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Dwarf Fortress => DF Announcements => Topic started by: Toady One on July 05, 2016, 04:33:30 pm

Title: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Toady One on July 05, 2016, 04:33:30 pm
Download (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves) (Click refresh on your browser if it doesn't show up)

Here are the first official 64-bit releases!  This would not be possible without help from our community -- you can view the exciting and sometimes late-night discussion over in the 0.43.04 release thread if you want to see how the cake was baked.  This release should also make worlds generated with the same seed more consistent, and it has a few other minor fixes we managed to sneak in.

New stuff
   (*) 64-bit support, pulling the game from the distant past into the previous decade

Major bug fixes
   (*) Fixed problem with artistic skill assignment causing world histories to diverge
   (*) Fixed problem with worldgen trade causing world histories to diverge

Other bug fixes/tweaks
   (*) Stopped babies/children from competing in w.g. events
   (*) Made gorlaks able to open doors, stopped desizing of their heads
   (*) Fixed some mem leaks
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Vaughn on July 05, 2016, 04:38:20 pm
Quote from: Toady One on July 05, 2016, 04:33:30 pm
Made gorlaks able to open doors
Yes.

Also, congratulations on 64-bit release.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Khym Chanur on July 05, 2016, 04:49:07 pm
Toady, I still get the "CXXABI_X.Y.Z" error with libs/libstdc++.so.6, and I have to remove it to get things to run.  Also, I don't need the libs/libgcc_s.so.1 file.

Also, you can close bug #2688 (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=2688) now, since that was a 32 bit problem.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Passover on July 05, 2016, 04:55:02 pm
I'm super happy to see how Toady interacts with community!
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: ORCACommander on July 05, 2016, 04:56:16 pm
god damn it every time i update a new one occurs
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Khym Chanur on July 05, 2016, 05:04:17 pm
I ran worldgen again under valgrind, and all the warnings that came up during woldgen are gone (looks like no false positives due to -O2), but while saving the generated world it gave some warnings about uninitialized bytes:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 05, 2016, 05:08:24 pm
Gorlaks! Yeah!!
Thanks Toady.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Iamblichos on July 05, 2016, 05:14:51 pm
Awesome!  Thanks Toady!
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Fleeting Frames on July 05, 2016, 05:44:15 pm
64 bit consistent world gens?

Even if I've found surprising uses for 4000+ year world gens (Humans take a long while to get out from initial pocket of 100 savagery surroundings, for instance.), I cannot comprehend a world that has it as vital part. I can imagine such existing, but I can't actually imagine those that require fully sized worlds with longest histories.

That means it is time to start thinking the eventual goal and component parts.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Max™ on July 05, 2016, 05:48:52 pm
Oh Em Gee Dood!

You fixed the damn "data/art/mouse.png not found" thing! No more having to edit those lines with vim and keep .bmp copies around!
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Amperzand on July 05, 2016, 06:42:01 pm
Wooo!
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Aklyon on July 05, 2016, 06:57:29 pm
Huzzah, 64-bit DF!
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Itnetlolor on July 05, 2016, 08:46:16 pm
Now to find ways to maximize our 64-bit exploits.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: waveclaw on July 05, 2016, 09:54:02 pm
Thank you Toady.  May you profit greatly from your efforts.

I like the very clean license statement in the readme.txt documentation.   I'm not sure it would meet approval to build and host packages on the Open Build Service but I feel safe providing nosrc RPMs at least.  I don't feel good hosting packages elsewhere in general with the effort that the brother Adams have put in here.  I feel Bay12Games earned the money they get.  And probably need a marketing budget.  So having to go visit the Toad for your epic mincart computer slash genocide slash frustration simulator is a good thing.  You have to pass by all the tip jars, you see..  But the OBS is nice because you can build a package for pretty much everything but Genotoo Linux in one project.  And not go any more barmy than usual.  (Well, usual for someone who obsesses over tiny glyphs of dwarves with suicidal mining tendancies.)

Quote from: Max™ on July 05, 2016, 05:48:52 pm
Oh Em Gee Dood!

You fixed the damn "data/art/mouse.png not found" thing! No more having to edit those lines with vim and keep .bmp copies around!

This made testing the 64-bit version much easier. But, all my collected crash data is now joyfully worthless since there is a new release!  It also means that the binary patches won't be needed anymore.  Huzza!

Unlike the early 64-bit Linux port this one doesn't die a few years into a map with all options maxed out.  The early verison would die if resident memory crossed 4.3Gb of RAM.  The 32-bit version would grind to a halt and crash at 3.4-ish after about a days or so.

This version flys! A large map with 768 years takes about 2.5 hours, mostly in the latter years.  Before it would take 4.5 hours to get to 1050 if the map didn't die. A 250 year map generates in minutes even when the event counter passes 750,000. Looks like it takes about 2 seconds and 1Mb per year for the 750k to 1M range of events on a 80k population with 65k dead. This is on my 4GHz (overclocked) i7-6700K CPU in openSUSE 42.1 with default scheduling (no tricks with nice.)   Keeps one full core maxed to the hilt but crossed that reserved memory with no issue.  .  I did notice that this version spawned less processes than the previous test release, too.

Of course the real test will be striking the Earth.  Onward, for Dwarfkind!
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: They Got Leader on July 05, 2016, 10:07:59 pm
If we were using the 64 bit beta release of 43.04, can we migrate saves over with mild to no issues?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Random_Dragon on July 05, 2016, 11:53:39 pm
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller on July 05, 2016, 05:08:24 pm
Gorlaks! Yeah!!
Thanks Toady.

Good thing that you mentioned it, prompting me to comment and tag the issue. o3o
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: jecowa on July 06, 2016, 12:15:16 am
I always thought that Gorlaks must be too short to properly manipulate the door handles.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Telgin on July 06, 2016, 12:29:36 am
Quote from: They Got Leader on July 05, 2016, 10:07:59 pm
If we were using the 64 bit beta release of 43.04, can we migrate saves over with mild to no issues?

I haven't noticed any problems yet at least, so I believe so.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Random_Dragon on July 06, 2016, 12:59:54 am
Quote from: jecowa on July 06, 2016, 12:15:16 am
I always thought that Gorlaks must be too short to properly manipulate the door handles.

And I will eat the next person to suggest that. :V
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Random_Dragon on July 06, 2016, 01:04:02 am
I am however somewhat irked that Toady doesn't include the 32-bit version on the same page as the other versions. Eh. Also, all of a sudden we got a fuckton of shiny new DLL files.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: jecowa on July 06, 2016, 01:17:19 am
Most people don't know what 64-bit and 32-bit are. Or the difference between an SDL and Legacy version. I like the change. This will also allow him to get a better idea of how many are still requiring 32-bit versions.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Random_Dragon on July 06, 2016, 01:51:29 am
By way of seeing how many people bitch about it? ;w;
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Boltgun on July 06, 2016, 02:39:38 am
Good job, 64 bits looked surprisingly fast to release. All the pointers are pretty happy.

Spoiler: obligatory (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Thief^ on July 06, 2016, 10:31:21 am
There are extra dlls in the release which aren't needed:

The msvc*80 and *100 dlls are from older versions of visual studio (msvc*140 is the newest). You probably don't need the "Microsoft.VC80.CRT.MANIFEST" either, for the same reason.

You also have two versions of libtiff and libpng included. In addition, do you actually support jpeg and webm image formats? If not, you don't need those dlls either I don't think.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Random_Dragon on July 06, 2016, 12:04:06 pm
I noticed that. The 32 bit version has a fuckton of DLLs not included in prior versions, and I have no idea whether they were ever required.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Thief^ on July 06, 2016, 02:38:56 pm
The api-* DLLs are all for compatibility with Windows 7 and earlier I believe. They implement "API Sets", where certain APIs are divorced from exactly which DLL implements them, allowing easier updating/patching for MS in future. This was introduced in Windows 8, Windows 7 and XP need these "shim" DLLs to emulate API Sets as those OSs don't have built-in support.

On the plus side, because they are just shims, they are all tiny.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Random_Dragon on July 06, 2016, 02:45:23 pm
Ah, my potato computer strikes again. Nevermind the fact that just updating my redistributable fixed all problems I had last version, so this still sounds unnecessary for Windows 7.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: TheHossofMoss on July 06, 2016, 03:16:03 pm
I've merged my last fortress with this version (it was from 43.04). I've noticed nothing strange so far. Do you people think that might cause problems down the road or should I be fine?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: ChaotikDwarf on July 06, 2016, 04:44:16 pm
Quote from: Thief^ on July 06, 2016, 02:38:56 pm
The api-* DLLs are all for compatibility with Windows 7 and earlier I believe. They implement "API Sets", where certain APIs are divorced from exactly which DLL implements them, allowing easier updating/patching for MS in future. This was introduced in Windows 8, Windows 7 and XP need these "shim" DLLs to emulate API Sets as those OSs don't have built-in support.

On the plus side, because they are just shims, they are all tiny.

I seriously doubt it, since i use vs2015 currently and i don't need all that crap with any of my executables.
Also , statically linking can often give a nice boost to perf as it allows more optimizations.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Aklyon on July 06, 2016, 05:22:26 pm
So why all the extra bits then?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Random_Dragon on July 06, 2016, 05:29:53 pm
Quote from: Aklyon on July 06, 2016, 05:22:26 pm
So why all the extra bits then?

My assumption was for the sake of idiotproofing it, since the last version's thread was several pages of Toady and others trying to figure out why it abruptly borked.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Greenbane on July 06, 2016, 05:39:14 pm
Is there any advantage to 64bit support beyond being able to allocate greater amounts of RAM?

I suppose multi-core CPU support is still a ways off.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Gwolfski on July 06, 2016, 05:48:15 pm
Quote from: Greenbane on July 06, 2016, 05:39:14 pm
Is there any advantage to 64bit support beyond being able to allocate greater amounts of RAM?

I suppose multi-core CPU support is still a ways off.

Bigger, older worlds . Marginal speed upgrade.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Quietust on July 06, 2016, 06:33:13 pm
Quote from: ChaotikDwarf on July 06, 2016, 04:44:16 pm
I seriously doubt it, since i use vs2015 currently and i don't need all that crap with any of my executables.
When you install Visual Studio 2015, it installs the runtime libraries for you - if you were to try and run those programs on a system where VC2015 wasn't installed, you would need those DLLs.

Quote from: ChaotikDwarf on July 06, 2016, 04:44:16 pm
Also , statically linking can often give a nice boost to perf as it allows more optimizations.
It is also an extremely large obstacle to getting DFHack to work.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: ORCACommander on July 06, 2016, 06:56:41 pm
anyone else long for the good old days where what ever dll the ends user needed was shipped with the final products bin folder instead of having to install dozens of run times?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Cexp on July 06, 2016, 09:15:49 pm
I guess this is "expected" or at least known, but different versions (Windows/Linux) generate different worlds with the same seeds (I think the land might actually match, but the histories diverge).

I noticed when testing for speed. Disregarding the differences (since the populations and event numbers are similar), the Windows versions seems about 5% faster (for worldgen).
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: jecowa on July 06, 2016, 09:56:04 pm
Even on the same system I didn't think the same history would generate twice on two worlds with the same world gen settings and seeds.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Toady One on July 06, 2016, 10:01:54 pm
Is that still happening regularly?  I fixed two problems with it for this time and had a world regenerating properly, but it's possible these issues still exist into 43.05.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: jecowa on July 06, 2016, 10:16:53 pm
Sorry, the last time I messed with it was 0.42.06.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: They Got Leader on July 06, 2016, 10:36:08 pm
Quote from: Telgin on July 06, 2016, 12:29:36 am
Quote from: They Got Leader on July 05, 2016, 10:07:59 pm
If we were using the 64 bit beta release of 43.04, can we migrate saves over with mild to no issues?

I haven't noticed any problems yet at least, so I believe so.

I just tried it myself, and it seems to be working perfectly fine. My assumption is that because none of the RAWS were edited, the game world does not have to be remade.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: ChaotikDwarf on July 07, 2016, 02:16:53 am
Quote from: Quietust on July 06, 2016, 06:33:13 pm
Quote from: ChaotikDwarf on July 06, 2016, 04:44:16 pm
I seriously doubt it, since i use vs2015 currently and i don't need all that crap with any of my executables.
When you install Visual Studio 2015, it installs the runtime libraries for you - if you were to try and run those programs on a system where VC2015 wasn't installed, you would need those DLLs.

Quote from: ChaotikDwarf on July 06, 2016, 04:44:16 pm
Also , statically linking can often give a nice boost to perf as it allows more optimizations.
It is also an extremely large obstacle to getting DFHack to work.

Well, i have to admit that since i switched to vs2015, i didn't deploy anything  to the outer world.
I'll give it a try.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on July 07, 2016, 02:47:29 am
Quote from: They Got Leader on July 06, 2016, 10:36:08 pm
Quote from: Telgin on July 06, 2016, 12:29:36 am
Quote from: They Got Leader on July 05, 2016, 10:07:59 pm
If we were using the 64 bit beta release of 43.04, can we migrate saves over with mild to no issues?

I haven't noticed any problems yet at least, so I believe so.

I just tried it myself, and it seems to be working perfectly fine. My assumption is that because none of the RAWS were edited, the game world does not have to be remade.
Except those door opening Gorlaks. I guess that's a raw edit.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Chase on July 07, 2016, 03:03:30 am
Animal people aren't scattered through out character race selection any longer. 8)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Quietust on July 07, 2016, 06:43:42 am
Quote from: Toady One on July 06, 2016, 10:01:54 pm
Is that still happening regularly?  I fixed two problems with it for this time and had a world regenerating properly, but it's possible these issues still exist into 43.05.
World generation appears to be consistent within a single version - both 0.43.05-win32 and 0.43.05-win64 were able to generate the same world 3 times in a row, but they could not generate the same worlds as each other (i.e. 64-bit history was consistently different from 32-bit history), which suggests that there might be other problems lurking around somewhere (which seems a bit odd, given that you have to specifically ask for 64-bit variables on Windows).
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Toady One on July 07, 2016, 12:19:49 pm
Quote from: Chase on July 07, 2016, 03:03:30 am
Animal people aren't scattered through out character race selection any longer. 8)

That might just be that world -- that's supposed to happen on worlds where certain animal people get integrated into a society.

Quote from: Quietust on July 07, 2016, 06:43:42 am
World generation appears to be consistent within a single version - both 0.43.05-win32 and 0.43.05-win64 were able to generate the same world 3 times in a row, but they could not generate the same worlds as each other (i.e. 64-bit history was consistently different from 32-bit history), which suggests that there might be other problems lurking around somewhere (which seems a bit odd, given that you have to specifically ask for 64-bit variables on Windows).

Yeah, since I was incorrectly writing that off to different compiler optimizations before, maybe I should investigate.  There aren't many places where explicit 64 bit variables are used, especially in world gen, but there could be something.  Vector sizes return as 64 bit (at least, according to the thousands of warnings I got, size_t wasn't a 32 anymore), so maybe it's a conversion in some calculation with those, since those are very common.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Max™ on July 07, 2016, 12:29:53 pm
I got excited because I thought maybe the higher pointer sizes would get rid of the strength rollover (use a syndrome to give something like 1500% and +15000 directly to strength and you go from being super strong/fast to 0.099 speed) because I remembered Putnam doing the dfhack stuff to set the attributes to 2^32 -1 but it's a different cause still.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Ganondworf on July 07, 2016, 01:02:38 pm
Dear all,

could someone please explain to me what the 64-bit support does? Or point me to some place where someone else does the explaining? I'm on and off DF for at least 5 years, but I have only limited understanding of technical details, so I'm wondering how 64-bit will affect me as someone who is "just" an end user.

Yes I tried the search, but I didn't understand much except for "bigger, older worlds" :)

Nevermind, I'm blind.

Thank you very much!
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Cexp on July 07, 2016, 05:05:01 pm
One possible legitimate cause of divergence between bitness and compilers is the use of floating point numbers, which I think applies to DF.

It's very difficult / almost impossible to get the exact same results out of floats across different environments. There are some heavy handed "solutions" but I don't think they're worth it in this case.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Quietust on July 07, 2016, 07:04:08 pm
Quote from: Cexp on July 07, 2016, 05:05:01 pm
One possible legitimate cause of divergence between bitness and compilers is the use of floating point numbers, which I think applies to DF.

It's very difficult / almost impossible to get the exact same results out of floats across different environments. There are some heavy handed "solutions" but I don't think they're worth it in this case.
If you're using the same size of floating point number (32-bit "float" or 64-bit "double"), you should always get exactly the same result whether you're running 32-bit or 64-bit code.

Toady mentioned warnings about "size_t", which has just reminded me that there are data types that vary between Win32 and x64 (most of the others being pointers, which you should never be using to store values anyways).
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: mifki on July 07, 2016, 07:12:43 pm
Quote from: Quietust on July 07, 2016, 07:04:08 pm
If you're using the same size of floating point number (32-bit "float" or 64-bit "double"), you should always get exactly the same result whether you're running 32-bit or 64-bit code.

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/22710272/difference-in-floating-point-arithmetics-between-x86-and-x64
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Chase on July 07, 2016, 11:04:41 pm
New version runs great on a macbook.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Amperzand on July 07, 2016, 11:27:48 pm
Unless it was fixed, the game only runs in a buggy terminal mode with OSX El Capitan.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Chase on July 07, 2016, 11:32:48 pm
Quote from: Amperzand on July 07, 2016, 11:27:48 pm
Unless it was fixed, the game only runs in a buggy terminal mode with OSX El Capitan.

I'm not using El Captian. Forgot to mention that. I followed this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress/comments/2va09g/help_with_running_df_in_console_on_os_x/
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: tonnot98 on July 08, 2016, 01:24:39 am
128 bit when
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: dermal_plating on July 08, 2016, 04:21:41 am
Would anyone care to explain in laydwarve's terms why multi-threading will not have a great impact on fort mode performance?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 08, 2016, 05:52:32 am
Quote from: tonnot98 on July 08, 2016, 01:24:39 am
128 bit when

Probably not for a while and when the modern day markets catch up, 64 bit is modern day market standard, 128 bit is a decade or so roughly down the line despite existing in the 1990's experimentally. (though saying that, people did not expect computers to progress as fast as they have done, estimating that only the richest people in the world will own a personal one)

Right now it was estimated that computers would dramatically improve every two or so years, and that number has been recalculated lately because of hardware requirements of keeping them cool (bigger fans & costs to make resulting) so unless we develop a new heat immune way of computing so we can cram super-computer like power into them consequence free, give or take some new breakthroughs in handling the heat and the raw power of computing in general so all 128 bits are being used constructively. Its a waste to use a system that can collect information on that scale but can't store it away as effectively due to processing constraints, 64 runs within the limits of modern day computers unlike their 32bit predecessors which are more limited.

Quote from: dermal_plating on July 08, 2016, 04:21:41 am
Would anyone care to explain in laydwarve's terms why multi-threading will not have a great impact on fort mode performance?
It'd tidy stuff up into neat pretty pockets rather than going through the same channels as everything else, but you've still got to store and handle that stuff somewhere, therein lies the problem in it being a tool to tidy up, not a magic bullet to correct.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Quietust on July 08, 2016, 06:35:04 am
Quote from: mifki on July 07, 2016, 07:12:43 pm
Quote from: Quietust on July 07, 2016, 07:04:08 pm
If you're using the same size of floating point number (32-bit "float" or 64-bit "double"), you should always get exactly the same result whether you're running 32-bit or 64-bit code.

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/22710272/difference-in-floating-point-arithmetics-between-x86-and-x64
You learn something new every day - for those too lazy to click the link, 64-bit code uses SSE instructions (which have separate versions for 32-bit "float" and 64-bit "double") for floating point arithmetic, while 32-bit code uses FPU instructions (which upconvert all floats to 80-bit "long double", which you can't actually use directly on Windows) because of the possibility that SSE might not be available.

Apparently, though, newer versions of MSVC use (or can be told to use) SSE in 32-bit code as well to make things stay consistent, though I'm not sure if that's an option in the old version of GCC Toady's using.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: greycat on July 08, 2016, 07:07:35 am
Quote from: dermal_plating on July 08, 2016, 04:21:41 am
Would anyone care to explain in laydwarve's terms why multi-threading will not have a great impact on fort mode performance?

Right now, any multi-threading that you see is just the libraries automatically delegating a few internal tasks to separate threads.  This may help a tiny little bit, but won't have a dramatic effect on overall speed.  The game itself has not been rewritten to multi-thread, and probably won't be any time soon.  Doing so is an enormous project.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 08, 2016, 07:35:18 am
Quote from: dermal_plating on July 08, 2016, 04:21:41 am
Would anyone care to explain in laydwarve's terms why multi-threading will not have a great impact on fort mode performance?
I think a thorough threaded implementation of DF could add a lot of speed, but it would also require a huge amount of work.

One reason an application might not get much out of multi threading would be if its "memory bound", i.e. its speed is not constrained by the computation speed of the CPU, but the speed at which data can be shuffled to and from memory. If a single lane congested road leads to a factory, adding additional assembly halls might do nothing to speed up production because the trucks carrying the material to the factory are already arriving as fast as the (memory) road network allows. Given that the 32-> 64 bit conversion is driven partially by an increasing demand for memory, it's not unreasonable to assume memory band width might be a larger bottle neck than CPU speed.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Dirst on July 08, 2016, 11:23:01 am
The obvious solution is to require 16GB of L2 cache.  Too bad that doesn't exist.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: tonnot98 on July 08, 2016, 12:55:11 pm
Quote from: FantasticDorf on July 08, 2016, 05:52:32 am
Quote from: tonnot98 on July 08, 2016, 01:24:39 am
128 bit when

Probably not for a while and when the modern day markets catch up,
I wasn't expecting such a well-written answer to a joke question, thanks.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Dirst on July 08, 2016, 12:59:30 pm
Quote from: tonnot98 on July 08, 2016, 12:55:11 pm
Quote from: FantasticDorf on July 08, 2016, 05:52:32 am
Quote from: tonnot98 on July 08, 2016, 01:24:39 am
128 bit when

Probably not for a while and when the modern day markets catch up,
I wasn't expecting such a well-written answer to a joke question, thanks.
I actually worked on 128-bit machines in the mid90s. They were vastly overpowered for the application, your tax dollars at work.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Väinämöinen on July 08, 2016, 03:12:27 pm
Toady could implement the multi core support little by little:

Like multithreading first the water flow on its own thread and rest of the stuff on its own

Then Graphics on its own thread, AI etc..
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Chase on July 08, 2016, 03:43:30 pm
Quote from: Väinämöinen on July 08, 2016, 03:12:27 pm
Toady could implement the multi core support little by little:

Like multithreading first the water flow on its own thread and rest of the stuff on its own

Then Graphics on its own thread, AI etc..

That's probably the plan. He said he's working on it more than we probably think.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Zorbeltuss on July 08, 2016, 05:24:45 pm
Quote from: Quietust on July 08, 2016, 06:35:04 am
Apparently, though, newer versions of MSVC use (or can be told to use) SSE in 32-bit code as well to make things stay consistent, though I'm not sure if that's an option in the old version of GCC Toady's using.
GCC has had that option at least since about 2002 for SSE2 and below, I accidentally compiled my Gentoo setup with it on an AMD machine back then which was how I found that out (AMD got SSE with the 64 bit machines which was two years later).

/Zorbeltuss
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 08, 2016, 05:49:23 pm
Quote from: Chase on July 08, 2016, 03:43:30 pm
Quote from: Väinämöinen on July 08, 2016, 03:12:27 pm
Toady could implement the multi core support little by little:

Like multithreading first the water flow on its own thread and rest of the stuff on its own

Then Graphics on its own thread, AI etc..

That's probably the plan. He said he's working on it more than we probably think.

The problem is not really to write the code so things run in different threads, but to ensure they're not stepping on each others toes while doing so, i.e. protecting all the data stores involved so they handle parallel access from multiple threads, as well as ensuring things are not processed out of order (e.g. flying creature in one thread, going upwards in a shaft, cave-in falling downwards. Without checks the upwards movement thread may check if the tile upwards is free, the cave-in thread will check if then next tile downwards contains anything to smash, both move to the same tile, but without colliding since the tile was free while checking. A worse case is a wear checking thread that meets a piece of clothing worn by a dorf being atom smashed. The dorfs is smashed, and all items worn are destroyed. At the same time the wear checking thread looks in its list for the next item to apply wear to, and goes to the -Pig Tail Sock- Urist wore before getting smashed. The sock no longer exists, so either wear is applied to a "random" piece of memory, which might now be used for something completely different, or the pointer now refers to memory not owned by the application, resulting in immediate program termination). You can get a lot of interesting bugs that are almost impossible to reproduce.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: dermal_plating on July 08, 2016, 09:01:12 pm
Thank you for the explanation of multi threading.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Khym Chanur on July 08, 2016, 09:14:13 pm
Quote from: PatrikLundell on July 08, 2016, 05:49:23 pm
The problem is not really to write the code so things run in different threads, but to ensure they're not stepping on each others toes while doing so, i.e. protecting all the data stores involved so they handle parallel access from multiple threads, as well as ensuring things are not processed out of order

This is hard enough to do if a program is engineered from the ground up to be multi-threaded.  If you have a program which started out single-threaded and try to retrofit in multi-threading, it becomes even more difficult.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Amperzand on July 08, 2016, 10:15:41 pm
Quote from: Dirst on July 08, 2016, 12:59:30 pm
Quote from: tonnot98 on July 08, 2016, 12:55:11 pm
Quote from: FantasticDorf on July 08, 2016, 05:52:32 am
Quote from: tonnot98 on July 08, 2016, 01:24:39 am
128 bit when

Probably not for a while and when the modern day markets catch up,
I wasn't expecting such a well-written answer to a joke question, thanks.
I actually worked on 128-bit machines in the mid90s. They were vastly overpowered for the application, your tax dollars at work.

Just when I start to get jaded with the Twelfth Bay, something neat like this shows up. :V That is damn cool, yo.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Chase on July 08, 2016, 10:48:01 pm
Rooms seem to auto-adjust and farmers try and automatically fertilize.



Nevermind, rooms don't auto-adjust. Apologies.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 09, 2016, 04:03:23 am
Quote from: Chase on July 08, 2016, 10:48:01 pm
Rooms seem to auto-adjust and farmers try and automatically fertilize.

Mmm? Secret changes? Are you sure about that? I'll have to go and check a few things

I wouldn't expect that to be the case though it'd certainly be welcome.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Rumrusher on July 09, 2016, 10:49:58 am
kinda hope  the new update for 32bit players kinda have a side folder to hold all those dlls.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Random_Dragon on July 09, 2016, 10:53:41 am
Quote from: Rumrusher on July 09, 2016, 10:49:58 am
kinda hope  the new update for 32bit players kinda have a side folder to hold all those dlls.

Fuck yes. There are way too many of these stupid things to be placed in the main folder. Bad enough Toady booted the 32bit version off the main page. :V
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: xordae on July 09, 2016, 11:19:46 am
Got two crashes from a savegame I started around 43.02ish. This is the 43.05 x64 version.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: lethosor on July 09, 2016, 11:50:21 am
Quote from: Rumrusher on July 09, 2016, 10:49:58 am
kinda hope  the new update for 32bit players kinda have a side folder to hold all those dlls.
It's not 32-bit-specific, and assuming you're talking about Windows, there's not really anywhere else they can go unless Toady makes a separate launcher for DF (like on Linux/OS X), which might not work, or you install all of those libraries system-wide.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: jecowa on July 09, 2016, 12:02:42 pm
All the libraries of the Mac version go into a "libs" folder.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: The Scout on July 09, 2016, 12:12:35 pm
I've set the leave page button to spacebar since I started playing but I'm finding screens that have the filter always on, causing me to have to force-quit.
One example is the Traits list when setting conditions in the Job Manager.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: waveclaw on July 09, 2016, 01:12:08 pm
Quote from: lethosor on July 09, 2016, 11:50:21 am
Quote from: Rumrusher on July 09, 2016, 10:49:58 am
kinda hope  the new update for 32bit players kinda have a side folder to hold all those dlls.
unless Toady makes a separate launcher for DF (like on Linux/OS X), which might not work, or you install all of those libraries system-wide.
When making a package for Debian (Unbutun), RedHat (Fedora) or other Linux distributions of software (e.g. openSuSE) the maintainer usually has to write a new launcher.  The DLLs (.so files) are supposed to go in specific locations according to the Linux Standards Base.  To handle that requires the lanucher be aware of where to look for those libraries.

Sorting all this out is one of the small time sinks for building a package based on pre-compiled software like DwarfFortress.  For instance, Toady ships libraries in /libs. So splitting the game into a dwaffortress-bin.rpm and a dwarffortress-libs.rpm is either going to be recommended or required by many build services that can be used. On top of that, shipping libstdc++ and libgcc pisses off package checking tools.

Many Mac applications ship a lot of libraries in their own package so Toady's layout is the norm there.

Of the top of my head, I'm not sure what registry changes one would have to do to get Windows 7, 8 or 10 to properly handle a binary that needed to  sort the DLLs to their own location.  Most the options available are for compile-time (see https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms682586(v=vs.85).aspx (https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms682586(v=vs.85).aspx).)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: lethosor on July 09, 2016, 01:39:43 pm
Yes, I'm aware that the Mac and Linux versions keep their libraries in the "libs" folder. That's why I referred to the launcher script on those platforms, which set up the library search paths properly.
It sounds like something similar might be possible on Windows, but I don't know if it would work, and if it does, it would confuse people who've been used to launching the executable directly.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: jecowa on July 09, 2016, 02:21:21 pm
Oh, I understand now. When I heard "launcher" I was imagining something like the WoW launcher or Minecraft launcher that does things like update the game for you and launch it.

To avoid confusion for Windows users, maybe call the launcher "dflaunch.exe" and rename the actual Dwarf Fortress binary to something more obscure like "gamedata.exe". I'm not sure if you're allowed to remove the ".exe" extension or not, but I think you can set it to be hidden.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: lethosor on July 09, 2016, 04:05:04 pm
Yeah, I meant "launcher script", sorry.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Rafal99 on July 10, 2016, 04:40:35 am
I wonder if there is any point in maintaining the (Small) versions of DF releases.
The difference is only about ~2MB for both Legacy and SDL versions, and seems very small to be worth it.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Rafal99 on July 10, 2016, 05:45:52 am
Quote from: Quietust on July 08, 2016, 06:35:04 am
Quote from: mifki on July 07, 2016, 07:12:43 pm
Quote from: Quietust on July 07, 2016, 07:04:08 pm
If you're using the same size of floating point number (32-bit "float" or 64-bit "double"), you should always get exactly the same result whether you're running 32-bit or 64-bit code.

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/22710272/difference-in-floating-point-arithmetics-between-x86-and-x64
You learn something new every day - for those too lazy to click the link, 64-bit code uses SSE instructions (which have separate versions for 32-bit "float" and 64-bit "double") for floating point arithmetic, while 32-bit code uses FPU instructions (which upconvert all floats to 80-bit "long double", which you can't actually use directly on Windows) because of the possibility that SSE might not be available.

Apparently, though, newer versions of MSVC use (or can be told to use) SSE in 32-bit code as well to make things stay consistent, though I'm not sure if that's an option in the old version of GCC Toady's using.


If it proves to be unsolvable using only compiler settings, there are libraries for it. One I know of is STandalone REproducible FLOating-Point library (STREFLOP <- google it).
It was successfully used in one of the open-source projects I have been following, and allowed deteterministic calculations between both 32bit and 64bit Windows and Linux.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Rumrusher on July 10, 2016, 06:40:16 am
I was mostly slightly tiffed over the having to scroll all the way down to the Exe file and wondering if there a reason dll has to be out next to the exe.
that said it's not like it's a big deal to the point where toady rewrites the handlers to stuff all the dlls into a windows folder because I realized that would make more problems than solutions.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Fleeting Frames on July 10, 2016, 08:43:45 am
Quote from: Rafal99 on July 10, 2016, 04:40:35 am
I wonder if there is any point in maintaining the (Small) versions of DF releases.
The difference is only about ~2MB for both Legacy and SDL versions, and seems very small to be worth it.
Keeping releasing them separately? Yes. They'll have to be tested; it is quite possible that something unintended such as unusable stone axes might have snuck in. Testing catching those thing in a small list of things to double-check saves much time later, even if making a thread and compiling and hosting the release are not entirely without cost.

Besides, just because bugfixes, complete rewrites of old code and adjustments to existing stuff are not generally exactly big increases in filesize, doesn't mean they can't have substantial impact. And I know you know I know you know that - I like granularity of choice in picking which meteor crater to visit, though.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: lethosor on July 10, 2016, 08:49:56 am
I'm not really sure what you mean, but in case anyone isn't sure what the small release is, it's the normal release without the music included. If Toady creates it by making a copy of the full release and removing the sound files, practically no testing should be needed besides making sure DF can start up without sound.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Fleeting Frames on July 10, 2016, 09:27:26 am
Consider me humbled >_> My apologies, I thought Rafal99 meant the 0.01 version number changes.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Random_Dragon on July 10, 2016, 10:24:49 am
Quote from: Rumrusher on July 10, 2016, 06:40:16 am
I was mostly slightly tiffed over the having to scroll all the way down to the Exe file and wondering if there a reason dll has to be out next to the exe.
that said it's not like it's a big deal to the point where toady rewrites the handlers to stuff all the dlls into a windows folder because I realized that would make more problems than solutions.

Agreed, it's kind of a brand new annoyance. -w-
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Rumrusher on July 10, 2016, 10:27:37 am
Quote from: Random_Dragon on July 10, 2016, 10:24:49 am
Quote from: Rumrusher on July 10, 2016, 06:40:16 am
I was mostly slightly tiffed over the having to scroll all the way down to the Exe file and wondering if there a reason dll has to be out next to the exe.
that said it's not like it's a big deal to the point where toady rewrites the handlers to stuff all the dlls into a windows folder because I realized that would make more problems than solutions.

Agreed, it's kind of a brand new annoyance. -w-
I got over it as I kinda made uber trees that some how crash the game and leave these weird holes in the sky if you manage to cut one down.
(http://www.truimagz.com/host/rumrusher/folder1/usuable-thats-a-new-tiletype.png)
all so I can stick trees into ocean biome so you can use them as platforms.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Random_Dragon on July 10, 2016, 10:42:58 am
Ah, physics fuckery. Perfect cure to any bad mood. o4o
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: TheBiggerFish on July 11, 2016, 12:50:55 pm
Woo!  PTW.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Eric Blank on July 11, 2016, 02:00:40 pm
My only complaint is that my poor little laptop can't actually handle anything anywhere near a 10x10 embark :P
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Random_Dragon on July 11, 2016, 02:03:42 pm
Now I wonder how bad it'd be if I tried to run a max-sized embark on my laptop... :V
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: imperator on July 11, 2016, 05:48:44 pm
Nothing too serious here, but my Pentium i5 8MB notebook pc (Windows 10) is giving me a program "Not Responding" message for each year that a new world is being generated.  Eventually it goes away and world generation continues to the next year.  The previous version didn't do this.

My desktop Pentium i7 (Windows 7) is not having this issue.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: lethosor on July 11, 2016, 06:25:44 pm
That's pretty normal, since DF only updates the UI once a year during worldgen. The difference in behavior is very likely due to the different Windows versions you're using.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Snafu on July 11, 2016, 08:30:15 pm
Quote from: imperator on July 11, 2016, 05:48:44 pm
Nothing too serious here, but my Pentium i5 8MB notebook pc (Windows 10) is giving me a program "Not Responding" message for each year that a new world is being generated.  Eventually it goes away and world generation continues to the next year.  The previous version didn't do this.

My desktop Pentium i7 (Windows 7) is not having this issue.
IME the "Not Responding" msg usually means the program (DF in this case) is writing/caching to/from disc. Increasing RAM or installing a faster drive may improve things a little, but it's mostly CPU/drive data-pipeline-bound, /I think/

IANAP!
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: lethosor on July 11, 2016, 10:52:42 pm
Well, the reason Windows thinks DF isn't responding is because it isn't updating the UI very frequently during worldgen. There's hardly any disk I/O happening during worldgen, besides possibly swapping if you don't have enough memory (although swapping would make the situation worse and cause the message to appear more often).
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Dirst on July 11, 2016, 11:13:32 pm
Quote from: lethosor on July 11, 2016, 10:52:42 pm
Well, the reason Windows thinks DF isn't responding is because it isn't updating the UI very frequently during worldgen. There's hardly any disk I/O happening during worldgen, besides possibly swapping if you don't have enough memory (although swapping would make the situation worse and cause the message to appear more often).
And this is why Windows reports the program as "not responding" rather than crashed or hung.  DF really isn't "responding" but that doesn't mean it isn't "working."
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Amperzand on July 12, 2016, 02:23:39 am
I notice it does that on my slow mac as well. That's a good explanation for it.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: imperator on July 12, 2016, 03:34:20 pm
Quote from: lethosor on July 11, 2016, 10:52:42 pm
Well, the reason Windows thinks DF isn't responding is because it isn't updating the UI very frequently during worldgen. There's hardly any disk I/O happening during worldgen, besides possibly swapping if you don't have enough memory (although swapping would make the situation worse and cause the message to appear more often).

After dealing with this new version further on the small notebook pc, it appears to only slow down when it's running on battery power.  Apparently the Windows 10 or newer model notebooks slow down memory and CPU usage when it is on battery only.  Now that I've run it with the AC adapter it's running full team ahead and certainly faster than 32 bit words with FPS for a medium sized fort around 70-80fps.  So as far as I'm concerned everything is working perfectly.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Thief^ on July 12, 2016, 05:18:47 pm
Running slower on battery is not new in Windows 10, pretty sure you can configure it in the power profiles in 7 if not earlier.

Also if you switch your power profile you might get your performance back.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Maltavius on July 16, 2016, 06:45:47 am
With 64-bit now working, can we get larger world maps? Eg. bigger than 257x257 ?
Also I'd very much like an Legends Export that exports a map on the Town-scale level.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Max™ on July 16, 2016, 11:56:57 am
Like the site map exports but for the whole world? That would be HUGE, we'd probably need to have df export stuff in .png instead of .bmp first, or is there a way to have it do that which I'm just too stupid to notice?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Random_Dragon on July 16, 2016, 01:16:49 pm
That would be a lot less hassle if it was divided up into segments instead of dumping the WHOLE map into one image.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Max™ on July 18, 2016, 01:36:28 am
Hmmm, gonna test if this keeps going, and it could just be the crazy site (collapsing magma+icewalls melting) but it is at 5.3 GB and keeps rising by over a GB each time I build more.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Random_Dragon on July 18, 2016, 01:46:14 am
That would be Maxese for "halp my PC is on fire" I suspect.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Fleeting Frames on July 18, 2016, 01:59:30 am
Test with smaller site and see if you still have that memory leak?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Max™ on July 18, 2016, 02:02:58 am
Not quite that bad, it froze after I got to 5.3 (out of 6.7 used, 8 max) and kwin tripped/reset itself.
(http://i.imgur.com/IET3CJ3.png)

Just got back up to 5.3 GB and I'm going to save after this time gets back to the screen. It isn't actually laggy while not adding GB at a time of usage, interestingly.

Well, had to turn the whole computer off when it took minutes to move the mouse cursor across the screen after it got up to 6.3 GB on df, 7.54 GB total.

Yeah, figured it out, the site was causing animal populations to remain loaded and then more populations come on the map, who then remain, and then more, etc.

Cyan masterwork symbols are my sense creature icons, you may note several are blinking because there are multiple on many tiles, and the cavern layer above this one is also filling up.
(http://i.imgur.com/H3afUeF.png)

Made a bug report as I've had this happen a few times now, still not exactly sure what makes it happen beyond some creatures becoming histfigs and making new histfigs by interacting with them, but it's a savekiller for sure: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=9925 so there that is.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 18, 2016, 07:47:22 am
Its always been a case in that any creature that can accrue sentient kills (sometimes non-sentient, but that's a necessity of whether two conflicting and usually [SPECIFIC_FOOD] predator/prey animals come into play and can spawn on the map simultaneously or by means of worldgen/adventure mode real-time shenanigans) to gain a coveted historical figure status. I don't know if gaining a historical status overrides the natural 1 group in - 1 group out behavior of natural populations.

My personal theory is it's giant bats travelling between layers (finnicky air pathing too, bats are EXTREMELY poplar historical figs as well as the subterranean biome being large enough to support the meager local populations, so that collaboratively there are a lot of giant bats) and killing creatures that they find. Its not that the bats themselves are overpowered, as much as the [LARGE_ROAMING] (despite the [LARGE_PREDATOR] that keeps only 1 example of the map for that biome at a time) dictates that they move about as other cavern wildlife usually from one end to the other, naturally drawing them into conflict if they choose a different destination to leave while another group of cavern creatures on another level are also spawning/active.

Alternatively it could be creatures falling into inescapable caverns from above via climbing/dodging behaviours without a means to get out (or conversely the creatures are waiting for you to open up a path so that they can escape the map via the surface as the nearest pathfinding alternative.)

EDIT - Whoops, sorry i didn't realize you meant that you were talking about a adventurer site as opposed to a 'fortress embark' site. My apologies.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Max™ on July 18, 2016, 01:37:13 pm
Couldn't be those, there isn't time for anything to happen, I'm literally building a camp while magma collapses around it, so after each work period ends there are a couple of ticks with fluid movement and anything around might be able to aim an attack, but nothing has time to kill anything else. Things don't even have time to fall before the magma collapse finishes.

First time I had this happen it was a bajillion yaks and peregrine falcon people and zombie polar bears and zombie ice wolves

The specific trigger seems to be the site getting named, I hadn't actually put that connection until earlier when I was trying a new build and it was all dandy until I named the site and then the lag/memory munching started up and I started accumulating inhabitants.

No prob, it's not the same type of bug as I'd expect in fort mode is all, since I am literally racing against the magma collapse.
(http://i.imgur.com/FUNu3OB.png)
Which makes it weirder when I look around after focusing on getting what I can manage to build in place, and suddenly there's hordes of wildlife lagging me up.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Pvt. Pirate on July 20, 2016, 06:40:48 am
now waiting for the 32bit LNP of this release :)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: jecowa on July 20, 2016, 01:42:02 pm
Are you still using XP or Vista or something?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: FantasticDorf on July 20, 2016, 02:09:27 pm
Quote from: jecowa on July 20, 2016, 01:42:02 pm
Are you still using XP or Vista or something?

Some of us prefer quality elven homegrown *literally* computer engineering because its cheap and ethical, its not my fault if my computer catches fire.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Snafu on July 20, 2016, 07:21:42 pm
"Elven"? "Grown"? You want to get down with the mica, man.. pure silicon is the way to go.. ;)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Libash_Thunderhead on July 21, 2016, 11:49:08 pm
I just installed windows 10 yesterday and backed-up my old 32bit system just in case. ::)
I have only 2.5GB of ram.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Pvt. Pirate on July 24, 2016, 07:00:03 am
Still on XP - and i'd rather gp for linux than ever install anything beyond win7.
Ans win7 i'd have to buy, but i won't give Microsoft another dime and if i had foreseen how things would come, i wouldn't have ever bought winXP either.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: BlueBuilding on July 24, 2016, 03:31:35 pm
32-Bit to 64-Bit, congrats!
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Thief^ on July 24, 2016, 11:48:55 pm
Quote from: Pvt. Pirate on July 24, 2016, 07:00:03 am
Still on XP - and i'd rather gp for linux than ever install anything beyond win7.
Ans win7 i'd have to buy, but i won't give Microsoft another dime and if i had foreseen how things would come, i wouldn't have ever bought winXP either.
Install Linux then. XP is a virus honeypot these days.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Pvt. Pirate on July 25, 2016, 03:37:38 am
Quote from: Thief^ on July 24, 2016, 11:48:55 pm
Quote from: Pvt. Pirate on July 24, 2016, 07:00:03 am
Still on XP - and i'd rather gp for linux than ever install anything beyond win7.
Ans win7 i'd have to buy, but i won't give Microsoft another dime and if i had foreseen how things would come, i wouldn't have ever bought winXP either.
Install Linux then. XP is a virus honeypot these days.
i would - if i could arrange this without data loss.
also i would need to find a huge amount of alternative software and a way to play at least half of my games.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Thief^ on July 25, 2016, 04:19:34 am
If it's only XP era games then the majority of them will work perfectly fine under Wine: https://appdb.winehq.org/ (if they don't just have a Linux version).
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Pvt. Pirate on July 26, 2016, 02:18:22 am
Quote from: Thief^ on July 25, 2016, 04:19:34 am
If it's only XP era games then the majority of them will work perfectly fine under Wine: https://appdb.winehq.org/ (if they don't just have a Linux version).
some games (from 2003, namely Vietcong) my brother couldn't get to work in wine.
also some other games strictly require directX9 and won't work without it.
i got so many tips for this everywhere - i don't want to hijack this forum for that too :)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: jecowa on July 28, 2016, 11:30:45 pm
It looks like "libfmodex.dylib" was updated since Dwarf Fortress v0.43.04. I was just a little curious about this change.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: lethosor on July 29, 2016, 05:50:01 pm
It had to be to support 64-bit DF.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: jecowa on July 29, 2016, 06:30:18 pm
Oh, okay. I was thinking that 0.43.04 was also 64-bit, but that was just a test version.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: PatrikLundell on July 30, 2016, 03:55:25 am
0.43.04 was 32 bit, but compiled with the new compiler required for 64 bit. As far as I understand, the compiler change happened earlier than intended due to an accidental trashing of the installation of the old one.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: lethosor on July 30, 2016, 06:34:28 am
That was just the case on Windows.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Dirst on July 30, 2016, 12:03:09 pm
Quote from: lethosor on July 30, 2016, 06:34:28 am
That was just the case on Windows.
Hard to believe, but some DF players actually use Windows ;)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Detros on August 16, 2016, 02:38:45 am
Quote from: jecowa on July 06, 2016, 12:15:16 am
I always thought that Gorlaks must be too short to properly manipulate the door handles.
Just stack them up till they reach...
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Detros on August 16, 2016, 03:00:59 am
Quote from: The Scout on July 09, 2016, 12:12:35 pm
I've set the leave page button to spacebar since I started playing but I'm finding screens that have the filter always on, causing me to have to force-quit.
One example is the Traits list when setting conditions in the Job Manager.
Like 0000060, "Changing "LEAVE SCREEN" binding from ESC to space closes when typing in orders window" (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=60)? That should have been fixed year ago. Maybe some screens didn't got the fix, please recheck and fill a report in Mantis.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: lethosor on August 16, 2016, 06:47:07 am
In that case, you should probably bind LEAVESCREEN to Esc as well.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: petela on September 23, 2016, 01:51:20 am
IMHO, this game has become easier and more boring exponentially since 0.40.xx. I think it needs less new useless features like libraries, books, taverns, etc and more bug-fixing. Bugs are piling up and latest features didn't add anything but more resource grinding and trees, lots of trees everywhere. I love this game, it just doesn't amuse me anymore. I've replayed 0.23.130.23a recently and my god, it was awesomely challenging... nowadays, unless I open the HFS, the fort goes forever with no problems at all...
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: FantasticDorf on September 23, 2016, 03:21:49 am
Quote from: petela on September 23, 2016, 01:51:20 am
IMHO, this game has become easier and more boring exponentially since 0.40.xx. I think it needs less new useless features like libraries, books, taverns, etc and more bug-fixing. Bugs are piling up and latest features didn't add anything but more resource grinding and trees, lots of trees everywhere. I love this game, it just doesn't amuse me anymore. I've replayed 0.23.130.23a recently and my god, it was awesomely challenging... nowadays, unless I open the HFS, the fort goes forever with no problems at all...

Game is what you make of it, personally i like the flavour of expanding the dwarves existance outside of work and partying, they become ever so more rounded in enjoying what little leisure time (and with race swaps the need to leisure time increases trust me, dwarves are hard working whipping boys compared to some, least dwarves dont mortally stab everyone in the bar when drunk and angry like lots of highly equipped and armed goblins do) they have, have their dinky little gods and hobbies, not to mention the elaboration of thier needs to feel on task and opinions on things.

The last few updates have been moreso about creative and artistic focus, foundation of relgion, player driven iconographical art, books as-well (including the relevant production lines and value of books) rather than hard nitty super gritty features. Taverns bring the world inside your fort connecting it to it rather than feeling like a bubble waiting to be popped by sieges and historical figures employed to live in your fortress long term or permanently.

The next update ought to be interesting, with the constant tug of war back and fro and summary refocus on artifacts of value as displayed in museums ('another useless zone you may add' but moreso much more safe and established for viewing than a stockpile) and a meager tiny baby footstep forward towards pushing dwarves to go out and get a objective or be motivated to reclaim what they see as theirs nationally (another tiny footstep towards law and warfare) not to mention speculation of scenarios. Optimistic in that regard mind, but getting moreso back on track to more political minded things.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Evans on September 23, 2016, 03:55:25 am
True that.

0.34 was cool and all, but it was more like survival lemming challenge.

Right now world and dwarves feel much more alive and with MDF siege races still provides great amount of challenge.

Petela, try Masterwork Mod and enable Jotun and Minotaur invaders and see how easy it will be.
Jotun has a caste that spits fireballs, and Minotaurs are trap avoid elven-like ambushers.

New zones, library, tavern etc and finally dorfs do more than just haul crap from one spot to another and go insane if naked.
Finally it is possible to embark on tropical ocean biome and have a fort full of naked dwarven women wearing nothing more than jewelry.
What's not to enjoy here?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: iceball3 on October 01, 2016, 06:35:54 pm
A question for Toady/anyone who can answer parts of it:Is there currently or plans for a config option to cap the RAM that DF will attempt to allocate? Mainly asking for concerns that, with the new version, the game may grind my OS to a halt if it takes too much ram.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Fleeting Frames on October 01, 2016, 08:39:44 pm
Not sure how much RAM you have, but that shouldn't be a concern if you don't do things differently. That said, I think it should start using hard disk as swap space (should you have that enabled) for DF rather than offload active OS processes, though if you have non-OS processes those might get stored to HDD before that. And remember, DF cannot use all of your CPU, so you should always be able to do something.

(You can also always download 32-bit one, of course.)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: iceball3 on October 01, 2016, 11:37:55 pm
Quote from: Fleeting Frames on October 01, 2016, 08:39:44 pm
Not sure how much RAM you have, but that shouldn't be a concern if you don't do things differently. That said, I think it should start using hard disk as swap space (should you have that enabled) for DF rather than offload active OS processes, though if you have non-OS processes those might get stored to HDD before that. And remember, DF cannot use all of your CPU, so you should always be able to do something.

(You can also always download 32-bit one, of course.)
True, I suppose.
I don't yet have the ram to make full use of 64 bit currently, anyway, and if i recall correctly the game does a pretty good job at cleaning up unneeded ramspace as info is unloaded.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Maltavius on October 03, 2016, 08:28:32 am
Quote from: iceball3 on October 01, 2016, 11:37:55 pm
Quote from: Fleeting Frames on October 01, 2016, 08:39:44 pm
Not sure how much RAM you have, but that shouldn't be a concern if you don't do things differently. That said, I think it should start using hard disk as swap space (should you have that enabled) for DF rather than offload active OS processes, though if you have non-OS processes those might get stored to HDD before that. And remember, DF cannot use all of your CPU, so you should always be able to do something.

(You can also always download 32-bit one, of course.)
True, I suppose.
I don't yet have the ram to make full use of 64 bit currently, anyway, and if i recall correctly the game does a pretty good job at cleaning up unneeded ramspace as info is unloaded.

It's your OS:s job to make sure it has enough RAM to work. I suspect you're low on RAM anyway if you even have this concern.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: lethosor on October 03, 2016, 01:55:55 pm
iceball3's concern is that the 64-bit DF build will take up enough memory to slow down their system, even though the 32-bit build did not (I assume).

I just did a very unscientific test on the title screen, and the difference in memory usage between the 64-bit and 32-bit builds of 0.43.05 is usually under 0.1 MB. In fact, the 64-bit build appears to be the one taking less. That would change once a game is loaded, of course, since some data takes up more space in memory in the 64-bit build, but I wouldn't expect it to be a huge difference. (Just because the 64-bit build can use more than 4 GB of memory doesn't mean it will, especially with forts where the 32-bit build didn't use nearly that much.)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Fleeting Frames on October 03, 2016, 02:01:00 pm
The concern makes more sense if you assume iceball3 has a cat who can open up DF and put large world to gen for 10k years, and 2GB or less RAM. In that case, they'd be treated to annoyance of having to kill the process instead of the process autocrashing with no action from them.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: lethosor on October 03, 2016, 02:35:28 pm
Yeah, as long as you stick with the same behavior between 32-bit and 64-bit DF, memory usage shouldn't be different enough to cause issues in only the 64-bit build.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Grax on October 11, 2016, 08:10:46 am
So we still have no possibility to butcher mangled corpses and other died from obstacles and traps?..
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Calidovi on October 14, 2016, 07:05:25 pm
Quote from: Grax on October 11, 2016, 08:10:46 am
So we still have no possibility to butcher mangled corpses and other died from obstacles and traps?..

I think butchery is on a similar system to necromancy.

Personally, I think it's a feature.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Pvt. Pirate on October 15, 2016, 05:52:05 am
Quote from: Grax on October 11, 2016, 08:10:46 am
So we still have no possibility to butcher mangled corpses and other died from obstacles and traps?..
most new embarks see a pile of corpses before the hunter finally decides to build the butcher's workshop and then just stands idle watching the corpses rot while his hunger grows.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: FantasticDorf on October 24, 2016, 03:53:18 pm
Quote from: Grax on October 11, 2016, 08:10:46 am
So we still have no possibility to butcher mangled corpses and other died from obstacles and traps?..

My personal advice is to attempt to cut them into smaller parts before they rot so your tanner can make use of them. You can achieve this on demand slicing action by modifying spike traps to on lever pull to begin slicing the corpse in a enclosed area because it will surely make a mess.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: vylaern on September 16, 2017, 09:42:27 am
Do you know, when is next release? This version is over 1 year old.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: lethosor on September 16, 2017, 10:42:57 am
Quote from: vylaern on September 16, 2017, 09:42:27 am
Do you know, when is next release? This version is over 1 year old.
The next release is under active development: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/
As with most releases, no firm date has been set.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Telgin on September 16, 2017, 09:35:19 pm
Toady himself has said he's shooting for October, but it's always a guessing game.  The number of things left to do was numbered, fairly small and decreasing.  He might not make October exactly, but it should be quite soon regardless.

Do note that this isn't unusual.  Minor versions are usually released pretty quickly, but include only bugfixes or small new features.  Major versions, like the one we're waiting on, routinely take more than a year.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: KittyTac on September 16, 2017, 09:51:13 pm
Quote from: Telgin on September 16, 2017, 09:35:19 pm
Toady himself has said he's shooting for October, but it's always a guessing game.  The number of things left to do was numbered, fairly small and decreasing.  He might not make October exactly, but it should be quite soon regardless.

Do note that this isn't unusual.  Minor versions are usually released pretty quickly, but include only bugfixes or small new features.  Major versions, like the one we're waiting on, routinely take more than a year.

Myth might take 2 unless Toady is very fast at it.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Mesa on September 19, 2017, 05:23:34 am
Quote from: KittyTac on September 16, 2017, 09:51:13 pm
Quote from: Telgin on September 16, 2017, 09:35:19 pm
Toady himself has said he's shooting for October, but it's always a guessing game.  The number of things left to do was numbered, fairly small and decreasing.  He might not make October exactly, but it should be quite soon regardless.

Do note that this isn't unusual.  Minor versions are usually released pretty quickly, but include only bugfixes or small new features.  Major versions, like the one we're waiting on, routinely take more than a year.

Myth might take 2 unless Toady is very fast at it.

Isn't the plan for the myth update to be split into two, even?
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 19, 2017, 06:07:34 am
Quote from: Mes on September 19, 2017, 05:23:34 am
Quote from: KittyTac on September 16, 2017, 09:51:13 pm
Quote from: Telgin on September 16, 2017, 09:35:19 pm
Toady himself has said he's shooting for October, but it's always a guessing game.  The number of things left to do was numbered, fairly small and decreasing.  He might not make October exactly, but it should be quite soon regardless.

Do note that this isn't unusual.  Minor versions are usually released pretty quickly, but include only bugfixes or small new features.  Major versions, like the one we're waiting on, routinely take more than a year.

Myth might take 2 unless Toady is very fast at it.

Isn't the plan for the myth update to be split into two, even?
Even so, there's only so much which can be split off to make a release work. When everything's connected to everything else, it becomes tricky to stop. Off-hand, interaction with alternate dimensions has been mentioned as feasible to split off (but will perhaps introduce portals through which beings from alternate dimensions can enter). Then there's the editor, which seems easy enough to put off (although Toady mentioned it seems like a pretty fun thing to do, so it might get thrown in anyhow).

So, yeah, a couple of releases but the first one might still take a couple of years. It's hard to predict. Heck "Artifacts" seemed like a relatively simple less than 1 year job, but took 15 months (assuming October release goes ahead as planned).

On Saturday it was '5-6 years from now' to get to the law & society arc (starting scenarios). So, if artifacts has 6 months of bug-fixing & suggestion updates that's still lots of room for a couple of multiple year myth-gen releases even with bug-fixing stages.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Shweebish on September 21, 2017, 06:46:38 pm
Have a new bug to report.  Actually have have had a few new ones the last few weeks.  Been trying to sign up for mantis bug tracker.  Says my name, but wont let me log in or post.  maybe password wont work, so I'm clicking for lost email.  no email, no confirmation.  You don't want me posting? cool.  If you don't care, then I don't care. 

Cant even build a stupid forum without bugs crawling through the cracks
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: Shonai_Dweller on September 21, 2017, 07:04:32 pm
Quote from: Shweebish on September 21, 2017, 06:46:38 pm
Have a new bug to report.  Actually have have had a few new ones the last few weeks.  Been trying to sign up for mantis bug tracker.  Says my name, but wont let me log in or post.  maybe password wont work, so I'm clicking for lost email.  no email, no confirmation.  You don't want me posting? cool.  If you don't care, then I don't care. 

Cant even build a stupid forum without bugs crawling through the cracks
No-one else is having trouble accessing the bug-tracker. What did the manager say when you contacted them? They're usually really helpful. Can't think what could have made you so angry.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress 0.43.05 Released
Post by: lethosor on September 22, 2017, 11:53:19 am
For one thing, this is the wrong place to post that. Also, I haven't been contacted about this; I'm not sure if other managers have. I know I had trouble registering for the bug tracker initially, and Toady was able to reset my password for me. I don't think I have the ability to do that, though.

The forums and bug tracker are separate products, neither of which are made by Toady (he just hosts them), so nobody broke the tracker just for you because they don't want you posting. It's possible that there are issues with sending emails from Mantis for some reason, but any bugs there are probably not caused by Toady.