19.69Fix'd.
Because now there's aliens IN SPACE!
Jim: who here would you want on your scumteam?
Jim, who do you think will be lynched today and for what reason?
Dariush or Max White will say something noobish that will get them lynched.Love you too Jim.
You were scum in the previous version of this game. Did you learn anything from that? What did you learn?Yes, thinking a little more before deciding.
What were you hoping to gain from that question? I can't see the value in asking me to predict the lynch at the very outset of the game, with quite literally nothing to go off of besides players' meta.Why Jim, that question tells me a lot about you. I'm sure your response would change depending on your faction. In that way I can get ever closer to lynching the dopps this time.
ToonyMan: Pretty early to have a realy good idea about who is going to be lynched isn't it?It's never too late to start passive-scum.
What were you hoping to gain from that question? I can't see the value in asking me to predict the lynch at the very outset of the game, with quite literally nothing to go off of besides players' meta.Why Jim, that question tells me a lot about you. I'm sure your response would change depending on your faction. In that way I can get ever closer to lynching the dopps this time.
I can't tell you that silly. I'm sure my vote speaks well though seeing as it's not moving much now.I'm sure it wouldn't, but, whatever, let's just say you're right.What were you hoping to gain from that question? I can't see the value in asking me to predict the lynch at the very outset of the game, with quite literally nothing to go off of besides players' meta.Why Jim, that question tells me a lot about you. I'm sure your response would change depending on your faction. In that way I can get ever closer to lynching the dopps this time.
How would my response change depending on what my alignment is?
Dariush: Some of that tec looks pretty cool. What item(s) would you most want to have?
IronyOwl: Good to see you again, under slightly new conditions this time. What role do you think is to be feared the most on the first night?
ToonyMan: Pretty early to have a realy good idea about who is going to be lynched isn't it?
Think0028: Seems Jim and ToonyMan have hit it right off. Do you think either of them are justified?
What, no vote?Not really, does this surprise you?
Max White, seems you're trying to pull people to take sides on an RVS spat without having to act in any particular direction yourself. Scum, much?I don't have a side in it myself, just wondering if anybody thought it was anything more then what you call a RVS spat. Is it anything more then that?
I don't have a side in it myself, just wondering if anybody thought it was anything more then what you call a RVS spat. Is it anything more then that?
Think0028: Seems Jim and ToonyMan have hit it right off. Do you think either of them are justified?
I wouldn't call those the same questions.I'm sorry if you misinterpreted what I said, but I asked if either side was justified, allowing for him to support one, the other, both or neither, rather than asking what side was more justified, forcing somebody to take sides. I would expect you to understand the distinction.
The initial question asks Think0028 to figure out which side is more valid--to mentally align himself, as it were. The secondary question asks if the two participants are "playing for serious."
As for the gravity of the spat, I imagine it's going to be going on for a pretty long time. Toony invented tunneling. If he's sunk his teeth into Jim, he'll more than likely be holding on for the rest of the game.Ah, I see. Thank you.
Smells like bullshit to me.That's your excuse for not being able to shake me, you have the most votes right now for a reason.
Ask bad RVS question => Claim mysterious motives => Don't explain when asked
Perfect justification for a vote!
Have fun, ToonyMan.
I think Jim's justified in calling it bullshit here. Toony, are you suggesting... hell, I can't even think of what you could be suggesting. Jim identified two players as generally noobish and one player as a common lurker, ergo he's scum? Do you have any justification for your vote that makes sense? At all?Yeah I do. Town Jim would have did something different. Can you prove that otherwise Think?
Smells like bullshit to me.That's your excuse for not being able to shake me, you have the most votes right now for a reason.
Ask bad RVS question => Claim mysterious motives => Don't explain when asked
Perfect justification for a vote!
Have fun, ToonyMan.I think Jim's justified in calling it bullshit here. Toony, are you suggesting... hell, I can't even think of what you could be suggesting. Jim identified two players as generally noobish and one player as a common lurker, ergo he's scum? Do you have any justification for your vote that makes sense? At all?Yeah I do. Town Jim would have did something different. Can you prove that otherwise Think?
That's your excuse for not being able to shake me, you have the most votes right now for a reason.
First, unvote Jim.What I'm asking is that how do you know Jim is so adamantly town? I feel town Jim would have did something different, however he responded in a way that is scummy to me. That is what my vote is for. You are being very scummy Think.Can you prove that Town Jim would have done something different? Burden of proof is on you here, Toony, and you're not living up to it.Smells like bullshit to me.That's your excuse for not being able to shake me, you have the most votes right now for a reason.
Ask bad RVS question => Claim mysterious motives => Don't explain when asked
Perfect justification for a vote!
Have fun, ToonyMan.I think Jim's justified in calling it bullshit here. Toony, are you suggesting... hell, I can't even think of what you could be suggesting. Jim identified two players as generally noobish and one player as a common lurker, ergo he's scum? Do you have any justification for your vote that makes sense? At all?Yeah I do. Town Jim would have did something different. Can you prove that otherwise Think?
ToonyMan, I want some justification as to why this is even evidence. How does this response prove he is scum? Why is this supposedly different from what Town Jim would do? How do you even know what Jim is thinking?
That was a reaction statement, in which you passed with flying colors, scum Jim.That's your excuse for not being able to shake me, you have the most votes right now for a reason.Are you serious?
Me having votes is a reason for a vote? And two votes from the RVS, even?
That's dumb. Duuuuuuuumb. Dummmmmmmmmmbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb. Completely unjustifiable.
This sounds suspiciously similar to the kinds of arguments and justifications for your votes during Day 2, before everything had to be rebooted.
Jim: who here would you want on your scumteam?
Toaster. Always Toaster.
I'd take Vector and Jokerman-EXE too.
Smells like bullshit to me.
Ask bad RVS question => Claim mysterious motives => Don't explain when asked
Perfect justification for a vote!
Have fun, ToonyMan.
No, I don't currently think he's town, nor do I currently think he's scum. What I do think is that you're evading my questions. You've stated that you think he's scum because he responded in a scummy way. How is his response scummy?Why are you defending him? I don't feel like answering that question yet again.
Dariush: Some of that tec looks pretty cool. What item(s) would you most want to have?
IronyOwl: Good to see you again, under slightly new conditions this time. What role do you think is to be feared the most on the first night?
ToonyMan: Pretty early to have a realy good idea about who is going to be lynched isn't it?
Think0028: Seems Jim and ToonyMan have hit it right off. Do you think either of them are justified?
Why does every question of yours reek of a leading question?
That's a fair explanation, but I'll be keeping an eye on you.As long as you have enough eyes to keep on the entire game, I wouldn't expect anything less.
Isn't this the Solifuge Method? The difference, I think, was that Solifuge actually had a reason for the way that he played.
IronyOwl: Good to see you again, under slightly new conditions this time. What role do you think is to be feared the most on the first night?Doppleganger Vigilante. Nothing seems especially dangerous just on N1, aside from the obvious.
Irony: What do you think three scum among 11 players will do to the balance of the game?My guess would be that it'll mandate that the game be pretty crazy. I'm guessing there's a dopp-opposed third party out there to complicate things a bit, and the role list might have been weighted heavier this time.
Max, what do you think of the Jim-Toony incident? You must have some opinion on it.I was thinking that perhaps ToonyMan was attempting to draw out some scum by putting a big 'EASY LYNCH HERE' sign around he's neck, then seeing who joins onto the bandwagon. Then Vector informed me that this was, in fact, common for him, so now I'm a little at a loss.
I would never do that on purpose and you're being passive-scum again.Max, what do you think of the Jim-Toony incident? You must have some opinion on it.I was thinking that perhaps ToonyMan was attempting to draw out some scum by putting a big 'EASY LYNCH HERE' sign around he's neck, then seeing who joins onto the bandwagon. Then Vector informed me that this was, in fact, common for him, so now I'm a little at a loss.
Max White. How will you try to ensure victory?
Why are you defending him? I don't feel like answering that question yet again.
Do you think it's worth looking into, then? How do you intend to figure out what's up with Toony?Max, what do you think of the Jim-Toony incident? You must have some opinion on it.I was thinking that perhaps ToonyMan was attempting to draw out some scum by putting a big 'EASY LYNCH HERE' sign around he's neck, then seeing who joins onto the bandwagon. Then Vector informed me that this was, in fact, common for him, so now I'm a little at a loss.
IronyOwl, what role would you most want? The least?Xenozoologist looks fun. Enchanter looks worthless.
Do you think it's worth looking into, then? How do you intend to figure out what's up with Toony?Well, anybody who seems to want votes might be a spore spreader, or dopp war vet, or something, so interaction might be risky. If we could get a Telepath to investigate him that would seem to be the safest method. Short of that, we lynch, as what other real option do we have? I've read the past games and it seems Org had a reputation of both useless as a townie and unstoppable of scum because people thought he was just rubbish all around so he's couldn't be scum. I would rather not give Toony a similar level of protection, but I don't want to lynch him and give him what he wants.
Jim, what did you enjoy most about yourself and/or your play last game? What did you dislike the most?
Do you think it's worth looking into, then? How do you intend to figure out what's up with Toony?Well, anybody who seems to want votes might be a spore spreader, or dopp war vet, or something, so interaction might be risky. If we could get a Telepath to investigate him that would seem to be the safest method. Short of that, we lynch, as what other real option do we have? I've read the past games and it seems Org had a reputation of both useless as a townie and unstoppable of scum because people thought he was just rubbish all around so he's couldn't be scum. I would rather not give Toony a similar level of protection, but I don't want to lynch him and give him what he wants.
I say wait until day 2, and if nothing has come up to clear things up, lynch he's ass.
Why are you coming up with reasons to not lynch ToonyMan?Fear of something bad happening, or killing somebody that was useful. But let's not allow fear to have us sitting in the dark while dopps eat our women, children and phone lines.
Town Jim would have responded differently. He would have did that because he would be town. I've played games with Jim many times. I have no evidence, it's the start of day freakin' one. You're really not getting this are you? I guess that explains the vote kukuku.Why are you defending him? I don't feel like answering that question yet again.I'm not defending him, I'm questioning you, and you haven't answered the question once yet. How is his reaction scummy? Don't say "Town Jim would have done something different", that's a circular answer. What would Town Jim have done? Why would he have done that? How do you know how Jim would normally respond? Where is your evidence?
Wait? Waiting won't help at all. You know lynching scum the first day boosts the town's chance of winning by a very significant percentage? My goal is to lynch scum today, not to wait until tomorrow and so on.Do you think it's worth looking into, then? How do you intend to figure out what's up with Toony?Well, anybody who seems to want votes might be a spore spreader, or dopp war vet, or something, so interaction might be risky. If we could get a Telepath to investigate him that would seem to be the safest method. Short of that, we lynch, as what other real option do we have? I've read the past games and it seems Org had a reputation of both useless as a townie and unstoppable of scum because people thought he was just rubbish all around so he's couldn't be scum. I would rather not give Toony a similar level of protection, but I don't want to lynch him and give him what he wants.
I say wait until day 2, and if nothing has come up to clear things up, lynch he's ass.
Jim Groovester, why are you pushing for votes against Toony when some people (Read: I) am not convinced we should lynch him yet?
Why are you coming up with reasons to not lynch ToonyMan?Fear of something bad happening, or killing somebody that was useful. But let's not allow fear to have us sitting in the dark while dopps eat our women, children and phone lines.yet?
Because I think he's scum.Unvote.
So what made you decide I was worthy of your vote? Up until now you've been throwing questions at people and you weren't using your vote at all for RVS pressure. What is it? Do I have you spooked? Are you scared big bad Jim Groovester's gonna crack you open like an egg, and spill out all your secrets for the whole world to see?
Wait? Waiting won't help at all. You know lynching scum the first day boosts the town's chance of winning by a very significant percentage? My goal is to lynch scum today, not to wait until tomorrow and so on.To me, this looks like scum trying hard to pretend to be town by giving the stock standard 'Lynch on site!' speech. If lynching the first day is as powerful as you claim it to be, better not delay then. Vote ToonyMan.
And no, I don't want to be lynched. I'm not a spore spreader, a dopp, or an anti-town role/faction of any kind.
Vote ToonyMan.
Dariush: Some of that tec looks pretty cool. What item(s) would you most want to have?Assassin bot, always.
a. What specific, concrete things will you be doing to improve your play this game?I'll be extremely careful about whom I vote and for what reason, and think twice even about RVS ones (unlike my bungled attempt against Toaster last time).
b. Of the various alien roles (i.e. non-Dopp, non-human), which would you prefer? Why?Agent Operative - two tech slots and a claim that doesn't need to be faked in case things go south.
Dariush, how would you play as a war vet?I'll openly state I am one and lurk lurk lurk.
Toony, which human role would you prefer?A bodyguard or agent.
a. What specific, concrete things will you be doing to improve your play this game?I'll be extremely careful about whom I vote and for what reason, and think twice even about RVS ones (unlike my bungled attempt against Toaster last time).
Dariush, how would you play as a war vet?I'll openly state I am one and lurk lurk lurk.
Dariush, how would you play as a war vet?I'll openly state I am one and lurk lurk lurk.
War Vet's a convenient fakeclaim for dirty rotten scum.
How is that relevant to him answering that question?
The fact that the two of you agree on this means it must have merit.No.
Irony: Why do you think Enchanter is worthless?It's a tiebreaker, or tie maker. If you need to force a no-lynch, you've probably already lost. If you need to brute-force resolve a tie, the game's probably gone all to hell anyway. Neither situation is common enough to give "I don't have to but it would be better" much overall value either.
Interesting. How would you play a vig, both townie and dopp?Dariush, how would you play as a war vet?I'll openly state I am one and lurk lurk lurk.
No? Could you explain this to me?The fact that the two of you agree on this means it must have merit.No.
And no Max. Even if every single player agrees with something doesn't mean it's right. For example, let's say everybody think Jim is town, that doesn't mean Jim is town.No? Could you explain this to me?The fact that the two of you agree on this means it must have merit.No.
If they are both townie then they are just trying to give me good advice, and I should most likely follow, even though we kill a townie (But we don't know that bit yet)
If they are both scum then Toony dies first night, HUZZAH! Who cares if it was bad advice? Scum is dead.
If one is townie and the other scum, one is giving good advice, and the other is also giving good advice while trying to blend in as a townie.
I don't see a trail of logic that leads to no.
If you take the distance between paranoia about my actions and blunt force to hunt scum as 1, then this line will lie on a mark roughly 0.347596813 units away from paranoia and, respectively, 0.652403187 units from blunt force.a. What specific, concrete things will you be doing to improve your play this game?I'll be extremely careful about whom I vote and for what reason, and think twice even about RVS ones (unlike my bungled attempt against Toaster last time).
Where is the line between paranoia about your actions and blunt force to hunt scum?
It's also worth noting that Dariush and Max White are making votes that just follow Jim's logic, which are bandwagon votes.What, seriously? Even though I clearly phrased it (and accompanied by an RVS question) as an RVS vote? Why are you so overdefensive?
As town vig I'll try to keep my head down and not get lynched, knowing that I probably won't be NK'd; as dopp vig I'll either claim Kook PWV or Kook vig and openly ask any guardians to protect me.Interesting. How would you play a vig, both townie and dopp?Dariush, how would you play as a war vet?I'll openly state I am one and lurk lurk lurk.
Hehe, if anything, you're being overly defensive by reacting so strongly to what I said.It's also worth noting that Dariush and Max White are making votes that just follow Jim's logic, which are bandwagon votes.What, seriously? Even though I clearly phrased it (and accompanied by an RVS question) as an RVS vote? Why are you so overdefensive?
Hmm. Every time I roll town I always get too excited and get too aggressive from square one.
The votes right now show that everybody besides me only has one vote, that shows that there really is no determination at all because there's no pressure at all, besides me of course. It's also worth noting that Dariush and Max White are making votes that just follow Jim's logic, which are bandwagon votes.
I'll try for an extend because there are still a few players that haven't said anything, which will help in our fight against scum. Vector and Pandarsenic are definitely two who should be playing more.
*poke* Game has started.
Pandar, are you planning on being active in this game at all? What was your greatest mistake last game?Now that I'm actually here, yes.
Panda: Why you no post?See above. Max White, your reasons for voting Toony (and unvoting and then voting for him again...) are unconvincing. Do you ACTUALLY believe he's scum? I don't believe you believe that.
PAAAAAANDAAAAAAR: In addition to my earlier question (preferred role), who here would you most want as scum? Who would you most want as a vig? Who would you least want as a war vet?Preferred role: Alien Exterminator. I can't help it. It's too much fun. :I
My explanations are crappy how? Why did you unvote me so easily?
Jim: If you're not convinced by what Toony said, why unvote him?
See above. Max White, your reasons for voting Toony (and unvoting and then voting for him again...) are unconvincing. Do you ACTUALLY believe he's scum? I don't believe you believe that.What do we define as scum? Is he a dopp? Maybe, maybe not, he could be some alien. Either way, I feel he is anti-town and up to some sneaky shit. If somebody more scummy comes along I will reconsider my vote, but right now he is the scummiest I can see.
See above. Max White, your reasons for voting Toony (and unvoting and then voting for him again...) are unconvincing. Do you ACTUALLY believe he's scum? I don't believe you believe that.What do we define as scum? Is he a dopp? Maybe, maybe not, he could be some alien. Either way, I feel he is anti-town and up to some sneaky shit. If somebody more scummy comes along I will reconsider my vote, but right now he is the scummiest I can see.
My reason for unvoting and voting again had to do with me being in transit and unsure about internet status, rather then anything game related. Would you rather me be a little paranoid about it and give everybody a heads up that I might not be able to play the rest of the game, or risk just dropping out of activity without a word?
Right, so Jim thinks I'm more scummy than Toony (whom he has declared scum) because I missed the start of the game. Duly noted.
That's a lot of words to give no reasons, waffle on whether you think Toony is scum, and then try to frame shift things towards your almost-absence.You never asked for reasoning bro, you just said you weren't convinced with the reasons given. I assumed you had read the posts, or was that a stretch? Do you want reasons? I'll save myself a post and throw them in anyway, feel free to not read them at your leisure.
You scumbukkit.
Even if every single player agrees with something doesn't mean it's right. For example, let's say everybody think Jim is town, that doesn't mean Jim is town.And you can just as easily replace town with scum in that quote, it works just as well.
Town Jim would have did something different.but from what I have seen that isn't true. I got to see Scum Jim working first hand back in the last third party when he was the brother, and scum Jim explains himself a little more, Town Jim is such a self righteous prick that he will settle with saying that he thinks somebody is scum as justification, as long as there is evidence laying around to back it.
That's your excuse for not being able to shake me, you have the most votes right now for a reason.but this is hardly good reasoning for a vote. Yes Toony, he has the most votes because one was a RVS vote, and the other was yours. You invented your own reason to try and frame Jim. And after all,
Even if every single player agrees with something doesn't mean it's right. For example, let's say everybody think Jim is town, that doesn't mean Jim is town.
Lots of people have also bandwagon'd ONTO Toony. Is this suspicious to you?If every time somebody placed a vote on somebody that already had a vote, we called bandwagon, we wouldn't get very far. Sometimes a man gotta vote where a man gotta vote, or something similar but more feminine for Vector. I'm not going to start questioning myself about my vote, that honer goes to everybody else in the game :P, but as for think and he's vote.
ToonyMan, I want some justification as to why this is even evidence. How does this response prove he is scum? Why is this supposedly different from what Town Jim would do? How do you even know what Jim is thinking?Demanding evidence for an opinion is hardly a bandwagon. Evidence we still aren't nearly close to hearing.
Jim plays like Jim when he's town and he plays like Webadict when he's scum. As scum, they rely heavily on coercing people into following via force of personality. They act completely confident and rely on people falling in line behind them.Thank you, I'll keep that in mind, for future and current games.
And? That doesn't change what I said as being the truth, that was just one of infinite examples.Even if every single player agrees with something doesn't mean it's right. For example, let's say everybody think Jim is town, that doesn't mean Jim is town.And you can just as easily replace town with scum in that quote, it works just as well.
So your not worried about me being suspecting of toony, your worred of me not suspecting toony, and expressing this by voting toony. What is this I don't even... You know I'm just going to not give a damn, lest I get drunk from the wine.Voting someone you don't really think is scum is not a town thing to do. And if you're scum, you'll very rarely REALLY believe the person you're voting is scum, after all...
Right, so Jim thinks I'm more scummy than Toony (whom he has declared scum) because I missed the start of the game. Duly noted.
Nope.
Just a little incentive to make sure your lazy ass keeps posting. I'll swap it back to ToonyMan once I'm satisfied you're actually going to play this game.
Don't blame me if people get fed up with your habitually shitty activity.
How is that relevant to him answering that question?
I know what I'm doing.
So your not worried about me being suspecting of toony, your worred of me not suspecting toony, and expressing this by voting toony. What is this I don't even... You know I'm just going to not give a damn, lest I get drunk from the wine.Voting someone you don't really think is scum is not a town thing to do. And if you're scum, you'll very rarely REALLY believe the person you're voting is scum, after all...
It's also worth noting that Dariush and Max White are making votes that just follow Jim's logic, which are bandwagon votes.What, seriously? Even though I clearly phrased it (and accompanied by an RVS question) as an RVS vote? Why are you so overdefensive?
Vector: Would you rather have a mind shield or an anti-tech field? Would your alignment change the answer to that question?
a. What specific, concrete things will you be doing to improve your play this game?I'll be extremely careful about whom I vote and for what reason, and think twice even about RVS ones (unlike my bungled attempt against Toaster last time).
Dariush, how would you play as a war vet?I'll openly state I am one and lurk lurk lurk.
Toony: Do you think your tunnelvision is doing anything for you this game? Who else do you suspect besides Jim?Oh it's working. I suspect Max White and Vector as well. It doesn't seem like Vector is playing at all.
Do you have any suspicious party besides Dariush and who are they?
Do you really feel it necessary to leave your vote on him to get him to post when you say Toony is scum? This rings hollow to me.
I know what I'm doing.
You bungled your tags there- fixed them for you. I was quoting this to say it was scummy (IE before I saw the tag.)
Voting someone you don't really think is scum is not a town thing to do. And if you're scum, you'll very rarely REALLY believe the person you're voting is scum, after all...Saying somebody doesn't believe their own vote is a some what sketchy thing. You can't really prove it ever, it's just a subjective way to call somebody scum for having an opinion.
We'll need one more extend vote, and I really want to hear answers.Information is valuable, let's get some more of it.
I'll see if I can cook up some more stuff.
Jim: Do you really have nowhere better to place your vote? And why now, in this game?
Now there is something interesting here.Voting someone you don't really think is scum is not a town thing to do. And if you're scum, you'll very rarely REALLY believe the person you're voting is scum, after all...Saying somebody doesn't believe their own vote is a some what sketchy thing. You can't really prove it ever, it's just a subjective way to call somebody scum for having an opinion.
Also take note that Pandar is focusing this tactic on me, and not Think. I have something Think does not, that being a RVS vote from somebody who hasn't been very active. Combine Pandas weakly justified vote, with Toony's defensive vote, and together they managed to even the vote tally and save Toonys ass for the mean time.
Did I get that right? We have three each. Can we get a votecount to be sure?
Jim: Do you really have nowhere better to place your vote? And why now, in this game?
Better than ToonyMan, the player you're voting? If you've got a recommendation beyond the one you consider best I'd love to hear it.
Unless you're talking about Pandarsenic.
Yes, I do have a better place to put my vote since I swapped my vote back to ToonyMan now that Pandarsenic's posting somewhat.
As for why this game, well, I'm only in so many games. If somebody decided to not post at all after being repeatedly prodded to do so in another game, I'd vote for them in that game too. I'm fucking tired of people not playing the games they signed up for.
Vector: Can you please restate your suspicions of Dariush in full, as well as provide posts (if any) and reasoning?
Because I think he's scum.Unvote.
That is pretty much all I wanted to know.
Jim had already outlined he's reasons. I expected Town Jim to not bother why he thought Toony was scum, while scum Jim was more likely to try and give reasons. Had he been a little more defensive and started going over he's reasoning in summery, I would have suspected him.
Because I had a policy of saving my vote, when I did vote Jim thought I was going to start tunnelling him, and that's when your going to see scum Jim most defensive about he's opinion. Although Panda seems to disagree with this, I'm not taking Panda on he's word right now.
In the last third party, he was the brother and I was mafia.
Sad to say, the relationship ended abruptly when I stabbed Darvi in the neck and he turned out to be townie, handing the game to the assassin (Toaster, I think) with special mention to the survivor (Toaster).
ToonyMan:That was one statement I made, not the whole picture. I felt like I was being very hard on him, not soft.
Why exactly were you suspicious of Jim? Your vote was an RVS, and you pursued very little with that - you didn't even talk to him besides softballing him a few times at the very start, ending with "It was a reaction test which you passed with flying colours" (paraphrased) for a question.
In fact, the only claim you have against Jim is "Town Jim would have done something different." (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=87352.msg2393454#msg2393454) What? Are you really that lost here?It was better than nothing at that time in the game. There wasn't much else to go on and it works for me.
Now here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=87352.msg2401612#msg2401612), you say that your other suspicion is Max White. The whole thing just feels like a cover up to me - finding some reason for the lingering RV, then joining in a bandwagon (you had little prior interaction with Max as said below) on somebody just suspicious enough for nobody to go back and check.I was genuinely suspicious of Max White and I still am. I also changed my vote when I did to prevent myself from dying.
This makes the whole thing even worse; what you've been doing to Jim here is definitely not typical of a top suspicion. Hell, you'd expect that you'd put some pressure on such a high priority, no?I have no idea what you're saying her.
It's not really a scum-vote, is it? Just a bus to distance yourself from your fellow?
And you got your suspicions for Max from this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=87352.msg2393331#msg2393331), but it's your second one and you make no previous mention of him. How did this condemnation actually com into your head in the first place? How is he being passive-scum? How come you've never actually put any pressure on him (ever), or any other sort of active probing to confirm this?There has to be a post without a previous mentioning of him, there's a beginning to everything. I called him passive-scum numerous times beforehand because that's exactly what he was doing. He wasn't voting people much and his pressure was and is still nonexistence. I have plenty pressure on him, more pressure than the majority of people playing this game. Everything your questioning here is lies and more lies. It's completely contradictory to what I am doing.
Jim had already outlined he's reasons. I expected Town Jim to not bother why he thought Toony was scum, while scum Jim was more likely to try and give reasons. Had he been a little more defensive and started going over he's reasoning in summery, I would have suspected him.
Toony: Who do you think is scummier- Jim or Max?Right. I think Jim is scummier than Max so I'll be moving my vote back now.
Jim: I see. At what point is lurking lynchable?
This is the Too Townie argument in a different hat. Since when is explaining your vote scummy or defensive?
What was the purpose of the vote cycle here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=87352.msg2396675#msg2396675) and here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=87352.msg2397779#msg2397779)?
Max: You've been awfully keen on twisting people's posts around. Why bring me up in defense to Pandarsenic? Why misinterpret Pandar's post which was clearly based in saying that you voted Toony despite not truly believing it? Why avoid Pandar's question about the bandwagon?
Lots of people have also bandwagon'd ONTO Toony. Is this suspicious to you?If every time somebody placed a vote on somebody that already had a vote, we called bandwagon, we wouldn't get very far. Sometimes a man gotta vote where a man gotta vote, or something similar but more feminine for Vector. I'm not going to start questioning myself about my vote, that honer goes to everybody else in the game :P, but as for think and he's vote.ToonyMan, I want some justification as to why this is even evidence. How does this response prove he is scum? Why is this supposedly different from what Town Jim would do? How do you even know what Jim is thinking?Demanding evidence for an opinion is hardly a bandwagon. Evidence we still aren't nearly close to hearing.
So your not worried about me being suspecting of toony, your worred of me not suspecting toony, and expressing this by voting toony. What is this I don't even... You know I'm just going to not give a damn, lest I get drunk from the wine.
Could you show some of these posts I twisted?
What question? Provide a quote, or link, or anything, and I will do my best to respond.
If you make a claim, do your best to provide me with a post or two of what you mean, else how am I meant to know exactly what your talking about?
Here, you ignore the question of whether more people hopping on Toony is suspicious or not, and answer it with an vague statement about your vote and bring up my vote as a justification for what you're doing. You never address the issue of what you think about the other people.I assumed what I thought was clear, but I guess not. For that I apologise. Not particularly suspicious, as the 'lots' of people who were bandwagoning were you are I, and to a degree we both had reasons. What I meant was that I didn't think it was really bandwagoning, like Toony had implied.
I had assumed you'd be able to recall discussions you were involved in by description, but apparently not.Yes, I'm going to know what you mean when you say question I did not answer, despite the fact that I thought I did, and the posts I was twisting, despite the fact that I didn't think I was. I'm totally going to remember what I didn't do.
The "Too Townie" argument is the argument that someone is playing too much of a town game, and must therefore be scum.Thank you.
This is the Too Townie argument in a different hat. Since when is explaining your vote scummy or defensive?
Jim had already outlined he's reasons. I expected Town Jim to not bother why he thought Toony was scum, while scum Jim was more likely to try and give reasons. Had he been a little more defensive and started going over he's reasoning in summery, I would have suspected him.And the next two posts should cover it.
Because I had a policy of saving my vote, when I did vote Jim thought I was going to start tunnelling him, and that's when your going to see scum Jim most defensive about he's opinion. Although Panda seems to disagree with this, I'm not taking Panda on he's word right now.
Jokerman-EXE: Hey buddy, you still breathing? You sort of vanished after a single post. How do you think scumtells for newer players differ from the old hands?
Jokerman-EXE: What the hell? Where are you, and what have you been doing? Provide us with an exhaustive list of your suspicions in full and supply reasoning as well as citations for each.
Jokerman-EXE: If you end up getting lynched for not being active and were a townie, I'm going to be just a little annoyed. If you were a Tough Doppelganger, would you take the effort to remove anybody with tec that could kill you, or lay low and hope for the best?
Overall I'm just watching the arguments go back and forth for now, so maybe something else will stand out as time goes.Sideline-scum. Start up your own argument when you get the chance will you?
tl;dr Max White is my top pick thus far, though it's a very close lead over Think. Overall I'm just watching the arguments go back and forth for now, so maybe something else will stand out as time goes.
Pandar:Directed originally at Max. Relevant to both at the time, though.So your not worried about me being suspecting of toony, your worred of me not suspecting toony, and expressing this by voting toony. What is this I don't even... You know I'm just going to not give a damn, lest I get drunk from the wine.Voting someone you don't really think is scum is not a town thing to do. And if you're scum, you'll very rarely REALLY believe the person you're voting is scum, after all...
Is this directed at Max, Jim, or both?
Now there is something interesting here.Voting someone you don't really think is scum is not a town thing to do. And if you're scum, you'll very rarely REALLY believe the person you're voting is scum, after all...Saying somebody doesn't believe their own vote is a some what sketchy thing. You can't really prove it ever, it's just a subjective way to call somebody scum for having an opinion.
Also take note that Pandar is focusing this tactic on me, and not Think. I have something Think does not, that being a RVS vote from somebody who hasn't been very active. Combine Pandas weakly justified vote, with Toony's defensive vote, and together they managed to even the vote tally and save Toonys ass for the mean time.
Did I get that right? We have three each. Can we get a votecount to be sure?
VOTE FOR ME FUCKERI'm going to be honest with you Pandar, this made me laugh, out loud, to myself, and the peope around me looked at me like I had lost my marbles. :P
DO IT
DO IT BITCH
You don't believe I'm scum. You're attacking me to try to get me off of you. Nice try. Now roll over and flip Dopp already.
And I can't see any reason why anything Max White said about Jim would be valid. This is a combination of that it seems to have no ties to reality and that Max White is obviously scum.
This is the Too Townie argument in a different hat. Since when is explaining your vote scummy or defensive?
What was the purpose of the vote cycle here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=87352.msg2396675#msg2396675) and here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=87352.msg2397779#msg2397779)?
Too Townie argument? Could you clarify on that point?
Also, I will go over this again, for those of you unwilling to read the thread. Unvoting and voting again was not because of anything ingame, but rather real life related. I am currently at my parents place, and wasn't sure if I would have internet, as warned about in the first post you linked to. I even gave a condition for a replace if I couldn't keep playing. I didn't want people bandwagoning on my vote while I couldn't change it, so I removed it. When I found I did have internet access, I put my vote back on. It was just a safeguard in case I couldn't be active.
I even made a note to myself so I would remember what was going on. Hell, I even did the exact same thing in the other game I'm in right now. Are we all clear now as to why I had to unvote and revote?
I have been over this one with Vector. READ THE THREAD. Since your Jim.Jim had already outlined he's reasons. I expected Town Jim to not bother why he thought Toony was scum, while scum Jim was more likely to try and give reasons. Had he been a little more defensive and started going over he's reasoning in summery, I would have suspected him.And the next two posts should cover it.
Because I had a policy of saving my vote, when I did vote Jim thought I was going to start tunnelling him, and that's when your going to see scum Jim most defensive about he's opinion. Although Panda seems to disagree with this, I'm not taking Panda on he's word right now.
Also, I'm doing a lot of answering, and not much hunting. Perhaps I should begin to address that, don't want to get distracted from what I should be doing after all.
IronyOwl: You seem to be avoiding conflict so far. What is your opinion of Think?
tl;dr Max White is my top pick thus far, though it's a very close lead over Think. Overall I'm just watching the arguments go back and forth for now, so maybe something else will stand out as time goes.
You aren't really answering my question...Hehe, if anything, you're being overly defensive by reacting so strongly to what I said.It's also worth noting that Dariush and Max White are making votes that just follow Jim's logic, which are bandwagon votes.What, seriously? Even though I clearly phrased it (and accompanied by an RVS question) as an RVS vote? Why are you so overdefensive?
Dariush: So is your vote still an RV or does it have a purpose now?Let's see... Twisting my words (my initial vote didn't have anything to do with Jim's logic and he knew it), being overdefensive, avoiding questions, not scumhunting at all... yeah, definitely a purposeful vote.
Yet you never actually say it is an RVS vote. Is it or isn't it? If so, do you actually think he is scum? If not, what is your full case? In either case, who else do you suspect?It is, see right above. My scumlist: Pandar for looking like jester, Irony for lurking, Vector for being too focused on me and Max aaand... well, that's pretty much it. There's not enough information for a definitive list.
Those who vote for the claimed PWV first are probably scum who want to get him off his hands. Though that's only my thoughts, since I've never been in a paranormal with PWV.Dariush, how would you play as a war vet?I'll openly state I am one and lurk lurk lurk.
Maybe I don't understand what's going on here, but how does "lurk lurk lurk" ever benefit the town?
Toony, here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=87352.msg2402055#msg2402055) you state that your vote on Jim was 'just one statement', implying that either that was an RVS vote or a bullshit one, and in your next post you without any explanation move your vote back to him. Care to explain?I moved my vote back to him because I have higher suspicions of Jim than Max, although all of Max White's responses since then have been very scummy too. One of the reasons I moved to Max was to prevent myself from dying, now that the moment is over I was able to move my vote back.
Too Townie (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Too_Townie)Why do I need stuff on Jim? You want me to collect evidence he is town now? How about I look for scum instead?
I don't buy your case on him at all. One or two games does not give you grand insight into meta. Do you have anything else on him?
I understand why you said you moved your vote. I still don't get the purpose. Why bother removing your vote at all? It's not like whoever replaced you couldn't move it.
If that's the case I'm going to vote Max White as well since it's the only option I have right now since the day is going to end in 3 hours.Bandwagon much, bro? :P
I'm going to go with my gut and unvote ToonyMan and vote Max White. I'm going to use how he didn't answer one of my questions as pretense for the vote but really he's been giving me weird vibes all game and his buddying up to me by thinking me town with his crappy meta argument has me worried.
If that's the case I'm going to vote Max White as well since it's the only option I have right now since the day is going to end in 3 hours.
If you're town, the only way you can save yourself from the lynch is by scumhunting well in advance of it. Gaming votes to save yourself is scummy fucking bullshit and you should never, ever, ever do that.
Lynches are valuable town resources. They're the primary way the town investigates its suspicions, so it's absolutely critical that the town make each and every one count, by lynching the top suspects with excellent arguments. Even if it's a mislynch, it narrows down the field and forces the town to reevaluate their suspicions, helping them get closer and closer to scum.
It's true that UltraValican could have saved himself, but he would've screwed over the town by doing that.
Now if you want to annoy me, you will say I did something and show no evidence for it. If I said you were ignoring one of my questions, I would quote it.
What exactly makes you an authority on my meta, and why would I be town or scum based on some silly meta test you came up with on the spot that isn't really accurate anyway?
You're making me nervous calling me town for that reason (and that reason alone), instead of the usual ones like 'he's hunting' or 'he's active' or 'he's interested in finding scum.'
What exactly makes you an authority on my meta, and why would I be town or scum based on some silly meta test you came up with on the spot that isn't really accurate anyway?(Answer from the perspective of when it was asked)
You're making me nervous calling me town for that reason (and that reason alone), instead of the usual ones like 'he's hunting' or 'he's active' or 'he's interested in finding scum.'
I will be taking it like a man since I still have 4 votes on me to Max's 3.*Sheds manly tear*
Like a man!
ToonyMan:That was one statement I made, not the whole picture. I felt like I was being very hard on him, not soft.
Why exactly were you suspicious of Jim? Your vote was an RVS, and you pursued very little with that - you didn't even talk to him besides softballing him a few times at the very start, ending with "It was a reaction test which you passed with flying colours" (paraphrased) for a question.
In fact, the only claim you have against Jim is "Town Jim would have done something different." (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=87352.msg2393454#msg2393454) What? Are you really that lost here?It was better than nothing at that time in the game. There wasn't much else to go on and it works for me.
Now here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=87352.msg2401612#msg2401612), you say that your other suspicion is Max White. The whole thing just feels like a cover up to me - finding some reason for the lingering RV, then joining in a bandwagon (you had little prior interaction with Max as said below) on somebody just suspicious enough for nobody to go back and check.I was genuinely suspicious of Max White and I still am. I also changed my vote when I did to prevent myself from dying.
Everything your questioning here is lies and more lies. It's completely contradictory to what I am doing.
I don't have people backing me.
Why do you need people backing you to make a case on someone?
Max White, why were you trying to butter me up like a piece of toast?Buddying? I saw a conflict and chose the less scummy looking side. What, are you saying we should have lynched you instead?
Toony, which human role would you prefer?Dariush: Was this a random vote?
Max White, why were you trying to butter me up like a piece of toast?Buddying? I saw a conflict and chose the less scummy looking side. What, are you saying we should have lynched you instead?
When Pandar started to shield Toony and do he's best to chainsaw me, it was clear there was a team there, so thinking they were scum was justified, with or without your support.
Jokerman:tl;dr Max White is my top pick thus far, though it's a very close lead over Think. Overall I'm just watching the arguments go back and forth for now, so maybe something else will stand out as time goes.
Problem: You're not voting Max (or anyone.) If he's your top pick, why aren't you voting him? If he's not a good enough pick to vote, why aren't you pressing people to find a voteworthy pick? I smell someone trying to get through D1 without notice.
What the hell do ToonyMan and Pandarsenic have to do with anything.
You said I was town because I succeeded at some stupid meta test you came up with on the spot. This bugs me because 1) You don't know my meta well enough to make a good enough judgment about that, and 2) You thought I was town for just that one thing.
Why the meta test, and why would that be your only reason to think I'm town?
Why do you need people backing you to make a case on someone?
Not to make a case, just to know for sure who is what.
Quote from: Jim Groovester link=topic=87352.msg2417526#msg2417526 date=1309988789
No, I never said you were townie, just that [byour reply was good enough to resolve what side I should join[/b]. You assumed I thought you were town, I don't know why, but it is something you came to on your own.Emphasis mine.
I was presented with evidence by both you and Toony, and I sought to confirm my suspicions. Your not town in my books, you just said the right thing for me to believe your side of the argument.
You were riding the vote of the guy who looked town. In addition, you hardly did any scumhunting once you decided to ride the Toony bandwagon, just defending yourself and occasionally fielding a question to an inactive person. What happened to your questioning?
Emphasis mine.
No, I never said you were townie, just that your reply was good enough to resolve what side I should join. You assumed I thought you were town, I don't know why, but it is something you came to on your own.
I was presented with evidence by both you and Toony, and I sought to confirm my suspicions. Your not town in my books, you just said the right thing for me to believe your side of the argument.
Nope, I said that is what town jim would do, but that doesn't mean he must be town jim. Although trying to figure out what one he is would be WIFOM, so not worth the effort, and instead I just go with what was before me.
Also, what do you mean only reason? Hell no. He was acting scummy on he's own, well pandar also helped a lot there. Why would you make the assertion that my only reasoning was supporting jim?
Why do I need stuff on Jim? You want me to collect evidence he is town now? How about I look for scum instead?
Dude, you asked me to show somebody was a townie. Since when do we do that?Max: Why did you need a side? Why did you need a side on that issue but no others? How exactly does one decide between two sides when it's impossible and foolhardy to assume either is town?
I needed a side, I choose one, doesn't mean I was trying to buddy up to it, then you ask me to prove that the person who cast the first vote for that side is a townie for me to be justified? Like hell. You want a lynch, you prove somebody is scum, not show somebody is townie, so why would I bother wasting my time trying to show jim is town?
Refusal to get wrapped up in insanity that would no doubt go down as buddying anyway isn't saying he is town.
Dude, you asked me to show somebody was a townie. Since when do we do that?
Max: Why did you need a side? Why did you need a side on that issue but no others? How exactly does one decide between two sides when it's impossible and foolhardy to assume either is town?
When Pandar started to shield Toony and do he's best to chainsaw me, it was clear there was a team there, so thinking they were scum was justified, with or without your support.
Max: Why did you need a side? Why did you need a side on that issue but no others? How exactly does one decide between two sides when it's impossible and foolhardy to assume either is town?
Well, fuck. Why don't you guys completely steal all my scumhunting thunder. I was going to go to link those exact same posts, you know.
Max White, if you're not outright lying then you're certainly mincing words. Saying that I responded the way 'Town Jim' would have responded, but that doesn't mean you think I'm town, is more nuance than I care to give a shit about. Mostly because it lets you wiggle your way out of things you said, like the stuff Toaster and Think0028 pointed out.
How did you reach that conclusion, and why didn't you bring it up during Day 1?How did you not? Also, I think I did somewhere, point was the massive chainsawing, and panda even going so far as to demand I vote for him.
Or maybe you did. I can't remember.
What would doing nothing achieve? Shouldn't I try to involve myself?
Well then I guess I'm damn good at mincing words.
How did you reach that conclusion, and why didn't you bring it up during Day 1?How did you not? Also, I think I did somewhere, point was the massive chainsawing, and panda even going so far as to demand I vote for him.
Or maybe you did. I can't remember.
Jim, lordnincompoop, Vector: Information is valuable to the town, no doubt, valuable enough to post it here and let the scum know what you know as far as the night time goes?
Jim, lordnincompoop, Vector: Information is valuable to the town, no doubt, valuable enough to post it here and let the scum know what you know as far as the night time goes?
Dude, you asked me to show somebody was a townie. Since when do we do that?Again, I had misunderstood you. However, that just adds fuel to the fire that you indeed had him as town, making you saying you hadn't even more bullshittier.
I needed a side, I choose one, doesn't mean I was trying to buddy up to it, then you ask me to prove that the person who cast the first vote for that side is a townie for me to be justified? Like hell. You want a lynch, you prove somebody is scum, not show somebody is townie, so why would I bother wasting my time trying to show jim is town?
Refusal to get wrapped up in insanity that would no doubt go down as buddying anyway isn't saying he is town.
Well, I'm most likely going to be lynched, I have seen how these things go. Somebody said to claim if you were a kook, but nobody said anything for any other role, so are there roles that should reveal themselves now, especially if they are about to die?
Max White:
-snip-
Dariush: Was this a random vote?Back then, yes. His next overdefensive post changed that.
Dariush, did we ever work out whether your vote on Toony was an RVS or not?Yes, we did. Why don't you stop lurking and instead read the thread? And how about any explanation beyond your vote?
Dariush: You mean this one (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=87352.msg2405093#msg2405093)?I got confused by the post titles. I need more sleep.
Dariush: What is your scum list now that your top two picks have flipped town?IronyOwl for lurking which is unlike him, Jokerman for lurking which is like him and Max White for buddying, but he seems sufficiently pressured to allow me to observe his reactions and determine which questions need to be asked.
IronyOwl for lurking which is unlike him, Jokerman for lurking which is like him and Max White for buddying, but he seems sufficiently pressured to allow me to observe his reactions and determine which questions need to be asked.
All questioning coming after everyone comes and says something.
Well, I'm most likely going to be lynched, I have seen how these things go. Somebody said to claim if you were a kook, but nobody said anything for any other role, so are there roles that should reveal themselves now, especially if they are about to die?
So you consider "involving yourself" and "picking one side or the other" synonymous? Can't have your own opinion or stance on something, have to choose one of the people involved and ally with them for a while? That's not scummy at all.Max: Why did you need a side? Why did you need a side on that issue but no others? How exactly does one decide between two sides when it's impossible and foolhardy to assume either is town?
What would doing nothing achieve? Shouldn't I try to involve myself?
Eh, I remembered some weirdness with you and whether or not it was an RV, which now appears to not exist. Must have been thinking of a different person and/or game.Dariush, did we ever work out whether your vote on Toony was an RVS or not?Yes, we did. Why don't you stop lurking and instead read the thread? And how about any explanation beyond your vote?
Jim: Who are your other suspects? I've seen you attack Max since the beginning, and it's going to be reeeeal interesting if Max is lynched, and turns out to be town - when you haven't really fielded any other suspects.
It almost feels like you're just pounding the noobie because he can't stand up to you. Yes, the things you're pointing out are there. But surely someone else catches your eye.
Okay.You lynch people for trying to explain themselves? I lynch people for being scum.
Then you can be lynched for it.
Keep being flippant in the face of people's concerns while at the same time failing to address them. That's going to work out well for you.
Nope, that wasn't really MASSIVE CHAINSAWING. It was really all about you. Pandarsenic demanding you vote for him had nothing to do with ToonyMan, and that's the way it looked at the time.
So, again, how did you reach that conclusion? Asking "How did you not?" is not an answer.See above. Max White, your reasons for voting Toony (and unvoting and then voting for him again...) are unconvincing. Do you ACTUALLY believe he's scum? I don't believe you believe that.When I vote for Toony, he retaliates, with really abstract reasoning too. No really, he didn't believe I really, really feel strongly about my vote? That is the weakest reasoning I have ever seen that somebody has taken seriously.
He even went so far as to say that the votes on Toony were just a bandwagonLots of people have also bandwagon'd ONTO Toony.He wanted to protect Toony, thinking that they were working together isn't unreasonable.It also smells a lot like rolefishing.As other people have pointed out, Max White, that question is blatant role-fishing.Very well.
Okay.You lynch people for trying to explain themselves? I lynch people for being scum.
Then you can be lynched for it.
Keep being flippant in the face of people's concerns while at the same time failing to address them. That's going to work out well for you.
Nope, that wasn't really MASSIVE CHAINSAWING. It was really all about you. Pandarsenic demanding you vote for him had nothing to do with ToonyMan, and that's the way it looked at the time.
So, again, how did you reach that conclusion? Asking "How did you not?" is not an answer.
See above. Max White, your reasons for voting Toony (and unvoting and then voting for him again...) are unconvincing. Do you ACTUALLY believe he's scum? I don't believe you believe that.When I vote for Toony, he retaliates, with really abstract reasoning too. No really, he didn't believe I really, really feel strongly about my vote? That is the weakest reasoning I have ever seen that somebody has taken seriously.
Lots of people have also bandwagon'd ONTO Toony.He wanted to protect Toony, thinking that they were working together isn't unreasonable.
It also smells a lot like rolefishing.
As other people have pointed out, Max White, that question is blatant role-fishing.Very well.
Well, if you're not going to fight it, then I have no reason to reconsider.I intend to fight, but I don't think I will win. I ask if it would be appropriate to share any info, and you accuse me of role fishing. From here on any attempt to defend myself is no longer a townie explaining them self, but a scum mincing words to you.
IronyOwl: Other than pouncing on the Max White bandwagon, let's hear your list of suspicions. You're attacking Dariush about his lack of suspicions, and yet I haven't really seen much from you.Admittedly, I haven't really got anything except Dariush yet.
Jim: Who are your other suspects? I've seen you attack Max since the beginning, and it's going to be reeeeal interesting if Max is lynched, and turns out to be town - when you haven't really fielded any other suspects.
It almost feels like you're just pounding the noobie because he can't stand up to you. Yes, the things you're pointing out are there. But surely someone else catches your eye.
Right, so let me get this straight.
I've got good reason to go after Max White. But that makes me scummy, but only if he flips town.
Why, it's like your prepping yourself for a nice Day 3 argument against me.
I'm not swimming in strong leads, but Dariush has caught my eye for regurgitating the suspect lists of everybody else in the game, and also lurking like a motherfucker, just like he said he would.
And you, because you're not voting anyone, ever. You're not taking stake in how the day game plays out, so let's think about what that says about you for a second, and what alternatives there are for you if you're really as disinterested in lynching as you look.
Max: No response to me? I hope it's not because I'm not voting you right this second.What? Oh, right, sorry, here we are.
So you consider "involving yourself" and "picking one side or the other" synonymous? Can't have your own opinion or stance on something, have to choose one of the people involved and ally with them for a while? That's not scummy at all.So I am allied with Jim? Isn't that putting words into my mouth?
It's also nice to know that, since that seems to be the only time you "took sides," that was the only time you were actually playing the game. Any thoughts on that?I err what? So your trying to say that lynching Toony is the only thing I have done so far, correct?
Max: It's one thing to share info, it's another to beg for it. Why those three in particular? Why painting yourself like a martyr? Are you going to do anything aside from defend yourself?
You lynch people for trying to explain themselves? I lynch people for being scum.
Toony/Pandar stuff
Well, if you're not going to fight it, then I have no reason to reconsider.I intend to fight, but I don't think I will win. I ask if it would be appropriate to share any info, and you accuse me of role fishing. From here on any attempt to defend myself is no longer a townie explaining them self, but a scum mincing words to you.
I didn't say it made you look scummy - go ahead and check. It's interesting that you react that way, though. What I was saying was that you've spent all of D2 and the vast majority of D1 on attacking Max, and if he flips town then who are you going to have? What suspicions will you push?
In fact, I would go so far as you say you're tunneling Max pretty heavily. I think it only counts as scumhunting if you're looking at everyone; attacking one person over and over again isn't real hunting.
Yes, I'm aware of how I look to you. Got a problem with it? Throw your vote at me. I, on the other hand, hold on to mine until I find a place to put it and a reason as to why.
Day ends ~10am Pacific Friday
You're not being nearly as clever as you think you are.If lying and mincing are the only two options you give me to choose from, then is all reality I am making the more honest choice. You can twist it however you like, but the choice between 'making insincere admissions like that' and saying I was just straight out lying is a fairly clear one.
You said you were really good at mincing words. I've got no reason to take you at anything other than your word, even though I know that's not what you meant. It should be obvious that making insincere admissions like that is a bad idea.
*sigh*Apart from the fact that Toony was a guard, wouldn't Pandar want to protect the guy who can give away who wanted to kill him?
I can see why you thought that but it's a complete misread of what Pandarsenic was doing. He was attacking you for your reasoning about ToonyMan. He wasn't trying to save ToonyMan from getting lynched.
Everybody accused you of rolefishing because it looked like you were trying to ask everybody else what their role information was. That's a big no no.I didn't think a roleclaim is going to achieve much for myself. Not when so many of those roles have human/dopp race choices.
And it's good that you're not planning on giving up, but don't you remember what I told everybody in BMXXIV about the only way to save yourself from a lynch? It's not by roleclaiming, it's by scumhunting.
You haven't done that yet. Did you forget? None of your posts today have anywhere approached trying to make a case. I suggest you start.I would prefer to avoid putting together any case until it is ready. I don't have enough.
So now all this mention of "picking a side" meant "picking a side to attack," not the more obvious meaning. You sure talk scummy when it suits you.So you consider "involving yourself" and "picking one side or the other" synonymous? Can't have your own opinion or stance on something, have to choose one of the people involved and ally with them for a while? That's not scummy at all.So I am allied with Jim? Isn't that putting words into my mouth?
I chose my side to attack, but I will reiterate, that doesn't mean I'm putting my trust in Jim. I pushed Toony for myself, questioning him on what I could, rather than ally.
You do. That's the only issue you seem to have "taken a side" in, and since your justification for it was some garbage about it being that or doing nothing, I can only assume that's the only thing you've done all game.It's also nice to know that, since that seems to be the only time you "took sides," that was the only time you were actually playing the game. Any thoughts on that?I err what? So your trying to say that lynching Toony is the only thing I have done so far, correct?
Well I would be interested in what makes you say that.
I would prefer to avoid putting together any case until it is ready. I don't have enough.
And this still doesn't address why the only way to "involve yourself" is to pick a target from the most currently visible dispute and bandwagon them. "Bandwagon? My arguments are my own!" you say? "Bullshit," I'm inclined to respond, when your reason for attacking them, quite literally, is that it's gotta be one or the other.
EDIT: Sorry, while cutting down those quotes to make to try and make them readable, I think I lost some of my first paragraph. Let me fix that.
Toony statred his first post off with a bandwagon vote, sort of. Well he was mimicking the vote of Think at least, then soon after goes on to say thatThat's your excuse for not being able to shake me, you have the most votes right now for a reason.but this is hardly good reasoning for a vote. Yes Toony, he has the most votes because one was a RVS vote, and the other was yours. You invented your own reason to try and frame Jim. And after all,Even if every single player agrees with something doesn't mean it's right. For example, let's say everybody think Jim is town, that doesn't mean Jim is town.Yes, I dare say I was pushing Toony on my own accord. If you want more evidence of this, try reading the thread. Your argument that this is a bandwagon is bullshit.
I involved myself, I pushed somebody, I got a scummy reply from both Toony and Pandar, and I followed through. Regardless of Jim's support.You do. That's the only issue you seem to have "taken a side" in, and since your justification for it was some garbage about it being that or doing nothing, I can only assume that's the only thing you've done all game.
Not all circumstances are mutually exclusive.Scumhunt or die.It is funny that you have already outlined my biggest problem in this.
The rest of your post is useless blabbering. I'm tired of exchanging pointless volleys with you if all you can do is make yourself out to be the victim.
It really is as simple as that. Either make a convincing case on somebody and prove that you're town by thorough scumhunting, or be lynched for being passive scum.The amount of activity going on is kind of pathetic right now.There are too many lurkers right now to make any case based on lurking. And really, inactivity is a poor reason to lynch somebody, unless it has gotten so bad you want them out regardless of role.
Also, for every victim, there is a villain. I couldn't play such a role without one.
And this still doesn't address why the only way to "involve yourself" is to pick a target from the most currently visible dispute and bandwagon them. "Bandwagon? My arguments are my own!" you say? "Bullshit," I'm inclined to respond, when your reason for attacking them, quite literally, is that it's gotta be one or the other.
EDIT: Sorry, while cutting down those quotes to make to try and make them readable, I think I lost some of my first paragraph. Let me fix that.Yes, I dare say I was pushing Toony on my own accord. If you want more evidence of this, try reading the thread. Your argument that this is a bandwagon is bullshit.
Toony statred his first post off with a bandwagon vote, sort of. Well he was mimicking the vote of Think at least, then soon after goes on to say thatThat's your excuse for not being able to shake me, you have the most votes right now for a reason.but this is hardly good reasoning for a vote. Yes Toony, he has the most votes because one was a RVS vote, and the other was yours. You invented your own reason to try and frame Jim. And after all,Even if every single player agrees with something doesn't mean it's right. For example, let's say everybody think Jim is town, that doesn't mean Jim is town.
You do. That's the only issue you seem to have "taken a side" in, and since your justification for it was some garbage about it being that or doing nothing, I can only assume that's the only thing you've done all game.
Scumhunt or die.It is funny that you have already outlined my biggest problem in this.
The rest of your post is useless blabbering. I'm tired of exchanging pointless volleys with you if all you can do is make yourself out to be the victim.
It really is as simple as that. Either make a convincing case on somebody and prove that you're town by thorough scumhunting, or be lynched for being passive scum.
The amount of activity going on is kind of pathetic right now.There are too many lurkers right now to make any case based on lurking. And really, inactivity is a poor reason to lynch somebody, unless it has gotten so bad you want them out regardless of role.
Well, I'm most likely going to be lynched, I have seen how these things go.
Somebody said to claim if you were a kook, but nobody said anything for any other role, so are there roles that should reveal themselves now, especially if they are about to die?
IronyOwl for lurking which is unlike him, Jokerman for lurking which is like him and Max White for buddying, but he seems sufficiently pressured to allow me to observe his reactions and determine which questions need to be asked.
There are too many lurkers right now to make any case based on lurking. And really, inactivity is a poor reason to lynch somebody, unless it has gotten so bad you want them out regardless of role.
Also, for every victim, there is a villain. I couldn't play such a role without one.
This scumlist is lazy. What is the difference in scumminess between in-meta lurking and not-in-meta lurking?The first indicates that nothing is out of order. The second indicates that the lurker wants to be ignored.
Why not question now?Because I don't have sufficient material to work with.
What do you gain from waiting to question that you couldn't by just questioning current non-posters after they post?That's exactly what I'm waiting for.
Why not question them on D1 material?I don't like using material from previous days unless there's been some glaring and obvious mistake which I want to explore farther. Which there wasn't.
Dariush: It's true, though; you aren't really pushing anyone. You're very defensive, haven't attacked anyone,...who are your suspects?Lrn2readplz.
Eh, I remembered some weirdness with you and whether or not it was an RV, which now appears to not exist. Must have been thinking of a different person and/or game.So, you admit that you voted me by mistake aaaand... don't change your vote. Duly noted.
Nonetheless, I don't like how you voted Toony for an RV, then didn't really bother to question him. Do you have any non-lurking suspects at all? You know, suspects that are actually scummy as opposed to just absent? Shouldn't you be scumhunting to get or improve some either way?Toony was digging a pit for himself and finally fell into it. My questioning wouldn't have changed anything. Max already dug half a pit and is now desperately trying to get out of it. The bad thing about lurkers is that they don't say anything substantial which makes it impossible to base any case on them except 'they're lurking'. What are your other suspects?
LNCP, you seem pretty relaxed down there.
Let's see - bandwagoning onto Max - check.
Parroting other people's mentions of my inactivity - check.
Scumhunting - ... ... sorry, can't find it.
The closest you came there is by carefully detailing why Toony ought to hang. After he was halfway in the noose.
What is your read on IronyOwl? What do you think should be done with lurkers in general?
Go die in a fire, lying scum.You're so adorable, I want to hug you.
I'm fine with you taking jabs at me, but I'd hardly call an RV (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=87352.msg2394083#msg2394083) a bandwagon vote.I'm not talking about that RV, I'm talking about you copying everyone else's reasons that Max ought to hang because he doesn't defend himself.
I'll call bullshit on this too. Show me the post.
Okay. Do you have anything original, or for that matter, substantial?, which is pretty much a rephrasing of Toaster's accusation.
I tell you something doesn't exist and you tell me to cite it? Lol what?Scumhunting - ... ... sorry, can't find it.[[citation_needed]]
I was absent for most of that day, and I'm not about to give up what precious little remains of my life for you.You're so adorable, I want to hug you.
Next time you try to shit on someone, make it more substantial.You're so adorable, I want to hug you.
You're paranoidal, aren't you?What is your read on IronyOwl? What do you think should be done with lurkers in general?Hah. I love these two questions: You're trying to get me to support your case on him and sentence him (and others) at the same time. You'll then likely use my words against myself, no?
I'll humour you, though. IronyOwl came in a bit late, but now that he's started hunting, he's not a high-priority target for me. Lurkers should be prodded or told off; you can't do much else.So, you plan to ignore both anybody who's scumhunting (in your weird definition of the word) and all lurkers and instead bandwagon on weak players. Duly noted.
Extend to give people more time to vote Jokerman.
Dariush, in which way does levying an ad hominem attack help build your cause against someone else's question?
You're paranoidal, aren't you?What is your read on IronyOwl? What do you think should be done with lurkers in general?Hah. I love these two questions: You're trying to get me to support your case on him and sentence him (and others) at the same time. You'll then likely use my words against myself, no?
I've caught scum once or twice looking for people who often asked questions like "What do you think of X person?" It's a way to control and redirect town activity, pointing towards targets deemed appropriate by the scumteam, distracting them from others deemed more dangerous. In general, I prefer not to ask those questions for that reason: looking for scum-teams is generally ill-advised unless you have one of them pinned, squirming, and spewing scumtells. And then, they're going to be trying desperately to distance themselves, if they've got a grain of common sense. I prefer to ask for lists of reads on all players present, in order to get the same effect with more data and with the negative effect cloaked a bit.
My read on both of them is strong town.
Only meta arguments, huh?
Anything from this game alone that makes you think they're town?
What makes you think that? Two votes are hardly enough to fret over.Two votes and two FoS, and with three scum out there and only two votes there are bound to be more on the way if it means a mislynch.
I'd imagine that most town power roles - especially investigative ones - would do well in fullclaiming and posting info on the hour of their death. It likely won't change things, but should the player flip town, that info would potentially be useful.See now that wasn't very hard was it? That was the kind of answer is I was both hoping for and expecting, but for some reasons rather than answering a, a few people chose to try and make this into an argument. I wonder why... Still, mixed answers makes for a clear choice, and I'm not exactly done for yet.
Max: The preview post button is your friend.Noted.
You may not have said he was town directly, but you damn sure meant it.I know what I mean, if you misinterpret not my fault, and what do you mean I was deflecting towards Panda? He started chainsawing me to protect he's guard. He demanded I vote for him. He drew attention to himself. I just defended my case.
Also, you deflecting attention toward Pandar there is also completely irrelevant.
Again, I had misunderstood you. However, that just adds fuel to the fire that you indeed had him as town, making you saying you hadn't even more bullshittier.
Only meta arguments, huh?
Anything from this game alone that makes you think they're town?
Uh... those are both arguments with an in-game component and a meta-component.
Stuff
*Goes to think's lurker tracker*That's not the point. The point is that you weren't pushing Toony because you thought he was scum, you were pushing him because he was scummier than Jim.
*Picks random own post*stuffYes, I dare say I was pushing Toony on my own accord. If you want more evidence of this, try reading the thread. Your argument that this is a bandwagon is bullshit.
I involved myself, I pushed somebody, I got a scummy reply from both Toony and Pandar, and I followed through. Regardless of Jim's support.
Great, more obtuse garbage. At least you're attacking someone unbidden.You do. That's the only issue you seem to have "taken a side" in, and since your justification for it was some garbage about it being that or doing nothing, I can only assume that's the only thing you've done all game.Not all circumstances are mutually exclusive.
So, you admit that you voted me by mistake aaaand... don't change your vote. Duly noted.Part of it was a mistake, yeah.
Toony was digging a pit for himself and finally fell into it. My questioning wouldn't have changed anything. Max already dug half a pit and is now desperately trying to get out of it. The bad thing about lurkers is that they don't say anything substantial which makes it impossible to base any case on them except 'they're lurking'. What are your other suspects?So you were passive about the Toony lynch, are being passive about the Max lynch, and intend to continue being passive about lurkers, despite thinking they're a serious problem. That's interesting.
Go die in a fire, lying scum.
You're so adorable, I want to hug you.
I'm fine with you taking jabs at me, but I'd hardly call an RV (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=87352.msg2394083#msg2394083) a bandwagon vote.
I'm not talking about that RV, I'm talking about you copying everyone else's reasons that Max ought to hang because he doesn't defend himself.
I'll call bullshit on this too. Show me the post.Okay. Do you have anything original, or for that matter, substantial?
, which is pretty much a rephrasing of Toaster's accusation.
[[citation_needed]]
I tell you something doesn't exist and you tell me to cite it? Lol what?
I was absent for most of that day, and I'm not about to give up what precious little remains of my life for you.
You're so adorable, I want to hug you.Next time you try to shit on someone, make it more substantial.
You're so adorable, I want to hug you.
Hah. I love these two questions: You're trying to get me to support your case on him and sentence him (and others) at the same time. You'll then likely use my words against myself, no?
You're paranoidal, aren't you?
I'll humour you, though. IronyOwl came in a bit late, but now that he's started hunting, he's not a high-priority target for me. Lurkers should be prodded or told off; you can't do much else.
So, you plan to ignore both anybody who's scumhunting (in your weird definition of the word) and all lurkers and instead bandwagon on weak players. Duly noted.
Hey there Toaster
Did you get around to doing anything d1? Realy? I saw you asking RVS questions long after everybody else had moved on. You tried to push me a little, without even voting, and you moved onto Dariush because he was making a RVS vote, but apart from that not much. Trying to avoid real attention?
Today has been a little better. You managed to put words into my mouth and blatantly lie.You may not have said he was town directly, but you damn sure meant it.I know what I mean, if you misinterpret not my fault, and what do you mean I was deflecting towards Panda? He started chainsawing me to protect he's guard. He demanded I vote for him. He drew attention to himself. I just defended my case.
Also, you deflecting attention toward Pandar there is also completely irrelevant.
Although you seem to think that your ignorance is my fault.Again, I had misunderstood you. However, that just adds fuel to the fire that you indeed had him as town, making you saying you hadn't even more bullshittier.
And then not much more, lurky lurk. Just found a nice target to sit your vote on where nobody would question you about it, and should things start to go badly for you, you can just swing your vote over to me, but as you know I am townie you would prefer to associate with me as little as possible, just push some lazy points so that people won't think a last minute vote on me is a bandwagon.
Jokerman, at least, is playing the same damned way he plays every game, except he's taking chances that I don't think he'd take as scum--getting royally pissed when folks order him to come play, etc. He feels completely different than the times I've hunted him and he flipped scum. Uh... more blue than gray, if that means anything to you.
Dariush, in which way does levying an ad hominem attack help build your cause against someone else's question?He invented some bullshit about me trying to get his support, which fact I felt compelled to point out. If you don't like it being ad hominem, you may read that as 'Stop putting words in my mouth, you scum'. The meaning would remain the same.
So you were passive about the Toony lynch, are being passive about the Max lynch, and intend to continue being passive about lurkers, despite thinking they're a serious problem. That's interesting....pretty strange hearing about passivity from someone who lurked D1 away. And I just explained my stance on lurkers - until they get in here and say something, it's impossible to tell about them anything except 'they're lurking'. When they do, the position against them may be a bit... biased.
I admittedly don't have much in the way of suspects, but I'm actually doing something about my list.Yeah. You're ignoring it.
Oh? Where did I say that he ought to hang, eh? Or, for that matter, that he doesn't defend himself? Where have I copied any reasons?Fine, you didn't want to lynch Max. Then what was the purpose of the following post?
Protip: Don't fabricate evidence. It makes you look bad.
A simple support of a newbie?Well, I'm most likely going to be lynched, I have seen how these things go.What makes you think that? Two votes are hardly enough to fret over.
Buddying is a nulltell because it relies either on associative tells (bullshit and stupid before one of them flips scum, and is stupid thereafter too because any scum worth his salt will try to pretend he never had a partner in the first place) or is plain stupid because it involves the scum consciously doing something that is risky, of limited use, and is obvious.It's easy to call anything a nulltell, thinking this way...
Lurking is a nulltell - especially on its own - because it either relies very heavily on meta, or is incredibly weak outside of D1 and without other tells to back it up. Neither condition has been fulfilled.
I'd also like to point out that you've done nothing to pursue any of your suspects, you've supplied no valid reasoning for any, and that your "buddying" accusation seems to be right off of Jim Groovester's case - with no prior signs of said suspicion while the debate raged on before you and with nothing else other than the mention.I'm waiting until Jokerman finally gets in and says something and Irony makes up his mind about whether or not there was a mistake in his accusation and what is he going to do with his vote because of it. Meanwhile I adopted Vector's tactic of going after the least pressured player, which is... *drumroll* ...you.
So, what's with the copypasta? Too afraid to slip up further?I'm not about to give up what precious little remains of my life for bolstering your ego.
Oh, wait - you're already doing it.
I've got better places to put my vote than on people who haven't slipped up and are scumhunting well. Since lurking is very much a nulltell and he hasn't thrown any scumtells, of course he'd be low on my list....which is eeeeexactly what I said. The point isn't that you're not voting them, it's that you're totally ignoring them.
Dariush: I was actually suspecting you less, but why are you blowing off LNCP's questions like that? Do you think he is scummy or is he just annoying you?What do you mean, 'blowing off questions'? I'm pretty sure I'm answering them. And yes, I thought he was scummy for reasons I outlined when I first addressed him.
Fine, you didn't want to lynch Max. Then what was the purpose of the following post?
<snip>
A simple support of a newbie?
It's easy to call anything a nulltell, thinking this way...
I'd also like to point out that you've done nothing to pursue any of your suspects, you've supplied no valid reasoning for any, and that your "buddying" accusation seems to be right off of Jim Groovester's case - with no prior signs of said suspicion while the debate raged on before you and with nothing else other than the mention.I'm waiting until Jokerman finally gets in and says something and Irony makes up his mind about whether or not there was a mistake in his accusation and what is he going to do with his vote because of it. Meanwhile I adopted Vector's tactic of going after the least pressured player, which is... *drumroll* ...you.
So, what's with the copypasta? Too afraid to slip up further?
Oh, wait - you're already doing it.
I'm not about to give up what precious little remains of my life for bolstering your ego.
I've got better places to put my vote than on people who haven't slipped up and are scumhunting well. Since lurking is very much a nulltell and he hasn't thrown any scumtells, of course he'd be low on my list....which is eeeeexactly what I said. The point isn't that you're not voting them, it's that you're totally ignoring them.
Dariush: I was actually suspecting you less, but why are you blowing off LNCP's questions like that? Do you think he is scummy or is he just annoying you?What do you mean, 'blowing off questions'? I'm pretty sure I'm answering them. And yes, I thought he was scummy for reasons I outlined when I first addressed him.
Jokerman-EXE, Dariush, lordnincompoop, why aren't you voting?
Dariush: I was actually suspecting you less, but why are you blowing off LNCP's questions like that? Do you think he is scummy or is he just annoying you?What do you mean, 'blowing off questions'? I'm pretty sure I'm answering them. And yes, I thought he was scummy for reasons I outlined when I first addressed him.
Okay. Do you have anything original, or for that matter, substantial?, which is pretty much a rephrasing of Toaster's accusation.You're paranoidal, aren't you?What is your read on IronyOwl? What do you think should be done with lurkers in general?Hah. I love these two questions: You're trying to get me to support your case on him and sentence him (and others) at the same time. You'll then likely use my words against myself, no?
If Max White doesn't pan out I'll find new suspicions. That's how the game is played. I lynch my top choice, and if that doesn't pan out, I move on.
And now you're accusing me of not scumhunting.
Yep, you're really laying down the groundwork for an argument against me.
I'm not swimming in strong leads, but Dariush has caught my eye for regurgitating the suspect lists of everybody else in the game, and also lurking like a motherfucker, just like he said he would.
Admittedly, I haven't really got anything except Dariush yet.
Lrn2readplz.
Jokerman-EXE: Why the cool and aloof demeanor? For such careful observation, four variations on 'Who are your suspects' don't seem like very insightful questions. Why are you staying away from the lynches?
...pretty strange hearing about passivity from someone who lurked D1 away.For most people, I'm sure it would be. In your case, however, I think our scumhunting was pretty comparable that day. You had more overall interaction, but most of it was reactive.
And I just explained my stance on lurkers - until they get in here and say something, it's impossible to tell about them anything except 'they're lurking'. When they do, the position against them may be a bit... biased.This has nothing to do with you voting someone and then sitting on it, and it's certainly not an excuse to do nothing at all.
Do explain.I admittedly don't have much in the way of suspects, but I'm actually doing something about my list.Yeah. You're ignoring it.
IronyOwl: Can you summarise to us your points against Dariush and reasoning for same?I didn't really like how, in the same post, he said he'd be very careful with his vote, even during RVS, and then promptly hopped onto Toony. Upon rereading, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=87352.msg2394775#msg2394775) it occurred to me that that was his first real post of the game, and he was the third vote on Toony, with an RV question, well after more interesting things were happening.
Toony was digging a pit for himself and finally fell into it. My questioning wouldn't have changed anything. Max already dug half a pit and is now desperately trying to get out of it. The bad thing about lurkers is that they don't say anything substantial which makes it impossible to base any case on them except 'they're lurking'. What are your other suspects?
So you're saying that you're perfectly willing to lynch him and not bother with other suspicions (seeing as you haven't fielded any), and if that doesn't work...you'll just act like that's totally fine. No, that's not how the game is played. That's how the scum-game is played. If your suspicions were real, then you would have multiple suspects, not one that you latch onto and not even care whether or not he's truly scum.Oh, this is rich. Really, this is just awesome.
Toaster/Everyone Else: You're saying that I'm not hunting because I asked several people what their scumlists are. But you know what I got in response?
"Bandwagon on Max first, then Dariush because *regurgitates what everyone else says about Dariush*."
"Nah man, scumhunting isn't my game. I'll just keep going with the second bandwagon."
"Don't have an answer, or can't link to it, so I'll pretend it wasn't asked."
So you know what? I'd have to say that it WAS effective scumhunting, because it pointed out how blatantly certain people in this game are coasting by without really contributing at all (OH GOD THE IRONY IS GLORIOUS).
Anyone else have anything to say?
You're tunneling Max White. Yeah, maybe that's trite, but you said here:
If Max White doesn't pan out I'll find new suspicions. That's how the game is played. I lynch my top choice, and if that doesn't pan out, I move on.
So you're saying that you're perfectly willing to lynch him and not bother with other suspicions (seeing as you haven't fielded any), and if that doesn't work...you'll just act like that's totally fine. No, that's not how the game is played. That's how the scum-game is played. If your suspicions were real, then you would have multiple suspects, not one that you latch onto and not even care whether or not he's truly scum.
And now you're accusing me of not scumhunting.
Yep, you're really laying down the groundwork for an argument against me.
HOW DARE I accuse you of something and then have it work as an argument later. Why, that would be a purely scumtacular move, doing something like pointing out your bad moves.
I'm not swimming in strong leads, but Dariush has caught my eye for regurgitating the suspect lists of everybody else in the game, and also lurking like a motherfucker, just like he said he would.
"Bandwagon on Max first, then Dariush because *regurgitates what everyone else says about Dariush*."
There's a couple examples for you.Huh, I thought they were rhetorical.
Also, what makes Jokerman scummier than LNCP? I agree, but I want your reasons.I didn't want the day to end without my vote and I didn't yet want to vote LNCP. Jokerman was beginning to tire me with his lurking.
...Stop wasting my time, please.
blablabla
bullshit
products of some diseased imagination
more bullshit
yadayadayada
...
What exactly did you intend with those questions?To pressure you and get explanation for your behaviour.
Actually, I just went through your posts. You have Jokerman down for "lurking which is like him" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=87352.msg2419996#msg2419996), and you have no interactions with him beyond that. In a later post, you also replied that there is nothing out of the ordinary (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=87352.msg2422593#msg2422593) with on-meta lurking. If you don't think in-meta lurking is noteworthy, then why do you seem to think it's a scumtell?When I said 'nothing out of order' I meant that it's less scummy than lurking when meta says you should be active. 'Less scummy', not 'not scummy'.
Additionally, your first pick was Irrony (who you FOSed, too), and since your suspicions of him don't seem to have changed much, why are you voting Jokerman - especially since you've done nothing to pursue this pick? Are you just looking for an easy lynch?Irony is doing something. Jokerman is lurking and lying.
"Don't have an answer, or can't link to it, so I'll pretend it wasn't asked.""The answer to your question is SIX posts above yours. Go hang."
This has nothing to do with you voting someone and then sitting on it, and it's certainly not an excuse to do nothing at all.I was waiting to see what Jokerman has to say. If he didn't have anything (like he doesn't), he gets my vote. It's as simple as that.
Do explain.Wait, I confused your suspect list with Vector's. Understandable, since you never gave one. All you had to say is 'Dariush is scum' and 'I don't suspect anyone else'.
So you know what? I'd have to say that it WAS effective scumhunting, because it pointed out how blatantly certain people in this game are coasting by without really contributing at all (OH GOD THE IRONY IS GLORIOUS).
Dariush: I can't help but feel like you're bullshitting me about your Jokerman vote. You sure look like you're more suspicious of LNCP. Watching Dethy taught me that you're extremely transparent with your motives. I think you want Jokerman to hang, but don't want to put forth the effort to build anything solid on him. Do you have anything to add besides "lurking lol" on him?In Dethy I didn't care one whit about transparency because webadict decided who was about to hang and who didn't and me wasting my time on concealing myself wouldn't have changed anything and anyway I was plain bored. Here and now I temporarily lost interest in LNCP (until D3) because all this waiting on the Jokerman's ubermegasuperduperhyperterapetapost where he would say everything he didn't say since the beginning of the game finally paid off... or rather didn't. If he thinks he can lurk the game away and put something useful in separate chunks, he may. If he thinks he can lurk the game away and then spew some bullshit and call it activity, he can go hang. Which he is about to do now.
I'll humour you, though. IronyOwl came in a bit late, but now that he's started hunting, he's not a high-priority target for me. Lurkers should be prodded or told off; you can't do much else.So, you plan to ignore both anybody who's scumhunting (in your weird definition of the word) and all lurkers and instead bandwagon on weak players. Duly noted.
Think and Jim: Would you rather see Jokerman or Dariush hang?
How is he bandwagonning if he's not voting?I meant attacking the same people other people are attacking, with slightly different or the same reasons.
In regards to above: I suppose your view has merit, but I still can't shake a gut feeling of BS over it. I'd be more impressed if you had specific questions to Jokerman, though.I don't have anything to ask him. He'll probably evade the questions, lie a bit, lurk away the rest of the day and then forget about them entirely. With 2-3 RL days between each action, of course.
Jim: Yes, it is. He's my #3 pick right now, behind Joker and Dariush. I wouldn't be checking the post history like that of someone I didn't suspect.
Doing it today, after eating lunch so that I won't post on an empty stomach.
I'm so sorry for flaking out so hard on this game. Real life has been fucking with me to the point where I'm almost ready to ask for a replacement; I don't want to do that, but if I don't manage to get this shit done today I'm going to ask for one.
Anyway, I'll be getting that read done in the very near future.
...Stop wasting my time, please.
blablabla
bullshit
products of some diseased imagination
more bullshit
yadayadayada
...
What exactly did you intend with those questions?To pressure you and get explanation for your behaviour.
Actually, I just went through your posts. You have Jokerman down for "lurking which is like him" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=87352.msg2419996#msg2419996), and you have no interactions with him beyond that. In a later post, you also replied that there is nothing out of the ordinary (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=87352.msg2422593#msg2422593) with on-meta lurking. If you don't think in-meta lurking is noteworthy, then why do you seem to think it's a scumtell?When I said 'nothing out of order' I meant that it's less scummy than lurking when meta says you should be active. 'Less scummy', not 'not scummy'.
Additionally, your first pick was Irrony (who you FOSed, too), and since your suspicions of him don't seem to have changed much, why are you voting Jokerman - especially since you've done nothing to pursue this pick? Are you just looking for an easy lynch?Irony is doing something. Jokerman is lurking and lying.
LNCP: You're the only one not voting now. You've spent most of today focusing on Dariush: what makes him not voteworthy? If not him, who is?
How is he bandwagonning if he's not voting?I meant attacking the same people other people are attacking, with slightly different or the same reasons.
Irony and Vector: Would you rather see Jokerman or Max hang?
LNCP: You're the only one not voting now. You've spent most of today focusing on Dariush: what makes him not voteworthy? If not him, who is?
I'm in a bit of a pickle right now because I've lost focus. Since the day's been extended, I'm going to try and spend the Tuesday reexamining the players (thank god for the LurkerTracker) and trying to patch up holes in my scumdar.
That's not the point. The point is that you weren't pushing Toony because you thought he was scum, you were pushing him because he was scummier than Jim.Yes, that is correct. I pushed the person who acted the scummyest until I thought they were scum, then I lynched the person I thought was scum. If we don't push people we see as being scummy, then we don't get anywhere.
Max: You continue to misrepresent Pandarsenic's posts against you, despite the fact that you should know better at this point. Pandar was attacking your reasoning, not running to Toony's defense, and him calling you out to vote him was him trying to:Well, he didn't manage to aggravate me, and I was willing to act on my scumpick, so if those were he's reasons for attacking me, he had pretty poor reasons. Attacking me to try and make me back down from Toony makes a lot more sense.
1) Aggravate you.
2) Show that you weren't willing to act on your scumpicks.
You can give me all the attention you want. What makes my "not much" worse than, say, Jokerman or Irony?The other stuff with the not much, although I suspect Irony as well.
So let's make it clear: what is your current read on Jim?Not scum. He could be anything, but he is not reading as scum on my radar. I'm leaning towards third party, for no coherent reason.
And Pandar didn't chainsaw anyone. He flipped town- he motives were obviously townie.
Max: Where'd you go? You had by far the most posts in this thread, but then you throw a bonkers accusation at me and vanish. You've had time to help people with their philosophy homework- why not post here?Well, I hate to pull out excuses, but you asked, so between
I'd like to add that I taught him, during the BM that just finished--and before the time of this particular post by many meatspace days--to direct the town by addressing it with allegations. You can find it in my first post of that particular game, if you would like a reference.Why yes, you did show me that, by doing it yourself, and you were townie... Assuming that I my intention is to manipulate into a mislynch based on my language choice is guessing at intention, something you taught not to do, and as such I would assume you are doing this to try for a mislynch.
We've already covered why it wasn't a chainsaw defense, and why anyone with half a brain cell to rub should have seen that immediately.Ah, but I beg to differ. I don't agree that it wasn't a chainsaw defence, and so any argument based on the assumption that I agree to this is invalid and a lie, yet you continue. You also use very emotive language to try and shame me out of taking a stance that it was a chainsaw defence, so that your assertions can be seen as true. The phrase 'why anyone with half a brain cell to rub should have seen that immediately' is there with the hope that I will not challenge this argument out of fear of looking stupid, and if I leave this lie unchallenged then Vectors other point can be taken on merit.
But then...
This one also gets points for uncharacteristic runons and sentence structure. Put it in the jumpiness category as well.It's 'uncharacteristic' for me to use runons and be jumpy? Have you... Read what I say? And in the last game you commented that I was very paranoid and jumpy. 'uncharacteristic ' is a lie.
Overreaction, and, of course, preparing the post-death bandwagon onto his lynchers. Screams noobscum.The best bit is that even if you manage to lynch me, when I flip scum, it will make it clear that I was right. Your scum, and now that there is a tie your throwing a vote on, close to the end of the day too.
Ah, yes. He isn't confident in his attacks because he has no one backing him, and that is because he turns to others supporting him... in order to know who is town and who is scum.Another of those points Vector doesn't want me to address by trying to appeal to emotion and implying that for me to make sense I have have self-esteem issues.
Either you have some self-esteem issues I didn't know about, Max White, or this makes just as little sense as it seems to at first, second, and seventeenth glances.
Furthermore, this post was completely ignored by Max White. I seem to remember some other person taking issue with not this particular instance, but a different accusation entirely shoveled under the floor ornament.No, I addressed those points once I had what I needed to address them. Blatant lie.
Asks three "strong players" for their night actions; as we all know, he did this in hope of getting some sort of information out of a townie.Nope, I didn't ask for roles, read again. I asked if information should be shared if your about to die, even though scum will also find out. I never asked for anybodies information.
... You ask us about our roles, and your explanation when questioned is that you want to know if you should claim before you die? Oh yeah, THAT makes sense.No, I did not ask for your roles. In fact the question I did ask demanded a boolean response, that is a yes, information is 'worthwhile for the town', or 'no, we shouldn't reveal anything that might be useful to scum'
Yeah, that was EXACTLY what you were hoping for and expecting out of asking for claims. Lord, you make so much sense that you should be teaching logic and a freakin' university or summat
Covers it up by accusing Groovester of tunneling.Just for the record, if I get lynched, 'I want tunnelled to death' on the coroners report. Jim was interpreting everything I said as scummy, and not questioning anybody else, tunnelling.
You didn't ask if it would be appropriate to share any info. You asked us to share info. You asked other people for their information. You are not responding to the questions asked or statements made at all, and there is STILL no demonstrated reason with any sort of logic behind it for your actions.You guys get the idea by now... I have been over this, twice. Vector really wants this as a selling point.
Ah, yes... this is why. Three good players. Ask them for their night actions, and then... the good players who know what they're doing have their roles revealed, and... what was the town supposed to do, exactly?No, three good players all either encourage or discourage revealing info before death. The town, or in this case me, are meant to take the advice.
I can't really add much to what Toaster already had to say in his own defense.This post is already getting bulky, I will address Toaster on he's own points.
The best bit is that even if you manage to lynch me, when I flip scum, it will make it clear that I was right.
Your you too vector.
Irony and Vector: Would you rather see Jokerman or Max hang?Max White. I was kind on the fence before, but then this happened:
That's not what you said earlier. "I had to pick a side so I picked the scummier side"* is decidedly different from "I attacked the scummiest player to see if they were scum."That's not the point. The point is that you weren't pushing Toony because you thought he was scum, you were pushing him because he was scummier than Jim.Yes, that is correct. I pushed the person who acted the scummyest until I thought they were scum, then I lynched the person I thought was scum. If we don't push people we see as being scummy, then we don't get anywhere.
But not enough to elaborate as to why or question me.You can give me all the attention you want. What makes my "not much" worse than, say, Jokerman or Irony?The other stuff with the not much, although I suspect Irony as well.
And would you care to look at Toonys role? He was a guard. For panda to protect he's guard is a townie move.Because he totally would have known that Toony was a guard. Somehow.
Ah, but I beg to differ. I don't agree that it wasn't a chainsaw defence, and so any argument based on the assumption that I agree to this is invalid and a lie, yet you continue.Still sticking to your retarded bullshit about that.
Was this supposed to be a slipup? It makes more sense read as "when I flip town," so I'm inclined to wonder. It's meaningless garbage and/or exactly what she just called it out as either way.Overreaction, and, of course, preparing the post-death bandwagon onto his lynchers. Screams noobscum.The best bit is that even if you manage to lynch me, when I flip scum, it will make it clear that I was right. Your scum, and now that there is a tie your throwing a vote on, close to the end of the day too.
*Toony and Panda and an exception, because Toony was a guard, so he knew Pandas alignment.Again, no fucking sense whatsoever. You really want Pandar to have been chainsawing for some goddamn reason.
Yeah, you just happen to frequently speak in such a way as to make your perfectly reasonable, townlike comments come out as scummy bullshit.Asks three "strong players" for their night actions; as we all know, he did this in hope of getting some sort of information out of a townie.Nope, I didn't ask for roles, read again. I asked if information should be shared if your about to die, even though scum will also find out. I never asked for anybodies information.
No, I did not ask for your roles. In fact the question I did ask demanded a boolean response, that is a yes, information is 'worthwhile for the town', or 'no, we shouldn't reveal anything that might be useful to scum'It just keeps happening!
Just for the record, if I get lynched, 'I want tunnelled to death' on the coroners report. Jim was interpreting everything I said as scummy, and not questioning anybody else, tunnelling."Inexplicably tunneled by three or four of the game's best players" works for me too. I like dry humor.
- Observant Guard: The bodyguard will protect the other player with their life. This variant protects against the first night-kill against their target, and will determine the identity of the attacker and pass on this information to their guarded target. The Bodyguard dies at the end of the night.
when I flip scum
*Toony and Panda and an exception, because Toony was a guard, so he knew Pandas alignment.
Just for the record, if I get lynched, 'I want tunnelled to death' on the coroners report. Jim was interpreting everything I said as scummy, and not questioning anybody else, tunnelling.
I'm going to laugh so hard if Max flips Spore Spreader...
All content coming later.
You can give me all the attention you want. What makes my "not much" worse than, say, Jokerman or Irony?The other stuff with the not much, although I suspect Irony as well.So let's make it clear: what is your current read on Jim?Not scum. He could be anything, but he is not reading as scum on my radar. I'm leaning towards third party, for no coherent reason.
And Pandar didn't chainsaw anyone. He flipped town- he motives were obviously townie.
And would you care to look at Toonys role? He was a guard. For panda to protect he's guard is a townie move.
Covers it up by accusing Groovester of tunneling.Just for the record, if I get lynched, 'I want tunnelled to death' on the coroners report. Jim was interpreting everything I said as scummy, and not questioning anybody else, tunnelling.
Jim, lordnincompoop, Vector: Information is valuable to the town, no doubt, valuable enough to post it here and let the scum know what you know as far as the night time goes?
This post is already getting bulky, I will address Toaster on he's own points.
Mmmk. Don't forget it's a 10 AM PST day end, and we've used up our extensions.
The best bit is that even if you manage to lynch me, when I flip scum, it will make it clear that I was right. Your scum, and now that there is a tie your throwing a vote on, close to the end of the day too.
I'm going to laugh so hard if Max flips Spore Spreader...
All content coming later.
Max: You continue to misrepresent Pandarsenic's posts against you, despite the fact that you should know better at this point. Pandar was attacking your reasoning, not running to Toony's defense, and him calling you out to vote him was him trying to:
1) Aggravate you.
2) Show that you weren't willing to act on your scumpicks.
Well, he didn't manage to aggravate me, and I was willing to act on my scumpick, so if those were he's reasons for attacking me, he had pretty poor reasons. Attacking me to try and make me back down from Toony makes a lot more sense.
Now, I should thank Vector for showing herself. This should be fun.
I'd like to add that I taught him, during the BM that just finished--and before the time of this particular post by many meatspace days--to direct the town by addressing it with allegations. You can find it in my first post of that particular game, if you would like a reference.
Why yes, you did show me that, by doing it yourself, and you were townie... Assuming that I my intention is to manipulate into a mislynch based on my language choice is guessing at intention, something you taught not to do, and as such I would assume you are doing this to try for a mislynch.
We've already covered why it wasn't a chainsaw defense, and why anyone with half a brain cell to rub should have seen that immediately.
But then...
Ah, but I beg to differ. I don't agree that it wasn't a chainsaw defence, and so any argument based on the assumption that I agree to this is invalid and a lie, yet you continue. You also use very emotive language to try and shame me out of taking a stance that it was a chainsaw defence, so that your assertions can be seen as true. The phrase 'why anyone with half a brain cell to rub should have seen that immediately' is there with the hope that I will not challenge this argument out of fear of looking stupid, and if I leave this lie unchallenged then Vectors other point can be taken on merit.
Ah, yes. He isn't confident in his attacks because he has no one backing him, and that is because he turns to others supporting him... in order to know who is town and who is scum.
Either you have some self-esteem issues I didn't know about, Max White, or this makes just as little sense as it seems to at first, second, and seventeenth glances.
Another of those points Vector doesn't want me to address by trying to appeal to emotion and implying that for me to make sense I have have self-esteem issues.
Most* townies don't know other townies. They can't be 100% sure of scum. That is the idea of the game. Scum know who is scum. When they lynch they can be certain in their lynch.
*Toony and Panda and an exception, because Toony was a guard, so he knew Pandas alignment.
Asks three "strong players" for their night actions; as we all know, he did this in hope of getting some sort of information out of a townie.
Nope, I didn't ask for roles, read again. I asked if information should be shared if your about to die, even though scum will also find out. I never asked for anybodies information.
So, Irony. Are you still after Dariush, or have the deaths changed your mind at all?
All: Can anyone think of a good reason not to mass claim since it's LYLO? I sure can't.
All: Can anyone think of a good reason not to mass claim since it's LYLO? I sure can't.
And I sure can't think of a reason you'd be asking this from other people without doing so yourself.
. . .
Isn't there only one town medium per game? I could be wrong on this, but I seem to remember this coming up before. BRB, checking balancing sheet...
Vector, what does Max's roleflip say about your earlier flipflopping on whether he was scum or town? What was the turning point in each decision?
Dariush, you promised some content later, but it never happened. Didn't you have anything to say about Max's response?
Jokerman, why is it that the only person you've voted, ever, was for an unorthodox definition of 'tunneling' delivered at the end of the day?
The balance sheet in the Discussion thread is out of date anyway. But my script no longer restricts most roles to only 1 or 2 per side in order to prevent lynches based on this kind of logic.
All: Can anyone think of a good reason not to mass claim since it's LYLO? I sure can't.
And I sure can't think of a reason you'd be asking this from other people without doing so yourself.
He says as he also refuses to claim.
I'll go first; I'm a Medium. The dead people of this game are a bunch of annoying cowards, and they refuse to give me any information. Oh well. We'll have to try to win without them.
LNCP: I was asking for reasons not to massclaim, not for a massclaim.
Also, I want to know what you think of Irony's case summary on Dariush (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=87352.msg2430053#msg2430053) that you asked him for?
I'm a Survivor.
And due to my love of seeking easy ways out of difficult situations, I'm willing to collaborate with you and drive a mislynch. If you're interested in my offer, PM me.
Sorry, town, but I can't take the risks of staying at your side.
LNCP: I was hoping to draw an NK so I could get everyone to claim to me and direct the town. No such luck.
You stated you snooped Jim N0 and Irony N1, but there's no N0. Can you clarify?
So, Irony. Are you still after Dariush, or have the deaths changed your mind at all?Kind of redundant now, but what about the deaths would make me not suspicious of Dariush?
Ahem.Fuck you, you treacherous maggot. Give me one good reason I should believe you're a survivor and not a dopp trying to squeeze past LYLO.
Dear dopps.
I'm a Survivor.
And due to my love of seeking easy ways out of difficult situations, I'm willing to collaborate with you and drive a mislynch. If you're interested in my offer, PM me.
Sorry, town, but I can't take the risks of staying at your side.
Modface, can you confirm that we're at LYLO?
I needed to confirm whether we were at LYLO first.What was so vital about making absolutely certain it was LYLO?
D2 starts with an apology for an absense (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=87352.msg2418502#msg2418502), which is fine- but he doesn't back it up with a wall of content. He spends the rest of the day on Dariush and Max, with only a single comment toward anyone else (Jokerman)- alll people that have been under pressure already.I had trouble refocusing, and nothing seemed like it was particularly useful or needed dealing with.
Why are you voting Vector after spending all D2 focusing solely on Max and Dariush? What makes Vector more suspicious than Dariush now? Why is Vector's flipflopping notable when I did the same thing (without votes- I said more than once I was unsure of his alignment) not worth mentioning?Her day-end analysis of Max seemed off to me, particularly the "these two are town, no wait nevermind he's not town at all and I could be wrong about the other one" part, and I'd like to broaden my horizons a bit for LYLO.
D2 starts with an apology for an absense (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=87352.msg2418502#msg2418502), which is fine- but he doesn't back it up with a wall of content. He spends the rest of the day on Dariush and Max, with only a single comment toward anyone else (Jokerman)- alll people that have been under pressure already.I had trouble refocusing, and nothing seemed like it was particularly useful or needed dealing with.
I also notice those two plus Jokerman were your primary suspects that day as well. What about that seems off to you?
Why are you voting Vector after spending all D2 focusing solely on Max and Dariush? What makes Vector more suspicious than Dariush now? Why is Vector's flipflopping notable when I did the same thing (without votes- I said more than once I was unsure of his alignment) not worth mentioning?Her day-end analysis of Max seemed off to me, particularly the "these two are town, no wait nevermind he's not town at all and I could be wrong about the other one" part, and I'd like to broaden my horizons a bit for LYLO.
Your "flipflopping" seemed more like "uncertainty"- there was never, as far as I can tell, a time when you definitively called someone town or scum and then changed your mind immediately after.
In any case, I guess I'll ask the same question right back at you: What makes me suddenly more suspicious than Dariush or Jokerman? Why is both focusing on the same suspects and going after someone else suspicious? What makes my lurking/lack of content more suspicious than anyone else's?
Irony: Why did you choose Dariush and Jim to follow?Dariush I suspected for his Toony wagoning. Jim had been giving me weird vibes, so I followed him on a hunch.
Bah, sorry for making you wait.
I'm a Psychic Warden.
I blocked Irony N1 (unsuccessfully) and Think N2 (successfully).
flip-flopped
What was so vital about making absolutely certain it was LYLO?
LNCP: Why did you choose Jim and Irony to snoop?
Also, I wasn't going to waste the roleblock on someone like Dariush.Why not?
As for why I flip-flopped on Max White, I've never seen him play scum. So, you know--asked him some questions, decided he was "townie enough for now" (because his answers were okay, if not great)You didn't call him "townie enough," though, you called him "strong town." (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=87352.msg2424327#msg2424327) How exactly do those two get confused?
got caught up in other silly shit, kept on trying to give him recommendations to improve his playstyle since I was ICing him elsewhere, and then decided that role-fishing was the last straw (and admitting to being scum was the super-last straw). I really didn't expect him to do something like that, especially as a townie.Two problems with this.
Pretty simple.Are you trying to say I should have been able to infer this on my own, or just nervously declaring your explanation sound?
What I don't really like is your leading question. What does his roleflip say about my flip-flopping? God, I don't know--generally, other people are the ones who decide what it says. I thought a guy was town and was right, and then I thought he was scum and was wrong? It says my reader is imperfectly calibrated, I guess. I'm not exactly surprised.I don't like this. You call my question leading, sort of... defer judgement, or something, and then declare it no big deal anyway. Feels weaselly.
Jokerman: Upon rereading, something reeeeeal interesting caught my eye. In the two quotes above, you claim your issue with Jim was that he was focusing exclusively on Max, not that it was necessarily scummy to do so*... except, you explicitly mention "if he flips town" both times. If your point was what you claimed it was, wouldn't that be equally applicable no matter what Max flipped?Jim: Who are your other suspects? I've seen you attack Max since the beginning, and it's going to be reeeeal interesting if Max is lynched, and turns out to be town - when you haven't really fielded any other suspects.
It almost feels like you're just pounding the noobie because he can't stand up to you. Yes, the things you're pointing out are there. But surely someone else catches your eye.
Right, so let me get this straight.
I've got good reason to go after Max White. But that makes me scummy, but only if he flips town.
Why, it's like your prepping yourself for a nice Day 3 argument against me.
I'm not swimming in strong leads, but Dariush has caught my eye for regurgitating the suspect lists of everybody else in the game, and also lurking like a motherfucker, just like he said he would.
And you, because you're not voting anyone, ever. You're not taking stake in how the day game plays out, so let's think about what that says about you for a second, and what alternatives there are for you if you're really as disinterested in lynching as you look.
I didn't say it made you look scummy - go ahead and check. It's interesting that you react that way, though. What I was saying was that you've spent all of D2 and the vast majority of D1 on attacking Max, and if he flips town then who are you going to have? What suspicions will you push?
In fact, I would go so far as you say you're tunneling Max pretty heavily. I think it only counts as scumhunting if you're looking at everyone; attacking one person over and over again isn't real hunting.
Yes, I'm aware of how I look to you. Got a problem with it? Throw your vote at me. I, on the other hand, hold on to mine until I find a place to put it and a reason as to why.
Since I'm doing something else Sunday, this is it, I'm afraid.And... it didn't occur to you to extend? You weren't really planning on just walking out on LYLO, right?
LNCP: Why did you choose Jim and Irony to snoop?
I chose both targets because I've had some trouble reading them reliably in the past for various reasons, and because they were both lower down on my scumlist. That made them good targets for a snooping, since I'd be less likely to spot something otherwise.
a. I had no idea if Dariush was scum or a terrible townie, and in either case I wasn't really worried about him. As scum, he doesn't seem particularly dangerous.What would make his potential night actions less dangerous, though?
b. When I say "townie enough," I mean "strong town." Weak town means I still feel worried and paranoid. If I don't think the read is strong, I don't like letting go of it.That's... unusual terminology. Are you saying "strong town" actually means "relative lack of scumtells," or something else? Do you think that's the definition other people use and understand?
d. From my perspective, yes, this is pretty simple and it's odd that you wouldn't see it as such.What about from my perspective? Was a lack of meta data, memory blanks, and your definitions for "townie enough" and "strong town" something I should have guessed or known immediately?
Irony: Why didn't you question Jim if he felt off to you?At the time, I wasn't sure how to. In retrospect that's not really right, but I guess I wasn't totally with it at the time. The only tangible thing Jim was really doing strangely was being direct, focused, and blunt, but not really in a scummy way- it was all stuff that was understandable as town. So, if I asked him about it, he'd probably just give the same direct, blunt answers as usual- there wasn't any way I could imagine him screwing up. That was actually one of the reasons he seemed off to me- it was almost like he was intentionally being townlike but unassailably simple.
Kinda strange hearing about me being an awful player after you admit you've never played with me before...
Irony: Why didn't you question Jim if he felt off to you?At the time, I wasn't sure how to. In retrospect that's not really right, but I guess I wasn't totally with it at the time. The only tangible thing Jim was really doing strangely was being direct, focused, and blunt, but not really in a scummy way- it was all stuff that was understandable as town. So, if I asked him about it, he'd probably just give the same direct, blunt answers as usual- there wasn't any way I could imagine him screwing up. That was actually one of the reasons he seemed off to me- it was almost like he was intentionally being townlike but unassailably simple.
b. Strong town means that I feel rather strongly that they are town, and that their particular profile of scumtells points to "town" rather than "scum" or "third party." Everyone has scumtells. The real question is which ones, and why.Then, what was it about Max's rolefishing, after everything else he had done, that turned him from "strong town" to "scum?"
I don't know that this is necessarily a definition everyone else uses and understands, but I thought it was pretty straightforward in terms of invented terminology.
I love you too, Vector. ;)How's that reread coming?
Kinda strange hearing about me being an awful player after you admit you've never played with me before...
I'm going to laugh so hard if Max flips Spore Spreader...While I'm at it, what was the purpose of this statement? Did you really think he might be a spore spreader at that point?
So... he was being his normal self, doing things that a townie does? That's not an attack.Hence why I didn't make it. I'll add that he didn't seem exactly like he always does, nor was he playing like any townie would, but nothing I could think of much traction for.
How'd you not assume the obvious from this?Dariush, how would you play as a war vet?I'll openly state I am one and lurk lurk lurk.
War Vet's a convenient fakeclaim for dirty rotten scum.
How is that relevant to him answering that question?
-snip quote pyramid-
How'd you not assume the obvious from this?
Hence why I didn't make it. I'll add that he didn't seem exactly like he always does, nor was he playing like any townie would, but nothing I could think of much traction for.
All: Can anyone think of a good reason not to mass claim since it's LYLO? I sure can't.
And I sure can't think of a reason you'd be asking this from other people without doing so yourself.
He says as he also refuses to claim.
I'll go first; I'm a Medium. The dead people of this game are a bunch of annoying cowards, and they refuse to give me any information. Oh well. We'll have to try to win without them.
I don't think I see the obviousness you do. You asked Dariush how he'd play as War Vet. He answered. Jim's comment seemed apropos of nothing, so I asked him about it.Unless I have reason to suspect otherwise, I generally assume poor accusations are meant to get the target to jump, rather than being scummy pressure or the results of misreading.
I would've thought this was obvious.You were mistaken.
Do you have anything to actually bring up, or are you going to continue this pretense of scumhunting?Still eagerly awaiting your megapost, but otherwise no. Actually, what do you think of the people you're not going back to examine?
I meant he wasn't playing like town necessarily would, not that he was playing like town necessarily wouldn't. In context, I would've thought this was obvious.Hence why I didn't make it. I'll add that he didn't seem exactly like he always does, nor was he playing like any townie would, but nothing I could think of much traction for.
Explain. I don't see how his behavior appeared unlike that which might be expected from town.
was being direct, focused, and blunt
Welp. I was really hoping Jokerman would post by the time I got back on tonight, as I read his post as suggesting he was going to post again soon. But nope! No such luck! He continues to not be here, so I continue to believe he is scum.
Jokerman: Upon rereading, something reeeeeal interesting caught my eye. In the two quotes above, you claim your issue with Jim was that he was focusing exclusively on Max, not that it was necessarily scummy to do so*... except, you explicitly mention "if he flips town" both times. If your point was what you claimed it was, wouldn't that be equally applicable no matter what Max flipped?Jim: Who are your other suspects? I've seen you attack Max since the beginning, and it's going to be reeeeal interesting if Max is lynched, and turns out to be town - when you haven't really fielded any other suspects.
It almost feels like you're just pounding the noobie because he can't stand up to you. Yes, the things you're pointing out are there. But surely someone else catches your eye.
Right, so let me get this straight.
I've got good reason to go after Max White. But that makes me scummy, but only if he flips town.
Why, it's like your prepping yourself for a nice Day 3 argument against me.
I'm not swimming in strong leads, but Dariush has caught my eye for regurgitating the suspect lists of everybody else in the game, and also lurking like a motherfucker, just like he said he would.
And you, because you're not voting anyone, ever. You're not taking stake in how the day game plays out, so let's think about what that says about you for a second, and what alternatives there are for you if you're really as disinterested in lynching as you look.
I didn't say it made you look scummy - go ahead and check. It's interesting that you react that way, though. What I was saying was that you've spent all of D2 and the vast majority of D1 on attacking Max, and if he flips town then who are you going to have? What suspicions will you push?
In fact, I would go so far as you say you're tunneling Max pretty heavily. I think it only counts as scumhunting if you're looking at everyone; attacking one person over and over again isn't real hunting.
Yes, I'm aware of how I look to you. Got a problem with it? Throw your vote at me. I, on the other hand, hold on to mine until I find a place to put it and a reason as to why.
*You reversed this position later, of course, but at the time that was your story.
All: Can anyone think of a good reason not to mass claim since it's LYLO? I sure can't.
And I sure can't think of a reason you'd be asking this from other people without doing so yourself.
He says as he also refuses to claim.
I'll go first; I'm a Medium. The dead people of this game are a bunch of annoying cowards, and they refuse to give me any information. Oh well. We'll have to try to win without them.
Your target posted and ignored you?
Huh. Don't actually care, do you?
How's that reread coming?Nah, fuck it.
Yes, I really did. And the purpose was so I could later say "I TOLD YOU SO MUAHAHAHAHAHA!".I'm going to laugh so hard if Max flips Spore Spreader...While I'm at it, what was the purpose of this statement? Did you really think he might be a spore spreader at that point?
Also, why did you take such pains to respond to hypothetical role questions as though you were that role? I assume it was to avoid slipups, but why?Last time I answered a hypothetical question like that (in Kingmaker 2 or 3) by advising the asker to go to hell, I got under a massive attack that lasted for the whole D1 and for bit of D2. I really don't want that to happen again.
LNCP: D1 you voted Toony for many reasons that had already been posted initially.
While you expounded later, you promised a post on his case on Max that never came. D2 you reaaaaally wrestle with Dariush, ignoring pretty much everything else. You do turn to Max... again, once popular opinion turns on him. Both cases were ones I personally believed, yes, but the way you stuck to popular flow sticks out.
And now here we are at lylo, and you're gliding on through without a vote. Care to explain why?
LNCP:LNCP: Why did you choose Jim and Irony to snoop?
I chose both targets because I've had some trouble reading them reliably in the past for various reasons, and because they were both lower down on my scumlist. That made them good targets for a snooping, since I'd be less likely to spot something otherwise.
I don't follow. How does snooping someone less scummy to you make for a good target selection?
Since I'm doing something else Sunday, this is it, I'm afraid.And... it didn't occur to you to extend? You weren't really planning on just walking out on LYLO, right?
Crap
Also, Meph: does someone with a mind shield know if they're targeted by a psychic ability?
Think, what are your suspicions on Jokerman D3? Apparently there's the tunnelling, and... What else? Why do you feel that way, too?
Irony: I still find your D1 actions very suspicious. Your lack of actions, to be specific. You rode an RV on someone who hadn't posted yet all the way to day end, doing your best to dodge suspicion.Interesting. In what way is not showing up at all "doing my best to dodge suspicion?" Especially since Jim (and I think someone else) called me out on it. What about that says "lurking scum" and not "unavailable" to you?
D2, as has been pointed out already, you rode the flow of popular opinion heavily.Amusing, considering your suspects were also in line with the majority. In any case, why don't you point out exactly what makes you feel I was "riding popular opinion" and not "attacking targets others also thought were scummy?"
Finally, your opening today disregards your previous scumpicks with no mention as to why. Your answer to Toaster is definitely unsatisfying to me. Why did you decide that Vector was now your highest priority target? Beyond just wanting to get information out of her, why did you pick her for your vote, and why hasn't your vote changed?This appears to be a lie, as I questioned both my scumpicks in that very post. I decided Vector was my highest priority target because she was bothering me and I didn't have any real insight on her. My scumpicks I already had a feel for, and I felt voting one of them would be a lot less productive pressure-wise. My vote hadn't changed because I was still poking her.
I suppose that's true. I didn't think of it at the time, but you are right.This is... not a satisfactory answer.
This wasn't rhetorical.So, Irony. Are you still after Dariush, or have the deaths changed your mind at all?Kind of redundant now, but what about the deaths would make me not suspicious of Dariush?
Remind me of Toaster's #1 Scumtell again?How's that reread coming?Nah, fuck it.
Yes, I really did. And the purpose was so I could later say "I TOLD YOU SO MUAHAHAHAHAHA!".You really thought it might be 3 scum, 6 townies, 2 third parties?
Last time I answered a hypothetical question like that (in Kingmaker 2 or 3) by advising the asker to go to hell, I got under a massive attack that lasted for the whole D1 and for bit of D2. I really don't want that to happen again.That explains why you answered it, not why you answered it in such a way as to avoid any potential slipups.
Get in here and commit, people.So your vote on me is a lynchvote, then. That settles that.
Irony: No, that's not what you said. You said heI said he was doing it "strangely" the first time, so you probably could have assumed I meant "moreso than usual/sensible/effective," but if you didn't, you probably would have wanted to know what I did mean after the second explanation. You dropped it without comment, though, so either you got my meaning or didn't care, but are now bringing it up again to nitpick my word choice.was being direct, focused, and blunt
without any mention of excess. Why didn't you say excess earlier if you meant it? Changing your story is a scummy move.
All questioning coming after everyone comes and says something.
Toaster: (because Meph clearly was telling me to) Which alien role would you fear the most?
Remind me of Toaster's #1 Scumtell again?Huh?
You really thought it might be 3 scum, 6 townies, 2 third parties?I wasn't counting the parties like that. Besides, SS+Survivor isn't such a balance problem as, say, Exty+Xenozoologist.
That explains why you answered it, not why you answered it in such a way as to avoid any potential slipups.Yes, I'm very careful to avoid slipups. I've been lynched for minor mistakes too often to continue being careless (whatever my actual aligment was).
You forgot "Irony was at the crime scene" in your evidence list against you. I hadn't driven that point hard because I wanted to be confident in LNCP's claim- I now am.Two problems here. Very fascinating problems, in fact.
1: Yes, meta is a point in my case against you. I keep thinking of you in that game when I'm reading this thread.So this is your LYLO-level suspicion for your top pick: "I'm reminded of that one game I played with him." Even if it's entirely accurate, a single meta example is laughably bad reasoning for LYLO unless it's extremely compelling. Unless you're trying to say I always play scum the same way (which would seem to imply the same is true of my town game), I don't see how it could be.
2: Again, you questioned someone other than your main two once out of a field of eight others. That's awfully focused.I was still somewhat busy and distracted, so I wasn't exactly on my best game. I'm still not sure exactly why this would be a scumtell though, given that you haven't claimed that what I did have was subpar in any fashion.
3: Calling it "not tunnelling" is laughable. After completely ignoring Vector D2, you jump out with a vote on her- I wanted to know why. If you had any suspicions of Vector D2, why didn't you act on them?Once again, you're trying to establish this damned if I do, damned if I don't scenario where both focusing on my scumpicks, and focusing on anyone who isn't my scumpicks, is scummy. And even by itself, I still don't see it- I vote someone I hadn't mentioned previously and was under no pressure, in order to question her, and this is scummy somehow?
As for the recent point: I didn't have any issue with your wording until you tried to go and say you said something else. Your wording is fine- being contradictory is not.That's the thing: It's not the content, it's the wording. You must have known what I meant for it to make any sense, but you didn't mention it again until it gave you a pretense for claiming I was changing my story.
And about Dariush: Really? Do you think he is a dopp? If you think he is a survivor, then you'd agree lynching him would be idiotic. Well, not you, since that'd lead to you dopps winning. If you were town you'd see that it'd be stupid.I think it's definitely possible. He was under decent pressure, and he'd know he just has to squeeze past one more day. Given that it'd also cut our chances of finding you and your buddy from 3/7 to 2/6, I'd say it could be a pretty cunning move.
I consider my case on you plenty solid enough. Lynching you today will give Joker one more chance to redeem himself if he's idiot town (highly unlikely at this point, but it could happen.)Niiiiiice. Slightly buddying up to/giving yourself a chance to copout on your #2 scumpick at LYLO just in case. That's not a scum move or anything.
Secondly, "Irony was at the crime scene" is what we call circumstantial evidence- useless without something else backing it up. How does it imply I killed Jim? "He could have, therefore he did?" The only way it makes any kind of sense to mention it on its own is if you're just piling everything you can think of onto your case, regardless of relevance.
1: Yes, meta is a point in my case against you. I keep thinking of you in that game when I'm reading this thread.So this is your LYLO-level suspicion for your top pick: "I'm reminded of that one game I played with him." Even if it's entirely accurate, a single meta example is laughably bad reasoning for LYLO unless it's extremely compelling. Unless you're trying to say I always play scum the same way (which would seem to imply the same is true of my town game), I don't see how it could be.
2: Again, you questioned someone other than your main two once out of a field of eight others. That's awfully focused.I was still somewhat busy and distracted, so I wasn't exactly on my best game. I'm still not sure exactly why this would be a scumtell though, given that you haven't claimed that what I did have was subpar in any fashion.3: Calling it "not tunnelling" is laughable. After completely ignoring Vector D2, you jump out with a vote on her- I wanted to know why. If you had any suspicions of Vector D2, why didn't you act on them?Once again, you're trying to establish this damned if I do, damned if I don't scenario where both focusing on my scumpicks, and focusing on anyone who isn't my scumpicks, is scummy. And even by itself, I still don't see it- I vote someone I hadn't mentioned previously and was under no pressure, in order to question her, and this is scummy somehow?
As for why I didn't mention it D2, I was distracted in general and distracted with Max.
As for the recent point: I didn't have any issue with your wording until you tried to go and say you said something else. Your wording is fine- being contradictory is not.That's the thing: It's not the content, it's the wording. You must have known what I meant for it to make any sense, but you didn't mention it again until it gave you a pretense for claiming I was changing my story.
And about Dariush: Really? Do you think he is a dopp? If you think he is a survivor, then you'd agree lynching him would be idiotic. Well, not you, since that'd lead to you dopps winning. If you were town you'd see that it'd be stupid.I think it's definitely possible. He was under decent pressure, and he'd know he just has to squeeze past one more day. Given that it'd also cut our chances of finding you and your buddy from 3/7 to 2/6, I'd say it could be a pretty cunning move.
I'll grant he's a dangerous lynch, but I'm not giving him a free pass for it. What about you? Why do you buy it completely?
I consider my case on you plenty solid enough. Lynching you today will give Joker one more chance to redeem himself if he's idiot town (highly unlikely at this point, but it could happen.)Niiiiiice. Slightly buddying up to/giving yourself a chance to copout on your #2 scumpick at LYLO just in case. That's not a scum move or anything.
The fact that you didn't draw attention to yourself by checking in and saying you were too busy to post. That's standard practice. You didn't bother. Most people in developed countries have an ability to access a computer at least once a day, and I assume that if a storm knocked yours out you'd inform us on one of your rare appearances.I've never been a particularly big fan of "I'm here but have nothing" style posts. Yes, I could probably post at least once a day to say that I'm not dead but have accomplished nothing, but I've never really seen the point in most cases. I'm similarly reluctant to post tidbits without dealing with everything I've got backlogged, so especially when I'm busy I tend to be sparsely verbose.
But no. You, much like Jokerman, lurky-lurked for much of the opener without apology or explanation.
I'd be interested in a response to it, I just don't think I'm going to get one.Amusing, considering your suspects were also in line with the majority.
This is a rhetorical OMGUS. Goes well with your vote, hey?
I wouldn't have mentioned the latter, because it doesn't feel like a kneejerk reaction. But this trend does show a habit of pushing away accusations with more accusations, rather than greeting them head-on.
I don't think I share your strict definition of the word. I called it a lie because I didn't see any real way he could have missed or misinterpreted it, which pretty much left poor word choice or deliberate falsehood.This appears to be a lie, as I questioned both my scumpicks in that very post.
I find your painting of a factually incorrect statement as a lie in this instance problematic.
There is a difference between being wrong and lying. Lying, in this game, usually means that one has some piece of information that is not accessible to everyone, but which is being held close to that person's chest--and about which one chooses to relay a falsehood. When the piece of information is publicly available, one would call it "misconstruing" or "incorrect" at worse.
Regardless, I'm going to count this under "extreme pet peeve" rather than "serious scumtell" right now, because despite your experience I've seen middling-novice town use it approximately a billion times in the past few weeks.
Because they weren't really that concerned with them, being confident that they were town and all? There's a big difference between answering something in a way with no scumtells, and making a deliberate and consistent decision to answer in such a way as to avoid any potential slipups.That explains why you answered it, not why you answered it in such a way as to avoid any potential slipups.
Is there some reason why a person answering a question wouldn't try to remove as many non-crucial scumtells as possible?
Because seriously, I'm not seeing your attacks. They're weak, sloppy, and--as remarked in your case against me--occasionally misleading.Which ones? All of them? What are you classifying as an attack?
This feels like the magic of hindsight (or preexisting assumptions) at work. "Max was town, so asking him why he 'picked a side' on one issue but no others was challenging him to do so, not checking an inconsistency and/or asking why he was doing that to begin with." I stand by the validity of all three questions.Max: Why did you need a side? Why did you need a side on that issue but no others? How exactly does one decide between two sides when it's impossible and foolhardy to assume either is town?
I felt like this was leading/muddying the waters.
It starts as a valid line of questioning, but then essentially challenges him to pick sides on other arguments and doubt himself.
. . .The fact that he was easy doesn't mean he wasn't scummy. In fact, I was entirely correct about him being nontown.
Dariush is the very lowest face on the totem pole. This is what we call "going for easy targets."
Irony's been better on this today, with attacking Toaster and myself, but I'm still classifying this as one of his scumtells--along with his early game's history of heavy lurking.
And now it was partially by mistake.I've been over this with Dariush already- part of it was a mistake, but there was enough left for me to still consider him scummy. I also suspected Max, but I didn't bother to mention it because the original question already did so.
That leaves us with "no suspects whatsoever, captain."
I tend to be rather interested in hypocritical statements, which makes it difficult to seem like I'm not OMGUSing. Also, I addressed his allegations as well as I was able to.I admittedly don't have much in the way of suspects, but I'm actually doing something about my list. You rattled off all the lurkers you could see, claimed you'd do something when everyone else did something, and reacted when attacked. That's not good scumhunting.
More of the "You're worse than me so I don't have to address your allegations" hogwash. I'm getting sick of this. It's basically a strong sign of an OMGUS mentality.
Completely ignores a strong allegation--admittedly, from Jokerman, but no one ever said scum couldn't infight. Follows up with speculation and shoving everything else under the covers. It's an enormous dodge.I would not call that a "strong" allegation, given that it accused me of not hunting (untrue) and bandwagoning (first vote, primary questioner at first). The more general form might have had some merit, but at the time that was completely washed out by the ridiculousness of the rest of it.
There's a big difference between answering something in a way with no scumtells, and making a deliberate and consistent decision to answer in such a way as to avoid any potential slipups."I can simply not mention John in my next sentence or I can make a deliberate and consistent decision not to mention him in any form, under any circumstances, not even under the threat of death."
Irony: I had a sudden nasty feeling from LNCP, and I wanted to check his motives before I returned focus to you. He passed the check, so I've moved on. You have a point with the timing, but that does nothing to improve your position.
<quote>
You're right- it is circumstantial. Saying I have nothing to back it up is laughable, though- you keep treating my points like they exist in a vacuum. It's not a case against you, but with the other points, it becomes enough evidence for me.
I was questioning the motives of everyone's night choices to see if their stated motives were in line with their actions prior to today. LNCP, in particular, because he could have been attempting to drive a mislynch on you. His answers were satisfactory enough to convince me you killed Jim. You forgot "Irony was at the crime scene" in your evidence list against you. I hadn't driven that point hard because I wanted to be confident in LNCP's claim- I now am.(Italicised for emphasis)
Irony: If you're not going to vote Toaster, what will you do? It's the last day of LyLo.I guess I'm going to lynch Jokerman. I really didn't want to lynch you for not showing up, which is kind of what the game seemed to be heading towards, but you're not really giving me much reason not to. The fact that your analysis is almost entirely a (somewhat flawed) examination of which roleclaims would be easiest to fake seems to confirm to me that you're not really trying. It's also odd coming from a mute medium, but that doesn't bother me as much.
Toaster is my top scumpick right now, followed closely by Think0028.
I'm sure I'll get yelled at for saying this, but it appears to me that Think is slipping through without scrutiny. Sure, it looks like I'm doing it too, but he's posting simple accusations with little to no followup. In addition, his roleclaim is the easiest one to falsify.
Unless the scumteam has Irony and LNCP - which would mean LNCP is somewhat bussing Irony with his claim - then LNCP is telling the truth. I have no outstanding reason to disbelieve Irony's claim either; Dariush would have said he was lying if that was the case.
That leaves Think and Toaster as the two hardest roleclaims to prove. Vector can't be lying about her role, since Think was blocked. Irony and LNCP are easier to believe than you two.
Vector: No, they're honestly still being obtuse jackasses. They're convinced that I'm scum and refuse to give me any information, ignoring the fact that if I was scum then at this point I wouldn't have even bothered to ask for their knowledge - because at this point it can only help town. If we lose the game, then I'm sure they'll feel appropriately moronic.
Irony: If you're not going to vote Toaster, what will you do? It's the last day of LyLo.
I have to go to work now. Hopefully, town is going to wise up in the end. I won't be here for the end of the day, so good luck guys.
Ah, woops. My suspicions are on him for doing a fat load of nothing D1, and then his accuastion to Jim which rings extremely hollow to me. Also, his attitude to me suggests that he was extremely concerned with making sure everyone knew that he was 'extremely careful' with his vote, so he had a justification for doing jack shit D1 and the vast majority of D2. It feels like most of his time went towards building up his reputation rather than towards finding out answers.
Welp. I was really hoping Jokerman would post by the time I got back on tonight, as I read his post as suggesting he was going to post again soon. But nope! No such luck! He continues to not be here, so I continue to believe he is scum.
As for my secondary suspects, I'd have to say LNCP and Irony are my secondary suspects.
Irony: I still find your D1 actions very suspicious. Your lack of actions, to be specific. You rode an RV on someone who hadn't posted yet all the way to day end, doing your best to dodge suspicion. D2, as has been pointed out already, you rode the flow of popular opinion heavily. Finally, your opening today disregards your previous scumpicks with no mention as to why. Your answer to Toaster is definitely unsatisfying to me. Why did you decide that Vector was now your highest priority target? Beyond just wanting to get information out of her, why did you pick her for your vote, and why hasn't your vote changed?
Also, protip: When somebody slips and says 'When I flip scum', that makes for a really good scumtell! If they are an introvert. Extroverts are more concerned with other peoples status, thus are more likely to slip and say what they think somebody else is.
Also, protip: When somebody slips and says 'When I flip scum', that makes for a really good scumtell! If they are an introvert. Extroverts are more concerned with other peoples status, thus are more likely to slip and say what they think somebody else is.
Someday I really really want to play a jester role. Because it'd be so fun!
Someday I really really want to play a jester role. Because it'd be so fun!
Not as fun as you'd expect (if you're me, I suppose).
And go work on that LurkerTracker, you. >:I
OH.I love this so much.
MY.
GOD.
PEOPLE.
JUST KILL MAX WHITE FOR EATING ME ALREADY.
CE scientist sucks for town- unless you're 99% sure you know someone is scum (MC ray), it's not very helpful. It'd be a bit of a LYLO breaker the other way, though- MC someone right before LYLO and use that as an extra vote.All the good town roles got themselves lynched. :-\
And being a Tough Doppleganger was soooooooooo useful for scum. I mean, look at all the roles with night-kills!
</sarcasm>
And being a Tough Doppleganger was soooooooooo useful for scum. I mean, look at all the roles with night-kills!
</sarcasm>
Well, three scum in eleven players is a favorable count to scum, so it's fair that one of you was essentially vanilla. The tech field could have helped if I had try to MC ray you.
The one thing I'm curious about is Toaster, though. His evidence on me is legitimately weak, but I'm wondering if something in his gut is telling him the truth, or if he's just grabbing what he can and it happens to be right.
Fuck yeah, finally I won a game without any stupid mistakes! Also, why did Vector block other dopps?Authenticity. Vector was trying to play as absolutely townlike as possible, in every way she could.
And why didn't you contact me? Did you think I was going to betray you?At first, I didn't know if you were really what you said you were, or a townie trying to root out the entire scumteam in one fell swoop. That wasn't a risk we could take. Later on I became more convinced you were really a survivor, but we still couldn't trust you, and didn't really need your services at the time.
And I actually planned on creating a tie so I won't risk a dopp getting lynched. All right, I'm off to read the dopp and dead chat, should prove interesting :PNow that is just hilariously treacherous. If for some reason the game didn't end at that point, you'd definitely have gotten on our good sides. :P
I think a discussion on some basic rules, like Day Length and the cap on Extensions might be useful.lolololol.
Oh, and Toaster, looks at my posting stats please. I'm asleep when the day ends, so I couldn't possibly change my vote at the last moment however much I wanted ;) And I actually planned on creating a tie so I won't risk a dopp getting lynched. All right, I'm off to read the dopp and dead chat, should prove interesting :P
24 hour extensions are a disaster. Do you know the amount of time it takes to even get an extension? About 24 hours. So, you're immediately calling for a new one as soon as you get one.
48 hour extensions are much, much more useful, as you can decide what to do with it. At least that way, you have time to decide things, instead of perma-extending. You're making people worry about time if you give only 24 hour extensions.
And don't even get me started on capping extensions. If there are 33% of people ASKING for an extension, then there's a friggin' reason for it. Capping it is so stupid.
24 hour extensions are a disaster. Do you know the amount of time it takes to even get an extension? About 24 hours. So, you're immediately calling for a new one as soon as you get one.
48 hour extensions are much, much more useful, as you can decide what to do with it. At least that way, you have time to decide things, instead of perma-extending. You're making people worry about time if you give only 24 hour extensions.
And don't even get me started on capping extensions. If there are 33% of people ASKING for an extension, then there's a friggin' reason for it. Capping it is so stupid.
Actually, since extensions only take 25% of players in my games it's actually pretty easy to get.
And the reason I said we should discuss it is because, as Irony pointed out, the time pressure can be a good thing. It forces the game along helps keep things from stagnating. The whole reason I put the extension caps IN was that we had some games where days just kept getting extended ad-nauseum and people were getting fed up with it.
24 H extensions take far too little time to get anything accomplished.Yeah, the current activity on the forums ain't enough for just 24h on a non-BM
Wait, so on the last day Jokerman-EXE was voted for only by scum and lynched? Eh... that seems wrong, somehow. Although I suppose scum could've hammered Toaster if we were playing hammers instead.LNCP's vote was on there in spirit, if that helps.
Yep! To be fair, everyone else would've had to band together to stop it, and with Dariush deciding to screw over the town, town had lost no matter what.Hm... having 3 scum and a survivor (who's basically a scum ally unless town wins easily) in an 11 person game seems like a rather too much. I mean, town can only mislynch once before losing if the survivor decides to screw over town (which they should if they're playing to win). So town would have to get 3 lynches correct out of 4 (assuming they don't end up having to off the survivor too, for 4 correct lynches out of 5) in order to win, which would be a pretty tall order.
Dangit, one of these started again and I completely missed sign-ups. I will be watching this. You'll not start a new one without me noticing this time!
>:I