Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF General Discussion => Official DF Tileset Discussion => Topic started by: Pillbo on November 28, 2020, 03:11:40 pm
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I was wondering if you could tell/show us anything about ghosts yet. For example, will they maintain the creature's appearance?
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Only a few creatures can actually become ghosts in vanilla, right? It’s just the sentients, I believe, that will act dismayed when not buried properly. So it’d be easier to make custom sprites for all of them...
Still, you could probably do pretty simple/unified edits to the base sprites, like adding a monochrome filter, upping the brightness, and have their legs fade into nothingness/elevate the sprite a few pixels. Ghosts should always be ”naked” as well, given their inability to wear clothes, so you could give them something like ghostly drapes to make them more ghostly.
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Good ideas on their appearance, except for me they should appear to be dressed as they were before they died. Of course their weapons and armor don't do anything because they are ephemeral (or whatever it's called) and they aren't actually "wearing" them... it's all just part of their image.
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I've seen thoughts about being haunted by a dead pet but I've never actually seen a ghost animal.
It would be cool if they wore their clothes as a ghost but I doubt it's possible with they way things work right now. Neither the unit nor the corpse maintains an inventory after death, so I'd think there would have to be changes to some data structure for that to work. There was talk of profession based uniforms for a while, I'm not sure if that's still happening but ghosts could be a good use for those since the unit should still have a profession.
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TBH the ghost stuff is not decided yet. I'm working on civ graphics right now so I can ask around.
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When it comes to showing clothing, that would not only requiring the ghosts to have an inventory, as mentioned, but would also require that inventory to be populated with ghostly copies of the clothes that are lying in a heap with the corpse. Those ghostly clothes would then also have to cease to exist together with the ghost, would be immune to efforts to mark them for dropping or dumping, and be blocked from showing up in the fortress inventory. Thus, a whole new set of rules would have to be coded in for a visual effect that has no effect in the game as such. So, in my view, it's a nice idea, but too much work required to be worth it.
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There are a few different types of ghosts. Considering you still have to deal with all the standard ghosts, including the many many animal people, I’m not suggesting you make these different now, but it’d be nice if they had different handles instead of all just being ”GHOST”.
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When it comes to showing clothing, that would not only requiring the ghosts to have an inventory, as mentioned, but would also require that inventory to be populated with ghostly copies of the clothes that are lying in a heap with the corpse. Those ghostly clothes would then also have to cease to exist together with the ghost, would be immune to efforts to mark them for dropping or dumping, and be blocked from showing up in the fortress inventory. Thus, a whole new set of rules would have to be coded in for a visual effect that has no effect in the game as such. So, in my view, it's a nice idea, but too much work required to be worth it.
I agree, not worth it, but I do think it could be done simpler than this. Ghosts wouldn't need an actual inventory, they would just need some sort of list of object references to use to assemble the sprite. It could probably just save somewhere on the corpse or unit as a 'final inventory' that could be used for graphical reference and nothing else. It might be easier to save references to the individual sprite pieces used to create a unit's appearance when they die and save that instead, but maybe that would cause issues with the non-graphical version.
Either way, something more generic probably works better. I'd rather a ghostly swordsdwarf walk around with a sword in hand even if he died while the sword was in the barracks.
Really though, I'd be happy if a ghost has the same face as the dead dwarf.
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I agree, not worth it, but I do think it could be done simpler than this. Ghosts wouldn't need an actual inventory, they would just need some sort of list of object references to use to assemble the sprite. It could probably just save somewhere on the corpse or unit as a 'final inventory' that could be used for graphical reference and nothing else. It might be easier to save references to the individual sprite pieces used to create a unit's appearance when they die and save that instead, but maybe that would cause issues with the non-graphical version.
Either way, something more generic probably works better. I'd rather a ghostly swordsdwarf walk around with a sword in hand even if he died while the sword was in the barracks.
Really though, I'd be happy if a ghost has the same face as the dead dwarf.
Inventing a completely new structure just for ghosts is probably more work than adding ghostly inventory to one. Tying the internal data to the tileset in use at the time would introduce a coupling between the data and the tileset and would probably result in the save not displaying properly when a different tile set is used.
Generic ghostly inventory is probably even messier to deal with than just a ghostly copy of what remained at death, as it would require the introduction of default ghostly inventories for every kind of profession (or whatever other criterion you'd use).
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Really though, I'd be happy if a ghost has the same face as the dead dwarf.
Some notion of what a dead creature looked like must exist, as they can be raised and keep their appearances. Hopefully that is accessible by the ghost.
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it would require the introduction of default ghostly inventories for every kind of profession (or whatever other criterion you'd use).
I don't follow this part of what you're saying. Why would an inventory require something to do with profession?
Edit- Ok I think I get you. I'm not suggesting default profession inventories, just I'm just talking about the default profession sprites like most current tilesets have, and Meph talked about using way back (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173474.msg7944082#msg7944082). As in a naked, unarmed swordsdwarf would have the same sprite representation as a fully armored and armed swordsdwarf.
I'm not a fan of profession based sprites in general. But ghosts who have no inventory, but still have a profession, could be represented as they 'see themselves'.
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I have no idea the full range of rendering options available, but regardless of whether it turns out to be the as-alive (or possibly 'as-undead') entity compounded-with-equipment image or 'a special desaturated ghost-version of base sprite' the simplest filter you could apply (if available) is a straight graded opacity/transparency mask, top-to-bottom respectively.
(If it's ever a spirit that picks up items, visibly, post-mortem, that'd be atop that. Or otherwise 'masked from the masking', unlike any ghostly acrutriments taken along into its haunting form.)
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Yes, I reacted to the swordsdwarf being equipped with a sword, which, to me, implied it would be equipped with a sword (in the inventory). However, if the profession default would be rendered with default equipment, that would be fine.
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I have no idea the full range of rendering options available, but regardless of whether it turns out to be the as-alive (or possibly 'as-undead') entity compounded-with-equipment image or 'a special desaturated ghost-version of base sprite' the simplest filter you could apply (if available) is a straight graded opacity/transparency mask, top-to-bottom respectively.
(If it's ever a spirit that picks up items, visibly, post-mortem, that'd be atop that. Or otherwise 'masked from the masking', unlike any ghostly acrutriments taken along into its haunting form.)
If I recall correctly in the roguelike IVAN ( Iter Vehemens ad Necem ) they had a similar implementation. Might be worth checking out?
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I get troll ghosts in my fortress. So, any sentient being may become ghost, even mute and SLOW_LEARNER, and sentient creatures may be generated.
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I get troll ghosts in my fortress. So, any sentient being may become ghost, even mute and SLOW_LEARNER, and sentient creatures may be generated.
That's just based on your personal modding experiences for wider scope of intelligent and part intelligent creatures, but does raise the point that generating the result should probably not be determined on a existing pallete bias of typical humanoid creatures.
Popping in just the head on a generic ghost creature (if assets are needed for indescribable ethereal entities) maybe would also be fine unless its a gorlak with some sort of specific rule about the head.
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When it comes to showing clothing, that would not only requiring the ghosts to have an inventory, as mentioned, but would also require that inventory to be populated with ghostly copies of the clothes that are lying in a heap with the corpse. Those ghostly clothes would then also have to cease to exist together with the ghost, would be immune to efforts to mark them for dropping or dumping, and be blocked from showing up in the fortress inventory. Thus, a whole new set of rules would have to be coded in for a visual effect that has no effect in the game as such. So, in my view, it's a nice idea, but too much work required to be worth it.
I don't think that's needed, when a creature that can become a ghost dies on map have the game make a "stamp" of their current sprite cloths, gear and all.
The stamp would just be a sprite assembly instructions for that ghost if that creature does raise as a ghost use the stamp for its sprite, the ghosts sprite's look and appearance will be "set" at death and never change after death.
Then you're only telling the game to assemble ghost sprites differently but not changing anything else, is it worth it? IMHO yes, but I also want paper doll face portraits for adventure mode conversations, to me the only real question is can it be done not should it be done.
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I guess it might be possible to retain the sprite generated for the creature as a "ghost version" that's also given a "ghost treatment" (see through, etc.) for use should the creature rise (or be raised after Myth & Magic) as a ghost.
Still probably not worth it from a effort/benefit point of view, though.