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Author Topic: What turns you off about DF?  (Read 298338 times)

Thundrim

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1215 on: February 01, 2010, 10:54:59 am »


When starting out, it was somewhat confusing to have to expand let's say farms through one set of keys, when you could set up other areas just by dragging the cursor and make almost instant squares. I guess navigating through the different interface modes required a bit of study. Found the Wiki though, and then things proceeded rather well.

To say the Wiki was and is helpful, is an understatement. To look up what the different workshops did, and how they related to the other ones, was a great help. I'm sadly one of those graphic-huggers, and as such require a set of composed pixels in a rudimentary shape illustrating the action, to carry on without a tantrum.   

Finding a site with the proper resources can be a pain in the Gluteus Maximus this very day, but quite frankly, you tend to be more picky as time marches on, it's a pain to generate a map in let's say Civ 4 with the desired shape and form, so it's perhaps as much a problem with the player as with the game. ;-)

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Omegastick

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1216 on: February 01, 2010, 11:32:43 am »

When I was a new player the worldgen and embark nearly scared me off. They made me stop playing for a week in fact, until I found the wiki and started following tutorials.
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Deon

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1217 on: February 01, 2010, 01:37:42 pm »

Thundrim: I think it will become even worse in the new version :). Yes, we will get more different new features everywhere, but now we will want not only magma and underground rivers, but these features as well :). => Tons of regens

Also, I still look in the wiki to check the values of stones and other minor things. It's really 200% useful.
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Puzzlemaker

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1218 on: February 01, 2010, 02:43:19 pm »

The User Interface.

 :( :-\ :'(
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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1219 on: February 01, 2010, 03:41:16 pm »

The right order:
 :( :-\ :'( :( :) :D ;D
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G-Flex

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1220 on: February 01, 2010, 03:50:52 pm »

Thundrim: I think it will become even worse in the new version :). Yes, we will get more different new features everywhere, but now we will want not only magma and underground rivers, but these features as well :). => Tons of regens

How does that result in "tons of regens" when all or most of those features, including magma, will be on essentially every embark area?

Oh, and there won't be any underground rivers at all.

I think you're just a bit confused about how the new underground system works.


Making custom reactions or editing microcline to be a flux material solves the flux problem, but I still want a map with everything on it.

I don't think DF should ever allow this, personally.

Giving you everything no matter where you are makes site choice effectively meaningless, and if that happens, civs can never have conflicts over resources, and all the detail put into the geographical/geological features will be moot, not to mention the basic strategy involved in choosing a site that best fits what you want to do and adapting to it.
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Durin

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1221 on: February 01, 2010, 06:25:07 pm »

Thundrim: I think it will become even worse in the new version :). Yes, we will get more different new features everywhere, but now we will want not only magma and underground rivers, but these features as well :). => Tons of regens

How does that result in "tons of regens" when all or most of those features, including magma, will be on essentially every embark area?

Oh, and there won't be any underground rivers at all.

I think you're just a bit confused about how the new underground system works.


Making custom reactions or editing microcline to be a flux material solves the flux problem, but I still want a map with everything on it.

I don't think DF should ever allow this, personally.

Giving you everything no matter where you are makes site choice effectively meaningless, and if that happens, civs can never have conflicts over resources, and all the detail put into the geographical/geological features will be moot, not to mention the basic strategy involved in choosing a site that best fits what you want to do and adapting to it.

That's all well and good, but you can't even buy the stuff from other regions at an exorbitant price.  I am only just now hearing that the new underground is totally different, so I guess I will suspend judgment, but to my way of thinking, yes...  You should be able to find a site with everything the game has to offer without having to regen worlds continually. 

My new pet peeve is balance.  Dogs are not as fast as dwarfs.  I don't care how frightfully experienced a dwarf is, it does not outrun a dog.  Now, I've never seen a kobold, but in my humble opinion same concept applies.

Also, trapped dwarfs due to pathing.  I don't find it "fun". I find it annoying and emblematic of what happens when one person tries to do what a team of people ought to be doing.  This should have been fixed like... when it was first noted to occur.  It's just dumb.  It is not a challenge; it does not add to the character of the game; it is not a particularly hard nut to crack code wise.  It is infuriating and I hates it my precious.  KILLS THE BAGGINSES!!!!

Er.. ahem.  Sorry.

Those are the two highest at this point. 
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nenjin

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1222 on: February 01, 2010, 07:31:22 pm »

Balance, as broad as that term is, is just another symptom of how big the development load is for DF. "Animals" from a true balance perspective, are broke in more ways that one. Let them breed uncontrolled for 5 years and you can have a brainless military 10x the size of your fortress. I don't care how bad ass that troll is, throw 50 warhounds just at him and he's dead.

So I try not to take balance too seriously, because the lack of balance is what makes DF fun in the end. It's what lets you do all sorts of broken and ultimately pointless things.

My biggest objection to the speed difference between your average dwarves and dogs isn't that its unrealistic...it's that my dogs assigned to protect important dwarves are never there when I need them.

The pathing AI just needs another pass, like half of the game. If you choose to let one particular problem annoy you, it's a crap shoot when it will actually get development time back into it.

Although yeah, this particular one has been bugging me too lately. Trying to finish off an expansion to my fortress gates (again) and constructing one critical block results in a trapped worker.
After racing to get the worker out of the spot by breaking a hole in my defenses, no one will clear the rubble so I can plug the gap. So my defenses are open and the goblins can side-step my trap field, and the trader just showed up with their customary 17 goblins. Lovely. It made me put the game down last night (that and the time) because I just didn't want to deal with the hassle of it. 

I guess a real pet peeve of mine is that dwarves tend to go after objects on z-levels above them rather than actually evaluating what's underground vs above ground, what's in a stockpile, what's not in a stockpile....I'm sure it saves on processing....but I have soldiers during siege conditions leaving my fortress to grab a shield that's been there since the start of the game. That's just bloody infuriating, especially when I have 15 shields SITTING IN THE ARMORY NEXT TO THE MAIN ARTERIAL OF THE WHOLE FORTRESS, TWO STEPS FROM WHERE I ACTIVATED THEM. I've screamed at dwarves more than once for that, and is the primary reason I scumsave, usually because I don't know about until I get the notice they're bleeding to death.

I know I should be using orders and forbidding/claiming left and right...but juggling all that for a yearly siege is just another set of tedious labors the player has to handle. Hopefully that gets addressed in full by the whole "dwarves sorting out their own equipment."
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 07:46:09 pm by nenjin »
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Durin

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1223 on: February 02, 2010, 01:12:22 am »

Balance, as broad as that term is, is just another symptom of how big the development load is for DF. "Animals" from a true balance perspective, are broke in more ways that one. Let them breed uncontrolled for 5 years and you can have a brainless military 10x the size of your fortress. I don't care how bad ass that troll is, throw 50 warhounds just at him and he's dead.

So I try not to take balance too seriously, because the lack of balance is what makes DF fun in the end. It's what lets you do all sorts of broken and ultimately pointless things.

My biggest objection to the speed difference between your average dwarves and dogs isn't that its unrealistic...it's that my dogs assigned to protect important dwarves are never there when I need them.

The pathing AI just needs another pass, like half of the game. If you choose to let one particular problem annoy you, it's a crap shoot when it will actually get development time back into it.

Although yeah, this particular one has been bugging me too lately. Trying to finish off an expansion to my fortress gates (again) and constructing one critical block results in a trapped worker.
After racing to get the worker out of the spot by breaking a hole in my defenses, no one will clear the rubble so I can plug the gap. So my defenses are open and the goblins can side-step my trap field, and the trader just showed up with their customary 17 goblins. Lovely. It made me put the game down last night (that and the time) because I just didn't want to deal with the hassle of it. 

I guess a real pet peeve of mine is that dwarves tend to go after objects on z-levels above them rather than actually evaluating what's underground vs above ground, what's in a stockpile, what's not in a stockpile....I'm sure it saves on processing....but I have soldiers during siege conditions leaving my fortress to grab a shield that's been there since the start of the game. That's just bloody infuriating, especially when I have 15 shields SITTING IN THE ARMORY NEXT TO THE MAIN ARTERIAL OF THE WHOLE FORTRESS, TWO STEPS FROM WHERE I ACTIVATED THEM. I've screamed at dwarves more than once for that, and is the primary reason I scumsave, usually because I don't know about until I get the notice they're bleeding to death.

I know I should be using orders and forbidding/claiming left and right...but juggling all that for a yearly siege is just another set of tedious labors the player has to handle. Hopefully that gets addressed in full by the whole "dwarves sorting out their own equipment."

I believe in my heart of hearts that proper balance does not lead to more problems, but less.  In the aforementioned example, a troll should be able to squash a half dozen dogs at a time.  I had a dragon invasion for the first time today... very anticlimactic.  He belched flame once, and I can't even tell who at, supposedly.  No one appears to have even been singed.  Then three legendary wrestlers killed him without incident.

Wrestlers.

Is there some reason the dragon is smaller than a wagon? 

Anyhow... we'll see.  I have some pet construction projects I want to do before DF will be a complete loss to me, and I cannot complain at all given the entertainment I have gotten out of it, but my involvement will likely slack off considerable after that if some of the really basic stuff is not handled.  This stuff gets more and more important the further you try to expand the arcs.

And the single best thing about this game is how it generates stories, and there's barely anything to make sure you can actually FIND all the stories you generate.  I can't count on my fingers and toes all the times someone has died and I have to shut down the whole game, save, restart, abandon fortress, go slogging through the history in legends mode, just to get an idea WHO killed the person to beg in with...???

I respect the vision and abilities of the folks here, but there is a reason undertakings like this tend to be done by teams...  I dunno.  We will see what it looks like when the next version is out.  But unless the army arc is more challenging than I imagine, it will just be redundant.  All the combat is busted due to lack of realism, hence a lack of the feeling of immersion. 

I have left off playing online games of various types on much the same lines.  It gets to a point where for whatever reason, no one wants to listen anymore.  Dogs being faster than dwarfs is BASIC.  Dragons not being kill-able by a handful of wrestlers is BASIC. 

Along the lines of your shield, I had a chamber I had dug out too openly for my magma supply to full, so I made it a little maze that channeled the magma back and forth to maximize the number of magma driven forges etc I could have in one spot.  In the process, I used some doors so my dwarfs did not have to walk in and out of the maze I was creating following the whole route.  I began backing the doors out and replacing them with walls.  The dwarfs refused to remove the doors.  I built an extra furniture storage.  They still refused.  I built a furniture storage specifically FOR doors.  They removed all but one door and put them all in the non-door-specific furniture storage...?

I'll never know why they left the last door.  The storage spot for doors remains entirely empty.  The door melted in the lava.

Yeah, stuff like that.
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Footkerchief

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1224 on: February 02, 2010, 01:48:58 am »

I believe in my heart of hearts that proper balance does not lead to more problems, but less.  In the aforementioned example, a troll should be able to squash a half dozen dogs at a time.  I had a dragon invasion for the first time today... very anticlimactic.  He belched flame once, and I can't even tell who at, supposedly.  No one appears to have even been singed.  Then three legendary wrestlers killed him without incident.

Wrestlers.

[...]

We will see what it looks like when the next version is out.  But unless the army arc is more challenging than I imagine, it will just be redundant.  All the combat is busted due to lack of realism, hence a lack of the feeling of immersion.

I don't know whether you've been following development closely, but combat and the wounding system in particular have been largely reworked in the upcoming version.  SirPenguin compiled a list of the new features -- look for the "Combat" section in particular.  The entire skill/attribute system has also been replaced.  Toady has done a lot of balance testing with the new combat system.  The net effect is that yeah, it'll probably be a lot harder for your wrestlers to take down a dragon.

I can't count on my fingers and toes all the times someone has died and I have to shut down the whole game, save, restart, abandon fortress, go slogging through the history in legends mode, just to get an idea WHO killed the person to beg in with...???

The next version provides full Adv. Mode-style combat reports in Fortress Mode, so you won't have to go poking through legends for that.

The dwarfs refused to remove the doors.  I built an extra furniture storage.  They still refused.  I built a furniture storage specifically FOR doors.  They removed all but one door and put them all in the non-door-specific furniture storage...?

I'll never know why they left the last door.  The storage spot for doors remains entirely empty.  The door melted in the lava.

This is the kind of thing you should submit a bug report on.  DF is a team effort in the sense that they rely on the community to find many of the smaller bugs.

Dogs being faster than dwarfs is BASIC.

Toady's aware of this problem and has confirmed that it'll be fixed at some point:

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Question for toady & friends.  Are there any plans to give creatures more accurate stats?  I'm talking about all creatures, above and below ground.  For example, movement speed.  Cheetahs are currently the same speed as cats.  Wolves and such should really be able to outrun unskilled dwarves.  Is any of the raw update dealing with this kind of thing, or is that for another day?

Toady One has mentioned a desire to separate movement speed from speed at other actions, though I beleive he also said it was not going to happen this release.  My search fu is weak, so I can't get a betrer reference for you.
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Was the very first part of this cycle breaking creatures down into 6 physical stats and 11 mental ones?  Though I recall that he had some trouble regarding separating Agility and Movement Speed.

Yeah, that's right.  I can't just change the speed variable because it also influences the number of attacks (and everything else).  These are going to be teased apart at some point in the combat arc, when it really starts to matter (in the sense that the current situation is untenable for "version 1" combat).  When that work begins I have no idea.

In terms of attribute effects, it currently uses agility and strength to determine the change in speed from the raw value.  There have been some ideas floated for how to change agility into more variables to differentiate the dancers from the surgeons and crafters, but there's something aggravating down there that is similar to the question of breaking strength up by body part (which is a bit excessive/memory hoggish), so I'm not sure what's going to happen.
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MrWiggles

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1225 on: February 02, 2010, 03:07:09 am »

Why do so many people just throw out ease of this and that, they can't possibly know all the in and out that toady does in order to really judge the difficulty of the vague idea.
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Footkerchief

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1226 on: February 02, 2010, 03:21:51 am »

Why do so many people just throw out ease of this and that, they can't possibly know all the in and out that toady does in order to really judge the difficulty of the vague idea.

What are you referring to?  If you mean Durin's statement that "Dogs being faster than dwarfs is BASIC," then I don't think he meant "basic" as in "easy to implement."  He meant "basic" as in "this is a basic necessity for the game to make sense."  And he's right.
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G-Flex

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1227 on: February 02, 2010, 04:46:41 am »

That's all well and good, but you can't even buy the stuff from other regions at an exorbitant price.

Then the problem is that you can't buy it. The ability to, say, buy glass blocks and melt them down for your own glass items is reasonable and should exist.

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but to my way of thinking, yes...  You should be able to find a site with everything the game has to offer without having to regen worlds continually.

But... why? The game simulates a world full of diverse geography, geology, and biology. There's just no way you can expect all that content on a given site. You should certainly be able to import whatever's reasonable, and act on offsite matters in some ways, and these are certainly planned things for development. But really, I don't want to see elephants and ice wolves and penguins on the same map (unless something REALLY bizarre is going on), and how do you expect a map to have all possible geographical or geological features? It just wouldn't make any sense.

I think the main problem is the lack of variety of features, and the inability to import things you should be able to import, like glassmaking material. If there were a dozen or two more special features people could find on their sites, and they were all useful and interesting, people would clamor less over finding the "perfect" site.

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My new pet peeve is balance.  Dogs are not as fast as dwarfs.  I don't care how frightfully experienced a dwarf is, it does not outrun a dog.  Now, I've never seen a kobold, but in my humble opinion same concept applies.

Yeah, there are currently way too many similarities between creatures.

This will change to some degree in the next version, but I'm not sure how much or in what ways. I do know that dwarves' (and other creatures') attributes will be capped to twice their starting value, so at the least, dwarves won't get quite as fast as they do now.

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I find it annoying and emblematic of what happens when one person tries to do what a team of people ought to be doing.

The complaint is legitimate, but don't assume this would be done better if more people were working on the project. Toady has stated before that he just doesn't enjoy working on stuff like this with other people, to the extent that even working with his own brother on the code wouldn't be preferable to him. That's just how he works, and while it definitely is detrimental in terms of how things get done, there's a definite trade-off in his obvious devotion to the project. And even regardless of the benefits, you can't really expect him to change how he does things that drastically.
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Thanshin

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1228 on: February 02, 2010, 05:16:55 am »

The one thing that makes me stop playing is siege strength.

The new underground plus improved sieges (hopefully not so far in the future) will make this game not turn me off again.

The moment you build metal fortified walls with marksdwarves behind them all around your fort and it doesn't protect you because the goblins have channeled a river right into them, this game will be perfect.
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Deon

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1229 on: February 02, 2010, 05:25:33 am »

Then I will just make "fake moats" which are filled with lava once goblins channel in :). Ah, lots of fun in future.
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