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Dwarf Fortress => DF General Discussion => Topic started by: snow dwarf on September 27, 2018, 07:47:07 am

Title: End of Goblin might
Post by: snow dwarf on September 27, 2018, 07:47:07 am
Is it just me or long gone are the days of goblins ruling the world? In all my recent worlds all the goblin civs that weren't isolated on an island were either losing to the elves or humans. What happened? It's hard finding a dark fortress with more than 200 creatures that isn't far away from any civilization.
Title: Re: End of Goblin might
Post by: George_Chickens on September 27, 2018, 08:19:57 am
Goblin domination tends to need a perfect storm, in my experience. The world map needs to be small enough for them to blitzkrieg their way through, but large enough for them not to be dogpiled (a medium map), and they need to successfully pick their first few targets. Goblins tend to overexpand and get annihilated, and if they don't do their job, the elves tend to step up to the plate as chief warmongerers.
Title: Re: End of Goblin might
Post by: Enemy post on September 27, 2018, 09:57:44 pm
They also need to not murder their own demon.
Title: Re: End of Goblin might
Post by: George_Chickens on September 27, 2018, 10:31:02 pm
Quote from: Enemy post on September 27, 2018, 09:57:44 pm
They also need to not murder their own demon.
Wow, this can happen? I've never seen it before.
Title: Re: End of Goblin might
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 27, 2018, 10:50:36 pm
Quote from: George_Chickens on September 27, 2018, 10:31:02 pm
Quote from: Enemy post on September 27, 2018, 09:57:44 pm
They also need to not murder their own demon.
Wow, this can happen? I've never seen it before.
Yes, surprisingly often.
Check out the history of any gobbo civ lead by a non-demon. Chances are the demon was murdered (small possibility of 'killed by camel during Elf attack').
Title: Re: End of Goblin might
Post by: FantasticDorf on September 28, 2018, 02:40:53 am
Laugh at elves all you want, but since giant animals are generally unbalanced in the post-generation battle screen and they are lead by immortal tacticians with many battles under their belt, they have been taking largely the goblin's place in steamrolling smaller nations under waves of claws & teeth.

You'd have to cut down the elven defenders & waves upon waves of giant animals factored into a counter attack, this personally is why id like to see real-time battle simulations sooner rather than later for more accurate representations of battles and to have capped limits of animals that are 'reserved' for defence.

Title: Re: End of Goblin might
Post by: Blastbeard on September 28, 2018, 06:49:01 pm
In my experience the demon pulls a lot of their civilization's weight. They lead or at least participate in most battles and usually boast the highest kill count of their civilization. It's almost as if the goblins aren't meant to function as proper society without the demon running the show, and the civilization as a whole only exists to serve the demon and the pursuit of their goals. The more thought I put into it, the more familiar it sounds.


(https://www.themarysue.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/palpy-320x240.jpg)(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQeSoJP1lAUx1as52n3ss4b4Zj2KbfhQCoRzwPM23sqD1VEvzdA)(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/pt/7/73/Sauron_%28Tolkien%29.jpg)(https://i.gzn.jp/img/2013/06/13/kenji-utsumi-passed-away/00-top.jpg)
                                               [Laughs in Senate]                           [Laughs in Darius III's salty tears]                [Laughs in Ainur]                                               [Laughs in DAMN BOI HE SWOLE]

This formula doesn't work so well if the demon isn't sufficiently killy or is otherwise prone to catching a case of sudden onset not-being-alive disease. Being the size of a house is a good start and does wonders for intimidation, but if you're made of rock salt or some other fragile material you've got problems. Even exhaling a gas that rots a person's lungs out isn't guaranteed to keep you alive. And any group that can only exist, persist, and excel due to the efforts of one individual is doomed to fall apart they lose their keystone.
Title: Re: End of Goblin might
Post by: Dorsidwarf on September 30, 2018, 10:00:17 am
I wonder if it’s possible for a physically unkillable demon (giant made of steel for example) to be killed by someone with a copper spear in world gen battles
Title: Re: End of Goblin might
Post by: George_Chickens on September 30, 2018, 01:26:29 pm
Quote from: Dorsidwarf on September 30, 2018, 10:00:17 am
I wonder if it’s possible for a physically unkillable demon (giant made of steel for example) to be killed by someone with a copper spear in world gen battles
This is a good question. I know it takes into account equipment and ESPECIALLY skill, but does it also take into account body composition?
Title: Re: End of Goblin might
Post by: Saiko Kila on October 01, 2018, 03:07:36 pm
I just looked into composition of 50 unique demons (the ones who rule the gobbos), and 49 of them were composed of standard materials. One was non-standard, made of vomit. So funny materials are possible, but chances seem slim to me. Anyway, in my worlds the demons are usually killed by some monster in worldgen.

Gobbos can cope without them, but do not dominate. For example in my world (no advanced settings) after 250 years there were 65k dorfs, 52k gobbos, 49k humans, 32k elves and 2.5k kobolds. If the demons survived (there were 6 here originally), then the gobbos would rule the world probably.
Title: Re: End of Goblin might
Post by: 《monty》 on October 03, 2018, 09:27:53 pm
Part of the disadvantage for goblins on a civilization level is also their high rate of banditry. If you drop it to a level comparable with other species they can still be overwhelming without a demon lord.
Title: Re: End of Goblin might
Post by: pisskop on October 03, 2018, 09:35:48 pm
Quote from: George_Chickens on September 30, 2018, 01:26:29 pm
Quote from: Dorsidwarf on September 30, 2018, 10:00:17 am
I wonder if it’s possible for a physically unkillable demon (giant made of steel for example) to be killed by someone with a copper spear in world gen battles
This is a good question. I know it takes into account equipment and ESPECIALLY skill, but does it also take into account body composition?
It seems to, but it doesn't simulate actual combat.  As far as I can tell with my extensive but informal experience the materials contribute to a number, call it survivability, and then the numbers do the fighting.  You get some spear>tanks situations by sheer number of combats.


Likewise, it seems that worldgen combat does also occassionally favor vomitus monsters and such by these numbers.




P:

I made a 'legion' monster, ala castlevania undead blob.  One of the ways I got it to drop corpses was to physically melt off and reanimate its limbs.  Worldgen was really fond of making a reanimated limb the megabeast, displacing the mon itself; and while it usually survived it was a lot less killy after the first combat.
Title: Re: End of Goblin might
Post by: FantasticDorf on October 05, 2018, 02:24:07 pm
Quote from: Saiko Kila on October 01, 2018, 03:07:36 pm
Gobbos can cope without them, but do not dominate. For example in my world (no advanced settings) after 250 years there were 65k dorfs, 52k gobbos, 49k humans, 32k elves and 2.5k kobolds. If the demons survived (there were 6 here originally), then the gobbos would rule the world probably.

There are some easy self made solutions to this in regards to RAW modding, and it highlights the subtle effects of government structures and that the two person governmental structure of general and leader (which doesn't always get refreshed due to bugs) is probably deliberately flawed.

- Police & punishment (fortress guards & executioners) to uphold treason charges vs the demon lord making non-accidental murders against them extremely rare and bolster defence.

- More [rule from site] nobles like local [MARKET_ONLY] tower lords away from the capital with their own military goals & strategy & occupied site administrators to make use of sites taken. Using [MONARCH] won't overlap with procedural positions, neither with [GENERAL] and these can bring them into the main fortress game when the normal dwarf monarch conditions are met as a goblin entity. Free demon on site for use, keep em safe.

- Subservient local militia squads linked to the general in every tower site, gives more armies & tactic talent spread across goblindom rather than one crushing defeat collapsing your power structure.

Title: Re: End of Goblin might
Post by: Pvt. Pirate on October 10, 2018, 04:02:53 pm
well, playing in 44.09 still, but unless i changed the raws to give them a maxage, only in one of 20 cases they seemed to not rule as much area as all other races combined after 125 years of worldgen in another 1 of 20 they went extinct.
Title: Re: End of Goblin might
Post by: Atomisk on October 17, 2018, 09:54:29 pm
Are you sure about that?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: End of Goblin might
Post by: sketchesofpayne on October 18, 2018, 12:56:34 am
I've noticed this.  In the couple dozen worlds I've genned in 44.12 a lot of them are dominated by elves.  Also, goblins seem to integrate into human civilizations quite often.  Once gameplay begins the elves launch repeated assaults on the humans and dwarves.
Title: Re: End of Goblin might
Post by: FantasticDorf on October 18, 2018, 07:32:03 am
Quote from: sketchesofpayne on October 18, 2018, 12:56:34 am
I've noticed this.  In the couple dozen worlds I've genned in 44.12 a lot of them are dominated by elves.  Also, goblins seem to integrate into human civilizations quite often.  Once gameplay begins the elves launch repeated assaults on the humans and dwarves.

Giant elephants driven by immortal female elf Napoleon are suprisingly OP with tactical buffs.
Title: Re: End of Goblin might
Post by: Pvt. Pirate on October 18, 2018, 08:48:42 am
Quote from: Atomisk on October 17, 2018, 09:54:29 pm
Are you sure about that?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
after i added a maxage to the gobbos, the other races finally had fair chances.
Title: Re: End of Goblin might
Post by: snow dwarf on October 18, 2018, 10:56:29 pm
I played around with world gen and indeed goblins still can be mighty. On another note, does anyone know if aquifers impact worldgen sites?
Title: Re: End of Goblin might
Post by: Atomisk on October 19, 2018, 04:39:19 am
Quote from: Pvt. Pirate on October 18, 2018, 08:48:42 am
after i added a maxage to the gobbos, the other races finally had fair chances.
I had an interesting idea once, to remove noeat and nodrink. it has a similar effect. If I recall correctly (I have a terrible memory, this may be incorrect, and versions old info) The food scarcity naturally controls the population, and cause them to become more dependent on trolls, balooning the troll and beakdog numbers even higher but lower goblin counts and high civilization extinction rate by war.
Title: Re: End of Goblin might
Post by: FantasticDorf on October 19, 2018, 09:18:58 am
Goblins are carnivorous, which means that their population food ratio is dependent on livestock like you point out & the hunting profession which means that they need quite a lot of competentcy with weapons and abundant wildlife around them to stay alive and not starve.

How much of this is represented i dont know, in my mods (below is a exerpt of code i use to keep beak dogs & trolls in check) i use the [ANIMAL] code to bypass use of [COMMON_DOMESTIC] so that they aren't infinitely respawning and entirely locked to the population of the site. You could technically kill goblins in a tundra with very poor local animal populations by stealing all their livestock by stealth and whittling away their trolls.

Code: [Select]
[PET_EXOTIC] // on trolls, does affect the game but not as much as you would think, [ALWAYS_PRESENT] will even let tame trolls be imported by traders if appropriate. Goes in creature standard.txt file with regular troll raws replacing [COMMON_DOMESTIC]

[ANIMAL]
[ANIMAL_TOKEN:TROLL]
[ANIMAL_ALWAYS_PRESENT]
Theres some other things you can do to stop civs picking up trolls in world generation such as making banned creature classes, etc [EVIL_PET] across general alignment lines.

If the troll population gets too high in worldgen while playing as non-goblins, and subsequently with some effort you can remove trolls from the goblin sites entirely until some more & new goblin sites are founded by repeatedly hitting a saturated site with raids. I run my goblin fortresses ingame with goblins needing to eat but not drink and it runs fine by my reckoning.

EI - i sort of wish Trolls had inedible meat, as they give a lot when you actually manage to slaughter a adult one, but its too much of a pain to add butchery specifics, especially when you may want fur & bones from them atleast.