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Author Topic: Funerary rites  (Read 2597 times)

SixOfSpades

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Funerary rites
« on: September 04, 2017, 01:45:41 am »

One possible way of adding a lot of flavor to Fort mode (most likely as part of the Religion arc) would be to diversify funeral practices. During worldgen, each civilization could be randomly assigned their own set of approved ways of treating the dead. For extra depth, each civ might have their own opinions of how honorable / shameful various methods are, and some rites might be reserved for certain castes / religions / etc. Note that some of the options are more appropriate for invaders / criminals / undead than for respectable citizens. No civilization will know all of these practices (especially the ones that require large bodies of water or magma, or huge trees), but all civs will practice at least some of them.

For greater diversity potential, I've divided this into sections. Pick one from each list (as applicable), and mix & match for variety!

1. Preparing the Body: What is done with the deceased?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

2. Dressing the Body: What does it wear?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

3. The Container: What is the body stored in / on?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

4. Grave Goods: What additional objects / creatures accompany the deceased into the beyond?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

5. The Method Itself:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

6. The Funeral Itself: Where do friends & family gather to pay their respects to the deceased?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

7. The Procession: What happens while the body is moved to its final resting place?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

8. The Leftovers: If there are any remains remaining, what to do with them?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Along with each civilization randomly choosing different customs, there could be race-based tendencies as well, so that dwarves would be far more likely to use earth- or magma-oriented rituals than, say, elves, who would have their own, probably tree- or air-based practices. This would be most visible in forts with sizable visitor populations, so that as your dwarves form a solemn funeral procession, weeping and playing a dirge as they follow a stone sarcophagus being wheeled down to the catacombs, they might cross paths with a party of elves singing and laughing as they prepare to bury one of their own, bundled into a cloth bag with a sapling sticking out of it.

There could even be further ramifications added beyond what's listed above--for example, civs might develop certain music / dances / foods that are only appropriate for funerals. Body position might be taken into account: A culture might decide that bodies should be buried/entombed sitting down, or facing a certain direction. (Both of which are currently impossible to see, and would therefore take place entirely in the player's imagination--so there's almost nothing to code!) There could be even more complex practices, like some civs developing the tradition of taking a few locks of hair from the deceased, and incorporating them into garments worn by their children. The potential for depth is vast, it's only a question of how deep is too deep; at what point will players cease to notice, and appreciate, Toady's labors.

What would I, as a player, expect to see / be expected to do?
   As the game currently stands, each dwarf expects to have a designated tomb, which must meet certain standards of size / monetary worth in order to match the dwarf's social rank and sense of self-importance. In this new expansion, the "C"ivilizations menu would provide much greater detail about your home civ, including a sub-menu about funerary practices. Expect to see statements like:
"It is quite acceptable for invaders to be stripped naked, thrown into a mass grave, and buried, with no further care given to them."
"An honorable treatment for soldiers who fall in battle is to be immured inside a wall they died protecting."
"To bury a baron or count without a scepter is considered a slight--but for a duke or king, it is a gross insult."
"All forms of cannibalism are strictly forbidden, but body parts of sentient beings may be used to fertilize farmland."
"Followers of Uzol (deity of mountains, volcanoes, & fire) greatly desire to have their bodies consumed by fire or magma."
"Craftsdwarves who have attained the rank of Master or higher expect to have their own burial mound, not a flush grave."
   Examining an individual dwarf, you will be able to see the general status of their living / burial arrangements, and see how satisfied they are with same. This is just like the current game, except in the new system, if the dwarf is dissatisfied with their arrangements, they will spell out precisely why, starting with their most important grievance first--as each desire is fulfilled, their "needs" will grow more trivial. Expect to see things like:
"Rakust wants to be entombed in a stone pot, and is angry that no tomb area has been designated yet."
"Rakust wants to be entombed in a stone pot, and is annoyed that no such pots have been made."
"Rakust wants to be entombed in a stone pot, and is disappointed that no pot has been assigned as his."
"Rakust would like to be entombed holding a copper ladle, and is disappointed that he does not have one of his own."
These thoughts can also bleed over into the dwarf's main Emotions screen, particularly if they are unusually concerned with their own mortality.
   Then, when somebody dies, an executor will be appointed--usually a friend or relative, otherwise it defaults to the fort's manager. They will Conduct Meeting with the mayor, going over funeral arrangements. If the deceased was a criminal (particularly if they were executed), the sheriff will also attend. Together, they will agree on those matters that do not require the player's approval, and deliver a summary of same, things like:
"Rakust's body will be washed, dressed in his best clothes, and adorned with his silver necklace and a horse bone figurine of him raising one of his masterwork fish stews. He will lie in his bed while we hold a wake for him at his Kitchen and adjoining dining hall--those who wish to personally pay their respects may do so. Afterward, we will carry the bed to the stone pot assigned to him, with lamentation from his parents and siblings. Rakust will be placed into the pot to the chanting of prayers to Momuz the Wooden Bone, and sealed away for eternity. We will then carry the bed back to his room, which will be left untouched until it is spiritually cleansed seven days later."
Then, the player will be presented with any matters that do require attention, such as:
"Rakust wanted to be laid to rest with a copper ladle--we could use the one from Kitchen 4, although that would hurt that Kitchen's productivity. May we do so [Y / N]?" N
"All right, Rakust's sister Inod will gift her bronze carving knife to be used instead."
"Rakust wanted his cat Ezum to accompany him, should the cat be sacrificed to follow her master [Y / N]?" Y
"Good, and there is room in the pot for both of them."
The meeting ends, and events proceed as planned. The actual handling of the body is undertaken by Hospital staff--unless the fort has a god of death with enough loyal worshipers to take over the task instead. Mourners attending the memorial service or procession are given the Attend Funeral job, although they can multitask and Eat / Drink during it. Other affairs that may require the player's approval are whether any adamantine items should be given to the dead, which crown the queen should be buried in, whether the "mourners" at the "procession" of an executed criminal should be allowed to kick the body as it is dragged past them, what sort of ossuary should be fashioned to house the bones of the deceased, etc. The player will also have to designate, if they have not already done so, the final resting place of the dead: This could mean assigning them an already-built burial receptacle, selecting (or building) a good cliff / tree / platform for sky burials, channeling out a grave and using the Burrow menu to assign the deceased to it, or selecting an appropriately prominent spot for the body (or its receptacle) to be displayed. In other words, the micromanagement involved is scarcely any more than what is already required.

   Visitors are a special case: If there are a significant number of people from another civilization present in your fort, they will share with you all pertinent information--in the "C" menu, you will be able to view the details of their civ just as well as your own. If there are only 1 or 2 survivors from that civ present, they may not know everything about their own civ (I figure, every person knows 75% of their own culture, and you keep adding people until the random overlap covers everything), but they'll at least know what constitutes a decent burial. If the deceased was the only representative of their civ to visit your fort, then you have to either go by what they mentioned in passing at the tavern, or just give them what would be a proper burial in your culture.

   Important Note: The player is NOT actually required to abide by the requirements of most prescribed methods. Suppose a duke dies, and he wanted his own burial mound. "Too bad," says the player, "everybody in my fort gets a tomb," and sticks the duke in a coffin located in the old quarry, just like everyone else. The game doesn't check--the description of the funerary method is for flavor, and if the player doesn't want flavor, the player doesn't have to taste. As long as the duke's actual resting place is surrounded by enough wealth to keep him happy, he will not rise as a ghost--the player will probably have to designate a *fake* burial mound, with some statues in it, to keep the duke pacified while he's alive, but he doesn't have to actually bury anybody there . . . he can just re-assign the mound to the duke's successor, and everybody's appeased. The most intricate aspects of the funeral (dressing the body, grave goods, the memorial service/profession, processes like mummification) happen almost entirely without input from the player.

Thoughts?
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Azerty

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Re: Funerary rites
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2017, 04:25:18 am »

Thoughts?

Only one thing to say, related both to the quality and the quantity of informations and propositions: great ideas, and a good base to start.
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NEANDERTHAL

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Re: Funerary rites
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2017, 02:10:31 pm »

The features this would implement should be generalized. Perhaps a general "rituals" section should be implemented, with specific groups dling different rituals for different items - i.e. Followers of likot dye and mash their food before eating it, members of the Logger civ wash and drain the corpses of nobles before burning them, etc.
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kontako

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Re: Funerary rites
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2017, 08:29:03 pm »

I don't mind designating a tomb with various grave goods, and I agree it should be optional.
Quote
Then, when somebody dies, an executor will be appointed--usually a friend or relative, otherwise it defaults to the fort's manager.
With the body preparation and funeral rites, shouldn't that be a job for the temple at which the dwarf worships? - Providing a job for the dancers and musicians of the temple.
Similar to how we stock hospitals with thread, crutches and soap, the temples should be stocked with cloth, oils and herbs to prepare the corpse for burial. The head priest should then mandate various goods common place in such ceremonies.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Funerary rites
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2017, 07:23:00 am »

Deconstructing and simplifying the original OP which goes over many different methods at once, a general uniform mourning process or festivity held inside temples like kontako touches upon would be a good medium to carry out this because randomly generating funeral processions can be unclear. (such as the unclearness about dancing customs) Maybe there should be instead generally applied rites without explicit civilisation tags that diversify it.

Bring the body in, family gets summoned to a funeral they have a cry over it and go over any stories (specific eulogy story, dwarf skims its memory) then the body is taken away to be buried. Dwarves attending get mostly neutral or relaxing thoughts.

  • Considering their status, is this a person of holy notoriety? in which case the existing pre-requisites of stripping & dicing them up apply since each part is considered a artifact and then would be suitable for pedestals either around the temple or elsewhere.
  • As far as rites are concerned, simple tags like [MUMMIFIES_DEAD] can determine if something additional like cloth is required for a much longer procedure, else a simple gathering for a funeral that makes dwarves feel better afterwards less devastating over seeing the corpse of a loved one (leading to red text very bad thoughts normally)
  • Butchering them in funeral rites is probably a lot more dignified way to exhibit cannibalism than carrying them to the butchers shop, and elves could probably commence funeral = butchery rites on their enemies for the specific circumstances using [EATS_DEAD] then checks its ethics to see if there are any.
> Dwarves could probably eat their pets if [EATS_DEAD] or [DEAD_TROPHIES] was added but not other dwarves to highlight the difference.
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kontako

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Re: Funerary rites
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2017, 08:08:32 am »

I recall seeing in the myth gen demo something about souls reuniting with their creator under specific circumstances (living under correct morals I assume, although I don't think its out of the scope to include funerary rites as a requirement).

I'm not sure on how the tag system works ingame, although perhaps they should be inherited by followers of a specific deity rather than through their civilisation. Granted, it does seem strange for a single civilisation to practice several different types of ceremonies on the same subject.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Funerary rites
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2017, 08:26:23 am »

Maybe it could meet halfway and gods have a generalized recipient method for each civilization rather than the individual and the god just reads & adapts the civilisation tag with how its supposed to behave (or how the civ intends to honor the god).
  • Reminding ourselves of how the egyptians believed they would be trialled (pretty common theme) in the afterlife so the most wealthy brought their possessions & magical charms through before they were faced with their gods or rejected and thrown into damnation. The [BUILDS_OUTDOOR_TOMBS] civilisation tag for instance makes them lean towards building tombs, hence making rooms with suitable preparations.
The god could carry the tags but that'd mean that certain gods might have either redundant or outlawed (which might add more depth to "evil" or forbidden gods) connotations within civilisations. A death god that requires a celebratory sentient sacrifice and cannibalism might not be essentially popular to commemorate in life or death just by generating those tags itself.
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Ggobs

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Re: Funerary rites
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2017, 01:04:52 pm »

I'd also like to add being reimbursed/offerings for taking in bodies when the economy arc is added--creating necropolises.
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FantasticDorf

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Re: Funerary rites
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2017, 02:35:03 pm »

Sounds like a fun scenario, be the civilisations main dead body dumping ground, breed your starting 7 dwarves because the only migrants you are going to get will be carts of dead people. Try not to go insane with the sight of corpses stacked high or let them get re-animated.
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mate888

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Re: Funerary rites
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2017, 10:05:25 pm »

PTW
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SixOfSpades

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Re: Funerary rites
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2017, 02:29:29 pm »

The features this would implement should be generalized. Perhaps a general "rituals" section should be implemented,
That makes some sense, though I not sure how it would be applied. Weddings, for example, involve preparing, dressing, and ornamenting the participants, and then there's a gathering, and usually a procession followed by another gathering with food & drink. So maybe rituals should be coded as a string of sub-events.


With the body preparation and funeral rites, shouldn't that be a job for the temple at which the dwarf worships?
The deceased's church being involved is all right--unless the civ has a god of death. I'd say the hierarchy should be:
1. Clergy of the local god whose sphere includes death (that's basically their whole deal)
2. Hospital workers (the washing, binding, and sewing of bodies is basically their whole deal)
3. Clergy of the deceased's preferred god.
4. Friends and family of the deceased should come [l]last[/u], and be excluded if they happen to be part of earlier positions on this list . . . unless they've done it so many times that preparing the corpse of their best friend really wouldn't have any negative effects on them.

I'd say that ideally, handling the dead should require at least three people, to ensure that it's done quickly & the body doesn't sit around rotting. I'd support the creation of an Undertaker profession . . . perhaps renamed to Mortician or Enbalmer if the dwarf is also crosstrained in Suturer or Tanner, respectively. (Although if Taxidermist becomes a thing, it and Enbalmer do the same job, and therefore should be the same name?)


. . . simplifying the original OP which goes over many different methods at once, a general uniform mourning process . . . would be a good medium to carry out this because randomly generating funeral processions can be unclear. Maybe there should be instead generally applied rites without explicit civilisation tags that diversify it.
Okay, that's one way of looking at it. I personally think that diversity is much sexier (since you're likely to get a different kind of funeral in every new fort you play), but more of a flavor is still flavor, even if it's all the same flavor.

Quote
Considering their status, is this a person of holy notoriety? in which case the existing pre-requisites of stripping & dicing them up apply since each part is considered a artifact and then would be suitable for pedestals either around the temple or elsewhere.
This would make sense (to me) only if the dismemberment occurred before death. The "left lower leg of Vucar Lobsterpaddled" hearkens back to a historical event, but "finely minced liver of Vucar Lobsterpaddled, Portion #17" does not. And even then, I'd think that people would prefer to see their saints whole, not piecemeal.

Quote
Butchering them in funeral rites is probably a lot more dignified way to exhibit cannibalism than carrying them to the butchers shop
If you've concerned about dwarves having bad thoughts just seeing the corpse of their loved one, how do you think they're going to feel about seeing them literally cut open and carved up right in front of them?

Quote
elves could probably commence funeral = butchery rites on their enemies for the specific circumstances using [EATS_DEAD] then checks its ethics to see if there are any.
Yes. Not all cannibalism is ritual cannibalism. (I think that's what you meant?)


Granted, it does seem strange for a single civilisation to practice several different types of ceremonies on the same subject.
Well, humans do. Granted, there are cultures where one method is extremely predominant (such as cremation in places where there simply isn't enough open land to bury everybody, like Japan or India), but many societies today have quite a broad selection as far as funerary options go.
But that wasn't really where I was going with this suggestion. I figured that any one civilization would choose one general path, with options that were all closely related to one another--such as Tomb for most citizens, Immuration for soldiers, and possibly Mummification -> Tomb for the nobles.
Maybe it could meet halfway and gods have a generalized recipient method for each civilization rather than the individual and the god just reads & adapts the civilisation tag with how its supposed to behave (or how the civ intends to honor the god).
Yes, precisely.
Devout followers of a church aligned with a particular means of disposal, however, might choose an entirely different practice--a priest of a god whose spheres included lakes, shores, and rivers would be very likely to choose an aquatic means of repose, and indeed the entire temple could be dug directly over a cavern lake, with a pitting drawbridge for funerals. A temple to the god of fire could have an en-suite crematorium, etc. But they would probably be the exception: For dwarves who aren't strong believers in those particular deities, perhaps there could be a non-denominational funeral home, conducting services in the "default" method used by most of the fort.


Quote
The god could carry the tags but that'd mean that certain gods might have either redundant or outlawed (which might add more depth to "evil" or forbidden gods) connotations within civilisations. A death god that requires a celebratory sentient sacrifice and cannibalism might not be essentially popular to commemorate in life or death just by generating those tags itself.
That is a very interesting idea . . . that deserves to be expanded on in its own thread. :)

I've been thinking about the "Executor & mayor Conduct Meeting" screen, and as an addition to the screen where they get the player's permission for questionable things (like burying anything really valuable), each permission should be a slider, showing how much the funeral guests want a certain thing to be done. They might express a 41% desire that the body of a criminal should be stripped naked, and a 63% desire to have it bound with rope, etc. You, the player, make your Y/N decisions based on that, and depending on how well you matched popular demand, the guests will get happier/unhappier thoughts from the procedure. Extremely dissatisfied guests might even indulge in some clandestine tomb-robbing, breaking in to add or subtract grave goods, or dignify/malign the corpse.
Priests overseeing the ceremony might also have their own demands (and therefore should probably be involved in that meeting too): They will most likely want sacrifices, such as expensive objects destroyed (which the mayor won't like), pieces of the deceased's body cut off & destroyed (which the executor won't like), and/or living creatures destroyed (which you probably won't like). There will probably be a different set of permission sliders for them, and extremely dissatisfied priests might refuse to conduct that service, refuse to perform ANY services for a given time, or theoretically start a holy schism, which is WAAY beyond the scope of this thread.


I'd also like to add being reimbursed/offerings for taking in bodies when the economy arc is added--creating necropolises.
Sounds like a fun scenario, be the civilisations main dead body dumping ground, breed your starting 7 dwarves because the only migrants you are going to get will be carts of dead people. Try not to go insane with the sight of corpses stacked high or let them get re-animated.
Well, the fort would logically become the cemetery for the local hill-dwarves, as it would almost certainly provide the best defense from necromancers. It might also attract corpses from nearby humans & elves, for the same reason. But I don't think other dwarves would go for it--there would have to be some really good reason to take your grandma's corpse on a nine-day journey through hydra territory. Maybe if your fort were built on some very holy site for pilgrimage--for example, maybe it's the only volcano on the continent, so every follower of Uzol in your civ dreams of being thrown into your volcano, and your chosen embark scenario specifically reflects that.
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kontako

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Re: Funerary rites
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2017, 07:36:45 pm »

With the body preparation and funeral rites, shouldn't that be a job for the temple at which the dwarf worships?
The deceased's church being involved is all right--unless the civ has a god of death. I'd say the hierarchy should be:
1. Clergy of the local god whose sphere includes death (that's basically their whole deal)
2. Hospital workers (the washing, binding, and sewing of bodies is basically their whole deal)
3. Clergy of the deceased's preferred god.
4. Friends and family of the deceased should come last, and be excluded if they happen to be part of earlier positions on this list . . . unless they've done it so many times that preparing the corpse of their best friend really wouldn't have any negative effects on them.

I'd say that ideally, handling the dead should require at least three people, to ensure that it's done quickly & the body doesn't sit around rotting. I'd support the creation of an Undertaker profession . . . perhaps renamed to Mortician or Enbalmer if the dwarf is also crosstrained in Suturer or Tanner, respectively. (Although if Taxidermist becomes a thing, it and Enbalmer do the same job, and therefore should be the same name?)

Yeah I tend to agree with this, based on the fortress' infrastructure different tiers should be available.
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