Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: Fishbulb on December 09, 2011, 06:31:19 am
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It's the summer of 102, and Relicstorm is just getting started. This time I decided to get my clothing situation under control from the outset, so with each of the migration waves so far (including my starting seven) I used dfhack's "cleanowned all" cheat to erase all ownership of everything, then used the stocks screen to mark all my dwarves' clothing for dumping. They obediently stripped each other naked. When I reclaimed the garbage pile, they moved all their former clothing items to the closets I'd built for the purpose — shoes, cloaks, dresses, all that. Easy.
Just now I was watching my blacksmith, wondering why he wasn't forging those chains I ordered. I saw he had a "pickup equipment" job. Now, that's weird, because he's neither a miner nor a woodcutter, nor has he ever been in the military — because I haven't created a military yet.
I paused-and-zoomed and found him just coming out of the shoe closet (containing a stockpile for leather finished-goods footwear, because really, why not). I looked at his inventory and saw:
(pig tail fiber robe), Upper body
(alpaca wool trousers), Lower body
(honey badger leather shoe), Right foot
Then, as I watched him like a hawk, he went to the sock pile and put on a (giant cave spider silk sock), Right foot! He didn't claim it as his own; he just picked it up and put it on!
Is it possible that in this version (31.25, which I believe is latest-and-greatest) dwarves will in fact sometimes put on clothing!? I examined each of those items closely looking for the owned-by tag, and none of them have one. He just got sick of getting naked, went to the clothing stockpiles and got dressed! Then he went off to harvest some rope reeds.
Now, I believe a dwarf's proclivity to store-owned-item is related to the organization trait, or at least it seems that way. (My dwarves who leave their crap lying all over the damn fort all seem to have the "disorganized" or worse trait, while the ones who fastidiously fill their cabinets all have "organized" or better), so I looked at Mebzuth the Blacksmith's traits in Runesmith to see if there was a "hates being naked" trait, or a "whenever possible prefers to wear one honey badger leather shoe" trait. All I found was the mundane:
Rarely feels discouraged
Relaxed
Does not have a great aesthetic sensitivity
Prefers familiar routines
Dislikes intellectual discussions
And that's all. Nothing about "enjoys wearing clothing". He does have the "made a satisfying acquisition lately" thought at the moment, but I checked his room and his cabinet does contain a (sheep wool shoe) which is described as "Owner: Mebzuth Oddomvuthil, Blacksmith". And the job he just now finished was "Pickup equipment" and definitely not "Store owned item". The things he's got on him now aren't hauled; they're being worn.
So I went looking at my other dwarves and found pretty much what I expected: naked, naked, naked … fully dressed weaver. Seriously.
(cave spider silk sock), Right foot
(pig tail fiber shoe), Right foot
(cave spider silk sock), Left foot
(pig tail fiber shoe), Left foot
(sheep leather right glove), Right hand
(giant cave spider silk right mitten), Right hand
(sheep leather left glove), Left hand
(giant cave spider silk left mitten), Left hand
(alpaca wool cap), Head
(llama wool hood), Head
(cave spider silk dress), Upper body
(alpaca wool coat), Upper body
(giant toad leather cloak), Upper body
(blind cave bear leather trousers), Lower body
None of the items she's wearing are owned; I checked. The only thing that's remarkable about her is that she's a legendary weaver, the beneficiary of a recent mood. I saved and rolled back to the summer autosave to check her inventory and found the same thing, then I rolled back to the spring autosave and found she wasn't in the fort. She arrived with the summer migrants. Dang.
I'm going to watch this closely. I'm going to strip Mebzuth the smith naked again (by dumping all his worn items) and see what he does.
EDIT: He did it!
I went to his inventory and individually marked each of his items for dumping. While he was harvesting plants, four other dwarves came along and stripped him naked. Once those items were on the pile, I reclaimed them, and the dwarves put them in their proper closets. All good.
Mebzuth finished harvesting plants, then decided he was hungry. He grabbed the closest sun berry and took it to the dining room. Ate it. Went to the booze room and had a drink. Then while he was still carrying the booze pot, he got a "pickup equipment" job and went straight to the closet, where he found and put on that same honey badger leather right shoe (it had to have been, as I've only got one pair of those in the fort, according to my stocks screen).
My dwarves are getting dressed. I'm confused as hell by this.
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Weird.
Screens please.
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What's the weather like? Maybe if it's warm enough, they just don't give a fuck?
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Weird.
Screens please.
Sure, here's how things are right now, with my game still paused. This is Mebzuth coming out of the shoe closet, still carrying his hauled strawberry wine pot, wearing a single shoe.
(http://i.imgur.com/S0Zgc.png)
And here you can see that the shoe is worn but not owned.
(http://i.imgur.com/gqhaV.png)
What's the weather like? Maybe if it's warm enough, they just don't give a fuck?
I embarked in a warm area, mountain on one side and tropical forest on the other. But I turned weather and temperature off as is my habit soon after embarking.
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Maybe certain jobs require you to be properly clothed? o.O I mean, I know I wouldn't want to operate a forge naked..
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You have sun berries too? I thought they weren't showing up at the moment.
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Maybe certain jobs require you to be properly clothed? o.O I mean, I know I wouldn't want to operate a forge naked..
i doubt it.
i had a stark naked captain of the guard/metalsmith.
he was completely devoid of dress, only in copper armour, was frost-bitten because he didn't have clothes on, and yet he never picked up a dress.
he started crawling on the ground and then died.
took me a while too to realize i had embarked in a cold biome.
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Ah, here are perhaps some better screens.
After taking the previous pictures I unpaused. Mebzuth went to the booze room and put his strawberry wine pot away, then immediately got another pickup equipment job:
(http://i.imgur.com/JDlQx.png)
He went to the closet room, still wearing just that one shoe:
(http://i.imgur.com/maYyq.png)
There he went to the pile of dumped-and-reclaimed-but-not-yet-stored clothing and picked up some items:
(http://i.imgur.com/MkEOU.png)
After that, he went off to the forge to make the chains I ordered.
It's just weird, man. I've never seen dwarves do this before.
Maybe certain jobs require you to be properly clothed? o.O I mean, I know I wouldn't want to operate a forge naked..
That makes perfect sense … except for the part where my weaver is also wearing clothes.
(http://i.imgur.com/AVvYj.png)
Again, these items are worn but not owned.
(http://i.imgur.com/V7Qse.png)
It's just bizarre. Of the rest of my dwarves, some are naked, like these two:
(http://i.imgur.com/9zW25.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/TQSTz.png)
Others have picked up an item or two, like one of my starting-seven miners:
(http://i.imgur.com/mKiFU.png)
I have no explanation.
You have sun berries too? I thought they weren't showing up at the moment.
Not by default, but I removed the [GOOD] and [EVIL] tags from the plant raws to get around that. I've got both sun berries and sliver barbs growing wild in this embark, which is (I think) half untamed wilds and half wilderness. A cheat, but I justify it by saying I'm working around a bug.
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seeing a naked dwarf should be a bad thought
does nobody care about the innocence of all the dwarf children?
Running around all day in the presence of a thousand naked midgets
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seeing a naked dwarf should be a bad thought
does nobody care about the innocence of all the dwarf children?
Running around all day in the presence of a thousand naked midgets
The beards keep 'em decent.
This is pretty amazing. You used the dfhack function--does that mean it is theoretically possible to overcome chronic dwarf nudity? The possibilities are mindboggling. Let's weaponize it!
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Here's my so-far-not-disproved pet theory.
We know that dwarves who are wearing worn clothing will not take that clothing off and replace it with a comparable unworn, unclaimed item. The same goes, I hear but have not directly observed, for dwarves who wear an item until it completely wears away; they won't replace it and will happily run around beardclad.
But in this fort, as soon as each migrant wave came in (and this includes my Significant Seven), I dfhacked "cleanowned all" to remove ownership claims on worn items, then went to stocks and dump-designated all clothing, then (for each wave of migrants after the starters) I went to the closets and mass-un-dump-designated them, so the dwarves wouldn't run around emptying my perfectly good closets. They compliantly stripped each other naked and put the clothes on the dump pile, I reclaimed them, and they filed them away in the closets.
Which means I had dwarves who thought they should be wearing something but weren't, so they went and got some clothes to put on without claiming them.
The distinction here is that I stripped my dwarves before their clothes wore out. So maybe what's relevant is the difference between a dwarf who thinks he's supposed to be wearing something that isn't there, and a dwarf who thinks he's supposed to be wearing something but isn't sussing out the fact that it's worn out.
Of course, the other quirk is that some of my dwarves are happy to run around starkers (including my mood-legendary weaver who's wearing only sutures he got after a missed-mandate-justice-beating that snuck up on me before I could get my stockade built), while others seemingly fastidiously put on at least some clothes. Which makes me suspect there's a trait involved, but I've been too busy getting my marksdwarves up and running and killing kobold thieves to dive in and explore the correlations. Also it'd be a lotta work and I'm sooooo lazy.
Anyway, it seems like the acknowledged bug of dwarves claiming clothing items and never wearing them is more complicated by far than just "dwarves don't put stuff on ever." I have a newfound respect for Toady now, because it's clear it's not just a simple "Oh yeah, I forgot to turn 'don't be naked, you drunken idiots' on in the raws" or whatever.
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I recall reading that there was a "modesty" personality trait. Might that be part of the reason some dwarves are getting dressed or remaining naked, as well?
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I recall reading that there was a "modesty" personality trait. Might that be part of the reason some dwarves are getting dressed or remaining naked, as well?
Logical assumption but I think it refers more to their propensity to be boastful as opposed to whether or not they feel at ease being naked :)
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I suspect that this is not related to dwarf personality, but that a bug is present. Note how they only equip/wear clothes that they don't own, but store owned items in their personal closets.
Questions for Fishbulb:
- What do the naked dwarves own/have in their closets? What do the dressed/partially dressed dwarves own?
- Do you have extra, unowned clothing in stockpiles?
- What is your ECONOMY setting in d_init.txt?
- What is the military/miner/woodcutter/hunter status of the naked/dressed dwarves?
I suspect that they can't wear items that they own. Then, you can only get them to wear items that they don't own, which can't be items that they "claimed". Your use of the dfhack tool is somehow tricking them into not claiming some clothing items, and that is interesting.
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The way I see it is you used a hack to change the nature of the items in question. So it's impossible to determine whether this is the result of the hack or if this is a "normal" occurrence in DF.
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Dwarf Fortress: The only game where people will hold a logical discussion about why dwarves are putting on clothes.
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- What do the naked dwarves own/have in their closets? What do the dressed/partially dressed dwarves own?
It varies. Most of them, nothing. Some of them have claimed a sock or shoe or whatever, and of those some have moved them to their cabinets while others have left them lay.
- Do you have extra, unowned clothing in stockpiles?
Quite a lot of it actually, yes.
- What is your ECONOMY setting in d_init.txt?
Off, but my understanding was that that flag does literally nothing in the current version anyway. I could be totally wrong about that.
- What is the military/miner/woodcutter/hunter status of the naked/dressed dwarves?
No correlation on the miners and woodcutters. I have two of each, and one of each is partially clothed while the other is starkers. In other words, one miner and one woodcutter have put on some clothing while the other miner and other woodcutter haven't. Each miner and woodcutter have a pick and an axe respectively, obvi.
My military are uniformed with replace-clothing on, so I don't think that's illuminating. They're wearing what they're supposed to be wearing.
I have no hunters.
I suspect that they can't wear items that they own.
Ah, an interesting idea. I didn't look at every last dwarf, but I just skimmed around and didn't find anybody wearing anything claimed. Everything I found that was being worn was unowned. I got excited for a second when I found somebody carrying an owned item, but then I noticed it was described as "hauled" and I'd caught the dwarf doing a "store owned item" job, carrying her sheep wool robe back to his cabinet in her bedroom. So you might be on to something there; there might be some interaction between items that are owned and items which can be picked up and equipped. Maybe the wonky thing in the game is that no item can be both claimed and worn at the same time?
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I suspect that they can't wear items that they own.
Ah, an interesting idea. I didn't look at every last dwarf, but I just skimmed around and didn't find anybody wearing anything claimed. Everything I found that was being worn was unowned. I got excited for a second when I found somebody carrying an owned item, but then I noticed it was described as "hauled" and I'd caught the dwarf doing a "store owned item" job, carrying her sheep wool robe back to his cabinet in her bedroom. So you might be on to something there; there might be some interaction between items that are owned and items which can be picked up and equipped. Maybe the wonky thing in the game is that no item can be both claimed and worn at the same time?
So the ones that wear clothing do so through a "Pickup Equipment" job. Also, it doesn't appear to matter if the dwarf is hauling something at the same time.
All my dwarves at my current fort are wearing their clothing in the order lowerbody/upperbody/head/hands/feet/weapon.
Your blacksmith is wearing feet/hands.
Your weaver is wearing feet/hands/head/upperbody/lowerbody (this is the opposite order to my migrants).
If the pickup/wear order matters, perhaps you need more socks and shoes before they will think of wearing gloves or a hat.
Does that blacksmith only want to pickup and wear that specific honey badger leather shoe? Can you make the blacksmith equip a different shoe?
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Are the clothes in question the migrant clothes they arrived in? I have an inkling of a suspicion that migrant clothing may somehow be different than produced-in-site clothing.
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All my dwarves at my current fort are wearing their clothing in the order lowerbody/upperbody/head/hands/feet/weapon.
Here's something I've never known the answer to: Is there any significance to the order of the items in a dwarf's inventory list? Is it the order they put the items on? Is it just a random computer thing?
Does that blacksmith only want to pickup and wear that specific honey badger leather shoe? Can you make the blacksmith equip a different shoe?
An excellent question. Since the job that drives things is "pickup equipment" my guess — "hypothesis" we'll call it, since we seem to be doing !!SCIENCE!! now — is that it works on the same mechanic as military uniform allocation: i.e., most expensive stuff wins. I'll try to remember to test that hypothesis later.
I think my testing rig is going to be an embark someplace random but calm, with plenty of booze and meat so I don't have to do anything. I'll use the same technique: "cleanowned all", then dump all clothing, then just watch and see what happens. Since I've seen no difference between the Significant Seven and later migrants, I bet I'll be able to learn some interesting things with a test like that.
Are the clothes in question the migrant clothes they arrived in? I have an inkling of a suspicion that migrant clothing may somehow be different than produced-in-site clothing.
Oh, that's another good question. All the examples I posted before were of original migrant clothing, because I hadn't produced or looted anything else. Maybe you're right; maybe a dwarf's starting clothes are treated as equipment by the game.
Okay, modified experiment. Take a screenshot of each of the Significant Seven's starting inventory, then compare the items they put back on after stripping down (if any) to what they wore on arrival.
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does nobody care about the innocence of all the dwarf children?
Running around all day in the presence of a thousand naked midgets
It's okay, they're naked too.
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My dwarves have no choice but to be naked. I confiscate their clothes then drop them in a volcano.
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My dwarves have no choice but to be naked. I confiscate their clothes then drop them in a volcano.
Somehow I keep on reading that as "You confiscate their clothes and then drop the dwarves in a volcano"...
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I find that my Dwarves really only need shoes and socks... Anything that's facing something dangerous is either armoured or stupid, and if it's armoured, that'll protect it against the worst syndromes.
I think all Dwarves should be liberated from their encumbering clothes, have all the clothes put in a tower under lock, key and magma... And stage a robbery of epic proportions.
Huh, maybe this is how you get the naked elf wrestler fortresses...
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The way I see it is you used a hack to change the nature of the items in question. So it's impossible to determine whether this is the result of the hack or if this is a "normal" occurrence in DF.
Isn't that just a question of !!SCIENCE!!-ing it? A recreation of the circumstances described should allow us to isolate the 'trigger', no?
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/me approves
And watching the thread. I'm interested in what you guys find out :)
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the mystery of something in dwarf fortress working properly... let's get to the bottom of this! Honestly this just looks like drafted them into the military and theyre putting on clothes as part of the uniform, especially considering they aren't even claiming any clothes as owned.
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KoftheFens has been ecstatic lately. He has heard of dwarves putting on clothes lately.
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All my dwarves at my current fort are wearing their clothing in the order lowerbody/upperbody/head/hands/feet/weapon.
Here's something I've never known the answer to: Is there any significance to the order of the items in a dwarf's inventory list? Is it the order they put the items on? Is it just a random computer thing?
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It is the order they put the items on, apparently except for creatures that have just been spawned.
It could be related to the bug or fix mentioned here: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_now.html#2010-03-18
Theory - Dwarves are seeking a specific clothing item and won't put anything else on because it would be out of order. How to test this: dump the clothing off that weaver of yours, forbid all shoes, and then see what the weaver puts on. If the theory is true, he won't put on a cloak/pants/hat because he can't find any shoes.
/me approves
And watching the thread. I'm interested in what you guys find out :)
Does the cleanowned tool merely lift an "owned" flag of some sort, or does it "zero out" the identity of the owner which is stored somehow on the item? I'm wondering if a dwarf can still think that they own a piece of clothing even if it isn't flagged as such.
I think I should start to do some SCIENCE myself on this topic.
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SCIENCE results:
Loaded my current fort while using the latest dfhack. Initially, all dwarves wore whatever clothing they migrated in.
Used the "clearowned all" command and then dumped all the clothing. Once dumping was complete, unforbid clothing so it could be moved to a large stockpile.
While most dwarves moved clothing to the stockpile, or started to claim items and store them in cabinets in their rooms, only one dwarf got "pickup equipment" and put on a full set of clothing: the sole military dwarf (commander) who was not active/not on duty at the time.
I then locked a random dwarf in his room and recruited him to the military. He wouldn't get dressed in his owned clothing, but once I let him out he put on a full set of civilian clothes (but didn't claim them). Note that they do have a universally preferred order of dressing, but it doesn't stop them from skipping an item (if you forbid all shoes) to go further down the list.
So I am thinking it has something to do with the uniform system, so I enabled woodcutter on a dwarf who doesn't have it yet. He goes and puts some clothes on, but never equips an axe since we don't have any spares.
Next, I tried toggling the miner labor on a miner dwarf while the game was paused. Without dropping his pick, he put some clothes on, starting from items on his hands and then working along the order from there. He didn't equip shoes or socks, for example. I turned off mining, and he only returned the pick to the weapon stockpile. I had the (nothing was owned) clothing he was wearing dumped. He didn't grab anything else, even if I toggled his mining labor. I unforbid his dumped clothing and toggled his mining labor, and he ran to the dump to get dressed. He had easier access to unclaimed clothing in a stockpile than to the dump.
I was able to repeat the miner results with a second miner. I also suspect that the action of picking up a barrel for drinking has a similar effect to toggling the miner labor. I also note that miners are willing to use a new pick if their previous pick was taken from them and dumped.
I dumped a pig tail fiber cap from the militia commander. He wouldn't claim another cap, despite plenty of identical pig tail fiber caps or more expensive caps being availiable. He did go retrieve the specific cap that he equipped earlier in the day from the dump once I unforbid it.
Travelling backwards in time to a copy of the save file, I learned that the commander got dressed in the items that he owned before I used "clearowned all", including the specific pig tail fiber cap. A miner also was wearing an owned sheep wool hood that I had seen him equip from the dump (without claiming) in the alternate timeline.
Conclusions:
If you use "clearowned all" to confiscate and dump clothing from dwarves, they will retrieve the items that they previously wore if something triggers them into questioning their inventory, such as assigning a labor that requires a tool or assigning military duty. This means that they still have a psychic link to items despite no "owned by" displayed on the item. The dfhack tool is apparently only removing the "owned" flag without breaking said link.
Unanswered questions:
- How does damaged clothing work with this? Will they put damaged clothing back on? My fort isn't old enough.
- Does anyone ever wear clothing that they claimed and brought to their room, if the tool is used to "remove" ownership?
- Is only migrant clothing ever equipped?
- Is manufactured/goblinite/caravanite clothing ever equipped?
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I love the zaniness which is Dwarf Fortress!
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Interesting.
Hypothesis: The between a dwarf and his socks works by quantum entanglement and is thus independent from arbitrary notions of ownership or physical distance.
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Interesting.
Hypothesis: The between a dwarf and his socks works by quantum entanglement and is thus independent from arbitrary notions of ownership or physical distance.
In other words, they're soulmates. Explains why they brave sieges, dragons and beasts alike to be reunited with the socks.
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Interesting.
Hypothesis: The between a dwarf and his socks works by quantum entanglement and is thus independent from arbitrary notions of ownership or physical distance.
In other words, they're soulmates. Explains why they brave sieges, dragons and beasts alike to be reunited with the socks.
Someone once made a machine that lured Dwarves one by one to their deaths... With a single sock.
Something more sinister is afoot.
If you pardon the pun. 8)
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pun unpardoned. 50 hammer strikes to ye!
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pun unpardoned. 50 hammer strikes to ye!
Hey look over there!
It's a sock!
*Runs away*
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Ooh, look a sock- *wump wump wump wump wumpwump wump wump wump wumpwump wump wump wump wumpwump wump wump wump wumpwump wump wump wump wumpwump wump wump wump wumpwump wump wump wump wumpwump wump wump wump wumpwump wump wump wump wumpwump wump wump wump wump*