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[Superdorf]

I mean, I don't know how would I get aaround "refining" these reads, and I know that's bad. I'm honestly not sure what I should be doing right now, seeing that we can't do much since it's the first day. No one has died, and no one has used any ability yet (unless there's someone with a day ability). In the end, there's just not enough evidence to confirm anyone as scum or town yet, so I refrained from saying "this person is mafia/town" and instead opted for leaving people in null. And like I said, I just don't have any strong reads yet.

What should you be doing now? You should be actively refining those reads. You don't have any mechanical information yet. This is true. What you do have is social information, and the ability to generate more social information. Use that.

It's OK for your first readlist to be hesitant, but now it's time for you to get to work and ask questions so you can commit on an attack. We need to have a good lynch ready by Sunday, and we need every player we have working on that-- including you.

randomgenericusername: You've posted a readlist, and you have some suspicions there. How do you intend to confirm (or deny) the veracity of those suspicions, and how do you intend to fill out those null reads?

I would wait and see how they interact. If I see someone who I read as scum defend someone I read as null during the day, then it's probable they're both scumbuddies, for example. Then, when flips happen, they will either reinforce said reads or disprove them. While I might be reading a few as null, I can still see who are they "with" and who are they "against". Every townie lynch will probably have at least one scum member voting for them.

This is nice, but not good enough. Question people. Push them. Find something you don't like, and attack the poster for it. Stop watching from the sidelines, and do something.

[Superdorf]

Addendum: Oh hey, Nirur put up a readlist. Cool!

By my count, you've got a grand total of eight scumreads. Surely some of those people must be town?

Reads:
SuperDorf: Playing a townie D1, posting plenty and questioning people. Very fragile under pressure. The bandwagon thing could easily just be a newb-tell. Leaning town, and I'd prefer not to lynch the enthusiastic newbie D1.

"He cracks easily under pressure." 

KitRougard: Just out of curiosity: how much experience with Mafia and Mafia-related games do you have? I'd had you pegged for another veteran.

[randomgenericusername]

randomgenericusername: Isn't active and interacting on his own, citing RL stuff, but is paying attention. Has asked 0 questions, scummy D1 game.

I mean, I don't know how would I get aaround "refining" these reads, and I know that's bad. I'm honestly not sure what I should be doing right now, seeing that we can't do much since it's the first day. No one has died, and no one has used any ability yet (unless there's someone with a day ability). In the end, there's just not enough evidence to confirm anyone as scum or town yet, so I refrained from saying "this person is mafia/town" and instead opted for leaving people in null. And like I said, I just don't have any strong reads yet.

What should you be doing now? You should be actively refining those reads. You don't have any mechanical information yet. This is true. What you do have is social information, and the ability to generate more social information. Use that.

It's OK for your first readlist to be hesitant, but now it's time for you to get to work and ask questions so you can commit on an attack. We need to have a good lynch ready by Sunday, and we need every player we have working on that-- including you.

randomgenericusername: You've posted a readlist, and you have some suspicions there. How do you intend to confirm (or deny) the veracity of those suspicions, and how do you intend to fill out those null reads?

I would wait and see how they interact. If I see someone who I read as scum defend someone I read as null during the day, then it's probable they're both scumbuddies, for example. Then, when flips happen, they will either reinforce said reads or disprove them. While I might be reading a few as null, I can still see who are they "with" and who are they "against". Every townie lynch will probably have at least one scum member voting for them.

This is nice, but not good enough. Question people. Push them. Find something you don't like, and attack the poster for it. Stop watching from the sidelines, and do something.

All of this is more of a problem with myself than anything related to the game. I just tend to lack initiative most of the time and only post to reply whenever I'm directly adressed. I have never asked questions in any game of mafia I have ever been on before either, or at least I don't remember ever asking any questions to anyone before. I might have been part of a few games, but I honestly still feel like a completely newbie and I'm just lost on what to do now. Still not understand how would I exactly "refine" my reads or what questions should I be asking. I'm just a bad mafia player honestly.

[Nirur Torir]

By my count, you've got a grand total of eight scumreads. Surely some of those people must be town?

I'm differentiating between "scummy" and "scummy D1 game."
The latter is based on the idea that town is better off with a D1 if everyone is involved. And so those who aren't adding much have a scummy D1.

[Superdorf]

Ah, that makes more sense then.

[KitRougard]

My experience is Town of Salem, where there's powers everywhere, a lynch almost every day, and the average game takes... Oh, 30 minutes. On forums I've had Tric's BYOS Yugioh game.
Yeah. Call me a semi-vet?

Town of Salem taught me that knowing roles is knowing what matters, so thus is my addiction to roles and powers.

[Deus Asmoth]

Hector:

Deus Asmoth: How afraid are you of the delayed-kill mechanics (poison, infection, fire) in play?

These questions could basically be reworded as "do you have a powerful role?", which is an interesting first foray to make into the game, particularly in light of you saying the roles are alignment-independent.

Why do you think that about this question in particular? From my point of view the only way you could read that question in the way you're suggesting would be to decide that's what his motive was regardless of what question he actually asked.

A statement of fact. What is the point of any vote?

That's a good question. What is the point of your vote if you don't want the person you voted for lynched? Because I would have said that a vote is normally a statement of intent to lynch someone.

NT:

Deus Asmoth: Who's most townie,

I am, obviously.

and who's your top D1 lynch?

That's what I'm currently deciding.

By my count, you've got a grand total of eight scumreads. Surely some of those people must be town?

I'm differentiating between "scummy" and "scummy D1 game."
The latter is based on the idea that town is better off with a D1 if everyone is involved. And so those who aren't adding much have a scummy D1.

Do you have a reason for this other than obfuscating who you actually think is scum?

Kit
If you quote the question you're responding to it makes it a lot easier for other players to figure out who and what you're responding to. Also I asked you this a bit back.

KitRougard:

And why are you asking me that question? Because you've only seen one game out of me, and that game was baaaaaaad. So you're trying to rile me, confound me, you're doing the exact same thing you did in Tric's BYOR.

Frankly, it's kinda meh.

Is your objection here to the specific question being asked, or to someone trying to rile you up in the first place? How do you normally decide who gets lynched on day 1?

[Superdorf]

Town of Salem taught me that knowing roles is knowing what matters, so thus is my addiction to roles and powers.

Hmm.

The trouble with ousting roles in a forum Mafia game (and maybe in Town of Salem too? I dunno) is that mafia wants that information just as much or even more than town does-- role knowledge helps guide their night actions.

So... why would you try to dig that information up? Surely you'd be better off tracking down mafia?

Unless you are mafia. In that case, carry on.

[Superdorf]

Deus Asmoth: Who's most townie,

I am, obviously.

Very clever. Other than yourself, who comes off as most strongly town-aligned right now?

Actually... would you just give us a readlist? We need readlists.

[Nirur Torir]

Deus Asmoth: Who's most townie,

I am, obviously.

That's a cop-out and you well know it. Who's the most townie other than you.

and who's your top D1 lynch?

That's what I'm currently deciding.

Who are you deciding between? Absolutely everyone other than yourself?

By my count, you've got a grand total of eight scumreads. Surely some of those people must be town?

I'm differentiating between "scummy" and "scummy D1 game."
The latter is based on the idea that town is better off with a D1 if everyone is involved. And so those who aren't adding much have a scummy D1.

Do you have a reason for this other than obfuscating who you actually think is scum?

[/quote]Yes, and I also said who looks scummy. They're a bit lower in the list, try reading further down.
The point is to poke at those who are trying to get through D1 without giving any information flow.

[KitRougard]

Response Deus: My "meh" is just because it feels like a "You asked this last time though." Now that he's explained it better, hell, I'd use it myself. Same with the "Alright, you're making the first post of the game, bub." situation.
As for deciding D1 lynch, well... In ToS there usually isn't a D1 lynch, so just to look active I tend to bandwagon if there's a small amount of logic behind the cart. There's also usually a N0 in ToS, so I would usually have some kinda info to work with.

Response Superdorf: In ToS, my home territory, finding out roles and comparing them to a role list (HEY! The Doctor already died! There can't be TWO! LYNCH!) or comparing their claimed actions to reality (I Roleblocked Jackson last night.
-Bullshit, I had him Jailed, can't RN someone jailed. LYNCH!) is usually how it goes. Roles and perceptions are love and life. But not here, where days last, well, days.

[Superdorf]

You said it yourself-- this isn't Town of Salem. Around here, it's all about social cues and inconsistencies, especially during the first day.

So... care to toss out some questions? We need your words. We need everyone's words.

[Superdorf]

It's getting late over here, and this has been a productive day. I'm gonna start putting together a revised readlist.

[hector13]

Spoiler: hector on votes (click to show/hide)

Your vote is your voice. It is the means through which you generate content. I vote for you, I am in the spotlight, and pulling you along with me. My reasons are scrutinized, your defense and reactions are scrutinized.

This sentence doesn’t express how fully I believe it: a vote is the single most powerful thing in mafia. You can’t run from it, whether you’re placing it on someone or have it placed on you.

People start talking when they see their name in bold red. Heck, if you’re just using your vote because you want to lynch someone, you’re doing it wrong, but that’s the reason why it’s so powerful. People think that’s what it means so people freak out. I’ve played around thirty games of forum mafia to this point and I still get a little jolt of adrenaline when I see someone voting for me, it’s brilliant.

Basically, if I were convinced my vote would be better served elsewhere, I wouldn’t be voting for IcyTea. Whether I want to see them lynched is a different matter, and you won’t find out until the end of the day. Believe what you want, I won’t tell you any different.

@DA: asking if you’re worried about any types of delayed kills is basically asking if you have a defense against it. If you answer in the negative, you might be able to block someone doing it, redirect it, you might even have immunity from them. It basically can be used by scum - of any stripe - to decide who to kill and in what way.

[Maximum Spin]

Maximum Spin: In a recent game, you vehemently advocated a No Lynch on the first day, speaking at length against the Day 1 lynch. Do you still believe your words in that game to be accurate? Why or why not?

I strongly support D1 nolynch because I think players are usually wrong, and people are not as good at understanding each other, nor as smart, as they think they are. On D1, most people place their focus on, well, stupid shit, to be honest. Like this "go ask pointless questions and badger people" strategy. It doesn't produce useful information, it just gives you the illusory feeling of having information, making you more confident in your wrongness. A quick look over the actual track record easily demonstrates this. Remember: most people are actually bad at recognising the motives of others. Most people are either too naive or too paranoid, or in most cases probably both depending on context. And everyone seems to think "oh, yeah, those other people are all so bad at this." No. Statistically, you are bad at recognising the motives of others. Unless you realise this you will never be able to get better. Yes, this goes for me too. This is why the most important thing I can counsel is patience. Assume your first impressions are all wrong, then get your second impressions, then assume those are all wrong too. And of course you should admit this to everyone else as well. Quite possibly the single worst piece of that series of advice Superdorf linked, which was 100% wrong, was the part at the end about doubt. It is imperative to acknowledge doubt; I assure you, everyone else can handle it as long as they haven't already been mistaught that doubt is the seventh seal of the apocalypse.

Essentially, the best thing for town to do on D1 is to be completely open and honest with one another in order to build a ground state that can be used to immediately react to the first mafiakill by lynching correctly D2.

Oh, and always treat every vote like it's a hammer. Speaking of which — and I did, at the time, just so you know — unvote.