Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 13, 2023, 04:45:59 pm
Post by: Frumple on May 13, 2023, 05:26:33 pm
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 13, 2023, 05:38:36 pm
Well. Good luck?
I am just stressed.
I just want Erdoğan off my life!
Post by: Jerick on May 13, 2023, 05:47:50 pm
Post by: jipehog on May 13, 2023, 06:10:51 pm
I just want Erdoğan off my life!Why? What does the opposition candidate have to offer beside not being Erdogan?
Post by: MrRoboto75 on May 13, 2023, 06:23:43 pm
Erection day
Post by: dragdeler on May 13, 2023, 06:40:47 pm
Go vote tho.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 13, 2023, 08:45:09 pm
Post by: brewer bob on May 14, 2023, 01:23:37 am
I just want Erdoğan off my life!
Me too, despite not living in Turke--I mean Türkiye.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 14, 2023, 03:07:03 am
The less conservatives in power worldwide, the better.I just want Erdoğan off my life!Why? What does the opposition candidate have to offer beside not being Erdogan?
Post by: Strongpoint on May 14, 2023, 03:18:03 am
I just want Erdoğan off my life!Why? What does the opposition candidate have to offer beside not being Erdogan?
Simply removing someone who rules for ~20 years is a good thing, no country can be truly prosperous with this kind of stagnation.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 14, 2023, 05:19:39 am
I AM GONNA GO VOTE
Post by: jipehog on May 14, 2023, 05:51:25 am
Is it ? USA removed some very bad rules in the middle east, subsequently it lead to instability and blood bath that made the region more impoverished. Can you be more specific than a generic dogma ?I just want Erdoğan off my life!Why? What does the opposition candidate have to offer beside not being Erdogan?
Simply removing someone who rules for ~20 years is a good thing, no country can be truly prosperous with this kind of stagnation.
Post by: Bralbaard on May 14, 2023, 06:09:05 am
Post by: andrea on May 14, 2023, 06:18:10 am
This is an internal election, it is a normal part of their already democratic system, and changing leaders through elections is fundamentally different than leaders being deposed by force. In fact, in a democratic system changing leaders is a very crucial feature of staying democratic: a single person keeping power for too much time risks concentrating too much power, officially or otherwise, in that person. This in turn means a greater risk of the system just becoming less and less democratic: the person on top gets used to being powerful, the people get more used to always having the same person on top, and the leader also has more power to make sure the situation stays that way.
Even with the best of intention, it also damages one of the core advantages of democracy: orderly transfers of power. When leadership changes often and peacefully, it builds procedures and expectations. If you have the same guy, with the same party, holding ever more concentrated power for 50 years, the aftermath of this person's death or retirement may see a great deal of trouble, as the mechanisms and the habit of leader change has atrophied .
Mind you, how bad this gets depends on how strong the democratic tradition of a country is and how solid the power of the leader really is: nobody was worried about germany becoming a dictatorship under Merkel, because it had strong democratic institutions and because she was in coalition governments with constant checks. And yet, her long tenure still caused some degree of discomfort at the end, and I would argue rightly so. Stepping down and letting new people take the lead reinforces the idea that power doesn't belong to the individual leader, but to the people and it is merely expressed through parties and individuals within them.
Basically: changing leaders on its own is not necessarily a net positive in quality of life, but if you are in a democratic system it is a very important part of keeping said system healthy.
Post by: Jerick on May 14, 2023, 06:23:09 am
This however is compeletely different. It is one country (hopefully) removing a terrible leader through legal and established practices. The main opposition guy is so someone who's rallied most if not all the opposition parties to his side. He's promised to implement EU democratic rules, sever government controls of the media, revoke the objection to Sweden joining NATO and in general move the country to improve ties to Europe and other western powers.
Erdogan on the other hand is a corrupt, heavily religious, Kurd-killing autocrat who staged a fake coup in order to arrest and torture anyone in a place of real power who didn't support him. So if he gets elected it's possible he might never leave power till he dies. In a way this election is literally a vote between democracy and autocracy.
Post by: Strongpoint on May 14, 2023, 06:26:25 am
Is it ? USA removed some very bad rules in the middle east, subsequently it lead to instability and blood bath that made the region more impoverished. Can you be more specific than a generic dogma ?I just want Erdoğan off my life!Why? What does the opposition candidate have to offer beside not being Erdogan?
Simply removing someone who rules for ~20 years is a good thing, no country can be truly prosperous with this kind of stagnation.
Those are the negative effects of foreign interventions, not the effects of removing a bad ruler. Furthermore, we can't know what would happen if, for example, Saddam stayed in power in Iraq till the end of his life. It is very possible that Irag would degrade further and explode into a much deadlier civil war.
Also, there are no guarantees. I know little about Turkish politics. Maybe that guy will be even worse. But if Erdogan will remain in power, stagnation and rot of the Turkish political system will continue and there are no maybes.
Post by: jipehog on May 14, 2023, 06:29:12 am
We are talking about the turkish voting someone else in power here :). I don't see how you can compare it to those interventionsA comparison can be made on the grounds of much harm caused to the cheer of clueless people. Germans also just voted someone else in power in the lead to ww2.
I have strong preference based on my geopolitical interests. I am curious of what other thinks about the situation in Turkey, especially if they are from Turkey.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 14, 2023, 06:40:45 am
I VOTED FOR KEY-MAIL CLUTCH-DOOR-UGLY (Kılıçdaroğlu)
I AM INCREDIBLY DISTRESSED
Post by: Egan_BW on May 14, 2023, 06:48:18 am
THE ELECTIONS ARE HAPPENINGbest of luck.
I AM GONNA GO VOTE
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 14, 2023, 07:09:54 am
THE ELECTIONS ARE HAPPENINGbest of luck.
I AM GONNA GO VOTE
I ALREADY DID
I HOPE WE WIN
Post by: Strongpoint on May 14, 2023, 10:07:42 am
We are talking about the turkish voting someone else in power here :). I don't see how you can compare it to those interventionsA comparison can be made on the grounds of much harm caused to the cheer of clueless people. Germans also just voted someone else in power in the lead to ww2.
Oh, the old "Hitler was elected via democracy, democracy is not so good" argument.
Hitler merely won the election (with nothing close to a landslide), democracy failed when Germans allowed him to destroy democratic institutions.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 14, 2023, 11:34:42 am
CHP IS BEHIND
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
I AM FREAKING OUT
Post by: jipehog on May 14, 2023, 12:41:46 pm
I know little about Turkish politics. Maybe that guy will be even worse. But if Erdogan will remain in power, stagnation and rot of the Turkish political system will continue and there are no maybes.I have little interests in your faith in change or cave sandwich slogans, unless someone have actual argument in support of either party I am out.
Post by: brewer bob on May 14, 2023, 01:16:38 pm
(And I'd be surprised if he actually loses these elections.)
Post by: Jopax on May 14, 2023, 01:57:01 pm
It'll be good to see the bastard gone, even tho the chances of that actually happening are fairly slim as he's had a good few decades to entrench himself in the position.
Post by: Strongpoint on May 14, 2023, 02:16:28 pm
Yeah the guy is basically a Turkish version of Putin (tho his flavor of authoritarianism (try saying that quickly three times) has a more religious bend). The only reason his shit has been tolerated by most of the west is because Turkey is far too important and useful to alienate, both to NATO and the EU at large.
It'll be good to see the bastard gone, even tho the chances of that actually happening are fairly slim as he's had a good few decades to entrench himself in the position.
I expect narrow Erdogan's victory with minor election fraud here and there and a political crisis after the opposition won't recognize the result
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 14, 2023, 02:24:12 pm
I don't think you guys understand the stakes this election has for me. I am a pansexual atheist. If ersoğan wins, and sharia arrives at last, I will die.
Post by: Maximum Spin on May 14, 2023, 02:33:50 pm
I don't think you guys understand the stakes this election has for me. I am a pansexual atheist. If ersoğan wins, and sharia arrives at last, I will die.Erdogan has been in power in one form or another for twenty years, which, if I recall correct, is your entire life. You have not been dead yet. Please try to retain a sense of proportion.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 14, 2023, 02:38:32 pm
I don't think you guys understand the stakes this election has for me. I am a pansexual atheist. If ersoğan wins, and sharia arrives at last, I will die.Erdogan has been in power in one form or another for twenty years, which, if I recall correct, is your entire life. You have not been dead yet. Please try to retain a sense of proportion.
Yeah, it takes that long for a secular goverment to decay into de-facto theoracy. If he wins, it will completely unravel.
Post by: voliol on May 14, 2023, 04:10:11 pm
PTW
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 14, 2023, 04:54:27 pm
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 14, 2023, 06:11:21 pm
KEMAL HAS ALREADY WON
WE WIN
Post by: martinuzz on May 14, 2023, 06:24:33 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on May 14, 2023, 06:34:39 pm
Post by: martinuzz on May 14, 2023, 07:04:29 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on May 14, 2023, 07:06:01 pm
Yeah, sadly Turkey is becoming to look like more and more like the USAHA HA!
Yeah, I was thinking of the Bush v. Gore decision as I was writing that...
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 14, 2023, 07:27:00 pm
Ugh... Second Turn it is!
Post by: Strongpoint on May 15, 2023, 01:08:43 am
As an anti-theist I am really disappointed and worried, political Islam is not only there to stay, it is becoming stronger everywhere.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 15, 2023, 04:03:57 am
And if a person has taken over an entire countries worth of organisations, systems and positions, cheat like it's free, and still can't win it in the first round...
Then there is still hope.
Post by: delphonso on May 15, 2023, 07:15:10 am
Post by: McTraveller on May 15, 2023, 07:50:10 am
Post by: Maximum Spin on May 15, 2023, 12:06:07 pm
Just curious - I assume your country doesn't have term limits? I think this is one of the things that the USA got correct, political system speaking.It does, but they rebooted their government in 2018 so Erdogan's party's official position is that the term limits were reset because "President" is now a new, different office. I'm not clear on whether any courts have explicitly endorsed this, but it seems to be broadly assumed that he can run for another two terms now.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 15, 2023, 06:13:34 pm
Bad news is that Erdoğan is still the president, and his voting block is still foolishly loyal to him.
Good news, are plenty, but are small individually.
First is that even with all the gerrymandering, campaigns, bribes, cheating, voter supression attempts, and the fact he literally owns the goverment right now, he still couldn't finish this in the first try. This is the first time this has happened to him. The fact that he literally used all possible cards he can possibly have and still not win, means that we are still in the game!
Second is that their voters are in absolute shock right now. They thought they would simply steamroll into another first-round victory. That didn't happen. This will break many spirits.
And speaking of broken spirits, the third thing is that we are fighting back with social media. AKP voters are literally the human version of sheep (This a fact. I will not discuss or take critism about it.), since they are composed of religious and elderly voters, so they are easily lead by what is the most emotionally impactful. We are constantly showering them with information about the scandals of child sexual abuse in Islamic congregations, how Erdoğan literally allied himswlf with Fetullah, and the recent statement by HÜDA-PAR about a possible alliance with PKK.
IF THEY CAN TROLL, SO CAN WE. AND WE OUTNUMBER THEM 5 TO 1!
I am now going back to the low budget psyop we are running on Facebook AKP sympathiser groups. Wish me luck, so that I won't die of cringe before I can make it out of there.
CODENAME: BIGDICKENERGY
I AM OUT
OVER
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 15, 2023, 07:28:00 pm
So, unless there was a rather sizeable block of opposition voters that played truant for some reason - perhaps believing some of the polls that this would be such a resounding win for KK that they don't have to even move their arses - there is not much that can flip the first round's result on its head.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 15, 2023, 07:40:25 pm
Those numbers are illegitimate at best.
Their voters are in genuine shock as they have never experienced a defeat before, while we are seasoned election veterans.
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 15, 2023, 07:59:00 pm
Their voters are in genuine shock as they have never experienced a defeat before, while we are seasoned election veterans.What defeat, though? They've won the parliament, and they nearly got the presidency in the first round. At best they're not winning as hard as usual. Which, again, seems more likely to be a waking call for the absentees rather than a source of despondency.
But I wish you luck. More liberal democracy, less autocracy - is always preferable in my book.
Post by: jipehog on May 15, 2023, 08:08:46 pm
The local pundits think Erdogan has this election as good as won. [..]Same here. Now i'll be looking if he change his position on Sweden.
Post by: Strongpoint on May 15, 2023, 10:37:17 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on May 15, 2023, 10:50:13 pm
CODENAME: BIGDICKENERGYPure Energy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijAYN9zVnwg)
I AM OUT
OVER
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 16, 2023, 05:37:46 am
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 16, 2023, 06:24:46 am
Same pundits say no election tampering was reported by independent observers or otherwise, other than the state-controlled media campaign.
Yeah about that...
It is proven by now that AKP cheating was rampant.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 16, 2023, 06:29:04 am
Yeah about that...
It is proven by now that AKP cheating was rampant.
Quote from: https://www.duvarenglish.com/numerous-frauds-reported-on-election-day-news-62411
Millions of voters in Turkey on May 14 went to the polls to elect a president and members of parliament. During election day, there were reports of attacks, frauds, and attempts to prevent voting at polling stations from all over the country. Daily Evrensel reporters complied the incidents.Wew that is a novel form of voter suppression. Certainly one for the history books
People’s Democratic Party (HDP) Press Office announced that around two thousand people in southeastern Gaziantep province, who are mostly Green and Left Party (YSP) voters, were unable to vote because they had been registered as polling officials from the Patriotic Party without being informed.
Also in Diyarbakır, around 200 voters who were assigned as polling officials without their knowledge were not allowed to vote.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 16, 2023, 07:22:09 am
Take everything about this election with a generous dosage of salt.
I personally don't even think he got 49.5 in the first turn. I think it is actually much lower, and he is trying to break morale. He knows he will lose if the opposition makes a some strategic moves.
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 16, 2023, 07:30:09 am
Do note that all parties accepted the results.
Post by: voliol on May 16, 2023, 08:01:32 am
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 16, 2023, 08:04:15 am
Setting aside the fact that they literally witheld opposition-heavy votes for the last two days, the fact that everyone accepted it means nothing.
All concrete evidence of cheating is kept by YSK (previously, that is, many papers have been revealed with massive frauds, particularly of MHP.), and YSK is pretty much a puppet of Ersoğan. Opposition knows there is cheating, but they can't prove it. If they accuse, YSK won't deliver any evidence and deny the accusation outright. Furthermore, opposition would be then subjected to lies about them lying about the election results. So the opposition don't voice complaints about it and are now increasing their own security and survelliance measures. It is a total standstill.
Things didn't happen as either side would've liked.
And besides. Syrians. Just, Syrians.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 16, 2023, 11:37:34 am
OFFICALLY CONFIRMED
Post by: delphonso on May 16, 2023, 07:09:15 pm
I reckon those who already support Erdoğan don't give a shit about cheating - but if there were any leftover voters who didn't come out last time, this might be what mobilizes them. Sadly, cheating in an election doesn't have that many downsides, in most governments.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 17, 2023, 02:11:32 pm
Ersoğan literally has the fucking pig tiers with him. And they want sharia law. Idiots who voted for ersoğan won't realise their folly until Dollar becomes 50, their woman and girls are forcibly put in full body burqas, and beaten and harassed for getting out of home alone. And they won't get to vote, ever again. Then their one collective braincell will register that maybe voting for such apparent facists was not the best idea.
And what is the most annoying?! Some would even like being put into that position. As long as ersoğan says something about "foreign powahs", their persecution will be satisfied. They will see themselves as martyrs for some greater cause while working for literal starvation wages.
"Türkiye is too important to be left at the hands of Turks".
Post by: lemon10 on May 17, 2023, 02:41:21 pm
ERSOĞAN CHEATEDCould I get some sauce for that?
OFFICALLY CONFIRMED
Cause my quick ten second google search didn't give me any results.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 17, 2023, 02:58:57 pm
ERSOĞAN CHEATEDCould I get some sauce for that?
OFFICALLY CONFIRMED
Cause my quick ten second google search didn't give me any results.
THEY LITERALLY PURGED THE WEB. WOW.
Here. (https://www.cumhuriyet.com.tr/siyaset/son-dakika-chpden-secim-tutanagi-aciklamasi-2082029?utm_medium=Slider%20Haber&utm_source=Cumhuriyet%20Anasayfa&utm_campaign=Slider%20Haber) It is Turkish though.
Essentially;
"Turkey’s Supreme Electoral Council (YSK) sharing data on elections with political parties after the 14 May elections revealed that mistakes were made in many ballot box minutes. After detecting numerous irregularities, statements came from the Republican People's Party (CHP)."
"Mistakes", MY ASS!
Post by: Maximum Spin on May 17, 2023, 03:05:12 pm
THEY LITERALLY PURGED THE WEB. WOW.This is a very familiar attitude here in the US, lately.
Here. (https://www.cumhuriyet.com.tr/siyaset/son-dakika-chpden-secim-tutanagi-aciklamasi-2082029?utm_medium=Slider%20Haber&utm_source=Cumhuriyet%20Anasayfa&utm_campaign=Slider%20Haber) It is Turkish though.
Essentially;
"Turkey’s Supreme Electoral Council (YSK) sharing data on elections with political parties after the 14 May elections revealed that mistakes were made in many ballot box minutes. After detecting numerous irregularities, statements came from the Republican People's Party (CHP)."
"Mistakes", MY ASS!
Post by: EuchreJack on May 17, 2023, 04:55:51 pm
Fixed that for you :PTHEY LITERALLY PURGED THE WEB. WOW.This is a very familiar attitude here in the US, for a very long time.
Here. (https://www.cumhuriyet.com.tr/siyaset/son-dakika-chpden-secim-tutanagi-aciklamasi-2082029?utm_medium=Slider%20Haber&utm_source=Cumhuriyet%20Anasayfa&utm_campaign=Slider%20Haber) It is Turkish though.
Essentially;
"Turkey’s Supreme Electoral Council (YSK) sharing data on elections with political parties after the 14 May elections revealed that mistakes were made in many ballot box minutes. After detecting numerous irregularities, statements came from the Republican People's Party (CHP)."
"Mistakes", MY ASS!
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 25, 2023, 04:52:30 pm
Wish us luck. We are going to need it.
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 25, 2023, 05:10:59 pm
Post by: voliol on May 25, 2023, 05:28:32 pm
Good luck!
Post by: Egan_BW on May 25, 2023, 05:36:42 pm
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 25, 2023, 05:49:30 pm
Is there any hope at all? Looking st parlient it seems to me Erdogan has a substantial % of seats and vote
Eeeeeh... As it stands, president is more powerful than the parliament. Ersoğan expanded the power of his position, like, alot. Kemal will inherit all of it, including the ability to terminate the decisions of the parliament.
Post by: Strongpoint on May 26, 2023, 03:59:49 am
Is there any hope at all? Looking st parlient it seems to me Erdogan has a substantial % of seats and vote
Eeeeeh... As it stands, president is more powerful than the parliament. Ersoğan expanded the power of his position, like, alot. Kemal will inherit all of it, including the ability to terminate the decisions of the parliament.
Isn't it one of the opposition's promises to reduce the power of the president?
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 26, 2023, 04:07:57 am
Post by: jipehog on May 26, 2023, 06:12:20 pm
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 27, 2023, 05:04:47 am
I am richer than the country I am living in. Let that sink in.
Post by: Loud Whispers on May 27, 2023, 06:17:38 am
Economy is so bad that the Turkish Central Bank has negative reserves.A Turkish shopkeeper once told me "Life doesn't get easier. You just get more Turkish"
I am richer than the country I am living in. Let that sink in.
I think about that a lot
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 27, 2023, 11:53:39 am
Ugh.....
Post by: jipehog on May 27, 2023, 12:26:16 pm
Is a breakdown of voting patterns available for the first round? I would be interested to know who various age groups voted for.
Also is there any into on Turkey society birth rate by secular vs religious?
Post by: Maximum Spin on May 27, 2023, 12:46:36 pm
I am richer than the country I am living in. Let that sink in.My country is in hock for more money than exists.
I mean, I understand your position, but it is regrettably not at all unique.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 28, 2023, 03:41:55 am
THE END IS NIGH!
FOR EITHER HOPE OR OPPRESSION!
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 28, 2023, 06:06:06 am
Post by: Starver on May 28, 2023, 06:47:56 am
(A few years back, a local radio station had a competition "Who Wants To Be A Turkish Millionaire?", with frankly insignificant prize framed in terms (maybe even in the actually currency?) of what they are in Turkish Lira. Like, when I was younger, it was Italian Lira that was 'funny'/commonly known about through tourism and common travel of the day, but that was merely "thousands for a can of coke", before the switch to euro. Hmmm. Is it still Zimbabwe that's currently tue exchange-rate whipping dog, even after hacking off arbitrary zeroes? I could check, but this isn't really all that helpful a comment to tack on.)
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 28, 2023, 09:01:06 am
Now, the votes shall be counted...
I am scared.
If ersoğan wins, Turkey will go bankrupt in 6-9 months. I, as a pansexual autistic atheist, may be targeted, or even killed.
Don't believe me? You think I am exaggerating? Then you will be unpleased to know that the allies of AKP are currently talking about how they want to make premarital sex illegal, LGBT completely banned and single woman to be "adopted".
Essentially, sharia law, which means I die.
I hate Islam.
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 28, 2023, 09:37:05 am
Post by: Strongpoint on May 28, 2023, 09:45:40 am
I don't believe that Erdogan won't cheat enough to guarantee victory in case he has slightly less than necessary. The question for me is whether the opposition will go to the streets or not.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 28, 2023, 10:13:24 am
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 28, 2023, 10:46:52 am
It will be a long night in Turkey.
I don't believe that Erdogan won't cheat enough to guarantee victory in case he has slightly less than necessary. The question for me is whether the opposition will go to the streets or not.
Not even night. This election will be swift. There are only two canidates to choose from, and no parliament voting at all.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 28, 2023, 11:09:53 am
Well...
Turkey is now a dead country, walking.
Post by: jipehog on May 28, 2023, 11:20:25 am
I don't believe that Erdogan won't cheat enough to guarantee victory in case he has slightly less than necessary. The question for me is whether the opposition will go to the streets or not.I doubt he would need to cheat this time. I am worried about Turkish economy if it goes the same way Erdogan might start to rely on Russian income even more which might turn into a double edged sword.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 28, 2023, 11:21:34 am
Post by: Maximum Spin on May 28, 2023, 12:48:10 pm
Post by: voliol on May 28, 2023, 12:51:19 pm
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 28, 2023, 01:07:08 pm
Good luck going forward. Do you have any kind of escape plan?
no
Post by: Strongpoint on May 28, 2023, 01:08:15 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on May 28, 2023, 01:20:02 pm
It might not be a bad idea. What's the border with Greece like?Good luck going forward. Do you have any kind of escape plan?
no
Post by: Starver on May 28, 2023, 01:30:43 pm
They also showed him handing out actual cash to fawning[2] voters, standing in line to vote. I would actually be surprised if that was against the lcal rules, if he's doing it (and possibly then also his opponent too), but probably should be.
[1[ Though if they go Islamic, it'll become 1444! Maybe they should try Judaism, then it'll be 5783...
[2] Well, to be honest it was probably more gratitude for the handout/determination to not miss out being handed-out to when it's something being done...
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 28, 2023, 01:53:27 pm
Few weeks ago, I expected Erdogan to lose. Naive me was sure that collapsing economy and huge casualties from the Earthquake (which would be far lower if not huge corruption in the construction sector) will motivate people to vote against, vote for anyone but the current guy. I was so wrong.
Cult of Personality around him is too strong. Also, Islam is a pervasive mind disease.
Yavşak arabın, boktan ilahı...
Post by: The_Explorer on May 28, 2023, 03:40:54 pm
This thread because of that just reminds me of a far right wing propaganda talk, whatever the intentions were to begin with. That is one of the #1 talking point of the far right (far right in the US, whatever that is in turkey) is how "dangerous" islam is. Blanketing an entire people+religion under one roof. (to add...it also makes me just very slightlier happy the guy won, and I know nothing about him or anywhere in that part of the world, but if the other side was based on bigotry and fear of islam, then its probably good he won. But can't really base it on one single thread and persons single opinion).
Post by: ChairmanPoo on May 28, 2023, 03:51:46 pm
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 28, 2023, 03:58:42 pm
Pretty sure islamaphobia is against the rules, and its at least bigoting an entire religion if it isn't...and people who believe in it.
Sorry, man. Really sorry. I am so, so sorry that I have awful opinion of a religion which wants me dead on two separate accounts. I am so sorry. Sooooooooo sorry.
Yeah, anyone who wants sharia can choke on a fat one. Preferably mine.
Post by: Il Palazzo on May 28, 2023, 03:58:55 pm
Post by: voliol on May 28, 2023, 04:13:29 pm
Pretty sure islamaphobia is against the rules, and its at least bigoting an entire religion if it isn't...and people who believe in it.
This thread because of that just reminds me of a far right wing propaganda talk, whatever the intentions were to begin with. That is one of the #1 talking point of the far right (far right in the US, whatever that is in turkey) is how "dangerous" islam is. Blanketing an entire people+religion under one roof. (to add...it also makes me just very slightlier happy the guy won, and I know nothing about him or anywhere in that part of the world, but if the other side was based on bigotry and fear of islam, then its probably good he won. But can't really base it on one single thread and persons single opinion).
Erdogan is a right-wing politician with an Islamistic streak, the Putin kind of personality. Suffice to say his flavor of Islam is not a wholesome one. Magmacube will have to corroborate (and he ninja'd and already did), but the relation between any majority religion used for conservative/regressive purposes and a secular member of the same state, and a minority religion in another state.
But yeah, it's wise to not make blanket statements about Islam and also Arabs, though I am unsure about the translation of that last sentence.
Post by: EuchreJack on May 28, 2023, 05:12:38 pm
Pretty sure islamaphobia is against the rules, and its at least bigoting an entire religion if it isn't...and people who believe in it.I'm getting sick of this "Beat on the victim of persecution because they're not 100% politically correct about their oppressor's dogma" >:(
This thread because of that just reminds me of a far right wing propaganda talk, whatever the intentions were to begin with. That is one of the #1 talking point of the far right (far right in the US, whatever that is in turkey) is how "dangerous" islam is. Blanketing an entire people+religion under one roof. (to add...it also makes me just very slightlier happy the guy won, and I know nothing about him or anywhere in that part of the world, but if the other side was based on bigotry and fear of islam, then its probably good he won. But can't really base it on one single thread and persons single opinion).
Post by: Frumple on May 28, 2023, 05:35:30 pm
Everything I've seen in life indicates islam's no worse than any other religion in the conditions it's a majority presence in (which, to be clear, is less praise of islam than it is condemnation of the general behavior of religious organizations). Problem's less that islam's particularly troublesome and more than religion in general needs to be kept well the fuck away from governing or significant secular power, 'cause it bloody never goes well when it isn't. If the turkish powers that be were predominately christian, or hindu, or buddhist, or what the hell ever, you'd pretty certainly be seeing pretty much the exact same cursed behavior.
Add in a dash of not wanting someone going through a shit time to get in trouble with the forum rules on conduct and you get people commenting like that, for better or worse.
... any case, best of luck mag. It's a shit thing to be going through, hopefully something will keep it from going completely terrible, or at least you get the opportunity to escape before the worst comes about.
Post by: The_Explorer on May 28, 2023, 06:24:56 pm
Just painting an entire people or belief system in the same brush isn't right either.
There are people full of hate everywhere, in every religion AND no religion at all. But they are (I hope anyway) a small group of people, in the grand scheme of things.
To take the bible as an example (and this is coming from someone who isn't actually religious at all but do have religious members in the family), it says God accepts and loves everyone. Yet the far right gladly and openly ignores that part. But that doesn't mean everyone who believes in the bible are the same. Same with islam and anything else. Even athiests can be pieces of junk. But most people are good people, and I know many people from the middle east who are either believe in islam (a couple are catholic I believe, dont really get into religious stuff with friends) who are amazing and don't want to prosecute anyone.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 28, 2023, 06:56:58 pm
I can, and will be bitter and aggressive about Islam though. Look, I know you guys have no completely direct equalivent, but listen. Islam is a primordial abomination that emerged from the mind of a 7th century, epileptic schizophrenic Arabic merchant with serious issues. Islam is not a good thing. Any person who looks at it from the outside and is capable of thinking will immidiately back off. Only way you can even be content in it is that if you are indoctrinated from birth and never exposed to any alternatives.
It isn't like Christianity, where a reformation has happened to mitigate and break apart some of its influence. You have to understand. You have to.
Post by: Maximum Spin on May 28, 2023, 06:59:37 pm
A lot of people in America and, to a lesser extent, Europe feel like disliking Islam is low-class, but they haven't actually read what the scripture itself says. Having seen both, I would say it is categorically worse than the Christians'.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 28, 2023, 08:22:57 pm
Post by: McTraveller on May 28, 2023, 08:28:09 pm
This applies only when arguments are still in the soap box and ballot box phases though; once in the ammo box phase, sure fight back, but don’t do it out of hate, as much is possible on your part.
Post by: martinuzz on May 28, 2023, 08:37:28 pm
But then.. Yesterday.. Opposition candidate Kiliçdaroglu turned out to be a fucking foreigner hating nazi.
So now I am actually not too displeased with Erdogan winning. Better a journalist torturing autocrat than a foreigner hating nazi /sarcasm.
EDIT: Sorry I forgot the /sarcasm tag if it wasn't obvious
Post by: Strongpoint on May 28, 2023, 08:40:38 pm
I can, and will be bitter and aggressive about Islam though. Look, I know you guys have no completely direct equalivent, but listen. Islam is a primordial abomination that emerged from the mind of a 7th century, epileptic schizophrenic Arabic merchant with serious issues. Islam is not a good thing. Any person who looks at it from the outside and is capable of thinking will immidiately back off. Only way you can even be content in it is that if you are indoctrinated from birth and never exposed to any alternatives.
As a fellow anti-theist (not just a theist but someone who believes that religions are harmful to society), I applaud you... And I can't even imagine how awful it is living in a country in which you would have a great chance of being killed for saying what you said publicly.
PS. You are wrong about the only when exposed from birth. If it was the only way to become religious, we wouldn't have religions. Religions prey on people with mental issues, ranging from insane to those with mere depression. Such people have their mental immune systems weakened and may be suspectable to religious ideas.
Post by: martinuzz on May 28, 2023, 08:45:09 pm
I can, and will be bitter and aggressive about Islam though. Look, I know you guys have no completely direct equalivent, but listen. Islam is a primordial abomination that emerged from the mind of a 7th century, epileptic schizophrenic Arabic merchant with serious issues. Islam is not a good thing. Any person who looks at it from the outside and is capable of thinking will immidiately back off. Only way you can even be content in it is that if you are indoctrinated from birth and never exposed to any alternatives.And yes indeed, Islam was founded by a mysogenistic retard who thought it was funny to call himself prophet.. But so was Christianity, and Judaism, and probably all religions that came before that. Religion is just nasty powerplay for those in power.
Post by: jipehog on May 28, 2023, 08:49:55 pm
More over there are those, like Erdugan, who use it to advance its global ambitions. Also, the rise of Islamism is in cross purposes with liberal goals but otherwise I don't think that Islam is worse than Christianity or vice versa.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 28, 2023, 09:11:48 pm
People who attack me for my faith can also fuck off and die however. It's not your business what I want to believe. Yes my old self was essentially obliterated by my conversion but that is a good thing considering what I was like.
Post by: martinuzz on May 28, 2023, 09:19:54 pm
If religion makes enough sense, place your faith in that even if not brought up religiously, your children will choose your religion when they come of age.
You don't think they will? You of little faith! Repent!
I can, and will be bitter and aggressive about Islam though. Look, I know you guys have no completely direct equalivent, but listen. Islam is a primordial abomination that emerged from the mind of a 7th century, epileptic schizophrenic Arabic merchant with serious issues. Islam is not a good thing. Any person who looks at it from the outside and is capable of thinking will immidiately back off. Only way you can even be content in it is that if you are indoctrinated from birth and never exposed to any alternatives.Almost spot on. I'd say though that there's two ways... One way you can even be content in it is that if you are indoctrinated from birth and never exposed to any alternatives. The other way is if you are male, and get to own and abuse three wives for free.
Post by: Strongpoint on May 28, 2023, 09:58:40 pm
Quote
The other way is if you are male, and get to own and abuse three wives for free.Hey, and as many
Note that the 3 wives thing is rare and was and is limited almost exclusively to people with noticeably higher than average income.
Also, note that polygamy is strictly illegal in Turkey.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 28, 2023, 10:05:47 pm
Post by: jipehog on May 28, 2023, 10:07:40 pm
Look, I know you guys have no completely direct equalivent, but listen.Are you certain about that
I can, and will be bitter and aggressive about Islam though.Sure, but keep in mind that that vast majority of Turks are religious, reportedly close to half are religiously observant once a week or more. So regarding most folks around you as idiots and insulting their beliefs would not make your life easier.
Post by: martinuzz on May 28, 2023, 10:08:07 pm
Note that the 3 wives thing is rare and was and is limited almost exclusively to people with noticeably higher than average income.There is the thing that a man needs to be able to afford to sustain his wives, but that doesn't make it any less mysogenistic.
Also, note that polygamy is strictly illegal in Turkey.True. Turkey still benefits from Atatürk's secular and modern ideology. My observation was more islam-general than Turkey-specific. The three wives thing is still very much a thing in a lot of islamic countries.
EDIT: this makes for quite the conundrum over here in regard to asylum seeker laws. A person who has been granted asylum has a right to be reunited with his/her family. But if this family consists of more than 1 wife, that is illegal. However, since familiy reunion does apply to all children, and all those children have the right to be reunited with their mothers, all wives will be allowed to migrate. They will be forced to divorce though. Only one wife can stay married.
Second or third wives who do not have children will not be allowed to migrate for reunion.
Post by: Strongpoint on May 28, 2023, 10:37:41 pm
There is the thing that a man needs to be able to afford to sustain his wives, but that doesn't make it any less mysogenistic.
Polygyny by itself is not inherently wrong, immoral, or misogynic, It is just damn hard to make work. In my books, Islam permitting it is one of the aspects in which it is more liberal than Christianity.
Also, there is a good amount of evidence that we evolved as monogamous species with only residual remains of a more typical among primates harem structure. Polygyny is against our instincts
Quote
The three wives thing is still very much a thing in a lot of islamic countries though.It is mostly a thing in sub-Saharan Africa and mostly because many men die young there. Developed, stable Muslim countries usually have a low % of such marriages, and they are usually restricted and\or not popular.
PS. Claiming that a significant amount of people support Islam only to have multiple wives is just wrong and very similar to "You are an atheist because you want to have sex with everything that moves"
Post by: Egan_BW on May 28, 2023, 10:38:40 pm
I don't care if someones an Arab. I live in Anatolia. Being an anti-Arab racist here would be like hating your neighbors.
I can, and will be bitter and aggressive about Islam though. Look, I know you guys have no completely direct equalivent, but listen. Islam is a primordial abomination that emerged from the mind of a 7th century, epileptic schizophrenic Arabic merchant with serious issues. Islam is not a good thing. Any person who looks at it from the outside and is capable of thinking will immidiately back off. Only way you can even be content in it is that if you are indoctrinated from birth and never exposed to any alternatives.
It isn't like Christianity, where a reformation has happened to mitigate and break apart some of its influence. You have to understand. You have to.
And some of those reformed christians turned out as calvinists so...
Post by: Maximum Spin on May 29, 2023, 04:02:45 am
People who attack me for my faith can also fuck off and die however. It's not your business what I want to believe. Yes my old self was essentially obliterated by my conversion but that is a good thing considering what I was like.I vaguely remember you saying you're Buddhist. Did you convert to or from? Because if you converted to Buddhism, obliterating the self is... well, the point.
Post by: Ulfarr on May 29, 2023, 04:15:53 am
There are people full of hate everywhere, in every religion AND no religion at all. But they are (I hope anyway) a small group of people, in the grand scheme of things.
While I like the sentiment, it is more or less unfounded. When there is a political leader that is either in favor of hate based politicies or at the very least willing to favour such politicies (and the associated groups) in order to gain or keep his power and then said leader gets the majority of votes in an election then the only logical conclusion is that the majority of the voting population is either in favor of such politics or at the very least willing to turn a blind eye to the victims of said policies for their profit. That is not a small group, that is more than half of the people that are actively shaping the future of that country.
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 29, 2023, 04:26:30 am
lol no I said I considered Buddhism and then went like, "nah". I am a Protestant.People who attack me for my faith can also fuck off and die however. It's not your business what I want to believe. Yes my old self was essentially obliterated by my conversion but that is a good thing considering what I was like.I vaguely remember you saying you're Buddhist. Did you convert to or from? Because if you converted to Buddhism, obliterating the self is... well, the point.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 29, 2023, 05:07:57 am
I want a MAN!
Post by: Starver on May 29, 2023, 05:56:17 am
And some of those reformed christians turned out as calvinists so...They really got quite radical, after their split with the hobbesites, in the great Wattersonian Schism of '95!
(I don't really read the railgun thread, not ever PTWed it and not sure when I even last peeked in just for a lurk, but I've a feeling there's a lot of already covered ground from here, over in one or other of the Eternal Threads. Until and unless Turkey goes all 2016 again (or even 1922!), I'm not sure what else to say here.)
Post by: jipehog on May 30, 2023, 07:28:51 am
I don't care about polygyny.
I want a MAN!
One thing in favor of the religious is that they have faith. Unlike many young people want everything now, now, now! they have long term aspirations and will to fight despite all odds hopping to achieve victory in 1, 2, 5, 10 years..
Truth is most people in Turkey (and middle east at large) care about lgbt issues as much as you care about Bangladesh sinking cities. They have more pressing priorities in tumultuous neighborhood at tumultuous times. Most voted Erdogan because the despite the economic hardship he represents stability, diplomatic clout, and Islamic values -- that is not in anyway or form my endorsement just is their perspective.
I believe that you should not put your personal life on hold, nor give up the good fight.
EDIT: added dropped word in edit in bold.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 30, 2023, 11:42:12 am
I don't care about polygyny.
I want a MAN!
Truth is most people in Turkey (and middle east at large) care about lgbt issues as much as you care about Bangladesh sinking cities. They have more pressing priorities in tumultuous neighborhood at tumultuous times. Most voted Erdogan because the despite the economic hardship he represents stability, diplomatic clout, and Islamic values -- that is not in anyway or form my endorsement just is their perspective.
Dude it was a joke. I know LGBT rights is like, the least of my issues.
Also, I don't think ersoğan can even provide that stability, since a full economic and demographic meltdown is about to start.
Post by: jipehog on May 30, 2023, 05:21:54 pm
Post by: Strongpoint on May 30, 2023, 05:58:09 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on May 30, 2023, 07:09:15 pm
I think Magmacube means more emigrants from Turkey.Taking their money with them, no doubt.
Post by: jipehog on May 30, 2023, 10:46:03 pm
Post by: MaxTheFox on May 30, 2023, 11:16:37 pm
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 31, 2023, 04:44:20 am
demographic ?
The whole of the brainpower is leaving off to Europe. They have been already, in droves, for years. But now, We are lucky if any remain at all. I mean practically all of the students in high prestige universites voted for the opposition. These future engineers, surgeons, and what have you won't stay in this failed state. They'll go to the West, where they have an actual future. Leaving us to rot.
Also, the migrants are bringing some... very degenerate traditions, such as little girls dancing on alcohol tables, the putrid crime against childhood that is Bacha Bazi, and treating woman like cattle. News of them stalking, tabbing, killing and raping woman are already around, and it hasn't even been a week since ersoğan won. It will only get worse in time.
Post by: martinuzz on May 31, 2023, 10:35:13 am
I can't wrap my head around that.
Post by: jipehog on May 31, 2023, 12:07:00 pm
It will only get worse in time.So AKP camp is invincible?
Post by: Starver on May 31, 2023, 01:02:11 pm
I can't wrap my head around that.
It's a common issue.
First-generation immigrants know what they're migrating from, may be seeking the change (or willing to try to integrate, however imperfectly). Their offspring can then find that they're not local enough to be local, not traditional enough for their ancestral culture. Youthful rebellion, against whatever they most can't understand about their parents, can send them either way, being hyper-localised or associating with "their original culture" (without necessarily the best sources, or experience of what drives people away from it).
Perhaps the only more fanatic adherent than a "retrocultural" second-(/occasionally third-)generation immigrant is a pure native with nowhere to 'run back to' (or no inclination) who somehow gets caught up in being converted away to one of the many other-origin influences. Whether religious, political or cultural. Budhism to K-Pop, via Line Dancing and <insert random political figure here>... and sometimes that kind of person gets noticed for all the wrong reasons too.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on May 31, 2023, 06:04:43 pm
It will only get worse in time.So AKP camp is invincible?
AKP owns;
- All TV media
- All Ministries
- The Police
- The Army
- Turkish High Election Foundation
- The Congress
Yes. They are invincible.
Post by: jipehog on May 31, 2023, 10:59:58 pm
Post by: Magmacube_tr on June 01, 2023, 11:39:22 am
Sounds about right (https://freedomhouse.org/country/turkey/freedom-world/2022), but I find your lack of faith disturbing.
I mean, I am an atheist. Lacking faith is a description.
On a more serious note, I don't see this absolute shitshow ending until ersoğan dies, hopefully screaming in pain for days on end.
But even if he drops dead (as he should) right this second, the fact that he is a symptom and not the disease himself will not change. Half of the country are the human equalivent of sheep. If you get them into a fold once, they are in there for life. You can tell them to jump off a cliff, and they'll do it.
There is some hope though. His voters imagine him like he is some deity. Their devotion is religious (Seriously. I would like to see a socio-psychological research on thier collective insanity.) His death will cause many copycats to appear, essentially shattering the cult of personality he built up into many, conflicting sects, which then can be crushed by the opposition block.
Post by: jipehog on June 01, 2023, 05:08:07 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on June 01, 2023, 05:14:55 pm
Post by: jipehog on June 01, 2023, 05:18:36 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on June 01, 2023, 05:19:02 pm
Post by: Magmacube_tr on June 01, 2023, 06:38:53 pm
People who believe, aspire, and fight for something tend to be more successful at bringing about change than those who passively wait for thing to change.
Oh, don't worry. The time to do that will come, inevitably. There is a breaking point for everything.
Post by: scriver on June 02, 2023, 01:59:25 am
Love, music, wine, and revolution
Post by: Magmacube_tr on June 02, 2023, 05:01:22 am
I, even I, know the solution
Love, music, wine, and revolution
Whoa, slow down Dionysus.
Post by: jipehog on June 02, 2023, 01:12:31 pm
Maybe. This reminds me the USA politics, where people thought that Trump is the problem rather than the symptoms. With a lot of online only activist who affect nothing, meanwhile I think the AKP camp isn't waiting for anything, they are making kids and educating them how they like.People who believe, aspire, and fight for something tend to be more successful at bringing about change than those who passively wait for thing to change.
Oh, don't worry. The time to do that will come, inevitably. There is a breaking point for everything.
Post by: jipehog on June 07, 2023, 05:48:45 pm
https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/06/04/president-erdogan-shifts-towards-sane-economics
?
Post by: martinuzz on June 07, 2023, 08:20:31 pm
Post by: jipehog on June 07, 2023, 09:34:52 pm
Otherwise, quick google suggest that Erdogan already have scraped the law, also his stated reason is because the vague language of the law was used to promote LGBT rights in Turkey.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on June 08, 2023, 05:25:19 am
President Erdogan shifts towards sane economics
https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/06/04/president-erdogan-shifts-towards-sane-economics
?
It is too late. The economy is already down the gutter. Neither foreign, or local investors want to invest under Erdoğan. He is fickle, temperamental, capricious, and a giant know-it-all, who will either seize your entire investment, or take some stupid decision and destory your profits, on a whim. Company owners are moving their assets off borders already.
There are many, many reasons for this. But I know one thing. He is not going to govern for another 5 years. He just doesn't has the lifespan left.
Post by: jipehog on June 08, 2023, 10:17:31 pm
Russia fuck up made Central Asia, which for years have been Russian domain, a free for all. Turkey is leveraging its influence among turkic people and invest heavily to be connected into Chinas belt and road. China invests heavily to supplant Russia. It seems that even Afghanistan, Pakistan and India might bridge some issues for the oil pipeline. A lot of interesting things.
As for investments money talk.. especially when world is facing precarious economic future.
Post by: EuchreJack on June 08, 2023, 11:24:38 pm
Being shitburger transit state might work for a time, but it's not really adding to the economic future. It's like how the Middle East is gonna have a hard reckoning once US & EU go electric. Some Saudi Princes will probably just move, since their country will have much less to offer them. Maybe to Turkey.
Post by: Strongpoint on June 08, 2023, 11:58:42 pm
The World is a small place. Number 20 ain't so large as far as economies go.
Being shitburger transit state might work for a time, but it's not really adding to the economic future. It's like how the Middle East is gonna have a hard reckoning once US & EU go electric. Some Saudi Princes will probably just move, since their country will have much less to offer them. Maybe to Turkey.
Without something like the construction of many, many new nuclear power stations going for electric cars won't change much. Maybe, maybe balance will change somewhat and oil will be like 30% cheaper. It is more than enough for Saudi to live as they do now.
As for the topic, there is no Islamist country (that also doesn't have a lot of oil) that is not dirt poor. This is why I think that If Turkey is going to become Sunni Iran, it won't have oil to maintain its economy
Post by: Magmacube_tr on June 10, 2023, 01:26:15 am
Without something like the construction of many, many new nuclear power stations going for electric cars won't change much. Maybe, maybe balance will change somewhat and oil will be like 30% cheaper. It is more than enough for Saudi to live as they do now.
As for the topic, there is no Islamist country (that also doesn't have a lot of oil) that is not dirt poor. This is why I think that If Turkey is going to become Sunni Iran, it won't have oil to maintain its economy
Exactly. We simply can't afford becoming a sharia state. That would be a one-way-ticket ticket to complete civilisation collapse. I am not exaggerating. I just know my people well.
Also, yes, the Saudi elite have been buying land from the Black Sea region for some time now. They sense what is to come I suppose.
Post by: jipehog on June 10, 2023, 02:17:25 am
Being shitburger transit state might work for a time, but it's not really adding to the economic future. It's like how the Middle East is gonna have a hard reckoning once US & EU go electric. Some Saudi Princes will probably just move, since their country will have much less to offer them. Maybe to Turkey.
One of the things that contributed to Germans economic competitiveness was that the cheap commodities from Russia, and I don't mean just oil and gas but there are a lot of other raw materials essential for its industry. That why Germany was ignoring Russia shitburger-ness and was bending over to keep this economic link alive up until the invasion. Because money talk.
Turkey as the bridge between Europe and Asia stands to benefit from becoming a transit station. They already hitting record high activity by working with Russia, are trying to tap into central Asia, and from there into China's belt and road. Also they are not planning to be just transit state, they are investing heavily in local industries to go up the value chain and become industrial powerhouse. From processing to production of motor vehicles, to arms to becoming a major global shipyard for EU.
As for going electric, as Strongpoint mentioned that is going to take time, meanwhile have you heard about the world super grid? Want to guess where the link between EU to China will likely go..
Edit: in the meantime there is some reckoning to US policy in the meddle east (https://www.dw.com/en/blinken-visits-saudi-arabia-to-work-on-strained-ties/a-65845247), who would have thought that countries don't like to be called shitburgers and eventually choose to team up and do business with others.
Post by: dragdeler on June 10, 2023, 11:57:06 am
One of the things that contributed to Germans economic competitiveness was that the cheap commodities from Russia, and I don't mean just oil and gas but there are a lot of other raw materials essential for its industry. That why Germany was ignoring Russia shitburger-ness and was bending over to keep this economic link alive up until the invasion. Because money talk.
Sorry but NGL that reeks of reddit and their biases (the majority is emotionally and ideologically invested in nuclear, hence the butthurt, hence the springboard into all kinds of hot takes).
Don't per capita it (https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/exports-by-country)
40 years ago, in 1983, germany had the strongest wages in europe, maybe not in absolute numbers, but adjusted for cost of living I really doubt pounds and francs took you as far as marks. Then they acquired their low salary sector through unification... What had been the perfect semi-permeable membrane crumbled (ikea is one of the big and famous companies that produced in east germany and sold in west germany) their overall economy adjusted downwards. Then in 2005 they had a giant reform of laborlaws, which turned germany into the biggest minimum wage sector among it's neighbours, and that is the correct reason to be mad at them, it makes them so competitive that sooner or later the standard of living of the whole EU will be threatened to be lowered.
Post by: scriver on June 10, 2023, 01:02:15 pm
Post by: dragdeler on June 10, 2023, 01:09:11 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: jipehog on June 10, 2023, 01:51:59 pm
Don't per capita it (https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/exports-by-country)And?
40 years ago, in 1983, germany had the strongest wages in europe, maybe not in absolute numbers, but adjusted for cost of living I really doubt pounds and francs took you as far as marks. Then they acquired their low salary sector through unification... What had been the perfect semi-permeable membrane crumbled (ikea is one of the big and famous companies that produced in east germany and sold in west germany) their overall economy adjusted downwards. Then in 2005 they had a giant reform of laborlaws, which turned germany into the biggest minimum wage sector among it's neighbours, and that is the correct reason to be mad at them, it makes them so competitive that sooner or later the standard of living of the whole EU will be threatened to be lowered.Relevance? Does any of that suppose to contradict what I said?
It seem like you kneejerking to something. I'll wait for your explantion but in the mean time here is quick reference
Germany's economic success is based largely on inflows of cheap energy. (https://www.dw.com/en/opinion-germany-needs-a-new-business-model/a-61383339)
Post by: EuchreJack on June 10, 2023, 02:28:31 pm
Post by: jipehog on June 10, 2023, 02:44:33 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 10, 2023, 03:26:05 pm
...and what does this have to do with Turkey?Have you ever been to Germany?
Because the Turks have. :P
Such joke. Much fun.
Post by: dragdeler on June 10, 2023, 04:38:43 pm
Spoiler: spoilered because deraily (click to show/hide)
Post by: Magmacube_tr on June 11, 2023, 04:57:32 pm
...and what does this have to do with Turkey?Have you ever been to Germany?
Because the Turks have. :P
Such joke. Much fun.
Yeah, yeah... I hope you guys keep them, Almancılık is a disease.
Post by: jipehog on June 12, 2023, 03:15:11 am
a disease.Again, you should be more careful with your phrasings. Imagine if someone called you that.. you can't turn PC only when its convenient.
Post by: MaxTheFox on June 12, 2023, 04:11:54 am
Post by: jipehog on June 12, 2023, 08:46:47 am
Post by: EuchreJack on June 12, 2023, 11:59:27 am
Fuck you :Pa disease.Again, you should be more careful with your phrasings. Imagine if someone called you that.. you can't turn PC only when its convenient.
Post by: jipehog on June 12, 2023, 01:29:37 pm
Post by: EuchreJack on June 12, 2023, 04:32:28 pm
iirc someone recently made fun of Elon Musk being 'free speech absolutist' only when it suits him, I guess he is no different then rest of you just much more successful/rich.Actually, I am probably the only one that is a "Free Speech Absolutist", and I ain't censoring you.
Magma has not once been PC, Allah Bless him.
MaxTheFox believes in the virtues of censoring Far Right Rhetoric, just ask them.
Also: Why can't we make fun of 'ol Elozer Suxs? He certainly doesn't care when I come under criticism!
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 12, 2023, 04:51:41 pm
Post by: MaxTheFox on June 12, 2023, 09:39:12 pm
Tucker Carlson also think so.He does. Why would that have a bearing on my beliefs?
iirc someone recently made fun of Elon Musk being 'free speech absolutist' only when it suits him, I guess he is no different then rest of you just much more successful/rich.Oh I wasn't making fun of him being a hypocrite about being a free-speech-absolutist. I was making fun of him for claiming to be a free-speech-absolutist at all!
Post by: EuchreJack on June 12, 2023, 10:01:38 pm
You have censored enough people in your Ukraine threads, to the extent you could, or cheered on them being booted. You're no free speech absolutist - may Chomsky forgive you....like usual, Il Palazzo has a good point.
Post by: jipehog on June 13, 2023, 02:47:51 am
MaxTheFox believes in the virtues of censoring Far Right Rhetoric, just ask them.And they believe in the virtues of censoring Far Left Rhetoric, just ask them. Do you see the problem for discourse..
Magma has not once been PC, Allah Bless him.Saying what you have on your mind without any filter is easy, the question is do you afford others the same freedom. What if someone came here and used such language about him.. would he be saying Perhaps or crying with religious zeal for the ban hammer..
Post by: MaxTheFox on June 13, 2023, 03:34:33 am
Post by: jipehog on June 13, 2023, 04:10:51 am
Post by: MaxTheFox on June 13, 2023, 04:29:39 am
So you would support anyone right to say that your religion is a 'pervasive mind disease'. Stating that you are 'beyond saving', what you say is merely 'validate your beliefs', and it is 'virtue to censor' you.Nope because I consider my beliefs more valid than theirs.
Now, I wouldn't kill them, or send them to jail for this even if I could. These beliefs alone don't justify such things unless acted on. I would probably ban them from a forum or a chatroom I had mod powers in however because honestly I cba to humor them. I expect to be banned from communities they control too-- and that's fine because I don't go there and my side and their side should stay in our respective lanes. Let them have their own echo chambers.
Post by: jipehog on June 13, 2023, 05:25:58 am
I consider my beliefs more valid than theirs.Said like any true believer out there.
I expect to be banned from communities they control too-- and that's fine because I don't go there and my side and their side should stay in each others' lanes. Let them have their own echo chambers.So its a fair game to ban LGBTQ people, because they should stay in their 'own lanes', their own
Do you really still not see the problem? with replacing robust freedoms of expression and religious belief with person whims and bullying, or do I need to ramp the antics?
Post by: MaxTheFox on June 13, 2023, 05:46:17 am
This forum is a rare exception, of a community where both the left and the right can tolerate each other. But it is just that, an exception. Civil discourse is dead, trying to dig it up will only unearth a rotten corpse. It is unfortunate, and I indeed would prefer if everyone could be civil, but alas echo chambers are the lesser evil compared to letting Nazis roam free online.
My position is honestly less spite and more recognizing that civility just... doesn't really work out nowadays.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 13, 2023, 06:20:46 am
Principles don't matter if they don't serve the core of your belief because they are ultimately fake anyway.
The only thing that is "Good" is action that results in what you want, and the only thing that is "Bad" is action that results in what you don't want.
So when you essentially say "Hypocrisy is bad", I would say that no, bad actions are bad and good actions are good. The class of action that they are doesn't actually matter. To give a concrete example. Far right hatred leads, fairly overtly, into things that I consider bad. Censoring them can stop that bad thing from happening, and thus is good. Far right wing spaces censoring people also (somewhat less overtly) leads into things I would consider bad, therefor that censorship is bad.
There's no principle of "censorship is bad". Simply the question of what it leads too.
Thus, when you try to simply draw equivalencies in these matters on simply a philosophical standpoint, it's simply a false equivalency from my perspective since it doesn't matter if by some principle the actions are the same, only the results of the actions matter, and so your argument falls flat. To me at least of course :P
If you want to try to make a prediction that ultimately X action will lead to a bad result, that's a much more persuasive argument. It's more useful but also way way way more complicated to actually see the future then it is to come up with some anti-hypocrisy principle and then try to critique others for breaking it. History is extremely complex and the future is even more so, the argument of a slippery slope in discourse and the ability for different sides to reconcile is obvious, but somewhat unpersuasive, to me at least. I'd invite you to make a more complete argument for it if you want, since you obvious seem to believe it or are at least espousing the starts of it here.
You have censored enough people in your Ukraine threads, to the extent you could, or cheered on them being booted. You're no free speech absolutist - may Chomsky forgive you....like usual, Il Palazzo has a good point.
Don't listen to him Jack! I believe you're just as much a free speech absolutist as Musk is! And probably for the same reason as well.
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 13, 2023, 06:44:34 am
This forum is a rare exception, of a community where both the left and the right can tolerate each other.Lol. This forum is an exception? This den of progressive scum and villainy? There are no right wing people on bay 12. Or if there are, they stay away from politics. They've all been bullied away over the years. Best you can get is a few centrists.
My position is honestly less spite and more recognizing that civility just... doesn't really work out nowadays.If you contribute to it not working, then you must want for it not to work.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 13, 2023, 07:28:37 am
If you contribute to it not working, then you must want for it not to work.
This is way more complicated then this short statement makes it seem though. Society is not just a bar that at one side all conversation is totally civil and at the other all conversation is uncivil, and for each civil action it goes towards civility and for each uncivil action it goes towards incivility. It's super complicated and not always easy (understatement, often it's flat out impossible) to predict the long term ramifications of actions on the state of discourse in society. And obviously at certain points being "civil" and humoring certain ways people conduct discourse ultimately leads to less "civility" and openness. If people aren't conversing fully in good faith (even sometimes in cases where they are trying too, and frankly what "Good faith" even means probably can change from person to person) then engaging with them will eventually cause negative effects for the state of discourse for everyone else.
Post by: Starver on June 13, 2023, 02:02:02 pm
(I'm sure this is good discussion, give or take rehashing the long-held arguments for both sides, but do we have any more to say more under the TurkPol/TürkSiyas[1] umbrella, rather than Twitter, AmeriPol, perhaps Railgun/etc?)
[1] Interesting to know that "Siya" is "black" in Persian, but can't find a more direct link the politics/political word in arabic-sourced Turkish. Would be interesting to know from the resident local if this is an actual perceived etymological link or just a pun-worthy coincidence. And, either way, is there potentially a Sapir-Whorf effect, making people tend to think that "politics" is an even more "black" (or at least shady) word than we do in the anglosphere..? Just pondering. I'm sure this isn't important, but since I tripped over this 'fact' (without opportunity to research it properly) it's been one of those things that have been rattling around inside my skull, all the while doing nothing useful.
Post by: nenjin on June 13, 2023, 02:23:33 pm
Post by: Il Palazzo on June 13, 2023, 02:24:39 pm
Post by: MaxTheFox on June 13, 2023, 07:22:35 pm
There are no truly far-right people but that's a good thing. There’s a few people I would consider moderate right though. McTraveller, jipehog, TheDwarfy, arguably Strongpoint. Yes there are no outright Nazis or reactionaries because they get chased off, but considering them even existing is a symptom of our society's degradation that's a good thing.This forum is a rare exception, of a community where both the left and the right can tolerate each other.Lol. This forum is an exception? This den of progressive scum and villainy? There are no right wing people on bay 12. Or if there are, they stay away from politics. They've all been bullied away over the years. Best you can get is a few centrists.
When I adopted these beliefs it was already dead. I alone won't revive something society-wide so I chose the belief that, you know, makes it easier on me and communities I have a stake in. I am not a true idealist, I am willing to throw away principles if I see something is not working out.My position is honestly less spite and more recognizing that civility just... doesn't really work out nowadays.If you contribute to it not working, then you must want for it not to work.
Post by: EuchreJack on June 13, 2023, 08:12:37 pm
Yes, I wish to profit from my hypocrisy. How astute of you to notice!You have censored enough people in your Ukraine threads, to the extent you could, or cheered on them being booted. You're no free speech absolutist - may Chomsky forgive you....like usual, Il Palazzo has a good point.
Don't listen to him Jack! I believe you're just as much a free speech absolutist as Musk is! And probably for the same reason as well.
Post by: EuchreJack on June 13, 2023, 08:13:51 pm
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMaybe we should step off Magma's thread...
Post by: Strongpoint on June 13, 2023, 09:53:45 pm
Quote
Freedom of speech is a lie online anyways. What I meant is, who's going to stop e.g right-wing Discord servers banning left-wing people who join? And they do.It is not that different from asking someone to leave your private property because you dislike their views. Not freedom of speech per see.
Quote
Turning the other cheek might work IRL, but online it just gets you slapped twice. Wouldn't there be less conflict if everyone just stuck to their ideologically-aligned communities?Funny. I always assumed that turning the other cheek refers to not reacting to insults and choosing humility over pride.
And there will be MORE conflict when people will inevitability be forced out of their bubbles. For example, when politicians from the other bubble will win the election. And someone has to win the elections.
Working society is based either on compromises or massive amounts of violence and oppression and compromises are impossible if everyone will decide to stop communicating with anyone who disagrees with you.
Quote
There’s a few people I would consider moderate right though. McTraveller, jipehog, TheDwarfy, arguably Strongpoint. Yes there are no outright Nazis or reactionaries because they get chased off, but considering them even existing is a symptom of our society's degradation that's a good thing.
You know why I reject being called right? Because if far-rights are defined as extreme racists, misogynists, homophobes, etc. then being called a moderate right is being called all of that but to a somewhat lesser extent
Post by: MaxTheFox on June 13, 2023, 10:02:32 pm
You missed the part where I said online? They should be allowed to speak in real life of course. Segregating the Nazis into their own Nazi towns or whatever in real life would indeed not work out and is just batshit. In my experience it's MUCH easier to deconvert bigots IRL (still very hard) than it is online (borderline impossible unless you have godlike persuasive skills and their beliefs are wavering anyways).QuoteTurning the other cheek might work IRL, but online it just gets you slapped twice. Wouldn't there be less conflict if everyone just stuck to their ideologically-aligned communities?Funny. I always assumed that turning the other cheek refers to not reacting to insults and choosing humility over pride.
And there will be MORE conflict when people will inevitability be forced out of their bubbles. For example, when politicians from the other bubble will win the election. And someone has to win the elections.
Working society is based either on compromises or massive amounts of violence and oppression and compromises are impossible if everyone will decide to stop communicating with anyone who disagrees with you.
Left and right wing are indeed hard to define in an unbiased way. You're definitely right economically.QuoteThere’s a few people I would consider moderate right though. McTraveller, jipehog, TheDwarfy, arguably Strongpoint. Yes there are no outright Nazis or reactionaries because they get chased off, but considering them even existing is a symptom of our society's degradation that's a good thing.
You know why I reject being called right? Because if far-rights are defined as extreme racists, misogynists, homophobes, etc. then being called a moderate right is being called all of that but to a somewhat lesser extent
Post by: Strongpoint on June 14, 2023, 02:59:42 am
Quote
You missed the part where I said online? They should be allowed to speak in real life of course.
I very much prefer to communicate with violent people who would love to see me dead online. It is safer. Ridiculing a devoted believer or their beliefs is outright dangerous in real life.
The only people who should not be communicated with are sociopaths and psychopaths, it is pointless. But most violent or pro-violence people are not that. And if no one will communicate with those people (especially young) aforementioned sociopaths and psychopaths will.
Quote
You're definitely right economically.Well, I am a staunch proponent of universal basic income. I think the world will be unfair without strong trade unions everywhere. I consider copyright laws to be a bloated structure that went far beyond the necessary purpose and is used to feed parasites. Monopolies should be violently fucked at every opportunity, etc. But yeah, I believe that any attempt to implement communism can bring only poverty, injustice, and tyranny.
Post by: MaxTheFox on June 14, 2023, 05:08:31 am
OK yeah I either confused you with someone else or misremembered. You're center-left then. And I'm not really a communist either, I'd prefer it over unrestricted, Rand-style pure capitalism but my ideal system isn't quite communist.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on June 17, 2023, 01:29:07 pm
Here is the fucked up part. Family of the boy pressed no charges, and the imam responsible has been taken into custody, and was then released, nilly willy. He is still a free man. Opening and running medrese's are literally illegal.
The exact same shit happened when Enes Kara took his own life at a cult student dorm, and when that baby got raped to death by a cult imam. Family pressed no charges, and the criminal left the police free of charge. These will only get more common as time passes.
This is the stuff we are dealing with. Half this country would stand by these scum any day of the week. There is no justice. Humanity is dead. That wretched abomination called islam has taken the victory, their wicked god is pridefully beating its chest right in front of our faces.
I am thinking of carrying a knife with me, and getting a gun carrying permit ASAP. I am LGBT+, an atheist, and an autist. I am the living, breathing personification of the words; "the nail that sticks out".
And I don't want to die. If I die, there will be NO justice for me. Police won't protect me. The courts won't consider me. My family will not stand by me.
I pass as just a "normal", if not weird guy from outside. I have that going for me at least. No one around me knows I am neither of the three things that I am. I have told no one of my sexuality. I am undiagnosed. I am still registered as muslim.
If I am able to in the future, I will escape this failed state.
Post by: dragdeler on June 17, 2023, 02:16:13 pm
If you need a knife stay within regulations, you can still make it really pointy and really sharp, uhm... let me try to say it nicely... pack some fruits you lazy bum! You know, you need a knife to cut them? And that way you stay in shape. Also jogging, it's like training to escape... And otherwise idk... Maybe stuff like wrestling is at just the right intersection of being perceived as a masculine activity, the kind of skillset you need if one day a pineapple is being feisty (pineapples must be the moost violent fruit, I know this whole post is presumptious but what other fruit could it be), and introducing you to people who have an aesthetic interest in seeing two men wrestle.
Excuse me I'm just letting my thoughts run wil, I'll stop now.
edit: just one more before I turn into wholesale fanfic:
"you need a knife that looks like it was sharpened recently to cut a banana?"
first act confused then mildy disgusted
"I will not ashame Allah by eating a banana like a gay monkey!!"
Post by: EuchreJack on June 17, 2023, 09:29:18 pm
So, today, a 12 year old boy has been found dead inside a cult mederese's (islamic school) barn. He has been reported to have escaped two times before, yet his family had sent him back each time.
Here is the fucked up part. Family of the boy pressed no charges, and the imam responsible has been taken into custody, and was then released, nilly willy. He is still a free man. Opening and running medrese's are literally illegal.
The exact same shit happened when Enes Kara took his own life at a cult student dorm, and when that baby got raped to death by a cult imam. Family pressed no charges, and the criminal left the police free of charge. These will only get more common as time passes.
This is the stuff we are dealing with. Half this country would stand by these scum any day of the week. There is no justice. Humanity is dead. That wretched abomination called islam has taken the victory, their wicked god is pridefully beating its chest right in front of our faces.
I am thinking of carrying a knife with me, and getting a gun carrying permit ASAP. I am LGBT+, an atheist, and an autist. I am the living, breathing personification of the words; "the nail that sticks out".
And I don't want to die. If I die, there will be NO justice for me. Police won't protect me. The courts won't consider me. My family will not stand by me.
I pass as just a "normal", if not weird guy from outside. I have that going for me at least. No one around me knows I am neither of the three things that I am. I have told no one of my sexuality. I am undiagnosed. I am still registered as muslim.
If I am able to in the future, I will escape this failed state.
Get that Pistol Permit ASAP, before you end up on some list that bars you from ever getting one.
Post by: jipehog on June 17, 2023, 11:29:50 pm
Get that Pistol Permit ASAP, before you end up on some list that bars you from ever getting one.Going gun ho EuchreJack? Dragdeler offered some safer options.
Post by: EuchreJack on June 18, 2023, 01:34:21 pm
For Magma, there might be a narrow window when his government will allow most people to obtain a pistol permit.Get that Pistol Permit ASAP, before you end up on some list that bars you from ever getting one.Going gun ho EuchreJack? Dragdeler offered some safer options.
That window is closing.
Ergo, get it while you can, is my advice.
Look at where it is at NOW, right from the International Gun Grabber's site. (https://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/turkey)
The Government is also arming it's public servants and contractors. (https://www.duvarenglish.com/amendment-to-turkish-firearm-regulations-raises-concerns-on-individual-armament-news-58879)
Post by: Magmacube_tr on June 18, 2023, 02:03:41 pm
I am pretty sure there is a list and I am probably already in it. It is only a matter of who acts on that info first. and I intend to not get caught off guard. I am at an uni, but that won't be much of an issue; the public safety systems are just that dysfunctional here. You already have an example as to how.
Secondly, my dad is a policeman. And we already have a spare pistol at home. If I truly need it, I'll just need to grab it. It doesn't matters if they bar me from getting one. I de-facto already have one. It is loaded, I know how to use it, and I will use it if necessary. And I have stopped caring about what this excuse of a goverment considers illegal, long ago. Laws be damned.
I also already have a pocket knife. It is a sharp, useful thing.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on June 18, 2023, 02:11:04 pm
Magma has not once been PC, Allah Bless him.
Also, sigged.
Post by: Strongpoint on June 22, 2023, 06:30:09 am
So unexpected! (no)
Ukraine needed a war (or 2008 financial crisis) to make similar steps
Post by: Magmacube_tr on June 22, 2023, 09:37:22 am
Turkey's Central Bank hikes benchmark interest rate to 15% from 8.5%
So unexpected! (no)
Ukraine needed a war (or 2008 financial crisis) to make similar steps
Yeah, they put a competent guy up there, for once. ersoğan's islamic economy plans almost got us gone before. Though, he is still a dictator, who has the final word on everything. So also don't be surprised when he fires the guy and dips the interest into the Earth's core.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on July 07, 2023, 04:04:25 am
This country is going to the shitter. And I am in for the ride.
Post by: saki on July 07, 2023, 03:20:30 pm
Post by: Magmacube_tr on July 07, 2023, 03:33:59 pm
Yep, it doesn't seem like it is going to get any better soon. I thought people would change their minds after the earthquake, but that is not the case (which was shocking to me). I feel extremely disappointed and unsurprised at the same time.
Yeaaaaaa... Those don't happen here. Our people love worshipping goverment officals, and our goverment officals love being worshipped.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on July 12, 2023, 06:51:13 am
An earthquake of similar proportions happened there some 24 years ago. The death count was intentionally muddled, and offical accounts talk of 18.000 or so dead. Experts, however, place it at 50.000 at least. The number is probably higher than even that, but since this is the utter shithole that is Turkey we are talking about, the real numbers will never be revealed.
What should you expect? At least half a million dead. Optimistically. The real death toll will likely reach a million or more. I am not exaggerating. The sheer economical impact such an earthquake will have is going to utterly destroy us. Economy right now is already running on fumes. That earthquake will destroy us.
Istanbul is not ready. It never was. In fact, it is arguably one of the worst metropolises to ever be """planned""". 20 million people- A WHOLE GODDAMN QUARTER of the whole countries population live there, stuck between the sea and the mountains, and residing in cheap buildings made of low quality steel and beach sand concrete.
It is horribly, horribly bloated on every aspect, and deficient in everything that matters. Earthquake planning is essentially zero. The entire city is a clogged, untraversible, rickety death trap that was only ever important because of all the migrants in the 60's stuffing themselves in it. It is BAD bad.
Goverment doesn't cares. The opposition doesn't cares. The small minority of people in this GODFORSAKEN TECTONIC PLATEAU that do have the ability to comprehend anythibg beyond one month of time don't care about it, not anymore. Some of them actually want it now, saying that having ersoğan supporters die because of the president they chose will bring them immense satisfaction. Geologists still care, but no one cares that they do.
But what can I do? Contrary to popular belief- and this may be very shocking and surprising to all you, but I am not actually an eldritch, cube-shaped volcano god with cetacean features. I am a single puny impotent human catfishing you by lowkey pretending to be that. Yes, yes, you feel all betrayed and can't bring yourselves to believe what I've just written after all of our splendid time together and stuff, but that's not the point. I can't control tectonics. I can't do anything about it.
I can only watch as the inevitable happens.
Ana'sını siktiğimin Dolu'su...
Post by: delphonso on July 12, 2023, 07:59:05 am
Post by: dragdeler on July 12, 2023, 10:42:10 am
Contrary to popular belief- and this may be very shocking and surprising to all you, but I am not actually an eldritch, cube-shaped volcano god with cetacean features.......
Please don't tell me that you are slightly rectangular.
Spoiler: Magmacube when surrounded by lava circle (click to show/hide)
Stay safe.
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 13, 2023, 01:56:10 am
Post by: Magmacube_tr on July 13, 2023, 04:51:50 am
Who can say when it will strike? (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/2/13/hold-analysis-is-istanbul-ready-for-a-strong-earthquake) Earthquake proofing a city is beyond my understanding
Earthquakes in Anatolia (and many other places) tend to follow a loose rythm. It can't be known for sure when it will happen, but it can be estimated in the form of wide time windows.
Earthquake proofing in this context refers to taking down damaged buildings and building new ones.
Istanbul is not ready at all. In the 60's, the massive influx of migrants from all over the country inflated the city out of control. Farmlands and orchards, which were all on soft riverbank soil, were destroyed and built upon. Buldings there were crude, unorganised ghettos initially. Then, those ghettos quickly turned into unorganised, cheap apartments witu no goverment supervision. Land mafia formed, extorting locals lands and building apartments on them, then selling them to migrants. Goverment did nothing again, since they reaped profit from it. Because Turkey is a shithole ruled by mafia.
All this contributed to the bloating. In a normal city, a back street connects to a main street. In Istanbul, back street areas go on for hundreds of meters. One connects to another, turning the entire city into an arcane labyrinth, filled with traffic smog, drugs, crime, and other shady activities. Because Turkey is a shithole ruled by mafia.
Current CHP mayoralties efforts to proof the city is (intentionally) underfunded by ersoğan, so when the disaster happens, they can blame the mayoralty and forcefully take over. It is cruel and inhumane beyond measure, but this of course, in character with how our officals, tend to operate. Because Turkey is a shithole ruled by mafia.
When the earthquake inevitably hits, people will die
Because Turkey is a sHITHOLE RUN BY MAFIA-
Post by: Loud Whispers on July 13, 2023, 05:44:57 am
Post by: Magmacube_tr on August 25, 2023, 12:38:27 pm
Such a policy is %100 Islamic, by the way. Almost anything in the Quran can be bent and reinterpreted into pretty much anything you want. The opportunities to squeeze your way are endless. The divine ban on interest is not one of those. It is plain and simple;
Al-Baqarah
"Those who consume interest will stand ˹on Judgment Day˺ like those driven to madness by Satan’s touch. That is because they say, “Trade is no different than interest.” But Allah has permitted trading and forbidden interest. Whoever refrains—after having received warning from their Lord—may keep their previous gains, and their case is left to Allah. As for those who persist, it is they who will be the residents of the Fire. They will be there forever."
If someone is a muslim, they cannot partake in interest at all. Or else Yahweh gets all pissy and grump and torturous and genocidal.
But I guess money>religion. Money is the strongest god, after all.
The damage is already done. The economy is already busted. The prices won't go down. They sold a fucking landmark zone to the arabs for pocket money. They could have done this years ago, but oh well!
... Better late than never.
And for those of you who are wondering why is religion so relevant in this issue here; I wish I was with you.
Moral of the day: DON'T TAKE FUCKING FINANCIAL ADVICE FROM A FUCKING MERCHANT PEDOPHILE WARLORD FROM THE 7TH FUCKING CENTURY!!!
Post by: Ulfarr on August 25, 2023, 01:43:04 pm
Joking aside, as a non muslim I find it quite amusing that at least one interpretation of said text/law, boils down to "trading is basicaly gambling ,so we'll allow it"
Post by: EuchreJack on August 26, 2023, 09:54:52 pm
Because lending money IS risky. There is no free money honestly earned. Risk time & effort are required, even in the lending industry.
The biggest risk in lending, which should be obvious to anyone capable of looking at it from the view of the lender, is NOT GETTING PAID BACK.
(There is also the more nuanced and less popular risk of not making as much money as even the lowest risk of loans, hence why banks in America are more middleman loaning government money and other money rather than rich organizations lending their own limited financial resources.)
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 27, 2023, 02:00:43 pm
Post by: Maximum Spin on August 27, 2023, 04:06:11 pm
Post by: Magmacube_tr on August 27, 2023, 04:52:35 pm
The real reason for the prohibition is antisemitism.
CORRECT ANSWER!!!
Post by: Starver on August 28, 2023, 12:24:19 am
There's a bit of circular (il)logic to the Western antisemitic/money-lender thing, at least in more 'recent' times. Law/custom against 'righteous Christians' lending money in combination with excluding (or biasing heavily against) the Jewish from many other professions tended to reinforce the whole "you need a moneylender, then go talk to the Jew!" sort of thing.
Which then makes a self-reinforcing twofer reason for isolating the local 'sons of Abraham' from the rest of society. Almost 'Untouchable' like the Dalit's in India. And perhaps even exactly for those forced into jobs such as nightsoil-merchants, but then also those "knew where all the money was" (and wasn't... or at least knew all the fine details about who didn't really have the wealth they might otherwise claim to have), probably with a lot of other conspicuously high-tur over business on the side (goldsmithery/jewel-cutting) as either directly having the collaterol to engage in such an above-subsistence sideline or "knowing a Mensch who will help one's brother-in-law". It drives the non-integration, and adds a handy target when things boil over and mere distaste for the 'othered' transforms into jealousy that at least some of those 'others' might be in posession of wealth/power that ...perhaps it would be best that they don't?
(This also moves into the same areas as the seemingly perpetual "anti-outgroup" trope of them being both workshy and "taking our jobs". Both mindless automatons and plotting with a most deviously and insipid cunning. Dogwhistle prejudices that morph to suit the current bugbear and ingroup/outgroup split. Beyond religion: can be ageist, sexist and all forms of nationalist. But the judaic diaspora may well have simultaneously ticked several of those boxes at times, or (dare I say) at times have fallen for the same mental traps in othering the modern Palestinians!)
Now, obviously there was an antiquity basis to the biblical tales from which rose the whole 'Christianity schmutter' from the then mostly accredited Jewish homeland, what with those (by default, Jewish?) temple moneylenders (but, then again "by default, Jewish every profession", give or take other creeds, and whatever layers of differences you ascribe, say, between the levites and samaritans... oh, and all that Roman occupation influence).
And I'm also woefully ignorant about precisely what direction of emphasis the even later fork of the abrahamic family took, save for that it boils down to "if it looks too much like interest, it's haram" and thus any financial instruments must be framed as fully authorised pre-charges or whatever (and clearly must be necessary, for such conceptual contortions to be a regular thing).
I certainly don't doubt that "ultra-anti-antiislamic"[1] Erdogan is not that hot on Judaism, as well. It's at least a 'twofer" reason, right? (Was going to end on a smiley, but it doesn't feel entirely a smiley-worthy conclusion to come to.)
[1] Anything that is not pro-islamic, he seems to be against. Broad secularism included, even/especially that which Ataturk espoused. And "the wrong types of Islam", a la Discworldish "not-a-dwarf"ism. Makes me wonder how much is his true ideology and how much is just political pragmatism in finding the best way to keep his personal popularity jugernaut driving by finding the route ahead through the crowded marketplace that most of 'his' people would actively fheer on.
Post by: Maximum Spin on August 28, 2023, 03:00:14 am
eta: like do you not even know that the Torah forbids lending at interest? The whole point of the business with the temple moneylenders is that they're sinning against their religion.
You also mention Samaritans. Samaritans would not be anywhere near the temple in Jerusalem. Samaritans did not live in Jerusalem. They lived in Samaria. Hence the name. This is a pretty big deal because Samaritans consider the founding of the temple in Jerusalem itself to be a schismatic and, essentially, sinful act. The Samaritan religion holds that God established the real Temple on Mount Gerizim, north of Jerusalem, in Samaria, where the once-major Samaritan city of Shechem was founded, and the Jerusalem temple was a copycat. The whole statement, including contrasting Samaritans with Levites, which are... a tribe... not a sect, just comes off as very uninformed. I actually have this vague impression that you may have meant to say the Pharisees and Sadducees.
Post by: Quarque on August 28, 2023, 04:05:50 am
So far he's gained a few thousand negative euros from trading, buy hey. Temporary setback.
Couldn't believe my ears. I guess Allah trades in crypto himself.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on August 28, 2023, 04:11:23 am
Couldn't believe my ears. I guess Allah trades in crypto himself.
Oh my Toady, Allah is a cryptobro. That explains everything!
Post by: Loud Whispers on August 28, 2023, 05:32:06 am
A muslim I know told me he cannot take a mortgage because of his religion, even though the low rent and tax laws make a mortgage extremely advantageous where I live. So in order to buy a house he needs to get filthy rich instead. He's trading in cryptocurrencies to get there. Because Allah is absolutely cool with that shit. But not with 2% rent on a mortgage, oh no, blasphemy.There are shariah house financing options, where the bank purchases the house and sells it to the buyer in monthly installments at a higher price. In economic terms it usually comes out to more expensive than a mortgage, but does have some advantages. It is unaffected by interest rate swings, so you don't get a situation where a weak homeowner is suddenly bankrupted during a recession. And if there is a housing market price collapse, the bank is the one holding the house, and the bank is in a position to just maintain its current financial arrangement with its counterparty, unless the bank itself is in financial distress
So far he's gained a few thousand negative euros from trading, buy hey. Temporary setback.
Couldn't believe my ears. I guess Allah trades in crypto himself.
Post by: scriver on August 28, 2023, 05:42:07 am
A muslim I know told me he cannot take a mortgage because of his religion, even though the low rent and tax laws make a mortgage extremely advantageous where I live. So in order to buy a house he needs to get filthy rich instead. He's trading in cryptocurrencies to get there. Because Allah is absolutely cool with that shit. But not with 2% rent on a mortgage, oh no, blasphemy.
So far he's gained a few thousand negative euros from trading, buy hey. Temporary setback.
Couldn't believe my ears. I guess Allah trades in crypto himself.
I bet he's being conned by some influencer for born-again young Muslims who also happens to make a lot of money selling the crypto he tells them to buy
"Look at me I made myself rich by trading crypto you could be like me start by buying these cryptos I have here"
Post by: Starver on August 28, 2023, 06:30:25 am
I can't really tell if you're trying to disagree or make a point or just speculating for fun I guess?Neither?
Look, I'm on the very edge of mobile access, here. I gave a short qualifaction of that, three times now, but now fed up retyping it.
Post by: EuchreJack on August 28, 2023, 10:27:14 pm
A muslim I know told me he cannot take a mortgage because of his religion, even though the low rent and tax laws make a mortgage extremely advantageous where I live. So in order to buy a house he needs to get filthy rich instead. He's trading in cryptocurrencies to get there. Because Allah is absolutely cool with that shit. But not with 2% rent on a mortgage, oh no, blasphemy.There are shariah house financing options, where the bank purchases the house and sells it to the buyer in monthly installments at a higher price. In economic terms it usually comes out to more expensive than a mortgage, but does have some advantages. It is unaffected by interest rate swings, so you don't get a situation where a weak homeowner is suddenly bankrupted during a recession. And if there is a housing market price collapse, the bank is the one holding the house, and the bank is in a position to just maintain its current financial arrangement with its counterparty, unless the bank itself is in financial distress
So far he's gained a few thousand negative euros from trading, buy hey. Temporary setback.
Couldn't believe my ears. I guess Allah trades in crypto himself.
We have similar things called "Land Contracts" in the United States (and probably other countries).
You make all the payments, you get the house. You miss one payment, you don't get the house.
It can be useful if the house being "sold" isn't very marketable, and person buying is unlikely to qualify for a mortgage.
Post by: Magmacube_tr on September 17, 2023, 11:21:15 am
The exemption previously required photogtaphic evidence; You essentially had to show a bunch of militiary doctors porn of you getting fucked in the ass.
But nowadays it has been reduced to a "pschological evaluation". With that I mean you and your family answering incredibly invasive questions such as the kinds of toys you played with in your childhood or if you use perfume or not. Questions to "determine" if you are a bottom or not. Which is bullshit, as you can tell.
And as you may or may not know... I am queer. I am planning to dodge the draft by being me. I have 0 respect or compassion for the militiary. I hate the idea of toiling under it.
Now, should I enter the evaluation? I am not effeminate at all. I am actually gender neutral on most regards. Being me is probably not enough for me to pass as a gay bottom.
Or should I fulfill the... older requirements?~. As a treat?
We all know why this rule exists. All man on the top most be bottoms themselves and they must be trying to eliminate the competition.
...
They have no words to label me. They have no concept to describe me. Their pathetic little framework falls apart at the sight of me. I am neither of the two things they use to describe the likes of me. Me. Me. Me.
I am the natural consequence of nature that they call an abberation. I am the living, breathing personification of the words "the nail that sticks out". I am the grim reminder that all they think they know and have been believing for millenia are all false.
Yea. I am all that. Any objections? Cool.
Post by: Loud Whispers on September 28, 2023, 06:05:28 am
As you may or may not know, bottom man are exempt from militiary service. You know why. The whole "unmanly" shtick. Tops are allowed though. So it is pretty much the Greek point of view.BECOME UNGOVERNABLE
The exemption previously required photogtaphic evidence; You essentially had to show a bunch of militiary doctors porn of you getting fucked in the ass.
But nowadays it has been reduced to a "pschological evaluation". With that I mean you and your family answering incredibly invasive questions such as the kinds of toys you played with in your childhood or if you use perfume or not. Questions to "determine" if you are a bottom or not. Which is bullshit, as you can tell.
And as you may or may not know... I am queer. I am planning to dodge the draft by being me. I have 0 respect or compassion for the militiary. I hate the idea of toiling under it.
Now, should I enter the evaluation? I am not effeminate at all. I am actually gender neutral on most regards. Being me is probably not enough for me to pass as a gay bottom.
Or should I fulfill the... older requirements?~. As a treat?
We all know why this rule exists. All man on the top most be bottoms themselves and they must be trying to eliminate the competition.
...
They have no words to label me. They have no concept to describe me. Their pathetic little framework falls apart at the sight of me. I am neither of the two things they use to describe the likes of me. Me. Me. Me.
I am the natural consequence of nature that they call an abberation. I am the living, breathing personification of the words "the nail that sticks out". I am the grim reminder that all they think they know and have been believing for millenia are all false.
Yea. I am all that. Any objections? Cool.