Post by: Robot Parade Leader on March 27, 2016, 09:41:44 pm
I get really anxious, stressed and upset Not quite "angry," because that makes you think of somebody screaming at the top of their lungs or punching somebody. Not it.
That said, I just can't stand people asking me question when I clearly either a.) don't want to talk about it b.) don't have an answer and they know these things or should. It's like they feel entitled to speak/question regardless of the other person who doesn't want to be in the conversation and a favorite phrase of theirs seems to be "I'm just saying." Yup, I knew. Still wishing that wasn't the case. I ask people to stop and they just look at me like I'm nuts.
I realize the following:
A.) This is at least partially my problem. Probably more than partially.
B.) People are going to always keep asking questions (stupid or otherwise) even and especially if you don't want them to.
C.) I need to find some way to deal with this on my end, because there is no other option.
It's not an anger problem yet but I just .... it gets to me a lot.
Ideas?
Please and thank you.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 27, 2016, 09:51:28 pm
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on March 27, 2016, 10:04:30 pm
I basically have to deal with both regular and toxic people. Sadly.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 27, 2016, 10:15:53 pm
Keeping calm and polite when people are annoying you is a very good skill to learn, too.
Post by: MidnightJaguar on March 27, 2016, 11:15:37 pm
Keep calm (at least outwardly) and polite (soft smile) and insist that you won't talk about subject X. Dont ellaborate, and don't give reasons why. You just dont want to. Over and over.Listen well to this man, for he speaks the truth.
Keeping calm and polite when people are annoying you is a very good skill to learn, too.
Post by: Trapezohedron on March 28, 2016, 01:39:08 am
Post by: cango on March 29, 2016, 12:47:35 pm
Post by: Catmeat on March 30, 2016, 10:36:14 am
If this doesnt work after calmy saying it a few times, walk away.
Everybody above is correct, im just icing the iced cake
Post by: TheBiggerFish on March 30, 2016, 10:38:20 am
I have the same problem sometimes...
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on March 30, 2016, 11:17:24 am
Anyone else can just go completely nuts or scream or whatever.
I must be a saint
Post by: Vector on March 30, 2016, 05:59:21 pm
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on March 31, 2016, 11:41:18 am
People live in dream land and want their "what abouts?" I know how to do things with option A or B. They want C because it sounds better to them. I can't do that. I tell them this and they scream. They just won't believe the real world
My boss and my job won't let me give crazy customer what they want. I will get fired if I do. I am going to get yelled at for something that isn't my fault or in my control, because I'm there and I can't fight back. I'm going to have to take some abuse and that sucks. How do I deal with this?
Post by: TheBiggerFish on March 31, 2016, 11:45:06 am
Vent.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 31, 2016, 01:50:15 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on March 31, 2016, 02:07:08 pm
No. Don't vent. It might get back to you.This is why you do not include personally identifying information when venting.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on March 31, 2016, 02:13:24 pm
Post by: DJ on March 31, 2016, 03:07:58 pm
Post by: Beggars` Sect on April 01, 2016, 07:36:58 am
Your description of the current situation is vague, but still: if a person repeatedly asks you something there are few options. They`re either trying to help, they`re a bully or they`re oblivious to standard social norms (ie live up their own backside).
First one: mum/teacher/friend sees some problem -real or imagined - with you and is trying to help. They`re on your side so be patient and diplomatic. It won`t hurt to maybe consider if they have a point and change accordingly.
The bully: Depending on how avoidable this person is. If they`re strongly embedded in your life then you have to confront them about it and then they`ll either stop or escalate. It`s not fun, I know, but has to be done.
The pest: just ignore them or cut out from your social circle. They probably won`t even register that, since they live completely in their own world.
And if its work then the only solution is to weigh the pros and cons and if you see it in red, then find another one, sadly. That`s how the boss-underling structure works and the boss will never change.
Post by: Truean on April 02, 2016, 09:48:44 am
They told us lies: that everyone is equal.
Created equal perhaps, but are the godawful murderer and the good man both as good? We make our choices, and our choices make us.
All should behave and be civil; all won't. Try to change this, and it will exhaust you. Adapt. Learn to thrive mentally separate from the chaos.
The fool is beneath you and numerous. They feel, and don't think. Think and rise. Realize their fury is their fault, not yours. Reflect, reassure this is true.
Pity the fool, but neither become him nor let him fight you. You must learn to be separate and above, not one of. Fools are not helped by being foolish. (Don't be).
Equality is the dream, impossible in reality. We wish for equality to elevate equally; it won't. The only equality is death, the 0. Drag down not, nor be dragged.
Knowledge multiplies when not destroyed by foolish corruption. It can create and improve, if safeguarded from fools. Be neither corrupting, nor corrupted.
Feelings are not real; they exist solely and only in our minds. That is yours above and beyond all else. Learn to control your own mind, your feelings, your thoughts.
Learn to observe the world and perceive it without letting it alter you. This is the key. Understand. Observe. To attain the birds' eye is to turn a blizzard to a breeze.
If you really understand these words, you may find what you are looking for. Understanding is difficult and involves skills for all circumstances. Time. Patience. Wisdom.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on April 02, 2016, 08:21:02 pm
Whoa.
That was deep, Truean.
Post by: Vector on April 02, 2016, 08:24:39 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on April 02, 2016, 08:31:58 pm
Tiruin, Truean, very similar names, whoops.
*gives Vector some spare hugs to give Truean*
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on April 03, 2016, 04:19:29 am
Post by: Trapezohedron on April 03, 2016, 04:51:43 am
A fun way to do that is to play the people around their expectations, although if you're trying to avoid and hide certain information, you might as well agree to agree with what they say, or if they're asking a question, answer it to the best of your abilities without having your emotions hinder you for a sec.
If you can adapt, you can be inconspicuous.
With how things work in my life atm, I typically just state things in jest. Talking about topics commonly to be identified in your society as taboo, and yet inoffensive.
I'm not sure if you live in the west, but if you live in one of the more conservative places, you can just try jesting in lewd anyway. Eventually, they'll end up stereotyping you as that facade, instead of whoever you are right now. With that, you have achieved some semblance of control with what they will end up asking you, but really, the point is that you can guide the expectations of people as you see fit if you're willing to go the extra mile.
Otherwise, just tell them it's against your religion, beliefs, culture, etc. to be asked too hard, or you could tell them not to ask you too much about things you don't know with a stern look.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 03, 2016, 04:53:10 am
Basically Truean said to be "like water", formless and capable of transforming into the shape of any other vessel. (at least that's what I understand from it.)
Spoiler: Nice try, bro (click to show/hide)
Post by: Trapezohedron on April 03, 2016, 04:56:58 am
Basically Truean said to be "like water", formless and capable of transforming into the shape of any other vessel. (at least that's what I understand from it.)Spoiler: Nice try, bro (click to show/hide)
Well. Bruise Lee is my master idol and shit.
Post by: Truean on April 03, 2016, 07:59:21 am
Ascend by perception, differentiation, distance, discipline, and more.
Perceive, not merely see, the world, wonderful and woeful. See and mentally place parts into relation to others, spatially, relationally, psychologically. Observe the fool. See his meanness; expect and anticipate it. Warning wanes wounds. Realize he is mean to all, because he is flawed and unable to cope. He is helpless among the tempest he does not see and you do. Of course he is mean, of course he screams his feelings tell him he is battered by a typhoon he cannot see. Such a sad scene screaming so somehow someone should salve soaked stupidity. No one will. Learn to observe the world and perceive it without letting it alter you. This is the key. Understand. Observe.
Differentiate. Know what they are and how, be not as they.... Note the fool. Observe overdone overacting. The psychic ocean of human feelings batters us all with waves. All feel the injury; few see the cause. See. Rise above. Anticipate and adapt. Know in advance you will be struck by the fools' meanness. See the strike before it comes, as it comes, adapt and evade to soften the blow. Sidestep, block, roll with, or merely accept and dismiss it. You are not they; be not as they are. Do not what they do. Drag down not, nor be dragged.
Distance, know and grow mentally apart. The flame grows warm, not burning with but a little distance. See the psychic tempest of emotions humanity is caught in. The fool is entirely confined to the material world and banished from the mental world. Become a resident. Separate yourself mentally from the material while maintaining your material (body, possessions, etc), because the mental portion of you needs it. Not maintaining your material self will distract your mental self with pain. Bodily injury is separate from mental; abusers know they will be punished for the first but not the second. Most have never been shown how to care for their mind. Think and rise. Realize their fury is their fault, not yours. Reflect, reassure this is true.
Discipline, you are many separate machines, body, mind, etc. Do the machines cooperate and do you control them? Care for your body; control your mind, thoughts, images, and processes. Realize when you are thinking harmful thoughts, consciously stop yourself, think better thoughts. Basically, psychologists call this "cognitive behavior re-framing therapy."* Your distance often can't be physical, but mental distance can be had. Your thoughts are not real, except in your head, only you can think them. It is possible to think of being on a gold veined marble beach terrace overlooking the sea, furnished with mahogany, attended by massage therapists, and visited by loving friends. This is distance; keep one foot safely in this world to safely observe it, and the other elsewhere when stressed. Pain will distract you, as an understatement and this is unfortunate. To attain the bird's eye is to turn the blizzard to a breeze.
Call it science if you will. Learn to interact with the system. You may influence it to some degree, but realize it is a storm The psychic tempest may exhaust you if you fight within it. Rise above it. Anticipate the water. Know you can't stop it. Adapt, become waterproof.
*Seek a professional licensed therapist. They can help far more than I ever could.
Once again Vector is unsure of her awesomeness. Be assured.
This is a very oversimplified version. The pieces and parts relate and interrelate to one another. For example, "To attain the bird's eye is to turn a blizzard to a breeze," really goes to all of these parts and so much more. It goes to perception "eye," differentiate, "[implied difference in perception and viewpoint]," distance "bird," and discipline "attain" as well as more.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on April 03, 2016, 08:13:51 am
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on April 03, 2016, 01:04:42 pm
Like somebody has a customer and she's pissed, because she said the company website said she could use a certain discount or coupon or whatever. I've been told those things are garbage and we're just not accepting them by my boss. My boss can fire me if I don't do what he says, and this customer is going to scream in my face like she's about to slap me repeatedly. I'm not even sure the company website said any of that or if she's lying or what. I do know that if I take that coupon, then I'm going to get written up or maybe fired or just bad things.
Say your family is being really stupid about something that isn't your fault. My dad bitches and moans about Obama all the time. He will hijack the conversation and pretty much repeat what Fox News is playing. I don't care, because he does this stuff allllll the damn time and I've heard it before. I can actually tell what he's going to say next because he's said it ten times already. We can't talk because he is pissed and ranting. Meanwhile I'm somehow to blame for everything. God forbid something bad happens that isn't my fault, because I'm going to get yelled at no matter what. I'm just the scapegoat. Never good enough no matter what I do. Some basic family abusive crap.
?
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 03, 2016, 01:19:23 pm
Ok. Can I ask you how to apply that in the real world a bit?
Like somebody has a customer and she's pissed, because she said the company website said she could use a certain discount or coupon or whatever. I've been told those things are garbage and we're just not accepting them by my boss. My boss can fire me if I don't do what he says, and this customer is going to scream in my face like she's about to slap me repeatedly. I'm not even sure the company website said any of that or if she's lying or what. I do know that if I take that coupon, then I'm going to get written up or maybe fired or just bad things.
?
Oh this one is really simple. Fake smile, state company policy, and if they keep insisting offer to get them in contact with your immediate superior.
Really, during university I did a brief stint as a ticket puncher and few things made me happier than to kick shit upstairs.
Post by: Truean on April 03, 2016, 02:10:42 pm
Ideally, find better people and places. Unattainable. Really:
Know where you are: the psychological tempest of human emotions. Welcome to where everyone has unknowingly been, always. In this tempest, waves will crash against you. Customer, she'll stupidly scream, sadly steaming, striking salespersons' souls. She can't cope; she's trying and failing to. In the material world, do what you must: fake smile, state company policy, get manager, etc. Mentally, be there enough to deal with it, but otherwise elsewhere. Masters learn to manipulate their own thoughts and senses. Advanced technique users enjoy imagining the feeling of receiving a massage while someone is yelling at them, and imagine it. Imagine another place and time, to the extent you can. Keep one foot safely in this world to safely observe it, and the other elsewhere when stressed. NOTE: This is the ADVANCED technique requiring expertly diving your attention, don't try this until and unless you've mastered the lower methods, including:
Perceive. Realize who and what this woman is: someone who can't cope, trying and failing to do so. She's a fool, of course she is mean, of course she screams her feelings tell her she is battered by a typhoon she cannot see.. Realize in advance people will be terrible. Prepare for it; it will happen. Get through it and slowly work your way up the advanced techniques of dealing with it.
Differentiate. Customer can't cope. The psychic ocean of human feelings batters us all with waves. All feel the injury; few see the cause. See. Rise above. You aren't her; she's blind to what, where, and why she's upset. If she could see, then she'd realize she's not solving her problem by yelling at you, but rather she's making them worse. She may never see and probably never will. You may not be dealing with a rational person and sadly, she's blindly, stupidly lashing out rather than rationally making her situation better. Don't be like her. Do not what they do. Drag down not, nor be dragged.
Distance. Think and rise. Realize their fury is their fault, not yours. Reflect, reassure this is true. Keep present in the real world enough to deal with the situation. Realize you will lose if you yell back, both immediately at work and as a person. Fight fools to become one. Don't act like the blind psychic tempest tossed fool she is. Why would you chose, knowing what you know, to act as the blind fool, when you are not blind? Don't. Doing so is to drown.
Discipline. Both during and after customer's confrontation, control your thoughts. Advanced techniques are dual thinking a fantasy location and keeping present in the real world. Even without that, know it isn't your fault. Control your thoughts. Realize she's just screaming and you did nothing wrong, despite her stupid protests otherwise. Catch yourself thinking negative thoughts (especially about yourself) and replace that with better thoughts. Do the same with behaviors and emotions. Know this incident will eventually end. The screaming will end, dead, and you will remain, alive. You will win, through endurance and discipline.
This is, of course a simplification, because really, it's an internet forum....
The same can be said for those who rant about things, as in your second example. Your family, like the rest of humanity, is much like the customer, unable to cope. They try and fail to use any tools around them (including screaming, yelling and complaining, denial, etc) to cope. It doesn't work. Much as the customer, they don't get it. The flawed tools are different but the fact that they're using flawed tools is the same. Customer screams at salesperson (ineffective, foolish); Family rants, scapegoats and screams (ineffective, foolish). Same idea throughout.
Interestingly this also goes somewhat for past instances you find yourself obsessing over, or possible future instances you might worry over. Focus the material portion of your attention on useful tasks with a probability to increase your success. Same deal with the thoughts. Thinking you are worthless is not helpful.
This is the sea of humanity, tempest tossed by emotions. You know it will be cold, have the insulated wetsuit. It will help with the waves.
P.S. Don't explain any of this to customer or anyone. They will look at you like you're crazy. Remember, you can't see the tempest; neither can they; we're all caught in it. Navigate it well. Learn to think and rise above.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on April 03, 2016, 02:43:50 pm
Post by: Truean on April 03, 2016, 03:07:29 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on April 03, 2016, 04:20:58 pm
Post by: Truean on April 03, 2016, 06:30:03 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on April 03, 2016, 06:39:08 pm
But seriously, that could have come from any number of faith figures and nobody would have batted an eye. That's seriously deep.
Post by: Trapezohedron on April 03, 2016, 08:00:46 pm
For your family abusive issues, and if you can't leave them, it may do you good to play to their strengths and avoiding conflict as much as possible, even if they're trying to harangue you into it.
You see, when you stoke a fire, it burns harder.
And while doing that, follow all of Truean's advice. It is quite profound.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on April 07, 2016, 09:40:10 am
"Why did you do X?"
and I feel like saying "just to piss you off." I mean really, could somebody please assume I'm not a complete moron who does things on purpose to piss people off?
My God, really? I had a reason and it may have even been incorrect, but I'm not crazy for having done what I did under the circumstances. If you have a better way, then OK, but don't think I'm a complete idiot. I just want to just about cry at them and say "please assume I'm not completely stupid."
The other day I told my boss 3 times that the fork lift wasn't working; boss then gets pissed after telling me to use the fork lift to follow him to get some things. I have to walk over to where he is and he is just looking at me like I'm completely stupid and demands to know why I didn't do what he asked. He then denies I ever told him anything about the fork lift being down, etc. Whatever, he's going to argue with me about it and I'm going to lose, because he's more powerful. I just want to do my job. He's upset that I walked over to him and went the extra mile so we could fix the problem.
This keeps happening. Or stuff like it.
Post by: Truean on April 07, 2016, 11:26:21 am
Most people ( >90%, your boss) have problems and suck at dealing with them. Their tools are flawed, include their exhaustion, and reflect their exhaustion. The invisible psychological waves smacking them in the face feel real to them and that will alter their thoughts, emotions and behaviors. This is bad news for everyone, including them. Remember that invisible part? They don't get it and can't really be explained to....
People acting like they can't believe something, probably can't. THEY can't. Again, flawed tools. All they've ever known is bad tools; they can't conceive of good tools. Disappointment will follow an expectation they they can. They won't. Is your boss wrong? Probably. Should you call him on it? NOPE. Does it matter if he's wrong? Not really, because he's in charge. Does that suck? Yes. Is it true? Also, yes.
Follow your own (somewhat implied) advice:
Losing the fight is certain; don't fight. You want to fix the forklift problem. Good, but also fix the "dealing with people problems." Complain or fix forklift. Complain or fix communication with person situation. You will never fix the other person. The waves in the ocean tempest will ever be. Complain {popular, but ineffective}, or deal with it. Hard to do? Yup. Is there any better option? Not really, nope.
Think about the goal (start with the end in mind):
What do you want out of this? A quiet enjoyable workplace. Again, not going to happen. You're in the tempest in the ocean of human emotions. It's everywhere and you can't really get out of it.
Expect smooth sailing; find none; be disappointed.
Expect storm flailing; find it; be prepared through it.
Know your own flawed tools. Improve them as best you can. Focus on fixing it and dealing with him as best you can, as you must. Physically, in the material world, do that. Mentally, know whatever they say, your soul's unbreakable.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on April 07, 2016, 08:22:39 pm
Post by: Truean on April 07, 2016, 08:55:54 pm
There's meditation, yoga, and tons of anger management techniques including progressive muscle relaxation techniques. Prevention and maintenance help quite a bit. IF you get to the point where you're ready to scream at somebody, then you need to take a minute and focus on breathing and relaxing a bit.
Though you may really want to seek the assistance of a therapist if you're getting to that point. It's not about blame or if it's the people and things around you or not. It's not about blame, because that just isn't effective or helpful. Effective, helpful stuff is what the goal is.
Don't do anything rash, because it won't lead to anything good. Center yourself and think for a bit, breathing and considering what's around you. I realize you may be very upset about something and you may have good reason to be. It's about how you can deal with it the best way possible.
I hope things work out well for you. The good news is that 12 bay is here and it seems to be a pretty good community.
Post by: wierd on April 07, 2016, 09:19:46 pm
Not really helpful to people already in the trenches, but useful for avoiding landing in bad places after getting a change of scenery.
Basically, these people really do mean well-- they see a big, generic, picture. They say things like "Every child should be vaccinated, in the interests of public health." They neglect the actual reality of the world though. There ARE people that you should not force additional vaccination on. (While a small percentage, there are people with medical histories of adverse and serious reactions to vaccination. Most vaccination regimens have multiple courses. After the first one, if the individual has an adverse reaction, their body becomes hypersensitized. Much like you dont give PB&J to a kid with peanut allergies, you dont demand the rest of the regimen of the person with the sensitivity. It literally risks death and debilitating side effects from additional reactions.) Because they fear idiots slipping through loopholes, they write off small percentages that dont fit neatly. They care about big picture issues, and really, they are right at that level.
That does not change the fact that they make things a living hell for the people they write off.
This demographic runs the gammut between well intentioned but unfeelingly callous (as above), to the holier than thou, out to save your soul officious and unbearable type.
Typically, corporate politics creates the former of these, and middle management A-holes grow like weeds in the latter. In all cases, the unwillingness to accept harsh realities and allow leeway for those realities (for fear of enabling shirkers of the system to have loopholes to slip through) create impossible situations for everyone in the enterprise, with the kinds of compounding stresses Truean mentioned prior.
Once you get a feel for this trend, you can pin down if a specific work culture favors realworld pragmatism, or "big picture idealism".
The former produces a more dysfunctional but more pleasant/supportive work environment that accepts that circumstances beyond control exist-- and the latter produces a more totally efficient, but draconian and unyeilding/high stress environment.
The decision which and in what proportions you are able to tolerate only comes with experience.
For me, the corporate buzzwords of "Do you want to work in a fast paced and competative work environment?" is code for "fuck no, Run away!" This is because the "competition" is introduced by the global view managment at the top as being a good intrinsic to make the whole company more competative in the corporate financial world. (employees fight over scraps for small perks, and in theory, the whole organization gets more done with less.) I prefer the more pragmatic managerial style, which accepts that individual humans have needs, and that well motivated, loyal employees give more to the company freely, and with less drama.
The recent push has been away from the pragmatic to the idealist ideologies, and workplace stresses have been rising as a consequence. This is typically because the latter is logistically easier for inept managers and financial analysts to track with metrics and manage on autopilot. This is not a new problem. The dark age analogy is the central basis for Machiavelli's "The Prince." (http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1232)
I prefer good kings, not tyrranical ones, no matter how less stable they are.
Your mileage may vary.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on April 08, 2016, 04:33:21 pm
Help with some understanding on that one please?
What Wierd said is good, but it's hard to spot that stuff. Cause the bad bosses want to look like good ones. I don't know if I can change jobs soon or anything but any advice past what you already said? Are there any other telltale signs beyond, "Do you want to work in a fast paced and competative work environment?"
I'm just trying to get this, and it seems I'm maybe not doing so hot at it.
Post by: wierd on April 08, 2016, 05:42:24 pm
Post by: Truean on April 09, 2016, 07:17:08 pm
Meditation:
Many ways to meditate. Visualization helps.
The theory is fairly simple. Your body and mind operate off stimulus and response: something happens and there's a reaction to what happened.
S ---> R
Resting Visualization:
Does the stimulus have to be physical? Does it have to be "real" to have a response?
Consider the following. The Marines send a notice a woman's husband has died, KIA. She is devastated, understandably, of course. Turns out, they were mistaken. He's alive. The information was false, but her reaction was real and makes perfect sense. Point being, even false information stimuli can have real responses.
Consider an environment, yours, mine, anyone's. Horrible environment; horrible stimuli with horrible responses. Remember false stimuli and real responses (even if just placebo)? Imagine laying in bed trying to fall asleep there. Which is better to focus on what you can't control and worry, or imagine yourself in a nice place? Again, laying awake in bed trying to get to sleep.... If you worry, you lose sleep, are sleep deprived tomorrow, and anxious. If (laying in bed) you imagine yourself someplace nicer (meditate) you have a greater chance to sleep, be less anxious, and not sleepy tomorrow. Is it guaranteed? No. Does it cost anything? No. It's a simple idea (in theory), wanna think about horrible things or not, and which will help you fall asleep faster?
I know ... I know. Easier said than done. MUCH easier said than done sometimes. This is controlling your thoughts, and that's hard. Worth it if you ask me.
This is my understanding of meditation visualization. It creates a (false) mental stimuli, that may help feeling better emotionally ("happy place," etc). NOW, of course, it's important not to get lost in fantasy and realize it's not real (not losing touch with the real world). Is it perfect? No. It does provide some other stimuli to counter all the negative stuff a little bit. It has helped me sleep, if nothing else, through some terrible, terrible stuff. Of course, this assumes you have a safe place to sleep, etc, and I really hope everyone does.
Simply, what do you do when you are laying in bed trying to get to sleep? Worry or Imagine better.
Example:
You've probably done RPGs, and/or read books with settings. Same idea, creating an imaginary place. Imagine another place and time, to the extent you can. It is possible to think of being on a gold veined marble beach terrace overlooking the sea, furnished with mahogany, attended by massage therapists, and visited by loving friends. That's just an example. I've used it in combination with progressive muscle relaxation to get to sleep.
Meditation as Organization:
Consider mentally going over a "to do" list. This can help keep things organized and free up mental resources worrying about tasks.
Upon awakening, consider reciting some affirmations to reinforce some self esteem ( "The Meditations" by Marcus Aurelius (http://classics.mit.edu/Antoninus/meditations.html) helps ( I skip book one and go for book two (http://classics.mit.edu/Antoninus/meditations.2.two.html)) Also realize this was written by an ancient Roman Emperor, so it is from another place and time (it's going to be somewhat odd). You can of course do your own, something as simple as "I am a good person who does the best they can." It varies by person / situation, and this is another thing a therapist may help with.
These are, in my experience, some of the easier ways to do it in fairly safe environments (a bed, etc). If you are in a safe place with a few seconds to spare, it can be helpful to take 10 seconds to visualize a better place, while breathing out and in. Again, if you are in a safe place.... Annoyed at waiting in the grocery store checkout line, because the person in front of you is arguing with the cashier over coupons the cashier can't take because their invalid? I was last week and I quietly mentally went elsewhere while standing there, because there was no way around it. The fact of the matter was that I was going to be there for a couple minutes, it wasn't for work (no expectation of my producing results), it wasn't a dangerous place, and there was no better option. I know I wasn't really at a beach, but all other things equal, what better option did I have. Given I'm stuck there, I can either fume about this abusive customer, or do something else. Fuming won't help me and exhausts what few mental resources I have to spare. NOTE: always make sure you're in a safe place (Don't zone out while driving, or operating machinery, or any place that is not 100% safe). Only divert your attention when it is SAFE to do so.
On a personal note, I made a point to comfort the cashier somewhat after the difficult customer had left, saying I thought she handled that rather well and wished she didn't have to deal with that (within earshot of her manager).
I do hope that helps somewhat.
Disclosure: I have some real anxiety issues. I don't have all the answers. This helps me a little though. Seek a therapist if you have issues; they can help.
Post by: Vector on April 09, 2016, 07:22:19 pm
Post by: Truean on April 09, 2016, 07:31:30 pm
Also that's just meditation. The opposite of that "rooting" and awareness can help quite a bit to center yourself and keep things in perspective / organized.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on April 12, 2016, 08:53:42 am
I've asked them not to and they then get all huffy, or accuse me of being agitated for asking, and explain why they are saying what they are saying. I don't care. I'm asking, begging this person to stop it and they just won't. Meanwhile they want to talk and not me. Because if I'm talking, that means they won't be able to without talking over top of me, which they will absolutely do, while saying or implying that I should stop being rude and shut up.
Post by: Tiruin on April 12, 2016, 10:45:54 am
What do you do with people who are "just saying?" As in, "I'm just saying." That's usually what they say after they've said something either incredibly stupid, offensive, wrong or who knows. Like, they can just say whatever they want AND expect everyone else to love it no matter how bad it is.Usually. But that's not all on why these things are being said that way ^ ^
I have a habit of adding 'just' in many things I say--and I've noticed that it may be taken the wrong way with certain people, but to add on that outlook there, sometimes when people say 'just saying', it may mean that they're clearing out any other assumptions and mentioning only what they're pretty much talking about in the sentence before/after they say that.
Either that, or you've seen that line being said with assumed sarcasm from them ._. (which is usually a local/cultural thing with language...so it'll not give a good impression if it becomes an expected meaning on anyone hearing that).
If it becomes a sentence ender in itself (ie I'm just saying. [Then I don't follow it up maybe with more details to diffuse any misunderstandings?]), then perhaps the other person is working on assumptions of their own after they've stated an opinion. Usually it's a good note to point out what the meaning of what they've said to them so they're more aware on what they're just saying. :O But this is contextual advice.
Post by: Truean on April 12, 2016, 08:01:12 pm
Two words: "Imperfect tools."
"I'm just saying" is a very imperfect tool. It's used to deflect negativity from things either better left unsaid or very very unfortunately needing to be said.
Ideally the phrase would never be used, but the world isn't ideal. Ideally, people would say different things based upon the circumstances such as:
A.) If unpleasant but needed news: "I know this may be difficult but ...." or "I wish it didn't have to be this way but ...." etc.
B.) If something personal/embarrassing: [Quietly] I realize X is a sensitive topic but ...."
C.) If something better left unsaid: [don't say it], or "I don't want to bring up X, but might have to deal with X." [something more sensitive].
Sadly, the world being incredibly imperfect, we get these and other motives, see also Turuin's post, above. Moreover, we get people who may have bad intent as well. This is incredibly unfortunate and how the world basically is.
That said, Halon was right, "Never assume bad intentions when assuming stupidity is enough." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor)
Sadly, they are convinced what they are doing is right, or "good enough" and will be offended by offers to improve their methods of communication, despite there being problems or room for improvement. Don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about grammar Nazi stuff, or hyper-technicality. Rather I'm talking about effective communication with fewer words and more meaning.
When with people, start assuming incurable stupidity. Idiot-proof things, without appearing to do so. <-- Critical.
In your examples, others seem clueless to other people in the conversation, and especially their enjoyment of it, or lack thereof. In my experience, these individuals tend to think more about WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO SAY, rather than WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. That is critical, and another flawed tool, ideally balance both. They can't. Seeing as you must live around them, you are better served by adapting around it. In simple sum, your boss/client/whoever, may well be a total moron suffering from the "I D 10 T Error" (Idiot), but no amount of anything is going to fix that. Navigate around or if you must, through.
Another aspect of this, hinted at by Turuin, is the "just" problem. This can be a simple form of habitual speech said without conscious intent, or it can be something with more to it, such as sarcasm, or "minimization." It is highly context dependent.
Minimization, is often a manipulation technique in language, "it's just this" or basically less than. This states or implies that different (favorable to the speaker) treatment or thought should be given to the thing being minimized ("Just _____"). In this case, I may be wrong, but I think the person telling you "I'm just saying" is attempting to lower your resistance to their speaking ("I'm just saying") because they want to talk, perhaps to the exclusion of you. There is no way around this, that is acceptable. This is the type of customer you just plaster a grin on for until they eventually leave, or the friend you just don't hang out with anymore.
It is very dangerous to be right when the established authority is wrong.
That said, all the things I have said before apply. What you can control; all you can control is your reaction to things (mental, emotional, physical, etc). Difficult? Yes. Needed, often yes. Remember the following, it is usually their problem, you are merely stuck in it for a short amount of time. Do what you can, because you can't do what you can't do (by definition).
This we too shall pass. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BCfFz-vOqw&nohtml5=False)
I truly do hope that gives you some help, in combination with the other things I have said and perhaps will say here. That said, I do not begin to know and can't know all you go through or all circumstances. What I can do, all I can do, is offer some guidance. My tools are imperfect to. Making with perfect tools is easy. We have none. We must make with imperfect tools. That, that is the key.
Post by: Trapezohedron on April 12, 2016, 09:04:51 pm
For me, Meditation is simply focus. Feelings are nebulous; you can toss that out. Instead, if you're toiling on a project, for one example, focus only on the goal, and getting there. Focus on the possible errors that may occur. Keep focusing, and keep thinking. Never think about the other people who piss you off. Look forward to the end of the day, the achievement of a goal, or both.
Given enough focus, you wouldn't even bother reacting too hard to other stupid people's reactions, expectations and opinions.
Just saying, as they already said, indicates an opinion people feel strongly about, and feel entitled to say, but automatically deflecting all manner of criticism, up to and including them stating an opinion you never asked about. In which case, you are not entitled to actually listen to it, as with a lot of things, and you may choose to ignore it. If you see yourself dwelling too much in it, start meditating - start focusing again.
Zen, as one may say, means eschewing everything except one - and that should be a Zen person's goals. You have your part to do. Focus. Do not let people distract you. Do not let their entitled opinions bother you; they're good-hearted most of the time, but they do not realize the circumstances that led you into whatever vexes them, and therefore they are stupid. Do not let this bother you. Your goal is the only thing that matters. Do not blame them either; you do not have time for hate and dwelling on things wastes your time.
Just focus. They do not understand you. But you do. And you are in control of yourself, and not them. The same applies with them.
Post by: eerr on April 12, 2016, 09:34:15 pm
Anyway, it's my experience that people are responding to the way you act. So if you have a frown people are reading that.
People will regularly read these social cues to tell them what to do so learn not to fuck that up.
Or at least make it so you aren't opposite of how you feel.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 13, 2016, 04:48:54 am
Post by: Tiruin on April 13, 2016, 07:04:14 am
Wow what Truean shut up you aren't going to solve this problem with paragraphs upon paragraphs. What The Fuck.You aren't helping either with that kind of attitude, dude. Truean isn't 'solving this problem'--she's helping by giving advice. She's not advocating her words as "The Solution"TM, and '> 5 paragaphs' isn't something to gawk and swear at. Only the person themself is able to solve their own problems--exposure and detail in understanding their problems or how to understand it helps; the more details that specify reasoning and understanding, the better it goes.
Anyway, it's my experience that people are responding to the way you act. So if you have a frown people are reading that.
People will regularly read these social cues to tell them what to do so learn not to fuck that up.
Or at least make it so you aren't opposite of how you feel.
Practice politeness, eerr, and commit the same quality you're giving in your own words, to your own actions here: People don't take being called WTF very well. Especially in brevity. If one is to react bluntly, it's better to say why they think so along with it.
Blinking back on topic, @Robot: Understanding the social culture of your locality also helps--which generally means understanding how slang works as in communication, statements are modified towards what the more 'impactful' idea is. Media representations and what people are generally exposed to also act as influences towards what they say, so in those kinds of situations, interpreting what they mean literally isn't going to parallel what they really mean; in these cases, it's usually akin to idiomatic expressions wherein those singular words or phrases mean something else.
Post by: Truean on April 13, 2016, 08:30:37 am
Sad. I give a path. Some like it; some won't. Unlike RPL's situation, you need not listen. Read, or don't. No one forces you here. Humanity's problems can't be solved in paragraphs, pages, or tomes. Certainly not mere sentences. This is but just a tool in a vast set of tools. Use, or don't.
Your words won't irritate me. All, myself too, have imperfect tools. Demanding "shut up" is normally an imperfect tool. TL;DR won't work here. My words are shorter and sharper to the point than most. Read, ascend, or don't.
You seem upset, troubled. I wish you weren't, & woe that you are. Rage and sorrow beget more rage and sorrow, and the only winners are ever multiplying rage and sorrow. Perhaps you seek to help by assuming RPL's social ques may be off. There's a tendency to lower amount of information, but this is only optimal if it focuses on increasing meaning, as I do. These are not rants. Learn from or fight me as you will or won't. Whichever makes no difference; I care not.
It is simple yet profound; I am insulted but safe within my own mind. It has no effect. I could spend my life rebutting the world outside my front door that mistakes "Shut up" for enlightenment, because it shouts and shoves down everyone. No. Thank you. I'm not going to make anyone here my enemy, because there's no point and nothing to gain. I presuppose others have their own problems influencing bad behavior, and that is actually quite sad and regrettable (unfair really, perhaps to them). Look at the comment threads on most news articles. Full. Of. Hatred. I'm not going there, even if I have to go inside my mind to avoid it. Perfect? No. Better option? Yeah.
And this, RPL, is practicing what I preach.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on April 13, 2016, 10:26:04 am
Either you know something I really don't or something is off here. Prolly that first one knowing my luck. How do you just fucking float above all that shit that life just throws right at you all the time like you're talking about? Like, somebody tells me something stupid or whatever and sometimes I just wanna punch 'em but I just fucking can't. Yeah, sure, part of it's that I don't wanna be in jail or whatever, but I just want to scream or something. I can't do that shit either.
I might not be smart enough to get what you're talking about either. I'm tryin' to think about this whole ocean stuff you're saying, so does that mean that people just have a ton of shit making them feel like crap all day? They can't handle it and stuff, is that what you're saying? Cause I think that's it, but I've been wrong a lot before.
So I'm supposed to try and not let it bother me cause these people pissing me off have their own problems and it's really no use? Part of that's the whole happy place thing? Is there more to it, because that sounds really hard?
Can you make this philosophy shit clearer for me, because I'm pretty sure I'm not getting a good chunk of it.
Post by: Tiruin on April 13, 2016, 11:14:14 am
Damn, that's the most restraint I've seen on the internet since freaking ever.Giving a nod to Truean here, sometimes, restraint is in already understanding the one throwing s--- at you down to why and what led them to do that. Knowing the consequences if one did something this way or the other. Understanding how to assess it and react to it, especially in noticing the background into what's being said. All this happens in understanding either from direct experience or otherwise. All this happens at the speed of thought, less than a second by reflexive timing, and more than several if it's spoken in mind. :P
Either you know something I really don't or something is off here. Prolly that first one knowing my luck.
I might not be smart enough to get what you're talking about either. I'm tryin' to think about this whole ocean stuff you're saying, so does that mean that people just have a ton of shit making them feel like crap all day? They can't handle it and stuff, is that what you're saying? Cause I think that's it, but I've been wrong a lot before.Never say you're not smart enough. You possess all the intelligence capable of understanding these things. The reality is in exposure and experience--"we were not aware so it's not in current knowledge". Truean uses metaphors to detail concrete concepts in order to expound and express them in a more malleable way to the reader, but also adds detail to them to give a gist or theme to understand. While I can't speak for her the 'ocean' is usually connected to the idea of describing any idea that is difficult to specifically measure, though just as much easy to quantify as a general whole: population, society, culture, reality. It's a general term used to give an idea, just like how the ocean gives an idea of a big mass of water. :D
Post by: jhxmt on April 13, 2016, 12:37:21 pm
Ultimately, nobody in the world wakes up in the morning and thinks, "You know what? Today I'm going to be an utter bastard." Nobody sees themselves as being malicious, or destructive, or evil. Way down deep, right down at the base level, everybody tries to do the right thing. (Caveat: my philosophy. Your mileage may vary.)
The issue is that people's interpretations of what "the right thing" is depends on a lot of factors. For example, I'm very much a 'support' type of person - that's pretty core to my personality, due to combination of nature/nurture, so that's how I tend to approach most things. If I see someone working on something or having trouble with something, my instinctive, go-to action is to try to get them to talk about it, ask questions, find out why they're doing things a certain way, investigate what makes them see that as the right way, etc etc. That's because, in my head, "the right thing" to do is to try to work out what people are trying to do, why they're trying to do it a certain way, and whether there's a more effective way that I could point out to them.
This approach utterly infuriates some people - and understandably so. For some people, I appear to simply be asking questions about things that aren't relevant to the task at hand - I'm not addressing the problem, I'm not taking the quickest and most efficient path to the solution, I'm wasting time, etc. For some people, "the right thing" to do when they see someone struggling with a task might simply be to take over and do the task themselves. My way is, to them, wrong - just as, to me, their way is wrong.
The important thing is that, objectively, neither of the above approaches is definitively right or wrong. There's no call for me to get angry with the other type of person, to rant and rave about their approach, to tell them they're out of order, to assume that they're trying to undermine me or that they're being deliberately difficult. They are, like me, trying to do the right thing. Our interpretations just differ.
Now, not everybody thinks that way. Some people do jump to conclusions about what's going on in other people's heads, and make (unwarranted) assumptions. But, unfortunately, you cannot control what goes on in other people's heads, or the actions that they choose to take as a result. The only things - the only things - that you can control are those things that occur in your own head, and the actions that you choose to take as a result.
And therefore, when e.g. a customer gets mad and starts shouting at you, there's no need to get angry, or upset, in response. Their thoughts, feelings and actions don't dictate your own. If getting angry or upset isn't useful, then it doesn't benefit you. And, more importantly, why would you get angry with them? The fact that they're getting angry shows that they're suffering - because that's all it is, ultimately. They don't know how to deal with the situation. They can't handle it. They're not trying to be bastards, they're not trying to ruin your life...they just don't know what "the right thing" is in that situation.
That's not to say you have to just stand there and take it. If you're able to empathise with their situation, you can try to explain the problem to them in a way that they can understand, hoping that it'll allow them to work out "the right thing". If that doesn't work, you can disengage from the situation - walk away, or ask them not to speak to you that way, or direct them to your manager, or some other method.
But ultimately, their actions aren't your fault, and aren't able to directly influence your brain. Everything you perceive has to go through your own mental filters before it reaches you - that's why misperceptions are so commonplace, that's why cognitive biases exist, that's why depression is a thing, that's why there are a whole host of mental disorders out there that result from your filters not working to their best. If you're looking at the world through a dirty lens, it's all going to look like crap.
Like, somebody tells me something stupid or whatever and sometimes I just wanna punch 'em but I just fucking can't. Yeah, sure, part of it's that I don't wanna be in jail or whatever, but I just want to scream or something. I can't do that shit either.
The real question here is, why do you want to punch them? What is it you believe that would achieve? This isn't a trick question or a trap or an attempt to undermine you, I genuinely would like to know why that's the course of action that appeals to you. See my earlier point about liking to ask people questions. ;)
Edit: okay, that was a long post than I anticipated. I ramble sometimes. My apologies. Distill what you can from it.
Post by: gimlet on April 13, 2016, 01:11:08 pm
One book/series that helped me a lot was "The Gentle Art of Verbal Self Defense" - it may be a bit hard to find now, but I haven't seen anything else quite like it. There's some bits on her website http://www.adrr.com/aa/ especially the excerpts/overview/FAQ - and ESPECIALLY the ""Only a Wimp Would Let That One Go By!"" bit in the Excerpts as a quick overview of why not to take the bait.
And agree w/jhxmt too, sometimes there's a kernel of truth in the communication, buried in the aggro/frustration. Something tiny you did or appeared to do might have been the "straw that broke the camel's back" for somebody who's been stressed all day. Or you haven't been doing things "their way" and maybe you didn't even know it.
Post by: Trapezohedron on April 14, 2016, 11:23:12 pm
Damn, that's the most restraint I've seen on the internet since freaking ever.
Either you know something I really don't or something is off here. Prolly that first one knowing my luck. How do you just fucking float above all that shit that life just throws right at you all the time like you're talking about? Like, somebody tells me something stupid or whatever and sometimes I just wanna punch 'em but I just fucking can't. Yeah, sure, part of it's that I don't wanna be in jail or whatever, but I just want to scream or something. I can't do that shit either.
I might not be smart enough to get what you're talking about either. I'm tryin' to think about this whole ocean stuff you're saying, so does that mean that people just have a ton of shit making them feel like crap all day? They can't handle it and stuff, is that what you're saying? Cause I think that's it, but I've been wrong a lot before.
So I'm supposed to try and not let it bother me cause these people pissing me off have their own problems and it's really no use? Part of that's the whole happy place thing? Is there more to it, because that sounds really hard?
Can you make this philosophy shit clearer for me, because I'm pretty sure I'm not getting a good chunk of it.
To float above is to catch the fact that you are getting angry and irritated, and not acting on those impulses. But you're angry, why should you? The consequences could be more dire if you argued harder than if you didn't. You weigh your options whether it's worth it to be angry or not. Then you shoot one of the options down, preferably the one getting angry, and reply politely and if need be, detached, to the person inquiring. You can then say, I don't know, or I can't say. Or state personal reasons. Or that you're busy. Typically, people will respect your rights there and then.
It's much harder with families under certain cultures, because some of them demand full transparency. In which case, you can try to make an excuse. No, try to avoid lying. Lying can get pathological and severe. Instead, recount the entire situation, and summarize all the major points. If they find the explanation unsatisfactory, you can opt to go out and away from the source of the problem, if it's a problem you don't want explained.
If someone wants you to agree, you can perhaps give a non-committal yes.
In the context of the internet, avoiding arguments is as simple as catching yourself typing some rebuttal, remarking whether this is worth your while, and deciding from there that it (probably) isn't.
Time is money, you shouldn't try wasting it too much on arguments you don't believe in. AND FINALLY, if someone is baiting you, do not take the bait. It's not worth it.
Part of my technique is realizing why people can be shit is because, there's also shit they're dealing with. They're the same as you: people. So, its ultimately your decision if you want to argue or if it isn't worthwhile.
I believe David Foster Wallace's commencement speech (abridged) changed my way of thinking partly. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lu2e-q8ntM)
Post by: EnigmaticHat on April 15, 2016, 04:19:35 am
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on April 19, 2016, 12:13:23 pm
I tell somebody something that's pretty much a fact. Let's keep it simple and say, "The door is locked."
They then either act like it isn't or ask me "The door's locked?" like they don't believe me or something.
That kind of makes me feel like I'm just not believe being believed or something, or as if I didn't know how to turn a little knob to make it lock or whatever.
Other times are when I'm asked "why did you do that?!" The implication is that I couldn't have possibly had any reason to do it and I'm nuts for having done it. The real reason is because I had to and I may not have even liked it one bit. I did it anyhow, because I had to. The thing that seems to get me, is how people are so completely shocked. If I could be snarky, a part of me would say "to piss you off," very sarcastically, but I can't and won't.
Overall, it varies by question and person.
I don't know if that helps at all, but hopefully it does.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 19, 2016, 12:16:24 pm
Quote
This one is even murkier. Why did you do what, exactly? I'm kind of wondering what kind of act prompts these questions.
Other times are when I'm asked "why did you do that?!" The implication is that I couldn't have possibly had any reason to do it and I'm nuts for having done it.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on April 19, 2016, 03:29:17 pm
"Why did you ______________!?"
1. load the dishes like that
2. put salt on scrambled eggs
3. park where you did
4. forget to pick up the mail
There are answers to all of these. The dishes wouldn't fit any other way. I like salt on scrambled eggs. There was nowhere closer to park. I forgot to pick up the mail.
Other people seem to have more specific stuff.
"Why did you ______________!?"
A. move the forklift over there
B. tell them the policy says not to
C. not come get me
D. write it down instead of putting it in the computer
There are answers to all of these. Because that was the only way I could get stuff done. Because the policy does say that and I might get fired if I don't. Because you weren't anywhere around and I couldn't find you. Because the computer system just wasn't working and there was a ton of stuff to get done (they always assume the computer will work, but it doesn't).
Post by: Trapezohedron on April 19, 2016, 08:03:17 pm
It's just as well on my case anyway, since I can absentmindedly agree to things when I meant the opposite.
As for the last few examples, do you have a particular hate at being screamed at, accused of and so on? I wouldn't say that it's natural, but some people just like shouting at others when they believe a mistake has been done, when they haven't been clear on their part anyway. You can try stating the below answers to those questions, and inquire if it did matter.
Then you can feedback with you won't/will do it next time, as you see fit, or give a response in the case of policies being ignored etc, since customers have a right to know company policies if they demand to know, or if you think they need to know.
During any of those reactions, you need to catch yourself on the act where you're building up unwarranted and unnecessary energy and then react appropriately. And by appropriately, I mean, focusing on Zen (On a single goal, without any distractions) and delivering your response.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on April 21, 2016, 02:45:48 pm
I also keep comparing stuff to other past events that happened and remembering bad things. This does not help, because it both takes up time and might be something that happened years ago that doesn't help with dealing with the present difficult situation. Also, people asking me questions slows me down quite a bit. It's kind of like I'm doing something, and someone asks why.... I ... have to do it?
So comparing stuff to the past is bad feelings and distraction. It throws me off a whole lot actually.
Does anybody actually like getting yelled at? I know I don't one bit. I'm trying for the zen stuff but that is hard.
Post by: Truean on April 22, 2016, 11:25:30 am
Asking stupid questions (yes they exist): AKA Denial.
People can't deal with the real world. This includes bosses, managers, business owners, shareholders, etc. Wall St. perfectly shows this. They basically wait around praying stocks will go up or down. There is no way to predict this, so they rely upon basically vodoo models, graphs, etc. If people could predict the stock market.... Except you can't.
Same deal with any and every business and goal. Everyone wants everything done for no cost, effort, time, inconvenience, etc, and they want to be made to feel great. This is impossible; the world is full of crazy people. That Ocean of Emotions I told you about? That's what's stirring all this up. There is no point trying to stop or influence it; better to expect and deal with it when it inevitably comes. It will.
Example: "A" has authority over "B" to get Task 1 done. "A" will look better if Task 1 is done cheap, fast, well, etc.
"A"'s superiors are assholes who expect the impossible. "A" must deliver as close to the impossible as possible. All "A" use to do this is "B" who can only do so much themselves. "A is essentially praying that "B" can both do the impossible, not show up "A" and work for peanuts, and "A" is going to yell about this no matter what. He's basically denying the real world, like everybody else. Conversely, "B" is also denying THE ABOVE real world facts by expecting people to be reasonable and not expect the impossible. They're going to. Deal as best you can.
See how everyone in this example A's Superiors, "A," "B," and customers/coworkers are all basically in denial. Whatever product or service we're talking about, will not be a magical injection that fixes everything, but that's what they're expecting. Nopes.
Same goes with any time anyone asks you a stupid question. They're denying the obvious flaws in the universe that forced you to do something sub optimally, even though doing it "better" would've been better for you. You didn't have that option. The real answer to all of these questions is "Shit happens," BUT WE CAN'T SAY THAT.
So what the hell are you and I and everybody else supposed to do: you've seen my answer. I try to use my imagination to create a place (not real but still) where there are good things happening to me and good people around me supporting me. Combine that with awareness and coping techniques, it seems to be reasonable enough to me. I have the equivalent of imaginary friends and locations inside my head that I know aren't real. I'm sitting quietly in bed imagining them. Persons and places where more comfortable, nicer things exist.... Is it a little odd, perhaps. That said, consider two options, A.) Focus on every terrible thing that's happened, B.) Imagine something better. Which option would you like your spare time spent on?
I have half a mind to sort of set something up to share based on this principle (some imaginary place).
Post by: Plex on April 22, 2016, 07:40:17 pm
Ultimately, nobody in the world wakes up in the morning and thinks, "You know what? Today I'm going to be an utter bastard."
I don't even know how many times this has happened to me.
Seriously though, people really can suck. Just try to do what they ask of you, and be polite - it really helps!
Definitely not secretly a PTW.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on April 26, 2016, 10:14:35 am
Example:
I explain that we have to do things a certain way and clearly, quickly lay out what needs to be done and how.
A lot of the time the other person will either ask "why?" or "why not (doing it some other way)?" or "What about (Some other thing that is not what I said)?"
The answer to these things is all pretty simple, "Because the rules say we have to and I don't have a choice." I don't know what answer to give them or that they could possibly be expecting. Is it as if there's some other, better answer I'm secretly hiding from them and if they just question and pressure me enough, then they will somehow get that answer. Why do they think I explained it the way I did? Just for my health or to piss them off?
Someone with more power than either one of us has decided that this is the way it's going to be. They make the rules and not me. I don't even know why they made the rules that way, and hell, I might not even agree with it personally. So what? There's nothing I can do about it, but it seems people are dead set to look at me expectantly like I should be able to magically make them happy. I can't, because it's not possible. There's a process I didn't create, can't change, and have to follow, so saying "I just want _____ (instead of doing it the way the rules say)," won't do jack. But please keep looking at me like I"m stabbing you.... Please no.
How do I deal with this person who just will NOT take the real world for an answer and I have no choice but to deal with? The magic wand is broken. I can't just change whatever someone wants and if I could, do you think I wouldn't have made myself rich and powerful or something instead of being in this situation? :(
Post by: ChairmanPoo on April 26, 2016, 10:27:12 am
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on April 26, 2016, 10:47:17 am
What happens if they get upset or continue to insist the reason is BS or not right or whatever?
Post by: Trapezohedron on April 27, 2016, 09:12:18 pm
"Because that's what Sir/M(r)s. Whommadunnit told us to do. Our grades depend on performing it exactly as ordered."
If it's a boss
"Because that's what our boss said. We might lose jobs if we don't do it this way."
If you have no idea why, but know that you've been told.
"I don't know, but that's what they said we should do and I suggest we stick to it."
If they insist reason is BS
"Are you the one giving the orders? No? Just do your work."
in a more polite form:
"It doesn't really matter; our boss/teacher told us to do it this way and we might get penalized if we do it another way so let's just stay safe."
If they insist further
"Whatever, but I'll be telling [whoever] you insisted to do it this way when they come to inquire us about what we're doing.
Post by: Truean on April 30, 2016, 08:47:55 am
Yet again, remove yourself mentally from the situation for a moment in order to understand it. View from 20,000 ft above:
The other person is foolishly attempting to bend the universe to their will. You are a part of the universe, ergo, they try it with you too. That, or they are being emotionally immature. EQ, much like IQ, is a measure of how smart you are concerning emotions. These people are tossed in a tempest they can't see and don't know how to make themselves feel better, so they flail around foolishly. They are unaware and refuse to be aware that they are stupid.
Some examples of mistakes made by people who don't understand emotions:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
In all, you recognize, realize, and reframe. Recognize the weaknesses of these poor, blind souls caught in the great emotional tempest. Realize it can't be helped and they would fight you for trying. Reframe your awareness of the situation.
Ultimately, retaining your composure (in the face of all this foolishness) is the only real source of power anyone has. Others may try to get a reaction out of you, because they mistake that reaction for understanding/caring and the lack of it for lack of those things. After all, they falsely reason, anyone who understood what they understood would be reacting the way they are (badly). False. The trauma room surgeon sees horrors every single day, many times a day, and knows he or she has a dozen more mangled patients waiting once this one's patched up. Imagine the emergency room doctor having an emotional reaction every time he seems a horridly injured car accident victim.... That wouldn't help anyone.
Instead, the ER doc looks at the situation from 20,000 ft above and assesses it rationally. They know the broken arm, fractured humorous bone, probably hurts like hell and is horrible, but this fact doesn't help anyone. That's why it's not immediately relevant no matter how much the patient complains of it. The ER doc has to deal with patient number 27 for today's (perhaps justified but not useful) bitching as a symptom while faking a concern (bedside manner) and mentally calculating which drugs to administer at what dosage while watching out for chemical interactions, and what treatments to perform. THAT LAST SENTENCE does matter and is immediately relevant, because it might fix things. In any event, the patient will still complain (again perhaps justifiably) and the doctor has to just work around it, because it isn't going to stop for a while at least. Apply this to other situations. That is ascension above the tempest waves.
I hope this helped somewhat.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on May 04, 2016, 05:33:25 pm
I dunno how you manage T.
Post by: Trapezohedron on May 04, 2016, 09:00:06 pm
Y'know. Phoenix Wrighting and stuff.
Post by: Truean on May 07, 2016, 12:20:38 am
Swimming in the Ocean is difficult. The emotional waves are unseen but real and soaking you. Flailing and complaining mean drowning. Take swimming lessons.
Those around you are drowning; they will pull you under if you don't realize what's happening. You can't save them and yourself from drowning emotionally. Choose; swim without splashing others.... Explanations are not buoyancy and won't keep your head above water. You can't swim for them, and you won't convince them to.
Learn to swim; here are lessons:
View from above. Imagine someone balling up their fists, repeatedly bashing them against your side while screaming they hate you at the top of their lungs, and demanding something. Imagine that person is 2 years old.... Context.... Perspective is important.
Sadly, too many people have the mentality, and emotional maturity of that 2 year old. They've had it reinforced for years, because as infants we cry to get what we need.... Nobody taught them to swim and the ineffective flailing was rewarded. Guess how they act? After all these years, that's not changing. Hurts them; annoys the hell out of everybody else. Here's the real kick in the head, nobody taught you (or most people) how to deal with this crap and you don't know how to deal with the waves they make.... We make the Ocean waves that drown each other and ourselves.
To obtain the bird's eye is to turn a blizzard to a breeze.
Swimming better means practice and conditioning yourself. Practice swimming to swim better, especially in rough waters. The conditioning will make it easier to deal with the rough waters. Preparation. So how do you practice here and what does that mean:
Remember that happy place, imaginary world to fantasize about when you're trying to go to sleep at night? Yeah, that. Consider, two scenarios, one where a person thinks better thoughts and one where someone obsesses over bad thoughts. Who do you think would do better generally in an adverse situation?
Focus on doing things to increase likelihood of good outcomes, vs how not to.... Difficult to explain; incredibly important. Generally, in any situation, focus on the future and what can be done to increase the odds of decent outcomes. It's doing what you can with what you have where you are.
Concerning the horrid customer situation example. Let's say you're working somewhere and some crazy jackass customer comes in with completely impossible screaming demands he or she has no intention of letting you fulfill. Look, you're just gonna get screamed at by this moron and so would anyone. What are the possible outcomes?
a.) You stoop to crazy jackass customer's level, then you get fired and / or have bad emotions because of this (see also, annoying and offensive internet troll).
b.) Transcend. Realize the situation (see above). Cover your ass (CYA). Aim to get through the situation in the best shape you can. If it is possible solve the customer's problem, but your primary goal is self preservation in this messed up situation (keep that bit to yourself). You're acting and putting on a meaningless show you need to detach yourself from. It's a performance during heckling. Not your fault.
Do what you need to while not appearing detached, that's the performance. It'll increase the odds of a decent outcome from that mess. Later, make up for it inside your imagination. I've had so many people threaten to hurt me, kill me, kill my family, etc, that at one point I very calmly told one of them to take a number to make it fair for the others who wanted to put me out of my misery. That's an extreme example I don't recommend emulating, but the circumstances were quite different from what I imagine most people face. I do hope you don't have to have a neo nazi skin head who beat the ever-loving hell out of some innocent Jewish gentleman staring you down, screaming you're selling him out. I called that Tuesday; everyone called me a monster for representing him. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you. Hi.... Doesn't mean he'll want to be appointed, but somebody's gotta be and damn that short straw loves to drawn by me.
Consider my alternatives.
I could have shown I was afraid (anyone who says they aren't in that situation is lying).
I could have gone off and screamed right back at him (deserved, but not desirable).
Stick to the customer service script
I mostly chose that last one, because it was the best option due to the increased chance of better outcome. Or, rather, the other two choices had a far lesser chance of good outcome. Later at night, I imagined far nicer things in my imaginary world while trying to sleep.
Those are some of the rudimentary swimming strokes. We'll try learning the individual movements of those before moving on to the more advanced swimming strokes.
I do hope that helps. If you'd like, perhaps you might give an anonymous example of something you're having trouble with to be walked through?
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on May 08, 2016, 04:53:34 pm
Um, yeah not sure what to say right now but can I get back to you with some problems I've got and things I'm not dealing with well like people?
So um, I guess as one of those let's say someone is just repeatedly asking me something they've asked me 6 times already as if they're not believing me? I've answered them and I guess they don't like the answer. It's literally time number 6 in a 5 minute period they've asked and there's that sort of tone of voice like they don't believe me.
"Did you close the windows?" (O god, yes, yes I totally did a while ago. Please tell me you believe I can close a bunch of windows. I'm smart enough for that).
Post by: Truean on May 08, 2016, 11:39:51 pm
You did a task you were told to do. Someone repeatedly asks if it is done.
Their motive, moves, and mood are irrelevant, because you can't control them. Know them, but know you can't alter them. It is their problem. A reasonable person would either verify closed windows, take your word for it, or some combination. Repeatedly asking you won't do much, and thus is unreasonable. That will NOT stop them from doing that though. Not much will.
Therefore, the only thing you can practically focus on is your reaction: in thought, emotion, and behavior. Focus on result desired. If required, repeat the answer and try not to let it get to you emotionally. I accomplish this through emotional distance and remembering that it doesn't matter how many times they question. The answer is the same. The sky will still be blue, and if you closed the windows, then they will have been closed.
Realize and familiarize yourself with the sad logical fallacy people delude themselves with. Somehow, people believe repeated questioning will change answers..... The definition of insanity is repeatedly doing the same thing and expecting different results.... So yeah, when people repeatedly ask you again and again..... Understanding and remembering this key fact seems to help, because it lets you realize, arguing is pointless in this instance, as is anything else.
Figure out the best course of action and do it, even if that means repeating. Take into account that people with power may well be wrong, but may also give you negative consequences if you piss them off (no matter how justified). Thus, don't piss them off. It's the same idea as saying "nice doggy" to a snarling mutt. A small retreat into your happy place for a short moment when safe and appropriate, may help. Also, "Root" yourself, focus on where you are and focus on what the best thing you can do is and how to do it.
Realize you can't control or stop the stupid questions.
Figure out coping and plan actions with best outcome probability.
Maintain yourself mentally and physically (that happy place imagining in safe spaces like bed).
I hope that helps somewhat.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on May 09, 2016, 09:59:33 am
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 09, 2016, 03:00:34 pm
*applies hugs*
I think Truean pretty much covered it. And then some. And then some more.
Post by: gimlet on May 09, 2016, 05:51:39 pm
Another way to distance yourself is to realize that that initial rush of feelings is just body chemistry, trying to do it's best for your distant ancestors running around in tribes on the savannahs 100,000 years ago, and that it's almost always counter productive in modern social situations. It's called the "Fight or Flight" response, and you need to control it and replace it with cunning and planning.
Sometimes I think of it in game terms, taking some trouble to level up the "InControl" skill, and ideally moving up the skill tree to "WhatDoIWantFromThisEncounter" and "StrategyToShapeMyEnvironment". You know you have to pay the price, usually something like fatigue and happiness, to get the longer term gains.
So for me, choosing my response is "winning" the encounter, the positive feeling from that compensates for the effort of overcoming the emotional rush. Also the general rule of thumb that uncontrolled responses, especially reflexive aggro for aggro or letting somebody push your buttons is almost always a "losing" strategy.
Post by: Truean on May 10, 2016, 09:59:54 am
There is one, and only one, area you can control: your mind. The good news is you can have anything you want in your mind, but not physical objects. You clearly need the real world (obviously), but you're not going to have a gold veined marble mansion with luxury in the real world. Conversely, you see stupid rich people with everything who are somehow miserable. That's because they're morally and mentally bankrupt, but not financially. AKA rich bastards.
So as gimlet kinda says, controlling your mind and emotions is key. It is what you can control, difficult though that is. Controlling your mind may not make you materially rich, but it doesn't hurt and might help. One key aspect to this is not to allow others to alter your mind and mental domain.
Speaking of which, wanting to scream or cry, is (without judgment) a sign of someone changing your emotions. It is hard as hell, but that's something to work on for the longer term and permanent greatness.
Imagine having free virtual reality of the best kind you possibly could forever, for free. That's your imagination if you develop it. Part of that is controlling the emotions, thoughts, and images in your head in response to everything including other people.
So, concrete examples (in short) to deal with people being jerks to you include progressive muscle relaxation, mentally being half there (paying just enough attention not to get in trouble while you get screamed at, aka a variant of "smile and nod"), and others.
Please excuse me making this post kinda rushed. I'm sorta having some time issues at present, but I also didn't wanna leave you hanging so....
Post by: Truean on May 10, 2016, 05:15:54 pm
Have an understanding of the situation, see my previous posts in this thread.
Two words: Loss Mitigation.
Shit happens. It could be happening to you, right now. There's not a whole lot you can do to stop it. Now, that's not comforting, but it is informative and helps deal with it. Apply loss mitigation (choosing the lesser of the evils):
1.) Obviously for real world consequences: screaming, hitting, etc, will probably lead to worse situations than the one you are in now. Clearly, avoid those. Same goes with lesser frowned upon behaviors.
2.) Mentally and emotionally: Again, you are dealing with most people having the emotional intelligence of an ill behaved two year old. Ever tried arguing or even conversing with a two year old when they want something they can't have (candy, ice cream for dinner, every single toy in the world, or to know "are we there yet?")? Yeah, it's not productive. Though not as obvious as the physical loss mitigation noted above in #1, it's just as important.
There are times you may just want to punch right through someone's stupidity, but that won't work out too well. What with the jail time and the arrest, and the maybe getting sued or hit back or something. Not a good idea, but you knew that. It's the same thing mentally and emotionally.
If you read some of the things I've posted here again, you'll see some ideas I have found helpful including changing your stimuli (things that effect you) mentally through imagining when it's safe and ok to do so (bed). This has multiple good effects including helping you sleep, stop thinking about other things instead of sleeping, and providing you with some good experiences (even if only imaginary ones, as opposed to none). Think about a movie that looked awesome in the trailer and previews, but then you see it and it ... sucked while really failing to live up to expectations. See how the expectations can alter your mood (before the real thing ruined it). Your imagination can be like that awesome looking movie trailer except it never has to disappoint you by not being what it was supposed to. One of the keys is to have those good trailers running in your head, and to do that, you have to control what's in your head. Easier said than done, I know but that's the goal.
I do hope this helps somewhat.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on May 10, 2016, 08:43:23 pm
I'm probably still going to have problems with this stuff for a while so I'm going to keep this open and if it's ok I'll ask some more questions and stuff.
Post by: Tiruin on May 10, 2016, 10:22:53 pm
Yeah, it does help and thank you all.Tiny prod here. :P
I'm probably still going to have problems with this stuff for a while so I'm going to keep this open and if it's ok I'll ask some more questions and stuff.
One's interaction is always the result of one's understanding, their experience, and their perception onto what they see. So even their BEHAVIOR AND REACTION can affect how they, personally, react in future similar experiences. (Perception = Sensing the environment + Giving meaning to it)
So for that example, even simple 'descriptors' affect your perception as they are the meaning behind the words you use; there's wisdom in heeding parenting that gives discipline and detail to what you call other people. "Asshole, Jerk, Stupid..." All those terms, derogatory or otherwise, affect how you see others AND THUS how you may respond to them.
This follows how you think about any stimuli (actions) going towards you, too. :O Since we're all on a continuum of action in daily life.
I'm having a real problem not wanting to scream at somebody or scream or cry or something. Just feels like shit. What do I do with that feeling, cause I have no fucking idea?Please note that feelings alone also have one's understanding and meaning to partially make up its effect on the person. :)
Part of that lies in how you have understood what has happened to you.
"Did you close the windows?" (O god, yes, yes I totally did a while ago. Please tell me you believe I can close a bunch of windows. I'm smart enough for that).Do note that here, in a possible innocuous question, there is both one's perception, and one's sensation taking place. In studying a person's general cognitive understanding of the world around them, there is a foundation that generally everyone follows--seeking 'WHY'. In cases like these, there's the usual question of 'why are they repeating this D:'
This is when we begin to associate possibilities to give us an inference of an answer.
> Maybe they don't believe me?
> Maybe they don't trust me :I
> Maybe they're just making sure
As there's a LOT of ways to take these things--the best way to go around these is by mutual communication. You could ask why they're mentioning this and then mention what you feel if you're constantly asked, or you could go on a general personal understanding, by thinking something completely neutral in the least: "They just want to make sure. Security and all. It's how they proceed with things."
How you think about things also influences how you feel and react to things. Your perception and outlook is as valuable as any understanding coming forth from you. :3
As an aside, it may be best to plop down some notable people. Aaron Beck, and Albert Ellis: Both proponents of therapeutic procedures [Cognitive Behavioral Therapy//Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy], their research and detailing would generally help the masses as long as they're invested in learning and studying how these concepts apply in our thinking.
Post by: Truean on May 16, 2016, 11:43:53 am
"How do I deal with people?" is an important but foolish question. It generalizes. Some generalizations are accurate; many aren't. The overwhelming majority of people, are stupid (careful of the arrogance trap). They try and fail to deal with life. They believe emotions just "happen" and essentially ransom minds. Replace "emotions" with "behaviors" and observe the absurdity. Yes, emotions are sometimes beyond control or influence, not always. Sadly, most people never even TRY to influence their emotions. Failing to try is trying to fail.
You are probably dealing with these people.... Of course, they're foolish, stupid, and sometimes infuriating. Expect it; anticipate it; plan for it. Physically, they are adults, maybe elders; emotionally, they are 2 years old. You may well be speaking to morons; expect the obvious results. Cover your ass (CYA).
THIS has been the source of the world's problems forever: humans can't regulate emotions well, or at all:
Jealousy, rage, violence, war, drugs, just about everything, stems from this. The druggies are seeking a "high" (emotional state). War is frustration boiling over into violence, as is rage. Etc, etc, etc.
Most of humanity's problems are failures to find reasonable solutions, because of emotions.
Example HR: [rant]
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Margins:
It's also about margins. Margins are immensely important and one of the more business-side benefits of an economics degree (that people have foolishly forgotten about). A margin (basically) is the cost and benefit of producing one more of something. In other words, it's the cost and benefit of taking another action (could be a personal thing you do or something a company does). Point being, it's about logically going over what to do next given all the things influencing you at the present (and possibly future via risk management). This is one way that may assist in dealing with bad situations: focusing on the goals through the bad situation. (Economics, "the dismal science," assumes the world is a crapshoot and in theory tries to make it less of one by producing more "goods."). It's a way to get the best you can out of a situation given the alternatives in front of you.
If you'd like, I can go over some of this stuff with behaviors, thoughts and emotions. That is, if you think it might help you.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on May 16, 2016, 06:20:08 pm
There's no real emotional fulfillment and I tend to dwell on that stuff. It sucks.
I'm trying to understand some of the stuff you're saying, but it's hard to implement when somebody's screaming at you.
Post by: Truean on May 16, 2016, 07:30:40 pm
Right now I'm a little pressed for time, but I would like to respond as I'm sure others do as well. Never give up.
Post by: Truean on May 21, 2016, 08:52:40 am
Any screaming person is caught in this emotional storm, is unable to understand it, but battered by it all the same. Ultimately, we are all caught in it. See it; know it; cope with it. That is a lofty but reachable goal. Some will never, but some will.
Understand your brain is many parts, physiologically and psychologically. Here, we say the logical brain is the higher, more recently evolved part: thought, reason, etc. The primitive brain deal in emotions, flight or fight, anxiety, etc. It served cave people well. Your logical brain tries to make sense of the world as it can, but doesn't realize that primitive brain is very active both in yourself and others. Your primitive brain gives you anxiety, but remember, you're not the only one with a primitive brain.... Everyone else has that side too. So your logical brain is conflicting with your primitive brain (trying to understand your emotions), while also conflicting with everyone else's primitive brain. The same goes for them, though sadly some are more logical than others, some are far less, and more emotional....
The person yelling at you and provoking emotions from you is really your logical brain overwhelmed by your own primitive brain, and THE OTHER PERSON'S primitive brain. Meanwhile if and to the extent that they use the logical portion of their brain, it too is conflicted.....
Welcome to a very basic introductory anatomy of the storm.... These are some of the things causing waves in that emotional ocean tempest so few see but all feel. They're flailing at anything, and everything, not even aware that they are drowning, but certainly feeling the pressure in their lungs: that's water....
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on May 21, 2016, 06:57:57 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on May 21, 2016, 07:12:12 pm
Post by: Truean on May 22, 2016, 06:36:01 pm
You perhaps see the sea you drown in now. See the water to swim in and above it. As stated, condition yourself as preparation to improve results. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=157225.msg6983087#msg6983087)
The conditioning and preparation help you deal with being unjustly screamed at, as does understanding the situation.... When screamed at, the general sense of calm created by conditioning helps as a better baseline. Understanding the situation helps you adapt to it.
Example: Rude as hell customer has a problem. Sadly, your job means you are the target of their rage.
Behaviorally, obviously remain outwardly calm. Never let them see you sweat (99% of the time). Distill their bullshit complaints down to easy to understand bullet-points. That way you can devote minimal resources to remembering them and the details behind them. This will allow you to do what you have to in order to avoid negative consequences to you.
Mentally, remembering those bullet-points, imagine yourself in a better place (happy place?), where you are not in this bind. Rather you're basically manipulating your own emotional state, which is hard but possible and advantageous. Actually TheBiggerFish wasn't too far off with imagining they're screaming at someone behind you.
Emotionally, distance yourself and realize they are stupid. Whatever their problem is, they have limited language skills. The best way to resolve problems is talking, not screaming. They will receive nothing good from yelling at somebody who can't really prevent or deal with the problem. They are stupidly wasting their energy. It does not reflect upon you; you are not the cause of all the problems they have, though they are stupidly blaming you. It is unfair and unjust. Their emotional immaturity gives them no right to do this, but sadly our society encourages it. It is not you, this is critical to believe, because they are essentially saying it is you. It isn't.
Professionally, keep that bullet-pointed list in mind. Follow whatever procedure you have to. Don't disregard your training and education because some moron is screaming and demanding it. Customers who scream are stupid and don't know how to deal with their problems most of the time. You gain nothing (and they gain nothing) by going down to their level. There are rare exceptions, but those are few and far between (and risky as hell). This will CYA and usually also deal with the problem the best way you are able. It is their problem and doesn't reflect upon you. Keep saying this to yourself, because it is overwhelmingly true 9 times out of 10.
You may correctly say this is difficult and requires mental processing. Yes, I've found it to be worth it. I hope it may be for you as well. Do you see a little more of the picture now? I hope so and that it helps you.
Let's say this happens:
Customer: "I want a refund on this item."
Employee: "Ok, do you have a receipt?"
Customer: "No, but I bought it here. They let me return things all the time at your other branch."
Employee: "I'm sorry Miss, but I can't do a return without a receipt It's store policy."
Customer: "You what?! I've been coming here for 11 years and I've never heard that before."
Employee: "I was always trained to require a receipt before a return. Store Policy."
Customer: "The customer is always right and I've been one for 11 years."
Employee: "I understand you're upset about this situation, but without a receipt the company won't allow a return."
Customer: "I want to see your manager." [Lovely snide tone]
Employee: "My manager is out to lunch right now. I'm not sure when she'll be back exac"
Customer: "O typical! I bet you just don't wanna do it!"
Employee: "No Miss. I can't do a return without a receipt and I'm sure my manager will say the same."
Customer: "You can't just do a simple return?"
Employee: "Not without a receipt, no Miss."
Customer: "I want to file a complaint with your boss or the store or whoever."
Employee: "I'm sure if you do they will also say a receipt is required Miss."
At this point, either the customer will devolve into screaming, report to corporate, or give up, but ultimately, you can't control what she does. She's a moron, and rather than try to find some alternative way to resolve the situation (going home and getting a copy of her credit card statement and coming back to politely see the manager with it or something), she's proven she's a jerk. Threatening the employee does nothing good for her, except fulfill her desire to complain and ruin another person's day.
CYA (Cover Your Ass). If possible, you want to document this thing after it is over. Note the time, date, and basics of the conversation. Remember those bullet-points? Customer wanted a return without receipt; I politely and repeatedly informed her store policy didn't allow this. She attempted to blame employees for this. I simply repeatedly restated policy. Tried to give customer the option of waiting for manager to come back from lunch; she cut me off. (or whatever your store policy / manager told you do to / follow your training). She's gonna complain if she's gonna complain, but this way you at least have your story straight.
Mentally, have those bullet-points,
"Customer wanted return without receipt; was told store policy doesn't allow.
Manager at lunch; tried to suggest solution; was cut off.
Customer argued and intimidated; I remained polite.
Meanwhile, I'm on a marble Terrance in my mind. Three lines to remember. Mental and emotional distance. Repeat bullet-points; insert, "I am solving not causing this." When situation ends, document it quickly, writing down bullet-points, time, date, etc. That's the plan anyhow, and yes it certainly is hard, but I contend worth it.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on June 01, 2016, 09:10:23 am
Can I get some help in dealing with some more difficult situations? I mean like the other person starts blaming me and they aren't a customer but someone else I have to deal with who has authority over me. Or maybe a family member or friend or something. It's worse when they are not really asking and are demanding things from me like time or work or whatever. Worse, I'm being told I'm worthless by some family, because I'm not what they wanted me to be / am not doing quite so well. They have their own problems they don't handle well and I'm a great person to yell at and talk down to, because I'm in a bad position.
I sorry to throw this at you.
Post by: Truean on June 03, 2016, 11:21:11 am
Given mostly generalizations (actors not actions) I can mostly answer only generally.
A key here is the power the other person holds over you. Even if you are dead right, that person can be wrong but powerful and punish you. The unfairness / unjust nature of the punishment won't save you from it. Thus, one of your key considerations must be avoiding the punishment. Tragically, this may mean going against your own interests, because somebody has a literal or figurative club over your head threatening to bash it in. You do what you can with what you have where you are, until you can change these circumstances. Survive; overcome.
Am I hearing you right that they are demanding work and time from you? I'm guessing unpaid? This may depend upon several factors I don't have information for. If you are living with family, then this could be part of an implied rent (which is often abused by one part or the other, usually the landlord as they have more power). In this instance you need to be careful not to jeopardize your living arrangements. They may well be taking advantage depending upon the time / services rendered, but there sadly isn't much you can do right at this time.
The focus should be gaining independence from this situation. You have only so much time, and using this time best is the goal of clearing your mind / dealing with negative thoughts. Whatever free time you have needs to be divided into a couple of things primarily: a.) finding an alternative means of supporting yourself (i.e. gainful employment), and focusing / recuperating. Ruminating upon the terrible nature of the circumstances (no matter how unjust they are) will not provide a solution. Understanding it might, but be careful not to dwell on it, at the expense of working towards a solution. Is it the best option, no. Is it fair, certainly not. Sadly, that's the most pragmatic solution most of the time, and it's quite a bit more difficult than it should be. This is unfortunate and regrettable, and I realize that may not be worth much to you.
Flowing into the other part of being told you are "worthless...." This is sad and not helpful. Believe me, I have several deadbeat relatives (of the employed and unemployed variety) who are taking up valuable resources with the goal of screwing people. I refuse to be like them; tried to help them; got kicked in the teeth for my trouble. No thank you. "Worthless" is not a helpful term, because it doesn't lead to a solution. There are two things to keep in mind here:
These may apply to more than just yourself:
1.) What things about yourself could you improve?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
2.) What are ways you can cope with problems of an immediate nature?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Given the information I have in the prior post, that's about all I can manage. It's rather generalized, but each situation is different in life. As much as we would all benefit from a "one size fits all" solution, I fear none exists. Facts and circumstances dictate for us all.
'Tis the path we must walk as best we are able.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on June 04, 2016, 02:02:50 pm
Certainly, I'm the problem and if they could just say more words to me, then things would clear up. Nope, the problem is their words and the fact that they won't shut up at all, and it seems like that's just a thing they will never do. Quiet isn't a thing to them. Whenever someone calls them on the fact that they won't shut up they respond with "I'm just saying" or "I'm just asking," or "It's a simple question." Yeah, ok, and the person asking for this to stop is making an even simpler request, but that's not gonna happen. Meanwhile, this person, who has been begged to shut up several times, still somehow acts surprised. I want to scream but I can't. It feels like everybody wants to fucking talk all day long, and acts upset when I finally get a word in edgewise like I should be shutting up. It's so unbalanced because they'll talk forever and I can hardly say anything.
I'm not being talked TO. I'm being talked AT.
Everybody's feelings matter. Except mine. Their feelings are a license to bitch all day everyday to everyone around them and I just have to be like superhuman or something and suck up all their abuse with a smile.
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 04, 2016, 10:46:38 pm
Post by: Truean on June 06, 2016, 11:53:04 am
Same principles. Slightly different application. Realize it is all an irritant irritating you. The volume, tone, and content of voice are all part of the same whole. Be it terrible words or terrible screeching it is a flawed communication from the speaker one must overcome. Believe me, I know well the annoyance of having someone around whose voice is simply grating, perhaps to you or to everyone.
Unfortunately, the only remedy is to get through it and alter your perception of this individual when you must. Limited contact isn't always an option, but of course seems preferable. Think of different, happier things. It's the same remedy as if someone is cussing you out or otherwise getting under your skin.
On a wider note this is a person people in the general public should try very hard not to become. Somewhere along the way, every person acting intolerably was buffeted around by their own emotions and others' emotions. It's a sad state of affairs on several levels. First, that person is probably in a lot of turmoil. Second, that turmoil is difficult for others to deal with and thus self sustaining. Third, they may never see the truth and violently shut their eyes to it and all who point it out. Quite sad for all involved really.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on June 10, 2016, 03:09:30 pm
What if I have people who seem to always scapegoat me? Like, they basically get upset AT ME whenever something bad comes up if it is my fault or not. They know I won't fight back or scream at them or whatever 'cause they know I can't. Something comes up and I get totally yelled at and blamed. I'm trying to think up some examples so you have something to work with I guess. Kinda like these ones.
The dog crapped on the floor.
Ok, but first off, I let him out repeatedly and took him for walks and he did it anyhow. I'm going to be the one cleaning it up so it isn't like I want that to happen. Also why isn't the dog getting yelled at instead of me, because he's the one who did it. God please tell me I'm not responsible when the dog poops on the floor inside.
Something breaks.
I didn't break it. Stuff breaks sometimes like computers and cars need repaired and stuff. Same goes for the gate latch on the fence gate. Everybody slams that thing and it gets beaten up so of course it's going to be out of joint and need realigned. It isn't like I slammed it shut more than anybody else did, including the person yelling at me.
We run out of some kind of food.
Food gets eaten and then you get more. I thought that was how it works. Yup, milk gets drank or poured over cereal or whatever and I'm totally not the only one eating it. I'm totally the only one getting yelled at about it though.
Something didn't come in the mail.
O come on and please don't tell me it's my fault when other people don't send stuff.
The government demands something be done.
The mailbox needs to be made higher because the lady from the post office sent a letter saying so. That means it the post has to be dug up and raised. Or, maybe the zoning guy doesn't want a fence built somewhere or certain things done in the yard because that's how things are here. None of this stuff is my fault and there isn't anything I can do about it, but I'm gonna get yelled at.
Something happens at work
Boss is upset because higher ups made a stupid new policy or set some ridiculous goal he knows we can't reach without hiring more people they won't pay for. He's gonna get yelled at and that means I'm gonna get yelled at by him.
Basically, I make a good person to yell at around where I live because I'm not going to fight back. I really can't.
Lately I've been trying to deal with it better and I've been doing a little better job, but really when you look at it. Things are still quite hard really, I have to say. I'm not sure if I'm not doing things the best way or if like, there's something else I could be doing. I've tried some of the suggestions here like going into a happy place (and that helps a little but it's hard to do that while saying in the moment so I can deal with it). I've also tried some of the other stuff too and sometimes that helps.
Any other tips guys? They might just help a lot so thanks up front.
Post by: Truean on June 14, 2016, 08:27:23 am
Told you about the happy place. Here's the "unhappy" place. AKA "Yellow Rooming."
Want / need to scream at somebody but can't? Experiences (stimuli) can be real or imaginary. Happy place lets you have better imagined stimuli and environments; unhappy place lets you release bad stimuli. The reason this is a more advanced lesson is because it can go wrong if misapplied. See also how people mentioned zoning out at the wrong time can be bad....
Yelling in real life has bad consequences. Yell, but not in real life. Feel better playing that first person shooter, blowing away video game enemies? It's not real; your mind can't tell the difference. You feel better having done it, though it was fake ( Catharsis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis) ). You didn't shoot anything real in that game; it's all lights and binary clockwork. That, but in your head and usually much much more toned down.
Yellow Rooming:
Imagine a room where everything is bright yellow made of thought positioned where your cerebellum is. Everything in the room, all boundaries, people, objects, and just everything is yellow. Functionally similar to the Star Trek Holodeck (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodeck) This is to make it distinct from reality, so you never mix the two up as you are incredibly unlikely to see an entire place where literally everything and everyone is yellow.
Imagine screaming at people there inside your imaginary completely yellow room. You are yellow; they are yellow; all is yellow. You're not actually going to say or do anything in the real world. It's just thought, and safe as long as it remains just thought. As a rule, I would avoid imagining violence in the yellow room, at all, or at least for those not advanced in this technique. Never act on anything from this; there is a reason everything is separate and purely imaginary. Keep it that way.
I've had to resort to this repeatedly with utterly terrible situations you don't want to imagine. There's nothing wrong with imagining, and only imagining, yelling at somebody. It keeps you from physically talking to them or talking to yourself, as you might get in trouble for doing either of those things.
Just as the "happy place" can be used to deal with positive imaginary experiences. The "unhappy place" aka yellow room can be used to deal with negative experiences by keeping them safely imaginary.
Application:
For the most part, this is best used in a limited capacity. Have negative thoughts keeping you up at night? Remembering that horrid customer who said you were worse than Hitler because you actually couldn't accept their return without getting fired? Yeah, you're losing sleep laying in bed from those thoughts. When laying in bed, consider zoning out to the yellow room; imagine a totally separate place (not your work where you encountered the customer). Imagine saying to the customer all the things you'd like to (in your imagination only).
Imagine the customer sadly nodding and apologizing, because it isn't fair to say you're worse than Hitler. That demeans you and the Jews / other people who suffered through that crap. Keep in mind a customer will rarely if ever apologize for their atrocious behavior towards some poor soul who is just doing their job. They should; who are we kidding, they won't. Perhaps this will allow you closure, if only imaginary, and not you you carrying it forwards with you.
Basically, yellow rooming is a safe way to yell back and get closure through apologizing, both the yelling and the apologies are imaginary. I can't stress the "strictly imaginary" part enough.
Without getting too deep into my personal history, I've was the victim of several ... very bad .... crimes as a child. Some of the men who did those things are in prison; they have been and will be there for quite some time. I will never get an apology from those men; they are monsters and locked up for a reason. For years, I blamed myself for what they did to me. Victims can easily get (understandably) fixated on terrible things that happened to them. For me at least, imagining them apologizing to me for it helped. Believe me, that was after a LOT of therapy as a kid.
Maybe imagining the people who upset / hurt you apologizing and recognizing you are a human being might help?
PLEASE NOTE: I am not a psychologist, nor a therapist. Please seek a mental health professional licensed in your area. Nothing can replace a trained therapist; one helped me. If you are dealing with mental illness, please consult a psychologist or therapist. Thank you.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on June 21, 2016, 08:20:40 pm
Post by: Truean on June 21, 2016, 08:51:36 pm
Do you ever get the feeling people are snapping at you demanding instant solutions to problems they couldn't solve themselves like ever?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Seriously though, Yes. Moreover our sorry instant gratification "society" makes this common. Generally, everyone needs to make their requests take more than a second, but not too long. Too quick sounds like a demand. Too long is annoying. Goldilocks that stuff. Basically, everyone needs to work on not dishing that out. When you're on the receiving end....
Remember, you're talking to the emotional equivalent of a drowning man. Oddly, this person may be rich or poor. Emotionally, they are bankrupt and they don't even know it.
(http://www.funnyalltime.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/I-SEE-DEAD-PEOPLE.jpg)
See that? Yeah. Not quite that bad, because there's not eating involved but yeah.... Le Clueless. Not you, them (once you see that invisible emotional ocean I've been going on about).
Is there a specific thing that's bugging you about this (other than the obvious)? Are you feeling angry, sad, scared, confused, startled, insulted, or something else when this happens generally? Are you having any physical aspects to this such as shortness of breath, upset stomach, or having to throw up? Do you find your shoulder muscles getting tense or your neck, jaw, etc?
Post by: TheBiggerFish on June 25, 2016, 10:47:53 pm
That meme is so appropriate.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on July 07, 2016, 08:34:47 pm
How do you keep your head so damn straight? I can't seem to keep my thoughts organized, especially when this shit his happening.
Post by: Truean on July 07, 2016, 09:17:15 pm
Smart phones may be a good analogy for younger people. Imagine virtual space:
5 Windowpanes (Icon / app screens) arranged in a row that is curved / bowed out, like a HUD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-up_display) overlaying whatever your eyes see. Think of the wallpaper screen on a smartphone, you swipe left or right to get to "nearby" menus. Look at the video from 11 to 15 seconds (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5UaZIwsZ4E) See how those menus are "next" to one another? Imagine being inside looking out of those. (http://www.johnsurd.com/wp-content/uploads/IMG_9339.jpg)
The 5 screens are numbered 1-5. 1 is far left. 2 Left. 3 Center. 4 Right. 5 Far Right. See the bowed curve in front of you superimposed over your vision? Consider these functions for the screens
1.) Emotional / Social / Conversational: Self emotional control, social behavioral requirements, what you're going to say next in conversation. Consideration.
2.) Informational: Data, information, tasks and lists. Plans and steps you plan to take, perhaps with contingencies when shit goes not as planned.
3.) Central: Basically a true HUD, with only small reminders popping up overlaying your vision: linking reminders from other screens....
4.) Location / Spacial: Maps. Visual 3rd person representations of the room/building/ area you are in. Spacial awareness. Radar.
5.) Auditory / Musical: Soundtrack. Music Video. Mood setting music. Could also be affirmations set to loop. Focuses you, etc. Sound may trigger memories also....
I find this a basic simplified way to organize some basic thoughts. It is similar to the idea of a memory palace.... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_of_loci) Except his is dynamic and focusing on attention / requiring attention to "run" the program in your head.
Note also that the screens interact.... The emotional is next to the informational. That's intentional. I switch focus between them, scrolling as required. Having two next to each other helps. I'm considering informational aspects next to conversational / social ones.... It helps remembering the name of somebody's dog or whatever when talking to them.... etc.
Example: Walking around doing anything. Far left screen (1) has emotional and social information on it, including facial expressions, not looking bored if possible, and keeping track of conversational undertones. Monitoring and modifying emotional feelings as best able to do so. Ideally, mentally calling bullshit on people who are stupid / being mean. Left screen (2) Has words and ideas on it including tasks / lists of things to do. Information appears here. Central screen (3) is largely clear / see through with occasional pop ups superimposed. Right screen (4) has maps on it perhaps zooming in or out quite a bit including to room level, knowing that door is close or far to where I am standing: spacial awareness, etc. Far Right screen (5) is playing the equivalent of music video; sometimes it can aid in the recall of memories, as music often can.
Somebody comes up to me being an asshole. I mentallly focus on that Far Left screen, focusing on emotional issues with that informational screen (Right) just next to it. If I've got the mental resources to parallel process, I'll fantasize about a better place. If not, stick to that.
Remember those lists I told you about? Those go on screen 2.... (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=157225.msg7012327#msg7012327):
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The information is dynamic and flexible. I have always learned spatially and by doing. This allows me a mental, spacial representation and way to put things into "their place." It's a version of doing things like this and it's a flexible enough concept that it can work in many ways and configurations. It lets me switch thinking modes quickly, and
This is an advanced technique and it may or may not be practical in your situation. Perfect? No. Practical for me? Yes. Would it work for you, perhaps, perhaps not. Difficult? Yes. Practical? Perhaps.
Anybody else have any thought organizing methods that might help?
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on July 23, 2016, 11:58:16 am
I still have issues with people just flat out NOT wanting to believe what I tell them like my boss not being there. I'd happily take a message and write the whole thing down or the points etc. It isn't like he's hiding somewhere. He's just not available and all I can do is leave a message. I even wrote it out right in front of the guy.... Still not happy. It's pretty blatantly obvious I'm not in charge here and the guy you want who is in charge, isn't. Gah.
Post by: Truean on July 23, 2016, 06:50:37 pm
All strife is from emotional imbalance and the consequences from it.
You must stick to your reasonable script, as they stick to their unreasonable one.
The boss is not in. He isn't; he isn't; he isn't. No matter how hard they deny the truth.
Not your fault he can't be everywhere, everytime, for everything. You can't say this, though it's true.
You are doing your job to the best of your abilities and of anyone in your situation.
This does not devalue you and your worth as a person.
The other person is desperately trying to manipulate a world they can't accept they simply don't control.
Their last ditch effort to control some part of the world around them is yelling at you. Sad really.
Consider perhaps another approach:
"Sir, I hear you saying your problem is X, Y, and Z.
The manager is the only person who can fix X, Y, and Z.
He isn't here right now, but I can give him a message to get back with you." ~ Perhaps something like this?
It might work. It might not. It's just another tool to perhaps add to the bag.
Some will be reasonable enough to understand it. Some just won't.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on July 28, 2016, 08:13:41 pm
I am not joking when I say I have begged them to stop. They won't and they'll just keep asking but really demanding to know why.......
Someone is begging you not to talk about something.... So keep it up and force them to hear it?
Why? Why would anyone anywhere do that ever???????
They would actually force somebody to deal with that instead of talk about almost anything else.
I want to scream. Dear god. Don't. Don't interrogate, just change subject.....
The other person doesn't want this...... Why continue.....
To flip the question around.... why not change the subject?
My guess? They don't give a damn if anyone else is upset, only if they get their way....
Post by: Truean on July 30, 2016, 09:45:53 am
Lots of people think they understand conversation; they don't. Humans are generally self centered; conversations are group focused.
Conversations are words said between people for enjoyment or information. If for enjoyment, talk about friendly topics nicely. If for information, then state the truth, perhaps softly (necessary news people don't want to hear).
Depending upon topic, however many don't understand casual conversations should be enjoyable by all, or at least most. There is a meta structure to good conversations on any topic, and sadly many don't see or understand it. It goes something like this:
1.) Brevity: Otherwise it's a long rant, and / or nobody else gets a turn. Swing turns back and forth.... Not excluding people, usually.
2.) Relevance: Related to brevity, this means staying on or related to topic instead of wildly swinging.
3.) Tolerable: At least.... Better if it's an enjoyable subject, but at least one that doesn't piss people off, usually.
4.) Tone: This is a very tough one. You have to Goldilocks this not too much and not too little, but just right. Too negative and it's complaining. Too positive and it's obnoxious.
Learn these and other conversational skills yourself if you don't know them or improve upon them. It helps.
That stated there are some conversational maneuvers that might be carefully used to help a bit: WARNING, this can backfire, risky.
Steering: Conversations are organic. Don't let people know you're steering, trying to change the subject of conversation from one you can't stand to one you can. Sadly, some people use this against you to keep talking about what you don't want to. They'll try redirecting your redirection back to their topic (the one you hate). Really, this is them being oblivious and failing to take the hint. The real irony is their implicit assumption you don't understand the situation.... ("I'm not talking about X...." No shit, I wish we were, because Y sucks).
This is actually incredibly hard to explain, much like riding a bike. I suppose you could outline the steps and the multiple things you need to do all at the same time: balance, forward motion, steering, etc. But without doing it, it's just very very difficult. Moreover, sticking with the metaphor, falling means scrapped knees and those suck (aka it can backfire).
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on August 15, 2016, 06:06:19 pm
That damn car was filthy when I got to it and a million times cleaner when i was done with it. No, it wasn't perfect, but nobody else was lining up to crawl all over the place and try to get down into every little bit of it. There was a dead mouse in the trunk. It took me hours and I was not dragging ass, and he wouldn't say I was.
Some of that shit was in there for 10 years. There are stains in this thing and scratches on the plastic that just aren't going to come out ever.
Why. Why does he have to throw that first part on there at all. Damn it nobody else is going to do this for him. Why be an ass? Why not just be happy the car is way cleaner than it was before. Do you know what it costs it get a car professionally detailed? For a car that hasn't been cleaned in 10 years and is disgusting? Yeah Couple hundred bucks.
Post by: Truean on August 28, 2016, 01:13:03 pm
Slowly, deliberately, focus on that breathing.
Your relative seems to have impossible expectations. They will not be met; relative will bitch. You didn't cause problem, but are blamed for it (wrongly). Understand; expect, and realize it isn't your fault. You are internalizing blame you don't deserve.
Eventually, work towards limiting interaction with relative, tolerate until then and after. Storming out never helps. Be not the tidal wave; be the receding tide. Work smarter; stabilize yourself. If finances or friendship constrain you, set goal of bolstering those. This costs time, time is paid in patience. Relative's flaw is lack of patience; do not inherit that vice. Patience is a virtue.
Are you enabling relative? Is relative's behavior to you worse than any other person? If so, then you are unlikely to change relative. Your remedy is increasing foundation for independence (financial, friendship, etc) and gradual limitation of interaction. Also, increasing acceptable tolerances you can take.
Anger and complaining are signs of weakness, lack of power and flailing helplessly in the storm. Is that more effective, or is simple effort and accomplishment of goals?
Believe me; I know it is hard. It is likely you are unfairly treated badly at present. Past is past; present is present. Only the fortunate and foresighted among us may influence the future.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on September 05, 2016, 02:13:40 pm
I've got a real problem with motivation when I know I'm going to get yelled at or at least not appreciated. Like, not appreciated is the best result I can ask for. That's not good. I don't get stuff done when I'd like to get it done. Really though, it does suck when people seem to always be asking "What are you doing?" I lose my whole train of thought. I knew what I was doing and the stuff I had to do next but the interruption threw me right off. Same deal with people who seems to backseat drive or hang over your shoulder like that will somehow make me work faster or better. Usually I get all self conscious with crap like that happening. I just feel their eyes staring into me or whatever I'm working on. God, it just sucks.
All of that, plus the other stuff adds up to me being sort of afraid to do anything, because jesus, why bother if I'm just gonna get told nothing is ever good enough? Or at best I don't get any appreciation for it. Just being nice to me for a minute would be good, or at least a lot better than nothing.
This all adds up to me having a lot of stuff to do and not having it done. Whole thing snowballs and I'm pretty sure my life would better off if I did SOMETHING instead of nothing, but I'm just stopped by a constant voice of external criticism that has moved internal. Help?
Post by: Truean on September 06, 2016, 07:00:02 pm
This is part of swimming in that emotional ocean. Other people are often fools. They should know looking over a shoulder doesn't make anyone work faster. It freaks people out; this is their weakness.
Are you better swimming than drowning? All those tasks are strokes for the swimmer. Give yourself credit for swimming and try to avoid negative interpretations of your actions when you accomplish something (i.e. "that's stupid," or "there's no point"). Instead consciously give yourself credit for getting X done. Do this repeatedly to yourself and say "I won't have to worry about [consequences] as much because X is done."
People are going to be stupid and sometimes they don't even mean it. The best way I've found is to expect it. I do hope this helps.
Post by: Ghills on September 07, 2016, 02:23:47 pm
OK.
I've got a real problem with motivation when I know I'm going to get yelled at or at least not appreciated. Like, not appreciated is the best result I can ask for. That's not good. I don't get stuff done when I'd like to get it done. Really though, it does suck when people seem to always be asking "What are you doing?" I lose my whole train of thought. I knew what I was doing and the stuff I had to do next but the interruption threw me right off. Same deal with people who seems to backseat drive or hang over your shoulder like that will somehow make me work faster or better. Usually I get all self conscious with crap like that happening. I just feel their eyes staring into me or whatever I'm working on. God, it just sucks.
All of that, plus the other stuff adds up to me being sort of afraid to do anything, because jesus, why bother if I'm just gonna get told nothing is ever good enough? Or at best I don't get any appreciation for it. Just being nice to me for a minute would be good, or at least a lot better than nothing.
This all adds up to me having a lot of stuff to do and not having it done. Whole thing snowballs and I'm pretty sure my life would better off if I did SOMETHING instead of nothing, but I'm just stopped by a constant voice of external criticism that has moved internal. Help?
You don't need to do things for people. Someone wants you to clean their nasty car for free? Or anything else difficult, dirty and they really should pay someone? Screw them.
NO ONE ELSE HAS A RIGHT TO YOU. If you don't want to do things for people, you are perfectly reasonable in refusing and ignoring their hints.
"I'm sorry, I'm busy with {insert random X}." if they ask you
"I hope you can find someone to do it!" and exit the conversation (going to the bathroom is a great way to do this) if they start complaining about something and dropping hints.
It really does suck when people are distracting you. Is there anywhere you can go with a locked door that will let you focus?
Post by: Truean on September 12, 2016, 09:37:43 pm
Agreed, however the difference between "should" and "is" is often vast.
Please do not quote
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on September 25, 2016, 10:26:54 am
Post by: Truean on September 26, 2016, 07:47:23 pm
All is Zen.
Though regrettable, through any trial, turbulence, tribulation, or torment, your soul is unsinkable. During the struggle, they will pull us down. Rise.
The mind is the sanctum.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on October 01, 2016, 11:58:47 am
Still not sure what to do about never seeming to meet people's expectations though. Seems like I'm being set up to fail, because they know I can't manage this crap. Especially not with all the restrictions and no resources I'm under. Or it's just not my fault, because shit happens and there's not a whole lot anybody can do about it. People seem to complain whenever things don't go perfectly. That shouldn't be a surprise, because shit happens.
It's like everyone else's job seems like it's to bitch to get what they want and mind is to somehow deliver the impossible. WTF.
Post by: x2yzh9 on October 01, 2016, 05:37:35 pm
ThanksWell I'm not sure how to approach that besides saying get some rest, eat good food(assuming you aren't) and just relay the message to people that one person can't do everything. Personally for me(and this is just me) I like to sit in the direct sunlight, listen to some music, smoke a cigarette(Yes, I know, I should stop smoking), and relax. Just my friendly input there. Feel free to ask for elaboration. Stress can take a toll on your body and when I went through a recent major life event(I would rather not elaborate unless through PMs) I had to go to the hospital because I was so unbelievably stressed, I just couldn't consciously or subconsciously realize it. So before you hit that point, take a break fam.
Still not sure what to do about never seeming to meet people's expectations though. Seems like I'm being set up to fail, because they know I can't manage this crap. Especially not with all the restrictions and no resources I'm under. Or it's just not my fault, because shit happens and there's not a whole lot anybody can do about it. People seem to complain whenever things don't go perfectly. That shouldn't be a surprise, because shit happens.
It's like everyone else's job seems like it's to bitch to get what they want and mind is to somehow deliver the impossible. WTF.
P.S. I use the term fam as a term of endearment between my close circle and I.
Post by: Infinityforce on October 01, 2016, 09:12:02 pm
Post by: Truean on October 02, 2016, 01:25:24 pm
We mistake expectations for absolutes. Reality is real, and rarely renegotiates. Unmet, unreasonable expectations cause unrest: with us and others:
"Why isn't...?"
"It's supposed to be ...."
"I can't believe that ...."
"Can't you just ...?"
"Everyone else ...."
"I just want ...."
Listen to what they're not saying: How. They're defaulting on thinking and demanding you figure out how....
Someone has an unfulfilled need. They want it fulfilled, but don't know how. If they did, then they'd do it. See the unmet, unbalanced cause of unrest?
They feel the imbalance, but can't face it's cause: the mirror. Recoiling from reflection, they redirect the blame. Read those little quotes, and fill anything after them. Those are demands, made of someone else. It is bitching, and complaining. They aren't fighting about what to do, but rather who to blame.... Anyone, except themselves....
The problem is authority: its practical ramifications. It is very dangerous to be right when the established authority is wrong. Though sometimes wrong, authority punishes non compliance. Correct or not, compliance is authority's goal, punishment its weapon for non compliance....
See the trap? If you buck authority, it bucks back: undesirable. If you engage, your time, energy, effort, and sanity is wasted, as is theirs. It is a vicious cycle. Break it. The primitive hind-brain falsely believes the cycle's actions will sooth its emotional discomfort. It won't; rather, it causes and magnifies the problem. It is the problem: the wave generator, in the ocean of emotions....
That mental sting you feel from the cold waves quoted above, learn to tolerate it when you must. It is danger and distraction from the real issues: the things that may improve your situation, or at least mitigate the damage. It is the rip current (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rip_current), and you will exhaust yourself to drowning if you fight against it.
Tread water and know you are not the cause of the current, or here, their unreasonable demands. Stay afloat and rise. Keep your head about you and above water. Your head will save you. Realize the current for what it is, and what it wants: to pull you out to sea, exhaust you from struggle, and drown you. They want you to internalize the blame and the struggle. Don't. Tred water, swim your own mental course, out of the rip current.
You will not swim like an Olympic medalist in a riptide. You will not meet all their expectations against their current. Tred water, do the best you can. Do what you must. What else could you do? By definition, nothing.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on October 08, 2016, 08:22:54 am
How to deal?
Post by: Truean on October 08, 2016, 10:18:53 am
You must work to survive; you must do this task to work. So, do the task, unless it is immoral, illegal, or unethical. While unpleasant and likely unsuccessful, this (foolishly designed) task is none of these three. Do what you must while seeking other income. Incredibly unfortunate and unfair but the only real choice you have. Your other options, complaining, refusing, quitting will not end as well for you. Avoid emotional reactions, as they will not lead to better results. Mentally walk yourself through what you think would happen if you complain, refuse, or quit; not good, huh? Do the task most likely to end up better for you: do the task, and seek other employment.
I know; it's a sucky choice. As the military says, "Embrace the suck." (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=embrace%20the%20suck) Again, unfair, unwise, but unavoidable.
When embracing the suck, apply the physical tasks you must, but don't forget the mental ones either. All the things we talked about with perception, understanding and re-framing. Work up the chain in your mind. Know that you are not bad for not being a superstar at this ... not so well thought out ... task. Your boss is probably being pressured himself (or herself) by corporate just as, if not more unreasonably. Corporate is probably being pressured by executives, who are being pressured by stockholders / owners. It's all a stupid chain of command with crap rolling downhill, and doesn't reflect upon you personally.
This is authority thinking it knows what the hell it is doing. It doesn't. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes) There is not a thing to be done about it either. The tailors / con artists tell the emperor his new set of clothes can only be seen by the truly intelligent, except there actually are no clothes. The emperor, not wanting to think of himself as anything but truly intelligent, says he sees the clothes (which aren't there at all). He then parades through the streets buck naked, while acting as though he has the best clothes ever.... The guards, seeing this as a problem, tell the peasants about the whole "you can only see the clothes if you're truly intelligent thing...." So, either the peasants, like their emperor, pretend to see the clothes rather than "admit they're stupid" or know better but still won't say anything because the emperor can have them killed or imprisoned.... It's a lose lose situation.
The only one who manages to tell the emperor he has no clothes is a very small child, not because the kid is honest, but because even the emperor won't execute a toddler for that. Anybody else would be justifiably terrified. After all, this is a ruler so nuts he's parading naked in the streets while pretending to be fully clothed.... Do you wanna risk your life on the assumption he's sane and reasonable? I sure don't and won't. I might start looking for a new kingdom to live in or something though, because who knows what's next with this guy running the show? Yeah, that's why you keep quiet and look elsewhere. Don't blame the guards or anyone else, or wonder why. That won't help.
Mentally, remember you're not the moron who thinks they're wearing clothes despite feeling a draft from nudity. Ain't crap you can do about it.
Does that help? I hope so. Try this, refer back to some of the things I've said here and see if you can plug the circumstances you've listed, into some of the processes I've outlined. These are some examples, and include but do not complete the picture:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=157225.15
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=157225.30
Consider it an exercise or homework. I'll help you through it if you wanna. Come on class, who has
Read; review; reapply; rise.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on October 09, 2016, 10:21:13 am
Can you go into some detail on how to keep focused on a script while kinda imagining you're somewhere else please? You probably know, but it's a pain trying to do that while you're getting screamed at.
I'm trying to come up with like a "happy place" or whatever you call it. You mention like a marble place where you're getting a massage or something. I'm not really sure how you get there mentally but that sounds a hell of a lot nicer than being screamed at by some lady I never did anything bad to and am trying to help. Don't know if it's the "happy place" for me, but yeah.
Trying to get the perspective and seeing it that way. It's rough. My head keeps focusing on me getting screamed at and that clogs up anything like me zoning out or focusing on something else. I think that's what the person screaming at me wants.
That's kinda what's keeping me from using your system or however you want to call it. Any ideas, please?
Post by: Truean on October 16, 2016, 10:09:36 am
Save attention to have it when needed. In bed at night, meditate and stockpile attention; it helps sleep. Avoid spending on trivial things. Ignore triviality; identify importance and invest in that. Distinguish based on goals, outcomes, risks, etc, rather than emotion.
Each instant insists on attention; only you determine if these demands are met and how much of that demand is met.
The screaming customer demands your attention, all of it. Ask yourself, are you required to give all of it? What MUST you do and what happens if you don't. You must listen, answer, and perhaps solve complaints. Boil this to the essentials, as I do. Most people say a great, meaningless deal of words:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Say little; mean much. People will listen. Some will never understand this. Boil down their verbose complaints to the point. It will cost you less attention this way. By saving attention, you have more to spend and divide on other tasks, like fantasizing or visiting a happy place.
Do you see?
1.) Save attention to have it.
2.) Spend attention only when needed.
3.) Separate demanded from desired & required attention expenses.
4.) Split stockpiled attention between tasks.
If you wish, we can go over that last one more, but all the rest was required to get there. Otherwise, it would've been an unexplained statement and would've been turning your question into a command with no real step by step answer. That would've been unhelpful. Save. Spend. Separate. Split. For starters.... You must have attention to pay attention. Step One, save your attention.
Post by: wierd on October 16, 2016, 03:03:22 pm
When I get the 'joy' of being exposed to a shrieker, I imagine them shrieking so hard, and so long that they start to sound like a chipmunk. Usually, such people end up shrieking like this because they themselves focus too much attention on problems, and run out of budgeted resources. (see the concept Truean hinted at above).
They need this petty thing they are trying to buy at less than list price, because it is the only way they can get it while still being in-budget for the grand hoodiedoo they have planned for their dear little Timmy's soccer game, because they decided that this was their week to host the event, and it needs to be more special than when the other parents hosted it, and blah blah blah.
They have focused their attention on every tiny minute detail of this grand master plan of theirs, that they have no attention span left to foresee or deal with problems that might pop up (because they arent nearly so good at planning as they think they are, because they planned their grand event without any fallback room-- again, this is because of the attention deficit they are suffering from micromanagement. They only see the prize they want, not the realities of the road to get there. Only the idealized one where everything happens perfectly.)
So, when (as it is inevitable) things go a little sideways, they are incapable of coping with it mentally, and go bananas.
I find this amusing. Very very amusing. The more they scream, throw things, demand to see the manager, and make a general ass of themselves, the more I smile and laugh my ass off inside.
Remember: It is impossible for a perfect fantasy to come to fruition, especially on a shoestring budget. People are imperfect, the results of hard work are imperfect. They compound to destroy any vision of a perfect event. The punch might be a little too sour-- the bunting is crooked-- there arent enough chocolates out because one of the boxes got mooshed in shipping-- whatever. Because they have all their energy tied up in this event, even the slightest flaw in presentation is seriously destructive to them, and it is all because they are desperately trying to seek outside reinforcement of their self worth. "I gave my daughter the BEST wedding party!", or "I am the greatest mom ever for pulling off this after game event!" or any other reason.
This ties in with the "YOU MUST SIGN UP PEOPLE ON OUR CREDIT CARDS OR ELSE!!" madness two posts up as well. A middle manager wants to show how they are the bestest middle manager ever, by increasing profits in an impossible manner, by pulling off an impossible stunt-- Never mind the harsh realities this causes, A-La Wells Fargo.
As truean rightly points out, these people are quite mad, and quite conceited. The "clothing" they insist is there, is the guarantee of success, and all the prestige and fame that goes with it. They bet everything on it happening, and then they micromanage to DEATH trying to make it happen, when the real world has this way of preventing the perfect outcome they require.
And, when it does not happen perfectly-- they dont have any mental resources left over to deal with that reality, and they literally explode in a hissy fit.
There are other jobs. They may not be glamorous, or even pay well, but there are other jobs out there. (As an example, last year I found myself in a situation where I was forced to quit a job suddenly. Employment prospects were bad for me that year, so I elected to look outside the box. There are certain vocations that are literally shitty (as in, literal shit is involved), but are always in demand, like healthcare. It costs 600$ for the vocational training and state certification to become a CNA, and there are never enough of those in the workforce. So, despite being a trained network admin, and CNC programmer as my primary vocation, I did exactly that. Last year I worked in a nursing home taking care of old people. They pay is terrible, but it is a bullwark against the mental horror of being fired from a better job. I can always go back to helping the elderly if push comes to shove. There *IS* work waiting for me. About 6 months ago I got a break, and am now doing CNC programming again as a contractor. Good times, but getting that CNA kept the lights on for a full year. Good investment.) Once free from that nagging self-doubt about how this person can harm you, you can smile, and ask most pleasantly if they would like to talk to your manager. It becomes like teasing a screaming kid that isn't yours, asking if they would like to tell their mommy all about it. This is even better when your manager is one of the "No clothes" types.
So, inwardly, when I see that type of crap happen, I smile. It fills me with sadistic pleasure to know that they are only hurting themselves by their bad time and resource management, and further, I know there is not a damn thing I can do for them except NOT cushion their fall when it all comes down around them. You cannot help somebody that wont help themselves, and placating their fantasies only makes them worse, not better. I actually help them the best I am able, by allowing life to demonstrate their foolishness for them.
Again, look at Wells Fargo-- They did the "8 is GREAT!" bullshit, where they did everything imaginable to pressure their staff to sign their patrons up for at least 8 financial services, when the industry average is 2 to 3. When this insane pressure to produce the impossible (you cannot influence market demand, by issuing ultimatums, no matter how important you think you are.) resulted in their workers engaging in illegal signups without customer approval, just to keep their jobs, it first caused people to attempt whistle blowing (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-wells-fargo-accounts-whistleblower-idUSKCN12D2M0), (which of course failed, because the emperor was SURE his new clothes were real), and then finally, the malfeasance was so apparent that federal regulators got involved, and issued some very harsh penalties (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/09/business/dealbook/wells-fargo-fined-for-years-of-harm-to-customers.html?_r=0) including clawbacks of compensation for the CEO and community banking manager (http://www.wsj.com/articles/wells-fargo-board-actively-considering-executive-clawbacks-1474985652), who were driving the whole ordeal.
The reality, is that if Wells Fargo had simply FAILED to reach target goals, when it was only 4 or 5 services per customer, they would never have been involved in so much fraud, and this whole thing would not have blown up the way it did. Allowing their grand master-plan to fail, due to opposition with reality, is really the best way to help them. In fact, the sooner they fail, the better for everyone. In fact, if it fails before it can make any profit for them at all, the better as an educational aide it is. It will better encourage them to avoid that kind of thinking in the future.
Take comfort in the knowledge that there are ALWAYS options, even if they are unpleasant. Safe in that knowledge, see screaming patrons and demanding bosses for what they really are, and be quite happy to let them fail. Do your job the legal way, and dont encourage failure through sabotage-- but allow it to fail naturally. If they fire you, or they refuse to give you hours, seek alternatives to their employment, even if those alternatives are unpleasant.
Once you do, instead of the raging dragon in the corporate office, they turn into a screaming 2 year old demanding a diet of straight cookies and icecream.
It is very funny watching them give themselves a tummy ache.
Post by: Truean on October 21, 2016, 07:13:05 pm
Actually, wierd is a lot closer than most people will ever get based upon the post above this one. I take a different approach but who knows. Maybe his will work better for you. I'm not perfect and sometimes the human urge to see people who hurt me get screwed over will surface, but I try not to let that happen, because I just see no value in it.
It's like the people who did bad things to me who went to prison. I could say "yeah, they're probably getting all beaten up and far worse in prison." The problem there is that's still a 0 sum game and nobody wins. Sure, I don't want them running around doing stuff to other people, but them getting screwed doesn't make me any less screwed over, does it?
It's the whole thing about an eye for an eye leaving us all blind. If the guy who messed up my life gets raped in prison, that doesn't make me any less raped for what he did to me as a kid. It still happened and that sucks. Now instead of one person being abused, we have two people. The only ... "thing" that wins is [ahem] abuse [ahem]. So we get tricked into thinking there's this score and now it's even rapist: 1, society 1, when he gets thrown in a terrible prison. What's really happening is more like rapist: 0, society: 0, rape: 2. You see that? Nobody wins and it's just more bad things. It isn't like I'm ever going to get any restitution from that jerk and him getting messed up won't make me any less messed up or take away what he did. .
All I can really do is try to work with what I have and make the best of that. At least that's my take. Hard? Yes. Any better option? Not that I can see, no.
Please do not quote
Post by: wierd on October 21, 2016, 08:30:08 pm
I have just learned that tough love is a very effective teaching aide for those who are averse to the realities of the world.
Tough love is letting that person get burned by the natural consequences of their actions. It is not seeking punishment for percieved wrongs. A kid refuses to listen about gorging on candy, let them get the tummy ache. It is not the same as forcing them to eat the candy.
The child is not taught the life lesson by that latter-- that it learns only from the former.
I am a bit of a bad man, because I do admit to getting a naughty satisfaction from seeing people suffer from such consequences, but I am not malicious or callous. There are people who just do not know better, and find they cannot find the right path on their own even when looking, desperately. Such people want help, but get served a steaming pile instead. Those I will go out of my way for. The screaming "master planners" though? Not so much. Those I step aside for, to watch walk off the cliff.
Post by: Truean on October 23, 2016, 11:23:05 am
Simple respectful difference of opinion. I ignore, and live in a better fantasy. You embrace and enjoy watching just deserts being served. Pros and cons to both.
I know the world is a crapsack, in vivid detail. Thinking on that isn't productive for me; thinking around it is. Put it this way, repeatedly telling yourself, "it's ok" means it isn't and there's a reason repeat reassurance is required. This survival technique is useful, regardless of truth.
I sense you also know this, and are somewhat a connoisseur, appreciating the subtleties without causing them. It's the same idea behind the theory of capitalism: turning vice to virtue, namely greed. Here, it's tragedy turned to toleration of it. It simply doesn't work so well for me.
Rather, I assume things will go wrong at, in, or for the worst time, way, reason, and / or place. They do. Others complain, I try not to, but rather to compensate. My life had numerous setbacks I could've never anticipated, prepared for, or prevented. They were all incredibly unfair, as a rule. I have cried about them, a lot; it didn't help. I saw many who causes these events be punished and imprisoned. Oddly, that didn't help much either at least not psychologically and emotionally.
Would seeing the angry, ranting, cursing, screaming, unreasonable, and who are we kidding, terrible customer getting hit by a bus help the poor clerk who was forced to deal with their abuse? I personally don't think so but what do I know?
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on November 19, 2016, 10:42:47 am
"Did you forget your shop keys this morning because there was a [insert horrible list of crap I just don't care about and basically is them looking for somebody to blame].
I tried to answer this person with "No." and digging my shop keys out of my pocket to show them. I had to up the volume and drag out the "o" on the "no" because they wouldn't shut the fuck up and let me answer, either verbally or practically by showing them I still had my keys. Long story short, they wouldn't shut up and allow me to answer (continuing to implicitly blame me in the face of objective proof. Issue was that the keys were lost and bad things happened cause of it. I still have my keys so it wasn't me).
Basically I say "Nooooooo"
I get told I have an "attitude."
I can't zone out during this and I'm trapped. If I don't immediately answer, then I'm "holding back and not answering a 'simple question' that should be easy and so I must be hiding something...." BUT I can't answer because the moron won't stop talking long enough for me to answer. When I try to answer anyhow, then I'm interrupting him and giving him "attitude" for answering a question he just asked....
Can't answer question immediately without talking over him. Can't talk over him or I "have an attitude." Can't delay answering question until he stops talking or I'm "not being cooperative."
There are three ways this goes and I loose on all of them, even though I can absolutely prove I didn't do anything wrong.
WTF do I do?
Post by: wierd on November 19, 2016, 01:05:38 pm
When they are done, make a quip about the potential intruder being very polite by returning your keys to exactly where you left them when you went to bed, then hold up the keys.
Suggest that maybe somebody else neglected their keys, or perhaps the door is not locking properly.
Post by: Truean on November 27, 2016, 12:35:20 pm
FYI, everyone's stupid because they can't handle emotions. (See every post I've made in this thread). They're fighting over blame instead of solutions. Guess what they end up with, and what they don't end up with....
Keys have nothing to do with it. The guy is scared, would laugh and maybe get violent if anyone said that, and won't admit it to himself. Imagine you manage some place and it got ... broken into? ... because somebody left it unlocked. That looks really bad to whoever is the manager's boss (owner? district manager? I dunno?). The manager's immediate thought process can be summed up as "Oh, shit!" Somebody is going to be blamed for this mess, and everyone's praying it isn't them.
Now, a smart manager (don't hold your breath) would simply determine a what happened, how to keep it from happening again, submit an insurance report, privately sit the employee down for a chat, and move on.... That assumes it was an accident and the employee wasn't the thief or in cahoots with thieves. Then you'd call the cops and let them deal with it. Notice what's missing there? Drama.
Drama lets people get their insane emotions out and dealt with, importantly without imagining they personally could've been partially to blame (that's each and every one of us, by the way). Everyone's obsessed with "Should" or "Shouldn't."
Should doesn't happen; shit happens.
It's all in how it's dealt with, rather than bitching about what "should" or "shouldn't" happen. That's the way societies move forward. It's why ours doesn't. Blame has never solved anything, but it sure does feel good (as long as we're not the ones being blamed). We punish the blamed and don't solve ... anything.
In the real world, nobody can handle anything they don't like. Critical thinking is dead or dying and has been replaced with confirmation bias. That last sentence is absolutely huge, and I can't say that enough. It's an outgrowth of denial. People like things that confirm what they want to believe and don't like things that don't confirm what they want to believe. Truth, practicality, reasonableness, etc, simply doesn't enter into their thinking. Both sides of the 2016 election did this. Businesses do this. People do this. Everybody....
That's why people are going to talk over you no matter what. Hell, they did and do it to me, even though I'm 1000% right on things. I tell them 2+2=4, and they hate me for it. They really, really badly need it to equal 5, because if it doesn't, then they're totally and absolutely screwed beyond belief. They can't face the truth and they will believe anyone who will even lie to them that what they want is possible. They'll hire somebody who tells them it equals 5, when they know damn good and well 2+2=4.... "The customer is always right." Nope, but if you say that, they'll come after you with a vengeance.
In your case, you can prove you didn't forget your keys. Manager is in freak out mode, because he owes somebody an answer he doesn't know how to provide. He's hoping it's something easily explainable that doesn't make him look bad. If it isn't, then he's screwed. You have to outwardly take the BS abuse while inwardly knowing you didn't do anything wrong. You can prove it. Do so once he's gotten his anger out, because that's what he's really doing "venting." There's no better option. Fair? Nope. Again, no better option. This is loss mitigation.
This is that retreating into your mind and keeping a bullet point list of things to bring up .... thing I was talking about. Let him bitch, because who are we kidding, he's going to.... People think blaming solves problems, so they blame. It doesn't; nothing gets solved.
For what it's worth, and I realize it's not much, it is unfortunate that our world puts people like your (and many other peoples') boss(es) in charge. There's not a whole lot we can even really do about it. Until and unless we somehow radically alter our society where people don't need their jobs as much (totally), then I'm afraid the best I can offer is a temporary rest inside your own headspace. It's what I do when I can. I confess that I'm not perfect with it as much as I'd like to be, but it's better than booze or drugs or something else bad.
People never listen to what's being said to them. Instead of considering what's being said, they immediately think about what they're going to say back (usually shooting down whatever's being said unless they like it a lot). That is, they're not listening, they're planning a counter.... People end up talking past each other or over each other, etc.
Does that help at all when addressing your question about what to do when people talk over you while you're trying to answer their question?
Grin and bear it; keep your answer in the back of your mind; somewhat retreat into headspace; present answer. Realize internally (without showing it) that this is their damn problem and they are trying to make you feel bad over it.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on December 01, 2016, 07:23:53 pm
Work is kinda set up like an assembly line. I get work after somebody else is done doing what they do with it. Somebody else takes what I do and then they do their work on that. It's in stages. The person before me screwed up, so they had to take things I was supposed to work on back to fix it. This left me with nothing to do.
I asked for stuff to do from somebody, they said yes and gave me stuff. I told my supervisor, and he said it was cool.
Come to find out, people seem to be grumbling about what I did. The details are hard to get, but people are bitching in the background. Now I got assigned shitty tasks coincidentally the same day this happened.... God damn it; I just wanted to be valuable and have a better shot at keeping my job. I purposefully try NOT to make anybody else look bad. I do pretty much whatever the hell people want at work how they want it. Just let me know. Why and how the hell are people pissed at me?
WTF?
Post by: wierd on December 01, 2016, 09:20:39 pm
nobody wants to deal with EXTRA shit.
consider:
you had to take something back upstream in the assembly process. Somebody who felt they had completed thier task just had that task returned to them with a "do this the right way" implication, (suggesting they are lazy, incompetent, inattentive, whatever), and now must, in addition to the nw work coming down the line, find some way to squeeze out time to fix the product that is not ready for downstream processing at their station, and NOT fall behind schedule.
then there is the guy who just returned the product upstream, asking for something else to do.
it is pretty easy to see how other people would get pissy about seeing it.
spilled miilk, and water under bridges aside, here is how I would have approached it.
First, I would alert my foreman that an upstream defect has been found in the product, and that I am going to try and get it addressed. He should be down with that.
I would then have walked up the line, and asked the uptream station if they were aware of this defect, and how it can be addressed discretely. they are intimately familiar with that stage of production and likely will have an answer for you. ask them to watch out for the defect and see if they can keep it from coming downstream anymore, while you try to address the defect at your station. The goal is to keep the line running smoothly with good product moving downstream. If you both can shoulder the burden of the defect and mitigate it on the line, great. Once you have succeeded in correcting the defect, alert the foreman that the issue has been addressed, and to please validate your break/fix solution. (we sell good product, we dont hide defective product.) If your fix is accepted, you have saved part of an order through effective teamwork. Your foreman will likely ask each of you to describe how the defect happened, and how you adressed it, so that official process can either remove the recurring risk of the defect, or give an official method of addressing the defect should it happen to avoid jeapordizing the line.
Post by: tonnot98 on December 02, 2016, 02:35:12 pm
Post by: Truean on December 04, 2016, 10:58:11 am
I advised lots of companies on production bottlenecks. "Margins" help, and JIT (Just In Time) doesn't. JIT is running bare bones, basically no inventory and on a strict "as needed" basis. It doesn't allow for any problems, "no insurance policy." JIT material shortages are dangerous as Hell, til you get more. This "cheaper" method is immensely popular in business. It's immeasurably stupid, so of course they do it. It has good portions, like 5S and ISO 9000, but yeah....
Sounds like JIT is what screwed you over. You ran out of stuff to do, decently asked for more, and inadvertently made somebody else look bad. The focus is now on the problem.... The blame culture wants "accountability" which is sacrificial victims. Everybody's trying not to be that. Some manager probably asked or thought "why don't you have anything to do?" WHO CARES? Just give the guy more, would be the most efficient response, because somebody is trying to do good things.... That won't happen. The system is stupid and doesn't want to acknowledge the inevitable failures that just happen not matter what. "To err is human." (Machines screw up too). "Shit happens."
So what do you do in this imperfect system? Roll with it as best you can. Wierd had a decent solution. Actually, it depends on the workplace. Most of the established ones have workarounds for stupid managers.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jdQqjcsfC8) There are actual positions of power with titles and official authority, and then there are unofficial people with unofficial power doing things in the background and working around the stupids (unless they end up being the stupids, which is problematic). Nobody will back the unofficial people if shit hits the fan, and those people have weathered the storm enough to know how to deal when it all goes sideways. These are the crafty veterans who knows how shit really goes down, careful, that doesn't mean they won't throw you under the bus to save themselves. That said, it's nice to see how the guy who has been working there for 15 years has dealt with these problems.... I'm imagining you're fairly new at your workplace?
I've sometimes had success with putting into place contingency plans on production lines (physical or mental) where they put procedures in place for just such an occasion. Either they have a reserve of material (blasphemy by JIT standards) or they do a "contribution." That way everyone gives like, one thing for the out of material guy to work on, so production doesn't suffer. After that, they slowly work everyone's workflow back up to normal. Some businesses will do it and others won't. I'd be very careful discussing any of this with your boss, because, having never met him or her, I don't know how they'd react to it (maybe badly).
This is another reason why the social aspect of work is so important. That way, you can chit chat with people to see how they deal with bad shit and how others have coped. It is a very fact, person, situation, location, and administration dependent thing.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on December 05, 2016, 07:42:09 pm
Sometimes I just totally want to but can't.
Post by: Truean on December 05, 2016, 08:48:03 pm
Not entirely sure what you're asking for.
Post by: wierd on December 05, 2016, 09:54:54 pm
Relaxing hobbies help. Things that shut off the brain, but produce something you can be proud of. I picked up crochet and knit for that very reason. All muscle memory, brain can turn off. Produces neat things afterward.
You need to find your own outlet though, robot. Every person is different.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on December 06, 2016, 07:03:40 pm
But also like, how the hell aren't you corrupt when everyone else is?
Half the shit I've read here about Truean says we're dealing with somebody who knows all the ins and outs of lots of shit.
Why is everyone else getting rich off fucking things up but not Truean?
How do you just suck all that shit up and not do something back?
Post by: wierd on December 06, 2016, 08:41:16 pm
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on December 10, 2016, 12:03:10 pm
Post by: Truean on December 10, 2016, 04:05:10 pm
Why ask why? What would anyone gain.... (No question mark). To corrupt their world, I'd have to touch it. No.
People are bastards (Don't tell me it's an over-generalization). I can't / won't deal with them in real life without playing their delusions, so I escape into fantasy. Being corrupt would require dealing with their poisoned reality, and I don't want to..... I could outmaneuver all of them, play their games and "win," while losing what little of myself I have. No. Nothing to gain, not really.
Helped everyone; everyone disbelieved. Truth prevailed, but didn't save me. I found and condemned the actually guilty, to prison. Their disbelief, their delusion condemned me, all the same. I don't care anymore; I'm dead inside. It's the only way I survive. I was thrown out of society, because I was gay or whatever I am, and people wouldn't believe those in power were corrupt. They've proven unworthy of any part of me. I could save them or condemn them. I won't do either.
Oddly, many believe my carefully chosen words are missing something. So, they try to "explain" or "educate" me. No. It's more people manipulating me. I do what I have to and what I'm forced to. I'd be just fine in solitary confinement; to really punish me, put me in the general population. Hell is other people.
Logic, reason, and rationality, don't sway people. They want, wish, and whine, while wondering why worlds wither. Yes, keep saying "I'm just asking," while true but undesirable answers are presented.... Don't care. Then they get mad at me for not making their delusions real. Humanity is insane; thus I am a misanthrope.
Corrupt them? I don't care about them. Not anymore. Good side? Bad side? They're all bad. They preach the doomed impotence of logic, the failure of virtue, and the uselessness of rationality? Witness the full logical result of those sermonized theories.
Please don't quote:
Post by: Tiruin on December 11, 2016, 12:32:22 am
Tru, please do not conflict the general populace with what you have been exposed to, nor let the idea justify your own beliefs because of what certain people have done, regardless of their position in power. While you believe those things, along with yourself being a 'misanthrope', that's a temporary state of mind reinforced over a period of time. In trying to give advice to others; work with them here, because cynicism does not define others' worth. A great many people are cynical; it's a learned response to what their general, consistent environment was, but the only one in full control within anyone's reach is themselves.
And I'd not like to see people generalizing others when in specifics they're focusing on a certain group which is difficult to isolate from the general populace. Focus on the behavior, the traits, the characteristics. But not people, because you'll end up conflicting your own perception and causing a cognitive pseudoloop of how you'll think about people, instead of the behavior or otherwise that made you feel that way towards them. Ideas sway people; culture sways people; familiarity does the same. Logic, reason, and rationality all fall under ideas; how they're presented--and these in a way may be presented subjectively, given the communication of one to another, as at times others' ideas may not be logical to us but reasonable to them because they've a way to make sense about it (even if this sense isn't strongly cultivated and more on what they've learned to believe).
Taken from experience and words from many folks in the field: Families, friends, and other social groups affect how people think, feel, and act, but individuals as people are all social in nature. These differences between individuals and between groups reflect differences in people’s levels of differentiation of self. A person’s 'self' is also developed parallel to their locus of control, or how much you feel in control of what you think at the moment--built up over time alongside the experiences one has; initially during development (eg when you're unfamiliar with the culture/environment or the surroundings are very consistent) the more impact others may have on your functioning and the more one may try to control, actively or passively, what goes around them. In the lack of these, there's less openness to communication because the mode of control feels broken with others. The basic building blocks of that self are inborn, but one’s relationships during early years of life (childhood, adolescence, and young adulthood) are environmental affectors of that development; the environment that one adapts to or tries to face. Young adulthood is generally where one establishes the sense of themselves/their 'self', and this level of “self” rarely changes unless a person makes a structured and long-term effort to change it. Which goes with experience, persistence, and cognitive willpower.
If you feel that beginning to generalize people is something that you can do, it'll affect your perception, and you work with your perception to react and adapt to your environment; if you feel this may be lacking or causing you more frustration or any negative feeling: Add more ideas to it, not necessarily ideas along the same theme that caused you to feel that way. Conflict occurs when there's a lot of lack, and this may spiral in a person's mind because they're generally either reacting to an environment that was understood as something that really doesn't work with them, or their sense of self is underdeveloped (lacking attitude, empathy, etc). These developments and understandings follow conceptualization. And underneath all that is the basis of a thread like this--asking for more information in dealing with people, who may be acting in a way to cause all that stress and upset feelings; all feelings of which are valid. You've to work with yourself all throughout and focus on that--to also remember that you who were built up before, who adhered to something good and better as a dream in the future, are not deprecated no matter what others do to you.
Everyone has this unique, common part of themselves that will remain no matter what others do to them. That's one reason why people feel conflicted in these situations and keep acknowledging their stance (eg feeling stressed or hurt) against what causes the conflict.
Post by: Truean on December 13, 2016, 07:24:40 pm
I said, "Don't tell me it's an over-generalization," but it doesn't matter. Say it as many times as you want; I don't care. I could explain it, but I actually don't care anymore. People are terrible and nothing, nothing will ever convince me otherwise. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8ScQHTQWMo) I hate all of humanity; they deserve it. You wanna deal with the reality of those hoards of people in those videos? Are they all special as they needlessly literally trample people, sometimes to death, over material items. (No question mark).
People are very sick of being told what to do, or what they should do.
I offer practical, real advice that helps in the real world. Everyone is sick of everyone else. So I just try to function the best I can, around their dysfunction. I can either help OP cope, or not.
Please do not quote
Post by: wierd on December 14, 2016, 12:38:02 am
I have a kind of middle-path attitude on that. Crowds reflect the worst humanity has to offer, with accuracy of that prediction increasing towards 1:1 as the crowd grows in size. I never trust crowds.
Individual humans though may have redeeming qualities. I observe and then make an informed choice to intervene or not, on a person by person basis.
It has been my experience, and seemingly that of other people, even from very regressive regimes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyqUw0WYwoc&t=10m54s), that when there are few people, who have to work together to survive, the cost of being an asshole is just too high for an individual, and the society is overall happier, even though they have less, and suffer more total adversity.
It is in very wealthy and prosperous societies, where the costs of being an asshole are so small, compared to the gains, that I see the most of this nasty side of human nature.
It is one of the reasons I greatly dislike the "progressive" mantra of moving people into dense city environments, or extensive social welfare. (Protip, it has very little to do with costs in a monetary or tangible form, and much more to do with costs in terms of societal and behavioral capacities) These things reduce the costs of being an asshole, and maximize the gains, which in turn, encourages asshole behavior. (again, all humans are capable of being assholes, and have to learn to not be one. Much like the mantra "every man as his price", every person has their point of comfort after which they feel comfortable being an asshole. The more removed from consequences a society becomes, the more prone to sliding down the spectrum into the kind of shitfest presented in Truean's video link the society becomes. The vast majority of the people who engaged in those acts of madness had no lasting ill consequences, and perversely, the most egregious of the offenders likely were the ones who grabbed the most holiday swag-- again, maximization of profit and minimalization of consequence == increased assholeness)
Individual people, removed from the "cover" of a big group or mob, are less likely to engage in asshole behaviors. This is why I focus on individuals instead of groups, despite the inefficiency. Group-centered interventions (such as big social welfare systems) offer a 'crowd' that hides and thus minimizes the consequences of abuse or being an asshole, greatly increasing the incidence rate. I dont donate to charities. I instead help individual people on individual bases, and only after an observation period. I get accused of being a miser or an asshole for this, but I feel that this is not an accurate assessment of my behavior. I am a hardass, BECAUSE I still care. Not in spite of.
Personally, I am of the opinion that human kind is not evolutionarily adapted enough for "massive society" like we have now. Our brains are not that different than they were 6000 years ago, when people had just discovered how to make bronze tools, and the size of a "city" was no greater than 2000 people. This is why the "asshole problem" exists. People just cannot keep track of all the offenders, and instead just accept the degenerate consequences of such action en-mass, because the offenders cannot be kept in the light and socially accountable for their misbehavior. (No, I dont mean prison, or things like that. I mean the natural consequences that come from being an asshole that arise in small-scale human group interactions. Word gets around, and being an asshole means loss of access to resources, assistance, and social interactions. In small-scale human interaction this greatly applies pressure to NOT be an asshole, which just is not there when the society grows so large that people are anonymized by a crowd. Throw into that, that despite what many pundits say, the "green revolution" in agriculture (eg, the use of fossil fuel derived nitrogen fertilizers to increase crop yields) is also NOT sustainable, the implication that the asshole problem has in relation to the spread of dangerous pathogens when coupled with antibiotic resistance-- and the handwriting is pretty damned clear that the planet just has too many people in it, and we are not advanced enough as a species to properly handle the realities of having a population this size. Collapse is inevitable, and will be the more horrible the longer it is postponed, because the population continues to grow, (and with it, the incidence rate of the asshole problem, and the overcapacity issues associated with such population density)
The sooner the contraction happens, the better, in terms of overall human survival.
I too am a major misanthrope, because I approach this with eyes that are open and a thinking mind, rather than an open heart and and an empty mind. I agree with Truean that in gestalt, the human race is too degenerate to be sensible to approach, and want to distance myself from it. Hell really is other people. It truly is.
Perhaps after a few tens of thousands of years, humans will have developed cogitative abilities that extend beyond a limited circle of 300 people, and can effectively combat the asshole problem when there is large population buildup--- But that future is NOT today.
Today, humans are assholes when they are in large groups, because they can get away with literal murder with no real consequences. We destroy our own planet for stupid reasons because we cannot properly conceive of the consequences of our actions, and we seek to deny these realities in favor of imagined realities that are not real.
Individual people, dealing with individual people, are well within the scope of what we are currently capable of dealing with, and dealing with correctly. That is why I take this tactic. I dont trust groups, and never will. I am willing to TRY to trust individual humans, on an individual basis.
Post by: Tiruin on December 14, 2016, 02:53:35 am
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I said, "Don't tell me it's an over-generalization," but it doesn't matter. Say it as many times as you want; I don't care. I could explain it, but I actually don't care anymore. People are terrible and nothing, nothing will ever convince me otherwise. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8ScQHTQWMo) I hate all of humanity; they deserve it. You wanna deal with the reality of those hoards of people in those videos? Are they all special as they needlessly literally trample people, sometimes to death, over material items. (No question mark).Why I made my post like that, is because in the time between then and now--you (as in, the wording) display very similar indicators that fall parallel to being jaded; nothing is needed to justify a generalization about the existence of a species and the characteristics towards them other than what one chooses to believe, and if a small sample set--a certain occurrence does such, it puts one into a position to either treat the concept as specific as it is towards one area, or to work with it as they please. These beliefs are all correct at a certain point in time, but when they become conclusions, that's another important point. It affects further ideas. All that in the link is on-point; it's a terrible happening, and it will affect anyone viewing or seeing it by adding more ideas in mind. And personally, this is a point which is handled by everyone in the field geared towards mental health and dealing with people everyday. It's a very stressful area, but it's also an area with the most potential to get to know people; the only limitation is the part for the self. That's what I was nudging when I was poking your post--it lacks specificity, and puts bias and prejudice from experience onto people undeserving of that kind of characterization. It is an over-generalization because it's as if what dysfunctional behavior one has seen, is expected to be seen from other people in similar or otherwise situations. That's the importance of culture and seeing into culture to bridge that gap.
The general idea of 'people' begins to be constructed by whom you're generally with. That's a similarity with many people who hold cynical beliefs about humanity as a general point; their thoughts, not necessarily their lived experiences as a whole, follow a mindset of thinking that focuses in mind upon these characteristics. And a certain attitude--western or otherwise--does not represent the whole existence of humanity nor their current capabilities and innate nature.
And that's me from a psychology course, alongside further studies into the whole science. That is why I am prodding at that generalization; because your posts were towards giving advice...but recently have been more and more biased because of what's being focused on :-\ It's a general notice for anyone working with dysfunction to not let one's OWN burden affect them--to deal with one's own personal 'mental burdens' else their capabilites in aiding others or giving rational, realistic advice may be hindered by these. That signifies the " :-\" I see in the tone of the recent posts. They use very spurious terms, filled with slang and shallow characterization, call upon assholes and other degenerate terms, but lack the follow-up needed to actually clarify the situation to forward understanding. Yes, the people are showing pretty ass-y behaviors; what could be done about it for the person you're advicing for their understanding and well-being? It should not end at misanthropy or towards just acknolwedging how bad the environment is.
And it's a disparate position when you see 'people' being defined very vaguely when the 'people' being mentioned using context clues are from one's lived experiences instead, hence the need of specificity since nobody is going against each other here--but for the purpose of advice to the OP.
@True: Do not let the people who you've experienced jade you into making them your representative benchmark for humanity. It's a very distinct line within the study of behavior how maladaptive behavior is noted. Do not use maladaptive behavior as your baseline towards seeing humanity, because that will inevitably skew your own perception while leaving other impressions stable (like one's own view of what they did; there may not be a connection at all between those, but the feelings towards them may stay).
And that's why I go against those generalizations, because they do not necessarily apply. They are right in a way, but come off more as a very cynical way to cope with what experiences you've went through. It's visible in the tone, and affects more than what's being said concisely. :-\
I sometimes wonder if this is more an american thing than a human thing, but the innate nature to be assholes is indeed baked into everyone.Big correction :P
People are not assholes by generalization; it's the behaviors rather. There's my gripe with the recent posts by which there's a lot of surface generalization without checking the specifics of what meaning is being presented, or what's going to be discussed from these--there's a lot between noting an 'innate nature' that creates this delicate conception, because it'll affect how people will see others given the meanings being presented. It's misinformation to mention such--that people can innately be assholes, but rather the idea would be that it's in the process of behavior given that how one would understand someone being 'an asshole' (totally western term :v) is localized in culture.
That said, it's rooted into maladaptive behavior. It's a lot more complex than saying 'this is innate and this isn't innate', because there are many factors which support the existence of certain behaviors over others. The 'asshole' behavior is directly tied into how the culture of the people, localized within areas where social norms, work (stretching from the workplace to the home to other areas applicable) are perpetuated. Like for example, a difference from my viewpoint given me being from another country. I'm all :o reading many posts here being so generalizing towards humanity when another viewpoint is completely different--I can note that the examples being given in the recent posts are localized, rather than actually generalized (because using my own examples from my city, country, province, etc, alongside connections to studies and cross-referencing from other people give a different viewpoint). We've noticed how American culture (not the holistic one but the one being perpetuated in common media) is pretty individualistic; there seems to be a lot more on words with less to what is being thought about, a lot more on turns of phrases and on saying what's on one's mind rather than thinking about the idea with others, but that's only to one tiny bit of such culture, and not even describing the majority of what's going on.
But that's the gentle poke towards misanthropy--it comes from those dealing with these directly, and in itself is a jaded view of reality disconnected from how it's being seen. Hell is other people, is the common quote supporting it, but it's not other people, it's the attitudes being reinforced and perpetuated, the thoughts commonly being thought about others and the limits of knowledge being present in individuals which are better overcome when people are together.
There's a lot of generalization being thrown out that derails from the OP, and more towards 'I've become a misanthrope because of what I've seen', and yet there are many people who have seen more and had a convincing outlook of faith in humanity which could specify a lot more than what was noted, rather than ignorance and not paying enough attention to what's happening. While there may be many problems within the world that are too many to specify and discuss--the most control anyone has, is with themselves and their thoughts and perception.That's why I ask a bit more thought into those posts. Misanthropy is not connected to one of open mind or open heart, or to how much one's mind is filled with information, but how that information is processed, alongside the lived experiences one has gone through.
...And seeing the content of that misanthropy, it seems more like a really reinforced dislike or otherwise towards certain characteristics being shown: Only that it's connected to the idea of 'person' rather than characterized by itself. ...So it's incomplete or misleading by itself to see it as misanthropy. Would be just like saying 'what they have done that I didn't like, anyone else can do--even those I didn't even meet yet'.
Post by: Truean on December 15, 2016, 12:47:48 am
Not sure I know or am concerned with where all that came from, where it's going or why....
Let's try something Tiruin, a little exercise called "so what?" Let's pretend that you're both a.) 110% correct, and b.) I believe you are correct. You aren't, and I don't, but let's pretend. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and then some. Let's say everything you put up there is not only true, but 110% true. Let's pretend you're not only correct but you're even more correct than you realize you are.
So what?
What's your point?
What would you like anyone, particularly OP, to do with that? How does that help at all?
It doesn't.
Here, we'll pretend you're right and, "all people aren't terrible," is a true statement. It isn't, but we'll pretend. The people around OP are terrible. He is having difficulty dealing with them. The idea that there are other people who aren't terrible doesn't help him deal with the terrible people in front of him. What practical steps would you like OP to take that come from your idea of "all people aren't terrible?" Do you believe "not overgeneralizing" will somehow help OP deal with a disgruntled customer screaming in his face for something he didn't cause and can't cure, while he is just trying to do his job? Saying, "not all metal is sharp and jagged," doesn't help at all when there IS sharp and jagged metal cutting you.... Your point, no matter how true or false, isn't applicable, is it?
Compare and contrast my advice:
Here, we'll pretend I'm wrong and , "all people are terrible," isn't a true statement. It is, but we'll pretend. The people around OP are terrible. He is having a difficult time dealing with them. The idea that those people are terrible and he should escape into his headspace while safely functioning, not harming anybody, and not considering them worthy of stressing him out does help him. I have provided several pages of practical steps, which I have successfully used for years. I believe following the practical steps I've provided in this thread can, have, and will help OP deal with a disgruntled customer screaming in his face for something he didn't cause and can't cure, while he is just trying to do his job. Saying, "all metal is sharp and jagged and here's how I deal with it, does help when there IS sharp and jagged metal cutting you.... It's getting advice from somebody whose dealt with it before; it is applicable, and works.
See what I just did there? It's an argument to practicality. It also argues the point from what the Null Hypothesis is, that you're wrong until proven right and that your critics are correct until proven wrong. Even assuming you're right and I'm wrong, so what? My way is more practical, and it delivers results at no cost, with no risk.
This is one of many reasons why academic social science is failing right now and being consciously rejected. It isn't providing average, everyday people with practical solutions, troubleshooting methods, and / or is telling them to ignore what's right in front of them in favor of some academic model theories. It does a terrible job persuading people, because people follow practical results. That's not even touching the massive methodological flaws. (http://www.npr.org/2016/11/12/501853647/how-were-the-polls-so-wrong)
What I'm saying is very simple. Assume people yelling at you are bastards, not worth your emotional investment, not worth stressing out over, and are just looking for somebody to yell at. They're crazy and you're unlucky. It isn't your fault. Here's a coping mechanism that isn't booze, drugs, or something else addictive, expensive, illegal, or fatteningly unhealthy for you.
This is called being a rationalist as opposed to an empiricist, because experiments and peer reviewed journals can't and aren't going to answer this question well. That's a very short version of it.
______
Note: As stated before repeatedly, I am not a mental health professional. There are licensed practicing mental health professionals, such as psychologists, who can help far more than I ever could. If you are experiencing a mental health issue, please seek out the proper care from a professional (NOT ME).
_______
Please do not quote:
Post by: Tiruin on December 15, 2016, 12:58:16 am
Differentiating someone's behavior and noting it's something of them, while not attaching yourself or otherwise to that behavior helps a lot, because it faster enables a person to structure their thoughts so that stress and otherwise occur less and less the more this is practiced--this is the theme mentioned by everyone in-between all the posts since page 1, and is extremely important for everyone. It's the underlying idea under 'don't care about that person if they're a jerk' which doesn't necessarily even include the person--it isolates the behavior, and directs you towards the behavior instead of the person, so that also avoids collateral cognitive dissonance of people, since the concepts of people are whom anyone will meet daily and in a multitude of scenarios; when one is able to differentiate and isolate behavior, it both exercises their own control over the situation entirely, and is a personal exercise that really alleviates stress on the mind because by then you'll know where to orient your feelings--to the behavior, to what's causing it, and under situations of duress you'll be able to handle yourself more because you'll have an understanding of the situation even if you have no idea what that person is capable of, because you addressed something that a person works with. If anyone doesn't see the importance of differentiation in that manner, please mention why, because this seems pretty confrontational given the tone (or that's just me getting the idea that my posts are coming more from experiments and studies). :-\ I've never said that certain attitudes which are considered terrible shouldn't be (or...that's how I read that), I'm talking about how unspecific saying 'people are terrible' is, when there was no direction to what was being said after saying that; that was tone of some recent posts instead of all other posts which gave advice in handling situations where these happen. To prepare for these situations because they can happen, to dissociate the self from the attitude being seen and t, ano not react to even press it further, and given other 'non-terrible' people as an area to look at too in how they handle the situation as the idea of how other people and what other people have been through can really affect someone. And one's thoughts can dwell on many things in between the time of incidence and the time you're in right now afterwards, especially when these things equal concepts of the people they're familiar in working with or will work with; the following thoughts may also add to stress and being upset or detract from them, these happen after the event has happened and build up over time if what one is dealing with is relatively, similarly consistent or may not have a concrete idea of dealing with what's going on. So all the advice back there is towards techniques or how to handle these.
Post by: Truean on December 17, 2016, 12:34:54 pm
Post by: TheBiggerFish on December 17, 2016, 01:02:51 pm
Post by: Truean on December 17, 2016, 03:34:58 pm
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on January 02, 2017, 10:41:09 am
Tried to stick to script and just direct them to the right information. Didn't wanna hear that for anything. Kept demanding somebody pay for the part for them. Not happening. Doesn't matter anyhow, because that's never happened and never gonna. Of course, they're gonna bitch some more.
This goes on for 30 minutes and I don't get get the stuff done that I'm supposed to, because the customer won't let me go or stop bitching. Eventually they leave after screaming more. Supervisor doesn't want to hear it, and I'm getting a little bit complained to about not getting things done. Of course.
I did the whole "go into your own head" bit and it helped, but damn.
Post by: Truean on January 02, 2017, 05:58:00 pm
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on June 13, 2017, 06:25:12 pm
Got blamed again at work when it clearly wasn't my fault. A higher up backed me, but basically said that there wasn't much I could do, about the person who was being difficult to me.
I just want to not care. I'm not invested in the outcome in the sense that I'll do pretty much whatever the boss says that I'm allowed to. We're regulated, and it isn't my fault. I didn't pass these laws or whatever and I don't even agree with some of them. Trying to argue they're impractical doesn't really do too much because I'm still screwed if we were ever caught breaking them.
Ultimately, someone is taking out more of their frustrations on me, worse yet is the old "I'm not frustrated with you." Maybe, but that person is yelling and I'm the only one in the room, so.... if not yelling at me then who?
Other than sounding a little whiney to my boss (because i had to listen to the person who was in the wrong whine for 2 hours instead of getting things done) I think I'm ok, but the attitude is there. This person is basically not able to be fired right now. He thinks I'm his replacement and I'm actually scared he might be right, cause I'm not sure I want that job. Whole situation is just aahhhhhhh.
Post by: DFNewb on August 22, 2017, 02:07:12 pm
Go see how other people you know do it and try to learn...
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on August 22, 2017, 06:53:24 pm
One of the things killing me right now is people asking what I think are leading questions. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leading_question)
Basically, this goes back to some of the stuff we were talking about before where people are unreasonable and a bit delusional.
"So that means _____, right?"
NOOOOOOOOOoo. I just said the exact opposite and the person doesn't wanna listen at all. They clearly are ignoring the things I'm telling them, because they want the things they want to be true. They also want me to confirm what they think, even when it's wrong and they should know it's wrong because they were just told they are wrong. They were told the truth and that truth isn't something they want to hear.
I'm starting to recognize it for what it is: emotional manipulation. They want me to feel like a jerk for not being agreeable, or for being argumentative. I'm not being argumentative; I'm telling the truth. There are four lights. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_eSwq1ewsU)
Yet these insistent jerks keep insisting. Sometimes I just want to scream, "SHUT THE HELL UP." There are times I don't want to care about "free speech" or whatever. I'd favor "smarter speech," or at least not "totally dumb completely double speak speech." Often when I don't respond in perfect agreement and perfect tone, they say things like "I'm just saying." No duh. I'm hiding the fact that I'm astonished you're saying it after being told the exact opposite and expecting words to magically change reality. If the item isn't on sale, then it isn't on sale and there is absolutely nothing the poor clerk behind the counter can do about it. If people would think for 30 seconds and actually were decent they'd realize they are being totally unreasonable and irrational. What? Is the clerk going to just give the item to them for less than the price? They'd get fired, but the jerk customer doesn't care. Just insistently demand somebody loose their food, shelter, and life, because you'd rather pay less for something. Some of the slightly decent individuals might state, "That's not what I'm saying." YES IT IS. That is what would happen; can't say that though. Go ahead, ruin the life of some poor kid trying to hold down a retail job so you can brag what a great deal you got for a day....
I honestly don't get how people can be that terrible. No one wants to do anything right anymore. Did they ever, and if not, isn't that depressing.
Post by: DFNewb on August 23, 2017, 06:10:14 am
Guys who do that sort of thing to me IRL: cut off from my life
Girls who do that: stand my ground / say no it means X. If they want to stick around they will regardless.
So if you watch politics and even talk shows where the host and guest disagree, you can see examples of people paid to do this (in a way). Sometimes they just pretend the question was something else and answer the question they wanted to, other times they answer in very meaningless terms they don't actually mean anything even if said publicly.
I guess verbal IQ plays a part but it's definitely learnable, most these people are not naturals at it.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on October 16, 2017, 08:20:57 pm
And I've moved from complaining about customers to complaining about co workers. I'm still not sure exactly how this happened.
I have no authority at my job. I got responsibility thrown at me, because I was the only one who could do it. Doesn't mean I get paid any better, because I don't. Now I have stupid co workers bitching at me and I'm not sure if they're worse or the customers or the bosses. How did I get in this position anyhow? I have no ability to do anything about anything, but people are complaining to me as if I did. They know there are certain rules in place that I didn't make and I just can't do shit about them, but they're gonna complain and make my life miserable.
Customers come and go but co workers aren't going anywhere and damn it that kinda sucks. I don't want them to go anywhere. I want them to leave me alone.
Are Truean and Tiruin still around anywhere? Just asking.
Post by: BlackHeartKabal on October 16, 2017, 10:01:07 pm
Hey DFNewb. I don't really understand some of the things you're saying, but I guess I might like to. I feel pressured to give certain responses idiots should know I can't give. They kinda do know I can't give the responses they want but they're going to make my life hell anyhow.Rough, man. I'm sorry you're dealing with this. Tell me what kind of response you want from me and I'll oblige. If you want compassion, or sternness, or honesty, or anything else.
And I've moved from complaining about customers to complaining about co workers. I'm still not sure exactly how this happened.
I have no authority at my job. I got responsibility thrown at me, because I was the only one who could do it. Doesn't mean I get paid any better, because I don't. Now I have stupid co workers bitching at me and I'm not sure if they're worse or the customers or the bosses. How did I get in this position anyhow? I have no ability to do anything about anything, but people are complaining to me as if I did. They know there are certain rules in place that I didn't make and I just can't do shit about them, but they're gonna complain and make my life miserable.
Customers come and go but co workers aren't going anywhere and damn it that kinda sucks. I don't want them to go anywhere. I want them to leave me alone.
Are Truean and Tiruin still around anywhere? Just asking.
Truean and Tiruin aren't around, I think.
I know how all the pressure feels when you're trying your best and can't give up. These are my off hours and I might sleep after but if you just feel like you wanna vent or cry on my shoulder, hit up my PM box, and I'll respond tomorrow.
Long as we aren't giving up down here, don't give up upthere, man. I'm rooting for you.
Post by: Tiruin on October 17, 2017, 12:01:58 am
Are Truean and Tiruin still around anywhere? Just asking.We're here. :) Truean is busy busy with her life, and I'm busy with Masters in Psych and other matters :P
If you've anything to ask or inquire, you can PM us freely (or as I can't speak for Truean, my inbox is open :D), but foremost I would note the importance of connections--friends or otherwise present there, acting as your primary supports; people you can speak to, and especially glean reflective advise. In communication, there is less of 'one party is always in the wrong' when trouble breaks out, as one's own voice serves as a message to be received or responded to, but issues in between can also mess up how messages are received that may make them feel like something threatening or hurtful when they're not meant to be. Context and understanding the other person is pretty much a very important variable there.
Otherwise, one's OWN interpretative/reasoning process is something to also reflect on, as that is what you can do even without anyone else around you in mulling over an event in the past, or predictably in the future.
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[...]I just said the exact opposite and the person doesn't wanna listen at all. They clearly are ignoring the things I'm telling them, because they want the things they want to be true. They also want me to confirm what they think, even when it's wrong and they should know it's wrong because they were just told they are wrong. They were told the truth and that truth isn't something they want to hear.I'm not aiming to argue on the context--but to note adjustment of meaning. I don't know the local culture there or how people act when they're passively suggesting something, but in the long-run of life I can note how important being aware of your own reasoning and interpretation-of-others'-meaning is invariably going to affect how you feel right after. The process is something you can read on, as I recall many books or literature materials online exist (or your local library :D), but also talking it over (in a general sense without names or such, before any specifics for further detail) with friends or people trusted who you know can give insight helps.
I'm starting to recognize it for what it is: emotional manipulation.[...]
It's also when conclusions are drawn and made which can interrupt further depth of insight because they act as points of reference of how that one saying, event, or happening was interpreted.
How would it appear from their perspective though?
So again, I'm not adding onto how to exactly interpret what had occurred (with my messy wording and all)--you're the best person to define that; I'm merely giving my views :O But what I hear about corporate culture is that you also have management and other authorities/roles that you can ask and inquire with, to speak about issues that bother you. Sources of feedback help! And these can come from your supervisors as well :O 360 degree feedback?
And wishing y'all well! :3
Post by: Trapezohedron on October 17, 2017, 05:59:26 am
Word of advice? Shrug it off. These people are not people. These people are imbeciles, incapable of coherent thought. I worked call centers for quite a while and had to eat people like these. "Why are you guys still in business." they say. I ask how I can help, but they are being belligerent. I understand that they might have experienced some wrong with the company, but if they're actively trying to screw you over, then provide the bare minimum help you can get away with without compromising your job.
Unfortunate however, that management won't likely back you up because of retarded policies in place that basically allow customers to harm you more than you could ever even hope to touch them at any point at work (not that you would), but some malicious compliance should help retain your sanity.
But you'll lose your soul. Just shrug it off; it's not you they're talking to. It's you as the employee. And for whoever goddamn cares, these imbeciles do not see employees as human. So why don't you return the favor and just do what you can to get rid of them as fast as you can without them causing so much of a fuss, and if you can get away with a little malicious compliance, by all means. Don't endanger your job though; these customers are not worth the trouble.
Especially if they're asking you to bypass something you can't bypass per policy. If anything, just summon your manager immediately to deal with it. And if your manager has complaints, deal with it to the letter (and perhaps spirit of tone) per your manager.
If you think you can't get away with mischief, I always indulge myself in cathartic reading of the aforementioned links. Sometimes they aren't too cathartic however.
Post by: dragdeler on October 21, 2017, 10:06:12 am
As mentionned before, allocate attention appropriatly, tough personally I don't invest much because the tone oftentimes grants you clear hints as to when it's you cue. (I have a bit of a hearing problem periodically). See just as I'm writing this my father calls, he has suffered a dramatic headwound and isn't the same since. And just as I'm shaking my head, I missed my cue, causing him to interrupt my answer, which in return caused me to raise my voice, adopting a horrible patronizing tone. Life sucks cause it's mostly hard if you actually give a shit. So you can not even AFFORD to be emotional in fact. Just repeat what you know to be the best possible answer like a mantra, so you can undercut any shortcomings with instant foresight, competence or other form of superiority that helps to keep that stoicism stand like a flag pole.
Just so you know, professionnaly I'm the biggest underachiever ever, that's why I'm able to actually excel at my current job, so this is more of an "I feel you" thing than a real advice.
Post by: Truean on November 11, 2017, 10:00:45 pm
Eh, human coworkers or otherwise suck. Improperly equipped to deal with life/the real world, they lash out (unfairly as a rule).
Only human beings were a terrible enough species to invent office politics.
1.) Document: cover your ass.
a.) Do not document in computerized form, because IT is more likely than not reading your emails. Careful, "discovery" is not a good thing much of the time.
b.) Email is useful for creating a record, because email is for a long time and is timestamped proof that you sent something to someone. Use carefully.
2.) Again, mental control.... (see prior thread posts here).
3.) Professionalism: this is where you stick to a slightly different script.
a.) Focus on the job and fulfilling your role in it where possible.
b.) Avoid temptations to argue/bicker. (Good) Bosses hate this; it annoys bad ones too.
4.) Take indirect credit for it:
a.) If you've been placed in a position with responsibility but no power, then someone is taking credit for that task.
b.) If you get into a discussion with the higher up, gently and calmly work in the task, like when they ask what you're doing.
c.) It will show you're the one who actually did it without being so vulgar as to come right out with it.
d.) Realize that if you do this right, it's job security. (Are they going to can the person doing the thing nobody else can/wants to do?)
5.) Realize Coworkers are just repeat customers ("internal customers," but that's for another time perhaps).
a.) The same stupidity infecting humanity also affects your human coworkers. You just seem them more often, on a repeat basis.
b.) They are also in the ocean of emotions humanity is drowning in. Id.
c.) learn the formal and informal power dynamics in the deck of your workplace. Who controls the hearts, diamonds, cloves, and clubs.
Tred carefully, fantasize well when safe.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on December 31, 2017, 10:00:34 am
We're supposed to do certain things. No one does them, except I do or try to. Now we're starting to get in trouble and the consequences of not doing crap are starting to catch up.
There's a substantial amount of money to be cut from the budget if we don't have certain things done. I politely tried to help someone do these things. You also have to document stuff, because of course you do. It's not hard stuff to do, but nobody has written crap down, or if they have, then I don't know of it. They haven't shown it.
This has gotten the higher ups attention. They're gonna miss that money if it goes. I'm sure people are going to try to throw me under the bus. The forms aren't that hard. I've been told it isn't my job to do them, even though I'd freaking do it if it meant we didn't loose all that money. I think the people who should've done them didn't and now we might be screwed.
So now I hear the higher ups like me but the local people hate me (they say they don't but they expressly think I'm not "working out"). Ok, I'm starting to think the locals are whatever. The higher ups are afraid of the regulations that mean we have to pay craptons out in fines.
Things are not ok, and somebody is going to get blamed here. I have been told by a trusted local worker that "you didn't screw anybody. You threw 'em a fuckin life preserver and they screwed themselves by not listening." I'm still new here and people don't seem to like me.
They want me gone because I'm not part of the good ole boys club with its corruption. Just by doing my job right, I'm making them look bad (NOT on purpose at all).
WTF
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on February 05, 2018, 11:34:30 pm
It's not my job/area, but I was kinda thrown into it in any case, because o god, nobody wants to answer for this junk.
I didn't even try to get anyone in trouble, because this junk was right out in the open for anybody to see. It woulda been seen, and soon.
Anyhow, it's now obvious that the higher ups were lied to by some people, but they aren't exactly sure what to do about it, because the people who lied might not be fireable.
They're union and of course I'm not. Go figure.
So now, new problem: I have people trying to sabotage me at work. So far it's not working but we'll have to see how that goes. My current boss likes me anyhow.
Meanwhile communications have broken down, because I suck at talking. I'm nice, quiet, don't bother people, that sorta thing.
It isn't like I'm hurting anybody. I've actually saved the place a lot of crap and work my butt off. I just don't belong to the good ole boy's club.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on March 09, 2018, 09:20:17 pm
I'm having some trouble kind of mentally dealing with it. Does not compute or make sense or add up mathematically.
Any ideas?
Post by: Truean on March 09, 2018, 09:27:53 pm
Breathe. Just breathe. As long as you exist, you can make some changes, whatever those may be (big or small).
First question, are you ok to the point you're not in danger now? Long as that answer is "yes, I am ok for the time being," things can work....
Somehow, this just happens to be when I decided to complain about my heater.... Anyhow.....
Does not compute or make sense or add up mathematically.
Are you a mathematical person?
Would you like it explained in a ... quasi mathematical manner?
(I could do it in proofs, but that's cruel and unusual punishment).
If you want, I can get into some more of the stuff I was telling you and why dimensional analysis makes it work.
Anything I said before help you at all?
Please do not quote:
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on March 09, 2018, 09:28:26 pm
Post by: Truean on March 09, 2018, 11:22:10 pm
Hi.
Ok, so quiet PM aside.... You wanted math?
We're all in flatland. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyuNrm4VK2w) Click the spoiler....
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
It's not an insult, it's a helpful observation to show where we are verses where we want to be. What's that? You're not a square? That's true. You're a 3 dimensional being passing one way through the 4th dimension and blindly through the 5th dimension while being battered by the 6th dimension. Confused? Don't be. Keep reading, if you really want the math behind it, it's worth the read. Ants: (If you want the details, click the spoiler for the quasi math stuff. I think it's worth it anyhow).
Imagine an ant living and perceiving its 2D world only length and width, NO HEIGHT. Now we know there is height, but this ant simply can't perceive it. It's the same as not being able to see colors without eyes, hear sound without ears, etc. In our universe that 2-D universe is 3-D & we are ant, we're also in hyperspace (4D, 5D, 6D), but we can't perceive it anymore than the ant can perceive height. That's why we can only think and imagine about the 5th dimension, just as the ant here can't think about height. We already understand 4 dimensions, e.g when you meet a friend you specify the coordinates in 3 dimensions, plus the time the meeting will take place. Those CDs or books on the shelf are each a universe as perceived by someone. They can't see any of the dimensions, because they are trapped on one and can't seem to connect to any other.
They're lost in their own little world that revolves around them. They're "the customer," the ______. That's all they can think about, just like the "monarch of point land."
What, why, and how I've been saying things here:
You may have noticed some of the things I said before, about choosing, and certain things like this, " The fool is beneath you and numerous. They feel, and don't think. Think and rise.... Learn to observe the world and perceive it without letting it alter you. This is the key. Understand. Observe. To attain the birds' eye is to turn a blizzard to a breeze. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=157225.msg6911319#msg6911319)" I mean that literally in a mathematical sense but in a way most people may simply can't understand through no fault of their own. Again, we are stuck in flatland.
Read what I wrote again with the above in mind.... (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=157225.msg6913092#msg6913092)
TheBiggerFish's z level reference was more spot on than he may have realized. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=157225.msg6913111#msg6913111)
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=157225.msg6913620#msg6913620
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=157225.msg6921395#msg6921395
5th dimensional response. Meditation as alternate choice (imagining stimuli) (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=157225.msg6926255#msg6926255)
6th dimensional response analysis. Taking into account other probabilities beyond self. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=157225.msg6932122#msg6932122)
5th and 6th dimensional denial don't help. Sadly, people do it; it's bad for everyone. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=157225.msg6951417#msg6951417)
So, to unify and oversimplify prior statements, without repeating myself more than needed: it's recognizing .... Awareness itself is enormous. That awareness enables different actions. While we may be flowing through time (4D) one way, our ability to perceive it, our probability (5D) and other probabilities (6D), may itself alter how things go by informing our responses and perhaps stimuli (even if only imagined/believed). I have several lines along my graph of time and probability at the end of the day, but say I've got two: one I stress out over terrible things I have no control over and another where I imagine something far better. I'm laying in bed either way.... Even if the imagining is the only thing I can control, one clearly gives a different outcome than the other, within the restrictions i operate under. That's the perception. Does that help at all?
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on March 10, 2018, 12:54:34 am
It's a little amazing and I'm not sure I know exactly how to use that right now though.
Either way it's late right now.
Thanks.
Post by: Ghills on March 21, 2018, 11:25:00 pm
Wow. Kinda.
It's a little amazing and I'm not sure I know exactly how to use that right now though.
Either way it's late right now.
Thanks.
Eh...it's a lot of stuff that sounds profound but it's just 'be mindful that other people have very different perspectives than you do' and 'don't stress yourself over things you can't do anything about' dressed up fancy and with a dash of added arrogance.
Honestly, it sounds like you're expecting other people to listen to you because you're right, or have good ideas, or have contributed to the company. You're frustrated when people don't respect reality (as you see it). You expect your work to speak for itself.
Honestly, that's a little naive.
Other people not only have their own viewpoints from which you may not look right, they also often don't care about what's logically right. To get your ideas heard, you need to convince people that these ideas are in their best interest. That's just how people work. They don't care about what's right from your perspective. They care about 1) their best interest, 2) what they from their perspective think is right. Trying to rely on a logical argument about why your idea is correct will only leave you frustrated and ignored. You need to start presenting arguments about why your idea is logically in their and the company's best interest. Not just 'This will work and accomplish X' but 'This will accomplish X bringing benefits of Y'.
Your work is inanimate. It can not speak. And if no one knows you personally, they don't know to trust or listen to you.
You have 2 choices: You can learn to speak for yourself and show people why your work is good (i.e. promotes their and the company's interests) or you can accept that you will go through life a quiet person whose work gets overlooked right up to the point where you uncover a problem and you suffer consequences. The first one relies on your skills, the second one relies on tying yourself to a specific person powerful enough to protect you and be your spokesperson. You have to pick which one will cause you fewest problems and work to succeed with it. Frankly, in the modern economy the second strategy is pretty much dead and I don't think you can go through life successfully that way any more.
If you have uncovered potential workplace lying you may be a serious threat to other people's best interest. It sounds like those other people are much more secure than you are. Keep trying at work, but be prepared to look for another job.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on March 23, 2018, 09:12:48 pm
Wow. Kinda.
It's a little amazing and I'm not sure I know exactly how to use that right now though.
Either way it's late right now.
Thanks.
Eh...it's a lot of stuff that sounds profound but it's just 'be mindful that other people have very different perspectives than you do' and 'don't stress yourself over things you can't do anything about' dressed up fancy and with a dash of added arrogance.
Honestly, it sounds like you're expecting other people to listen to you because you're right, or have good ideas, or have contributed to the company. You're frustrated when people don't respect reality (as you see it). You expect your work to speak for itself.
Honestly, that's a little naive.
Other people not only have their own viewpoints from which you may not look right, they also often don't care about what's logically right. To get your ideas heard, you need to convince people that these ideas are in their best interest. That's just how people work. They don't care about what's right from your perspective. They care about 1) their best interest, 2) what they from their perspective think is right. Trying to rely on a logical argument about why your idea is correct will only leave you frustrated and ignored. You need to start presenting arguments about why your idea is logically in their and the company's best interest. Not just 'This will work and accomplish X' but 'This will accomplish X bringing benefits of Y'.
Your work is inanimate. It can not speak. And if no one knows you personally, they don't know to trust or listen to you.
You have 2 choices: You can learn to speak for yourself and show people why your work is good (i.e. promotes their and the company's interests) or you can accept that you will go through life a quiet person whose work gets overlooked right up to the point where you uncover a problem and you suffer consequences. The first one relies on your skills, the second one relies on tying yourself to a specific person powerful enough to protect you and be your spokesperson. You have to pick which one will cause you fewest problems and work to succeed with it. Frankly, in the modern economy the second strategy is pretty much dead and I don't think you can go through life successfully that way any more.
If you have uncovered potential workplace lying you may be a serious threat to other people's best interest. It sounds like those other people are much more secure than you are. Keep trying at work, but be prepared to look for another job.
Is that really all you got out of what she said over the past couple years in this thread? That and her PMs helped me a lot. Anyhow, I liked the part about probability and trying to go for the best thing you can by doing the best input (focusing on stuff you can do instead of letting the stuff you can't control get to you, cause if you do, you'll end up worse off).
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on March 29, 2018, 05:01:23 pm
I'm looking at maybe a transfer to another department or location, which may actually be better, possibly. There are downsides, but yeah.
The company doesn't like individual territorial claims as valid reasons to do interesting things. I just hope this doesn't blowback on me somehow, even though I didn't do anything other than say something about it.
I'm wondering if I should try to get transferred to another location or not. The higher ups like me, because they were probably wondering what's going on.
Post by: Truean on March 29, 2018, 08:18:43 pm
.... First, calm down.
This is an exception. I am not posting on boards currently, because people aren't nice. It poses a risk to me and they don't care. That stated, I'm the moron who's lost well over $1M and climbing for doing the right thing so far. I'm even more of a moron for having a soft spot for innocent people being exploited through no fault of their own. If outed & harmed for having a conscience, then I suppose that would be the inevitable result of attempting to be decent in an indecent world.
As for the PM, I was busy. You'll be ok if you kept your hands clean, and properly documented the truth.
Relocation & Remedy: "transfer to another department."
Several factors to consider, department within same building, or different location? Commute, family/social in location, and reporting for possible retaliation (e.g. who do you call both locally and at corporate level if somebody messes with you?) This should be your focus on this issue here for now.
Retaliation: If you have halfway competent HR, and legal departments they will protect your identity for as long as possible, and you yourself after that point.
Referral: Proper referral made.
Breathe. Concerning posting, discretion is the better part of valor.
[Please do not quote:]
Post by: Tiruin on March 30, 2018, 06:00:07 am
There's often a lot more to Truean's words than how they seem minimalized by this response. Often keep in mind, there are 2 major influences to a person's behavior--what you see now, that you respond to, and what had happened that could've affected what you're seeing now. Truean is by far, the last person I'd attach the idea of arrogance to--her tone however, is something subjectively perceived (Also helps to not snip at her, and instead provide constructive criticism in the least). She means well, is the baseline though.Wow. Kinda.
It's a little amazing and I'm not sure I know exactly how to use that right now though.
Either way it's late right now.
Thanks.
Eh...it's a lot of stuff that sounds profound but it's just 'be mindful that other people have very different perspectives than you do' and 'don't stress yourself over things you can't do anything about' dressed up fancy and with a dash of added arrogance.
Next point; people aren't fully interested only in their own interests--that idea is only applicable if the persons receiving are strained in their capabilities and must fulfill something before freeing up their priorities. People can read in between the lines, no matter how something is written, based on what meaning is present both by what they know and what they can sense. Everytime I read people saying 'these people don't care', I know that's an impression and expression: Nobody can judge what other people care about, and saying it's not within their 'care' can write the wrong mindset. It's attention that's being talked about, not concern. That's a core notion within presentability, or face value. It can create the idea 'as if this is what this other person is doing' without their communication whatsoever. And in the context of this thread's concerns--it covers the importance of sequencing ideas. All problems at work are contextually bound to work; if people are trying to sabotage you, work with what you have within your workplace that helps you and the general employees. When in doubt, ask the most relevant people there, and communicate with them. Being aware of your own shortcomings or what you may lack currently, helps. It doesn't mean anything belittling; it means you have space for improvement in an area, and there's no wrong in improving and accepting help, feedback, or practice there.
Quote
Meanwhile communications have broken down, because I suck at talking. I'm nice, quiet, don't bother people, that sorta thing.Communication does not make one a bother. In reality; there is a lack of communication even if there seems to be 'just enough communication', and this is a common thing. Nobody is born with perfection in communication; we learn how to gauge our communication, but it all comes from within first, with us and ourselves.
Do practice with friends, or your colleagues when you have the time. (I'm unsure but doesn't the US employ professionals to aid their workers?) It helps your sense of how you see yourself, and that will help to work with generally other things. How you verse your ideas; how those ideas can be improved, and how to work with your own stressors.
Post by: Ghills on March 30, 2018, 09:25:57 am
Wow. Kinda.
It's a little amazing and I'm not sure I know exactly how to use that right now though.
Either way it's late right now.
Thanks.
Eh...it's a lot of stuff that sounds profound but it's just 'be mindful that other people have very different perspectives than you do' and 'don't stress yourself over things you can't do anything about' dressed up fancy and with a dash of added arrogance.
Honestly, it sounds like you're expecting other people to listen to you because you're right, or have good ideas, or have contributed to the company. You're frustrated when people don't respect reality (as you see it). You expect your work to speak for itself.
Honestly, that's a little naive.
Other people not only have their own viewpoints from which you may not look right, they also often don't care about what's logically right. To get your ideas heard, you need to convince people that these ideas are in their best interest. That's just how people work. They don't care about what's right from your perspective. They care about 1) their best interest, 2) what they from their perspective think is right. Trying to rely on a logical argument about why your idea is correct will only leave you frustrated and ignored. You need to start presenting arguments about why your idea is logically in their and the company's best interest. Not just 'This will work and accomplish X' but 'This will accomplish X bringing benefits of Y'.
Your work is inanimate. It can not speak. And if no one knows you personally, they don't know to trust or listen to you.
You have 2 choices: You can learn to speak for yourself and show people why your work is good (i.e. promotes their and the company's interests) or you can accept that you will go through life a quiet person whose work gets overlooked right up to the point where you uncover a problem and you suffer consequences. The first one relies on your skills, the second one relies on tying yourself to a specific person powerful enough to protect you and be your spokesperson. You have to pick which one will cause you fewest problems and work to succeed with it. Frankly, in the modern economy the second strategy is pretty much dead and I don't think you can go through life successfully that way any more.
If you have uncovered potential workplace lying you may be a serious threat to other people's best interest. It sounds like those other people are much more secure than you are. Keep trying at work, but be prepared to look for another job.
Is that really all you got out of what she said over the past couple years in this thread? That and her PMs helped me a lot. Anyhow, I liked the part about probability and trying to go for the best thing you can by doing the best input (focusing on stuff you can do instead of letting the stuff you can't control get to you, cause if you do, you'll end up worse off).
I haven't read the whole thread. But out of that post? Yeah, that's pretty much what she said. Do the best you can do and don't worry about the rest is ancient advice.
If it's helping it's all good, but it's also what my grandma told me when I started kindergarten.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on May 28, 2018, 07:24:56 pm
I've been kind of somehow managing, thankfully better than some, not as good as I should be. No drugs, no drinking, no sex, few and far between friends (but thankfully a handful of nice ones). I am largely a shut in right now, and have been for years. I read a lot. That's about it. Plus I (sort of thankfully actually) have the possibility to better myself and my situation, maybe.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=170856.0
I'm in kind of a nose to the grindstone situation, but it keeps my head above water for now and it's probably a high functioning depression. Loneliness sucks; but it's "safe." It's kinda sad in its own way, but I'm alive and slowly, painfully slowly might climb up hand over hand to somewhere decent?
I don't know. I'm trying not to resort to the common vices: drugs, drinking, whatever, and I actually never have. I understand why people turn to them though, to forget something or deal with stuff. Totally not saying it's a good idea, that's why I avoid it. Even other stuff kinda falls into that though, like food, or mal adaptive behavior. I'm doing a lot better than some in that catagory, but yeah. I've used food to mask pain, and I'm thankful I even had food to do it (something had to give).
I don't know. Am I making any sense?
Post by: Truean on August 09, 2018, 10:43:30 pm
she
Thank you; I mean this. Kindness: the only true currency.
Read the last few years of this thread if you like. Guide, method, coping, theory, and application, among others.... It is tolerance of the intolerable, and seeping solace from stupidity. I took something they never had, though I grant you, that's worse. It contains what we all do, where we all are & aren't, and for that I apologize.
You are. You did. I'm not. You owe me nothing. Our system is flawed; its beneficiaries enjoy that. Those they don't scare, they scar, like me. You had no voice and borrowed mine enough to leave stigmata. A better system is needed. Evidence of your boss' actions dictated her downfall. Lack of it and failure to protect witnesses delayed it.
Continue managing, avoiding vices, and knowing the hole you're trying to fill with food or Mal-adaptive behavior. Flawed tools, but better than many others or none at all and sufficient for now, but not forever. One day, replace flawed tools with better ones. Continue avoiding the common vices. Begin creating virtues. Hand over hand eventually works.
Stay low, gradually improve your situation.
Please do not quote....
Post by: scourge728 on September 13, 2018, 09:37:12 am
Post by: Truean on September 25, 2018, 10:08:21 pm
I don't know. For all failings, I have tried my best to control my imperfect mind when possible.
Hopefully, this helps someone somehow. Honestly, it's all we really have. Everything else comes from it.
I've felt imprisoned in my own mind before. Many have. Stress happens. Hopefully luck saves....
You do what you can where you are, with what you have. Physical, mental, etc., it's all tools.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on November 13, 2018, 07:38:29 pm
Still feel empty, but I'm not going to just fill it up with drinking or whatever.
Today was weird a bit though, some guy came gave a stupid speech about more efficiency at my work. We're very efficient, more than any of the other branch offices in the country.
I hope to God they forget about this guy, but he'd totally like to come back I mean of course he would. "Of course" we could just be twice as productive as we already are...
Dude has never done my job, but he can do it better and its easy.... It feels pretty insulting. I don't know what I did wrong, or anyone for that matter.
They paid this guy to come talk, but thank god only 12 people showed up and most of us were kinda forced into it. Guy gives me the creeps.
There's a union were I am now, and I have half a mind to bring that shit up. My God. WTF? I finally might have a good job after all the absolute shit I slogged through.
We have collective bargaining for productivity and work assignments I think, but I'm new and I don't want to make waves. Plus, he hasn't done anything yet.
Sadly, some of the people I work with don't recognize this guy for what he is and think it's a good idea to bitch where he can hear. Or they did today. O Jesus no.
I thought I just got crap stable for the first time in a long time and then this guy, because everybody's so damn smart, just doesn't seem to care.
Also totally thank you guys for being awesome and listening while providing a safe place.
Post by: Truean on November 14, 2018, 10:59:05 am
This guy sounds potentially dangerous, con artist. Promise maker, check bouncer, figuratively.. Recommend evade and survive discretely, for now. Please don't let this be who I fear....
Before you report, remember stay low, if you must falter be wise.
Consider, how new you are, lack of recon on landscape, and any probation period you may be on....
May post more later. Til then be safe, never use work computer unless required, stay low.
Post by: Imic on November 16, 2018, 06:06:37 pm
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on November 17, 2018, 01:44:56 pm
Post by: Truean on November 17, 2018, 03:24:14 pm
History and Overview:
This guy is an issue, specifically an "efficiency expert," pronounced "hatchet-man." Worked with these buffoons before. Haven't found a legal way to slap them, not easily anyhow.
My skills include being a turnaround expert; they try and fail to make me look bad. There have been a steady stream of these guys being hired and fired, because they do nothing.
Whereas I found ways to shore up failing enterprises, these morons come in and look for "cost savings" (things, and people, to cut). I rarely ever "cut" anything. I buttressed. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buttress)
They are the cause of death spirals, failing to realize the "costly" department losing money, was holding up 5 profitable departments....
These logical fallacies roam from foolish executive to foolish executive; whereas I've been a senior executive a time or two and booted a few of these parasites.
Statement: Evade and survive suggestion still stands. Recon without appearing to do so. Resolve to build up a base.
This guy is a systemic threat you are not equipped to handle right now. You are new, do not know the system well/have recon, and I suspect you have not determined who your allies and foes are yet? .... Further, you have not determined who wields what power (formally AND informally), nor have you grasped the Union yet and its strength or lack thereof.
Furthermore, you have not determined who has what motivations, roadblocks to attaining that motivation, and desired means to get what they want.
Translation: Without appearing to do so, evade, survive, recon, refortify. Slowly build foundation.
Relax:
One thing these pissants all have in common is: they all work slow. (Note: that is unless he's a corporate raider, but he's not acquiring the business/its stock. This one is not).
If they tried to swoop in too quickly, then their
Countermeasure 1: Avoid proximity to him: physical or otherwise
Do not offer to give this prick any information. He can and will use it against you. He will question, mock, and replace any process, claiming the idea as his own and charging a mint for it. Any ideas he overhears that are good, he will steal.
Countermeasure 2: "I don't know about."
This innocent statement can be used as both deflection and stirring questions in the same breath. If you realize this guy is here, others will too. Inevitably, he will come up in conversation, and seeing as how you know of him, he clearly already has, somehow. This is your response. It deflects from you, gives an excuse not to help him, and raises questions; three purposes for the price of one breath.
Recon objective 1: Figure out if your union is effective, and how
Unions are one of the only hopes for your average working person to avoid the robot automation apocalypse (https://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/27/kai-fu-lee-robots-will-replace-half-of-all-jobs.html) from a widescale standpoint. Ask your grocery store cashier, while you can, before they fire her for teaching you how to use her replacement machines.... (https://cdn.cogecolive.com/prod-20171024/generic_1508870944158552_ori.jpeg) Sadly they are fading both in official power and institutional knowledge of the behind the scenes workings of getting stuff done, for real.
The old used to protect the young and show the ropes while doing it, in a competent Union model (read: rarer today). Find your mentor. Note that your mentor may have goals opposite to yours, so remember that the phrase, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is wrong. The correct version is "the enemy of my enemy is my ally." The difference is that you never completely trust an ally. One of the lost tactics was protecting vulnerable employees, who were vulnerable merely because they were new/on probation (YOU). An older member with seniority and tenure would complain instead of the newer one, when management tried to abuse the newbies. You have a union. Who are its OFFICIAL senior members? Who are those in the union without position but with power: who do people listen to despite not holding a position. What have they accomplished? These are harder questions we can talk about in PM or something.
Background Note:
I was never in a union. I was often on the management's team. That stated, I wasn't a jerk about things and actually used logic and pragmatism to get things done. Sometimes I agreed with the union and worked with them. Other times I fought and won. O the war stories I couldn't tell.... Sometimes I fought them. Just, the morons who worked in healthcare but wanted to use a patient's photo on their union flier advertising a
I still recommend laying low, while discretely surveying the landscape. My old advice and tactics still apply. You are not ready to do anything about this. You don't have the intel., comms, recon, equipment, money, connections, or frankly anything to deal with this. Stay low, focus on being productive and out of the way: nose to the grindstone, not stepping on anyone's toes. For now, becuase you are so new, come in a bit early, leave a bit late. Do not be the problem your manager has to focus on. "I just ... I don't know what being a manager is about, but I'm sure you're busy with lots of problems and I just don't want to be one. You probably have enough to worry about, you know?" This will get the attention off you, and place you more towards the "I don't have to worry about this one," slot in your manager's consideration. Out of sight; out of mind; not a problem for manager = safer. They can't hate you for that. Be safe. Will keep in touch. Thank you for inclusion in this matter.
Final thought in this post:
You are making progress. It's all about forward motion and you are making that. No substance abuse, dealing with things better, better job, old boss is less and less likely to hurt you as time goes on.... These are all improvements. It's true that you aren't out of the woods yet, but you are closer to the forest's edge. Even then, there may still be problems, but you will be better equipped to deal with them.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 18, 2018, 01:07:32 am
Ask your grocery store cashier, while you can, before they fire her for teaching you how to use her replacement machines.... (https://cdn.cogecolive.com/prod-20171024/generic_1508870944158552_ori.jpeg)What is pictured is not really what is described here. The actual order of events was more like, companies WANTED to fire all the cashiers, but it turns out people are too stupid to use the self-checkout machines without help. The employee pictured isn't actually a cashier but an attendant whose job is to help people use the machines. That job won't go away as long as there are stupid people who can't use self-checkout machines.
As for the post in general I also want to offer an alternative point of view:
The world isn't actually that scary. Everything is going to be fine. You're going to be fine.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on November 18, 2018, 05:07:05 pm
Ask your grocery store cashier, while you can, before they fire her for teaching you how to use her replacement machines.... (https://cdn.cogecolive.com/prod-20171024/generic_1508870944158552_ori.jpeg)What is pictured is not really what is described here. The actual order of events was more like, companies WANTED to fire all the cashiers, but it turns out people are too stupid to use the self-checkout machines without help. The employee pictured isn't actually a cashier but an attendant whose job is to help people use the machines. That job won't go away as long as there are stupid people who can't use self-checkout machines.
They used to have a whole row of people with jobs. Now they just have 1 where there were 12.
So even if people don't get used to doing everything on their phones and machines and stuff (they're gonna) and that one person has a job, there are 11 who are screwed?
I'm pretty sure there are a LOT less people getting paid to work the checkout line than there used to be. WTF are you talking about? I don't think you get it.
12 jobs -11 jobs = 1 job. Not good. I always try to go to the regular old cashier in line, because I know that person probably can't do anything else for work.
As for the post in general I also want to offer an alternative point of view:
The world isn't actually that scary. Everything is going to be fine. You're going to be fine.
What am I supposed to do with this? Like, how is this supposed to help me? At all?
I'm glad you're doing well in this world. I really am. The rest of us might not be though.
We have problems and need help. So far T. and Tiruin are some of the only people who helped me, a lot actually.
I kinda feel like you're telling me to pipe down. My concerns don't matter. I should hush. Didn 't want to bother you.
Do you feel like you're better than me? You probably are. It's nice to be reminded of that while asking for help.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 18, 2018, 05:35:32 pm
What am I supposed to do with this? Like, how is this supposed to help me? At all?It helps if you let it.
Look at it this way. In a few decades you'll be dead and nothing will have changed. What happens between then and now is up to you. There's no point suffering during that time. Sit, breathe, remember everything is going to be fine.
The alternative is some batshit ascientific nonsense about dimensions with no mathematical rigour or meaning, which is basically the same as pyramids and crystals and Chopra, ie, a way to rationalise your suffering instead of stopping it.
Post by: Truean on November 18, 2018, 06:30:52 pm
What am I supposed to do with this? Like, how is this supposed to help me? At all?It helps if you let it.
Look at it this way. In a few decades you'll be dead and nothing will have changed. What happens between then and now is up to you. There's no point suffering during that time. Sit, breathe, remember everything is going to be fine.
The alternative is some batshit ascientific nonsense about dimensions with no mathematical rigour or meaning, which is basically the same as pyramids and crystals and Chopra, ie, a way to rationalise your suffering instead of stopping it.
O wow..... Here I was typing up a peacemaker post, about misunderstandings, and that I'm sure he wouldn't have said that to one of the people they're talking about replacing with machines..... I mean especially when they're asking for help.... We just got him out of a bad job.... But wow, "Look at it this way. In a few decades you'll be dead and nothing will have changed."..... Wow, that ... has to be the least hopeful thing I've heard in a while, and I... I'm saying that .... looking over my jade colored glasses rims.... Jesus. I've been cold as hell before but ... wow. I'm trying to be better.
Dude, are you ok man?
What ... are ... you doing?
Different people are in different positions, and a lot of them can't just "let it." Life isn't that easy, especially not for a lot of people.... There's nothing the retail clerk can do when the customer goes ballistic on them for no good reason, because that job pays the rent and food. People in that spot have no choice. If you read through this thread, OP has given examples like that....
This guy has some issues, is trying to avoid drinking, drugs, an unethical boss who got fired for being unethical, and stuff.... We worked through unethical boss, got him another job, stopped the drinking, and we're getting him stable. Have been, for a couple years now....
Say whatever you want. Two words, "It worked." Results. They happened, and keep happening.
This isn't the first time I'm helping someone here.... You're not trying to help him, not with statements like that.
So ask yourself within your own mind again what you are doing...? How do you expect anyone to respond to statements like you made?
You are ad homming the OP, when they've done nothing to you. He has never done anything but ask for help we could give. Please, tell me this is clicking? Jesus, a little empathy, and compassion?
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 18, 2018, 07:55:06 pm
Say whatever you want. Two words, "It worked." Results. They happened, and keep happening.Then why is there still, clearly, a person still suffering?
The ego produces the illusion of results because it fears change; there is a part of every person that would rather descend into fear and bitterness than become a different (ie better) person, and that part will convince you that you are doing better because you've gotten used to the pain.
There is a way to simply... not have the pain.
Quote
You are ad homming the OP, when they've done nothing to you. He has never done anything but ask for help we could give. Please, tell me this is clicking? Jesus, a little empathy, and compassion?I don't think you understand what empathy and compassion are. You definitely don't understand what an ad hominem is.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on November 18, 2018, 08:42:26 pm
Say whatever you want. Two words, "It worked." Results. They happened, and keep happening.Then why is there still, clearly, a person still suffering?
The ego produces the illusion of results because it fears change; there is a part of every person that would rather descend into fear and bitterness than become a different (ie better) person, and that part will convince you that you are doing better because you've gotten used to the pain.
There is a way to simply... not have the pain.QuoteYou are ad homming the OP, when they've done nothing to you. He has never done anything but ask for help we could give. Please, tell me this is clicking? Jesus, a little empathy, and compassion?I don't think you understand what empathy and compassion are. You definitely don't understand what an ad hominem is.
Before I had a boss framing me for something I didn't do. She's fired and I have a new job I'm not as scared of.
Before I drank too much. Now I don't.
I was in a bad place and now I'm not.
It's not perfect but it's improvement.
T helped me through some stuff I was so worried about I couldn't even sleep.
You made fun of me, told me nothing I would do would matter, and then told me this:
There is a way to simply... not have the pain.
But you're just gonna call everybody but you weak and stupid instead of saying it what it is?
You're wrong. You're not here to help. You're derailing my thread.
Get out now. You're either cruel or trolling.
Post again and I'm pressing report.
Post by: Truean on November 18, 2018, 08:49:01 pm
Don't engage. Just don't. Toady's got enough stuff on his plate. Just don't read the stuff he posts to make you upset. You're doing better. Remember?
Better job, better living situation, no drinking. You're doing better and making progress over two years ago.
It's all about forward motion. Improving. It'll keep slowly gettingv better. Email me. Don't engage like this.
Post by: Maximum Spin on November 18, 2018, 08:51:13 pm
I accept your rejection, I forgive you, and I wish you luck.
Post by: Tiruin on November 20, 2018, 05:57:45 am
And that includes the language you use to put degrees of intensity to what you're talking about. The last posts there are unhelpful in content other than the one above this; they're untactful. Please do not attack other people by stating what they do or do not understand and instead just clarify your position because it will make it a lot more difficult for your future workload by trying to interpret another's ideas without communicating with them (and in turn having a clear idea yourself, because it'll be demeaning). The benefit of things in an open forum is you have all the time in the world to hit that post button, and all the time afterwards to Modify the content; everything else is self-defined towards what was done when it's your work and action in the end.
It will help to stop seeing things as if there's one (or a few) clear cut ways to understand others' suffering, because a basic of a person's concern is avoiding stress. When they have this locus of control with them, it'll help--but it won't fix "suffering" because the world is a lot larger in scale, especially when people (and their lived experiences or timelines of their life) are connected to events and situations on "why people are affected". It's never the case that people think the world is scary, but whatever makes this an idea is with experiences they themselves have personally been through. Judging a person otherwise because of the presence of resistance, assumed or otherwise, to what is written will cause you to lose track in your own reasoning towards the situation. That's the basic understanding of when people ask compassion or empathy; to fit in their agency to the situation. I slotted in the context of agency here for anyone curious.
Spoiler: Morestuff (click to show/hide)
Anyway before everything when those posts happened, I am curious (needn't be answered here) towards the connections you have RPL. As in, the people around you including awareness of what you have there to connect to other people in your area. Having a social network (or connection to professionals) can help a lot. And apologizes if I forgot details in the meantime (PMs can answer anything that you're uncomfortable with in public if you're interested)
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on February 14, 2019, 12:04:57 pm
I am getting good feedback, in writting from people at work in power. My supervisor likes me and leaves me alone most of the time. He has said my work is good and appreciates the dedication. There are some people who are weirdly not cool with me. I mostly keep to myself and don't cause trouble. Supervisors seem to like me/ what I do. I get compliments. This is just about a complete 180 From my last job.
I still do not trust people, but I am polite and a bit helpful at times. Far away but I guess ok. I pretty much just threw myself into the work and try to make the people I think are calling shots happy.
Doesn't feel nearly as bad as before, but that left me with some stress. I don't know.
I do have some aquiantances at work. I have some friends I haven't seen much or at all in years. Family is weird and fighty. So there's that.
Thoughts (Hopefully nicer ones)
Post by: birdy51 on February 14, 2019, 08:00:02 pm
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on February 15, 2019, 10:15:22 am
I am trying and have been sober almost a year now. I don't exactly like the addiction treatment stuff, but T was right it works. And I don't think I'm being set up to fail at work like last time.
Sure, some tips sound nice. The only part that kinda sucks about getting tips online is that people online can be super mean sometimes. Pretty much read any comments section of anything. But yeah some people here have been nicer than I probably deserve and I am really glad for that.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on February 16, 2019, 12:47:54 pm
Nope. Got that year chip soon.
Post by: birdy51 on February 16, 2019, 06:33:02 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also, hey. It takes energy to be nice sometimes. If people are nice, then I think deep down, you've earned a bit of that niceness, and that means you are a cooler dude than you think my man. Might not be always easy to think that, but it's true. Keep up your good work; you'll have that chip here soon before you know it!
Post by: hector13 on February 16, 2019, 11:37:30 pm
There are some people who are weirdly not cool with me. I mostly keep to myself and don't cause trouble.
These two things are probably related, depending on the extent you “keep to yourself”. I once had an immediate superior not like me because I didn’t really talk with her, which she apparently took to mean I disliked her as opposed to just being disinterested.
Never underestimate the power of idle conversation. A quick “hello, how are you, lovely/awful weather we’re having” at least makes you seem personable, and is a foundation for further relationship should you do wish it.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on February 19, 2019, 12:08:24 pm
Ye. No worries here! My goal is just to share a few tricks that I've picked up recently, as somebody who had gone unarmed against anxiety for a long time. I'll go ahead an spoiler it for space's sake.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also, hey. It takes energy to be nice sometimes. If people are nice, then I think deep down, you've earned a bit of that niceness, and that means you are a cooler dude than you think my man. Might not be always easy to think that, but it's true. Keep up your good work; you'll have that chip here soon before you know it!
That's actually pretty helpful and kind of a bit like what T said. One of the difficulties I have is not imagining people out to screw me over sometimes. Not always, but.... It's just that it's happened before..... I tend to get stuck on past issues and fear of their repetition. Bad stuff happened before....
Thank you. It helps. Just.... fruistratingly slowly with my life. T did say it wouldn't be an overnight thing, and it's like a drill bit, little bg little.
There are some people who are weirdly not cool with me. I mostly keep to myself and don't cause trouble.
These two things are probably related, depending on the extent you “keep to yourself”. I once had an immediate superior not like me because I didn’t really talk with her, which she apparently took to mean I disliked her as opposed to just being disinterested.
Never underestimate the power of idle conversation. A quick “hello, how are you, lovely/awful weather we’re having” at least makes you seem personable, and is a foundation for further relationship should you do wish it.
Yeah. I just go for under the radar. I figure if I can just not piss anybody off while being productive I might be ok. I mean you hear stories of people telling an off center joke at work and HR smacking somebody for it. I'd rather not have that happen. I don't think I would be that person. But I have no idea anymore, the HR powerpoint training scares me, and shutting up seems safe?
Maybe very mild small talk might be ok. Nobody can get pissed off at me about the weather. I mean, I didn't do that one.
Another thing is my lack of a life. Other people have one and they talk about it. I don't have other things in my life, or not good ones. T and Tiruin kind of said stuff on this like being polite and asking people to talk about themselves by showing interest and asking about their stuff without being weird. T gave the example of a lady at work whose kid does ballet. Its kind of not earth shattering, but she clearly cares about it and talks about it a lot. So, T seem to listen politely and "gently encourage her" to continue. Like, "I bet that took some doing, or "sounds like your daughter put a lot of work into that," or like, "that sounds competitive." I just have not mastered BSing like that yet, I guess. Knowing my luck, I'd choose the exact wrong thing to say about some coworker's kid and HR would have a fit.
This is harder than I thought.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on February 21, 2019, 10:14:34 am
Oddly, there is now an upstream issue where I have had no work for two weeks. This is weird. Boss says he is ok with it, applogized and said to keep good documentation explaining it. I asked him four times so far for status updates. He gives them, but they don't always come through. I know there is tons of stuff but has to be processed before it gets to me so I can do my thing with it. I understand there is also a new person in the upstream position and others are also having issues. Further, boss has sort of hinted at this in a meeting with everyone present. As long as he is ok..... Still a part of me wonders a lot, and I don't mind being busy.
I worry. I am doing some minor stuff or I guess admin stuff until then. Boss has said it isn't my fault and we're good but still.
Post by: Doomblade187 on February 21, 2019, 05:16:24 pm
Alternatively, if there is literature or training regarding your position, or ways you could improve your workflow, work on those.
Please note that I am assuming that having no work means having to sit idle.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on February 22, 2019, 11:05:23 am
But yeah, also going through training and paperwork etc.
Weird.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on February 22, 2019, 12:44:25 pm
I followed T's advice and tried to make his job easier and run some documentation for why my productivity is out that makes everyone look ok. And the higher ups should be alright with it.
Post by: Doomblade187 on February 22, 2019, 07:25:56 pm
Another conversation with boss. He appologized, reassigned the bottleneck work, and told me to go to lunch long.Sounds like you're doing well with it! Providing documentation for your work or lack thereof is helpful to all.
I followed T's advice and tried to make his job easier and run some documentation for why my productivity is out that makes everyone look ok. And the higher ups should be alright with it.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on March 06, 2019, 11:59:41 pm
New development my supervisor is switchjng to another newly promoted person. Old supervisor is promoted to new supervisor's boss..... I like old supervisor. I think new supervisor will be ok. and they are working on transition. It just is a big thing. It is an adjustment. I really wish things would stay still to let me catch up with life, but yeah....
There is some worry there.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on May 30, 2019, 04:51:47 pm
I've been basically following T's advice and some others here too I guess about NOT being the problem he has to worry about. The whole "come in early, leave late, work your ass off, be helpful and don't complain," thing from T, seems to be doing ok. The stuff about internal projects didn't seem to hit but o well. I guess he is happy he does not have to fix my screw ups, "So I can fix the other screw ups."
Some of my coworkers might not be happy about it. No idea what to make of that mess, so I'm thinking I just avoid the hell out of it.
So far the documenting lack of work stuff hasn't come up yet. One of the high up regional executives made specific note of it and ordered more stuff for us to work on and was a little upset about it but I think he didn't seem mad at us about it. Its possible he knows there wasn't shit we could do about it.
Same problems as before, but I guess I'm dealing with them better than before. Things are still fucked up, but they aren't getting worse, maybe a little better. Psychological stuff is there, although I'm still sober, that's hard. Low energy but seemingly working it somehow?
Post by: Doomblade187 on June 01, 2019, 12:41:48 am
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on June 06, 2019, 03:01:48 pm
Part of leaving was going to work farther away, so I have to drive further though. That means more time driving and less everything elseing like sleep. Sooooo there's that....
Also, the place I am at is expanding, bht some coworkers are hopefully joking about a reduction in force. I think they're teasing, on account of how hard work was to get for a while there. I wrote about it here too. They even said if that happens it would be a couple years out and by then I should be safe. Still it shook me a lot. It took me a lot to get this job, and I am again grateful for the help cause I didn't do it alone, but yeah. The idea scared the hell out of me. Also they razed me about applying for promotion when my supervisor told me to....
I am safe, productive and liked. My supervisor's boss called me a blessing, cause he never has to worry about me. I know I am ok, but mentally it jarred me. You can't expand and double in size whilw hiring like hell and lay off in a union shop lile that. No idea why it shook me like that. Also honestly, that was not the nicest thing for them to do.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on June 15, 2019, 05:48:06 am
It's a little nerve wracking. Also I have a new supervisor again. He seems fairly nice, and this is viewed as a step up for me.
I did not get the promotion though, or interviewed and old supervisor was surprised they didn't even interview me. O well. Everyone says there was a predetermined candidate and we'll just see who got it. I was asked to apply and did. Its been whispered that they just wanted more people to apply so that it didn't look so obvious they had someone in mind beforehand.
As long as I break even....
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on June 18, 2019, 08:42:46 pm
Seems I upset some people by applying too but no idea why.
I do not want to be seen as a threat to anybody.
Meh, I'm just keeping my head down and ignoring threats.
Head down, nose to grindstone, not trying to make anybody mad.
Post by: Iduno on June 20, 2019, 08:38:39 am
OK, so not getting promotion and don't care about it. I just wanna move on.
Seems I upset some people by applying too but no idea why.
I do not want to be seen as a threat to anybody.
Meh, I'm just keeping my head down and ignoring threats.
Head down, nose to grindstone, not trying to make anybody mad.
Even I think you're fatalistic, and I'm broken as shit.
Not caring you got the promotion is good. Just make sure you don't burn yourself out trying to impress people who only care about how good they look (through using people up). Once you get worn out enough, you don't recover.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on June 20, 2019, 02:40:31 pm
I'm just trying to get through some weird situations. So far I've managed with a lot of help from T and Tiruin, and some other people. Still wish they'd show up more but I guess o well. Not a whole lot I can do about another person's refusal to post or whatever.
I don't know if this helps you at all, but I sure do hope it does. Hang in there. I was in some kinda dark places before. It's not all great but things are better than they were. I still have a ways to go but yeah.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on July 09, 2019, 06:21:14 pm
Post by: hector13 on July 09, 2019, 06:56:09 pm
Do you know why people are upset? I assume it’s something to do with you applying for a promotion.
Post by: nenjin on July 09, 2019, 07:56:01 pm
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on December 14, 2019, 02:29:09 pm
New supervisor has liked me over the past few months. There was one stupid incident he said I spent too much time on, but he has since informally said I was right....
He gave me really high formal performance evaluations on everything except numbers. He said he wanted to leave that high too but someone told him there was just no way. He and several others have repeatedly assured me numbers are low everywhere and not to worry about it. I am still leary about it, but I did get average on that score. Everything else is high and I have been told not to worry. I am still on probation, but I got a slight pay bump from the eval. Its a small raise but I can't be doing too bad if that's there.
I am being focused on quality and away from crappy coworkers, some of them basically can't be fired. Must be nice. Anyhow, unofficially I'm doing good and am relied upon. Bad, tenured co worker is getting talked to by our supervisor for phoning it in. We are trying a "reset" concerning that crap, because supervisor doesn't want to be seen as complainy and the problem. So this is another chance for coworker and we're just pushing past it while moving on. Whatever boss says.
If it were me in that, it would be my ass getting kicked. This other guy, who knows. He's upset and complains while phoning it in. I shut up and do as I'm told. No clue what's up there.
Supervisor has said coworker is mad at me for making him look bad just cause co worker doesn't put in the effort. So nenjin was right on that. I have no idea how to work through the stuff they gave us to do without lots of effort. Supervisor has called this workload we were assigned "a shit show."
Post by: hector13 on December 15, 2019, 10:16:22 am
Don’t get too worried about it. If you are indeed doing well in other areas, they won’t be too bothered if you’re average in something else. Indeed, they would be providing you with some help if they think it’s a genuine problem.
As for your co-worker that phones it in... that’s not your problem. He can be mad at you all he wants, it doesn’t have any bearing on your responsibilities.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on December 18, 2019, 12:52:32 pm
So really, I get the eval isn't objective, except the numbers we produce per week.... That's still BS because assignment vary widely in difficulty but are all counted the same. I've been told I'm doing great and that there are problems but I'm not one of them.
Actually T made a good point in email that I didn't think of. My coworker doesn't have legit bearing on my responsibility/responsibilities. But, my boss looks at it differently. My boss has a bunch of stuff to get done and only this team to do it with. So coworker gets the tasks he can do, and I get the harder ones I can do. Kinda sucks because coworker has been there much longer. T has a weird point though. Said something about how you guys are the tools your boss has to get stuff done with. Boss has to do something with us and coworker can't do much else. I can, but it feels unfair and exhausting.
Post by: Iduno on December 18, 2019, 05:04:27 pm
I think (and have been informally told) that people understand there are tons of one time changes happening now. There is going to be disruption from that no matter what. Nobody wants to acknowledge it....
So really, I get the eval isn't objective, except the numbers we produce per week.... That's still BS because assignment vary widely in difficulty but are all counted the same. I've been told I'm doing great and that there are problems but I'm not one of them.
Actually T made a good point in email that I didn't think of. My coworker doesn't have legit bearing on my responsibility/responsibilities. But, my boss looks at it differently. My boss has a bunch of stuff to get done and only this team to do it with. So coworker gets the tasks he can do, and I get the harder ones I can do. Kinda sucks because coworker has been there much longer. T has a weird point though. Said something about how you guys are the tools your boss has to get stuff done with. Boss has to do something with us and coworker can't do much else. I can, but it feels unfair and exhausting.
In a meeting, we were talking about when we report our accomplishments. One of the new people asked as question, and I answered something to the effect that "we just count the number of things we did, even though the time required varies wildly." The agreement of 100% of my coworkers and boss felt good there, but probably less good than if that wasn't true.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on December 19, 2019, 07:34:39 pm
Its just rough getting the shit assignments and keeping it all together and motivated. At least in the background I get some props for doing shit right and being a help. Only problem is the number of things I do isn't so high cause they all suck, but nobody else wants it. My supervisor has written this. So at least theres that. Still, some days I get depressed about it, but I'm still not drinking anymore, so thats good.
I cant help but resent coworker being like that though. Its like, what did he expect me to do. Its not like I could phone it in just cause he did. He gets away with that but it just wouldn't fly if I tried.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on January 11, 2020, 08:59:48 pm
Supervisor is just tired and can't get rid of coworker.
Good news being I have a good reason I am not infringing on coworker's definition of his turf....
Supervisor has chosen to view this as a good thing because coworker is now engaged....
Nope not really, he's just whining... also changing his story bepending on who he's talking to....
Its also not coworker's turf anyhow, but boss can't fire him.
Overall, boss and I have a good relationship and boss has said coworker is jealous/looking bad. Boss can relate.
I might be like, "He (coworker) is really doing this unproductive stuff? OK, I get it, but he did this before and I kind of feel sorry fir him if he's resorting to this..... ."
Then just keep focusing on the job and providing solutions.
T said if I just keep focused on things and if the powers that be are ok with it I'll be ok.
I kinda want her back here.
Post by: hector13 on January 12, 2020, 12:01:35 am
You’re not doing anything wrong, and the co-worker has form for being a whiner (it seems anyway) so they shouldn’t really be able to cause problems for you, especially if the boss is on your side.
Post by: Zebra2 on January 17, 2020, 02:46:45 pm
I've been having a really hard time not feeling like I'm screwing up, disappointing everyone, and am just not adequate. It doesn't help that in one of these past bad experiences those feelings were kinda validated when everything fell apart and I pretty much broke down. I'm trying really hard to not feel like I'm reliving that time now, cause I know if I give into that it will make everything worse.
There are some good anxiety/stress tips in here. Just wanted to drop in to say it helps, and that I can relate.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on January 21, 2020, 10:24:28 pm
Anyhow, supervisor has "had it up to here" with co worker, who will be getting a bad review.......... Part of that is that he was supposed to mentor me a bit but has completely not. Also, he has gone against boss behind his back with stupid comments.
Supervisor gave me a heads up that he won't involve me in writing, but if coworker asks why bad reviews, then he may have no choice but to include me..... I am far from the only reason coworker is getting bad review but yeah. Boss said he has my back cause I am watching his... Said I did the right thing telling him. Basically let me know ahead of time that he and coworker will come and butt heads.
Post by: Iduno on January 22, 2020, 09:25:05 am
I guess I'm just glad its helping. Although all efforts to get T back have so far been met with cat memes.
Anyhow, supervisor has "had it up to here" with co worker, who will be getting a bad review.......... Part of that is that he was supposed to mentor me a bit but has completely not. Also, he has gone against boss behind his back with stupid comments.
Supervisor gave me a heads up that he won't involve me in writing, but if coworker asks why bad reviews, then he may have no choice but to include me..... I am far from the only reason coworker is getting bad review but yeah. Boss said he has my back cause I am watching his... Said I did the right thing telling him. Basically let me know ahead of time that he and coworker will come and butt heads.
So your boss has your back, unless he gets questioned, in which case he will lie and blame everything on you? That sounds far too familiar.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on January 26, 2020, 02:10:59 pm
No idea. No idea and trying not to let it get to me.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on February 09, 2020, 12:58:34 pm
I did exactly what supervisor said. Higher up boss did not like. I warned supervisor of this in advance.... At least he took some of the heat voluntarily. He said he didn't know what he was doing.... It's been rough and half my team has flaked out. If push comes to shove I can prove all of it but that sounds like it would piss people off even if I'm right.
I think I'm still okish. Could've been way worse. Supervisor took charge and well.... Now its a little odd but he hasn't been as hands on since that. At least mot to the point of doing it himself.
Post by: Stadfradt on February 18, 2020, 10:26:25 pm
That said, I just can't stand people asking me question when I clearly either a.) don't want to talk about it b.) don't have an answer and they know these things or should. It's like they feel entitled to speak/question regardless of the other person who doesn't want to be in the conversation and a favorite phrase of theirs seems to be "I'm just saying." Yup, I knew. Still wishing that wasn't the case. I ask people to stop and they just look at me like I'm nuts.
...I realize the following:
A.) This is at least partially my problem. Probably more than partially.
B.) People are going to always keep asking questions (stupid or otherwise) even and especially if you don't want them to.
C.) I need to find some way to deal with this on my end, because there is no other option.
...Ideas?
Please and thank you.
1. It IS your problem. IRL people are genuinely as stupid as the dwarves in DF are. I'm not exaggerating: About half the population have double-digit IQs. You are the person who has to learn to deal with that. It's just the way it is.
2. It's NOT always your problem. Some people are malicious. Learning to deal with them is your problem, though. You just have to be the better person, act well, and learn to be civil with people you hate.
3. What is obvious to you is not obvious to others, so...
4. Honesty is a great policy. Calmly repeating, "I am not discussing this," or, "I do not know the answer no matter how many times you ask" is about the best you can do.
5. One time I asked a guy what he does to cure boredom. When he gave a lame answer, I said that I had guaranteed solution to curing the most extreme boredom: "I ask the person talking to shut up." You can wrap the truth with humor, and it's amazingly effective.
6. If all else fails, get cancer and survive it, it'll put things in perspective.
7. Go to your local boxing, MMA, judo, or Brazilian jiu-jitsu gym, in that order of preference. That's not a joke.
8. Read "Beyond the Picket Fence" by Marc MacYoung.
My apologies for not reading all the replies to your post. I'm sure there are many replies better than mine. ^_^
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on March 15, 2020, 05:28:05 pm
Its never someone else's problem that somebody can't controll themselves. It doesn't matter how horrible they are when they try to make it someone else's problem. If someone throws their issues onto somebody else, then the person doing the throwing is wrong. It doesn't matter if you are throwing a rock or a problem. It doesn't often matter what the excuse is. That is how a lot of substance abusers treat people around them.
People are more than ok to be hurt when something or some abuse gets thrown at them. It does matter, and like much of the world, I can't just suck it up forever without some greater help. Yeah, its not the worst thing ever but it still sucks, and dealing with it is hard. In a better world the stupid customer yelling at and threatening the store clerk over something they can't controll would be rightfully seen as at fault. I and a whole lot of others have been that clerk.
Yes we're hurt by it. No, we aint wrong for it or for trying to find a way through it. there is no simple magic answer, or of there is, then somebody would've sold it already for a lot of money.
Meanwhile my boss is at least saying he is ok with me. And he seems to be convincing about it. He is still kinda lost and oddly I have to guide this guy. At least he flat out tells me he doesn't know. Saves a lot of time convincing things.
I do the best I can in a system that is down literally 10 or more times a week and when it is up, it doesn't work right. Everybody hates this new system. Boss was initially looking at me funny but I showed him and had the people who help with this email that it was not working with proof. Now he at least sees the issues are real. He seems to get it, but I can't be sure. Literally everyone in the place hates this new stuff. They bring up the issues at staff meetings and the very high level people just sent an email acknowledging it. Basically they spent a ton on this program that ... maybe works sometimes when it wants. Not stable. I have a history of doing this work well, so does everyone else. It aint us..... Just hope they consistently get that.
_________________________________________________
I'm trying to keep going forward, find things to do to improve, and keep going. It's hard, but really it's the only thing I know to do.
Post by: bloop_bleep on March 24, 2020, 12:06:10 pm
Also, this:
5. One time I asked a guy what he does to cure boredom. When he gave a lame answer, I said that I had guaranteed solution to curing the most extreme boredom: "I ask the person talking to shut up." You can wrap the truth with humor, and it's amazingly effective.
Seems disproportionately rude for someone just telling you about their leisure activities at your request that you find uninteresting. It's ok to not always want to be engaged in conversation, but it doesn't take much effort to show respect when you turn someone down.
Post by: Doomblade187 on March 25, 2020, 12:56:07 am
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on March 28, 2020, 04:10:47 pm
It just seems like everyone today sees something makes an assumption (usually a bad one) and then they're all upset. I don't know if it's always been like this, but I completely see it now.
This whole Covid-19 thing is just going to make things worse, because it is just going to put more stress on everyone.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on April 02, 2020, 08:31:30 pm
For now, I'm lucky to be able to work from home. I do not know how long that will last, but hopefully through this whole thing.
I get that I'm lucky to have a job at all when a ton of people are probably gonna get laid off. I don't know: different bad problems.
I just seem overwhelmed, like I guess a lot of people are. Anxiety, depression, and everything about the world kind of going to hell, is a bit much. It's hard to remain productive and focused locked inside. I understand why we have to, but it's just hard.
I can't be the only one feeling this way.
Post by: Iduno on April 03, 2020, 09:54:29 am
Covid 19 edition:
For now, I'm lucky to be able to work from home. I do not know how long that will last, but hopefully through this whole thing.
I get that I'm lucky to have a job at all when a ton of people are probably gonna get laid off. I don't know: different bad problems.
I just seem overwhelmed, like I guess a lot of people are. Anxiety, depression, and everything about the world kind of going to hell, is a bit much. It's hard to remain productive and focused locked inside. I understand why we have to, but it's just hard.
I can't be the only one feeling this way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lQ_MjU4QHw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lQ_MjU4QHw)
Edit: I've tried a 3-4 threads trying to get people together to do stuff here in the last few weeks, but Bay12 doesn't have a lot of joiners.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on March 11, 2021, 09:31:12 am
I know I haven't posted on this thread for a bit, but it's a decent thread and I've gotten some helpful advice from some of the more experienced people here like "T" and Birdy, etc (there are a lot and I can't type you call but I'm grateful). Plus, honestly COVID has messed up my schedule just terribly, so if anyone is wondering about timing....
Speaking of timing, I've got some weird stress because I do not know how to tell my immediate supervisor something about a new situation that's developed with our productivity pipeline at work. Big issue, we are not adapting well to new changing metrics and a hopefully temporary road block that has come up. What we work on is divided into "units," and we need to more carefully manage these. I have no idea how to approach this with my boss to help him manage it better (for all of our sakes and I do not want to come off as out of my lane/place, etc.).
We had a massive damn backlog forever and we are finally clearing that up soon. Basically forever (years), we've had a sort of system in place where you were supposed to do a certain amount of "units" per week and you were rated at how many you did. More was better. This scale tops out at 15 units per week, and that is considered just freaking amazing.
That backlog is going away, and management is switching to a more time sensitive approach instead of productivity. So now they've added a new metric: % of units done within 60 days of assignment. The higher your percentage of units done within 60 days of assignment the better. They are allegedly going to get rid of the numbers requirement, but we'll see. Point is, the stuff is now time sensitive within 60 days of ASSIGNMENT.
Yesterday, my supervisor called me. He has completely run himself out of work for right now. We are the most productive team in the whole damn place and actually people (Including higher ups) are sort of ... low key upset at us for it. We are not getting assigned new "units" for right now. He does not know what to do with himself, because he processes those units before I/the rest of us do. Coworker and I have a personal assignment log of about 130 units each. However, they seem to have cut our team off "to balance us out with the rest of the teams." My boss has stated that we no longer have to keep up a breakneck pace, and that we have proved ourselves and should not run ourselves out of cases to "cut off our nose to spite our face." He has told me to slow down in this phone call because we can't run out of cases like this with the backlog going away and there is a temporary kink in the supply line (COVID).
OK, PROBLEM. Math.... New 60 day assignment deadline....
Division: 137/60 days = 2.28.
Division: 137/2 (months) = 68.5 per month....
68.5/4 (weeks) is about 17.125/week.
*The unit per week scale tops out at 15, but in order to get the stuff assigned currently we'd have to do over 17/week.
*This at a time when he's saying to slow down to stretch out work so we don't temporarily run out of it....
Slow down (but keep going faster)?
The management has told him we are not getting new units for a while to "balance us out" against the other teams....
Supervisor seems to be coming realizing (after he ran himself out of work) that we need to ration this a bit and spread it out to avoid burnout/runout of work (for a bit before they do it all over again). However, he is still devoted to the First in First Out, assigning it all right away.
He does not understand (or want to understand) that HE controls the assignments and he could plan this out so we stretch out the units as he is hinting at/saying on the phone (not in writing). I have no idea how to tell him this or suggest how to fix it.
If he actually wanted to smooth out these massive waves and valleys, he could assign X amount per worker per week and just sit on them for a little bit (like a week or whatever, these things have been sitting for about 4 years, and one more week isn't going to kill anything). Then he would end up with worker A assigned ... 10 per week, worker B assigned 10, etc, etc. That way we could work within the 60 day deadline and spread them out like he is saying. As of right now, I have 137 to do in the next 60 days, and as above, that is like 17/week. Co workers have about the same.
This is a fixable problem if he would just assign them to plan out a work week. He controls when they are assigned. He can set the date the assignment starts the 60 day clock. As it stands, my coworkers and I are going to have no choice but to disobey either him or the 60 day deadline, because we can't slow down and still meet the 60 day deadline at the same time. We did not create this problem. This is an administrative hiccup and we are the most productive team in the place that is being told to slow down (not given new units so we even out with the other teams). I suspect we also cannot "officially do anything" like slowing down work, even though everyone does it, because otherwise we end up with huge stop/start problems. I mean, even the management higher ups are upset and cutting us off from new units for a while to "balance us out." The unofficial nature of this policy/practice is something we can't say, but must do like everyone else. I can't go from doing 17/week for 2 months to 0 per week for ... 1 or 2 months? We need to adapt to this COVID hiccup.
I have no idea how to approach my boss about this. I do not want to be seen as stepping on his toes or otherwise not be respectful or something. I also can't "officially" do or suggest this (even though he unofficially told me to over the phone like I'm pretty sure everyone else is doing so there's nothing in writing). We have to be smart about this, because as things stand, a.) this is unworkable, b.) everyone is upset at us even some of the higher ups (cutting us off from getting new work units given to us to do, and c.) this will bite us later on.
How in the hell do I deal with this? I've seen (if you've read the thread parts before) angry customers, "Karens" demanding impossible things, etc. I have never had to deal with trying to guide my boss into doing something that will save the damn team (or at least fend off ruin for a bit). I can't do 17/week (or more) and the scale tops out at 15 anyhow, while slowing down to spread stuff out so we don't run out and look awful. (This isn't my job anyhow, and I don't get paid for this level of stuff but I can't let it mess us up bad).
How on earth to I approach this? Thank you for your consideration.
Edit: To be clear, supervisor could click a button, to "unassign" the unit, then click another button to "reassign" the unit and restart the 60 day clock over and solve this whole thing. Or just stagger out assignments....
Post by: Maximum Spin on March 11, 2021, 12:38:22 pm
One of the keys to persuasion is to phrase it as if it's his idea and you're just agreeing - in this case by asking him if he "already thought that" (while really trying to make him think it).
But, frankly, this new metric doesn't sound like a deadline, either. You want to maximise the percent completed within 60 days, but that doesn't mean it has to be 100% as opposed to, say, 90%.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on March 11, 2021, 01:16:37 pm
But um, it kind of really is a deadline though, but it's just sort of graded/graduated.
You get a 5 if you get 95% completion. 4 if 90% completed, and 3 if 85% completed within 60 days. If you get below a 3 (a 2 or hopefully not a 1), then you have major problems and had better get it above a 3 before HR sees it, basically. You get a 2 and you're losing your job or in danger of it, and nobody wants that. The problem is, that's my margin in case shit happens. I don't want to use that on a structural thing that is not my fault at all, especially if it just repeats. I could eventually screw up myself (just because I'm not god and nothing is). The higher your score on a 1-5 system, the better off you are. So, pretty much lowering ratings numbers sucks, particularly when it is absolutely not your fault.
We are not getting new things to work on for at least another 8 weeks or so and very probably longer. Why are we front loading this junk. It just... yeah.
I do like the idea of having it be "his idea." Always willing to listen to something constructive in the advice that any of you might have. I"ve gotten a lot better, especially in the early part of this thread from "T" and Birdy but there's still a ton I don't get. I've been sober for a few years now thanks to them getting me into AA, and I have a better job. I have about 14 or so months until I get my 5 year chip. Things aren't perfect but they're a hell of a lot better than they were, and they were bad.
Post by: Robot Parade Leader on March 16, 2021, 02:26:25 pm
They are going to be slowing us down and cutting us back to "even out the work." I'm sorry, WTF?
Some of our units from that large thing I posted about are going to be reassigned, but we are backdoor organizing just getting tons of them done ASAP so they are done before they take them away. We are the most productive team in the place. So, we are not slacking to create that pile of units. We're just evidently that good.
Somehow this is a "concern." I have no idea why this is the case in this instance that it is a "concern," meaning "problem." Everything "T" taught me about pulling myself out of the damn gutter was about being productive and efficient and here's the higher ups saying that's a "concern" now. They beat productivity into us FOREVER, and now it's an issue????
I'm "too productive," but also worried about having work.... So much for bootstraps and pulling yourself up by them or whatever. What the #$@% is this? Told to slow down, then speed up so it doesn't get taken away.
How am I both worried about having work but "too productive." ....
Post by: Maximum Spin on March 16, 2021, 02:37:53 pm
Also, it appears my team is "too productive."Unfortunately, this kind of shit happens... most likely you're making the other teams look bad and that's upsetting them, and management has decided to prioritise making other groups feel better over getting more money (which happens way more often than you'd think). I don't really think there's anything you can do about that other than doing exactly what you're told to the best of your ability (which still doesn't guarantee they won't screw you over). It's one of those things, and I really feel for you, but there's just... no solution.
They are going to be slowing us down and cutting us back to "even out the work." I'm sorry, WTF?
Some of our units from that large thing I posted about are going to be reassigned, but we are backdoor organizing just getting tons of them done ASAP so they are done before they take them away. We are the most productive team in the place. So, we are not slacking to create that pile of units. We're just evidently that good.
Somehow this is a "concern." I have no idea why this is the case in this instance that it is a "concern," meaning "problem." Everything "T" taught me about pulling myself out of the damn gutter was about being productive and efficient and here's the higher ups saying that's a "concern" now. They beat productivity into us FOREVER, and now it's an issue????
I'm "too productive," but also worried about having work.... So much for bootstraps and pulling yourself up by them or whatever. What the #$@% is this? Told to slow down, then speed up so it doesn't get taken away.
How am I both worried about having work but "too productive." ....
Post by: Domaryx on March 19, 2021, 06:48:11 am
Problems with stress and being upset
I get really anxious, stressed and upset Not quite "angry," because that makes you think of somebody screaming at the top of their lungs or punching somebody. Not it.
That said, I just can't stand people asking me question when I clearly either a.) don't want to talk about it b.) don't have an answer and they know these things or should. It's like they feel entitled to speak/question regardless of the other person who doesn't want to be in the conversation and a favorite phrase of theirs seems to be "I'm just saying." Yup, I knew. Still wishing that wasn't the case. I ask people to stop and they just look at me like I'm nuts.
I realize the following:
A.) This is at least partially my problem. Probably more than partially.
B.) People are going to always keep asking questions (stupid or otherwise) even and especially if you don't want them to.
C.) I need to find some way to deal with this on my end, because there is no other option.
It's not an anger problem yet but I just .... it gets to me a lot.
Ideas?
Please and thank you.
It provides me with meditation and working out emotions, quality food and a good movie. Sometimes go somewhere where there are no people for a week
Post by: EuchreJack on April 17, 2021, 02:07:31 pm
Middle management exists to keep the people who are in power away from the people who do the work. Simple as that. Social lubricant. Generally speaking, the best thing you can do for them is to be nice when you are interacting with them, because everyone else is yelling at them.
Remember also that people don't own ideas. Sure, maybe certain ideas are worth patenting and selling, but most are just good thoughts that may be worth sharing in a non-committal way. If someone else likes that idea, then maybe they adopt the idea. It won't be the only good idea you have, I'm sure. If the boss takes the credit, that is not a bad thing in any way, since they're also taking the blame if any problems occur. Plus, they like you, and having the boss like you is great. Unless your co-workers know. So don't be blatantly obvious.
Some bosses don't want to hear from others. Some do want to hear from everyone, but they don't have the time.
I can't work for other people, so take any advice on office/work politics with a grain of salt.
Most people have problems. LOTS of problems. Like, "I'd rather just not know they got those problems" problems. Nobody is alone in this.
I hope your hours are staying the same. Losing work hours sucks.