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Author Topic: The small random questions thread [WAAAAAAAAAAluigi]  (Read 686087 times)

feelotraveller

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Re: The small random questions thread [WAAAAAAAAAAluigi]
« Reply #6570 on: November 23, 2020, 09:20:33 am »

Let me bold it for you:

"Today, it is Sundblom's Santa who decorates everything from Coca-Cola cans to Christmas sweaters, from greeting cards to home décor"

That's the advertising guy Coca Cola hired for their campaign.  He started producing those images in 1931and kept going through to 1964.  The 'debunk' although correct in stating that it is an urban legend that the colours were adopted since they were those of coke never had anything to do with my point, the colours had been in transition for some time. And of course there is a continuity, perhaps even a homage to Nast, but the coca cola images are the ones where the progression more or less ended.

Why would the National Museum of American History get it so wrong (unless of course they don't...).

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scriver

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Re: The small random questions thread [WAAAAAAAAAAluigi]
« Reply #6571 on: November 23, 2020, 10:38:24 am »

Except he clearly used an image already in the public mind. So no, it is not his Santa.

You can bold and enlarge that piece of text however much you want, you're still wrong.
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feelotraveller

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Re: The small random questions thread [WAAAAAAAAAAluigi]
« Reply #6572 on: November 23, 2020, 10:42:19 am »

Right, everybody clearly knows that Santa Claus always wears mistletoe in his hair.  hehehe.  That's what we see everywhere in images today, right?
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scriver

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Re: The small random questions thread [WAAAAAAAAAAluigi]
« Reply #6573 on: November 23, 2020, 10:44:39 am »

That's the white brim of his hat it's on, dude.
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Reelya

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Re: The small random questions thread [WAAAAAAAAAAluigi]
« Reply #6574 on: November 23, 2020, 11:17:50 am »

Let me bold it for you:

"Today, it is Sundblom's Santa who decorates everything from Coca-Cola cans to Christmas sweaters, from greeting cards to home décor"

That's the advertising guy Coca Cola hired for their campaign.  He started producing those images in 1931and kept going through to 1964.  The 'debunk' although correct in stating that it is an urban legend that the colours were adopted since they were those of coke never had anything to do with my point, the colours had been in transition for some time. And of course there is a continuity, perhaps even a homage to Nast, but the coca cola images are the ones where the progression more or less ended.

Why would the National Museum of American History get it so wrong (unless of course they don't...).

You're kind of rewriting the history of this meme. All the "Coca Cola Santa" people jump straight to "he used to wear green!!" rather than merely saying he popularized a Santa that was already the mainstream and made very slight alterations. EDIT: The only real addition to the entire look from the Nast Santa to the Sundblom Santa is that he the white trim on the hat and cuffs. But "added white trim to the hat/cuffs" is not what people are claiming when they say Coca Cola invented the Santa look - they're talking about the red coat, because red is the primary color associated with Coca Cola, that's what they're saying was added. Santa was already really red and white: a red coat and bushy white hair. Sundblom just added a touch more white at the edges.

Sundblom merely decluttered the existing design a bit. Like, in 1881 he was wearing a backpack which presumably would have gifts in it, but Sundblom removed the backpack. But again, this is clearly not what people mean when they say Coca Cola invented modern Santa. If you showed then the Nast Santa and lied to them and said "this is the 1930s Coca Cola Santa - the one where they turned him red" virtually everyone would believe you except a tiny minority of historians who'd point out that you're showing them the Nast Santa and not the Sundblom Santa. And that's the test here - almost nobody who believes the tropes could even tell a pre-Coke Santa from a post-Coke Santa, but they believe they could tell them apart because of the "special knowledge" imparted to them as part of the "Coca Cola created Santa" legend. They're just wrong and have been misled. Nast's Santa merely lacks the white cuffs on the sleeves and the white trim on the hat, but you could very easily convince people that this is actually the offending Sundblom Santa, and they'd totally buy into it, missing that detail completely, which indicates how peripheral that detail is to the theory.

The real story here is that Coca Cola were extremely successful at associating themselves with Santa such that people are easily convinced that Coca Cola's advertising was what turned Santa from green to red. Certainly nobody who actually believes the legend is talking about the minor design tweaks between ones of the generation of Nast's Santa and Sundblom's Santa.

Zooming in on a details such as mistletoe on a hat smacks of how pseudoscience works: having a pre-existing belief and zooming in on ever-less-important details to maintain the belief. In science terms the "mistletoe on hat" thing is on the level of honing in on noise in sample data below the leve of significance and claiming this proves a pre-existing overall theory correct, when in fact it's shifting the goalposts heavily. I really do NOT buy into the idea that the people who believe the Coca Cola Santa theory are believing it on the basis that the Sundblom Santa codified minor design variations in how Santa is drawn. That kind of thing is what scholars talk about, it's not the shit normal people mean when they discuss this: normal people do in fact mean "Santa is red because Coca Cola is red" and are not in fact saying "you know, there were slight variations in how Santa was drawn before this, such as the color or number of his buttons, whether he has white trim on hats, sometimes they even put a sprig of mistletoe in his hat, but due to mass media and the spread of advertising, Coca Cola managed to solidify minor details such as how many buttons Santa has, and that his coat sleeves have white fluffy cuffs". The real point here is that everyone who saw those ads was like "oh that's Santa" they didn't need to be told this is Santa. Sundblom merely took all the existing elements of Santa and made one that people would instantly recognize as Santa, which itself is proof that all those elements already existed, and this is the exact opposite of the urban legend that Coca Cola changed what people thought Santa was meant to look like. Sundblom merely created the most Santa-esque Santa he could, and thus that one spread.

https://americanhistory.si.edu/blog/santa-coca-cola
Read the title of the article "How Santa brought Coca-Cola in from the cold". Santa brought Coca-Cola in from the cold, not the other way around.

Quote
During the chilly winter months, the company faced a major problem: how do you convince customers that soda is not just a summer beverage, but should be enjoyed year-round? As early as the 1910s, they turned to Santa Claus for the answer, hoping the popular figure would help connect Coca-Cola to the holiday season.
...
In the early 1930s, Coca-Cola turned to Haddon H. Sundblom, an advertising artist with the D'Arcy Agency, to design a new Santa. Sundblom redrew Santa Claus as a plump, cheerful man with snow-white hair and dressed him in red and white—colors that had already become associated with Santa

Someone who's reading that who's already been infected with the ear-worm that says Coca Cola invented Santa's look to fit with their marketing is focusing in on the "dressed him in red and white" bit as an "aha!" moment because this validates their belief that Santa didn't wear red and white before the Sundblom Santa. But that's not the claim the article is making. The fact that Coca Cola was already interested in Santa from 1910 onwards really blows a hole in the theory that the 1933 Sundblom Santa is the trope-codifier for the red and white thing.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 12:40:33 pm by Reelya »
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feelotraveller

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Re: The small random questions thread [WAAAAAAAAAAluigi]
« Reply #6575 on: November 23, 2020, 01:37:03 pm »

You really are attacking a straw man.  I can only assume it's a Pavlovian reaction - any connected mention of coca cola and santa claus gets you frothing at the mouth.

I never said coca cola invented santa.  I never said coca cola changed his colours.  Why you insist that this is what I must have been saying is quite beyond me.

Just going on the particular Nast image which happens to be the closest to the coke santa there a quite a number of differences.  Different hat, no wide black belt, white fur somewhat absent, different body morphology (yes coke santa is plump but in that Nast image he is an obese balloon - not the image coke projected or has become the mainstay in the common mind) sack rather than backpack, different buttons.  Sure there is quite a lot of familiarity but no one is arguing the coke santa is not based off that.

Also have a look at a couple of other Nast images and you'll see that there was quite a lot of variation which was not amplified, or reworked by coke.
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-santa-claus-on-a-rooftop-carrying-a-decorated-christmas-tree-1860s-10123007.html  (Pretty sure the colouring is a later artifact, just as a note, not that it matters.)
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-harpers-1863-01-thomas-nast-santa-claus-137330669.html  (Probably a political satire but honestly enough wiggle room still for santa to be depicted in stars and stripes, blue presumably included.)
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-santa-claus-speaking-to-a-child-on-the-telephone-hello-little-one-10123044.html  Sort of half and half.
There are a number of others more closely corresponding to the third above.  The point being that the focus on one particular image does not correctly represent the breadth of Nast's Santa.  He depicted several quite varied santa's during his career. And he himself was working in a developing tradition that had already spanned several decades.  Only through extreme selectivity can that image be made his iconic represenation.

Of greater relevance is that santa has not been reworked in any real fashion after coke.  Ask a child in the street what hat santa wears, or what his belt looks like.  While they may not all answer correctly they will not identify the Nast features.  The santa claus a 7 year old imagines will correspond almost point by point to the coke image.
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Reelya

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Re: The small random questions thread [WAAAAAAAAAAluigi]
« Reply #6576 on: November 23, 2020, 01:49:03 pm »

I think you're just moving the goalposts:

Quote
Yep, I'm not joking.  The modern version of santa claus comes straight from coca-cola advertising.  There are older longer standing european traditions such as st. nicolaus and father christmas that it draws upon, but these are quite different on so many metrics.

You clearly were not talking about subtle differences betwen the Nast Santa and Blom Santa when you wrote that, and that's what I was responding to.

Nast pretty much codified most of modern Santa, and the same sites which reference the Coca Cola thing often point that out, Nast was drawing Santa for about 30 years. Yes, the 1860s Santas he drew were quite different to the modern Santas, but the point is ... the 1880s Santas he was drawing were fairly thoroughly modern, to the point that Christmas decoration manufacturers often just appropriate the public domain Nast Santas to put on cards and stuff, and nobody bats an eyelid.

You directly referenced traditional European St Nicholas when you wrote that, implying a complete break with that, that immediately goes to the Coca Cola Santa. now you're telling me a different story.

If I'd known how this would end up I'd have asked you to elaborate on what those "quite different on so many metrics" metrics actually are, rather than you being able to just retroactively state that any slight difference between Nast Santas and Sundblom Santas is the "so many metrics" you were talking about.

Saying that the old santa had a sprig of mistletoe on his head seems like a poor-man's "metric" to make the claim that modern Santa comes "straight" out of Coca Cola advertising: which is to make the claim that all the major features (aka metrics) are from Coke. Yeah, coke may have standardized the features of Santa, but all those features were prevalent in pre-existing Santa art, mostly put together in exactly the same way. That's a defensible claim, but it's ... definitely not the claim you were making when you said it came "straight" out of Coca Cola advertising. Basically you were saying Coke Santa was a whole new genre before, but now you're saying it's new because it's a remix. But it's more like one of those "remixes" where they don't change anything about the song, just call it a "techno remix" because they sampled the entire track and overlaid doof doof drums. We are talking about coat trim color and whether or not he has hair accessories here, those are the metrics.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 02:28:58 pm by Reelya »
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feelotraveller

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Re: The small random questions thread [WAAAAAAAAAAluigi]
« Reply #6577 on: November 23, 2020, 02:30:46 pm »

Indeed you are right that I was talking about the larger differences with the earlier european folklore versions - stuff like father christmas being wizened, even emmaciated, the embodiment of frugality and perseverence/preservation, a gnarled winter root (along with being depicted mainly in green).  But also the more spiritual aspects like how saint nicolaus was not the embodiment of rabid consumerism.  Nothing you have said convinces me that the coke rendering is not at the other end of this evolution.

More generally I was pointing at the beginning and the end of the santa claus evolution and musing about how different they are (even while other factors like the embodiment of the spirit of christmas stay the same, even when the nature has changed).   And of course that did not happen all at once; I'll happily admit that the differences between Nast and Sundblom are somewhat minor, particularly on the purely graphical level* ...but still Nast is closer to father christmas than Sundblom - the evolution did not stop.  For example, that Coke-Sundblom turned up the consumerism aspect to eleven does not mean it was not present in Harper-Nast, it was certainly already there.


* However one of the things about Nast santa's was they all (as far as I can tell) had mistletoe on their hats or heads.  I don't ever remember seeing that on a christmas card - although that's not to say it doesn't happen but rather that it is rare, at best.  The rant about mistletoe as some feature which confirms the conspiracy thinking comes off as exceedingly arrogant in this regard.
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Reelya

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Re: The small random questions thread [WAAAAAAAAAAluigi]
« Reply #6578 on: November 23, 2020, 02:37:55 pm »

Well consider this other one, an artwork called "the coming of Santa" by Nast



This has everything in it, including the white fur trim on the coat. Every single element of the Sundblom Santa is already present here.
 
To say that's not the Santa we know because he has a small sprig of greenery attached to his hat is very far from claiming that modern Santa came "straight out" of Coca Cola advertising. This is public domain, companies that make Christmas stuff use this type of art because it's free and literally nobody is looking at that and thinking it's anyone except Santa. If you buy dollar-store Christmas cards you'll see this stuff because they're using public domain Santas that predate Coca Cola by years.

EDIT: just googling Santa shows examples of Santa costumes with the same sprig on them:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Other Nast Santas
https://longislandwins.com/columns/immigrants-civil-war/german-refugee-thomas-nast-invented-santa-claus-looks-civil-war/
« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 03:01:31 pm by Reelya »
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Naturegirl1999

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Re: The small random questions thread [WAAAAAAAAAAluigi]
« Reply #6579 on: November 23, 2020, 02:59:34 pm »

Tbh I like that there’s mistletoe there, it kinda explains why mistletoe is associated with Christmas. Speaking of mistletoe, it is parasitic. Why has no one done a horror movie anou5 parasitic plants yet?
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Reelya

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Re: The small random questions thread [WAAAAAAAAAAluigi]
« Reply #6580 on: November 23, 2020, 03:02:51 pm »

There have been.

but it's usually around the theme of carnivorous plants rather than parasitic plants. See for example adaptations of
The Day of the Triffids. The best one is the UK mini-series. There was an American B-movie version which is very bad and doesn't follow the plot of the book.

feelotraveller

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Re: The small random questions thread [WAAAAAAAAAAluigi]
« Reply #6581 on: November 23, 2020, 03:03:55 pm »

The 'modern version of santa' is yet further removed from father christmas even to the point of removing the residual reference to the natural world symbolised by the mistletoe.  To say that children are not being raised on the coke version since the Nast version is only trivially different is missing a lot of what is going on.  Sure graphically it is quite small but symbolically the meaning is quite large, it just about completes the erasure of the natural world in the rite of christmas/end of season (probably something lacking there 'natively' in the southern hemisphere already, but that's a different issue).  Similarly with the addition of the sack - the swag of goodies that santa brings is highly symbolic and a change (I'm not sure if it is a blending from somewhere else or an innovation, and in the end it doesn't matter) from the Harper version.   The space of the sack (consumerism) becomes unlimited, or at least not defined by concrete limits.  Or again look a the body morphology, the coke image is of a rosy-cheeked, somewhat plump but ebulliently healthy man, whereas that Nast image smacks of breathlessness and of wanting to burst after having eaten to large a christmas dinner, or maybe falling over under ones own weight.

To say that it comes straight from coca cola advertising is not to say that it emerges ex nihilo but rather that conception of santa claus in the popular mind is in complete concordance with the coke santa.  (I imagine a kid seeing the above Nast saying - 'Ew, what's that green thing on his head?')
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Reelya

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Re: The small random questions thread [WAAAAAAAAAAluigi]
« Reply #6582 on: November 23, 2020, 03:05:35 pm »

Quote
To say that it comes straight from coca cola advertising is not to say that it emerges ex nihilo but rather that conception of santa claus in the popular mind is in complete concordance with the coke santa.  (I imagine a kid seeing the above Nast saying - 'Ew, what's that green thing on his head?')

It's in "complete concordance" because they used the pre-existing imagery that everyone already knew. How is that "came straight out of". This is some serious bullshit.

That's like saying smartphones came "straight out of" Samsung because the smartphones Samsung made were in complete concordance with what people expected from smartphones.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 03:07:08 pm by Reelya »
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feelotraveller

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Re: The small random questions thread [WAAAAAAAAAAluigi]
« Reply #6583 on: November 23, 2020, 03:06:58 pm »

You mean the kid that knows that mistletoe is not meant to be on santa's head?
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Reelya

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Re: The small random questions thread [WAAAAAAAAAAluigi]
« Reply #6584 on: November 23, 2020, 03:08:16 pm »

Your argument really is stupid if you're actually, for real, trying to justify your original statement which I quoted, with the mistletoe thing.

You can even buy Santa costumes that have that as a standard feature.

Not even one feature or metric of Santa came out of Coca-Cola. You're retreated now to the position "but Coca Cola's depiction made the mistletoe on his hat an optional feature instead of a required feature".

Here's the Washington Post apparently going with a Nast Santa to lead their story
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2018/12/06/sub-who-stole-christmas-teacher-who-debunked-santa-first-graders-is-dropped-districts-nice-list/
Maybe kids don't think about the mistletoe, but that's probably because children aren't particularly observant. However, if you said what stuff does Santa have, then you could tick every single one of the responses off against the Nast Santas shown. Sundblom Santa has glasses in some images, but people don't usually list "glasses" as one of the features, either.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 03:21:25 pm by Reelya »
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