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Finally... => General Discussion => Topic started by: Azkanan on November 19, 2011, 11:35:54 am

Title: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Azkanan on November 19, 2011, 11:35:54 am
Brussels bureaucrats were ridiculed yesterday after banning drink manufacturers from claiming that water can prevent dehydration.

By Victoria Ward and Nick Collins
6:20AM GMT 18 Nov 2011 (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8897662/EU-bans-claim-that-water-can-prevent-dehydration.html)



EU officials concluded that, following a three-year investigation, there was no evidence to prove the previously undisputed fact.

Producers of bottled water are now forbidden by law from making the claim and will face a two-year jail sentence if they defy the edict, which comes into force in the UK next month.

Last night, critics claimed the EU was at odds with both science and common sense. Conservative MEP Roger Helmer said: “This is stupidity writ large.

“The euro is burning, the EU is falling apart and yet here they are: highly-paid, highly-pensioned officials worrying about the obvious qualities of water and trying to deny us the right to say what is patently true.

“If ever there were an episode which demonstrates the folly of the great European project then this is it.”

NHS health guidelines state clearly that drinking water helps avoid dehydration, and that Britons should drink at least 1.2 litres per day.

The Department for Health disputed the wisdom of the new law. A spokesman said: “Of course water hydrates. While we support the EU in preventing false claims about products, we need to exercise common sense as far as possible."

German professors Dr Andreas Hahn and Dr Moritz Hagenmeyer, who advise food manufacturers on how to advertise their products, asked the European Commission if the claim could be made on labels.

They compiled what they assumed was an uncontroversial statement in order to test new laws which allow products to claim they can reduce the risk of disease, subject to EU approval.

They applied for the right to state that “regular consumption of significant amounts of water can reduce the risk of development of dehydration” as well as preventing a decrease in performance.

However, last February, the European Food Standards Authority (EFSA) refused to approve the statement.

A meeting of 21 scientists in Parma, Italy, concluded that reduced water content in the body was a symptom of dehydration and not something that drinking water could subsequently control.

Now the EFSA verdict has been turned into an EU directive which was issued on Wednesday.

Ukip MEP Paul Nuttall said the ruling made the “bendy banana law” look “positively sane”.

He said: “I had to read this four or five times before I believed it. It is a perfect example of what Brussels does best. Spend three years, with 20 separate pieces of correspondence before summoning 21 professors to Parma where they decide with great solemnity that drinking water cannot be sold as a way to combat dehydration.

“Then they make this judgment law and make it clear that if anybody dares sell water claiming that it is effective against dehydration they could get into serious legal bother.

EU regulations, which aim to uphold food standards across member states, are frequently criticised.

Rules banning bent bananas and curved cucumbers were scrapped in 2008 after causing international ridicule.

Prof Hahn, from the Institute for Food Science and Human Nutrition at Hanover Leibniz University, said the European Commission had made another mistake with its latest ruling.

“What is our reaction to the outcome? Let us put it this way: We are neither surprised nor delighted.

“The European Commission is wrong; it should have authorised the claim. That should be more than clear to anyone who has consumed water in the past, and who has not? We fear there is something wrong in the state of Europe.”

Prof Brian Ratcliffe, spokesman for the Nutrition Society, said dehydration was usually caused by a clinical condition and that one could remain adequately hydrated without drinking water.

He said: “The EU is saying that this does not reduce the risk of dehydration and that is correct.

“This claim is trying to imply that there is something special about bottled water which is not a reasonable claim.”
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Phmcw on November 19, 2011, 11:40:28 am
So get me right, some guys wanted to market water as a some thing that prevent dehydration, the EC fact checked, and find that, in fact in does not.

Cue lobbyist paid by said companies issuing grossly populists statement to try to turn their decision.

Your title is wrong btw : Science, water does not prevent  dehydration.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Flying Dice on November 19, 2011, 11:42:28 am
Regarding that final line: If that was what was actually happening, this would be borderline reasonable. If they were trying to say that bottled water is no better than tap water (which is true, not least because so much bottled water is purified tap water), all well and good, but the statement was unclear and now they sound like loonies.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on November 19, 2011, 11:44:05 am
Water does not prevent dehydration. It cures it.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Darvi on November 19, 2011, 11:45:03 am
Everybody get armed. It's obvious that aliens are manipulating worldwide authorities into downright retardation so that they can invade us easier.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Nilocy on November 19, 2011, 11:46:10 am
Water does not prevent dehydration. It cures it.

This.

I think the issue at heart here, is that Eurosceptics got the majority of cover in this article in this rightwing news paper...
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Flying Dice on November 19, 2011, 11:46:59 am
Water does not prevent dehydration. It cures it.

This.

I think the issue at heart here, is that Eurosceptics got the majority of cover in this article in this rightwing news paper...

+1. It feels like there is information missing.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Phmcw on November 19, 2011, 11:47:18 am
Yes, I don't know in the US but I've heard that drinking a lot of water prevent dehydration, as in, make you less prone to dehydration.
If that fact is false, as in drinking any liquid perform just as well, then it should not be on the bottles.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Flying Dice on November 19, 2011, 11:50:01 am
Yes, I don't know in the US but I've heard that drinking a lot of water prevent dehydration, as in, make you less prone to dehydration.
If that fact is false, as in drinking any liquid perform just as well, then it should not be on the bottles.

It is more that drinking water helps get rid of dehydration, rather than prevent it, which is at the crux of the claim here. Looking over it again, this actually seems to be a reasonable ruling, with the article relying on kneejerk reactions. Drinking nothing but soda and energy drinks will not end well, either.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: ChairmanPoo on November 19, 2011, 11:50:47 am
I think the point is that not all instances of dehydration are treatable by just drinking water.

Or, more to the point, that it's not necessarily true people should necessarily drink 1,2 litres of water a day in order to avoid dehydration. Look at this:
Quote

They compiled what they assumed was an uncontroversial statement in order to test new laws which allow products to claim they can reduce the risk of disease, subject to EU approval.

They applied for the right to state that “regular consumption of significant amounts of water can reduce the risk of development of dehydration” as well as preventing a decrease in performance.

However, last February, the European Food Standards Authority (EFSA) refused to approve the statement.

As obvious as it might sound, you can't come forward with a public health guideline based on "common knowledge" or "it is self-evident that...". You need epidemiological data to support it.


By the way, is it just me or that newspaper's bias radiates out of the screen?
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: ECrownofFire on November 19, 2011, 11:51:48 am
By the way, is it just me or that newspaper's bias radiates out of the screen?
It doesn't radiate, it reaches out and slaps you in the face.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: MonkeyHead on November 19, 2011, 11:52:12 am
Telegraph = Highly conservative and Eurosceptic newspaper sensing another opportunity to rant about "dumb european laws"... sure similar has been done in the past about bannanas being too bent and the correct nomenclature for chocolate...
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Telgin on November 19, 2011, 11:56:11 am
Water does not prevent dehydration. It cures it.

Agreed.  This is probably what they should have said instead, which feels like a fair claim in my book.  Especially if that's what, you know, testing showed.  People will jump on band wagons and shout at stuff they don't understand, but I suppose the science in question here didn't do a whole lot to make its claim obvious.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on November 19, 2011, 11:56:24 am
What the fuck am I reading.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 19, 2011, 12:01:19 pm
BRB - Throwing out all my water.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: MarcAFK on November 19, 2011, 12:07:29 pm
I think 'mild dehydration' basically amounts to any dehydration that is curable by the consumption of water alone, if people can decide that their headache or whatever is a 'mild ache or pain' requiring over the counter drugs then i don't see why people shi are thirsty can't decide they are mildly dehydrated enough to require water ...
And personally if i don't drink water frequently i get horrendiously dehydrated, i'm probably diabetic or something.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Akura on November 19, 2011, 12:16:56 pm
Water does not prevent dehydration. It cures it.
In the US, that statement would make the FDA classify water as a drug, since according to FDA guidelines, only a drug can cure something.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Bauglir on November 19, 2011, 12:23:42 pm
I'm pretty sure that drinking sufficient quantities of water regularly prevents dehydration from occurring in the first place. Unless you choose to define dehydration as the process of losing water for some reason in which case only stillsuits can do that.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Flying Dice on November 19, 2011, 12:25:28 pm
I'm pretty sure that drinking sufficient quantities of water regularly prevents dehydration from occurring in the first place. Unless you choose to define dehydration as the process of losing water for some reason in which case only stillsuits can do that.

As I recall, all humans are constantly undergoing the process of dehydration. Drinking water counters the effects of this. It isn't a matter of "I drank a liter of water so I am not going to be dehydrated for a while", but of "I drank a liter of water so I am much less dehydrated now".
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: mainiac on November 19, 2011, 12:25:29 pm
ITT, people act as unwitting corporate shills by jumping on the bandwagon to turn an obscure technical definition they have no real context of into an example of governmental incompetence.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Sensei on November 19, 2011, 12:26:18 pm
Yes, I don't know in the US but I've heard that drinking a lot of water prevent dehydration, as in, make you less prone to dehydration.
If that fact is false, as in drinking any liquid perform just as well, then it should not be on the bottles.
It's worth saying, drinking soda pop is not nearly as effective.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: TheBronzePickle on November 19, 2011, 12:35:05 pm
Drinking any liquid with a solute in it is a lot less effective at stopping dehydration. The entire idea of dehydration is a hypertonic environment in the body compared to the body's normal functional level of blood concentration.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: kaijyuu on November 19, 2011, 12:37:57 pm
ITT, people act as unwitting corporate shills by jumping on the bandwagon to turn an obscure technical definition they have no real context of into an example of governmental incompetence.
Pretty much.

There are jobs solely devoted to making you think the way they want you to think. Advertising obviously gets products known, but it also attempts to *make* you want it. Plus, obviously, stuff like this. And the people that do it are damn good at it.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Bauglir on November 19, 2011, 01:06:50 pm
I'm pretty sure that drinking sufficient quantities of water regularly prevents dehydration from occurring in the first place. Unless you choose to define dehydration as the process of losing water for some reason in which case only stillsuits can do that.

As I recall, all humans are constantly undergoing the process of dehydration. Drinking water counters the effects of this. It isn't a matter of "I drank a liter of water so I am not going to be dehydrated for a while", but of "I drank a liter of water so I am much less dehydrated now".

And if that's the definition you're using this is a reasonable and sensible ruling, it's just that I have seen it used that way only when it was clearly a process in context, and in a technical setting. In common use, it always seems to refer to the state of having uncomfortably little water in the body, not the process of losing that water.

That said it's entirely possible that this difference in usage is entirely cultural, and from the sound of other comments here it probably is. I'd just like to point out that in defending the ruling, you should probably make that clear to the people who think this is ridiculous because they're probably reading it differently.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: G-Flex on November 19, 2011, 01:10:14 pm
I'm pretty sure that drinking sufficient quantities of water regularly prevents dehydration from occurring in the first place. Unless you choose to define dehydration as the process of losing water for some reason in which case only stillsuits can do that.

As I recall, all humans are constantly undergoing the process of dehydration. Drinking water counters the effects of this. It isn't a matter of "I drank a liter of water so I am not going to be dehydrated for a while", but of "I drank a liter of water so I am much less dehydrated now".

Different definitions of "dehydration". You're talking about "dehydration" as the process of losing moisture, whereas the term as-used here is "dehydration" as the condition of being significantly dehydrated to the point where it's unhealthy.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Zrk2 on November 19, 2011, 01:21:19 pm
It's still a stupid ruling.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Phmcw on November 19, 2011, 01:24:31 pm
It's still a stupid ruling.
Then enlighten us, because everyone else in this thread is saying the opposite, so just coming and saying "it's stupid" is kind of insulting.

(I was more thinking about juices and tea. I know pops are just too sugary.)
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Zrk2 on November 19, 2011, 01:26:13 pm
Fact: Dehydration comes from not having a sufficient amount of water in your body.

Fact: Drinking water increases the amount of water in your body.

Therefore, water can combat dehydration.

Therefore this ruling is stupid.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Bdthemag on November 19, 2011, 01:28:13 pm
THAT'S IT

INTERNET CRIME SQUAD TIME.

I am honestly surprised by the amount of times I mentioned the ICS lately :P
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Phmcw on November 19, 2011, 01:35:43 pm
Fact: Dehydration comes from not having a sufficient amount of water in your body.

Fact: Drinking water increases the amount of water in your body.

Therefore, water can combat dehydration.

Therefore this ruling is stupid.

Don't you understand the meaning of "prevent"? I think everyone know that lack of water can be fought by drinking water, what they wanted to sell you is that drinking a lot of water would prevent dehydration, while apparently it's completely useless.
That's false advertising and so should be penalized.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: kaijyuu on November 19, 2011, 01:37:20 pm
Fact: Dehydration comes from not having a sufficient amount of water in your body.

Fact: Drinking water increases the amount of water in your body.

Therefore, water can combat dehydration.

Therefore this ruling is stupid.
The wording is "prevent," not "combat."

Semantics are the core issue here. Their JOB is to prevent advertisers from manipulating wording to say something untrue. It's true that this case is quite trivial, but they can't overlook it just for that.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: ECrownofFire on November 19, 2011, 01:40:30 pm
I think the idea is that drinking water doesn't (permanently) "lower your chances" of being dehydrated, which is how I often see "prevent" being used. Such as brushing your teeth to prevent gum disease.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Necro910 on November 19, 2011, 01:53:52 pm
If I had desk insurance, I'd be rich.

Don't you just LOVE the governments these days?
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: nenjin on November 19, 2011, 02:04:09 pm
This seems equally split between opportunistic journalism, and government stupidity. Everything read normal up until the point where the EU decided this needed to be a law, not just an outcome of a particular claims hearing. That's when they made themselves vulnerable to their critics, and at the worst possible time too.

Quote
“If ever there were an episode which demonstrates the folly of the great European project then this is it.”

Seriously though, that's on line 5 of the article. Would you like some news with your bias?
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: GlyphGryph on November 19, 2011, 02:09:59 pm
For those arguing liquids other than water can prevent/cure/combat/whatever dehydration, you are pretty much 100% wrong. Water is, in fact, the only liquid with that property.

Well, okay, Deuterium Oxide works too, but only to a certain extent. And one could argue that is still water.

As far as the ruling - obviously, it depends on whether you are talking about the condition or the process. Drinking water obviously prevents (or helps to prevent) the condition (for a time), I would think...
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: nenjin on November 19, 2011, 02:18:26 pm
Yeah, I dunno about that. On the one hand, when government decides something, they like to announce it big and loud so they don't have to tell everyone again. That makes sense to me. I just wonder who the commissioner was that was like "Well, we've made the ruling, let's make it official! Read that back to me again!......Yes, perfect. No fallout could possibly come from saying this. We'll set a new standard in bottled water advertising claims!"

These days it seems like the wrong parts of governments are working way too hard, when the parts we care about aren't working hard enough.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: King DZA on November 19, 2011, 02:44:27 pm
Well it's a good thing that the majority of my fluid intake is limited to massive amounts of coffee, otherwise I might actually have to care.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: jasonwill2 on November 19, 2011, 03:02:01 pm
seriously? Last I checked, dehydration wasn't a disease, but just the state of having inadequate WATER in your body and generally being THIRSTY.

Of course consuming water will hydrate you, the word hydrate comes from a root word meaning WATER.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: MonkeyHead on November 19, 2011, 03:19:11 pm
The argument is in semantics. Not walking over train tracks EVER prevents you getting hit by a train EVER. Drinking one bottle of water will not prevent you needing to drink one again later. The word "prevent" does refer to the ability to keep an event from happening or continuing.

Seeing as there are very many different languages within Europe, this could be a problem relating to the lack of a defenite translation of "prevents" between one or more languages - after all synonyms of the word are things like "stops", "ends" or "halts".

That, or water isnt actually the only thing you can drink to end up with a net positive effect on hydration levels, so the courst decision could be made on the right of water companies to use that as a selling point. As I pointed out in an earlier post, the Telegraph is a notoriously eurosceptic conservative paper, so could be telling thier own version of the truth.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: jasonwill2 on November 19, 2011, 03:24:19 pm
Anything you drink that hydrates you has water in it.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: ECrownofFire on November 19, 2011, 03:26:05 pm
Anything you drink that hydrates you has water in it.
Anything you eat, too :P
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: eerr on November 19, 2011, 03:30:29 pm
Now see I got the impression that the scientists think a whole damn bunch of stuff can prevent dehydration.

Thus water isn't unique.



It's like saying, this food cures hunger.

It's not fucking unique!

You wanna make a claim? It actually has to mean shit. or that is the vibe I'm getting from you guyses halfhearted repetition of the scientists.

You know what's unique? gatorade is uniquely formulated to add the correct salts to the body, sugar for energy, and water to combat dehydration.

You know what's unique? Cereal like cheerios has folic acid that is good for your heart.
considering it's been removed from almost all bread products.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: jasonwill2 on November 19, 2011, 03:38:54 pm
Our evolutionary courses are not going to change to the point that what we have lived off for eons (food that is not genetically modified) will change anytime soon.

Sure, I can live off of company grown and genetically modified black berries, but i can also just go pick some domesticted black berries out of my cow field.

Speaking of which I do not need to eat hormone ridden cow meat either, my landlord has too many cows to handle, and if I felt like it I could get one of the smaller ones butchered and store it in the big freezer in my basement.


Also water is unique, it is the MOST effective substance at fighting dehydration, considering it is the main ingredient FOR being hydrated, us being mostly water and all.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: King DZA on November 19, 2011, 03:41:15 pm
I just think the whole thing is pointless, true or not.

They act like the sole reason bottled water sells is because it claims to prevent dehydration. Like after this law is put in place people will be saying, "hmm, I'm pretty thirsty, I think I'll go pick up some bottled water. Wait, what's this? This bottle of water will not prevent my dehydration!? FUCK THAT SHIT!".

the entire thing seems pretty trivial to me. Then again, I go months without drinking just plain water.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: jasonwill2 on November 19, 2011, 03:42:20 pm
Quote
Then again, I go months without drinking just plain water.

thats not healthy dude. i had a cup of water like an hour and a half ago
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: King DZA on November 19, 2011, 03:45:30 pm
Well I drink milk pretty often, and coffee is made with water, so I figure it's close enough.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Flying Dice on November 19, 2011, 03:50:14 pm
Now see I got the impression that the scientists think a whole damn bunch of stuff can prevent dehydration.

Thus water isn't unique.

Actually, yes, it is. Water is the only thing that can reliably and safely lower the level of dehydration in the human body. Everything you consume that lowers dehydration contains water.

Saying that water isn't unique in lowering dehydration because other things with water in them do so also is like saying that eating a pure glucose solution isn't the only way to fuel human metabolism because there are foods which contain glucose.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: palsch on November 19, 2011, 03:54:47 pm
OK, let's try to clear some of this up.

1) This isn't a law. It's a narrow test ruling on a hypothetical proposed wording for a piece of technically wrong health advice, struck down on (appropriately) a hypothetical.

2) The two people who submitted this are also the ones promoting the story, suggesting that was the purpose.

Strangely, the British Soft Drinks Association (http://www.britishsoftdrinks.com/Default.aspx?page=966) managed to sum things up rationally;
Quote
The stories in some of the newspapers this morning (18 November) do not quite capture the whole picture regarding the approval of health claims relating to water and hydration.

The European Food Safety Authority has been asked to rule on several ways of wording the statement that drinking water is good for hydration and therefore good for health.  It rejected some wordings on technicalities, but it has supported claims that drinking water is good for normal physical and cognitive functions and normal thermoregulation.  These recommended claims are awaiting formal confirmation from the European Commission.

EFSA recommends that, to benefit from the effects of drinking water, one should consume at least 2 litres of water a day, or 2.5 litres for a man.  Water is the major component of all soft drinks.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Roboboy33 on November 19, 2011, 03:58:00 pm
This is them just being assholes.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: DJ on November 19, 2011, 03:59:49 pm
Saying that water isn't unique in lowering dehydration because other things with water in them do so also is like saying that eating a pure glucose solution isn't the only way to fuel human metabolism because there are foods which contain glucose.
But I thought you can use fatty acids in place of glucose. No such replacement exists for water.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Sensei on November 19, 2011, 04:21:46 pm
It's like saying, this food cures hunger.
To be fair, I think that if someone put a label on their food product that says "Cures hunger!" or "Prevents hunger!" nobody would have problem with it. In fact they would probably just get a chuckle out of it.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Phmcw on November 19, 2011, 05:18:03 pm
I think some of you don't get the problem. Europe has ruled that our advertising should be sane, and that health claim had to be verified.
Therefore, companies that sell bottled water asked if they could use "prevent dehydration" as a selling point.
The agency charged with that task proceeded to check if that fact was truly a selling point of bottled water.

For a reason unknown, they found out that, in fact, no. For one it doesn't prevent dehydration, but probably more to the point, because a glass of orange juice or a cup of tea does the exact same job. Which mean that if you buy a bottle of Evian or whatever specifically because you fear dehydration (and it may be a concern) , then you have been scammed.

This ruling is therefore sound and a sign that there may be agencies of the EU that are still working well.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: jasonwill2 on November 19, 2011, 06:31:00 pm
This is them just being assholes.

sigged
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Jackrabbit on November 19, 2011, 06:52:10 pm
I really think that unless this took up a lot of time and money that could have been spent on something important, which it doesn't seem like it did, it's not worth getting worked up about.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Flying Dice on November 19, 2011, 07:32:04 pm
Saying that water isn't unique in lowering dehydration because other things with water in them do so also is like saying that eating a pure glucose solution isn't the only way to fuel human metabolism because there are foods which contain glucose.
But I thought you can use fatty acids in place of glucose. No such replacement exists for water.

Fair enough. Hm.


...is like saying that death isn't the only way to get rid of life, because people can die of things other than natural causes. That probably has a flaw in it as well.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: scriver on November 19, 2011, 07:56:45 pm
If they mean dehydration as the process of losing water from your body, then drinking water - or anything - sure won't prevent it. It'll refill yout water reserves, sure, but your body will continue to use up/loose water (dehydrate) all the same.

It's like saying filling up your car with new gas prevents gas being used up by the combustion process.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Derekristow on November 19, 2011, 08:07:47 pm
Now see I got the impression that the scientists think a whole damn bunch of stuff can prevent dehydration.

Thus water isn't unique.

Actually, yes, it is. Water is the only thing that can reliably and safely lower the level of dehydration in the human body. Everything you consume that lowers dehydration contains water.

Saying that water isn't unique in lowering dehydration because other things with water in them do so also is like saying that eating a pure glucose solution isn't the only way to fuel human metabolism because there are foods which contain glucose.
I think he was referring specifically to bottled water, rather than the chemical itself.  I see the problem being in either the semantics of the word 'prevent', or the implication that bottled water and bottled water alone can cure dehydration.

But I thought you can use fatty acids in place of glucose. No such replacement exists for water.
The body uses different fuel sources for different reasons.  Glucose is generally needed for short periods of intense activity, so you might be able to live without it, but it would be difficult.  Not to mention any chemicals the body may create from it.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Bauglir on November 20, 2011, 12:48:08 am
Your body can convert other energy sources into glucose. So it's actually a really weird example. You don't actually need to eat any, but it is required for many metabolic processes. Vitamins might be a better example, since your body can't manufacture them (by definition).

More importantly, it's likely to be a reasonable ruling in the context it was made. It sounds like the equivalent of somebody saying, "Hitler was right that a vegetarian diet can be healthy" and everybody starts shouting that I said "Hitler was right". If the connotation of the phrasing of the claim in some language suggests something that isn't true, it was right to deny that use, in the same way it'd be right to deny that Vitamin A prevents scurvy.

Also, just a few comments. Spoilered for being tangents.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: GlyphGryph on November 20, 2011, 01:26:13 am
Quote
Vitamins might be a better example, since your body can't manufacture them (by definition).

Hmm... that doesn't seem right. What about vitamin D?
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Bauglir on November 20, 2011, 01:30:33 am
>___> The definition is more guidelines than actual rules.

Okay really what I should say is that your body can't manufacture them in sufficient quantities no matter how much you provide in the way of raw materials.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: GlyphGryph on November 20, 2011, 01:40:15 am
Ah, nevermind - apparently Vitamin D is a vitamin much like "y" is a vowel.

Specifically, it is only a vitamin in circumstances where you need more of it than your body can produce - to those who work outside in the sun all day, vitamin D does not exist. :P

Oddly enough, that means D is a vitamin, a not-a-vitamin, and a toxin. (only when digested, though)

Ah, the joys of categorization.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Bauglir on November 20, 2011, 01:51:02 am
Oh right, and the sunlight thing which means that you can actually supply enough raw materials and... Y'know what? Fuck vitamin D. Fuck it right in its smug little atoms. That's right, science. I said it.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: scriver on November 20, 2011, 04:10:58 am
Ah, nevermind - apparently Vitamin D is a vitamin much like "y" is a vowel.

...It's a vitamin in other languagesorganisms than English?
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Melagius on November 20, 2011, 05:38:03 pm
Lol, europe.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: GlyphGryph on November 20, 2011, 05:48:57 pm
"y" is a vowel in English.

Occasionally.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Darvi on November 20, 2011, 06:38:43 pm
Also appropriately named, because "WHYYYYYY?"
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Roboboy33 on November 20, 2011, 06:54:11 pm
Water can prevent dehydration, just gotta drink it every so often.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 21, 2011, 04:17:19 pm
Water can prevent dehydration, just gotta drink it every so often.
No, drinking water simply forestalls dehydration and its subsequent consequences.

Entropy (or, as it is known colloquially: Death) is a chronic condition which we all suffer from, and it manifests itself as symptoms such as dehydration, hunger, aging, etc. One cannot 'cure' death (yet), one can only treat the symptoms and forestall the eventual conclusion.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: GlyphGryph on November 21, 2011, 04:21:01 pm
Quote
No, drinking water simply forestalls dehydration and its subsequent consequences.

Is there another definition of "prevent" that I'm unaware of?

"Prevent:
*to hold or keep back
*to interpose an obstacle''

Synonyms: avert, forestall, head off, help, obviate, preclude, stave off"
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Darvi on November 21, 2011, 04:22:02 pm
Synonyms:[...]help
Wait what?
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on November 21, 2011, 04:24:10 pm
I can't help it.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 21, 2011, 04:27:26 pm
Quote
No, drinking water simply forestalls dehydration and its subsequent consequences.

Is there another definition of "prevent" that I'm unaware of?

"Prevent:
*to hold or keep back
*to interpose an obstacle''

Synonyms: avert, forestall, head off, help, obviate, preclude, stave off"

Prevention implies that it will never happen. You'll eventually dehydrate no matter how much water you drink. It may happen once you're dead, it may happen 1000 years after you die if you fall into a river or something.

You can prevent chicken pox if you get a vaccine. If the vaccine is effective for you (~70% iirc) then you will not get chicken pox.
You can prevent yourself from falling out a window by not going near windows.
You can prevent yourself from catching a cold by limiting your contact with people who have colds (actually, limit yourself from contact with all people. People are disgusting)
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: scriver on November 21, 2011, 04:32:21 pm
Quote
No, drinking water simply forestalls dehydration and its subsequent consequences.

Is there another definition of "prevent" that I'm unaware of?

"Prevent:
*to hold or keep back
*to interpose an obstacle''

Synonyms: avert, forestall, head off, help, obviate, preclude, stave off"

Yeah, but as dehydration is always going on, no matter how much water you have in your body, it can never be prevented. The only way to prevent dehydration is to be completely devoid of water, that is, already dehydrated.

Yeah, I still assume it's the verb form. It's the only way to make this logical.

...Kind of ninja'd.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: GlyphGryph on November 21, 2011, 04:53:39 pm
There's no generally accepted definition of dehydration, even as a verb (which in this case, would more likely be "dehydrating", to make any sense) that simply means loss of water. By its very nature, it only refers to a condition or process involving excessive loss of water, to the point of deficiency.

Technically, the condition isn't even exclusively reserved to losing water - it can have other causes too, and that is probably what this is about. It only prevents dehydration due to water loss, but does nothing for hypotonic or hyponatremic dehydration.

Quote
Prevention implies that it will never happen.
Citation?

Also
Quote
You can prevent yourself from falling out a window by not going near windows.
Until you go near a window, obviously.
Quote
You can prevent yourself from catching a cold by limiting your contact with people who have colds (actually, limit yourself from contact with all people. People are disgusting)
Again, until you go near someone with a cold.

Specifically, drinking water prevents dehydration (certain types of it), as long as you continue drinking water. Obviously if you cease the activity that works as prevention, the thing it prevents can happen.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: kaijyuu on November 21, 2011, 05:09:00 pm
Next thing you know, water will be categorized as an addictive drug that humanity just happens to need every day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrogen_monoxide_hoax
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 21, 2011, 05:12:22 pm
Citation?

I was being deliberately pedantic and silly. This wasn't a real argument. I was pointing out how silly the whole thing is.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Nadaka on November 21, 2011, 05:13:00 pm
Yes, I don't know in the US but I've heard that drinking a lot of water prevent dehydration, as in, make you less prone to dehydration.
If that fact is false, as in drinking any liquid perform just as well, then it should not be on the bottles.

quote from the first page.. Any liquid?

Pretty sure that drinking 180 proof alcohol or mineral oil will not perform as well as water.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 21, 2011, 05:14:30 pm
Yes, I don't know in the US but I've heard that drinking a lot of water prevent dehydration, as in, make you less prone to dehydration.
If that fact is false, as in drinking any liquid perform just as well, then it should not be on the bottles.

quote from the first page.. Any liquid?

Pretty sure that drinking 180 proof alcohol or mineral oil will not perform as well as water.
Hey, liquid oxygen is a liquid! I WILL DRINK IT FOR ANTI-DEHYDRATION!
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: GlyphGryph on November 21, 2011, 05:27:18 pm
Quote
We know we won't be dehydrated if we drink it. Does it really matter what's on the label?

Well, I think this is the real issue. Water, especially highly filtered water, is not always enough to prevent dehydration, because not having enough water is one of two possible causes (and most causes of dehydration prevent both).

Gatorade is allowed to claim it prevents dehydration, I imagine, because it actually prevents both kinds, while water only prevents the one.

Quote
I was being deliberately pedantic and silly. This wasn't a real argument. I was pointing out how silly the whole thing is.
You're face isn't a real argument. Also, I don't believe you. If you want to prove it wasn't a real argument, I expect references to third party sources providing evidentiary support for such a conclusion.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Leafsnail on November 21, 2011, 05:51:45 pm
It could also be that saying a drink "prevents dehydration" is completely meaningless since basically all drinks are based on water and any drink based on water will hydrate you at least temporarily (other than extreme diuretics or stuff that makes you throw up).  So you ban a misleading claim that may imply that the drink is somehow better than normal water for hydration?
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Darvi on November 21, 2011, 05:55:56 pm
I assume it's the lack of minerals?
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 21, 2011, 06:04:25 pm
I assume it's the lack of minerals?
Wouldn't that be malnutrition?
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Dsarker on November 21, 2011, 06:23:07 pm
Specifically, a lack of salts which prevent the body from using the water. Which you lose when you sweat.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 21, 2011, 06:24:16 pm
Specifically, a lack of salts which prevent the body from using the water. Which you lose when you sweat.
Right but dehydration is a loss of water, not a lack of salt. So... if anything a lack of salt would be malnutrition.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Dsarker on November 21, 2011, 06:27:37 pm
No. Because having a lack of salts means that you can drink all the water you want, but not get hydrated.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 21, 2011, 06:29:20 pm
No. Because having a lack of salts means that you can drink all the water you want, but not get hydrated.
But the lack of salts isn't a lack of water which is what dehydration is!
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Darvi on November 21, 2011, 06:31:48 pm
Lack of salt causes a disability to absorb said water though.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 21, 2011, 06:32:20 pm
Lack of salt causes a disability to absorb said water though.
Maybe when you lack salts you are... desalinated?

 8)
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: scriver on November 21, 2011, 07:41:33 pm
The argument wasn't that no salt == dehydration, it was that not drinking water is not the only way to get dehydrated, hence a bottle of water can't promise it will prevent dehydration, because if the dehydration is caused by lack of salt drinking water won't do shit.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Nilik on November 21, 2011, 08:42:04 pm
First the speed of light and now this. Well that's it. Science is clearly wrong. All of it.

Throw out all your electronic devices, we're starting over with magic instead.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: GlyphGryph on November 21, 2011, 08:45:34 pm
But our electronic devices already /run/ on magic! An invisible, pervasive force we barely understand, built through the combination of rare materials (for the physical) and symbols arranged in specific ways to create the desired effect? That sounds like magic to me...
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: kaijyuu on November 21, 2011, 08:46:20 pm
Throw out all your electronic devices, we're starting over with magic instead.
Sounds good. I'll start researching elemental alchemy right away.

Combine fire and water and you get... steam! Amazing!
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: GlyphGryph on November 21, 2011, 09:20:16 pm
No, no! You're doing it wrong, you've wrapped right back around to science!
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Sheb on November 22, 2011, 02:31:55 pm
They're talking about bottled water here. You can live fine without that one.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: GlyphGryph on November 22, 2011, 02:50:17 pm
The issue is, you might be able to say it "helps" prevent dehydration, but it is not, in fact, enough to prevent dehydration alone, since lack of water is only one possible cause of dehydration, so you can't say it "prevents" dehydration all by itself.

Although I just realized the original quote actually says "significant quantities of water reduces the risk of developing dehydration", so it might be a combination of the above AND the whole "significant" thing.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 22, 2011, 02:54:40 pm
So what you're telling me is that I really need to drink water and have enough salts in my diet to remain hydrated?

So... we should all drink ocean water to remain hydrated! SCIENCE!
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: GlyphGryph on November 22, 2011, 02:55:13 pm
No, no, MAGIC!
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 22, 2011, 03:07:24 pm
No, no, MAGIC!
No no no, magic is measured in Merlins and science is measured in Newtons. This is entirely different!
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Sergius on November 22, 2011, 03:12:31 pm
Ok, I don't know if the conclusion makes sense or not, or that water can or cannot prevent dehydration, but in both cases it's a meaningless thing to put in advertisement. Besides the "significant amounts" part. "MORE WATER" != better. Enough water - not too little, not too much. Too much water can cause a loss of electrolytes (THIS IS BAD, YOU CAN TURN INTO A PILE OF GOO, OR EXPLODE LIKE THAT GUY IN "THE TUXEDO"). Tap water actually has minerals added partly for this reason.

You like-a da water, yeah? The water is good, ah? I get you more water!

You don't like it? Ahh. You like a leetle bit of water. You don't like too much, huh? Leetle bit-a water ees good!

You enjoy.


Also, I would stop people from making that kind of statements in their advertisements just like I would ban Pringles for saying "Eating significant amounts of Pringles can help prevent a lack of Pringle-powder in your organism."
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Bauglir on November 22, 2011, 04:25:04 pm
It sounds like the equivalent of somebody saying, "Hitler was right that a vegetarian diet can be healthy" and everybody starts shouting that I said "Hitler was right".

I think this describes fairly well what's going on here.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 22, 2011, 04:47:11 pm
"Hitler was right".
REPORTED YOU TERRIBAD PERSON
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Dsarker on November 22, 2011, 04:48:22 pm
Tempted to sig you out of context....
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Bauglir on November 22, 2011, 05:03:31 pm
Do eeet.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Dsarker on November 22, 2011, 05:10:23 pm
It is done!
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: Virex on November 22, 2011, 06:30:25 pm
Hold on a second, we're talking about Der Dritte Union here, not some backwater would-be leader that killed someone's dog and drew vulgar signs on people's clothing. Our rights to put baseless claims on water bottles and sell them at a premium are important!
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: justinlee999 on November 23, 2011, 02:08:34 am
brb replacing water with cola.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: MonkeyHead on November 23, 2011, 11:43:25 am
Quote
"Eating significant amounts of Pringles can help prevent a lack of Pringle-powder in your organism."

I was so very much not paying attention while reading this, and thought the last word said something very different, before vomitlaughing a mouthful of coke all over my laptop...
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: chaoticag on November 23, 2011, 01:11:14 pm
While the claim that water prevents dehydration, or water hydrates works from a day to day perspective, it can actually get you killed under some circumstances, albeit those are rare in the modernized areas of the world.

The biggest problem is more or less Cholera, if you have it, then no matter how much bottled water, or tap water you get, you will not be able to keep hydrated without adding minerals to it. So the claim can possibly, under some circumstances, lead to your death. Just thought it'd be interesting to note.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: MonkeyHead on November 23, 2011, 03:36:49 pm
Drowning. That cures dehydration - permenantly.
Title: Re: Law: water can not prevent dehydration
Post by: forsaken1111 on November 23, 2011, 03:38:18 pm
Drowning. That cures dehydration - permenantly.
DEATH CURES ALL ILLNESSES EVEN AGING