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Author Topic: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!  (Read 86526 times)

PatrikLundell

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #195 on: October 11, 2016, 04:55:31 pm »

1. Not to my knowledge. I tried to make a script for that, but that failed because exporting info and re-importing it as PSV values results in endless failures to generate the world because the elevation is too low to place peaks. The world gen elevation value for a mountain differs very significantly from the one used in a generated world.
2. Not directly, as far as I know. You can do it indirectly by changing the parameters that give rise to those features, although that won't work 100%.
3. If you want our embark to be flat you ought to make the embark tile the same height as the surrounding ones (or vice versa) to remove the gradient. Variance probably has an effect as well.
4. The good/evil square count parameters can be sort of used for this. If you make sure the areas you want to be good all form up to make one or more medium size regions you can set the medium square count to be so large all medium regions become large. Similarly you can get the single large region to be evil by setting the evil square count for large regions to 1 or above (1 results in at least one large region to be evil, and if there's only a single large region, that will be it). Savagery is painted with the world painter, and joyous wilds are good regions with high savagery, so you'd combine region trickery with painting savagery.
Also note that a region is made up all biomes of the same general type that are adjacent to each other (all forest tiles combine to a single region of joined up, regardless of whether they are taiga or tropical, for instance). Note though that just because you paint parameters to result in forest it won't necessarily become forest, as DF averages. uses orographic precipitation calculations, etc, so your intended unbroken region might be broked up by such effects.
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vjek

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #196 on: October 12, 2016, 12:35:19 am »

Dwarves only need 301+ elevation mountains to make a mountainhome.  Peaks are not required.

When painting, you can randomize everything except one thing, if you want, or several.  You can, for example, only paint elevation, and let the rest be randomized.  Just turn those ones off. (Randomize at gen) instead of Will be saved.

Fleeting Frames

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #197 on: October 12, 2016, 12:36:54 am »

1. You can use Perfect World DF, which uses random noise (or images, having been used to create earth copies for instance) for the painting - then adjust the few squares you desire to adjust.

2. You can often (though not always) change available soils and minerals in an embark without changing general layout by doing a large change in volcanism somewhere. (Mineral scarcity doesn't affect soils.)

Aquifers are strongly dependent on elevation - world with flat 299 painted height and world with flat 100 painted height will be somewhat similar, but the second one will have massive amount of aquifers, while the first will not. Of course, stone aquifers will only occur in sedimentary layers, and soil aquifers can't occur in clay - so you can create spots where there aren't any at all elevations.

Rivers flow from mountainside to lower as result of high rainfalls. This can be used to direct them like this. You can thus direct lakes to pool into grasslands/deserts (though deserts have any real rainfall of their own.)

Also, at 100-103z elevation rivers won't be generated on their own, thus also preventing lakes and oceans taking bites out of areas. Overall, the river formation with flat areas is bit erratic up to 118z in my experience. However, properly constrained - such as 104z strip of land surrounded by ocean on both sides - they'll be pretty predictably follow the direction of the land as minor river or brook.

Brooks, of course, are the smallest rivers, so decrease rainfall/mountainslopes enough to change things in an area and generate again.

(In general, lakes tend to pool on the mountainsides and edges of world, especially if you provide river support to those areas.)

Of course, specific location of the river is still pretty random at local level. You can tilt them a bit with minor changes sometimes, such as by adding a cave, which tends to change local geography more than rivers. To my knowledge, this is the extent of the change you can do without getting completely differently named rivers.

3. High volcanism areas have magma pools in caverns as more common. As long as there's no volcano the geology is unaffected - the surface of 0 and 100 volcanism embarks look the same, ignoring differing soils and plants.

5. To add to what PatrickLundall said, you can turn off oreographic preciptation to have your region be more like you painted - though it is better if it is a little larger than minimum for medium and large areas, as lakes and volcanoes can break it up.

Few tricks: all flat adjoined plains are counted as 1 region, and so are hilly ones, but hilly and flat plains are considered as different regions.

Elves won't settle on taiga, but they're considered part of a forest region.

0 savagery area with 100 savagery in 7 tile radius will put goblins into that 1 square and constrain them to it for over a millennia, provided they can't conquer another site of different civ.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 08:26:43 am by Fleeting Frames »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #198 on: October 12, 2016, 02:31:24 am »

In my attempt to feed a generated world back to world gen as PSV data I failed to find any map tile with an elevation above 200, so the inability to place a peak was only the obvious symptom of an underlying difference between generation and play world elevations.

Interesting info: I didn't know hilly grassland was pooled into different regions than flat ones. A follow on question on that is whether flat and hilly rocky wasteland are divided as well?

I've seen goblins break out of and settle in surrounding 100 savagery areas after only a number of hundreds of years, but they're slow in the few cases where they succeed. As far as I understand, civs can degrade savagery of surrounding areas and thus make them more habitable and eventually establish a settlement. There also seems to be some "natural" random savagery degradation destroying nice savage embark locations as time wears on.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #199 on: October 12, 2016, 03:27:55 am »

Breaking out seems to depend on the population pool available, and other nearby settlements further lowering it to enable it. Remember the 0-100 plains circle I did with humans? They covered even the most savage plains by year 600 (and 90s by year 150), despite covering vastly larger area. But at the same time, I've had single human hamlet stay in 100 savagery areas till ~1800.

And nah, it seems like hilly and flat rocky wastelands (desert in general, probs) are counted as same region. Incidentally, looking at the save from latitude tests, glacier and tundra are counted as different regions from both each other and their parent biomes (contrasting Taiga), and tropical and temperate are lumped together into 1 region.

PatrikLundell

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #200 on: October 12, 2016, 04:10:52 am »

The "biome" associated with a region is one of SWAMP, DESERT, FOREST, MOUNTAINS, OCEAN, LAKE, GLACIER, TUNDRA, GRASSLAND, and HILLS. The above indicates "HILLS" really means "hilly grassland", and "GRASSLAND" really means "flat grassland".
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The Grim Sleeper

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #201 on: October 14, 2016, 02:21:50 pm »

Thank you all for the good advice, but I am still struggling.
From what I've gathered: tiles in the world painter =/= embark squares. So if you are lucky, you can get 3 or 4 biomes into a 3x3 embark.
So there is a way to spawn some guaranteed goblins, but can the same be done with other races?
Are there any parameters can be used to ensure a tower near an embark site?

I am going to do a request, because I've been at this for a week, and I am no closer to getting a good 3x3 embark site. Just a shitload of civ-placement rejections.
I'm looking for an embark that has:
- a flat surface
- a magma-pipe that reaches above the top cavern layer
- sand
- clay
- flux (ideally not 50 levels down)
- iron
- featherwood
- aquifer (preferably something small with 2 z-levels)
- NO brooks or rivers
- Contact with Dwarves, Humans, Elves and Goblins
- Some ferocious trainable animals
« Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 02:50:51 pm by The Grim Sleeper »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #202 on: October 14, 2016, 04:54:15 pm »

Some answers to The Grim Sleeper's request (but no embark...):
- Embark tiles occur on the level below the world painter world tiles, that's correct, so you can't get at that level.
- Elves need non evil forest, but can tolerate fairly high savagery.
- Humans need non evil (and possibly non good as well) plains and tolerate savagery poorly.
- Dwarves need mountain/hills with a lowish savagery. Definitely non evil, possibly non good as well.
- In general, if you want civs to be placed precisely you'd make a single tile with zero savagery surrounded by 100 savagery tiles in the target biome.
- You may either set the number of civs to 5 to start with one of each, or edit the entity_defaults.txt file to set a maximum of 1 civ for particular races, but leave the others open for multiples.
- If by "tower" you mean a necro one (as opposed to a goblin one), no. You can't control their appearance or placement. Obviously, more secrets in the world means more chances for someone to discover them, but that's about it.
- I think clay is very common in badlands. A badlands/desert embark where at least one half is good provides feather trees, unless the rainfall is extremely low (0 => no vegetation, 1-2 => trees and herbs at embark, neither growing back, 3-4, herbs growing back, but not trees, 5 => sometimes trees grow back and sometimes not).
- The trainable animals complicate things, as deserts/badlands aren't ideal for that, so you'd probably need a third biome or elven imports.

I've used the strategy of generating world until I get a geography I like, typically scouted out possible embarks. I then export the parameters for the world and lock the general seed, but discard the rest to let the RNG come up with new history, civ placement (and expansion), necro towers, etc. The main problem with that strategy is that savagery can decay randomly at my chosen embarks.
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feelotraveller

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #203 on: October 14, 2016, 06:24:03 pm »

I second Patrik's advice on generating a world, finding an embark location, saving the general seed and then regenerating to get a good placement of civilizations.  Dwarfs should always be in contact. Otherwise 'contact' is generally about 30 region tiles so selection of map size and number of civilizations should bear that in mind.  Of course you probably want the goblins closer...

Iron (and flux?) will be much more common with minerals set to everywhere.  Pretty much guaranteed iron when value=100.

Clay and sand are pretty common.  If you are running 43.03 or before and find an embark which fits otherwise you could try the 'changelayer' DFHack command to get them, probably from other soil types.  My experience is limited with this.

There is also a DFHack command to place an aquifer, if I remember correctly, although I have never used it.  Turning erosion down should result in less rivers.

Featherwood can be present in any good biome with trees.  Best way I have found to increase chances of some good in an embark (without it being all good...) is to increase the first number in the good count.  This applies for small regions so tends to result in more different patches of good.  (+high savagery = joyous wilds but going for too much high savagery = lots of rejections...)

A lot of biomes potentially provide decent ferocious trainable animals but I've had good experience with tropical biomes providing more, particularly forests.  Any high savagery biome also likely has giant versions of various animals as well as allowing an extra animal group at any given time.  (Adding the last couple of bits together a joyous wilds tropical forest would satisfy a lot of what you are looking for...)

Not my area but I think longer histories also increase the chance of there being necro towers (more time for secrets to be discovered).
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The Grim Sleeper

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #204 on: October 15, 2016, 02:44:16 am »

- Elves need non evil forest, but can tolerate fairly high savagery.
- Humans need non evil (and possibly non good as well) plains and tolerate savagery poorly.
- Dwarves need mountain/hills with a lowish savagery. Definitely non evil, possibly non good as well.
- In general, if you want civs to be placed precisely you'd make a single tile with zero savagery surrounded by 100 savagery tiles in the target biome.
These are good, real good.
Do you gen with a small savage world and then manually place each Civ's spawn location, or do you gen a large map, with mostly calm conditions, and then place a large Savage hotspot around your preferred embark, with 1-tile calm slots for each race?

Clay and sand are pretty common.  If you are running 43.03 or before and find an embark which fits otherwise you could try the 'changelayer' DFHack command to get them, probably from other soil types.  My experience is limited with this.
I've used this with some success to get 3 layers of obsidian and experienced no major problems. Good tip!

There is also a DFHack command to place an aquifer, if I remember correctly, although I have never used it.  Turning erosion down should result in less rivers.
I had heard of a DFhack to remove aquifers, but not place them. Google just shows posts by sissies and elves. If there is a way to paint them, it would make things so much easier! Do you have any links with more info?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2016, 04:36:26 am by The Grim Sleeper »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #205 on: October 15, 2016, 08:43:02 am »

I've painted the whole world, both a number of 17*17s and a 33*33. I've set up a medium size mountain range in the north with a small number of calm spots for the single dwarven civ to be extincted in (I want to play dead civs).
The goblins are placed on a large plain (surrounding the dwarven mountain) made evil by setting the large evil region to 1 or above. This plain is 100% savage except for the single spot I want the goblins to spawn in (and I wanted plains to give them ogres).
I then painted a mostly savage medium region for the elves and a medium plains for the humans with medium savagery and calm starting spots. No either evil nor good medium size regions, to ensure dwarves, humans, and elves get neutral territory to start in.
The three regions were separated from each other by water so they couldn't go to war with each other (ignoring goblins attacking the doomed dwarves), and my embark was on a "water" that world gen provided with some land (sand desert) with enough generation attempts. This "water" tile is the only one on the map that gives access to all of the races (physically there is a land connection only to the goblin tower 3 tiles north, but since there are neighboring land world tiles in the elven and human regions they can reach the embark despite the physical separation by water within the world embark tile.
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The Grim Sleeper

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #206 on: October 15, 2016, 09:34:33 am »

Wow, Patrik. Impressive amount of effort. Is the result something you could and would like to share?
The goblins are placed on a large plain (surrounding the dwarven mountain) made evil by setting the large evil region to 1 or above. This plain is 100% savage except for the single spot I want the goblins to spawn in (and I wanted plains to give them ogres).
I then painted a mostly savage medium region for the elves and a medium plains for the humans with medium savagery and calm starting spots. No either evil nor good medium size regions, to ensure dwarves, humans, and elves get neutral territory to start in.
How is region size calculated? Is it just a number of tiles?

The three regions were separated from each other by water so they couldn't go to war with each other (ignoring goblins attacking the doomed dwarves), and my embark was on a "water" that world gen provided with some land (sand desert) with enough generation attempts. This "water" tile is the only one on the map that gives access to all of the races (physically there is a land connection only to the goblin tower 3 tiles north, but since there are neighboring land world tiles in the elven and human regions they can reach the embark despite the physical separation by water within the world embark tile.
I do not quite understand this. You painted 3 land masses, 1 large, 2 medium, separated by water(Ocean presumably). How did you merge these 3 on 1 tile?
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PatrikLundell

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #207 on: October 15, 2016, 11:11:00 am »

Here's the small size one
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It won't suit you because the embark is a single sand biome and the world is very metal poor. The embark is in the "water" tile just below the desert jutting down into the water (ocean). If you pan over the map pre embark and looking at neighbors, there's only one tile where you have all of them, and that's were I've placed the embark.
Also note that I've used it with0.43.05 and only the geography seed is included (allowing me to regenerate until I got a dead civ, goblins with ogres, and at least one necro tower in range). Also note that the region allocation description above was for a pocket world. If you look at the map and the parameters you'll find I've given the gobbos a medium size region, place my embark in a good small one (works most of the time), and have humans and elves in large regions.

Region size is based on total number of tiles, but I've forgotten the numbers. Note that a region is the aggregate of neighboring biomes of the same general type, not a single biome.
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The Grim Sleeper

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #208 on: October 15, 2016, 01:16:14 pm »

Here's the small size one (ommited)
It won't suit you because the embark is a single sand biome and the world is very metal poor.
There is actually a 'joyous wilds salt-water swamp' in the bottom-right corner. I could easily paint over the biome squares to get something I'd like. The salt water and the body of water are a bit of an issue, but not an insurmountable one. Fixing mineral scarcity is not really the issue.

But the proof of concept of Civilization-isolation is far more interesting! I'm looking into allowing the 1 tile to be above ocean level, allowing for a little extra control over the primary biome.
Update: So yes, raising that tile above sea-level doesn't remove the salt, removes some of the more interesting terrain features, leaves the whole tile totally flat, and the goblins and elves run rampant across the land bridge, but there were still 5 civs listed at embark, barely clinging to life.

Do the dwarves and Goblins need to war for the Towers to form?
Do 400elev mountain tiles block civilizations the same way oceans do?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2016, 01:28:05 pm by The Grim Sleeper »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: DF v0.43.03+ Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« Reply #209 on: October 15, 2016, 03:03:47 pm »

If you remove the world seed and let the world generate randomly (constrained by the PSVs, of course) you can sometimes get worlds where the swamp is separated from the sand by a single tile of water, so a 3*3 embark could get a bit of both. There's a chance for that for each of the lower corners, but you need quite a few attempts to get it.

If by "towers" you mean necro towers, the answer is no. They're formed by individuals who get obsessed by their mortality and manage to get hold of the secret of life and death. The reason I placed the goblins with the dwarves is simply that the dwarves are destined to die anyway, and if they get completely eliminated by goblins or megabeasts doesn't really matter.
Goblin towers are the starting points (usually, the can also have settlements grow to that size), and so generally exist before any wars are declared.

Mountains block access, yes. Thus, I suspect anything that ends up at or above 150 in the generated world (equals 300 in world gen terms: different scales are used, as seen in the world painter [the first number is the generation elevation, the second is the active world resultant one]). I.e. I think an unbroken world map line of mountain blocks access (although a hilly path through at the embark level may or may not allow access).

And yes, the purpose of this odd separation trick/exploit is to keep the races from eliminating each other (well, goblins generally tend to do wall, at everyone else's expense). I was aiming to get visitors, but wasn't successful.
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