Post by: Cthulhu on December 06, 2013, 06:04:59 pm
If you haven't played it or read anything about it, it's a pretty fast-paced TCG set in the Warcraft universe. Most games last five or ten minutes, each deck has thirty cards, and instead of land or stuff you have mana crystals that increment with each turn up to 10. Minions have the usual health and attack, but unlike MTG and such you can directly attack the enemy player or his minions, and health doesn't regenerate.
The biggest thing though is the class/hero mechanic. All the vanilla WoW classes (So no DKs or Monks, at least for now) are in the game, represented currently by one important Warcraft character of that class. Each class has a unique set of cards and a hero power that can be used each turn for two mana, plus there's a big pool of neutral cards that any class can use. As a result decks within a class generally have similar playstyles, though there's always some variation, and you usually have some idea what cards to expect when playing. I kind of see that as a mixed bag pro/con-wise, but overall I like it.
My favorites currently are Warlock, who burns himself with his life tap hero power for massive draw, and Priest, who methodically builds up advantage through his healing and buffing powers and his northshire clerics (who give you a free draw when a minion gets healed) to exhaust the enemy deck and then bust out the big minions for the win.
As far as I know there's currently no singles market or any kind of card economy between players, but you can buy booster packs for gold or real money (gold being gotten through playing the game, so far it's not /too/ bad, you can usually buy a booster pack or maybe two a day, and all the classes can put together reasonably viable decks just from the basic cards you get for free by leveling to 10), and you can also disenchant the cards you get from booster packs and spend the resulting arcane dust to create the cards you want, so unlike that Might and Magic card game you usually have more nuanced options for building than goodcards.dek
As far as I can tell the game's pretty well balanced, none of the classes are way out of line or useless, though the way the card economy works all the decks are a little samey early on. Chillwind Yeti, Acidic Swamp Ooze, Sen'jin Shieldmasta, etc. end up in like every deck.
Anybody else in the beta have some insights? I think I'm getting pretty okay at it.
EDIT: Oh, by far the best and most important mechanic: You can right click your hero portrait to play voice messages like in Left 4 Dead. Also like in Left 4 Dead, spamming them is hilarious.
I greet you, I greet you, I greet you, I greet you, I greet you, I greet you.
Post by: DFNewb on December 06, 2013, 06:13:34 pm
Post by: Seriyu on December 06, 2013, 06:33:37 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on December 06, 2013, 09:35:38 pm
Post by: Seriyu on December 06, 2013, 09:37:13 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on December 07, 2013, 01:09:28 am
Like three times today it's happened. I pick Garrosh. The enemy hunter goes balls to the wall and knocks me down to like 5hp in the first five or six turns. Throws everything but bonking me to the wayside, completely trashes his momentum, ends up forced to just play his draw each turn, loses the game.
And he can't just rely on his hero power because mine counters his >:3
Post by: Reyn on December 07, 2013, 06:47:57 am
I'm on EU, add me if so are you! McFluffins#2135
As for most useless classes, those are Warrior and Hunter. Thanks to current meta, Warrior loses way too much, and Hunters have only one way of winning: UTH. Which is gimmicky, and will receive a nerf in the next patch.
In case you think you're bad at the game, or don't have it yet and want to gain some experience for when you do, I'd suggest you watch some streamers over on twitch (http://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Hearthstone%3A%20Heroes%20of%20Warcraft). Notable people:
- [arena] ek0p(yes, he's worth watching!), TrumpSC, nl_Kripp, apDrop.
- [constructed] savjz, gnimsh
Post by: Teneb on December 07, 2013, 12:58:08 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on December 07, 2013, 02:14:24 pm
Yeah, hunters and warriors both seem on the weak side. The hero power is mostly useless and they both seem to have the issue of running out of steam very easily.
Also, don't buy booster packs I've learned. Arena mode costs 150 gold or $1.99. You get three random hero choices, then the game gives you three random cards and you pick one, repeating the process until you have a full deck. Then you play other arena players in a three-strike system. Once you're out, you get five prizes. One of them is always a booster pack, and the other four can be a variety of things but usually gold and arcane dust. The prizes scale up with your wins.
Basically, 150 gold seems like a lot but even if you lose every game it's almost guaranteed to be worth it. Much more worth it than spending 100 gold on five random cards.
Post by: Neonivek on December 07, 2013, 02:41:42 pm
It wasn't that long ago where they became almost too powerful.
Post by: Cthulhu on December 10, 2013, 02:36:01 am
Post by: Un67 on December 10, 2013, 07:50:38 am
Post by: Max White on December 10, 2013, 07:51:50 am
Arumba's "Concede or fatigue" episodes are pretty amusing. :)
Post by: Cthulhu on December 10, 2013, 03:50:07 pm
From what I've seen hunters are my least favorite. All they can do is uth rush and if that doesn't worj they crash and burn, dumb playstyle. I actually really like priest just because that style appeals to me but I'm trending towards lock now. I have a fucked up lock deck in arena right now, three dreadlords, demonfire, power overwhelming, excessive draw power+mountain giant, and when things are looking grim I can drop one of my immolthar looking dudes down to steal the3ir stats and close it out.
Oh and two summoning portals.
Silly deck, but when it works it's hilarious. Drop a dreadlord, PO, wham, immolthatr
Post by: Teneb on December 10, 2013, 05:55:50 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on December 10, 2013, 06:19:29 pm
Some big changes, Unleash the Hounds now summons a 1/1 hound with charge for every enemy minion, which seems a little silly. Mind Control is up to 10 mana because it's no fun if you have to think about when you drop big minions.
Post by: Teneb on December 10, 2013, 07:45:27 pm
-Removed patch notes, for I think I got the ones from an older patch.
Also, very important: looks like all accounts will wiped, which means you go back to being a new player, in terms of cards (http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/11100276)
Post by: SHAD0Wdump on December 10, 2013, 09:03:43 pm
That was posted 9/26/2013Full patch notes for everyone's convenience:
-Removed patch notes, for I think I got the ones from an older patch.
Also, very important: looks like all accounts will wiped, which means you go back to being a new player, in terms of cards (http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/11100276)
This wipe already occurred.
Post by: kaian-a-coel on December 11, 2013, 02:38:52 pm
My arena run was with a pretty good paladin "Overbuff" deck. The gimmick was "take any minion convenient and stick +4/+4, +1/+1 and +3/+0 until it's 12/7 and the ennemy surrender". Not overly efficient in newbie hands, but it was extremely satisfactory to clear the board with a 8/8, buff it back to 8/7 after it was down to 1hp, summon some more minions, take down the taunt minion from the enemy and get him down to 12hp, then buff the 8/7 to 12/7. Wait three seconds, enjoy the surrender.
How much I would have paid to see the guy's face XD Like "okay, it's okay. I'm not in a good position but he can't kill me this turn. Next one I'm gonna heal and...*+5/+1 on the 8/7*... welp..."
Post by: ukulele on December 11, 2013, 03:15:01 pm
Post by: kaian-a-coel on December 11, 2013, 03:28:20 pm
Besides, it worked pretty much every time I managed to do a huge creature. Most of the time I get one swing, because the creature previously there wasn't exactly threatening, and then it's a 10/7 windfury clawing your face, and then the opponent wastes all of his creatures or spells to get rid of it.
And behind that I can do it again :P
I didn't have only that, I had also some wide-range buffs, like that one sword giving +1/+1 on summon, or the stormwind captain, that kind of things.
That deck had ALL THE BUFFS, and t was glorious.
But I lost three games and now it's gone :(
Post by: ukulele on December 11, 2013, 06:28:50 pm
Post by: Un67 on December 11, 2013, 10:24:46 pm
Post by: Bdthemag on December 11, 2013, 10:26:22 pm
Post by: engy on December 12, 2013, 01:37:35 am
I signed up for the beta, but just looking at some gameplay videos it honestly just seems like an extremely simplified version of MtG, with some carrot on the stick mechanics thrown in to keep people playing for a long time. Am I wrong?
It is not as complex as Magic the Gathering. I would say its quite a bit faster and far far cheaper (free) to actually get into and play. It is a ton of fun to actually play and there are still really cool decks you can build. I highly recommend everyone sign up for the beta and give it a shot. Open Beta starts soon™.
Post by: Cthulhu on December 12, 2013, 01:45:20 am
It's true, it's not as complex as MTG but is that really a problem? I don't know what the fuck is going on in MTG, I don't understand anything. There's a billion cards and some of them are allowed and some of them aren't and I don't know which, and I don't know the synergies or the deck styles or any of that.
Hearthstone I'm getting in on the ground floor. I'm already picking up a good grasp of the cards and how they work, learning how to manage tempo and resources and card/board advantage. MTG presents a pretty big barrier to actually getting seriously into beyond throwing together a goodcards.dek and playing with some friends.
Post by: Lightning4 on December 12, 2013, 03:27:39 am
Probably not that much more though.
Post by: SHAD0Wdump on December 12, 2013, 04:41:35 pm
I'm not going to be so bold as to say hearthstone is completely flawless in its balance or tempo, I can see lots of scrutiny aimed at the coin mechanic for example. But I feel it is quite more defined than MTG in its current state and has plenty of potential to develop further in the future.
Post by: ukulele on December 12, 2013, 05:34:51 pm
Post by: engy on December 12, 2013, 06:22:37 pm
In my opinion no one that played magic, would compare it to HS and say HS is better, not in a single way. Its like comparing dwarf fortress with farmvile. And saying HS is more refined than magic, when cards/heroes need to be balanced every patch with a card number bastly inferior. Yes its easy to pick up and play, yes anyone can build a half-decent deck and yes the game its good. I still think its a little bit way too simple and shallow to even compare to magic, play a few dozen matches and you will probably be already bored, at least that was my case.
I mean no one is saying magic isn't more complex. Hearthstone is very well polished for even a beta - far more polished then MTGO I might add. Yeah the number of cards they have is pretty low - currently. Magic The Gathering's first printing had 295 different cards; Hearthstone currently has 440 (none of them land). Also, you can't really complain about them balancing cards...
There are some really cool and fun constructed decks, and the randomness in building an Arena deck and playing against other people is a ton of fun and games go pretty quick.
Also, unlike MTGO, I can play Hearthstone for free. I'd recommend you give it another shot; but if its not the game for you then its not the game for you.
Post by: Mephansteras on December 12, 2013, 07:47:45 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on December 13, 2013, 02:26:37 am
Except when I play arena I only get the most unbelievably fucked up decks. I just picked mage and got 4 spells, total. No fireball, no pyroblast. Also sometimes I'm winning and then things catastrophically turn around before the other guy got Ysera in his draft and I didn't.
Post by: sambojin on December 14, 2013, 12:22:17 am
MtG Online? PtW (just like the card game).
DotP? Something everyone would buy if 2012/2013/2014 could all compete against each other, even with varying interfaces. Hell, I'd buy it at AAA price if it was legacy-able in MP (it sort of is in SP with mods).
MtG *is* a better card game, DotP *is* MtG-light, but I think Hearthstone blows them both away on their currently fresh model. In ten years? MtG will still be played, regardless of format or "lightness". I doubt Hearthstone is Blizzard's new Diablo 2.
Post by: Un67 on December 15, 2013, 10:29:26 pm
Post by: Jack_Bread on December 16, 2013, 04:55:43 am
I found it surprisingly fun. I've unlocked all the decks so far and won about 3 or 4 of the 6 casual games I've played. Haven't tried Arena yet, though.
The rogue deck has been my favorite to play with so far. I can't wait until my friend gets his beta key so we can play with each other.
Or... actually no, fuck that, he told me he's 100% going to play Mage or Priest because they seem the most like the decks he play in MTG.
Post by: Mephansteras on December 16, 2013, 12:05:40 pm
I'd love to see some sort of team play introduced at some point so you could play co-cooperatively with a friend. That'd be fun.
Post by: Wiles on December 16, 2013, 12:30:53 pm
In my opinion no one that played magic, would compare it to HS and say HS is better, not in a single way. Its like comparing dwarf fortress with farmvile. And saying HS is more refined than magic, when cards/heroes need to be balanced every patch with a card number bastly inferior. Yes its easy to pick up and play, yes anyone can build a half-decent deck and yes the game its good. I still think its a little bit way too simple and shallow to even compare to magic, play a few dozen matches and you will probably be already bored, at least that was my case.
I don't know if complexity is always a better thing. After a while the complexities new editions of magic cards added often felt like added bloat or new gimmicks to sell more cards than they did elements that made the game better. I haven't played magic in a long time, but I do remember that it was often unbalanced just because of the sheer amount of cards they pumped out. You can't "patch" a physical game, the best you can do is make house rules. There was always that one guy who spent way more money than anyone else buying singles to get a deck created from all of the most broken card combos he could lay his hands on.
I'm not trying to say Hearthstone is better than magic or anything, I loved magic back when I played it, just wanted to point out that it suffers from balance issues just as much as Hearthstone does.
Post by: Un67 on December 16, 2013, 06:49:23 pm
http://iforce.co.nz/i/i3c5rqf1.wzu.png
http://iforce.co.nz/i/afmmtjah.ogw.png
That is... a lot of value, if I do say so myself.
I think my play was helped out a lot by a guide (http://ihearthu.com/vivafringes-guide-to-arena/) by vivafringe and his streams (http://www.twitch.tv/vivafringe/profile). He actually does a lot of mental calculations while playing, which has really helped me get all of that stuff down when I actually play myself. Highly recommended.
Post by: TherosPherae on December 19, 2013, 07:25:01 pm
Post by: Mephansteras on December 19, 2013, 07:28:58 pm
Post by: Unusedname on December 19, 2013, 07:34:29 pm
should i be spending gold on packs? or saving them for something else?
edit: wow that's a very interesting guide.
I'll have to test what he says about 2 drops because I figured using your hero ability as much as possible was the best way to accrue an advantage.
but i have been noticing that opposing 2/3 and 3/2 were getting pretty annoying
Post by: Mephansteras on December 19, 2013, 07:37:13 pm
finally got my beta key!!
should i be spending gold on packs? or saving them for something else?
You can either pay for 100 for packs or 150 for the Arena. The Arena is a better investment if you can actually win some games, otherwise you're better off spending the money on packs directly.
Post by: Un67 on December 19, 2013, 07:44:50 pm
Post by: TherosPherae on December 19, 2013, 09:46:44 pm
So I went 6-3 in my first arena run, mostly thanks to having King Krush and three Kill Commands. Gotta say, I'm having a lot of fun, especially when I throw 7/7 taunt tigers at people on turn 6 and it takes them a moment to register just how nutty that is.Apparently, this was a lucky draft indeed. Next 2 Hunter Arena runs went 2-3 and 3-3 - the first one was due to horrible drafting (grabbed Ancient Watcher and Angry Chicken like a dumbass), the second was due to the RNG never giving me my fuckin' beasts. What? All you want is a 2-mana crocolisk, of which you have several to match your 3 Houndmasters? Fuck you, have a Loot Hoarder. And when that loot hoarder dies, fuck you again and have that acidic slime thing.
Anyways, I've not got enough gold to run Arena again, so it looks like it's back to constructed. Yay, maybe I can fill my deck with enough beasts that it's literally impossible for the RNG to not give me one. >_>
Post by: DemonOfWrath on December 19, 2013, 10:50:55 pm
Overall it's pretty fun, I'm just going through arena runs with different classes and just trying stuff out.
Post by: mr. macduggan on December 19, 2013, 11:42:21 pm
Post by: TherosPherae on December 20, 2013, 09:40:42 pm
Anyways, I've not got enough gold to run Arena again, so it looks like it's back to constructed. Yay, maybe I can fill my deck with enough beasts that it's literally impossible for the RNG to not give me one. >_>The saga of RNG-fuckery continues. This time, I managed to daily-quest my way up to enough gold for another Arena run, and drafted a nasty Priest deck. Three Northshire Clerics, two Mind Controls, silence, removal and taunts out the ass. I only managed 4-3 with it because I kept getting Shadow Word Death, Cairn Bloodhoof and those Mind Controls in my starting hand instead of one of my dozen 1-mana cards. Or heck, even one of the many 2-mana cards would have worked, but no. No, that would make too much sense, and not expose me to the nature of the fickle-ass RNG.
Also, Stormwind Champion turns Paladins from pains in the ass to a full-on hemorrhage. 2/2s fuckin' everywhere.
Post by: Unusedname on December 20, 2013, 10:11:42 pm
but the worst pain is realizing you could have had the win but you wiffed it.
Post by: TherosPherae on December 20, 2013, 11:56:29 pm
So i've been playing a couple arenas... i understand the pain of RNGFor some reason I don't think there's any way I could have won this, (http://imgur.com/2HzEAfy) and it's just aggravating as fuck to know that's even possible.
but the worst pain is realizing you could have had the win but you wiffed it.
The game's fun, don't get me wrong, but Blizzard's going to have to do some serious tempering of their RNG (or the cards) to prevent BS like that if they want to keep players around. I mean, I'm 1-2 in an arena right now - one loss was to a rogue who honestly out-strategy'd me. That, I'm OK with. Priest bullshit-buffing an unkillable giant? Not so ok with that.
Edit: Went 1-3 thanks to a Paladin pulling an early Blessing of Kings on a panther and then not drawing any of my early taunt (except for an Abomination which just got eaten by a Truesilver Champion). I think I'm done with Hearthstone for now; it's fun, but between the RNG fuckery and putting the Arena behind a pay-or-3-hours-of-boring-structured wall, it's just not worth my time right now.
Post by: Cthulhu on December 21, 2013, 12:23:14 am
I dunno if they've finally done something about mages but they're the real issue. Something like 6 or 8 different freezes, most of them aoe, a shit ton of control, and with priests nerfed they've brought back the giants and alextrasza. They hold you off with their board control until they can drop Alextrasza and put you at 15 HP where they can burst you down with fireballs and pyroblasts. gg
Post by: Seriyu on December 21, 2013, 08:32:38 am
Post by: ukulele on December 21, 2013, 08:34:54 am
I want to like this game so much but the rate free players get cards at seems glacial. Does it improve later?
The rate its not that bad imo, it just depends on how eager you are (the more the worse) i usually just play to do daily quests and arenas when posible. If you want to grind not doing quests then it is painfully slow.
Post by: Un67 on December 21, 2013, 12:04:02 pm
Post by: TherosPherae on December 21, 2013, 04:08:40 pm
Have a way of one-card killing stuff like that, you're gonna see it again.See, I was about to ask what the fuck kind of cards Druid's supposed to have for 1-shotting that stuff, then I remembered that I refused to draft a Naturalize and slapped myself. Guess my strategy just needs work.
3 divine spirits and an inner fire in arena is still bullshit though
Post by: Seriyu on December 21, 2013, 09:31:30 pm
I want to like this game so much but the rate free players get cards at seems glacial. Does it improve later?
The rate its not that bad imo, it just depends on how eager you are (the more the worse) i usually just play to do daily quests and arenas when posible. If you want to grind not doing quests then it is painfully slow.
Really seems like I'm just pushing too hard then. Thanks!
Once you get to the point where you can reliable get seven wins in the Arena, it isn't nearly so bad, because then you will win enough gold to take another shot. I haven't payed any real money at all and I'm working through the collection at a pretty good pace. For arena, I would again really recommend looking at this (http://ihearthu.com/vivafringes-guide-to-arena/) guide and this (http://ihearthu.com/trumps-arena-card-rankings/). and maybe watching some streams. I think trying to "play along" with the streams really helps you figure out what kind of plays you need to do. vivafringe's (http://www.twitch.tv/vivafringe/profile) streams are really good for that.
Might be worth giving arena a shot eventually then.
Post by: Unusedname on December 23, 2013, 05:31:34 am
Cult Master - This does not protect you from board wipes. (and from the other side) You do not need to silence cult master before you wipe the board.
Druid of the Claw - If you return this to your hand it is stuck in whatever mode you've chosen. I assume the same is true for Ancient of War.
Tokens - These can be returned to your hand! They do not instantly die and they do have their own crystal cost.
Alarm-o-bot - I know this is already accepted as a bad pick and not to be touched in arena, but after using it I've learned that the Minion you switch in does not have it's battlecry activated. And also the minion does not receive charge (I was kind of hoping it would.)
Hopefully some of these help you. The Cult Master thing I've actually run into a couple times the others are a pretty rare occurrence.
Post by: Max White on December 23, 2013, 06:42:38 am
Any just in case it wasn't clear to new players, the coin is a spell, so counter-spell, mana addict, wild pyromancer, all that stuff is affected.
Post by: Mephansteras on December 23, 2013, 12:23:07 pm
Post by: TherosPherae on December 24, 2013, 10:26:53 pm
But you know Mage is OP when even I can pull off a Mage deck.
Post by: Max White on January 03, 2014, 08:37:52 am
When you manage to get two worgen infiltrators with spell power and a hand full of druid removal you are going to have a fun time.
Post by: Aptus on January 03, 2014, 09:37:05 am
I was getting beat down by a paladin in arena, he would have had lethal on me the turn after most likely but he had not bothered to kill off my totems so a bloodlust combined with some windfury and bam! Glorious glorious bloodlust turned a sure defeat into a win :D
Post by: Unusedname on January 06, 2014, 11:10:24 pm
Anybody else tried using ancient mages + stealth minions with a removal heavy deck?
When you manage to get two worgen infiltrators with spell power and a hand full of druid removal you are going to have a fun time.
I wanted to make a deck like this in rogue using conceal and master of disguise. Maybe on a hogger (Spits out 2/2 taunt every turn) or malygos (+5 spell damage).
Fan of knives suddenly becomes a Flamestrike with draw a card for 3.
Shiv becomes starfire for 2.
Post by: Max White on January 07, 2014, 09:27:09 pm
I was also thinking of using the ancient mages + stealth creatures in a mage deck, then running counter spells and spell benders, along with as much early removal I can find and a malygos + 2 pyroblasts for the finish, and maybe something else big as a back up plan. Right now the stealth magic druid deck is a little too susceptible to board clear, so I figure the mage traps should help.
Post by: Unusedname on January 08, 2014, 01:31:06 am
But that doesn't really sound very efficient.
I really hope they add new cards in high frequency. Because sometimes ideas like this are just missing one or two cards that really make them strong.
Post by: Max White on January 08, 2014, 01:38:33 am
Anyway I have tried with the warlock, and using two blood imps will keep them at 2 hp each, be nice low cost, and provide a great buff to other minions, but be a consecrate magnet. Frankly I didn't have the HP to tank the hits and lifetap while setting up.
Also I need to try Ragnaros + Master of Disguise.
Post by: Unusedname on January 08, 2014, 01:52:53 am
Amusing tidbit, Imp Master will also unstealth herself at the end of your turn by doing damage to herself.
Post by: Max White on January 08, 2014, 01:58:06 am
All the good synergies don't real.
Post by: Sordid on January 08, 2014, 02:25:31 am
That is so annoying... I guess not much use to stealth a knife juggler either then.Yeah, I tried that just now with a Master of Disguise. It gives him the stealth for a fraction of a second, then he unstealths himself immediately by throwing a knife. Too bad.
All the good synergies don't real.
Post by: Max White on January 08, 2014, 03:31:26 am
Anybody watch Trump play? If you ever wanted to see a man cry because a single play was just so perfect, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=el2yamvL4Vw)is your chance. Also he teaches you why all the cards you like are crap in arena, and all the cards you ignored win games.
Post by: sambojin on January 24, 2014, 09:50:48 am
I'm only at rank 20 after a fair few games, have only tried 2 classes (mage and shaman), but I think I'm addicted already. Shaman taunt wall shennanigans are fun, even if it is a win big/lose big thing. I've managed to scrape back a few victories from "losing" positions.
Anyway, give it a go. I'll probably drop $20 or so on the game, just due to laziness. It's one of the few ccg's that aren't p2w. At least in the bottom brackets. But I'm having fun and the basic set isn't exactly weak, which is a mark of a good card game.
Post by: sambojin on January 24, 2014, 10:30:02 am
The initial unlock of characters and 2 basic sets of cards got done in 1 play session, so no problems there. 3 or so packs unlocked, without me ever coming up against an opponent that had "lol, I WIN!" cards. Actually, some of my opponents probably thought that about me, and my decks are 90% or more basic cards (all basic unlocks afaik, my decks actually are starting to feel weaker now that I've tried to mix other stuff in).
Quickish ranked match queues, within 30-45secs of initiating one.
And the best part? No actual chat system. It's fucking amazing.
Thank-you Blizzard. I can finally forgive you for Diablo 3.
Post by: Anvilfolk on January 24, 2014, 10:45:24 am
It still has a pretty high level of luck, in that you're top-decking fairly soon (i.e. you only have the one card you are drawing with which to do things) which limits the number of choices you can really make, but it's nice to have a persistent deck that you can change over time and adapt.
Post by: sambojin on January 24, 2014, 11:06:12 am
You can and will top-deck, but it depends on your build. I found it really easy to hold back a few situational cards, or ones that would be better used later, with both a mage control/removal/minion deck and a shaman taunt shield/minion buff-up deck. Both pretty low-mana builds. It's not that you can't burn through the cards, it's more of when it's best to do so. Strategically and all that........
As a huge negative to the game, where the hell does it tell you how much gold you have? I'm running in 1280x800, but regardless, that should be front-and-centre at the shop. That's my biggest beef with the game so far. Gold not told. Free, played for, gold.
Post by: Anvilfolk on January 24, 2014, 11:15:01 am
And yeah, I do that, holding cards thing, especially with the Mage. Those that deal 1 damage to every creature are pretty sweet. They can wipe out a bunch of damaged or weak enemies.
I got a couple of Warrior quests, so played that for a while. It has fewer cards that it makes sense to hold on to, but the one that kills a damaged enemy is a beast :)
Post by: Wiles on January 24, 2014, 11:19:59 am
you only have the one card you are drawing with which to do things
If you find yourself in this situation a lot it might be useful to get rid of some of your lower mana cost cards and/or add some card draw. I started doing better when I remade my decks to have a better mana curve.
Quote
As a huge negative to the game, where the hell does it tell you how much gold you have? I'm running in 1280x800, but regardless, that should be front-and-centre at the shop. That's my biggest beef with the game so far. Gold not told. Free, played for, gold.
It's at the bottom right of the screen, right by the game menu button. Maybe try to see if you can see it in windowed mode at a different resolution?
Post by: sambojin on January 24, 2014, 11:33:21 am
Getting a decent monitor any day now....
Like a non-crt one and everything......
So what does everyone think the current noob-stick is? I'm thinking preists or mages, but I'm also thinking shamans for absolutely horrible(ie:awesome) board control. Overload is a lie and you should never touch it. Priests are still unbelievably reliable though. No damage, just destroy "x" minion. It's just wrong.
Post by: TherosPherae on January 24, 2014, 12:59:26 pm
So what does everyone think the current noob-stick is? I'm thinking preists or mages, but I'm also thinking shamans for absolutely horrible(ie:awesome) board control. Overload is a lie and you should never touch it. Priests are still unbelievably reliable though. No damage, just destroy "x" minion. It's just wrong.Last I checked, cheese-of-the-month is a Hunter rush deck. Unleash the Hounds got buffed so you can play it with a couple Timberwolves and just clear out your enemy's everything, or throw in a Buzzard and get like... four or five cards. Hunter's also the only class with selective card draw in the form of Tracking, too, so setting up combos like this becomes surprisingly easy.
Post by: SHAD0Wdump on January 24, 2014, 03:25:24 pm
Towards the end I was at 14-15 health, and had a commanding board presence with three creatures to nothing after clearing it. He had 2 health and 1 armor.
He plays a Baron Geddon and concedes defeat.
I stare at this for a good few seconds and figure... 'You know what, lets see if he will die by his own Geddon or if by miracle he can stay alive.' So I pass my turn.
He plays a darkscale healer and savage roar, beats me down to probably 3-4. Ends turn killing all of my creatures who were rather damaged.
So I gave him a continued arena run and a thanks for having the balls to play baron geddon at 3 HP. I'd call that a satisfying end.
Post by: TherosPherae on January 24, 2014, 06:52:08 pm
Then he topdecked a Polymorph and I killed him with the sheep anyways.
Post by: sambojin on January 24, 2014, 08:13:00 pm
Post by: AlleeCat on January 25, 2014, 04:25:26 pm
"Oh look at me I'm Jaina Proudmoore I can do 6 damage with 4 mana I can turn your big tough creature into a 1/1 whenever the hell I want and also Arcane Missiles always does the one thing you don't want it to do isn't that great? Sea Giant? More like Sheep Giant!"
I get that Mage is easy to start up with, but the open beta has caused a huge imbalance in that now you're screwed trying to start up a new class because all of the Mages are going to kick your ass.
Post by: baruk on January 26, 2014, 01:50:16 am
My arenas so far have been underwhelming - in four attempts I've managed 3, 3, 2 and 0 wins (druid, rogue, paladin then priest). That priest deck though... I drafted two shadow forms, and did not draw either in the course of my dismal three game run (could have been a nice combination with the Prophet Velen I had - 6 damage hero power anyone?). The arena entrance fee compares very favourably to buying decks outright - I still got two prize boxes even when I lost all 3 games (netting me a booster pack and 30 powder).
Post by: Werdna on January 27, 2014, 11:49:10 am
Questions about Arena:
- Are there any sort of time limits to Arena? Like a timer on card selection?
- Is it a true draft, where by selecting Card X you are denying other players that Card X?
- can you spread your Arena games across several days or must they all be played in a certain timeframe?
- does Arena play satisfy quest requirements (like 'do 100 pts of damage to heroes')?
And an important question - are there any more resets planned? If you spent money to buy packs, how did they handle that with the resets?
Post by: Mephansteras on January 27, 2014, 12:35:20 pm
Post by: engy on January 27, 2014, 01:13:29 pm
Questions about Arena:There is no time-limit on Arena you can spend days/weeks picking the card you want and playing out the games and yeah they totally count towards quests. You don't deny other players cards while drafting.
- Are there any sort of time limits to Arena? Like a timer on card selection?
- Is it a true draft, where by selecting Card X you are denying other players that Card X?
- can you spread your Arena games across several days or must they all be played in a certain timeframe?
- does Arena play satisfy quest requirements (like 'do 100 pts of damage to heroes')?
And an important question - are there any more resets planned? If you spent money to buy packs, how did they handle that with the resets?
There are no more resets planned. The last time they reset it they gave you everything back in gold to re-spend as you like.
Post by: Cthulhu on January 27, 2014, 01:17:18 pm
Post by: ragnar119 on January 27, 2014, 03:05:40 pm
Post by: Thexor on January 27, 2014, 03:41:41 pm
First time i played this type of games, and I somewhat like it. But i really dont like that for a pure PvP game it has a pay to win element in itYep, it does. You can get around the P2W elements if you're successful in the Arena, which is strictly non-P2W and gives a lot of rewards if you get plenty of wins. You can also craft specific cards, so the P2W elements aren't as random as they look.
But ultimately, I'm still a new player. And as soon as I hit rank ~15 and started facing pure-gold decks with multiple legendaries, I realized I had zero chance of improvement unless I spent a few weeks grinding the arena, or spent real money on extra packs. >:(
Post by: Mephansteras on January 27, 2014, 06:29:03 pm
Post by: baruk on January 28, 2014, 12:32:33 am
My arenas so far have been underwhelming - in four attempts I've managed 3, 3, 2 and 0 wins5th attempt at Arena just netted me 9 wins - a Warrior deck with strong early board control. My three losses were against 1) a mage deck that used flamestrikes in two consecutive turns late game to clear my board (just like how it happens in ranked!) 2) a priest that could handle all my threats whilst keeping himself healthy until late game, when he played Onyxia then Prophet Valen 3) a druid deck I reduced to 10 life, before he was able to turn things around mid-to-late with a succession of big creatures. I pinged and executed the sea giant, traded off his ironbark protector, but finally had nothing left to stop his archmage and venture co. mercenary.
Here's the deck (Execute, Abusive Sergeant and Argent Squire were also in there but didn't fit on the page):
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Here's an example of the kind of play you can make with this deck: my 5th game, I'd reached the ten mana point without killing my opponent (a problem for my deck). Both of us are low on life and struggling to get decisive control of the board. I had a few small creatures out, and had been trading blows with the enemy in such a way to keep several of them alive but damaged - for the last card in my hand was a Battle Rage. Playing it netted me four cards (it grants a card for every damaged friendly - three minions and myself) and I passed the turn. My opponent played out his hand at this point, placing down 4/4, 2/3 and 1/1 - I had no taunt and my life was fairly low, so I had to find a way to deal with these guys, ideally without trading off the paltry band of creatures I had left. Luckily, the draw had netted me both knife jugglers, a cruel taskmaster and a youthful brewmaster - resulting in a ten mana play that allowed me to deal nine damage (precisely how I leave as an exercise to the reader), clearing the enemy board and allowing me to secure the win the following round. Much more satisfying than the ubiquitous flamestrike!
Post by: kaian-a-coel on January 28, 2014, 01:08:52 am
But ultimately, I'm still a new player. And as soon as I hit rank ~15 and started facing pure-gold decks with multiple legendaries, I realized I had zero chance of improvement unless I spent a few weeks grinding the arena, or spent real money on extra packs. >:(There's at least one guy who reached Legendary rank (166) with a cheapo warlock deck, using no legendaries, no epic, and I don't even remember seeing rares.
Post by: Max White on January 28, 2014, 05:08:23 am
Seriously guys, you need to think about this game in terms of card advantage. At every point you should be thinking 'How many cards will my opponent use to take care of this, and how many cards am I using against my opponent?'
Cult master and auctioneer are great for refunds on your cards. Loot hoarder gives you a refund. Argent commander will almost always trade two for one. Stormwind knight will also get good trades a surprising number of times. Yeti is the nuts.
Anything with 1 health isn't that great. Anything that reduces the cost of summoning minions or casting spells might be awesome in constructed, but don't bother in the arena. Windfury is sometimes good, but not as good as you think.
Post by: engy on January 28, 2014, 09:15:48 am
Example:
1/1 Windfury Dragonhawk ; 3/3 Raging Wargen; 1/7 Mog. Warden if you pick the 3/3 Wargon every-time it comes up think if it was the best card in that situation eventually you find one that is the best overall for your style of play. That 1/1 Dragonhawk is amazing with Pally Buffs. That 1/7 Mog Warden can be good in a priest deck.
And its important to think about it for your style of play because there are some cards out there that might be really good for you; but not good for other people. So like Max White is really big on card advantage so he probably doesn't pickup Freezing Trap or Sap. Which are amazing tempo cards that can buy you time to get into your late game deck or push through for the victory, but they will basically never get you a card advantage.
Post by: Puzzlemaker on January 28, 2014, 11:37:42 am
I fail badly. To be fair, most of the games were pretty close. But still, it sucks.
Post by: Mephansteras on January 28, 2014, 12:32:29 pm
Post by: Puzzlemaker on January 28, 2014, 02:49:02 pm
Post by: Max White on January 28, 2014, 03:13:02 pm
1/1 Windfury Dragonhawk ; 3/3 Raging Wargen; 1/7 Mog. Warden if you pick the 3/3 Wargon every-time it comes up think if it was the best card in that situation eventually you find one that is the best overall for your style of play. That 1/1 Dragonhawk is amazing with Pally Buffs. That 1/7 Mog Warden can be good in a priest deck.Easy choice.
Assuming I can buff the dragonhawk, that is going to take another card, so it is two card minimum to get any sort of use. If I give it blessing of kings, is a 5/5 with wind fury going to kill two or more other cards around turn 4 or 5? Well maybe there is a lot that can deal with it, it has a little potential, but I wouldn't really depend on it.
Will the warden ever trade two for one at about turn four? Very rarely... It can be useful for mages who often want to lower the heath of everything just enough to have them in range, but honestly normally it is just a turn or two of delayed damage for no advantage.
Is the wargen going to trade for two or more around turn 3? Often yea, it will. At this point there might be some one or two cost minions with very low attack, it becomes a magnet for good removal, they will somehow over react to it. wargen is winning.
Post by: Mephansteras on January 28, 2014, 05:49:41 pm
From that standpoint, Windfury is always a very late choice for me when building an Arena deck. You either have a bunch of cards that make it worthwhile in some way (Creatures with a buff Battlecry are good for that) or something that having a distraction creature can help protect.
Otherwise, they rarely get to accomplish much before dying and become very expensive for their power.
That said, with the right support cards in your deck that windfury dragonhawk can do some serious damage early game. I had one game where I got one up to 3/1 with a divine shield on it by turn two With the help of a swordsmith, whatever that crusader is who puts a DS on a minion, and...something else I can't recall. All told it did about 7 damage and killed off a pretty nice critter on the enemy side before it died. Not bad for a 1 cost critter! (It might have been even more effective, I can't remember how it died now. But it either took out another creature or soaked a spell card for me, so it did good damage and took out 2 cards with it)
Post by: Max White on January 28, 2014, 06:15:42 pm
As for the dragonhawk doing work (And yes, it is one cost), it wasn't just one minion doing that work, it was also the other two you used, meaning you used three cards for those trades... Ok so swordsmith + argent protector have other perks that you get to maintain, notably a 2,2 and you keep the swordsmith, so call it the value of 2 cards. Point is if you use 2 cards to take care of 3, you have a 1:1.5 ratio, but if you had just used one card to to take care of two you have a much better ratio of 1:2.
Yes, there is also curve and momentum to think about, so the dragonhawk combo might have been the best play, but I still only rank the dragonhawk as average at best.
Post by: Mephansteras on January 28, 2014, 06:37:03 pm
So, given a deck that was pretty heavy on creatures with Battlecry buffs, a late Dragonhawk pick can be pretty good. An early Dragonhawk pick, however, is probably a bad move.
This is all advice for Arena, of course. A constructed deck entails a very different thought process since you're limited by what your collection has, not on an arbitrary 1-of-3 cards that may never show up again.
Post by: Max White on January 28, 2014, 06:41:21 pm
Post by: sambojin on January 28, 2014, 08:35:12 pm
In ranked I'm having a bit of a harder time, although I'm happy with my deck's cards currently. I'm trying a more-draw/slightly accelerated version of it now, so I'll see how it goes. I only really want a stone elemental or two and I think the deck will be complete. Still not sure of the best pick between AoP and manatide totem, or if the pint-sized summoner will really work out, but I'll see.
Haven't spent a cent on the game yet and I'm having fun, but I'll probably throw that $20 at it this arvo. There's at least that amount of fun in the game.
Post by: Max White on January 28, 2014, 08:42:45 pm
I just do arena and hope that I make enough coins for another run, otherwise need to go questing.
Post by: sambojin on January 29, 2014, 01:30:17 am
The pint-sized summoner is great however. It auto-magically takes one of your opponents removal cards immediately after being played, at which point you play the big minion you were going to play anyway, but your opponent has less removal to deal with it. They should change the text box to reflect its actual use.
Post by: Max White on January 29, 2014, 01:58:04 am
Post by: sambojin on January 29, 2014, 07:28:30 pm
Just hanging out for a stone elemental. My g.berserkers are stand-ins and they know it. Although, they're going suprisingly well for a weak card. Any other good 5 drops for a taunt and buff heavy deck until I get the elementals?
Post by: SHAD0Wdump on January 29, 2014, 08:30:33 pm
I sort of thought that shamans were known for health buffs. Behind priests and pallys sure, but running at a reasonable 3rd. Healing totems, ancestoral healing, young priestesses and even witch doctors all work very well in the deck, even if two of those are neutrals. One of the best things about the AoP is that it is the perfect thing to remove a hexed minion, even without buffs. You might not get the card draw, but at least your stompy hitters and taunt walls can do what they do best. I'm keeping it, and may sub out the totem for another.I'd highly recommend Silver Hand Knights and Frostwolf Warlords since you are likely rocking bloodlust and the warlord works well with split minions as well.
Just hanging out for a stone elemental. My g.berserkers are stand-ins and they know it. Although, they're going suprisingly well for a weak card. Any other good 5 drops for a taunt and buff heavy deck until I get the elementals?
Besides that, if you use a decent amount of spells, Venture Co. Mercs can help you take the board back in situations where your hand is too full of spells and is a damn decent target for a windfury buff. Since you mentioned a taunt deck, I'd toss in a Gadgetzan Auctioneer as well if you have enough spells.
Besides that, Darkscale Healers might be able to keep your taunts healthy, Stormpike Commandos can sit safely behind your taunts after dropping their shot, and Azure Drakes are always good for keeping up the cards while putting threats down.
Bump up the potential of the Drakes if you use a decent number of shaman damage spells.
Beyond that, all I could find besides a couple legendaries are Stampeding Kodos, Fen Creepers, and Faceless Manipulators. Since you have a buff heavy deck the facelesses might do you some good.
Post by: sambojin on January 29, 2014, 08:58:16 pm
On the philosophy of card game design, I'm not sure if they've got it perfect with Hearthstone, but it's better than most. Let's face it, it's a CCG, which means that having better cards than your opponent in your deck will make winning easier. Bloodfen Raptor vs any other 3/2 2 drop with a text box is the easiest example. It's a simple upgrade to anything with a text box (although in a face-roll hunter deck it is great. It has a text box. Beast). Although, it's not a bad card in a weeny deck, there's just better ones, plain and simple.
PTW? Not really. Pay to accelerate moving up the ranks more-so. If it's important to you to be a diamond player and you don't want to spend months getting there, then buy 450 packs. You'll only have yourself to blame if having 2 of every card didn't let you win.
Super-duper-legendaries? I like them. Even really-good-rares. Most have a downside or are situational. But some are slightly op'd. Kind of. Since the game has very powerful removal, silence, polymorphs, freezes and direct damage available to every class, they're not that big of a problem. Some rares are too good, some legendaries are a must-take at "we all have heaps of cards now" level of play. It's a CCG. They're like that.
But that's it. P2W? Not really. Your rank has very little to do with your skill. It's just a card bracket.
"How many cards have I unlocked and does it reflect my skill against others with similar cards?"
But on character design....... Bleh. The priest is pretty brokenly good, as well as hunter face-roll. They're being fixed. Hopefully. This is at crappy ranks, the broken gets smoothed out at higher card ranks.
So pay to be lazy, or be a priest or hunter and earn some gold. If I got a high rank after a couple of weeks of play in a fairly large CCG, I sort of wouldn't want to pay any money for it. It would mean that the game or the ranking system was broken. This seems fine. In another 3 weeks or so most of the mages clogging ranked will move on anyway, which is a pity really.....
Post by: miljan on January 30, 2014, 03:03:31 pm
But that's it. P2W? Not really. Your rank has very little to do with your skill. It's just a card bracket.
The game is a definition how you do good (in a way) p2w, but it still is p2w.
As a pure PvP game, paying $$$ you are getting clear advantage compared to people that dont pay. Even if you can get all the cards with grinding, the game is still p2w. The question is not is the game p2w (because it is, as it does the basic thing any p2w game does), but is the amount and how it is implemented ok for you personally or not. For me, it is acceptable
There are a lot of way you do p2w, and you need to do them even more fair if you gonna make a game around PvP. The one they have is ok, not the worst, but also not the best one.
Post by: Un67 on January 30, 2014, 04:31:23 pm
Post by: SHAD0Wdump on January 30, 2014, 07:24:45 pm
Beyond that, I can see an advantage and a disadvantage to buying all the cards. On one hand you get a lot more flexibility from the get-go in creating decks. On the other hand, you remove a large portion of the progression offered.
If I were to pay money on this game I'd likely put it into arena runs before I'd buy card packs, I feel like I'd be robbing myself of something if I just gave myself most of the cards. Though this might be from my sense that I'm going to be playing hearthstone for a long time.
Post by: sambojin on January 31, 2014, 03:29:12 am
Post by: sambojin on February 03, 2014, 07:11:23 pm
It's handy though. I can finally level a few other classes a bit. It does seem like I'm playing in a totally different card bracket though, with rares and legendaries being pulled everywhere (at ranks 25-20). Maybe it has to do with my shaman's level? It's around 27 now, but most my other toons haven't even unlocked all the basics yet.
Either way, the game seems heaps more fun now. Far harder, and with something to always keep me on my toes. Whatever happened, it was a good thing. I now have an equal hate for all classes, not just priests. Everyone can pull off some freaky stuff now.
Has anyone else had a rank reset that seems to up their card bracket?
Post by: ragnar119 on February 03, 2014, 07:21:34 pm
Post by: sambojin on February 03, 2014, 07:35:55 pm
On average, they are the best. Kill them every chance you get, and be a bit of an arse-hole about it. This is your unwritten quest every single day in Hearthstone.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 03, 2014, 07:50:56 pm
Overall my enjoyment of hearthstone has kind of soured. Early on it was fun, but as I mentioned in the Infinity Wars thread sometimes Hearthstone kind of feels distilled. Like they've cut every ounce of fat from the CCG model. That's not all necessarily bad, but sometimes I feel like I'm playing a two-player math puzzle. I solved that puzzle with my warlock aggro deck, only mages in their extremely overpowered phase at the end of closed beta could consistently beat me. Nothing more than 5 mana, only five or six spells. Just extreme momentum and tempo control that forces the enemy to use all of his resources on a defensive battle he can't win.
At that point the game stops being fun. I won 9/10 games with that deck and most of the time it wasn't even close.
Post by: sambojin on February 03, 2014, 08:07:55 pm
I hate to admit it, but a weeny buff/charge/removal deck it looking pretty powerful in the current meta. It probably won't be as satisfying to win with, but it'll probably win more often.
Give the game another go Cthulu. There's plenty of well developed decks now to play against, and a massive pool of players now. You might find a challenge every once in a while.
ps. Do you play as Cthulu on there? I may have been roflstomped by you (unless my totems/bloodlust did likewise to you).
Post by: Max White on February 05, 2014, 01:06:08 am
Post by: sambojin on February 05, 2014, 03:03:34 am
Post by: Something Evil on February 05, 2014, 10:11:27 pm
Otherwise pouring a hundred plus bucks into the game, getting everything that catches your fancy, and rushing in with some of the daftest cards ever (Doomhammer, meet Ooze) would still get you into at least midway into single digit ranks if not higher.
Also, Auchenai Soup Priests are <3.
Post by: Max White on February 05, 2014, 10:50:51 pm
Also, one day I will Harrison Jones an undamaged Doomhammer while holding no other cards... One day.
Post by: Something Evil on February 06, 2014, 12:46:04 am
Jaraxxus' Blood Fury, on the other hand...
Post by: Max White on February 06, 2014, 01:10:10 am
I've got to start actually running that card and wait for a Warlock... Except the only time they ever use Jaraxxus is as late as possible, so by that point I may not even have eight cards left to draw and put myself deep in fatigue! Oh the cruel irony!
Anyway, the advantage that Doomhammer has over Truesilver is firstly the attack is split in two, allowing you to kill two low health minions instead of wasting your entire attack on one, and secondly it gives your hero windfury, meaning that Rockbiter and Spiteful Smith are both twice as effective. It takes some setup, and you will take some damage, but getting a good combo with it can be pretty devastating.
In other words, don't pick it in arena.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 06, 2014, 08:52:10 am
Anyway, Cthulhu, if you made a good deck and were rocketing up the rankings wouldn't you eventually make it to the point where other people have figured out the game as much as you and you were not longer facerolling everyone? Although I guess at that point it becomes a game of predicting and breaking the meta and luck of the draw. Which doesn't sound fun to me.
Also Arena is the way to go if you don't like laddering and it's the only thing I play nowadays. It's just pure luck and skill and a touch of mind reading. Quite fun.
Post by: WealthyRadish on February 06, 2014, 09:26:14 am
I think I pinpointed why I hate Mages/Priests, and spells for that matter. The (arguably only) thing that's really fun about Hearthstone is managing the minions, using their attack/health combinations and varied traits to efficiently gain control and options. Completely goes out the window for a Mage, who can spend the whole game with their finger in their butt reacting to whatever their opponent plays, coming out with a card advantage. Playing a minion means thinking about how that minion will trade with enemy minions, ways the opponent can react, and building towards some kind of a plan that synergizes with what's in the hand/deck. A spell just ignores all existing minion mechanics, and instantly reacts to the current situation, rarely with any need to care about the next turn or the overall strategy for the match. The game would be much better if the focus were heavily shifted towards minions, IMO. There's some other incidental stuff like the existence of pyroblast and the laughable mana cost of shadow word cards, but at its core I think spells should be made much less efficient and viable.
Rogue doesn't feel as braindead since spells usually need to be combined to be effective, and they lack the easy-mode two damage AOE so many other classes have. I also like the emphasis on weapons, which feel much more balanced than spells.
Post by: baruk on February 11, 2014, 05:58:41 pm
I think I pinpointed why I hate Mages/Priests, and spells for that matter. The (arguably only) thing that's really fun about Hearthstone is managing the minions, using their attack/health combinations and varied traits to efficiently gain control and options. Completely goes out the window for a Mage, who can spend the whole game with their finger in their butt reacting to whatever their opponent plays, coming out with a card advantage. Playing a minion means thinking about how that minion will trade with enemy minions, ways the opponent can react, and building towards some kind of a plan that synergizes with what's in the hand/deck. A spell just ignores all existing minion mechanics, and instantly reacts to the current situation, rarely with any need to care about the next turn or the overall strategy for the match.My take is that perhaps the "blow up the enemy side of the board" cards are a little undercosted, and the mage gets too many of them: arcane explosion, blizzard, cone of cold, flamestrike etc. The shadow word cards for priest are very cost effective, but as a priest player I hate the way it leaves you vulnerable to the four attack creatures, it just seems like a pretty cheesy bit of game "balance": I would prefer a more expensive shadow word death that kills anything four attack and up.
I've found myself using charge creatures quite a lot in my aggro decks as a sort of quasi-direct damage spell - especially in the Shaman deck, who seems to get almost no creature removal in his basic set. One of the main differences between hearthstone and magic the gathering is that it presents board control with minions as a central theme of the game, since your grunts can directly attack each other. It creates an environment where to be useful, creatures need to either act right away, be tough/elusive enough to survive for a turn, or be completely expendable cannon fodder.
I've been writing up my Arena rounds - it seems like a way of learning the game and identifying mistakes whilst staving off frustration and burnout. Here's one I played last night, a not especially notable 3-3 run with hunter (didn't edit it too much, hopefully my notes aren't too cryptic):
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: sambojin on February 11, 2014, 08:51:42 pm
I actually still think that it's the most varied and fun deck to play in constructed. Not only are normal things like board and card advantage, removal, trades, win conditions, etc important features of the deck, simple board position, order of attacks, order of card-play, distorted mana curve and ramps are very important as well. It feels more strategic, even with a random hero power. It's not the most powerful deck, but it is the one where wins either feel solid or clutch plays. Or both. Either way, I'd prefer hearthstone went the shaman way than many others. It has enough options to construct a wide variety of decks and strategies, with all of them being pretty viable. I'd love the full set of cards eventually to see what I could do with it.
The most powerful? No.
The most varied builds, mechanics and enjoyment? Yes. At least for me.
Post by: engy on February 11, 2014, 09:09:21 pm
http://hss.io/
https://github.com/JeromeDane/HearthStats.net-Uploader/releases
Its a place to track your hearthstone stats and a java autouploader for it. Kind of neat and useful.
Post by: Max White on February 11, 2014, 10:24:08 pm
Stonetusk boar is 1 mana + 1 card to do one damage. Not really worth it. I guess as a hunter it can be justified with buzzards, hyenas and buffs, but even then it is questionable. Still, you did have a few of those cards, so it may have been a strong choice. Just a shame you didn't have any "Release the hounds"If this is interesting to anyone, I've got a bunch more arena run write-ups I can deposit here.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Explosive trap is deal 2 damage to all enemies, similar in scale to holy nova, but much cheaper. The problem is that as soon as you play a trap as a hunter people expect it, so they are careful about their health totals, and also they control when it is triggered. Any good player will play around it. I wouldn't get more than two of them.
War Golem isn't amazing. It isn't bad, but don't get sucked in by the 7,7. Nothing wrong with having one of them, but there is a good chance you had a better choice and didn't realize.
Core hound is too top heavy and too easy to deal 5 damage. It would be a decent card if they lowered mana cost and attack by one, but such it life. Not bad, but also look at your other options.
Alarm-o-bot, what are you doing buddy? You don't belong in an arena deck!
Post by: baruk on February 12, 2014, 04:44:21 am
I stand by stonetusk boar. It's effectively one direct damage, a beast, and a one drop - this is enough to justify a slot in a hunter arena deck - I feel that 3 or 4 one drop creatures seems to be about the right amount (I had 4). I suspect the alternative choices were murlocs.Stonetusk boar is 1 mana + 1 card to do one damage. Not really worth it. I guess as a hunter it can be justified with buzzards, hyenas and buffs, but even then it is questionable. Still, you did have a few of those cards, so it may have been a strong choice. Just a shame you didn't have any "Release the hounds"If this is interesting to anyone, I've got a bunch more arena run write-ups I can deposit here.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote from: Max White
Explosive trap is deal 2 damage to all enemies, similar in scale to holy nova, but much cheaper. The problem is that as soon as you play a trap as a hunter people expect it, so they are careful about their health totals, and also they control when it is triggered. Any good player will play around it. I wouldn't get more than two of them.I also had one copy of the Snipe secret (deal 4 damage to a newly summoned minion) to keep them guessing. Area damage seems quite valuable, but explosive trap is perhaps not the best form of it, but perhaps the best a hunter can manage. My opponents did indeed work around it for the most part, and it usually only managed a 1 for 1 trade.
Quote from: Max White
War Golem isn't amazing. It isn't bad, but don't get sucked in by the 7,7. Nothing wrong with having one of them, but there is a good chance you had a better choice and didn't realize.I stand by these choices - war golem in particular seems like a decent arena card for a late game slot. I genuinely wasn't offered anything better. Alarm-o-bot's relative value goes up when you have a bunch of big creatures, so if I'm going to play it at all, this was the just the deck for it. It's definitely a "fun" card, and the first time I've tried it out - there's nothing like testing a card in the field to get a sense of how it works, and how opponents react to it. However, one of the main things I discovered was that it has terrible synergy with faceless manipulator and ironbeak owl, cards that want to sit in your hand until just the right moment.
Core hound is too top heavy and too easy to deal 5 damage. It would be a decent card if they lowered mana cost and attack by one, but such it life. Not bad, but also look at your other options.
Alarm-o-bot, what are you doing buddy? You don't belong in an arena deck!
Post by: Max White on February 12, 2014, 05:00:57 am
Post by: baruk on February 12, 2014, 06:06:27 am
Post by: baruk on February 12, 2014, 08:15:52 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: tryrar on February 12, 2014, 09:21:50 am
Post by: baruk on February 12, 2014, 09:48:10 am
Question:why in the world did you take an arcane golem?! a 4/2(which can die to many one/two cost creatures) is NOT worth giving your opponent a free mana crystal. Chances are, he'd use that extra crystal to play something that makes the golem irrelevant, charge or no chargeGreat question! The choice in that case was between mana addict, arcane golem and mana wraith:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SHAD0Wdump on February 12, 2014, 11:36:21 am
Post by: Max White on February 13, 2014, 05:15:34 am
Post by: palsch on February 13, 2014, 07:33:04 am
Let's assume you are looking at it using the common arena assessment; you get the card without anything else on your side of the board, without any other specific cards (so no certain combos or follow up), on any turn you could play it (but with emphasis on the first one).
The main scenario where it's strong is, well, that. You get a Harvest Golem to play onto your empty board at the start of turn three (or coin into on turn 2) and it's more likely you will get a body left on the board going into turn 4 than with any other 3 health minion or 3-drop in general. It is also good when playing against late game AOE to have something left on the board that requires some extra resources beyond the first spell. Against turn 4 consecrates or turn 7 flamestrikes that can be a significant advantage.
Looking at all neutral common 3 drops (http://www.hearthhead.com/cards?filter=qu=1;type=4;cl=0;stat-cost-min=3;stat-cost-max=3) this becomes even more obvious.
The Jungle Panther's stealth means it will likely survive the turn, but then it's only likely to trade 1-1 and any 2 attack 1-3-drop will be able to clean it up. A halfway awake opponent can play around it and deny it the option of trading up (unlike a charge minion) or hit it with AOE (plays right into a turn 4 or 5 consecrate). It actually gets better late game, assuming they don't have that AOE to waste on it, when it's more likely to trade up so long as you can survive the turn and they can't drop a taunt in its way.
Razorfen Hunter gives you an extra body straight up, but only at a 1/1 (unlikely to trade up, likely to be pinged, potentially lets them enrage a minion) and more vulnerable to AOE cleaning both of them off the board.
Scarlet Crusader is really nice, but if they clear her on their turn the odds are they can do it more efficiently than clearing a Golem. Any two 1 damage hits kill her, compared to a 3 and a 1 for the Golem, so unless playing onto a board where they will have to trade down to deal with her you would get better value from the Golem.
Shattered Sun Cleric comes close to being more valuable, but needs to have another minion on the board to be effective. It's painful to play her out as a 3/2 3-drop if you aren't getting that buff. Ironically running her alongside the Golem means you are more likely to always have a buff target.
As for why it ranks so highly overall, 3-drops are generally valuable. Given the way most decks build their mana curve you would expect people to value 3-4-drops most highly. Looking at Trump's rating (http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=513) you see the two most powerful common neutral 4-drops, then the two most powerful common neutral 3-drops. I'd almost reverse this, as there are lots of excellent class specific 4 drops and only a handful of such 3-drops, although that does obviously depend on the class you are playing.
Post by: Max White on February 13, 2014, 03:25:15 pm
The advantage of the Golem is that with 3 health + shield instead of 1 + shield it is actually capable of surviving more than two hits. If your undamaged golem takes a hit and doesn't die it starts doing work, but even then it isn't that amazing. You can expect it to engage in combat about three times (About two for the main body and one for the backup) then it will do six damage overall. As opposed to the Crusader that will be doing six anyway, except it can get that six damage off onto higher damage minions that would outright kill the Golem in one hit (Reducing him to two attacks).
Yes, the Crusader is a higher variance play, but I think the rewards are greater than the risks, especially when for a lot of classes, 1 damage twice in a turn is actually not that common.
Post by: baruk on February 13, 2014, 05:04:46 pm
Well, I did it - I made a screenshot of every card selection I got in a draft, I'll get around to transcribing them later - lots of controversial choices to argue over! I chose Druid from the selection as I haven't played them much in arena (Mage and Warrior were the other options). For now, here's the deck - very importantly, there's also 2 innervate (0 cost, gain two mana crystals this turn only) in the deck, cut off from the top of the list:So I narrowed down the six most difficult picks I had in the draft (I'll probably post the full list later). See what you make of these, first spoiler gives you the choice I had, second spoiler explains my decision:Any predictions on how I will fare? I haven't played any games with it yet. Since I went to this trouble, I fully expect to fall flat on my face and post a 0/3.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Controversial pick #1:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Max White on February 13, 2014, 05:13:39 pm
2. MCT is all of the good stuff.
3. I think bite was actually the right choice here.
4. Not the best choices, but claw was the most solid pick.
5. Force of nature easy. Mountain giant is worst giant.
6. Ancient of war, it is a better card and your mana curve was begging for a heavy drop instead of another 3.
Post by: palsch on February 13, 2014, 07:51:07 pm
Yes, the Crusader is a higher variance play, but I think the rewards are greater than the risks, especially when for a lot of classes, 1 damage twice in a turn is actually not that common.Very simply, the value assessments reflect this statement. IF you build a deck and/or encounter situations where the risk/reward trade of Crusader over Golem is worthwhile, it's a better card. IF you take all possible situations into account and assume nothing, the Golem has an edge.
As for that draft, I agree with Max on most of those.
1) Ironbark is nice.
2) Mind Control Tech is either a solid 3/3 for 3 or one of the few Hail Mary plays I've actually had pay off and win me a lost game.
3) When it comes to the Nourish/Bite/Mana Wraith choice your mana curve is almost too flat and you have two Innvervates without excess late game, so the Nourish would be wasted. Bite is more reliable than Wraith, so right choice.
4) This is a toss up for me. Bite is far more reliable (don't need a good minion on the board for it to be useful, plus cheap to throw into a turn), but you have 3 cards that work better enraged (Berserker and 2x Raging Worgen). Those are tempting Mark targets for me. Probably would have gone with the MotW on this, but only just.
5) Having the Ironbark would have made this easier, but even so the FoN is the only real option.
6) Not having the Ironbark made the AoW a must-have. I had a 0-3 Druid run today (3 Swipes in deck, 0 drawn in 3 games, GG) where I took two Ancients of Lore over Ancients of War because I expected to go late game and need the draw. I never made it to a point where I was top-decking. A single AoW over AoL would have saved me at least one game (painfully close...) and potentially kept me in a second. Blood Knight is still nice, but frankly without any shields in your deck it's a 3/3 for 3 most of the time. Still reasonable, but not compared to the alternative or in your 3-drop rich deck.
The other two questionable cards are the Winfury Harpy (don't think I've ever seen one of these swing in a game where there wasn't lethal without it) and Arcane Golem where I'd have gone with the Wraith. Both are situational, but the Wraith carries far less downside than the Golem.
Post by: Max White on February 13, 2014, 09:59:48 pm
EDIT: Oh my god it comes with German voice acting! This is amazing!
Post by: Mephansteras on February 14, 2014, 02:03:42 pm
Post by: baruk on February 14, 2014, 03:55:14 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
- Innervate has to do something significant to justify its inclusion, either by helping you get early board control, doing a lot of damage, or just regaining the card that it cost. Playing a first turn 3/3 doesn't cut it when you're in an environment with a lot of cheap 3 damage removal cards - perhaps a second turn yeti or a third turn druid of the claw would have been more impactful. To make an M:tG reference, it's a dark ritual that has yet to find its hypnotic spectre. Also, drawing both innervates in the opening hand is pretty bad, so perhaps only use one at most.
- Blood knight is not a metagame pick, it's just a gamble in a deck without divine shield. Also, two of the strongest sources of divine shield tend to use up that shield the turn they come into play: argent protector and argent commander.
- Removal rules the Arena. If you don't have enough removal, perhaps you can survive to late game by playing out a never ending stream of chunky minions, keeping the enemy busy. To turn things around, you need a late game powerhouse: here's where I could have used the ironbark protector and ancient of war. These definitely seem like the correct picks in hindsight. My concern is consistency, getting stuck too often with late game in the opening hand, so I prefer aggro-style decks that focus the mana curve on 2 and 3 drops. You can definitely take this approach too far.
Here's the full draft of my druid deck (my picks bolded). Perhaps there's a really good deck hiding in there somewhere:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Max White on February 14, 2014, 05:19:26 pm
Post by: Werdna on February 17, 2014, 11:59:56 am
- Innervate has to do something significant to justify its inclusion... Playing a first turn 3/3 doesn't cut it when you're in an environment with a lot of cheap 3 damage removal cards
True, but look at it this way regarding the removal. In the 3rd game where he used a cheap removal to counter - you just drew out one of his best removal cards in the first few rounds on a cheap (but good) minion. That removal card was in his hand and going to be cast at some point in your game, Innervate or not; what the Innervate did was force it out early, adding that much more safety margin to your later minions. Like you said, Removal is really important in Arena, so you essentially traded Innervate and a cheap minion to remove one of his best removal cards. Not the best possible trade in terms of # of cards, but not a terrible one in the grand scheme. Ideally, as you said, you'd be Innervating to get out something a bit more impactful than the Worgen - but what would've stopped him from using the Wrath to make that 'impactful minion' into easy pickings for one of his disposable minions? Arguably, even an early worgen is solid, your Innervated worgen won you game 1 by putting out an early beatdown - how many games do you see the opponent at 15 on turn 4?
I'd argue you lost Game 3 for other reasons. The Claw/PowerOTW/Raptor/Worgen for Tazdingo/Swipe/-9 health bought him a 2 card advantage at the overall cost of his health. Arguably, you could've played conservative, and saved Innervate and Coin to eventually coin out a big creature (in this case Stormwind C) and used the Worgens/Raptor as early trade and removal bait; that might've gone better, but that's hindsight.
Edit: I just caught your Dark Ritual reference; it's a good observation. But a counterargument is that in Magic, people run decks that are vastly more loaded with removal than you'll ever see in Hearthstone Arena. Dark Ritual to get out an early black heavy of questionable flavor is just removal bait in constructed play, but Dark Ritual would be much nastier in draft-style play when removal is not nearly as common. The reason Dark Ritual 'needed' Hypno S was because removal was so common in constructed that the combo must have great potential to risk losing two cards to one.
Post by: palsch on February 17, 2014, 04:04:32 pm
Then today I started a Shaman arena and got a few rather nice cards. See;
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Unfortunately I disconnected during the fourth game after going 3-0. So it's now a 3-1 unbeaten deck...
Post by: Siquo on February 17, 2014, 06:03:16 pm
Post by: Max White on February 17, 2014, 07:23:49 pm
So I play this too, now, apparently. Though not very well.First mistake every new player makes: This is not a 'who ever has more health is winning' game, this is a 'who ever has more cards in hand/minions on the board/unused key cards' is winning game. Go from there... Or watch Trump play, I do.
Post by: Thexor on February 17, 2014, 11:38:39 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on February 18, 2014, 01:01:15 pm
I think Pint Sized Summoner was a good pick. MCT can be great, but most of the time I find it to just end up being 3/3. The Summoner has two nice things going for her: One, she meshes well with your creature-heavy deck. If she lives past the first turn, she's probably going to be quite helpful. Second, she's a cheap target. People put a LOT of emphasis on killing creatures like her, and I've seen people waste removal cards on her when I had much more dangerous things out. Her advantage, more often than not, is psychological as much as it is mechanical.
I know this is a bit old. But I disagree with this pretty heavily. The MCT is so far above the pint sized summoner in my opinion that I literally can't think of a situation where I would ever take her above him. The thing is one mana rarely actually matters, the times it really matters most is when you will be behind and desperately need a big guy on the board, but in those cases your summoner is already dead because it will die the turn you lose board control.
At best it's a coin every turn, sure, that's great. On average the fact that she is so weak means your opponent probably killed her for cheap or even free.
The MCT on the other hand will always be good. If you are behind and need a body he is better. If you are ahead you can hold him in your hand for value way above what the summoner can ever expect (even if you just take a totem or recruit the MCT is still probably just there done better then the summoner will a vast majority of time.)
As for psychological advantage. Eh, I won't debate that it can be a huge thing in games. But with pint sized summoner only causing fear well on the table and being so easy to remove (unlike the real psychological cards like flame strike and pyroblast) it's pretty much minimal most of the time and it's always inverse to the skill of your opponent. If you are fighting a guy who innervates a swipe or something on turn two to kill a summoner you are probably fighting a guy who you could have won against anyway.
Edit: I realized this post comes off really negative on the summoner. And perhaps that's too harsh. She's not terrible. (Although I might go as far as to say bad.) but the MCT is great.
Post by: Mephansteras on February 18, 2014, 01:32:21 pm
The Summoner, on the other hand, has helped me get an early lead a few times in some games. Especially in my Charge deck. She's also baited opponents into wasting removal cards on her right before I bring out something much more valuable to me.
This may be due to who I've fought, or maybe just the style of decks I play. Generally speaking, I don't allow my opponent to get enough creatures out to make MCT's ability useful, and when they do things are usually going poorly enough that he doesn't make a significant difference.
*shrug*
Post by: Criptfeind on February 18, 2014, 01:50:28 pm
But I've only had MCT actually be really useful once when I played him
Do you mean he was killed for free all the other times? Or that he only mind controlled a powerful minion once? Because a 3/3 is still pretty good. And that's sorta the core of why he is better then the 2/2. The MCT has better max value yeah. But he also has better minimum value and better average value.
But. Who knows. A dedicated board control deck where you can say to yourself "I have lost the game of the opponent ever gets more then three minions at one time." Might devalue the MCT and bring up the summoner in value. But that's not likely in the arena and certainly not a druid deck.
Post by: Mephansteras on February 18, 2014, 02:36:02 pm
To be fair, though, I don't play Druid decks that often, so I'm less certain how he'd work for one of those. It is true that Druids have more mana gathering abilities, so the Summoner's ability is less impactful in general.
Post by: Max White on February 20, 2014, 01:26:27 am
Post by: Siquo on February 20, 2014, 07:48:27 am
Ok, so best deck ever has been invented. Behold, truly a deck worthy of the gods! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jR8FLwLMV0)This is how I build decks :)
When I say I'm bad I mean that I really don't give a damn about the whole meta and just try things out that seem fun, which often means failure or a spectacular and humiliating win.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 20, 2014, 10:54:46 am
Ok, so best deck ever has been invented. Behold, truly a deck worthy of the gods! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jR8FLwLMV0)
That deck is so good that only deathwing could possibly improve it.
Post by: baruk on February 20, 2014, 03:43:00 pm
So I drafted another hunter arena deck, here are the choices I got, my picks bolded:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: SHAD0Wdump on February 20, 2014, 04:26:57 pm
Ok, so best deck ever has been invented. Behold, truly a deck worthy of the gods! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jR8FLwLMV0)Well looks like someone made the 'alchohol abuse' deck idea I had before I did... Never thought to kick up the shenanigans using rogue though.
Pretty awesome stuff.
Admittedly though, by 'alchohol abuse' I planned to use mad bombers and crazed alchemists for more barrels and brews being tossed around.
Post by: Max White on February 20, 2014, 04:58:50 pm
That actually looks like a very solid deck! There were a few choices that I thought were a little off, until I remembered that you are a hunter and beasts are worth more. Good work, tell me how it works out!Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Well looks like someone made the 'alchohol abuse' deck idea I had before I did... Never thought to kick up the shenanigans using rogue though.You know if the concept was done by somebody who was a better player than Day[9] it might actually work. Against rush decks you try to weather the storm until turn 6, and then you vanish their entire field, leaving their land too full and they start burning cards. Throw out a solid taunt and they are going to have a bad day. Against control decks you save your draw back cards for the Coldlights and force them to burn their entire deck. The problem with what was constructed was too many elven archers and shit like that...
Pretty awesome stuff.
Edit: My god, flooding their hand, it is so simple! Lorewalker cho + sap! Best case scenario is they try to sap your few minions, giving you the sap back, letting you continue to flood!
Post by: marples on February 21, 2014, 04:47:32 pm
Post by: baruk on February 24, 2014, 12:19:59 pm
So I drafted another hunter arena deck, here are the choices I got, my picks bolded:What I ended up with (arcane shot and hunter's mark are also in there):Spoiler (click to show/hide)In theory beasts should be worth a bit more to a hunter - that might explain some of my picks.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Progress report, 5 games played so far:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: baruk on February 27, 2014, 05:57:07 am
My notes on the last four games:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: palsch on February 27, 2014, 08:19:56 am
Hearthstone Deck Counter (http://www.weaz.de/hsdc/)
A really nice simple tool. You load your decklist either from a website or manually. You then right click cards as you draw them and it shows you the remaining cards and probability of drawing each one next (not that useful really, but nice). It's particularly nice for arena decks where you are less likely to know your outs at any given point. Does require you constantly pay attention to what you draw, which is a good thing.
HearthTracker (http://blog.hearthtracking.com/) (HT) and HeathstoneTracker (http://hearthstonetracker.com/) (HST).
These are two variations on the same thing; they automatically track your games, recording your win/loss rates and various other statistics. Each has it's own advantages.
- HeathTracker (HT) lets you record the names of each of your decks and will separate stats by deck rather than by class, so if you change from, say, handlock to murlock those stats will be recorded separately. This is especially nice with HSDC as you can save decks by name in that and track their stats with HT. HST only records by class and deck slot so far.
- HST is much more polished, looking nicer, running from the system tray, having an inbuilt updater and being (in my admittedly limited tests) notably more accurate. Notably HT messed up on recording my arena stats and has had a few substantial bugs.
Right now I'm basically using one deck per class, so I've switched entirely to HST. But for testing multiple decks for the same class HT might be a better option, at least till HST gets a suitable feature.
There are a couple other trackers out there but they seem to be uploaders to public tracking sites, which I'm less keen on myself (not to mention they mostly depend on manual updates so the global stat pools tend to be made up for 9+ arena runs, unbeaten ranked decks and the like). Also at least one uses packet sniffing to track the games in progress, which seems like potential ban bait.
Post by: IronyOwl on March 19, 2014, 08:37:47 pm
Post by: sambojin on March 19, 2014, 08:55:44 pm
I'm up to the boring grindy bit of the game, so I sort of stopped playing. Still might drop that $20-30 on it just due to the ease of play/matching, mainly because I can't be arsed grinding for decks so I can muck around with playstyles. Want a chargey/buffy shammy deck or a spell power variant, but meh. Taunt-grind-out-positioning-buff is fun, but only averaging out as "goodish". Need more funky cards, but I'm too proud to hunter face-roll wins or go priest "bleh, whatever" decks for gold. Sort of over arenas, but they're still a nice break from constructed.
Post by: sambojin on March 19, 2014, 09:13:40 pm
Maybe it's a "It's just a fun cardgame, like in beta" thing. But it's not. This is the full release. Why weren't these easy and regular bugs fixed before release? They are a multi-billion dollar developer. We understand if there's the odd bug in indy releases, to the point of helping to fix them. But this is the simplest game Blizzard has released in a long time, and they left large graphical and gameplay bugs in it after an extensive closed alpha, closed beta and open beta run up. Yeah. Very professional.
Thus, I can't bring myself to put money on it yet.
Post by: RedKing on March 20, 2014, 09:01:30 am
The game is already turning into LoL insofar as there are "orthodox" ways to play. I saw him play a match last night as a Warrior vs a Priest. He kept killing cards but injuring himself in the process, so that he was at 12 health and the Priest was still at 30. Then the Priest conceded, and he was like "Yep, expected that." ???
When I questioned that, he stated that he had achieved board control and a veteran player would recognize that and concede. Ooooookay. Any game where you're undamaged and your opponent keeps whittling themselves down to less than half-health and yet *your* situation is hopeless? That's not a good game.
Post by: palsch on March 20, 2014, 09:37:07 am
When I questioned that, he stated that he had achieved board control and a veteran player would recognize that and concede. Ooooookay. Any game where you're undamaged and your opponent keeps whittling themselves down to less than half-health and yet *your* situation is hopeless? That's not a good game.It sounds like a good game to me, otherwise the whole thing would be focused around rush decks.
There are decks where, no matter how much damage you, deal if the opponent is running a good control deck and is alive by turn 8-9 you've probably lost.
Health is just another resource in the game. Spending it is often better than spending minions or extra cards, which can be better used securing a position where you can reach a win condition. Good control decks can often deal over 20 damage in a late game turn. Heck, even that basic Shaman deck (http://www.hearthhead.com/deck=541/basic-shaman) I posted before will deal absurd amounts of damage if you pull off a Windspeaker/Bloodlust combo with board control. If I'm playing that deck and have a weapon out then I'll always use the weapon and accept damage to my hero to try to keep more minions on the board, setting up a more damaging Bloodlust attack to finish the game.
In League terms, you can be up 5-0 in kills early game thanks to having an effective early game composition and repeatedly focusing an enemy squishy, but if the other team is farming better, controlling objectives and using the time you spend killing the same guy repeatedly to take multiple towers they may well still be ahead, and have a better late-game composition than you do.
It's more that there are elements of the game not summarised in the big shiny number that looks like the score.
Post by: sebcool on March 20, 2014, 11:24:45 am
Do note that some decks (mages) can do damage even without board control, through spells, so there is still a risk involved if you get below 10 health against a mage.
Also second what palsch said. Rush decks are only good if you can gain board control and not get key units shut down. If you lose momentum, or never gain it (mages, again), you are pretty much guaranteed to lose.
Post by: Werdna on March 20, 2014, 11:59:55 am
Hate stuff like that being possible. Thank god for the range and quantity of quasi-removal in the game, even with basic cards. I've hexed a few mega-buffs (or silenced them) over the time I've played. Priests are still a bit broken imho.
It's not as broken as you think. In order to make a 28/28 turtle, he's got to blow pretty much an entire handful of cards on that turtle (which on its own, is a very poor card), and he's risking losing all those cards to say, a Siphon Soul. Think of it this way; any player that runs that many 'Creature Buff' cards is running relatively fewer Creature Removal spells. His entire deck strat relies on Creatures, and Buffing them, and is going to fail very hard against decks that aggressively kill his creatures (and on average they will, because they have relatively more creatures, plus more creature removal). He probably loses many, many games with a hand full of buff cards, and no creature to buff. Honestly, I like that stuff like this is possible. It's rare, it's not necessarily a good strat in the long run, but it brings variety to games and variety is good.
When I questioned that, he stated that he had achieved board control and a veteran player would recognize that and concede. Ooooookay. Any game where you're undamaged and your opponent keeps whittling themselves down to less than half-health and yet *your* situation is hopeless? That's not a good game.
I don't agree. Your health is an extra dimension that makes a game interesting. Your position in a game is measured by several factors: your board presence, your health, and your hand. While your health only matters for the win, it's also the largest resource you can afford to 'spend'. If the priest had not conceded, with board control your friend likely would've brought the Priest from 30 to 0 in just a few short rounds. You 'spend' health at your own risk though - Warrior's strat might be very different against a Mage that might be packing Fireballs and Charge creatures that could finish him if he used too much health. Really though, Warrior's design with weapons and armor means his strat is usually going to involve smashing into things and getting hurt some in the process. Druid and Rogue are in a similar boat, as is Warlock but in another way.
DP, but I've got to wonder. Why has Blizzard let it go to full release with that "floating permanent card" bug still not fixed?
It's an annoying bug... but really, i'ts just a visual artifact that does not affect the game. It's only happened in maybe 1 in 20 games to me and never affected a game result. As far as games going to release with bugs go, this game is way ahead of most. I might be a bit influenced by MWO though, which after all this time in beta is still a hot mess.
Palsch/sebcool; agreed!
Post by: Endymion on March 20, 2014, 12:37:53 pm
As for the priest buffing thing: If he buffed a creature that high that couldn't immediately attack-- he was desperate and you had 'won' anyways. I've played a decent deal with those priest decks and know that the whole trick is figuring out a way to start your turn with a 7+ health minion so you can immediately pop the combo and win. The 2/7 turtle is a good card to try with, but the 2/7 berserker guy works better since people generally won't do any damage to him unless they can outright kill it. Oh-- and that priest deck can run a ton of removal and very few creatures because of how its buffing works. Something like 10 cards removal, 14 cards creature, 6 cards buff. (The +2 health, the double health, and the health->attack)
Anyways, I don't even play constructed anymore. It is far too gamed up with all those perfect constructed decks, detailed win odds figured out and whatnot. I'd find it much more fun to program an AI to automatically play constructed, since there is no thought or creativity left to it. I do, however, play a bunch of Arena. All those lovely unique decks, the logic behind creating them.... its so much fun. And supposedly I got good at it since I've managed 2 separate 12 win runs and I bring in enough gold playing arena to continue playing arena. I feel so sorry for the pigeon hole victims of mine. But it really gives a different feel due to the uniqueness of the decks. And it always feels good to beat someone after they've played their 4th Holy Nova.
Post by: Neonivek on March 20, 2014, 12:58:28 pm
Quote
The game is already turning into LoL insofar as there are "orthodox" ways to play
NOTHING kills a card game faster IMO then this. It is why I cannot play Yu-Gi-Oh anymore.
Post by: aristabulus on March 20, 2014, 01:11:26 pm
QuoteThe game is already turning into LoL insofar as there are "orthodox" ways to play
NOTHING kills a card game faster IMO then this. It is why I cannot play Yu-Gi-Oh anymore.
This happened with the early years of Magic, also. Nowadays, what is considered orthodox in Magic just rotates on a regular basis, and is considered a feature.
Post by: Siquo on March 20, 2014, 02:38:50 pm
Post by: Puzzlemaker on March 21, 2014, 08:00:21 am
Or, one can just play for fun.
AKA the murlock method.
HRAGALGLGGLGLRLAGL
Post by: Criptfeind on March 21, 2014, 08:21:01 am
QuoteThe game is already turning into LoL insofar as there are "orthodox" ways to play
NOTHING kills a card game faster IMO then this. It is why I cannot play Yu-Gi-Oh anymore.
Isn't a preset right way to do thing. Uh. Every competitive multiplayer game at the higher levels? Like. Literally every one? Maybe you just don't like competitive multiplayer games? Which is fare enough.
Also, you don't actually have to play at the higher levels, you can make your own deck and play your own way and however good that gets you will bring you to whatever rank you deserve. Unless you are saying that being able to do anything and ignoring what everyone else is doing should make you the number one player in the world I don't see why you would even have a issue with there being a meta. That's not to say you can't even be good playing your own way with your own deck. If you actually do pay attention to the meta you can build your own deck that is not cookie cutter and get to legendary. That's pretty much how the meta is actually formed and what the best players do.
Post by: Neonivek on March 21, 2014, 08:29:03 am
Quote
Isn't a preset right way to do thing. Uh. Every competitive multiplayer game at the higher levels? Like. Literally every one? Maybe you just don't like competitive multiplayer games?
I am not so much speaking of there being a sort of standard way to play so much as there being a specific drawn out guideline of how a deck MUST be made. Especially when that becomes standardized.
Which is what happened with Yu-Gi-Oh (Mostly because the game has horrible power creep...) and occasionally happens with Magic the Gathering.
Quote
I don't see why you would even have a issue with there being a meta
What is wrong with a metagame? Did I ever complain about there being a metagame?
---
Look Criptfeind, you are looking at what I posted and are thinking that I am against "high level play" where people understand the decks so that a lot of the same builds and strategies show up because there is still a sort of "way to play".
But no... I could care less about that.
Also I don't think Hearthstone is there, I am just saying that becoming cookie cutter is the quickest way to kill a card game for me. Since to me a lot about Card games is making a deck "You" like. When it isn't about making "your" deck, then the major appeal of even the best card games get lost... and I am willing to take a hit to deck effectiveness for it.
Post by: Criptfeind on March 21, 2014, 08:35:47 am
Post by: Neonivek on March 21, 2014, 08:38:48 am
If that's not your issue then I don't understand what your issue actually is. Because actually literally having to make a deck a certain way isn't a issue in Hearthstone. And it isn't a issue in Yogioh. As far as I'm aware that's not actually a thing that any card game in existence has.
Ohh, I have no issue with Hearthstone, I was just saying it is the fastest way to kill a card game for me and I'd dread if it went the full LoL route of total optimization lockdown.
Post by: sebcool on March 21, 2014, 09:40:48 am
Or, one can just play for fun.
AKA the murlock method.
HRAGALGLGGLGLRLAGL
I actually kinda want to build a murlock deck :P
Post by: sambojin on March 21, 2014, 05:16:45 pm
Plus, if even one bloodlust goes off they become geniunely scary. Harglbarglargle *ROAR*
Post by: IronyOwl on March 21, 2014, 06:28:13 pm
Spoiler: Hint (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Answer (click to show/hide)
I don't see how LoL suffers from that either. I mean, there's more "you can't go tank yi mid what are you doing," but the same concept applies.If that's not your issue then I don't understand what your issue actually is. Because actually literally having to make a deck a certain way isn't a issue in Hearthstone. And it isn't a issue in Yogioh. As far as I'm aware that's not actually a thing that any card game in existence has.
Ohh, I have no issue with Hearthstone, I was just saying it is the fastest way to kill a card game for me and I'd dread if it went the full LoL route of total optimization lockdown.
Post by: baruk on March 30, 2014, 10:28:19 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: palsch on March 31, 2014, 01:05:51 am
3x Ironbark + Onyxia. (http://imgur.com/a/wuDGW) I only got screenshots of two games, but IIRC I had at least one of these four in the first five turns of each game. Those two I captured were both wins (the first I played out three Ironbarks consecutively, the second Ironbark, Onyxia, Ironbark, win). Unfortunately I played horribly in some other games and ended on 6-3. Should have been 7 but I flat missed a lethal at one point; I used Starfall to clear small minions then exchanged to remove a taunt rather than just clearing the (5HP) taunt then going face, lost next turn with my enemy on 3 HP.
My other huge recent misplay; running out two acidic oozes on turn 4 against a hunter who immediately plays an Eaglehorn Bow and Explosive Trap...
Post by: sambojin on March 31, 2014, 01:26:40 am
Has anyone been using p.s.summoners a bit more now they're 3/2? I might try my hand at an accelerated druid or shaman deck next time I start playing a bit.
Still plenty of cards to get, but fast elementals and reliable totem draw might be viable.
Post by: marples on April 11, 2014, 01:00:26 pm
http://wow.joystiq.com/2014/04/11/pax-east-hearthstone-adventure-mode-ipad-worldwide-soon/ (http://wow.joystiq.com/2014/04/11/pax-east-hearthstone-adventure-mode-ipad-worldwide-soon/)
There's more on the battlenet site but it wont link for some reason (read as 'i suck at links').
Post by: Thexor on April 12, 2014, 12:29:54 am
I've had two back-to-back games where I was entirely toast and the other guy conceded. First time, I was at 7 health, 3 damage short of lethal (as a Priest, so no easy way to deal 3), and he had a Cairne in play and a Ysera in hand. Concedes as soon as his turn begins.
Second was a Miracle Rogue. Gets his 12/4 Gadgetzan concealed, then surrenders. Again, I was 3 short of lethal, and was at 15 health. He conceded before ending his turn.
I mean, I'm not complaining about free wins... I just feel kinda bad being given victories for games I knew I'd lost, especially with my dreadful Priest deck. :(
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Neonivek on April 12, 2014, 12:40:05 am
Like magic the gathering there are still useless Legendries and incredibly useful commons.
Post by: RedKing on April 12, 2014, 03:37:01 pm
Wow, so that's fair. Full-health Priest vs 13 health Paladin with a Stormwind Champion on the field. Who do you think wins?I can one-up that. As a Priest, I killed a Warrior with a Lightwell. Only attack I made the whole game.Spoiler: Hint (click to show/hide)Spoiler: Answer (click to show/hide)
Specifically, I had used Divine Spirit early to make it a 0/10 Lightwell. Then a pair of Temple Enforcers to make it a 0/16 Lightwell. Then in one turn, Divine Spirit again (0/32) and then Inner Fire (32/32). He was still at full health and had two armor. It didn't matter.
I can only assume that Inner Fire turned it into some kind of planetary ion cannon. :P
Post by: penguinofhonor on April 15, 2014, 01:55:43 pm
Post by: Neonivek on April 15, 2014, 04:17:58 pm
I'm so bad at beating Warlocks.
That is because they are fast and are about taking you out quickly!
Post by: sambojin on April 15, 2014, 05:09:07 pm
Post by: AlleeCat on May 05, 2014, 11:51:48 am
Post by: Sordid on May 17, 2014, 05:18:18 pm
Can we talk about how the iOS client is a terrible unoptimized pile of crap? I feel like it should never have been released in this state.
That goes for the PC version as well. Supposedly it's out of beta but it's still buggy as hell.
Post by: IronyOwl on May 17, 2014, 08:42:21 pm
She eventually won, but only had something like 3-5 life left. And at least one taunt critter, though, so it was a bit closer than it looked.
Post by: Dutchling on June 03, 2014, 12:23:44 pm
I'm Dutchling#2710 is anyone is looking for a fight...
Post by: Rex_Nex on June 25, 2014, 01:04:17 am
Its like hell. I just want to see if I can pull the lotto and get a legendary for once, but it never actually happens. I dont even think I'm bad at this game, I've been playing for quite a long time... apparently I'm trash, though.
I just need to give it up and uninstall it for good this time, the game isn't very fun and the addiction is hardly worth the frustration.
edit: apparently casual has ELO. That's pretty shitty, I'm assuming my one good deck boosted my ELO super high and now I'm not allowed to play anything else without going through hell and losing/lowering my ELO for 50 games. Cool, cool, dat game design etc.
Post by: WealthyRadish on June 25, 2014, 02:32:25 am
Post by: IronyOwl on June 25, 2014, 03:41:04 am
edit: apparently casual has ELO. That's pretty shitty, I'm assuming my one good deck boosted my ELO super high and now I'm not allowed to play anything else without going through hell and losing/lowering my ELO for 50 games. Cool, cool, dat game design etc.This really is unfortunate. Most of my decks are roughly equally garbage, so it doesn't matter too much in my case, but I wonder what's going to happen as I start improving some decks and not really others.
Of course, it also helps that I'm pretty amicable to losing. I figure I'm going to have to lose half my games anyway, so attempts at completing the current quest aside, I don't really mind sinking like a stone. Just makes it easier to buoy back up later!
Post by: Something Evil on June 25, 2014, 05:27:52 am
edit: apparently casual has ELO. That's pretty shitty, I'm assuming my one good deck boosted my ELO super high and now I'm not allowed to play anything else without going through hell and losing/lowering my ELO for 50 games. Cool, cool, dat game design etc.
It... kinda makes sense, actually.
There are, as you pointed out, people running Legendary-viable decks in Unranked to pubstomp. The ELO/MMR system should, in theory, help push them into fighting equally well-optimized decks and par stuff like Murloc Priest with equally derp setups.
Admittedly, it does screw you over badly if you have just one optimized deck that you constantly use, which pushes up your MMR, and then you try to fiddle with your shoddier decks and see if your attempts at optimization panned out just to see yourself get wrecked by people who know what they're doing and have the tools to do it, but that's an issue that should sort itself out in time as you eventually get the appropriate class cards you need.
You can't really single out HS for having this issue as it's inherent to CCGs.
Post by: Dutchling on June 25, 2014, 05:56:35 am
There are a lot of steamers who have recorded their progress from rank 25 to legend on a fresh account without using real money though.
Post by: IronyOwl on June 25, 2014, 06:36:30 am
but that's an issue that should sort itself out in time as you eventually get the appropriate class cards you need.Eventually yeah, assuming your decks all improve at the same rate/the worse ones catch up quicker. It'd still be nice if there was some way to play at different levels with different decks, though. I don't see what it being a common problem has to do with anything.
You can't really single out HS for having this issue as it's inherent to CCGs.
Well, obviously having more cards enables you to make better decks.Getting floored by Legendaries is one of the few things that pisses me off about this game, though. With most other stuff it's like okay, they have a "good" card or a good combo or they got lucky or whatever. With Legendaries... they just don't seem on the same level as most other cards, so it looks a lot more like I just got straight overpowered by better stuff in a game that's not supposed to be about better stuff, or at least not to that degree.
There are a lot of steamers who have recorded their progress from rank 25 to legend on a fresh account without using real money though.
Post by: Something Evil on June 25, 2014, 06:58:59 am
And there are a lot of fairly dreadful legendaries. How many times have you seen ETC? Or Velen? Or Greenskin? Murkeye doesn't even show up in all murloc decks. *cough*Mekkatorqueisterribleandyoushouldneveruseit*cough*
There are, admittedly, also some extremely powerful ones, but then again, they're in the meta and there are ways to play around them especially since most of those are 8+ mana. And most removal is Basic, especially hard kill cards. Shaman iirc has the highest number of non-basic removal in its class cards, but at the other extreme is Mage, with everything bar Pyroblast being a Basic.
It is, admittedly, infuriating to not have solutions in hand for big cards in general, not just legendaries, and have them turn the game entirely around, but, again, RNG is in the nature of CCGs.
I will admit that the MMR should be based on the deck, but then you have another problem: make highly optimized deck; get high mmr with that deck to the point you can't pubstomp. Delete deck to clear its associated MMR; remake deck in the exact same way.
Repeat.
Edit: besides, this is Unranked we're talking about. Unranked has no bearing on anything, ever.
Post by: Rex_Nex on June 25, 2014, 10:37:31 am
This is balanced out by making them rare, but that hardly matters when you're on the receiving end of one of these "its like your card but better!".
Post by: Dutchling on June 25, 2014, 10:45:41 am
Which brings us to the real problem, there are no good late-game (this is ignoring 7-drops but you said 8-drop so I'm sticking with that) cards without having epic/legendaries.
Which honestly isn't that bad as most games are decided in the early/mid-game anyway.
Post by: Ultimuh on June 25, 2014, 01:26:09 pm
Post by: Dutchling on June 25, 2014, 01:29:42 pm
Post by: Werdna on June 26, 2014, 04:01:35 pm
Little bit of a revive, kinda hating myself for reinstalling hearthstone. Everyone is so goddamn good, legendaries and perfect tourney-quality decks all over the place. What happened to casual being filled with newbies and bad decks? To get 5 wins in my worst classes, it can take me upwards of 4 hours. And then I'll make my 100g and get my 4 commons/1 rare that I have to dust every day for a week.
Somewhere around the time when the season ended and the update that coincided with it, the casual bracket suddenly got flooded with much higher quality opponents. I don't know if it was because the ranked players were now flooding the casual games, or maybe they were finally applying my official behind-the-scenes ranking to the match-making (I was winning roughly 90% of my casual games, it was doing a pretty poor job matching me to a worthwhile player). Or maybe Casual match-making is broken. All I know is that I went from facing scrub decks played by newbies, to net decks packed with rares and legendaries played by strong opponents. I would've liked somewhere in between - it is so brutal now to try to get wins on my bad classes that I think I'd prefer to play Arena instead, but it's terrible for doing quests.
Post by: Dutchling on June 26, 2014, 04:03:35 pm
Post by: Werdna on June 26, 2014, 04:26:23 pm
Post by: Dutchling on June 26, 2014, 04:58:35 pm
I don't play casual mode so I'm not sure how the ranking and matching works there. For me ranking is more a system to find equal opponents and otherwise not something to care about.
Post by: Werdna on June 26, 2014, 05:46:04 pm
Post by: Dutchling on June 26, 2014, 05:50:31 pm
edit: except for the very first few ranks, where you can only gain stars (which are like XP for ranks).
Post by: penguinofhonor on June 27, 2014, 08:43:58 am
I played for a long time casually, my rank ratcheted up over time, then I started playing it off and on, but my rank never regressed. The rank I got to was just too competitive for my tastes (and loaded with douchebags), and frustrating to play at when I was rusty. I figure Ranked Hearthstone would be similar (minus the douchebags), so I never tried it.
Your elo in League can always drop. If you kept losing games, you were definitely steadily losing elo and playing against lower elo people. Your league can't drop, but your league is not used for matchmaking.
In Hearthstone, you play from rank 25 to rank 20 without the ability to lose ranks, but once you're past 20 you can always drop back down to 20. Additionally, every month they almost completely reset the ranked ladder, which will drop your rank significantly until you play to get it back up.
Post by: Neonivek on June 27, 2014, 08:56:22 am
It has so many benefits. Besides it isn't like the homogeny hasn't affected the ranked mode.
Post by: Rex_Nex on June 29, 2014, 04:22:58 pm
Goddamn do I hate card games.
Post by: Dutchling on June 30, 2014, 01:06:37 am
Most notably combining a hardy and cheap unit with buffs, and combining cheap units in general with Divine Favour.
Fairly common deck to combat decks that keep a lot of cards in hand.
edit: I feel your rage though. There's nothing worse than facing a Mage with Mana Wyrm, Coin, Mirror Image.
Post by: Sordid on June 30, 2014, 01:58:21 am
edit: I feel your rage though. There's nothing worse than facing a Mage with Mana Wyrm, Coin, Mirror Image.
I've had people concede the moment they saw me pull that particular combo out.
Post by: Dutchling on June 30, 2014, 01:59:36 am
Post by: Rex_Nex on June 30, 2014, 03:07:00 am
That's not just RNG though. That's good deckbuilding with a lucky opening hand.
Most notably combining a hardy and cheap unit with buffs, and combining cheap units in general with Divine Favour.
Fairly common deck to combat decks that keep a lot of cards in hand.
edit: I feel your rage though. There's nothing worse than facing a Mage with Mana Wyrm, Coin, Mirror Image.
That's... that's RNG. Anyone can make a deck like that, praising RNGesus hard enough to get all the cards right is what decides the game.
Post by: Dutchling on June 30, 2014, 03:07:46 am
My point is that you don't need to pray very hard if you have a good deck, meaning your deck building decided the game and not the RNG.That's not just RNG though. That's good deckbuilding with a lucky opening hand.
Most notably combining a hardy and cheap unit with buffs, and combining cheap units in general with Divine Favour.
Fairly common deck to combat decks that keep a lot of cards in hand.
edit: I feel your rage though. There's nothing worse than facing a Mage with Mana Wyrm, Coin, Mirror Image.
That's... that's RNG. Anyone can make a deck like that, praising RNGesus hard enough to get all the cards right is what decides the game.
Post by: Rex_Nex on June 30, 2014, 03:16:10 am
Also, having your first 7 cards be perfect is great RNG for any deck, especially if you're going first. Im not sure how deckbuilding has anything to do with that.
Post by: Dutchling on June 30, 2014, 03:21:29 am
You must hate playing Miracle Rogue :p
Post by: Rex_Nex on June 30, 2014, 03:25:01 am
Post by: Dutchling on June 30, 2014, 04:05:22 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
edit:
Pretty epic game...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: sambojin on July 26, 2014, 07:55:11 pm
A good card list can be found here:
http://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Curse_of_Naxxramas#section_5
I can see it having some pretty serious implications on the meta. Especially for my favourite class, the Shaman. Haunted Creepers provide a good value minion, more buffable tokens and a bit more sustain. Nerubian Eggs are pretty easy to weaponize with Flametongues/Rockbiters/Bloodlust. Maexxna looks good for taunt walls, Windfury and even Ancestral Healing for another "hardish removal" option. Echoing Slime is another creative accounting option with Flametongues or a cheap Bloodlust booster for the next turn.
It's a pity the Shaman-only card is a bit weak, but it's not silenceable and there might be a re-animator deck option in the having. I'd probably rate Bloodlust higher with some Nax cards in the deck, and some of the legendaries could change the relative value of some other niche Shaman cards as well.
Anyway, what are people's thoughts on it?
ps: We could probably change the thread title. It's out with an expansion now, and I think they've fixed some of the bugs.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 26, 2014, 09:06:01 pm
Also I love abusing gargoyles. I want a gargoyle buff deck.
Post by: sambojin on July 26, 2014, 09:27:48 pm
I'm more interested in the cards and new synergies than the game-modes. It just looks like different side-grind to me. But the Nax set itself looks pretty solid to mess with the meta and give more options for decks. Will the decks be successful? Who knows. But more options and cards are good.
Any cards that you think might be broken combo-wise aside from gargoyles? They might be value in some decks (including Shaman), but I'm not sure they're busted, just potentially good with buffs. Like anything really. Haunted Creepers and Nerubian Eggs actually look more solid all-round. Especially in Shaman decks.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 26, 2014, 10:08:56 pm
No particular thoughts otherwise, beyond the obvious Deathrattle focus. There's some really interesting stuff in there, but none of it strikes me as particularly abusable.
Post by: sambojin on July 26, 2014, 10:48:45 pm
Warsong Commander looks sweet too for Warriors. I wouldn't even guess how to rate cards for constructed now, they'd all need side comments like "Unless you've got x and cycling or y and are focusing on z". Even less-so for arena.
Basically EVERYONE got a rush or sustain or buff or taunt token deck option. Yipee!
A bloody good addition to the game, implemented in the way Blizzard does stuff. Pointless, long-winded, not-very-fun side-grind for no apparent reason.
Post by: Dutchling on July 27, 2014, 06:57:50 am
Post by: sambojin on August 08, 2014, 10:13:34 pm
Shaman Taunty Token Zoo? Maybe....
I've been watching a fair bit of Trump's f2p rogue run and I can't help thinking "If he was a shaman with some totems, taunt, card-draw and removal, that might just work." Actually, it wouldn't work anything like his current deck, it'd just be better and more fun to watch in every way.
I hope he does a "Trump Kicks Arse After Naxxramus" run, with his real collection, as a Shaman, eventually. In any case, I'm going to try to, but it won't be televised.
Post by: sambojin on August 10, 2014, 05:52:38 am
2x Earth Shock
2x Lightning Bolt
2x Rockbiter Weapon
1x Bloodmage Thalnos
2x Flametongue Totem
2x Haunted Creeper
2x Nerubian Egg
2x Feral Spirits
2x Hex
2x Harvest Golem/Injured Blademaster
2x Lightning Storm
2x Defender of Argus
1x Chillwind Yeti
1x Leeroy Jenkins
2x Azure Drake
1x Earth Elemental
2x Fire Elemental
Golem vs Blademaster.....
Could easily sub out the blademasters for anything else good in the 3-4 drop range, although they do have some synergy with healing totems (a 4/4 for 3, with no downside at all if the totem is there). Nice defender of argus target too, if it survives. I like them better than unbound elementals due to not really needing much effort to work, but they can trade down instead of up if you're not careful. They also just feel more agressive than golems, although golems rarely whiff completely. UEs, or even a taunt grizzly can do the job, amongst a million other things (oozes/f.dragons for instance). Golems are the reliable option, but the blademasters can work pretty well if you've got board control.
Leeroy may be a strictly worse fireball, but that's just what this deck needs. More teeth, and quick. He might even get 2 swings off if you're really lucky. It's never a terrible trade anyway, and can be a nice suprise in an otherwise value-based deck. Welp clearage isn't usually a problem, and you can boost Leeroy pretty easily into a win condition sometimes.
The yeti is always good. Could sub a shieldmasta instead if a lack of taunt is bothering you, but there's plenty of that in the deck anyway. Shieldmastas beside flametongues are golden, but so are yetis. Your choice.
The earth elemental is just a reverse Leeroy. More teeth, quickly, but it changes you down a gear rather than up. Still plenty handy in late-game, or draws removal early on (but can stall you).
The deck could use more card draw, but I have no idea what I'd swap out for it.
Anyway, that's it. More or less a standard value deck with all the normal shaman gubbins. Was pretty much based off this deck below, but with all the bad bits taken out (imo). Slightly quicker, hits harder, and should win a bit more. Here's the original deck: http://www.youtube.com/#/watch?v=nCgTY-8R1_U
Post by: sambojin on August 16, 2014, 10:34:45 pm
Feels a little too slow in a way. A grab-bag of board control, taunt and aggression, but without enough focus. Or card draw.
It's mid-rangey, kind-of, but needs a few more solid lower drops to be reliably quick, or some more mid/late game to be good for other things. Too many legendaries (looking at dropping Thalnos for a kobold, yep, heresy) just for early control of opposing 2 drops. Maybe one Rockbiter for a different enabler for the eggs/creepers. H.golem is "better" than blademasters, but I still want to work out how to keep them in the deck. They're suprisingly prone to injury, either card. Yeti may get subbed out for a healer, because it does come in handy. Really want a mana-tide totem to sit in behind the occasional taunt wall you end up with as well.
Anyway, a pretty variable deck that with a few changes can go from early to mid range control, to pretty smack-to-the-face, quite quickly. Heaps of answers, maybe not enough questions. The gear shifting of the deck is great, but it's not nearly a final draft. Still, sub out Thalnos for a kobold, h.golems for any 2-4 drop you like, a rockbiter for something quirky (windfury?) and the earth elemental for something without overcharge (non-rare) and tell me what you think.
It's not quite quick enough or stable enough to be considered "good", but it "works" as above. Even with blademasters.
Just a mid-range control deck, occasionally with surprising burst damage.
Post by: IronyOwl on August 16, 2014, 10:39:38 pm
Post by: sambojin on August 16, 2014, 10:47:07 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on August 16, 2014, 11:03:14 pm
1x Amani Berserker
1x Crazed Alchemist
2x Dire Wolf Alpha
2x Flametongue Totem
2x Haunted Creeper
2x Feral Spirit
2x Hex
2x Imp Master
2x Ironfur Grizzly
1x Mana Tide Totem
2x Raid Leader
2x Dragonling Mechanic
2x Bloodlust
2x Frostwolf Warlord
2x Fire Elemental
2x Stormwind Champion
1x Sea Giant
Wow, this is even more bargain than I remember. One of these days I should actually craft something...
Anyway, does exactly what it looks like, summons a bunch of minions and then occasionally buffs them.
Post by: sambojin on August 17, 2014, 12:45:11 am
Raid Leaders "should" fit into any deck after Naxxramus, but it's nice when cards have a use on their own. I probably under-rate them, even with Nax 2 drops, but they're probably very good on a taunty-token deck like I'm going for. But buff-zoo could be stronger than mid-control for Shaman with them.
I'll give your one a burl though, looks fairly solid. Just not how I play Shaman.
Actually one of the things I like about the class. You can vary it massively on play-style, but everything you spend dust on is useful.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on February 17, 2015, 09:12:05 pm
I also tried my hand at deck making and made a deck after my second human match. Mostly low cost units, plenty of mages, spells and taunt units. I'd like to think there's some poorly optimized synergy there. At least it worked for that one game. Turns out basic units can really lay down the hurt when you have half a dozen of them + a few raid leaders. Also hellfire is pretty fun way to torch the board, but then I've always enjoyed the nuclear option in games :P
Post by: IronyOwl on February 17, 2015, 10:02:52 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on February 17, 2015, 10:06:41 pm
Handlock is always expensive. I finally bit the bullet and spent the couple thousand dust I had on crafting all the giants I was missing and I've been happily riding it around legend since.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 17, 2015, 10:35:03 pm
Bit sad that the arena gives only GVG packs, I played this game when it first came out, and I never played any constructed, just arena, but now that doesn't really give me a shot at the cards I want.
Post by: itisnotlogical on February 17, 2015, 10:40:23 pm
I got back into hearthstone a few weeks ago, and have been playing it almost every day since then (although not a lot, I'd say that, including quests, I average about 50-60 gold a day). Thus far I've managed to get enough gold to unlock all the nax wings except the last (which I don't really plan on doing unless I wanta make druid or something).
Bit sad that the arena gives only GVG packs, I played this game when it first came out, and I never played any constructed, just arena, but now that doesn't really give me a shot at the cards I want.
You can get Naxxramas with gold? It only gives me the option to pay with money (Android version here).
Post by: Dutchling on February 17, 2015, 10:42:32 pm
And Criptfiend, you can just disenchant the cards from the packs and get the ones you want from the base game. It's not like opening packs gives you the cards you need unless you open a ton anyway :P
Post by: frostshotgg on February 17, 2015, 11:30:38 pm
Post by: Dutchling on February 17, 2015, 11:55:49 pm
It's only Loatheb that I really wanted anyway for my Handlock deck.
Post by: frostshotgg on February 18, 2015, 12:02:01 am
Post by: EnigmaticHat on February 18, 2015, 01:04:00 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on February 18, 2015, 01:23:36 am
I'm unapologetically awful at the game, but stomping on noobs in Casual mode with the priest's Divine Spirit + Inner Fire bullshit is fantastic.
Post by: Delta Foxtrot on February 19, 2015, 08:40:37 am
Once I get basics of play in my head I'll probably waste my gold on the arena, seems like it'd be the more fun way to earn some cards.
Post by: pondicherry on February 19, 2015, 08:49:54 am
I always get to at least 20 ranked, just to win the card back every month . . .
In fact im playing only 2 games: DF and this.
Post by: penguinofhonor on April 08, 2015, 07:52:05 pm
Post by: Neonivek on April 08, 2015, 07:54:46 pm
So I've been spending today trying to level up Shaman to the point where I have all the basic cards. Now it might very well be because I play on casual, but a lot of people don't seem to expect to be isntagibbed while on 20+ health. I think I topped at 24 with my best run.
Once I get basics of play in my head I'll probably waste my gold on the arena, seems like it'd be the more fun way to earn some cards.
The Shaman is kind of weird to me.
In that The Shaman's concept flat out doesn't work (he is meant to be a character able to do... everything).
But I cobbled together a halfway decent Shaman deck... mostly by ignoring the entire point of being a Shaman and just constructing a good deck.
Post by: pondicherry on April 08, 2015, 08:36:54 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on April 08, 2015, 09:06:50 pm
Hungry dragon, Dragon Consort, and Blackwing Corrupter all seem great. I'm not totally sold on volcanic drake, drakonid crusher, or blackwing technician, but I suppose they'll be needed for the deck to work, most likely (well, honestly maybe not the technician, a 3/5 for 3 is okay, but unless it turns out to be super reliable it's still seems second fiddle to muster for battle.)
I sorta feel like dragonkin sorcerer won't have a place in the dragodin, simply because their buff spells are so awful, and won't be worth it just for that card. It seem more of a priest card.
Speaking of priest, actual solid non combo minions seem like something that priests could really use, which some of the dragon are. And dragonkin sorcerer seems great in their deck. So mayyybe the priest dragon will be a thing... Although honestly I feel like the twilight whelp is complete trash, way worse then zombie chow, although it might still be run if priest just needs dragons in hand.
Edit: Also at some point someones going to do Chromaggus into free Solemn Vigil into two more free Solemn Vigils and draw 10 cards and probably play a few volcanic drakes and GG. But I'm worried if it will be too slow in general.
Post by: pondicherry on April 09, 2015, 10:56:12 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on April 09, 2015, 11:31:05 pm
The new single player adventure is out! It's Blackrock Depths.Second wing is out now, too! I'm struggling with the final boss, but that's because I'm terrible.
Well, only the first wing is out. But it's fun! They made some pretty cool bosses.
Post by: Cthulhu on May 25, 2015, 09:11:19 pm
After a quest to rediscover my old facelock zoo deck I've ended up settling on a face hunter deck as it seems more consistent nowadays, with warlock decks tending more towards demon and handlock decks that are too expensive for me to build this early on. I won like 90% of the games I played with the original but it seems like these days midrange control decks are more consistently successful than aggro. I still like aggro more though. They also tend to be cheaper, I'm already well on the way to finishing my first real deck.
Anybody still play?
Post by: itisnotlogical on May 25, 2015, 09:23:51 pm
Post by: Skyrunner on May 25, 2015, 10:13:34 pm
Anybody still play?Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
I play a cheap mage deck (mech Mage!) and I hate face hunter and Tempo/Aggro mages, because they're faster paced than my own deck and thus beat me easily.
Post by: Cthulhu on May 26, 2015, 01:32:39 am
Post by: pondicherry on May 26, 2015, 01:35:37 am
My mechrogue adventures go on
Post by: IronyOwl on May 26, 2015, 04:02:53 am
At the moment this apparently puts me in the top 30% of ranked players this season.
Post by: Skyrunner on May 26, 2015, 04:04:52 am
Post by: Cheeetar on May 26, 2015, 04:14:24 am
Post by: Skyrunner on May 26, 2015, 04:29:42 am
edit: I'm on right now but it seems you are not...
Post by: Cthulhu on May 26, 2015, 06:56:54 am
Post by: Cheeetar on May 26, 2015, 07:05:43 am
Sure, I'm Skyrunner#1440 on NA.
edit: I'm on right now but it seems you are not...
Yep, watchin. Sorry for the late response, got sidetracked by something.
Post by: Skyrunner on May 26, 2015, 07:39:42 am
In the second game the guy pulled a Tirion AND a Malygos from portals. That means five damage after tirion dies plus 11 damage for a 6 mana mal+4 mana fireball... Blizzard should consider raising Portal to 4 manas :v
Post by: Dutchling on May 26, 2015, 08:06:33 am
I see priests are still bullshit. Every time I'm about to hit my win streak for rank climbing some dude fucking steals all the cards out of my deck and then mind controls my dudes.stop putting good cards in your deck
Post by: Criptfeind on May 26, 2015, 08:26:45 am
Blackrock was meh to me. I'm not really that happy about how the dragons actually panned out. :/. I like my midranged paladin more then my dragon paladin. Tis sad
I have discovered face hunter, after a few arena runs I had enough dust to make the deck, so I just went on a whim and did so. It's sorta fun for a "Not pay attention as I play" deck. Although I still like paladin more.
I'm Criptfeind#1207 in NA if anyone wants to add me.
Post by: Cthulhu on May 26, 2015, 08:52:02 am
BRD on the other hand I might get for gold when I have extra. Only Thaurissan really stands out and he's in the very first section. The rest I don't really care about, Nefarian especially seems pretty underwhelming. Class cards are restricted for a reason, more likely than not you're gonna get shit that doesn't help your strategy.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 11:26:37 am
I see priests are still bullshit. Every time I'm about to hit my win streak for rank climbing some dude fucking steals all the cards out of my deck and then mind controls my dudes.stop putting good cards in your deck
Or just have better synergy between your cards.
Post by: Criptfeind on May 26, 2015, 11:49:56 am
I see priests are still bullshit. Every time I'm about to hit my win streak for rank climbing some dude fucking steals all the cards out of my deck and then mind controls my dudes.stop putting good cards in your deck
Or just have better synergy between your cards.
That only makes it worse when the priest copies your synergistic cards!
Post by: TherosPherae on May 26, 2015, 12:51:50 pm
BRD on the other hand I might get for gold when I have extra. Only Thaurissan really stands out and he's in the very first section. The rest I don't really care about, Nefarian especially seems pretty underwhelming. Class cards are restricted for a reason, more likely than not you're gonna get shit that doesn't help your strategy.Quick Shot's in the first section too. It's pretty ridiculous for Face Hunter - if you have a hand where you don't really need to hang on to anything for synergy's sake (like Kill Command), you can just dump it all and Quick Shot the face for 3 damage and a draw.
Post by: cerapa on May 26, 2015, 01:00:32 pm
I also play this thing:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I once tried to remove a Young Dragonhawk. I had just had a winstreak, and in my folly I stopped believing in the heart of the cards. I did not draw the combo for the next 3 games until I put it back.
When I first named the deck, I accidentally pressed a bit to the left of the shift key. And thus it remains to this day. A testament to my keyboard usage skills.
The Baron Rivendare is simple. It is there for the Deathlord synergy.
The rules of this deck are simple:
There is no mulligan. You play the hand the RNG has chosen for you. You must believe, and the path will reveal itself to you, even if things seem bleak at the start.
As an offering to the RNG, when the enemy has an empty board(and sometimes even when it isn't empty) you must ping your own face with the Elven Archers, and heal the enemy with your Voodoo Doctors. Whether this offering is sufficient, will only be decided by the RNG.
On a loss, you have only yourself to blame for not pleasing the RNG. Try sacrificing a few goats next time.
The RNG does not reward the prideful. Never get lost in the glory of a 32/32 deathlord, but remember that you are this position purely because a greater force has chosen it for you.
Have fun and send plenty of friend requests. The deck is silly enough that people actually accept them.
Highlights include numerous occasions where the enemy was left at 1 hp because I healed them earlier or pinged my own face, Dragonhawks buffed with topdecked Power Word: Shield->Power Word: Shield>Inner Fire. A baron rivendare left on the board and buffed from 1 attack to far, far more.
It also has a tendency to make one very superstitious. Do not ever underestimate the consequences of not respecting the rules. Even a single mulligan can end with a hand of 1 drops and no combo in sight. Follow the rules and the Wisps shall dodge your hand and instead fill the thoughtsteals of opposing priests.
Post by: Cthulhu on May 26, 2015, 01:10:02 pm
Meanwhile I'm not getting any of the cards I need and thanks to a couple suboptimal plays early on I don't really have anything in my hand to move forward in the game. Since he never faces, I'm slowly, slowly chipping away at his health, maybe one or two damage a turn. Finally he pops the mind control (I'm assuming his entire strategy was to stall for mind control, considering he really had nothing else in his deck to force a win. He had all kinds of bullshit though, the 1/4 taunt gnome, the gnome that lowers damage by two, about a billion taunts, who even knows)
So now he's building up a gargantuan mind controlled Misha, finally trying to close the game out, but by that point he's at 3 hp and on my last real chance to make something happen I topdeck my arcane shot.
I BMed the everloving shit out of that dude. I spammed Greetings until the fuse was halfway burnt, then finished him off. Game lasted like 20 minutes
Post by: penguinofhonor on May 26, 2015, 01:12:12 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on May 26, 2015, 01:13:07 pm
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 03:14:20 pm
But luckily for me I just made a deck based around the totems.
Post by: frostshotgg on May 26, 2015, 03:21:06 pm
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 03:22:04 pm
Please tell me you aren't running totemic might. That is one of the 5 worst cards in the game, and a very close contended for single worst card.
Just the card that adds +2 to the cards directly beside it.
Post by: penguinofhonor on May 26, 2015, 03:43:58 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on May 26, 2015, 03:57:13 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on May 26, 2015, 06:03:50 pm
Please tell me you aren't running totemic might. That is one of the 5 worst cards in the game, and a very close contended for single worst card.Now I'm curious. What are these worst cards in the game?
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 26, 2015, 06:13:31 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on May 26, 2015, 06:29:38 pm
Post by: sambojin on May 26, 2015, 06:31:16 pm
@Ironyowl. Totemic Might. It just is. It would be awesome as a 0/4 weapon for 1-2 mana that used charges to give the totems +2 health (ie: Give any totem summoned Battlecry: +2 health. Lose one charge from weapon each time this occurs.) or something similar. But right now, you need plenty of totems on board for it to have any use. You usually only have 2 totems max on board. Even with 3, it's a bad card. Those totems still do very little.
Shaman can control, face, midrange etc, or even combo a bit. I'll make up a bad example deck of my current concept (my last one wasn't horrible, but the meta has changed, and there's some amazing cards in other decks now).
I'll chuck together an early/mid zoo/control in a sec.
Laugh heartily, it's not that good (and requires a fair bit of dust and questing).
Post by: frostshotgg on May 26, 2015, 06:46:36 pm
NINJEDIT: Well, yes. The point would be to play it super lategame as a "I'm harder to kill now" button, which Shamans really need.
@Sambojin: That card would still be trash. Totems just aren't valuable enough to spend a card on. 0/1 mana cards have to have a disproportionately powerful effect to see reasonable play on anything except rush decks. A rush deck can't afford to expend mana on totems, never mind a card to buff the totems.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 06:47:39 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on May 26, 2015, 06:53:31 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
@Neonivek: Please, pick a card a defend it. 10 points to Ravenclaw if you can.
Post by: Criptfeind on May 26, 2015, 06:59:25 pm
And no. Shamans really don't need a "I'm harder to kill button" For the late game. Not unless the whole class is radically changed. Shaman isn't a late game class and wasting a turn on a card that's only going to slow the game down and cost nothing for your opponent to remove isn't going help a class that is going to lose if it gets to that point anyway.
Edit: Wait, dust devil? That seems like a odd choice for a anti druid card. And a odd choice in general.
Post by: Neonivek on May 26, 2015, 07:02:39 pm
That is it.
While Merlock Scout is only good in Shaman decks with that one Totem that gives things +2
Post by: Dutchling on May 26, 2015, 07:03:51 pm
The only cards I can find that are even remotely close to as bad are (...) Silence (...)Silence was totally playable for a while, and might still be, simply because most Priest lists run 2 Pyromancers. Cheap spells are just very good combined with that card, and Silence IS a very powerful effect, even if you get it without a 2/1 or 4/3 creature.
And with "for a while" I mean up until I stopped watching HS streams. For all I know it's still run in Priest lists.
I would never call it a bad spell.
Post by: frostshotgg on May 26, 2015, 07:17:19 pm
Dust devil is in that for the same reason Magma Rager is. The deck is made to make druids sad and the only "good" answer they have to 1 health minions with relatively high attack is swipe. When you stack enough stuff that druid wants to hit with face, they run out of health.
Ninjedit: Voodoo doctor is a 1 mana 2/1 with a trash effect. If you want something else that heals in the healing class for shits and giggles, Priest has more than enough options that while not good, aren't that low quality.
Priest Silence is bad because it's A, on a class that really doesn't care about silencing stuff, and B it's a 0 mana card. The caveat of 0 mana spells is that they need to be worth a card. If you had a hero power that read the same text as a given 0 mana spell, that should be a rough gauge of how usable a 0 mana spell is. Silencing a minion alone isn't worth it because, at least as priest, there's very few things that you would want to silence that you don't have other, more flexible outs to. Silence would be really solid if it cost 1 and drew a card, but because it's basically "Discard a card" it's not worth running.
Post by: sambojin on May 26, 2015, 07:19:15 pm
Shifts up and down gears like a rally driver on crack, but if it gets rolling, it can roll well and at a good speed.
A bit of damage, control, taunt, and then big bodies.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Needs more card draw. Badly. Needs something better than the Sunfury Protector and one of the Earth Elementals as well. I just don't know what yet, if anything. Manatide totem would be great, but it's also a "dead card" in an early control-then-roll style deck. Azure Drakes are nice, but not for 5 mana. Everything else is probably too small of a body/option to think of using. Maybe a card drawer, but I'd just about throw a priestess in there instead. Pipping a 2 health minion up to three "can be" quite good, and more early options is always handy.
Don't know. But it needs more card draw, because it can stall, even if you just totem/draw for a few turns across the game.
Post by: Cthulhu on May 26, 2015, 08:05:37 pm
My very ancient to-the-face zoolock was something along the lines of...
Spoiler: I don't remember everything (click to show/hide)
Pure face, running on the philosophy that if you have control of the board the impetus is on the opponent to make trades and the board leader should only be making trades when they prevent an extremely valuable trade from the enemy.
It doesn't work super well in the high tiers though since it violates some maxims. Since it's pure yolo you more often than not give the opponent opportunities to come back; you should be conservative when winning and yolo when losing. Also since you're never trading you allow your opponent to always make the best trades he can which, if things slow down, will incrementally cost you the game.
Post by: sambojin on May 26, 2015, 08:15:13 pm
Each one is just a tool depending on matchup. Every card in the deck is really. It's not as necessarily rushy as pure zoo, it has some board control options as well. Not many, but it's not entirely mono tactics or insta-lose. But it'd better be doing something well early on, because there's very little combo-wombo in the deck (although there is some dumb stuff. Blowing two rockbiters on a zapomatic does do the face thing from suprising angles, especially when backed with some beef for following turns).
So not total zoo, but not exactly as reliable as total zoo either. Needs more card draw for that.
Quite nice against token decks etc, fails against lots of things though. Can win, might not. Can even snatch defeat from the jaws of victory at times, depending on which gear you're in on defense/control/rush at which time.
comment: "The Meta". Funnily enough, people tend to play around things like lightning storm, 2 hexes, even with some vague consideration towards unbound elementals/fire elementals and the "standard shaman". Which that deck doesn't have. When someone stalls themselves due to something you "obviously" have, then you just kicked their gearbox. So change gears. You've got reasonable bodies to put on board and some tools. Surprise is a meta-tool.
Although admittedly, you have to play to your deck's strength anyway. If you worry too much about what the opponent will do to you, you lose. So you can't necessarily always play around cards. But some things are so synonymous with Shaman, that largish things on board with reasonable early game/control, doesn't really cross people's minds. Totem Shaman you are not. Nor pure faceroll. I'd probably be able to play the deck (maybe with some modification) to about rank 7-10. Maybe higher.
ps. Still unsure about the protector or feral spirits. Both are awesome. But one of them might be that "something else" card. Probably draw. Don't know which though. Since this deck can be played a little slower, as long as some early game is done, maybe that would be where I slot a cult master or manatide. Still crunching numbers and possibilities.....
Post by: Skyrunner on May 28, 2015, 09:38:52 am
Post by: Leafsnail on May 28, 2015, 06:20:02 pm
I'm currently playing (tinker's sharpsword) Oil Rogue, and it's just great. The combo elements are pretty flexible, and when they come together they kill not just your opponent but their entire team. Plus you get to play Black Lotus.
Speaking of which Millhouse Manastorm really needs to be on any list of bad cards, considering it just outright loses you the game against rogues and hurts you severely against a lot of other decks
Post by: Cthulhu on May 28, 2015, 07:14:01 pm
He's actually not awful in Arena though. Spells in general are less common and impactful in arena and of course the combos and such are right out. If the enemy can't follow up then you just coined a 4/4 on turn one. Not bad at all.
Post by: Leafsnail on May 28, 2015, 07:32:40 pm
Post by: Silent_Thunder on May 28, 2015, 07:47:44 pm
Post by: Skyrunner on May 28, 2015, 09:29:50 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on May 28, 2015, 10:53:21 pm
Plus if he's played against a deck that can't really punish free spells on turn 2, or in the topdecking wars at the endgame, he's pretty decent, by virtue of how sweet the tempo swing is.
Post by: Neonivek on May 29, 2015, 12:29:52 am
I run Priest, Shaman, and Druid (but my current Druid deck sucks)
Post by: Cthulhu on May 29, 2015, 01:03:10 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on May 29, 2015, 02:03:24 am
four thaddiusesStick a void terror between Stalagg and Feugen for an optimal quantity of OHFUCKs from the opposition.
Post by: Dutchling on May 29, 2015, 04:55:20 am
also, Highmane seems like a card that works well with and without Rivendare.
Post by: Cthulhu on May 29, 2015, 05:28:59 am
Ugh. I'm normally the kind of guy who says "If I couldn't have done anything about a loss then anger is useless so I don't care." That really gets put to the test when it happens twice in a row though. First game I basically had no chance at any point in the game, one of those games where you just never have the cards you need. Second one I was definitely winning through most of the game, then it turns out he has a bunch of legendaries and I lose via the hasn't played as long as the other guy clause.
Post by: Leafsnail on May 29, 2015, 10:13:37 am
Post by: Cthulhu on May 29, 2015, 11:52:50 am
Realized I've been too limited in putting new cards in my basic-set decks and started making some changed. In particular I swapped my stormwind champions for Kel'thuzad who basically serves the exact same purpose (underwhelming on his own, win condition with a good board) but he's more decisive and way more fun.
Post by: Skyrunner on June 03, 2015, 10:35:48 am
Post by: Cthulhu on June 03, 2015, 02:43:59 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on June 03, 2015, 02:53:52 pm
Post by: penguinofhonor on June 03, 2015, 03:32:31 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on June 03, 2015, 03:48:16 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on June 03, 2015, 04:21:54 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on June 03, 2015, 05:33:03 pm
Druid with Life tap: This deck is utter bullshit, Blizz pls nerf.
Oil Rogue with Fireblast: Where'd my win condition go?
Warrior with Steady Shot: I guess I can't control now.
Post by: Teneb on June 03, 2015, 05:56:53 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on June 03, 2015, 06:11:18 pm
Druid with mage: Who cares
Druid with Paladin: Who cares
Druid with shaman: Who cares
Druid with hunter: Interesting, but not that interesting
Druid with priest: Probably better then their base one but not that exciting
Druid with rogue: who cares
Druid with warrior: who cares
I could do eight more classes, but I won't because they are all like that. (Except like I mentioned Warlock and Priest)
Yes, the warlock hero power is a big outlier and would be a big challenge for any new one to be made (Although if it was good enough it might end up working for demonlock. Obviously hand and Zoo can never use anything else). Other then that, yes a few archetypes like control warrior and oil rogue wouldn't work, but that's not really a big deal since I doubt the idea would be to keep the game the same.
Also rogue weapons were made pretty much with the opposite in mind, which is probably why no one runs them anymore >.>
Post by: sambojin on June 03, 2015, 06:31:36 pm
Each individual totem is great. That they're totally unreliable isn't. Ok, you can cut the odds down a bit ("Well, I have a taunt and a heal, so it's a 50/50 on what I'll get next"), but that isn't reliable.
Strangely enough, if you could rely on it, it would probably be OP.
Would be an awesome weapon card. "When this weapon is in play, all totems are of "X" type."
Because shaman needs 4 more niche cards. That's how bad the hero power is.
Post by: frostshotgg on June 03, 2015, 06:39:50 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on June 03, 2015, 07:02:30 pm
I think you're really not acknowledging how significant some hero powers are to the playstyle of most decks.
Um. Yeah. I'm not. Because it's not. Some decks are absolutely reliant on the hero power, but it's certainly not most. Not to mention that totally doesn't actually matter. Obviously I don't except that suddenly handlock will be using a new warlock power, and frankly if it did that would completely defeat the point of any expansion if it just made it so the old stuff stayed in and nothing new came. If new hero powers come they won't be there to prop up old decks (at least not old decks that are actually used), and I don't see what the point of saying that something could be op is. Obviously that's true. But presumably that's not what's happening? I'm just trying to say that new hero powers are A: Not that hard (except for warlock and maybe priest) and that B: A lot of classes and even decks are not reliant on their hero power, so it not like you NEED hero powers with super synergy.
Edit: And just to reiterate. None of that applies to warlock and sorta not to priest, since they actually are reliant, as a class, on their hero power.
Post by: Skyrunner on June 04, 2015, 02:44:11 am
Post by: Neonivek on June 04, 2015, 02:53:53 am
Post by: sambojin on June 04, 2015, 04:46:40 am
How you use it (or not, depending on deck and targets) changes a lot. But mutable, it isn't. It's absolutely rock solid at what it does.
It just isn't very good (as a use of mana).
Post by: penguinofhonor on June 04, 2015, 07:29:52 am
Post by: frostshotgg on June 04, 2015, 08:27:12 am
Post by: Skyrunner on June 04, 2015, 08:47:59 am
Also, I like to use the ping to activate Sheep for a ghetto Flamestrike.
Post by: penguinofhonor on June 04, 2015, 03:22:47 pm
Post by: Dutchling on June 04, 2015, 03:24:49 pm
Post by: penguinofhonor on June 04, 2015, 03:27:54 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on June 04, 2015, 04:43:35 pm
...
Wait.
What.
Ten bucks per hero?
Wow.
Post by: Dutchling on June 05, 2015, 07:36:15 am
any price would be reasonable imo
Post by: Cthulhu on June 05, 2015, 07:48:28 am
Post by: Criptfeind on June 05, 2015, 08:23:38 am
Edit: Or actually I just realized that there might be a lot more people then I was expecting who only play one class. I didn't consider it, because I personally hate that I only have the cards needed to play one class. But maybe if you exclusively play only a single class, even though all the meta shifts, getting that classes alternate art might be worth while as like, a badge of being really hard core into that class or something. Maybe there are a lot of people like that? If so that might make sense, and that's probably information that blizzard has access to.
Post by: penguinofhonor on June 05, 2015, 10:06:37 am
Post by: sambojin on June 05, 2015, 10:52:01 pm
There's plenty of people with two of everything they could possibly ever want and just want to keep playing with "more cool stuff". To me, this isn't that, even if I had everything.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 17, 2015, 02:09:16 pm
My personal thoughts: The mode is pretty fun. Although sorta a weak start to the brawls. Prebuilt decks are a bit of a let down.
I'm not sure on the balance, I haven't played enough to really tell so far. Although the dynamic between the two heroes is very basic, not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. But I sorta like it.
Post by: frostshotgg on June 17, 2015, 04:02:45 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on June 17, 2015, 04:22:07 pm
Nef certainly does have some instant win hands though.
Post by: PanH on June 17, 2015, 05:11:20 pm
I gota majorly disagree on the quality of the deck thing. Flame imp shining out as the one bit of trash, but everything else I've pulled from rag is pretty much pure gold, and all basically exactly what he needs to fight Nef. Not that it's probably enough with a 4 mana lead, but it's certainly geared to help. Nefs deck feels a lot more random and weak overall.Nah, Rag's deck is pretty much shit. I played 13 times as Rag vs a friend Nef (dunno why I was getting only Rag), and I just won 2 times. These 2 times are when he doesn't get Vael turn 2 or 3.
Nef certainly does have some instant win hands though.
Seriously, Rag needs to survive the first 6 turns, and after that he has the upper hand. But he has shit cards to do this, because they all costs too much or are ineffective.
The only few are Living Bomb and the one that puts corruption on every minions.
Flamestrike is useless (only crea with 4hp is the one that does 3 damage with a dragon and 7 mana), thaurissan and his wife are useless, the first hero power is useless, armor + draw is useless, Baron Geddon is useless (too late and small effect). In comparison to Nef's cards, Rag's costs way too much, especially the ones that are from classes decks (I think the worse ones are the Shaman's with overload).
In a normal deck, Rag's card would be awesome, but most of Nef's minions are 6/6 or 7/7.
Coren is only useful if the Nefarian puts the Golem which reduces spells costs by 3, allowing you to play Coren + Brawl for 6.
Post by: Neonivek on June 17, 2015, 05:46:43 pm
I am actually stuck with my current missions because it requires me to play two decks that I havn't touched.
Great idea for game design I tell you... "Go play these things you can't play!"
Post by: Leafsnail on June 18, 2015, 11:06:18 pm
Nah, Rag's deck is pretty much shit. I played 13 times as Rag vs a friend Nef (dunno why I was getting only Rag), and I just won 2 times. These 2 times are when he doesn't get Vael turn 2 or 3.Rag has two very good early minions - the 6/6 taunt for 2 and the 6/3 fireball for 3. Those both fight Nefarion's minions well, and you should be looking for them in your mulligans (as well as Living Bomb). Moira is pretty good as well and may sometimes be keepable, she'll trade for at least one thing and an early Thaurissian effect really helps.
Seriously, Rag needs to survive the first 6 turns, and after that he has the upper hand. But he has shit cards to do this, because they all costs too much or are ineffective.
The only few are Living Bomb and the one that puts corruption on every minions.
Flamestrike is useless (only crea with 4hp is the one that does 3 damage with a dragon and 7 mana), thaurissan and his wife are useless, the first hero power is useless, armor + draw is useless, Baron Geddon is useless (too late and small effect). In comparison to Nef's cards, Rag's costs way too much, especially the ones that are from classes decks (I think the worse ones are the Shaman's with overload).
In a normal deck, Rag's card would be awesome, but most of Nef's minions are 6/6 or 7/7.
Flamestrike and Geddon aren't helpful early, but they help shut the door on Nefarion later by answering Open the Gates and Onyxia. Coren is pretty incredible at seizing the board back from Nefarion, especially since Nefarion can't really do much with no minions out unless he pulls something from his power.
Coren is only useful if the Nefarian puts the Golem which reduces spells costs by 3, allowing you to play Coren + Brawl for 6.By the way I'm pretty sure you should never play Electron unless you plan to immediately sacrifice it to Shadowflame. It helps Ragnaros a lot and does close to nothing for you.
Post by: Cthulhu on June 18, 2015, 11:59:31 pm
It is honestly getting harder and harder to play this game if your a new player because all the players have been playing for a while and starting decks SUUUUCK!
I am actually stuck with my current missions because it requires me to play two decks that I havn't touched.
Great idea for game design I tell you... "Go play these things you can't play!"
Are you sure the thing that sucks isn't you? The default decks you start the game with are garbo but every class has perfectly viable decks that can be made with just the basic set. Most of them can be expanded with cheap cards from the expert set as well. You should really have no trouble getting into the game.
Post by: Neonivek on June 19, 2015, 12:11:44 am
It is just getting harder and I am not in a zone with a huge player base. So it isn't unusual for me to fight the same person in several times in a row.
I can do decently enough with my built decks... But alas I am not going to be able to do squat with my warrior or paladin decks for a while.
Oddly enough I would love to see the ultimate "Generic Deck" as in a deck that is built as if it had no class and no class skill in use.
---
Yep Cthulhu I knew you were full of it :P
made a "Deck with what I got" nope it is full of garbage that can't win :P
I just have to hope for another person using a base deck... which will be people having the exact same issue I am which is that they can't win unless they fight base decks :P
Only non-base I beat was a Rogue deck... I think...
---
One reason I love my priest deck is because against people who just get a ton of legendary cards and basically Buy victory... I have a chance to turn the tide on them.
Ohh you just summoned a 20 dollar card? Well it is mine now! And this card barely costs a dollar if I chose to buy it!
Post by: frostshotgg on June 19, 2015, 05:40:55 am
This playlist has a solid deck using only basic cards for each class followed by a game with each deck.
"My cards aren't good" is a garbage excuse. You can still get to legend using only zoo from the classic set, which costs something on the order of 700 dust and uses mostly commons and base cards.
Post by: Neonivek on June 19, 2015, 05:56:59 am
In order to not get hit with the "Garbage cards"
I need to go online... read a guide... follow a SPECIFIC set of instructions and copy someone elses deck?
By the by he leveled up those decks DOESN'T COUNT!
Not spending another 5 hours maxing out my characters... just to not die constantly
Post by: Dutchling on June 19, 2015, 06:00:20 am
Trying to make your own decks without understanding the good decks, and more importantly, understanding why they are good is just silly.
Post by: Neonivek on June 19, 2015, 06:02:04 am
Copying good decks is a fundamental part of every even remotely competitive TCG.
No, that is the worst part of TCG... It fundamentally destroys it. I am not fighting you I am fighting someone elses deck.
Post by: Dutchling on June 19, 2015, 06:05:08 am
Baby steps, Neonivek :)
Post by: Neonivek on June 19, 2015, 06:06:57 am
Once you properly understand the game you can start tweaking the traditionally good decks to better fight the decks you are facing, and after that you can try brewing your own decks from start.
Baby steps, Neonivek :)
All I did was come in here and say that it is getting harder for new people to get into this because the base competency of the player base is increases... meaning the base decks don't cut it as much
Apperantly it means I am waging war with the game's fundamental nature
That and it sucks to get a mission with characters you have no decks for...
Post by: Dutchling on June 19, 2015, 06:09:18 am
Quote
I need to go online... read a guide... follow a SPECIFIC set of instructions and copy someone elses deck?Is a weird or bad thing at all.
Maybe it's because I'm used to playing Magic the Gathering, but playing a deck without first reading and watching some primers and deck techs seems silly to me.
Post by: Neonivek on June 19, 2015, 06:10:18 am
I'm just saying I don't think this:QuoteI need to go online... read a guide... follow a SPECIFIC set of instructions and copy someone elses deck?Is a weird or bad thing at all.
For me it kind of... ruins the game...
It is like reading a guide for a Point and click...
I want to sort of get my hands dirty and build my own decks and make it on my own. With the only guides I read about basic deck building strategies then "How to make their deck"
It is why the PC magic the gathering games felt like a cheap imitation of MTG. Because they are all prebuilt.
It is why "Read a guide" is such odd advice to me.
Post by: JimiD on June 19, 2015, 06:23:01 am
I found the Icy Veins website to have good Basic decks, which cost zero dust, and got me to 18 rank. I have heard that the best players can take the decks from Basic cards to Legend. So its not just the cards. But they sure do help!
And while I still lose to players with a handful of legendary cards, its a great feeling when you beat them!
For the time (practice) and money (zero) I put in, I hover around 17-18 rank. I got to 15 at the end of the last season, once. And if I am trying a new class or deck, my rank tanks until I either get down to my new level, or I start to learn to play the deck. But that's okay.
Post by: Dutchling on June 19, 2015, 06:24:34 am
Quote
I want to sort of get my hands dirty and build my own decks and make it on my own.
Not an uncommon sentiment. But it will be very hard to make good decks without knowing what a good deck actually is.
I won't stop you from trying though :)
Quote
It is why the PC magic the gathering games felt like a cheap imitation of MTG. Because they are all prebuilt.
The 2015 version actually does allow you to make your own deck in case you weren't aware. It lacks a lot of other cool stuff from the older versions though, so I would only recommend it it you can get it for cheap, although I think you can get a free demo on tablets.
Post by: Neonivek on June 19, 2015, 06:27:26 am
It allows cards that have been banned from legacy for years.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 19, 2015, 07:46:55 am
Admittedly the metagame is rather hostile to basic decks right now, I can imagine Patron Warrior being very hard to beat.
e: one piece of advice I have is to put your gold towards GvG packs for a while. A lot of the commons are very good and will improve the quality of your minions dramatically, and also the mech synergy package (which is pretty much entirely at common) is fairly powerful.
Post by: wereboar on June 19, 2015, 08:10:59 am
Firstly, you can reroll a quest once per day. Look for a "x" button on the upper right. This way you can avoid doing quests you don't like. If you don't like the new result either, wait another day and reroll again. That's what I do.
Secondly, start playing arena. This is the format where everyone has equal chance to build a good deck and everything depends on your skills. This way you will hone your skill AND gather enough boosters to perform better in ranked. When you become a good enough Arena player and can consistently make it to at least 7 wins, you will stop having trouble with gold.
Post by: Baneling on June 19, 2015, 08:16:15 am
Post by: Dutchling on June 19, 2015, 08:19:13 am
Post by: Neonivek on June 19, 2015, 08:21:55 am
@Neonivek,
Firstly, you can reroll a quest once per day. Look for a "x" button on the upper right. This way you can avoid doing quests you don't like. If you don't like the new result either, wait another day and reroll again. That's what I do.
Secondly, start playing arena. This is the format where everyone has equal chance to build a good deck and everything depends on your skills. This way you will hone your skill AND gather enough boosters to perform better in ranked. When you become a good enough Arena player and can consistently make it to at least 7 wins, you will stop having trouble with gold.
I got really screwed over last time. I actually got the same quest...
As for Arena right now my big concern is that I might not get all the cards... I don't know if "Goblins and Gnomes" includes the basic set too.
So I alternate between Arena and basic sets.
Post by: Dutchling on June 19, 2015, 08:29:07 am
However, you also get dust and gold if you do well in Arena, so you can get every card just by playing Arena regardless.
Post by: wereboar on June 19, 2015, 08:41:54 am
Become good at playing arena and you will get GvG packs and have enough gold to buy basic packs too.
When you just buy packs instead of earning them in arena you rob yourself of play experience and potential larger returns.
BTW, GvG packs alone can build you some very powerful mech decks. Mech mage is very cheap, not too difficult to play and very strong. I got to rank 12 with a deck only containing GvG and basic mage cards.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 19, 2015, 08:59:00 am
Post by: wereboar on June 19, 2015, 09:09:29 am
Decklist is as following:
x2 Cogmaster
x2 Clockwork Gnome
x2 Snowchugger
x2 Frostbolt
x2 Annoyotron
x2 Mechwarper
x2 Spidertank
x2 Tinkertown Tech
x2 Mirror Entity
x2 Water Elemental
x2 Piloted Shredder
x2 Fireball
x2 Polymorph
x2 Goblin Blastmage (or Mech Yetis if you don't have Blastmages)
x2 Flamewave
Cheap as dirt. Got to rank 12 easily.
Only card you need from basic set is mirror entity. But that's a really important card so should spend dust on it anyway.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 19, 2015, 09:32:46 am
One thing I'll say about the cards is that they're versatile. I crafted both of them for Mech Mage, and although I don't play Mech Mage much any more I'm still using them in other decks.
Your list looks decent, although I don't think Mirror Entity is actually good without Mad Scientist (too often it's just a 2/1, and it's not a mech). I'd probably put in the Harvest Golems for them. I'd also suggest adding in some card draw to help you find your fireballs to finish the game, whether that's Azure Drakes or just Arcane Intellects.
e: actually I guess Harvest Golem isn't really used outside of mech decks anymore, it got replaced in Zoo by Imp Gang Boss. Still, I think you're probably going to be using it in most of your decks if you don't have the adventures.
Post by: wereboar on June 19, 2015, 09:38:30 am
Mirror entity is great for stalling the enemy from playing their good minions. Stealing one is just a bonus, but the goal here is just to buy another turn. The deck has a very strong start so if you manage to control the board from early on, you're good.
Of course it is a comprehensive list, feel free to change a few things.
Post by: Neonivek on June 19, 2015, 10:07:22 am
It seems to quite handily made a large percent of the basic deck now completely obsolete (Hey much cheaper 1/4 taunt character who also has charge!)
Which is quite... typical for card games... and frankly Hearthstone isn't that bad (Yu-Gi-Oh is pretty bad... at this)
It does make collecting the basic deck sometimes a bit painful.
Well outside a few cards.
I still like my Shaman deck, though I probably could add some better cards to it... I'll post it soon.
Post by: Dutchling on June 19, 2015, 10:19:04 am
Hey much cheaper 1/4 taunt character who also has chargeBut that card is literally unplayable D:
Post by: wereboar on June 19, 2015, 10:34:19 am
GvG did introduce some cards that are strictly better than bad/bad'ish cards from basic set. But good cards from basic set are still good. My main deck (cleric) has like 2 or 3 cards from GvG.
Post by: Dutchling on June 19, 2015, 10:40:24 am
Don't know about the recent Dragon set though.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 19, 2015, 12:02:40 pm
It seems to quite handily made a large percent of the basic deck now completely obsolete (Hey much cheaper 1/4 taunt character who also has charge!)Silverback Patriarch is, and always has been, insanely bad. I don't think it has ever been a good option for any deck at any point in the game's lifetime, even for people with no cards outside the basic set. Even the version with Charge isn't good. Heck, I think it could cost 2 mana and it still wouldn't be very good.
Post by: Cthulhu on June 19, 2015, 02:01:15 pm
An attack below 3 without something big to back it up (charge and taunt is not big) is going to be mostly useless because it won't be able to trade for anything valuable.
In general when looking at a card's stats, defense is more important than attack as long as the attack is at least 3, with a few exceptions. Booty Bay Bodyguard is bad because his low defense means he won't be able to do his job of stalling. Core Hound is insanely bad because it can be killed for three mana and at that stage of the game a four mana deficit is probably insurmountable. Oasis Snapjaw is bad because his low attack makes him a negligible threat. Slap a houndmaster on him though and he becomes really hard to deal with, so it's sometimes worthwhile to bring one in hunter decks.
Aside from Dr Boom who's literally cancer in that he has a pernicious effect on the whole game (every other legendary becomes less viable because everyone runs big game hunter because everyone runs dr boom) GvG doesn't power creep super hard. Both of the cards you mentioned are garbo and not worth putting in any deck unless you've got some weird shenanigans up your sleeve.
The base competency thing is bullshit, you're not the only new person playing the game. You're just deliberately choosing not to use the resources available to you. It's like a baby seeing its parents dancing and trying to get up and dance right away, and getting mad because the playing field isn't level. You have to learn to crawl before you can walk, and the best way to learn to crawl is to use decks made by other people and learn why they make htem the way they do.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 19, 2015, 03:17:31 pm
That said, other than Boom most of the good GvG cards are common or rare, and almost all the good BRM cards are in the first wing (purchasable for 700 gold). The power in them is actually pretty accessible compared to the fleet of legendaries that used to dominate (Sylvanas, Rag etc).
Post by: Astral on June 19, 2015, 03:40:16 pm
Arena was fun, if only it didn't take gold to play. At least there everyone is using a randomized deck, and the playing field (in terms of cards) is fairly equal, if not in skill.
Post by: Dutchling on June 19, 2015, 03:45:16 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on June 19, 2015, 04:51:19 pm
Post by: Neonivek on June 19, 2015, 05:20:55 pm
I wouldn't say power creep is too bad in HS.
GvG did introduce some cards that are strictly better than bad/bad'ish cards from basic set. But good cards from basic set are still good. My main deck (cleric) has like 2 or 3 cards from GvG.
Naw Pokémon and Yu-Gi-Oh had much worse power creep between editions.
It is just noticeable is all.
----
Anyhow as I said I'd show my decks and here they are... With their actual in game name
First up
Weak Priest
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
-My thoughts: This deck was what I used to be better then the original finished priest deck using the best cards I had at the time... not kidding.
Copycat (Priest deck)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
My Thoughts: This is a very fun deck, I honestly don't get Northshire Cleric out as much as I need to... But when I do it is fun. Mostly because it beats TERRIBLE decks that win via spending money on the game.
Pathetic Shaman
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Thoughts: Honestly I have NO idea what makes this deck work... I basically tried to make a deck where those totems would be useful and basically made this.
Palaweak (Paladin Deck... of terrible cards)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Thoughts: This was honestly the best I could do with only the cards I have and it suuuuucks!
There those are all my decks.
Post by: Dutchling on June 19, 2015, 05:37:23 pm
Might as well run that free AoE heal at that point.
Post by: Neonivek on June 19, 2015, 05:43:44 pm
Have you tried that 4/7 for 3 that deals 4 damage to itself as a battlecry in Priest? It's not a Class card but it might as well be, it's insane in Priest.
Might as well run that free AoE heal at that point.
Don't own it.
All those cards in those decks are just about "all" the cards I have.
Post by: Dutchling on June 19, 2015, 05:45:18 pm
I assume you're saving up your dust for Auchenais? Those things are absolute beasts <3
Post by: Neonivek on June 19, 2015, 05:45:46 pm
Heh. I've seen it so much I swore it was a basic.
I assume you're saving up your dust for Auchenais? Those things are absolute beasts <3
No, not saving up my dust for anything.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 19, 2015, 06:14:21 pm
Post by: PanH on June 19, 2015, 06:51:56 pm
Demonist Zoo would be the one that needs the least.
I think you could pretty decent (not good, but decent) face hunter or demonist zoo or even a basic mage with the cards you have. I used to have a huntard with one knife juggler and one dire wolf alpha (take that instead of raid leader if you have it, raid leader is bad), and I didn't really climb the ladder, but I had around 50% winrate (hovering at rank 19).
I heard there will be an expansion during the summer, I'm guessing a card expansion (like GvG), so hopefully they will reorganize the basic cards a bit, cuz it's getting harder and harder for newcomers to get in with each expansion and each new adventures. Though, knowing Blizzard, I doubt it :'(
Of the cards you have, I'd recommend the following changes :
Silverback patriach is really meh, I think I prefer the ironfur grizzly, though they are better 3-drops (not taunts). Best are harvest golem or spider tank.
Shattered sun cleric isn't that good, unless you have nerubian eggs or stuff like that.
Chillwind yetis are very good, but senjins are a good 4-cost too. Frostwolf warlord is good only if your deck aims to develop a board presence early and keep it.
To have 2 elven archers, 2 northshire and 2 voodoo is too much, especially as a priest, which is kind of a late game class. The northshire is very good, so take it, but you don't always need a 1-drop, unless you're rushing.
Lord of the Arena isn't that great, and booty bay neither. Stormwind champion is good, especially if you have board control. Boulderfist ogre (the only intelligent ogre :D) is a good late creature too.
As paladin, in 95% cases, you'll want to take at least 1 consecration (often 2). That's a basic card.
Also, you have 6 Lord of the Arena in your paladin deck :P
Post by: Neonivek on June 19, 2015, 07:14:16 pm
Quote
raid leader is bad
He is only decent in my Shaman deck. If only because it is all about the Flametongue totems.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 19, 2015, 07:52:00 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on June 19, 2015, 08:08:45 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on June 19, 2015, 09:03:08 pm
Post by: Neonivek on June 19, 2015, 10:01:09 pm
That's not really power creep though, that's just decks inevitably getting better with more options. Power creep refers more to cards just being more powerful in each expansion, rendering old cards obsolete immediately.
Power Creep doesn't necessarily mean the numbers are getting bigger (though yeah the new cards do often seem to have more bang for your mana).
What you described is the perfect example of power creep. You just get "better options" that make the old ones "worse options".
So long as you make the older card obsolete, because there is a better card, it is power creep.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 19, 2015, 10:27:52 pm
Post by: Neonivek on June 19, 2015, 10:34:24 pm
If that's your definition than power creep is not a bad or even an avoidable thing. What, are you expecting them to release nothing but unplayable garbage in each update?
And who said power creep isn't avoidable or necessarily always bad?
The only way these card games could avoid power creep would be if they were able to adjust the stats of the old cards. (something Yu-Gi-Oh does... the only card game I know of that actually prints "improved" versions of cards... Outside I guess Pokémon but that is kind of something separate)
Post by: Criptfeind on June 19, 2015, 10:46:59 pm
Anywaaay.
Just going though the decks Neo posted. Random thoughts.
Priest 1:Mind vision bad. elven archer bad. Voodoo doctor bad but maybe slightly worth it in priest. Divine spirit I don't like it but I guess it's okay. Shadow word pain is good enough for 2. Annoyotron seems pretty questionable. Shatterned sun cleric is good despite what some might say. Silverback bad. Two shadow word deaths might be a bit much, although I'd probably have to decide based on what I fight most often. Dragonling is okay, but the way the health is broken up probably isn't great on a priest, I dunno. You have 4(5) late game 'win' cards. Frostwolf warlord, two berserkers, and a mind control, they are all pretty situational, I'd drop 1-2 of them (probably a berserker and the warlord, or just one berserker depending on how often you can get that warlord value) for boulderfists. Molten Giant why?
Other priest: Pretty much the same for the low cost stuff. What, you have two thoughtsteals, but they are not in the other deck? I'd drop a beserker again for a boulderfist.
Shaman: I'm less a fan of shaman. I sorta see what you're going for. Although I don't like frostshocks, and as someone said rockbiters and fire elementals are too good not to have in pretty much any shaman deck. There are also a lot of sorta substandard minions I'd look at, like the raid leaders and frostwolf grunts, might be worth it to just turn them into normal minions at their cost. Windfury can be sorta bad as well yeah. Or at least pointless. Who knows. Molten giant why?
Paladin: I love paladin. Annoytron is weak, raid leader is weak, nullifer is weak, bodyguards are weak, 6 lords of the arena is probably 6 lords to many. Also concentration is super good and blessing of kings is probably at least a one of. Also guardian of kings is good! Poor mans heal bot that's eveeeeen better in some matchups. I'd also probably take out a warlord for a ogre or a guardian. Molten giant why?
I'm not sure if you were courting advice/questions. But there you go. In general your decks seem to have the general theme of sacrificing basic strength for special abilities, even when those abilities are not worth it. And also a random Molten Giant. If I had general advice I'd look towards removing some more clunky/weak special ability focused minions (like raid leader and the x+1/x taunts as examples) for just good basic strong minons like the yeti and ogres.
Playing more brawl recently. Although rags certainly at a disadvantage, I still feel that it's not THAT bad. I'm still hanging around a 80% win rate with rag, unless nef pulls razorgore or vaelastrasz, it feels like rag really has a lot of cards that are very good at dealing with the insane aggression. It is hard though. And very RNG with that hero power. Also gota say, flame strike and Baron Geddon are very often key cards, despite what someone mentioned earlier. Open the Gates is pretty much the winning card for Nef more often then not late game. It's insane value, and without an AOE it's both huge damage and shuts down rags hero power. And even without open the gates a lot of rags cards fall just short of the damage they need in the mid game, in the early game you can rely on your weapon for that extra damage. But I've found it's not uncommon to sometimes have a couple of dudes with 2 health hanging around on the enemies side.
Post by: Neonivek on June 19, 2015, 11:04:59 pm
We are pretty close to that point... IMO
Post by: Leafsnail on June 19, 2015, 11:13:41 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on June 19, 2015, 11:23:54 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on June 19, 2015, 11:47:30 pm
Post by: Skyrunner on June 19, 2015, 11:49:24 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on June 19, 2015, 11:51:22 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on June 20, 2015, 02:35:26 am
Re: Sylvanas. Slyvanas and Tharissan serve massively different purposes. Sylvanas is the queen of incredibly awkward plays that swing the game wildly in your favor. Tharissan forces your opponent to have an answer, but if they have board control then they can usually kill it. That's entirely opposite what Sylvanas' purpose is.
Post by: Skyrunner on June 20, 2015, 02:51:00 am
Post by: frostshotgg on June 20, 2015, 02:58:48 am
Post by: Skyrunner on June 20, 2015, 03:04:56 am
No board presence, my own doomsayer got silenced, and I didn't draw another doomsayer fast enough to not die. I even sacrificed a loot hoarder and a Thalnos to desperately cycle for cards.
I'm considering swapping a loot hoarder for polymorph, seeing that this is the second time I've been owned by a divine spirit priest.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 20, 2015, 06:54:34 am
Foe Reaper 4000 is a fun car, but it's glacially slow. If you want, toss it into a deck. I wouldn't dust it for Thalnos specifically though. Thalnos has the dubious honor of being the legendary with the single closest common proxy in Kobold Geomancer. Thalnos is massively better because it can also cycle in matchups where that's needed, but I wouldn't dust a card which you like for it.I wouldn't put Geomancer in a deck. Thalnos is probably replacable, but the cantrip is really essential to making him good. You rarely want to spend a card on spell damage, so just put a good card in for him rather than a bad one that looks similar.
Re: Sylvanas. Slyvanas and Tharissan serve massively different purposes. Sylvanas is the queen of incredibly awkward plays that swing the game wildly in your favor. Tharissan forces your opponent to have an answer, but if they have board control then they can usually kill it. That's entirely opposite what Sylvanas' purpose is.
It doesn't really matter is they kill Thaurissan, you get his effect immediately. Aylvanas is probably better in control, but you aren't gonna be playing that for a while anyway.
Post by: JimiD on June 22, 2015, 07:36:51 am
My first, and only, legendary is Nat Pagel. A 2 mana 0-4, who has a 50% chance of drawing a card at the beginning of each turn. I throw him into decks when I want to remind myself to play for fun. He is pretty useless, but I am always surprised by what people will do to take him out. Almost worth it just to throw people off...
Post by: frostshotgg on June 22, 2015, 08:40:18 am
Post by: Dutchling on June 22, 2015, 08:48:03 am
Novice Engineer was an auto-include when it was a 1/2. Now it's 1/1 and it's only played in decks that really need the draw.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 22, 2015, 09:07:35 am
I am curious as to whether pre-nerf Novice Engineer or Nat Pagle would be played today, there are a lot more strong early plays you can make now.
Post by: sambojin on June 22, 2015, 11:20:18 am
I actually wouldn't be surprised if Thaurissan got the same nerf eventually (effect changed to the beginning of your turn, rather than the end), because he's too reliable currently and is almost an auto-include in many decks.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 22, 2015, 11:24:47 am
Post by: frostshotgg on June 22, 2015, 11:48:05 am
Post by: Leafsnail on June 22, 2015, 12:04:59 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on June 22, 2015, 12:15:25 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on June 22, 2015, 12:23:33 pm
Post by: TherosPherae on June 22, 2015, 04:23:46 pm
Novice Engineer was an auto-include when it was a 1/2. Now it's 1/1 and it's only played in decks that really need the draw.Or, more specifically, decks that need the cheap draw but also benefit from having a small body on board over the lack of a body from spells like Arcane Intellect. I ran it for a while in Soul of the Forest Token Druid before Patron Warrior became a thing and destroyed all my wonderful trees ;-;
Post by: PanH on June 22, 2015, 07:14:30 pm
Not really, I find Gnomish Engineer's body relevant in most aggro matchups, and I tend to play it out before I'm looking to combo off anyway. It can eat almost all the creatures that stuff like aggro paladin, face hunter and zoo put out.I agree. Plus, there's already the Acolyte of Pain. A 1/2 wouldn't be half as efficient (knife juggler, dire wolf, etc).
Post by: Leafsnail on June 22, 2015, 08:27:48 pm
Post by: sambojin on June 22, 2015, 08:29:23 pm
Worgen Infiltrator × 2 1
Zombie Chow × 2 1
Rockbiter Weapon × 2 1
Earth Shock x 1 1
Wind Fury x 2 2
Stormforged Axe × 1 2
Whirling Zap-o-matic × 2 2
Crackle × 1 2
Sunfury Protector × 1 2
Acidic Swamp Ooze × 1 2
Faerie Dragon × 1 2
Acolyte of Pain × 2 3
Shattered Sun Cleric × 1 3
Feral Spirit × 1 3
Hex × 1 3
Big Game Hunter × 1 3
Unbound Elemental/Hungry Dragon x 2 4
Piloted Shredder × 1 4
Fireguard Destroyer × 2 4
Faceless Manipulator × 1 5
Earth Elemental × 2 5
Newer Shaman zoo deck. I'm not really happy with the Unbound Elementals in place of the Hungry Dragons (even with a fair bit of overload in the deck. Dragons are inherently "better". Pick whichever you want, I'm still fairly sure the dragons work more easily). Windfury got added for a dropped Faerie Dragon. It's a weird form of ramping in of itself, late or early. Dropped Mukkla for an extra Windfury for reliability (could have been an Earthshock or any minion/direct damage/board changer for 1-3 mana. Could even drop a Manatide Totem in, if wanted. Maybe another Sunfury Protector or even a Defender of Argus? Whatever, Mukkla's out, even if he's awesome and can be a win condition with Windfury) for a bit more control and due to the fact that handlocks are an ever present problem at even mid ranks (the early big body tends to kick you worse than it could ever help you).
So, still big bodies that do stuff with a grab bag of things that do stuff. Rolls a bit harder, and sort of quicker, even losing some strong early minions. I'll tell you how it goes. I think I'll keep the dragons though.
edit: changed a hex to a windfury for more burstiness.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 22, 2015, 09:23:47 pm
I also think you really want to run Fire Elemental if you're trying to be midrange, it's just an incredibly good card. Earth Elemental has the problem of being a BGH target that basically makes you skip your next turn.
Post by: frostshotgg on June 22, 2015, 09:27:30 pm
Post by: sambojin on June 22, 2015, 11:44:59 pm
Nice against token or hunter rush, not too bad against warriors of any kind/patron.
Give it a burl. It's not fast zoo, just big zoo.
Always hold a Windfury and a Rockbiter in your hand, unless you really need to kill something. Opponents often think it's a Lightning Storm or Hex. They are your win conditions. Keep hitting face while controlling the board if able (zoo thing). Then keep tap, tap, tapping, away at face or board conditions, while dropping the occasional totem so you don't waste mana. Minions are your damage like always in Shaman. Bigger things just keep piling on in from your hand, even without ramp. Then you crack shit with a big minion. But ensure win conditions are kept in hand. Taunt or early game minions just nullifies rush and sets reasonable board state. Win conditions are what you hold. Then place 1 or two bodies per turn after wipes happen.
Most things are potentially a threat in this zoo.
Give it a go some time. Zero legendaries, but heaps of dust for rares. But they're damn good rares anyway.
It Runs.
Post by: penguinofhonor on June 22, 2015, 11:51:39 pm
Post by: sambojin on June 22, 2015, 11:56:55 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on June 23, 2015, 06:50:45 am
You've got no card draw. Acolyte is a terrible engine for zoo shaman. You have no way to force proc it and it's too slow to be of use to you. Swap it for Cult Master or Mana Tide totem, depending on how lucky you feel. Also 2x Chow is very questionable.To be fair Shaman's card draw is gonna be abysmal no matter what you do.
Post by: frostshotgg on June 23, 2015, 07:00:30 am
Post by: sambojin on June 23, 2015, 07:07:18 pm
Putting a rockbiter and windfury onto virtually any of the higher mana creatures is 18-20 damage out of nowhere. Can also work with the whirling zapomatics if you've got two rockbiters in hand instead. This can often be done by turn 4-6, which is quite early for that level of damage. There's so many cards to combo off, it's a likelyhood to happen fairly quickly after managing to keep even one decent minion alive. The combo pieces are never truly dead cards either (as bloodlust, firetongues, etc can be). Other than that, it's just normal taunty shaman zoo, with less gubbin than normal (totems, direct damage, etc).
Probably wants a second Windfury in there in place of Mukkla for a bit more reliability. It's not exactly a windfury deck, just zoo with some burst and defense.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 23, 2015, 08:14:36 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on June 23, 2015, 08:24:06 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on June 23, 2015, 09:06:18 pm
- earth shock/ironbeak owl to get past taunts
- charging minions so your guys don't just die on their turn (eg Arcane Golem, Wolfrider)
- Abusive Sergeant/Flametongue Totem for more redundancy in the deck
I actually made a gimmick deck like that, it was sortof OK but inconsistent. It also really needed a Doomhammer that I didn't want to craft.
Post by: frostshotgg on June 24, 2015, 03:43:52 pm
It's really cool, although pulling nothing but rotten bananas when your opponent gets big bananas constantly feels shitty as hell.
As far as decks go, I think token druid with buff oriented cards splashed in is the way to go, although mage with good draws can't lose. I'm pretty sure Violet Teacher is 100% 2x in every conceivable deck though.
Post by: sambojin on June 24, 2015, 05:38:14 pm
That combo isn't reliable at all though - it relies on you drawing a 1/30 card in your deck along with a 2/30, and then also on you sticking a big minion without it dying, and without your opponent playing a taunt to block it (you have no way to get around taunts either). Windfury can also absolutely be dead if you don't have any creatures that can attack this turn.
Meh, edited it to have two Windfury cards (well before you posted :) ). So it's 2/30 and 2/30. Which isn't any worse than virtually any other combo, except this one can be applied to more things. It would be better with more card draw, but the wide range of targets compensates for this a little.
Some charge would be nice, but I can only really think of Leeroy as an option in place of the Faceless Manipulator, but the manipulator is useful for so many things I'm not sure what is better. FM goes great with stealing legendaries or becoming a dragon or EE (with no downside), and can be another threat very easily if you've windfuried one already. It'd be very easy to take out the Earth Elementals entirely for either Fire's or whichever 1-6 mana card you particularly like. They're not the weak link, but they're not the strongest either. I just like giving them some play (and the opponent does run out of answers eventually. Then, Kapow!). Likewise, the Shattered Sun Cleric can be dropped for any 1-3 mana card you like (flametongue or more removal?).
In the end, it's normal zoo. Your creatures take down their taunts, you must have creatures on board to be effective, and you can stall out due to this. Your creatures tend to be a bit bigger than normal, which helps against some of these things, but it's still just zoo with a "go" button. Which isn't really ever a terrible thing. Crackle can go to face or creatures, one ES/Hex/BGH is a fair bit to take care of the bigger threats, an axe for the smaller, AoP tend to make board sweeping a bit more annoying for the opponent (and can sometimes do wonderous things against token decks if you end up with a healing totem in place). So yeah, there's bits, and they're fairly good bits, but reliability is a concern.
It's not a "Legend" level deck (although it might be fun to test it up at that level), but it'll certainly get you up to rank 10 or so with enough play. Virtually any zoo deck will. I just happen to like this one better than zoolock or hunter. It feels more strategic, while still being able to give some cheap'n'cheesy wins. You don't have to save back a win combo, you can just use them to pip more damage at creatures or face, but at least there's options with it. A good player could take the deck quite a bit higher than rank 10, quite easily.
Anyway, I like it, and that's the main thing :)
Post by: Criptfeind on June 24, 2015, 07:22:28 pm
What do you guys think?
Post by: Dutchling on June 24, 2015, 07:43:43 pm
Post by: Skyrunner on June 24, 2015, 09:50:19 pm
Post by: Skyrunner on June 28, 2015, 07:06:31 am
Post by: PanH on June 28, 2015, 07:14:52 am
I'm incredibly annoyed that facehunter and tempo mage are causing everyone to run Kezan Mystic. It's a mild inconvenience to the aforementioend two, but it basically cripples freeze mage if ice block gets stolen.Heh, really ? I've rarely seen Kezan Mystic. In arena, they are everywhere, but in ladder, they're quite rare.
Post by: Skyrunner on June 28, 2015, 07:57:54 am
Post by: Leafsnail on June 28, 2015, 05:44:02 pm
Post by: PanH on June 28, 2015, 06:18:32 pm
Kezan is a rare so it doesn't show up that much in Arena, but it's fairly popular because the top two arena classes (Mage and Paladin) both use secrets, and usually have 1-2 in their decks. It's always a huge beating if it works (since it's an on-board 3-for-1), but freeze mage is certainly hit hardest.This. In my current arena, I had 2 Kezan offered to me (took only one), it seems to be fairly frequent (in both cases I had Kezan and MCT, and they're quite frequent in arena). And I used it already twice in 4 games (got a duplicate which duplicated my kezan :p). In fact, it can even be good as a backup in case the opponent plays a Kezan on your secret (admittedly I only did that once).
In ladder, there's pretty much only the freeze mage which would make a Kezan interesting.
Getting an explosive trap from a facehunter can be good, but the mystic itself will get wrecked by the facehunter early board. And it can activate haunted creepers or stuff like that. There's simply not enough people that play secrets in ladder to make it worthwhile imo, too much grim patrons, demo zoo or lock, mech mage, priest, etc.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 28, 2015, 07:34:45 pm
In freeze mage you also die because they stole the ice block you needed to stay alive.
Post by: Neonivek on June 28, 2015, 10:45:51 pm
I honestly think it is Shaman just because it was a terrible dysfunctional deck that couldn't even do what it is made to do.
But I also havn't really played everyone yet... so... is there honestly one worse than that?
Post by: Skyrunner on June 28, 2015, 11:03:36 pm
I think Mage, Druid, and Warlock are the stronger ones, and Rogue, Warrior, Shaman the weaker ones.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 28, 2015, 11:06:07 pm
Post by: Skyrunner on June 28, 2015, 11:22:04 pm
In the post I wrote before deleting it to write the one above, I said that Rogue basic deck is basically you stall forever but have no win condition, haha.
Post by: frostshotgg on June 28, 2015, 11:28:10 pm
Oil rogue is actually quite a weird deck. It's like grinder mage, except instead of using really good minions and a lot of AoE to stall out your opponent, it relies on using comical amounts of spells and then somehow doing enough damage to your opponent on accident that they die.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 28, 2015, 11:42:32 pm
*2 oils: 18 damage
2 poisons: 8 damage
2 eviscerate: 8 damage
So that's 34 damage in spells, plus a few more from weapon attacks, flurries and whatever minion you're using to hit them. Getting minion beats in takes some pressure off and may let you send this damage elsewhere.
Post by: Skyrunner on June 28, 2015, 11:46:27 pm
Freeze mage has:
* Ice lance x2, conditional 8 damage
* Frostbolt x2, 6 damage
* Fireball x2, 8 damage
* Archmage Antonidas, at least 6 damage
* Thalnos, usually +3 damage
* Alexstrasza, usually 15 damage but useless against tons of shields
28 more or less guaranteed damage from spells, plus maybe 10 extra from Antonidas and/or Thalnos, plus the 15 "damage" from alexstrasza.
And you try to take that damage from your deck and deliver it to face, with the pro that you can't stop it with taunts! The con being that you often die before you can deliver the damage :v
Post by: Leafsnail on June 29, 2015, 01:07:29 am
Post by: frostshotgg on June 29, 2015, 01:08:56 am
Post by: Leafsnail on June 29, 2015, 01:23:17 am
If you look at major tier lists they consistently put Oil Rogue in the top 5 decks (https://tempostorm.com/articles/meta-snapshot-19-from-warrior-to-warrior-and-back-again) because its variety of different options give it a lot of favourable matchups. It's weak to rush decks and to some extent control warrior which may make it worse if you're trying to play at low ranks, but it has even to favourable matchups against everything else. In particular it's good against patron warrior which is relevant right now.
Post by: Criptfeind on July 01, 2015, 06:51:05 pm
What do you guys think?
Post by: frostshotgg on July 01, 2015, 06:52:31 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on July 01, 2015, 07:09:50 pm
Also Nozdormu is secretly OP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCDOZS_vceI
Post by: Orange Wizard on July 02, 2015, 01:50:17 am
That said, did I just watch some guy glitch out the turn timer with brewmasters and make Noz attack twice? Because that's pretty darn fantastic.
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on July 02, 2015, 06:28:59 am
Post by: penguinofhonor on July 02, 2015, 06:37:51 am
Post by: Criptfeind on July 02, 2015, 07:44:28 am
Post by: Leafsnail on July 02, 2015, 10:13:34 am
Nozdormu's real power is messing with people on mobile devices.Also Grim Patron combos. Too bad he arrives too late to do that effectively.
Post by: Orange Wizard on July 03, 2015, 01:29:25 am
He wasted his opponent's entire turn with the brewmaster animations and forced them to skip it.That is also fantastic.
Post by: Leafsnail on July 04, 2015, 11:53:18 am
Post by: Aklyon on July 04, 2015, 03:31:38 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oew91YkG7iUWat.
Post by: Leafsnail on July 05, 2015, 11:53:36 pm
Post by: Cthulhu on July 06, 2015, 12:55:53 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on July 06, 2015, 01:33:30 am
Post by: Criptfeind on July 06, 2015, 08:19:12 am
Post by: penguinofhonor on July 06, 2015, 09:06:17 am
Post by: Leafsnail on July 06, 2015, 02:09:39 pm
http://hearthstone.gamepedia.com/Advanced_rulebook
This one's pretty good for working out how various "on-death" effects resolve.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3d_qlm4Xws
Huh. I learned something new. I thought that dead bodies prevented new spawns until they cleared. In fact, in my experience with grim patron, I know they do. So I guess I didn't learn actually something so much as learn there is a exception to a rule, but I still don't know how it works.That's true now, but when this video was recorded (pre-GvG) that wasn't the case.
Post by: Criptfeind on July 15, 2015, 06:23:08 pm
It sucks.
Worst one yet? I think so. (RIP Banana brawl, king of shite.)
Er. Anyone else have any thoughts on it?
Post by: Orange Wizard on July 15, 2015, 07:05:07 pm
Er. Anyone else have any thoughts on it?It's crap, but banana brawl was worse.
Post by: Leafsnail on July 22, 2015, 06:38:47 pm
Post by: penguinofhonor on July 22, 2015, 07:37:21 pm
Post by: Dutchling on July 22, 2015, 07:44:20 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on July 22, 2015, 07:44:39 pm
They also announced the new Argent Tournament expansion (http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/expansions-adventures/the-grand-tournament/) today.Hero Power centered, that's interesting.
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on July 22, 2015, 08:03:16 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on July 22, 2015, 08:11:12 pm
Post by: Dutchling on July 22, 2015, 08:14:33 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Orange Wizard on July 22, 2015, 08:18:26 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on July 22, 2015, 08:26:16 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on July 22, 2015, 08:47:52 pm
It's bit lot worse of course, since you get random Hunter jank, instead of stuff you actually put in your deck :PIt was actually an interesting thought as they were playing the matches, Hunters actually have very little "jank" as compared with other classes. Of the 36 cards LnL could pull, only Cobra Shot and Timber Wolf are actually still bad, along with Bestial Wrath if you don't have any beasts or pull any from LnL which is rather improbable. Everything else "bad" is in the "Well, I didn't actively want this but since it was free it's not terrible".
Re: Saraad. He has the same capacity to just outright win the game as EPORTS portal, which is huge. If you read it as a 5 mana cantrip that's just delayed a couple turns, it turns out to be roughly an azure drake with +1 health and Super Taunt, which is pretty decent. There's 190 spells or so (probably will go up to 210ish with TGT), and there's enough of them that its more than good enough to be equivalent to an average draw. Plus, again, X/186 chance to just outright win the game with any given hero power.
Post by: Leafsnail on July 22, 2015, 08:59:58 pm
Re: Saraad. He has the same capacity to just outright win the game as EPORTS portal, which is huge.It's nothing like Unstable Portal though, that can do ridiculous things because when it hits a high cost creature you get to slam it 3 turns early. This doesn't modify the cost. Occasionally you'll get a super good offclass card, but that's way less frequent and also is unlikely to win you the game singlehandedly.
If you read it as a 5 mana cantrip that's just delayed a couple turns, it turns out to be roughly an azure drake with +1 health and Super Taunt, which is pretty decent.Not really, being forced to run out something two turns later is a huge drawback. I don't think many decks want to be making a marginal value play (Azure Drake with one more health!) on turn 7 rather than trying to kill the opponent or playing Dr Boom. And I dunno if it's really "super taunt", if your opponent doesn't deal with it you just get to draw one more card at the cost of using your hero power again, that's not game-winning.
There's 190 spells or so (probably will go up to 210ish with TGT), and there's enough of them that its more than good enough to be equivalent to an average draw. Plus, again, X/186 chance to just outright win the game with any given hero power.This is bad logic. Having a lot of spells does not increase their average quality - they still range from good to bad. The cards in your deck should all be good, therefore drawing out of it is better than drawing from a random selection of cards that could be good or bad, even if that selection includes a tiny number of good off-class cards that won't even always win you the game.
Besides if getting random spells is really such a valuable effect Nefarion does it much better.
Post by: Cthulhu on July 22, 2015, 09:04:12 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on July 22, 2015, 09:15:16 pm
The reason Nefarion doesn't see much play is because at 9 drop, you're directly competing with Ysera, and dream cards are so much better than anything Nefarion can pull except SacPact it's not even funny.
Post by: Leafsnail on July 22, 2015, 09:27:22 pm
He seems particularly terrible in hunter, a 1/100 miracle combo with UTH is not worth playing a yeti on turn 7 instead of savannah highmane/doctor boom/face damage spells. Besides, if you really want to dig for an OP spell Kill Command is right there in your deck
I guess he could be playable if there's a lot of Inspire support that creates a deck, but this definitely is not a staple.
Post by: Criptfeind on July 22, 2015, 09:56:01 pm
I love the idea of totem synergy. Tuskarr totemic makes me a bit unhappy, since I think that means that the totem tribe are doomed in perpetuity to be quite small minions, and thus probably an aggressive tribe, and probably is going to somewhat lock shaman into that area as well... Maybe totem support cards can make up for it. But I somewhat doubt it.
Poor shaman. Being pulled every which way.
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on July 22, 2015, 11:23:25 pm
A win condition that's going to rely on accruing value over many turns? That doesn't seem like it's going to be a thing in hearthstone, at least not this expansion.
I love the idea of totem synergy. Tuskarr totemic makes me a bit unhappy, since I think that means that the totem tribe are doomed in perpetuity to be quite small minions, and thus probably an aggressive tribe, and probably is going to somewhat lock shaman into that area as well... Maybe totem support cards can make up for it. But I somewhat doubt it.
Poor shaman. Being pulled every which way.
Or they might just be additions as Quartermaster and Muster for arms were. Rather then making an entire tribe out of it they'll be support that is additional to helping you.
Post by: Leafsnail on July 23, 2015, 08:01:36 am
Post by: wereboar on July 23, 2015, 08:18:59 am
I'm very interested in Lock and Load.It's actually a trap. In reality it's a bad card, it will not see play.
Post by: Leafsnail on July 23, 2015, 08:22:05 am
Looking over the Hunter class card list you're just under 50% to get something that can easily proc it again, and some of the potential drops are absurd (most notably Tracking and Lock and Load).
Post by: Criptfeind on July 23, 2015, 08:31:26 am
A win condition that's going to rely on accruing value over many turns? That doesn't seem like it's going to be a thing in hearthstone, at least not this expansion.
I love the idea of totem synergy. Tuskarr totemic makes me a bit unhappy, since I think that means that the totem tribe are doomed in perpetuity to be quite small minions, and thus probably an aggressive tribe, and probably is going to somewhat lock shaman into that area as well... Maybe totem support cards can make up for it. But I somewhat doubt it.
Poor shaman. Being pulled every which way.
Or they might just be additions as Quartermaster and Muster for arms were. Rather then making an entire tribe out of it they'll be support that is additional to helping you.
Well. Yeah, that seems to be sorta the thing that is happening. But there are a lot more cards being put into it. There's at least 8 totems now, 4 of which are cards. And... at least 3 more totem support cards, minimum. So it's sorta half and half. quatermaster and muster for battle are just sorta, very minor things, you're right. I just felt that the totem tribe had the potential to be more, Totem Golem was a really good start to it actually being a real tribe.
Post by: penguinofhonor on July 23, 2015, 08:52:22 am
It seems pretty powerful, but I think the inconsistency is going to keep it from being broken.
A win condition that's going to rely on accruing value over many turns? That doesn't seem like it's going to be a thing in hearthstone, at least not this expansion.
Has Ysera stopped being good?
Post by: Leafsnail on July 23, 2015, 09:00:44 am
Post by: Criptfeind on July 23, 2015, 09:10:45 am
Has Ysera stopped being good?
Yeah.
Ysera has been too slow for quite a long time.
Also she's faster then this guy. So...
Post by: Leafsnail on July 23, 2015, 09:17:55 am
Post by: frostshotgg on July 23, 2015, 09:27:29 am
Post by: wereboar on July 23, 2015, 12:01:57 pm
I don't think it will be too hard to proc it a lot (3-4 times). Once you put in your Hunter's Mark, Tracking, Quick Shot, 3 secrets, Lock and Load, Kill Command, Unleash the Hounds and Animal Companion that's already over half your deck, and you could easily add in something like Flare or even Call Pet if you want more consistency (since 2 mana cyclers are fairly playable in combo decks anyway).Putting in useless cards like Flare or Call Pet just to proc a bad card so it does not suck too much? Good idea.
LaL doesn't grant you an extra card. It just clogs your hand and gives you a chance under certain circumstances to exchange it for a random hunter card. And you have to pay two mana too. That's just bad.
Circumstances under which you play more than one other spell with LaL are very scarce. Remember your last game as a hunter when you played two spells in one turn and still had two mana to spare. That's not feasible.
Post by: Leafsnail on July 23, 2015, 12:20:27 pm
It's similar to the storm cards in Magic: the Gathering, that are very bad if you're trying to use them fairly but completely broken if you build a deck around them.
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on July 23, 2015, 12:32:15 pm
Post by: Dutchling on July 23, 2015, 12:32:32 pm
Quote
Putting in useless cards like Flare or Call Pet just to proc a bad card so it does not suck too much? Good idea.You know what other card is useless at first glance? Preperation. It's completely useless on it's own yet completely bonkers if you're trying to do broken things. (unlike something like Innervate which is just broken by itself, no matter what deck you put it in).
And believe, Lock and Load is a very unfair card.
I'm not saying you'll definitely want to be playing Flare and Call Pet (although Flare as a 1-of sounds completely reasonably in a LaL deck) but it's still something to test out.
Post by: Leafsnail on July 23, 2015, 12:41:10 pm
I also forgot about Arcane Shot.
Post by: Dutchling on July 23, 2015, 01:09:48 pm
Seems like it would... do stuff? :P
Post by: Baneling on July 23, 2015, 01:23:50 pm
I played Mirror Entity turn 1. The other guy responded with Nozdormu. I beat him 30-0 due to ~the miracle of speed hearthstone~.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 23, 2015, 02:40:29 pm
It should also probably be like Imp-losion against enemy heroes, because really, what else are you going to do with a Ball of Spiders.
Post by: Leafsnail on July 23, 2015, 03:13:02 pm
Post by: penguinofhonor on July 23, 2015, 03:37:29 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on July 23, 2015, 05:52:57 pm
Something that's been a trend with the cards revealed so far. They're all glacially slow. Ball of spiders somehow has the dubious honor of being even slower than the former slowest card in the game, Sneed's Old Shredder, which is really goddamn impressive. Inspire as a mechanic is designed to be slow as balls, although Coldarra Drake speeds it up somewhat.
Random thought: Majordomo Mage could actually pull some really degenerate shit. Throw down ice block early, play majordomo on turn 9. Opponent kills it because it's fucking majordomo. Throw down garrison commander, push the button twice, ice block up again.
Post by: wereboar on July 23, 2015, 06:25:23 pm
LaL may not actually be a deck but the card itself is so powerful that I wouldn't be surprised if it finds one eventually.Why? LaL does not win you games. Even in ideal situation it just draws you a bunch of potentially useless cards.
Post by: Leafsnail on July 23, 2015, 07:01:56 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on July 23, 2015, 11:57:28 pm
Post by: Neonivek on July 24, 2015, 01:32:57 am
Ball of spiders isn't actually as bad of a card as a lot of people make it out to be. It's ungodly bad for tempo, but in terms of value it's excellent. 3 mana is the cost of 3 individual webspinners, and 3 mana is +1 card advantage, and it's +2 card advantage, granted the cards can be relatively poor value, but when you're out of gas, anything to spend mana crystals on is good. The issue is that if you play it you're spending 6 mana for 3/3 of stats in a horrifically bad stat distribution.
Some cards I feel get a bad reputation because I feel like there is a good deck for them.
Post by: Orange Wizard on July 24, 2015, 03:25:30 am
Some cards I feel get a bad reputation because I feel like there is a good deck for them.What?
Do you mean that you feel there's a good deck for some cards, despite a bad reputation, or have I completely failed to parse that correctly?
Post by: Neonivek on July 24, 2015, 04:13:42 am
Post by: Leafsnail on July 24, 2015, 04:38:04 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on July 24, 2015, 05:10:49 am
Some cards seem just flat out "Generally bad" but I feel like in the right deck they go from bad to ok or good.Well, yeah. If you design a deck around a generally bad card, then the card is of course going to perform less badly.
The issue then is that you've designed a deck around a generally bad card.
It's the same logic that says Young Dragonhawk isn't bad because you can combo it with Tundra Rhino and Bestial Wrath.
Post by: Cheeetar on July 24, 2015, 05:22:38 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on July 24, 2015, 05:29:48 am
Post by: Cthulhu on July 24, 2015, 06:11:52 am
Post by: Neonivek on July 24, 2015, 06:50:58 am
Some cards seem just flat out "Generally bad" but I feel like in the right deck they go from bad to ok or good.Well, yeah. If you design a deck around a generally bad card, then the card is of course going to perform less badly.
The issue then is that you've designed a deck around a generally bad card.
It's the same logic that says Young Dragonhawk isn't bad because you can combo it with Tundra Rhino and Bestial Wrath.
Well no...
I mean for example there are beast cards that are "not as good" as non-beast cards... but put it in a beast deck and suddenly they do very well.
Post by: kilakan on July 24, 2015, 07:20:37 am
basically this is a ptw cause I really don't know enough about the game to say much more ha
Post by: Criptfeind on July 24, 2015, 07:55:33 am
Seems a lot worse than Shieldmaiden in control warrior. Not sure who else could use this, maybe insanely slow paladins.
If the insanely slow paladin returns to the meta game I'm going to dust my whole collection to make it.
This is my time baby.
Suck to be anyone else trying to break though that much armor though. You're all going to be shit outa luck.
(That said, I'm not sure if a class that can't go above 30 hp is ever going to be able to be super slow anymore, just as the combos get so powerful.)
Post by: frostshotgg on July 24, 2015, 12:42:57 pm
TRIFLING GNOME
6 mana 4/4. "Cards your draw with your hero power cost 0."
Hidden card text: "Your opponent can only draw cards that cost 6 or more with his hero power, and you can only draw Flame Imps"
Post by: Leafsnail on July 24, 2015, 12:54:33 pm
Well, yeah. If you design a deck around a generally bad card, then the card is of course going to perform less badly.Grim Patron would be a good example of a card that's very powerful if you build around it.
The issue then is that you've designed a deck around a generally bad card.
It's the same logic that says Young Dragonhawk isn't bad because you can combo it with Tundra Rhino and Bestial Wrath.
I don't think Preparation is that good an example because it is Literally Black Lotus
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on July 24, 2015, 04:42:25 pm
More cards revealed, including the new Warlock Legendary WILDFRED FIZZLEBANG! MASTER SUMMONER!
(http://i.imgur.com/diGRIe5.png)
Post by: Orange Wizard on July 24, 2015, 05:26:16 pm
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on July 24, 2015, 05:29:42 pm
Now all we need are legendaries that let you use your hero power multiple times, make the hero power cot 0, and negate the damage from using it.
There's already a neutral that lets you use your hero power twice, there's a legendary that makes the hero power do no damage for warlocks, though none that lets it cost 0, though there is a neutral that makes it cost 1.
Post by: Orange Wizard on July 24, 2015, 05:47:15 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on July 24, 2015, 05:49:24 pm
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on July 24, 2015, 06:03:03 pm
I guess ten free cards per turn is acceptable, then.
Not to mention it's impossible as the neutral only allows you to draw twice per turn regardless. There's an unlimited use card but it's mage specific.
http://www.hearthpwn.com/
Post by: Orange Wizard on July 24, 2015, 06:37:25 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on July 24, 2015, 07:59:19 pm
Post by: Skyrunner on July 24, 2015, 08:24:29 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on July 24, 2015, 10:26:28 pm
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on July 24, 2015, 10:28:08 pm
Interesting. A few more cards have been announced, but the one that's most intriguing to me is a 9 mana 9/7 Deal 4 damage. It's like a bigger, shittier fire elemental, and that's pretty cool. It's also common, so it'll be the first common big drop that actually does something when you play it. Fun.
Seems like a decent arena common
Post by: Leafsnail on July 25, 2015, 06:52:40 am
Post by: Criptfeind on July 25, 2015, 07:36:01 am
Post by: Leafsnail on July 25, 2015, 01:21:55 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on July 25, 2015, 01:26:42 pm
Post by: Dutchling on July 25, 2015, 01:33:30 pm
I mean, Boulderfist Ogre is probably just better most of the time, but it's nice to have options.
Post by: Criptfeind on July 27, 2015, 08:58:20 pm
Coliseum Manager
Is it's inspire effect suppose to be a drawback for having the as yet unseen (in non class cards) but not over budgeted 2/5 for 3, or is is suppose to be some type of... Thing you want to do? Questing adventure synergy? Late game zoo overruning the meta? the answer to our question of "what can we do to make the grim patron deck worse voluntarily?"
Power overwhelming. Saving your minion from freeze mage. Killing an infinity amount of small things in the top deck wars. So much value.
Really, this card is mvp of TGT
Post by: frostshotgg on July 27, 2015, 10:32:03 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on July 28, 2015, 10:58:39 am
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on July 28, 2015, 12:04:01 pm
Post by: Dutchling on July 28, 2015, 01:40:38 pm
It's also the format where his stats are actually relevant, so we'll see how good/useless he turns out.
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on July 28, 2015, 02:46:09 pm
Arena is the format where you generally rely the most on your hero power though, since your curve tends to be really wonky.
It's also the format where his stats are actually relevant, so we'll see how good/useless he turns out.
It's where druid uses that 2/5, 5/2, so I suppose it's got some value.
Post by: Leafsnail on July 28, 2015, 03:16:11 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on July 28, 2015, 03:28:32 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on July 28, 2015, 03:31:27 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on July 29, 2015, 05:58:06 pm
Thoughts so far... I think I might have liked the spider one more. Although it's not awful, it's pretty coin flippy, and if there's a strategy other then to hope for ether lots of little things or a lucky curve I've not found it yet.
Post by: Teneb on July 29, 2015, 06:16:52 pm
New brawl. It's the portal brawl we all knew was coming eventually.The only strategy about it is picking the class due to the spells. Priest is handy for all the removal, I've found. The spells tend to be the same for the deck no matter the match.
Thoughts so far... I think I might have liked the spider one more. Although it's not awful, it's pretty coin flippy, and if there's a strategy other then to hope for ether lots of little things or a lucky curve I've not found it yet.
Post by: Leafsnail on July 29, 2015, 07:59:45 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on July 29, 2015, 08:33:59 pm
Fjola Lightbane
3 mana
3/4
Whenever you target this minion with a spell, gain Divine Shield.
Eydis Darkbane
3 mana
3/4
Whenever you target this minion with a spell, deal 3 damage to a random enemy.
Post by: TherosPherae on July 29, 2015, 08:49:40 pm
Fjola seems a lot worse, although there is some combo potential with spare parts, Blood Knight, and Hand of Protection (:P). It reminds me of Cobalt Guardian, but a bit harder to activate in exchange for a reasonable statline for its mana cost.
Post by: frostshotgg on July 29, 2015, 08:55:38 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on July 29, 2015, 09:09:35 pm
Well... Actually priests has had a few pickups I think thus far... Maybe we'll see a mid range priest that's proactive instead of reactive soon.
Post by: Teneb on July 29, 2015, 09:13:17 pm
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on July 29, 2015, 09:20:05 pm
Post by: penguinofhonor on July 30, 2015, 07:49:14 am
edit: oh my god I got my first win in the new Tavern brawl because a Warlock used his hero power with Prophet Velen out and took 4 damage. He put himself at lethal.
Post by: Leafsnail on July 30, 2015, 12:01:19 pm
Also Trump revealed a new card on his stream.
http://i.imgur.com/Bqv5PNk.png
The stats aren't very exciting, but it does combo very well with cards like Blessing of Kings.
Post by: Dutchling on July 30, 2015, 12:33:57 pm
Also Donald "I'm starting to wonder myself whether he was born in this country" Trump revealed a new card on his stream.This extension might not be working entirely as planned.
Post by: Leafsnail on July 30, 2015, 12:41:57 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on July 30, 2015, 12:52:12 pm
Post by: Dutchling on July 30, 2015, 12:53:38 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: frostshotgg on July 31, 2015, 01:34:04 am
3 mana 3/4 (Interesting how this is becoming the standard) common
Spellslinger: Battlecry: Add a random spell to each player's hand.
Run this with 2x Esports portal and Blingtron to get every card in the game.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 31, 2015, 02:04:25 am
edit: oh my god I got my first win in the new Tavern brawl because a Warlock used his hero power with Prophet Velen out and took 4 damage. He put himself at lethal.
EDIT: Ah, it specifies damage and healing. I'd expect it to work that way anyway, but it does explicitly say.
Post by: EvilTwin on July 31, 2015, 11:09:25 am
Post by: PanH on July 31, 2015, 12:36:29 pm
Though, I think the worst spell is Shaman's Farsight. Enjoy drawing that portal.
Post by: Wiles on July 31, 2015, 01:55:42 pm
Post by: Teneb on July 31, 2015, 02:20:57 pm
Post by: PanH on July 31, 2015, 02:45:06 pm
Priest is really good, as is mage. I think the other classes are in between.
Also, the spells are completely random, so sometimes you'll get something good, sometimes something awful. Mage is more consistent with that.
Post by: penguinofhonor on July 31, 2015, 03:00:45 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on August 01, 2015, 01:46:37 am
Post by: Neonivek on August 01, 2015, 10:24:08 am
Priests get Mind Games and the hero power is unreliable. I think Mage probably just has the best selection of spells, but there's not much in it.
Well I wouldn't say the Mage has the best selection of spells.
Though certainly so when it comes to just dealing lots of raw damage.
Post by: PanH on August 01, 2015, 02:28:11 pm
Considering a deck which is not built, I'm pretty sure Mage has the best spells. That's why it's the best class in Arena.Priests get Mind Games and the hero power is unreliable. I think Mage probably just has the best selection of spells, but there's not much in it.
Well I wouldn't say the Mage has the best selection of spells.
Though certainly so when it comes to just dealing lots of raw damage.
Post by: Neonivek on August 01, 2015, 02:29:52 pm
Post by: PanH on August 01, 2015, 03:12:56 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on August 01, 2015, 05:27:42 pm
Post by: Orange Wizard on August 01, 2015, 05:40:05 pm
"Best" Implies the mage has the best spells for all situations.Name one situation a mage spell (or two) couldn't solve.
Post by: Criptfeind on August 01, 2015, 07:37:20 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on August 01, 2015, 07:45:23 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on August 01, 2015, 10:04:30 pm
Also I'm not sure if I'd call 5 health super fat.
Post by: IronyOwl on August 01, 2015, 11:10:05 pm
Assuming that's all actually in the Brawl deck, if we're talking about that specifically.
Post by: Wiles on August 05, 2015, 10:03:43 am
http://www.hearthpwn.com/news/968-new-card-reveals-from-gamescom-new-mechanic-joust
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on August 05, 2015, 10:06:59 am
Post by: Dutchling on August 05, 2015, 10:46:02 am
Post by: frostshotgg on August 05, 2015, 11:37:51 am
Post by: Dutchling on August 05, 2015, 12:00:45 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
:P
Post by: Wiles on August 05, 2015, 12:41:39 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on August 05, 2015, 01:08:31 pm
Post by: Dutchling on August 05, 2015, 01:12:56 pm
Post by: tryrar on August 05, 2015, 01:42:19 pm
Post by: Dutchling on August 05, 2015, 01:44:43 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on August 05, 2015, 03:01:46 pm
Release the Ants + Enter the Infinite got ousted by Dig Through Time sadly.You still run one in the board so you can Cunning Wish for Firemind's Foresight which finds Brainstorm, Impulse and Cunning Wish which help find and put Emrakul on top so you can Cunning Wish for Release the Ants to kill them.
Somehow this is not a joke
Post by: frostshotgg on August 05, 2015, 03:07:40 pm
What kind of ungodly draw effects do you have in your deck that you play this and still have a hand full of fatties :P?Ancients of Lore.
Post by: Skyrunner on August 10, 2015, 03:01:03 am
First rage tell :<
Funny part is he almost lost (he had 4 HP left). I really hate handlock. The only time I beat it was when they only could taunt up one molten giant and I had an ironbeak in hand.
Post by: Leafsnail on August 10, 2015, 06:47:07 am
Post by: Orange Wizard on August 10, 2015, 07:02:43 am
Post by: Skyrunner on August 10, 2015, 09:08:34 am
Wait they rage-added you after winning?
Yep.
Post by: Criptfeind on August 10, 2015, 11:00:33 am
Post by: PanH on August 10, 2015, 11:45:58 am
Why are handlocks always the saltiest?It's a thing with people who main control. My friend play mostly druid control, mage tempo, etc, and he gets pissed off every time there's a aggro against him, and say they're unskilled.
I mean, sure, facehunter is more straightforward than most decks, but I still dont understand all that rage.
Post by: frostshotgg on August 10, 2015, 12:44:45 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on August 16, 2015, 09:58:59 pm
But dat mulch yo. Finally good druid removal. There goes... Probably their biggest weakness. Lord, at this rate they might actually get a good aoe next expansion. How terrifying.
Post by: Nirur Torir on August 20, 2015, 05:03:19 pm
The brawl seems like a flop, as the decks feel too weak. The mage gets some interesting combos (cheaper/more frequent hero powers, and inspire to gain a 3/5 or a random spell), but they take multiple turns to set-up. The ranger gets a bunch of control, mostly from cards we already had. The deck's joust cards aren't powerful enough, and with this deck, not reliable enough, to leave me wanting more.
Post by: Dutchling on August 23, 2015, 01:32:11 pm
Speaking of Joust cards, I'm very excited about this one:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Neonivek on August 23, 2015, 03:53:19 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on August 23, 2015, 04:24:03 pm
Post by: Neonivek on August 23, 2015, 04:25:25 pm
Generally, the formula for an ideal is attack + health = manacost x2 +1. There are some outliers, generally with downsides or high manacosts where you're playing them for the text.
I mean linking the summon to its power :P
Weak pathetic monster = 4/4 :P
Post by: Orange Wizard on August 23, 2015, 04:28:53 pm
There just seems to be flat out no heads or tales.I have no idea what this is supposed to mean
Weak pathetic monster = 4/4 :PNothing wrong with a 4/4. The important thing there is cost - a 4/4 for 4 is shit, but give it Charge and suddenly it's a good card.
Post by: Teneb on August 23, 2015, 04:35:35 pm
A 4/4 is great against priests because suddenly their removal is useless. Further, I doubt a shaman or mage would be willing to use hex/polymorph to get rid of it. Of course, there are better options than a 4/4 for 4. The yeti is a 4/5 for 4, if you want an example.There just seems to be flat out no heads or tales.I have no idea what this is supposed to meanWeak pathetic monster = 4/4 :PNothing wrong with a 4/4. The important thing there is cost - a 4/4 for 4 is shit, but give it Charge and suddenly it's a good card.
Post by: sambojin on August 23, 2015, 04:36:01 pm
It's not really random, it just depends on lots of things.
You'd need a more finely graded mana system to really balance them all. If you got 10 mana per crystal, and things could cost 35 or 26 mana, then there'd be a lot more interesting choices to be made. But having those both cost 3 makes some choices pretty obvious in terms of power, regardless of deck/character being played, with no fine tuning available for balancing things later.
Post by: frostshotgg on August 23, 2015, 04:37:20 pm
I mean linking the summon to its power :PThere's a reason mana cost was a part of that formula. a 2 mana 4/4 is fantastic, which is why Millhouse Manastorm has a game losing downside. A 5 mana 4/4 is unplayable without an huge upside, like charge or +2 health and taunt.
Weak pathetic monster = 4/4 :P
Also, 4 health is bad. Shredder kills it. If it has 4 health, costs 4 or more, and doesn't do something impactful when you slam it it's unplayable. The end.
Post by: Leafsnail on August 23, 2015, 05:48:28 pm
Really the stats in games like this will never make sense if you think about them. "Here is the most powerful of all dragons, Deathwing. He is as strong as 12 chickens."
Post by: Neonivek on August 23, 2015, 06:26:22 pm
An Ordinary person is a 0/1, a soldier is a 1/1, a large animal is a 2/2, and a huge animal is a 3/3
Power and defense are somewhat related.
Post by: Leafsnail on August 23, 2015, 06:41:59 pm
Post by: penguinofhonor on August 24, 2015, 07:12:47 am
Hearthstone can't do things like that because they're mainly reusing WoW TCG art. I wonder what changes will happen once they start commissioning a lot of new art. That's still a while off though.
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on August 24, 2015, 08:46:37 am
Post by: frostshotgg on August 24, 2015, 12:55:12 pm
Post by: Orange Wizard on August 24, 2015, 04:21:47 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on August 24, 2015, 10:31:38 pm
Welp.
Post by: penguinofhonor on August 25, 2015, 07:48:51 am
Post by: PanH on August 25, 2015, 09:00:07 pm
So far, I've tried a few of the inspire minions : I love Mukla's Champion in a deck with many minions (paladin especially, since it'll buff the recruit too). The one invoking recruit is fun (have it in arena, and it's quite useful). I used the Murloc one (paladin) and it's fun, but I'm not sure it's enough to make a Murloc Paladin deck. Will have to test when I have more Murlocs (missing the codlight and the warleader).
The Watchman is really good in Arena (mage especially), it's a 2/4 for 2 that just needs Inspire to attack.
Now, I want to test when you have some combos of them, like the Recruit one + Mukla. It can put some nice presence on the board.
And I got no legendaries in my packs :( but I got 5 times the captured jormungar (or something like that). Though I got Rhonin in Arena (was either that or Fjola or Rend, and I'm a Mage with no dragon). I'm not sure it's that good unless you have some spell damage (Dr. Boom seems better and costs only 7 mana instead of 8).
Post by: frostshotgg on August 25, 2015, 09:24:51 pm
But seriously though, fucking Murloc Knight.
Post by: Leafsnail on August 25, 2015, 09:41:53 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on August 26, 2015, 08:15:31 pm
Post by: Wiles on August 31, 2015, 11:26:48 am
Post by: Criptfeind on September 02, 2015, 07:36:25 pm
Meh.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 02, 2015, 11:36:43 pm
e: if you can't get there then rank 15 is the other breakpoint.
Post by: Orange Wizard on September 03, 2015, 02:49:05 am
Post by: Rex_Nex on September 03, 2015, 03:06:13 am
Post by: frostshotgg on September 03, 2015, 07:39:08 am
Post by: Leafsnail on September 03, 2015, 12:36:29 pm
Post by: wereboar on September 03, 2015, 12:45:29 pm
What about those of us who can't get to rank 15?You can get to at least rank 10 with a dirt cheap face hunter deck.
Another cheap option is mech mage. Although it does have expensive cards in most builds, it works surprisingly well without.
Post by: Orange Wizard on September 04, 2015, 01:09:25 am
Yeah, but that requires effort.What about those of us who can't get to rank 15?You can get to at least rank 10 with a dirt cheap face hunter deck.
Another cheap option is mech mage. Although it does have expensive cards in most builds, it works surprisingly well without.
All I want is the results. Is that so unreasonable?
Post by: Criptfeind on September 09, 2015, 12:36:33 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on September 09, 2015, 01:58:32 pm
Post by: LASD on September 09, 2015, 03:23:08 pm
Post by: LASD on September 09, 2015, 03:23:25 pm
Well, to make use of this double post I'll ramble about things I've thought about Hearthstone lately. After reading too much of Mark Rosewater's (Magic: The Gathering lead designer) articles, I started wondering if Hearthstone has similar philosophies with classes as Magic has with it's colors. Are there things that certain classes are not allowed to do or things that they do way more than others. And is there an overarching idea about the class reflected on the cards.
I've broken down the Warrior this far and it seems like his idea is this:
The Warrior knows that he fights so recklessly that he's likely to take as much damage as the opponent when he goes in. To make sure that he comes out on top, he buffs himself up beforehand to survive the inevitable reckless charge.
Post by: Neonivek on September 09, 2015, 03:34:15 pm
But their monster base is the same.
So... no... Hearthstone doesn't really follow the magic the gathering philosophy... because while the colors certainly have gimmicks... They are overarching ones that flow right into their cards, costs, and what they do.
Post by: penguinofhonor on September 10, 2015, 06:54:31 am
Right now it's harder to tell how classes are defined because not every class has fully explored the effects it gets. I thought Shaman was supposed to be bad at healing, but TGT comes out and they get a really powerful healing spell. I'm afraid things like this might make the classes less distinct as we pile on hundreds and hundreds more cards, but I'm sure Blizzard has their eye on that.
Post by: frostshotgg on September 10, 2015, 08:42:16 am
Like penguinofhonor said, Mage gets the most premium spells and awkward play-forcing tools. Thematically, it casts spells which make the boardstate difficult to gain an advantage on for your opponent, and then slowly chips an opponent down until it can finish them with cards like fireball or pyroblast.
Priest has health manipulation tools, high face damage spells, and sneaky stealing everything you do for whatever reason. Thematically, it has high health minions which it plays and then trades and heals in order to get board control as well as taking all of the enemy's stuff from them.
Druid has high quality minions, mana advantage cards, and proactive actions, but horrible reactive action (AoE, single target removal, etc). Thematically, it plays cards which give it extra mana to play expensive, high flexibility cards which allow it to control the board through tempo, until it hits the late game and just overruns the enemy through having a heavier mana curve deck.
Warlock has mediocre class cards except for powerful demons due to having the best hero power by a mile, but has the best board wipe options. Thematically, it abuses its ability to draw cards freely to gain a significant amount of card advantage and overwhelm the opponent with having more cards to throw at them, while slowly killing itself.
Hunter has generally cheap damage, and beast synergy cards. Thematically, it tries to aggressively force unfavorable trades for the opponent by abusing their health pool directly and killing them before you run out of cards to throw at them, while extending later into the game with powerful beasts and beast-support cards.
Warrior has self-healing galore, weapons to encourage hitting stuff with your face, chip damage aoes and charging stuff. Thematically, it armors up and directly face-tanks opponent minions with constant weapons, following up with charging minions into the opponent's face to finish them off, catching up on the board by killing everything together.
Rogue has incredibly efficient cheap removal, returning cards to hand, and insane weapon manipulation tools. Thematically, it plays many cards together to combo them and go from unwinnable board states to unloseable, very rapidly.
Shaman has cards which are insanely powerful in a vacuum but synergize poorly at best, and ridiculous amounts of spell burst. Thematically, it plays incredibly high quality cards ahead of time with overload and gaining tempo which they coast into victory with several unexpected spells doing an absurd amount of damage from hand.
Paladin has token spam, minion buffs, and reactive healing. Thematically, it plays a bunch of small minions and then makes them stronger, while protecting them with spells and hitting opposing minoins, and healing off the damage.
Post by: Neonivek on September 14, 2015, 08:57:44 am
Post by: Criptfeind on September 14, 2015, 09:06:10 am
Ether way it's probably not cannon, although if it was a card game I guess it could be.
Post by: frostshotgg on September 14, 2015, 10:58:17 am
Post by: Neonivek on September 14, 2015, 12:41:48 pm
Yeah. It's canon in warcraft lore as a cardgame that's played at inns and taverns. So basically we, the players, are warcraft characters who are resting at an inn for whatever reason and play the game to kill time.
Well... while that is interesting
I meant that the cards are all real. Like the characters on the cards were people who were alive and lived.
Post by: Dutchling on September 14, 2015, 01:00:37 pm
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on September 14, 2015, 01:37:13 pm
I am starting to wonder if Hearthstone is canonical to Warcraft...
Rexxar references it as something he plays in his offtime in heroes of the storm (In his angry poke quotes). So basically I prefer the "They are actors" sort of thing.
Post by: penguinofhonor on September 14, 2015, 02:06:16 pm
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on September 14, 2015, 02:44:12 pm
I know Gul'Dan is dead in Warcraft but not Hearthstone. I think it exists outside the timeline, where they can pull concepts they want from any part of WoW lore.
He's actually alive again due to that whole timeline thing thanks to the Bronze dragonflight.
Post by: Neonivek on September 14, 2015, 03:09:19 pm
I know Gul'Dan is dead in Warcraft but not Hearthstone. I think it exists outside the timeline, where they can pull concepts they want from any part of WoW lore.
He's actually alive again due to that whole timeline thing thanks to the Bronze dragonflight.
Ahh yes I forgot how insanely messed up the whole Warcraft canon is now thanks to World of Warcraft.
Post by: PanH on September 14, 2015, 03:14:10 pm
Post by: Dutchling on September 14, 2015, 03:31:14 pm
Quote
Warcraft canon
Quote
World of Warcraft
choose one
Post by: frostshotgg on September 14, 2015, 03:40:28 pm
Post by: Neonivek on September 14, 2015, 05:16:18 pm
QuoteWarcraft canonQuoteWorld of Warcraft
choose one
Unfortunately... to my knowledge they have yet to state that WoW is running off a different continuity.
Post by: Orange Wizard on September 14, 2015, 05:37:01 pm
Post by: penguinofhonor on September 14, 2015, 05:52:24 pm
The heroes you're playing aren't actually necessarily alive for Hearthstone. They're all abstractions for the card game. It's not the heroes themselves, it's whatever random Warcraft character who's playing the card game, who build a deck with a given class and then each class has a representative character that would be known to everybody inhabiting the Warcraft world.
I don't know, look at the Magni Bronzebeard teaser. (http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/19534827/the-innkeepers-tale-a-mysterious-patron-6-3-2015) Specifically this section:
Quote
An imposing, broad-shouldered figure lingered at the door. Patrons squinted, their eyes adjusting to the light as they tried to make out the newcomer. Hesitation brought with it a mild tension as for a brief moment, no one moved or spoke.
The innkeeper’s warm, hearty laugh echoed throughout the common room as he gestured the newcomer inside, breaking the sudden silence. The patrons laughed along with his infectious guffaw. Mugs were hefted high, and cries of challenge were shouted, clamoring to be heard.
To me, that says Magni Bronzebeard himself walked into the inn in the Hearthstone "story", and the heroes we can choose from all hang out there and play together.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 14, 2015, 07:05:15 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Orange Wizard on September 14, 2015, 09:11:59 pm
How is it not considered canon? It's the biggest game in the series.Not the same canon as the Warcraft games, I thought. Although I might just be talking out of my arse.
Post by: penguinofhonor on September 14, 2015, 09:29:42 pm
Huh, I forgot about those. So they portray the game one way in images and another way in writing? We may already have two separate Hearthstone canons.
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on September 14, 2015, 11:07:44 pm
I know Warcraft has a separate canon that includes the books. It wouldn't surprise me if there were a couple other canons, it seems convoluted enough to warrant it.
Huh, I forgot about those. So they portray the game one way in images and another way in writing? We may already have two separate Hearthstone canons.
It's not a separate canon, it's all one long storyline, Warcraft the video games, though some were superseded by updates in book form, World of Warcraft is not "Separate Canon"
Same with the Hearthstone, there's no two canons, it really is just one and you are overcomplicating it.
Post by: Orange Wizard on September 14, 2015, 11:18:39 pm
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on September 15, 2015, 12:16:26 am
It's not separate so much as inconsistent. Stuff happens differently in the RTSs vs the books vs WoW vs Hearthstone. Probably just that Blizzard doesn't really care/is trolling us, all things considered.
Not really, they used the books to expand out the content of the RTS, because Warcraft 1 and 2 are both vastly different in how things came to be and ended up different compared to the later things, as a result they typically took parts of the games (or entirely in the case of Warcraft 2), and made it a book series to expand upon the content, they did this with starcraft as well using the book series to expand upon content and add additional stories. Characters from the books ended up in World of Warcraft and generally made connections to the old stories that they came from at times.
Hearthstone is in it's own little non-serious continuity, and isn't part of the same timeline as the "Main" series.
Post by: Skyrunner on September 15, 2015, 02:25:57 am
It is fairly amusing!
Post by: penguinofhonor on September 15, 2015, 10:51:50 am
To me it looks pretty similar to Star Trek or Magic the Gathering or any other franchise big enough to have mediocre books based on it - there isn't an official separation, but you have to take anything the books say with a grain of salt because the creators frequently ignore/contradict all but the biggest plot elements. That contributes to most people ignoring the books and two very different perceptions of canon forming. But I'll admit this might not be the case with WoW lore and I could just be misinterpreting how Blizzard and the fans handle it.
And the "two Hearthstone canons" comment was not serious.
Post by: Criptfeind on September 15, 2015, 10:55:12 am
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on September 15, 2015, 11:04:27 am
You say the book canon isn't separate, but whenever I look at WoW lore I see book-reliant information stuck in its own section with a little disclaimer so you know to take it less seriously.
To me it looks pretty similar to Star Trek or Magic the Gathering or any other franchise big enough to have mediocre books based on it - there isn't an official separation, but you have to take anything the books say with a grain of salt because the creators frequently ignore/contradict all but the biggest plot elements. That contributes to most people ignoring the books and two very different perceptions of canon forming. But I'll admit this might not be the case with WoW lore and I could just be misinterpreting how Blizzard and the fans handle it.
And the "two Hearthstone canons" comment was not serious.
The problem is that Blizzard doesn't do this, they've done it with Starcraft 2 where many of the newer characters comes from the Book Series (Explaining Tychus history with Raynor, Jimmy's Crew, some of the newer characters histories are never explained ingame but they have been in the book series that came out beforehand). While characters in World of Warcraft have come from the book series (Rhonin was a prominent example) and major plot's have been resolved through the book series (Want to know how the whole Time Travel thing really went down with Garrosh for example? Was done in the books! Or how he convinced Grommash? In the books/comic!) The thing about Blizzard is that many of the writers of the books are those who also tend to work with Blizzards other works at times, so they can keep it more inhouse.
Also while Star Trek does as you say, MTG does keep it's books canon actually, they just don't tend to matter because of the medium too much. You probably should've stated "Star Wars and Star Trek's Expanded universe".
Not a big fan of this approach too much myself, sure it adds alot more detail, but I was literally blind as to who the heck the crew was in Starcraft 2 because there was barely any information on them ingame.
Post by: Neonivek on September 15, 2015, 11:23:25 am
Quote
MTG does keep it's books canon actually, they just don't tend to matter because of the medium too much
Yeah that is basically it.
Post by: Criptfeind on September 16, 2015, 02:25:53 pm
Post by: cerapa on September 16, 2015, 05:08:57 pm
At least if you managed to catch it at the right time, like I did.
How do they keep messing this up? Do the spend the intervening days twiddling their thumbs, and then on the hour of the start, some dude is tasked with pressing the button that makes it start, but the dude fell asleep and his pet monkey did it instead. Or maybe he rolled a die, and it rolled behind his desk, so he put a random one on. Or maybe it's a weird sort of office prank where the bosses tell every person that a different brawl is happening.
Post by: penguinofhonor on September 17, 2015, 05:11:51 pm
I mean, I know Magic's books are officially canon. I've just seen enough people complaining about stuff getting retconned or ignored that I've gotten the impression anything but the biggest plot points in the books should be taken less seriously than what's on the cards or the short stories on their site.
I think this is mostly due to the books being written by freelancers and edited poorly - it makes sense that Blizzard's lore is more consistent if they write everything in-house. MtG has shifted to that recently and they are much better off for it.
Also there actually is kind of a separate MtG canon - the absolute earliest Magic books are considered "prerevision" and basically get ignored by everyone (though I think stuff that hasn't been contradicted is still technically canon?). It's not what I was referring to though.
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on September 17, 2015, 06:13:30 pm
Also there's so many new fun deck types coming out, though trying to get a good totem deck down.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 17, 2015, 08:31:32 pm
Post by: Neonivek on September 17, 2015, 10:13:20 pm
Yeah I have a strong suspicion WotC don't care very much about the books that no-one reads. EG apparently Nissa was like the Elf equivalent of Hitler before they brought her onto the good guy team.
Good and evil is very... flux in the MtG universe... even at the best of time.
Then again that has more to do with that with few exceptions all the characters have motivations that aren't "be evil" and so it is easy to pull together even the most "evilish" characters.
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on September 17, 2015, 10:19:52 pm
And Nissa still had a vast hatred of Vampires to the point of screwing over Sorin's plan over the Eldrazi...And no she wasn't Elf Hitler, though the Joraga tribe were pretty much bigots, and the story does show they and her were pretty bad at one point, though she's at least willing to fight, and nobody really cares about her past considering the bigger threat (considering some of the people on team good right now..)
Characters are pretty complicated instead of black and white good in MTG, most of the time.
Post by: Neyvn on September 18, 2015, 09:45:13 am
So off I went to the app store, downloading the game on Wifi to not drain my Datausage. Happily running through the tutorial missions all the way through to the end...
"YEAH! I would totally love to keep playing," I said to myself again as I clicked to make an account, "Oh whats this, Oh yeah I already have an account attached to my email from when I foolishly tried out WoW ages ago. I guess I will just use that then..."
Ever since, every time I try to open the app. I stare at the Inn Doors before it throws me to the 'Create an Account' screen, each time I scroll down and click 'I have an account' and sign in. ONLY TO LOOK AT THE DAMN WEBSITE EVERY TIME!!!!
Wtf is going on here guys, I just can't seem to get around this odd thing happening to me, heck I even went and cleaned up all the security shit that it kept throwing at me, yet I still can't even log into the F-ing game...
Post by: Criptfeind on September 18, 2015, 12:22:57 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Don't see a 9x combo VanCleef very often.
Post by: Dutchling on September 18, 2015, 01:06:01 pm
Have you tried not encountering any problems with it?
Post by: Donuts on September 18, 2015, 01:39:33 pm
Post by: Neyvn on September 18, 2015, 01:50:21 pm
I can play on my Samsung just fine.Is it just me or did that just sound dickish. Kinda sounded dickish to me...
Have you tried not encountering any problems with it?
Post by: Orange Wizard on September 18, 2015, 06:26:31 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on September 18, 2015, 09:14:13 pm
Pretty sure he was joking.I can play on my Samsung just fine.Is it just me or did that just sound dickish. Kinda sounded dickish to me...
Have you tried not encountering any problems with it?
Other than reinstalling, I have no idea either.
Post by: Donuts on September 18, 2015, 10:36:08 pm
Just had a game against someone playing a murlock paladin. He had two murlock knights and a warleader on the board. Used his hero power and summoned two Old Murk Eyes. I just. Hnnng.Murlockadin is a force to be reckoned with.
Post by: Orange Wizard on September 18, 2015, 10:57:47 pm
It's evil. I want one.Just had a game against someone playing a murlock paladin. He had two murlock knights and a warleader on the board. Used his hero power and summoned two Old Murk Eyes. I just. Hnnng.Murlockadin is a force to be reckoned with.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 19, 2015, 10:31:40 am
Post by: PanH on September 19, 2015, 11:16:36 am
Post by: Criptfeind on September 20, 2015, 08:50:51 am
Post by: Criptfeind on September 23, 2015, 06:02:10 pm
As one might expect, lots of handlocks and freeze mages about. Since both those decks are weak to face hunter though, that's what I used (despite the incompatibility with the effect) to get my win pretty quickly.
I also saw what looks like a tempo self damage warlock, which is a cool idea. Not sure how well it works, since he lost super quickly, and there probably are not enough cards to support it.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 23, 2015, 06:36:26 pm
Post by: Skyrunner on September 24, 2015, 10:01:32 am
Post by: Criptfeind on September 30, 2015, 02:06:50 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on October 09, 2015, 07:55:10 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on October 09, 2015, 08:34:26 pm
With that said, Druid can shieldbearer > loot hoarder > acolyte > communion > nourish > endless big guys and live the dream.
Post by: Orange Wizard on October 09, 2015, 10:32:40 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on October 14, 2015, 11:46:58 pm
It's just. Wayyyyy too random for me to like. But I guess if you got quests or something it's one of those that are good for some wins.
Post by: frostshotgg on October 15, 2015, 08:28:28 am
Post by: Criptfeind on October 15, 2015, 09:25:12 am
All my experience thus far with and against secret paladin makes it feel like mech mage power level. Super powerful when it first came out, but in three months from now we're going to wonder how we ever though it was unbeatable. It just seems to fold pretty hard against anyone who can actually contest it's board control... At least when it doesn't have perfect draws (pretty much nothing much beats a paladin with perfect draws of course), which is pretty rare for it.
So I'm pretty hopeful for the upcoming meta.
Edit: Also it reminds me of mill rogue in the sense that it needs to draw certain cards within a certain timeframe or it flops hard. Although it feels a bit more resilient then that, so I doubt it'll be as bad a deck as that turned out to be.
Post by: frostshotgg on October 15, 2015, 11:22:15 am
Now with no Patron to loom and menace aggro decks, basically the only thing that consistently beats it are the various mage decks, particularly mech mage. And so the cycle of aggro continues.
Post by: Criptfeind on October 15, 2015, 12:02:22 pm
I mean, of course that could all be bollocks, but that's just my experience with them, as a person who primarily plays a midrange style, they've always felt like they give up just a bit too much of the power in their deck to make their turn sixes so good.
Edit: That's not to say it won't be an aggro meta for a little bit at least. Decks like face hunter and mysterious challenger always get the best showing at the start of a new meta when the decks all suck. But in a few months when people are more used to it, I'll just go out and a limb and predict that secretdin has a fall. If not from tier one, at least from a assured first spot (where it looks to be for now at least)
Post by: frostshotgg on October 15, 2015, 01:48:59 pm
- Baby undertaker
- Shielded Minibot
- Divine Favor
- Mustard
- Dr. 6
- Divine Favor
- Tirion Fordring
- Fucking goddamn Divine Favor
The best part is that half the deck's cards suck dicks so you can splash in Fel Reavers if you're laddering and don't need tech cards like Loatheb.
Post by: Neonivek on October 15, 2015, 01:59:34 pm
It just counters all the decks except ones that specifically counters it... perfectly legit.
Post by: frostshotgg on October 15, 2015, 02:27:32 pm
But fuck Divine Favor.
Post by: Criptfeind on October 15, 2015, 02:53:30 pm
It's a strong deck, but not as strong as patron, and it's got bad match ups against a lot of decks that patron wrecked that are now going to come out of the woodwork. And straight up unfairness doesn't really... Work out always. Handlock is way less fair then all the stuff you said for example, and it's not the bestest deck ever. A lot of the stuff doesn't mesh well together ether. Do you dump your hand and divine favor? Well, that's pretty strong. But if you have divine favor with a actual curve that's not very good at all. Or what about if you dump your hand but don't have divine favor? In the end it's really two decks, midrange and aggro, mashed together. At least on your unfairness list. And they don't work well together.
Post by: Rex_Nex on October 15, 2015, 03:27:14 pm
The new Warsong Commander nerf is horrendous. I cannot understand the decision at all, especially when they said we just dont understand how good it is. It's a 2/3 for 3 with "your charge minions have +1 attack". Thats horrific. For some comparison, Raid Leader, another trash card, is a 2/2 for 3 with "your minions have +1 attack". It's debatable better than the new Warsong Commander, despite being a long-since-dead common.
Post by: Criptfeind on October 15, 2015, 03:37:18 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on October 15, 2015, 05:26:52 pm
The only reason I can think for it being so bad is that they've decided that A: It needs to still have something to do with charge. and B: Charge needs to be bad from now on so a deck like this can't happen again. Thus, anything to do with charge from now on needs to be awful. Even then this goes a bit far...The card has never been used for anything other than one-turn kills, and they've already had to nerf it massively once. In an interview Brode also said it limited what they could do with future cards (eg apparently Dreadsteed was originally intended to be a neutral card in Naxxramas).
Post by: Criptfeind on October 15, 2015, 06:28:53 pm
The card has never been used for anything other than one-turn kills, and they've already had to nerf it massively once. In an interview Brode also said it limited what they could do with future cards (eg apparently Dreadsteed was originally intended to be a neutral card in Naxxramas).
Yeah, I know. And I totally agree with that reasoning. It really did have to go. But why bother replacing it with this card at all? It could have at least been a 3/3 or a 3/4 or something. This goes past nerffing a charge deck from ever being good to just putting yet another incredibly shitty (warrior common) card out.
Post by: Orange Wizard on October 15, 2015, 06:39:54 pm
It's a 2/3 for 3 with "your charge minions have +1 attack".What no
Damn you Blizzard
I liked Warsong Commander
You've ruined my life
Post by: IronyOwl on October 15, 2015, 06:52:36 pm
The card has never been used for anything other than (eg apparently Dreadsteed was originally intended to be a neutral card in Naxxramas).Aw man, that would have been hilarious.
Post by: DemonOfWrath on October 16, 2015, 01:28:13 am
"It limits design space". Yeah, sure. But what about BGH, piloted shredder, dr boom, mad scientist and emperor thaurissan? Those limit design space just as much or more than warsong commander did, when are they getting nerfed for consistency of that statement?
Warsong commander is almost objectively worse than raid leader (unplayable) and dire wolf alpha (used in zoo, and pretty good in arena) now. It's pretty sad.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 16, 2015, 08:38:47 am
War Song Commander as-was could make otherwise reasonable cards impossible to make due to combos it enabled. For example, neutral Dreadsteed.
Post by: DemonOfWrath on October 16, 2015, 09:24:28 am
Shredder and Boom I think limit design space simply by setting the benchmark for their mana costs far too high, as when considering a 4 or 7 drop the first thought is simply "Why don't I just play Shredder/Boom instead?". Maybe limiting design space is the wrong way to express it, but those cards crowd out far too many (existing or future) cards at their mana cost simply by existing.
I personally think Thaurissan is probably fine right now, but will inevitably create some other insane deck(s). He alters how future cards have to be designed because if a new card will cost X you can't just consider what (10-X) mana of cards can combo with it, but what combos are possible if it, and every other card, costs 1 less mana, because there's literally no way (Snipe+spell power doesn't count :P) to stop his effect triggering at least once. He's going to enable some stupidly powerful deck again eventually (I think he was the big problem with patron actually, as he enabled all the insane 1-turn combos, without him the deck would need at least one turn of setup that could be played around). You'd need a design team that's way, way better than what the Blizzard guys have shown themselves to be so far in order to avoid that.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 16, 2015, 10:25:06 am
Thaurissan is maybe a problem, but ultimately he's just one card so it's very hard to make a deck based around a combo that depends entirely on him. Patron worked because it was a critical mass combo that just got stronger with Thaurissan. He was important in some matchups but not all of them.
Post by: Rex_Nex on October 16, 2015, 07:16:23 pm
Post by: Wysthric on October 16, 2015, 08:11:20 pm
I feel that Dreadsteed is thematically fitted to Warlock too well for it to be a neutral card.
I personally agree with the statements on Doctor Boom and Shredder - these cards are so good for the mana that there's very little reason to choose anything else over them. The fact that War Golem is in the game is a bit confusing, although I guess you can have two copies. What I don't understand is why Evil Heckler is literally a better version of Booty Bay Bodyguard. Why not just change BBB's cost? ???
Post by: frostshotgg on October 16, 2015, 08:37:14 pm
Post by: DemonOfWrath on October 16, 2015, 08:46:04 pm
Yes, the first three cards may prevent other cards from seeing competitive constructed play, but it doesn't limit the potential design space of cards that Blizzard can release. I also think that BGH is completely necessary in a game where almost every class doesn't have access to good large removal spells, it prevents big guys from being excessively good.
Thaurissan is maybe a problem, but ultimately he's just one card so it's very hard to make a deck based around a combo that depends entirely on him. Patron worked because it was a critical mass combo that just got stronger with Thaurissan. He was important in some matchups but not all of them.
Sure, the first three don't actually limit what can be designed, but they do limit what they can design if they actually want the cards played (and I don't think they should be releasing deliberate crap). But I don't think they actually care about that, look at all the obvious junk in TGT, and new Warsong Commander.
Personally I don't think BGH is necessary, each class has decent ways of removal without it (I only got my first BGH 2 days ago, so I've had to deal without him forever) and big minions aren't all that powerful, they're already vulnerable enough that playing them is a huge risk (because again, BGH removes it for 3 mana and places a 4/2 down, it's such a big tempo swing that it can just immediately lose you the game). The only big minions that don't have a big battlecry/deathrattle that get played are Fel Reavers and giants, and I don't think an 8/8 needing to be ~5 mana to be playable is an indicator that big chunky minions are very strong in the game.
Sure patron worked without Thaurissan, but all the insane empty board 30/40/50+ damage combos (that was the problem with the deck, that it could do all of that in one turn with no setup) were purely reliant on him to drop costs on all the cards (remember, warsong+patron+frothing is 11 mana normally). He was the enabler for the really broken aspects of the deck (imo).
Post by: frostshotgg on October 16, 2015, 09:13:08 pm
Post by: DemonOfWrath on October 16, 2015, 10:36:04 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on October 16, 2015, 11:19:39 pm
The fact that War Golem is in the game is a bit confusing, although I guess you can have two copies. What I don't understand is why Evil Heckler is literally a better version of Booty Bay Bodyguard. Why not just change BBB's cost? ???Or Ice Rager being Magma Rager with +1 Health, instead of just giving Magma Rager +1 Health. I can only assume they wanted an excuse to add more cards.
Post by: Criptfeind on October 17, 2015, 12:31:42 am
Post by: PrivateNomad on October 17, 2015, 06:06:48 pm
Post by: Kansa on February 02, 2016, 01:39:17 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on February 02, 2016, 01:46:22 pm
Post by: miauw62 on February 02, 2016, 02:03:10 pm
Post by: Aklyon on February 02, 2016, 02:08:00 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on February 02, 2016, 03:28:57 pm
Post by: Orange Wizard on February 02, 2016, 06:32:53 pm
Sounds like they want people to craft cards instead of buy them for some reason.also what
Post by: Aklyon on February 02, 2016, 07:02:57 pm
Sounds like they want people to craft cards instead of buy them for some reason.also what
Quote
If you want any cards you missed out on for Wild play or just to fill out your collection, you’ll be able to craft them using Arcane Dust—even cards from Adventures that were previously un-craftable.Assuming people don't just play standard instead and all the old cards don't get power creeped to death, there eventually will be more cards you have to craft to have in Wild than there will be available to buy.
Post by: Orange Wizard on February 02, 2016, 07:20:13 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on February 02, 2016, 08:27:44 pm
Post by: Skyrunner on February 02, 2016, 08:59:57 pm
Post by: Teneb on February 02, 2016, 09:23:41 pm
Standard format was inevitable.This, yes. What is baffling is the retiring of the older adventures. What if people wanted to do the fights?
Post by: Jopax on February 02, 2016, 09:26:37 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on February 02, 2016, 10:34:11 pm
You know what, I bet it's so they can avoid having a like, 400 dollar buy in to get all the content right away. Avoid dat feeling, and just probably drip feed them in. Classic adventures coming back for a limited time! And all that. Even a great excuse for not having to every put anything on sale.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 03, 2016, 01:20:21 am
For once their standard excuse of "Newbies will be confused" is actually valid. Nothing would suck more than buying a pack only to see that you can't actually use the cards in it.It also adds an interesting dimension to rotation. Rather than making you feel bad about eg having bought Naxx when it rotates and becomes much less valuable you instead get to feel good because you were able to get all those cards for Wild at a discount, and even if you're not interested in Wild you get a whole pile of discounted dust. Similarly the rotation of a large set could be seen as "last chance to pick up these cards for cheap".
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on February 03, 2016, 11:31:54 am
Quote
To be honest this whole thing seems like a poor workaround to disguise the fact that they can't balance long-term for shit, but they seem to be getting away with it so meh.
Even the biggest card game companies use this sort of system. Magic the gathering alone has three major formats (Legacy, Modern, Standard), and many other systems have rotational such Fantasy Flight's LCG's, and Legends of the Five Rings. The only one I can name off the bat that doesn't is Yu-Gi-Oh, and that system tends to be plagued with some horrific excesses of OTK's, power creep, and overall issues that threw me out of playing it.
Post by: Aklyon on February 03, 2016, 11:34:21 am
Post by: frostshotgg on February 03, 2016, 11:44:47 am
It's an interesting exercise in the sustainability of power creep in the long term. It's managed to keep it up for a decade now, I'm interested to see when it fails, if it ever does.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 03, 2016, 12:55:07 pm
To be honest this whole thing seems like a poor workaround to disguise the fact that they can't balance long-term for shit, but they seem to be getting away with it so meh.But you can still play with that deck in Wild. This way Secret Paladin will leave the standard meta in spring when it loses half its cards, but people who own the deck can still play it if they want to. It seems like a better solution than just killing people's decks.
Funny though, that some of their old arguments against nerfing were basically 'We don't want some guy who played ten months ago to come back and find out he has to change his favourite deck slightly because we nerfed a card', but now they seem okay with this whole 'Half your cards aren't allowed in Standard now son' thing.
Post by: miauw62 on February 03, 2016, 01:04:28 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on February 03, 2016, 01:29:44 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on February 03, 2016, 01:55:44 pm
Post by: LASD on February 04, 2016, 07:00:30 pm
It's impossible for power to not creep in a card game without sets rotating out. Given a growing card pool, any time a new card is "good enough" to make the cut in a competetive deck, it just replaced a worse card, and the power of the deck grew. Rotating formats force good cards in decks to be dropped.
Yeah, exactly. Blaming Blizzard for not being able to balance long-term is pretty unfair considering it becomes pretty much impossible after a couple of years, unless you nerf everything until every card falls on the same power curve. Which then makes the game incredibly boring. Magic: The Gathering has been around for 23 years and they really know more about designing collectible card games than anyone. And still, they have to ban cards from formats because the players find dominant strategies after years of searching. They even have two variations of Hearthstone's Wild format: Vintage, where you can play any card, but certain cards are limited to one copy per deck for being so incredibly powerful. The other one is Legacy, where all the most powerful and expensive cards are banned so that it's actually even somewhat accessible to new players. And these ban/restriction lists still need constant updating to have the formats work at all.
So expecting Blizzard to be better at balancing their card game than a company that has been doing it for 23 years is a pretty tall order. Especially as the latter one has pretty much proved that any collectible card game becomes unbalanced after a critical mass of cards have been added.
Post by: DemonOfWrath on February 04, 2016, 08:57:05 pm
Post by: Aklyon on February 04, 2016, 09:05:07 pm
Yeah but Hearthstone is a digital game, not physical.Which means people will complain even faster if they actually edit cards instead of following everyone else and just make new cards instead.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 04, 2016, 09:06:16 pm
Post by: penguinofhonor on February 05, 2016, 06:59:46 am
This would create the perception that new cards are not relevant in competitive play and not worth buying. The way to fix this with balance changes would be to nerf old cards to make room for new cards, which would obviously piss everyone off. "You literally made my cards worse so you could sell me better ones?" It's power creep where you lower previous power levels instead of raising new ones.
Post by: frostshotgg on February 05, 2016, 08:40:33 am
Post by: Leafsnail on February 05, 2016, 08:24:27 pm
Post by: Wiles on April 26, 2016, 08:57:46 am
There are going to be 3 free packs given away when it comes out and two quests for 5 packs to bring the total up to 13 free packs!
I haven't been playing a lot of hearthstone lately but I've managed to squirrel away 2k gold for the expansion. I'm looking forward to pack opening when WotOG goes live this afternoon!
Post by: Nirur Torir on April 26, 2016, 05:55:55 pm
Post by: Jopax on April 26, 2016, 06:20:47 pm
Also some really cool stuff has come out, can't wait to start playing with Cthun, and eventually getting together an evolution shaman deck, that stuff seems super fun :D
Post by: frostshotgg on April 26, 2016, 08:58:12 pm
Post by: Jopax on April 27, 2016, 07:06:41 am
I've been having loads of fun with a C'thun priest tho, still need some cards to make it extra juicy but so far it's been a blast and my freshly crafted Ragnaros has proven to be a nice combo with the old guy himself, usually finishing the job if the active doesn't kill of the enemy.
Post by: Criptfeind on April 27, 2016, 07:53:03 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 27, 2016, 11:56:42 am
Yogg'Saron mage might be the most entertaining deck I've seen in a long time. Get it before it gets stale as hell and "oh wow, Yogg just fatigued his user again. shocking"
happened to me the 2nd time i played him. there were probably half a dozen minions on the board, and yogg-saron cast Doom, and fatigued me to death.
of course the third time he won the game for me by brawling, winning the brawl, and then putting up a bear trap. (he also polymorph->arcane blasted himself, but the rest was enough to win).
Post by: sambojin on April 28, 2016, 06:25:56 am
Watched Kipparian make and run a very silly/good low-mana Warlock deck too. Probably went 25-4, but only at rank 12 to 9, on a non-carded account. Was kind of cool that early mana game synergy still exists, especially while everyone is playing with the new big toys. It was kind of scary actually.
C'thun is good, but not hugely necessary. Damn good when he comes out though, because he does a reliable "thingy".
The rest seemed pretty random, probably too random, and couldn't be reliably built for effect.
I like the 1-card "meh", 2-cards "alright", 3-cards "good", 4-cards "amazing" design-space they've gone for on build-up cards. And especially Totemic Shaman, Totemic Golem, Thing From Below synergy. It's just what the class needed.
Can't comment on Evolution/Master of Mutation yet, but they might be too good, even with randomness. Not so much for what they do, but due to the "healing". Any damage probably should carry over to the new minion, even if it kills them. Instant balance! And very thematic for the set.
We'll see in a month how it all panned out as deck design happens. Go Shammy! People will probably start realizing that they didn't actually need any cards from this set, but it's nice to have them.
Post by: Jopax on April 28, 2016, 07:01:00 am
Might consider getting even more clears, but I'm not sure what I'd kick out in exchange for those.
Also funny thing happened when I was versing another C'thun priest and he basically played his C'thun early, not doing much in the process, I killed it and then he played that cultist dude which buffs it, or puts it back into your deck if it died. I play thoughtsteal next turn and get his C'thun :D
Post by: Wiles on April 28, 2016, 09:32:56 am
Yog Saron is also an interesting card to build a deck around but the randomness can really cause troubles. I find he is a fun card, but not a great card because of all the RNG involved. You can do some amazing stuff with him but at the same time you can get really unlucky and get completely destroyed by your own card.
Post by: Mesa on April 28, 2016, 02:41:42 pm
In unrelated news I had the new Deathwing, Dragonlord (http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/hearthstone.gamepedia.com/b/bb/Deathwing%2C_Dragonlord%2833177%29.png) in my very last free Old Gods pack, as my de facto first legendary that is not C'Thun or an adventure legendary (I'm almost done with the final League of Explorers wing but Rafaam is better with my decks than me). Can't use it without any decent dragons though.
Overall I've been having an extreme amount of fun with the game now, which is great news in and of itself.
Post by: frostshotgg on April 28, 2016, 04:16:18 pm
Post by: Nirur Torir on April 28, 2016, 04:16:36 pm
I'm having more fun with my paladin C'Thun deck than expected, but it is a bit too reliant on good draws for tempo. I miss muster for battle.
Post by: Jopax on April 28, 2016, 05:29:01 pm
Post by: RangerCado on April 28, 2016, 05:32:21 pm
Post by: Arx on April 30, 2016, 02:50:48 pm
Post by: Darkmere on May 30, 2016, 10:15:31 pm
Anyone still playing this thing? I just picked it up and wouldn't mind spectating people who know more what they're doing. Please?
Darkmere#1718 if you wish to add me.
Post by: Arx on May 31, 2016, 04:50:13 am
Ayyyyy!
Anyone still playing this thing? I just picked it up and wouldn't mind spectating people who know more what they're doing. Please?
Darkmere#1718 if you wish to add me.
You're welcome to add me (Arx#219477 (literally twenty thousand of us)), but I'm not particularly good. I suggest looking on the YouTubes - I personally like Brian Kibler, my sister raves about Trump (no, not that Trump), and I think Amaz and Kripparian are things as well.
I'm currently 4-1 on an arena run. Feeling pretty okay about it.
Post by: Criptfeind on May 31, 2016, 04:58:46 am
But yeah. Some youtube players (and streamers) might be more entertaining and helpful to watch. Trump has a series on basic learning for newer players. I dunno about Brian Kibler and Amaz, but I'd suggest maybe staying away from Kripparian if you want to learn, dude's got more salt then skill sometimes (not to say he's not better at the game then me still. Just, very sorta skewed way of looking at things sometimes, which he can sorta back up with the skills). But, he can be entertaining (if you're into saltiness).
Post by: Arx on May 31, 2016, 05:35:38 am
Although I would say I'm not particularly good ether, although hey I did just hit legendary. So eyyy maybe.
Well, that makes you about a million times better than me. :P I've broken rank 19 once, although admitedly I only started playing this month.
Finished that arena run. A terrifying face aggro hunter and a nice Thaurissan mage took me down to 5-3 pretty fast, which was sad. Still pretty okay with my result though, since it netted me quite a bit of dosh.
Post by: Darkmere on May 31, 2016, 07:20:29 am
Post by: ATHATH on May 31, 2016, 10:38:44 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 01, 2016, 11:36:59 am
I just found this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9popqd6zPQ
disguised toast is one of the best HS youtubers.
Post by: ATHATH on June 01, 2016, 01:22:30 pm
Agreed. He's like the Danny2462 of Hearthstone.I just found this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9popqd6zPQ
disguised toast is one of the best HS youtubers.
Post by: Jopax on June 01, 2016, 06:08:21 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on June 01, 2016, 08:58:03 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on June 01, 2016, 10:17:05 pm
Post by: Darkmere on June 06, 2016, 01:55:42 am
The sheer number of bots floors me, though. It's blatantly obvious when they scan every card on the board for the exact same amount of time every single turn trying to find the best trade. I can't complain; they're generally powerless against any real strategy or a reasonable C'thun deck, so more gold for me.
Two questions:
1) League of explorers: Worth buying? The cards look very useful and I'm really curious about the challenge modes. I have no problem tossing Blizzard some cash as a sort of one-time "purchase fee".
2)How much warning do we get before new content? I've heard since Old Gods was the last one, an adventure is next and those release in wings. How soon should I start gold hoarding?
I lied! Bonus question:
3) How common are those deck tracker things? I use an add-on to keep track of my collection, but using the assists during a match seems shady (so my assumption is everyone is doing it). No intention of using the gameplay overlays, just curious.
Post by: wereboar on June 06, 2016, 08:32:01 am
1) League of explorers: Worth buying? The cards look very useful and I'm really curious about the challenge modes. I have no problem tossing Blizzard some cash as a sort of one-time "purchase fee".Wings 1 and 2 are a must. 3 and 4 are optional.
2)How much warning do we get before new content? I've heard since Old Gods was the last one, an adventure is next and those release in wings. How soon should I start gold hoarding?Normally it was a month or so. But with the Old Gods they gave out a warning like a few months prior. We'll see if that's a policy change they'll stick to.
Start hoarding gold when expansion is announced.
3) How common are those deck tracker things? I use an add-on to keep track of my collection, but using the assists during a match seems shady (so my assumption is everyone is doing it). No intention of using the gameplay overlays, just curious.Completely up to you, it is not considered cheating.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 06, 2016, 08:35:36 am
2: Hard to say. There's been times where they dropped the news a month in advance. And others where we've only gotten a week.
3: I have no idea how common they are. I don't use it, but that's about the only statistic I have available. They are very very common among professional players though, so I guess they are not that shady, since blizzard probably would have done something if all the high visibility players are using them (and they are) and blizzard didn't like it.
Edit: To give a better breakdown on the wings.
Wing one has: Reno Jackson and Jeweled scarab, I'd say nether one is really top tier (whoops, sorta shoots my earlier advice in the foot), but they are generally playable.
Wing two has: Tunnel trog (top tier in shaman) tomb spider (dang good in hunter) unearthed raptor (on the edge of top tier in rogue, but a it can be a pretty expensive deck) fierce monkey (playable in some warrior decks) Excavated Evil (top tier in priest, but once again pretty expensive) and bran bronzebeard (top tier in a few decks, notably C'thun decks. Probably playable in other decks.)
Wing three has: Huge Toad (good in hunter) Sir Finley Mrrgglton (good in shaman sometimes, fallen out of flavor I feel though) and also Anyfin can happen. Which I think was sooooo close to making a whole new deck type (combo paladin) until they ripped out my heart and stomped it to the dirt by removing old murk eye from standard. Probably not playable, but sometimes get experimented with, possibly we'll see it's use someday.
Wing four has: raven idol (top tier in druid expensive deck) Museum Curator (top tier in priest expensive deck) Desert Camel (playable in some hunter decks) Arch-Thief Rafaam (uhhhh. I'm not convinced by this card but I've seen it played rarely in some very expensive decks so maybe...) and Elise Starseeker (who is top tier in a couple of ridiculously expensive control decks.)
Post by: wereboar on June 06, 2016, 09:02:55 am
Wing one: Reno is actually a top tier legendary. If you're into fun slow decks you simply have to play it. Another very good card here is dark peddler, a staple of the new warlock Zoo.
Wing two: Most of the cards here are really good. Best bang for your buck.
Wing three: Some weird decks play Finley, but he's not great. Entomb is very good if you want to play a priest. Otherwise a useless wing.
Wing four: I actually like Elise, it's a fun card. Raven idol is an okay druid card, Museum Curator is a good priest card. Most rogues play Tomb Pillager now.
To sum it up, unless you like playing priest or really want to try Golden Monkey shenanigans you can safely skip wing 3 and 4.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 06, 2016, 09:33:46 am
Edit: Also I don't really think Jackson is really top tier, at least not with the meta I've been seeing. Control decks don't care that much, zoo is perfectly willing to make the trade of 30 health for half your deck being bad. Really only good against shaman... Even then you're really weakening your deck when you need dat early consistancy. I mean, good card. Fun card. Just not a great card, mostly. I've heard that Renolock is actually okay... Not seen it much though
Post by: wereboar on June 06, 2016, 09:57:53 am
I've heard that Renolock is actually okay... Not seen it much thoughCheck some recent tournaments. Renolock is actually among the strongest competitive decks right now.
But I personally love playing Reno in a rogue deck on ladder. I guess I am just a spiteful person because I love watching opponents melt down when I play Reno five times in one game. Everyone's playing zoolocks and faceshamans anyway, feels good humiliating the buggers.
Post by: Jopax on June 06, 2016, 10:04:39 am
I've been really struggling on ladder recently, barely got to rank 19 last night, it was really horrible. Like, playing control C'Thun priest against a face shaman and getting nothing smaller than a five drop in the first four turns, while the fucker plays perfect curve, it was disgusting.
It's just face and aggro it seems, and I'm honestly thinking of building something to just directly counter that, like, a priest with seven boardclears or something, just to spite the fuckers playing that.
Post by: Arx on June 06, 2016, 10:23:47 am
Post by: Criptfeind on June 06, 2016, 10:28:08 am
I've heard that Renolock is actually okay... Not seen it much thoughCheck some recent tournaments. Renolock is actually among the strongest competitive decks right now.
But I personally love playing Reno in a rogue deck on ladder. I guess I am just a spiteful person because I love watching opponents melt down when I play Reno five times in one game. Everyone's playing zoolocks and faceshamans anyway, feels good humiliating the buggers.
Ah yes, tournaments, I suppose that's legitimate. Although they are totally different beasts then ladder... And I figured the dude at rank 19 wasn't asking if the cards were good for his tournament decks.
Post by: wereboar on June 06, 2016, 03:48:49 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on June 06, 2016, 04:33:28 pm
Finley is still really good in decks with bad hero powers like Tempo Warrior and most shaman decks. Brann is really good in some decks, but none of the decks he's good in are popular right now.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 06, 2016, 04:40:21 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on June 06, 2016, 05:29:12 pm
Now that you can dust adventure cards LoE also gives you a lot more dust than buying packs would.
e: I'd actually recommend Pirate Warrior as a newplayer deck, particularly if you have Finley. It's pretty cheap to craft if you find a replacement for Leeroy and it actually sees competitive play.
Post by: frostshotgg on June 06, 2016, 05:43:32 pm
Post by: Jopax on June 06, 2016, 05:47:06 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on June 06, 2016, 06:28:28 pm
Post by: Darkmere on June 06, 2016, 08:32:32 pm
I figured the dude at rank 19 wasn't asking if the cards were good for his tournament decks.
This is correct. I can't really function on low-ladder right now because everyone seems to be gold grinding with their 4+ legendary decks and my C'thun Shaman can't hold a winning streak enough to advance really far.
I am going to go ahead and buy LoE, with the knowledge that I can start saving gold up for future stuff and not have to spend any more real money on the game. $40 isn't a terrible investment for a Blizzard game, to me.
Shame I missed the Blackrock Mountain one, though. Not spending money on it and I won't have enough time with it at this point to make it worth the goldfarm, but it's so chock-full of WoW Nostalgia for me...
Post by: frostshotgg on June 06, 2016, 08:40:30 pm
Post by: Darkmere on June 06, 2016, 09:14:53 pm
It's worth it to buy the first branch of BRM at some point in the next few months since I believe we still have most of a year with it still being in rotation. As long as you own one branch of an adventure, you can still buy the rest at your leisure even after it rotates out.
Ah, thanks. I'm a ways off from wild decks but I'll be sure to snag the first branch sometime.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 06, 2016, 10:21:28 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on June 07, 2016, 08:11:16 am
Post by: Criptfeind on June 08, 2016, 11:24:29 am
Edit: That sounds maybe hyperbolic and the sorta thing that a hater would say about every brawl, I have to admit. However I'm being genuine here, I like to think I'm pretty optimistic about brawl quality and such most of the time, but this one is just so irredeemably bad I actually can't understand how they didn't trash it in whatever testing phase they do.
Post by: Arx on June 08, 2016, 12:45:51 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on June 08, 2016, 02:30:00 pm
Post by: Darkmere on June 08, 2016, 02:43:13 pm
But I got my one victory due to my opponent's frustration on my second match, so I guess that's it for me for a week.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 08, 2016, 06:04:01 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on June 08, 2016, 06:10:09 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on June 08, 2016, 06:16:58 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on June 08, 2016, 06:48:51 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on June 08, 2016, 07:12:48 pm
e: damn I really hope they do Miniature Warfare again soon, there are so many new cards that seem amazing in it.
e2: also to be clear I didn't like 7+ mana minions that much due to how slow the actual gameplay was. But at least there was some silly stuff you could do in deck construction.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 08, 2016, 07:33:33 pm
Post by: Darkmere on June 08, 2016, 08:56:55 pm
I understand it, and I don't know a great way around it, but it really wasn't pleasant for a while.
Post by: Arx on June 09, 2016, 12:59:10 am
E: Heck, Top 20 tier Freeze mage is 19/30 basics and commons. Five epics and two legendaries, and one of those legendaries could arguably be swapped for a Kobold Geomancer or Loot Hoarder at the price of a several-rank hit. I guess for another several-rank hit you could swap out the Alexstrasza for another Pyroblast, or an Antonidas if you happen to just have that legendary (with less of a hit). The epics are admittedly all core.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 09, 2016, 06:25:40 am
Post by: frostshotgg on June 09, 2016, 06:31:20 am
Post by: Arx on June 09, 2016, 06:37:29 am
Trying to play budget Freeze Mage seems like a very bad idea. The deck is hugely worse without Alex or Emperor and basically unplayable without Doomsayer and Ice Block.
Like I said, the epics are core, which is an issue. However, Otter played a Thaurissan-less freeze to Legend 18, so I disagree with your position on Emperor, and Alex is undoubtedly exceptionally strong, but she's basically best case 15 burst. Or worst case I guess 14 heal.
The point isn't that it's a budget deck, but rather a deck that can be approximated surprisingly quickly with a couple of lucky draws. Do you need lucky draws? Sure. Are you going to be making Legend within a month of starting play? Unlikely, unless you spend hella cash. Is building a strong deck from mostly commons/basics impossible? Clearly not.
Yeah, Freeze Mage isn't Wallet Warrior or Pay2Win Paladin, but it's not super cheap and you can't really skimp. Tempo Mage, on the other hand, is a crazy cheap deck. There are versions of it that don't run anything more than rares, and you can basically cobble together a decent deck with whatever cards you happen to pull.
Tempo mage is also really strong. I kind of dislike it because I feel like Azure Drake is insanely core, but that's mostly because I'm bitter that I haven't drawn it. :P
Post by: Leafsnail on June 09, 2016, 07:16:47 am
Yeah, Freeze Mage isn't Wallet Warrior or Pay2Win Paladin, but it's not super cheap and you can't really skimp. Tempo Mage, on the other hand, is a crazy cheap deck. There are versions of it that don't run anything more than rares, and you can basically cobble together a decent deck with whatever cards you happen to pull.It absolutely requires the 4th wing of Blackrock to be worth playing at all though.
Post by: Arx on June 09, 2016, 07:18:30 am
I can't find the list you're referring to. In a midrange deck you can mostly just cut the legendaries and accept that you will get a slight power reduction each time you play their worse replacement. But Freeze Mage is a combo deck, which means there are games where you end up drawing cards waiting for Alex or Emperor to come. And if they're not in your deck your gameplan just falls apart and you lose.
Otter pops. (http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/58909-otter-pops)
Post by: Leafsnail on June 09, 2016, 07:35:13 am
Post by: Arx on June 09, 2016, 07:39:54 am
Post by: frostshotgg on June 09, 2016, 07:45:00 am
Flamewanker is incredibly strong, but you could still relatively easily hit rank 10 without them. Turns out a lot of mage cards are really good in a vacuum, and a lot of players are really bad. You're basically playing a really good arena run. Pretend you bottomdeck both of them every time if you want, like when I play Control Warrior or Priest and bottomdeck Justicar and N'zoth.Yeah, Freeze Mage isn't Wallet Warrior or Pay2Win Paladin, but it's not super cheap and you can't really skimp. Tempo Mage, on the other hand, is a crazy cheap deck. There are versions of it that don't run anything more than rares, and you can basically cobble together a decent deck with whatever cards you happen to pull.It absolutely requires the 4th wing of Blackrock to be worth playing at all though.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 09, 2016, 07:52:45 am
Post by: wereboar on June 09, 2016, 10:45:49 am
Flamewaker is overrated indeed.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 09, 2016, 11:48:59 am
Post by: wereboar on June 09, 2016, 11:59:41 am
We are too used to mage tempo decks playing secrets, lots of early removal spells and being rather reactive. But C'thun tempo obviously has to be more minion heavy and aggressive on the board.
Here's the deck I'm playing with some advice on substitutes if you don't have any dust to spare at all.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Criptfeind on June 09, 2016, 12:02:18 pm
Post by: wereboar on June 09, 2016, 12:16:36 pm
What's your definition though?
I would actually argue that C'thun tempo is more consistent than the old flamewaker decks and is easier for new players to grasp.
Post by: frostshotgg on June 09, 2016, 12:53:06 pm
Post by: wereboar on June 09, 2016, 01:39:20 pm
Tempo decks are all about playing early, spending all the mana they can, and having efficient answers to everything.True. But wrong emphasis. Tempo decks are rather about threats than answers.
Cards that are expensive, or don't do anything when you play them are the opposite of what you'd expect to find in a tempo deck.Not true.
You seem to be under an impression that tempo plays are all about answers to opponent's threats. It's incorrect.
For example, Flamewreathed Faceless "doesn't do anything when it hits the board". Still one of the highest tempo cards in the game.
Most tempo decks work by consistently winning on the board. I mean, look at warlock Zoo, old mech mage or tempo paladin.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 09, 2016, 01:50:55 pm
Flamewreathed is tempo because it's a high amount of immediate board position for it's cost. the C'thun cards are pretty much all mediocre board position for their cost (with a few exceptions)
Edit: And, of course, to be a tempo card I'd sorta have to tautologically say it'd have to work in a deck where the general idea is about tempo. One could say C'thun is a tempo card under what I said previously in this post, dropping a 20/20 C'thun for 10 mana is a pretty tempo play. However, to get to that point you need a low tempo deck, and the high mana cost often introduces a tempo killing opportunity cost to having it in your deck, IE: whenever you hold it in your hand without being able to play it. This is also the sorta general reasoning why I wouldn't call other high tempo high mana cost cards tempo, at least generally. Although certainly the line can be blurry. *cough* doctor boom *cough*
Post by: Arx on June 09, 2016, 01:53:00 pm
And I'd say it's a bit of both - you do want to threaten, but you also want to have efficient answers. Because obviously you want to be able to do both of those things.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 09, 2016, 02:03:06 pm
Post by: wereboar on June 09, 2016, 02:09:18 pm
You give up other advantages (mostly card advantage) for that board position or tempo.Not necessarily. Mech mage was a very strong tempo deck and you just played cards on curve. Mostly minions. Who mostly did not immediately do something.
Cards that give up in other categories in exchange for tempo are what I'd call tempo cards.Simply incorrect. Which category did piloted shredder or Dr. Boom gave up in?
C'thun cards are the opposite of that, they give up current board position (you know, relative to another playable card of the same mana) in exchange for a benefit in the future. Flamewalker is a key tempo card because it lets you play a lot of very low cost spells to establish a strong tempo position.Many C'thun cards have decent tempo because either of good statline or special effects.
And once again, flamewaker tempo relied on spells for tempo. This is not how tempo always works. Look at warlock zoo or tempo paladin.
FF is an exception though because of its incredible statline.It's not an exception. Getting most bang for you buck is the definition of tempo.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 09, 2016, 02:19:39 pm
Many C'thun cards have decent tempo because either of good statline or special effects.
There's only two C'thun cards I'd say fit this catagory. Unsurprisingly, they are the two that I've seen played in decks without C'thun. Cult Sorcerer, which, yes, I'd call an acceptable tempo card, or at least a card that fits in tempo decks. And dark Arakkoa, which I wouldn't call a tempo card simply because it's high mana cost prohibits it from taking the board control quickly. Otherwise, no. I don't think any of the other C'thun cards are actually good on their own. Often they are like... Kinda playable on their own? But not high tempo. Not good.
Flamewaker makes tempo from many small spells. Zoo makes tempo from minion synergies and the fact that they can go extreme with the low mana cost cards because of their hero power. Tempo paladin.... Well, it's a pretty aggro deck to call tempo, but, same idea as warlock, lots of tiny overwhelming cards and insane amounts of card draw. Where's C'thun getting equivalent tempo as any of these decks? The answer is simply that it's not generally. like, a C'thun deck might get lucky trades and draws and stuff and keep up, but that's not the point of the deck, and furthermore I'd have to stay that's not an average result.
Simply put, all these cards and decks you're using as examples have something the C'thun cards don't. Immediate high board impact for their cost.
Post by: wereboar on June 09, 2016, 02:21:42 pm
You people are just pulling my leg.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 09, 2016, 02:23:03 pm
Post by: Wiles on June 22, 2016, 01:50:32 pm
I've switched from using slower decks to faster ones because it seems in the long run that even if my win rate is a bit lower I still climb faster. I've been piloting my own hunter deck, but I have stalled out at rank 8. So instead I've switched to trying some net decks out but I haven't really found one that is helping me climb yet.
Post by: wereboar on June 22, 2016, 01:51:47 pm
Post by: Darkmere on June 23, 2016, 01:31:41 pm
So I recently got a golden Captain Greenskin. I want to put it towards something that's less complete garbage. I don't have enough dust to really make a superproleetuberpwnooblol deck for any class, so what's my options for generic legendaries that will be useful to more than 1 deck?
I have all of League of Explorers, BRM wing 1, and (Al'akir, Ragnaros Lightlord for class specifics). And of course C'thun. I'd consider Vek'lor but I'm already getting pretty sick of the C'thun gimmick, despite that fact that those are the only good-for-most cards I actually have a set of. yay.
People say Sylvanas all the time, but I have never, ever seen her ability get used. death trade or hard removal erryday.
Non-serious question:
What's the uberleetpwnsawuceprotip master's way of "just use yer skill bro" when your opponents just keep getting the perfect on-curve counters to everything you have, 5 games in a row? Coz I get that a lot.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 23, 2016, 01:59:28 pm
If you really want to make a legendary though, Sylvanas is, like you mentioned top of the list, but she's generally good only in very heavy control decks that are quite expensive. There's also leeroy jenkins, who is sometimes used in faster decks, right now some zoos run him, and sometimes aggro does (although not currently). Also twin emperor Vek'lor is probably the easiest to make a deck that works with, but you've already said you're getting tired of C'thun. So, not really any good answers.
If you really really specifically like a class there's some cards like Tirion that are usable in almost every deck of that class I guess, but then you'd be tied to that class.
Post by: wereboar on June 23, 2016, 01:59:39 pm
Serious Question:Sylvanas is the best choice hands down.
1. It is the most used legendary across all classes.
2. It has tremendous independent value and never lost relevance with all previous meta changes.
3. It's a basic set legendary so it will never phase out of Standard.
Non-serious question:Play OTK decks obviously.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 23, 2016, 02:00:37 pm
Speaking of which, Ragnaros is another very good craft. It's an extremely powerful card that fits into any deck that can reasonably play an 8 mana minion.
Post by: Wiles on June 23, 2016, 02:34:22 pm
Serious Question:
So I recently got a golden Captain Greenskin. I want to put it towards something that's less complete garbage. I don't have enough dust to really make a superproleetuberpwnooblol deck for any class, so what's my options for generic legendaries that will be useful to more than 1 deck?
People say Sylvanas all the time, but I have never, ever seen her ability get used. death trade or hard removal erryday.
I would probably recommend crafting the classic legendaries you want first since they aren't going to be phased out.
I do think Sylvanas would be my number one pick. She doesn't always get to pull off an amazing minion steal but even if she dies she usually has had a positive impact on the board in your favour. She forces your opponent to have an answer and if they don't have an answer they are forced to play sub-optimally.
My second pick would probably be Ragnaros the Firelord. He is another minion that forces your opponent to react immediately. He does kinda suck against shamans which are popular right now though. Their boards are usually full of low value minions which will tank his fireballs.
Another good pick is Leeroy Jenkins although I think he is a bit more niche. He is a strong finisher in decks such as zoo lock or miracle rogue. I've been playing pirate warrior lately and he is a great card to add to the deck to close out the game.
Those are probably the neutral legendaries I run into the most. Other honourable mentions might be Ysera (might be a bit too slow in the current meta though) or Bloodmage Thalnos.
If you don't mind crafting a class legendary then you might want to look at Tirion. He is probably the best class legendary in the game and fits into a lot of Paladin (and priest :P) decks. You mentioned you have Ragnaros the Lightlord so you could run a control paladin deck with those two legendaries. It might be worth noting that paladin isn't the strongest class right now but it is definitely playable.
edit: looks like other people answered while I was writing this out, so I'm probably repeating a lot of what has already been said :)
Post by: Darkmere on June 23, 2016, 03:03:10 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on June 23, 2016, 03:17:38 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on June 23, 2016, 03:22:24 pm
Post by: wereboar on June 23, 2016, 03:35:04 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on June 23, 2016, 03:37:21 pm
Post by: Darkmere on June 23, 2016, 03:42:10 pm
I have no problem crafting what I want immeditely, because if I keep this up I'm most certainly going to get sick of 7-loss streaks long, LONG before I magically draw everything ever that I need in 2 years or so.
Post by: Wiles on June 23, 2016, 04:54:51 pm
If you're new you're spending a lot of time playing against people who have more cards and often times more experience. Of the two experience is the most important thing to have though. There are pro hearthstone players that can make it to legend on fresh hearthstone accounts without spending a dime. I'm not saying that as a beginner that is what someone should strive for because honestly those players have spent countless hours playing hearthstone and know the game inside and out. I have been playing for a long time and I can't even make it to legend even though I have the cards for it :P
For new players probably the best approach is to find a deck archetype that you like and focus on getting the cards for it and learning how to play against different matchups. A lot of the time you can make budget versions of decks to play until you have the cards you need. Some decks are a lot cheaper than others too. I have been playing pirate warrior for the last couple of days and it is a relatively cheap deck to play. It runs mostly class cards, commons and rares. It runs no epics. It does have two legendaries (Sir Finley and Leeroy) but they could easily be cut.
There are a lot of guides out there that have lists you can grow into. For example I ran into a decent looking guide on reddit last week that has budget deck lists with replacements for harder to get cards. Here's the link (https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveHS/comments/4nm7cf/wingsofwaxs_standard_kraken_budget_deck_guide/) if you're interested.
Post by: wereboar on June 23, 2016, 07:57:03 pm
At this point I'm mostly just infuriated from losing 70% of the time at the "shit easy omglol" rank 19-20 with decks that "should be able to climb to 15" because my opponents have a library of legendaries. Like, 4+ every game, and not adventure ones.Mate, you seriously overestimate legendaries when it comes to deck building. You can reach legendary rank with decks that contain no legendaries whatsoever. Zoolock, face shaman, midrange hunter, divine aggro paladin are all dirt cheap and pretty consistent decks. And those are just off the top of my head.
I have no problem crafting what I want immeditely, because if I keep this up I'm most certainly going to get sick of 7-loss streaks long, LONG before I magically draw everything ever that I need in 2 years or so.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 23, 2016, 08:04:30 pm
Post by: wereboar on June 23, 2016, 08:35:18 pm
Still you can just make a mage deck with FREE cards and maybe throw in a few hundred dust and it will work surprisingly well.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 23, 2016, 08:53:28 pm
Post by: Darkmere on June 23, 2016, 09:32:41 pm
Arenas are pointless for me for the most part. last two attempts were 2-3 and 0-3, and the last 4 matches were unplayable draws (literally. 4-mana and up from all mulligans every time) until I was completely hopeless, because neither draft gave me any board clears (shaman and warrior).
Yes, it's still technically better yield for the 150 gold, but when it feels like I should just concede by turn 3... I'd rather just grind Casual.
Most of the time those decks fall within the "sorta shitty midrange" that I was talking about. And even a 1000 dust deck (low cost for even zoo there) is still a month or two of play for a ftp player who can't make arena profitable. Edit: assuming they are willing to dust lots of the cards that they pull, damaging their value in the long term
And that's part of it, too. Lots of stuff sounds fun, but I don't have the dust to make anything work. And that's after $40 spent, which is all I'm willing and able to pay right now.
I am considering some kind of midrange totemic Shaman, but I have decent enough cards that I can get semi-reliable wins as long as I don't step into ranked.
Post by: EvilTwin on June 24, 2016, 09:52:33 am
...
If you want to win more, maybe have a look at Trump's channel (no, not the guy with the weird hair and superiority complex). He has some videos about how to play common decks you might currently be facing against (Standard Teachings (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLKQWBcNtdc&index=1&list=PLvEIxIeBRKShhTwofotp7c6aofSaWvuhc)), which can help you understand your opponents better, as well as videos on the basics of board control and similar (Basic Teachings (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KjtRokhpvM&index=1&list=PLvEIxIeBRKSjprrvlbAcbVjzHsnH9PjDX)). Watching his stream certainly helped me out a lot when I first started playing Hearthstone :)
Post by: IronyOwl on June 24, 2016, 12:23:57 pm
It's sorta an understandable feeling though, to a new player just starting out the only deck they have access to is more or less the "sorta shitty midrangy deck". Which is incredibly frustrating to play against expensive control decks, since you don't really have the ability to rush them down most of the time so you just get slowrolled as their legendary out value your free to play cards. I mean, dirt cheap is... Unless you're doing arena, still surprisingly expensive. Telling someone that they'll be able to make a competitive deck that stomps these overly heavy legendary decks in a few months of play is a cold comfort in the now.It's worth reiterating that even if your opponents aren't actually winning more than you, it's just incredibly unsatisfying to lose via legendary when you don't have any. When an opponent narrowly combos you down a turn before you'd have the board presence to finish him off, it tends to feel like you got beaten fairly in a close match. When an opponent drops Ragnaros and you draw a yeti in response, it tends to feel like this game is bullshit.
Post by: Darkmere on June 24, 2016, 04:54:53 pm
It's only in casual, but I did get several wins last night on my midrange shaman, even including baiting people to make poor plays and a pretty awesome fake-out where I played to setup a combo I didn't have and my opponent fell for it.
Much more fun than that one game a priest played C'thun against me three times. :P
Post by: Sonlirain on June 24, 2016, 08:11:01 pm
So naturally i made a specialty deck consisting of 28 2 cost minions and 2 1 cost fire bats and went ahead to play in causal.
3 games won in a row and quest complete.
I wouldn't do that in ranked but yeesh.
Hunter meta best meta.
Post by: wereboar on June 25, 2016, 10:26:41 am
It's worth reiterating that even if your opponents aren't actually winning more than you, it's just incredibly unsatisfying to lose via legendary when you don't have any. When an opponent narrowly combos you down a turn before you'd have the board presence to finish him off, it tends to feel like you got beaten fairly in a close match. When an opponent drops Ragnaros and you draw a yeti in response, it tends to feel like this game is bullshit.Seriously, dude. You lose not because you lack legendaries but because you do not yet understand how to build decks and play them. You shouldn't even play yetis in your decks unless you're like on your second month in the game. Watch some streams, look up some cheap netdecks. I can help you build something reasonable if you want.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 25, 2016, 10:53:24 am
Post by: Sonlirain on June 25, 2016, 11:06:07 am
Post by: frostshotgg on June 25, 2016, 11:51:02 am
Post by: Darkmere on June 25, 2016, 04:46:17 pm
Brand-new F2P'ers are just kinda stuck there for a long while just because you can't win often with all-basic decks, even in Casual. Arena is way too complex for a newbie, so you're going to get stomped there, too. And once you've clawed up to 20 for the freebies in Ranked, you hit people grinding lowbie beatdowns with Yshaarj, Tirion, Sylvanas and stuff.
I was fortunate enough to complete most of the neutral C'thun tribe cards from my $20 worth of WOG packs, but pure F2P's don't have that option. It's really newbie unfriendly all around, and that's AFTER Standard came in to help out some.
Granted, it is a temporary problem (I'm established enough now that I'll never pay real money for an adventure again), so at least it can be overcome. Eventually.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 25, 2016, 04:56:16 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on June 25, 2016, 06:10:59 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on June 25, 2016, 07:25:04 pm
Post by: Darkmere on June 26, 2016, 04:11:14 am
1) Is the reward pack always going to be current expansion? I need a lot more classic than WoG cards... I remember getting 2 packs before, one of each, but I'm not seeing extra pack on the wiki's rewards list.
And 2) I've heard the rewards list changed recently. Is the new one posted somewhere? I know the goodies form my 5-win run don't match the Wiki (I got more gold than it says I should have, 65g).
Post by: frostshotgg on June 26, 2016, 04:55:35 am
Post by: Arx on June 28, 2016, 07:02:46 am
I coasted up to rank 17 with it just about effortlessly. The drawback is that it's pretty easy to end up weak to aggro (i.e. half the current meta) if you miss the wrong cards.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 28, 2016, 07:05:19 am
Post by: Arx on June 28, 2016, 07:16:51 am
Post by: Wiles on June 28, 2016, 12:02:36 pm
I tried a few different decks but I've been having consistency issues. The aggressive decks I tried did very well against all the c'thun and control decks that are running around on ladder but tended to lose to shamans and zoo. I've played a bit of control too but I've been either having trouble with aggro or other control decks depending on how I built them.
The last few days I've been running into more aggro shamans than usual. (Before that I was mostly running into warriors). I got so sick of losing to shamans that today decided to make a paladin deck focused on countering them. I honestly didn't care how bad it did against other decks I just wanted shamans to share in my misery. :P
Since making the deck I have not faced a single shaman. Not one! It's been doing okay against other decks but it pretty much flops against control because it's not designed to deal with warriors that have a 80 health by the end of the game.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 28, 2016, 12:48:11 pm
I've never seen an aggro shaman list that doesn't use Finley.
You don't need Finley in aggro shaman. It's there because it's a 1-drop that will occasionally make the game easier for you. Most games you won't even draw it.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 28, 2016, 02:17:41 pm
Post by: Darkmere on June 28, 2016, 02:30:29 pm
For the curious, the current iteration is posted here. (http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/579869-midrange-shaman-test)
It's not a "real" combo-grade OTK thing, but the dream would be a tick of Thaurissan on the two flametongues and rockbiter, played to buff Al'akir to 20 damage on drop +whatever else was on the board... But reasonably it's more like 10+.
The cards I'm waffling on are Raid Leader, Lava Burst, Unbound Elemental, Psych-o-tron.
I could eek out some dust to get another mana tide totem to help cycle cards and replace the unbound ele with it, maybe. Raid leader is mostly there for when I'm flooding the board with totems and need a buff after Evolve. Lava burst is inefficient but I don't have access to better mid-range removal, barring something like a kor'kron elite - which now that I think about it does sound better in theory.
Is anyone kind enough to offer feedback? I think I'm learning, at least a little.
Post by: Wiles on June 28, 2016, 03:58:47 pm
If you're going for a midrang-y deck then you'll probably want some board clear in the form of lightning storm.
Another good card to throw in midrange decks is thunderbluff valiant. He is a serious threat and can buff up your totems to better fight for board control. You do have evolve in your deck though, which probably doesn't fit well with the valiant. If you end up cutting evolve running a copy of primal fusion can be pretty good too. I personally don't think evolve is a super strong card because it is pretty random, but it can be a fun card to play. Having a board full of totems turn into a board full of useful minions can be pretty cool. Part of the problem is that it has some anti synergy with some of the stronger shaman cards like flamewreathed faceless and totem golem.
If you have doomhammer it is a very strong weapon and fits well in most shaman decks.
Since you are planning on getting your combo I think it is important to have some more card cycle in your deck so that you can collect the different pieces of it. I'd consider a second mana tide or maybe an ancestral knowledge.
Because you want to throw out some burst damage I'd definitely put in a second rockbiter weapon. It is a good card in general and can be used to help you win board control if you need to.
Argent squire is a nice card to have in shaman decks because it can trade up well with rockbiters or flametongue due to the divine shield. It's a good card for fighting for early game board control.
Another good card I'd consider running a copy of would be bloodlust. It can be another win condition.
I'm not sure about the unbound elemental. I'd play some games and see how it does. If you're not getting a lot of value out of it I would consider cutting it.
I would cut raid leader and psycho-tron, there are cards that would synergise better with your deck.
edit: oh and you mentioned kor'kron elites, they are warrior cards, not shaman cards.
Post by: Darkmere on June 28, 2016, 04:31:24 pm
I used to run bloodlust but was never, ever able to get it on more than 2 minions. Might be worth a try again now that I'm better.
The rest of those are... Well. I'll have to see what I can reasonably dust from elsewhere. There's a few like that Cursed Shade from LoE that I know I'll never play. No idea how I'd afford the real stuff, though. My most efficient pack purchases are Classics, so I don't have lots to work with when I'm still getting 0 dustable cards per pack every 2 days.
Post by: frostshotgg on June 28, 2016, 04:53:21 pm
Post by: Darkmere on June 28, 2016, 04:59:39 pm
But I also have a Golden Captain Greenskin that I'm going to dust out of spite at some point in the future, just want to be REALLY sure what I'm crafting with that 1600 first. I made rash decisions with my starter bonus stuff - don't wanna repeat that so I'm treating it like it's off the table for now.
I forgot to say thanks for the suggestions and advice, so thanks to both of you guys for the suggestions and advice.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 29, 2016, 03:37:51 pm
You do need Finley, the Shaman hero power is awful and getting him is a huge game-changer.
It's a good card in the deck, of course. But you don't "need" it, and you'll play most games without it.
Post by: Jopax on June 29, 2016, 03:41:27 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 29, 2016, 03:49:26 pm
That can be said of any card tho. You can just toss the flamewreath faceless, if you don't draw it, it's useless, same for rockbiter, oh and doomhammer too. Hell, toss half the deck since you probably won't survive to draw it all anyways :V
No, it can't be said of any card.
to elaborate: the idea behind aggro shaman is to put out an overwhelming board by turn 4-5, and to finish your opponent off with burst spells and rockbiter+doomhammer even if you lose your board.
Finley fits in the deck because he usually improves your hero power, allowing you to squeeze out a few extra points of damage where your hero power would otherwise be making not-useful totems. But nothing about Finley works directly with the rest of the deck.
Please think: have you ever heard an aggro shaman say, "Dang, I lost because my Finley was on the bottom of my deck." But you see plenty of freeze mages lose because Ice Block was on the bottom, miracle rogue lose when auctioneers are on the bottom, etc.
Post by: Jopax on June 29, 2016, 04:02:29 pm
And again, every card has an impact that can win or lose the game, even if it's a few points of damage, getting an early body and a ping or something can easily win you the board early on, propelling you into winning the rest of the game.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 29, 2016, 04:09:29 pm
No, but that's probably because I don't talk to people.
And again, every card has an impact that can win or lose the game, even if it's a few points of damage, getting an early body and a ping or something can easily win you the board early on, propelling you into winning the rest of the game.
Of course it does. But that's not the point. The point is that nothing about what the rest of the deck (aggro shaman) is doing needs Finley. Given the rest of the deck, it's probably the best choice for the 30th card. But if you swapped it for a Worgen Infiltrator, the rest of the deck still works.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 29, 2016, 04:39:30 pm
Post by: Neonivek on June 29, 2016, 05:00:06 pm
You do need Finley, the Shaman hero power is awful and getting him is a huge game-changer.
I am kind of surprised that most of his cards aren't even ABOUT making his hero power actually worth it (he would be unique in that respect) with a lot of his unique cards basically being useful totems.
But then again I like to think they didn't know how to make the Shaman at first and thought he was a "All around character" (try out the Shaman starting deck... it is probably the worst starting deck in the game). He suffers BIG TIME from a lack of an identity.
Post by: Leafsnail on June 29, 2016, 07:27:02 pm
You can technically cut any card from a non-combo deck but Finley decides a lot of games single-handedly by pulling the Hunter or Warlock hero power. It's effect is comparable to Justicar Trueheart except it costs 1 mana.
Post by: Darkmere on June 30, 2016, 01:41:51 am
EDIT:
I should have said, it's a preconstructed. You pick a class and it gives you some spells and a deckfull of Shifter Zerus and nothing else.
For what it's worth, Paladin decks actively try to kill you - Anyfin and the 5-mana draw/do damage per mana cost is going to be 5 mana for 1 damage.
As opposed to other class cards - like, you know, flamestrike or pyroblast.
Post by: wereboar on June 30, 2016, 06:33:24 am
Is anyone kind enough to offer feedback? I think I'm learning, at least a little.I don't like Magma Burst here. Swap it for Lightning Storm.
Unbound Elemental is not a good card here.
Your Al'Akir OTK is not realistic. You can not turn a midrange deck into OTK deck just by adding some combo cards. Deck structures are completely different. I'd get rid of Al'Akir if I were you. Thaurissan as well, you simply don't need him.
Psych-o-Tron is not consistent with the purpose of this deck either, ditch it.
Raid Leader is a fairly unconvincing substitute for Thunderbluff Valiant. Not worth space in your deck. I'd recommend putting Direwolf Alpha instead, but I don't even think its worth it either.
Otherwise it's an okay deck. Might need more draw. Craft at least one Lightning Storm. I'd put in a card or two that unlock overloaded crystals. Maybe toss in one bloodlust and see what happens.
Post by: frostshotgg on June 30, 2016, 07:20:56 am
Raid Leader and Psych-o-tron are both pretty horrible, ditch them in favor of Lightning Storms.
If you have them, I would replace the lava burst and unbound elemental with 2x Jewelled Scarab.
Post by: wereboar on June 30, 2016, 08:18:19 am
Now Jeweled Scarabs are actually an interesting touch. Shaman has a lot of very good 3 mana cards. I would try it.
Post by: frostshotgg on June 30, 2016, 09:50:53 am
Post by: wereboar on June 30, 2016, 10:34:02 am
the deck lacks any real way to win past curving out well....which is how midrange decks are supposed to win?
Post by: frostshotgg on June 30, 2016, 11:02:23 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 30, 2016, 11:10:42 am
Basic Shaman is not actually that bad, you have powerful cards like Hex, Fire Elemental and Rockbiter available from the get-go. But the lack of class identity was a problem until WotOG came in and gave Shaman a card that made the Hero Power worth a damn (Thing From Below).
Sort of. Thing From Below is mostly good because of Tuskarr Totemic and Totem Golem. If those cards didn't exist/weren't played, Thing From Below wouldn't be playable (edit: well, maybe it would be. but not in the aggro deck we're talking about). TFB rarely gets much mana discount from the hero power itself. (Which, incidentally, is why you can play Finley and TFB in the same deck; because you have Tuskarr Totemics and Totem Golems and Flametongue Totems).
Quote
You can technically cut any card from a non-combo deck but Finley decides a lot of games single-handedly by pulling the Hunter or Warlock hero power. It's effect is comparable to Justicar Trueheart except it costs 1 mana.
Not "a lot of games" and you're certainly not guaranteed to win just because you got Hunter or Warlock hero power. The question isn't "what does it do when I draw it" but "what % of games will this win me as opposed to card X" (like another Flame Juggler, or maybe a Primal Fusion).
And saying it's "comparable to Justicar Trueheart except it costs 1 mana" is like... really? What does that even mean? It's like saying a Boar is comparable to Leeroy except it costs 1 mana. Seems similar, right? Two charge minions, except one's a smaller body that costs 1 mana.
Except again, the difference is that you wouldn't even use them in remotely the same decks. You use Finley in a deck where your hero power is not part of your strategy (like aggro shaman). You use Justicar in a deck where your hero power is integral to your strategy (Control and Fatigue Warriors, obviously). As a result you can cut Finley from aggro. But you probably don't want to cut Justicar from control warrior.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 30, 2016, 11:33:43 am
In another week I should have the 700 to unlock the second wing. Will have to work out if I should fold the new cards into my decks.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 30, 2016, 12:18:11 pm
Well that was fun. I have pretty shit cards but finally earned the 700 gold to unlock the first wing of the explorer adventure. Neat encounters, very cool bosses. Now working on the class challenges.
In another week I should have the 700 to unlock the second wing. Will have to work out if I should fold the new cards into my decks.
Grats! Yeah, the adventures are quite entertaining and usually have great cards as well.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 30, 2016, 01:51:13 pm
Post by: Wiles on June 30, 2016, 02:05:22 pm
Post by: Arx on June 30, 2016, 02:15:40 pm
Well that was fun. I have pretty shit cards but finally earned the 700 gold to unlock the first wing of the explorer adventure. Neat encounters, very cool bosses. Now working on the class challenges.
In another week I should have the 700 to unlock the second wing. Will have to work out if I should fold the new cards into my decks.
Nice, nice. I'm about eight games away from unlocking the first one myself.
Post by: forsaken1111 on June 30, 2016, 02:36:31 pm
It took quite a long time to do using only basic cards. I ranked up to 20 in the current season and have been mostly just doing tavern brawl and occasional nonranked standard games to complete my daily questsWell that was fun. I have pretty shit cards but finally earned the 700 gold to unlock the first wing of the explorer adventure. Neat encounters, very cool bosses. Now working on the class challenges.
In another week I should have the 700 to unlock the second wing. Will have to work out if I should fold the new cards into my decks.
Nice, nice. I'm about eight games away from unlocking the first one myself.
Post by: wereboar on June 30, 2016, 04:29:52 pm
The cheapest good warrior deck in history.
Post by: endlessblaze on July 02, 2016, 06:41:33 pm
Well that was fun. I have pretty shit cards but finally earned the 700 gold to unlock the first wing of the explorer adventure. Neat encounters, very cool bosses. Now working on the class challenges.
In another week I should have the 700 to unlock the second wing. Will have to work out if I should fold the new cards into my decks.
make sure you eventually grab an emperor tharisaun. ether from Blackrock mountain or crafting.
Post by: forsaken1111 on July 02, 2016, 06:52:14 pm
Post by: EvilTwin on July 03, 2016, 07:29:38 pm
I guess I can't unlock the Naxxramas adventure any more, either with gold or cash? Seems odd that they'd lock it off like that.
If I was you in this situation I'd just watch a bunch of people play that adventure on Youtube, the best parts about the adventures are the dialog and exploiting the mechanics for fun stuff anyway.
Hm, alright. I'll unlock blackrock wing 1 next time I get enough gold.
Whatever you do, definitely get the last wing of League of Explorers atleast at some point in the distant future, it has one boss encounter that actually surprised me a LOT, so I'm not gonna spoil it :)
Post by: frostshotgg on July 03, 2016, 08:44:16 pm
In other news, Trump just started another F2P series, this one is shaping up to be Cthun druid.
Post by: EvilTwin on July 04, 2016, 06:15:10 am
The good news is that Naxx is the least creative adventure. They did it to see if the format would work at all, and then BRM and LoE started to try new things.
In other news, Trump just started another F2P series, this one is shaping up to be Cthun druid.
nope, i watched his stream, now he's going with a pirate warrior :D
Post by: Wiles on July 04, 2016, 09:07:34 am
Post by: Wiles on July 12, 2016, 03:16:43 pm
Here's a picture of the new portrait (http://imgur.com/a/Eu2YA).
Looks like I'm going to be starting a new account to recruit myself and get myself a murloc shaman hero :P
Post by: Arx on July 12, 2016, 04:09:45 pm
Post by: Darkmere on July 13, 2016, 01:17:31 am
Ehm. Yeah, sure, why not
Post by: Wiles on July 13, 2016, 08:48:54 am
Post by: Darkmere on July 20, 2016, 03:19:54 pm
I managed to get in 5 wins for my Priest quest before they took it down and replaced it with 30 Raven Idols. No ragerts, only had the bug for my little panda bolter once in one match, so whatevs.
Not terribly thrilled about the raven idol brawl, though. Takes forever, but I suppose it could be one of the constructed ones again.
Post by: Arx on July 28, 2016, 09:04:25 am
Post by: Criptfeind on July 28, 2016, 09:09:53 am
Post by: Arx on July 28, 2016, 09:11:38 am
Post by: EvilTwin on July 29, 2016, 07:37:47 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV4tq_Pkw1E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RV4tq_Pkw1E)
Post by: Criptfeind on July 29, 2016, 07:58:32 am
Also lol at raven. Straight up 1 mana 2/2, I was sorta wondering when that'd come out. I wonder if it'll be playable... It's no firey win axe, but the druid seems to struggle so hard in the early game anyway they might fit it in.
Post by: Leafsnail on July 29, 2016, 10:31:11 am
e: Firelands Portal seems like a huge deal for new players. Apparently everyone is getting it free and it's very good.
Post by: Criptfeind on August 03, 2016, 11:39:30 am
There's no way to actually beat stormwind, but instead you win when you die.
Pretty cool. Also since you can just do nothing for a few turns and get a 'win' it's a very easy brawl to do your quests in.
There's probably some mal'ganis decks that can go infinitely, which is going to be cool to see.
Post by: frostshotgg on August 03, 2016, 02:58:51 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on August 03, 2016, 03:49:06 pm
It probably ends the game at turn 50 like normal ones do.
Yeah, probably. I guess more 'theoretically' infinite then actual.
Also turns out that stormwind dies if you do 1000 or more damage to it. So I guess if you want max value you gota do one big hit and not 50 turns of smaller ones.
Post by: Darkmere on August 03, 2016, 10:46:20 pm
Post by: endlessblaze on August 03, 2016, 11:08:06 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on August 04, 2016, 08:22:55 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on August 04, 2016, 08:48:30 pm
Apparently blizzard decided they didn't like the slightly more aggressive warrior being the top deck in the meta, so they decided to bump to merely second or third place and replace it with the other top decks, the slightly slower warriors. Although honest I think even dragon warrior will run this one easily enough. Probably.
I guess we can at least fortify ourselves with the knowledge that warrior meta will continue for another two years, so I guess Harrison might be worth crafting. (Although I guess that won't save you here)
Edit: That might be slight exaggeration, but to be honest I expected warrior cards to sorta suck in this one. Seeing one of them being a prime contender for best in the set is quite a surprise.
Edit2: Now that I've posted this I can only assume that it'll somehow turn out to be totally unplayable? But I guess I win ether way.
Post by: Sindain on August 04, 2016, 09:45:30 pm
Yeah I'm really not sure if it will be any good. The low attack and no face thing really kinda restricts it hard. Its big upside is mad leet synergy with heroic strike, too bad the only decks that run heroic strike are aggro decks, and they will never run it due to the no face rule.
Post by: frostshotgg on August 04, 2016, 10:25:01 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on August 05, 2016, 03:49:28 am
Also, hah hah, me and Frostshotgg actually agreeing about something in hearthstone, that's how you know it'll be op as hell.
Edit: Oh. I didn't even notice before, but it's apparently a common? I guess #warriorarenasmatter
Post by: Criptfeind on August 05, 2016, 09:58:05 pm
Well, the rest of the cards have been revealed. I'm... Sad for priest. Their class cards all seem like garbage. The weakest class in the meta is getting easily the worst card in the set? That seems a bit off... Maybe Onyx Bishop will be playable out of the three? But it certainly isn't what they need right now. So I guess they are going to have to be carried by the dragon synergy neutral cards. But I'm unconvinced that the dragon priest won't continue to simply be out shined by warrior decks and other dragon decks. It does seem like priest is probably going to have to wait until the next expansion to crawl out of the gutter.
My other thoughts: Spirit claws might actually be viable in control shaman. I guess they want secret decks to be a thing, cloaked huntress seems really good. With one secret that's tempo, but you can get infinite secrets? I guess the downside is that they are hunter secrets. Nightbane Templar seems good and I hope that dragon paladin becomes a thing. It's not what paladin needed for their own exit from the dumpers sadly though, and their portal seems to suck (really hard... I think maybe the worst portal?). If it was a mana (and a wyrm) less it'd probably do it, as is I'm not convinced yet. Deadly fork wins funniest but probably unplayable card award from me. I guess beast druid is going to be a thing now. The random zoo stuff is interesting but I'm not quuuuuuuite sold on it yet. And Moat lurker is a really cool and unique effect, it seems like they went quite conservative with it's mana cost, but that's okay, I think it miiiiight just see a bit of play anyway, and even though I don't think it'll be competitive quite (at least, that's my guy feeling just because it costs so much mana) I think that this is just the test run of this effect so that it can be priced appropriately in the future.
Edit: Oh, how could I forget, I think arcane golem seems good. Possibly even good enough for the revival of giant/fatigue/echo/duplicate/whateveryouwantacallit mage? Possibly? I think it's very possible for such a mage to cast 10+ spells over the course of the game. And they are pushing that secret synergy pretty hard.
Post by: Wiles on August 05, 2016, 11:11:43 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on August 05, 2016, 11:25:20 pm
Spoiler: Thoughts (click to show/hide)
Post by: Neonivek on August 05, 2016, 11:32:20 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on August 05, 2016, 11:52:48 pm
Post by: Cheeetar on August 06, 2016, 12:56:58 am
Post by: Neonivek on August 06, 2016, 01:00:38 am
But goodness are they just sort of mediocre.
Imagine if Priests got a spell that gives all their minions "Deathrattle: Revive" Or even all the enemy minions :P
There are a lot of ways to "Fix" priests. :P
Post by: Criptfeind on August 06, 2016, 05:06:34 am
Anyway, you think that Maelstorm Portal is going to be playable? We've already got a 1 mana 1 damage aoe for a class that actually runs spell damage, and it's not any good, and I'd say a random 1 mana minion isn't actually worth one mana, so the card is overcosted. If the weapon turns out to not be good enough to run spell damage for, I can't see the 1 damage aoe actually being run. It's just seems a bit too easy to play around and too low impact against most classes. And... Man, I dunno, the weapon might suck, but it's a incredibly powerful card if it's actually active, arguably the most powerful card in the game if you can play it turn one and then have it active. A 1 mana 3/3 weapon... When one of the most important cards in the current meta is a 2 mana 3/2 weapon. It almost makes me think it'll be worth putting spell power in your shaman deck for... Although yeah, that is... Augh I'm conflicted, because spellpower seems to suck a lot, but it also activates your aoes to actually be good. And the weapon is so incredibly powerful with it. So I don't know...
Post by: frostshotgg on August 06, 2016, 01:51:15 pm
As far as shaman goes, mage doesn't run arcane explosion because the control archetypes that would run it have better aoe options. All of shaman's boardclear has some awkwardness about it. Additionally, mage never really ran spell power besides the new 3/2 in tempo or Thalnos in freeze, neither decks of which care about weak board clear. Meanwhile, control shamans always run Thalnos, and there's that magical spell power totem for free. And a random 1-drop turns out to be pretty decent, on average a 1/2 but very frequently better. So it's basically the mage 2/2+arcane explosion card, but affected by spellpower.
Meanwhile, the weapon's problem is that the dream scenario relies on you rolling a 25% totem OR having exactly Thalnos in hand. And you get a better war axe in exactly that scenario, which is great. Every other game, it's a 3 durability weapon gumming up that slot, when shaman has a other high-durability weapons that are more impactful, like Doomhammer.
Post by: Leafsnail on August 06, 2016, 02:16:23 pm
Arcane Explosion actually costs 2, Maelstrom Portal is strictly better. I suspect it will be played, it gives you good initiative and pings in a class that's not very good at dealing 1 damage. It's worse than Ravaging Ghoul but that card is extremely good.
Post by: ATHATH on August 06, 2016, 08:51:57 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on August 06, 2016, 08:56:45 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on August 10, 2016, 11:34:59 am
Post by: Wiles on August 10, 2016, 12:44:12 pm
Post by: Darkmere on August 11, 2016, 02:24:54 am
60% of players are below rank 15 on the ladder, it's not like pandering to a tiny minority here.
And yes, I realize I'll feel different in a year when my collection has grown.
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 11, 2016, 09:13:16 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on August 11, 2016, 09:21:58 pm
I'd love to see Archmage's Apprentice's text printed on an actual card, maybe as a legendary. I'd love to be able to fill my deck with lots of copies of good spells that you normally don't run because they're not great in all matchups, like stocking the deck with polymorphs against Nzoth Pally or filling up on Maelstrom portals against zoo.
Post by: Darkmere on August 12, 2016, 12:33:08 am
Something something I guess that's what it takes to win as priest. blah blah.
The chess fight and mirror fight in wing 1 are pretty fun, though. Just waiting for some horseshit like the minecart ride from LOE.
Post by: Criptfeind on August 12, 2016, 06:05:10 am
Post by: Darkmere on August 12, 2016, 11:58:37 am
Do you mean horseshit in a good way or a bad way? Because I quite enjoyed the minecart ride. Actually quite funnily, my thoughts on completing the wing was basically "The chess game was pretty okay. Not as fun as the minecart ride, but okay."
I hated the troggcart. Seemed like just often enough the "strategy" was "did I draw the board clear combo? If no, lose."
It was also one of the first things I did when I started playing, so I could have just been bad, but I haven't touched it since to find out. I did like the escape with all the traps in it, though.
Post by: Arx on August 12, 2016, 02:00:48 pm
Post by: Wiles on August 13, 2016, 11:45:50 am
Something odd seems to be going on with the quest system though. The dominance (60g, 5 wins) quests seem to be gone. I've mostly been getting 40g quests. On the Hearthstone subreddit people have been noticing the same thing, apparently the only 60g quest people are getting is the tavern brawl one.
I hope it's an error, I'm trying to save up enough gold to get the wings as they come out and only getting 40g quests is going to slow that process down...
Post by: frostshotgg on August 13, 2016, 11:56:13 am
Post by: Darkmere on August 13, 2016, 12:10:14 pm
Blizzard recently said they were considering reducing the occurance rate of "Win X times" quests. I think they may have goofed and totally nuked them on accident instead of making them less common.
Honestly, I didn't like the dominance quests except in brawl, but I did like being able to brawl with classes I have shitall cards for, just to do something different and get more gold. I don't remember seeing people ever complain about the dominance quests being un-fun....
Post by: Arx on August 13, 2016, 01:11:47 pm
Partly my fault though. And I could always reroll.
Post by: penguinofhonor on August 13, 2016, 03:46:20 pm
Post by: Arx on August 14, 2016, 06:10:58 am
Post by: Leafsnail on August 14, 2016, 06:09:09 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 14, 2016, 06:11:49 pm
Post by: Darkmere on August 14, 2016, 07:16:33 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on August 14, 2016, 07:18:44 pm
The class challenges usually aren't that bad, but the priest one being scripted to suicide itself helped out some.
Self silence priest confirmed, just look how bad the AI does it against it. OP. Ben Brode confirmed for basically Jesus+Nostradamus combined with priest being his... Priests.
Post by: Darkmere on August 14, 2016, 07:19:31 pm
Post by: Cheeetar on August 14, 2016, 07:20:49 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on August 14, 2016, 08:02:11 pm
Card Text: You play your opponent's turns for them.new brawl when
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 14, 2016, 08:31:52 pm
the self silence card was pretty good. I used it to remove bad abilities from my creatures such as the ones who can't attack unless they're the only minionThe class challenges usually aren't that bad, but the priest one being scripted to suicide itself helped out some.
Self silence priest confirmed, just look how bad the AI does it against it. OP. Ben Brode confirmed for basically Jesus+Nostradamus combined with priest being his... Priests.
Post by: Darkmere on August 14, 2016, 09:43:19 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on August 15, 2016, 05:38:50 am
the self silence card was pretty good. I used it to remove bad abilities from my creatures such as the ones who can't attack unless they're the only minionThe class challenges usually aren't that bad, but the priest one being scripted to suicide itself helped out some.
Self silence priest confirmed, just look how bad the AI does it against it. OP. Ben Brode confirmed for basically Jesus+Nostradamus combined with priest being his... Priests.
Yeah, that is a pretty powerful card. A four mana 7/7 that you pay two mana for the next turn, all it takes is a two card combo using cards that are absolutely useless outside of the combo? Clearly priest is top tier, what other deck could possibly top that level of power?
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 15, 2016, 06:40:02 am
Yeah, that is a pretty powerful card. A four mana 7/7 that you pay two mana for the next turn, all it takes is a two card combo using cards that are absolutely useless outside of the combo? Clearly priest is top tier, what other deck could possibly top that level of power?I was talking about within the confines of the class challenge. I know it's a shitty card in general. You can shove the sarcasm.
Post by: Criptfeind on August 15, 2016, 06:47:01 am
I personally didn't find the self silence useful in the match up, because I didn't draw it.
Post by: Leafsnail on August 15, 2016, 07:05:14 am
Firelands Portal has been pretty neat for me in testing, it should be a boon for players with limited collections.
Post by: Darkmere on August 15, 2016, 12:27:42 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on August 17, 2016, 12:45:00 pm
Edit: Word of warning, your board gets wiped if you fill it up I guess. That feels like sorta a middle finger that fucked me at just the wrong time. I guess live and learn.
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 17, 2016, 01:48:42 pm
New tavern brawl is out, it's the co-op vs nefarian one. It's decently fun so far, I'm not sure if it's harder then the previous co-op brawls, it seems like it might be a bit. The trick seems to be for the priest to buff the shamans minions, especially the one that gets +1/1 when any card is played. At least, that's how I won.Your board gets wiped if Nefarian doesn't have a slot to go to, so if you have 7 critters he will wipe your whole side. On the other hand, if you have 6 creatures + nefarian he can't summon an explosive rune for your side but he WILL summon one for the other side and then proceed to wipe their shit when the turn ends if that rune has then filled up the other side so your best bet is to have no more than 5 creatures.
Edit: Word of warning, your board gets wiped if you fill it up I guess. That feels like sorta a middle finger that fucked me at just the wrong time. I guess live and learn.
He also does a bit AOE at 160hp and again at 60hp. The 160 one is like 4-6 damage to everything while the 60hp does 30!!! damage to every minion and heals himself for 30. Don't summon stuff when he's close to 60.
Post by: Darkmere on August 18, 2016, 01:26:56 am
I managed to bumble through it as priest the first time for a win, but I think my partner was a little new, too. We won, though.
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 18, 2016, 07:04:24 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on August 18, 2016, 10:03:15 am
Post by: Darkmere on August 18, 2016, 01:18:11 pm
Post by: Arx on August 18, 2016, 01:25:14 pm
Why do you think it's awful/bad-out-of-the-gate?
Post by: Leafsnail on August 18, 2016, 01:33:48 pm
Post by: Darkmere on August 18, 2016, 02:21:33 pm
Thijs has been playing a discard warlock to pretty decent effect. It's not actually particularly bad. I mean, it's not brokenly good either, but that's not really a problem.
Why do you think it's awful/bad-out-of-the-gate?
Variance, mostly. There's a good chance you discard your ace and have to fork over 3 mana for silverware golem anyway and all that. The solution would be to make sure all minions are equally playable so you don't care what gets discarded - but that's zoo.
I'm fine with some RNG or one-offs like Yogg (I don't personally care about tournament balance), but it's wrapping your whole game in multiple layers of RNG for... a purpose I don't really understand.
We also don't have the best card for it yet. The class challenge version is probably misbuilt.
The class challenge has Malch's imp. It's exactly as survivable as you'd expect 3-health minions to be, so expect 2 cards from it, tops, if you draw one in time to use it and it's not discarded when you're forced to make a tempo play.
Post by: frostshotgg on August 18, 2016, 03:01:51 pm
Post by: Wiles on August 18, 2016, 04:07:52 pm
This weeks tavern brawl was pretty fun, I like it when they put the effort in and make something that feels like it sets itself apart from regular hearthstone. I don't expect something this cool every week, but I look forward to what they have in store for the future.
Post by: Leafsnail on August 18, 2016, 07:14:08 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on August 18, 2016, 07:53:38 pm
Actually writing that out, I wonder if anyfinn could splash some dragon and maybe some menagerie and make a midrange deck... Eh...
Post by: Darkmere on August 22, 2016, 01:50:03 am
I'm running a bizarre totem/spellpower/token Shaman midrange deck (which I actually removed Flamewreathed from...) just seeing how far I can get in ladder. Got a winstreak to my current best (rank 13 and 2 stars. Don't laugh...) by bluffing a zoolock into my Maelstrom portal, then playing conservative with a greedy Yogg druid until Yogg fatigued him into submission for me. The last match I beat a resurrect priest by polluting his graveyard with frogs and just bloodlusting past his Ragnaros.
The best parts were where the guy tried to clear me with Wild Pyro and rez - which pulled a frog, which immediately died - and brushing aside Sylvanas/Rag. Those cards infuriated me when I started, and beating them with a deck that only has a Thalnos that I didn't even draw feels awesome.
Related, after Zerus, a Golden Greenskin, Al'akir, Ragnaros Lightlord, I FINALLY got a decent legendary from a pack. I kinda think Thalnos is a little undervalued because he's not flashy, but that's a solid card all around for at least 4 classes. Can't wait to combo him with Spirit Claws.
Post by: frostshotgg on August 22, 2016, 06:43:22 pm
Post by: Darkmere on August 22, 2016, 09:48:58 pm
Not enough paladin cards to run Lightlord but I'm definitely keeping that one.
I'm two Call of the Wilds and a couple common traps away from a good midrange/secret hunter deck though. Probably go for that one next.
Post by: Criptfeind on August 23, 2016, 06:15:46 am
Big downside that.
Post by: frostshotgg on August 23, 2016, 10:08:22 am
Post by: Criptfeind on August 23, 2016, 01:30:53 pm
If control warrior takes back the reigns from dragon warrior, I could see N'zothadin getting a boost from that bigger then anything it's going to get from the actual cards in the expansion. I don't see that as super likely, but possible.
Post by: frostshotgg on August 23, 2016, 02:26:08 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on August 23, 2016, 02:49:51 pm
If the meta slows down, sure, then the deck will be good. But honestly we've been saying that sorta thing about a lot of decks since like... Blackrock. And I feel like this adventure doesn't have the tools to cause that.
Post by: Darkmere on August 23, 2016, 05:16:50 pm
Anyone have experience with Aggro shaman? I've been told replacing one Doomhammer with Al'akir isn't bad value, which seems legit and would help me craft more aggro minions to round out a ladder-climbing deck.
Post by: Criptfeind on August 23, 2016, 05:22:25 pm
Edit: A lot of times you can lose the board but still get the 16 face damage out of doomhammer, a looming clock that closes out a lot of games against things like rogues or other shamans (and sometimes warriors.) Which Al'akir isn't going to be able to do, but other times you use doomhammer for the quick 10 damage burst to win, which Al'akir does 12, so that's okay. Also in warriorstone oozes are not totally unused, so I guess in some rare cases Al'akir will save you from that.
Post by: Darkmere on August 23, 2016, 05:31:10 pm
I think I'm close to a ceiling on the bizarre totemy midrange thing I'm running at rank 11, hoping aggro might be a little more consistent to push towards 10 or *crosses fingers* 5 before the season ends. I can only rely on surprise for so long, after all.
Post by: Criptfeind on August 23, 2016, 05:39:33 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on August 23, 2016, 08:56:22 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on August 23, 2016, 09:04:46 pm
All and all, he's a crappy substitute but I'd say he is at least a substitute. Doomhammer is an important card and if you had like, dragon warrior or token druid you could probably get a higher win rate with one of those then with a 1 doom hammer aggro shaman... Buttttt if you're a new player one doomhammer aggro shaman MIGHT be better then your, well, no offense, totem shaman weird deck thing.
Edit: I mean, that said. Doomhammer is a very important card and if you wanta play aggro shaman I would make it a priority.
Post by: Darkmere on August 23, 2016, 09:19:40 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on August 23, 2016, 09:21:27 pm
Post by: Darkmere on August 23, 2016, 09:29:50 pm
I've already fucked up big a couple times since I started playing (crafting priest cards because I thought they were fun was the highlight, apparently), so I tried asking. I don't have the spare cash to throw at gaming right now, so my options are limited.
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 23, 2016, 09:41:36 pm
Post by: Darkmere on August 24, 2016, 02:16:30 am
If anyone was curious This (http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/618420-totemic-spells-experiment) is the deck I was experimenting with originally. Looking over it, some things still need changing and it lacks a bit of direction, but I had fun with it most of the time.
Now, I'm trying out a spellpower deck (http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/607399-spell-damage-top-100-legend-guide) since I have everything except the Twilight Hammer. I subbed in a stormforged axe for it for now, and might try spirit claws + Twilight or Doomhammer once claws are released. It's taking some getting used to but it's still fairly effective down in the rank 12 gutter.
Post by: Criptfeind on August 25, 2016, 12:31:44 pm
Babbling books voice lines are pretty cool though.
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 25, 2016, 12:41:31 pm
For anyone who hasn't tried it, you pick a class and you have a deck composed of nothing but 2/3 pirates. Each turn, instead of drawing, you get to choose between 3 totally fucking random cards. They'll be a mix of general cards and class cards for your class. It's like an ongoing arena battle, but you make your deck on the fly and it could well never end because you only draw from your deck if you have a spell or ability that says to.
Post by: Criptfeind on August 25, 2016, 12:44:23 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 25, 2016, 12:47:09 pm
Uh. I think it's just generally middle of the line rng brawl, which I sorta like because doing quests in brawls like this are pretty easy. This is the first time I've played this specific one because I managed to miss the previous two times we had this one, but it doesn't seem to special ether way to me to be honest despite that.Ahh ok. I've never played this before.
Post by: Darkmere on August 25, 2016, 03:43:24 pm
I don't think I'll play it much for risk of getting sick of it.
Post by: Leafsnail on August 25, 2016, 05:04:50 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on August 25, 2016, 06:33:31 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on August 25, 2016, 06:51:44 pm
Post by: Darkmere on August 25, 2016, 09:49:34 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on August 26, 2016, 09:09:32 am
My first brawl match this week was okay, but after that it starts to feel like a looooooooooooooooooooooooong coin toss.
To an extent. The main issue is knowing how to get maximum value out of your cards, plays, and trading choices. If the overall RNG favors your opponent, they can still lose by playing poorly. True extremes where you're simply doomed to lose are not that common.
It is a long, slow one, though. Especially since turns 1-2-3-4 are the same/boring.
Post by: Arx on August 29, 2016, 03:57:56 am
I've been laddering a bit with a homebrew zoolock. I feel kinda dirty, but at least it isn't a straight netdeck.
Post by: Criptfeind on August 31, 2016, 11:22:58 am
Post by: Darkmere on August 31, 2016, 03:21:33 pm
6 losses in a row where the enemy got nothing but firelands/buff/ironforge portals preventing me from developing a single minion.
Just give me a fucking coin toss and be done with it.
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 31, 2016, 03:36:27 pm
Post by: Darkmere on August 31, 2016, 03:52:21 pm
Post by: forsaken1111 on August 31, 2016, 03:57:21 pm
I managed to get one win so far. in 10 games.I got a win my second game, only because I happened to get an early light well that kept healing all my shit which infuriated my opponent into quitting.
So I have my win for the week, fuck this brawl.
Post by: frostshotgg on August 31, 2016, 04:02:22 pm
Post by: Darkmere on August 31, 2016, 04:36:08 pm
*Unstable portal gives opponent Tirion on turn 4.
*A full game of about 20 turns where nothing I got from any portal had more than 4 attack.
*Get opponent to 15 health -> he gets nothing but moonglade and ironforge portals that summon taunts, I quit when they were at 30 armor/30 health.
*Other guy topdecks 3 firelands portals in a row, because I was ahead on board.
*I had a kvaldir raider + silvermoon portal, every turn opponent gets the exact amount of attack he needs to remove it in a single turn - regardless of what portal they play - for 6 turns.
*7 taunts in a row for my opponent.
This is the worst brawl I've seen since I started playing. By a huge margin. I'm seriously thinking about rerolling the quest to 40g and being done with it.
EDIT: Forgot one, there was a game where Unstable portal gave me Milhouse. I played him and conceded, nothing else I could play til turn 4 so that was pointless.
Post by: Wiles on September 01, 2016, 07:23:21 pm
The last wing was okay but none of the battles were as interesting as the earlier wings. Netherspite's AI was pretty bad, he'd attack with his hero and then cast spells that buffed his attack when he couldn't attack again. Maybe he's smarter in heroic, but I haven't tried that yet.
I haven't been playing hearthstone a whole lot so I have not played with many of the new cards. The only one I've been using in my decks so far is Barnes. He seems pretty strong, maybe even a little too strong. He has been the star of the game most times I played him. The last two cards he pulled for me were Ragnaros and Tirion. If you can protect baby rag for a couple of turns it is pretty hard to lose.
Post by: Darkmere on September 01, 2016, 09:02:46 pm
I've actually been getting some good use out of Wicked Witchdoctor, which I thought would be a dead card. All in all there's a lot of pretty decent cards, unlike the "everything's trash" hubbub people were going on about beforehand. Kinda what I expected, but I'm glad it happened.
Post by: Sindain on September 02, 2016, 12:18:49 am
Though I only played about 5 games with discardlock before I got bored, so i could still be wrong.
Played a lot more games of Zoo with 2x doomgaurd/ malchezaar's/ soulfire/silverware golem. That went much better. Malchezaar's imp is a very good card and definitely helps the additional discard cards work. Still not sure if silverware golem is worth the slots, it has a much more narrow use than malchezaar's imp does.
On the suggestion of some random guys on the reddit, I tried running Malchezaar himself in Zoo. Predictably, it did not work out so well. Was pretty hilarious though, one highlight was me winning vs a hunter on the backs of Rag and Bolt Ramshield.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 02, 2016, 08:03:05 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 02, 2016, 08:31:03 am
Zoo with extra discard cards seems like the best way to build the deck, you don't want to be adding random bad cards like Succubus probably.
Yeah, this. Just having a free 3/3 after you Soulfire/Doomguard is a big enough improvement to zoo to make some of the cards worthwhile. You could probably switch Voidwalker to Malch's Imp as well because there's little upside to the Taunt, but plenty of upside for the draws.
Things like Fist of Jarraxus are probably never going to work, because they're just too clunky.
Post by: Sindain on September 02, 2016, 08:40:35 am
Post by: frostshotgg on September 02, 2016, 08:58:55 am
Post by: Criptfeind on September 02, 2016, 09:02:03 am
I'm still totally unsold on the silverware golem, even with soulfire. Getting to tempo it out early with soulfire is very unreliable, and having a three mana 3/3 weighing down your hand as zoo is prettyyyy awful. I mean, imp gang boss and darkshire councilman, the other three mana cards, are some of the key cards in the deck. The golem is unbelievably bad next to them unless you ether get it off soulfire (unreliable) or off the doomguard (kinda niche case, and even if you're dropping it on turn five that means you've given up flexability for the past two turns, not great.)
One sorta big thing that's keeping me from liking all the discard cards even more has been the traditional split between doomguard and soulfire zoo. Typically, there's been two zoo variants, the ones that run leeroy jenkins and soulfire, and the ones that run doomguard, I've seen them swap back and fourth as the main zoo archtype for quite a while, but I think it's actually quite rare to see soulfire and doomguard in the same deck, at least, that's been my experience. Since they have negative synergy together when used for burst. If you're running the imp, I think you're encouraged to run both of them (and lordy if you're running other discard cards you're practically required to run both of them), which I think is actually a downgrade from running one or the other. Could the imp be worth it? I think it's probably worth it with soulfire. I think it might not be worth it with doomguard. Edit: Well, actually idk. Maybe with doomguard. Very maybe.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 02, 2016, 09:34:06 am
Post by: frostshotgg on September 02, 2016, 10:18:09 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 02, 2016, 10:22:42 am
The problem with that plan is that you've now paid 2 mana for 2/2 of stats, on a single body, with no real upside. All three of those are negatives in zoo's eyes. With board clears being garbage, and not coming out that early regardless, you're heavily incentivized to spread out the stats as much as possible, part of the reason forbidden ritual is good. On top of that, 2/2 is pretty below the curve if there's not some big upside to it, like getting a 3rd PO.
Yeah, I have to agree with all of this. Even if you could guarantee making a 3/5 body on turn 2, that's not really better than just a 1/3, a just-summoned 2/2, and a discovered 1-mana card.
Post by: Criptfeind on September 02, 2016, 10:34:33 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 02, 2016, 10:50:55 am
Maybe demonfire will get a reprint with "draw a card" on it to bring it in line with mark of y'shaarj and purify. Then that might be more worth considering.
I mean are you taking off the "or do 2 damage" thing? That's not really a reprint; it's a totally different card. Maybe if it were "give a demon +2/+2 and do 2 damage to a random character."
Post by: Criptfeind on September 02, 2016, 11:05:34 am
Post by: Leafsnail on September 02, 2016, 04:11:01 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on September 04, 2016, 02:17:22 am
Post by: Criptfeind on September 09, 2016, 09:57:03 am
Post by: frostshotgg on September 09, 2016, 12:25:35 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on September 09, 2016, 12:31:55 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on September 09, 2016, 12:37:24 pm
A big part of the reason the meta has been pure tempo since Secret Pally is because there's no punishment for playing your entire hand. It might suck for the tempo player to get flamestriked, but that should be the risk they take for having 7 minions out.
Post by: Darkmere on September 09, 2016, 02:22:57 pm
I wonder if blizzard will ever print board clears which don't suck cocks. The only non-classic boardclear that wasn't horrible was lightbomb and that's gone now.
What's your criteria on this scale? Rather, what kind of a board clear would you like to see?
Post by: frostshotgg on September 09, 2016, 08:30:06 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on September 09, 2016, 09:05:17 pm
Post by: Darkmere on September 09, 2016, 09:21:09 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on September 09, 2016, 09:26:53 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on September 09, 2016, 09:37:07 pm
Maelstrom Portal is good in aggro shaman.
Meh. I'm still not totally convinced. Zoo is pretty fucked right now. In my personal experience at least, it's not amazingly hard to hold your minions above one health. And aggro can't really afford to gamble for a 1/4th totem every turn. And it's often too late by turn seven for the drake+portal. I think we're going to see a more midrange style of shaman that uses the portals better, but for the actual aggro deck I'm not sure it'll still be in next month.
Certainly any time zoo rises though shamans are going to put the portal in and fuck them back down to tier 2. Which I guess can qualify it as a good card even if it's not generally run!
Post by: Darkmere on September 10, 2016, 12:05:56 am
Post by: Criptfeind on September 10, 2016, 08:14:22 am
That said, I can say from a bit of personal experience, dropping a flame juggler on an empty board isn't that rare a thing to do, so it really wouldn't be a strict upgrade... Hum, tough. Maybe I should try it out next time I get a shaman quest.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 10, 2016, 08:18:56 am
Post by: Arx on September 10, 2016, 11:47:59 am
Post by: Criptfeind on September 13, 2016, 08:25:57 pm
Edit: I mean, there's quite a few decks that are "if they get a good two drop they'll be good." So I guess that's not saying much. Still, dragon paladin in particular was something I didn't really believe in compared to anyfinn and N'zoth.
Edit2: Also pretty much all dragon decks are set to die in the next standard year without a lot of tlc when blackrock moves out, I'm not 100% sure what their schedual for stuff is, but I think that the next expansion (and possibly the next adventure) will be part of this year, which means they could go pretty heavy into dragons since they'll need something to survive going forward AND even if they are op for a few months they'll be autobalanced soon enough.
Post by: Darkmere on September 13, 2016, 08:58:40 pm
I do hope they support dragon decks after BRM rotates, I've got a lot of cards I can't justify buying BRM just to use.
Post by: miauw62 on September 14, 2016, 10:01:43 am
Post by: PanH on September 14, 2016, 10:05:13 am
Post by: Criptfeind on September 14, 2016, 10:13:59 am
For some reason the card game has oceans in it, so my main accounts in NA, although I do have an EU account past the tutorial if you wanta add me. (Criptfeind#1207) I'd pretty much never be on though.
In the process of checking that I did in fact have an EU account I opened a pack I've had sitting in my EU account for like, 8 months or something and got
Edit: Incidentally, this weeks tavern brawl is pick three cards and you get 10 of each in your deck.
Post by: Darkmere on September 14, 2016, 11:16:20 am
But yeah, if you're using the decks they give you on a new account, delete them immediately and look up better Basic decks online somewhere. The starter decks are truly awful.
Post by: Criptfeind on September 14, 2016, 11:47:19 am
Anyway, playing the brawl some. Discard lock seems to finally found it's home. It seems more reliable then the metal tooth leaper. On the other hand it looses to mill druid which metal tooth leaper beats.
Post by: Darkmere on September 14, 2016, 01:58:00 pm
Gonna try Innervate/barnes/blood of the ancient one later on. Blood of the Ancient was one of the first Epics I opened, so I have a bit of a soft spot for it. Not a great deck idea, maybe good for a laff.
Unrelated, I can't express enough how eager I am for Flamewanker to rotate to wild.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 14, 2016, 04:32:57 pm
Malch Imp / Fist of Jarraxus / Soulfire also seems pretty good but I haven't tried it yet.
Post by: Arx on September 16, 2016, 05:24:41 am
Meh, I just started playing this game and in real games i've literally done nothing but lose. Not having a ton of fun.
It plays surprisingly little like MtG, in my experience. And yeah, the basic decks are horrific. You might want to try casting your eye over a couple of decklists to get an idea of what the differences are.
Edit: Tyrande is the new Priest skin, Noxious likely to have stroke.
Post by: miauw62 on September 16, 2016, 12:41:13 pm
Are you playing in casual or ranked? You should probably be able to get to rank 20 in ranked mode fairly easily, as you can't loose ranks until you get there so there's not really any competition (everyone in rank 25 to 21 is going to be ether very new, very casual, or very bad). Once you do get there though, yeah, it can be hard for a new player, as is perhaps the way of games like this it typically just becomes harder and harder over time to be a new player (although standard years helps a bit). This weeks tavern brawl opens in an hour, most tavern brawls are mostly aimed towards more casual random fun and you don't need a collection (although not every brawl is like that). For some stupendously stupid reason you need to be at least level 20 in one of your classes in order to enter the brawl though, which you may or may not have (I'd suggest finding a class you like and focusing on it to get to said level 20... Honestly some weeks I don't play anything but the tavern brawl, but I still do all my quests and such, so it might be worth getting at least that far and seeing if you like playing the brawls.)I can't do Tavern Brawls yet. and I didnt realise the starter decks were so bad.
For some reason the card game has oceans in it, so my main accounts in NA, although I do have an EU account past the tutorial if you wanta add me. (Criptfeind#1207) I'd pretty much never be on though.
In the process of checking that I did in fact have an EU account I opened a pack I've had sitting in my EU account for like, 8 months or something and gotatwo legendaries. Whereas in my main account my last 60 packs have had no legendaries at all. Thanks blizzard. Really rubbing it in.
Edit: Incidentally, this weeks tavern brawl is pick three cards and you get 10 of each in your deck.
Post by: Darkmere on September 17, 2016, 01:27:58 am
Other than that though, this one has been surprisingly fun, but I wasn't around for Pick 2 so I can't say if it's better or worse.
Also, picked up the filthy newb pack +8 more packs, got Grom for the guaranteed so that's 2/9 classic class legendaries I have now. Yay for progress... Nothing of note in the packs though. pile o dust.
edit: numbers is hard
Post by: Arx on September 17, 2016, 01:44:09 am
Post by: miauw62 on September 17, 2016, 04:03:51 am
Also, what do I spend my gold on? Arena or packs?
Post by: Arx on September 17, 2016, 04:31:38 am
Post by: Criptfeind on September 17, 2016, 08:49:00 am
Edit: that said, there's something to be said for classic cards, since they never go outa style and a lot of core things (at least, for the classically good classes, sorry shaman) are in the classic packs.
Also adventures are a thing. I think they are not quite "worthwhile" as far as gold/cards go, but they are somewhat fun and at least you know what you're going to get, if you working towards a deck saving up for the adventure that it needs could be a good way to go about it.
Post by: Darkmere on September 17, 2016, 11:07:30 am
Adventures tend to have really solid cards but you kinda need to have a deck plan that can use them. Kara is weird and not terribly helpful on its own that I can tell, unless you want to play resurrect priest. LoE is awesome but it's rotating out of standard in a few months so you may just wanna buy the first wing to keep it available to you, sometime before it goes. Same with BRM.
Classic packs are evergreen, so for a new player they're always a good bet. Old Gods cards are very solid for hunters, so if you like those it may be worth buying a few here and there and saving up for Kara wing 2.
There's very little in The Grand Tournament worth playing, don't buy those packs. save dust to craft what you want, instead.
Post by: Arx on September 17, 2016, 01:21:43 pm
After that, it's only incredibly annoying because the whole thing is heavily RNG influenced so it's likely you'll get your ass handed to you unless you were offered mage and all the good mage cards.
Arena is its own format, and you should play it like that. It's more luck-influenced than constructed, but there are people that average seven wins.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 17, 2016, 03:45:34 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on September 17, 2016, 03:50:34 pm
Top arena players generally have much higher winrates than top constructed players, I'd say it's less luck based.
Although I'd agree that there's a lot of skill involved in the arena, I think that top constructed players would have a much higher win rate if they reset their rank back down to 20 after half to a dozen games.
Post by: Darkmere on September 17, 2016, 09:14:08 pm
I'm not saying there isn't skill involved, but the last run I drafted a deck with something like 6 4-drops and had a draw that locked me out of playing anything til turn 3. I lost to someone who played, turn for turn, constructed aggro shaman. This isn't something that makes me want to play it more.
Post by: Arx on September 18, 2016, 12:11:12 am
Arena's just a tempo game with a random shit deck, where as you go along the odds of fighting something closely resembling a constructed deck rise substantially.
I'm not saying there isn't skill involved, but the last run I drafted a deck with something like 6 4-drops and had a draw that locked me out of playing anything til turn 3. I lost to someone who played, turn for turn, constructed aggro shaman. This isn't something that makes me want to play it more.
No offense intended, but this kind of comes off as being mostly that you're bad at drafting. If your deck is bad once, yeah, unlucky. If your deck is bad every time, it's a sign that you're doing something wrong.
Post by: Darkmere on September 18, 2016, 01:56:28 am
I've had 5-win runs before - when I got mage and all the right rolls. Not a pro, but competent provided I'm offered something useful.
Post by: Arx on September 18, 2016, 05:26:40 am
And yes, sometimes your choices suck. My current arena deck has five (!) epics in it, but one's Twilight Guardian (I have all of three dragons in the deck), one's Southsea Captain (literally a 3/3 for 3), and one's BGH (which kills... North Sea Kraken. And I think that's about it for common arena cards). Just because a 3/3 for 3 was better than the other choices, a 2/6 for 4 was better, and BGH's ability is marginally more useful than the other options. In part because I saw Arcane Giant two or three times, and Clockwork Giant at least once.
Sometimes you get a situation where the choices are all poor, but there's usually one that's less poor than the rest.
I'm currently 2-0 with Warlock, which isn't exactly a super OP arena class last I checked.
Post by: Sindain on September 18, 2016, 10:13:59 am
Blindly using a tierlist will give you a weaker deck than a skilled drafter, simply because the tierlist doesn't take deck synergies or composition into account. Frankly, you are not as good at drafting as adwcta or merps.
To be fair, heartharena most certainly does take both deck synergies and compositions into account.
Post by: Arx on September 18, 2016, 10:25:26 am
Post by: Leafsnail on September 18, 2016, 10:53:48 am
Post by: Criptfeind on September 18, 2016, 11:06:20 am
Post by: Darkmere on September 18, 2016, 12:08:15 pm
I wish there was a practice arena or draft skirmish mode, because I fully admit the fact that I have to pay to get in a run tilts me more than it should and makes me a shittier player, but the option to toss someone else my draft deck and spectate them playing it would be extremely helpful.
Post by: Arx on September 18, 2016, 12:28:18 pm
Similarly, two of my friends and I play arena by committee every now and then for shenanigans, and we see a fair few close games.
I recommend looking at some of Trump's Trump Cards arena videos. He drafts, generally explaining something of the reasoning, and plays, much the same.
Edit: Swing turns in arena: Opponent plays BogChamp, I have to trade my 8 power board into it. Bam. Neutral flamestrike. Admittedly, Warlock is a class with very little hard removal in general and especially not in arena, where my 'removal' is Demonfire and Imp-losion, but nonetheless. It'll be true of many classes in many cases.
Post by: Jiokuy on September 18, 2016, 06:25:32 pm
Refrence:
https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/3sj3a7/a_farewell_to_heartharena/
Post by: Criptfeind on September 21, 2016, 11:57:09 am
Post by: Darkmere on September 21, 2016, 01:04:19 pm
Totally outskilled one match by getting about 10/10 stats on the board turn 1. Totes legit u guize.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 21, 2016, 02:39:07 pm
Post by: Darkmere on September 21, 2016, 10:55:37 pm
*Princess Huhuran
*Antonidas
*Rag, Lightlord
*Al'Akir
*Grom Hellscream
*Bloodmage Thalnos
*King Mukla (vanilla)
I think I'm basically 2 Call of the Wilds off from a solid midrange hunter deck. Other than that I don't really have a short-term goal.
Current meta too fast to craft Firelord Rag? Sylvanas seems to be the best on average evergreen card for the most decks and all that. I JUST reset my pity timer (38 classic packs) so I probably won't be getting new legs for a while. Thoughts? I'll probably save up for a while before I work on any new decks, but opinions are welcome.
Post by: Criptfeind on September 21, 2016, 11:29:25 pm
Current meta too fast to craft Firelord Rag?
Old school rag does seem some play in dragon warrior, which even though it's not quite up to it's pre-karazan heights yet is I think a favorite of mine to shake out to be somewhere on top of the meta. (and even in the current not quite stale meta it's still a high quality deck.) if you really like the card that deck might be worth looking into, otherwise, yeah, rag is rarely appropriate. Not to mention with Grom you've got the other most expensive card in the deck (well, some of them run deathwing, not the new one ether! But I wouldn't make such a card myself tbh.)
Like you say though, sylvanas is a lot more general use, although I still wouldn't craft her without a deck in mind.
Post by: PanH on September 21, 2016, 11:32:12 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on September 21, 2016, 11:55:59 pm
Speaking of which I think the God of Death is a serious consideration at this point
Post by: PanH on September 22, 2016, 12:31:10 am
Post by: miauw62 on September 22, 2016, 12:58:26 am
This brawl is bad but it is a good way for new players to get their quests done.I guess I should put some more effort into grinding my hunter to 20, then, despite all of my quests being shit.
Post by: wereboar on September 22, 2016, 01:03:04 am
Sylvanas goes first in my book simply because it's good for more deck archetypes than the other two. If you're a big dragon fan, I guess you can go for Ysera before Rag.
Another handy legendary is Thalnos, but I probably wouldn't craft it. You're lucky you got it from a pack.
Post by: Darkmere on September 22, 2016, 01:22:04 am
The god of death ?
Assuming that's Yogg'Saron (his entry quote). I'm torn on that one just because it's a bonus "maybe I'll win anyway" hail mary as opposed to sylvanas which comes earlier and has a bit more general use.
I also don't have more than 1 wing of BRM, so no flamewankers for tempo mage or a big chunk of the dragons for a dragon deck. Not sure I can justify spending the gold on something that rotates out soon vs saving for a lot of packs when the next expansion launches. Ysera isn't really on the list for me for that reason.
Another handy legendary is Thalnos, but I probably wouldn't craft it. You're lucky you got it from a pack.
Yeah, he's great on my spellpower midrange shaman. There's basically no bad outcome for playing him, it was a nice pull.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 22, 2016, 08:30:47 am
Assuming that's Yogg'Saron (his entry quote). I'm torn on that one just because it's a bonus "maybe I'll win anyway" hail mary as opposed to sylvanas which comes earlier and has a bit more general use.Yogg is actually a lot more than that, and it's critical to the new tier 1 spell based Druid decks. Basically if you think about it almost every spell in the game is:
- Neutral: As in, whether it's beneficial depends on what it hits like direct damage, the effect is symmetrical like board clears or the spell will probably do nothing like forbidden cards. Note that if you play Yogg onto a board where your opponent has a bunch of stuff (which is the normal mode) the targeted damage spells are slightly positive, since they'll mostly hit hostile minions.
- Positive: Always good for you - spells that summon minions, secrets, card draw, armor gain, removal that can only target enemy minions and so on.
- A mixture of the two above categories - for example some of the portals from Karazhan have a neutral targeted element followed by a positive minion summoning part.
The only real exceptions I can think of are Mulch, Soulfire, Naturalize (which are all a negative effect attached to a neutral one) and Astral which is the one consistently bad outcome. Since these are so hugely outnumbered by positive effects each spell Yogg casts is gaining you a significant amount of value, and when you stack enough of those together you get a card that can consistently swing even the most hopeless situations back in your favour.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BfZ8VpPzz0
Post by: Darkmere on September 22, 2016, 11:09:19 am
In general terms, there's 3 gamestates: You're ahead, you're behind, and the board is roughly even.
If you're ahead and you play Yogg, you either win more or run the risk of clearing your own board/backstabbing you in the face. It's not a good risk to take.
If the board is neutral, the benefits are - on average - positive. You can generally rely on Yogg to clear the board and draw you cards, but you can still get the pyroblast to the face and die or draw into fatigue. Flip a coin and hail mary.
If the board is bad and you're behind, Yogg can either make you win, even up the board, or kill you anyway. This is the best average list - killing you didn't alter the games outcome.
That's a huge pile of variance compared to Sylvanas, who always demands an answer and doesn't require spells to fuel the card. Even if you're ahead Sylv can only help you.
Post by: PanH on September 22, 2016, 11:15:58 am
Yogg can also pyroblast you in the face and lose the game for you.This is only if you consider a single game. The effect it has on most games is positive enough to outweigh the few ones where it's bad (especially considering it's mostly used as a comeback mechanic).
Also, Sylvanas if you're behind won't help you. They'll just go full face.
Post by: frostshotgg on September 22, 2016, 11:46:13 am
Yogg is a mulligan for the game. Unless your board is several minions, or you're out of cards to draw and about to fatigue, he's almost always a net gain, sometimes gamewinningly so. Sometimes he just straight up ends the game by buffing himself and charging into the opponent's face or something. You play him when you're done with the game one way or another and that's that.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 22, 2016, 12:58:23 pm
The only times you wouldn't play it is if you have a healthy board lead or if you're running out of cards.
Post by: Darkmere on September 22, 2016, 03:07:16 pm
So, Legendary for a single deck. if I did that, I'd probably craft Malygos for rogue/shaman shenanigans. I may just sit on the dust for a while longer, won't have the chance to play HS too much til December in any case.
Unrelated, anyone tried menagerie/zoo druid since Kara came out? I don't think it's competitive really, but it's fun for quests in casual.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 22, 2016, 03:31:58 pm
https://tempostorm.com/hearthstone/meta-snapshot/standard/2016-09-18
Post by: Criptfeind on September 22, 2016, 05:36:05 pm
Edit: But yeah yog turns out to just be pretty good in the right deck.
Post by: Wiles on September 22, 2016, 07:36:34 pm
http://www.vicioussyndicate.com/vs-data-reaper-report-19/
Post by: frostshotgg on September 22, 2016, 09:37:52 pm
Post by: Darkmere on September 22, 2016, 10:24:42 pm
Tempo mage with good draws will slap aggo shaman around a bit, but otherwise they're kinda screwed. That or the tempo mages I went against got bad draws, which is entirely possible.
Post by: frostshotgg on September 22, 2016, 10:42:40 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on September 23, 2016, 07:42:07 am
Post by: Sindain on September 23, 2016, 07:51:50 am
Though Vs does only take into account ladder matches, so the power rankings of certain decks can be quite different at the tournament level due to bans and such.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 23, 2016, 10:26:53 am
vS uses data from lots of games, not exactly sure how they gather it. That means stuff like new players who have no idea what they're doing are included which could skew the data for harder decks. Tempostorm uses experts who evaluate matchups based on their experience, to my understanding. So there could be bias involved.Yeah both methods have their downsides. VS will always be heavily biased towards easy to play midrange decks because most people won't know how to play decks like Spell Druid properly. Tempostorm could be (and quite often is) just incorrect.
Post by: Criptfeind on September 25, 2016, 10:18:26 am
They are released a prediction on another tournament that's ongoing (in about 30 minutes). Although it's a lot less strong of a prediction (in the last case they gave the winner a 20% chance, here it's only 14%, almost even with everyone else.)
Interesting stuff to me at least.
Edit: Turns out their predictions were almost all wrong.
Post by: Criptfeind on September 28, 2016, 02:46:40 pm
Rockbiter goes to 2 mana, combo too strong for the discount I guess. I think this is a fair nerf and it'll still sorta be playable. It's normally not THAT hard to hold off for another turn before you do the combo, but of course it'll knock a few close wins out.
Tuskarr Totemic can only summon basic totems, fair enough, Tuskarr was always sorta the poster boy for the bad side of rng. I'm not sure if it'll still be played in the aggro decks (which might weaken the 0 mana 5/5 if it's not) but probably playable in totem combo decks.... Maybe?
Call of the wild is 9 mana. Good.
Execute is 2 mana. Good.
Charge is removed from the game. (not literally but it's a 1 mana adds charge, no extra damage, can't attack face) Fits with how they don't want charge to be a thing. Thinking about it, after they decided they didn't like charge as a mechanic, it really was only a matter of time until the card with the literal name of what they hate was on the chopping block.
Abusive Sargent is loosing an attack. A nerf that they missed during the first round. I think this isn't as bad for it as it was for the gnome, still feels playable maybe.
Yogg-Saron now overloads and if it's removed from the board it's effect stops. Big old nerf. I'm not going to try to call if it's still playable.
Post by: Arx on September 28, 2016, 03:13:01 pm
Rockbiter goes to 2 mana, combo too strong for the discount I guess. I think this is a fair nerf and it'll still sorta be playable. It's normally not THAT hard to hold off for another turn before you do the combo, but of course it'll knock a few close wins out.
I... guess? I'm not sold on this. Divine Strength is 1 mana, permanent, and as a trade-off doesn't target heroes. Shaman has a lot more windfury though, I guess.
Quote
Tuskarr Totemic can only summon basic totems, fair enough, Tuskarr was always sorta the poster boy for the bad side of rng. I'm not sure if it'll still be played in the aggro decks (which might weaken the 0 mana 5/5 if it's not) but probably playable in totem combo decks.... Maybe?
Kind of feel like that should maybe have been like that from the beginning.
Quote
Call of the wild is 9 mana. Good.
Not entirely sure what this is fixing, since it's not like Midrange Hunter has been even close to oppressive, but sure. It's decent.
Quote
Execute is 2 mana. Good.
Seems reasonable. It's not like Warrior is starved for removal.
Quote
Charge is removed from the game. (not literally but it's a 1 mana adds charge, no extra damage, can't attack face) Fits with how they don't want charge to be a thing. Thinking about it, after they decided they didn't like charge as a mechanic, it really was only a matter of time until the card with the literal name of what they hate was on the chopping block.
Ugh. I guess it makes sense in terms of Hearthstone's consistent design philosophy, but I feel like they're continuously simplifying the game to its detriment.
Quote
Abusive Sargent is loosing an attack. A nerf that they missed during the first round. I think this isn't as bad for it as it was for the gnome, still feels playable maybe.
I don't think this is unreasonable. It's not ideal, but it might be part of the hit aggro needs right now.
Quote
Yogg-Saron now overloads and if it's removed from the board it's effect stops. Big old nerf. I'm not going to try to call if it's still playable.
I don't think the overload is inherently massive. Whether the removal part renders it unuseable remains to be seen. Yogg is such an odd card to pin down, it took a while before its place in the meta shook out in the first place.
Post by: Wiles on September 28, 2016, 03:28:10 pm
Rockbiter goes to 2 mana, combo too strong for the discount I guess. I think this is a fair nerf and it'll still sorta be playable. It's normally not THAT hard to hold off for another turn before you do the combo, but of course it'll knock a few close wins out.
I... guess? I'm not sold on this. Divine Strength is 1 mana, permanent, and as a trade-off doesn't target heroes. Shaman has a lot more windfury though, I guess.
Divine strength is pretty lousy in comparison though. With rockbiter you could pull off excellent trades or do some serious burst if you had doomhammer. A more comparable card might be power overwhelming. If warlock ever gets too strong I wouldn't be surprised if that card gets a similar nerf.
Post by: Criptfeind on September 28, 2016, 03:47:04 pm
Divine Strength
Divine Strength isn't really anything like rockbiter... Sorta. It's a buff card in theory for building up a dude and getting better trades, hopefully with your dude surviving, rockbiter is a a removal/burst card with combo potential. Blessing of might is closer, but ether way they are not anywhere within leagues of each other power wise. "Having to have a dude on the board" is a much higher drawback then the effect only lasting a single turn.
Not entirely sure what this is fixing, since it's not like Midrange Hunter has been even close to oppressive, but sure. It's decent.
Izzzz.... Actually a reasonable concern. Midrange hunter is actually one of the best decks around, it's just bullied by aggro decks and shaman (which means it's a lot less good in this meta), but it bullies the control decks pretty hard. As a class right now hunter is just sorta too good in the mid game and too weak in the early game. In a way, call of the wild would be incredibly op if it wasn't a hunter card. So I'd guess they are nerffing the mid game a tad so that can give them some stuff in the next expansion without unbalancing them.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 28, 2016, 04:12:50 pm
The Yogg nerf is a real shame and probably means I'll quit this game for a while, those were always the funnest decks to play.
Post by: Criptfeind on September 28, 2016, 06:37:44 pm
That said, it honestly could still be good enough. Hard to tell.
Post by: wereboar on September 28, 2016, 06:55:05 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on September 28, 2016, 06:59:08 pm
Tuskarr nerf was desperately needed. Hopefully lesson learned there, never again.
CotW nerf was the right call. Thanks to blizzard's (hopefully former) philosophy of rather than buffing a weak class by buffing its cards available to it currently, or printing a bunch of good cards, they print cards that are insane and you have to run 2x of for the class to be playable. CotW was one of those. The problem with this philosophy is that it means once another expansion comes out, they can't print good cards for hunter because then it would shitstomp. Making CotW weaker, but still very good is important because it means hunters might see one or two good cards next expac.
Execute was too cheap for what it did. It's still good, and probably a 2x in most warrior decks, but it's less good in tempo/midrange-y decks.
Charge is honestly more interesting now. I can see something like Patron - Pyro - Charge shenanigans happening. It went from a card nobody ever wanted to see played to another tool in warrior's arsenal. Charging sylvanases ho!
Abusive seargent was the problem card in aggro decks. Can we have leper gnome back now?
Yogg saw competetive play, which Blizz really didn't want, so now he's not a card anymore. Claim your free 1600 dust.
Post by: Criptfeind on September 28, 2016, 07:07:04 pm
Rockbiter nerf was garbage and I have no idea what blizzard was thinking. They even specifically called out their reasoning which was exactly backwards from what it should be. They nerfed Rockbiter over Totem Golem or Trogg because they wanted to nerf evergreen shaman, which makes zero sense because shaman's evergreen set is honestly horseshit.
I think an issue here is that rockbiter+doomhammer is just a very strong classic combo that although it doesn't make a deck by itself is a very powerful addition to a lot of shaman decks. Also classic has a lot of like, okay burst (the overload damage spells) Like, classic shaman isn't good, so it needs a steady stream of good cards, but that doesn't gel with what good parts of classic shaman there actually is. Like, if any good shaman cards are printed, they need to be powerful enough to raise the class up but have to be careful of enabling the bursting power in the class. Which is a fine line to toe you know? Well. Possibly a reasoning at least, you know.
Totem Golem and Tunnel trog are going to be gone in like five months or so anyway and probably are not so op that they need an answer in the meantime.
Post by: PanH on September 28, 2016, 10:23:15 pm
Rockbiter is nerfed instead of the reason it's too strong ? I mean right, doomhammer is totally not an issue -_-
Tuskar is good.
Execute I'm not sold that much. Lots of classes have cheap removal and the weakness of it was twofold : it was limited, and it needed an activator (which is already a big increase in cost, both mana and card wise compared to say Shadow word). Increasing its mana costs only makes warrior weaker in the early to mid game, against decks like Shaman or Hunter when they play big creatures (7/7 for 4, highmane, etc).
Charge is still a bad card, and it kills the curiosity worgen OTK (which wasn't interesting, so good).
Post by: Leafsnail on September 28, 2016, 10:36:34 pm
Post by: Darkmere on September 29, 2016, 12:21:21 am
I honestly hope spirit claws and the rockbiter nerf are prep for making shaman a little more control-oriented with the next expansion. Crusher is great and all but I can't make myself craft Devastation, and I miss my totem token deck.
Good riddance to Yogg.
No tears shed for CotW. It's still undercosted for what it does.
I haven't been playing too long, but I know about the whole patron warrior dealie that got charge nerfed. What else have they done to mess with it in the past?
Post by: Arx on September 29, 2016, 02:06:01 am
will go back to being bad as soon as the current expansions rotate.
The entire meta is going to implode when the current expansions rotate. I'm not tooo worried about that.
No tears shed for CotW. It's still undercosted for what it does.
I haven't been playing too long, but I know about the whole patron warrior dealie that got charge nerfed. What else have they done to mess with it in the past?
Bear in mind that Hunter doesn't *have* a late game. There just aren't good hunter late game cards. Except maybe some kind of N'Zoth shenanigan.
Warsong Commander got nerfed at least once, because of Frothing/Patron OTK decks. I guess Blizzard doesn't like it because it's not 'fun and interactive', but in many ways I think their ham-fisted attempts to bash that into the game are a major problem. They're hacking chunks of design space out of the game every time they do something like that.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 29, 2016, 08:12:12 am
Post by: Criptfeind on October 05, 2016, 04:55:38 pm
It's certainly interesting, but to be honest, maybe it's just me missing the intricacies of the game, but all the games I've played have felt like complete stomps (whether I'm winning or loosing) just based on luck of the draw. Maybe I'm missing some deep strategy to it but eh, it doesn't feel fun to play to me. Certainly a get your pack and get out brawl for me.
Still, amazing pack though, Archmage Antonidas AND a twisting nether.
Post by: Darkmere on October 05, 2016, 11:27:36 pm
Post by: Arx on October 09, 2016, 12:26:18 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on October 12, 2016, 12:31:27 pm
Post by: Arx on October 12, 2016, 02:11:36 pm
Post by: Darkmere on October 12, 2016, 02:59:36 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on October 12, 2016, 07:00:05 pm
Mind blast, win by turn 4. Fun and interactive.Only against an opponent who hurts themselves? I've found it's too slow vs a lot of decks (eg Timber Wolf, Murloc Tidecaller, Living Roots).
Post by: Wiles on October 17, 2016, 01:02:22 pm
http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/20324471/introducing-heroic-tavern-brawl-10-17-2016
The price of admission is 9.99! Or 1k gold.
I'm not paying ten dollars for one pass at a game mode. If they gave some warning I may have tried to save up 1k gold to try it out.
Worst part is they're taking away one of the better modes for free to play players and giving it to the p2w crowd for the week.
Post by: Arx on October 17, 2016, 01:16:09 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on October 17, 2016, 01:27:44 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on October 17, 2016, 02:01:30 pm
Post by: Darkmere on October 17, 2016, 04:06:03 pm
What an absolute fucking terrible idea.^^
I'd quote this a few more times if I could.
Who wants to bet the minimum reward for 0-3 is something absolutely pathetic? Coz the best part is the rewards seem only good for people who've been playing the longest and have the biggest collections already.
EDIT: I just saw Brode say 0-3 nets you one pack. So.... wow. Speechless.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 17, 2016, 04:14:26 pm
So you need like 5 wins to break even and even then it's kindof questionable.
Post by: Criptfeind on October 17, 2016, 04:15:44 pm
what. the. fuck
Post by: Leafsnail on October 17, 2016, 04:18:34 pm
Post by: Darkmere on October 17, 2016, 04:47:03 pm
Literally just play arena then? This is just ladder with arena rewards?
what. the. fuck
No, arena isn't this disproportionately shit w/r/t minimum reward/entrance fee.
IIRC, even when aggro shaman was gold-tier, high-level play with it was about a 62% winrate in Legend. So... expected payout with a Tier 1 deck on this event is ~3-4 wins, assuming Tier 1 decks and legend-level players. 3 wins is a 300 gold loss.
They also hid the rewards post behind a click on the announcement page.
I'll just put my tinfoil hat on and say it's designed to drain gold out of player accounts before the next expansion launch.
Post by: ventuswings on October 17, 2016, 09:23:27 pm
1) make players be able to create decks out of all Standard cards regardless of what cards they have
[for majority of players without complete collection which benefits most from the "jackpot"]
OR
2) give out special cardback reward for reaching 12 wins.
[for super-competitive players, giving legitimate bragging rights for hitting "jackpot" rather than current reward which'll be of little benefit to them unless it's placed right at the expansion launch.]
Post by: frostshotgg on October 17, 2016, 09:47:51 pm
Post by: Darkmere on October 17, 2016, 10:08:49 pm
I also almost exclusively play tavern brawl these days, so that has something to do with it.
Post by: ventuswings on October 17, 2016, 10:14:52 pm
I think you guys are being unreasonably upset about this. Blizzard's trying a new thing, and it doesn't really come at any cost, except you get 1 fewer free packs for a week and a quest that's obnoxious because you can't do it. You need a 63% win rate for it to pay off, which is definitely reasonably because this is the entire player pool, not just legend skilled players.
I'm actually not outraged at this. Actually think current reward distribution would be fine if they do any of the two above things.
It's just that I fit into first category of players - I am interested in the reward but I do not have enough card pool to stand against strong decks. And if I happen to have collection deep enough to compete legitimately, I'd be more interested in some sort of trophy instead you know? ;)
Post by: ventuswings on October 17, 2016, 10:15:38 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on October 18, 2016, 03:35:36 am
I think you guys are being unreasonably upset about this. Blizzard's trying a new thing, and it doesn't really come at any cost, except you get 1 fewer free packs for a week and a quest that's obnoxious because you can't do it. You need a 63% win rate for it to pay off, which is definitely reasonably because this is the entire player pool, not just legend skilled players.
Unreasonably? Idk, maybe, although maybe you think we're more upset then we are as well. I'd certainly say I stand by my statements on this, that it's sorta like a crappier arena, and a terrible idea, at least from my perspective (obviously from a monetary prospective, it's probably better for them.) Tavern brawl is certainly a large part, maybe even a majority, of my hearthstone enjoyment, killing it for a week (and probably if this is successful killing it many times in the future) is certainly killing my future interest in hearthstone.
I'm less upset, and more disappointed that this is strangling, at least for a week, what I like about hearthstone.
Post by: Leafsnail on October 18, 2016, 01:16:31 pm
I think you guys are being unreasonably upset about this. Blizzard's trying a new thing, and it doesn't really come at any cost, except you get 1 fewer free packs for a week and a quest that's obnoxious because you can't do it. You need a 63% win rate for it to pay off, which is definitely reasonably because this is the entire player pool, not just legend skilled players.It's not the entire player pool, it's just the players who can afford to bet 1000 gold on terrible odds (you lose about 300 gold per run on average - compare to arena where you gain gold every run and are risking a lot less). Which I'd imagine is actually an extremely experienced set of players.
Post by: Arx on October 27, 2016, 01:36:58 pm
In an unusual turn of events, I'm having a lot more fun playing fast/aggressive decks than anything else. I can play a bunch of games in a row without feeling like I'm spending all my time waiting, or getting salty because I've been playing for ages only to lose to a spot of bad play (or sometimes luck).
Also if I'm playing Face Hunter I can justify it to myself as me just being playing practically a meme deck. :P
Post by: Darkmere on October 27, 2016, 04:25:13 pm
But you can look forward to paying 1000 gold to play ladder matches soontm!
I haven't been motivated to play since they put the new quests in. Fill a deck with 30 2-cost cards or less, then lose as slowly as possible. Just feels like an unpleasant waste.
Post by: Criptfeind on October 27, 2016, 04:44:54 pm
I haven't been motivated to play since they put the new quests in. Fill a deck with 30 2-cost cards or less, then lose as slowly as possible. Just feels like an unpleasant waste.
I've not played in two weeks for one reason or another, so maybe I'm missing something. But if you're referring to the play only two or lower cost minion quests I'm fairly sure that quest has been in the game... Uh. Forever.
Post by: Darkmere on October 27, 2016, 05:32:05 pm
I haven't been motivated to play since they put the new quests in. Fill a deck with 30 2-cost cards or less, then lose as slowly as possible. Just feels like an unpleasant waste.
I've not played in two weeks for one reason or another, so maybe I'm missing something. But if you're referring to the play only two or lower cost minion quests I'm fairly sure that quest has been in the game... Uh. Forever.
Patch last week added a couple dozen new quests including suchlike "play 50 mage cards" and "play 75 murlocs". It's nice because they're not win-based, but it's lame that you just want to vomit cards over everything else to be done with it.
Post by: Arx on October 28, 2016, 12:33:28 am
Edit: the SMOrc lifestyle continues. 61% winrate, average 5.5 minutes/9.1 turns per game. And I'm now at 1-star Rank 13, which is significantly higher than I've ever been before. Given I'd never left Rank 18... Hunter is fun.
Post by: Arx on November 22, 2016, 01:50:56 pm
And Jade Idol looks as broken as all hell.
(1 mana; Choose one, summon a Jade Golem or shuffle 3 copies of this card into your deck).
Post by: ventuswings on November 22, 2016, 02:14:29 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on November 22, 2016, 02:19:45 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on November 22, 2016, 02:25:07 pm
Post by: Arx on November 22, 2016, 02:26:05 pm
It's good at stopping fatigue but extremely bad otherwise (unless there's a lot of Jade Golem support). You don't want to be topdecking 1 mana spells.
The thing is that in the late game that 1-mana spell is going to be disproportionately strong. I expect Jade Golem druid to see play, but if it doesn't I still expect to see people kicking around non-competitive Millfurion decks that run it purely because it's a rogue-style infinite value combo that doesn't need an engine.
Post by: frostshotgg on November 22, 2016, 02:37:32 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on November 22, 2016, 04:00:30 pm
Post by: Darkmere on November 30, 2016, 12:03:50 am
Any bets on whether I'll pull every garbage legendary in the xpack again?
Post by: Leafsnail on November 30, 2016, 12:53:46 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 30, 2016, 02:31:12 pm
Post by: Wiles on November 30, 2016, 03:38:17 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on November 30, 2016, 04:33:19 pm
Quote
Join the Goons - Win 3 games as a Hunter, Paladin, or Warrior.It's possible you'll only be allowed to "join" one faction, but it looks like we're getting at least two free packs.
Rewards 2 Mean Streets of Gadgetzan Packs
Join the Jade Lotus - Win 3 games as a Druid, Rogue, or Shaman.
Rewards 2 Mean Streets of Gadgetzan Packs
Join the Kabal - Win 3 games as a Mage, Priest, or Warlock.
Rewards 2 Mean Streets of Gadgetzan Packs
Post by: Darkmere on November 30, 2016, 04:36:52 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on November 30, 2016, 07:16:51 pm
I think what they're not giving out is specific cards like in the last two expansions.
Post by: Darkmere on December 01, 2016, 11:52:18 am
Post by: Leafsnail on December 01, 2016, 03:23:08 pm
Off to a great start. 23 packs, opened Wrathion which I'm guaranteed to never be able to use. Can't wait for the shitfest legendary I get next!Wrathion seems decent even if he doesn't hit any dragons. Value + a taunt to keep you alive while you use that value is cool.
Post by: Darkmere on December 01, 2016, 04:59:30 pm
As a warning the packs seem to have a drastically increased chance of giving you triclass cards right now. Maybe hold off on opening your packs for a bit unless you want a dozen Grimestreet Informants.Off to a great start. 23 packs, opened Wrathion which I'm guaranteed to never be able to use. Can't wait for the shitfest legendary I get next!Wrathion seems decent even if he doesn't hit any dragons. Value + a taunt to keep you alive while you use that value is cool.
He's terribly understatted/overcost for both taunt and cycle, assuming you only draw one card (which I would). Almost anything else would be better for either purpose. I'm holding on to him though, the only thing I'm missing is the last 4 wings of BRM, so hopefully the next expansion brings in more dragon support (by a lot) when that rotates out.
I just got the first of the "Join a gang" quests as a little story-mode dealie. Looks like you get 6 free packs as a one-time quest chain, which isn't quite the 8 freebies from WoG but still pretty snazzy.
Unrelated: toying with a Jade Token Midrange Shaman concept, seems fairly promising so far. Not sure you could rely on Jade Golems alone without Aya, but fortunately I don't have to.
I really, REALLY like Lotus Agents, though that kind of thing is probably bad from a competitive standpoint.
Post by: Wiles on December 01, 2016, 05:51:33 pm
I decided to craft some cards to make a hand buffing paladin deck, so I made Don Han'Cho. It's a pretty fun deck but also tends to get run over by Pirate Warrior unless you get an amazing start. Maybe I should throw some more taunt in because taunt does hurt pirate warrior if you can get some big ones out early.
So with all the pirate warriors I thought I should fight fire with fire so I crafted Patches the Pirate and started playing pirate warrior as well. :P
Post by: Leafsnail on December 01, 2016, 06:46:11 pm
He's terribly understatted/overcost for both taunt and cycle, assuming you only draw one card (which I would). Almost anything else would be better for either purpose. I'm holding on to him though, the only thing I'm missing is the last 4 wings of BRM, so hopefully the next expansion brings in more dragon support (by a lot) when that rotates out.Not really. It pays a similar stat cost to cards like Gnomish Apprentice/Inventor which are decent.
e: and do you really not have Azure Drake?
Post by: Wiles on December 01, 2016, 08:45:58 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Darkmere on December 01, 2016, 10:37:53 pm
Patches is almost certainly the best card in the set so that seems like a fine decision.He's terribly understatted/overcost for both taunt and cycle, assuming you only draw one card (which I would). Almost anything else would be better for either purpose. I'm holding on to him though, the only thing I'm missing is the last 4 wings of BRM, so hopefully the next expansion brings in more dragon support (by a lot) when that rotates out.Not really. It pays a similar stat cost to cards like Gnomish Apprentice/Inventor which are decent.
e: and do you really not have Azure Drake?
I do have the drakes but don't run them in my Jade shaman (yet) because 1-of spirit claws and Thalnos do what I want, with Jade claws in there too.
Here's my budget rationale: The Vanilla test is 0.5 stat per mana cost on minions, with draw 1 being 0.5 mana rounded down or free (additional draw is upped cost per card drawn, like arcane intellect for 2 and sprint for 7) based on PW:S, Shiv, Wrath. For value, Loot Hoarder is pretty good at 3 stats (1.5 mana) + cycle (0.5 mana). Novice Engineer (2 stats for 1 mana + cycle for 1 mana) is overcosted by 0.5 mana, while Inventor (6 stats for 3 mana + cycle for 1 mana) are overcosted on average.
By that metric, Wrathion is 9 stats for 4.5 mana + cycle for 1.5 mana in a dragon-less deck. You'd just barely break under-even 1 in 15 plays assuming you played him without first drawing either drake, then draw a drake and get 2 cards. If I had a dragon deck with... just say 10 dragons, odds of getting close to mana-cost worth of draw increases to 1/3 depending on how shit your draws are early game.
Absolute worst case though, it's paying 6 mana for a 5 mana taunt that will trade poorly with stronger 5-drops. It'd be a decent clockstopper for dragon decks provided you could get the card advantage with more than 1 draw, but other than that case it's low-value.
Looks like if you are on the NA servers and you opened packs before 2:30pm PST you will be getting free packs because they messed up the drop rates.
Can confirm, bought 22 packs before lunch and opened them like a greedy kid at Christmas, just got reimbursed 8 packs. Classy, I'm totally satisfied with that.
Post by: Leafsnail on December 01, 2016, 11:02:41 pm
By a similar token Wrathion is paying 2 mana over a theoretical 4/5 taunt for 4 which would probably be a pretty good card.
If your metric is calling playable or very good cards "overcosted" it is a bad metric.
Post by: Criptfeind on December 01, 2016, 11:43:07 pm
6 mana 4/5 taunt draw one is obviously very close to being good enough to play alone, throw in the possibility of a very large upside in dragon decks, and it almost seems like a no brainer.
Honestly even by Darkmeres very demanding rules for 'worth', if half your deck is dragon average is draw 1.5, that's a 4.5 mana card (apparently yetti is undercosted in this metric?) +1.5 (1 for the first, +2/2 for the .5) worth of draw for 6 mana. It's even got taunt, for whatever that's worth. Good card.
Edit: Actually reading Darkmeres post I think he might have just screwed up the internal math there? 4.5+1.5=6, the minimum according to your metric is actually good.
Post by: Wiles on December 01, 2016, 11:58:10 pm
I'm not sure if you can really call a card that doesn't (afaik) actually see any play playable (novice engineer) but yeah, I agree. 1 draw is okay, 2 draw is insanely good (compare to ancient of lore, 7 mana 5/5 draw 2 was too powerful)
Novice Engineer typically sees plays in combo decks. For example you often see it in Freeze Mage.
Post by: Darkmere on December 02, 2016, 12:17:06 am
/Disclaimer
So, what are we calling "playable" here? Arenas? Ladder? Tournament? I'm going by what I read off and on at /r/competitveHS mostly, so if there's another source that has better metrics, I'd like to check that out, too.
Arenas are different, and I don't play them much so I'm not really qualified to say.
I don't remember seeing Engineer in the mage/druid/shaman decks for ladder play... ever? Did I miss something?
Post by: Wiles on December 02, 2016, 12:30:35 am
I don't remember seeing Engineer in the mage/druid/shaman decks for ladder play... ever? Did I miss something?
You don't see it much because it usually only ends up in decks that are focused on cycling through their deck as quickly as possible (like freeze mage). But there haven't been a lot of freeze mage on ladder for a while. Another somewhat recent deck that used it was the worgen combo deck that was popular until it got nerfed.
Post by: Arx on December 02, 2016, 01:33:39 am
And I think you have the cost for drawing a card too low. Immediately cycling is consistently costed at 1 mana- novice, gnomish inventor, PW:S (compare to Totemic Might), Drake. Delayed or situational cycling is costed lower - Thalnos, Hoarder, Elekk, mark of Y'Shaarj.
Post by: frostshotgg on December 02, 2016, 06:06:37 am
Post by: xaritscin on December 03, 2016, 12:58:19 am
my spell focused mage deck seems to be viable yet, and i even found 3 new cards to add just in case. there's a 0/7 mana 2-3 with +1 spell damage, there's this mana 3 3/2 girl that has a battle cry that allows me to copy one of my minions on field and put it on my deck, and then there's the red mana wyrm that cost 5 mana and its a 2/6 but gains +2 damage each time i use a spell. that's nasty.
oh and also got to rank 20 again. gonna wait for that jade lotus card back (i have hogger backside right now).
Post by: Criptfeind on December 03, 2016, 08:09:25 am
I'm not sure if you can really call a card that doesn't (afaik) actually see any play playable (novice engineer) but yeah, I agree. 1 draw is okay, 2 draw is insanely good (compare to ancient of lore, 7 mana 5/5 draw 2 was too powerful)
Novice Engineer typically sees plays in combo decks. For example you often see it in Freeze Mage.
Heh, you're right, I totally forgot that freeze mage was a thing! So, sure, I'll take it back, engineer is... Sorta playable.
Post by: Darkmere on December 03, 2016, 12:03:30 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on December 06, 2016, 09:53:23 pm
Dusted a decent amount of stuff last night to build Freeze Mage. Sure, it's not exactly great right now, but the expensive stuff I was missing is pretty widely used - Thalnos, Doomsayers, Ice Blocks. Already had Emperor and Alex, everything else is cheap.
Anyways, I'm loving it. I need a lot of practice, but it's basically exactly the kind of deck I love to play. Maybe I can make a moderately ok rank for December
Post by: Leafsnail on December 06, 2016, 10:05:16 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on December 07, 2016, 09:45:21 pm
Post by: Darkmere on December 08, 2016, 04:09:34 am
Highlander dragon priests though... holy shit. Glad I haven't run into many, they're worse than pirate warriors in some ways. Someday I really need to buy the rest of BRM...
Post by: Arx on December 08, 2016, 04:33:06 am
Post by: Darkmere on December 08, 2016, 04:56:35 am
I really hope they sub in more dragon stuff to replace the rotated ones, though. Seems like a waste to print stuff like Wrathion and the Drakonid Agent if they're just going to be neutered with the next set.
Post by: Leafsnail on December 08, 2016, 06:09:28 am
Post by: Arx on December 08, 2016, 06:59:14 am
Post by: Leafsnail on December 08, 2016, 01:52:23 pm
Post by: Darkmere on December 08, 2016, 02:17:47 pm
Post by: Wiles on December 08, 2016, 02:57:16 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on December 08, 2016, 07:30:37 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on December 08, 2016, 08:38:42 pm
Post by: Darkmere on December 09, 2016, 11:20:43 am
Post by: Jiokuy on December 09, 2016, 06:43:33 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoilered for everyone's convenience.
PS: Why is draw a card worth 1.5 mana, but playing the card only worth 1 mana? (It has to do with how much stronger draw a card battlecry cards are when you're topdecking or cycling to trigger a combo)
Post by: Darkmere on December 09, 2016, 10:04:26 pm
If I'd had the cards for any kind of dragon deck or desperately needed the card cycle to fish for combo pieces/answers, it would be entirely different and I'd consider the taunt just a bonus.
Someone once pointed out that, regarding the Azure Drakes, you have 3 functions in the card's properties:
1) Decent Body
2) Card Draw
3) +1 spell damage
Pick two.
Azure Drakes have a reasonable body plus the other two, which makes them one of the strongest evergreen cards. Thalnos gets you all three for just two mana, which is why it's such a good card in so many decks.
Post by: Wiles on December 12, 2016, 02:41:27 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on December 12, 2016, 05:41:56 pm
Post by: Darkmere on December 14, 2016, 04:20:19 am
Post by: Wiles on December 14, 2016, 07:29:28 am
Post by: Darkmere on December 14, 2016, 07:49:49 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
There MUST be some kind of concrete criteria I can at least work on learning, I refuse to believe it's blind luck as all the "wisdom" I've run across seems to indicate. I mean, it's literally impossible to plan for anything, there could be almost any card in the other guy's hand... so... what, just trade and hope they didn't draft or draw the right answers?
Post by: frostshotgg on December 14, 2016, 08:37:11 am
As far as playing goes, again it's about knowing what could happen when, and how different classes can handle it. A druid isn't going to have an answer for a really fat minion without a board, but a mage can polymorph or fireball it. A priest isn't going to be able to clear your board of 1 health minions on turn 4, but the next turn you should trade some of them in to make the excavated evil or holy nova less painful.
Arena is a lot closer to poker than constructed. You can't know exactly what cards are in your opponent's hand, but you know what might make them play in a certain way, and you judge how to best leverage the hand you're dealt. There's going to be times where you matched against the mage with Dr. Boom, 4 flamestrikes, 4 firelands portals, and a perfect curve and there was no way in hell you were going to beat them. But most games aren't that skewed, and you can definitely do better. The reason a lot of the top streamers are able to maintain 7+ average wins isn't because Blizzard rigs the RNG in their favor.
Post by: Leafsnail on December 14, 2016, 10:38:55 am
The most important thing is to know the critical blowout commons of each class (eg Flamestrike and Polymorph for mages, buffs and Truesilver for paladins) and try to play in a way that minimizes the goodness of those cards. For example, committing additional <5 health minions onto the board when a mage has 7 mana is a bad idea. Cards from the most recent set are especially important to play around because they're 50% more likely to show up (looking at you, Abyssal Enforcer).
You shouldn't be playing around "generic AoE", you should have specific cards in mind and be working to reduce their impact. Especially if you're ahead. If you're behind you may have to take risks like playing into AoE or large removal to give yourself a chance to win.
If you record your games with something like deck tracker we could give specific advice.
Post by: Wiles on December 14, 2016, 12:29:05 pm
Post by: Darkmere on December 14, 2016, 02:06:21 pm
'Til then, here (http://arenadrafts.com/Stats/History/Darkmere) is the record from my last few runs. It has the drafts all saved, if someone doesn't mind poking at it and letting me know how wrong I was.
Post by: Arx on December 15, 2016, 10:22:55 am
1, pick should probaby have been Blademaster. You're not guaranteed value out of golems, and 2 attack doesn't remove a lot of two drops.
2, Fine.
3, I favour Swordsmith, because its worst case is a vanilla 1/3, best case enables multiple trade-ups, and average case buffs your two drop. Bruiser is inconsistent, with a worst case of being badly overcosted.
4, 5, Fine.
6, You were a little bit screwed. I don't like Kobold, because you don't have damage spells, I dislike WWitchdoctor a little less because she doesn't need damage spells. Grook-Fu just looks bad to me. If I'm felling lazy, I consult a tier list in this situation, revealing...you should hold your nose and take Grook-Fu.
7, Pretty okay. I would've been tempted by Tiger, because you want to get a bit of late-game and Tiger is quite a good five drop.
8, Fine. So's 9.
10, You're a bit shafted, but KJuggler has some synergies so it's not too bad.
11, I still don't like going for golems in arena. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems an overall inconsistent approach. Jade Spirit is, worst-case, a 3/4, which is pretty bad especially over two bodies the turn before EE, Holy Nova, or Coin->Blizzard. I'd be happier taking Hoarder, just to cycle the card and trade into my opponent's two (or three, even) drop.
12, I might've taken Polluted Hoarder. You have to have some card draw or your deck will run out of steam.
13, up until this point you have drafted one mech. The deathrattle is basically never going to go off. I'd take Belcher, here. They're both excellent cards.
14, Crusher's a card with a fair bit to be said for it, but at the same time you've just drafted Mech synergy and you have no dragon synergy in your deck. I'm leaning slightly to Annoy-o-tron, also in part because the deck thus far isn't really aggressive.
15, Spirit Claws, good. Quality card, better because you have Geomancer. The others are pretty trashy.
16, FWarlord seems good to me. AoB is overcosted and puts out little pressure, Frost Shock has dubious utility.
17, Bolt seems fine here. Crackle would generally be better if you were expecting to have to remove big things in the late game, though.
18, still not sold on the golems... I think Loot Hoarder is the most consistent card with the best utility here. War Golem isn't even a Mech, Jade Spirit is currently at best summoning a 3/3, which is admittedly pretty good, but not consistent.
19, Gotta get the 4 mana 7/7s. Worth noting that if you really wanted to lean on the golem angle, you possibly should have picked the Jade Chieftains when they came up. If you're trying to make a go of golems, I think you more-or-less need to take it on faith that by turn 7 you'll be summoning a 3/3 golem or better.
20, Jinyu's pretty decent. Goes well with your assortment of weaponry. Would be stronger if you'd drafted more late-game, because you can hold tempo by healing, but eh, 's good.
21, Argent Horserider is very strong, but so's Jade Lightning. At this point, you're probably best off sticking to your guns on drafting golems.
22, Sure. Don't like Greaser, don't like Infested too much.
23, Those other two are pretty mediocre, so yeah. ZI might not suck, but consistency is key.
24, Thunderbluff, seems good. The others are on the poor side.
25, Alright. Not amazing, but it can help hold the early board and the others suck.
26, I like to take Ooze for the utility when I can, but I agree on FElemental. You need late-game badly, at this point in the draft.
27, Alright. Bear in mind that TT is devalued by not having Mechs, but the others are pretty bad so a 3/3 vs. a 2/4 is a toss-up (you'll basically never activate either).
28, Good two drop.
29, Good two drop.
30, There is only one Mech in your deck. The tierlist ranks Powermace as really strong, but the deathrattle being crippled weakens it a whole bunch. I like Jinyu or Madder more here.
There you go, that's my drafting advice on one of them. The same thought process can be applied to any given draft.
Particularly, bear synergies in mind. Powermace is an excellent card because if the deathrattle triggers it's Fiery War Axe +. If the deathrattle doesn't trigger, it's not that great. Good, but not great. Just as an example.
Make sure your deck won't run out of steam. You need ways to refill your hand, and ways to hold the board in the late game. A curve ending at 6 is passable but it's really, really nice to be able to drop, say, North Sea Kraken in the late game. Or a Captured Jormungar, or BogChamp. Particularly Kraken and BogChamp can be 'soft' board clears, in that if your opponent doesn't have burn or removal, they more-or-less have to trade their whole board in.
TL;DR, bear synergy in mind, don't run out of steam, this is CurveStone, consistency is the most important thing.
Post by: Ukrainian Ranger on December 15, 2016, 11:51:58 am
Quote
1, pick should probaby have been Blademaster. You're not guaranteed value out of golems, and 2 attack doesn't remove a lot of two drops.I can't disagree more here. Weapons are very strong in arena. It is both tempo AND reach. It is not about jade golems train. 2\2 weapon plus 1\1 minion is OK for 3 mana, more so if it is overload.
1 is fine
2 is close. I would go for the jouster because 2/3 start can be game winning, especially if you follow it with 2 mana weapon. Yet silence and ping is good
3. I see no other option. It is come back mechanism and survival tool
4. I'd go for the jade chieftan. It is simply a better top deck and late game tool AND you already got jade golem synergy. It is early in the draft and we have no pressing need for 3s
5. Here you got two pings and two taunts already. This means that you, usually don't mind random 1 drops. Hungry dragon for solid 4 drop.
6. Kobold is fine.
7. You need a 2 drop
8. Easy Micro machine
9. It is close, but I prefer to take a 4 drop here to have some room and not grabbing any 4 drop next
10. You have zero 4 drops and more than enough 2 drops. Grab the shade
11. You skipped two good 4 OK 4 drop so now you kinda have to take this. Even here I'd consider bluegill for the reach. Deck needs win condition
12. Polluted hoarder and it is not even close. You have 4+kobold 2 drops and almost 2\3rds of drafting ahead. You should be taking only premium 2 drops now. On other hand you have one 4 drop. It is definately a hoarder
13. 3 mana 3\2 weapon is very strong.
14. Here problem of too many 2 drops arrived. I would still grab the tron because it is great with the mace and you lack 4 drops (2x2 drops can be an alternative to a 4 drop)
15. Instapick. First turn playable cards are good. Weapons are good. Thing that can become a better fire war axe is very good
16. I think it is actually pretty close. I grab frostshock and here is why > you have 2 mana 2\2s, you have 3 mana 2\4, you have 4 mana 2\3. You need tools to trade up. Freezing enemy big minions\face with weapon can be a great come back mechanism, too
17. Spirit claws and it is not even close. See above. Also, unlike lightning bolt Spirit claws is very playable on turn one
18. Oooh... we still have no 4 drops. Yet our deck is rather small and we need some drawing mechanism
19. Instapick. You need a very good reason to not take 4 mana 7\7
20. Another good 4 drop. Yet it brings a problem of needing more 4 drops (if you play it on 4, you need another one to play next turn)
21. Even with all that synergy I'd grab the horserider. You have serious problems with one good and two very meh 3s
22. No other choice
23. No other choice (me wants old Tuskarr back)
24. I take young priestess and pay no attention at tier scores. You need something to play on turn 3 and this something can be a 2 drop + 1 drop. Few 3 drops is a serious problem
25. Vodoo doctor is fine here. This deck will see many problems finding a way to win with bloodlust
26. More reach for our aggresive deck
27. 3 drop, grab it now. 3\3 is better than 2\4 so
28. too... many... 2 drops. Yet huge toad is just the best card
29. MORE REACH. Yes
30. Good 3 drop. Yes. Main problem is solved! There are no other real option. 3\2 weapon for 3 is good enough to take unless you have 4+ weapons already.
All in all, your deck is pretty nice and should not run to bad. I suspect you lose because you try to play a value game and trade a lot while this deck requires going face starting from turn 4\5 because you will run out of steam with a low curve and no draws at all.
Post by: Darkmere on December 15, 2016, 01:42:44 pm
-I do wish I'd had more card draw. Lesson learned.
-The one game I won was due to golem synergy, the other shaman wasn't able to stabilize as I bashed through his taunts with weapons + golem value.
-The mage loss was due to not having a card to play until turn 3 (and that was voodoo doc...), game just said fuck you go home.
-the Unknown in the list was (i think) a ramp druid. constant wall of high-stat taunts played early ground me down.
-the warrior game he'd managed to get a control deck. I curved out fine but he had two monkeys plus enough removals that I never had much of a board. More draw would have helped here, I could have probably taken him.
Other than that, I am starting to get an idea of what I need to think about for next time, so thanks for the replies. Once I run out my MSG pity timer I'll probably start back trying to learn arenas again.
Post by: LASD on December 15, 2016, 07:18:45 pm
- Know your win condition and play to it
- Don't overcommit with minions
The first one especially goes as far as baiting the enemy to use their removal cards while you commit minimal resources, so that your N'Zoth, Tirion etc. sticks and you win the game 5 turns later.
Post by: Darkmere on February 03, 2017, 02:07:47 pm
Last Classic I packed was Mukla after a 39-pack streak. Maybe in another 3 or 4 months I can get a Milhouse. Whoopty fuck.
Post by: Wiles on February 03, 2017, 02:37:17 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on February 03, 2017, 02:58:46 pm
Edit: On the other hand I hope they don't get too rekt. I think maybe the only thing that'd be worse then pirates being good would jade being good. So hopefully there can be some balance here.
Post by: Darkmere on February 03, 2017, 03:07:50 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on February 03, 2017, 07:45:58 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on February 03, 2017, 10:21:55 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on February 03, 2017, 11:26:57 pm
Post by: Darkmere on February 04, 2017, 12:17:04 am
Then again, that would only make Reno decks more irritating and I hate Kazakus only slightly less than pirates so it wouldn't be much of a gain. The overall powerlevel of the game right now feels just a bit too high.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 04, 2017, 12:22:23 am
Post by: Darkmere on February 14, 2017, 03:22:55 pm
TL;DR:
*Patch should come out near the end of the month... ish?
*Small-time buccaneer changing to 1 health so it dies to a fart from almost anything.
*Spirit claws changed to 2 mana, because midrange shaman nostalgia and doomhammer or something.
*There will be "progression floors" on ranked ladder. Once you hit 15, 10, 5 in a season you can't drop below that. This has nothing to do with end-of-season rank drops, only in-season matches.
Sooooooo what eats reno decks? Midrange shaman? Jade? Jade Midrange Shaman?
I'd have preferred the STB nerf had been in the form of making its ability a battlecry instead of undoing the card, but Blizzard didn't ask me this time for some reason. Still, my Shadowjade Shaku rogue and egg druid funsies decks that use pirate openers should be able to adapt, so I'm glad they'll still be good for questing and wild shenanigans.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 14, 2017, 03:43:21 pm
I think that overall these changes should make reno worse actually, since they were suppose to be the anti aggro. And now that druid and rogue are a bit better off against the aggro that kept dominating them, they can get back in and eat the reno decks that they are so good against.
I think turning STB into a battlecry would have been too harsh a nerf, unless you wanted it not played. Since turning a 1 drop minion that activates the pirate package into a like... Turn 3 play... Even for the same mana that's a lot worse. By then it'll be killed too easily, and you're way more likely to have drawn patches. So, I think that mighta killed the card.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 14, 2017, 08:04:08 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on February 14, 2017, 08:43:57 pm
Post by: Darkmere on February 14, 2017, 09:19:57 pm
Anecdotal evidence but I haven't had much luck questing with pirate warrior in any case, it's so "OP" that everyone ran cards against it so there wasn't really much I could do with one. That's fine, though, I don't like the deck much.
I am wondering if hunter can edge in some with the slower early game. Not seeing much hope for paladin, though (murlocs aside).
Post by: RedWarrior0 on February 16, 2017, 02:16:08 pm
You will get full dust value for them, up to the number of copies you can put into a deck, without needing to disenchant. Thus, if you have a Rag, you get 1600 dust. If you have a golden Rag, you get 3200 dust; one of each still gives you 3200 dust because you can only put 1 in your deck.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 16, 2017, 02:17:18 pm
Edit: And I guess if you craft the golden versions of them, you can then dust them for 1600 profit after the fact.
Post by: frostshotgg on February 16, 2017, 02:22:16 pm
But I'm really, really sad to see Ice Lance go. Handlock already went the way of the dodo and is probably never coming back, and now Freeze Mage is gonna die off too. It's a huge shame, because while they could be some really frustrating decks to play, they're also the most complex decks, on par with Patron Warrior's glory days. No complexity allowed for you, kids.
Post by: Sindain on February 16, 2017, 02:44:19 pm
Post by: Darkmere on February 16, 2017, 02:53:57 pm
Looks like I'll need the dust since we no longer get adventures...
Post by: Neonivek on February 16, 2017, 03:11:39 pm
Welp. Just took a machete to most of my golden cards and a few epics (bye, weasels) to craft sylvanas and rag. Free is free.
Looks like I'll need the dust since we no longer get adventures...
Why did they do that?
They were a good way to get new players to pay money for some free high level cards that killed new players.
Post by: Wiles on February 16, 2017, 03:21:55 pm
Here's an article (http://www.pcgamer.com/ragnaros-and-sylvanas-will-only-be-playable-in-wild-once-hearthstones-next-set-launches/) going over the changes.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 16, 2017, 06:19:04 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on February 16, 2017, 07:01:41 pm
Functionally, if you have regulars of stuff that's getting put into hall of fame, you can craft them into gold for free then disenchant your regular copies for a small net gain.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 16, 2017, 07:11:48 pm
e: actually apparently golden legendaries disenchant for 1600 dust rather than 800 like I thought? So I guess you would get back the same amount if you disenchanted your golden legendary and your normal one.
e2: you can make a profit on the common cards though, since those dust for 50 which is more than it costs to craft the non-gold version.
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on February 23, 2017, 06:30:36 pm
I am less happy to see Sylvanas go, because that card was subtle and interesting and could be used in unorthodox ways. I don't have it in my collection and probably won't now, so i am sad to see that go.
On the other cards: what is Blizzard thinking???
Conceal is useless in 90% of decks, but the decks that use it need it, and those decks tend to be the kinds of decks I like: decks for smart people, decks which require more thought than "drop everything on the table, then attack face repeatedly"
Ice lance is a difficult to use card outside of the right deck, but vital to that right deck. Why Blizzard, why?
Ditto Power Overwhelming: great card, complicated, requires intelligence to make useful in many contexts, only reason to bring whatchamacallit: 4 mana, kill own unit, do mass damage with its' attack value?
Azure Drake is a little too popular, but so what? It is popular because it has many uses.
Overall, it sounds like Blizzard keeps pushing the game towards that glorious horizon where you stop thinking altogether and just trade face blows and "summon random X" or "cast random Y" until one side randomly loses. Basically, to the point where their AIs can play the game as well as a human player, because all complex options are gone. Where the only decision you make is "play monster y/y?" I hate it. As a player who is happy losing 9 games out of 10, as long as my overly complicated, weird synergy deck wins that one time, this is exactly what I don't want to see.
All this means, is now I will lose 10/10 games to newbie Hunters and Warlocks.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 23, 2017, 07:04:09 pm
Freeze Mage would probably just be really good at the start of each standard season, and Ice Lance is the cleanest hit to tone down Freeze Mage without affecting control mage strategies.
Azure Drake is just too good for a neutral in the classic set. Hearthstone should change over time, not have the same staple card in most decks forever.
Post by: frostshotgg on February 23, 2017, 09:01:46 pm
I was going to say that's fine, because you can have complex and difficult decks that aren't combo decks.
Then I remembered Handlock is dead, and I can't really think of anything other than Blizzard doesn't want any decks that aren't totally brainless.
Post by: Leafsnail on February 23, 2017, 09:08:56 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on February 23, 2017, 09:27:27 pm
They want decks to be around forever so they're super hesitant to nerf cards or get rid of the evergreen set, but they also want decks to not be around forever so they rotate out cards and nerf decks that are mostly evergreen. Something something, cake, something something possession and consumption at the same time.
Post by: wereboar on February 24, 2017, 08:44:45 am
Same with Ice Lance and PO - OTK decks just are not fun to lose to.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 28, 2017, 08:59:16 am
Highlights:
Elementals are going to be a big theme, and there's a new elemental tribe (including a lot of various old cards) if elemental build around are good shaman might have a bit of an advantage in the element field since they've collected so many random elements over time.
New keyword "Adapt" Which when it happens (so far it's only been a battle cry but no reason it couldn't be something else I guess) you get a discover of 3 buffs out of 10 options and pick one to what the adapt applies too. So far we've seen a druid 5 mana 5/4 that adapts itself and a neutral 4 mana 5/4 that adapts all your murlocks. The 10 choices are "Can't be targeted by spells or hero power." "+3 attack." "Divine shield" "Deathrattle: Summon 2 1/1 plants" "Taunt" "Windfury" "+1/+1" "+3 health" "Stealth" "Destroy any minion damaged by this minion."
Big new thing is the mechanic of quests, quests are legendary spells, there's one for each class. They are 1 mana and always in your opening hand, although you can mulligan them away. They stick around like secrets and have some big thing you have to do (the example one was the priest quest which requires you summon 7 deathrattle minions) and then give you some big benefit (the priest quest gives you a 5 mana 8/8 with taunt that sets your health to 40.) Could be interesting.
There's been a few cards revealed (including the mage legendary, which is pretty bad), but apparently the card reveals are going to start on march 17th
Edit: Oh, and, obviously kinda goes without saying, but Dinosaurs as well. Apparently with funky elemental powers (although the adapt is elemental themed so maybe that's the extent of it) and they are beasts so I guess maybe some beast decks might have a go.
Edit2: whoops, druid card is 5 mana. That's really really expensive. I doubt adapt is going to be worth that much.
Post by: wereboar on February 28, 2017, 09:08:46 am
Post by: Criptfeind on February 28, 2017, 09:15:07 am
Also heh heh, I hope we don't see... Too much of a greedy grindy meta, jade druid would be super oppressive there.
Post by: wereboar on February 28, 2017, 09:17:50 am
Well, at least it's a great arena card.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 28, 2017, 09:23:37 am
Of course who knows exactly what arena is going to be like after the changes happen. So maybe that'll change.
Post by: wereboar on February 28, 2017, 09:53:10 am
I dunno, that just sounds like crazy value to me.
Post by: frostshotgg on February 28, 2017, 12:05:45 pm
Also that quest thing seems really deck defining. Blizzard says fuck you all, you're going to build the deck we tell you to if you want to have a fighting chance this meta.
Post by: Criptfeind on February 28, 2017, 12:09:04 pm
Ben brode's saved the meta.
Post by: Arx on February 28, 2017, 12:14:59 pm
Post by: Darkmere on February 28, 2017, 12:48:57 pm
After all that, you still need the regular priest toolkit and some way to win, too. Jade doesn't care about life total and aggro goes face regardless, so... what's the deck's actual plan, then?
Post by: Criptfeind on February 28, 2017, 12:52:46 pm
Also they've sated that they are specifically working on more death rattle cards, so I would... Well, you're right with the current cards that are going to be in standard. But it's probably reasonable that if they want N'zoth priest to be a thing they'll add support for it... Which is what their quest is, a support card for N'zoth priest, not a card that defines a deck itself. I guess we'll have to see.
Post by: frostshotgg on February 28, 2017, 01:30:16 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on February 28, 2017, 01:42:08 pm
Post by: Darkmere on February 28, 2017, 05:40:38 pm
Maybe it'll give me a reason to finally craft N'zoth. My WoG legendary pulls were shameful but I couldn't justify the expense yet.
Post by: Criptfeind on March 01, 2017, 12:34:15 pm
Yup. That's right, it's the Mean Streets of Gadgetzan brawl.
Post by: Darkmere on March 01, 2017, 07:25:52 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on March 01, 2017, 07:56:40 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on March 28, 2017, 07:36:31 pm
Post by: Darkmere on March 28, 2017, 08:15:40 pm
It's hard for me to work up that much excitement when half or more of the cards are unknown, and every single card reveal gets the "best ever" and "offensively awful" treatment at the same time.
Post by: frostshotgg on March 28, 2017, 08:50:48 pm
They have a fairly good set of cards so far. No 4 mana 7/7s, but the 4 mana adapt card could be really insane, and I think a lot of people aren't giving Sunkeeper Tarim the respect it deserves. Paladins actually have more answers than equality to jade spam, and it might give them enough breathing room to really cement that matchup more than it already will be. The flip side is that they're only losing Keeper of Uldaman, which has competitive cards for the slot so it doesn't actually get much weaker anyways. The rest of the rotation really doesn't do much to hurt them.
Paladins aren't getting the "Give a class tons and tons of op shit so their worst matchup is 60% winrate" treatment like Shaman got and Blizz tried to do with Priest, but that method of "balance" is cancerous and really hurting long term balancing.
Post by: Criptfeind on March 28, 2017, 09:05:37 pm
Furthermore the quest reward is... Like, I can totally see the idea, a stealth windfury dude with extra attack, can even use the extra buffs you have in your deck to make it super lethal. But even if that turns out to be good. There are ways to answer that. If that's the paladin win con you can still beat it with things like twisting nether, deadly shot, king mosh, kazakus random sheep, devolve, certain aoes (depending on how much health you get).... It's just too much riding on a card has answers to it. I mean, at least if Ysera gets rekt you get a dream card as consolation prize and you've not basically ruined your deck in order to run it.
I mean, I'm really hoping I'm wrong here, but I just do not see it at all. Maybe a slightly slower aggro paladin that can actually afford to quest at turn 1...? But. You're still not going to run enough buffs that you can really play all 6.
Post by: Darkmere on March 28, 2017, 10:03:13 pm
I'm really thinking most quests aren't going to be playable at all, but we'll see how well the "new control meta" shakes out (it never shakes out). I mean, the warlock and priest ones are very doable, but priest still needs a win condition in all that and hyper-aggro discolock without PO has... what use for those tokens? Still, the imp portal is more of a bonus for something that you were likely to do ANYway, but you'd damn well better have enough piss and vinegar to make up for passing turn 1.
I think it's more reasonable to start planning an elemental midrange deck.
Post by: Criptfeind on March 28, 2017, 10:13:36 pm
Uh, that said, the quest might be a bit harder to do then you're thinking. A pretty large amount of the time in discolock you're cheating the discard cards, casting them when you've got nothing left in hand, which won't count for the quest. I mean, sometimes you go full discosan with an imp or two on the board and discard like 5 cards and burn out your deck and win in a blaze of glorious drawing, but I think for discolock discarding 6 cards is actually not very common. It's going to take a slightly different deck I think.
Post by: Darkmere on March 28, 2017, 11:07:59 pm
What concerns me is how well locks can play the control game without Reno and with so many cards that slowly screw you over. I'm not sure they can really pull that off long enough to get a lot of value out of both the discard cards AND the portal.
That said, I'm pretty shit at warlock soooooooo....
Post by: frostshotgg on March 28, 2017, 11:47:33 pm
Re: Pally - The idea that "winmore" cards are inherently bad is such an absurd concept, at least to the extent that you're labeling all minion buffs winmore. Yes, there are cards that do nothing to advance the game state and if you're in a situation where it's good, the game is absolutely over, but buffs are not those, especially in a class that seems like it's going to be very heavily reliant on spamming out tokens. Buffs allow you to turn random tokens into serious threats, and if you have multiple tokens out and your opponent doesn't have aoe to clear them all off, there's nothing they can do to prevent your buffing, unlike killing a Gadgetzan for example.
Pally has a lot of bad buff cards. It also has some good ones. And there's still 4 cards unrevealed that they're getting, and they only need another 1 or 2 good buff cards to make playing 6 buffs in a game where they don't get entirely shut out pretty reasonable. It's not even remotely unreasonable to look at their quest and expect some powerful buffing that we haven't seen yet, when Priest has already gotten 2 deathrattles with at least one more presumably on the way.
Post by: Criptfeind on March 29, 2017, 06:26:45 am
Anyway, I didn't say buffs are bad because they are "winmore" (although they are also an example of bad winmore as well. but that's a whole nother thing I've not touched here yet). I said that they are bad because they are bad value and awkward when you have a lot of them. When you buffs a card, then that card dies, you've almost never gotten the card and mana cost's worth out of it that you put into it. If you buff a token, that's typically terrible value for the mana and single card. I mean, you say that paladin is suppose to be spamming tokens, but they don't have any really good token generators. The 1 mana spell is okay, but you're not going to make a deck around it. Stand against darkness is trash. The hero power is too slow to rely on for the basis of a buffing deck. This idea of a token based deck that then buffs up the tokens is a wisp of a fantasy that doesn't really exist.
Maybe in wild you could do like, aggro questing egg paladin. But these decks seem like they have a better option, just dropping the quest for a better turn 1.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on March 29, 2017, 12:09:36 pm
At the same time, the cost of running 12 buffs is severe. You need to sacrifice early game board presence to play your buffs; you need to sacrifice something in your deck - removal, other lategame, early minions - to have room for 40% of your deck to be buffs; buffs are awful without a minion on board, they're all awful against a whole bunch of already-being-played hard removal, many are awful against some already-being-played soft removal. And to top it all off, the reward is probably one of the worst we've seen. All of them, other than Galvadon, provide something special. Three of them also produce a massive 5 mana body, so Galvadon isn't unique in being a big beatstick.
Like, I'm not even sure if the magical Christmas land scenario for the Paladin Quest deck is that good. It's possible to turn 5 Galvadon, but if that gets removed you're empty handed with a deck full of dead draws and weak cards.
Post by: Leafsnail on March 29, 2017, 12:31:07 pm
Post by: RedWarrior0 on March 31, 2017, 02:18:28 pm
Warrior quest, on the other hand, actually looks playable. Sulfuras is super-good, and taunts naturally prolong the game. We also get a couple new good taunts.
Mage quest seems okay. Taking an extra turn can be good, but it's heavily reliant on having a board already. You don't really need to go that far out of your way to complete the quest, even in a Kazakus mage, which is important. But the quest reward is 5 mana. It's good with Doomsayer, it'll be good with Arcane Giant I guess, but I'm not 100% sold on it.
Post by: Criptfeind on March 31, 2017, 03:25:43 pm
Post by: Kansa on March 31, 2017, 03:45:55 pm
Post by: Darkmere on March 31, 2017, 04:00:35 pm
Buffs plus that epic paladin murloc make it a huge silence target, chucking buffs and all that value out the window. No amount of adaptations will save galvadon from a devolve, and you announce that play on turn 1.
But devolve is the ONLY magic bullet for it, so it's not that bad - provided you get stealth or spellimmune/warded/whatever it should be called.
I could see questing casino mage doing alright with the giants setup and ice blocks or part of an Exodia setup, maybe? Would be fun in wild with Thaurissan.
I'm really hyped to get more playtime for my Shaku Burglar though. It's not competitive, but it will be SO worth it to play the obsidian shard and my Luckydo Buccaneers, for once.
All in all it looks like a bunch of fun toys, I'm glad I pre-ordered and hoarded enough gold for an extra ~50 packs.
Post by: frostshotgg on March 31, 2017, 04:43:17 pm
RedWarrior, does your spreadsheet factor in mulliganing? I think it's pretty safe to say of your starting 2 non-quest cards, one will be a buff, so you only really need to draw 5 more.
Also I fucking hate the mage quest so much. "Let's give every class a quest that at least requires a bit of dedicated deckbuilding. Except mage. Mage can get their quest for free by doing shit they already do. Make it a short quest too, none of that 10 murlocs nonsense." And of course the reward for it is fucking broken, why wouldn't it be? At least people will have something else to complain about besides jade druid ruining everyone's control meta dreams.
Post by: sambojin on March 31, 2017, 07:12:44 pm
Hallucinate seemed quite good at 1 mana, especially as anti-shaman, because they have so many nice spells to discover for most other decks to use. Generically ok'ish vs most opponents in my view. A handy 1-of for some interesting options.
The "pally button" murlock totem seemed good too. I don't know why, it's 2 mana for a split 1/4 of stats on the turn you cast it, but it can be better than that as well. Totem synergy, murlock synergy, but basically a free button if it survives each turn (and some crappy stats if it doesn't). I like it, but I'm probably wrong.
The rogue's petals seemed overcosted at 1 damage for 1 mana, but guaranteeing combo options in hand might be worth it. Maybe.
There were some other good ones too, mixed in with lots of bad stuff.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on March 31, 2017, 07:16:18 pm
RedWarrior, does your spreadsheet factor in mulliganing? I think it's pretty safe to say of your starting 2 non-quest cards, one will be a buff, so you only really need to draw 5 more.No; it's assuming you don't mulligan anything, and considers the opening hand (other than your quest) to be draws as well. So the sixth draw will be turn four on the play (2 cards in hand plus one each on turns 1, 2, 3, and 4), or turn three with coin.
Mulligan logic is harder to do, and is probably better done with a highly-repeated simulation, since the mulled cards get sent back into the population after the redraw. I'll see what I can do about that.
Also, that spreadsheet was before the Primalfin Champion reveal, and that card is by far the best minion in the Paladin Quest deck because instead of digging for 6 buffs, you only need to dig for 3 or 4, and that has a huge (http://i.imgur.com/8LlJIQ5.png) impact (http://i.imgur.com/4TTI3sq.png) (those are the same spreadsheet, but with the 6 in the formula replaced by 4 and 3 respectively). I'm still somewhat pessimistic about the paladin quest, but Primalfin Champion definitely makes it much better.
The original spreadsheet had the following in C3 (top left corner, 6 buffs in deck in 6 draws), extended down and to the right:
=1-HYPGEOM.DIST(6,C$2,$B3,29,TRUE)+HYPGEOM.DIST(6,C$2,$B3,29,FALSE)
Post by: frostshotgg on March 31, 2017, 09:38:10 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on April 01, 2017, 08:07:23 am
Also on the whole the deck feels quite meta dependent? Idk, it's hard for me to imagine the buff deck being good against the three decks with easiest access to kill effects that don't kill, mage, shaman, and rogue. So we'll have to see what percentage of the meta the various decks take. Shaman looks like they are getting a pretty good deal, in that they can take the best of the elemental if they are good or jade and mix and match both together. Elemental jade? Could be a thing. And they will wreck any buff deck incredibly hard with hexes and devolves. Of course their early game is getting hit, so maybe they'll fall a bit. But there's some like, okayish elemental early game. It seems like one could cobble together something from that. Certainly if elemental shaman can't get it up against aggressive decks there's not going to be much hope for any of the quest decks.
Post by: Leafsnail on April 01, 2017, 08:36:01 am
It's hard for me to imagine that there's not some incredibly broken things you can do with an extra turn, even if it does cost 5 mana.What it says is effectively "Your minions gain charge/can attack again. Draw a card. Refill your mana crystals. Activate all start/end of turn effects".
I imagine it will lead to an instant kill most of the time. On the first turn you play Arcane Giants plus any other random minions in your hand like Apprentice. Then on the second turn you smash in with all your minions and throw burn at their face. Or maybe you set up a spell power guy like Evolved Kobold on the first turn then have 10 mana to exploit it on the next turn.
Post by: Criptfeind on April 01, 2017, 08:44:49 am
Post by: RedWarrior0 on April 01, 2017, 10:57:28 am
I don't think it'll be an all-in combo deck like Freeze Mage. The cards you need in your deck to activate it dilute the deck too much, so you won't be able to dig hard to giants+Alexstrasza. Instead, I think it has a role similar to the Leeroy+faceless package in Renolock: it serves as a kill condition for a control deck, instead of or alongside Antonidas.
I'll also say that the card is still pretty bad on it's own in a non-tempo Mage. Without a combo, it simply lets you turn a strong board position into a dominant one or maybe turn a bad one into an okay one.
Post by: Darkmere on April 01, 2017, 12:33:38 pm
It depends on how well control mage can function, but I can't see it being THAT common.
Then again, aviana/Kun/C'thun sounds ridiculous too and it was competitive, so who knows?
Post by: frostshotgg on April 01, 2017, 01:14:17 pm
EDIT: Oh Molten Reflection. Somehow missed that in the pile of revealed cards. For what it's worth, you could just play the second molten reflection before time warp. You're probably not even close to short on spells to activate Antonidas with.
Post by: Darkmere on April 01, 2017, 01:37:11 pm
If anyone's curious and/or bored, Packr (https://speedodevo.github.io/packr/) updated to JUG cards.
Post by: Leafsnail on April 01, 2017, 05:10:01 pm
I imagine if you put those cards in your deck you'd end up using Molten Reflection on Arcane Giant most of the time to just beat their face in.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on April 07, 2017, 12:07:37 am
I'm sort of curious whether Wild freeze mages will switch to a quest build, but my inclination is no. The burn build can dedicate more slots to digging for their combo and stall, plus they don't need to jump through the hoop of finishing the quest. On the other hand, the quest build can still use its random cards to dig and stall, and can win through high armor, and more easily beats a 40 health priest.
Post by: Darkmere on April 07, 2017, 03:09:02 am
Anyone got any good stories from today?
I packed both warlock legendaries, Elise, and Umbra. Not a fan of discard, LOLRANDOMLOL is way too high.
I like what they've done with thematics; instead of gangs and cross-cards there's "neutral elemental packages" available (and beasts, too) to supplement class cards. I've tried elemental shaman (without Kalimos) and mage (without... anything much) and they feel kinda-similar but different enough to be fun in their own way.
The new burgle tools in rogue are... I won a few games but not enough to pretend it could work on either ladder. Didn't help that I played 5 mirror matches in a row and most of the burgle cards don't do rogue synergy. Upside, I finally got to use my luckydo buccaneers with the obsidian shard.
Oh, and I packed 2 golden molten blades! along with some other golden card generator cards. The value!
Post by: Criptfeind on April 07, 2017, 09:23:27 am
Also adapt feels pretty okay. I've been running Ravasaur runt and Ravenous pterrordax in discozoo and they seem to typically end up pretty good. Idk for pterrordax will make the end cut, since it feels hard to run all the 1/1 lovers and all the discard lovers and when I get around to crafting Zavas I think I'm going to have to cut out some stuff. Ravasaur is an absolutely brutal punish against the unrefined quest decks though, turn two 5/2 can pretty much end the game if their hand is full of quest activators and no answers.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on April 07, 2017, 11:33:43 am
Alexstrasza cancels 40 health just as well as 30. Still lacks that exodia style though ;)Oh, for sure, and 40 points of burn is still possible with Thaurissan. Which is why I said "more easily beats" and not "is able to beat"
So the Rogue quest is actually really good (in the day 1 meta, which is not necessarily meaningful). Playing against it feels almost like playing against a jade druid, except significantly faster and their dudes stay as 5/5s and usually have other effects including charge. It's scary. I don't want to think about what it's like with Conceal.
I've played a decent amount of Quest Mage and it feels a lot like Freeze Mage (because it's basically a Freeze Mage variant). If aggro stays strong and prevalent, that's probably bad news for the deck, since strong aggro is the main reason why Freeze wasn't good post-Gadgetzan.
I've heard good things about Taunt Warrior but don't have any experience on either end of the matchup; their quest is to heavily slow down the game, and completing it gives them a great win condition. I'm thinking the Warrior quest might be my next craft.
Post by: Wiles on April 07, 2017, 03:31:54 pm
Post by: Darkmere on April 07, 2017, 04:19:59 pm
From what I can tell, the warlock quest is trash. Often as not I've had to play discards for tempo and discarded a 2-disco card, which tanks the quest most of the time, even with Malch's Imp. Even after all that, two 3/2's a turn are easy to clear AND the portal blocks you from getting good direwolf alpha trades. If you can win with the quest complete, you'd have completely stomped them without playing the quest at all. Am disappoint.
Taunt warrior is horrible to play against. Every turn is like the old Crusher Shaman swing turns, with the endgame rounded out by coinflips. I got the ole' ragbolt to the face 3 turns in a row despide 3 or 4 minions on the board. Interactive!
Murloc quest is even worse. Vomit hand for 4 turns, play the big guy, vomit hand a few more turns.
Mage quest... I haven't seen anyone actually pull it off but I've heard stories of 6+ iceblocks just stopping the game until they fished for exodia. So I dunno.
Questing Malchezaar priest in wild is ridiculous, just because it can be so disgustingly greedy. I had a game versus kazakus, reno, cairne, sylvanas, two tortollans, two deathlords, dragonfire potions and what I can only assume was a N'zoth finisher. 20 cards into the deck, I had done absolutely nothing of note.
I got in a good match with elemental shaman vs handbuff murloc paladin earlier. As expected, silencing everything they have just ends their whole gameplan. Their buffs are too greedy, even the cheap ones.
Post by: Criptfeind on April 07, 2017, 07:07:10 pm
From what I can tell, the warlock quest is trash. Often as not I've had to play discards for tempo and discarded a 2-disco card, which tanks the quest most of the time, even with Malch's Imp. Even after all that, two 3/2's a turn are easy to clear AND the portal blocks you from getting good direwolf alpha trades. If you can win with the quest complete, you'd have completely stomped them without playing the quest at all. Am disappoint.
It sounds like you're playing traditional discard zoo with the quest, which isn't going to work. Idk if a deck for the warlock quest will ever come about, but if it does, it's gunna be a more mid range or control orientated one who can actually discard a bunch more slowly over the course of the game then draw out the value from the portal, the discard zoo is just too fast for it. Of course, who knows if such a deck is even possible with a jaraxus alternative.
Post by: Darkmere on April 07, 2017, 10:26:25 pm
It just seems like the deck is vulnerable to aggro because they'll rush past your stuff (even the taunthound) and you need to leverage the tempo gains from your discard cards to really make a showing. Longer games are much tougher to nail discards on the three cards you need, and the dinomancer that deathrattle summons something you discarded is WAY too slow.
That's really my issue with it; there's a lot of random on top of random and it feels impossible to leverage the tempo from your discards or the value from your late-game portal (especially when the portal blocks trading tools like dire wolf alpha and your free imps are 2 health so they're easy to pick off or just ignore that late in the game).
Post by: Darkmere on April 14, 2017, 02:52:46 am
The quest mage deck is the shittiest thing I've ever encountered in the game. There's nothing to DO against it, you just sit there twiddling your dick while the other guy plays solitaire for a while and ignores you. Thank god they rotated out ice lance, coz Freeze Mage was unfun right? Let's just take out every element of counterplay to that deck save one piece of shit card that will, guaranteed, fuck you over against everything else.
There should be another 4 paragraphs of extremely graphic descriptors here but I'm going to skip it. Any deck whose counter is "hope they draw like shit and get bad coinflips from the RNG" shouldn't go into the fucking game. Shouldn't be that difficult for a person over the age of 5 to grasp. I guess that's asking a bit much.
Post by: Leafsnail on April 14, 2017, 06:34:19 am
The deck's best counter is Dirty Rat, incidentally. If you hit a combo piece (and if you time it right you usually will because there's so few minions in the deck) they basically can't win. If you're playing Paladin getting Eye for an Eye off your Hydrologist will actually no joke usually win you the game, because it becomes impossible for them to win after you reduce them to 1 health. Eater of Secrets is also an option but it's more narrow.
I really like the current meta, it's by far the most fun I've had playing Hearthstone. There's a lot of new, viable decks for every class and they mostly have some fun things going on. I've mostly been playing Taunt Warrior but I'm looking to craft Sherazin because the new Miracle Rogue looks really fun.
Post by: frostshotgg on April 14, 2017, 08:04:10 am
Post by: Darkmere on April 14, 2017, 12:18:59 pm
Aside from watching someone else play solitaire, I think this is the best expansion they've done though. I've managed to make a pretty good deck for every class for the first time ever. It's pretty exciting.
Post by: RedWarrior0 on April 15, 2017, 10:26:24 am
Post by: frostshotgg on April 15, 2017, 12:22:32 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on April 15, 2017, 04:17:43 pm
Freeze Mage actually still might be more powerful than Quest Mage. Freeze was a deck before Thaurissan, and ice lance wasn't a key component of Classic Freeze like it was for the spell power/Thaurissan version. With Reno gone, you can safely burn out decks over 2-3 turns or use Alexstrasza/pyroblast or Antonidas. And Primordial Glyph is incredibly good in the deck.According to Vicious Syndicate's stats Freeze Mage has the highest winrate of any deck right now (55%) while Quest Mage has the lowest for any commonly played deck (35%).
I think Primordial Glyph is a strong candidate for best Mage card ever. I can't even imagine a deck where you'd want to cut it. You get flexibility in terms of both when you spend your mana and what you're casting at no cost at all. You can find extra copies of your "overpowered" spells such as Frost Bolt and Fireball. And it's not just a third copy of Ice Block or Frost Nova, it's a third copy that you can play on the same turn as Alex which is just ridiculous.
Arcanologist is also very good, it's a big upgrade over Novice Engineer in terms of stats and finds the cards you really need. It and Primordial Glyph also allow you to run Medivh's Valet which is a strong card too. Since those both have on-curve bodies I've actually gotten a few points of minion damage in when I've played which has been relevant.
Post by: xaritscin on April 15, 2017, 06:56:52 pm
tried my new frankenstein deck on standard, yeah pretty much lost to anything. a mage with charge cards, typical face huntard with broken beasts, murloc paladins, pussy ass priests stealing stuff and killing my cards without getting any damage, golem shaman (seriously?) and of course, the new quest rouge.
what a time to play Hearthstone, it seems Mage has been in the dumpster this expansion. unless you play shitty stuff like Quests or elemental bullshit i dont really see the appeal.
Post by: Leafsnail on April 15, 2017, 06:58:57 pm
Post by: Jopax on April 16, 2017, 03:53:10 am
Besides, you can always go play wild where there's still OTK bullshit aplenty.
Post by: Darkmere on April 16, 2017, 11:15:41 am
But... if you really didn't know about the standard rotation that's been coming for a full year, I don't know what to say.
Post by: xaritscin on April 17, 2017, 09:05:25 am
anyways i was in a bad mood that day.
yesterday i reinvented the deck and was able to get the rest of the victories i needed for unlocking Maiev with only like 3-4 defeats.
Post by: Jopax on April 17, 2017, 02:35:19 pm
And I thought pirate warrior and mid-range shaman were bad. but this is a whole new level of terrible.
Post by: frostshotgg on April 17, 2017, 04:17:56 pm
It's a really frustrating place to be, because the interactive decks are actually pretty good, and show hearthstone's good side, but half the meta right now is just hearthstone's ugly, ugly innards.
Post by: xaritscin on April 17, 2017, 11:47:13 pm
the other thing that annoys me the most is when people start spamming legendaries like if they had 0 cost. cant deal with so many broken stuff. i mean, i can only put so much copies of polymorphy or spells to clean the board but its not enough when people calls bullshit like Ysera or the like at alarming rates.
specially when i cant even put my good cards without having them deleted by crappy cards with abusive effects.
Post by: frostshotgg on April 18, 2017, 12:06:14 pm
It's also a really ineffective deck. You can usually just run them over.
Post by: Leafsnail on April 18, 2017, 06:56:13 pm
e: here's one take on Mage.
https://clips.twitch.tv/ExuberantTentativeWoodpeckerKlappa
Post by: xaritscin on April 18, 2017, 10:04:34 pm
i mean, yeah we get ridiculous stuff like patches the pirate (althought a demon dedicated to piracy is a really interesting idea).
but then we have stuff like the depictions of N'zothh and Y'shaarj which are practically absent in WoW. the whole Un'goro expansion gives much more flesh to an area in the MMORPG that is really limited in terms of size and mobs, Barnabus is a sauropod for example, a dinosaur not featured in the game, and there's also the turtles which sound like a nice addition as a minor faction (much like the wolvar or the gorlocs in Sholazar Basin).
the Gadgetzan expansion gave a 3 side war in a city that is basically a small outpost in WoW. yeah its a bit cliche the whole gangster war thing but the factions themselves would be really cool as alignable factions in the MMORPG. golem invocations, advanced gunnery, consumable potions for combat, and there are also sentient Virmen, which are but a trash mob in Pandaria.
and then there are the adventures, The Explorers League gave some interesting things around archaelogy in Azeroth, not counting characters like Raafam or the explorers which are much more flavory than plain old Harrison Jones.
Post by: Darkmere on April 23, 2017, 06:38:19 pm
And I have choice paralysis.I'm at 4300 free dust, plus shitty cards (Huhuran and wrathion, a couple others) that are garbage that I can cash it for ANYthing usable.
I don't have: Kalimos, Tirion, Wickerflame, Tarim, VanCleef, Sherazin, Leeroy, Alex, Jaraxxus, N'zoth, any quests other than Warlock (hahahahah.......), dirty rats, any iceblocks, Pyros, Finja, Kazakus, Ysera, any Deathwing, the stupid-ass aggro Hydra from JUG, glimmerroot, dragonfire potions, cabalist tomes, the core Wild package (belchers, shredders, healbots, etc.), one Doomsayer, the list goes on.
I'm also planning to run out a pity timer (7 packs since last leg) for JUG packs.
But now that I can "buy in" to a class or two that's not shaman I have no idea what to even look at seriously.
Post by: Leafsnail on April 23, 2017, 07:33:22 pm
Other than that you should be able to make at least one or two decks as long as they're not Paladin with all its class legendaries. It depends how you want to play Hearthstone.
Post by: Darkmere on April 23, 2017, 08:20:44 pm
Nah, I've got:
Elemental handbuff paladin
Elemental shaman (-Kalimos +Al'akir)
Miraclemental Lyra priest
Silence priest
Shitty Warlock stuff (basically what can kinda-work without Jaraxxus. It's bad.)
Midrange huntard
and an assortment of Janky Shit like burgle rogue that I can use to complete quests.
I just have no idea what I'd really like because I've not really been able to play much before. It's maddening!
Post by: Leafsnail on April 24, 2017, 03:39:38 pm
Obviously it's pretty expensive - 2x Ice Block, 2x Doomsayer, 2x Pyroblast (or 1x pyro+1xantonidas), 2x Primordial Glyph, Alex are all pretty essential. There are a bunch of experimental more aggressive builds of Mage that play Mana Wyrms that may be worth looking into as well.
Post by: Jopax on April 24, 2017, 04:28:04 pm
Edit: Toast is an evil evil man :D (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENmE9_xU0Mc)
Post by: Darkmere on April 24, 2017, 06:34:05 pm
However... I've got the core of Kibler's Lyra Medivh control priest, which really clicks with me so far. I'd need to craft a Mana Geode and Dragonfire potions (and Glimmerroot? is that one run in that deck?), but I've heard it really lacks any burst tools and aggro ruins it.
That or maybe Kalimos for jade elemental shaman. That's the only card I'm missing, and it seems to have fantastic comeback/closer potential. I think this one's a sleeper because people are ecstatic about getting paladin and hunter back.
I just ran out my classic pity timer... on Cenarius. So I won't be getting Tyrion or VC anytime soon for sure. Better than the Milhouse I expected, by a small margin.
Post by: xaritscin on April 24, 2017, 08:28:02 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on April 25, 2017, 05:14:23 am
Elemental Shaman is fine. It's good against aggro and Hunter but struggles in midrange mirrors (and against Mage, I think).
Post by: wereboar on April 25, 2017, 06:00:41 am
Elemental mage is sorta a cheap fun deck which works well at low-ish rank.
Really enjoyed Toast's anti-meta deck. Absolutely hilarious when you play against pirates or mages.
Also control priest is alright.
Post by: xaritscin on April 25, 2017, 02:20:31 pm
also, brewmasters are a really good set of cards. resummoning c'thun minions or reveal minions is incredibly efficient most of the time.
Post by: Darkmere on April 25, 2017, 06:19:23 pm
I wouldn't craft Mana Geode, Golakka Crawler is probably better anyway. The control priest decks don't seem great, they have a lot of value but can't really win the game most of the time.
Elemental Shaman is fine. It's good against aggro and Hunter but struggles in midrange mirrors (and against Mage, I think).
Looking at HSReplay and VS Data Reaper, control priest, ele shaman, and murloc paladin are all about 52-54% win rate. Those are the ones I'm leaning towards at the moment, depending on how the next few packs shake out.
If anyone has the chance to try those, I recommend them. From what I've played the core is pretty fun.
speaking of priests, what's the name for those that deck on purify? im getting a lot of people that spams "can't attack" minions and then silence them with purify. very smart move.
Silence/OTK decks. The alternatives are Miracle, Control, Dragon and Quest but quest is much more potent in Wild.
What blows my mind after a few games of silence priest is how willing people are to leave unsilenced stuff alone. Hugh Mongus will happily sit there unmolested a few turns while I gather my combo pieces, and with shadow visions it's actually pretty reliable even without Lyra.
Post by: Criptfeind on April 25, 2017, 07:04:16 pm
I think the reason people don't trade into plant priest minions is like, it's hard to tell exactly how hard they are going in on the concept. I've seen ones running the inner fire combo, and ones that don't. But it's like, if they don't have the combo you're just making their trades for them and you've lost a lot of stuff. And if they do have the combo they still gota draw it, which is asking a lot, at least in the early game. Idk, it's not always the easiest decision to make. I don't think I've ever lost to a plant priest by just going face, demanding that they actually pull their combo quickly is often too much for them. But they are pretty rare so sample size is low there.
Post by: wereboar on April 26, 2017, 05:59:20 am
Post by: Darkmere on April 26, 2017, 10:39:58 am
I don't think you should rely on those stats very much, Darkmere. You have to control for the fact that cheaper decks will be played more by very casual players and noobs and thus their win rates will appear much lower than the deck quality actually suggests.
Both of those sites get their aggregate data from addons, which kind of rules out noobs to begin with since they won't be the ones to seek out that kind of stuff. Still, what do you suggest I use, then?
Post by: Criptfeind on April 26, 2017, 10:59:12 am
Post by: Jopax on May 02, 2017, 04:03:26 pm
Nope, can't do it. First game was kinda ok even. But the second and third, holy fuck, the pain train went full speed over Trump, and then backed up over him a few times for good measure. When you get three consecutive turns of big minion removal, two of which were entirely RNG based asspull cards, while at the same time shitting out damn good Atiesh minions you can't really do much but just concede and run away.
Competitive games shouldn't have so much RNG variance, wasn't the whole point of nerfing Yogg to reduce that? But two expansions later it's even worse. On the one hand, I like the random bullshit, it makes for entertaining watching and salt, plus really really cool moments when the stars align. But you can't go and push the very same system as a competitive thing done for money.
Post by: Darkmere on May 02, 2017, 04:56:32 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on May 02, 2017, 05:16:00 pm
It's always been players who pushed the game to be "competitive" but blizz has more or less encouraged that mindset. On the flip side, they've refused to develop the game with competitive in mind, so at some point one side is going to crack. My best prediction is that at some point a couple years from now, some other card game will find a way to capture the competitive audience while also being appealing casually and HS will slowly leak players to that until it collapses, but that doesn't seem to be happening any time soon and Blizz is content to sit on their enormous cash cow.
Post by: Criptfeind on May 03, 2017, 06:06:24 am
Also on yogg I think there was a bit of both, it was too strong, but also too random. They always said Yoggs randomness was bad for competitive play. It wasn't necessarily broken, they just couldn't have something SO random, be good enough to see play at tournaments. IE: I think if it has the same average strength as it did, but wasn't random, it might very well be okay. Maybe... I have no idea what that'd look like in a card, because of course if it wasn't random it'd be a lot stronger and then it would be broken and yada yada yada.
Post by: Darkmere on May 03, 2017, 11:06:26 am
It was so reliable anyone with any amount of spells (except for like, zoo locks) ran a copy just to coinflip losing games and it worked often enough to be worth it. Contrast taunt warrior now, where WEW you just flip a coin a whole bunch as your win condition. And they designed it for that. Yogg was too good because it wasn't actually random enough.
It's still a shit card, though. I don't miss it at all.
Post by: Leafsnail on May 03, 2017, 03:48:21 pm
Hearhstone is a competitive gahahahahahahahahhaa... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xv3fcUzYPz8)I don't see what the problem with game 2 is supposed to be. Shoop put answers to Savannah Highmane in his deck and he used them to avoid getting run over in the midgame. Both of his Glyphs were absolutely awful (7 mana to kill a 5 mana minion that already drew his opponent cards and 3 mana to kill a 1/1 respectively) but he was still able to win the game due to playing correctly. I think it was a good game all around.
Nope, can't do it. First game was kinda ok even. But the second and third, holy fuck, the pain train went full speed over Trump, and then backed up over him a few times for good measure. When you get three consecutive turns of big minion removal, two of which were entirely RNG based asspull cards, while at the same time shitting out damn good Atiesh minions you can't really do much but just concede and run away.
Competitive games shouldn't have so much RNG variance, wasn't the whole point of nerfing Yogg to reduce that? But two expansions later it's even worse. On the one hand, I like the random bullshit, it makes for entertaining watching and salt, plus really really cool moments when the stars align. But you can't go and push the very same system as a competitive thing done for money.
I'm even more confused about your comments of the third game because I think Trump actually deserved to lose that one.
- Ozruk over Burnbristle was a bafflingly terrible choice from Stonehill Defender. He knew his opponent had hard removal and multiple ways to discover more hard removal, and large, slow taunts aren't even particularly good against burn mage which can just ignore the board in a lot of cases. The SW:D was unfortunate (although note that Shoop still had a Polymorph in his deck that he didn't draw) but that situation would not have happened if Trump didn't make a poor decision earlier.
- He took a lot of damage running his face into minions when he didn't need to (both the Medivh and the Kidnapper). He would've lost very fast if he didn't win a 50/50 Rag roll to heal his face.
- Again I wouldn't say Shatter was a good Glyph roll. There are a lot of better cards he could've gotten, he just made the best of it.
Just because a famous streamer lost doesn't mean it was unfair and due to variance.
Post by: Darkmere on May 10, 2017, 12:20:27 pm
I'm 1 for 11 so far, because my opponent conceded. But I'm really ready to go hunt down whoever designs these fucking things and slap the shit out of them until I break my hand.
Then do it again with the other hand.
EDIT: I figured it out. Just play rogue, their brawl is rando spells that summon rando-minions. I.e. extreme tempo. Priest might be okay if you can play something before turn 6, they have cloneball with all the rando legendaries (or in my case, deathwin, nefarian, and that taunt piece of shit from TGT).
Warrior is auto-loss, they're bugged to give their opponent buff spells too - so your opponent gets their rules AND your rules for free. Don't bother.
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on May 29, 2017, 03:54:29 pm
Igneous elemental procs the quest even if it is the first time you play it. So everyone plays it, naturally.
Does Blizzard have a team of monkeys testing it around the clock? Because this is beyond ridiculous.
Post by: Criptfeind on May 29, 2017, 04:21:21 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on May 29, 2017, 05:58:21 pm
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on May 30, 2017, 03:17:28 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on May 30, 2017, 03:26:59 pm
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on May 30, 2017, 03:44:23 pm
You're seeing someone play igneous elemental and get the quest reward immediately without playing other minion? That seems like a hella bug. Does this happen a lot?
You're saying they can, for example, on turn two coin out the elemental and then get their quest done on that turn? That's an extremely common card in an extremely common deck that apparently has a completely game breaking bug (that'd have to be. Server side right? Getting the quest card?) Honestly that's a pretty extra ordinary claim. I feel like I might be misunderstanding what you mean though, since such a big seems practically impossible.
I think I described it poorly: it is not that game-breaking: it doesn't proc the whole quest all at once, just 1 "share" or I am not sure what you'd call it, of it. Just 1/4, as though it were the second time the card was played, even though it is the first time. Not completely ground-shattering, but really annoying considering the quest already feels like it takes very little time to complete and doesn't need any unintentional acceleration, especially from a card that already makes sense to play with the quest.
Post by: Darkmere on May 30, 2017, 04:48:21 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on May 30, 2017, 07:10:57 pm
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on May 31, 2017, 06:45:55 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on May 31, 2017, 08:27:59 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on June 01, 2017, 12:15:07 am
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on June 03, 2017, 09:19:04 pm
The number on the quest lists the highest number of any monster played. If they haven't played anything, the highest is 0 copies of one card. If they've played several cards 1 time, the highest any card has is 1. If they play one of them again, it's now 2. If they go back and bounce a different monster twice, the highest is 3. They could then play the one that was 2 before 2 more times and finish the quest, regardless of any other minions played.
Thanks for the explanation, i thought it was just a count of repeat plays of minions, this really clears things up for me!
Post by: Neonivek on June 04, 2017, 07:29:01 pm
Post by: frostshotgg on June 04, 2017, 07:52:37 pm
Post by: Arx on June 05, 2017, 01:06:29 am
I think the classic rotation did a lot to reduce power creep, though. Also Thaurissan going out of standard got rid of a lot of the sillier combo potential.
Post by: Neonivek on June 05, 2017, 04:02:36 am
And the power creep for decks is a LOT more noticeable if you use the basic decks. Though yeah I am glad to hear they are squashing the broken combos.
Post by: Arx on June 05, 2017, 04:47:55 am
Post by: Criptfeind on June 05, 2017, 06:15:17 am
Also notable is that about half the cards in standard are classic or basic cards, and although this isn't an exact count by any means if you go and look at the top decks, it seems like often roughly halve the cards in them are classic or basic. There's isn't quite a "new normal" for playable cards at least. Although there are plenty of UNPLAYABLE cards that got power creeped on, that's not really effecting the balance of the game as a whole.
Of course, there's always outlaying cards to these general idea. I think anyone can see that cards like arcaneologest or meteor is pretty far above the curve power wise, and is pretty hard power creep on two drops. But that's not, at least yet, the norm for cards power level.
I think maybe the closest thing to power creep is the way that they've heavily pushed decks that can get themselves into an almost unassailable position. Things like taunt warrior, jade druid, and to some degree crystal rogue. It's not a totally new idea, jaraxxus did this as well, of setting yourself up into an almost unbeatable position where it's "do or die" for your opponent. But it's been heavily pushed (probably as an attempt to permanently eliminate classic "go 10 turns into fatigue" control decks and force the game to be more midrange to aggro as a whole.) I'm not sure if I'd call this power creep. In a way it's heavily pushing the late game power of these decks, and certainly I'd expect them to mostly crush the old control decks. But at the same time they are that powerful in general, and the old midrange or aggro decks should still do well enough against them.
Also you might be more understandable if you call mana and mana crystals mana instead of crystals. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone refer to them as just "crystals". Mostly mana. Sometimes mana crystals. I had no idea wtf you were talking about in your first post, and it doesn't help that "crystal" is the name of a popular deck type right now. (specifically crystal or quest rogue)
Post by: Neonivek on June 05, 2017, 06:31:41 am
Decks get more powerful as combos and power cards become available and less powerful as those combos and cards get rotated out. It's pretty unfair to directly compare a basics only deck to a standard deck
Until they change the basic deck (something I whole heartedly believe they should, but I think they don't on the basis that it would require them to give away free cards and decks) it is pretty fair game all things considered to bring it up.
The fact that the basic deck is meant to be "viable, decent but not spectacular deck" and is becoming more and more garbage as time goes on... tells you where the creep is going.
Especially since power creep isn't a "bad" thing necessarily. It typically leads to bad things, but it isn't bad in it of itself. So it isn't like I am being judgmental.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 05, 2017, 06:36:29 am
If so, those are in the same place they've been since day one of hearthstone. The gutter.
Post by: Arx on June 05, 2017, 07:02:51 am
The fact that the basic deck is meant to be "viable, decent but not spectacular deck"
The devs might be worse at Hearthstone than I thought. Don't some of those decks have Silverback Patriarch in them?
Post by: Neonivek on June 05, 2017, 07:21:21 am
The fact that the basic deck is meant to be "viable, decent but not spectacular deck"
The devs might be worse at Hearthstone than I thought. Don't some of those decks have Silverback Patriarch in them?
Well... intentionally putting in bad cards isn't unheard of in Trading Card Game prebuild decks. Though yeah they are meant to be decent...
Though if you want to get into the outright terrible "Tutorial Deck/Basic Deck/Starting Deck" the Shaman's starting deck is up there.
Given most people who play have decent decks now... Upgrading the starting decks is something I believe they should do.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 05, 2017, 07:32:03 am
Post by: Neonivek on June 05, 2017, 07:45:09 am
Post by: Darkmere on June 29, 2017, 12:01:22 am
If you have 40 dust to spare, you can farm all the Patches folks with a priest and Power Word: Glory. It's awesome, I actually hit the 100 gold win cap for the first time since I started playing.
Unrelated, anyone in Wild using the Summoning Stone mage deck? I'm thinking about crafting it for wacky hijinx and whatever, but it's expensive-ish and I'd like to at least survive a few ladder matches with the damn thing.
Post by: Criptfeind on June 29, 2017, 08:13:34 am
On the whole I'm a little bit surprised that they are making the change at this point, since although rogue certainly warps the meta, it's seemingly introduced a cycle of rogue<aggro<control<rogue. Which I feel is sorta the most balanced hearthstones been for quite a while and I personally thought that this was more or less what they wanted with jade druid. I guess they've either decided that they can keep the cycle with a rogue nerf and jade druid, or that it's actually not fun (which I have to admit it is sorta blegh feeling to play a lot of the match up that exist.)
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 29, 2017, 11:09:31 am
Finally, a good Brawl. I played SEVERAL hunter/Patches games before I switched to a counter-strategy.
If you have 40 dust to spare, you can farm all the Patches folks with a priest and Power Word: Glory. It's awesome, I actually hit the 100 gold win cap for the first time since I started playing.
I did exactly that, anticipating Patches decks. Instead I ran into two Mind Blast priests in a row. =/
Post by: Darkmere on June 29, 2017, 12:12:38 pm
Finally, a good Brawl. I played SEVERAL hunter/Patches games before I switched to a counter-strategy.
If you have 40 dust to spare, you can farm all the Patches folks with a priest and Power Word: Glory. It's awesome, I actually hit the 100 gold win cap for the first time since I started playing.
I did exactly that, anticipating Patches decks. Instead I ran into two Mind Blast priests in a row. =/
Yeah, bad matchups happen. No reason not to concede instantly and try again, though.
Quest rogue is kind of... eh. I've won more than lost against them even without aggro decks, but I didn't really enjoy the games other than watching my opponent flail helplessly against draw RNG.
I doubt it will be playable after the change unless there's a shadowstep clone printed in the next set, barring the wild mill quest deck that treats the quest as a kind of side objective. I get why people think it's not fun, but there's other decks I find equally unfun (any mage deck with alexstrasza, quest warrior) that seem to be ignored or given a pass for some reason.
I've only been playing a year but the "oppressive control utopia" meta that people refer to a lot seems absurd. I get why you would want to keep fatigue out as a win condition and approve, but I think that's more a function of not giving stupid fatigue decks stupid tools to prolong matches instead of printing magic bullet cards like jade idol to keep them down. People are going to gravitate towards aggro for simple efficiency, just due to ladder mechanics.
Post by: frostshotgg on June 29, 2017, 09:04:06 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on June 30, 2017, 11:35:06 am
Part of the issue with quest rogue was that it was a solitaire deck that was just unreasonably binary. The nature of it means you can get flooded way too hard with bounces or bounce targets and just brick and do nothing for 8 turns, or you just go off and there's nothing the opponent could have done. Unlike other solitaire decks of the past, quest rogue hinged on turn 3 instead of turn 30, so not only was it a deck type that blizzard hates to begin with, but it was an especially unhealthy variant of it.
yeah, i think this. it had some chance of exploding unreasonably early, or sputtering and never getting anywhere.
Post by: Criptfeind on July 05, 2017, 01:18:15 pm
Post by: Darkmere on July 05, 2017, 04:54:59 pm
Post by: Cthulufaic on July 05, 2017, 05:24:25 pm
I predict a heroic brawl in the near future, probably next week.Speaking of tavern brawls, this week's one is kinda meh in my opinion. Maybe its just that its wild and I don't have any wild cards except Azure Drake so I get people using real strong wild stuff against me, but I think that a boss-style tavern brawl where both players try and defeat rag would have been better.
Post by: Criptfeind on July 05, 2017, 06:19:44 pm
Post by: Darkmere on July 05, 2017, 07:37:36 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on July 06, 2017, 09:22:50 pm
Big thing is each class gets a card that turns them into a death knight. Hunter gets a 6 mana one, gives 5 armor, 2 damage to enemy aoe, and the hero power is you discover two beasts and get a minion with the abilities, health, attack, and mana cost of both into your hand. Very slow, but the side aoe and armor aren't actually that terrible so maybe... Er. Probably not though, in my opinion (if you wanta deck that crushes late with massively powerful minions might as well go jade and get them for less mana and more reliably right?)
Still. 9 more Jaraxxus, at least some are going to stick! Going be cool. Hopefully.
Edit: Oh. And they are also technically a new card type. So probably no hilarious counterspelled or randomly found deathknights sadly.
Post by: Darkmere on July 07, 2017, 04:40:42 am
I hope with the extra expansion of cards they start pushing under-represented archetypes instead of shoveling filler in, but that's likely not going to happen.
Still going to pre-order though.
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on July 07, 2017, 05:51:11 am
Post by: Criptfeind on July 07, 2017, 07:05:53 am
Post by: xaritscin on July 18, 2017, 09:51:57 pm
i also experimented with a priest deck, it was originally just to test if i could use Emerald Hive Queen and win around it but i added some other priest cards like Tortollan, Crystalline Oracle and Northshire Cleric. i also added most of the priest buffing cards, some damage spells, two silences (dont have much) and all the copy/mind control spells i had.
it was...fine but right now i stopped playing because of unfavourable matches. too much control decks or people spamming minions, and since i dont have clearing spells well. not much that i could do.
the deck is kinda cool, i've gotten stuff like a 10/10 cleric going face, or getting a Noggenfogger with forbidden morph that basically made the enemy paladin kill his own raid leader with one of those shooting dwarves then buff my mistress of mixtures with king's blessing then kill his own arena champion with noggenfogger just when i was just a few hits from being lethal for him...
oh and also face lethal mindblast with boosted effect, made me feel magey, Velen's Chosen is a nice spell, i should get me a second copy.
Post by: Criptfeind on July 19, 2017, 12:15:27 pm
THE FIRE FESTIVAL IS OVER! IT'S NOW TIME FOR THE FROST FESTIVAL! IT'LL BE WAY COOLER! FREE ARENA RUNS! QUESTS TO GET KNIGHTS OF THE FROZEN THRONE PACKS! AND A BRAWL WHERE YOU GET TO KILL THAT INSECT RAG REPEATEDLY!
Personally I preferred the double gold. But free arena runs and packs are also pretty cool. I hope you guys finished all your quests.
Post by: xaritscin on July 19, 2017, 01:18:19 pm
i've already saved 8 packs worth of gold so not much problem for me. now the KFT packs. i need those.
Post by: Darkmere on July 19, 2017, 01:30:46 pm
Most of the time, paladins will just destroy them, though. I had a kind stranger concede me the win I needed and won't bother playing again.
I will miss the double gold; I think I got around 1200 or a little more during the event - enough to put me at 5080. The arenas are nice I guess but in general I can't stand arena mode or the smug pieces of shit who play it a whole lot so my expectations are pretty low. Still, the value is minimum 475g-ish if you consider the 150g entry to have worth apart from the rewards, so I can't complain too loudly.
Post by: StagnantSoul on July 19, 2017, 01:49:04 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on July 19, 2017, 03:08:46 pm
To me, ptw is charged with a lot of (well earned for the most part) negative connotations. But, basically, yeah, hearthstone is ptw. There's no real way around that. But. It's a ccg. That's sorta how it works.
Post by: EnigmaticHat on July 19, 2017, 04:03:42 pm
I've seen CCGs on websites like Kongregate where they give you all the cards at the start. They're never as long lasting or popular as the games where it takes 10k hours to get all possible cards. Even compared other games on the same website.
Post by: Criptfeind on July 19, 2017, 04:09:04 pm
Hearthstone might not be the most skillful of games, and card games in general have a lot of luck involved, but I think a fair amount of people want these games to have skill and even fights in them.
Post by: Darkmere on July 19, 2017, 08:12:40 pm
If you want to jump in and hit legend *RIGHT NOW* though, yeah you'll have to shell out.
Post by: xaritscin on July 19, 2017, 08:32:54 pm
anyways. my total gold savings have reached 900 and with the quest i have basically 10 packs worth of KFT.
the only way i can think the game would be p2w is people having decks choke full on legendaries. but each legendary can be crafted (not really sure about cards obtained in adventures because i've only crafted and opened packs).
but even then, having only legendaries doesnt mean insta win. buying a lot of packs only ensures you have gotten a lead each expansion while the rest have to get the gold for new packs, but that edge goes out after a time.
i dont think that people who fills their decks with legendaries get to the higher parts of the ladder. i've gotten as far as rank 18 with the more or less organic decks i've done.
if the game was trully p2w i shouldnt even be able to win in casual because of the amount of people having legendary decks. which is something that only happens in a few cases.
Post by: StagnantSoul on July 19, 2017, 09:22:57 pm
Now I am referencing my PTW against Yugioh and MTG, both of which I put maybe 10-20 dollars on a year and I'm still able to win tournaments at my two local game shops often. Compare that to my experience in Hearthstone, working my ass off to make good Paly and Warlock decks and being beaten by the same paid cards again and again... Not sure if the game's still like that, I never actually got to use C'thun or anything, quit just about a week after that came out.
Post by: Darkmere on July 19, 2017, 09:26:42 pm
Post by: StagnantSoul on July 19, 2017, 09:34:20 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on July 19, 2017, 09:42:21 pm
well turns out it was just a free arena ticket. meh, i was expecting free arena play taking in account that its practically impossible to get wins there. i dont get how's there people that plays that only.
The fact that you struggle to get wins when the definitional average is slightly above 3 sorta answers the question of what the people who only play area are doing, heh. :P
On the p2w front, that's exactly what I meant a bit on why I was reticent to call it pay to win.
The game is, technically in my eyes, pay to win. Because when you first start playing the game yes, when fighting against someone else with all else being equal, the person who paid a ton of cash to make a good deck is going to have a better chance at winning. However, it's very easy to make good decks cheaply as well. With even a small amount of play the difference between someone paying and someone not drops down a lot, and soon is fairly meaningless. The person paying has more options, but they aren't better then the person playing for free.
You say you were having issues in a post GVG game to win because of docktor boom and other big legendarys from Naxx? (Hint here, there's exactly one legendary card from naxx that was actually that good, loatheb. Kel'Thuzad saw play in some decks as "the big card" but wasn't even that great for that... I found such choices somewhat questionable in comparison to other "the big cards") and you felt your only way to win was to try to go toe to toe with your own legendary card?
No, the reality is your best choice was probably face hunter in that era. The deck was one of the best in the game, as cheap or cheaper (what are these pay to win rare highmains? Wot wot?) then the one Darkmere just linked too (which is, actually, yes, a good deck, although not as good as face hunter was.) Zoo was also extremely cheap in that era and very good (blackrock mountain made it even better until patron run over the meta.) and mech mage, although sometimes running a single legendary, was otherwise quite cheap and often the target of peoples whining.
So, yes. In my eyes the game is technically pay to win. But it's not at all pay to win in the way that you think of pay to win. And it's something that I see as part and parcel of the genre, not even really a bad thing to be honest (although if someone wanted to say they didn't like ccgs in general because of it, I'd find that fair. But not hearthstone specifically...) And it sounds like, no offense, even if you had all the cards in the game you wouldn't have done much better to be honest... You'd just be in here asking "is the game still over run by aggro shit keeping me from winning if with my 7 mana cost average deck?" (to which the answer would be, yes.)
Post by: wereboar on July 20, 2017, 06:53:35 am
My resources are somewhat limited, like I can't craft all the legends to build all the decks. But I can consistently put up 4-5 tournament quality decks each season.
Post by: frostshotgg on July 20, 2017, 02:24:35 pm
Post by: Neonivek on July 20, 2017, 02:37:43 pm
in other TCGs that people would never call P2W like Magic.
One of the major criticisms of the game at the moment is that Magic the Gathering is implementing mechanics that drive up the prices of cards to force people to buy more packs and pay more for individual cards.
Some of these cards which could cost a LOT of money on their own were rather necessary for some decks or to remain competitive within one year.
Bringing up magic isn't the best example one can use for non-paytowin tactics. Especially in a game where tournaments constantly cycle out old cards and keep you in a perpetual state of needing to buy new ones.
This is ignoring the whole "You can beat someone who spent more money with less money" doesn't excuse it. It only means that one cannot directly translate money into success in the same way that a golden car isn't faster than a normal car.
---
I mean nevermind that Hearthstone's entire business model as a "free to play" game is to encourage you to pay real money and often relies on addiction to make part or even most of its sales.
My personal measure of whether a game isn't Pay to Win even if it allows you to buy an edge or outright power... Is whether the grind is reasonable and if the game presents any sort of speed bumps that outright inhibit people who don't pay.
Which for Hearthstone? I don't know. The common response is that if you want to have real fun you should spend 50 bucks on the game and basically buy a very basic great deck... At which point you shouldn't spend anymore money.
It is just not a good argument to compare it to magic the gathering or comparing deck costs.
Post by: Criptfeind on July 20, 2017, 03:55:59 pm
My personal measure of whether a game isn't Pay to Win even if it allows you to buy an edge or outright power... Is whether the grind is reasonable and if the game presents any sort of speed bumps that outright inhibit people who don't pay.
Funnily enough my own defenition of pay to win is almost the opposite of this. To me, pay to win is simple. Do situations arise where the person who paid money has an advantage and an easier time winning then the person who didn't? IE: Can you actually pay to win?
For hearthstone the answer to that is: Yes. Such situations can happen, especially in the lower ranks when you have someone with no good cards going up against someone with good cards. This is not at all relevant to my hearthstone experience, given I've been playing the game for years. And I think this is simply how ccgs work, and don't really see a way around it. But I am forced to conclude that hs is technically ptw, under my definition at least.
The corollary to this, a game can be grindy as shit and basically impossible to actually progress in without paying money, and I might not call such a game pay to win. Pay to progress. Pay to play. And just a shit game in general maybe. But not pay to win in my eyes.
Post by: xaritscin on July 20, 2017, 05:32:12 pm
also, paladin is horrible when you barely play it and need to use 50 cards from that class. i got some victories tho, murloc knight is a wonderfull card when the enemy doesnt focus it, even on this meta of discover/adapt i keep finding cards with inspire working on several decks. it wasnt even a murloc deck, but still.
i also tested beast hunter. i dont have dinomancy, so i use that legendary from TGT that improves your hero power (i barely use it anyways). meat of the deck is having mostly early lvl cards with sinergy. i found strange that webspinners dont appear as craftable cards, i thought they were there, but well, jeweled macaw is a nice replacement in that case (need another, only have 1).
the idea is to start filling the board with cheap cards, if i can i adapt them or summon an adaptable minion, if not, i use the wolf to boost their attack and keep threat. ram master for that unexpected beast summon, tundra rhino and hyenas for charge and boosting, i dont have savannah high mane so my focus is to get the lead before turn 6-7 when things get ugly.
special mention to firebat, carrion grub, ravasaur hatchling and alley cat. also, lost plainstrider and stranglethorn tiger for mana 4/5 holes.
oh and Mukla's Champion. this gorilla has been really usefull in many of my decks.
i hope to get some more class lvl beasts but i need more powder.
Post by: wereboar on July 21, 2017, 04:19:34 am
To me, pay to win is simple. Do situations arise where the person who paid money has an advantage and an easier time winning then the person who didn't? IE: Can you actually pay to win?I think that definition is a bit too broad. Paying in HS makes you progress a bit faster, i.e. buy more packs earlier thus catching up card collection-wise with established players sooner if you're just starting out. It doesn't suddenly make you win games though.
For hearthstone the answer to that is: Yes.
As stated previously, I've been playing for a while and I've got enough resources to put out several good decks each season. I don't believe I could improve my performance if I bought 50 more packs or something.
Post by: Criptfeind on July 21, 2017, 06:47:09 am
It doesn't suddenly make you win games though.
When you're first starting out in hearthstone, the ability to netdeck a top tier deck and play that vs playing with the basic cards is absolutely enough to make a difference in your win percentage. Obviously there's no hard and fast rules here, skill matters a lot as well, but all else being equal...
Once again, when I say pay to win in hearthstone, the easiest example of this is to me someone first starting out. Yes. It's not relevant to you or me given we've been playing for a while. But just because this experience isn't relevant to us, and it's something that'll fade away from someone as they play the game, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Faster progression is a thing that I wouldn't necessarily say makes a game pay to win, but in hearthstone you play against the same challenges (other people) no matter your level of progression. So, your level of progression absolutely does matter to your win rate, especially when first starting out.
As an aside, do you think my definition is too broad because it doesn't make sense, pay to win means you can pay to increase your win rate, or because it makes a game that doesn't feel like it's pay to win in a bad way into a game that's pay to win and that has negative connotations? Because honestly, I'd get that second one however, I think it's easier to just say
Pay to win in a ccg isn't a universally bad thing despite the negative connotations it has as a whole.
Then it is to try to weasel around it. (the first one almost feels tautologically true to me... You can almost boil it down to a pay to win game is a game where you pay to win.)
As a double aside, Frost Lich Jaina got "leaked". I say "leaked" because it might not be real, and if it is real it might not be an actual leak but rather a marketing stunt, and either way the hero power didn't get leaked so we still don't know that much about the card except that it's clearly pushing elemental synergy in mage. That could be interesting. Also it would mean blizzard is actually supporting previous expansion mechanics (which when I actually write that out makes me less likely to think it's actually real.)
Edit: For those that don't want go googling for it: 9 mana, summon a water elemental, from now on all your elementals have lifesteal, normal 5 armor, no idea what the hero power is.
Post by: wereboar on July 21, 2017, 07:36:17 am
As an aside, do you think my definition is too broad because it doesn't make sense, pay to win means you can pay to increase your win rate, or because it makes a game that doesn't feel like it's pay to win in a bad way into a game that's pay to win and that has negative connotations?I just feel like there's some sort of a contradiction here. You said that you wouldn't consider a game p2w even if it was nigh impossible to progress in without paying money. And in HS progress without paying is not even difficult. It just takes time. Speeding it up is classic pay to progress and it is only really relevant at all when you first start playing.
So maybe you can claim that it is p2w when you're a complete noob and you want to move some ranks asap. But when you're past that initial stage, even this arguable p2w element is not there any more.
Post by: Neonivek on July 21, 2017, 12:18:29 pm
As in... The game is set up so that even if you spend hundreds or thousands of dollars, you can still suck... So keep spending money!
Post by: Darkmere on July 21, 2017, 12:35:33 pm
As a double aside, Frost Lich Jaina got "leaked". I say "leaked" because it might not be real, and if it is real it might not be an actual leak but rather a marketing stunt, and either way the hero power didn't get leaked so we still don't know that much about the card except that it's clearly pushing elemental synergy in mage. That could be interesting. Also it would mean blizzard is actually supporting previous expansion mechanics (which when I actually write that out makes me less likely to think it's actually real.)
Tribe support has happened constantly, though. Mechs, dragons, pirates, murlocs have all gotten piecemeal support over multiple sets, as well as deathrattle, "stealth rogue" (lol) and other stuff. I basically assumed they'd do stuff to push the utter flops, like they did for silence priest before, just because they have a weird boner for discardlock and the perpetual inability to make control hunter a thing.
It kinda looks to me like they're pushing value and later-game decks to counterweight the pirate warrior fiesta, with cards like volcano and glyph and shadow visions/Lyra. I don't mind it, as long as Jade is still there to prevent idiotic fatigue decks.
Post by: Neonivek on July 21, 2017, 12:54:22 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on July 21, 2017, 01:05:17 pm
Oh, wait, you mean secrets? Sure. Secret mage is the aggro version of mage and is a totally viable deck. Hunter secrets aren't really too much of a thing right now, too busy playing the beast synergy thing. Paladin secrets are a thing in wild, and in standard the hydrologist, a paladin card that gives you a secret, is played in every paladin deck.
Tribe support has happened constantly, though. Mechs, dragons, pirates, murlocs have all gotten piecemeal support over multiple sets, as well as deathrattle, "stealth rogue" (lol) and other stuff. I basically assumed they'd do stuff to push the utter flops, like they did for silence priest before, just because they have a weird boner for discardlock and the perpetual inability to make control hunter a thing.
Heh, the backwards support was sorta a joke... Although sorta true as well, there's scattered support for tribes, but nothing that lets them stick around past when their main set rotates out. A few mechs with no synergy doesn't make a mech deck. A few dragon cards isn't enough to make a dragon deck with no blackrock, etc. Too be fair though, they do add support to failed concepts, sometimes. Not to grimy goons. Heh. But other failed concepts.
On the continuing ptw discussion. I don't see the contradiction. Pay to play isn't pay to progress isn't pay to win. And yeah. Even if it's just ptw at the start (which I think it's arguable if it's ONLY that, but that's neither here nor there) thats. Still. Ptw? Yes? It'z in zee geam.
Post by: xaritscin on July 21, 2017, 06:27:11 pm
funny how you can ascend quickly with a more or less barebones deck while i was struggling to ascend with my C'thun Mage deck that actually costed me a lot of powder to make.
anyways, got lucky with the quest today and made enough for a pack, decided to buy some more gadgetzan just in case, allthought most of it became powder. figures.
think im gonna stick with hunter for the time being until the expansion comes.
Post by: Criptfeind on July 21, 2017, 08:40:49 pm
Also I think the way ranks work is that full stars on one rank is the same rank as zero stars on the next rank. So a rank 19 person can actually be the exact same rank internally as a rank 18 person.
Post by: Darkmere on July 21, 2017, 09:15:19 pm
Post by: xaritscin on July 22, 2017, 05:23:25 pm
but ok.
today i reach rank 15 with the hunter deck. i knew that face hunter was a no brainer but playing only beasts has been quite the challenge sometimes. i got a really even match against a mage that i was only able to win because i got enough mana to pull lethal from hounds + gorilla combo. (that bitch was spamming kazakus like crazy and had the field full on minions, i wouldnt have survived another turn).
most of the hard matches has been pirate warriors/rogues, secret mages and priests doing control/aggro.
but i've been able to pull some interesting combos, like 6/4 hyena in turn 2 (unfortunate jade druid invoked 2/2 raven at the start, gets killed by kittens, has no way to stop the leucrota until turn 4-5 with a keeper of the grove, that's some bad luck).
i was thinking on crafting another jeweled macaw but i should think more on adding late game beasts, i dont even have the classic ones. maybe craft dinomancy, if possible, but i think its better to use the normal hero power, if your beasts get cleared you're powerless. hitting 3 damage from improved shot seems much more viable and helps to mitigate armor/healing.
Post by: Darkmere on July 22, 2017, 07:50:40 pm
Don't get me wrong, I've been saving a Huhuran for a year in case control hunter ever works, but I wouldn't bank on that happening without something drastic changed for the entire class.
I will say secret mages are surprisingly strong and flexible. I was only short one Crystal Runner and a Glyph, so I crafted them and gave it a shot. You can do some really nasty things with a good draw and good deck read.
Post by: xaritscin on July 22, 2017, 08:32:54 pm
Post by: Darkmere on August 02, 2017, 03:34:36 am
---
* You can no longer get duplicate legendaries. This counts from any source, including arena rewards and the welcome bundle.
* You can no longer get more copies of a card in a single pack than you can run in a deck (no opening 4 of the same common card).
* Wild content is for sale again, but through the website store only. This includes the old adventures as well as packs for GvG and TGT. Not sure I'd buy the packs, even with what I'm about to mention, but Naxx is a good deal.
* The first ten packs you open of a set are guaranteed to give you a legendary. This includes the wild packs if you haven't opened any before.
---
NOTE: There was an issue with the mechanics change that caused some people who opened packs recently to reset their pity timers. If you've opened packs in the last two weeks, check your email to see if you were affected.
ALSO NOTE: The above changes seem to have gone into effect for every set, regardless of whether you've opened a pack before EXCEPT THE CLASSIC SET.
---
I've tested this with Un'goro and Old Gods, pulling Unite the Murlocs at 3 JUG packs, and Emperor Vek'Lor at 7 WOG packs. I have no idea if this is also related... but in 9 packs I got 2 legendaries, 2 golden epics, 2 regular epics, and a good-sized pile of golden cards. It seemed like the timers for goldens were also pushed way up... but that's a sample size of 1.
---
Reddit has done a little preliminary science, the early data is this:
* Average packs to get the legendary is 5. Buy them one at a time and stop when you get the legend.
* Golden legendaries are on a separate timer, and if you get a golden legendary YOU WILL STILL GET A REGULAR ONE in the first 10 packs...
* This doesn't seem to work if you've opened a pack from the set in the past 2 weeks. Apparently the fix was added in two stages, with timer reset and no-dupe being added at different times.
Post by: Criptfeind on August 02, 2017, 06:54:53 am
Feelz bad man.
Not sure if I wanta purchase like old gods packs or something to see if this epic and golden train is actually rolling, or just wait for the expansion.
Post by: Darkmere on August 02, 2017, 01:15:55 pm
I think all said I opened 20 packs, ish?
Unite the Murlocs, Beardo, Vek'lor, Harrison Jones.
My first Ice Block, my second Vilefin Inquisitor
Golden Brawl and Bloodbloom (third of each, 800 dust)
Emerald hive queen, weasel (awful, 200 dust likely)
and a smattering of golden commons/rares, enough for 800 dust.
5 legendaries from 20 packs is preeeeetty good, now to decide if I should wait and see if they hall of fame Brawl or not. Seems extremely unlikely.
And I still have 5000 gold left for KFC, plus the pre-order. Should be the last pre-order I ever make, if my math is right.
Post by: Criptfeind on August 03, 2017, 06:29:18 am
Skulking Geist: 4 mana 4/6 destroy all 1 cost spells in both hands and decks.
Sorta the way for control to fight against jade. If this oppresses jade enough we might see a pretty big metashift. There's still taunt warrior, itself oppressed by jade, that can create those infinite 8 damage shots, so I'm not sure how greedy a deck can get in the face of that, so maybe there won't be such a shift. But we'll have to see.
Post by: Darkmere on August 03, 2017, 12:28:05 pm
All that said, it's an incredibly shitty card versus aggro which will always be what most people play and is a 1-of at best so you'll have problems drawing it. I doubt it's terribly effective for anything but moronic fatigue decks and a single highlights video where someone one-shots an Explore Un'Goro warrior with it.
This set seems like a highly polarized mix of very interesting but hyper-greedy niche cards and ridiculous garbage (Princes...) so far.
Post by: Leafsnail on August 03, 2017, 01:18:39 pm
It's not like the decks it hits are dead though, it's only really a viable card in heavy control decks like Priest and Warrior. If you put it in an aggro or midrange deck it won't help you much at all.
Post by: Darkmere on August 03, 2017, 03:12:33 pm
What jade was unwinnable against was fatigue, who didn't actually have a win condition, just from 28 removals, justicar, some deck filler value and a shit ton of time to waste hero power/passing.
I think between brawls, shield slams, some taunts, and mosh control warriors could have gone for anti-jade combo finishers instead (and I saw several deck lists that did just that, posted from pro streams) but that's not the narrative people want to push, so we mowed the lawn with a flamethrower instead and fuck anyone who happened to be standing nearby.
It just feels like a "fine, will you shut up yet?" card that kicks recent decks to the curb so people will want to buy newer cards. But that's what people were clamoring for in MSG, so here we are (with people bitching about how expensive all the new cards are).
I mainly don't want this to be a permanent trend of killing decks every few months in a brute force attempt to "keep things fresh" with magic bullet cards. But we see how well hate crabs did with that and they're a lot cheaper/less shitty for your own deck than Undead Jade Crab, so it may have no impact whatsoever - which is what I hope actually happens, because otherwise it pushes aggro even harder yet again so pirates will dominate - yet again.
Post by: Criptfeind on August 03, 2017, 03:34:28 pm
And yes, slower control could beat jade by playing as fast as they could and hoping to beat them before the jade train crushes them. Just like freeze mage can beat control warrior by trying to get in as much chip damage against their armor and assemble their burn as fast as possible before they armor up out of range. It's still a fundamentally terrible match up.
And really, what your describing there, a deck that has a few big late game threats, but is mostly about controlling the board with cards that control the game. That's a control deck. True grinder decks without win cons have been really rare, it's just that obviously when two decks that are better at staying alive then killing face each other, they run out of ways to kill each other and fatigue has to come in. It's a control vs control issue that doesn't really effect anyone else. Not to mention with so many new ultra greed cards coming out in this expansion I find it pretty unlikely that we'd find ourselves in such situations. There's going to be a king of the late game. Previously it was jade, which crowned itself around turn 6-8. Maybe now it'll be taunt warrior, or some other deck. The hope is that it goes at least a bit later in the game, so that there's more room for decks in between.
Edit: As for the last bit, I almost thought about ignoring it, but I have to ask. What part of the control killer, a deck that's only real weakness is to aggro, jade druid, getting a counter card to it, makes you think that aggro will be pushed harder? Like, the dominance of aggro in the meta game can be directly seen in how many jade druids are playing. The more jade druid was played, the more aggro was played in response to it, which would then push jades numbers down and other decks would rise up as it left. There's been a direct correlation there.
Post by: Darkmere on August 03, 2017, 04:53:11 pm
The group I've seen with the biggest beef against Jades are fatigue decks, like the old Justicar warrior who just cleared the board and tanked up every turn until they other guy decked and fatigue took over. This edges out freeze mage as my personal most hated deck of the game, BARELY.
So what I get from the massive jade idol hatejerk is that people who wanted it gone were the ones who wanted nothing but 30-minute games where they armored up, played removal, and passed. The counter-argument that I ran into on places like /r/competitiveHS was... if Jade druids bugger your control deck that badly then add a little speed to the control deck if you're facing so many.
This was usually followed by "nuh uh fatigue should always be a valid win condition". It crops up every time the argument comes up, with the idea of teching a deck to match the meta getting shouted down every time.
The "pushing aggro" thing is an extrapolated guess. So far the hero cards and lifesteal mechanics seem to be pushing greedy late-game decks - the kind that would run Crabgeist. Those are also unreliable for... most? classes. Shaman has enough board clear to just grind most things into dust until they draw a bloodlust so they might not care. The rest looks like nonfunctional junk (evolve shaman) or too late/slow to matter (mage, hunter, depending on the rest of their cards).
But those are the new toys, so people are going to try those ultra-greedfests that aggro eats for breakfast, tossing in the Crabgeist out of spite and banking on it to finally topple the jade druid whatever... and then since the best counter to greed is pirate warrior you're going to get a lot of really fast decks killing off the hero cards with people pissy about it, just like the quests in JUG were mostly unplayable.
ALLLL of that aside... I'd rather they just nerfed Idol if they wanted it gone so bad. I remember when it came out Mike Donais said "I printed this card because people told me I couldn't", so I get the impression he just forced a card through because he could, and now he's forcing a card through to kill it because he can. If that makes sense?
Post by: Arx on August 03, 2017, 05:02:53 pm
Also, I feel like people playing aggro to beat control, some kind of midrange to beat aggro, and control to beat midrange is a reasonably healthy meta with scope for a lot of variety. Compared to some of the all aggro metas...
Post by: Leafsnail on August 03, 2017, 06:26:14 pm
Even with Jade Druid beatable there's still the question of whether there's any point in playing fatigue without Justicar, and if you'll just lose to decks with more decisive win conditions. To be fair though, all three Old Gods have gotten significantly weaker than they were last year (Yogg was directly nerfed, N'Zoth lost Sylvanas and C'Thun lost Brann).
Post by: Neonivek on August 03, 2017, 06:33:31 pm
And my rule of thumb is that it doesn't matter if a deck is strong or weak... Not fun is not fun.
Post by: Leafsnail on August 03, 2017, 06:36:35 pm
e: best use for the new card is actually in the 30 Raven Idols brawl
Post by: Criptfeind on August 03, 2017, 08:10:38 pm
This is all my experience, of course. Take it for what you will.
The group I've seen with the biggest beef against Jades are fatigue decks, like the old Justicar warrior who just cleared the board and tanked up every turn until they other guy decked and fatigue took over. This edges out freeze mage as my personal most hated deck of the game, BARELY.
So what I get from the massive jade idol hatejerk is that people who wanted it gone were the ones who wanted nothing but 30-minute games where they armored up, played removal, and passed. The counter-argument that I ran into on places like /r/competitiveHS was... if Jade druids bugger your control deck that badly then add a little speed to the control deck if you're facing so many.
This was usually followed by "nuh uh fatigue should always be a valid win condition". It crops up every time the argument comes up, with the idea of teching a deck to match the meta getting shouted down every time.
I think my issue here is that jade doesn't just kill super grindy fatigue is the only win con decks, it kills any deck that plans to control the game, accrue value and win in the later part of the game. 30 turn decks or 15 turn decks were both totally wiped out. And the issue with the idea of speeding up is that if you speed up enough to have a good chance against jade, you're not playing a control deck. You're playing a midrange or aggro deck. You're not telling people to tweek their deck to the meta, you're telling them to play an entirely different and diametrically opposed archetype. Getting fatigued out when you're not in a control vs control match up probably shouldn't be a thing, that's fair. But jade just completely obliterated late game decks that didn't even have that as their game plan. Personally I think some of the new ideas coming out with like death knights is the way to go. You're not going to fatigue out someone throwing down infinite zombeasts. But the zombeasts are slow enough that they don't completely invalidate late game decks trying to control until they build their own win con. (Not that I think deathstalker will be played, but as an example of anti fatigue mechanics that actually seem good, instead of oppressive like jade.)
The "pushing aggro" thing is an extrapolated guess. So far the hero cards and lifesteal mechanics seem to be pushing greedy late-game decks - the kind that would run Crabgeist. Those are also unreliable for... most? classes. Shaman has enough board clear to just grind most things into dust until they draw a bloodlust so they might not care. The rest looks like nonfunctional junk (evolve shaman) or too late/slow to matter (mage, hunter, depending on the rest of their cards).
But those are the new toys, so people are going to try those ultra-greedfests that aggro eats for breakfast, tossing in the Crabgeist out of spite and banking on it to finally topple the jade druid whatever... and then since the best counter to greed is pirate warrior you're going to get a lot of really fast decks killing off the hero cards with people pissy about it, just like the quests in JUG were mostly unplayable.
I still don't follow the logic here at all. Yes, when the new set comes out aggro will obliterate greedy experimental decks, just like the start of every new expansion ever. And yes, you can make ultra greedy decks that die to aggro and people will make those decks at first and aggro will flourish. Just like at the start of every new expansion ever.
I don't see how this pushes aggro in anything but the normal boost it gets after an expansion. The super greedy decks that are too greedy will get weeded out as per normal and we'll be left with decks with an appropriate amount of greed. Against some of them aggro will be good. Against some of them aggro will be bad. The meta will stabilize with whatever the appropriate mix of aggro is depending on the good decks.
You know what really increases the appropriate mix of aggro in a meta? A deck that's bad against aggro but oppressive to almost everything else. That's the type of deck that actually long term increases the amount of aggro in the meta. Like there are decks that can currently exist that are good against aggro but don't see play because they loose too hard to jade druid. Old fashion control warrior being a good example of that. (And sorta taunt warrior as well.)
Post by: Darkmere on August 03, 2017, 09:43:19 pm
Is everyone else ONLY referring to stuff like grinder shaman when they say control?
I'm... not sure I'm explaining myself well enough with the aggro push but it's just a spoiler season guess so there's nothing really behind it.
Post by: Criptfeind on August 03, 2017, 10:02:29 pm
There's certainly some level of linguistical disconnect because I don't know what you mean by grinder shaman. Unless you're talking about the meme deck that tries to lay tons of Ancestral Spirit on a white eyes to create a hilarious amount of storm guardians for the late game... That's the closest thing I can think of too a "grinder" shaman deck and it's certainly a control deck but it's not at all a fatigue deck. I can google grinder shaman but it's not coming up with any fatigue orientated results. Currently to my knowledge the most commonly played and powerful shaman decks are mostly either token or like mid jade elemental.
Grinder mage was a fatigue deck that I can recall existing. Although not for a while.
Second edit: If we're trying to pinpoint semantics. What would you call a warrior deck with a bunch of stuff to stay alive and clear their opponent off the board, along with grom hellscream, some activators, and alexstraza? You know, this is what I'd call a very classic control warrior deck. If they cut out Alex and Grom to make room for even more control, and left nothing to actively try to kill their opponents, then I'd call it a fatigue deck. Would you agree/disagree with these definitions?
Post by: Darkmere on August 04, 2017, 11:15:48 am
Crusher shaman was what I was thinking of, but yeah that's the gist. The old version used earth elementals and the big bog lord taunts with faceless manipulators and ancestral spirit to build a huge wall of taunts. There wasn't really a combination to win, you just kept the board clear until they ran out of answers.
I agree with your warrior with grom/alex. The example I saw referenced yesterday was two dead man's hands, a lot of removals, and some draw, where the deck's goal was to assemble draw and both dead man's, then reshuffle it back into the deck over and over.
I think you're looking at fatigue as a side effect of heavy control decks trying to outlast each other, and that dude is looking at fatigue as the primary win condition when you just reshuffle removals until the other guy has nothing left.
I'm sorry, I know there was more but I don't remember it.
Post by: wereboar on August 04, 2017, 11:32:04 am
Post by: xaritscin on August 04, 2017, 06:52:01 pm
no, i dont have the dust to craft those crabs. at most i've onle been able to craft an eater of secrets and most of the time it doesnt even serves its purpose.
hunter needs a buff, but it seems this expansion wont be the one to bring it. ugh, at least there's the bearshark, i think.
Post by: Criptfeind on August 04, 2017, 10:47:25 pm
hunter needs a buff, but it seems this expansion wont be the one to bring it. ugh, at least there's the bearshark, i think.
Yeah. It's tough. Mike Donais was on a steam today where he dropped a bit of a bomb, saying that at the lower ranks hunter has the highest win rate of any class. So, even though that's basically just because there's actually this very large silent majority of people who are absolutely awful at the game in the very low ranks, they are a bit hesitant to just buff hunter otherwise it'd just totally over run the awful players. He basically said outright to not expect hunter or warlock to be good in the next expansion, saying that increasing their power carefully will take more then a single expansion to achieve.
Post by: Neonivek on August 04, 2017, 11:43:29 pm
Did they literally create a noob lock? (a term I am making up now... Where the meta is locked in place because improving someone would hurt the noobies)
Post by: Arx on August 05, 2017, 12:22:22 am
hunter needs a buff, but it seems this expansion wont be the one to bring it. ugh, at least there's the bearshark, i think.
Yeah. It's tough. Mike Donais was on a steam today where he dropped a bit of a bomb, saying that at the lower ranks hunter has the highest win rate of any class. So, even though that's basically just because there's actually this very large silent majority of people who are absolutely awful at the game in the very low ranks, they are a bit hesitant to just buff hunter otherwise it'd just totally over run the awful players. He basically said outright to not expect hunter or warlock to be good in the next expansion, saying that increasing their power carefully will take more then a single expansion to achieve.
I'm not surprised. I tend to play a homebrew midrange Hunter when I want to just mess around and I can make it to rank 15 without even really trying, which is hardly high-ranked but I do feel bad for the part of the playerbase below that.
Post by: Criptfeind on August 10, 2017, 08:21:35 pm
Sadly you can't brew back your horsemen of the apocalypse and have it work out, you need one of each type, and they come out in order based on what ones you have on board. So you can't save them in hand for a whombo combo. Too bad, that was the meme deck I was looking forward too. I guess Exodia paladin will have to stick to wild for now.
Post by: Darkmere on August 10, 2017, 11:21:27 pm
What little I can tell they all seem really powerful, but they should be for the cost. I don't have much in the way of other legendaries to support the deck, but I did want Ebon Uther and maybe Garrosh at some point, we'll see.
The prologue mission was hilarious, I've seen everyone one of those raiders before (I'm the warlock, FEEL THE POWER), and the mission content actually exceeded my expectations a bit.
Post by: wereboar on August 11, 2017, 04:07:11 am
Post by: Criptfeind on August 11, 2017, 06:51:23 am
Post by: xaritscin on August 11, 2017, 02:16:12 pm
today i tried the first hall of ICC and well. it took the whole morning to complete. got Ebonblade Uther from the prologue (wtf, i was fearing of killing Tyrion).
anyways. Lord Marrowgar and Lady Deathwhisper were really hard to kill because of their mechanics. Saurfang was actually pretty moderate in difficulty.
a shame that i didnt get another hero card. just commons/rares from the reward pack.
these guys are surely wanting to add discard into the mix. oh and i found the new giant of this expansion, sadly, its a shaman only (12 mana 8/8, costs 1 less per each mana crystal you overcharged the whole match,) this sounds a bit ominous to go against.
i tried to use the new hunter cards. Bearshark is actually pretty nice, at least, as replacement for the carrion grubs i was using. that guy with hound master and the raptor can become quite the menace.
i havent been able to use play dead. never got it on hand so far.
i havent found a niche for the 5 mana 4/6 tho. i mean, deathrattle minions that cost 2 less sounds good but you have to wait for turn 5 or 4 at most (and this only if you have the coin). by the time its avaliable i've already lost half if not all my deathrattle minions. and even if you summon them you have to wait for the next turn to use them, compared to the Rhino that has the same cost and allows for higher play potential.
maybe i should get more deathrattle minions. but it seems its better to stick to double rhinos.
EDIT:
tried a taunt Paladin deck in order to see if i could finish summoning the horsemen, only won 1 match against a mage that was playing C'thun (wot?), the other matches were priests, there was an specialy cancerous one that rolled C'thun, Quest, DK and Benedictus (honestly, jade druid is more palatable than this bullshit. Priest has way too much beneficial cards its not even worth playing against anymore, always a fucking Kazakus/Lyra on deck and up from that the whole cheap deathrattle quest that you cannot delay or cancel, fuck these guys)
Post by: Darkmere on August 11, 2017, 08:21:17 pm
I've got an assload of dust but I wanted to wait until the meta settled before I crafted anything, which puts me far, FAR behind everyone else's greedy control decks right now.
... As my eye twitches with indignant rage... I'm really just bad at the game right now. I have everything for the Defile control deathknight warlock except the lich king card, and I have no idea how long to sit there spamming clears and lifetap before I hero up.
Post by: Criptfeind on August 11, 2017, 08:33:18 pm
Post by: xaritscin on August 11, 2017, 08:38:49 pm
Post by: Darkmere on August 11, 2017, 10:06:24 pm
Jade rogue with Valeera the Hollow and N'zoth can lead to ridiculous stuff, too, but it's REALLY hard to judge when you play or keep some things. Against mages I felt like I had to play 3 win conditions to flush their resources and sometimes that's still not enough thanks to 3 blizzards or 4 flamestrikes or whatever the hell glyph and cabalist's tome give them.
Highlander priest with Raza seems amazing... but I don't have raza or kazakus, and without Raza it's just slow and clunky. I did intend to craft them eventually, though. Maybe the time is soon.
Unrelated, but I'm fairly pleased that some of the common cards that were mostly glossed over in pre-release are finding play. Vryghoul is pretty interesting in N'zoth decks, and the tainted zealout/defile trick is really satisfying if it's not used against you.
Post by: xaritscin on August 12, 2017, 04:28:26 pm
have a mix of sinergies with murlocs, hand deck and divine shield with some extra cards for boosting minions into a playable state. i even added the +2 spell damage nerubian from this expansion to see if i could pull a combo with the paladin's AoE spell but i havent been able to use it.
best match was against a mill warlock. i've never seen that thing before, it tried to play around lorewalker cho in order to fill my hand with cheap spells and coins with the 4/6 trogg, using vampire gnome to make me discard some stuff and even giving fel reavers to me just so i would burn my 3 top cards.
it was a really complicated match but in the end i made him burn his own cards somehow and he ended killing himself. probably got lucky because the warlock lost a twisting nether when i used Cho against him.
anyways, it was a fun albeit annoying match.
Post by: xaritscin on August 16, 2017, 06:54:55 pm
1. a jade shaman with overload emphasis. trying to survive early to mid with some jade golems while bringing some control and presence via totem golems and the few elementals from Un'goro i have and a few Jade Lotus neutral cards from Gadgetzan. mid to late i should be either dying or killing the enemy by sheer minions using overcharged elementals or the new giant. i have 1 or 2 4 mana 7/7 but since it was mostly elementals well, didnt want to mess around with that. gonna check the deck anyways to see if i can add it. but honestly, im more interested on keeping spells rather than sheer minions.
2. i tried to remake my spell damage mage deck with some of the recent cards. i keep the essential mage spells like mirror reflection, polymorph, fireball, etc... with a few others like flaming geyser for extra control early, fireblast to burst just in case(dont really use it tbh, may change it), mana wyrms, the secret that clones an enemy spell with 0 cost (my change it), the one that gives 2 copies of a minion on your hand and of course, frost armor. the rest is a assortment of neutral cards with +1 spell damage with more or less usefull stats (4 damage to not get used by priest, average to good health) and some common stuff like healbot and azure drake because of utility. the idea again with this deck is to try and get the most damage possible to the enemy until you get on letal.
spell damage minions tend to have a few good stat in some cases. i wish i had Malygos but im not saving 1600 dust just to craft it. also, +2 damage seems good on paper but some of the cards that have it are easy to take out (they usually suffer of low health).
i also have Dalaran Aspirant but the inspire mechanic makes him a bit slow compared to other cards with the same stats. yeah you get infinite +1 damage increase but the first turn he's played he doesnt do anything unless its turn 6. and also, 3 health means it dies to the cheapest spells.
my only complain with the deck is not being able to pull the numbers on the enemy. its either pirate warrior or priest on the ladder. i got only one or two good matches against shaman or druid and it was like a fine play of chess. but its not fun to get vulnerable from turn 1 and getting it worst, or spending stuff trying to keep the remove the priest from board because the asshole is choke full on buffing minions.
Post by: Darkmere on August 16, 2017, 08:16:07 pm
The guy brawled me 6 times, 3 of those he had a 20% or less chance of winning and won anyway. Oh, and there were another 6 or 7 Sleep with the fishes. Firemountain armor and draws.
At the end of the match I was 3 turns into fatigue and he had 34 cards - but I won anyway. It just felt like such a waste of time, not one thing in his deck actually did anything for him except wipe my board over and over and over and waste time, and that didn't even work. Hope he meets nothing but quest mages and jade druids for the next week.
Post by: xaritscin on August 17, 2017, 12:28:49 pm
tested the additions to hunter, fake death makes for some really awesome combos, i should get another bearshark tho. maybe later. i had to take out the hyenos (honestly at this point its too hard to pull them right, same for the rhino, i replaced one with healbot).
meanwhile mage well, mage doesnt get to rank 19. no matter how much control i apply on the field the enemy always finds a way around by just spamming bullshit legendaries. not fair when you can only have so few spells and the enemy starts spamming shit like Kel'thuzad and the like without a way to burn them down.
there should be a limit of 1 legendary per deck or something. loosing to a well placed legendary is one think. but loosing because the other just got a deck choke full on them is unbalanced.
EDIT:
the second hall of ICC is now avaliable
Post by: Neonivek on August 17, 2017, 12:31:35 pm
Quote
loosing because the other just got a deck choke full on them is unbalanced.
That is sort of the point.
Then again having commons be weak (or only existing as tent posts) has been a common criticism... As has pathetic rares.
Post by: xaritscin on August 17, 2017, 12:58:40 pm
but Sindragosa is horribly hard. i dont get which strat to go
EDIT:
ok i won with C'thun druid. you cant burst her in a few turns, i tried. her spells are too annoying on top of the minions so its best to go full taunt or so and keep her occupied clearing the board.
then you just tank until she dies from fatigue. its the only way to win. with such a cramped board space.
Post by: Darkmere on August 17, 2017, 04:31:53 pm
Post by: xaritscin on August 18, 2017, 09:20:58 am
tried with the spell damage deck. couldnt do anything
tried murlocs, nothing
meanwhile i get shit like mech druid, mech rogue and even then they win with way less effort. its almost like i need to have a fucking secret/freeze deck to win at this shit. that shouldnt be
the case.
guess its zoo mage all over again.
EDIT:
meh, mage is a fucked class. not worth messing around with spells unless you play a brainless meta deck.
Post by: wereboar on August 18, 2017, 04:33:21 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on August 18, 2017, 08:21:17 pm
Mage is pretty strong overall - in standard you have Arcanologist, Mana Wyrm and Primordial Glyph, while in Wild you get access to some crazy stuff like Mad Scientist and Flamewaker.
Post by: xaritscin on August 19, 2017, 11:47:15 am
my mage deck was based around building spell damage. i dont have primordial glyph and arcanologist is for secret decks. i dont play secrets heavily, i just build spell damage and then burst down the enemy.
mage is only strong if you do secrets/quest. which is a shame.
i just keep the most basic spells (polymorph, fireball, flamestrike, mirror reflection or cheap AoE) along with some of the new stuff like Flaming Geyser (because free minions for 2 or more damage). mana wyrms are just an starter, the bulk of the deck are +1 spell damage stuff like ogre magi, archmage, that 3/3 mech from GvG, Dalaran Aspirant (allthought he's pretty weak statwise), kobold geomancer, azure drake, etc...
most of those are 4 damage minions so its a good cover up against priest (still a pain to go against) and have more or less good health (Snobolds are good, but vulnerable due to 2 damage).
so the strat is try to do the most damage i can then finish it by top decking fireballs, fireblast is a good alternative for late game but nowadays the other classes have several ways of recovering and turning the table its not fair.
i try to mix some stuff by adding cards that reveal spells (Kabal Courier, that 2/1 minion from Un'goro). but still relying on RNG for getting good spells its not the most preferred strat.
its really annoying because it was my go to deck for most of the time i've been playing this game and now suddenly the only ways to up my winning rate is to experiment with not so meta decks from other classes like Shaman/Druid/Paladin...
Post by: xaritscin on August 19, 2017, 08:28:50 pm
it worked the first 2 matches, but then it was a loosing streak. i try to tank the most with healing minions while building the combo but im getting paired against dinomance hunters and other buff based decks. this game can be so asshole sometimes....
EDIT:
it seems the deck is only effective against people that runs on minions rather than healing. i probably have to dodge priests and maybe warrior. druid is a 50/50 because you cant never know what the hell is the playing after a time.
deck more or less is
arcane missiles x2
frostbolt x2
flaming geyser x2
fireball x2
arcane intelect x2
mirror image x2
glacial shard x2 (there's always something to keep frozen for further survival)
sorcerer aprentice x2 (i barely get use of it but sometimes i ned to reduce costs)
kobold geomancer x2 (the only way to pull all those damage spells reliably for lethal, one is usually just enough but one may never know)
azure drake (because spell damage, good stats and draw cards)
healbot (mandatory)
acolyte of pain x2 (need all the draw i can get early so i can pull the damage, otherwise i sit waiting to get killed by board pressure and late game minions)
kabal courier x2 (i smacked out pyroblast for a copy of this, revealing something to heal or get more damage/control is welcomed)
kabal apothecary x2 (drink the power, specially if its dragon potion, i need those heavily)
cult apothercary x2 (again, i need to survive until i get the cards i need, if the oponent fulls the board with cheap stuff the better, problem is when it puts 2 overbuffed douchebags on field)
reckless rocketeer x2 (its 10 damage to face, if not, its a good source of removal for certain taunt cards, i dont expect to need it, but aggro decks are everywhere, and some key cards are usually high health, if not is all smorc).
and basically that's all.
i could also repalce the apprentices with shimmering tempests, you know, the spells are cheap si it should be more usefull to get more rather than have less cost. i think. another alternatives are to replace
the kobolds for the improved one, basically double the cost but it gives the same amount of spell damage bonus. this leaves space for an eater of secrets.
Post by: wereboar on August 19, 2017, 09:54:45 pm
While your own deck only contains two wild cards which are not really deck-defining. Ditch the drake and healbot and start playing standard. You will find it gets much easier.
Post by: xaritscin on August 19, 2017, 10:52:22 pm
You should consider the notion that decks you face in wild mode are potentially much more powerful than standard decks. Because most of them run broken legacy cards and combos.
While your own deck only contains two wild cards which are not really deck-defining. Ditch the drake and healbot and start playing standard. You will find it gets much easier.
i'd rather stay in wild. i was in standard at the start of the year and apart from being locked from some cards, it was equally horrible.
Post by: Leafsnail on August 24, 2017, 06:06:51 pm
- Mana Wyrm is one of the strongest one-drops in the game, don't cut it. It's particularly good with Mirror Image.
- Mad Scientist is too good not to run in Mage (or Arcanologist in standard). It's a 2 mana 2/2 that gives you a 3 mana spell for free. I know you don't want to make a "secret deck" but 2 Mad Scientists and ~3 secrets (probably some mix of mirror entities and counterspell here) make any Mage deck stronger.
- Flamewaker is an amazingly strong card and would fit in well here.
- Kobold Geomancer is a pretty bad card and should be cut. Cult Sorcerer is strictly better so it would be a great replacement.
- Firelands Portal is a great finisher and you get it for free from Kharazan.
- The weaker cards that you can cut are Flame Geyser (low impact, you don't have any elemental synergy for it), Kabal Apothecary (the battlecry is unreliable and the stats aren't great) and Reckless Rocketeer (Mage has a lot of burn anyway, and Firelands Portal is so much better). I also question whether you need all those healing cards in Mage - I think having more ways to answer your opponent's board could be better. If you really want healing you could try fetching Ice Barrier with Mad Scientist.
Post by: Criptfeind on August 24, 2017, 08:51:30 pm
Post by: wereboar on August 25, 2017, 05:38:34 am
Aggro druids are actually more of a nuisance but my main decks (mage, pally and priest) do kill them reliably.
Post by: xaritscin on August 25, 2017, 10:23:23 am
sometimes its aggro, sometimes its big minions and sometimes its jade, in very rare cases its early board combo.
when i play mage against them i usually try to do the most damage to face with minions then burst them down with spells. big issue is when the asshole puts armor or heals on top of having cancer on board.
but usually i win more reliably with my jade/overload shaman.
Post by: Darkmere on August 27, 2017, 04:12:16 am
It looks like a few people are dropping Tirion from the top-end so I could afford to just make Tarim, 2 quartermasters, 3 rares and 2 commons, from what I've been seeing. (I'm short 1 steward of darkshire, 2 musters, and 2 shieldbots.)
Unrelated in any way: I bought Naxx, finally, and was able to make a complete Reno'Zoth hunter deck that's awesome to play. You can never have too many 11/11's, plus I'm finally getting "use" out of my Princess Huhuran. Good times.
Also I gave in and teched eater of secrets in the deck. I hate having dead draws but absolutely ruining a secret paladin tree or slapping down that ice block is the best feeling. The. Best.
Post by: Criptfeind on August 27, 2017, 07:15:39 am
I really liked my paladin dude deck back in gvg. Minibot and muster really were the sorta, salvation of paladin. Or they made paladin op, depending on your point of view :P
Post by: frostshotgg on August 27, 2017, 11:44:20 am
Code: [Select]
AAEBAZ8FBq8H+g6eEMkWucECiMcCDKcF9Q3qD+wP7Q/ZrgL/rwKzwQK4xwLZxwLjywKmzgIALightfused stegodon can feel really underwhelming, it basically exists for the sole purpose of mustard - stego. You may want to drop a steg for tirion or a second keeper. Also divine favor vs solemn vigil is basically a "How am I feeling today" call. You've definitely got options for teching differently.
Post by: Darkmere on August 27, 2017, 12:25:43 pm
I would start with this list:Code: [Select]AAEBAZ8FBq8H+g6eEMkWucECiMcCDKcF9Q3qD+wP7Q/ZrgL/rwKzwQK4xwLZxwLjywKmzgIA
Lightfused stegodon can feel really underwhelming, it basically exists for the sole purpose of mustard - stego. You may want to drop a steg for tirion or a second keeper. Also divine favor vs solemn vigil is basically a "How am I feeling today" call. You've definitely got options for teching differently.
That's almost card for card the list I was looking at crafting. I think I'll use Light Rag in place of Boom, but the rest looks solid. Thanks!
Post by: frostshotgg on August 27, 2017, 03:24:31 pm
Post by: Leafsnail on August 28, 2017, 09:51:13 am
Post by: Darkmere on August 28, 2017, 01:10:39 pm
Point taken on light Rag, I'll mess around with regular Rag or Lich King instead... the whole point is using a budget substitute to put off crafting Tirion a little longer so I can afford this and a highlander shadowreaper priest deck.
The longer I play the more standard format seems like a money pit for delusional "but I'm competitve!" players to ride a treadmill. I think snagging stronger Wild cards is a better game plan long-term, so I'm trying to build up that side of my collection more.
Post by: Strongpoint on August 28, 2017, 01:38:32 pm
I would start with this list:This is a quite aggresive version of dude paladin and I see little reason to go for hydrologists over knife jugglers.Code: [Select]AAEBAZ8FBq8H+g6eEMkWucECiMcCDKcF9Q3qD+wP7Q/ZrgL/rwKzwQK4xwLZxwLjywKmzgIA
Lightfused stegodon can feel really underwhelming, it basically exists for the sole purpose of mustard - stego. You may want to drop a steg for tirion or a second keeper. Also divine favor vs solemn vigil is basically a "How am I feeling today" call. You've definitely got options for teching differently.
Post by: frostshotgg on August 28, 2017, 03:24:10 pm
Shredder is definitely a contender for the card slot, but the deck doesn't really benefit much from the sticky-ness, so it's basically a 3 mana body that spawns a 1 mana body, and the deck would rather take its 3 mana body with 1 bonus mana now. The best case for shredder is a 3 mana body, whereas the blowout for stego is it gives 3 dudes poison or something which is worth much more. Shredder is a good card, but pally 4 mana slot is the single most competitive mana costed card in any curvestone deck.
Post by: Strongpoint on August 28, 2017, 03:42:54 pm
Quote
We learned that lesson when MC came out. It turns out paladin secrets are actually pretty decent when you don't have to worry about drawing them, and being able to select which secret you want for the situation is worth the 1 stat point under curve that knife juggler is. Minibot is a stupid card, and I don't think anyone is contesting that, and then there's just not enough room to fit KJ in.I agree that hydrologist is a good card but... I still think that it is not the deck for it. We have no murloc synergy, we have no stonehill defenders, we have no tirion, there are even anti-synergy with divine favour. It value drops.
Potential tempo gained from Knife Juggler looks way more valuable for what this deck tries to do. Turn 1 Righteous defender, turn 2 knife juggler, turn 3 muster and the board is yours. Turn 3 juggler + lost in jungle or righteous defender is not something weak either.
Post by: xaritscin on August 28, 2017, 04:01:25 pm
it has been a headache just trying to get past the second stage. and even then i barely have dented him. blizzard made him too much broken, cant put cheap stuff, cant put big minions, cant jade, and the guy gets the board full in a few turns. its almost impossible to clear.
EDIT:
nvm, this guy is impossible it seems. think im gonna get the hero cards from packs instead. what a waste of time.
Post by: Leafsnail on August 28, 2017, 06:40:35 pm
Shredder is definitely a contender for the card slot, but the deck doesn't really benefit much from the sticky-ness, so it's basically a 3 mana body that spawns a 1 mana body, and the deck would rather take its 3 mana body with 1 bonus mana now. The best case for shredder is a 3 mana body, whereas the blowout for stego is it gives 3 dudes poison or something which is worth much more. Shredder is a good card, but pally 4 mana slot is the single most competitive mana costed card in any curvestone deck.What? The deck benefits a lot from stickiness, it has 4 different buffs that need a body on the board to do anything useful.
Post by: Strongpoint on August 29, 2017, 01:32:58 am
It has 4 different cards that give you dudes AND heropower that gives you a dude. Stegodon have more synergy.Shredder is definitely a contender for the card slot, but the deck doesn't really benefit much from the sticky-ness, so it's basically a 3 mana body that spawns a 1 mana body, and the deck would rather take its 3 mana body with 1 bonus mana now. The best case for shredder is a 3 mana body, whereas the blowout for stego is it gives 3 dudes poison or something which is worth much more. Shredder is a good card, but pally 4 mana slot is the single most competitive mana costed card in any curvestone deck.What? The deck benefits a lot from stickiness, it has 4 different buffs that need a body on the board to do anything useful.
There are no good shredder on 4, followed by turn 5 play. There are turn 3 muster or turn 3 lost in the jungles + heropower/2 drop followed by lightfused stegodon.
Even if we replace stegodon with something, there are better 4 mana options like the sword, the second keeper of uldaman or blessing of kings, consecration or even neutral stuff like defender of argus or cult master.
Post by: Rumble on August 29, 2017, 01:24:39 pm
anyone has had luck taking down the Lich King as a druid?
it has been a headache just trying to get past the second stage. and even then i barely have dented him. blizzard made him too much broken, cant put cheap stuff, cant put big minions, cant jade, and the guy gets the board full in a few turns. its almost impossible to clear.
EDIT:
nvm, this guy is impossible it seems. think im gonna get the hero cards from packs instead. what a waste of time.
Okay, this is not an impossible fight. Here is a deck I have used to defeat this encounter:
Lich King Druid Adventure
Class: Druid
2x (0) Innervate
2x (1) Earthen Scales
2x (1) Elven Archer
2x (1) Goldshire Footman
2x (1) Grimscale Oracle
2x (1) Jade Idol
2x (1) Murloc Raider
2x (1) Stonetusk Boar
2x (1) Voodoo Doctor
2x (2) Bloodfen Raptor
1x (2) Mark of the Wild
2x (2) Wild Growth
2x (2) Wrath
1x (3) Feral Rage
2x (3) Jade Blossom
2x (6) Gadgetzan Auctioneer
Quick Copy Code:
AAECAZICAtUBvqsCDoQBvwHYAf4BhQP+A4gFxAaaB6QH5Ai0uwLLvAL5wAIA
# To use this deck, copy the code to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone. The create deck button will read the clipboard and give you an option.
The trick here is that the Lich King's turn one card will destroy alot of fluff so you are left with a lean, pared down jade deck. You aim is to ramp up to Gadgetzan Auctioneer ASAP and then spam as many jades as possible in the the turns that your Auctioneers are alive. To that end, you should mulligan for Wild Growth and Jade Blossom. Use Wrath to cycle for ramp or Auctioneer + Innervate + Jade Idol. Use Feral Rage and Mark of the Wild for board control but they are optional, replace them with low cost minions if you prefer. Don't expect an Auctioneer to last more than one turn, the LK may Obliterate anything on the board. Earthen Scales for healing is probably better than using it to make favorable trades. Even after you fill your board you can use free mana to continue to summon more jades so that the next one you have space for is even bigger than it would be otherwise.
Obviously you won't win 100% of the time. This is a tough adventure. But give this deck a shot, it does work.
Post by: Strongpoint on August 29, 2017, 03:27:03 pm
Post by: Arx on September 02, 2017, 11:55:52 am
Admittedly I'm tilted and have hardly been playing recently, but it's mildly infuriating. Particularly since apparently there are people with fully kitted out meta decks well below rank 20?
Post by: Leafsnail on September 02, 2017, 01:26:37 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 02, 2017, 08:49:13 pm
anyone has had luck taking down the Lich King as a druid?
it has been a headache just trying to get past the second stage. and even then i barely have dented him. blizzard made him too much broken, cant put cheap stuff, cant put big minions, cant jade, and the guy gets the board full in a few turns. its almost impossible to clear.
EDIT:
nvm, this guy is impossible it seems. think im gonna get the hero cards from packs instead. what a waste of time.
druid is by far one of the easiest. what would ever make you think you can't jade.
Post by: Criptfeind on September 02, 2017, 11:05:38 pm
Post by: DolosusDoleus on September 04, 2017, 01:01:08 pm
My personal hope is that they nerf Spreading Plague or any of the mana ramp cards.
Post by: Darkmere on September 04, 2017, 01:15:44 pm
But yeah, I can see Blizzard gutting the entire rest of the class that's never been a real problem before just to avoid admitting what a terrible decision UI was.
Post by: Strongpoint on September 04, 2017, 02:32:34 pm
Ultimate Infestation is around 15 mana worth of effects and it usually gets played on turn 8. That one card is grotesque, and it's the only reason the mana ramp cards are worth playing in such high numbers.UI is absrud but it is not the only problem.
But yeah, I can see Blizzard gutting the entire rest of the class that's never been a real problem before just to avoid admitting what a terrible decision UI was.
In Ungoro Druid had two very strong decks (aggro and jade) and one quite strong (big druid). Blizzard reacted to that... by printing many strong cards. The only bad druid's cards in KFT are: gnash, fatespinner, webweave (yet they said it was the last minute change from 4 to 5 mana, with 4 mana it would be another very good card) and hadronox(yet it may have some potential later)
All other cards range from good to broken and either strengthen existing tier 1 decks or create a new archetype.
On other hand look at what rogues or hunters got... I can't see logic in such decisions.
Post by: Criptfeind on September 04, 2017, 02:38:57 pm
Hunter got crap cards because it's apparently really good at low ranks. Rogue always gets 'crap' cards lol. The rogue cycle: give it weird cards that are mostly bad, the diamonds in the rough are found and make a super op deck, nerf rogue.
Post by: Arx on September 04, 2017, 02:45:50 pm
I'm always a bit sad when hyper aggro decks are the current cheese, because I enjoy playing them. It's relaxing. So I don't at all mind that we're not in the bad old SMOrc Hunter days, but it is a bit disappointing that I don't get to play Rexxar much for the opposite reason.
Post by: Strongpoint on September 05, 2017, 04:06:13 am
The rogue cycle: give it weird cards that are mostly bad, the diamonds in the rough are found and make a super op deck, nerf rogue.You don't mean quest rogue here, right? It was a good deck, not OP. Rogues weren't tier one for a long time.
Post by: StagnantSoul on September 05, 2017, 04:56:24 am
Post by: Arx on September 05, 2017, 05:39:31 am
Post by: wereboar on September 05, 2017, 05:43:30 am
Aggro Hunter is alright too. Much less consistent but still fun.
Post by: Criptfeind on September 05, 2017, 06:50:56 am
You don't mean quest rogue here, right? It was a good deck, not OP. Rogues weren't tier one for a long time.
Quest rogue would be a bit of an exception to this, since it was a clearly strong deck from day 1, although it was certainly refined a lot over time. I mean the more aggro and miracle style rogues that pop up over time, sometimes it's arcane giants and edwin, sometimes coldbloods and leeroy jenkins, sometimes malagos. Sometimes murlocks. Sometimes just pirates beating in the face. The nerf rogue quip was about how it's gotten some of the biggest nerfs, loosing Blade Flurry, Conceal, small time buccaner, Leeroy Jenkins and auctioneer price increase, backstab nerf, even their hero power. But unlike other cards and decks that blizzard takes the nerf bat too, rogue seems to just keep on trucking, rogue might not have been the most broken opop deck ever recently, but it's been a long time since it was in the dumpster.
Hunter will always have a certain tendency to crush low ranked players, because aggression is almost always very effective against poor players of any game. It's not great, but I'm not sure it's a reason to kill Hunter.
Well, it's certainly not a great situation all round, but I think making it bad is an understandable reaction. Most players of the game are those at lower ranks, and their experience in the game matters as well. When hunter becomes just so good against lower ranked people but trash at high ranks, you sorta have to choose to let the minority of high ranked players have a single bad class that'll be mostly ignored in the meta in exchange for balancing lower rank play, or let the majority of low ranked players have a single super powered class that crushes their meta just so that high ranked players can have one more t3 or 2 deck in their meta. Ż\_(ツ)_/Ż
I don't think there's an easy answer there, but I think it's at least understandable why they went this way.
Post by: Arx on September 05, 2017, 07:51:23 am
Zoo got a bit heavy with Skelemancer and Bonemare but it actually shows great results on low to mid ranks.
Aggro Hunter is alright too. Much less consistent but still fun.
Everything is viable up to around rank 15, though. Zoo is really not a competitively powerful deck as far as I can tell, certainly not compared to what it used to be. Control variants are a lot stronger (witness DK Guldan being run even in zoo). It is workable, though.
Well, it's certainly not a great situation all round, but I think making it bad is an understandable reaction. Most players of the game are those at lower ranks, and their experience in the game matters as well. When hunter becomes just so good against lower ranked people but trash at high ranks, you sorta have to choose to let the minority of high ranked players have a single bad class that'll be mostly ignored in the meta in exchange for balancing lower rank play, or let the majority of low ranked players have a single super powered class that crushes their meta just so that high ranked players can have one more t3 or 2 deck in their meta. Ż\_(ツ)_/Ż
I don't think there's an easy answer there, but I think it's at least understandable why they went this way.
The point is well made, and that is something I've thought about a bit. It's the classic big game
HS is forced to make awkward compromises like Hunter either sucking as you get towards legend or being broken at lower ranks by its schizophrenic approach to competition. Also its bizarre "casual" mode I'm not sure anyone actually plays much now that you can't fall too far in ranked.
Post by: StagnantSoul on September 05, 2017, 08:26:05 am
Post by: Strongpoint on September 05, 2017, 08:36:33 am
Quote
Quest rogue would be a bit of an exception to this, since it was a clearly strong deck from day 1, although it was certainly refined a lot over time. I mean the more aggro and miracle style rogues that pop up over time, sometimes it's arcane giants and edwin, sometimes coldbloods and leeroy jenkins, sometimes malagos. Sometimes murlocks. Sometimes just pirates beating in the face. The nerf rogue quip was about how it's gotten some of the biggest nerfs, loosing Blade Flurry, Conceal, small time buccaner, Leeroy Jenkins and auctioneer price increase, backstab nerf, even their hero powerWell, I am rogue player with ~40% of my wins achieved by this class. I started to play in OG meta, so I never witnessed the golden times of miracle and existence of oil rogue but I know what you are talking about.
I am very disappointing with what rogues got in KfT. Push for weapon rogue, extremely slow deathknight, Yeti that transforms your spells to a random crap, bone baron aka further nerf to journey bellow, situational hard removal and no neutral cards that look any good in rogue. They didn't even bother to print a single stealth minion in the expansion! (Why print shadow sensei in MSG, then print no cards to support him?)
When they nerfed quest rogue I was sure that one of their reasons to do so is to have a chance to print decent 1 or 2 drops for rogues. Nope.
Post by: Strongpoint on September 05, 2017, 12:46:09 pm
Innervate will become a counterfit coin (IMO, unplayable. You need combo cards to make it worthwhile. Maybe I am wrong)
Spreading plague goes up to 6 mana (little less effective against flood the board kind of stuff)
Fire war axe will cost 3 mana (huge hit to warriors, I am not sure that pirate warriors will survive this)
Murloc Warleader will merely give +2 attack (A nasty hit to all murloc decks. I am considering 800 dust because I doubt that warleader will be playable in standard. On other hand I do enjoy anyfin paladin in wild...)
Hex will cost 4 mana (while I agree that hex is the best single target removal, but do control\midrange shamans deserve this hit? In fact best shaman decks don't play hex ATM)
I don't like this. The best aggressive decks are nerfed. Jade druid will still be here with a minor hit. Token shaman will be there. Razakus priest will be there.
On other hand > welcome back zoo. Your worst enemy (fire win axe) is gone.
Post by: DolosusDoleus on September 05, 2017, 01:05:34 pm
Glad to see that firey win axe is getting nerfed. The way I look at it, it's now a worse version of rallying blade.
Spreading plague should have been nerfed more. It's still gonna be in druid decks, because it plugs up their only real weakness: wide boards.
I kind of wish that they made a bigger hit to Jade, or nerfed UI. Eh, we'll see it it works. The only control deck I personally have a real issue with is jade druid.
Post by: Criptfeind on September 05, 2017, 01:25:23 pm
Hex, I guess, fair enough. Now instead of the best removal in the game it's tied for best roughly. But seems weird since it's not used by any op deck.
Warleader is a pretty big deal, I guess we'll have to see if the murlocks can survive. They are certainly going to take a hit.
Spreading plauge seems like a fair nerf.
Waraxe. Whoh. That's a huge nerf, turning what's probably the strongest card in the game into... Well, I'm not sure if that's playable. At 3 mana. Hum... Maybe barely so in some decks. That's a huge blow to every warrior deck ever.
Post by: Strongpoint on September 05, 2017, 01:31:35 pm
Quote
It seems to me like they completely obliterated Druid. The entire class is balanced around the fact that they have innervate. A change like this would be akin to removing prep from rogue, or tirion from paladin.I don't think druids are going anywhere. Innervate is a very good card but it is not a central piece of modern druid decks. Also, preparation is not that essential for rogue. Backstab and Evisicrate are the cards you'll see in each and every rogue deck. Prep is needed either for miracle or to do fancy stuff like 3 mana vanish in mill rogue or 2 mana guest reward in the quest rogue.
Quote
Glad to see that firey win axe is getting nerfed. The way I look at it, it's now a worse version of rallying blade.In other words you are glad that warriors will become a #9 class (IMO). What are warriors supposed to do on turn 2 against aggro decks? Doomsayer is not enough.This change is an obvious attempt to screw pirate warriors but I think control decks will be hit harder.
Quote
swapping it into the hall of fame instead.There are people who enjoy wild. Don't treat it as a graveyard for the broken cards.
Post by: StagnantSoul on September 05, 2017, 01:35:45 pm
Post by: Arx on September 05, 2017, 01:40:21 pm
Post by: Sindain on September 05, 2017, 01:53:48 pm
In other words you are glad that warriors will become a #9 class (IMO). What are warriors supposed to do on turn 2 against aggro decks? Doomsayer is not enough.This change is an obvious attempt to screw pirate warriors but I think control decks will be hit harder.
I think the FWA nerf is waaaaay worse for pirate warrior than control. Obviously it will hurt CW a lot, but despite what you say Doomsayer is still a perfectly fine turn 2. On the other hand, what does pirate warrior do on turn 2 now? Play a river croc? Cause that's about all it has left in the 2 slot without FWA.
Not to mention that aggro decks are hurt a lot more by missing turn 2 than control.
Post by: frostshotgg on September 05, 2017, 01:55:35 pm
Post by: StagnantSoul on September 05, 2017, 02:11:59 pm
Post by: Strongpoint on September 05, 2017, 02:39:44 pm
I think the FWA nerf is waaaaay worse for pirate warrior than control. Obviously it will hurt CW a lot, but despite what you say Doomsayer is still a perfectly fine turn 2. On the other hand, what does pirate warrior do on turn 2 now? Play a river croc? Cause that's about all it has left in the 2 slot without FWA.It is hard to say how the next iteration of aggro-warrior will look like. Lists will be different. Turn 2 is not a huge problem, there are decent options to place there. Turn 3 is. Pirate warrior has extremely powerful turn 3 plays: FWA+1 mana Dread corsair, Bloodsail cultist with pirate on board and FWA equipped, Frothing berserker with FWA equipped, FWA + southsea deckhand and many others. Yet I still expect tier 3 aggro warrior deck.
Not to mention that aggro decks are hurt a lot more by missing turn 2 than control.
Post by: Darkmere on September 05, 2017, 02:56:29 pm
I... can't think of many real situations where you'd want to play hex on curve, so I can't see the nerf doing much of anything. Which means they want to print a better silence card in the next expansion, so that's... whatever.
Murloc decks are dead, two weeks after I finally collected a murloc deck. Working as intended.
I never got desperate enough to craft the three cards I needed for wild pirate warrior, but I'm really not sad FWA got punched in the face. By all rights they should destroy frostbolt and fireball next, since those go in any mage deck regardless and it's really time to sell more cards.
Not a word about the naga giants horseshit either, so that's good. Might be time for me to bow out of the game if they're fine with fucking over the game mode I want to play and not even telling anyone in patch notes.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 05, 2017, 03:55:44 pm
Post by: Strongpoint on September 05, 2017, 04:09:27 pm
The Innervate nerf is huge, Innervate is currently the strongest card in the game and it's about the become OK but not great.Innervate is a strong card but effect is minor. Sure, Druid will lose some ridiculous turns but replacing two innervates isn't a huge problem. I expect jade druids be even stronger in the next meta because murloc paladin(main counter) is nerfed harder
Post by: Criptfeind on September 05, 2017, 05:13:01 pm
Quoteswapping it into the hall of fame instead.There are people who enjoy wild. Don't treat it as a graveyard for the broken cards.
Innervate isn't broken on it's own, it just permanently warps the game around itself and limits what other cards can be printed. Which is exactly the sorta card that wild is for. Such cards (like reno is a good example) are fine existing, just not forever.
Post by: Darkmere on September 05, 2017, 06:03:37 pm
The Innervate nerf is huge, Innervate is currently the strongest card in the game and it's about the become OK but not great.Innervate is a strong card but effect is minor. Sure, Druid will lose some ridiculous turns but replacing two innervates isn't a huge problem. I expect jade druids be even stronger in the next meta because murloc paladin(main counter) is nerfed harder
This is what I expect. They thumped druid on the nose and kicked their main rivals in the junk. It seems like the net result is a buff for druid. The problem was there wasn't really a downside for going all ramp cards, UI just refilled your hand and you went on playing at a 4-mana advantage. Now you just have to suffer playing with a 3-mana advantage instead.
It's been compared to karazhan nerfs where they nerfed shaman's competitors more than they nerfed shaman... which ended up just buffing shaman.
I could be wrong, it may slow druids up just enough that highroll priests can move in, and instead of man -> bigger man -> even bigger man every game is a diceroll where the bad outcome for you is facing endless 4/8's that autokill your board.
Post by: Strongpoint on September 06, 2017, 01:59:22 am
Innervate isn't broken on it's own, it just permanently warps the game around itself and limits what other cards can be printed. Which is exactly the sorta card that wild is for. Such cards (like reno is a good example) are fine existing, just not forever.I have to disagree. Innervate is a card that is a long standing problem in wild. With innervate merely moved there, any new 3\4\5 mana card may break wild. I understand that wild isn't intended to be properly balanced but wild need help to deal with such nonsense. For example FWA nerf is good for wild because pirate warrior is very deadly there and it will become better with new weapons printed. (For standard it is awful. I think control warrior is not a deck anymore)
Post by: wereboar on September 06, 2017, 03:13:54 am
On a different note, I'm sad to see Innervate and FWA go. They are strong, class-defining cards. And their power level does limit the designers of every new set. But that's kinda the point for classes to have archetypical cards which define their identity. Killing those staple cards designers will have more freedom but classes will become less unique and consistent and their archetypes will be redefined from set to set.
Post by: Strongpoint on September 06, 2017, 03:53:14 am
I have no idea what makes you think murloc paladin is the main counter to jade druid. Much more consistent counters are obviously OTK decks (quest exodia mage and DK exodia paladin mainly). Aggro relies too much on draw RNG and will cause a lot of ragequits. Spare your nervous system.Exodia needs to draw all their pieces and survive many waves of jades. Exodia is a control killer but jade druid is not a control deck.
What makes me think that murloc paladin is the best way to kill jade druid? Understanding that jade druid has hard time deal with a board full of murlocs, personal experience, watching tournaments and good old metastats.net.
Also, Exodia is anything but consistent. Quality of random spells can differ greatly and combo piece can be the last card in your deck
Post by: wereboar on September 06, 2017, 05:53:19 am
Exodia needs to draw all their pieces and survive many waves of jades. Exodia is a control killer but jade druid is not a control deck.Not exactly. Exodia is good against decks that are not aggro or combo. Jade druids just lump big creatures on the table and in that regards are no different from big druids. You stall and draw, then they die.
Sure, you need to draw your combo pieces. But more often than not you manage to draw your entire deck before the druid overwhelmes you. Heavy stalling works most of the time just because mage has so much of it. With paladins I've found it can be even easier if you draw a Geist in time.
What makes me think that murloc paladin is the best way to kill jade druid? Understanding that jade druid has hard time deal with a board full of murlocs, personal experience, watching tournaments and good old metastats.net.Aggro works, but murlocs are not even the best aggro deck right now. I still don't get what's so special about them. Pirate warrior or aggro druid are much scarier for jades.
Post by: Strongpoint on September 06, 2017, 06:24:54 am
Quote
Not exactly. Exodia is good against decks that are not aggro or combo. Jade druids just lump big creatures on the table and in that regards are no different from big druids. You stall and draw, then they die.Jade druid is an OK (50\50) match up for exodia.
They still put big stuff on the board and have at least 18 damage reach (2xswipe+2xUI) + 1 per turn from heropower or +3 per turn from buffed heropower.
If your opponent is bad and does stuff like shuffling his second idol and doesn't go face at every opportunity then yes, exodia works nicely. Else it is an even match not a counter.
Quote
Aggro works, but murlocs are not even the best aggro deck right now. I still don't get what's so special about them. Pirate warrior or aggro druid are much scarier.Murlocs are not the best aggro deck because once you your opponent removes your first wave of murlocs > you are in a bad shape. This especially true against pirate warrior who use weapons to kill all murlocs
But jade druid have serious problems removing waves. Spreading plague is the only hope but even it doesn't delay wave of murloc + megasaur or warleader for a long time like it does with aggro druid waves.
Post by: Arx on September 06, 2017, 06:46:05 am
What makes me think that murloc paladin is the best way to kill jade druid? Understanding that jade druid has hard time deal with a board full of murlocs, personal experience, watching tournaments and good old metastats.net.Aggro works, but murlocs are not even the best aggro deck right now. I still don't get what's so special about them. Pirate warrior or aggro druid are much scarier for jades.
According to TempoStorm, which may or may not be accurate, Pirate Warrior has something like a 13% lower winrate against Jade than Murloc Paladin. Murloc Paladin is also more more threatening to Jade than Aggro Druid is. As a matter of fact, TempoStorm's numbers mark Murloc and aggro Druid as the only popular decks that consistently beat Jade.
Murloc Paladin is actually midrange as much as aggro, so it's a lot more able to control shenanigans like, specifically, Spreading Plague, since Murlocs reward going wide just as much as Plague punishes it. BoK and Spikeridged both also enable clean trade-ups into Plague, Jade Behemoth, and Jades in general. Without the weapon focus of Pirates, Ooze is less of a slap in the face.
Just about everything in Murloc Paladin equips it to deal with Jade better than any other deck.
In practice, aggro Druid is easily the best aggro deck in the game right now, because lul Druidstone. But, you know, it's nice to be able to play decks that aren't S-tier and win occasionally.
Post by: Strongpoint on September 06, 2017, 06:55:03 am
Quote
Murloc Paladin is actually midrange as much as aggroMurloc paladin is a very vague definition. There are slower midrange versions with Stonehill defenders, Lich king and Tirion, there are fast versions with eight one drops and divine favor. When I say murloc paladin I usually mean something close to the later.
Post by: wereboar on September 06, 2017, 06:57:13 am
But jade druid have serious problems removing waves. Spreading plague is the only hope but even it doesn't delay wave of murloc + megasaur or warleader for a long time like it does with aggro druid waves.Right. But isn't aggro druid stronger for the same reason? He has a very tough board and fares against other decks better.
Just checked the metastats and here's what they say concerning most successful deck archetypes:
1 Jade Druid
2 Pirate Warrior
3 Aggro Token Druid
4 Midrange Paladin
5 Control Priest
6 Evolve Shaman
7 Midrange Hunter
8 Secret Mage
9 Highlander Priest
10 Exodia Mage
Obviously, right next to jade druids are decks specifically meant to counter them. Pirate warrior, aggro druid. Just as I've suggested. Midrange/murloc comes fourth. Decklist is a bit different from what I expected, not really aggro but very solid midrange. I might actually try this archetype, it does look decent.
Post by: Strongpoint on September 06, 2017, 07:07:05 am
Post by: Criptfeind on September 06, 2017, 07:44:08 am
According to TempoStorm, which may or may not be accurate, Pirate Warrior has something like a 13% lower winrate against Jade than Murloc Paladin.
I think you're reading the tables wrong, it says that pirate warrior is much better against jade, and murlock paladin is an almost even match up. The deck each square is talking about is the one to the left.
Anyway, Exodia needs to draw though their whole deck to win, jade can draw though faster and play jades faster until they run out of removal. If Exodia gets lucky, it draws it's combo fast enough and wins, if not, jade overruns and wins. Pretty even match up. Aggro paladin murlock is okay against jade, but not as quick and thus not as good at burning them down as compared to pirate warrior and aggro druid. At least, in my opinion. Yeah, you win if you get the right draws to get a big buff board, but I personally find that a little bit harder to do then with aggro druid, or then just beating them down with pirate warrior.
I have to disagree. Innervate is a card that is a long standing problem in wild. With innervate merely moved there, any new 3\4\5 mana card may break wild. I understand that wild isn't intended to be properly balanced but wild need help to deal with such nonsense. For example FWA nerf is good for wild because pirate warrior is very deadly there and it will become better with new weapons printed. (For standard it is awful. I think control warrior is not a deck anymore)
This is literally why wild exists though. Because eventually piling up old cards on top of each other causes such issues and produces broken combos. I think it's perfectly fine for such conflicts (like fledgling and innervate) to exist together in wild, that's sorta the point, yeah?
Post by: wereboar on September 06, 2017, 07:52:59 am
Well, you jump to conclusions there. First of all midrange paladin is not the same as murloc paladin under metastats (and my) definition.Well, I actually checked what they call "midrange paladin" (http://metastats.net/archetypedecks/Midrange-Paladin/last4/) in current meta and it looks like mostly midrange murloc decks.
This is literally why wild exists though. Because eventually piling up old cards on top of each other causes such issues and produces broken combos. I think it's perfectly fine for such conflicts (like fledgling and innervate) to exist together in wild, that's sorta the point, yeah?Fair point.
Post by: Strongpoint on September 06, 2017, 09:15:50 am
Quote
I think you're reading the tables wrong, it says that pirate warrior is much better against jade, and murlock paladin is an almost even match up. The deck each square is talking about is the one to the left.What tables at tempostorm? Here is their jade druid page (https://tempostorm.com/hearthstone/decks/jade-druid-standard-meta-snapshot-sep-3-2017) and you can see that tempostorm consides midrange murloc paladin the best high tier deck to counter druid.
Quote
This is literally why wild exists though.I disagree. Wild exist to a) prevent staleness of the standard meta. b) Make game more accessible for new players. It is not c)Place with no balance at all meant to be a graveyard for the decks of the past.
Quote
Well, I actually checked what they call "midrange paladin" in current meta and it looks like mostly midrange murloc decks.OK. Lets call it a midrange version of a murloc deck. It will be a more accurate name. I think the faster paladin deck is the higher chance to win it has. Something like this (http://metastats.net/deck/ff43fd12-6ad5-49a1-84f3-87a80138da4d/last7/) is one of my choices to go for jade druid hunting but with warleader nerf this kind of deck will lose a huge chunk of snowballing potential.
Edit: ooops. Links fixed
Post by: Criptfeind on September 06, 2017, 09:31:34 am
Yes, wild exists to prevent staleness of the standard meta by being the graveyard for the decks of the past. I'm not sure where you get making the game more accessible for new players. You need cards from packs you can't even buy in game to play in wild. It's not a new player zone.
Post by: Arx on September 06, 2017, 09:45:16 am
I disagree. Wild exist to a) prevent staleness of the standard meta.
Fair.
Quote
b) Make game more accessible for new players.
That's the opposite of it's purpose. If you look at MtG's Modern format, it's almost identical to Wild - notably, both of them are there so that players can still use their older cards without new players having to spend thousands on packs. For instance, Reno Priest is pretty high tier in Wild right now and to play it you need League and Naxx, plus cards from basically every set. And that's just one deck.
To play a high-tier standard deck, there are a lot fewer constraints.
Quote
It is not c)Place with no balance at all meant to be a graveyard for the decks of the past.
I don't think it should be, but everything starting from the way it's called "Wild, because it's just that" to retiring Classic cards to Wild rather than (temporarily?) removing them suggests that Blizzard disagrees with you (and me).
Oh, lol whoops. Sorry, for some reason I read tempostorm as vicioussyndicate. So many different metatracking sites.
Yeah, it's why I prefaced my post with not being sure if TS's numbers are right. I really have no clue, but it's better than flailing in the dark.
Post by: Strongpoint on September 06, 2017, 09:49:05 am
Yes, wild exists to prevent staleness of the standard meta by being the graveyard for the decks of the past. I'm not sure where you get making the game more accessible for new players. You need cards from packs you can't even buy in game to play in wild. It's not a new player zone.I mean that wild makes it easier to have standard decks. Official blizzard's idea that brand new player won't have to buy shitload of packs from the old expansion and can focus their attention on the most recent(5 to 8) ones.
Funny enough if your goal is to have few competitive decks, maintaining wild decks is far cheaper than constantly crafting new decks for standard. Once you craft... lets say renolock, all you need to do is getting the cards that can improve it and it is few of those each expansion.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 06, 2017, 12:15:25 pm
This is what I expect. They thumped druid on the nose and kicked their main rivals in the junk. It seems like the net result is a buff for druid. The problem was there wasn't really a downside for going all ramp cards, UI just refilled your hand and you went on playing at a 4-mana advantage. Now you just have to suffer playing with a 3-mana advantage instead.I've seen people trying to make this comparison but it seems very wrong to me. With the Shaman nerfs the best Shaman deck received no meaningful nerfs at all (Midrange never played Rockbiter Weapon and a lot of builds cut Tuskarr Totemic anyway) while all its competitors took crippling nerfs to their best cards. In this case the Innervate nerf is very meaningful as it's the best card in Druid and indeed the game. And Spreading Plague was a key way to shore up Jade Druid's glaring weakness to board flood strategies.
It's been compared to karazhan nerfs where they nerfed shaman's competitors more than they nerfed shaman... which ended up just buffing shaman.
I could be wrong, it may slow druids up just enough that highroll priests can move in, and instead of man -> bigger man -> even bigger man every game is a diceroll where the bad outcome for you is facing endless 4/8's that autokill your board.
The Hex nerf is basically irrelevant as a) the card is still fine and b) the best Shaman deck doesn't even use it. The Warleader nerf is something but I don't think it's that big of a deal, Murloc Paladin still has possibly the strongest early plays in the game and pushes a lot of damage with both Warleader and Megasaur. The Fiery War Axe nerf is the only one that's anywhere close to as impactful as the Druid one.
Post by: Criptfeind on September 06, 2017, 12:41:37 pm
Edit: Also the warleader nerf is a pretty big deal, but not against druid as much, probably. Warleaders were really good at boosting out of mage and priest aoe range, as well as protecting against paladin board clear. It'll really hurt those match ups for the decks that use it, but probably not be that bad against druid.
Post by: Darkmere on September 17, 2017, 04:51:08 am
The guy got so pissed off he roped me every single turn for both games. Literally just finished a 45 minute game where he was so mad at a children's card game he just stewed in rage for most of an hour.
I think this is the highlight of my week. Seriously.
Post by: Cthulufaic on September 17, 2017, 11:18:44 am
Well. I just faced a control paladin in wild casual, twice. I was playing Dudes.Did you summon an even larger man? (http://www.summonanevenlargerman.com/)
The guy got so pissed off he roped me every single turn for both games. Literally just finished a 45 minute game where he was so mad at a children's card game he just stewed in rage for most of an hour.
I think this is the highlight of my week. Seriously.
Post by: Darkmere on September 17, 2017, 01:30:00 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on September 20, 2017, 08:01:18 pm
Post by: Darkmere on September 20, 2017, 08:30:34 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on September 20, 2017, 08:38:37 pm
Also on Simulacrum, it is very slow compared to molten reflection, and a lot of lists out there run only 1 copy of it instead of two, which I personally think is probably about right. It's pretty rare for the sorcerers apprentices to be the thing you wait on in a slow game (I normally find that either the archmage being on the bottom of the deck or a tome being down there is what trips me up the most.) and games where you gota go fast the 5 mana (which is only very rarely mitigated to 4) and having to empty your hand of other 2 drops can be a killer compared to molten reflection.
Post by: Darkmere on September 20, 2017, 10:02:08 pm
Oh, Doomsayer was the other 1-of I was missing. But yeah, I'll probably just skip it for now since I already have the wild secret deck and it works well enough.
Post by: wereboar on September 21, 2017, 04:19:34 am
My guess is the changes were aimed at future expansion more than at fixing the current meta.
Post by: Strongpoint on September 21, 2017, 04:46:17 am
Hearthstone would be so much better card if minimal cost for card\hero power was 1 mana
Post by: Darkmere on September 21, 2017, 01:54:11 pm
I am still confused about the balance changes. FWA's nerf did not decrease pirate warrior's win rates. Jade druids are still at the top too. Hex nerf changed literally nothing. Murlocks nerf might be actually significant but it's not immediately obvious now as I play them.
My guess is the changes were aimed at future expansion more than at fixing the current meta.
They made old cards shittier so people will want to buy new ones. The game director said as much.
Post by: Criptfeind on September 21, 2017, 03:18:01 pm
At least, that's the logic as I understand it. I personally don't agree. I think that it would have been okay for the win axe to exist forever in every single warrior deck. Although I'll admit that it might have been overpowered. But on the other hand like Darkmere puts out, this way they can print cards that people want to buy.
Post by: Darkmere on September 22, 2017, 12:57:29 am
Further, there's a HUGE gap between "playably good" (Bonemare, Aya) and complete garbage by design (sunborne Val'kyr, Moorabi), so in order to compete at all, cards have to be absurd. If this trend continues, new players get put in the playpen with their shit cards that no one uses anymore and have to pay to play with all the cool cards the streamers get to use. And since standard is pushed with everything, might as well eat a huge loss and dust those in a couple years to keep up.
Post by: frostshotgg on September 22, 2017, 01:21:10 am
At that point blizz hadn't entirely discarded the idea of preserving the new player experience, so they justified it as for the sake of new players.
They then proceeded to trash decks that heavily relied on evergreen cards, and have steadily been nerfing the other relevant ones. Returning to exhibit A, that they shouldn't have had an evergreen set at all. At some point, presumably player rage will boil over to the point where they get rid of it entirely, then piss everyone off even more because they don't believe in reprints either.
Post by: LASD on September 26, 2017, 03:23:46 am
At that point blizz hadn't entirely discarded the idea of preserving the new player experience, so they justified it as for the sake of new players.
The new player experience has actually dramatically improved over the last year or so. The biggest thing is that new players are now in a separate matchmaking pool for a while after starting. Which brings win rates up by quite a lot. The session where you transcend this pool is still pretty jarring. Thankfully, Un'Goro and Frozen Throne have introduced a lot of very powerful common cards (Bonemare, Cobalt Scalebane, Crackling Razormaw, Tar Creeper, Ravasaur Runt, Bearshark etc.) that let you climb Ranked ladder beyond Rank 20 even in your first months. Also, guaranteed legendaries in first 10 packs is a godsend for new players.
I recently introduced someone to Hearthstone and they've been having a really good time and just by doing dailies for a bit over a month, they already have most commons from Un'Goro and Frozen Throne. And having gotten a bit lucky with the guaranteed legendaries, pretty powerful decks as well.
Post by: Darkmere on September 26, 2017, 03:51:10 am
A lot of the complaints I see on Reddit are people who immediately go to play ladder or for some reason expect to just be given a full collection of cards for $20 or less.
Further... I can't understand why people think they NEED a full collection of every single card when so many of them are just unplayable garbage.
Post by: Leafsnail on September 28, 2017, 12:04:50 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on September 28, 2017, 01:13:27 pm
the whole monthly season thing is obviously a big part of the problem, dumping experienced-but-infrequent players with lots of resources down towards the bottom.
Post by: Criptfeind on September 30, 2017, 11:25:07 am
The bad news is this complaint can't really be immediately or quickly fixed without major overhauls that I don't think are going to happen. The good news is that it is something that will just fix itself in time if blizzard is more conscientious about their choices for power cards and abilities that expensive cards have. The double bad news is I sorta doubt blizzard will care about this price increase unless it starts dropping a huge number of players out of the game.
Post by: frostshotgg on September 30, 2017, 12:02:06 pm
Post by: Arx on September 30, 2017, 12:41:32 pm
none that literally made the deck function like quests or death knights do.
Reno Jackson says hello, but your point stands nonetheless. Just wanted to point out that whilst it's much, much more prevalent now, this isn't totally new.
Post by: frostshotgg on September 30, 2017, 01:09:32 pm
Post by: Darkmere on October 24, 2017, 12:38:51 pm
I had a druid sit behind taunts all game until he hit face with UI... to draw pyroblast.
... 80 dust from the two packs and fucking done.
Post by: Jopax on November 04, 2017, 10:18:17 am
They seem to be adding a proper single player of sorts with a dungeon run mode with some 40 odd encounters made for it.
Other highlights is the new recruit keyword which pulls minions from your deck (seems to be conditional too with stuff like pulling minions which cost less than a certain amount of mana in some cases), every class getting a legendary weapon (one of them is a 7 mana 0/3 that draws 3 cards at the end of your turn, seems pretty cool) and the introduction of spellstones which are kinda like mini quests I guess. In that they're spells which can be upgraded trough certain actions like gaining armor as druid or overloading as shaman.
All in all, if the singleplayer turns out good I might come back and play just that.
Post by: RedKing on November 08, 2017, 11:50:11 am
So I figured, "Hey, I've got a pretty decent collection now, let's try ranked".
Oh dear god. Even at rank 24, I'm running into people with half a dozen Legendaries who seem to have perfect hands, no matter the situation.
Fuck this game right in its gold-plated shitter.
There really ought to be a restriction, like X number of Legendaries per deck, X number of epics, etc. Otherwise you can literally stuff your deck with legendaries and epics and trololo your way to victory.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on November 08, 2017, 07:13:13 pm
For a long time, I've just been playing Tavern Brawl (and Arena when I get free passes), and slowly working my way through Karazhan.
So I figured, "Hey, I've got a pretty decent collection now, let's try ranked".
Oh dear god. Even at rank 24, I'm running into people with half a dozen Legendaries who seem to have perfect hands, no matter the situation.
Fuck this game right in its gold-plated shitter.
There really ought to be a restriction, like X number of Legendaries per deck, X number of epics, etc. Otherwise you can literally stuff your deck with legendaries and epics and trololo your way to victory.
yeah... no. the problem isn't the number of legendaries or even epics. it's just that specific decks are extremely good, compared to the average deck made by the average person. there are good decks with lots of legendaries and there are good decks with 0-2 legendaries. you don't get a better deck just by adding more.
Post by: Criptfeind on November 08, 2017, 10:59:54 pm
However as I said, in my opinion it's truly a bad time in hearthstone for a new player. Simply because legendarys are becoming more ubiquitous across decks. I think patches is the biggest offender here... Keleseth sorta sucks as well though. I'm very interested to see what will happen over the next four to five months as patches rotates out. Potentially things will get better? I think it'll depend on how much of blizzards "we care about the new player experience" talk is just lip service.
Post by: Leafsnail on November 09, 2017, 07:16:42 am
Post by: Jopax on November 09, 2017, 07:17:05 am
Post by: MCreeper on November 09, 2017, 08:19:27 am
Post by: Criptfeind on November 09, 2017, 08:35:24 am
The real new player experience these days is "cheaper" decks topping out with at least a legendary and a handful of epics, whereas the equivalent decks a year or so ago would top out with maybe an epic or two. As always, you can, especially if you're good at the game, sorta make due with sub optimal decks, but you will be weaker and you will loose to people who simply have more dust to craft their stuff then you. Patches, hydras, the prince. If you don't have them, your deck is probably just going to be straight up weaker then if you did. And they aren't easily obtainable. The power level isn't an easy climb. It's a real fucking grind.
Hunter remains an exception, although it's pretty weak compared to a lot of comparable decks, whereas decks that cost as much as the current hunter decks were at one point the top tier decks.
Post by: ThtblovesDF on November 09, 2017, 12:31:03 pm
Post by: wereboar on November 09, 2017, 12:42:09 pm
The previous year top decks were indeed cheap and absoltely retarded. I'm happy to see higher tier decks of today becoming more expensive and requiring more skill to play effectively.
Gwent managed to hold my attention for three months. Fine game, moving on.
Post by: Darkmere on November 09, 2017, 05:51:12 pm
Secret mage is strong with no legendaries and extremely safe to craft epics (primordial glyph will be good forever unless you insist on shooting yourself in the foot and playing standard only).
There's an aggressive Dudes paladin deck that, as far as I remember, doesn't even run an epic card in it.
Post by: Criptfeind on November 09, 2017, 06:42:28 pm
I'd be interested to know about this tempo rogue without legendarys, since the tempo rogue that I know gets its main power from a bunch of legendary and epic cards (and bonemare) and is probably the most expensive aggro deck that there's ever been in hearthstone.
And, yeah, you're right, secret mage is okay. It's probably better then hunter. Probably the best budget deck that can be reasonably called such. It's not all gone downhill for a new player. Just mostly.
The previous year top decks were indeed cheap and absoltely retarded. I'm happy to see higher tier decks of today becoming more expensive and requiring more skill to play effectively.
I can understand wanting decks to take "more skill" but why would you want more expensive to equal good? Unless you're an absolute whale of a player without any empathy, the game being even more pay to win then necessary just seems like a straight up bad thing. I mean, I'm pretty sure hearthstone is making enough money it's not in any danger of shutting down, so why do you think it should cost more to play better decks?
Post by: Darkmere on November 09, 2017, 10:20:14 pm
Also, I'm just going to abstain from further discussion, this argument has made me irritated enough on reddit as it is.
Post by: Strongpoint on November 13, 2017, 11:38:02 pm
Quote
I'd be interested to know about this tempo rogue without legendarys, since the tempo rogue that I know gets its main power from a bunch of legendary and epic cards (and bonemare) and is probably the most expensive aggro deck that there's ever been in hearthstone.Something like...
# Class: Rogue
# Format: Standard
# Year of the Mammoth
#
# 2x (0) Backstab
# 2x (1) Acherus Veteran
# 2x (1) Argent Squire
# 2x (1) Cold Blood
# 2x (1) Fire Fly
# 2x (2) Defias Ringleader
# 2x (2) Eviscerate
# 2x (2) Golakka Crawler
# 2x (2) Razorpetal Lasher
# 1x (3) Plague Scientist
# 2x (3) SI:7 Agent
# 2x (3) Tar Creeper
# 2x (4) Dark Iron Dwarf
# 1x (4) Spellbreaker
# 2x (5) Cobalt Scalebane
# 2x (7) Bonemare
#
AAECAYO6AgLyBZTQAg60AckBjALcAvUFiAfdCPjBAuTCAuvCAsrDAsrLApXOAqbOAgA=
...is totally a rank 5 material in the right hands. Edwin and Slayers are sorely missed. Pirate package is nice but having none of them isn't that bad in the current "crawlers everywhere" meta. Lack of prince is compensated by good old eviscerates.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 10, 2017, 11:07:04 pm
Post by: Darkmere on December 11, 2017, 05:11:17 am
everyone too busy playing dungeon runs to talk about new expansion eh
... Guilty as charged. Had serious trouble with paladin, oddly enough, but I did get my 9 wins.
During spoiler season I was skeptical, but after launch I'm warming up to the set here and there.
Out of 79 packs with gold and the promotional packs, I got:
* Ixlid, the druid legendary (seems really slow, haven't tried him yet)
* Dragon Soul (I have Lyra but I haven't played miracle priest since April, dunno how well it could perform now)
* Sonya Shadowdancer (awesome in dungeon runs, want to put her in my wild jade DK rogue)
* Grumble, Worldshaker (seems winmore... I can't think of a position where you want to skip a turn for his effect unless you're already way ahead on board and don't care?)
* Skull of Man'ari (haven't used it yet, seems good if weapon hate isn't popular)
* Rin the First Disciple in Golden (I want to use her with the Skull, just need to craft Mal'ganis at some point. That's a LOT of shiny gold cards and Azari's animation is pretty awesome)
* Zola the Gorgon - the swiss army knife of the set. She's useful somewhere in almost every deck, and I now have every golden minion ever. Doubleplus good.
The recruit mechanic is more interesting than patches, and I'm astonished that spell-face hunter got any play time, but it's been hilarious to watch. Otherwise, as per usual I'm not crafting anything for a couple weeks until the meta shakes out.
Post by: Jopax on December 11, 2017, 03:10:11 pm
Yes it's imbalanced and heavily reliant on luck but it's also short, crazy and fun, and costs you nothing but the half hour it'd take to do the whole run.
It has some issues that I'd like to see adressed tho, mainly how certain runs can just drop dead if run into a particular boss that just hard counters your class (namely that fucking trogg that summons tunnel troggs and any class that relies on spells, he's ok if you're both low lvl so he doesn't have much HP, but good luck getting him down from 40 with every spell you cast giving him a distinct board advantage) and one of the final bosses being so damn random that there is little to no thinking in facing him other than burn face with whatever the fuck you have and hope you get stalls and boardclears once his bullshit treasures kick in, and even then you might not have enough to stem the tide of a full hand of 0 cost legendaries.
Still, super fun regardless.
As far as cards from packs go, think I've had like 10 random packs from whatever when I logged in today, got that gorgon lady, got aluneth as my expansion weapon and that shitty runespear in another pack. Some assorted stuff for other classes too, don't think I'll be playing any of it in the forseeable future tho, solo play is far too fun to bother with the shitfest of constructed atm.
Post by: Darkmere on December 11, 2017, 05:07:08 pm
His deck is literally all removal, I checked. Entomb mind control shadow words psychic scream twisting nether.
On another run I just milled him completely to death, so that felt good.
To date I think my favorite run was a double battlecry paladin with a load of buffs and three Lynessas that buffed up to more than 35 damage when played... but double deathrattle Val'anyr (https://i.redd.it/83xq19m1ew201.png) can be okay, I guess.
Post by: Jopax on December 11, 2017, 06:06:34 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on December 11, 2017, 09:55:56 pm
On the dungeon runs, they're alright. I'd like a lot more if they had at least a little bit of progression too them. The ability to do quests or something.
Post by: Darkmere on December 12, 2017, 01:33:19 pm
I don't have the tools to make Spell hunter, but I think the DK card works really well as top-end in a midrange deck. I've been using it in a wild egg hunter deck that feels great to play and has a decent enough win rate for quests. I also wouldn't be surprised if the new spellstone combo'd with a secret package well enough to throw DK Rex in there, too.
Plus it's just a fun card all around.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on December 12, 2017, 01:59:41 pm
but that was ok because Wax Rager+double Deathrattle showed up to win the day.
Post by: Darkmere on January 07, 2018, 12:48:13 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Medivh, the GuardianThe goal is to abuse copies of twig of the world tree or Atiesh to make big board swings. No one expects silly shit like this in druid, so they'll spend most of the game trying to figure out wtf you're even doing while you drop ixlid and golden zola clones and reforge weapons like a champ. Everything is surprisingly flexible... spreading plague into +2 attack from branching paths for some burst, clone a 4/4 charger with zola and use your weapon copies to pay for two turns in a row to play it.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on January 09, 2018, 10:37:22 am
Alright, have a stupid expensive meme deck I came up with.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The goal is to abuse copies of twig of the world tree or Atiesh to make big board swings. No one expects silly shit like this in druid, so they'll spend most of the game trying to figure out wtf you're even doing while you drop ixlid and golden zola clones and reforge weapons like a champ. Everything is surprisingly flexible... spreading plague into +2 attack from branching paths for some burst, clone a 4/4 charger with zola and use your weapon copies to pay for two turns in a row to play it.
it makes me wonder if there is some viable otk/exodia druid deck. card like ixlid and twig suggest that there is.
Post by: Darkmere on January 09, 2018, 04:29:15 pm
Post by: xaritscin on March 27, 2018, 02:42:12 pm
of course you need 6 mana to pull it out but its good when you really need to start pumping those golems. i wish there were more jade options for Shaman tho :/ overloading doesnt help me much and i dont have enough murlocs/totems (actually i have some totem cards i was never good with it) or freezing/evolving cards to use like the last expansions.
meanwhile a Druid can spam jade golems out of nowhere with just a 1 mana card and multiple drawing, really unfair for the rest of the Jade Lotus aligned classes (i tried Jade Rogue but dont have enough to pull it properly, at least in Rogue terms).
anyways, prop to the guy that added that little elemental, the Kobol Dungeons is also a really neat adventure, still getting rekt tho, but its much more fun to run than Icecrown Citadel, couldnt beat the Lich King.
the new expansion's card seem interesting but i still dont see much stuff for shaman, the new Hero Card seems neat because she could give me more Jade Lightning or something out of the hero power but with Mean Streets of Gadgetzan being sent to wild im not sure how does that work at all (i play wild anyways).
outside of that the new druid 4 mana spell looks cool, if only the Wisps had charge :P
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 27, 2018, 03:16:52 pm
man that new 2/1 elemental that repeats battlecries is really neat. i never had Brann Bronzebeard so couldnt properly pull some stuff with my Jade Shaman, just having one is more than enough to up the guys to 7/7 or beyond.
of course you need 6 mana to pull it out but its good when you really need to start pumping those golems. i wish there were more jade options for Shaman tho :/
jade is a cancer that never should have been in the game
Post by: Criptfeind on March 27, 2018, 03:21:41 pm
man that new 2/1 elemental that repeats battlecries is really neat. i never had Brann Bronzebeard so couldnt properly pull some stuff with my Jade Shaman, just having one is more than enough to up the guys to 7/7 or beyond.
of course you need 6 mana to pull it out but its good when you really need to start pumping those golems. i wish there were more jade options for Shaman tho :/
jade is a cancer that never should have been in the game
Lol. Well. Not Jade idol at least. :P Jade shaman isn't thaaaaat bad.
Post by: xaritscin on March 27, 2018, 04:07:56 pm
-Rogue Jade cards are only 2, a low damage combat spell that needs to combo to summon anything and low health stealth card with the summon part as death rattle
-Shaman Jade cards range from a weapon that gives overload early game, a 7 mana summon with battlecry and a destruction spell
both of those classes have more or less balanced sets for Jade because one has to focus on multiplying cards + combo/deathrattle focus in the deck while the other can keep all three cards in a cohesive deck as long as you add some extra shaman cards to do things like double the battlecries or get some overload synergy and stuff like that. on top of that the amount of golems are gated by the amount of cards you can add so you cant get infinite golems with those two, you have to try and finish as fast as possible against certain other decks (or in the case of Rogue spend 6-7 mana to copy those stealth minions).
Druid on the other hand is the only class inside that faction that gives issues with the golems because it gets extra effects from all the cards apart of infinite spawning for golems. Jade Blossom -> gets extra mana crystal, Jade Behemot -> it has taunt with a robust amount of health and damage for its cost, Jade Idol -> costs 1 mana and if used with certain druid cards you can both spam the golem and get 3 copies of the card again on the deck.
Post by: Darkmere on March 27, 2018, 08:14:54 pm
Post by: Criptfeind on March 27, 2018, 08:17:27 pm
Post by: xaritscin on March 27, 2018, 11:15:36 pm
-Echo: cards with echo produce a ghostly copy on your hand that you can re use, but they only last that turn and consume extra mana.
-Impulse: like Charge but the card cannot focus heroes on the same turn
-a third feature i dont remember the name for some cards in which they turn into a Worgen version and back each turn, swapping health and damage.
seems there will be 4 new hero cards or something like that too. the first one to be revealed as a Shaman hero.
so far the expansion looks interesting enough, still, the changes to enrage are weird taking in account other cards have 2 tags/traits/habilities or whatever they are called. if they want to reduce that stuff in a single card they should have started with those Deathrattle + Taunt ones. Deathlord, Sludgebelcher, Direhorn Hatchling, Tortollan Protector and Obsidian Statue are an absolute cancer to deal with because of their interactions with cards like N'zoth or Hadronox.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 28, 2018, 07:47:29 am
next expansion is called The Witchwood or something like that. it brings 3 new mechanics:
-Echo: cards with echo produce a ghostly copy on your hand that you can re use, but they only last that turn and consume extra mana.
"extra mana" makes it sound like they cost more. they cost the same as the original. it's just unstable evolution but for everything.
Quote
-Impulse: like Charge but the card cannot focus heroes on the same turn
did you pull this off a google translate site from chinese or something? it's called Rush, and yes, it's exactly like Charged Devilsaur (charge but can only target minions on the first turn).
Post by: Criptfeind on March 28, 2018, 08:18:52 am
The worgen stat swapping is, like joust or enrage now, an unamed mechanic without a keyword. The reasoning I've heard that enrage lost it's keyword status isn't to reduce stuff in a single card (in fact, it does the opposite of the that, enrage did slightly reduce wordyness) but rather because it's not used widely enough and they've found that "whenever this minion takes damage" (like Acolyte of Pain) is a better and more interesting mechanic then "when damaged" so that's going to be the focus of enrage style cards anyway.
There are also new mechanics for "odd" and "even" decks, where your deck only has cards of odd and even mana cost, including 2 legendary cards that change your heropower at the start of the game (even makes it cost 1, odd gives it the Justicar upgrade. Both cards are trash to actually play with a high cost per stat ratio) and there's about half a dozen synergy cards that have battlecries that only go off if your deck is made of odd or even cards.
Post by: Darkmere on March 28, 2018, 12:06:28 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 28, 2018, 03:28:57 pm
It sounds like the gimmicky first set of an expansion and most of that sounds unplayable. K&C ruined the game for me and it sounds like they're just leaving it to fester, so I don't see myself coming back I suppose.
lol what
let's not forget what's rotating out at the same time. the game is guaranteed to change if only because of that.
Post by: Criptfeind on March 28, 2018, 03:41:37 pm
Post by: Darkmere on March 28, 2018, 04:35:54 pm
let's not forget what's rotating out at the same time. the game is guaranteed to change if only because of that.
I don't play standard because I'm not going to throw away half of my cards every year.
I wanted to play wild because that's supposed to be the place where you get to play with your old cards and get to see all the wacky stuff, but every "this is going to be good for a long time" deck I made lasted less than three months. Last I checked back it was a contest of draws for who could win before turn 5 OR who could spam the most removals before their 30+ damage combo came out.
Giants warlock, ffs.
It came down to... I'm not playing more because it was grindy enough as it was. and I'm not PAYING more because they have a vested interest in destroying the good decks every 2 months or so... so it's not worth my time. I hoped there would be something really new but it seems like the 18 class legendary (with maybe 3 or 4 of them being usable) is profitable enough for them to coast on.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 28, 2018, 08:30:16 pm
let's not forget what's rotating out at the same time. the game is guaranteed to change if only because of that.
I don't play standard because I'm not going to throw away half of my cards every year.
I wanted to play wild because that's supposed to be the place where you get to play with your old cards and get to see all the wacky stuff, but every "this is going to be good for a long time" deck I made lasted less than three months.
you have some really interesting ideas about how the game should work, which unfortunately don't line up with how hearthstone or ccgs generally actually work, so i understand that hearthstone isnt a game for you.
Post by: Darkmere on March 28, 2018, 11:58:07 pm
Post by: Strongpoint on March 29, 2018, 02:10:44 am
Post by: xaritscin on March 29, 2018, 10:26:44 am
also again, Jade decks would be fine if Druid didnt have such favoritism, its the main reason on why people hate Jade golems in general. Jade Rogue and Jade shaman are easily countered, perhaps even underpowered.
Post by: Strongpoint on March 29, 2018, 10:41:32 am
Quote
i just wish they nerfed aggro+deathrattle cards on top of aggro spam decks, mill decks and priest in general.Looks like someone likes to play greedy decks. Aggro kills greed, Mill counters attempts to win by fatigue and priest... well it is extremely hard to outgreed priest.
Post by: xaritscin on March 29, 2018, 11:21:18 am
more than greed is frustration since those decks usually rely on spamming aggro that returns with a simple N'zoth throw on top of healing or getting extra armor that they dont really need because you cant even burst them down in the whole match.
Post by: Strongpoint on March 29, 2018, 01:38:21 pm
Quote
more than greed is frustration since those decks usually rely on spamming aggro that returns with a simple N'zoth throw on top of healing or getting extra armorYou have a weird definition of aggro here. Decks that play N'zoth aren't aggro at all, in fact only hunter has anywhere decent deathrattles that can be called aggro.
N'zoth is going wild and I'll miss him somewhat... on other hand there are a chance for a good neutral deathrattles now.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on March 29, 2018, 02:52:51 pm
Post by: Jopax on April 13, 2018, 01:32:14 am
This is seriously one of the shittier expansions imo. Most of it is unexciting cards replacing all the cool shit we've had before with some stupidly broken shit like Shudderwock sprinkled in. It's also pretty silly how they made a standard rotation and didn't start a new ranked season for it, making it a complete shitshow for the most part. And there's not single player dungeon run yet for whatever reason, which was the main draw for me tbh.
I'd say wait this one out, maybe they'll not wait until two months before Shudderwock rotates out to nerf it :V
Post by: Darkmere on April 13, 2018, 04:49:57 am
Post by: Jopax on April 13, 2018, 08:00:38 am
Honestly, beyond the otk combo being a shitty thing, especially how stupid it is in this case, the worst part of this deck is that you don't have to have all your cards for the combo and play them on the same turn, which was the condition for pretty much every other otk deck and their main drawback. Here, you just play pretty good battlecry cards as you draw them until you get part or most of the combo and then just slam shudder whenever you can until your opponent either dies or concedes because who the hell wants to waste half an hour on the same animation and sound loop.
Post by: Darkmere on April 13, 2018, 12:21:06 pm
I'd say they should keep inviting players to playtest the alphas, but that leads to more shit like Lifecoach's drama and I wouldn't want to deal with that if I were Blizzard, either.
Still, if JUG is any indication only about ten cards in the whole set will be playable in six months so maybe they can just kill it off and forget it happened.
Post by: thegoatgod_pan on April 14, 2018, 04:16:49 pm
Also it is basically all the sadistic pleasure of a millstone deck, which is nice since Blizzard completely erradicated those.
Post by: Darkmere on April 14, 2018, 06:33:57 pm
My freebies were
Other than that, the legendaries look kinda meh to me apart from Genn, Baku, and a couple other novelties here and there. I might just craft Baku and complete some wild decks I've had my eye on for a while.
I blame Jopax and his Toast link for getting me back in, for whatever that's worth. You monster.
Post by: Criptfeind on April 14, 2018, 08:59:21 pm
Personally I'm hoping shudderwock gets nerfed just cuz I managed to open it in a pack. :P
Post by: Jopax on April 15, 2018, 03:56:12 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 15, 2018, 07:19:28 am
We'll have to see, shudder shaman is a combo deck after all, traditionally the weakest decks at the start of an expansion. It might sputter out to aggro and eventually let other decks get refined and eventually a balanced meta be shaped, but making such a big splash on day 1 probably isn't a good sign. People are citing the currently totally inadequate stats on it's win rate to show it's not that good, but lists are still super in flux right now and I've certainly seen some streams of it with sickening win rates even against aggro when you've got the super defensive lists. If it's lists and play style can be refined to be good against aggro it'll be super bad and need a nerf for sure, and even if it's good enough to turn the meta into aggro+shaman that's not really a good thing either.
Personally I'm hoping shudderwock gets nerfed just cuz I managed to open it in a pack. :P
i'll be surprised if it ends up being a serious deck. the only reason it's big now is because nobody knows what to build because they lost 3 sets and gained 1 new one. even several classic decks that should have still been around, like exodia/freeze mage, don't work anymore. (ice block gone)
the only other obvious decks to build are like, Odd Aggro Paladin and No Spell Mage. shudderwock is like a worse freeze mage.
Post by: Darkmere on April 15, 2018, 07:32:18 pm
Post by: Kagus on April 16, 2018, 06:50:32 am
Because if it's the former, it seems to an untrained eye that you could convert Grumble with, like, a pot of madness, get him killed on your turn controlling him and then basically neuter the Shudderwock. Sure, you still have to survive the initial drawing and then clear the board of a bunch of 6/6s, but that at least is possible. Whereas them getting however many 1-mana Shudderwocks placed back into their hand is considerably less manageable.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 16, 2018, 07:40:44 am
Hey, so, from someone who doesn't actually play HS (and thus doesn't know the cards)... Do converted minions go to your graveyard or the graveyard of the player who originally drew the card?
Because if it's the former, it seems to an untrained eye that you could convert Grumble with, like, a pot of madness, get him killed on your turn controlling him and then basically neuter the Shudderwock. Sure, you still have to survive the initial drawing and then clear the board of a bunch of 6/6s, but that at least is possible. Whereas them getting however many 1-mana Shudderwocks placed back into their hand is considerably less manageable.
things always go to the graveyard of the side theyre on when they die, even if it's something temporary, like shadow madness
but your idea doesn't work, because the Grumble already did the battlecry, so shudderwock will use it no matter what. shudderwock doesn't care what happened to the creature after its battlecry.
also, there's no need to "neuter" the shudderwock with some elaborate play. the way to beat shudderwock is to just win before the shaman can pull off an elaborate, 5-card, 2 turn combo. which, unsurprisingly, isn't that difficult.
it's exactly like playing against an pre-time warp freeze mage, where you had to break his ice block and be ready to kill him before he could set himself up for an alex turn + 15 damage the next turn.
Post by: Jopax on April 16, 2018, 08:51:52 am
Seems that the main choices of this season will be either aggro pally or cubelock, neither of which seem too appealing tbh.
Post by: Darkmere on April 16, 2018, 11:18:32 am
Baku paladin is a grotesque mockery of the old Dudes decks though. They used to be a bunch of really neat combo pieces that you could tailor to suit your needs, but that was a long time ago.
Re: Shudderwock. I actually like the idea of the card, just not the combo with grumble for the stated animation concerns. If they fix the animation time I'd be tempted to craft one just to make a C'thun control shaman for nostalgia's sake.
Post by: Strongpoint on April 17, 2018, 06:24:21 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 17, 2018, 08:57:10 am
I hope they'll nerf doomguards into rush making cubelocks much more manageable by other control decks.
i'd be really surprised if that ever happened.
Post by: Strongpoint on April 18, 2018, 02:01:40 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 18, 2018, 02:26:53 pm
Why not? Blizzard loves to nerf classic cards and doomguard is a very powerful card. It is a better leeroy for any kind of aggro warlock deck and now it is also good in slow warlocks.
It's good in aggro because you're dumping your hand as fast as you can anyway. But it's only good in slow warlock decks because of Skull of Gul'dan and Possessed Lackey.
Post by: Darkmere on April 18, 2018, 04:31:45 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 19, 2018, 08:05:33 am
Blizzard likes removing classic cards that will destroy entire decks. Doomguard isn't on the same level as ice block or warleader.
Warsong Commander hooooooooo
Post by: Jopax on April 25, 2018, 04:36:08 am
Sadly, by rank 16 I'm playing netdecked odd aggro pallies almost every game, so I think this is as far as it'll go for now, just had a streak of 4 of the fuckers, barely won two and the others were disgusting floods of dudes that kept getting buffed by shit as soon as there were 3 or more of them out.
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 25, 2018, 10:22:38 am
naturally next queue was a kingsbane rogue who, while generally slow and bad, meant my anti-cube tech was pretty useless.
Post by: Jopax on April 25, 2018, 03:09:23 pm
Post by: Darkmere on April 25, 2018, 11:13:45 pm
Gave up after 3 or 4, switched to the cubelock deck I was avoiding. Streaked from 25 to 20/3* with like two losses. I tried to be nice, but you just can't.
Any discussion about this on the normal or wild reddits will get aggressively downvoted. So people are defending this shit and really think the game should be based on who can draw the shittiest mana cheat before turn 5.
I guess the game's doomed then. Another expansion or two of this and people will start rioting. I hope.
Post by: Teneb on April 26, 2018, 07:56:03 am
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 26, 2018, 07:57:15 am
Post by: Darkmere on April 26, 2018, 01:17:57 pm
Servers are down. You can't start a monster hunt run, or play a friend, or do dungeon runs at all.
Is this where I use the small indie company meme?
Post by: Criptfeind on April 26, 2018, 01:45:49 pm
That said, I would describe it as less day 1 of monster hunt and more day 141 of dungeon runs. Which I feel bad saying a little bit because it's good content, just good content I played to death 4 months ago.
Post by: Darkmere on April 26, 2018, 02:16:07 pm
EDIT: Apparently the servers keep getting taken down for hotfixes. If you play as Tess you can auto-win vs a boss on turn 1 or 2 by getting infinite moonfires. I dream of a wild future where they actually have a QA team for this kind of shit.
Post by: Criptfeind on April 26, 2018, 07:58:28 pm
Post by: ZeroGravitas on April 26, 2018, 08:21:59 pm
It's working now. Looks like the same issues as dungeon run had, i.e. you can't actually prepare for anything and it's RNG whether or not you get that one boss who auto-fucks you and basically negates your whole deck.
EDIT: Apparently the servers keep getting taken down for hotfixes. If you play as Tess you can auto-win vs a boss on turn 1 or 2 by getting infinite moonfires. I dream of a wild future where they actually have a QA team for this kind of shit.
oh it's actually extremely hilarious and good. i don't know if they needed to nerf Tess's hero power, but there is some amazing stuff even in its current state. but you have to plan it out, it's not just automatic.
and it's not "moonfires" - it's "small rocks" :)
again, dunno if there was some earlier, more broken part to this, but currently, tess's hero power is "discover a class spell cast this game." if none have been cast, you discover a non-class spell, "A Small Rock" - 0 mana, 1 damage (way better than moonfire, obvi).
tess also has a special loot card she can get - a 3 mana minion that gains spell damage every time you cast a spell. you can make the connection. of course, it only works until ANY class spell has been cast, then you can't get any more small rocks.
(oh, except on that boss that has "Passive Hero Power: all spells have Echo", lol)
Post by: Darkmere on May 16, 2018, 12:20:15 pm
https://playhearthstone.com/en-us/blog/21758133
Positive change to the game accompanied by deafening, petulant screeching from people who think it's a great idea for huge piles of stats to drop on turn 5. Because fuck midrange decks in an entire format I guess. Looking forward to dusting all of that bs and getting back to Reno decks.
Post by: xaritscin on July 09, 2018, 01:12:58 am
1. Odd Mage is an interesting deck, at first it doesnt seems like you can pull anything without the even cards like polymorph, fireblast and the like but using some secrets and stat increasing cards apart of some battlecry minions you can get (ironically) even against most decks as long as you get to put your minions.
2. Mill Druid gotta be the weirdest deck i've seen, but it seems balanced to be honest, as long as you take care of killing the drawing card and you dont extend too long you can win by chipping slowly. the hardest part is dealing with the taunt cards but i guess it cant be helped, so many taunts for druid isnt fun at all. less so taking in account Hadronox exists.
3. the adventure is cool, i havent won (Infinite Toki was the highest boss i got thrown against) but i like how they built the playable heroes. Darius Crowley seems a bit weak tho, i mean, the cannon gameplay is cool but there doesnt seem much you can do with those.
that's all so far, gotta get me more card packs to see what's new. now that i think about it, did they implement Even Decks too?
Post by: xaritscin on July 10, 2018, 01:02:35 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH0wacpNuDQ
people were already theorizing something about Netherstorm but no one seemed to think about Area 52 or anything engineering related there, well surprise madafaka!
Post by: Strongpoint on July 13, 2018, 07:13:46 am
Giving druids a card that gives them 2 full mana for one mana is an absurd idea. Hello Master Oakhearts and Ultimate infestations on turn 5
Post by: xaritscin on July 13, 2018, 12:26:03 pm
i dont like the direction of Druid gameplay atm but i dont see Biology Project doing much unless the enemy can chain the mana spam cards properly. and even then, the worst that can happen is that he summons a big minion that i could remove by having top decked a Polymorph/Hex or something like that.
EDIT:
i like the synergy between Baku and the Hunter cards. outside of secrets and a few classic hunter minions most of the cards for hunter use odd numbers in mana cost so you can get a more or less working deck while getting the upgrade hero power.
my only complain is the low damage. 2 to 3 isnt as much of an improvement over the other classes. it would still take 10 turns for me to face kill someone and that's a very rare situation nowadays taking in account there's more classes getting big heals and armor.
i basically have to try and burst down the enemy health as much as i can until i have pulled enough minions to set up lethal and that's difficulty to make due to taunt cards and low health/damage from hunter minions at the early game.
anyways, Odd Hunter is my new favourite deck, gonna check how high i can get in the ladder.
Post by: Darkmere on July 13, 2018, 01:44:57 pm
Small-time buccaneer, corridor creeper, stuff like that.
Just wait.
Post by: Strongpoint on July 14, 2018, 03:16:50 am
the card also gives mana to the oponent tho. i would say its pretty balanced compared to the stuff that has been released in past expansions like Spreading Plague, Ultimate Infestation and Jade Idol or the large amount of taunt minions and the armor stacking.Sure it does give mana to the opponent. But druids opponent don't build their deck around having more mana, especially aggro decks. Your odd hunter will run out of cards very fast if your opponent gives you 2 mana on turn 1, while he'll get access to his taunts and healing much earlier
Quote
I remember everyone pissed their pants over some random card in early reveals when the real game-ruiner was some completely ignored card in the final dump.Sure, many cards were ignored. Many cards were overvalued. But this one is like patches or ultimate infestation. It is immediately oblivious that it is very powerful. It easily fits in existing druid decks.
Post by: Darkmere on August 07, 2018, 11:27:26 pm
However...
There is a certain perverse pleasure in overrunning your opponent with a growing army of larger and larger pink bunnies on pogo sticks. Trying to play "control rogue" to GET to that point makes my brain hurt, though.
Post by: Jopax on August 08, 2018, 02:25:09 am
Think I'm gonna stick to my quest pally for the time being, wait for the dungeon run mode to come out probably since it seems mostly the same deck types are going to be meta for the time being, which ain't particularly fun.
Post by: MrRoboto75 on August 08, 2018, 11:18:46 am