Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF General Discussion => Topic started by: Charlemagne on March 29, 2020, 07:30:54 pm
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Gangs of fearless Keas dive bombing humanoids, for no reason or purpose, before making off with anvils and wheelbarrows.
Maybe he's watched Alfred Hitchcock's The Birds. Maybe. But God himself could part the heavens and announce that Toady One saw a budgie through a keyhole once and I wouldn't believe him.
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Gangs of fearless Keas dive bombing humanoids, for no reason or purpose, before making off with anvils and wheelbarrows.
Maybe he's watched Alfred Hitchcock's The Birds. Maybe. But God himself could part the heavens and announce that Toady One saw a budgie through a keyhole once and I wouldn't believe him.
I agree. Everyone knows that birds prefer sports.
(https://corvidresearch.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/golfcrowc_520x330.jpg)
I do wonder what kind of wingspan would enable a bird to pick up an iron anvil, though.
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That's right. Kea's can carry anvils because Toady has never seen a bird before. Not that there is a bug in his somewhat bug-filled game. Makes perfect sense.
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But still, there is sarcasm/comedy here.
Wingspan?
A bald eagle can carry a rabbit, about 5 pounds with wingspan about 7 feet.
An anvil weighs about 250 pounds, or 50 times as much as the rabbit, so 50 x 7 = 350 foot wingspan... !!!SCIENCE!!!
Or perhaps I should have started from the well-known fact that an African Swallow can carry a coconut.
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What's the average air-speed velocity of an unladened kea?
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We all are too used to the standard 9.8 m/sē. We forget there is no such in DF. Rain is traveling down with laser beam speed and accuracy. If we drop cotton ball and iron anvil of same mass on our foot, then which will travel faster, when we consider there is no resistance from air? Someone will say iron anvil, because it will hurt the foot. However answer is both.
DF has implemented only density so far.
Kea like Dwarf will carry an item, but at a lower speed with higher item's density and material size.
Material size of anvil is (9) and cap is 1:
http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Melt_item
So we have a cap made of steel and anvil equal of 9 caps of steel in material size.
If birds in real life could fly with weights like ants, then I guess it would be even possible. Wouldn't it? Air on low attitudes is sufficiently dense.
Largest bird of prey/vulture in world, is Andean Condor. 3.3 m of wing span. Dangerous to small children. Could it lift such an item?
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i'm inclined to agree. In fact i'd go so far as to say he's never seen anything that lays eggs, so he must think that all of them are chickens lol.
That's right. Kea's can carry anvils because Toady has never seen a bird before. Not that there is a bug in his somewhat bug-filled game. Makes perfect sense.
Thing is though, that's such a simple bug to fix. Its literally just a single check to make sure they won't pick up things that weigh several dozen times of what they themselves weigh.
But guess what? he has never bothered to fix it.
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i'm inclined to agree. In fact i'd go so far as to say he's never seen anything that lays eggs, so he must think that all of them are chickens lol.
That's right. Kea's can carry anvils because Toady has never seen a bird before. Not that there is a bug in his somewhat bug-filled game. Makes perfect sense.
Thing is though, that's such a simple bug to fix. Its literally just a single check to make sure they won't pick up things that weigh several dozen times of what they themselves weigh.
But guess what? he has never bothered to fix it.
Yes. He deliberately chose not to fix it just to annoy you.
Unless....saying "don't pick up things that are too heavy" will mess up pretty much the entire game as people struggle to pick up armour forcing a rebalance of weight values throughout. But, yeah, simple...
Not saying that is the reason, who knows what the truth may be. "It's boring" is perfectly legitimate too. But the problem of weight exists throughout the simulation, way, way beyond keas.
For example, to acknowledge that a kea cannot carry an anvil is to acknowledge that a dwarf cannot haul a giant tiger in an iron cage by himself. So, successful elven trading, now what? Multiple dwarf haulers, force players to create a minecart track from the Trade Depot? Add some new equipment for getting the job done? Yeah, simple. Just enjoy the kea show and wait for a hauling overhaul.
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Unless....saying "don't pick up things that are too heavy" will mess up pretty much the entire game as people struggle to pick up armour forcing a rebalance of weight values throughout. But, yeah, simple...
We're not talking about armor that weighs a few percent of a dwarf's weight, we're talking about a 1kg(at most) bird picking up an 100kg weight.
Besides, if applying weight limits to items that can be carried would break the game, then the numbers are already way off.
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Unless....saying "don't pick up things that are too heavy" will mess up pretty much the entire game as people struggle to pick up armour forcing a rebalance of weight values throughout. But, yeah, simple...
We're not talking about armor that weighs a few percent of a dwarf's weight, we're talking about a 1kg(at most) bird picking up an 100kg weight.
Besides, if applying weight limits to items that can be carried would break the game, then the numbers are already way off.
Sorry, added a better example of things not being "simple" to previous post.
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For example, to acknowledge that a kea cannot carry an anvil is to acknowledge that a dwarf cannot haul a giant tiger in an iron cage by himself.
You're entirely right actually. But then again, realistically, you wouldn't carry around a cage that large anyway, you'd probably put wheels on the thing and just cart it around. I'm sure you'd find a dozen other examples of where stuff would break, so you're right in a sense that putting a limit on carried weight would break things, because the absence of carry weight limits covers up that handling of heavy objects is funamentally flawed.
EDIT:
Just enjoy the kea show and wait for a hauling overhaul.
Yeah im not actually too miffed about the kea situation because its part of DF to me. But my point is rather about obvious bugs and oversights going unfixed for years as well as about piling broken features on top of other broken features then band-aiding them with even more broken features.
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For example, to acknowledge that a kea cannot carry an anvil is to acknowledge that a dwarf cannot haul a giant tiger in an iron cage by himself.
...snip...
Yeah im not actually too miffed about the kea situation because its part of DF to me. But my point is rather about obvious bugs and oversights going unfixed for years as well as about piling broken features on top of other broken features then band-aiding them with even more broken features.
The reason may be that Toady is a creative genious. Genious sometimes (perhaps most times) has so many ideas for new things that need to be done, there is less time for fixing the mundane. DF is the Adams brothers' work of a lifetime and I'm sure they feel a large drive to complete the features they've dreamed of during their lifetime. Their minds must be constantly whirling with the new ideas boiling inside like a tea kettle. With a project like that, I could easily see that the drudgery of fixing bugs (especially the ones with great comic content) would be a toil to be avoided like the plague.
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The reason may be that Toady is a creative genious.
That is the crux of it.
Anyone can build a system of commonly known and used items and relationships. There are hundreds of games that are full of mimicry, and multitudes of game designers that would claim they are creating something new.
The same is evident in the RPG game systems, and in real life science, engineering, and corporate work. There are few that break the boundaries of actualization, and many that repackage and resurface.
Now, if only the development of computer processing could keep up with the FPS hits from those kea that dive through swarms of horrified dwarfs because they want to get down those stairs and into the room where the artifact anvil is...
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The thing that bothers me about keas, is "He was vengeful to join an existing conflict" x10 completely ruining the more high strung dwarves with my military dwarves on the surface.
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Besides, if applying weight limits to items that can be carried would break the game, then the numbers are already way off.
They are, about 2-4 times higher than reasonable for armor, for example, but still within a carrying capacity of most dwarves. At least, an average dwarf's corpse appears to weight 90-110 kg, while a full set of iron/steel armor in the game weights about 88 kg.
That said, bins will become immovable, because the current system of 1 haul task = 1 dwarf won't work with a weight limit well. This is a game mechanic with its own benefits (the player isn't forced to build wheelbarrows or minecarts, they are optional; the game doesn't have to go through the hussle of synchronizing multiple haulers for one object). After all, DF is a game - a simulation game, but still not a functioning model of the universe.
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Yeah, I'd hate for Today to just one day say, "hey I fixed the kea/anvil bug. That was easy". And discover that minecarts had become an essential mechanic for gameplay rather than an amusing way to kill stuff (with hauling benefits). If that's the way Fortress Mode has to go, then fine, but I'd expect plenty of consideration and supporting features first, not just, hey I tweaked a number, enjoy!
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Er...
Hauling Improvements
Being able to haul multiple objects
Having multiple dwarves involved with item hauling for a job
Wheelbarrows
Minecarts
Wooden, stone-carved and metal tracks
Can be filled like stockpiles and moved between destinations
Work animals to tow carts and haul objects
But, for what it's worth, that moment has already happened. Before the minecart update, Dwarves could haul stone much much faster than they can now (like, as fast as they can with a wheelbarrow right now), and even Keas get super slow when they run off with an iron anvil.
Presumably two dwarves on one hauling job just means that if your dwarves are having trouble moving a lead cabinet now, two dwarves will do it faster, similar with tow carts.
(The only thing that really always baffled me was the limitation of three wheelbarrows on a stockpile, but I guess the idea there was to reduce the overreliance on haulers and have people use minecarts, but it doesn't seem to have worked really...)
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How would you even move the miasma spreading FB corpse once you've finally built a track to it anyway? Firstly, it's too heavy to move into the cart, and secondly, the cart has a finite carrying capacity which I think is less than the volume of the corpse (at least that's what I think is causing FB feathers, chitin, etc. to sit and clog up the refuse minecart QS feeding stockpile).
With many dorfs or animals it might be possible, but there would have to be some serious balancing to make things work in a reasonable manner.
The wheelbarrow/stockpile limitation is annoying, I agree. One possible reason for it is that they take up stockpile space. Minecarts aren't as useful as one might think since you have to build track stops and haul stone to the minecarts anyway, and can't use wheelbarrows for that hauling because of the "infinite loading wheelbarrow into the minecart and hauling the cart back with the stone still in it" bug. A significant difference between DF mining and real mining is that the volume hauled away is very much smaller in DF than in real life.
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Er...
Hauling Improvements
Being able to haul multiple objects
Having multiple dwarves involved with item hauling for a job
Wheelbarrows
Minecarts
Wooden, stone-carved and metal tracks
Can be filled like stockpiles and moved between destinations
Work animals to tow carts and haul objects
But, for what it's worth, that moment has already happened. Before the minecart update, Dwarves could haul stone much much faster than they can now (like, as fast as they can with a wheelbarrow right now), and even Keas get super slow when they run off with an iron anvil.
Presumably two dwarves on one hauling job just means that if your dwarves are having trouble moving a lead cabinet now, two dwarves will do it faster, similar with tow carts.
(The only thing that really always baffled me was the limitation of three wheelbarrows on a stockpile, but I guess the idea there was to reduce the overreliance on haulers and have people use minecarts, but it doesn't seem to have worked really...)
Yes, actually thought out plans to implement features. Not "fix the keas by tweaking a number" as the "why does Toady not bother to fix this" crowd imagine.
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you have to build track stops
You don't have to build stops, actually. Track stops are only for automated rails. Wheelbarrow bug is annoying though.
I think most of the minecart problems are rather that it takes a lot of time to learn how they work, so hence I feel that it would help if the wiki page had a section of 'recipes' of how to use minecarts, so people can just copy those. I am working on some, but I am a pretty slow person :x
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you have to build track stops
You don't have to build stops, actually. Track stops are only for automated rails. Wheelbarrow bug is annoying though.
I think most of the minecart problems are rather that it takes a lot of time to learn how they work, so hence I feel that it would help if the wiki page had a section of 'recipes' of how to use minecarts, so people can just copy those. I am working on some, but I am a pretty slow person :x
Hm, that means you could actually use a sliding minecart track implementation that sort of mimics how they're used for mining...
Now, if I didn't use stairs (through [heavy] aquifers) it might actually have been used to move newly mined out stone to the stone stockpile. It might be worth trying out though.
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Yeah, I can't blame you for thinking it, the current wiki page insists on stops in it's initial section though it later says they're not necessary, and you do need stops if you're using tracks to quantum stockpile...
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The tracks I've made have all been automated, and even when carried, I've needed track stops to empty the carts (of magma). I'll definitely try to make some use of actual mine routes when I start playing again.
We've derailed this thread, but it's track didn't have much of a useful destination anyway.