Design Phase.
Spoiler: State of Forenia, 949 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Mundane Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Magical Equipment (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Elite Units (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Arstotzkan Spells (click to show/hide)
Behavior Rules. Please Read.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: RAM on September 05, 2017, 05:19:12 am
Quote
We summon a new material called weightite. Modelled on the crystalworks summoners, we instead seek out somthing simpler than crystal, a mathermagical simplicity that can hasten the summoning process with its simple simplicity. Likely a metal or stone. The hope is for something one hundred times the weight of water per given volume... By working it into our existing bullet summoning, newly revised to solve the kinks, we hope to produce ordnance that are much heavier and faster to summon. It is hoped that these can be implemented with our cannons, starting with the HC1-E
Post by: FallacyofUrist on September 05, 2017, 06:55:36 am
I'd recommend for our design the Firestorm bomber, possibly simplified to make it more likely to succeed. Our lack of air support is really hurting us.
For our first revision, I'd fix the Firestorm if it needed fixing, and if not... maybe try to make the CAF work? Or more reliably, go with Nickel Honest Strike to decrease the expense level of Honest Strike. They would be much more useful at Expensive level as opposed to Very Expensive.
For our second revision, I'd either implement Honest Strike in either our Lightning or our Firestorm, or manufacture a new type of crystal armor that's lightning resistant.
Basically, deal with all the things that are hurting us the most. I expect lengthy discussion before bandwagoning this time around. Arstotzka depends on it.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 05, 2017, 10:13:43 am
Then maybe we can improve the effectiveness of Crystal as armor.
For our design, I dunno. I'm not sure about a bomber, since for some reason we don't have air dominance right now and considering the hints Evicted put in this update, there's a very large chance Moskurg will make a new interceptor.
Maybe a new interceptor-bomber? Just make a new better version of the Lightning then give it a couple bombs.
Post by: helmacon on September 05, 2017, 10:27:10 am
The regulator is a CAF design for automatic fire. It summons a series of hollow crystal shells from drawn power and uses a mechanical system to feed them into the firing mechanism and discharge the weapon. It summons shells up to a dozen at a time, keeping the others in reserve. An explosively wired mage gem can be placed inside the chamber, and the crystal will be summoned around it. While operating the regulator in this manner reduces the speed at which it operates, it allows for the retention of special ammunition. The explosive is placed in a feed slot which simply uses gravity and a latch to feed one at a time into the summoning chamber. This allows special ammunition to be fired at a faster rate than manual loading.
The device itself takes the shape of a large box, and can (with minor modifications to the circuits) be attached to any weapon. With slow firing weapons, this should push the rate of fire to the maximum the weapon is capable of. With weapons capable of firing faster, the multiple reserve summons allow for extremely rapid burst fire, with a significantly faster rate of fire afterwards.
The regulator is primarily designed with our R1's and lightning turrets in mind, but with groundwork to significantly improve larger munitions at a later date.
The device contains a medium aether gem for power, but can be attached to an external power source as well.
automatic fire will greatly increase the effectiveness of our aircraft, and our ground troops.
Revision 1 as weightight.
Revision 2 as a heavy armor using weightite and insulated armor.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 05, 2017, 10:39:44 am
It also doesn't seem to focus on fixing power usage and complexity, which were the main issues with the CAF1.
Maybe we should go all out - make a new CAF2 HA2. Most of the work goes into the CAF2 but some extra stuff is added to modernize the HA.
Post by: helmacon on September 05, 2017, 10:51:31 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 05, 2017, 11:11:19 am
We should consider making a design specializing in defense. Especially in city combat.
Or we should just invest in artillery. I don't think we can reliably remove their air advantage in one turn, so let's just make our artillery useful again. I'm thinking:
-Pneumatics for easy tracking of airborne targets.
-Included scaled-down Mk. 2 Reactor (considering we definitively know the power requirement of the HA1. And it's pretty relatively small. )
-KPD4 propellant.
-Integrated watered-down lucky strike?
-CAF2. Biggest part.
Post by: Gwolfski on September 05, 2017, 12:01:28 pm
Quote
NEXT YEAR WILL BE FOUGHT IN THE ARSTOTZKAN CAPITOL.??
Post by: VoidSlayer on September 05, 2017, 02:18:56 pm
They are not going to make the same mistake we did, turning to theoretical designs during the final push. They will no doubt develop something really powerful.
Smasher Shell
A new extreme range shell with a built in small aether reactor and KPD Mk.3 engine. The reactor and aerodynamics allows the shell to have effectively unlimited range at full muzzle velocity.
The reactor is designed to detonate, once the shell hits a target, and a powerful blast circuit is built into the nose of the shell and powered during flight as well.
The outside of the shell is made out of aerodynamic crystal with enough steel on the nose and inside to give the thing momentum to smash through the target before detonating.
A modified on board honest strike system is used to control the KPD Mk.3 engine, allowing the shell to effectively hit any target at any range.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 05, 2017, 02:20:40 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 05, 2017, 05:05:30 pm
Design: AS-HA2
Heavy Artillery
The HA2 is a glorious creation. The artillery of the future. Yet it's designed to be obtainable.
The HA2 is based on the HA1-Mundane, with numerous changes:
- [Trivial] An integrated smaller-scale Aether Reactor Mk.2 to power the cannon, CAF, and anything else that could need powering. Considering that we already know the power requirements of a HA1 to be muuuch lower than the power produced by an Expensive Aether Reactor, there should be considerable downscaling possible without sacrificing performance.
- [Trivial] A pneumatics system for quickly and easily aiming the cannon, mostly just taken from the one already used in the Lightning turret.
- [Easy] Implementation of the KPD4 as the propellant instead of 3x PSF-Cs. The KPD4 is already tried-and-proven and is much stronger than a measly 3x PSF-Cs. That and its minor directional capabilities should allow for easily harnessing this power while reducing recoil and strain on the barrel. Just slap the KPD4 in, change a few config settings in the circuitry, and bam. Brand new. Should just increase the range/power/etc. of the HA2.
- [Moderate] The CAF2 and main purpose of this design. The CAF2 is straightforward in its upgrades. The CAF1 is full of needless complexity. It's simply a fabricator unit glued onto a barrel. A fabricator unit contains enough circuitry to print the most complex crystal designs possible. Enough energy consumption to make the biggest ever crystal design we have available. Circuitry just to interpret the current inputted crystal design circuitry. We can cut out this excess. The CAF2 has the shell/bullet hardwired in the circuitry and is only big enough for just what it's making. It only needs to be as complex as a shell. It directs all power into making the projectile as fast as possible (much faster than the CAF1, hopefully), and the newfound simplicity of the circuitry should greatly reduce its size+complexity. Making a cheap and very fast more-energy-efficient (not that it needs to be particularly energy efficient - we do have the Reactor here) CAF.
- [Trivial] (Low Priority) "Weightite" - while working on the CAF2's hardwired crystal design, we pull some hacks on the design to increase the density of conjured crystal, making a new, somewhat heavier, variant of Crystal. To avoid unnecessary time spent developing this, Weightite only needs to be as good as an existing shell (better in range than a regular nonaeryodynamic shell with the recent aerodynamic upgrades).
TL;DR: We modernize the HA1, our artillery mainstay, while making the CAF2. The difficulty of the CAF2 (partially thanks to the revision we already spent on it) in a design plus the easy other parts mean it should be very possible. Then in a revision we undo their -2 debuff to range and begin winning in artillery and thus everything else.
Please do tell me if you genuinely think I'm being too ambitious. I personally think this is reasonable. Like I said, the CAF2 in a design shouldn't be particularly hard thanks to what we can do to fix it (which could theoretically be put in a Revision, but I just don't think evicted will let us do that balance-wise and even then it's not worth trying), and the rest of the additions are trivial.
The idea is to make artillery suddenly extremely relevant again while winning at the same time.
EDIT: Two things not included in this design - All-crystal Blastshells (extremely trivial) and implementation of the CAF2 in other guns. The first I'm considering putting on here because of how easy it should be (we literally can make all the components out of crystal easily already. It's more of a "just give the order" in my mind), but the second has traditionally been out of scope for this kind of thing despite its ease. Though I think artillery is important enough to be worth the HA2 instead of a universal CAF2. We can easily port the CAF2 universally in a revision.
(Same edit) Alternative idea. I'm very open to suggestions on this one. Not going to vote for it myself, but I'm just putting it out there.
Design: Arstotzkan Defense Grid
They have come to our cities. But we will not let them in.
The Arstotzkan Defense Grid is the first of its kind. Great towering Crystal walls shall be erected around Arstotzka. Crystal Glass will line the walls allowing our soldiers to easily peer out at hostiles. The walls will be littered with small deathholes from which the barrels of AS-HAC-1s peek out, surrounded by Crystal Glass for viewing. Occasional Lightning turrets will even dot the top of the walls for defense against aerial assault. No Moskurger shall near the walls, and any rare damage shall be naturally regenerated before they can return.
Near the center of our city, the Defense Grid's command center will be located. Underground and heavily reinforced with Crystal and under heavy armed guard as well as AS-HAC-1s. Here, our best generals and officers will be provided with all the tactical information conceivably possible. Chambers filled with near-endless lines of Reactors here will be connected to the entire grid, powering it safely.
Above the Command Center lies a large airfield with many hangars and housing/organizing all the air vessels in the local Arstotzkan military.
A bit behind the walls are as many AS-HA1s (using the Mundane variety but without the Magegems that make it Expensive) as possible, each one connected to the grid and ensured to be usable by all soldiers. Each and every HA1 will be equipped with HonestStrike no matter the cost. Adjacent Restless tracks circling the interior of the Wall will provide the HA1s with ammo around the clock.
Expense is of no concern. Effectiveness must be achieved at all costs.
Quote
DESIGN
0 - CAF Regulator (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556506#msg7556506):
0 - Smasher Shell (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556741#msg7556741):
1 - AS-HA2 "Valiant" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556886#msg7556886): Chiefwaffles
0 - Arstotzkan Defense Grid (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556886#msg7556886):
Post by: FallacyofUrist on September 05, 2017, 05:47:10 pm
If you put up the Firestorm, I'll vote it.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 05, 2017, 06:14:01 pm
1.) It relies on air superiority. While we have enough control in the air for a bomber to be effective, it wouldn't be as effective as it could be. Whereas we have more than enough air coverage to shield our artillery from air attacks (and also AS-HA1s).
2.) The CAF is important enough that leaving it to a Revision is an iffy choice. Probably possible, but is it the best idea?
3.) We're already almost equal artillery-wise, just because of aerodynamic shells. The HA1 matches Moskurg's accurate ranges. Another upgrade to artillery (even without undoing the debuff) and we start beating them in artillery again.
Design: ASAF-B49 "Firestorm"
The Firestorm is a high-altitude long-deployment bomber aircraft.
The craft is straightforward in hull. At the front is a small 100% Crystal Glass cockpit for maximum visibility. A basic bombing sight is included, but not of huge importance (we'll get to that later). The cockpit has limited storage for supplies for the pilot. Behind the cockpit is the Reactor then the bomb bay. There is no turret or other crewmember, as the B49 Firestorm should either be too high up to be reached by enemies or escorted by Lightnings.
Spoiler: Fluff (click to show/hide)
- [Easy] Atmospheric Regulator Circuit & KPD5 - Tweak our Mist/Fog/whatever spells into passive circuitry that maintains the atmospheric levels in a given area. Use in the pilot's cockpit and integrate with the KPD (making the "KPD5", the ARC is the only difference) in order to enable flight regardless of atmosphere and thus high-altitude flight.
- [Easy] Watered-down HonestStrike - We include a lower-power and simpler-in-circuitry form of HonestStrike. Just enough so that the bombs tend to hit targets over missing. No crazy critical strikes or landing on top of Moskurger infantry or hitting the only weak spot or hitting the command tent. Just "tend to hit hostile targets".
- [Trivial] Blastgem - Just a maximum-supercharged solid-state Aethergem for maximum explosiveness. An upgrade over the Blastshell, which wasted mass/production capabilities on making non-explosive bits and propulsion and whatnot.
- [Moderate] Bomb Fabrication/Pseudo-CAF2 - The Bomb Bay only has space for a small amount of bombs. Instead of storing a large number of them, it fabricates them as needed (when there are open slots in the bomb bay). The tech is kind of the CAF2 - hardwire the crystal design in, and reduce complexity/power consumption ratios to only what's absolutely needed instead of building the Crystal Fabricator for extreme cases. Should make it viable (read: Expensive/Cheap) for use here, but would need more work to be an actual CAF2 for regular guns.
Post by: VoidSlayer on September 05, 2017, 06:30:18 pm
I don't really understand the point of having a crystal fabricator for the valiant. We do not have any supply line problems for our cannons. We should work on making a shell that is more accurate, longer range and more deadly if we want to upgrade the cannons.
It is not that the fabricator is ambitious, it is ambitious without any real benefit. If we put that on a tank/mobile artillery designed to operate away from supply lines, which could push the front forward, and push them back it might be useful.
What I really want is an upgrade of the protector to a full tank that actually works and then a revision of that into a personnel carrier. Then we revise the lightning turret to be able to shoot downwards.
Is there an issue with building full missiles right now? We can totally make unlimited range weapons with everything we have put together so far.
Post by: evictedSaint on September 05, 2017, 06:48:22 pm
Post by: helmacon on September 05, 2017, 07:01:05 pm
-snip-Is it finally time for the manticore?
Post by: FallacyofUrist on September 05, 2017, 08:38:49 pm
Quote
DESIGNA dedicated bomber, especially a high-altitude one they can't shoot or weather down(there's no air up there, how is your wind going to work?), is going to help us so much.
0 - CAF Regulator (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556506#msg7556506):
0 - Smasher Shell (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556741#msg7556741):
1 - AS-HA2 "Valiant" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556886#msg7556886): Chiefwaffles
0 - Arstotzkan Defense Grid (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556886#msg7556886):
2 - ASAF-B49 "Firestorm": Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
Also: indefinite flight, courtesy of Aethergems. Indefinite ammo, courtesy of CAF. The only limiting factor is the pilot. While we could improve the pilots by making them nocturnal cat people like I've been talking about, that's not necessary to have near-constant unstoppable bombing runs on Moskurg's capital(and possibly even the enemy design lab).
Seriously, this is awesome, their weather is useless at super-high altitudes like the Firestorm can climb to.
Post by: VoidSlayer on September 05, 2017, 09:02:01 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 05, 2017, 09:06:59 pm
Idea is to just put a simplified Lucky Strike which should mean the bombs tend to hit near targets. No "bomb hitting exact weak spot" and no "bomb landing on top of infantry", but just enough so well generally get positive hits.
Post by: VoidSlayer on September 05, 2017, 09:14:15 pm
Also you keep saying lucky strike, I'm watching you.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 05, 2017, 09:43:25 pm
Though I'm removing myself. I'd be happy if the design got in, but I still think the HA2 is the better option for aforementioned reasons. I may vote for the Firestorm if it's tied with another design though.
Quote
DESIGN
0 - CAF Regulator (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556506#msg7556506):
0 - Smasher Shell (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556741#msg7556741):
1 - AS-HA2 "Valiant" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556886#msg7556886): Chiefwaffles
0 - Arstotzkan Defense Grid (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556886#msg7556886):
2 - ASAF-B49 "Firestorm": FallacyofUrist, VoidSlayer
Post by: RAM on September 05, 2017, 10:04:50 pm
I genuinely think it to be too ambitious. In my experience you typically want one dramatic new item in a design and the rest should be rearranging things that already exist. This seems to be dramatic improvements to many things. Some of which may not be entirely pre-existing.Please do tell me if you genuinely think I'm being too ambitious.
- [Trivial] An integrated smaller-scale Aether Reactor Mk.2 to power the cannon, CAF, and anything else that could need powering. Considering that we already know the power requirements of a HA1 to be muuuch lower than the power produced by an Expensive Aether Reactor, there should be considerable downscaling possible without sacrificing performance.
- [Trivial] A pneumatics system for quickly and easily aiming the cannon, based on the one implemented in another cannon - the Lightning turret.
- [Easy] Implementation of the KPD4 as the propellant instead of 3x PSF-Cs. The KPD4 is already tried-and-proven and is much stronger than a measly 3x PSF-Cs. That and its minor directional capabilities should allow for easily harnessing this power while reducing recoil and strain on the barrel. Just slap the KPD4 in, change a few config settings in the circuitry, and bam. Brand new. Should just increase the range/power/etc. of the HA2.
- [Moderate] The CAF2 and main purpose of this design. The CAF2 is straightforward in its upgrades. The CAF1 is full of needless complexity. It's simply a fabricator unit glued onto a barrel. A fabricator unit contains enough circuitry to print the most complex crystal designs possible. Enough energy consumption to make the biggest ever crystal design we have available. Circuitry just to interpret the current inputted crystal design circuitry. We can cut out this excess. The CAF2 has the shell/bullet hardwired in the circuitry and is only big enough for just what it's making. It only needs to be as complex as a shell. It directs all power into making the projectile as fast as possible (much faster than the CAF1, hopefully), and the newfound simplicity of the circuitry should greatly reduce its size+complexity. Making a cheap and very fast more-energy-efficient (not that it needs to be particularly energy efficient - we do have the Reactor here) CAF.
- [Trivial] (Low Priority) "Weightite" - while working on the CAF2's hardwired crystal design, we pull some hacks on the design to increase the density of conjured crystal, making a new, heavier, variant of Crystal. To avoid unnecessary time spent developing this, Weightite only needs to be as good as an existing shell (better in range than a regular nonaeryodynamic shell with the recent aerodynamic upgrades).
I believe that a small reactor would be a revision of its own, so not trivial. The last I heard they were about the same volume as an HA1, although box-shaped so much smaller by dimensions. Probably a significant amount smaller but, well, it is only an 80mm gun last I heard, which is big but not crazy. So getting it small enough to be mounted on the gun directly seems much much much more than trivial. I imagine that you are looking for something man-portable, perhaps the size of a, umm, microwave oven? I could see a size reduction that dramatic being a bit much for a single revision. We are probably looking at a volume reduction to about 5%... It feels like something that could be the focus of a design and not get much else done.
The only pneumatics that I can find is on a door, and that is, like, a piston. It is a big jump in complexity to freely rotate a sphere, and I don't feel that pneumatics are particularly agile or precise. It feels like the wrong technology to use for turrets. It might be better to revisit steam-power and get some gear-work involved...
I see no evidence that K.P.D.4 is suited for sudden bursts of power. It is a little more powerful at lifting an aircraft than P.S.F.Cs on a per-second basis, but over the fraction-of-a-tenth-of-a-second that it propels a projectile? There is no evidence to suggest that any progress at al has been made there. There is also evidence that the drive covers a much larger area, so it is possible that it gains its additional power by deploying many spells in parallel rather than being more powerful over the same area. I am simply unaware of any improvement in raw power made by the propulsion efforts. It seems to me that all of the efforts were made in control, safety, and averaging the output. Given that a tube already provides control there is no gain from directing the forces. Given the limited space, the force will be deflected off of the bullet no matter what we do, so there will be losses regardless of how focused the force is, so there really is no gains there. Safety would be nice, but, again, it is an extremely quick explosive reaction, so the safety is all explicitly removed to make the thing work as a gun. Averaging the output is, well, mostly the polar opposite of what is wanted. There is something to be said for using it to continuously explode for as long as the bullet is in the pipe. Sort of like with those guns that had multiple firing chambers along the barrel... It would let more total force be applied, but the majority of it is put into constantly accelerating the bullet, which means getting your big values of force right at the beginning to not miss out on the opportunity. So basically it needs the full instantaneous force of 3 P.S.F.Cs right at the beginning to match the current performance, and we have seen no evidence that it can do that much. To improve performance it would need to maintain that for the full duration of the blast. At the moment, I would say that it would be generous to assume that it can generate 10 P.S.F.Cs per second, and I think that it would need to be ten times more powerful than that to be useful in that role.
K.P.D.4 is not "better" than P.S.F.C, it is "more controlled". We put a very large amount of effort into getting a high-explosive to work like a fuel. It has a lot of benefits but none of them apply to guns. So I would say that this is again non-trivial because it is asking for an order of magnitude improvement. But I could be wrong. If you can find a source that suggests that an eighty millimetre diameter circle of K.P.D.4 can output as much force as 3 simultaneous P.S.F.Cs in the same timeframe as the fireballs can push a bullet a short ways into a rifle barrel the I will concede that we already have enough technology there to see improved firearm performance. I honestly do not know for certain, but my impression is that it is much less than that.
The C.A.F. uses power. We already know that Mundanes are slow. A reactor would help, but it is being crippled by the size reduction, so it is unwise to rely upon a large increase in power, and we could probably revise the reactors to be plugged into mundanes as they are with some cables and just wheeling some reactors into the field with the Mundanes. Ut may well be much faster, but given that it is an untested change to the power-source and an increase in power requirements, it really isn't reliable to expect rate-of-fire increases. Also, we know that crystals don't fly so well, the revised air-repellant crystals may be enough to get the range. Possibly better, if they really do repel the air it could completely negate the defensive spells(unless that would be a hard-counter, but if complete immunity to our frost towers and fire spells for all of their vehicles and armoured soldiers isn't a hard counter than this shouldn't be either.) and thus fully return our original range(minus one from crystals being too light and plus one from wind being a normal factor in accuracy regardless of magic).
It feels a bit silly to name crystals that are as heavy as iron when we already have crystals that are, like, 60% as heavy as iron. It is just a revision applied to excise the primary advantage that crystals have. There is nothing dramatic here, and getting performance back to original is, well, it is low-impact, which is good for getting things working right away, but it has terrible potential. At 8-or-so times the density of water, it is pretty much redundant, we may as well try to summon lead instead(Which might be a good idea. Lead into gold is one of the classical alchemical goals. Lead should be intrinsically easy to magic-up due to its inherent low-value from a classical magic perspective...). Weightite has always been envisaged as being dramatically heavier. Well above the scope of a solid mass as one would expect in a black-hole, so pathetically low-density in an absolute sense, but it would be taking advantage of magic to give us something that makes depleted uranium shells cry in shame. Mix it up with some dematerialising sabot rounds and we would open up a massive avenue for future expansion. Something that dense could laugh off most of the friction that is currently plaguing our range. It would, however, require more force to push it. I really ought to put in some detail about smaller barrels and thicker walls and more explosion spells, but I kind of just hope that the engineers are not complete robots and would sort of figure that stuff out and save of, well, writing endless paragraphs of description... We fundamentally need an excuse to have our bullets summoned faster. And not just a little faster but lots faster. Summoning all of our crystals faster would be nice, but if we can say that the complexity of crystals was slowing the summoning process then we can get much faster summoning by giving up on the crystal advantages of high strength for its density and wind resistance. I suspect that the regeneration is a component of the process used to summon it rather than the crystal itself, but that might go too. It would be sad to lose this stuff, but it is only of minor value for the purposes of bullets, whereas density is the primary factor and summoning them ten times as quickly by making sacrifices would be more practical than upgrading our crystal fabrication which is already highly optimised.
In short I suspect the following:
: the size reduction of the reactor is too severe to be considered trivial. And even at dramatically reduced size it would likely be a significant added burden to construction, mobilisation, and operation of the gun.
: our pneumatics are not that developed and are ill-suited to aiming a gun. Getting something sufficient to be an improvement would likely be nontrivial and steam or K.P.D. operating a mechanical system would probably be better.
: K.P.D.4 is not any more powerful than existing methods within the context of propelling bullets out of a gun. If my assumptions are correct then making it so would be very difficult. Developing something new using the experience gained might be the only practical way of seeing any improvement here, maybe some sort of instantaneous pressure adjustment or something... But, again, new stuff is difficult...
: C.A.F. is not necessarily an upgrade. Especially when the power supply is untested in its new form. Ensuring that it be an upgrade would require shoring up multiple design threads(C.A.F., aerophobic crystal, reduced reactor), which would likely require a revision to get the disparate elements of the design to cooperate.
: iron is not a great bullet, and crystals are primarily good due to their low weight. It would be nice to improve our bullet fabrication in this way, but if we are going to invest a name into it, then it should be a dramatic shift. Also, crystals are kind of inherently bad bullets due to being crystals. Making crystals heavier is really difficult because they are crystals. I am not sure what the heaviest crystal in the world is, but I suspect that our crystals are already well beyond it. Finally, crystals tend to shatter, which is about the worst thing that a bullet can do unless you want it to turn into shrapnel, which can be really good, but they have this troubling tendency to shatter outside of the armour and then the shards suddenly have difficult with penetration. Harder is better, but everything smooshes at those speeds, and smooshing into a puddle is better than smooshing into bits. But this bit does genuinely seems trivial as written!
Advice:
: Armour+mobilise the existing reactors and transfer power, either using magems or cables or Tesla Transference.
: Use a hand-operated crank-and-gear system(which we are presumably already using), but replace the "hand-operated" with magic steam or pressure systems. I would stick to mechanisms to hold it in place rather than messing with sustained pressurisation and pneumatics that, unlike steam, do not lose fluid, will tend to do poorly if you try to rotate something much. Pneumatics is good at pushing and pulling but kind of bad as spinning and rotating.
: Don't change much with the propellant unless it is the focus of the design.
: Summon common lead instead of crystals. Or gold. One of the two is bound to be easy to summon...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 05, 2017, 10:42:48 pm
Spoiler: Power Consumption/Generation (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Pneumatics (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: KPD4 as Propellant (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: CAF (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Bullet Material (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Summoning Other Materials (click to show/hide)
Post by: Andres on September 06, 2017, 01:34:25 am
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on September 06, 2017, 03:12:37 am
Note: required assumption, we are capable of summoning antimagic charms, upon which our magems are based.
Metaconjuration: Conjbustion
Quote
The conjbustion spell is a combination of four elements: Summon Crystal Lance/webs, Fireball, Antimagic Charms. These are extremely familiar disciplines from which a myriad of other spellwork has been extracted.
The summoning of webs is known to occur at a distance in order to bind retreating foes. It is simple to conjure crystals, and crystals are known to absorb magic when properly configured. Flames burn... By combining the magical suction of a crystal, it is easy to convert a flame to burn magic, it is a simple matter of directing the magic into the flames as fuel, and fires are all too willing to burn anything that they can grasp. Structuring the flames to absorb the magic is a bit of a trick, but with mathemagics being spawned by crystalline summoning, and so very much study occurring upon antimagic charms and their derivatives, it is should be simple to extract the precise signature of magical absorption, and while converting that from a crystal spell to a flame spell is a challenge, it is very much within flame's nature to absorb, and crystals and flames share a fascination with illumination and patterns, so the modification should not be that difficult. Thus it should not be so difficult to produce a flame that will spread to all things magical and burn until that magic is depleted. It is, in many ways similar to channelled fog, being a spell that consumes magic long after being cast, but so very much more insistent... Directing magic upon it would only serve to spread the flames to whomever made the attempt, mortal means of extinguishing would have little effect when the flames do not depend upon mortal fuel and magic burns by will in place of heat, and directing antimagic upon magical devices will not permit them to function. A single spark in a Kegger carpet-hold should spell doom for the whole vessel, regardless of size, whether the magic burns dry or is snuffed by antimagic, the craft's buoyancy will expire and it will perish upon the ground.
The difficult part is to get such a spell into the enemy's demesne. The matter of that is rather more complicated, and yet... We have conjured many things: Self-deterministic wasps, complex and terrain-adhering webs, all manner of magically active crystals... It is not so great a jump to conjure magic itself, especially if it is given a specific form... Thus, it should be possible for us to conjure spells, at a distance, at a specific point, with no need to traverse the intervening space. Thus is the entirely new, yet magnificently familiar field of metaconjuration. To conjure spells and purely magical constructs. For both conjuration and free-flung spells are both so very practised.
The design of the spell is hoped to be quite practical as far as such things can be. To form the bulk of the spell in advance and hold it within one's hands. then to clap one's hands together to finalise the spell's substance, and then to direct it's destination by pointing and willing. The unfortunate victim will then be instantly subjected to a spark of magical consumption that will not rest until the victim is consumed. It should be quite a simple matter to cast such magics from the relative safety of a protector or lightning as all that is required is knowledge of the subject's location, vision of the target should be sufficient. And with a single spark spelling doom for whatever it strikes, be it a mage, airship, or skiff, and striking with the speed of sight, there should be precious few things that can endure such an attack.
Post by: Kadzar on September 06, 2017, 08:55:06 am
but such a thing could be done in a revision and might work with this design.
Quote
DESIGN
0 - CAF Regulator (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556506#msg7556506):
0 - Smasher Shell (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556741#msg7556741):
2 - AS-HA2 "Valiant" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556886#msg7556886): Chiefwaffles, Kadzar
0 - Arstotzkan Defense Grid (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556886#msg7556886):
2 - ASAF-B49 "Firestorm": FallacyofUrist, VoidSlayer
Post by: Gwolfski on September 06, 2017, 10:29:14 am
Quote
DESIGN
0 - CAF Regulator (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556506#msg7556506):
0 - Smasher Shell (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556741#msg7556741):
3 - AS-HA2 "Valiant" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556886#msg7556886): Chiefwaffles, Kadzar, Gwolfski
0 - Arstotzkan Defense Grid (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556886#msg7556886):
2 - ASAF-B49 "Firestorm": FallacyofUrist, VoidSlayer
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 06, 2017, 10:42:29 am
Though I have two questions in particular:
- Should I include Blastshell capability in the CAF2 of the HA2? If not we can revise a new upgraded 100% crystal Blastshell. Swap Magegems for Aethergems, remove Blastball detonation in favor of Aethergems detonation, make it makeable by the CAF2. But it'd use a revision.
- Are there any parts of the HA2 that people think are too hard/complex compared to their benefit which I should take out?
Post by: evictedSaint on September 07, 2017, 02:17:30 pm
Post by: helmacon on September 07, 2017, 03:55:41 pm
QuoteDESIGN
0 - CAF Regulator (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556506#msg7556506):
0 - Smasher Shell (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556741#msg7556741):
3 - AS-HA2 "Valiant" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556886#msg7556886): Chiefwaffles, Kadzar, Gwolfski
0 - Arstotzkan Defense Grid (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556886#msg7556886):
3 - ASAF-B49 "Firestorm": FallacyofUrist, VoidSlayer, helmacon
Post by: evictedSaint on September 07, 2017, 04:28:40 pm
Post by: RAM on September 07, 2017, 04:43:48 pm
Quote
DESIGNMeh, I wanna see if that atmospheric thing is possible.
0 - CAF Regulator (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556506#msg7556506):
0 - Smasher Shell (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556741#msg7556741):
3 - AS-HA2 "Valiant" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556886#msg7556886): Chiefwaffles, Kadzar, Gwolfski
0 - Arstotzkan Defense Grid (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556886#msg7556886):
4 - ASAF-B49 "Firestorm": FallacyofUrist, VoidSlayer, helmacon, RAM
Post by: andrea on September 07, 2017, 04:47:23 pm
And I am getting convinced by the HA2.QuoteDESIGNMeh, I wanna see if that atmospheric thing is possible.
0 - CAF Regulator (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556506#msg7556506):
0 - Smasher Shell (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556741#msg7556741):
4 - AS-HA2 "Valiant" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556886#msg7556886): Chiefwaffles, Kadzar, Gwolfski, Andrea
0 - Arstotzkan Defense Grid (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7556886#msg7556886):
4 - ASAF-B49 "Firestorm": FallacyofUrist, VoidSlayer, helmacon, RAM
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 07, 2017, 04:50:52 pm
The HA2:
-Definitively makes the CAF2. The bomber does not.
-Can much more easily react. Bombers are isolated from communication and sorties cannot easily be assembled due to Moskurger wind magic. Then the Bomber has to still launch, go over to enemy lines, then fire.
-Will outrange Moskurger artillery and will thus give us a great advantage. Bombers can be shot down. Outranging artillery can just sit in the same place 24/7 while shelling enemy lines.
-Reduces our artillery dependence on mages. (The HA1-b is Expensive and fires once per three minutes.)
-Modernizes our artillery, which is in sore need of an update.
-Is better as a defensive weapon versus the bomber. We can just outrange them and shell them constantly versus the more offensive-oriented bomber. We're going to be defending our capital this turn.
Post by: helmacon on September 07, 2017, 05:05:27 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 07, 2017, 05:13:25 pm
-Reactor: Actually trivial. The Reactor is easy to downscale (just remove a couple wheels and make a smaller shell) and right now it's "plug n' play" for integration.
-Pneumatics: Trivial, again. It's just the pneumatics system that we already developed for the exact purpose of moving around guns - the Lightning turret. We just take that pneumatics system and put it in here.
-KPD: Not as trivial, but still fairly easy. Benefits have already been stated, but it's just putting the KPD circuitry and changing some settings. The HA1 is already designed for Blastballs anyways, and the KPD4 is derived from Blastballs.
-CAF2: Not easy, but by far the main focus of the entire design.
Post by: evictedSaint on September 07, 2017, 06:03:12 pm
Design: ASAF-B49 "Firestorm" [2, 6-1, 2]
The Arstotzkan Air Force Bomber 949 "Firestorm" fills the role missing from the current air fleet. Slightly smaller than a Lightning, the Firestorm features a bubble canopy for the pilot that wraps around from his head to his feet. A crude cross-hairs is painted on the floor as a bomb sight, but is largely just for show. A standard set of spherical controls allows the pilot to pitch, roll, and accelerate the aircraft, and a set of short, stubby wings and tail allow the craft better turning while moving forward, as we'd discovered with the Valkyrie. The craft is propelled by a KPD4 propulsion spell-array, which in turn is powered by a single Aether Reactor. The craft is entirely unarmored and any unnecessary weight is stripped free, allowing unprecedented heights to be reached. The Firestorm is the first aircraft capable of flying above cloud cover.
The cockpit features a sealing hatch and a small circuit-controlled one-way air valve to ensure the compartment is air-tight. A slight modification to our channeled mist spell - made easy thanks to our impressive knowledge of conjuration magic - allows it to produce breathable air rather than mist. This provides the pilot with air, and the one-way valve keeps the air pressure at an acceptable level for human life.
The "bomb bay" is a circuit array borrowed from the crystalworks that is hard-wired to produce "blastgems" - another new invention necessitated by this design. It is a crystalline sphere that features a very simple conjuration system contained within, along with a crystal magegem charged with enough power drawn from the reactor to produce a blastball. The bomb is on a set timer that cannot be changed once the Firestorm has left the ground - usually it will be set for the same amount of time it takes the sphere to fall from max height to the ground below.
The bombs have a rather small radius, compared to our HA1 artillery shells. It is about comparable to the blast radius of Moskurgs hand grenades, and rivals it in lethality. Sadly, we ran out of time trying to figure out how to incorporate the HonestStrike module into a non-gun design, so the bombing zone below the craft is rather widely dispersed and can't be used for much more than bombing cities or city-sized targets. Furthermore, we discover that at high altitudes ice tends to form on the Firestorm aircraft. This ice formation obscures vision, slowly decreases the effectiveness of the KPD4, and can cause the blastgem manufacturing system to jam. A jammed blastgem system will invariably cripple the craft, preventing furthering bombing action. The small explosive power of the blastgem is usually unable to completely knock out the Aether Reactor, at least, and though the craft will be unable to continue fighting without repairs the pilot will usually be able to limp home. Expensive.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 07, 2017, 06:20:37 pm
Anyways. This is essential. It'd allow our artillery to outrange theirs again.
Revision: Starshell (Blastshell M.2)
The Blastshell M.2 "Starshell" is a straightforward modernization of the Blastshell.
First, we just retrofit in one-size-bigger supercharged Aethergems (which is possible since the Blastshell was made before the cost of ____gems went down) to replace the Magegems if size permits. Otherwise we just do same-size Aethergems.
We replace the propulsion with a standard KPD2. The current cup-based Blastball propulsion system should be easy to adapt to the nozzle-based KPD (which is heavily derived from Blastballs) system.
The Aethergems should enhance explosive capabilities just by being present, due to their natural volatility. This isn't a necessity of the revision in any way and shouldn't be actively pursued - it's just a nice side-bonus we can reasonably expect.
The nature of the Aethergems and the KPD2 should allow for effectively limitless powered flight and therefore massively increased range. The Starshell, naturally benefitting from the new aerodynamics, shouldn't suffer the same kind of accuracy penalties acquired through powered flight that the Blastshell M.1 experienced.
Quote
REVISION 1
1 - Blastshell M.2: Chiefwaffles
Post by: andrea on September 07, 2017, 06:33:29 pm
Quote
REVISION 1
2 - Blastshell M.2: Chiefwaffles, Andrea
Post by: FallacyofUrist on September 07, 2017, 06:40:57 pm
Quote from: Votes
REVISION 1
2 - Blastshell M.2: Chiefwaffles, Andrea, (FallacyofUrist: Conditional on name change to Rocketshells)
Post by: Roboson on September 07, 2017, 06:50:42 pm
Edit: a short summary, not like an everything that's happened in the last like 100 pages lol, just enough to get my bearings.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on September 07, 2017, 06:53:58 pm
Post by: andrea on September 07, 2017, 06:57:24 pm
Post by: Roboson on September 07, 2017, 07:11:27 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 07, 2017, 07:15:33 pm
It's complicated.
Both sides have gone magitech. Arstotzka more-so. We both developed artillery. Arstotzka has ~20th century artillery powered using magic while Moskurg has railguns (which are okay) and ballistae (which we obsoleted with our artillery). Both sides have an airforce - we have a combat transport craft, a gunship/fighter, and now a lame bomber. Moskurg has airships and flying canoes(?) using primitive jet engines. While Arstotzka powers our aircraft via continuous controlled explosions.
We also have guns.
Moskurg started winning due to destroying us in the air game, airborne artillery, and using their weather magic to decrease the range of our artillery. Eventually we matched them in the air game (though the exact status of that is currently disputed), and for reasons largely unknown to me they're still advancing.
@FallacyofUrist: I'm okay with a new name if the prefix is one syllable. "Rocket" is two syllables, which makes it unacceptable.
Also, possible revision. The contingency plan. If anyone has a better idea to create supernatural cold, please do submit it.
Revision: Aetherfrost
The Frost Tower. An artifact of older times. Numerous are even visible from Arstotzka city itself. But they lie dormant, rendered useless by Moskurger armor. Climate-controlled armor immune to temperature.
But since then we have improved so much. We can harness our knowledge of magic to once again weaponize these towers. Magineers will be sent to the local Arstotzkan towers to re-activate them with modern technology and improvements, making them useful once again.
Aetherfrost is the result of combining our knowledge of the Aether with our knowledge of the cold. By using the same technique that Aethergems use to connect to the pervasive Aether, we can infuse the entire area with cold. No amount of armor or insulation, however climate-controlled it is, will save them. The circuits in the Towers shall be worked on with this technique, making the Towers of Frost into Towers of Aetherfrost.
Aetherfrost will likely affect us as well. We will lose men to the cold, yes. But Arstotzkans are more naturally resistant to the cold than Moskurgers, giving us the edge. Furthermore, we hope that as Aethergems work by drawing power from the Aether, Aetherfrost's effects are diminished near Aethergems and thus our forces should hopefully receive a much lesser version of Aetherfrost. But ultimately, this is nothing but a hope.
TL;DR: Use our knowledge of the Aether, combine it with our extensive Frost Tower/cold magic experience to make the Frost Towers spread a supernatural "Aetherfrost" instead of just decreasing the temperature regularly. Aetherfrost, being supernatural, should bypass any kind of insulation/temperature-control/etc.. Arstotzkans will likely be affected to, but their natural resistance to frost should help and hopefully Aethergems, taking power from the Aether, should reduce the local effect of Aetherfrost.
Post by: FallacyofUrist on September 07, 2017, 07:24:56 pm
As for alternative names... Starshells? Short for Shooting Star Shells?
Post by: Andres on September 07, 2017, 08:37:08 pm
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on September 07, 2017, 09:10:58 pm
The Firestorm doesn't work because it cannot differentiate enemies. Artillery, obviously, would be worse, as the Firstorm can still just go to a lower altitude to improve its aim and completely suppress the nonexistant enemy ground forces that are somehow overwhelming us with their insubstantial menace that destroys our crystal armour and A.P.C.s with halberds.
Combine Honest Strike or whatever it is named plus aerodynamics from the aerophobic crystals, rifled barrels, aerodynamic shell shapes, various aircraft... We give or bombs little fins and a luck-spell and maybe a lucky streamer or a propulsion spell and they will naturally veer into enemies. This has been explained in various proposals from various people but it really doesn't matter, we got antimagic resistant circuits from "antimagic resistant circuits", we have enough for seeking bombs. I doubt it will be difficult to get something that can consistently fall onto enemies if there are any enemies within, say, a 20 degree wind-adjusted cone directly under the craft. This would give us something that could consistently blow up ground forces as they move from house to house, rather than levelling a whole suburb and having enemies climb out of the rubble...
Reflexive regeneration (Rrrrargh!)
Our crystals regenerate, but too slowly to survive repeated lightning strikes. Lightning, it seems, contains a great deal of energy. We have a great deal of experience in converting energy so we are attempting to have crystals store much of the force of an impact in the form of potential regeneration, which is then released in the form of massively accelerated regeneration. While this won't do anything if the whole structure is shattered in a single blow, it should allow a near instantaneous recovery from smaller blows, up to the amount of energy that was absorbed. We worry about the ability to absorb kinetic and thermal attacks which will likely see only minor repair of the damage that they inflict, but electricity seems to have a natural affinity for being converted into other energy forms, so a near-total-and-instantaneous repair of lightning damage should be possible, and the more affinity that the lightning has for our crystals, the more easily it will be absorbed into the regeneration matrix.
Crystals Conferred Accelerated Regeneration by Power (Something's fishy...)
We make the crystal regeneration accelerate when magic is applied, allowing us to near-instantly repair damage by shovelling boatloads of magic into it.
This is more modest than reflexive regeneration and potentially more powerful if our craft can afford to divert reactor/mage output into staying alive. And a mage in such armour would be resilient... Doesn't help much against their coilguns mind...
Both of the winning proposals were pretty terrible. Both amounted to dropping bombs on aircraft. Still, we have air-control of a fashion now... I guess I should do that...
Resiliant! (Say "resilient" but think "Valiant"...)
The Resiliant! is a revision of protectors to incorporate new technology. Reactors are installed, cutting into passenger space but who cares? An atmospheric control is established to allow it to be completely sealed against incoming gases to stop ambient heat from entering. K.P.D. is included to act as suspension to stop the breakdowns and the design includes far more crystal now along with the latest of propulsion technologies invoked to improve the performance of the enegine(opposing K.P.D.4s can oscillate between pushing each other apart or pulling each other together based upon positional shifts in circuitry. With all of the cylinders pushing constantly like this it should be more powerful than cycling explosions in one cylinder at a time.) The powered suspension should make it effectively lighter and years of observation of its field performance should allow us to revise out the problems that were causing it to break down. Incorporate the latest in turret technology to improve the main gun and replace the HAC-1 with an actual Lightning turret.
Post by: Kadzar on September 07, 2017, 10:16:31 pm
Quote from: Votes
REVISION 1
3 - Blastshell M.2: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561050#msg7561050) Chiefwaffles, Andrea, (FallacyofUrist: Conditional on name change to Rocketshells), Kadzar
Post by: VoidSlayer on September 08, 2017, 02:19:26 am
We made a high altitude bomber, we need to make it a useful high altitude bomber.
Revision: Trust Fall Targeting System
We revise the Firestorm to have bombs fall out of a short tube, like a cannon, and fix a modified honest strike circuit to the tube. A dedicated bomb dropper then drops the bombs when he thinks a target is under it thanks to a clear crystal crosshair embedded in the bottom of the vessel to allow sight of the ground. Flare targeting is also possible with bombs dropped where a flair can be seen through any cloud cover.
Post by: VoidSlayer on September 08, 2017, 02:21:15 am
Post by: RAM on September 08, 2017, 03:24:20 am
evictedSaint! Can we get a confirmation that if the only effect of a revision was range(say, hypothetically, a bullet that is less affected by gravity) that it would not increase the current range at which our longest-range artillery is effective? I feel that this is just clarifying things that we have seen in battle reports. We know that wind is blowing them of-course but it is unclear if it is headwinds blowing them back or blowing them down or if it is vortices turning them around or wind spirits making them stop to fill out a questionnaire and sapping away their precious flight-time... Given what we have already observed I feel that we would know if a pure increase in flight distance would resist the defences that we have observed.
Post by: andrea on September 08, 2017, 03:34:33 am
even with honest strike, we can expect to have trouble to pinpoint targets to the accuracy needed. Personally, I think we need to go big in size or in number.
I'll draft a couple proposals, names are placeholders.
Air dropped bomb
This substitutes the current bombs used by the firestorm. it is an upscaled blastgem slightly bigger than a blastshell, with significantly more explosive power due to not needing to add propulsion.
In addition to the size change, the other modification is the shape of the shell. No longer a simple sphere, now it uses the lessons learned from our aerodynamic shells to drop straighter toward the ground, improving accuracy.
Higher accuracy and bigger blast size should help greatly in making this an effective weapon.
or
Multiple area covering bomblet
Accuracy from the clouds is hard. The trick is not needing it. Instead of dropping a single grenade, the firestorm now drops an hail of many bomblets, a bit smaller than the current grenades. While the individual destructive power is lower, the spread of bomblets allows to cover a larger area. Aerodynamic knowledge is applied to the bomblet to reduce the spread size from "city" to "on the enemy side of the battlefield".
being able to carpet bomb an area should produce results even if we dont' have the required accuracy to pinpoint a single target. We just drop a lot around the entire thing and we will hit stuff.
@RAM having continuous thrust all the time, compared to just a big extra blast at the beginning, will surely increase speed. Plus, eliminating the impulsive propulsion of the current blastshell may improve accuracy on its own.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 08, 2017, 08:23:43 am
The enemy is immune to our frost stuff, their armor completely protects them, or at least mitigates it enough that I doubt it will have a big effect.I know.
That's why we make a revision to go bypass their armor.
Literally the entire point of Aetherfrost.
Post by: helmacon on September 08, 2017, 09:18:17 am
Post by: andrea on September 08, 2017, 09:23:35 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 08, 2017, 09:50:53 am
Though more accurate bombs could work. The small bombs could eliminate Moskurg forces without damaging our own stuff.
I was thinking of also scaling down HonestStrike if we do so. It will not be practical if it's still Very Expensive.
Post by: andrea on September 08, 2017, 10:03:27 am
Large bombs would deal with the remaining inaccuracy by 1) being heavier, therefore less swayed by winds and even more accurate 2)having bigger blast radius
Small bombs would deal with the remaining accuracy by being many over a large area, so it is more likely to hit something.
anyway, I am up for the new shell at this time, and haven't decided the next revision yet, but I thought it would be useful to bring those things out to discuss.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 08, 2017, 10:11:22 am
Bigger bombs make the Firestorm less useless, but ultimately you're just dropping bombs and hoping the enemy is in a 50-mile radius of your current location.
An Expensive integrated HonestStrike basically means the bombs are self-targeting. It'd still work with the small bombs because the smal bombs should hopefully directly hit their targets.
It'd have to be Expensive, though. HonestStrike is Very Expensive right now whichmeans we'd have like 3 bombers in the air dropping grenades every few minutes. That's not useful.
EDIT: Also I'm naming the Blastshell M.2 the "Starshell" for now. Lemme know if anyone has a better name idea.
Post by: andrea on September 08, 2017, 10:15:44 am
50 miles is a great exageration, but indeed it will be a problem in urban battles, compared to field battles.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 08, 2017, 10:24:24 am
Anyways, this could work as a second revision:
Revision: TrustStrike
The TrustStrike is a simplification of the HonestStrike. Whereas HonestStrike ensures supernatural accuracy, TrustStrike is a variant to guarantee accuracy, though not exactly to "the bullet pierces every vita organ through the armor's weak spot" levels.
TrustStrike is smaller and less power-consuming due to its simplification, and significantly cheaper - hopefully either Expensive or Cheap.
The top priority for TrustStrike is to integrate it to the Firestorm.
Post by: andrea on September 08, 2017, 10:25:36 am
Post by: helmacon on September 08, 2017, 10:29:07 am
What resource bonuses are we currently pulling from controlled territories?
Post by: evictedSaint on September 08, 2017, 11:48:49 am
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 08, 2017, 11:57:40 am
Like the Lightning. Which would really help us in the air. And much more.
This is based off of older revision ideas doing similar things and partially RAM's idea.
Revision: Reactive Crystal
With explosive lightning, Crystal is certainly less effective. But it isn't useless by any definition and is still very useful. Just not as much.
But by taking the standard energy conversion techniques we already have and revising it onto Crystal, we can greatly increase its resistance against sudden bursts of energy. Like lightning.
When struck with sudden energy - kinetic, electrical, anything - a large portion of the energy should be converted into magical energy and routed into Crystal Regeneration.
So Crystal should be much more resistant to blasts and explosions. As a large amount of the incoming energy is nullified and put to work repairing the damage done by the remaining uncovered energy.
Thanks to the Crystalworks, it should be extraordinarily easy switching all existing production processes over to Reactive Crystal.
TL;DR: Make Crystal naturally convert significant portions of sudden energy blasts (lightning, railgun, etc.) into magical energy to help regenerate.
EDIT:
Revision: AS-R1-G
Blastgems are small and straightforward. They have the perfect destruction. They'd make amazing grenades. They basically are grenades.
By simply expanding the barrel of the AS-R1, we can facilitate loading in Blastgems. The Blastgems would be made beforehand, and the Blastball propellant should be more than enough. We don't need to propel grenades Extreme-range.
TL;DR: A grenade launcher.
Revision: PKPD
(Passive KPD)
The PKPD is a powerless variant of the KPD. It doesn't use power, and simply limits a person's max velocity rather than adjusting it to extreme speeds.
The PKPD can and should be affixed to Combat Armor to allow for jumping from any height and deployment from high-altitude Valkyries both to the ground and on Moskurger airships.
TL;DR: A fancy parachute.
Also, Evicted, what happened to the Crystalworks bonus anyways?
Post by: helmacon on September 08, 2017, 12:30:49 pm
Post by: andrea on September 08, 2017, 12:48:21 pm
Post by: helmacon on September 08, 2017, 12:54:30 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on September 08, 2017, 03:25:33 pm
Post by: RAM on September 08, 2017, 03:51:10 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on September 08, 2017, 03:57:16 pm
Post by: RAM on September 08, 2017, 04:00:14 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 08, 2017, 04:14:08 pm
Accurate bomblets are better than friendly fire big-bombs, I'd say. I would like bigger bombs, I just think that the Starshell is a better choice than accurate big bombs.
Post by: RAM on September 08, 2017, 06:15:27 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 08, 2017, 06:45:18 pm
I meant that I think that regarding the next revision, choosing the Starshell is a better idea to me versus doing big bombs. Largely because it bypasses the range penalty (and maybe even then some), making our artillery useful again. And having superior artillery has consistently been the win/lose factor since artillery became a thing.
EDIT:
Revision: Blastgem M.2
The M.2 is a simple upgrade to the Blastgem.
This time, we've included a simple "mind" activation trigger on the gem. A person holding it in their hands simply wills it to activate. This is based off of the mage-circuit interaction, but is so low-power mundanes can do it too. Simply prime the timer, then throw it, and watch as your Moskurger foes explode!
Revision: Reactive KPD
The Reactive KPD is a modification to the KPD's logic circuitry, increasing its versatility in high-weather conditions. By programming its circuits to respond more intelligently to common Moskurger-caused weather conditions, we can greatly increase its reliability and versatility in air.
For example, in scenarios that'd normally capsize a Valkyrie/Lightning, the RKPD would instead compensate, keeping the craft upright. In other scenarios, where wind would blow the craft off course or make taking off/landing difficult, the RKPD can and will compensate to keep the craft on course. This can make quick landing/taking off for our Valkyries much more effective, as well as greatly facilitating sorties from aircraft and allowing for mid-air formations of Lightnings.
This is meant to draw on our existing experience regarding circuitry. Which should be quite extensive, of course.
TL;DR: Make the KPD's circuitry more, well, reactive. Make it automatically compensate for instability caused by weather and the like. Capsizings should be less frequent, landings/take-offs should be much quicker and easier for both the Valkyrie (combat landings/take-offs!) and Lightning, flying in formation should be possible, and sorties should be much more effective.
Post by: evictedSaint on September 09, 2017, 12:10:51 pm
Post by: andrea on September 09, 2017, 12:15:30 pm
I also think rocketshells would be a better name, but my vote doesn't hinge on it.Quote from: VotesREVISION 1
3 - Blastshell M.2: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561050#msg7561050) Chiefwaffles, Andrea, (FallacyofUrist: Conditional on name change to Rocketshells), Kadzar
votebox from a few pages ago. All this discussion is on the second revision, but I believe we are doing them one at a time?
Post by: VoidSlayer on September 09, 2017, 01:14:28 pm
Quote from: Votes
REVISION 1
3 - Blastshell M.2: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561050#msg7561050) Chiefwaffles, Andrea, (FallacyofUrist: Conditional on name change to Rocketshells), Kadzar
1 - Trust Fall Targeting System (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561375#msg7561375) VoidSlayer
Post by: RAM on September 09, 2017, 05:05:20 pm
Quote from: Votes
REVISION 1
3 - Blastshell M.2: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561050#msg7561050) Chiefwaffles, Andrea, (FallacyofUrist: Conditional on name change to Rocketshells), Kadzar
2 - Trust Fall Targeting System (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561375#msg7561375) VoidSlayer, RAM
Meh, could work, and my thing puts the aim on the bomb, which is super-nice for missile progress, but kind of ambitious...
Post by: helmacon on September 09, 2017, 05:06:17 pm
Quote from: VotesREVISION 1
3 - Blastshell M.2: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561050#msg7561050) Chiefwaffles, Andrea, (FallacyofUrist: Conditional on name change to Rocketshells), Kadzar
3 - Trust Fall Targeting System (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561375#msg7561375) VoidSlayer, RAM, helmacon
Meh, could work, and my thing puts the aim on the bomb, which is super-nice for missile progress, but kind of ambitious...
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 09, 2017, 05:07:49 pm
Quote from: Votes
REVISION 1Given Fallacy was the one who suggested "Starshell", I'm going to assume his conditional is satisfied.
4 - Starshell: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561050#msg7561050) Chiefwaffles, Andrea, FallacyofUrist, Kadzar
3 - Trust Fall Targeting System (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561375#msg7561375) VoidSlayer, RAM, helmacon
I would also like to point out that Trust Fall would still be Very Expensive.
Post by: Andres on September 09, 2017, 05:09:01 pm
Quote from: Votes
REVISION 1
4 - Blastshell M.2: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561050#msg7561050) Chiefwaffles, Andrea, (FallacyofUrist: Conditional on name change to Rocketshells), Kadzar, Andres
3 - Trust Fall Targeting System (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561375#msg7561375) VoidSlayer, RAM, helmacon
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 09, 2017, 05:10:38 pm
Quote from: Votes
REVISION 1
5 - Starshell: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561050#msg7561050) Chiefwaffles, Andrea, FallacyofUrist, Kadzar, Andres
3 - Trust Fall Targeting System (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561375#msg7561375) VoidSlayer, RAM, helmacon
Just re-adding the name change + Fallacy's fulfilled conditional.
Post by: helmacon on September 09, 2017, 05:13:56 pm
Quote from: Votes
REVISION 1
6 - Starshell: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561050#msg7561050) Chiefwaffles, Andrea, FallacyofUrist, Kadzar, Andres, helmacon
3 - Trust Fall Targeting System (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561375#msg7561375) VoidSlayer, RAM, helmacon
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 09, 2017, 07:17:17 pm
By tapping into our extensive experience regarding converting energy (like the Reactor safety circuitry), and our even-more-extensive knowledge and experience regarding the modification of Crystal, we can create a pretty effective revision to Crystal with hopefully ease.
We modify the structure of Crystal to naturally convert sudden blasts of energy to magical energy routed directly towards its regeneration properties. So if, say, a lightning blast hit crystal, then a significant (but not a majority) portion of that electrical energy gets naturally converted into magical energy which goes directly towards regeneration. If a tree from a tornado or a railgun shell hits the crystal, a portion of that kinetic energy will go towards regenerating the crystal.
Of course, it isn't 100% effective, but it should be fairly straightforward/easy to do given our extensive knowledge with both topics and should greatly improve the effectiveness/durability of crystal in all scenarios.
TL;DR: Make Crystal convert a portion of all incoming energy (kinetic, electrical) to magical energy to help regenerate. Draws from our extensive energy conversion/crystal modification experience.
This is a bit of a stretch, but we'd gain a huge advantage with viable wireless communications.
Please post if you have a better idea for wireless communication.
2nd Revision: Commgem
The Commgem is a modification to the Aethergem.
The Aethergem receives energy from the Aether, a theoretical dimension beyond ours. It does this using modified known technology - antimagic charms. We know how to transmit energy easily - it's how literally all of magic works.
So we readily know how to transmit and receive energy through the Aether. All that's left is to discern the fluctuations in Aether (this revision's focus) and turn those fluctuations into sound (the magic->sound circuit, discovered decades ago with the AM charm).
The Commgem is a modification to the A-sized Aethergem that handles this. It incorporates a standard Sound <-> Magic circuit and is tuned to the Aether on a slightly different "frequency" versus regular Aethergems. It should allow for wireless communication between holders of it.
TL;DR: Make a radio by adding a Magic <-> Sound circuit to an Aethergem.
Quote from: Votes
REVISION 1
6 - Starshell: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561050#msg7561050) Chiefwaffles, Andrea, FallacyofUrist, Kadzar, Andres, helmacon
3 - Trust Fall Targeting System (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561375#msg7561375) VoidSlayer, RAM, helmacon
REVISION 2
1 - Crystal Reactive Regeneration: Chiefwaffles
0 - Commgem:
Post by: Gwolfski on September 09, 2017, 08:04:53 pm
Quote from: VotesREVISION 1
7 - Starshell: (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561050#msg7561050) Chiefwaffles, Andrea, FallacyofUrist, Kadzar, Andres, helmacon, Gwolfski
3 - Trust Fall Targeting System (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561375#msg7561375) VoidSlayer, RAM, helmacon
Post by: evictedSaint on September 09, 2017, 11:01:22 pm
Essentially a KPD motor strapped to an artillery shell, the Starshell achieves very impressive range. An overcharged Aethergem is slotted into the nose and screwed in place. The gem is fitted with a safety and a shock sensor, which permits the flow of power from the gem to the connectors attached to the KPD nozzle on the rear of the shell. When armed and fired, the shell activates the KPD and allows us to achieve two additional ranges, all the way out to BLOS+2. This is one more than Moskurgs ground-based artillery, and two more than their accurate range.
The explosive capabilities of the shell are slightly less than that of our existing blast shells, but they are not appreciably more expensive.
Post by: Andres on September 09, 2017, 11:07:02 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on September 09, 2017, 11:08:49 pm
Post by: VoidSlayer on September 09, 2017, 11:24:22 pm
Make the undercarriage out of steel or crystal, whichever is better for carrying it, and we can ride out and destroy the enemy.
Otherwise, get honest strike on our new BOS+2 artillery shells.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 09, 2017, 11:40:22 pm
Also @VoidSlayer: This is fighting from our city. I think the Valkyrie can handle sorties. We should focus on making sure our infantry can do well regardless of transport.
Making Crystal better will help our airforce, and our combat armor-wearing infantry, and basically everything. Because everything is made out of Crystal.
The Valkyrie should lose its "Flying Coffin" nickname and become much more versatile in combat landings and take-offs. The Lightning should do much better in fights due to increased survivability. Crystalclads should do better I guess (especially with Starshells!). Our Infantry should become almost invulnerable in the field if this goes well. They're already completely clad in crystal, after all.
Revision: Crystal Subconjuration
We currently are making Crystal using crude ways first devised decades ago. Since then, we have made extreme breakthroughs in Mathemagics and Crystal Precision (recently improved further with Aerophobic
So let's make use of those many breakthroughs.
By refining the Mathemagics involved and applying the increased precision, we can exert much more control over the structure of crystal. The new field of "Subconjuration" involves studying conjuring beyond what the visible eye can see. We may not be able to see to this point, but we can observe its effects and our Mathemagics/Crystal Precision don't require visibility to work.
Basically, we're simply making use of our precision manufacturing techniques and breakthroughs in mathemagics to change the structure of the crystal in order to make it stronger and more durable. One possible way to accomplish this is arranging fault lines so fractures have a much harder time propagating or any other method. Arranging the crystalline structure so that different layers have different orientation, the fracture is forced to propagate through longer distances or unoptimal places absorbing much more energy.
By refining Crystal at this level, we can significantly increase its strength. All Crystal should become much stronger and durable to damage.
This should be a significantly easier revision as it's applying known technology/methods to a material that we have decades of experience with and have modified to different effects many times before.
TL;DR: Make Crystal stronger by applying Mathemagics + Crystal Precision (especially from Aerophobic
TL;DR TL;DR: Make Crystal stronger/better.
Quote
REVISION 2
1 - Crystal Subconjuration: Chiefwaffles
Post by: Andres on September 09, 2017, 11:46:01 pm
Quote
REVISION 2
2 - Crystal Subconjuration: Chiefwaffles, Andres
This will do good not just for our infantry, but for any vehicle made out of crystal as it will increase their durability as well. Our Valkyries and our Lightnings will be made more durable, making them better. Our ships would gain a great advance on the seas as well due to being harder to destroy.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on September 10, 2017, 01:44:19 am
Quote from: final revision
0 ChiefwafflesAetherfrost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561119#msg7561119):
1 *Some sort of bombing upgrade for furstorms: RAM
0 -RAMBlasteyes (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561200#msg7561200):
1 -VoidSlayerTrust Fall Targeting System (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561375#msg7561375): RAM
1 -andreaAir dropped bomb (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561398#msg7561398): RAM
0 -andreaMultiple area covering bomblet (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561398#msg7561398):
1 *Some sort of resiliency upgrade to crystals: RAM
0 -RAMReflexive regeneration (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561200#msg7561200):
1 -RAMCrystals Conferred Accelerated Regeneration by Power (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561200#msg7561200): RAM
0 -ChiefwafflesReactive Crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561680#msg7561680):
0 -ChiefwafflesCrystal Reactive Regeneration (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7562943#msg7562943):
2 -ChiefwafflesCrystal Subconjuration (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7563112#msg7563112): Chiefwaffles, Andres
1 RAMResiliant! (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561200#msg7561200): RAM
0 ChiefwafflesTrustStrike (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561606#msg7561606):
0 ChiefwafflesAS-R1-G (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561680#msg7561680):
0 ChiefwafflesPKPD (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561680#msg7561680):
0 ChiefwafflesBlastgem M.2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7562003#msg7562003):
0 ChiefwafflesReactive KPD (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7562003#msg7562003):
0 ChiefwafflesCommgem (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7562943#msg7562943):
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 10, 2017, 01:55:22 am
This is just an attempt to keep it as legible as possible.
Quote
REVISION 2
1 - (VoidSlayer) Trust Fall Targeting System (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561375#msg7561375): RAM
1 - (Andrea) Air dropped bomb (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561398#msg7561398): RAM
0 - (Andrea) Multiple area covering bomblet (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561398#msg7561398):
0 - (RAM) Blasteyes (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561200#msg7561200):
0 - (RAM) Reflexive regeneration (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561200#msg7561200):
1 - (RAM) Crystals Conferred Accelerated Regeneration by Power (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561200#msg7561200): RAM
1 - (RAM) Resiliant! (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561200#msg7561200): RAM
2 - Crystal Subconjuration (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7563112#msg7563112): Chiefwaffles, Andres
REVISION REQUESTS
RAM: "Some sort of bombing upgrade for Firestorms"
RAM: "Some sort of resiliency upgrade to Crystal"
I've bolded Crystal Subconjuration to help evicted see the winning revision out of all of them when he types it out. If someone votes for another revision, giving it the lead, please bold the winning revision and unbold Subconjuration.
Post by: helmacon on September 10, 2017, 02:17:40 am
Idk, I am drunk though, so...
Post by: VoidSlayer on September 10, 2017, 02:24:38 am
I am going to vote for the Trust Fall again or for a revision to our lightning turrets to just aim down, which is a super simple thing we could do any time.
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 10, 2017, 02:30:45 am
Lightnings aren't winning air superiority-wise because of the destructiveness of Moskurg's lightning. If we win in air superiority, then we can shoot down their transports and air-based artillery. And the Firestorm still exists even if it isn't extremely effective.
Crystalclads would do well with better armor.
Infantry would do much better because of Combat Armor. Better infantry means we get an even bigger infantry combat advantage, which is much more important because it's city combat and because of evicted's judgement to my recent complaint. Again, infantry combat is going to be much more important this turn. The bigger our advantage here is, the better.
Everything made out of crystal would benefit. Everything.
Crystal sub conjeration makes no sense. If it wasn't already perfect at an atomic level, it wouldn't be a crystal.Right. But really, it should only be Crystal by name. We aren't trying to change it to be more perfect, but rather to be stronger.
But if other people have better ideas for fluff, please do tell me.
Post by: RAM on September 10, 2017, 02:47:21 am
Quote from: final revision
0 ChiefwafflesAetherfrost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561119#msg7561119):
1 *Some sort of bombing upgrade for furstorms: RAM
0 -RAMBlasteyes (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561200#msg7561200):
1 -VoidSlayerTrust Fall Targeting System (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561375#msg7561375): RAM
1 -andreaAir dropped bomb (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561398#msg7561398): RAM
0 -andreaMultiple area covering bomblet (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561398#msg7561398):
1 *Some sort of resiliency upgrade to crystals: RAM
0 -RAMReflexive regeneration (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561200#msg7561200):
1 -RAMCrystals Conferred Accelerated Regeneration by Power (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561200#msg7561200): RAM
0 -ChiefwafflesReactive Crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561680#msg7561680):
0 -ChiefwafflesCrystal Reactive Regeneration (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7562943#msg7562943):
2 -ChiefwafflesCrystal Subconjuration (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7563112#msg7563112): Chiefwaffles, Andres
1 RAMResiliant! (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561200#msg7561200): RAM
0 ChiefwafflesTrustStrike (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561606#msg7561606):
0 ChiefwafflesAS-R1-G (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561680#msg7561680):
0 ChiefwafflesPKPD (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561680#msg7561680):
0 ChiefwafflesBlastgem M.2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7562003#msg7562003):
0 ChiefwafflesReactive KPD (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7562003#msg7562003):
0 ChiefwafflesCommgem (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7562943#msg7562943):
Post by: FallacyofUrist on September 10, 2017, 10:25:17 am
Quote from: Vote For Vote Box Format
1 - RAM's Format: RAMSo we don't have to go back and forth and back and forth.
2 - Chiefwaffles' Format: Chiefwaffles, FallacyofUrist
Nickel Honest Strike: We replace the two copper scrolls we currently use in our Honest Strike with a single nickel one(which should work because nickel mimics the magical properties of gold better than copper) to bring down the expense level of our Honest Strike. And maybe get rid of the whole "Praise Allah, I don't mean it" thing.
Or, probably a better idea:
HA1 Equalizer: We create a larger version of the Equalizer shell(so it can work in the HA1) with the same propulsion as Starshells. The idea is we then shell Moskurg artillery positions with these, preventing them from using Lucky Strike(and possibly their artillery entirely) while still letting our Starshells explode(we do, after all, have Anti-Magic hardened circuits).
Post by: andrea on September 10, 2017, 10:33:31 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on September 10, 2017, 12:37:31 pm
Post by: helmacon on September 10, 2017, 01:18:38 pm
Quote from: final revision
0 ChiefwafflesAetherfrost (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561119#msg7561119):
1 *Some sort of bombing upgrade for furstorms: RAM
0 -RAMBlasteyes (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561200#msg7561200):
1 -VoidSlayerTrust Fall Targeting System (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561375#msg7561375): RAM
1 -andreaAir dropped bomb (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561398#msg7561398): RAM
0 -andreaMultiple area covering bomblet (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561398#msg7561398):
2 *Some sort of resiliency upgrade to crystals: RAM
0 -RAMReflexive regeneration (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561200#msg7561200):
1 -RAMCrystals Conferred Accelerated Regeneration by Power (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561200#msg7561200): RAM
0 -ChiefwafflesReactive Crystal (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561680#msg7561680):
0 -ChiefwafflesCrystal Reactive Regeneration (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7562943#msg7562943):
2 -ChiefwafflesCrystal Subconjuration (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7563112#msg7563112): Chiefwaffles, Andres
1 RAMResiliant! (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561200#msg7561200): RAM
0 ChiefwafflesTrustStrike (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561606#msg7561606):
0 ChiefwafflesAS-R1-G (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561680#msg7561680):
0 ChiefwafflesPKPD (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561680#msg7561680):
0 ChiefwafflesBlastgem M.2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7562003#msg7562003):
0 ChiefwafflesReactive KPD (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7562003#msg7562003):
0 ChiefwafflesCommgem (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7562943#msg7562943):
Revision: Tension Bubbled crystal
By creating bubbles of structural tension in our armor, and layering the resistive material in such a way as to direct impact and electricity to these areas, we can create an explosively resistant armor. When the armor is struck, either with high voltage or high force, the energy is directed to one of the bubbled areas which explodes outward. Think of them as similar to crumple zones in car frames. They are designed to allow point shattering of the crystal in areas to keep the integrity of the whole safe. This can be applied to anything that currently uses crystal armor. As a noted side effect, the crystal at these internal bubbles is a slightly different shade, resulting in a faint polka dot pattern on the surface of the armor. It's like NERA, but since crystal dosent expand, it kinda explodes outward.
Post by: andrea on September 10, 2017, 01:23:47 pm
Post by: helmacon on September 10, 2017, 03:37:48 pm
Quote
REVISION 2after discussion on the discord, and certin changes made to the fluff on sub conjuration, I am changing my vote.
1 - (VoidSlayer) Trust Fall Targeting System (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561375#msg7561375): RAM
1 - (Andrea) Air dropped bomb (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561398#msg7561398): RAM
0 - (Andrea) Multiple area covering bomblet (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561398#msg7561398):
0 - (RAM) Blasteyes (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561200#msg7561200):
0 - (RAM) Reflexive regeneration (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561200#msg7561200):
1 - (RAM) Crystals Conferred Accelerated Regeneration by Power (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561200#msg7561200): RAM
1 - (RAM) Resiliant! (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7561200#msg7561200): RAM
3 - Crystal Subconjuration (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=163277.msg7563112#msg7563112): Chiefwaffles, Andres, helmacon
REVISION REQUESTS
RAM: "Some sort of bombing upgrade for Firestorms"
RAM: "Some sort of resiliency upgrade to Crystal"
Post by: evictedSaint on September 11, 2017, 10:11:07 pm
Designing the crystalline structure of our weapons turns out to be quite difficult. As we exert more finely-tuned control over the microscopic shape of the crystal, the required circuitry for printing it begins to balloon exponentially. For really small things like crystal axes, it's all we can do to streamline the circuitry to prevent additional cost, but for larger devices like our Lightnings and Crystalclads the circuit requirements are just too much.
The end result is more hardy axes and body armor segments, but anything larger is simply too expensive to manufacture.
Post by: helmacon on September 11, 2017, 11:40:53 pm
Future revision.
Circuit recursion:
Summoning circuits by hand is limited to our mage's ability to summon in the first place. By using a standard of a circuit which prints another pattern much smaller, we can greatly reduce the size of these circuits. The circuits are made with grooves and then dipped into metal. When the top layer is removed, only the patterning in the grooves remains, and our circuits are fully functional, yet much smaller. This is all really just the clever application of existing technology. The real work is designing standard logic templates for certain functions that slot together, allowing a blank plate to be passed under the correct summoning circuits in the right order to create working logic chains. The end goal is replacing the template with smaller printed templates themselves until the entire system can be fit down into a single workstation for a mage to produce complex and specialized circuits and templates for each job on thier own.
Post by: RAM on September 12, 2017, 12:10:20 am
Post by: andrea on September 12, 2017, 11:49:01 am
PLAN A: All national efforts to defend home, and hope to see next year ?
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 12, 2017, 11:56:16 am
Post by: andrea on September 12, 2017, 11:58:03 am
Quote from: deployment vote
National efforts:
All to the home front - Andrea, Chiefwaffles
Other actions:
Hope as hard as you can - Andrea
Post by: RAM on September 12, 2017, 03:02:51 pm
Our bombers can't hit the side of a barn from high altitude, but can reach it. Let's have them fly high to reach the enemy's back-lines and then descend to bomb enemy airships from close range. Sure, they will take massive casualties, but they are pretty much useless otherwise...
Post by: helmacon on September 12, 2017, 03:11:54 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 12, 2017, 03:45:15 pm
Also mirroring this thought from Helmacon on discord:
Quote
also, the super useless protector might actualy find some use here. Operating on city streets, its wheels might not be quite as big a problem anymore.
Because we'll be fighting in a city where we have actual streets and whatnot, the Protector should actually work here. Maybe even be legitimately useful for once. The Protector's main problem that makes it useless is how it can very easily get stuck due to terrain. So if we're fighting in an environment meant for vehicles (like wagons, and the Protector is basically a motorized wagon) then the Protector should actually hopefully do really well.
I'm going to either edit in or post a Design/Revision for better circuits kind of like the one helmacon posted. If done right, it can apply the crystal upgrade to the rest of our designs and fix the CAF (and maybe HonestStrike!) like Andrea pointed out.
EDIT:
Design: Printed Circuitry
Circuitry is probably a cornerstone of Arstotzkan society, but we've been relying far too much on an unreliable base. Circuitry was first created with the revision of the Magical Condensor, and was "engraved into the metal by hand in an intensive, length process that only skilled metalsmiths are able to pull off."
That hasn't changed. We may make circuitry out of cheaper metals now, but despite this we still have to hand-engrave all our circuitry.
So let's change our approach. We can start by using Crystal Circuitry. Something developed many years ago but was never used due to micro-fractures in the crystal. But some amount of years after that archived revision, we imbued regeneration properties in Crystal, fixing the micro-fractures problem and thus retroactively making Crystal Circuitry useful again.
By making use of our much greater crystal precision and subconjuration techniques developed recently (Aerophobic Shells, Crystal Subconjuration), we can have Crystal Fabricator Units make circuitry at much smaller scales with a much cheaper material. Not scales approaching true subconjuration - still quite visible to the human eye - but having subconjuration at our disposal should make this even easier. Thanks to our ability to seamlessly integrate different types of crystal, Crystal Circuitry should be able to be integrated within regular crystal too.
Since we're going from hand-poured circuitry to fabricated subconjuration circuitry, the increase in potential complexity and decrease in size of circuitry should be massive. The best part is, this should be easy! We literally already have Crystal Circuitry. We already have Crystal Subconjuration.
All we have to do is combine the two. Really, this is just a design for formality reasons. To help ensure the success of this project.
We expect this to make the CAF much smaller, less delicate, and cheaper. It should do the same for HonestStrike. And we should be able to apply Crystal Subconjuration processes to all crystal designs despite their sizes due to the ability to create much more circuitry.
TL;DR: Combine Crystal Subconjuration (not full microscopic - just small but still visible to the eye) + Crystal Circuitry to make printed crystal circuits at a much smaller scale + greater potential complexity compared to current hand-poured metal circuits. Should greatly help the CAF, HonestStrike, (making both much more viable considering the main/only notable flaw with both is large+complex+delicate circuitry) and apply Crystal Subconjuration to our bigger designs. Should also hopefully let us integrate circuitry within crystal, as we can already seamlessly integrate different types of crystal.
Difficulty: Again, this should be significantly easy. We already have Crystal Circuitry. We already have Crystal Subconjuration. All we're doing is combining the two to make crystal circuitry at a small scale (NOT MICROSCOPIC - just small in general; using what we learned from crystal subconjuration along with our precision to make this even easier. Even this should be an extreme improvement over current hand-poured circuitry). This should be a huge improvement over the current hand-pouring of metal for circuitry. And this is a Design solely to further decrease difficulty.
Expected benefits:
- CAF - The CAF is hurt by a lot of large delicate complex expensive circuitry. This should practically eliminate that flaw, greatly decreasing the size+complexity+expense of the CAF and making it much more viable (barring the flaws of crystal bullets).
- HonestStrike - HonestStrike requires a lot of scrolls + embedded circuitry, increasing its complexity+delicateness+size+expense. Benefits should be clear.
- Crystal Subconjuration - The entire problem behind Crystal Subconjuration is how much circuitry it requires. Printed Circuitry should eliminate that problem, allowing Subconjuration to be applied to all our crystal designs.
- AS-R1 - The AS-R1 should become less bulky and easier to handle as its circuitry decreases in size. Not a huge difference, but definitely notable.
- Everything else - Anything that uses circuitry should benefit as the circuitry should become much smaller and whatnot.
- Integration - Since crystal circuits are, well, crystal, and are small, and we already have the known ability to seamlessly integrate different types of crystal, we should be able to integrate crystal circuits seamlessly with other crystal.
Post by: evictedSaint on September 16, 2017, 03:58:50 pm
As mentioned in the previous turn, the most exciting field of battle this year will be in the Arstotzkan capitol, with plenty of close-quarter fighting and siege warfare. Arstotzka, accordingly, spent their design phase developing a high-altitude tactical bomber. Their design had some mixed successes; the ASAF-B49 "Firestorm" is merely Expensive, and can operate above cloud cover far out of reach of Moskurg air forces. They even succeeded in developing a crystal bomb printer using components from their Crystalworks and developed an oxygen-production spell to allow the pilot to breathe that high up. Unfortunately, they out of time before they could figure out how to integrate their HonestStrike module into a non-gun weapon. Even worse, the bombs are quite small and the accuracy leaves a lot to be desired. And finally, at the ultra-high altitude the Firestorm operates at ice tends to form on the craft, which reduces visibility and can cause crippling jams in the crystal bomb printer. These bugs go sadly unfixed as the next revision was instead spent on revising their artillery shells to use their existing KPD drives to boost their range which they refer to as "Starshells". This goes quite well, earning them two additional ranges on their HA1; 1 more than Moskurg's Thundergun's ultimate range, and 2 more than their accurate range. The explosive capability of the artillery shells isn't diminished, as the overcharged Aethergem powering the shell explodes with a satisfying boom upon reaching its target. Their second revision goes to improving their crystal, which hits a stumbling block saved only by their impressive existing knowledge of crystal. The revision - "Crystal Subconjuration" - proves to be too intensive and expensive for anything larger than a crystal axe or a piece of crystal armor.
Moskurg immediately spends their Research Credit on developing their own hand-held rifle to match Arstotzka's; the "Lightning Rifle". Essentially a means for a mundane soldier to use a Wand of Thunderbolts, the weapon is rather simply made. An adamantium spike helps to direct the discharged lightning out of the wand, which is activated once the circuit is completed with the depression of the trigger mechanism. An open sliding bolt allows the wand to be placed inside and removed by hand, and the entire contraption is cradled in a long stock made out of the finest jungle wood available. It's simple and easy enough that every soldier can be equipped with one, and an experienced user can fire up to six times a minute. The range and damage output are diminished slightly, however; the Lightning Rifle is accurate only out to Short Range (equivalent to that of a short bow) despite being able to go out to Long Range before the lightning bolt is drawn to the ground. The explosive nature of the lightning is diminished out of necessity, resulting in a much more modest blast than the white-hot plasma explosion the normal wands produce. After debating what to spend the revisions on, Moskurg designers ultimately settle on "Mindsense", a modified variant of their existing mind-reading spell. The spell works by "finding" a mind rather than reading or manipulating it and returning the direction of that mind relative to the caster. With multiple Mindsensing mages, this spell can work as a primitive form of Long Range RADAR, able to locate a mind (protected or otherwise) and pinpoint the rough location of it. Their follow-up revision was "Shortwave Teletalk", which fixes the short-range limitation on their teletalk wands (their very first invention) and extends the range out to hundreds of kilometers. A few of the mind-channels have been taken over by pirate radio stations, but the system is robust enough for use in the field.
Arstotzka makes another attempt on the desert.
Their new Starshells are quite effective, able to reach further than Moskurg's artillery and hit unsuspecting troops from a ridiculous range. The initial elevation of the Mountainous terrain to the north makes this advantage easy to press at first, but once they've begun moving further into the desert and the terrain levels out it becomes apparent their communications system needs work. Flares are good for general directions, but unwieldy for giving more precise coordinates. Dialing in artillery barrages typically involves a Lightning overhead watching the ranging shot, landing, informing the artillery crew of how to adjust their aim, taking off, and observing the resulting area of effect before repeating the process. Moskurgs Thunderguns are limited by now having less range than their counterpart, but benefit from the advancement of their Shortwave Teletalk Wands. Getting their artillery in range of Arstotzkan troops generally relies on concealment and ambush - a generally impossible task in the open desert, but made merely difficult by their homefield advantage. More useful is the artillery platforms mounted on their airships, which are immune to all but Arstotzkan Lightning fighters. Though few in number and easily crippled when overwhelmed with enemy Lightnings, they manage to score a few solid hits in on the advancing Arstotzkan army. Despite that, Arstotzka has too much of an artillery advantage with their range, sheer numbers, and starting elevation advantage.
When they get the chance, Moskurg makes attempts to push up the mountains, but Arstotzka is (and always has been) too firmly dug in to push out. Troops never make it past the base of the steep mountains, and Arstotzkan artillery can operate with impunity with such an extreme range advantage. Battles tend to occur on the desert sands far below instead, where the combat is more even. Air power is still generally even, with Moskurg able to edge out a small advantage with their control of the weather and the ability to use lightning strikes on distant air targets. Melees still also go to Arstotzka, whose longer-range rifles can control the open terrain and score kills long before the two powers close for pitched combat. Their Valkyrie transporters can rarely land behind the Moskurg lines, though the flanking advantage is still blunted thanks to their poor suitability. Moskurgs native naval advantage is more pronounced, but landing troops need to close in to make good use of their Lightning Rifles and halberds.
Arstotzkas bonuses to open terrain outweigh Moskurgs capabilities, and by the end of the year they manage to regain a foothold in the desert far to the south.
Arstotzka regains a foothold in the Desert.
Much like the desert, Arstotzka makes good use of their artillery advantage.
Moskurg struggles to match them in the static trench warfare that's taken over the eastern half of the continent. Tornadoes have poor effectiveness against dug-in trenches, and lightning strikes likewise struggle to a lesser degree. Arstotzka's longer-range rifles also help here, and their HAC-1's are crucial to trench defense. Moskurgs only advantages here are their superior communication, their slightly better flanking bonus, and their ability to communicate far more easily than Arstotzka with their cumbersome flares.
The Protector, as always, fails to make much of an impact.
Sadly, Arstotzkas new Firestorm has a similar effect. With the terrible accuracy and inability to operate for extended periods of time, it serves only to occasionally harass Moskurg troops. It's not terribly effective, but Arstotzka's design team is quick to point out that none of them were lost due to hostile actions.
Combat is still mostly determined by artillery and airpower - with Arstotzka making advances with respect to their artillery advantage and having advanced already last year, that simply helps to cement their advantage in this field. Moskurg manages to coordinate their retreats with their Shortwave Teletalk wands, mitigating their losses. Phoenix transporters are useful with evacuation, able to pull out surrounded troops (as long as the Skyskiffs can keep enemy Lightnings at bay). The Lightning Rifles are surprisingly good at trench defense, with their explosive capabilities able to kill advancing Arstotzkans once they've closed in far enough. Even once the trenches are overrun, many soldiers ditch their unwieldy halberds to use the rifles exclusively, as the shorter length and ability to blast off arms and legs despite armor (breastplates and helmets are too sturdy to crack) is well-appreciated. The last calvary charge of the war happens this year, cementing their obsoletion. A brave Arstotzkan charge is met with disaster as the relatively less-armored horses are torn apart by a barrage of Lightning Rifle blasts, earning the weapon the nickname "Horsekiller".
Still, despite their limited success, Moskurg is forced back and cedes a section of the plains to the northerners.
Arstotzka gains another section of the Plains.
In the northern seas, Arstotzka's improved artillery doesn't have a pronounced effect, as combat is still primarily determined by air forces - Moskurgs navy is virtually nonexistent as they rely almost entirely on air ships.
Moskurg managed to press their advantage last year, and with their improved communication thanks to their Shortwave Teletalk, they can more firmly flank and coordinate their attacks. Arstotzkan Crystalclads sink to the bottom of the ocean and countless Lightnings splash down.
Moskurg gains another section of shoreline in the Northern Seas
And now, for the combat report everyone has been waiting on.
The Siege of Arstotzka's Capitol.
The main section of the capitol is surrounded with earth-work walls; wooden palisades backed by dirt and stone around a natural hill to create a plateau-style raised city. The rest of the city spills out over these walls; mostly wooden homes, with the occasional stone shoring for a foundation. The docks extend northward into the frozen sea where the majority of their fleet is crouched, having lost most of their shore bases to the Moskurg invaders. Civilians have mostly evacuated or pulled back behind the walls, and the entire city holds its breath as the oil smoke to the south creeps ever northward.
To the south, the Moskurg army marches through the snow, kept mostly warm by their temperature-controlled adamantium armor, which is good for little else than the warmth it can provide. Arstotzkan Anti-Mages hide in trees and crouch in snowbanks to ambush the approaching invaders, but Moskurgs Mindsense spell shows its worth here. Non-magical ambushes and traps can already be sensed, and with the ability to detect enemy minds (or more appropriately, the anti-magic shield around enemy minds) these ambushes invariably end in failure. The new Firestorm makes a valiant effort to bomb the approaching troop columns, but only a few of the grenade-sized bombs actually hit enemy targets. Far more freeze at the high altitude and explode, crippling the craft and sending them limping back home. Arstotzkas most effective means of delaying the encroaching army is by making intelligent use of their artillery; most guns have been pulled back to the capitol to help prepare for the defense, but smart generals use their knowledge of the local terrain to figure out where the Moskurg army will be passing through to set up artillery ambushes. Too long-range for Mindsense to detect, a sudden pre-dialed in artillery shell will land in the middle of a troop formation while making a difficult river crossing or passing through a mountain pass. This does the most damage of all their delaying tactics, but the artillery pieces are invariably discovered and destroyed before they can escape. The crews are captured and summarily executed.
Before long Moskurgs army reaches the outer edges of the city. Empty farmhouses and snowed-in fields give way to humble shacks and halls with their doors swinging in the wind. Moskurg loots what they can and continue their progress north until they are camped outside of the capitol proper, just out of range of the artillery on the walls. Ivory towers dot the earthen walls, spewing cold and misery at the invaders. Likewise, Moskurgs control of the weather buries the city in snow. Neither side is particularly thrilled with the weather; Moskurg troops mix Alannar into their drinks to stay warm, and Arstotzkan's huddle beneath their leather gambesons next to their massive crystal cannons. Guards on the walls man HAC-1's and stare into the treeline to the south. Patrols along the hastily-dug trench go up and down the tree-lines, keeping a sharp eye out for northern ambushes or sallies. Days go by in this tense stand-off as both sides prepare for the most intense battle the war has seen thusfar.
Finally, Moskurg makes the first move.
It's morning when the first Arstotzkan guardsman sees them; black specks rising up over the treeline. The guards initially mistake them for birds. It's an easy mistake, since the black dots are nearly impossible to see through the howling snow and wind anyways. What gives them away is the sheer number; every Skyskiff, Phoenix, and Skyhawk in Moskurgs fleet rises up into position. The alarm is sounded as the first artillery round slams into the city, annihilating a shoemakers workshop and sending splinters of wood through four nearby guardsmen.
Lightnings scramble to take off, listing to one side as the wind increases in intensity. Already those in the guards towers can spot a dozen tornadoes whipping up and curling towards the walls. Arstotzkas air fleet skirts the snow-laden cyclones and blast off towards the encroaching airships. Moskurg's floating artillery platforms get in a good number of hits - buildings crumble, and despite the snow a few fires break out in some of the older buildings. Despite the damage the Skyhawks are doing, the Lightnings ignore them for now to focus on the more immediate threat; the Phoenixes.
A dozen Lightnings go down as their namesake blasts down from the sky, but enough get by to do their first pass on the giant tankers. Turrets swivel and shake as the 20 mm rounds blast from the barrels and punch holes in the Adamantium armor. Alannar leaks from bullet holes, and the craft begins to list as one of their engine nacells takes a round through the jet engines hidden within. Lightning defense arcs off the craft, desperately trying to knock out a few of the attackers, but it's too late. The ship tips and slides to the ground where it erupts into a truly awe-inspiring explosion - thankfully not within the city. Skyskiffs rush forward to repel the counter-attackers, but once a Lightning starts moving they're hard to catch. The Arstotzkans wildly wheel around and go after one tanker after another, managing to shoot down the last one just before it passed over the city walls. Fire spills out onto the wooden palisade, but the earthworks behind it maintain most of the walls integrity.
With their focus mostly spent on the heavier airships, the remaining Lightnings soon find themselves out-numbered by Skyskiffs. They make good use of high-speed passes to score hits, but before long most of Arstotzka's airforce and Moskurgs flying heavy weapons are downed. Skyskiffs make do with what they have left, striking as many of the artillery emplacements on the walls as they can to make way for their army. Moskurg troops on the ground turn their eyes skyward nervously as crystal and adamantium comes raining down, but few are actually hit. Once it comes time to march their eyes drop back down to the walls in the distance. Smoke curls over the city and distant booms echo across the snowy field littered with airship wreckage. Fear claws at the heart of every man, until he rides past.
"Bravery! Have heart, for today we destroy these Arstotzkan heathens!!!"
al-Mutriqa, sitting astride his his adamantium jet engine, raises his golden mace. His purple cape swirls in the snowy breeze, and the cold win claws at his gray beard. Even despite the wrinkles lining his face, his eyes burn bright with a religious fervor. His Wand of Heroism inspires every man he flies past, but the effect is fleeting - until Hayat follows close behind. Though brutally scarred, she is no less inspiring to those who see her. Moral improved, the infantry commander gives the order and Moskurgs army charges for the walls.
The Skyskiffs and Skyhawks did their best, but a few cannons still stand proudly atop the walls. An Arstotzkan standard waves next to each one, and an HAC-1 gunner stands close by. As soon as the Moskurg army steps out of the treeline the cannons all erupt with a deafening roar. Shells explode in the distance, sending men and limbs flying. Myark stands atop the wall to the west, R1 in hand as he takes careful aim. The most valuable targets go down first; mages carrying pavise shields. Then commanders, then just whoever happened to be closest. He works quickly, fury barely contained as he works the bolt like a flywheel. His Wand of True Light causes those closest to the wall hesitate, only to be caught by his rifle round.
Bjorn stands atop the walls further to the east, bravely fighting despite the apparent danger. Unlike his mentor, his fury is not contained; fireballs erupt from the palms of his hands, and with a horrible scream he hurls them to the south. Moskurg soldiers burn in the distance as his fireballs take out whole squads. Even his fellow soldiers look upon this God of Fire with fear. Bjorn raises his hands and a wall of flames climbs out of the snow, catching a dozen Moskurgers in the blast. It's a spell that only a group of mages can cast, but the prodigy does it all on his own. Numerous Moskurgers burn as they stumble through the wall, some even turn tail and flee, but most stall and look for a way around. Like an arrow from above, Hayat drops out of the sky atop her jet and crashes into Bjorn. The two go tumbling further into the city where they disappear from view, and the wall of flames dies down.
They take heavy losses, but Moskurg manages to make it to the walls. Infantry men go clambering up the frosty soil of shattered barricades with rifles in hand. At this close range the Lightning Rifle is more effective than the R1; though it can't compare for range and accuracy, the powerful blast of a Lightning Rifle can take out a soldier or two all on its own. Screams from both sides fill the city as fighting spills over the walls and into the streets. Mindsense turns out to be a surprisingly effective tool at hunting down Arstotzkan troops and launching impromptu-ambushes. Mindsensing groups of Moskurg mages direct squads of infantry into buildings or down alleyways, catching Arstotzkans by surprise. The few Skyskiffs that remain circle overhead, attacking targets of opportunity where they appear. Far to the south, Moskurg artillery wheels forward as fast as they can for the final assault on the palace now that the wall defenses have been taken care of. An explosion rips through the western market district as al-Mutriqa and Myark find one another and continue their decades-old rivalry. Fires engulf entire buildings as Arstotzkan mages abandon R1's and crystal axes to hurl fireballs at anyone they can see wearing Adamantium. Moskurg commanders direct battalions through sectors of the city through use of their Shortwave Teletalk wands, which prove to be invaluable here.
Before the day is over Arstotzka's remaining forces have drawn back to the palace and Moskurg's ragged troops have taken up defensive positions in what buildings haven't been burned down. The city is in ruins; the Crystalclads all sit at the bottom of the harbor, the Crystalworks is a smouldering pile of charred wood and melted circuits, and the streets are cratered and littered with tangled bodies dressed in red or blue. Moskurg has moved their Thunder Guns into position and prepare to shell the palace, where defenders crouch in windows with R1's in hand. If taking the city had been a difficult, then storming the palace would be a bloodbath. Moskurg soldiers grip their Lighting Rifles tightly and count their remaining shots, and Arstotzkans soldiers test the blades of their newly-reinforced crystal axes. Neither side expects this final push to be easy - that's why it comes as a surprise when the Arstotzkan King steps out of the doors of the palace and waits patiently. A few minutes go by before a Moksurg commander and a dozen guards approach. All eyes are on this encounter; few people can hear what muted words the Moskurg commander and the Arstotzkan King exchange, but after a moment the two part ways. Word soon gets out - Moskurg soldiers whisper conspiratorially about how the enemy King wished to surrender, and Arstotzkans mutter darkly about their cowardly leader who dared to yield to the enemy.
Night falls, and the official announcement is made.
The war is over!
-standby for the postwar report-
Post by: Andres on September 17, 2017, 02:27:01 am
Post by: evictedSaint on September 17, 2017, 05:35:52 pm
It's been nearly a century of combat, whether it be light skirmishes against unsuspecting villages, coastal raidings by longboats, or actual troop columns marching down country roads toward enemy strongholds. It's been almost a century, but only 39 years since the discovery of magic fundamentally changed the nature of war. In that time both sides have seen the standard sword vs spear clash of troop lines give way to the terror of artillery shells from miles away. Calvary charges were obsoleted by the invention of rifles by both sides, and ships that literally swim through the air above have seen to it that men no longer stand above ground but in trenches when they can manage it. Whether it be fire or lightning, magic has taken hold of the continent and reigned supreme over the abilities of the mundane mortal man.
We find ourselves now in Arstotzkas Capitol. It's been two days since the Arstotzkan King surrendered, and in that time both sides have been tending to their wounded. It's not uncommon for soldiers to stumble around on crutches, or lay quietly in cots with their faces swathed in bandages. Many grumble darkly about magic - even Moskurg soldiers who openly admit that their mages were crucial to winning the war lament that even though the wizards can call down lightning from the sky, they can't regrow an arm or heal a burned face. At the very least with the war ended the skies remain clear and sunny, and Arstotzkan Dogwood mages make their way to fields under the escort of Moskurg soldiers to replant the frozen crops.
Rumor has spread about the nature of the Kings surrender - the Moskurg Sultan himself is traveling north to accept it in a grand ceremony, some say. Others whisper that the King has challenged the Sultan to single combat to decide the ultimate outcome of the war. Yet others still mutter darkly that the King and Sultan are planning to betray those who served them faithfully in some sort of "Battle of the Embassies", where the negotiations are to take place. Many deride that last option as unrealistic, but all the rumors agree.
Moskurgs Sultan is on his way north.
He arrives on the third day, stepping out of a massive Phoenix transporter with his entourage. The cobblestones underfoot are still in disarray, and here and there blood remains frozen where the shadows hide it from the warmth of the sun. Many buildings are charred rubble and the stench of gore mixes in with the lingering smoke, but most of the dead have been reclaimed and buried in the frozen earth - or shipped south for a proper Moskurg burial. The Sultans guard flanks him protectively and escorts him through the streets to the Arstotzkan palace. The city is still mostly deserted, but civilians who timidly returned once the fighting died down (or simply never left) tentatively poke their heads through the windows of their homes to view the procession. One even has the bravery to hurl an insult at the Sultan - "Murderer!" - but he quickly disappears from view once he catches the guards attention.
Hayat meets her father at the doors of the palace. She's bandaged - one arm seems broken, and her hair is singed - but she seems otherwise fine. On-lookers watch as the Sultan quietly discusses something with his heir, who grows quite irate. Her voice rises until she's nearly screaming at her father, but once al-Mutriqa steps in she falls into a sullen silence. With the discussion seemingly finished, the group proceeds into the Arstotzkan palace.
Inside the grand hall they are joined with their former enemies. The Arstotzkan King is flanked by Myark and Bjorn, who like Hayat seems unscathed aside from a bandage around his eye. The two heirs glare at one another, mirroring the dark stares al-Mutriqa and Myark exchange. Onlookers include the minor Arstotzkan Chief Sweyn Hardrada, Hayats younger brother Mehmed, and both countries Design Teams. After a brief, courteous introduction, the King and Sultan disappear into a conference room for a more private discussion, leaving the rest to mill about in the grand hall.
Some time goes by - Moskurger and Arstotzkan rarely interact, preferring to remain with their own comrades and stare daggers at those across the room. A few attempts at diplomacy are attempted, however. Some Moskurg designers approach the Arstotzkan team to ask what possessed them to design a high-altitude tactical bomber for city defense, and are promptly met with accusations of stealing their rifle design. A few more cordial discussions occur, with Moskurg mages and Arstotzkan mages discussing the nature of magic and how their magical developments compare and differ in many aspects. Moskurg magic tends to rely on "Divine Favour" from their god, which produced jumbled but surprisingly elegant spells. Arstotzkan magic relied on an in-depth understanding of the underlying threads and how to weave it together to create spells that were limited, but highly effective in their intended purpose. Myark and al-Mutriqa nearly engage in another duel right there in the hall but are dissuaded by onlookers. Hayat and Bjorn do not talk to anyone.
After a surprisingly short time the leaders of Brave Moskurg and Glorious Arstotzka return. All eyes in the hall turn towards them as they together stand at the top of the dais. For the first time, everyone gets a good look at the two venerable rulers. Wrinkles line every spare bit of flesh on their faces. Beneath their silk and furs it's apparent their limbs are thin and frail, and their eyes betray the weariness of old age. Neither had been a young man when the advent of magic took to the field, and nearly four decades of non-stop fighting has taken its toll. Even Myark and al-Mutriqa had magic to rely on for when their strength failed them, but these two old men had nothing but the burden of rule and the fate of their kingdoms to keep them going.
"After much discussion..."
The hall falls silent as the Moskurg Sultan speaks.
"...we have reached an agreement,"
finishes the Arstotzkan King. Muttering fills the hall but dies down when he lifts his hand.
"For too long have we fought one another. Brave young men have entered and left this world and never known the joys of peace. Only the flavorless bile of war have they enjoyed. My son - "
Bjorn straightens up and looks at his father with his one good eye.
" - was born into an age of magic and war. And he nearly left it in defense of his home, like so many others have already."
"And my daughter Hayat knows no such thing as peace in her short life time, either. The time has come for our two realms to make peace with one another; a peace that will last not just this lifetime, but every lifetime from now until the end of time."
More murmurs. Bjorn and Hayat shift uncomfortably, clearly not happy with where this discussion is going. Myark glares at his king with barely contained fury, and Chief Sweyn Hardrada shakes his head slowly. al-Mutriqa watches along with an open curiosity, and Mehmed stands by impassively.
"That is why it is only fitting we secure the end of this war with a celebration of continuing life. Hayat and Bjorn...will marry."
The rest of the announcement went by quickly, with the details explained over the protests of both Bjorn and Hayat and almost everyone else in attendance. The marriage would be matrilineal, to reflect Moskurgs victory during the war. Their children would inherit both kingdoms and unite them into a single Forenia. And finally, the marriage will take place in Arstotzkas capitol within the week, lest those that attend forget the devastation brought on by war. Most of the preparations go smoothly - it was odd to be preparing for a wedding whilst burying bodies at the same time, but a special harvest is grown and decorations are prepared. Neither of the engaged seemed particularly thrilled with the prospect of marriage, but even despite their protests preparations continued all the same.
The King has met with you, the Design Team. He seems weary, but for the first time since you've known him he seems hopeful. He weathers dirty looks on a daily basis from those furious he would yield and "betray" the kingdom to the scorpions to the south, but his rule is law and no one dares speak out against him openly.
He confides with you all that he fears the wedding will not go as smoothly as he would hope. There are too many dissenters, and the fact that both heirs will be at the wedding along with most of the leadership represents a huge risk. He asks that you do your part to protect young Bjorn and his bride to-be against all threats, and has authorized each member to develop their own spell or device to facilitate that.
Later that very same day, a meeting of like-minded individuals assembles in a dark room outside of the palace. It is Sweyn Hardrada and his supporters; some of whom are members of the Design Team who spoke with the King earlier that day! His words confirm what the King feared. With those that attend, he quietly plots the downfall of the cowardly King, the weakling Bjorn, the scorpion Sultan and his whore daughter Hayat. The King is a coward who would surrender those who followed him than die fighting, and Bjorn is a weakling who can be sold off like a goat to the Moskurgers to the south. They will strike during the wedding and decapitate the leadership of both sides, installing Hardrada as the new leader of Arstotzka and continuing the war until the Moskurg devils have felt the crushing might of a true Northern King. The plotting goes into the night, and the members all leave in hooded robes and disappear into the dark.
Each player may PM me 1 Design, a Plan (if any), and which Faction they will be fighting for. They will receive 1d6 (no bonuses or penalties) roll in the next report judging the effectiveness of their actions. Limit of 1 PM per player; choose wisely, as you cannot change your actions later. Next report will be in 3 days.
Post by: Andres on September 18, 2017, 02:44:29 pm
Post by: Gwolfski on September 18, 2017, 03:41:07 pm
Post by: Chiefwaffles on September 19, 2017, 05:42:54 pm
Because I'm doing a pretty... complicated, thing. And it'd all fall apart if it the update happens before I send my PM.
Post by: evictedSaint on September 19, 2017, 06:10:59 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on September 23, 2017, 08:32:55 pm
A week goes by as preparations for the royal wedding are made.
During this time, the majority of the armies are withdrawn from the field and march home. For Arstotzka, entire battalions, platoons, squads, and even single war-weary soldiers by themselves trickle back north to their homes in the capitol. Dismay is visible on each mans face as they come home to smoke, ashes, and wreckage. The war is over, and for many of the defeated they wonder if there was ever really any point in the fighting in the first place. Moskurg's remaining forces likewise march north on the orders of their Sultan, with the claim that they were to assist in the rebuilding of the city. While the soldiers do assist, it's fairly obvious their attendance is more mainly a peace-keeping effort than one of reconstruction. One by one the remaining fires are stomped out and the smoke that hung over the city like a terrible miasma dissipates in the magical wind.
Reconstruction goes surprisingly quick; though they're without their famed Crystalworks, Arstotzka's mages manage to quickly erect crystal houses for the displaced. Moskurgs temperature-controlled adamantium finds use as a cheap metal to replace cooking ware, nails, and even as an experimental air conditioning unit. Mages plant crops and power windmills, and the city slowly rebuilds. Despite the cooperation, things are not all that cordial between the two sides. Fights break out nightly at the one remaining ale house, and one particular scuffle in the streets ended in fireballs and lightning strikes that destroyed a block of newly-constructed buildings. Both Arstotzka's King and Moskurg's Sultan do their best, but with both armies packed into the city they find it difficult to keep a tight leash on their men.
After much debate, it's decided the wedding will take place at the palace, as the few churches in the city are piles of ash and Arstotkza wasn't terribly religious in the first place. A few concessions are made to reflect the nature of the alliance, resulting in a mix of both Muslim and Pagan marriage rituals that are debate down to the smallest detail. Neither heir is thrilled with the prospect of marrying the enemy, but each still prepares themselves for the wedding. Both are loyal to their country to a fault, and though they may not like it both Bjorn and Hayat agree a wedding is better than the alternative - but only just.
By the end of the week the city is looking to be in considerably better shape. New buildings poke out of the rubble like sprouts through a fresh snowfall, and most of the wreckage has been cleared away. A hastily erected crystal bell tower rings adamantium bells as the wedding begins, announcing to the all those in ear-shot that the alliance between the two kingdoms will soon be cemented. The palace has been swept and polished, the tables filled with food and drink, and the throne room packed with cobbled-together pews for those in attendance. Guests trickle in and take seats on their respective side - Moskurg on the eastern side, Arstotzka on the west. Guards decked in adamantium and full crystal plate stand at attention at every door, rifles in hand.
The throne room is mostly timber, with arches reaching far overhead holding up the ceiling in a way that was surely impressive before the advent of magic. Gray flagstones line the floor, reaching up to the raised dais at the far end of the room where Arstotzka's high-back oak-timber throne sits. An impressive stained-glass mural fills the wall over the throne with an image of a red tree against a blue ocean background; only a few piece of glass have been knocked free, which is quite impressive considering the brutal shelling the city took. Anyone who's important takes their seats in the pews facing the dais, and the rest of the rabble fill the balconies in the wings of the room. Sunlight streams through the glass, illuminating Bjorn in the red light of the tree.
He's dressed finely - expensive furs sit over top a traditional steel hauberk with soft red fabric padding. Despite the steam of his breath, the young berserker is positively sweltering under the piles of furs he dressed in. Perhaps it'd been an attempt to hide his relatively frail frame, or perhaps his dresser had been overzealous in bedecking the heir for this historic marriage. Whatever the case, the outfit did little to improve his temper and he stood on the dais in a dark silence. A band in the back of the room begins to play, silencing the gentle murmuring of the crowd. Eyes turn to the back of the room, where Hayat enters.
Her gown is blue cotton, going up over her head with jewelry adorning every available surface. She looks positively uncomfortable wearing a dress; she steps on the fabric once or twice as she makes her way to the dais over a trail of freshly-grown rose petals. Henna patterns snake up her arms, and a veil covers her face. It was an obvious attempt to hide the disfiguring scars she'd obtained during the war. Even despite the veil, those who've never met the woman before mutter to one another over the shocking appearance. Hayat takes her place next to Bjorn, standing in the blue light of the ocean. The band falls silent, and al-Mutriqa takes his place on the dais.
He brings with him an old, worn copy of the holy book, and after some preamble goes on to read the first chapter to those in attendance. He delves into tangents once or twice, usually about the battles he'd won on the field in service of Allah. Myark, sitting in the front row, interrupts to correct one detail - specifically how al-Mutriqa had actually been defeated in that battle. The sermon quickly derails into a shouting match, then childish insults, then a quick bit of magic that blows a chunk out of the dais. Guards intervene, and the sermon continues with both heroes pointedly avoiding eye contact. Bjorn and Hayat stand by quietly, stone-faced and white-knuckled.
Finally the time comes.
"Bjorn, what dowry do you offer as your bride-price?"
Bjorn looks sick, but after a moment he swallows and speaks.
"I offer my inheritance to her children. The Kingdom of Arstotzka, to be ruled after my death."
Murmurs fill the throne room, mostly from the Arstotzka side. Some movement occurs on the upper balcony, but it goes largely unnoticed.
"Hayat, this man stands before you for the sake of marriage. Do you take him to be your husband, for now and always, in this life and in the next? You must answer thrice."
Hayat looks no better than Bjorn, but still finds the strength to speak. There's some muted conversation up above, and people have begun to notice.
"I do."
The conversation has grown louder now, and a few people in the crowd stand up.
"I do."
An alarming number of the guards in attendance suddenly move out of position.
"I d - "
"TRAITORS!"
A shot rings out from the balcony above, and the resulting arc of lightning jumps down towards the dais. It curves at the last minute - perhaps a limitation of the design, or even divine favor - but it hits the wooden throne with a deafening crack! It explodes into a shower of splinters, knocking over the three on the dais. The throne room dissolves into shouts and thunderous gunfire as that particular balcony is torn apart by lightning and rifle rounds. It was an ambush!
"DEATH TO THE TRAITORS!"
Attendees and guards have begun fighting - some with curious blue or red bandanas tied around their upper arms. Blades, rifles, and wands have come out now, and the throne room is filled with the screams and blasts of fire or lightning. The Sultan and King have stood up now and made progress to the dais where their children lay prone, but they don't make it far. Mehmed, who had been sitting next to his father, grabs him by the arm. Without a word his adamantium dagger stabs into the old mans belly. His father falls to the ground and Mehmed turns to the crowd, holding the bloody dagger aloft. "The Sultan is dead! Now begins the reign of Mehmed!" Those wearing blue armbands cheer, and guards wearing adamantium hesitate - Mehmed is a kinslayer, but does that make him the new Sultan? Hayat groans on the floor behind him, and their decision is made. Mehmed disappears into an adjacent hall as lightning bolts suddenly arc out from a half-dozen rifles and tear apart a thick wooden pillar.
The Arstotzkan King makes it another step at least, before a rifle round catches him in the back. He falls to the ground as Hardrada calmly chambers another Magegem. The King struggles to push himself back up, but Hardrada coolly steps on the small of his back and pushes him back down. "Weak." He takes careful aim, and ends the King's reign. "The King is dead! By the right of Strength do I claim his throne!" This earns him the cheers of those wearing red armbands, but a sudden gout of fire passes over his shoulder. Bjorn is back on his feet, but only barely. His eyes burn with fury, and Hardrada turns to deal with his new adversary.
This all occurs in a matter of seconds, and only now do the members of the design team in attendance manage to gather their prepared weapons and react to the chaos unfolding around them.
Egan_BW: [3]
You were sitting in the upper balcony on Moskurgs side when a shitstorm of rifle fire blows apart the balcony a few feet away from where you're sitting. The gunman you'd failed to notice rains chunky salsa all over you and everyone next to you. You knew it!!! You'd prepared for this eventuality - that's why you handed out your brand-new Single-Action-Allah out to every Moskurg guard in attendance. As a six-shooter that uses a rotating cylinder and miniaturized Wands of Thunderbolts, the SAA acts as a shortened rifle that can fire six times in rapid succession. It's impossible to reload in a timely manner though, and the fact that you gave one to every guard in attendance means even the Moskurg traitors have it. The palace is filled with deafening cracks of lightning, blowing apart the wooden pillars lining the room. You're not concerned with that, though; you spy Mehmed fleeing through a doorway. That traitor will not get away with this! You leap over the shattered banisters and chase after him. Continue to Pursuit of Mehmed below.
Crazyabe: [4]
Your time in the forge has been well-spent. You've built a statue of al-Mutriqa himself - from his younger years. This is an exceptional Adamantium statue of al-Mutriqa. The item is an exceptionally designed image of al-Mutriqa the Moskurg Hero and a fig leaf. al-Mutriqa is striking a menacing pose. The fig leaf is making a plaintive gesture. The artwork relates to the duel between al-Mutria the Moskurg Hero and Myark the Arstotzkan Hero during the late-spring of 943 during the War of Forenia. The fig leaf was an after-thought, but every tasteful nude statue should have some modesty. al-Mutriqa agreed - if you were going to smuggle it into the wedding, it'd be best if it didn't weird out the guests too much. Unbeknownst to everyone else, you've applied some pretty hefty enchantments to that bad boy, giving it its own limited sentience. Right now the statue sits in a pile of other wedding gifts a few rooms over, primed and ready to protect the Sultan and Hayat...once it sees them. Meanwhile, you are trampled to death in your attempt to hide under a nearby pew. Hopefully the statue will be able to do all the fighting for you... Continue to Pursuit of Mehmed below.
Taricus: [2]
Somehow you managed to get yourself integrated into the guards, wielding your own special brand of armor. Gleaming adamantium, with enchantments engraved into literally every available surface. Your straight sword and heater shield look hilariously out-dated compared to the guns clutched in every guards hands. Most people look on dubiously at your claims that it's the "Armaments of the Hero", and intelligent to boot. When the fighting breaks out, you're one of the first people to make your way to Hayat, and one of the last to reach her. Turns out your self-designed armor is a bit bulky and hard to move around in, but it does surprisingly tank a stray lightning blast without cooking you alive. Continue to Pursuit of Mehmed below.
Kadzar: [6]
Much like Taricus, you managed to get yourself integrated into the guards, wielding thick leather gloves and falcons rather than sword or rifle. These are specially trained falcons - Defender Falcons, with the sole intent of protecting Bjorn. One sits on each shoulder, one on each forearm, one on each wrist, and one on your head. It's getting pretty difficult to hold them all up, but once bullets start flying you know you've made the right choice. "Fly, my pretties!" you scream, and throw all seven falcons towards Bjorn. Continue to Duel of Bjorn and Hardrada below.
Kashyyk: [5]
You sit in the pews, a few rows behind the Sultan. You're decked out in a full adamantium kit, replete with sabre, pavise shield, a dozen firestorm grenades, a bandolier of Wands of Thunderbolt, and your own custom-designed "Lightning Repeater Rifle™". You take up quite a bit of space on the pew, but once bullets start flying you're glad for all the equipment. You see the King and Sultan fall - when Mehmed flees and Hardrada stays, it's a tough choice, but you ultimately decide to chase after Mehmed. He is a traitor, and he will not get far! Continue to Pursuit of Mehmed below.
Nuke: [4]
While other spent the week preparing their various little spells and tricks and weapons, you mediated and prayed. Your spell - Allawm Bila Rahma: "Merciless Consume" - will likely be your last, and so you've needed to steel yourself for what's to come. When the traitors strike and the fighting breaks out, you don't cast right away. You'll only get one shot, and you don't want to blow it too early. You pull back to a far corner of the room, preparing yourself for the grand finale of what's to come. Continue to Duel of Bjorn and Hardrada below.
Sensei: [2]
A relatively new addition to the design team, you managed to somehow snag a seat in the front row. You're sitting with the Arstotzkans, though no one can rightly say if they've ever seen you in the design room before. As soon as the first blast of lightning hits, you're up and running, preparing your specially concocted spell for this exact situation. Already a bubble shield is forming around you - designed to deflect attacks and protect anyone inside it. With any luck, you'll be able to save one of the heirs before their death can plunge the continent into another four decades of magical warfare. Continue to Pursuit of Mehmed below.
Andres: [6]
They called you crazy. "It'll never work," they said. "It's too top-heavy, why not give it treads instead?" Hah! Like they would know. "Why did you replace the hands with cannons? Why not actual hands?" Those people had no knowledge of warfare, not like you. Your weapon is a giant crystal mech - made of gleaming crystal that shined bright in the sunlit snow, it stands under a blanket in a shed a block away from the palace. As soon as the fighting breaks out, you're out the door and sprinting down the street to where you've hidden it. "The King is Weak, Hardrada is a Traitor, the Sultan and Hayat are even worse - Moskurg!" You arrive at where you've hidden your weapon away and clamber inside. This is going to be one interesting wedding... Continue to Duel of Bjorn and Hardrada below.
Madman: [2]
Really, who didn't see this coming? You practically predicted this rebellion happening in your sleep, and that's why you've got a spell prepared. Quickly, you drop to your knees and pull out a bit of chalk. It's kind of hard drawing a spell-circle while people fight and clamber around you, but you manage to get a semi-round shape on the ground and begin your prayers. It'll take you a few seconds to gather the necessary magical energy to fire it off, but once you do this should all be over. If only the Sultan had taken your advice and made it illegal to have murderous thoughts - that would have made things so much easier! Continue to Pursuit of Mehmed and Duel of Bjorn and Hardrada below.
RAM: [2]
Damn Moskurgers! You can't trust them - no loyalty. Slaying their own Sultan?! What barbarians! Luckily, you've prepared your own little retort to their disgusting religious magic. The Gray Crystal Goo - an insidious little spell that literally eats Moskurg magic. You quietly slip a small crystal seed out of a metal tin in your pocket. You crush it, then toss it in the air. You've done your work - now it's time to leave. Continue to Duel of Bjorn and Hardrada below.
BBBence1111: [5]
You are a foreigner, from a land far across the sea. Drawn to the continent by tales of magic, you found a place among Arstotzka with your impressive knowledge of mathematics and a latent magical talent. Now you are cursing your luck - the side you picked lost! Clearly there is only one thing to do. You've conspired with Hardrada and secured a position for yourself as a member of the High Command that will come about once the revolution is won, and as such you spent your time developing a more potent form of Arstotzka's staple fire magic. Named "Pyre", it is a green, insistent fireball that takes a page out of Moskurgs book of Alannar. The fire simply refuses to go out! Tendrils of green flames snake along your arms as you pool your magical ability and prepare for the fight ahead. Continue to Duel of Bjorn and Hardrada below.
Zanzetkuken: [1]
Chaos simply for chaos's sake is your goal - you've been delving into things you shouldn't have. You've stared into the abyss, and the abyss handed you an instruction manual. The war must continue; and now there are three (possibly four) factions to keep the fires burning! Too many important players are here right now, though, and if they fall, the game is all over. Laughing madly, you begin casting your Dimensional Portal to replace those who are about to die with exact copies of themselves from other dimensions. Why you are doing this isn't exactly clear, but it's not terribly important. Midway through casting the balcony beneath your feet gives out and you go tumbling to the floor. Your spell is interrupted, and rather than pluck others from this dimension and send them away, you yourself land in another world! You stand up, only to realize the terrible mistake you've made - the door closes behind you. You're all alone in the worst dimension possible - the "Cannala Dimension". You die instantly.
Jilladilla: [3]
You've spent some time developing further Arstotzka's original concept of the "Crystal Lance". With the foundation laid out for you, it's pretty easy to hammer out the finer details. Your Lance is now self-generating, and with the HonestStrike integration it will home in on any target you throw it at! You've taken up position on the upper balcony, and once the fighting breaks out you waste time. Instantly you begin conjuring and throwing crystal spears at anyone who happens to be wearing a bandana, be it red or blue. Loyalty to Forenia! Protect Hayat, protect Bjorn! Continue to Duel of Bjorn and Hardrada below.
VoidSlayer: [4]
You've spent your time working on something more immediately useful (albeit more morbid) than your cohorts. A healing wand, that relies on the same principle as the dogwood wands. Made out of a finely-carved human thighbone, you've already tested it on maimed soldiers with varying degrees of success and consent. You've been able to regrow arms, legs, eyes, and fingers - some even with bonus "Vitality Tumors™" to ensure a long and healthy life. When the heirs fall, you immediately leap from your spot in the pews and rush to their aid. Continue to Pursuit of Mehmed below.
Happerry: [5]
You happen to be standing by one of the exits when the fighting breaks out, desperately trying to get past the guards despite having lost your invitation. They don't seem to understand how important it is that you be allowed inside - the Sultan had specifically asked the design team to help oversee security during the wedding! The guards - both of whom happen to be wearing curious blue arm bands - keep you at bay, preventing you from entering, but you can see what happens over their shoulders. Mehmed, his blade deep in the Sultans stomach. Your eyes grow wide as the depth of the treachery hits you. Your goal had been to protect your ruler, and in that task you've failed. But, you can see Mehmed running this way in an attempt to escape justice. Your custom spell - Hero's Luck - fills your arms and legs with power. You crack your knuckles and turn your attention to the guards. You don't want anyone distracting you when you catch the traitor. Continue to Pursuit of Mehmed below.
Light Forger: [5]
It was a risky procedure, but it was the best way you could think to protect your country. You've built a glorious bronze statue, enchanted it thoroughly, then embedded a special crystal of your own design. Then came the spell - Anima Retinentia. Your mind escapes your body and anchors itself in the statue. Your new body is strong, powerful, and much, much, much more handsome. The joints creak whenever you move, but at least you can move; this had been a very real fear when developing the spell. You leave your old body behind and quietly insert yourself into the pile of gifts for the wedding. After all, what better gift than a life-long immortal servant? Once the newly-weds unwrap their gifts, they'll understand just how useful you can be! You only wish you were the only statue in the pile, since someone else had seen fit to gift an adamantium statue of a nude al-Mutriqa to the couple. Oh well, you'll just have to prove how much more useful you'd be than that dumb lump of adamantium. Hey, wait - is that Mehmed, running down the hall? Continue to Pursuit of Mehmed below.
ChiefWaffles: [6]
Screw Moskurg, and screw Forenia too! You're not going to live under the yoke of those southern oppressors, and you will certainly not pray to their disgusting god. You and a group of like-minded individuals have concocted your own secret faction - the Vaulters. Secretly, you and several others have quietly built the largest, most powerful crystal structure the continent has ever seen. Named the VSC SS50 "Vault", it will put only the most loyal of all Arstotzkans far outside the reach of Moskurg. It will put you in space. This design has been a long time coming, and already most of the structure has been built in secret under the waters of the frozen harbor. Designed to sustain 200 people indefinitely, the ship features a staggering amount of features that are too long to bear listing. A set of powerful vacuum-certified engines are strapped to the base of the artillery shell-shaped craft, and even now you're strapping into the pilots chair and beginning the final countdown while your companions finish up the last few details. Continue to Escape from Forenia below.
Andrea: [1]
You're far less skilled, but you help ChiefWaffles in the construction of the Vault. He does most of the work, but you help, some. You do a non-negligable amount of work assisting. Probably. As of right now you're sitting in the crew quarters, idly wondering where everyone is. You told the other 195 passengers that you'd be blasting off today...right? Actually, now that you think about it, did the secret messages you sent out say it was today, or next week? You glance behind you, where supplies for 200-odd people sit stacked and secured. Gosh, you sure hope they're gonna show up soon, or else this is going to get really awkward once the rest of you reach space... Continue to Escape from Forenia below.
Helmacon: [3]
Your aspect of the Vaulters mission is more militaristic. With your newly-designed space-capable V-ECT-0-5 dropship, you coordinate with other members of the Vaulter team to deploy armed forces around the city to raid Moskurg positions. The new dropship handles like a dream; with the help of other vaulters, you raid various museums and historical sites for valuable artifacts to bring with you to space. After all, it's important to maintain your history, after all. "Go, raid the Moskurg guards!" you call to the other members of the vaulter task force. "I'll take this load of paintings and carved stone statues back to the Vault. Remember; we blast off this time next week! Be back by then!" You pilot your craft back to the vault and dock with a specially-designed airlock. You'll unload this batch of artifacts, then go back to help with the raiding. Say, what's that rumbling noise? It sounds almost like the vault is about to take off. Continue to Escape from Forenia below.
Gwolfski: [2]
Your job in the Vaulter faction was the design and installation of the VSC-OBCP-1 teleporter; a rare and crucial component of the vault. With this, you'll be able to instantaneously move supplies around, pull supplies from earth, and even bombard from orbit! You're not sure it really works since you never got time to test it, but by golly you got it installed! You've got a whole week to make sure it's properly working, so you're not too stressed. Hmmm...that sounds almost like a countdown, doesn't it...? Continue to Escape from Forenia below.
Fallacy: [6]
Your job was the most important of them all. The Aetherfarm is a special farm based on the dogwood wands to feed the 200 or so people who will be living in space for who knows how long! It's large, complicated, and it works perfectly. Even better, you've developed it so that you can insert circuit diagrams into the machine to dictate aspects about the crops you'll be growing! You can mix and match crops, change the size, the flavor, the number of seeds produced, the color, and even the effects they'll have on the human body. The Vaulters don't know what sort of crazy stuff happens to the human body in space, so that last detail is super important. If people start growing three heads or getting sick, you'll want the food to be able to prevent those nasty side effects. You quietly slot an extra circuit diagram of your own design into the Aetherfarms library and smile to yourself. They wouldn't listen - your designs never saw fruition, but now? Now is the dawn of a new era. The others don't get a choice in whether your achieve your design goals now - not with your subtle control over their food source. Continue to Escape from Forenia below.
Post by: evictedSaint on September 23, 2017, 08:33:28 pm
Mehmed flees the throne room, leaving the chaos of his actions behind him. On the dais, Hayat is struggling to stand. al-Mutriqa, himself used to the repeated blasts and explosions of open combat, stands before she does and helps his protege to her feet. Instantly a half-dozen arcs of lightning target the two; apparently Egan_BW hadn't been very discriminatory when it came to handing out his Single Action Allah handguns. Luckily, Sensei reaches the dais just in time. His spell shivers into view just as the first bolt of lightning hits. The bubble shield thrums as the bolt ricochets off and through the ceiling above. The rest of the shots bounce off and land randomly around the room. Splinters of wood and stone shower the dense fighting below, but the shield holds for now. Voidslayer arrives next, eagerly waving his human bone wand. Without waiting for Hayat's permission he gives it a wave, instantly healing her broken arm and whatever other ailments she'd sustained from the exploding throne - sadly without any of the "healing tumors" the wand occasionally produced. A few other loyalists make their way through the fighting to their new Sultana and form a defensive perimeter. They can only do so much, though - Sensei's shield is showing signs of failing, and it can't cover everyone.
"Mehmed!" Hayat cries, her hands curling into tight fists. "After my traitorous brother - he cannot be allowed to escape!"
The group quickly retreats to the exit Mehmed had escaped through, just as Sensei's shield gives out and he's killed by an R1. Happerry is standing by the exit, pinned against the wall by two of the revolutionary guards. His spell - Hero's Luck - lets him dodge just at the last second to avoid getting stabbed with a halberd, but it's not very good for offensive combat. Kashyyk's Lightning Repeater makes quick work of the guards, and the group charges down the hallway after Mehmed. They pass through the gift room, where a bronze statue and an adamantium statue are in the middle of a brutal fist fight. They were clearly enchanted, but must of somehow accidentally registered one another as hostile. A few of the group pause to take in the spectacle, and al-Mutriqa gives a cheer as the adamantium statue lands a solid right hook on the bronze one. The tide of battle shifts, however, when the bronze statue manages to sweep the legs of the nude adamantium al-Mutriqa and pry off its head. The bronze statue gives a triumphant roar, only for Egan_BW to blast it to slag with his SAA sidearm. The bronze statue had crystal insets, Egan argues. It was probably an Arstotzkan.
Meanwhile, Mehmed has made it outside. Screams, explosions, and the faint chink of metal-on-metal can be heard emanating from the palace, and the guards outside are all on alert already. Mehmed approaches the commander and quickly reports - the Arstotzkans have conspired with Hayat to kill the Sultan! Sack the city, kill his sister, and destroy any Arstotzkans you can find, he orders. The Moskurg guards move quickly, and within minutes the fighting from the palace has spilled out into the city streets. The city which had just begun to heal is now once again in flames. The small group has some minor success in turning a few of the mis-informed soldiers to their side. The fact that al-Mutriqa stands tall and loudly proclaims Hayat to be the true heir helps, but Mehmed's insidious lie has already taken root. Moskurgs fight Moskurgs fight Arstotzkans fight Arstotzkans. Even worse is the sudden addition of lightning strikes, arcing down out of the blue sky and hitting indiscriminately. Dozens are struck at a time, and no one is quite sure who's casting the spell. Taricus defends Hayat like a story-book knight. His adamantium plate armor is slow and cumbersome, but nearly invulnerable. His sword, as it turns out, is intelligent as he claimed. It doesn't really do much besides scream in panic whenever he stabs someone, but it is intelligent at least. Voidslayer does his best to heal the wounded as they fight their way to the command center set up just outside of the city, but he's in the middle of regrowing a pair of legs on an Arstotzkan soldier when he's mistaken for a traitor and stabbed through the back by a halberd. Happerry uses his auto-dodging spell to avoid being shot or stabbed, but accidentally dodges off one of the still-intact walls on the edge of the city and plunges to his death below. By the time they reach the command tent, only Taricus, Kashyyk, Egan_BW, and al-Mutriqa are still with Hayat. Mehmed is nowhere to be found though, and Hayat blasts over a few tents in anger. As her bubbled-over rage subsides, she looks up to see something unusual in the sky. Without a word to al-Mutriqa or anyone else, she sprints to where her personal adamantium jet is stored and takes to the skies.
In the forest to the south, the last remaining Phoenix in the Moskurg army finishes refueling and rises into the air. Mehmed stands at the prow with his hands clasped behind his back. The crew have their mission - given to them by the son of the Sultan himself! Slowly they drift over the city, their payload sloshing heavily in the tank. Burn the city of traitors; that is their goal. Without hesitation the turret gunner on the bottom of the ship begins spraying the city below, managing to coat much of the south side of the city before a stray fire ignites the slick. The entire southern side of the city is engulfed in flames, and they move on to the next section. Before they can cross to the northern side, they notice a fast-approaching speck above and behind. It's Hayat! The crew quickly scrambles to the defense and lightning bolts blast up and away at the heiress. She's moving too fast, and the lightning arcs harmlessly past. It becomes readily apparent that she's moving far too quickly to dodge - she's going to hit the ship! The men scramble away from the soon-to-be impact site, and Mehmed watches silently as his sister crashes her adamantium jet engine into the side of the ship. It tears through the tank, and a stray spark ignites the Alannar inside. It explodes with shocking violence, killing Mehmed and the rest of the crew. After what seems like an eternity the adamantium shrapnel and flaming chemicals descend over the city in a blanket. A small, dark spec floats down to the north - it's Hayat, having jumped free at the last possible second and using her control of the wind to slow her descent. Even so, she's falling alarmingly fast. The scarred, singed Sultana plummets towards the harbor far below.
Duel of Bjorn and Hardrada
In the palace, the fighting has spread from the throne room. Hardrada has the support of a large faction of the Arstotzkan nobility, and the translated to a large chunk of Arstotzkan soldiers. Myark is a whirlwind, having conjured crystal axes into each hand. Traitorous soldiers in various states of crystal plate can't stand against him, though each kill leaves him moving a bit slower. He's not as young as he once was, and it's starting to show. This at least leaves Bjorn and Hardrada to fight uninterrupted; the bear of a chieftain has anti-magic gems hanging around his neck, leaving Bjorn without his magical abilities when close up. Bjorn, surprisingly, is holding his own - a fallen R1 rifle is clutched in his hands, and though it doesn't have a blade he's managing to deflect Hardrada's blows as they come. He's stronger than his frail frame would suggest, but distracted as he is he can't defend himself from other traitors, and Myark can't keep them all at bay - an opportunistic soldier with a red arm-band around his arm pops over one of the balconies above and fires off his R1 at the undefended heir. Out of nowhere, a falcon swoops down just in time and catches the round through its body. It falls to the floor as six more falcons descend on the would-be sniper, picking him up and carrying him screaming through a hole in the roof. Jilladilla takes inspiration from the sniper and prepares a Crystal Homing Lance, aiming carefully at Hardrada. He's attacked by a pair of revolutionaries in full plate, throwing off his aim at the last second. The lance goes careening off through the room, blasting through RAM as he tries to make his way out of the throne room. RAM explodes into chunky salsa, and all looks lost for Jilladilla - until BBBence1111 comes to accidentally save the day. The guards prepare to strike, only to be engulfed in a sudden ball of sticky green flame. It eats through their armor quickly and their screams die down equally fast, but the flames don't go out. They leap eagerly to the wooden floor around Jilladilla, trapping him in the corner. He begins to desperately blast apart the floor around him to keep the flames at bay.
BBBence1111 turns his attention to the duel going on in the center of the throne room. Despite his disadvantage, Bjorn has found the time to slam another round into his R1 between deflecting strikes. He fires from the hip, cutting through Hardrada's leg. The chieftain roars, but continues fighting. Madman, shockingly, is still alive, kneeling off to one side in a hastily-drawn chalk circle praying vehemently to Allah for "divine wrath". His prayers seem to be working, as thunderous booms and cracks rip off like firecrackers outside the palace. The ceiling of the palace - now partially engulfed in green flames - takes further damage as lightning strikes blast apart the roof. One bolt manages to snake its way through a hole in the roof and hit Madman himself. The crazed fanatic vanishes into a red mist of blood and white-hot plasma.
The entire palace is falling apart now. Flaming timbers fall from above, crushing a few soldiers as well as almost killing BBBence1111. Myark, having killed most of the men who came with Hardrada, turns to his protege. Myark is streaked with blood and gore, but not all of it is his enemies. Panting, he watches as Bjorn fires off another R1 round through Hardrada's shoulder, knocking the traitorous chief to the ground. Bjron calmly loads another round as the palace burns down around him, his blood-red eyes focused on the man lying before him.
"Hardrada," Bjorn calls over the crackling of flames. "You've betrayed your King. You've attempted to unrighteous seize the Kingdom of Arstotzka for yourself. And you've killed my father. For this, I sentence you to death."
The chieftain spits a wad of blood and gives Bjorn a red-streaked grin. "Do it, then."
Bjorn lifts his rifle and calmly aims the barrel at Hardrada's head. Green embers trickle down around the two as the Kingdom burns around them, and Bjorn places his finger on the trigger. A boom outside the palace vibrates the remaining support timbers, and the ceiling creaks ominously.
A sudden explosion rips through the stained-glass window! Standing there, silhouetted against the setting sun, is Andres in his giant crystal mech. He lifts one giant mechanical arm, and an HA1 round explodes out of the barrel and wipes out an entire squad of traitors on the upper balcony. He cackles wildly, swinging his other arm up and blasting apart a fallen support timber that had trapped Jilladilla. For Nuke, this is what he'd been waiting for. An Arstotzkan super weapon? Now is the time for his special spell, the one he'd been saving this whole time. "Allah, lend me strength! I call upon Allawm Bila Rahma: Merciless Censure!"
Pure, divine light engulfs Nuke. Lightning crackles down his arms and legs, amplifying his own natural magical ability as he becomes a living avatar for his God's wrath. Andres, his HA1 arm automatically reloaded, quickly aims and fires a KPD-powered explosive shell at the threat. Nuke raises his hand and catches the shell in an aura of blue lightning, spins it around, and easily fires it back. The shell explodes against Andres' armor, sending the mech staggering back into the wall. The round nearly disabled him, and another blast like that would take him out!
"Allah empowers me! I am his Divine Will, and you will beg him for his forgiveness! As I breathe, your magic will be no more!"
A glowing aura emanates outward, sapping the magical ability of everyone in the room. Nuke laughs, his eyes aglow with divine energy...only to pause as he notices a crystal shard growing on his forearm. He scratches at it, but it only spreads to his other hand.
"What is this - no! NO! NOOOOO - "
Within seconds, RAM's crystal magic has engulfed him, and he ceases all movement. The crystal statue falls to the floor, and the divine energy ceases. Andres, in his massive crystal mech, pushes himself off the wall and staggers over to where Bjorn is standing. "My King! We must escape - the city burns! The palace won't last much longer!"
Bjorn looks up with admiration at the vehicle of death and destruction Andres is piloting. Truly, this is the type of weapon mages should be wielding, rather than merely powering artillery or trains. He glances down at Hardrada, and gives the trigger a quick squeeze before turning to help the wounded Myark across the shattered floor to the crystalline mech. Jilladilla, BBBence1111 (who decided it would probably be best to join the winning side), and Myark escape with Bjorn on Andres' mech as the palace crumbles to a pile of burning rubble behind them. Most of the city is alight by now, with only the north harbor the only thing not burning. The group slowly makes their way there, eliminating resistance with the mech's HA1's and their own natural fire magic. The rest on the frozen shore and take a brief respite. They only just escaped with their lives.
Just as they think things have finally calmed down, a faint rumble echoes across the harbor. They watch in awe as a massive crystal structure rises up out of the water - tall and pointed like a tower, but moving under its own power. Slowly, the construct lifts out of the water and into the air above.
Escape from Forenia
The Vault rumbles as ChiefWaffles completes the countdown. The massive KPD's generate a tremendous amount of thrust, drawing power from nearly a hundred Aether Reactors. It lifts up out of the harbor slowly and gains speed, reaching higher than anyone has ever gone before. The g-force presses the passengers against their chairs, the floor, the walls - whatever they happened to be next too. Forenia shrinks down to a dot below them, and soon the curvature of the earth is visible outside the clear crystal windows. Blue gives way to black as they continue rising up, up, up, until the whole earth is visible beneath. Their mathemagicians had already figured out the basics of orbital mechanics, so the space ship continues firing for a bit longer until they're moving around the planet in a circle. The engines finally cut off, and for a moment everything is silent.
ChiefWaffles pumps his fist in the temperature-controlled air. Success!!! They'd done it; their plan had worked! He unties his seatbelt and giggles as zero-g lets him float around the cabin. Now for stage two of his plan - the party! He makes his way along the handrails in the corridor to the passenger bay. He pauses to straighten his flight suit, run his fingers through his hair, and rehearse his speech. "Today is a glorious day for all of Arstotzka," he mutters to himself, then with a single triumphant push he dives through the doors into the passenger bay.
It's empty, save for a single Andrea buckled into one of the seats.
A long, painful moment of silence goes by.
"Where is everyone?" Waffles asks, finally.
"Hm? I don't - what are you talking about?" Andrea looks away guiltily.
"The passengers! The loyal Arstotzkans, who were going to follow us into space, away from Moskurg and those who would have us surrender to them! Where are they?!"
"Oh! Oh - are we in space, right now?"
Another moment of silence.
"Because - because I thought that was next week, not today. And when you were telling me about our launch plans, you should have been more clear, Waffles. That's how mistakes are made, you know."
"Don't tell me everyone is still back on earth."
"Everyone is still back on earth."
ChiefWaffles pinches the bridge of his nose, lets out a long sigh, and relaxes.
"Okay, well this...isn't a disaster. If Gwolfski got the teleporter working, we can still beam people aboard, right? Let's...let's just see who all is aboard, then figure out what to do."
After taking inventory, the crew of the Vault is tallied up. ChiefWaffles, Andrea, Helmacon, Gwolfski, and Fallacy all made it on board - only 2.5% of the intended personnel. The teleporter, after some initial testing, turns out to be non-functional. That's okay, Gwolfski explains - he can have it up and running within the week. The crew has plenty of supplies - nearly 40 times as much as they'd need, without the additional passengers. And more importantly, Fallacy has the Aetherfarm working and a nice seedbank built up. They won't starve to death, and with magic they can easily repair the ship, maintain air supplies, and even make modifications as needed! Really, despite not having everyone they intended to, things aren't so bad, assuming you don't mind a vegan diet. Their first meal consists of vegetable and fruits grown from Fallacy's Aetherfarm - everyone agrees it was delicious, even though the use of Nepeta Cataria was an odd choice for a spice. Regardless, Fallacy includes it in the second meal. This time people don't complain, and by the third meal everyone agrees catnip does make an excellent spice.
By that time next week, the teleporter still isn't finished. Gwolfski ended up playing with the loose wires rather than actually finishing it up. That's fine, though - the crew agrees they didn't really want to crowd their ship with other people after all. Besides, if there were more people, then they'd take up all the good sun-bathing spots by the windows! By the next week they begin noticing their eyes becoming quite keen in the dark. They write it off as space adaption and focus on the more important problems of their time in space - no fish! And the Aetherfarm can't exactly grow milk, either. And curse ChiefWaffles rigorous inspection of the ship that prevented rodents from hitch-hiking a free ride into space! By the end of the month, Fallacy's goal is completed.
He'd done it. He'd created cat-hybrids.
Epilogue soon to follow.
Post by: Andres on September 24, 2017, 01:58:55 am
Post by: VoidSlayer on September 24, 2017, 03:09:11 am
GLORY TO CATOTZKA!
Fixed that for you.
Post by: Jilladilla on September 24, 2017, 03:20:31 am
GLORY TO CATOTZKA!
Fixed that for you.
No, I believe the proper phrase is 'GLORY TO UNITED FORENIA!!', considering Andres's actions in the finale.
Post by: VoidSlayer on September 24, 2017, 03:29:06 am
Apologies!
Post by: Andres on September 24, 2017, 03:37:20 am
My actions in the finale included killing traitors, Moskurgs, and rescuing Bjorn. The two people who wanted a united Forenia - the old King and Sultan - are both dead.GLORY TO CATOTZKA!
Fixed that for you.
No, I believe the proper phrase is 'GLORY TO UNITED FORENIA!!', considering Andres's actions in the finale.
Glory to Arstotzka.
Post by: RAM on September 24, 2017, 04:06:56 am
Post by: BBBence1111 on September 24, 2017, 05:12:22 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on September 24, 2017, 10:22:13 am
Glory to CatVault.
Post by: Kadzar on September 24, 2017, 06:12:36 pm
Post by: evictedSaint on September 24, 2017, 09:28:45 pm
The city of Arstotzka burns.
Black, oily smoke curls up over the city as the Alannar from Mehmed's Phoenix does its work. The palace itself is a pile of rubble wreathed in green flames, which even days later continue to burn. The few ships anchored in the harbor are all capsized or sunk from the sudden evacuation of the Vaulters group.
Moskurg loyalists fight Moskurg traitors fight Arstotzkan loyalists fight Arstotzkan traitors fight Arstotzkan Vaulters.
The Vaulters make good use of Helmacon's dropship, hitting isolated groups and taking up the most defensive locations in the city. They're few in number, however; less than 200, and each skirmish whittles them down to fewer members. When the Vault disappears into the sky without them many out-right surrender. The Arstotzkan rebels vastly out-number the loyalists, but with Hardrada's death and Andre's crystal mech Bjorn makes quick work of any who stand against his rightful rule. By the end of the day Arstotzka's remaining forces are severely reduced, but all under the same flag.
For Moskurg, the rebels were fewer in number to begin with, and many were simply misinformed by Mehmed's treachery. Once Hayat flew up to deal with her brother, al-Mutriqa made use of the Shortwave Teletalk to rally any mages who were listening on the broadband. With Mehmed's death and the might of all of Moskurg's mages rallied behind him, al-Mutriqa put an end to the rebellion with surprising ease.
Hayat, luckily, was saved by her betrothed. After plummeting from the sky and landing in the the harbor, Bjorn quickly dove into the freezing waters and pulled her free as the Vaulters ship disappeared into the sky above. Andres was quite upset that Bjorn risked his life to save the Moskurg Sultana. He argued fervently to let the girl die then and there and allow Arstotzka to steam-roll the lightly-defended Moskurg capitol to the south, but Bjorn denied his request. Though the marriage ceremony had been interrupted, he still made a sacred vow before his father, the nobles of Arstotzka, and even Moskurgs God that his Kingdom would be passed on to her children. There be none so cursed as an oathbreaker - he would not follow the same path that led Hardrada to ruin.
The fires in the city mostly went out within the next two days, and the green flames that had engulfed the palace went out five days after that. The palace was little more than a charred pit by that point, but there were more pressing matters than the loss of Arstotzka's history.
Once again the living began the arduous task of burying the dead. Large portions of the city were ash, and in those areas only crystal buildings stood. The captured Vaulters and remaining Arstotzkan nobility who'd rebelled were tried and executed for traitors and oathbreakers, as well as the Moskurgers who'd willingly followed Mehmed in the assassination of the Sultan. Rebuilding went slower this time, as there were fewer mages left alive to assist in the reconstruction. Moskurg kept the skies clear and churned out as much adamantium as they could, and Arstotzka raised crystal buildings as quickly as possible.
Bjorn and Hayat concluded their arranged marriage shortly after control had been regained, opting for a small, quick ceremony on the frozen shore. The loyalists of the design teams were in attendance; or at least those who were still alive. Kadzar, who'd managed to escape after loosing his falcons ended up weeping softly as they said their "I do's". Egan_BW participated in the security of the event, this time giving out his Single Action Allah's to only those who'd proved their loyalty. Taricus stood by in his adamantium armor, a thick cloth wrapped around his sword - it helped muffle the screaming, which had not stopped since the fighting. Kashyyk was unfortunately unable to attend, as he'd opened up a shop in the ruined bazaar hawking his Lightning Repeater rifles as "Home Defense - for when the looters come!" Andres was likewise unable to attend as Bjorn had ordered the production of more crystal mechs to rebuild the defense of the city. It was highly suspected that Andres' unhappiness with the impending alliance made him unwelcome, but those were merely rumors. Jilladilla stood by with BBBence1111; Jilladilla had become quick friends with BBBence1111 after the rescue during the duel between Bjorn and Hardrada. BBBence1111, ever the opportunist, quickly agreed that he'd meant to attack the guards rather than burn Jilladilla alive, and that he was most certainly a supporter of Bjorn and the new Arstotzka and that he would never, ever betray his lord in any way, ever.
Aboard the Vaulters ship, the crew has begun to notice the subtle changes. Though they were first dismissed as an adaptation to the zero-g of space, the crucial detail that revealed the magical nature of their changes was the development of whiskers. It took a while to pinpoint how the changes were occurring, but by the time their ears had become pointy and their pupils morphed to vertical slits they realized it was the Aetherfarm. Fallacy was promptly ejected out the airlock and the crew set to work trying to reverse-engineer the farm to reverse the effects. Sadly, Fallacy had independently developed the farm himself, and his notes were indecipherable scratches littered with doodles of cats. Work on the teleporter (or what little work was being done) was paused to figure out this problem. It is unknown whether the crew succeeded, but the world can rest easy knowing all of Arstotzka's prized artifacts are orbiting earth with the best and brightest.
Once the marriage had been concluded and the city had been stabilized, Hayat proposed that the two kingdoms build a new capitol for the Unified Forenia, on the eastern coast where the grassy plains would make growth easy. There both rulers could reside and rule their respective realms while still honoring their marriage. The new capitol goes up quickly, using in large parts Arstotzka's crystal and Moskurg's adamantium. The city included features such as an airship tower where ships could park without having to land, a university that combined both realms education systems and furthered their understanding of magic, and cutting-edge defensive emplacements that made use of both sides combined weaponry. Integration of both Arstotzka and Moskurg went slowly, as both sides were keen to remember the rather gruesome execution of captured prisoners. Brawls, shoot-outs, and stand-offs were a common sight in the new capitol, as well as rather vicious rioting. Attempts to stifle rioting only resulted in more brutal, vicious riots, so a compromise was made. The Ministry of Riots restricted rioting to a certain section of the city at a time, and only on weekends to prevent the disruption of commerce. The solution surprised everyone by working, and "Major-League Rioting" became the realm's new favorite past-time.
News came slowly from across the sea. Apparently the exportation of magical artifacts had kick-started a new "magical revolution" around the world, particularly in a set of islands to the west between Forenia and China. These reports were worrisome, but for now the magical firestorm seemed contained to a small, shitty set of islands called "Turbados". For now, Forenia was at peace for the first time in a long time, and that was a welcome change.
And thus ends the tale of Wands Race.
I hope I did it justice, and that those who played along enjoyed themselves. I'd like to thank Iituem for starting the game and permitting me to take it over once he was indisposed - the setting was wonderfully unique from most Arms Races on the forum at that time. It was quite a bit more work than I was expecting, but I'm happy to have finished and join the ranks of those who have actually ended an Arms Race. Perhaps one day I'll elevate that status to "People Who Have Both Started and Finished an Arms Race", but I am content for the moment with the more humble of those two achievements. This marks the official end to this game, and I encourage people to read both threads if they find the time and inclination. The way both sides went about developing their weapons is wonderfully unique and quite entertaining to read.
If you enjoyed my writing (as contrived, stilted, and cobbled-together as it may be) I would encourage you to read The Littlest Cheesemaker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136384.0) - a webcomic I've been working on for quite a while! I'd actually taken a break from it to work on this game, but now that it's finished I expect I'll give TLCM some TLC.
If you enjoyed my writing (as contrived, stilted, and cobbled-together as it may be) I would encourage you to read The Littlest Cheesemaker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136384.0) - a webcomic I've been working on for quite a while! I'd actually taken a break from it to work on this game, but now that it's finished I expect I'll give TLCM some TLC.
Thank you all for reading!
Glory to Forenia!
Glory to Forenia!
Post by: RAM on September 24, 2017, 10:50:56 pm
[centre]If you enjoyed my writing (as contrived, stilted, and cobbled-together as it may be) I would encourage you to read The Littlest Cheesemaker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=136384.0) - a webcomic I've been working on for quite a while! I'd actually taken a break from it to work on this game, but now that it's finished I expect I'll give TLCM some TLC.[/center]And there goes what I was wanting to say but couldn't figure out how to do so politely. A very emphatic +1!
Much sorrow that my design rolled too badly to achieve proper self-sufficiency. Grey goo is best goo! I can but hope that someday Nuke will be exploded and my crystals can continue their good work.
Also a lament that nobody repurposed the meteoric wand.
Oh, and massive congrats to Evicted!
Post by: Iituem on September 25, 2017, 06:37:13 am
Post by: FallacyofUrist on September 25, 2017, 08:12:13 am
These reports were worrisome, but for now the magical firestorm seemed contained to a small, shitty set of islands called "Turbados".... sequel hook?
Post by: Gwolfski on September 25, 2017, 12:21:21 pm
These reports were worrisome, but for now the magical firestorm seemed contained to a small, shitty set of islands called "Turbados".... sequel hook?
Post by: Kadzar on September 25, 2017, 05:25:50 pm