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Dwarf Fortress => DF General Discussion => Topic started by: ZeroMcUrist on March 22, 2014, 10:28:49 pm

Title: New Races
Post by: ZeroMcUrist on March 22, 2014, 10:28:49 pm

Say that tomorrow Toady announces that in the latest update he will add a new civilized race to the game.

What would you add?
What niches are unfullfilled with the current races and sub-races?
What could be added that would mesh nicely with the others?

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: neblime on March 22, 2014, 10:59:23 pm

A sea race!
give merpeople more intelligence and sites or w/e
think about it, elves and humans have above ground between them, dwarves have mountains/underground, goblins have the evil places in the world, but the sea, swamps and lakes are quite boring!

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: PDF urist master on March 22, 2014, 11:04:15 pm

Ents. This game has essentially all the major races in lord of the rings except for the ents. I kinda want them to be non hostile unless they see a grown tree cut several tiles away from them.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Furtuka on March 22, 2014, 11:07:11 pm

There use to be in like the ultra ultra early prerelease version. Back when Toady was doing early tests sieging elves could turn Trees into Treants or something. IIRC

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Matoro on March 23, 2014, 02:10:01 am

Quote from: PDF urist master on March 22, 2014, 11:04:15 pm

Ents. This game has essentially all the major races in lord of the rings except for the ents. I kinda want them to be non hostile unless they see a grown tree cut several tiles away from them.

Technically there aren't anything like Tolkien elves in the game right now - only thing DF elves and Tolkien elves have in common is the name.

I don't think we need new races. Too many races and subraces (like many fantasy rpgs have) tend to make the world too crowded for my taste. Right now all DF races are pretty unique and they all have their distinctive traits. Some kind of merfolk could be a good addition, a bit like subterranean animal peoples. Some kind of tree people would fit to the lore similarly, not as full civilization but as smaller entities. Only thing I'd really want is a buff for amount of goblin civilizations - right now one evil sieger civ versus three good (well, two good and one neutral) is pretty unfair in longer histories, which leads quickly to annihilation of goblins.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: alexandertnt on March 23, 2014, 02:25:58 am

Dragons!

It would be nice to have something non-humanoid, plus dragons are inherently cool. Should also be playable.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Manveru Taurënér on March 23, 2014, 03:11:49 am

We will be getting procedural beast race civilizations at some point, but I kind of doubt we'll be getting any new stock races on top of that. From what Toady has said in the DFtalks etc he doesn't seem too keen on adding any more of them, that's how I'm interpreting this quote anyway (bolded part in particular):

Quote

But there are a lot of interesting questions like that ... it happens any time we have a new mechanic that's related to one of the main creatures we have to go through and ask ourselves five different times what does it do, and we aren't interested, really, in building up our stock universe, but we figure we have five different groups ... they're not incredibly diverse, they're somewhat diverse ... and then as we start adding in things like ant-men, like all the animal peoples are starting to get their own civilizations now.
Capntastic:   Yeah I've noticed that.
Toady:   Especially in this version that's coming up; they're actually going to have them. Because back in 2D you had bat-men riding giant bats and they had blowguns made out of cave spider legs that they shot cave spider chitin - or whatever it's called, darts - through that were poisoned with cave spider venom and so on. So they had a civilization up to the point where they were building objects and they'll have that again for the next release. Then that leads to the question, what are the ethics of a bat-man. We know a lot about Batman's ethics I guess from reading the comic books and stuff but then there's ant-men; what are their ethics? What are the ethics of lizard-men? Are they all the same? And so on. We have all these non-inventive animal peoples races but it should allow us to explore some new ground anyway, especially in terms of geographic determinism, in terms of the different environments they have should change their civilizations a lot. So it's going to be interesting to go through; I don't know what happens when a lizard-man starts drinking.

Quote

Threetoe:   Okay, this next question is from James, he asks 'Will you ever begin to include randomized main races, or will the player interactable races always be limited to token dwarves, elves, goblins and humans? And a smattering of chimera tribes' ... the animal people.
Toady:   Is that what he means by the smattering of ... I don't know how to say these words, is it chimera? Yeah, it must be the animal people. Unless you meant something else.
Threetoe:   Yeah, we could always just call the animal people something else, other than turtle man, we could make it some other name and still be a turtle man.
Toady:   I think it's always been in the plan to have randomized main races, it was up on the old dev pages, I don't remember if it made it anywhere on the new dev pages or not? I think it might actually be there. Maybe not. It would be the last one, because doing randomized civilizations is an extra step beyond randomized monsters. Because we've kind of been easing in, we have the forgotten beasts now, we've got the titans, those are randomized. We have some of the underworld creatures randomized and we wanted to ease in to having some of the regular kind of monsters in the woods and stuff, randomizing those with a few extra night creature entries at some point and then kind of ease in to having some randomized regular creatures and then finally adding in randomized civilization creatures. The problem with randomized civilization creatures is there needs to be a lot of exposition or you're just going to be completely confused about what's going on, but it would definitely be an option, I think there would be a slider or something for how strange you want your world to be because we definitely think having dwarves and elves and goblins is cool for a lot of people just to kind of understand what's going on without having to do a lot of extra reading.

Taking all that into account and also the fact that we will be having parts of the current races/civs splinter off and form their own groups at some point, possibly even including changes to their appearance, there wouldn't really be that much point to adding new standard races as well. Not to mention when all that is done creating your own custom civ through modding should be easy.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Orange Wizard on March 23, 2014, 03:13:42 am

I'm inclined to agree with the merpeople suggestion. Once Toady adds things like ships and ocean travel, passing over sunken cities and the like would be amazingly cool. Other than that, I don't think the game needs any more races. If a new one were to be added, I would probably dislike it, unless it had its own niche to fill (hence the merperson entity).
Ents are just elves that have taken the next step and become trees.
Orcs are just fatter, taller goblins.
Other types of elf (high elf, wood ef...) are all redundant - we already have elves.

Also this.

Quote from: Manveru Taurënér on March 23, 2014, 03:11:49 am

Taking all that into account and also the fact that we will be having parts of the current races/civs splinter off and form their own groups at some point, possibly even including changes to their appearance, there wouldn't really be that much point to adding new standard races as well.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Spish on March 23, 2014, 04:35:10 am

A race that lives high up in the mountain peaks and frozen wastes? Skypeople, so to speak? I think a pseudo-Olympian civilization of towering giants that occasionally involve themselves with worldly affairs would be very cool, with their very own special brand of [GIANT] furniture, weapons, and armor. They could be balanced by giving them small armies, low birthrates and very long lifecycles. Could even be jerks and come down from the mountains to demand tribute.

Yeah I would love to see an underwater civilization, if only to add a sense of purpose to the seas.  Oceans are scary, I think a malicious, Lovecraftian underwater race could be interesting. Perhaps amphibious beastfolk could also take advantage of an underwater city framework. However, the ocean would have to be developed into something quite a bit more interesting than the barren wasteland it is now.

DF could use another problematic race; on one side you've got Humans, Dwarves, and Elves, and on the other you have Goblins and Kobolds. Evil human leaders? Anything else I could see just being modded in.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Knight Otu on March 23, 2014, 05:59:17 am

Some sort of merfolk-type race certainly would top my list, since it would add aquatic sites to the game. Similar to wholly subterranean sites, which would need a wholly subterranean race to come into the game (next version's deep sites are in the first cavern layer only, and likely linked to dwarven site structure only). Beyond that... mountaintop sites, perhaps. In any case, a new race for the vanilla game needs to add something to the game that couldn't be modded before, and the major thing right now that can't be modded yet are site types. Other types of entity that aren't possible yet... entities that perform interactions on a certain group of people come to mind (vampires converting certain captives, rulers receiving divine blessings, and the like, not that I want a vampire civilization). That could be a very flexible modding tool.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Enemy post on March 23, 2014, 12:12:06 pm

I added a race of sentient great white sharks once.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Mipe on March 23, 2014, 01:28:51 pm

Quote from: Enemy post on March 23, 2014, 12:12:06 pm

I added a race of sentient great white sharks once.

(http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lgg0498Hjv1qdhvyro1_400.jpg)

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Trickman on March 23, 2014, 06:50:14 pm

As alexandertnt said, I'm in for the intelligent, talking dragons who act as separate entities in the World. Get them to dwell in huge caves or ruins of towns, and make them fully sentient, to the point of having dialogue lines in adventure mode or even giving quests to the player. Getting them to actually fly would be a good start, too :P Ents could also fit well, I guess.

Other than that, I'm not missing any race at the moment. Sure, you could add orcs and whatnot, but then again, they're just a rehash of the standard goblin. Even kobolds seem un-needed in the game, given that normally they have little impact on gameplay. You could easily have unarmored goblin thieves stealing from stockpiles or slightly more intelligent rhesus sons of bitches mackaques filling in for what kobolds do, anyway.

As it stands, we have the mainland/farmer civ (Humans), the forest/naturalistic civ and the mountain/industrious civ. Aside from the merfolk, I see no more "big" spots to cover, and interaction with the merfolk would be scarce, anyway (I guess?).

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Mel_Vixen on March 23, 2014, 06:58:12 pm

Would the undead count? As it stands now necromancers, vamps and Were-people could form theyr own more active "factions" in the future. Not a civ perse although a determined Vamp might turn an entire city or so.

Animal-people being more inteeligent? Sure, that has some "natives" vibe going while the elves are more like a sect of eco-facists.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Demons might get theyr own sites in the upcomming release.

Apart from that i am against merfolk right now. As dwarf you dont get to visit them, except you mod the game with a secret that gives you waterbreathing abilty. Another problem with merfolk is that you dont have any conflict. As long they stay in there underwater cities they dont have to fear invasion and they cant attack landdwellers.

More civilized dragons would be nice but more the sake of theyr intelligence and ability to learn. ... i would like to see a Dragon necromancer XD

Hobbits would be essentialy hilldwarfs.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Enemy post on March 23, 2014, 08:20:51 pm

Quote from: Mipe on March 23, 2014, 01:28:51 pm

Quote from: Enemy post on March 23, 2014, 12:12:06 pm

I added a race of sentient great white sharks once.

(http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lgg0498Hjv1qdhvyro1_400.jpg)

Here they are
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=134169.msg5116834#msg5116834

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Trickman on March 23, 2014, 08:27:33 pm

By the way, I heard clowns will be the ones getting proper sites now, too.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: KingBacon on March 23, 2014, 09:43:02 pm

A demon civ would be awesome. Though what I would like to see is that civs develop according to their environment. Elves near arid lands might wear head wraps and live in mud brick houses. Humans in the north might focus on hunting, ride elk and live in log longhouses. Goblins living in a swamp might invent umbrellas...

Right now all the civs feel similar. Extra diversity with the current races is what I want. Different building styles, different government structures, different cultural norms.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Orange Wizard on March 23, 2014, 09:59:09 pm

Quote from: KingBacon on March 23, 2014, 09:43:02 pm

A demon civ would be awesome. Though what I would like to see is that civs develop according to their environment. Elves near arid lands might wear head wraps and live in mud brick houses. Humans in the north might focus on hunting, ride elk and live in log longhouses. Goblins living in a swamp might invent umbrellas...

I'm 90% sure Toady is going to add something along these lines. It does, at least, sound similar to something he posted in Future of the Fortress.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: k33n on March 24, 2014, 12:36:25 am

I always find it annoying that people project their own prejudices on the races of the games. I mean, the elfs are monotheist cannibal warrior fanatics, the golbins are egalitarian murder based societies, the humans take slaves and keep taxidermied sentients around, the kobolds a tribal sneaks.

The races are already super unique with the potential for adding splintering factions.

Merpeople sounds really cool though, as do maybe ant people hives and other beastfolk stuff.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: rawrcakes on March 24, 2014, 07:04:01 am

Quote from: neblime on March 22, 2014, 10:59:23 pm

A sea race!
give merpeople more intelligence and sites or w/e
think about it, elves and humans have above ground between them, dwarves have mountains/underground, goblins have the evil places in the world, but the sea, swamps and lakes are quite boring!

You know, I really agree with this idea. Some sort of amphibian ocean- and lakedwelling kind if people would be great. Im feeling, however, that they'd need to be quite alien from the terrestrial races, to give them more distinctiveness. Not neccessarily cthulhuoid ill-haunt-your-dreams-and-suck-out-your-brain-alien, but at least something to make the distance from the terrestrial races and the aquatic moderately big. Specifically, I'm thinking something to make diplomatic, military and trade contact difficult, but not impossible.

For the sake of ease, I suppose animal-people might actually be a well-applied template here.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Kolnukbyne on March 24, 2014, 08:28:25 pm

I'd very much like an alternative to Goblins as an evil race. In my own games I've made surface-dwelling antmen and Lizardmen which fulfill the role or modified Mountain Gnomes and Dark Gnomes to live in caves and be a bit larger, allowing both to be thieves and Dark Gnomes to siege and kidnap children, as well as 'Great Trolls', basically slightly larger trolls that are sentient. And by slightly larger I mean smaller than regular trolls because I reduced the size of regular trolls as well to fit my view of them and also to prevent GT's from being overpowered as a race. I made two entity types for them, a primitive cave-dweller type and a more advanced city-dweller type. The only difference between the two was the sites they occupied and that the civilised ones had iron weapons and also, if they were lucky, would get a coat, since I quickly figured out any great amount of clothing would slow them down to a crawl and therefore disallowed them from wearing anything but pants and occasionally a coat, and no armour because that would be too insane.

That said as much as I kind of like the style of the gnomes in DF I'd prefer a more standard fantasy gnome Civ. Because gnomes are my spirit animal. But that's just me.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: RenoFox on March 28, 2014, 09:57:03 am

I know DF is going to get procedurally generated races rather than more hard coded ones, but I love gnolls. They have the sexiness ferocity of werewolves while being a race of their own, and crude weapons and armor similiar to orcs. I really hope the animalpeople will someday become something similiar.

_{Why are there no pictures of gnolls in top hats...}

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Orange Wizard on March 28, 2014, 08:17:29 pm

You mean the Warcraft gnolls? They're okay, I guess. I prefer the current animal people, flavour-wise.

Quote from: RenoFox on March 28, 2014, 09:57:03 am

Why are there no pictures of gnolls in top hats...

+1

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Dwarfu on March 30, 2014, 02:12:15 am

Quote from: Furtuka on March 22, 2014, 11:07:11 pm

There use to be in like the ultra ultra early prerelease version. Back when Toady was doing early tests sieging elves could turn Trees into Treants or something. IIRC

That old movie can be found here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=83812.msg2539837#msg2539837) included with a viewer.

Quote from: Sizik on August 16, 2011, 10:26:54 am

What are the flashing tiles surrounding the elves in elfdeath.cmv?

Quote from: Toady One on August 16, 2011, 11:01:30 am

That's the magical effect that goes on while they are animating trees.  Some trees march up from the bottom in the last third of the movie.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Nicolo on March 30, 2014, 09:22:15 pm

I've played around with various D&D races, but my favorite import has to be grell

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8-pvMbsmpOI/SypQ_nRKBFI/AAAAAAAAAYY/sMMPt9mfPNU/s1600/grell.png)

Grell are a majority female but male-led society of atheistic, democratic hunter-gatherers. Because of their [EAT_SENTIENT_KILL:REQUIRED] ethic, by the time worldgen ends they are scattered in dark caves with a handful learning necromantic arts. Nobody likes them.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Nicolo on March 30, 2014, 09:29:58 pm

All this talk about gnolls just made me add them by renaming "Hyena Man" to "gnoll" and adding them to the skulking list

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: HissinhWalnuts on March 30, 2014, 09:32:04 pm

Glooples from Amorphous plus.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Cruxador on March 31, 2014, 12:26:22 am

Honestly, I would rather if Toady just makes different nations more different - that could include ethnic variations, potentially with names like "orc" and "bugbear" among the goblin tribes, despite not being distinct enough to entail their own species. Similarly, elves could have the ethnic variation to encompass all - or at least a greater subset - of the traits associated with elves in fantasy in general.

I also think that tribal and nomadic societies, including the beast races but also kobolds - should be active in international politics, including forming "armies" of their whole tribe (probably excluding children) and occasionally taking over sites or what-have-you. Not sure about gnomes or other creatures that might be envisioned as largely solitary despite some amount of intelligence.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: nuget102 on April 10, 2014, 07:36:47 am

I like the idea of a lizard like people, ya know? They would have good weapons and a poisonous bite they could use and of course they would walk on two legs like a humanoid. And they would live in water mostly so maybe they would only go x amount of tiles on the world map from the water? And maybe they'll start off friendly if you wanted them to or wanting to annihilate your fort if they're not. And if you're at war with them maybe they'll send baby snatchers and thieves to attack you? And maybe they'll have some exotic creatures to trade that are native to the ocean? Like I dunno.. Mermaids? Sharks maybe?

Okay now I want this to be a thing, someone teach me to make a new civ! D:

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Enemy post on April 10, 2014, 01:57:55 pm

Quote from: nuget102 on April 10, 2014, 07:36:47 am

I like the idea of a lizard like people, ya know? They would have good weapons and a poisonous bite they could use and of course they would walk on two legs like a humanoid. And they would live in water mostly so maybe they would only go x amount of tiles on the world map from the water? And maybe they'll start off friendly if you wanted them to or wanting to annihilate your fort if they're not. And if you're at war with them maybe they'll send baby snatchers and thieves to attack you? And maybe they'll have some exotic creatures to trade that are native to the ocean? Like I dunno.. Mermaids? Sharks maybe?

Okay now I want this to be a thing, someone teach me to make a new civ! D:

The http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Modding_guide (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Modding_guide) should be a good start I think, and here's a quick version of the civ you wanted, it's a copy of the humans, but with the reptile men instead.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[ENTITY:NUGET102]
   [INDIV_CONTROLLABLE]
   [CREATURE:REPTILE_MAN]
   [TRANSLATION:HUMAN]
   [DIGGER:ITEM_WEAPON_PICK]
   [WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_WHIP]
   [WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_AXE_BATTLE]
   [WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_HAMMER_WAR]
   [WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SWORD_SHORT]
   [WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SPEAR]
   [WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_MACE]
   [WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_CROSSBOW]
      [AMMO:ITEM_AMMO_BOLTS]
   [WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_BOW]
      [AMMO:ITEM_AMMO_ARROWS]
   [WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_PIKE]
   [WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_HALBERD]
   [WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SWORD_2H]
   [WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SWORD_LONG]
   [WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_MAUL]
   [WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_AXE_GREAT]
   [WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_FLAIL]
   [WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_MORNINGSTAR]
   [WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SCIMITAR]
   [WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_AXE_TRAINING]
   [WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SWORD_SHORT_TRAINING]
   [WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SPEAR_TRAINING]
   [ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_BREASTPLATE:COMMON]
   [ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_MAIL_SHIRT:COMMON]
   [ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_LEATHER:COMMON]
   [ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_COAT:COMMON]
   [ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_SHIRT:COMMON]
   [ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_CLOAK:COMMON]
   [ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_TUNIC:COMMON]
   [ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_TOGA:UNCOMMON]
   [ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_CAPE:COMMON]
   [ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_VEST:COMMON]
   [ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_DRESS:COMMON]
   [ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_ROBE:COMMON]
   [HELM:ITEM_HELM_HELM:COMMON]
   [HELM:ITEM_HELM_CAP:COMMON]
   [HELM:ITEM_HELM_HOOD:COMMON]
   [HELM:ITEM_HELM_TURBAN:UNCOMMON]
   [HELM:ITEM_HELM_MASK:RARE]
   [HELM:ITEM_HELM_VEIL_HEAD:UNCOMMON]
   [HELM:ITEM_HELM_VEIL_FACE:RARE]
   [HELM:ITEM_HELM_SCARF_HEAD:UNCOMMON]
   [GLOVES:ITEM_GLOVES_GAUNTLETS:COMMON]
   [GLOVES:ITEM_GLOVES_GLOVES:COMMON]
   [GLOVES:ITEM_GLOVES_MITTENS:COMMON]
   [SHOES:ITEM_SHOES_SHOES:COMMON]
   [SHOES:ITEM_SHOES_BOOTS:COMMON]
   [SHOES:ITEM_SHOES_BOOTS_LOW:COMMON]
   [SHOES:ITEM_SHOES_SANDAL:COMMON]
   [SHOES:ITEM_SHOES_CHAUSSE:UNCOMMON]
   [SHOES:ITEM_SHOES_SOCKS:COMMON]
   [PANTS:ITEM_PANTS_PANTS:COMMON]
   [PANTS:ITEM_PANTS_GREAVES:COMMON]
   [PANTS:ITEM_PANTS_LEGGINGS:COMMON]
   [PANTS:ITEM_PANTS_LOINCLOTH:COMMON]
   [PANTS:ITEM_PANTS_THONG:UNCOMMON]
   [PANTS:ITEM_PANTS_SKIRT:COMMON]
   [PANTS:ITEM_PANTS_SKIRT_SHORT:COMMON]
   [PANTS:ITEM_PANTS_SKIRT_LONG:COMMON]
   [PANTS:ITEM_PANTS_BRAIES:UNCOMMON]
   [SHIELD:ITEM_SHIELD_SHIELD]
   [SHIELD:ITEM_SHIELD_BUCKLER]
   [SIEGEAMMO:ITEM_SIEGEAMMO_BALLISTA]
   [TRAPCOMP:ITEM_TRAPCOMP_GIANTAXEBLADE]
   [TRAPCOMP:ITEM_TRAPCOMP_ENORMOUSCORKSCREW]
   [TRAPCOMP:ITEM_TRAPCOMP_SPIKEDBALL]
   [TRAPCOMP:ITEM_TRAPCOMP_LARGESERRATEDDISC]
   [TRAPCOMP:ITEM_TRAPCOMP_MENACINGSPIKE]
   [TOY:ITEM_TOY_PUZZLEBOX]
   [TOY:ITEM_TOY_BOAT]
   [TOY:ITEM_TOY_HAMMER]
   [TOY:ITEM_TOY_AXE]
   [INSTRUMENT:ITEM_INSTRUMENT_FLUTE]
   [INSTRUMENT:ITEM_INSTRUMENT_TRUMPET]
   [INSTRUMENT:ITEM_INSTRUMENT_HARP]
   [INSTRUMENT:ITEM_INSTRUMENT_DRUM]
   [INSTRUMENT:ITEM_INSTRUMENT_PICCOLO]
   [TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_CAULDRON]
   [TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_LADLE]
   [TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_BOWL]
   [TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_MORTAR]
   [TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_PESTLE]
   [TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_KNIFE_CARVING]
   [TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_KNIFE_BONING]
   [TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_KNIFE_SLICING]
   [TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_KNIFE_MEAT_CLEAVER]
   [TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_FORK_CARVING]
   [TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_NEST_BOX]
   [TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_JUG]
   [TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_LARGE_POT]
   [TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_HIVE]
   [TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_POUCH]
   [TOOL:ITEM_TOOL_WHEELBARROW]
   [CLOTHING]
   [CURRENCY:COPPER:1]
   [CURRENCY:SILVER:5]
   [CURRENCY:GOLD:15]
   [SELECT_SYMBOL:WAR:NAME_WAR]
   [SUBSELECT_SYMBOL:WAR:VIOLENT]
   [SELECT_SYMBOL:BATTLE:NAME_BATTLE]
   [SUBSELECT_SYMBOL:BATTLE:VIOLENT]
   [SELECT_SYMBOL:SIEGE:NAME_SIEGE]
   [SUBSELECT_SYMBOL:SIEGE:VIOLENT]
   [SELECT_SYMBOL:ROAD:NAME_ROAD]
   [SELECT_SYMBOL:TUNNEL:NAME_TUNNEL]
   [SELECT_SYMBOL:BRIDGE:NAME_BRIDGE]
   [SELECT_SYMBOL:WALL:NAME_WALL]
   [CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:SUBORDINATE]
   [CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:EVIL]
   [CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:NEGATIVE]
   [CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:UGLY]
   [CULL_SYMBOL:ALL:NEGATOR]
   [SELECT_SYMBOL:CIV:NAME_ENTITY_KINGDOM]
   [SELECT_SYMBOL:SITE:NAME_ENTITY_TOWN_FOUNDER]
   [RIVER_PRODUCTS]
   [OCEAN_PRODUCTS]
   [METAL_PREF]
   [GEM_PREF]
   [STONE_PREF]
   [OUTDOOR_WOOD]
   [OUTDOOR_FARMING]
   [USE_ANIMAL_PRODUCTS]
   [COMMON_DOMESTIC_PACK]
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Title: Re: New Races
Post by: CaptainArchmage on April 10, 2014, 08:26:49 pm

Quote from: neblime on March 22, 2014, 10:59:23 pm

A sea race!
give merpeople more intelligence and sites or w/e
think about it, elves and humans have above ground between them, dwarves have mountains/underground, goblins have the evil places in the world, but the sea, swamps and lakes are quite boring!

I think this sounds like the best idea here. We need things going on in the oceans.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: MDFification on April 11, 2014, 01:02:09 pm

I like the idea of merpeople, but adding that wouldn't affect gameplay for anyone not settling a coastline. I mean any non-merpeople couldn't get into a merpeople site without becoming a vampire.

So instead I'd add a a real underground race - a race that sends sieges, caravans and whatnot through the cavern layer. If dig was on and they were allowed to make steel, they'd be horrifying if you pissed them off.
I'd go with some form of naked mole rat people. They'd have a eusocial structure sort of like like ant-men, wouldn't feel pain, and in general be terrifying.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: BoredVirulence on April 11, 2014, 02:52:36 pm

A mer people option should exist. Obviously they should be amphibious so they can stray from the water.
I'd like to see, if they were ever added, two types of sites for them. Underwater Atlantis type sites similar to dwarves deep sites (or at least sites in the ocean, be it artificial islands or underwater), and coastal sites.

I would like to see underground sieges occur. Personally, I think goblins should fill this role primarily. I see no reason why animal people civ's can't have primitive sites, and potentially siege, but I've always pictured goblins as inhabiting the depths too, largely through cave systems they discovered, I don't see them as miners by trade. It would also make sense for kobolds to come from the caverns as well, they inhabit caves, and like skulking. Besides, I imagine its easier to stealth underground.

At the same time, dwarves should in theory be able to attack from both caverns and above ground, when attacking armies come into play, and maybe with modded playable races at war with dwarves.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: pisskop on April 13, 2014, 02:25:38 pm

I like the idea of new civs, but are we talking civs that will be 'mods' or 'standard'?

To be the latter you really need a niche of your own.

I have a merlock civ mod, and like tribal orcs, but they arent anything unique, and the current hardcoded state of the games core mechanics stops more creative interactions.

I would think variation of species would be sufficient to diversify war politics.  Each civ is selected from a list, then granted a culture or set of ethics?

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Taffer on April 14, 2014, 10:21:19 pm

I also don't really think new races are needed. Mermen would be a unique, interesting addition, but otherwise animal men already fill this niche. I'm hoping they're fleshed out and whittled down a little. We could have ant men civilizations with actual hives attacking from the cavern layer, and tigerman villages. Anything to give then more of a civilization and integrate them into the world better.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Melting Sky on April 16, 2014, 03:12:02 am

The ocean, the glacial north and the underground could all use some sort of primitive race of intelligent creatures ruling them. I guess all of these could easily be covered by the expansion of animal people.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Xazo-Tak on April 16, 2014, 04:07:11 am

What could be more likely to obliterate the DF community in a mass flaming better than furries?

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Henny on April 16, 2014, 05:17:48 am

Quote from: Xazo-Tak on April 16, 2014, 04:07:11 am

What could be more likely to obliterate the DF community in a mass flaming better than furries?

I'd say animalmen are already in the game, but I imagine that's like comparing a lion plush toy with an actual lion. Seriously, they're probably terrifying.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Bandreus on April 17, 2014, 09:15:07 am

Rather than additional races, I'd like different civs to be more diversified in meaningful ways (traditions, ethics, customs, culture, etc.). I think that's where DF is going in the long run, and I like it.

Also, different civs developing different power hierarchies depending on stuff happening in world gen. City-states vs. Empires/Kingdoms with proper rulers vs. more Democratic structures like councils/senates/republics, that sort of stuff.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: 20firebird on April 17, 2014, 11:10:05 am

How about a proper civ for kobolds?

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Knight Otu on April 17, 2014, 11:57:29 am

Quote from: 20firebird on April 17, 2014, 11:10:05 am

How about a proper civ for kobolds?

They already have one. It needs more work than some others still, but it's there.

Quote from: Bandreus on April 17, 2014, 09:15:07 am

Rather than additional races, I'd like different civs to be more diversified in meaningful ways (traditions, ethics, customs, culture, etc.). I think that's where DF is going in the long run, and I like it.

Also, different civs developing different power hierarchies depending on stuff happening in world gen. City-states vs. Empires/Kingdoms with proper rulers vs. more Democratic structures like councils/senates/republics, that sort of stuff.

Yeah, that'll happen eventually, and part of the framework is actually done - civs could theoretically have differing ethics (all variables I think, but I'm only sure about ethics) from each other. It just doesn't happen in play.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Melting Sky on April 17, 2014, 11:10:42 pm

Quote from: Bandreus on April 17, 2014, 09:15:07 am

Rather than additional races, I'd like different civs to be more diversified in meaningful ways (traditions, ethics, customs, culture, etc.). I think that's where DF is going in the long run, and I like it.

Also, different civs developing different power hierarchies depending on stuff happening in world gen. City-states vs. Empires/Kingdoms with proper rulers vs. more Democratic structures like councils/senates/republics, that sort of stuff.

I too like how he seems to be working a great deal on how civilizations and various social entities and the people within them interact. It's a piece of the simulation I don't think I have ever seen done in any sort of detail with any other game I've come across. It will be neat to see how the big 3 races become differentiated from each other in motives and predilections as the game's development continues.

If the animal people are included in the discussion then DF really already has a race to fill just about every environmental niche in the game. Merfolk are technically already in the game, just not as a civilization creating creature. You can find various other animal people in just about any biome in the game with high savagery. I believe I remember reading somewhere that working on animal people was on Toady One's to do list. It would be neat if they had primitive tribal type organization at some point and could build rudimentary settlements.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Bandreus on April 18, 2014, 03:47:26 am

Well, my reasoning is simple: fewer but more varied races > higher number of less interesting races.

That being said, I can easily see a future when number/kinds of civilized races is a world gen parameter. Similarly to how magic is supposed to work way down the road.

I can see why Toad might be contrary to having too many civilized races in the game, but then that doesn't need to be the default world gen option.

What I think would be kind of problematic is the fact that in a game shark-bear people might be an intelligent/civilized entity group, while in the next that same race would be otherwise. The same applies to randomly-generated civilized races, in a sense.

Either way, it'll be very interesting to see how things pan out.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Wimopy on April 18, 2014, 04:15:21 am

I definitely support the idea of water-dwelling peoples. Possibly like the Atlanteans/Aquaman in the DC comics, in a way. They can go to land, but dehydrate and die quickly. That way they can send caravans but can't have long sieges (which means blitzkrieg tactics for war).
Sure, you probably wouldn't deal with them much, though I guess they could send people up rivers, still it would add something to the otherwise barren seas.

My own idea? Bird people, like harpies, but better suited for using/creating tools. They could occupy areas with greater elevation or cliffsides, so they'd probably be most notable for bickering with dwarves, sort of like kobolds. Except you'd have to watch for sieges from above. They could also have a subrace that dwells in caverns or even lower, a pre-encounter to demons, or, if you're lucky/diplomatic, allies to fight them.
Of coures, they would be quite primitive, but basic metalworking is possible. (Though heat + feathers just doesn't mix well...)

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Taffer on April 18, 2014, 10:47:26 am

Quote from: Wimopy on April 18, 2014, 04:15:21 am

I definitely support the idea of water-dwelling peoples. Possibly like the Atlanteans/Aquaman in the DC comics, in a way. They can go to land, but dehydrate and die quickly. That way they can send caravans but can't have long sieges (which means blitzkrieg tactics for war).
Sure, you probably wouldn't deal with them much, though I guess they could send people up rivers, still it would add something to the otherwise barren seas.

My own idea? Bird people, like harpies, but better suited for using/creating tools. They could occupy areas with greater elevation or cliffsides, so they'd probably be most notable for bickering with dwarves, sort of like kobolds. Except you'd have to watch for sieges from above. They could also have a subrace that dwells in caverns or even lower, a pre-encounter to demons, or, if you're lucky/diplomatic, allies to fight them.
Of coures, they would be quite primitive, but basic metalworking is possible. (Though heat + feathers just doesn't mix well...)

By my count we already have 33 tool using, primitive races of bird people in the game. We already have the underground version you mentioned, in the form of Cave Swallow men. This is why I think that the animal men should be fleshed out more, as people seem to forget about them entirely.

For that matter, we already have dozens of sea dwelling races, too. If anything we need them procedurally generated, with civilizations. (Or at least with villages/homes, and the option of going to war with you if you attack them) That would both satisfy a number of good suggestions here, and would also give a purpose to (and hopefully, reduce the amount of) animal men wandering around everywhere.

Fortunately, I believe Toady already intends for this to happen.

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Dirst on April 18, 2014, 11:16:40 am

Quote from: Taffer on April 18, 2014, 10:47:26 am

Quote from: Wimopy on April 18, 2014, 04:15:21 am

I definitely support the idea of water-dwelling peoples. Possibly like the Atlanteans/Aquaman in the DC comics, in a way. They can go to land, but dehydrate and die quickly. That way they can send caravans but can't have long sieges (which means blitzkrieg tactics for war).
Sure, you probably wouldn't deal with them much, though I guess they could send people up rivers, still it would add something to the otherwise barren seas.

My own idea? Bird people, like harpies, but better suited for using/creating tools. They could occupy areas with greater elevation or cliffsides, so they'd probably be most notable for bickering with dwarves, sort of like kobolds. Except you'd have to watch for sieges from above. They could also have a subrace that dwells in caverns or even lower, a pre-encounter to demons, or, if you're lucky/diplomatic, allies to fight them.
Of coures, they would be quite primitive, but basic metalworking is possible. (Though heat + feathers just doesn't mix well...)

By my count we already have 33 tool using, primitive races of bird people in the game. We already have the underground version you mentioned, in the form of Cave Swallow men. This is why I think that the animal men should be fleshed out more, as people seem to forget about them entirely.

For that matter, we already have dozens of sea dwelling races, too. If anything we need them procedurally generated, with civilizations. (Or at least with villages/homes, and the option of going to war with you if you attack them) That would both satisfy a number of good suggestions here, and would also give a purpose to (and hopefully, reduce the amount of) animal men wandering around everywhere.

Fortunately, I believe Toady already intends for this to happen.

I'd like to see some small subset of the animal people make it into real civilizations, a different subset each world based maybe on relative numbers.  I recall that there are plans for a group to be able to spontaneously start acting like a civ, and that mechanism can Uplift appropriate animal people (and other tool-capable beasties).

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: Melting Sky on April 18, 2014, 07:17:49 pm

Quote from: Dirst on April 18, 2014, 11:16:40 am

I recall that there are plans for a group to be able to spontaneously start acting like a civ, and that mechanism can Uplift appropriate animal people (and other tool-capable beasties).

Now that is awesome.  :o

Title: Re: New Races
Post by: misko27 on April 20, 2014, 02:07:09 pm

It's important to remember that Humans are supposed to become far more spread out in terms of what they do (i.e. have the largest differences in culture between areas), which should take up the space that isn't occupied by goblins, elves, etc.