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Other Projects => Other Games => Topic started by: puke on January 29, 2016, 05:31:22 pm

Title: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: puke on January 29, 2016, 05:31:22 pm
I almost disregarded this because it is a free game on steam, and I assumed there was some sort of P2P or P2W catch to it.  THERE IS NOT.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/404410

This is a pretty cool looking Escape Velocity like game.  In the same vein as Naev, and to some extent similar to Star Control.

Indy developer, free and open source.  No steam workshop, but you can go to the main forum and find some moders or you can go to the Git repository and find the sourcecode if you want to do something with it.

Have some pics:

(https://endless-sky.github.io/screenshots/trading.jpg)

(https://endless-sky.github.io/screenshots/outfitters.jpg)

(http://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/404410/ss_3085a28a4776ab37eaf211e304d85d176567ce34.jpg?t=1450465436)
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like)
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on January 29, 2016, 05:49:43 pm
Yeah, Endless Sky is pretty fun.
(PTW)
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like)
Post by: forsaken1111 on January 29, 2016, 06:08:22 pm
Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on January 29, 2016, 05:49:43 pm
Yeah, Endless Sky is pretty fun.
(PTW)
Bit barebones at the moment though (also ptw)
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like)
Post by: puke on January 30, 2016, 12:14:48 pm
Been playing for the last day, seems pretty good.  I think it has more going on than Naev, to be honest.

Not sure how far faction missions go, but I've already been on several multi-part stories and I'm not even flying a ship geared for combat. 

If I was, it seems like there is a pirate fighting campaign, some sort of civil war, and I hear there are bounty missions and such.  I'm having a pretty good time just being a courier and light freight / passenger mover. Occasionally boarding a pirate ship to pick up some extra cash.

I think that is the way to get rich, keep a well-armed boarding ship and sell the ships you capture.  You have to balance the revenue against the death benefits you are required to pay out, so you need to make sure the fight is as asymmetrical as possible.  Large ships would require a sizable boarding party to capture, and you'd take many losses.

You can build fleets even, and have multiple ships following you around either escorting you or hauling your cargo.  Naev will probably never implement that feature, for example.

There are some things that you cant do well, such as managing inventory across multiple ships (trading parts, keeping parts in inventory without installing, uninstalling without selling)

But other things are really well done.  Commodity price heat-map, overlayed on the star chart, for example.  AMAZINGLY useful.
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like)
Post by: Mattk50 on January 30, 2016, 03:19:48 pm
This looks like a load of fun. Gonna try it while im macroing up characters in other terrible video games.
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like)
Post by: Culise on January 31, 2016, 02:44:29 am
What a curious little game.  I do love the price, though, and I've been bouncing all over the place looking for a good game like this.  I think I'll give it a whirl. ^_^
...maybe tomorrow, when I'm not exhausted.
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like)
Post by: Girlinhat on January 31, 2016, 05:41:28 am
Protip: Start with a passenger shuttle, and do some runs.  When you can get a medium-sized cargo hauler, trade missions earn more money than passenger missions, as you can build a route of missions.  When you get even larger, like 2+ heavy freighters, simple trading is the most profitable, as locations never deplete and markets never saturate.

Hunting pirates is also insanely profitable, especially if you can find an occupied system where you can sell things off as you farm them.  You can let the locals shoot a pirate, and as it gets low on health spam the 'b' button - for boarding - the navy will normally kill pirates, but if you've flagged it for boarding then they leave it disabled.  Bring rifles and extra crew.  Harvesting components is very valuable, though whole ships is obviously the most valuable - passenger shuttles are nice for throwing bulk troops at the enemy.

The game DOES get progressively more hostile as time goes on.  Certain events happen and pirate activity increases at a somewhat gradual pace.  Luckily as pirates increase, your ability to let the navy tank them and then you 'b' them also increases, so your money should raise as well.  Play a bit conservatively, and try to get nuclear drives from the region north of Sol, they're as expensive as a ship but they give you either amazing power or very small size for the same power.
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like)
Post by: puke on January 31, 2016, 02:50:44 pm
When I first spied a couple of 400 or 600 profit-per-unit routes, I had ideas about buying a few freighters and farming them for a bit.

But when I actually had the freighters, "bulk" deliveries and "large bulk" deliveries started opening up.  that could pay 200K or more.

Passenger moving can pay out, too.  Even with a small ship, you can move strike breakers or large families for 100-200K.  I have just seen a 600K payout for moving 70+ passengers.

So, whatever you want to do, there is a way to do it.  And packing in a little freight never hurts when you have the space to spare (it can pay for your crew salaries and missiles, for example) but I wouldn't make it the primary focus.

Boarding though, this is definitely the way to go.  I have not been doing any in a while, but will probably get back to it after I sell off these mules and trade up to a larger warship.

Anyone following this who is not familiar with Naev (not another escape velocity) should check that out also:  http://blog.naev.org/
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like)
Post by: puke on February 01, 2016, 06:52:09 am
Quote from: puke on January 31, 2016, 02:50:44 pm
packing in a little freight never hurts when you have the space to spare (it can pay for your crew salaries and missiles, for example) but I wouldn't make it the primary focus.

Possibly I was shortsighted.  quick mental math here, for 1000 in fleet cargo capacity, every 100 profit per unit nets you 100,000 total profit per run.  An optimized route might have 400 profit in one direction, 200 in the other, call it average 350 profit per unit for a good route.  5 bulk freighters will make this about 1m per trip.

A little grindey, the opportunistic missions are a little more fun, but this could be a solid way to make money.  The small freighters seem to have the best cargo per dollar investment ratio, though I'd probably put regular hyperdrives in them to increase their range.


Quote from: puke on January 31, 2016, 02:50:44 pm
Boarding though, this is definitely the way to go.  I have not been doing any in a while, but will probably get back to it after I sell off these mules and trade up to a larger warship.

Just tried it out some more with a bactrain, and could regularly pull 1m for salvaging smallish ships without losses (110 crew, all with rifles) but daily crew cost is up there and getting ships in tact in pretty unreliable.  might need more practice.

It seemed much more lucrative when I had a tiny ship and just like 10 extra guys with grenades making a daring assault on a 3m ship, but now that my costs are higher and the odds are safer, it just seems like a PITA.

I do covet me some alien tech though, so I guess I'll have to get boarding sooner or later.  I hear the trick to capturing large ships is to provoke them into counter attacking you during a boarding action, so you can wear down their numbers by defending.
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like)
Post by: Mattk50 on February 01, 2016, 01:29:37 pm
fun game, got myself a fleet going with 6 freighters, two mules, and an assortment of captured interceptors and light warships.

The game has quite a few problems, death benefits will destroy your savegames if you dont see them coming(even if you lose the ship 2 seconds after capture you need to pay 90% of the ship's cost if you lost any crew boarding it), allies pointlessly finishing off pirate ships without even looting them let alone boarding them, and imo ships die and warp in/out way too fast compared to the glacial turn rates. Missiles can come flying in from way offscreen too despite the play area putting you within a screen of the main area of the system. Also the way when you warp into a system your fleet will be spread allover the system kinda sucks, makes it easy to lose very expensive ships if it pops out next to an enemy cruiser or something.

But hey, it's open source, i should mod the shit out of it and if people like my changes maybe they'll push it to steam.
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like)
Post by: puke on February 02, 2016, 03:26:40 pm
For boarding, load up with overwhelming numbers and grenades.  Board with 100 men or more, and you can take medium ships without losses.  But be careful, because you'll be paying tens of thousands per day in salaries.

I have learned some new things! 

- you can hold down J to synchronize your jumps with all ships in your fleet going at the same time!  Undocumented feature? Saw the dev mention it in some thread...

- there is an 'i' screen where you can get detailed ship information and see some basic pilot stats.  You can use this to move around which weapons are in what mounts, for example.

- you can PARK ships on planets with spaceports, using this same feature!  pay no crew wages while the ships are parked!  Keep your big ships in storage while you fly some little scout on a long mission.

- selling an outfit will put a limited supply in that planets inventory, so you can effectively swap items between ships.  If you sell three things, you can then buy those three things back.  There are no inventory numbers displayed, but this is how it works.

- in the latest version, you can jetison cargo (to make room for plunder) on that same 'i' screen, or so the patch notes say.

The main story arc seems to be HUGE.  I keep thinking its almost done, but according to Github I'm only somewhere near the middle of it.  There is also a ton of side storys, and seemingly something like 3-4 other alien races besides the 2 I have already encountered.

I thought this game was going to be simple and small, but it is totally epic.
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like and more epic than it looks)
Post by: Mattk50 on February 02, 2016, 04:06:57 pm
haven't found any story arcs yet, but now i'm up to that 24m heavy warship with the 500 cargo, tons of bunks, tons of hp. It's pretty overpowered honestly, you can get as much outfit points as you want trading off the cargo space.

One issue. I captured a ship after looting it's reactor and engines(in order to decrease the death payout in case i lost any crew). It's in a system without an outfitter but i can park it on the planet. Is there anything i can do or do i just need to let it float there alone forever.
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like and more epic than it looks)
Post by: puke on February 02, 2016, 05:24:48 pm
Quote from: Mattk50 on February 02, 2016, 04:06:57 pm
It's in a system without an outfitter

Oops, no, I think that one is hosed.

Capturing without engines or maneuver or reactor and no outfitter or spaceyard?  I think that's a no-go.  If you have any kind of outfitter, even one without the parts you need, you can refit it by selling the required refit parts to the outfitter and then re-purchasing them for the other ship.

But if you've got no outfitter at all?  I think your stuck.

Quote from: Mattk50 on February 02, 2016, 04:06:57 pm
haven't found any story arcs yet

The main mission arc is for the Free Worlds.  Surely if you're that far you've already seen news of their independence and such.

Always check spaceports when you land, that is where most of the mission triggers are.  And I think the FW stuff triggers in their own space, which is in the south.  You can see who owns a system by clicking on the owner name in the galaxy map, then it will colorize the map based on ownership.

The map is actually pretty impressive, I didn't realize it had all these little tricks in it.  You can click on basically any word and get specific information displayed.

Quote from: Mattk50 on February 02, 2016, 04:06:57 pm
that 24m heavy warship with the 500 cargo, tons of bunks, tons of hp. It's pretty overpowered

In some ways, for sure.  There are better purpose built ships, though.  Other dedicated warships are stronger at fighting.  Dedicated people movers are better at boarding actions.  I think the low end freighter has the best cost (and crew) to cargo ratio, but unless you want like a hundred of the things then the giant super freighter thing with 600 cargo is a better dedicated hauler for trade runs.

That said, the Bactrain is certainly my primary.  And those other ships (mule) by the same manufacturer make up my secondaries.  The mules might be sub optimal as escorts though, there is no benefit to them having large crews or much passenger capacity of their own.  I've never seen a mission to move over 100 people.

Of course, even though I have it kitted out with atomics and advanced weapons, I still get creamed in some of the larger scripted battles.  So, it's not that OP.  If I was running a fleet of 5 or 10 dedicated warships, I'd probably do a lot better.
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like)
Post by: puke on February 02, 2016, 06:00:13 pm
Quote from: puke on February 02, 2016, 03:26:40 pm
- you can hold down J to synchronize your jumps with all ships in your fleet going at the same time!  Undocumented feature? Saw the dev mention it in some thread...

THIS IS WHY THE LITTLE SHIP ICONS TURN GREEN!  It means they are ready to jump!  OMG! head asplode!

hold down J, and release it after they all turn green. 

Wow, fleet engagements just got so much safer.

Also, another pro tip here:

- ships dont seem to be engageable by the enemy while they are not in the same system with your flagship. 

This means the best way to escort a convoy is to rush ahead of it and wait for it to arrive at the destination.  :/

extra random fun fact -- you can plot specific pre-planned jump routes on the map view!  shift click!  (or was it control click?  one of those...)
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like and more epic than it looks)
Post by: Mattk50 on February 02, 2016, 06:13:32 pm
Quote from: puke on February 02, 2016, 05:24:48 pm
Quote from: Mattk50 on February 02, 2016, 04:06:57 pm
It's in a system without an outfitter

Oops, no, I think that one is hosed.

Capturing without engines or maneuver or reactor and no outfitter or spaceyard?  I think that's a no-go.  If you have any kind of outfitter, even one without the parts you need, you can refit it by selling the required refit parts to the outfitter and then re-purchasing them for the other ship.

But if you've got no outfitter at all?  I think your stuck.

Quote from: Mattk50 on February 02, 2016, 04:06:57 pm
haven't found any story arcs yet

The main mission arc is for the Free Worlds.  Surely if you're that far you've already seen news of their independence and such.

Always check spaceports when you land, that is where most of the mission triggers are.  And I think the FW stuff triggers in their own space, which is in the south.  You can see who owns a system by clicking on the owner name in the galaxy map, then it will colorize the map based on ownership.

The map is actually pretty impressive, I didn't realize it had all these little tricks in it.  You can click on basically any word and get specific information displayed.

Quote from: Mattk50 on February 02, 2016, 04:06:57 pm
that 24m heavy warship with the 500 cargo, tons of bunks, tons of hp. It's pretty overpowered

In some ways, for sure.  There are better purpose built ships, though.  Other dedicated warships are stronger at fighting.  Dedicated people movers are better at boarding actions.  I think the low end freighter has the best cost (and crew) to cargo ratio, but unless you want like a hundred of the things then the giant super freighter thing with 600 cargo is a better dedicated hauler for trade runs.

That said, the Bactrain is certainly my primary.  And those other ships (mule) by the same manufacturer make up my secondaries.  The mules might be sub optimal as escorts though, there is no benefit to them having large crews or much passenger capacity of their own.  I've never seen a mission to move over 100 people.

Of course, even though I have it kitted out with atomics and advanced weapons, I still get creamed in some of the larger scripted battles.  So, it's not that OP.  If I was running a fleet of 5 or 10 dedicated warships, I'd probably do a lot better.
Ah well, RIP, was a chance board anyways and i didnt take any crew losses so all's good. it will sit floating in system until something kills it.  It was supposed to be my new heavy warship (its a vanguard) but s'all good.

The issue with the bactrains and mules balance is that they have potential to fit an ungodly number of shield generators as well as reactors and anything else you want by repurposing all the cargo, the bactrain also has the largest bunk space of any ship i've seen so far and the mule has the lowest required crew for a medium warship and is also quite cheap while packing the most hp and the most turrets. The bactrain Also also have tons of turrets which the AI deals with much better than forward guns and are generally more powerful as well. Fit with reverse thrusters for extreme inter-system travel speed, scram drives cant even compete with that speed. Its a bit too cheesy for me but eventually im just going to try turning ALL the cargo on the bactrain into shield generators, i already have 4 of the max size ones. Im expecting to fit something like 20.

Generally i dont like how easy it is to just zoom through systems without any issue, it makes me wonder why any npcs ever die at all when they should just be going into hyperspace with inpunity.

The only news story i've seen so far was a terrorist attack of some kind. I've kinda been power running loans and running a 700 profit both ways run, multiplying my freighter count each time. Maybe i've progressed much farther faster than is intended. I'll check the spaceports though.
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like)
Post by: Persus13 on February 02, 2016, 07:54:01 pm
Quote from: puke on February 02, 2016, 03:26:40 pm
- you can hold down J to synchronize your jumps with all ships in your fleet going at the same time!  Undocumented feature? Saw the dev mention it in some thread...
This is mentioned in the tutorial for the game.
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like and more epic than it looks)
Post by: scriver on February 02, 2016, 08:58:34 pm
When I finally bought the DLCs the collection was at 75% while about every individual DLC was at 66%. Buying the whole collection still came off cheaper than picking out just the individual DLCs I wanted from it, so I ended up buying the collection anyway even though I don't particularly care for all the graphic packs and that kind of stuff.
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like and more epic than it looks)
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on February 02, 2016, 09:01:53 pm
Wrong thread, perhaps?
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like and more epic than it looks)
Post by: scriver on February 03, 2016, 02:48:25 am
Huh, yeah. I was just reading through the ck2 thread and wondering if o had forgotten to post this reply there.

It seems I somehow managed to post it here instead.

Oh well. This game looks kind of cool. Post to watch, I guess?
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like)
Post by: puke on February 03, 2016, 04:14:16 am
Quote from: Persus13 on February 02, 2016, 07:54:01 pm
Quote from: puke on February 02, 2016, 03:26:40 pm
- you can hold down J to synchronize your jumps with all ships in your fleet going at the same time!  Undocumented feature? Saw the dev mention it in some thread...
This is mentioned in the tutorial for the game.

Was the tutorial the bit with the old man giving you your first missions?  I feel like unless you're playing something like KSP that requires a slide rule and protractor, modern UIs should have progressed to the point that tutorials and manuals and such are not needed.  I mean, this isnt a full cockpit simulator like A-10 Warthog or something, with every switch and gauge modeled and functional. 

Have some tooltips on your first jump with another ship, or put some mouseover highlights on clickable elements on the map. grump-grump-complain-complain

Quote from: Mattk50 on February 02, 2016, 06:13:32 pm
The issue with the bactrains and mules balance is that they have potential to fit an ungodly number of shield generators

Some of the dedicated warship hulls have built in shield production multipliers so they give you better bang for the buck. 

There are a couple of hulls that unlock later in the game that are pretty sweet, but right off the bat that Syndicate starfish thing is a good dedicated 6-turret gun platform as long as you have it in a mixed ship fleet.  Republic Cruisers and Carriers are very nice ships, that should easily take a stock Bactrain 1v1.  I think even my kitted-out Bactrain will lose 1v1 to a cruiser, but I have not gone crazy with the shield generators either.

Outfit space isnt the end-all, since engine space and weapon space has separate limits.  For the way I play, its all about the turrets.  But you can pack a serious punch with some of the larger forward mount guns so having a couple gunboats isnt a bad plan.

Quote from: Mattk50 on February 02, 2016, 06:13:32 pm
The only news story i've seen so far was a terrorist attack of some kind.

Yeah, some republic navy spaceyards are nuked and the splinter free worlds faction is blamed.  You should be able to start picking up FW missions in the south, if you check out their space ports.  It starts with some scouting or pirate hunting, and then some convoy escorts.

Quote from: Mattk50 on February 02, 2016, 06:13:32 pm
I've kinda been power running loans and running a 700 profit both ways run, multiplying my freighter count each time. Maybe i've progressed much farther faster than is intended. I'll check the spaceports though.

Wow, where is your 700-both-way run?  I thought I was doing good when I found a 500+400 run, but one end was a hostile planet so I moved on.
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like and more epic than it looks)
Post by: puke on February 03, 2016, 06:03:19 am
...if someone ever gives you a large battle fleet to escort somewhere, and no particular timeline to get there... feel free to go subjugate a few pirate worlds while you have it.

The tribute from subjugated worlds is sadly pretty small, but it is nice just to be able to land without paying bribes.

If you're an incurable completionist and min-maxer, take advantage of plot events that make factions hostile, and subjugate as many of their worlds as you can before another plot event repairs the relationship.  I dont THINK this breaks any quests, but maybe back up your save just in case.
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like)
Post by: Mattk50 on February 03, 2016, 06:32:00 am
Quote from: puke on February 03, 2016, 04:14:16 am
Wow, where is your 700-both-way run?  I thought I was doing good when I found a 500+400 run, but one end was a hostile planet so I moved on.

By both way i meant that running it both ways nets 700 per ton, not that each direction is 700, oops.

I guess i;ll have to look at some of the higher end warships. One last question, where do i get a navy license :p
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like)
Post by: puke on February 03, 2016, 07:27:29 am
Quote from: Mattk50 on February 03, 2016, 06:32:00 am
I guess i;ll have to look at some of the higher end warships. One last question, where do i get a navy license :p

Ah, sad news my friend:  you wait for a navy campaign to be written.  Development is active though.  Or you can edit the data your self since it is all open source.

Only way to get navy or quarg ships is to capture them, and capturing quarg is neigh impossible.

I'll be totally honest:  hull-for-hull, there may not be anything better than a Bactrain for the reasons you state.  credit-for-credit, you can probably put more guns on two or three times as many smaller ships.

If you optimize for high turning rates, the crazy number of forward mounts on the Shield Beetle and the Vanguard both make them formidable and you can bring a lot of guns to bear probably faster than targets can evade.

I have an allergy to ammo consuming weapons, but I hear one of the late-game aliens has an ammoless launcher system that could round out such ships if you don't like the direct mounts or the constant expense of missiles.
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like)
Post by: a1s on February 03, 2016, 09:01:46 am
Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on January 29, 2016, 05:49:43 pm
PTW
That's what I fear. In general, when I see the words "Free* to play".
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like)
Post by: a1s on February 03, 2016, 09:38:39 am
Quote from: Naxza on February 03, 2016, 09:13:56 am
Quote from: a1s on February 03, 2016, 09:01:46 am
Quote from: My Name is Immaterial on January 29, 2016, 05:49:43 pm
PTW
That's what I fear. In general, when I see the words "Free* to play".

That's 'posting to watch,' actually. There are no microtransactions in Endless Sky.
I know (the first part), but I wanted to ask (the second part) and just couldn't resist, this being the very first post.  :P
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: puke on February 03, 2016, 11:43:29 am
come on man, that was a funny play on words, but it is also literally the first line in the first post:

Quote from: puke on January 29, 2016, 05:31:22 pm
I almost disregarded this because it is a free game on steam, and I assumed there was some sort of P2P or P2W catch to it.  THERE IS NOT.
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like and more epic than it looks)
Post by: Fikes on February 03, 2016, 11:44:54 am
Quite honestly I couldn't be more pleased with this game. I believe it is easily a 10 dollar game if not more. It does some things so well (and so much better than other games) that I can't help but really enjoy it.

For example a big part of the early game (at least for me) was trading. Generally when a game features trade it means memorizing routes and hoping that you arrive before the market crashes. In endless sky you can see the price of all goods in every system you have visited AND how the goods in your current system will sell in a distant one. Small features like that make me happy.
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like and more epic than it looks)
Post by: Hetairos on February 03, 2016, 11:55:08 am
This doesn't seem to be in the free game list yet, and it looks like a good place for it.

I'm enjoying the flavour text all worlds and space ports have. And getting a nice profit from a string of missions, although I probably should be expanding my fleet faster.

But now some student wants me to ram an asteroid into a planet for her science project or something, and I have doubts.
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like)
Post by: Persus13 on February 03, 2016, 12:19:44 pm
Quote from: puke on February 03, 2016, 04:14:16 am
Quote from: Persus13 on February 02, 2016, 07:54:01 pm
Quote from: puke on February 02, 2016, 03:26:40 pm
- you can hold down J to synchronize your jumps with all ships in your fleet going at the same time!  Undocumented feature? Saw the dev mention it in some thread...
This is mentioned in the tutorial for the game.

Was the tutorial the bit with the old man giving you your first missions?  I feel like unless you're playing something like KSP that requires a slide rule and protractor, modern UIs should have progressed to the point that tutorials and manuals and such are not needed.  I mean, this isnt a full cockpit simulator like A-10 Warthog or something, with every switch and gauge modeled and functional. 

Have some tooltips on your first jump with another ship, or put some mouseover highlights on clickable elements on the map. grump-grump-complain-complain
Quote
It was a tooltip on an early jump, I think. I last played the game two months ago, so I can't remember where it stated that, but the point is that its stated in the game, early on.
Title: Re: Endless Sky (EV-like)
Post by: puke on February 03, 2016, 12:45:05 pm
Quote from: Persus13 on February 03, 2016, 12:19:44 pm
It was a tooltip on an early jump, I think. I last played the game two months ago, so I can't remember where it stated that, but the point is that its stated in the game, early on.

well, good on them then. 
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: puke on February 03, 2016, 01:05:18 pm
Found this cool redit thread with some trade route calculations.  Now that I'm paying out over 30k per day in salaries, per-diam revenue is more important than per-trip:

https://www.reddit.com/r/endlesssky/comments/3sdab7/best_trade_route_spoilers_possibly/

Quote
The first number is the number of jumps. The second is the revenue per ton per day, including the two days it takes to land. The next field is the path, and the final fields are the price deltas for the commodities on the path and reverse path.
Code: [Select]
3 86.375 Delta Velorum -> Fala -> Tania Australis -> Algieba ('Luxury Goods', 395) ('Metal', 296)
2 84.000 Mora -> Tania Australis -> Algieba ('Luxury Goods', 310) ('Metal', 194)
2 80.600 Algieba -> Tania Australis -> Fala ('Metal', 197) ('Luxury Goods', 287)
4 79.000 Ya Hai -> Bote Asu -> Wah Ki -> Wah Yoot -> Ehma Ti ('Luxury Goods', 430) ('Heavy Metals', 360)
1 77.000 Tania Australis -> Algieba ('Luxury Goods', 208) ('Metal', 100)
5 76.600 Wah Oh -> Due Yoot -> Lom Tahr -> Io Lowe -> Mei Yohn -> Zuba Zub ('Medical', 400) ('Heavy Metals', 520)
3 76.250 Zuba Zub -> Wah Ki -> Bote Asu -> Ya Hai ('Heavy Metals', 310) ('Luxury Goods', 300)
4 76.000 Zuba Zub -> Mei Yohn -> Io Lowe -> Lom Tahr -> Da Lest ('Heavy Metals', 430) ('Medical', 330)
4 76.000 Imo Dep -> Zuba Zub -> Wah Ki -> Bote Asu -> Ya Hai ('Heavy Metals', 370) ('Luxury Goods', 390)
2 75.830 Algieba -> Tania Australis -> Lolami ('Metal', 188) ('Luxury Goods', 267)
Then there were some other useful comments:

Quote
[–]joemaro 3 points 2 months ago
having also just begun, there is no habitable planet in Algieba ... how does one achieve to trade there?
permalinkparent
[–]ArthurDentsTea 2 points 2 months ago
I think he meant Alphard. If you do metal/luxury goods it comes out to 157cred/hop which is not bad.
permalinkparent
[–]FishToaster 2 points 2 months ago*
I too wrote a bit of code to find profitable routes. I ignored the days required, since I was optimizing for play-time, not in-game time. The one difference is that I dropped Algieba from my dataset. There are no habitable planets in that system despite it showing up as having trade values.
So, ignoring Algieba, your best options for each number of hops are (with the round-trip profit listed):
4 hops: Ehma Ti <-> Ya Hai for 790
3 hops: Ya Hai <-> Zuba Zub for 610
2 hops: Markab <-> Ruchbah for 454
1 hop: Ankaa <-> Markab for 262
The Markab routes are particularly useful since that system sells Bulk Freighters. Once you get to the point of buying a bulk freighter once every round trip, that becomes useful.

There is something weird about the Algieba system, either it is not fully implemented yet, or a port might unlock there late in the campaign.
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: Mattk50 on February 03, 2016, 02:48:03 pm
that first one is the route i've been using, secrets out i guess. algeiba is a typo btw the system next to it, alphard, is the one you trade with.

I was doing the free worlds storyline thing and after escorting a small trade fleet twice the quest line seems to have ended, been going around checking spaceports but i can't find it.

edit: i did just find the han though.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: puke on February 03, 2016, 07:15:03 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I believe there are at least 3 other alien races in the game, and I'm nearing the end of the FW campaign so I expect to be introduced to some of them soonish.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
It is nice, since you can pick up missions to amplify the trade values.  I have 4 fully kitted up Bactrains now (to the extent of the tech I currently have available), and a net worth of over 100m.

I almost went broke because I had to reduce their cargo size... Hai dont sell any good coolant systems, and I had to pick up different pieces in different places so I was running around with under 1000 cargo capacity in my fleet and hemorrhaging funds.

The final straw was when I gambled on capturing two pirate ships without extra crew, and ended up with 10m in death benefits to pay.  If I was able to sell the ships instantly, I would have turned a profit.  Unfortuneatly, I had to eat about a weeks worth of interest.

Came out nearly broke, but with my refits fully finished and back to a 2000+ cargo capacity between my four ships, and I'm back to around 10m in liquid assets after a little bit of incidental trade and pirate hunting.
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: a1s on February 03, 2016, 09:43:23 pm
Is it me, or are pirates massive assholes? I mean, I get that they want to show they're serious, but surely once they kill me, they get neither cargo nor credits?
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: Culise on February 03, 2016, 11:15:08 pm
Quote from: a1s on February 03, 2016, 09:43:23 pm
Is it me, or are pirates massive assholes? I mean, I get that they want to show they're serious, but surely once they kill me, they get neither cargo nor credits?
You can comm them and pay them off in most circumstances, I believe (I know you can in every such that I've encountered so far).  It'd be nice if they were a bit more proactive about collecting their protection money or tolls, though on the other hand, I can see how having a pop-up dialog box every time you get attacked by every podunk pirate in a fighter might interrupt game flow and irritate the user. 

That said, my first such encounter was with one that was using missiles.  He disabled me, I commed him and paid him off, and his last salvo (fired before I made contact) promptly struck home and blew me to atoms.  That was...amusing; very "apologies for next three incoming." 
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: a1s on February 03, 2016, 11:26:37 pm
Quote from: Culise on February 03, 2016, 11:15:08 pm
He disabled me, I commed him and paid him off, and his last salvo promptly struck home and blew me to atoms.
Yup. When you're piloting a small ship basically any capital ship salvo is a one-hit kill. And they will not hesitate to waste missile ammo on you, for no tangible benefit.
Quote from: Culise on February 03, 2016, 11:15:08 pm
It'd be nice if they were a bit more proactive ... though on the other hand, I can see how having a pop-up dialog box every time ... might interrupt game flow.
Well, you don't have to. You could get a message in the lower corner (like you do for bank payment/fluff messages) that says " XXX warns you to turn off your engines and weapons and contact him. you have 5 seconds". If you contact him- you have the dialog. If you turn/accelerate/fire (this includes jumping, since that requires turning and decelerating,) then they fire on you like they do now. This will not interrupt your game flow and it will make pirates less bullshit.
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: Tiruin on February 04, 2016, 02:55:43 am
This is amazing, and thank you for bringing it into a thread! :D

I've noticed something about bank credit after playing for a bit...it seems to only go up while you've a mortgage running.
So...I've somehow come to the conclusion that having a mortgage is better in the long-run than staying clean off loans...Which seems pretty weird to my (inexperienced) eye!

Also not having read any post before this (because yay lacking time! :'( ), it seems having a trade fleet is the most stable option in the current version, in the long-run? You can escort and fight, all the while being most efficient in terms of credits/missions.

Alsoalso I've never been able to disable and board an enemy pirate ship, ever. The controls feel a bit...too difficult to enable that kind of maneuvering (also an allied ship just pops in and blows it up :I I feel my pilot thinking "I was trying to arrest that guy!" -- so the disable-pirate thing is usually only in 'silent' systems, far away from Militia, Republic, or Syndicate friends T_T)

Quote from: Culise on January 31, 2016, 02:44:29 am
What a curious little game.  I do love the price, though, and I've been bouncing all over the place looking for a good game like this.  I think I'll give it a whirl. ^_^
...maybe tomorrow, when I'm not exhausted.
This was my thoughts 95% of when I saw it. We think alike o_o
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: My Name is Immaterial on February 04, 2016, 03:23:34 am
I'm pretty sure that your credit score maxes at 800, like in real life.
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: puke on February 04, 2016, 04:02:04 am
Quote from: Tiruin on February 04, 2016, 02:55:43 am
I've noticed something about bank credit after playing for a bit...it seems to only go up while you've a mortgage running.
So...I've somehow come to the conclusion that having a mortgage is better in the long-run than staying clean off loans...Which seems pretty weird to my (inexperienced) eye!

Haha, thats actually how credit works in the US :)  You get a credit card early in your life, and keep it paid off so you'll build up a credit rating.  Doesn't really get up there until you have a mortgage, though.

Just like IRL, your rating in the game will drop if you miss payments.

Quote from: Tiruin on February 04, 2016, 02:55:43 am
Alsoalso I've never been able to disable and board an enemy pirate ship, ever. The controls feel a bit...too difficult to enable that kind of maneuvering (also an allied ship just pops in and blows it up :I I feel my pilot thinking "I was trying to arrest that guy!" -- so the disable-pirate thing is usually only in 'silent' systems, far away from Militia, Republic, or Syndicate friends T_T)

Quote from: Culise on February 03, 2016, 11:15:08 pm
He disabled me, I commed him and paid him off, and his last salvo (fired before I made contact) promptly struck home and blew me to atoms.  That was...amusing; very "apologies for next three incoming." 

Part of the problems is weapons with travel time.  Basically anything except lasers or electron beams.  Switch to beam weapons and it is easier to disable ships.

If you are spamming the 'B' key while other ships are shooting, they will generally let-off as soon as you mark a target for boarding.  Some AIs have aggressive personalities, but usually merchants and republic will ignore ships that you have marked for boarding.

But the same problem with missiles and projectiles in flight still applies.

I do agree that pirates could do a better job of warning you or extorting you, or just pillaging your systems and leaving you for dead.  It happened this way in Naev, which was pretty cool.

This is open source, so maybe someone will add that to the pirate AI.  Right now though, stealing your engine or thrusters would leave you hosed -- there would need to be a towing service also.
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: puke on February 04, 2016, 04:36:27 am
Quote from: Tiruin on February 04, 2016, 02:55:43 am
Also not having read any post before this (because yay lacking time! :'( ), it seems having a trade fleet is the most stable option in the current version, in the long-run? You can escort and fight, all the while being most efficient in terms of credits/missions.

The nice thing about this over other EV-like games, is that there are no resale penalties.  You can sell ships and outfits for 100% of the purchase price, so you can always try things out or re-equip later.

Trade is surely the most 'stable' but passenger carry is a great sideline.  sometimes you can get payed 500K for moving passengers somewhere.  Passenger contracts usually dont expire, so you can keep picking them up while you are flying trade or escort missions, and cash them in whenever you are in that neighborhood.

Some times I plan my routes long in advance, and will que up like 8 missions on some system that I am planning to visit, while I'm busy doing something else.  Or I'll keep taking pirate bounties on a place I visit lots, intending to pass through surrounding stars and hunt the pirate while on other trade lines, while never actually going out of my way.

In the early game, I used to do the "take these guys across the map and back" missions because they paid out 100K or more, and I had no crew expenses to speak of.

Now, it is all about profit per jump since I have like 30K in crew wages every day for my 4 bactrains. They only stay in the black while I have them at 500 cargo capacity per, so I'm reluctant to pile in the shields and reactors

But if you had bulk freighters and stripped off the turrets, you would have 600 cargo capacity (or more, if you turned the weapon and reactor / battery space into more cargo) and only 4 crew requirement.  Your costs would be 5% of mine per ship, and would carry over 15% more -- so you might not care about distance so much.
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: puke on February 04, 2016, 05:10:09 am
Quote from: Mattk50 on February 03, 2016, 02:48:03 pm
algeiba is a typo btw the system next to it, alphard, is the one you trade with.

I don't think it is.  I think the guy ran a script against the game files, and pulled out the exactly correct system name.

Check out Algieba on the map.  it is the ONLY unoccupied system that lists a planet -- "Watcher" -- and the only planet with no available services except for Hope.

Since Hope is plot-relevant (one mission I think is a scientific expedition there, and then a character from the campaign has some back story from there) I suspect that Watcher either is or will be plot relevant -- it might get unlocked later in the game, or it might not be fully implemented yet.

I suspect this guy's trade numbers for Algiba are based on numbers in the data files, we just cant visit there yet.
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: Tiruin on February 04, 2016, 11:50:33 pm
Quote from: puke on February 04, 2016, 04:36:27 am
Quote from: Tiruin on February 04, 2016, 02:55:43 am
Also not having read any post before this (because yay lacking time! :'( ), it seems having a trade fleet is the most stable option in the current version, in the long-run? You can escort and fight, all the while being most efficient in terms of credits/missions.

The nice thing about this over other EV-like games, is that there are no resale penalties.  You can sell ships and outfits for 100% of the purchase price, so you can always try things out or re-equip later.
I've found a wiki online--it covers these things and a ton more in them! :D I really love it (though I did not know, but had a hint on, the details of the shield generator. Apparently they're also used to ward off cosmic radiation and...I've been flying a ship without a shield for a few months o_o)

It's been one year in-game and all I've got is a freighter. How do you all progress so fast? :'(
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: puke on February 05, 2016, 04:03:16 am
Quote from: Tiruin on February 04, 2016, 11:50:33 pm
It's been one year in-game and all I've got is a freighter. How do you all progress so fast? :'(

Got hooked and played non stop for a few days.  Not the sort of behavior I would recommend emulating. 

I flew around in a shuttle for a *long* time, and then upgraded to one of those black manta-ray looking things with the heavy-laser turrets.  Flew that for the first few campaign missions and then picked up a mule as soon as I had the cash.

Since I was flying passenger ships for the first bit, it was a huge relevation when the larger cargo missions unlocked after I got the larger ship.

There are a few things burried like that:  escort missions and pirate bounties are tied to combat performance, so unless you have a combat rating of 6 (greater than 6?) you dont get the higher paying escort missions.

There is also a special ship that you can pickup a mission to get once your combat rating is at 9, (if you stop on the right world after your combat rating is up there, and you get no notice about it before hand so it is more like an easter-egg) but I am at the end of the campaign and my combat rating is only an 8.

Honestly, my 4 full-kit Bactrain's with late-game tech are a match for most things, so unlocking that special ship does not have much appeal any more.  If it happened sooner, or if I knew to work towards it, that probably would have been better.

endgame ship stuff:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Mattk50 on February 03, 2016, 02:48:03 pm
edit: i did just find the han though.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You actually get a bit more lore from them later.  You can bribe those guys in the north to land, and pick up some of their perspective.  And if you run missions for them (have to bring them a few special items before they trust you enough to give you missions) you'll get some other interesting back story that isnt quite as dumb as "here are some evil ones to shoot".

They tie in with another encounter, and through that you learn more about their contact with humans.  So, while it is still a bit silly, it isnt as dumb as it seems at first.
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: Blaze on February 06, 2016, 07:45:35 am
Sheer Dumb Luck in my case.

I was putzing around in a Freighter, found my way into Syndicate space and ran across a disabled Quicksilver. Since it was a "Friendly", I shot it once, boarded it (I had no concept of what minimum vs maximum crew was yet, so my flagship was full of crew), and ran away with it all giddy.

And wow, boarding really is where all the money is. There's no concept of broken equipment, so those sparrows that are everywhere in the Southern area are about 450k apiece, furies are twice that and are easier to hit. Two particle cannons make it easy to capture them and outrange anything the enemy has, and even have recoil so kiting is done for you.

I want to upgrade with to a medium warship, the quicksilver doesn't have the crew to board anything bigger (like the Argosy's I see so often), currently at 24 million credits and climbing (Piracy is fun).
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: puke on February 06, 2016, 11:37:52 am
Quote from: puke on February 04, 2016, 04:02:04 am
Quote from: Tiruin on February 04, 2016, 02:55:43 am
I've noticed something about bank credit after playing for a bit...it seems to only go up while you've a mortgage running.
So...I've somehow come to the conclusion that having a mortgage is better in the long-run than staying clean off loans...Which seems pretty weird to my (inexperienced) eye!

Haha, thats actually how credit works in the US :)  You get a credit card early in your life, and keep it paid off so you'll build up a credit rating.  Doesn't really get up there until you have a mortgage, though.

Just like IRL, your rating in the game will drop if you miss payments.

Oh my gosh, I just realized that you can refinance your loans as your credit score improves. 

There are not any fluctuating interest rates based on economic conditions or anything like that (though the amount you can borrow seems to depend on location? ) but your interest rate does get better as your credit rating improves.  You probably won't max it out at 800 until after you've paid off your first loan and taken out a second, but odds are your rating will be markedly improved long before your first loan is payed off.

In this case, just take out a new loan for the remaining principle of your existing loan.  The new loan should be at a better rate, as long as your rating has gone up by virtue of your regular payments.  Pay off the original loan, and you've just lowered your daily payments!
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: Tiruin on February 06, 2016, 11:53:02 am
Quote from: puke on February 06, 2016, 11:37:52 am
In this case, just take out a new loan for the remaining principle of your existing loan.  The new loan should be at a better rate, as long as your rating has gone up by virtue of your regular payments.  Pay off the original loan, and you've just lowered your daily payments!
I happily realized that the minimal best loan amount is 364 :P Because that's 1 credit per day. 365 starts off with paying 2 at the start. xD
And this is only for the credit value. Thanks by the way for telling me about the US system--I was wondering why there're episodes in shows I watch of people flaunting their credit cards everywhere (+ moral lesson) o_O
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: Paul on February 06, 2016, 11:32:23 pm
Fun game. I worked my way up with very little trading, primarily combat focused. Started out by kitting out a shuttle with 10 crew with rifles to capture ships and capturing a better ship, then went on up quickly from there. First capture was dangerous, I lucked out on a group of pirates fighting a group of syndicate over in Persian system.

Once you get a jump drive you can do some pretty ridiculous trade runs though. Like a 1 jump run with a profit of 484 per unit one way and 324 the way back.

Ship capturing can be annoying though, with the frequency of new ships jumping in a system.
If it's a hostile system, good luck disabling and boarding anything before 15 more come.
If it's a friendly system, good luck getting to board the ship you disabled before a fleet hops in and fires missiles or sends a fighter to kill your disabled ship.

Also silly to try and get tribute from a world. You fight more enemy forces hopping in from nearby systems than you do the planet's defense force. And if you get lucky and quickly wipe out the defense force, it still doesn't stop their massive fleets of hostile forces from magically appearing around the world if you try to land on the world you just subdued. Even if every other world in the region is also subdued.
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: a1s on February 08, 2016, 07:04:18 am
Quote from: Tiruin on February 06, 2016, 11:53:02 am
I happily realized that the minimal best loan amount is 364 :P Because that's 1 credit per day.
Spoiler: wrong (click to show/hide)
First of all, the best loan is ~100 credits, with no interest payments (you do have to pay back the principal.) Secondly the loan amount (364 in your case) is based on credit score- higher the score, the higher the cut-off for no interest, so there is no one-size-fits-all number.
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: Tiruin on February 08, 2016, 08:41:03 am
Quote from: a1s on February 08, 2016, 07:04:18 am
Quote from: Tiruin on February 06, 2016, 11:53:02 am
I happily realized that the minimal best loan amount is 364 :P Because that's 1 credit per day.
Spoiler: wrong (click to show/hide)
First of all, the best loan is ~100 credits, with no interest payments (you do have to pay back the principal.) Secondly the loan amount (364 in your case) is based on credit score- higher the score, the higher the cut-off for no interest, so there is no one-size-fits-all number.
I am educated and thank you a ton! o_o

I've also fiddled with the files and managed to make a tiny 'mod' out of the game. x3 Helps boarding a lot easier if damage to hull is lower compared to shield damage. :P I've no idea where those death benefits are though, so that's unmodded. Fun with flying a group of troop transports//Shuttles/Heavy Shuttles around and hopping from ship to ship.
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: Paul on February 08, 2016, 11:09:01 am
I think I built my fleet a bit too much during the free worlds storyline. By the end of it I had 8 Bactrians and a Shield Beetle all equipped with electron beams and a ton of Hai shield regenerators and jump drives. None of my ships even got scratched during any of the big combat heavy missions near the end.

The Bactrians only had 10 cargo space left, but with 8 shield regenerators, 5 electron beams, and enough power to keep everything firing nonstop - they were super ships. Far outperforming any NPC ship configuration. The Bactrian is really overpowered compared to every other ship in the game though, at least when kitted out with the right outfits. Has way more outfit space than anything else out there once you convert the cargo.
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: puke on February 10, 2016, 11:06:19 am
started my second play through, so I could try out a few things I missed.

Made a point of getting my combat rating up early, so I could dominate the various pirate worlds before plot events happened.. also so I could get the Kestrel before the campaign was over.

Sadly, the Kestrel just does not hold a candle up to a Bacterain or a Shield Beetle.  It is fast (thanks to the 'drag' number, i guess) but it still turns like a pig and just does not have enough space to power and cool all of its weapons.

I ended up kitting it out with mostly Wanderer tech, since it is power and heat efficient.  But that ends up meaning that it is a little under-powered in the shield and gun department, especially compared to my SBs.

I saw this "espionage" mission in the files, and spend a long time trying to get it.  I think the trouble is that it has very specific requirements about the distance you need to be from the various waypoints to qualify for the mission -- as well as requiring a fairly high Syndicate rep.

So I got my Syndicate rep high by farming jump drives from the Korlath, and went looking for the mission.  Finally got it at Castor.

It is nice because it is one of exactly TWO opportunities to use your scanners.  It is lame because it payout is low and it is hard to find, and requires lots of jumps.

I have some ideas about adding other missions that would use scanners, maybe I'll try to mod them in and contribute to the Git repository.
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: puke on February 10, 2016, 02:18:16 pm
okay, the Corporate Espionage missions?  Borked.

I have gotten two of them, so far.  First one, I initially missed the ship but manged to locate it after it left the system and came back.  I didn't get credit for scanning it, though, and it pretty much vanished after that.  I checked my save file to find its location, and as soon as I entered that system I got credit for the scan (did not hit 'S' again).

Second time I got one, I got credit for the scan as soon as the target came within range of my scanners.  Was just waiting in the system for it, and I got the popup window before I even hit 'S'.  makes me wonder if I even needed the scanner installed in the first place?

But the FW missions actually make proper use of scanning, so it must work at some level.  Will have to compare the mission parameters in the data files.
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: Darkening Kaos on March 01, 2016, 02:36:18 am
Spoiler: So, that's why you were easy to defeat (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: McTraveller on April 01, 2016, 08:05:53 am
Quote from: Darkening Kaos on March 01, 2016, 02:36:18 am
So, that's why you were easy to defeat...
I find it immensely amusing that this game has ships flying around space carrying grandfather clocks and applesauce.
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: a1s on April 02, 2016, 11:09:23 am
Quote from: McTraveller on April 01, 2016, 08:05:53 am
I find it immensely amusing that this game has ships flying around space carrying grandfather clocks and applesauce.
Are you also surprised by automobiles carrying applesauce? That stuff is at least as old as the middle ages, possibly Rome. Even in a world when refined sugar is available in every cornerstore,  applesauce is still popular, no reason it wouldn't be in the Space Age*.

(*) I meant the other space age. Although it was quite popular in the 1960-80s.
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: Shadowlord on April 02, 2016, 11:19:41 am
Just call it the Spice Age~

The Spice must flow
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: puke on April 02, 2016, 02:11:36 pm
he who controls the applesauce, controls the universe?
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: puke on July 01, 2016, 03:16:22 pm
There have been some updates to this, so I thought I'd pick it up again and play through, see how the alien mission lines have changed, and see how things have been re-balanced.

As a trial, I bought one of each cargo ship you can buy, except the Wanderer ones.  Stripped them down, added efficient outfits, and as much cargo expansion as they could take.

Bactrain is still the best cargo hauler with over 900 capacity, and I hadn't even bothered to de-tune it's shields and engine.

Others do have better cost-per-jump ratios due to smaller crew size, so I will concede that.


Did the same for troop ships.  Tried a Star Queen, just because I was desperate for it to be useful, as well as all the heavy transports again.

Bactrain is still the best troop ship with 423, and I could optimize it further.

Tried to make a Flivver as a speedy race machine.  Didn't work, still a useless piece of shit.

Made a Scout as a speedy race machine with lots of fuel and the best engines it can take.  Has awesome range, but turns like a pig compared to (guess which) my combat optimized BACTRAIN, just because old Baccy can have bigger engines on it.

So it is still "one ship does it all".  Shield Beetles MAY be better dedicated combat ships (bit of a personal preference thing), but if you intend to board anything you'll want a Bactrain as your flagship.

So it is still pretty much the Bactrain game.  Yawn.
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: QuakeIV on July 01, 2016, 10:18:19 pm
the bactrain has no brakes
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: puke on July 02, 2016, 05:29:44 am
Quote from: QuakeIV on July 01, 2016, 10:18:19 pm
the bactrain has no brakes

I usually try to pronounce it as "bacterian" so "bactrain" (choo-choo!) is a tasteful compromise.

I'm not really sure what the intended name or its entomology is.  My brain can't parse it.
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: Culise on July 02, 2016, 01:54:49 pm
Quote from: puke on July 02, 2016, 05:29:44 am
Quote from: QuakeIV on July 01, 2016, 10:18:19 pm
the bactrain has no brakes

I usually try to pronounce it as "bacterian" so "bactrain" (choo-choo!) is a tasteful compromise.

I'm not really sure what the intended name or its entomology is.  My brain can't parse it.
The ship draws its name from the camel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactrian_camel), which derives its English name from the region of Bactria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria).
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: puke on July 03, 2016, 05:25:02 am
Nice, thanks!
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: puke on July 05, 2016, 09:09:28 am
Okay, I may have judged the new updated a little harshly.

Looks like there is an expanded region of alien space, and a bunch of new hulls and outfits that are only available via capture.

There are also a few new civilian / pirate carrier class ships, and a bunch of new missions.

Fun to play with again, even if the bactrain

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

is still the only ship worth flying
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: E. Albright on July 05, 2016, 05:15:48 pm
349s are wonderful, but yes, for flagships nothing competes with a Bactrian, even at the next tier up. And it's not like it would be that hard to balance it; there's just no will to do so. Increase its minimum crew to something more on par with other large warships its size (I'd say double it), throw on an extra 800-1k empty mass, give it +50% engine capacity to compensate, make it a licensed purchase like its description implies, and there might actually be question as to what's the best flagship. A Korath Raider is supposed to be Tier 2 vs. the Bactrian's 1-1.5, but Raiders are no better or worse on almost every score. Even the fanboi argument of "oh, Bactrians aren't the best at everything, they're just the most flexible" is laughable, because they're basically "jack of all trades, and master of most"...
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: puke on July 06, 2016, 06:39:11 am
Quote from: E. Albright on July 05, 2016, 05:15:48 pm
Even the fanboi argument of "oh, Bactrians aren't the best at everything, they're just the most flexible" is laughable, because they're basically "jack of all trades, and master of most"...

This is exactly my grievance.  The real shame is that it seems as if lots of effort went into balancing outfits.  For example, Wanderer outfits are a nice balance of features (heat, power, weight) but you can get better pure performance out of dedicated outfits.

Even outfits are not perfect, the new Hai thrusters seem a little underwhelming and mostly seem to fit a niche in that they occupy odd-mass-numbers in between the superior Deep thrusters.  Hai powerplants are efficient, but generally worse than others, or so they seem at my casual analysis.

The new Kor stuff appears to be generally "better" than most things, in terms of dedicated power output, cooling, and those awesome "core" devices.  But there are cases where I'd rather have Wanderer outfits, or Hai.  So that is balanced, right?  There are various reasons to prefer one over another in different circumstances.  That is sort of what game balance MEANS.

But the Bac... you cant even begin to make arguments for other ships as you can with the outfits above.  It is just better.  If it is going to be the jack-of-all-trades, then fucking MAKE SURE that there is a better troop ship (there isnt).  MAKE SURE there is a better cargo carrier (there isnt for flagship boarding/raiding, but there is for crew-to-cargo ratio).  MAKE SURE another heavy hull out-guns it (only carrier/cruiser have more weapon capacity).  And do it with human tech, which should be vaguely balanced against its self.

If some alien ship -- or even the Kestrel -- was quantifiable the best, I wouldn't have such a problem with it.  But the Bac is a common hull that anyone can buy and is just plain better.  And there is no desire to fix it.

I saw the developer state that it was balanced in terms of price, that a legion of smaller ships was better economically.  I feel like that is kind of bullshit; by the time you are buying fleets that size, price is less of an issue than managing your ship inventory.  I don't want more than 10-20 ships in a fleet, the notion that 100 light warships should replace 10 heavy ones for the same cost is just silly.

Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: E. Albright on July 06, 2016, 02:00:15 pm
IIRC Hai engines and reactors are as good or very slightly better than Deep engines, but they're only available in smaller sizes. The net effect is that sometimes their stuff is preferable, and sometimes the Deep stuff is. Their batteries and anti-missiles are just flat-out superior though.

Bizarre how that means in some circumstances one thing might be desirable and in others another thing is... *subtly thwacks dead camel again*
Title: Re: Endless Sky -- EV-like, free and open source, with a sprawling storyline
Post by: E. Albright on March 15, 2017, 10:28:24 pm
Necro? Necro.


There have been a few more updates, and more higher-tier stuff has been put out. Some of it is quite cool. Most ofl the Coalition ships are just downright pretty. Oh, and asteroid mining is a thing, though it feels clunky and is kinda annoying. And looting isn't quite so much as an absurd only-sane-way-to-make-money loot pile because parts depreciate in value now.

However, there's still precisely zero reason to get off the Bactrain.

The ES community is in some respects thoroughly appalling.

I just finished watching a fiercely-fought month-or-so PR campaign from a number of content devs to force very minor nerfs that would not reduce the Bac's predominance as the only real flagship choice. The fanbois exploded, and rallied against the injustice, and made their typical argument that the real problem was that there was no Bactrian 2.0 to be even more OP and to finally lure you onto a different platform. And the content devs, and a good part of the community pushed back, and they seemed to make progress and garner support for their change... and then they folded. The Bac will still reign supreme, though other human factions will get something Bactrian-ish but specialized (e.g., the Syndicate's camel clone will be better at cargo compared to other ships in the class "OP Tier 1 ship"), while the Bac will get a minor nerf to be named latter. However... I'm very guardedly optimistic. This smacks of power creep, but it's also possible the devs got sick of making the same argument over and over, and are just going to try to ram a nerf down the end user's throat as a fait accompli. Assuming they have the main dev on board. Which seems more hopeful than it used to, but I'm still not truly optimistic. And in any case, as a slow-moving open-source volunteer project, it'll probably be six months before the changes see daylight. But development does roll on...