Post by: Girlinhat on April 05, 2012, 08:34:49 pm
Embarked upon a peaceful enough flat shrubland with a brook running along the northern side. 4x4 embark, 100 mineral scarcity, single cavern layer, thick layers of stone, and a handful of dwarves who don't know what they're doing.
List:
Waiting
Completed
Pending Pickup
Playing
Skipped
Postponed
Girlinhat - 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=106649.msg3310506#msg3310506)
Naryar - 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=106649.msg3327855#msg3327855) 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=106649.msg3340830#msg3340830) 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=106649.msg3342017#msg3342017)
Mr Frog
NCommander
Talvieno
KoboldWarmonger
Eric Blank
blue sam3
tahujdt
Trif
Sphalerite
davros
Niyazov
HorridOwn4ge
Gilihad
greatorder
xmakina
Komra
ignatzami
WaffleEggnog
Post by: Naryar on April 05, 2012, 08:41:26 pm
Post by: Mr Frog on April 05, 2012, 08:45:15 pm
Actually, to confirm, how much detail/narrative-ness (that can be a word, right?) will we be going for on the updates? Like, 'in-character roleplay with all the trappings' or 'so I did this and some !!SCIENCE!! happened and here's some pictures of exploding goblins and the save for the next person'?
Also,
Quote from: Girlinhat
success fort
Surely, you jest?
Post by: Girlinhat on April 05, 2012, 08:57:10 pm
I'm not planning huge RP narrative for this, but rather "doctor's notes" on the growth and experimentation of the fort. Footnotes about population numbers and the arrival/dismissal of sieges, but not deep trawls of word and wisdom concerning the battles at hand.
Essentially, the mayor has one scroll on which to write the year's summary to send back with the liaison, but has five scrolls to go over the new mechanisms and cart dynamics.
Post by: KodKod on April 05, 2012, 08:58:47 pm
Post by: Mr Frog on April 05, 2012, 09:10:36 pm
Should we get started on brainstorming ideas? 'Cause there won't be much else to do on this front 'till the release comes around in a month/2 months/a year.
I'm currently thinking minecart danger rooms would be awesome
Post by: NCommander on April 05, 2012, 09:17:13 pm
Dwarfish clay pigeons :-).
Post by: Kofthefens on April 05, 2012, 09:38:33 pm
Post by: Talvieno on April 05, 2012, 09:51:00 pm
Post by: KoboldWarmonger on April 05, 2012, 11:26:15 pm
A dwarf stumbles in, his beard caked with vomit and what appears to be blood. He fits right in, but his presence is still a little odd- none of you recall ever seeing him in the fortress before. He speaks.
"I am intrigued by these.. mine-carts. In my previous fortresses, peasant satisfaction at their jobs is typically very low. A particularly popular dwarf having an unfortunate accident results in a tantrum wave which potentially destroys the fortress... not that I've ever experienced such a thing before. With me as overseer, our peasants will be safe. Yes... very safe."
For some reason, you don't believe him.
Post by: Vanaheimer on April 05, 2012, 11:55:15 pm
PTW.
What she said.
Post by: Eric Blank on April 06, 2012, 12:06:30 am
I currently can't think of anything to test, though. Perhaps something will come up and not be used before I get a chance to study it.
If not, I can keep the fortress on it's feet and acquire materials for other researchers.
Post by: Mr Frog on April 06, 2012, 12:29:16 am
I currently can't think of anything to test, though. Perhaps something will come up and not be used before I get a chance to study it.
Well, that's really only to be expected. We don't actually know what we're working with here -- all we have are a couple tantalizing devlog quotes and a dash of wishful thinking. Once the version's out and we actually have some hard data, coming up with applications for said data will be much more simple.
Post by: Eric Blank on April 06, 2012, 12:38:04 am
We also need to test how much protection, if any, they provide to items hauled within, especially when subjected to submersion in lava or water. Such as caged creatures or flammable items. I suspect they will open up a lot of possibilities for the !!SCIENCE!! of !!MATERIALS!! research, wherein materials and containers are subjected to heat in a fortress- or adventur-mode environment, due to the fact that there will be ways to move minecarts into and out of areas affected by magma and flames, whereas dwarves would die in the middle/carrying a burning object and ruining the experiment.
Post by: KoboldWarmonger on April 06, 2012, 12:42:26 am
Post by: Mr Frog on April 06, 2012, 12:48:48 am
This is kind of driving me nuts. There are so many questions, and I already know what I want the answers to be, but I'll have to wait at least a few weeks to get them and see ô__Õ twitch twitch twich
Post by: blue sam3 on April 06, 2012, 09:15:04 am
Post by: Loud Whispers on April 06, 2012, 01:17:47 pm
Post by: tahujdt on April 06, 2012, 01:55:35 pm
Post by: Trif on April 06, 2012, 01:59:12 pm
Post by: Sphalerite on April 06, 2012, 02:07:09 pm
Post by: Girlinhat on April 06, 2012, 02:15:04 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on April 06, 2012, 03:46:56 pm
I also don't really see how a succession game, even/especially a well-managed one, could be considered an efficient method for conducting ‼SCIENCE‼ either way. Too clumsy and disorganized.
Post by: Talvieno on April 06, 2012, 03:51:33 pm
I'm currently thinking of flash rounds. Each turn is 1 day long, and 1 year of dwarf. The intent here is to go quick, do dwarf, and get science done so we can report findings in a timely manner.
Oooh, wow... :-\ If you're set on that, I may have to drop out. :( It can take me around two hours for a single season, after a few years in, when the FPS drops to 10. I second Eric's suggestion... 2-4 days, perhaps? On the lower end of that. I could manage a turn in two days, no matter how low the FPS was.
Post by: Girlinhat on April 06, 2012, 04:13:26 pm
Post by: Dr.Propz on April 07, 2012, 02:37:23 am
Post by: Naryar on April 07, 2012, 04:26:31 am
Post by: KoboldWarmonger on April 08, 2012, 01:16:15 pm
I agree that a succession game is not as nimble as multiple suicide embarks, as far as science is concerned. That's the point, though! We will probably screw up and serve as entertainment and preliminary research for the others.
I'm still excited. Depending on when my turn is I'd like to build the quarryvator- pulling ore up from the depths en masse to be worked. I sleep fitfully at night, imagining what it would be like to come up with something that will further dwarfkind- a warmonger quarryvator in every fortress! The smelters will run hot around the clock, and hopefully we won't need a bucket-line of peasants to keep it going.
I see no mention of powered tracks from Toady, though. We're going to need to do a lot of little tests regarding how momentum works- how long of a run do we need to get up a hill and around a bend? Is it better to have light or heavy carts? (Do heavy carts go slower? Do they keep momentum longer?)
Maybe I'm going to have to make peasants pull the carts. :)
Post by: Girlinhat on April 08, 2012, 04:23:18 pm
Post by: KoboldWarmonger on April 08, 2012, 04:54:17 pm
Post by: ASCIt on April 08, 2012, 05:26:35 pm
Post by: KoboldWarmonger on April 09, 2012, 05:01:05 am
To avoid stepping on each other's toes over time, I think we should reserve a large portion of every layer (perhaps even a quarter or half of the embark) guaranteed to be uncarved across z-levels, and when you need to make a pump stack or railevator you do your best to be frugal with your use of that space.
Post by: Mitchewawa on April 09, 2012, 05:58:08 am
I'm currently thinking of flash rounds. Each turn is 1 day long, and 1 year of dwarf. The intent here is to go quick, do dwarf, and get science done so we can report findings in a timely manner.
This might not give people enough time to set up. PTW.
Post by: Eric Blank on April 09, 2012, 08:31:39 am
I'm currently thinking of flash rounds. Each turn is 1 day long, and 1 year of dwarf. The intent here is to go quick, do dwarf, and get science done so we can report findings in a timely manner.
This might not give people enough time to set up. PTW.
Already notified of such.
But I didn't see a final agreement on a timeframe either. 7 days maximum should be doable for most of us, and we can obviously upload the save at any point in between.
Post by: Girlinhat on April 09, 2012, 10:02:11 am
But, let's start scheming. What all do we want to test out? I've updated OP slightly, so start suggesting your things.
Post by: Trif on April 09, 2012, 01:45:28 pm
Can items in minecarts be stolen by Kobolds?
What happens when a flying minecart hits a solid wall, a construction or an item? What happens when it lands on a creature?
Post by: davros on April 09, 2012, 03:31:27 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on April 09, 2012, 03:37:24 pm
Can they travel along diagonals?
But the most important question is how can they be effectively weaponized, and how much effort would have to go into doing such relative to other available choices for defense?
I would consider it important to test how readily a minecart will transfer heat to it's contents, such as bathing it in magma for a brief period. See if it will set wooden cages on fire, and then move away from the magma, thus perhaps letting the contents of said cages exit the minecart in drop-pod fashion when the cage finishes burning (or do creatures contained within burning cages simply catch on fire/die when it burns away? I don't remember ever reading about the subject...) Of course we'd need to know if the creature would be immediately crushed by the cart...
Can a platinum minecart loaded with platinum bars damage a bronze colossus?
Post by: Sphalerite on April 09, 2012, 04:49:08 pm
I will attempt to determine the exact requirements needed to have a cart going around a track at a constant speed. This will require determining the ratio required between powered rollers and unpowered track to keep a cart going without speeding up enough to fly off the track or slowing down and coming to a stop.
I also wish to determine if a mine cart can be selectively pushed onto a side track by using powered rollers on a crossing to change the direction in which a mine cart is moving.
If I succeed in my initial experiments, I will attempt to develop a simple delay-line memory using mine carts traveling around a large loop.
Post by: Mr Frog on April 09, 2012, 06:31:27 pm
Is it possible to build a cart directly on top of rollers, thus allowing one to start it remotely by linking it to a lever-operated gear assembly?
Is it possible to immerse a magma-safe cart in magma, on magma-safe rollers, linked to a magma-safe gear assembly, thus allowing one to fling a superheated iron box at invaders at superluminal speeds with the flick of a switch?
Minecart danger rooms -- what is the minimum speed that a cart is considered a "dangerous" projectile? By carefully controlling the velocity of the carts, it may be possible to get them to move fast enough for dwarves to dodge them (thus presumably training their Dodge skill) while still not hitting hard enough to cause more than minor injuries.
EDIT: Dwarven airmail -- assuming minecarts are indestructible, it should be possible to rev a minecart up a spiral ramp to the surface, then fling it off a jump into a wall above a pit some distance away, after which it drops down into the fortress itself. Pretty much a Stupid Dwarf Trick at best, but there may be some instances where you need to deliver supplies without having a ground path between the two points.
Post by: Girlinhat on April 09, 2012, 06:33:12 pm
Post by: Sphalerite on April 09, 2012, 06:37:34 pm
Post by: Mr Frog on April 09, 2012, 06:45:38 pm
Post by: Girlinhat on April 09, 2012, 09:32:39 pm
Post by: Mr Frog on April 09, 2012, 10:01:56 pm
You could make a 3 long section, where the cart bounces between two rollers with a plate in the middle. Due to the timing, it would probably keep the plate depressed as it moves quickly back and forth. A bridge/door/creative gearbox could be used to let the cart escape the loop and "disengage the hatch".
I don't think that the cart will move forever, though. It'd presumably be sent back from each roller at the same speed that it hit the roller at (I'm comparing this to gravitational acceleration, and how (I think) an object launched upwards from height x at velocity s in a vacuum will have accelerated to a speed of -s by the time it comes back down to its original height x). Since it'll slow down a bit from friction every time it goes over the pressure plate, it might end up stalling after too many repetitions.
EDIT: Sphalerite, are you sure that a moving cart A that hits a stationary cart B will be left in the same spot that B was? From what I understand about kinematics, a perfect transmission of kinetic energy -- which I'm assuming is what's used -- would leave A at the exact point that it was when it struck B -- i.e. immediately behind where B was.
Post by: Niyazov on April 10, 2012, 07:51:53 am
Post by: Girlinhat on April 10, 2012, 09:23:29 am
I don't think that the cart will move forever, though.You're basing that on real world physics, not on DF physics. And even in the case of real world physics, you're not comparing it correctly. I'm not sending the cart up one hill and back again. What I'm doing is sending it between two actively powered boosters. Boosters are called rollers.
Code: [Select]
>=^<> Roller pushing east= Bridge
^ Plate
< Roller pushing west
Rollers are powered by mechanical power and axles and gears. That means water coming in from the river is powering the rollers. The cart hits one roller, and is propelled forward over the bridge and plate to hit the other roller, where it's stopped and sent the other way. Each "push" is a unique action and not influenced by the push before it. Every push will have the maximum energy that a single roller can impart.
When you want to disengage the latch, you pull the lever on the bridge, which causes the cart to fall out of the system and allows the plate to reset.
If the cart moves back and forth quicker than 100 ticks, then the plate stays down. In other words, it has 100 ticks to hit one roller and get pushed in the other direction. If it takes shorter time, then it "resets" the plate's timer and keeps it depressed. It it takes longer time, then it allows the plate to trigger and you end up with a repeater.
Post by: HorridOwn4ge on April 10, 2012, 09:43:04 am
Post by: Mr Frog on April 10, 2012, 12:01:02 pm
But the way I understood it, a roller basically works the same way as a ramp -- i.e. it accelerates a minecart on top of it in a specific direction. I suppose this needs to be tested: Do rollers hard-set the speed of a cart or do they simply accelerate carts on top of them? unless Toady already said something about this and I'm looking even stupider than usual, in which case a link would be appreciated.
Post by: Awessum Possum on April 10, 2012, 12:07:01 pm
Post by: Talvieno on April 10, 2012, 12:59:54 pm
@Girlinhat:In his Future of the Fortress post, he stated that tracks weren't uni-directional. This might imply the necessity of rollers being two-way, as otherwise all tracks (except for dwarf-pushed ones) would be basically one-way.
But the way I understood it, a roller basically works the same way as a ramp -- i.e. it accelerates a minecart on top of it in a specific direction. I suppose this needs to be tested: Do rollers hard-set the speed of a cart or do they simply accelerate carts on top of them? unless Toady already said something about this and I'm looking even stupider than usual, in which case a link would be appreciated.
Post by: Conrad on April 10, 2012, 01:01:26 pm
There's going to be a lot of fun with this release. I've already started thinking of ways to automate a fortress... This will make entirely new ways to use burrows. Different sections of the fort (smithing, farming, refuse + butchery, military barracks and outside, etc) spread all over the map connected only by the mine carts to "the hub", a central stockpile. I've already started thinking about what sorts of dwarven logic gates can be used for the most efficient hauling systems...
Posting to follow and to contribute devilish ideas!
Post by: Girlinhat on April 10, 2012, 01:28:14 pm
Post by: Mr Frog on April 10, 2012, 03:11:03 pm
To put it in pseudocode, is it:
if (Cart.IsOnTopOfRoller()){
Cart.velX = Roller.velX;
Cart.velY = Roller.velY;
}
or is it
if (Cart.IsOnTopOfRoller()){
Cart.velX += Roller.accelX;
Cart.velY += Roller.accelY;
}
Post by: Girlinhat on April 10, 2012, 08:02:26 pm
Post by: Mr Frog on April 10, 2012, 08:58:10 pm
The tile-based spatial coordinates may throw a bit of a monkey wrench into this, though.
Post by: KoboldWarmonger on April 10, 2012, 10:06:19 pm
Of course, I look forward to the damage tests. What happens to a chained goblin when you hit it as fast as you possibly can? Gibbing? Can we hit fire imps or other veryhot-blooded animals and kill people with the shower of parts?
Post by: Mr Frog on April 10, 2012, 10:23:10 pm
Quote from: Toady One
[Asked about whether carts have a maximum speed when going down ramps]
If I remember, they hit a terminal velocity going down, but it's quite fast.
Quote from: DevLog
There are powered "rollers" placed in strips that increase the speed of minecarts in a given direction, up to a point (more than enough to get them up a ramp, anyway).
Post by: tahujdt on April 10, 2012, 11:06:57 pm
Post by: Eric Blank on April 10, 2012, 11:25:56 pm
Post by: Mr Frog on April 11, 2012, 01:15:45 am
ACTUALLY RELEVANT:
- Assuming that rideable carts make it in, will units riding carts suffer the same falling damage as others, i.e. do carts cushion falls?
Should prolly take that one to FotF, come to think of it
Post by: Girlinhat on April 11, 2012, 09:36:47 am
That is a question though. Do riders suffer fall damage from flying carts? My aerial dragoon squad may have hit a snag...
Post by: Eric Blank on April 11, 2012, 09:45:14 am
Post by: Talvieno on April 11, 2012, 12:26:50 pm
Mr. Frog, you seem to not clearly understand how impulse works. So I'm going to quit this argument until I come at you with a working repeater/latch.If it was realistic, you could land a rider on a slanted track slanting downwards in the direction the minecart is going, and it would turn the landing into forward momentum, decreasing the jolt upon landing. I don't know if Toady will do that, though. Also, I get the feeling that dwarves won't be invincible. Just seems like a Toady thing to do.
That is a question though. Do riders suffer fall damage from flying carts? My aerial dragoon squad may have hit a snag...
Post by: Mr Frog on April 11, 2012, 02:11:08 pm
So would you please explain to me how I'm wrong instead of simply assuring me that I am and artificially shutting down the conversation as though that'll get anyone anywhere? Because, at the moment, I think I'm right, you think I'm wrong, and I'm not likely to accept that I'm misinformed just because you said so. That would open up several philosophical cans of worms which I'm very much not intellectually-equipped to deal with.
Spoiler: Mr Frog tries to do math! (TL;DR WARNING) (click to show/hide)
Post by: Girlinhat on April 11, 2012, 05:51:54 pm
Code: [Select]
######
0===<#
######2: Cart passes over the roller, robbing it of some momentum before it hits the wall and stops.Code: [Select]
######
====0#
######3: The roller applies force, sending the cart from the right, to the left.Code: [Select]
######
==0=<#
######4: This is actually ping-pong.Code: [Select]
#######
#>0==<#
#######5: You should have already installed a pressure plate.Code: [Select]
#######
#>=^0<#
#######6: You also need a bridge, which carts can pass over as if they were tracks.Code: [Select]
#######
#>0^+<#
#######While active, the cart will hopefully have enough momentum to run back and forth within 100 ticks, and function as a latch as it keeps the pressure plate depressed. If it takes longer, then it will be a repeater instead.
To deactivate, you retract the bridge, and the cart falls to the level below into whatever track system is set up.
Post by: Mr Frog on April 11, 2012, 06:38:55 pm
The faster the cart hits the roller, the farther along it'll get before stopping (I'm assuming that the cart's position is stored as a floating-point value which is then rounded to determine which space the cart is considered to be 'on' for the purposes of game mechanics). The farther along the cart is on the roller, the longer it'll take for the roller to push the cart off and thus the more speed the cart will have by the time it comes off the roller. Since it'll constantly lose speed due to friction, it'll eventually not get enough speed from the rollers to make it to the other one. I don't know how to explain it more clearly than that.
You could probably just do this:
Code: [Select]
vX<
P |
>X^
P is a pressure plate, X is a floodgate or something that can stop them from spinning around
And have two carts located across from each other flying around pushing the plate. Of course, they'll probably end up spinning faster and faster until they hit the rollers' hardcoded speed limit, but putting walls on the corners should at least prevent them from flying off.
Post by: Girlinhat on April 11, 2012, 07:07:42 pm
Let's make a small illustration here. Let's assume that the left is -x and the right is +x. If you have an object traveling at +20/s then it's traveling from left to right. If you want it to travel in the opposite direction, you would need to apply -20 speed to bring it to a stop and an additional -20 to bring it up to -20/s traveling from right to left.
If you have an object traveling at +20/s and it hits a wall, it's instantly at 0 and will only take -20 to reverse direction. Bringing the object to an instant halt will save you half as much energy. As an extension, if your object is at a dead stop and being rolled, then it will be much easier to get moving than an object that is acting against the direction of movement.
A thought has occurred to me though. Describe what a roller does. Just, you tell me exactly how a roller will work.
Post by: Mr Frog on April 11, 2012, 07:31:57 pm
Also:
Post by: Aseaheru on April 11, 2012, 08:39:53 pm
if siege weapons aim and fire at enemy mobs and mine carts can carry cages(hopefully still full of trolls), can siege weapons hit a troll, in a cage, on a mine cart? also, can there be a system where mine carts can suck-up drops it comes across, and possibly reload traps, then you don't have to worry about the item dance and just have to worry about urist mc-noble being a arse.
Post by: Girlinhat on April 11, 2012, 10:37:36 pm
Post by: Mitchewawa on April 12, 2012, 07:50:28 am
I think in a real world scenario Mr Frogs design might work better due to no loss of momentum from walls, plus the fact that the cart does not have a max velocity. It would, in real life, go around the track (even though it's longer) faster then a cart could switch directions in Girlinhat's design. This being that whenever the cart hits the wall, its acceleration is zero and the roller has to re-apply the force in the other direction, whereas Frog's design does not have loss of acceleration (barring friction).
However, for the sake of the game Girlinhat's would work better. For one, I assume rollers apply an instant velocity (as acceleration does not appear to exist in this game) and the track is just plain shorter.
Post by: Trif on April 12, 2012, 08:12:17 am
Let's assume that a roller can accelerate a minecart to 20/s in the direction it's built, if the minecart fully traverses the roller.
This happens after the initial wall-slam.
2: Cart passes over the roller, robbing it of some momentum before it hits the wall and stops.The cart passes the roller, being decelerated and hitting the wall afterwards.Code: [Select]######
====0#
######
At this point, v= 0/s.
3: The roller applies force, sending the cart from the right, to the left.Now it gains momentum. Its mass remains the same (if minecarts don't reach relativistic speeds, which we'll assume for now), so it's sufficient to observe the velocities.Code: [Select]######
==0=<#
######
The cart fully traverses the roller and is accelerated to v=20/s.
4: This is actually ping-pong.It's not quite ping-pong, and the cause is friction.Code: [Select]#######
#>0==<#
#######
The minecart loses a bit of its speed, so it arrives at the second roller with less than 20/s, maybe 18/s.
The moment it moves on the roller, it's getting decelerated. Now, if a roller can accelerate a minecart to 20/s, it can also decelerate a minecart with 20/s to 0/s if it fully traverses the roller in the opposite direction. The problem here is: our minecart is slower than 20/s. As a result, it cannot reach the other side of the roller because the roller decelerates it too much. The cart cannot slam into the wall, and it stops somewhere on the roller (2/20 of a tile off the wall, to be exact).
Because it can't fully traverse the roller, it won't get accelerated to -20/s, only to -18/s again. The trend here is obvious: the cart will lose some of its velocity again, acceleration won't suffice etc.
Long story short, the cart will stop in the middle eventually.
That is, if Mr Frog's conception of a roller is correct (and I think it's likely) (and if I understood it correctly).
This post was brought to you by the verb: to traverse.
Post by: Girlinhat on April 12, 2012, 08:46:13 am
Post by: Mr Frog on April 12, 2012, 12:59:33 pm
@Mitchewawa:
Look back at the devlog quote I posted a few posts back -- Toady specifically mentions rollers as increasing the speed of a cart, which sounds like acceleration to me. Also, his mention of the rollers having a maximum possible point that they can increase a cart's speed to is meaningless unless it's possible for the cart to not be sped up to that point every time.
Should probably learn how not to jump down people's throats whenever they say something I think might be wrong...
@Girlinhat:
Well, that is the Problem, isn't it? Real-life physics don't suffer from rounding errors, or quantum tomfoolery due to a ridiculously long Planck time :p
Post by: Aseaheru on April 12, 2012, 09:47:44 pm
Post by: Mr Frog on April 13, 2012, 01:47:35 am
Quote from: Devlog
[Concentrated Awesomesauce]
Okay, so three things we should be taking away from this:
- Dwarves riding carts is pretty much confirmed to be in for this release.
- Dwarves can apparently take independent action while riding a cart (to what extent, I wonder?).
- It is semi-possible to launch a dwarf through the air without killing it.
I'll have to see if I can set up an aerial bombardment squad consisting of crossbow-wielding dorfs riding minecarts launched into low-earth orbit.
Also, Toady's offhanded comment regarding the potential implications of this new system for cages implies that Aseaheru may in fact be getting his minecart archery range, which is amusing to me.
@Aseaheru:
Depending on how Toady handles things, you might be able to sort minecarts based on whether a creature's riding them. It depends on whether a creature riding a cart can still trigger pressure plates set to activate when a creature's on them. (NOTE TO SELF: Test this.)
Post by: Aseaheru on April 13, 2012, 08:14:03 am
FLYING VAMPIRE CARTS INTO THE SUN! and then into a little box/cell/thing full of lava
also if you link a cage to a lever, then move the cage, is it still linked? dog bombs
Post by: Roboboy33 on April 13, 2012, 02:25:56 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on April 14, 2012, 10:44:16 am
Post by: KoboldWarmonger on April 14, 2012, 04:14:53 pm
This means I probably won't be able to run forts for a while, certainly not in the timely manner required by a succession game. I withdraw my request for overseership. I wish you luck, colleagues. I'm sad I can't join you.
Post by: Gilihad on April 15, 2012, 01:05:59 am
As for more test ideas:
What happens when two minecarts collide (on ground/in air)? Are carts destroyed? If so, how? If not, how do they fall/fly away? How do varying speeds affect trajectory of items/carts after collision? How do objects scatter if minecarts collide?
This could probably all fall under a "minecart collision statistics" category.
There are bunches of applications for that sort of information, including directed minecart attacks, weaponized magma or directed, AOE, heavy stone bombs (better and more dwarfy than catapults), mid-air delivery systems, and probably other stuff I can't think of right now.
Post by: expwnent on April 15, 2012, 12:38:29 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on April 15, 2012, 02:12:15 pm
Post by: BastiBasti on April 21, 2012, 10:44:57 am
Quote from: Devlog[Concentrated Awesomesauce]Okay, so three things we should be taking away from this:
- Dwarves riding carts is pretty much confirmed to be in for this release.
- Dwarves can apparently take independent action while riding a cart (to what extent, I wonder?).
- It is semi-possible to launch a dwarf through the air without killing it.I'll have to see if I can set up an aerial bombardment squad consisting of crossbow-wielding dorfs riding minecarts launched into low-earth orbit.
Also, Toady's offhanded comment regarding the potential implications of this new system for cages implies that Aseaheru may in fact be getting his minecart archery range, which is amusing to me.
@Aseaheru:
Depending on how Toady handles things, you might be able to sort minecarts based on whether a creature's riding them. It depends on whether a creature riding a cart can still trigger pressure plates set to activate when a creature's on them. (NOTE TO SELF: Test this.)
That piece of text just describes dwarf fortress perfectly
Post by: xmakina on April 26, 2012, 11:28:45 am
Post by: Aseaheru on April 26, 2012, 03:29:49 pm
Post by: xmakina on April 27, 2012, 03:45:51 am
heres a question. what happens when a wood cart (if there can be one), loaded with wood and other burnables, gets filled with lava?Presumably it and it's contents burst into flames
Post by: Aseaheru on April 28, 2012, 06:58:49 pm
Post by: Triskelli on April 28, 2012, 10:33:56 pm
Also, fingers crossed for modded engines. If minecarts are creatures like wagons, then there should be no problem defining a "locomotive" as both a cart and a hauling creature, with smoke-emissions. 8)
Post by: Talvieno on April 29, 2012, 03:29:34 am
Also, fingers crossed for modded engines. If minecarts are creatures like wagons, then there should be no problem defining a "locomotive" as both a cart and a hauling creature, with smoke-emissions. 8)Nope, sorry, Toady said a while back that they'd be tools. And not the living kind, either. :P
Post by: Komra on May 13, 2012, 03:31:32 pm
My first order of business will be the volcano-powered lava shotgun with added obsidian shrapnel. The second will be the particle forcefield (flying carts all over the place on a looping track). Finally, If I can properly infect a reservoir with syndrome fluid, a cart-delivered bioweapon would be quite fun.
This will be an excellent opportunity for come dorfy carnage!
Post by: Aseaheru on May 13, 2012, 04:56:51 pm
Post by: Trif on May 14, 2012, 11:49:07 am
Post by: Girlinhat on May 14, 2012, 01:02:01 pm
Post by: Trif on May 14, 2012, 02:12:01 pm
Post by: FearfulJesuit on May 14, 2012, 02:13:56 pm
Post by: Girlinhat on May 14, 2012, 02:37:48 pm
However, we may have the most dwarven mist generator idea.
Post by: Komra on May 14, 2012, 02:50:59 pm
Flat shrubland with a river on one side, generally high (semi)megabeast count, and scarcity 100 (ie, ore everywhere). A nice solid embark for solid science. Sound good?
If you could find one with a volcano, clay, shell-farmable swamps, a brook, and a sand source, that's dorf paradise. However, that will work.
Post by: FearfulJesuit on May 14, 2012, 03:21:18 pm
As always, magma mist is caused when an item falls into magma, NOT when magma is falling.Yeah, but do we know yet what happens when a cart carrying magma rams into a wall while flying through mid-air?
However, we may have the most dwarven mist generator idea.
Post by: caddybear on May 14, 2012, 04:18:10 pm
As always, magma mist is caused when an item falls into magma, NOT when magma is falling.Yeah, but do we know yet what happens when a cart carrying magma rams into a wall while flying through mid-air?
However, we may have the most dwarven mist generator idea.
Chocolate rain.
I mean, fun. Also ptw.
Post by: Gilihad on May 15, 2012, 01:32:33 am
Post by: Komra on May 15, 2012, 04:09:25 am
Should a list of overseers be started?
Yes, but I think that for this fort that has such a different purpose, we should give a suitably different title to our leader. Perhaps "Grand Innovator" or "Technomancer" would be appropriate.
Post by: ignatzami on May 15, 2012, 12:49:08 pm
Post by: Mr Frog on May 15, 2012, 01:07:09 pm
Better get my dorf on for the coming cartpocalypse, then :D
This is going to be cartaclysmic. Possibly even cartastrophic.
...I'll stop now before my lame puns leave you all cartatonic.
Post by: Aseaheru on May 15, 2012, 03:00:11 pm
fun thou
Post by: Naryar on May 16, 2012, 10:34:24 am
Post by: tahujdt on May 16, 2012, 10:08:42 pm
Post by: FearfulJesuit on May 18, 2012, 08:32:10 am
Post by: WaffleEggnog on May 18, 2012, 05:11:17 pm
Post by: Aseaheru on May 18, 2012, 05:34:44 pm
Post by: Komra on May 19, 2012, 07:13:21 am
In order of application:
- Girlinhat
- Naryar
- Mr Frog
- NCommander
- Talvieno
- KoboldWarmonger
- Eric Blank
- blue sam3 (maybe)
- tahujdt
- Trif
- Sphalerite
- davros
- HorridOwn4ge
- greatorder
- xmakina
- ME!
- ignatzami
I'm just going to do a random number generation on Random.org for 4 overseers to begin with. I may as well exclude myself, then- it wouldn't go over well.
Okay, here we are-
6, 2, 14, 10
So, our lucky technomancers are KoboldWarmonger, Naryar, Greatorder, and Trif. If girlinhat doesn't respond within 3 or 4 days, I'll generate a world myself and send it off to Mr. Kobold. Good luck!
Post by: Girlinhat on May 19, 2012, 10:09:32 am
Post by: Aseaheru on May 19, 2012, 12:36:21 pm
Post by: expwnent on May 19, 2012, 02:52:41 pm
Post by: Girlinhat on May 19, 2012, 11:34:24 pm
Quote from: Toady One The Great
Crayon rewards were drawn. Rollers that push everything everywhere were fixed. I adjusted the behavior of some screens when they are resized beyond 80x25 (lots more to do there). Carts that are unassigned but on tracks are moved to stockpiles properly now, and carts that are assigned to stops not on tracks won't be placed in stockpiles now. Few more days and we'll put another one up.Few more days and we'll strike the earth as well.
Post by: Gilihad on May 20, 2012, 08:35:35 am
Okay, so here we are with the Overseer applicant list:
In order of application:
- Girlinhat
- Naryar
- Mr Frog
- NCommander
- Talvieno
- KoboldWarmonger
- Eric Blank
- blue sam3 (maybe)
- tahujdt
- Trif
- Sphalerite
- davros
- HorridOwn4ge
- greatorder
- xmakina
- ME!
- ignatzami
I'm just going to do a random number generation on Random.org for 4 overseers to begin with. I may as well exclude myself, then- it wouldn't go over well.
Okay, here we are-
6, 2, 14, 10
So, our lucky technomancers are KoboldWarmonger, Naryar, Greatorder, and Trif. If girlinhat doesn't respond within 3 or 4 days, I'll generate a world myself and send it off to Mr. Kobold. Good luck!
You forgot some people (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=106649.msg3194947#msg3194947). Also, KoboldWarmonger broke his computer (RIP) and withdrew his submission like he said just above my post.
Post by: weq15 on May 20, 2012, 01:07:52 pm
Post by: Komra on May 20, 2012, 03:01:20 pm
Post by: Girlinhat on May 20, 2012, 08:33:54 pm
Post by: Komra on May 21, 2012, 05:14:58 am
- Girlinhat
- Naryar
- Mr Frog
- NCommander
- Talvieno
- KoboldWarmonger (cancelled, may rejoin)
- Eric Blank
- blue sam3 (tentative)
- tahujdt
- Trif
- Sphalerite
- davros
- Niyazov
- HorridOwn4ge
- Gilihad
- greatorder
- xmakina
- Komra
- ignatzami
- WaffleEggnog
Post by: Naryar on May 21, 2012, 07:26:07 am
Post by: Girlinhat on May 21, 2012, 01:51:04 pm
Post by: Mr Frog on May 21, 2012, 02:23:19 pm
Well, there's technically nothing stopping you from taking two turns -- one to set up the fort, and another to actually do important things, such as determining the effects of ramming goblins into magma on the goblins' health. I can't speak for the other participants, but I wouldn't have any issues with that. From what I've seen, you're one of the more talented ‼SCIENTIST‼s on the forum, and it'd be a shame for your only direct contribution to the fort to be simple grunt work.
Maybe the first time someone fails to take their turn, you could take an additional turn in their place? That would prevent anyone from being forced to wait longer than they should for their turn, since there wouldn't be any more turns to wait through -- the turn would just be taken by a different person than expected.
Post by: Komra on May 22, 2012, 03:52:36 am
@Girlinhat:
Maybe the first time someone fails to take their turn, you could take an additional turn in their place? That would prevent anyone from being forced to wait longer than they should for their turn, since there wouldn't be any more turns to wait through -- the turn would just be taken by a different person than expected.
I second this.
Post by: Gilihad on May 22, 2012, 04:57:38 am
Post by: Naryar on May 22, 2012, 08:32:09 am
Also defending against goblins.
Post by: Girlinhat on May 22, 2012, 09:44:38 am
Post by: Naryar on May 22, 2012, 11:29:31 am
All goblin defense shall be minecart.
Good luck on that... oh well, it'll be funnier than standard goblin defense anyways.
Post by: Komra on May 22, 2012, 02:58:56 pm
Post by: Girlinhat on May 23, 2012, 02:22:20 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
1: Minecarts are loaded from a level above, and set to push west always immediately. The dwarf will grab a cart and push it into the hole, where they then cannot path to it and will leave it alone.
2: The rollers along the eastern edge keep the carts "primed" and a single windmill keeps them active.
3: The floodgates prevent the carts from moving.
4: The lever to the far left opens the floodgates when it's time to discuss market prices.
5: We don't know what happens, but intense diplomacy occurs and prices are debated.
6: Carts drop to the lower level where haulers pick them up and put them back onto the upper loading level, allowing for re-firing.
7: When the lever is pulled again, the merchants have gleefully agreed to donate much of their wares free of charge!
Issues:
1: Sometimes when striking a large caravan, carts can get stuck on the depot floor.
2: Rarely, live traders will be pushed into the pit on the left, and may or may not be struck by the next minecart that falls down.
3: I need to tidy it up a bit, as it is there's room for wounded traders to wander out of flight path. More creative bridges and doors would be needed for very fun haggling.
And finally, the science I've learned.
Rollers will push a cart at 2 ticks per tile.
A cart striking a creature will deal one combat strike, usually non-fatal as it destroys the creature's leg but not their skull.
Rollers take 2 energy per tile.
You CANNOT build a windmill directly over a roller, it claims there is no nearby machine!
Rollers can push a cart into a wall or doorway, keeping them at "max speed" while allowing you to open the door at a later time.
Yaks are hilarious.
http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=6376
You're up Nayar, you have until the end of this year and the full rest of next year (7 seasons). This should let you build some fortress infrastructure that I didn't bother with.
Post by: Mr Frog on May 23, 2012, 04:36:05 pm
EDIT: Maybe put a link to the first update into the OP? There's like 8 pages of junk to go through as it is.
Post by: Naryar on May 24, 2012, 03:23:25 am
I will post updates frequently, with pictures, maybe once per season or once per two seasons.
Post by: Naryar on May 25, 2012, 01:35:26 am
I will finish my turn this week-end.
Post by: Mr Frog on May 25, 2012, 09:49:13 am
Unfortunately, I -- having the engineering flair of a slightly-rotten potato -- have been unable to come up with anything beyond "ram the minecart into the unwanted creature", which I'm sure we can agree is the minecart equivalent of cheese and crackers :(
I'm worried that I may have bitten off more than I can chew with this...
Post by: Girlinhat on May 25, 2012, 11:23:15 am
Post by: Naryar on May 25, 2012, 12:25:22 pm
Please, don't hurry :p I'm still trying to come up with something creative and original to do with minecarts.
Well I just had. It's a minecart external active defense system.
Instead of simple stone walls, put several tracks around fortress entry, with frequent wind-powered roller systems. Each of these tracks has plenty of minecarts on each.
So when a goblin puts foot on the outer track, activate the system and release minecarts ! WHAM ! Fatality !
May take more than one year and seven months, but maybe Mr. Frog wants to continue my project...
Post by: Komra on May 25, 2012, 02:18:52 pm
Post by: Mr Frog on May 25, 2012, 02:50:15 pm
Minecarts only seem to carry two units of magma at a time, so you'd probably need two magma carts operating side-by-side to fill areas before they can dry up, and even then you'd need a reservoir in case you need to do something faster than 2-4 units per cycle.
I'm thinking an easy-ish way to get magma up would be with a spiraling rampway wrapping around a long vertical pillar of gear assemblies and axles, with rollers being powered by the assemblies. I'm not fond of the potential mechanism or power requirements, though (and I think you'd also need to make the rollers out of magma-safe materials). Care would have to be taken to minimize the number of rollers needed (how many up-ramps can a single max-speed roller launch a cart up?)
Post by: Komra on May 25, 2012, 03:35:16 pm
(how many up-ramps can a single max-speed roller launch a cart up?)Sounds like our next experiment.
Post by: Aoi on May 25, 2012, 05:25:31 pm
I'm not sure why I find it so amusing, but I have the image of a dwarf crafter pulling a lever to signal that he needs more obsidian, turning around and diving for cover as a cart full of freshly-made obsidian (from those two LOVELY shimmering blue/red curtains visible outside his window...) comes slamming into the wall right next to him.
Post by: Girlinhat on May 25, 2012, 05:45:59 pm
Instead, I believe you need to "shotgun" magma and water out towards each other to collide in the middle. The problem is, I believe they're "items" while in flight, and only become liquids when they stop moving. So it may not be very easy.
Post by: Trif on May 29, 2012, 05:58:22 am
Post by: Naryar on May 29, 2012, 08:48:16 am
Post by: Naryar on May 29, 2012, 12:20:23 pm
So it has been only one season.
The dwarves were crying for beer when I arrived. Being a mostly pragmatic overlord, I accepted their demands. Booze production has been installed and booze stocks are now sufficient. After all they will not work as well without beer. May as well slaughter a few animals to give them meat... when the horse population will be a bit bigger.
(http://gametechmods.com/../uploads/images/77826kelnimar2.png)
I have started the building of the minecart active denial system (aka minecart shield). It will take a bit of time, maybe I won't have enough time to finish it, at least I can make most of the infrastructure.
(http://gametechmods.com/../uploads/images/55961kelnimar3.png)
On z-1, , on the pits of Girlinhat's caravan FUN machine, there is a lone survivor trader elf that refuses to leave. While I develop dark, minecart-y plots to break some of his limbs, they seem not to succeed for now. Let us see what the future will hold for him.
(http://gametechmods.com/../uploads/images/34364kelnimar1.png)
Migration wave and a baby have brought population to 31. I just hope the pop will not explode. Am I allowed to limit popcap to 40 ?
(http://gametechmods.com/../uploads/images/91251kelnimar4.png)
Next update will be start of year 6, then I will probably make another update at the half of year 6 and then last update at year 7, with the stockpile. That will not take more than a day from now on, I believe.
Post by: Girlinhat on May 29, 2012, 11:55:53 pm
Post by: Komra on May 30, 2012, 04:25:58 am
Post by: Naryar on May 30, 2012, 11:26:07 am
Update coming in the following hours.
Post by: Naryar on June 03, 2012, 06:40:22 am
Well, the minecart active denial system is nearly finished ! I estimate finishing it in two seasons.
Apart from building, the last half-year was quite uneventful. Just what I like for my project !
Some random goblin snatcher got off with a child. No tantrums followed, at least I didn't had any reports of it.
A bowyer went fey, and made an artifact bow. *sigh* You may kill him for being an elf sympathizer later, but he is useful for me for now as a woodcutter.
(http://gametechmods.com/../uploads/images/62603kelnimarbowyer.png)
Some mechanic got crippled by a failed experiment. Oh well.
And here's how the minecart active denial system looks for now.
z-level 0
(http://gametechmods.com/../uploads/images/58772kelnimarx0.png)
z-level +1
(http://gametechmods.com/../uploads/images/27769kelnimarx1.png)
Slightly increased the size of the communal bedroom. Oh wait, there are dwarf skeletons and two ghosts in it ? Maybe I should make a graveyard...
(http://gametechmods.com/../uploads/images/66891kelnimarskeletonsbedroom.png)
A migrant wave increased the pop to 36, which is fine for me.
(http://gametechmods.com/../uploads/images/26756kelnimarsecond.png)
Next update will be the last, in one year or maybe less, when I will have finished and tested the active minecart denial system.
Post by: Komra on June 03, 2012, 07:48:22 am
Post by: Naryar on June 03, 2012, 08:31:48 am
...You have ONE engineer? How does that work?
Six dabbling mechanics, one crippled professionnal mechanic.
Post by: Naryar on June 03, 2012, 05:24:23 pm
In Spring I welcomed the elves with Girlinhat's diplomacy machine.
(http://gametechmods.com/../uploads/images/42313kelnimarelfdiplomacy.png)
Results were mild. One dead, a few wounded with one activation of the machine. Bah.
Now for the finished minecart active denial system...
z0
(http://gametechmods.com/../uploads/images/75688kelnimarx0.png)
(starting location being that 3x3 set of rollers in the northeast, the whole thing functions clockwise. The lever for the defense system floodgates is at z-1.
z-1
(http://gametechmods.com/../uploads/images/80657kelnimarx1.png)
So yeah. It doesn't seem to work, at least not as I wanted. It starts well and quick, and then slows down and stops at the last roller station before the start (the one at the east of the workshops).. Both for push and ride options. So it's pretty unusable for goblins.
I have no idea what is the problem, rollers are in the correct direction and well powered and active though ! Especially the last roller which doesn't seem to pick up minecarts and accelerate them.
Using the thing is quite easy - you open the floodgates via lever at z-1, wait till a dwarf picks up the minecart and puts it on the track stop, and wait till a dwarf pushes it.
I also had giant kea problems (they killed one of my mechanics and stole minecarts), and a berserk mood clothier which I totally forgot and which I dogpiled with other dwarves via military, worked fine and the berserk died without harming other people durably. So I built a small basic graveyard at z-6.
(http://gametechmods.com/../uploads/images/21692kelnimar3final.png)
Final update, have noo idea how to fix that thing so I'm releasing two seasons in advance. Next player can fiddle with it and try to fix it... or just wall off the whole fort.
Here's the download: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=6418
Overseer Naryar out.
Post by: Mr Frog on June 03, 2012, 07:20:51 pm
Post by: Girlinhat on June 03, 2012, 10:16:03 pm
Post by: Mr Frog on June 04, 2012, 01:20:12 am
Post by: NCommander on June 04, 2012, 12:15:15 pm
NCommander has been contacted, modifying OP with overseer changes.
Got your message. Need to postpone ATM, as I'm still in my turn in Deathgate and do not have enough time to run both at the same time.
Post by: Girlinhat on June 04, 2012, 12:20:01 pm
Post by: Girlinhat on June 07, 2012, 11:48:38 am
Post by: tahujdt on June 07, 2012, 03:46:46 pm
Post by: Girlinhat on June 07, 2012, 07:03:50 pm
Post by: tahujdt on June 07, 2012, 08:23:22 pm
Post by: Naryar on June 08, 2012, 02:23:27 am
Also I forgot to mention, I created a burrow named "Main Fortress" which has currently all dwarves in it and which limits then to NOT go on rollers if possible, to prevent important losses.
I'll see if all rollers are in the correct direction.
Edit : Oh wait, I see what is wrong. I didn't built tracks behind rollers. Seems kinda obvious, but I just didn't thought of it.
Well I'm going to fix that ! And maybe upload another save, if tahujdt didn't start already.
Edit 2 : OK, it does work with tracks under rollers, although I see a system with minecarts bouncing back between two stations as far more effective than mine is for now, but that would require a large rebuild of minecarts.
Edit 3 : seems a group of rhesus macaques just went into the defense system at the wrong time... all crippled ! *laughs evilly*
Post by: blue sam3 on June 08, 2012, 03:49:37 am
Post by: Komra on June 08, 2012, 02:41:21 pm
Post by: tahujdt on June 08, 2012, 05:11:35 pm
Post by: therealmarauder on June 11, 2012, 11:47:31 am
I like the idea of you trying the back-and-forth active denial. I think, though, that a truly powerful active denial system would just have a stack of minecarts which would be held in a row and eventually dropped onto a long fall. The carts can get going at incredible speeds from a straight drop down a row of ramps, and that should be enough for murder. In addition, rollers don't cost that much more for power transfer, so keeping power along the entirety of the track might not be such a bad idea; a victim would stop a cart and force a (potentially dwarvenly hazardous) reset.
Post by: Sphalerite on June 11, 2012, 02:06:25 pm
Post by: darkrider2 on June 13, 2012, 10:20:45 pm
Anyway, I totally want a turn at this. :D
Post by: Naryar on June 15, 2012, 07:23:11 am
Also I would like to apply for a second turn. And I won't make it wait for ten days this time :-X
Post by: tahujdt on June 17, 2012, 11:43:11 am
Post by: Trif on June 17, 2012, 01:08:35 pm
I'll play it, if nobody objects.
And, by the way, can anyone recommend a screenshot program? I'm getting tired of the print-paste.
Post by: Trif on June 19, 2012, 10:33:59 am
Events
Three dwarfs were injured, so I built a hospital and a well at z-1.
(http://i.imgur.com/zNbkA.png)
Now they're up and crawling again.
Migrants arrived, pushing our total population to 41.
(http://i.imgur.com/8R3uz.png)
I started fixing the minecart active denial system. It seems like there are far too many rollers. I put tracks under the southwestern roller section and the minecarts rolled for one and a half laps. It should be fun once all of them are fixed.
The dwarven caravan arrived. I used the opportunity to get rid of all the elven crap and the old clothes. A flock of giant keas used the opportunity to grab the minecarts. The leopard from the elves proved to be useful. One kea plummeted into the farm plot because a caravan guard chopped its guts. Sadly, it's not butcherable.
Progress
(http://i.imgur.com/fnBB1.png)
Tracks spiral into the sky...
Findings
Wagons can't cross tracks.
Minecarts get kill lists.
(http://i.imgur.com/kfedd.png)
Post by: Naryar on June 19, 2012, 01:55:38 pm
Besides, more rollers => more speed => more FUN for invaders.
Also one of these dwarves cannot be saved. Spinal injury.
Also, you are building a dwarven rollercoaster or something ?
Post by: Trif on June 20, 2012, 10:54:24 am
Events
A mechanic got a secretive mood and produced this:
(http://i.imgur.com/lqVVJ.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/HVCTj.png)
I focused on completing Naryar's active denial system. The outpost liaison was almost the first to try it out, but she demonstrated impressive dodging skills.
I was about to shut if off to retrieve a stray minecart when a group of gray langurs showed up (small monkeys that can be found in forests and the streets of towns and in front of minecarts).
(http://i.imgur.com/eZljY.png)
Four of them got smashed, but they didn't die or retreat. Instead they picked fights with random civilians and animals. Some of them even tried to mess with the war leopard, at least that was funny.
Even though none of the monkeys managed serious injuries, they caused lots of job cancellations, so I turned the minecart system back on and activated the hunting labor on a few dwarfs. Langurs are small enough to get propelled by bolts. Those who didn't die from being shot landed unconscious on the tracks.
A few slug men also contributed to the carnage.
(http://i.imgur.com/9yIhU.png)
The minecart active denial system is a success!
Not much else happened. A baby was born, population: 42.
(http://i.imgur.com/SWKnl.png)
Here's an overview of z-level 0 at the end of year 6.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Progress
(http://i.imgur.com/pneHc.png)
z-level +20
(http://i.imgur.com/Tesp3.png)
z-level +21
Ready for Science!
Findings
The minecarts didn't stop after hitting the monkeys or the slug men. The victims flew a bit through the air and the minecarts usually overtook them. The carts seemed to become slower, anyways, some of them stopped later. I'm not entirely sure if that's because of the collisions or because of the setup, but the former seems more likely. So, to summarize, monkeys aren't perfectly elastic.
Nobody managed to dodge a minecart yet - the liaison got a very lucky moment, but she didn't actually have to dodge anything. The high dodge chance that Toady mentioned seems to apply mainly to frontal collisions, the active denial system hits from the side. Or the carts are just too fast to be dodged.
Minecarts - like hammers - are great for incapacitating enemies, but rarely kill. One gray langur survived five collisions (but the sixth got it).
Also one of these dwarves cannot be saved. Spinal injury.Well, at least he doesn't have to be fed anymore.
Also, you are building a dwarven rollercoaster or something ?Hmm, that's not bad either. Maybe one of my successors wants to modify my project.
Post by: Trif on June 27, 2012, 10:46:42 am
Events
I started a marksdwarf squad, maybe they'll be good minecart riders. They don't really like to train except if they're off-duty, though.
And because we didn't have enough sharp things for a proper minecart shotgun, I started a sand collection area and made some serrated glass disks.
(http://i.imgur.com/yLyqY.png)
A mason walked on the tracks without any apparent reason. She and her two babies didn't take the collision well.
(http://i.imgur.com/uW35R.png)
Now one baby is dead, the other one is lying in the meeting area with a broken skull, and the mother is in hospital and ecstatic.
The elves came along and brought some neat stuff.
(http://i.imgur.com/rzAiQ.png)
I used Girlinhat's auto-trader to haggle the price down.
(http://i.imgur.com/vates.png) (http://i.imgur.com/KWu9q.png)
And while I was distracted with the trading, the goblins attacked.
(http://i.imgur.com/A7eIW.png)
And, of course, the minecart active denial system was turned off to let the elves pass.
I immediately ordered the M.A.D.S.-lever to be pulled and removed the burrow on z-level 0 to get everybody underground.
The first part worked very well.
(http://i.imgur.com/xKj0R.png)
The second, not so much.
Everybody who was outside fled southwards over the tracks. The minecarts got one goblin, several animals and two dwarfs.
Thankfully, the four barely trained marksdwarfs saved the day. The swordgoblin got hit by a bolt, lost his scimitar and passed out while a dog tried to eat his helm. Two more bowgoblins got hit by minecarts, and the marksdwarfs finished them off.
The rest of the ambushers had enough for now and left.
Spoiler: Aftermath (click to show/hide)
All in all, the minecart active denial system turned out to be more effective against intelligent opponents than I thought.
(http://i.imgur.com/x4JxE.png)
And some more migrants arrived. I forgot that the population cap isn't a raw change and didn't set it to 40. Oh well, the liaison returns next autumn.
Progress
My project is completed! It's a 21z-level high tower built out of tracks and track ramps.
Getting minecarts in a high position should be useful for later; I for one placed a platform and rollers on z20 and examined at the parabolic flight paths of minecarts.
Spoiler: Setup (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Results (click to show/hide)
Findings:
Minecarts on the M.A.D.S. can be stopped after colliding with multiple large creatures. One minecart came to a halt after it hit a horse and a reindeer calf.
Goblins dodge better than monkeys. One bowgoblin jumped out of the way of a minecart that approached him frontally.
The trajectories seem realistic. I'll try it with 20 rollers next.
Post by: Gilihad on June 28, 2012, 03:24:10 am
Post by: WellBredMutt on June 29, 2012, 10:47:24 am
Post by: Trif on June 29, 2012, 02:08:56 pm
I think getting the marksdwarfs into the minecarts shouldn't be very difficult - all we need is an additional burrow on top of the stops and the marksdwarfs assigned to it. I would love to try it out, but a) I don't have any good targets right now, and b) to get them out again, you have to stop the whole M.A.D.S. - and I don't know if they will survive getting smashed into a wall. Plus, they aren't very accurate right now on their own feet, so if I did it, we would have to take the experiment with a grain of salt.
Anyway, if a siege shows up, I'll try it, and if not, my successor can do whatever.
Post by: DrKillPatient on June 29, 2012, 11:01:41 pm
- Can a melee-weapon-armed dwarf hit enemies while riding past them in a minecart?
- Does the additional momentum from the minecart will supplement the force of the swing?
- Can enemies strike at a dwarf in a minecart, and if so, do they suffer any penalty for doing so?
- If a weapon is embedded in a minecart-riding dwarf, will it be yanked out of the wielder's hands and carried along? If not, will it be pulled out of the dwarf by the advance of the minecart, subjecting him to additional blood loss?
Some more detailed ideas, if the above concepts work:
I envision a three-tile-wide tunnel with a track on either side (leaving a 1-tile-wide walkable path down the middle), down each of which are sent dwarves in minecarts (a squad per track?) in rapid succession. The dwarves ride past enemies in the tunnel and brutalize them as necessary. Since the dwarves come from inside the fortress and ride the minecarts toward the entrance of the tunnel towards (and past) the oncoming foes, they will be in an excellent position to stop anyone that attempts to flee.
Another, somewhat more ridiculous, idea: Drop an enemy into a pit, then fire four minecarts at them simultaneously, one each from N/S/E/W (floodgates would block those openings in the sides of the pit until they are fired). Place a silver-warhammer-wielding hammerdwarf in each minecart. A trash compactor, if you will.
Post by: Trif on July 01, 2012, 11:20:48 am
Events
Two elven traders just didn't want to die. I had to make a modification to the Auto-Trader to get rid of them.
(http://i.imgur.com/OYTYp.png)
I dumped a few glass disks on the hatch covers and pulled the lever. One elf dodged, the other one got sliced into bits.
The remaining elf survived way too many minecart collisions, but died after a month or so by skidding on his head.
The dwarfs were very suicidal in this season, too. They either tried to clean up a blood-covered underground track while another dwarf pushed the minecart, or wandered on the tracks for no reason. There were quite a few additions to the hospital and the graveyard. Unfortunately, one of the marksdwarfs died, too.
All this dying produced some unhappy thoughts, and a lot of dwarfs were close to tantruming. I still got some more migrants, though.
I did my last experiments, and in the process of shooting the last minecart, the dwarf who recovered the previous minecart got hit. Another dwarf went to recover the cart, and they both uncovered an ambush.
(http://i.imgur.com/UnWis.png)
The goblins went after the wounded glassmaker, who thankfully had no friends. This allowed the miner, one of the most popular dwarfs, to escape.
(http://i.imgur.com/jeN5q.png)
The active denial system was loaded, the dwarfs pulled the lever and were ordered to put three more minecarts on the tracks. The goblins were too close to try out the minecart squad, and just one death of a popular civilian might have been the end of the fortress. Instead, I placed the marksdwarfs on top of the windmill platforms.
The minecarts worked as intended.
(http://i.imgur.com/0mKvH.png)
Two marksdwarfs on the windmill level took care of the axegoblin and three crossbowgoblins were injured by minecarts, the rest fled to the north. One marksdwarf got a bolt in the leg and passed out. The third marksdwarf was late to the party and didn't get in position to fire, but tried to bash the unconscious axegoblin in the head - there might be some relation to the fact that I couldn't get him to train.
Honorable mention goes to a stray giant mantis, who first strangled the axegoblin to death, and then tore two marksgoblins limb from limb.
(http://i.imgur.com/Mvdjg.png)
The last marksgoblin was problematic because he landed on the tracks, and mantis and marksdwarf tried to engage him in melee combat. The giant mantis retreated after a few of its legs got fractured, the marksdwarf continued pushing the crossbowgoblin in the head even with a broken upper spine. Luckily, he was friendless, too.
At this point, I stopped the M.A.D.S. and let the last capable marksdwarf, the militia captain, take care of the problem. He emptied his quiver into the goblin, and bashed it in the head to no avail.
Just in time, the previously injured marksdwarf emerged from the hospital, bearing a leg cast, a crutch and a quiver filled with bolts. That was the end of the ambush.
Results: two dead dwarfs, four dead goblins. The giant mantis is fully healed.
End stats:
(http://i.imgur.com/h54nZ.png)
Progress
I finished my minecart trajectory experiments by extending the rollers to a length of 20 tiles.
(http://i.imgur.com/Kpphj.png)
Surprisingly, the resulting trajectories were identical with the previous ones using 10 rollers.
Conclusion: Using more than ten consecutive rollers is a waste of energy.
That's it for me, here is the save (http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=6601).
Advice for my successor
Don't forget to set the population cap! Don't make my mistake.
The dwarfs are still pretty unhappy. I'm especially concerned about the mayor - she hates her rooms and she hates dwarfs complaining about their dead friends. I ordered a few platinum bars to be made, maybe some platinum furniture will cheer her up.
Putting a wall at the end of the roller platform could transform it into a high altitude shotgun - that might be a more practical application than examining flight paths.
Only two marksdwarfs are left, reinforcements might be a good idea.
And if you ignore all of this, that's fine, too.
I would like to close with an overview of the main level.
Spoiler: z-level 0 (click to show/hide)
I had fun, and it was a very carthartic experience.
Post by: tahujdt on July 02, 2012, 03:39:52 pm
Post by: Gilihad on July 13, 2012, 06:42:24 pm
Post by: Naryar on July 17, 2012, 11:45:19 am
Post by: aussieevil on July 17, 2012, 01:49:59 pm
Post by: Gilihad on August 16, 2012, 11:55:26 am
Post by: Aseaheru on August 16, 2012, 12:53:32 pm
Post by: Trif on August 16, 2012, 01:14:20 pm