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Dwarf Fortress => DF Gameplay Questions => Topic started by: Miles_Umbrae on May 03, 2018, 06:09:11 pm

Title: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: Miles_Umbrae on May 03, 2018, 06:09:11 pm
My dorfs are for some reason starting to bleed all over the place, and I don't know why.
[v]iew units indicate upper or lower body in brown, and [z]+[enter] tells me that their upper or lower body is dripping or oozing their own dwarf blood, and that their upper or lower body is melted.
The [z]tatus health screen tell me that the afflicted dwarves are suffering from "bleeding" or "heavy bleeding".

I've used DF Hack to check for syndromes and curses, but other than the random inebriated dorf I find nothing to explain the sudden bleeding.
My embark site is Joyous Wilds, and no combat messages other than the local humanoid tribesman tripping when entering the area.

Please help.  :'(

Quote
Only one hostile creature has visited me during the one and a half year my fort has existed, and it was a "WereAss"(no joke).

I have not yet bothered to dig down to even the first cavern layer yet, some magma is not the source.

I'm in a biome mostly consisting of temperate forest and a bit of mountain, too warm for ice and snowfall but not hot enough to evaporate the small bodies of water.

My dorfs can start bleeding when out in the open or inside my dug-out fort, in the middle of work or when socializing.
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: origamiscienceguy on May 03, 2018, 06:28:12 pm
It sounds like the temperature is really high.  (are you in a "scorching" loaction?
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: anewaname on May 03, 2018, 06:29:56 pm
Roughly, how many dwarfs are bleeding out of the population? Might they have been working in the same area? Did you have any combat reports involving firebreathing/magma creatures? Do you have a system that dumps stuf into magma and might have caused magma mist? (and, is the biome Scorching?)
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: random_odd_guy on May 03, 2018, 08:05:17 pm
Melting is not a syndrome. Melting means something in your fortress is so hot it kills people to stand near it.
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: Miles_Umbrae on May 03, 2018, 08:49:22 pm
Only one hostile creature has visited me during the one and a half year my fort has existed, and it was a "WereAss"(no joke).

I have not yet bothered to dig down to even the first cavern layer yet, some magma is not the source.

I'm in a biome mostly consisting of temperate forest and a bit of mountain, too warm for ice and snowfall but not hot enough to evaporate the small bodies of water.

My dorfs can start bleeding when out in the open or inside my dug-out fort, in the middle of work or when socializing.
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: §k on May 04, 2018, 12:22:03 am
It could be a forgotten beast with syndrome blood died before you breached the cavern. And some dwarfs accidentally stepped on the blood, bringing it into the fortress.
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 04, 2018, 03:12:47 am
It could be a forgotten beast with syndrome blood died before you breached the cavern. And some dwarfs accidentally stepped on the blood, bringing it into the fortress.
Highly unlikely when no cavern has been breached yet...

Posts about this kind of issue have started to appear recently, and as far as I know the cause has not been located. I don't know if it's been reported on the bug tracker.
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: Grand Sage on May 04, 2018, 08:10:04 am
I read a similar issue the other day. The Problem there was that the player had turned temperature off in the INIT file. Don't know if this helps here though.
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: Miles_Umbrae on May 04, 2018, 11:15:35 am
I read a similar issue the other day. The Problem there was that the player had turned temperature off in the INIT file. Don't know if this helps here though.

I'm playing on a pure Lazy N00b Pack install.
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: random_odd_guy on May 04, 2018, 12:04:15 pm
Any titans with fire breath showed up? Or fire in general?
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: Miles_Umbrae on May 04, 2018, 05:50:52 pm
Edited my original post to include further information.
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: Leonidas on May 05, 2018, 12:52:45 am
Do you have seasonal autosaves on? If so, can you back up to before the dwarves melted, and see if they'll do it a second time?
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: Miles_Umbrae on May 05, 2018, 05:07:51 am
Do you have seasonal autosaves on? If so, can you back up to before the dwarves melted, and see if they'll do it a second time?

Sadly I don't know when exactly it started happening.
I've tried a lot of options to try to remedy the situation, but not even using DF Hack full-heal helps for long before it happens to some other dorfs...
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: Bumber on May 05, 2018, 05:50:45 am
It might help if you uploaded a save.
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: Miles_Umbrae on May 05, 2018, 10:51:11 am
It might help if you uploaded a save.

I'll look into doing that when I'm back home in a few days.
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: Leonidas on May 05, 2018, 03:06:45 pm
Maybe your embark is only partially Joyous Wilds, and contains a second biome with evil weather.
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: Miles_Umbrae on May 05, 2018, 03:50:17 pm
Maybe your embark is only partially Joyous Wilds, and contains a second biome with evil weather.

Made doubly-triple sure that I did not have any evil biome before embarking as I intended this site to be somewhere I could experiment with different constructions and the new game-mechanics in peace.
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: origamiscienceguy on May 05, 2018, 09:31:53 pm
What was the temperature of your embark?
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: Miles_Umbrae on May 07, 2018, 08:26:13 am
What was the temperature of your embark?
Temperate.
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 07, 2018, 11:21:41 am
What was the temperature of your embark?
Temperate.
Unfortunately, that's not a temperature, but a climate zone. It's possible to get freezing tropics and scorching temperate, but I guess you haven't made a PSV world, so that shouldn't happen.
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: Miles_Umbrae on May 09, 2018, 10:35:56 am
It might help if you uploaded a save.

Where can I upload my save, and what files should be included in it?
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 09, 2018, 11:06:47 am
Saves are typically uploaded to DFFD http://dffd.bay12games.com/submit.php (http://dffd.bay12games.com/submit.php).
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: Kametec_Housen on May 09, 2018, 09:12:32 pm
And what files to include, well, the best thing to do is to go to your df_folder\data\save, find which save is you want to upload and zip its whole directory.
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 10, 2018, 03:39:09 am
The save consists of the folder "regionX" for the appropriate game (the same name you continue the game with). This folder is located in <DF>/data/save, as mentioned (sorry for failing to answer that part of the question).
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: Miles_Umbrae on May 15, 2018, 06:59:31 pm
It might help if you uploaded a save.

Finally got some time to upload the save.
Here's the link(hoping it works):
http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=13761

Unpause the game, give it a minute, pause, and look up/down along the levels for trails of blood.
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 16, 2018, 02:12:47 am
My 7Zip is unable to unpack the RAR file uploaded.
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: Miles_Umbrae on May 16, 2018, 04:01:05 am
My 7Zip is unable to unpack the RAR file uploaded.

Here's one in .zip format, just for you. ;)
http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=13762
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: Saiko Kila on May 16, 2018, 04:16:04 am
Well, my 7zip worked (v18.01).

It is a strange situation, the temperatures of some parts of dwarves do indeed reach melting temperature of fat. They start melting and bleeding. If a transfusion is performed with DFhack, then they can be saved, because bleeding stops some time after fat is gone, though it is a bit of work without scripts. But what causes that is a mystery at a first glance. In my opinion this qualifies as a bug. By the way, clothes on the offending parts also have their temperature raised, but it seems they just react to increased temperature of a body part, not the other way around.
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 16, 2018, 09:27:12 am
Looks like my 7Zip is very outdated...

As far as I can see the outdoor temperature is between 10034 and 10045 Urist, which is about half way between freezing and normal body temperature

An odd thing with the clothing of the fisherdwarf I've looked at is that it seems the DFHack enhanced info of the dress (and other clothing) disappears in between the start of the save and when the dorf starts melting, but looking at the item the temperature with gui/gm-editor it seems to still be below normal body temperature.

Stripping the fisherdorf of all clothing (by setting the garbage_collect flag of each item) seems to save the fisherdwarf from starting to bleed when others do, so I suspect something is happening to the clothing or in an interaction between clothing and the body.

Edit: Just stripping away the dress seems to be sufficient to save the dorf. The DFHack enhanced info didn't decay on the other clothing items either.

Edit 2: The script association is a red herring: that's an unrelated bug in the script... Still, I can't understand why removing the dress causes the heat buildup to stop.

Edit 3: It seems stripping the Chief Medical Dwarf of all clothing somehow blocks bleeding from starting there as well. However, stripping just the dress didn't seem to help, but it may well be related to some other clothing item with an elevated temperature.
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: Atomic Chicken on May 16, 2018, 12:52:37 pm
Sounds to me like the thermal insulation provided by clothing is permitting units to heat up to melting point. Perhaps it's an issue with insulation calculations?
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 16, 2018, 01:19:40 pm
The ambient outdoor temperature is normal. I haven't checked the underground temperature, but that should be fixed at a temperature too low for my comfort (but probably OK for Englishmen) unless actively heated by e.g. magma or fire.

Buggy temperature calculations could be suspected, but as I think the issue has been seen both with temperature calculation enabled and disabled that doesn't sound like it's the cause. If removing clothing causes the issue to go away some very weird "insulation" heat explosion might be involved, however.

The issue seems to be a fairly recent one, but I can't recall seeing anything in the release notes that could somehow have this as a side effect (although my memory could definitely do with an upgrade).

Edit: The following DFHack script drops all worn* clothing on the ground (rather than destroy it), and as far as I could see it prevented faint/bleeding entries from appearing on the medical screen for the few minutes I looked at it, but given that we don't know what caused the issue in the first place, we have no idea what happens when the buggers get new clothes.
Code: [Select]
[code]
function strip_clothing ()
  for i, unit in ipairs (df.global.world.units.active) do
    if unit.pos.x ~= -30000 and
       unit.pos.y ~= -30000 and
       unit.pos.z ~= -30000 and
       not unit.flags1.tame then
      for k = #unit.inventory -1, 0, -1 do
        local item = unit.inventory [k]
       
        if not item.item.flags.in_job and
           item.item.flags.owned then
          if item.item._type == df.item_armorst or
             item.item._type == df.item_shoesst or
             item.item._type == df.item_helmst or
             item.item._type == df.item_glovesst or
             item.item._type == df.item_pantsst then
            item.item.pos.x = unit.pos.x
            item.item.pos.y = unit.pos.y
            item.item.pos.z = unit.pos.z
            item.item.flags.in_inventory = false
            item.item.flags.on_ground = true
           
            unit.inventory:erase (k)
          end
        end
      end
    end
  end
end

strip_clothing ()
[/code]

*: as in equipped, not subjected to wear...
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: Miles_Umbrae on May 16, 2018, 03:38:03 pm
How do I report this bug then?
I really don't want Urist McDorf to go Thermonuclear on me all the time...
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 16, 2018, 03:51:20 pm
They won't go thermonuclear, just melt... ;)

Bug reports are made on the bug tracker http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/login_page.php (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/login_page.php). Try to check if the bug has been reported previously, and, if so, add a link to your save (which is already on DFFD) to that report, as well as any relevant info.
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: clockwork on May 16, 2018, 04:43:32 pm
are you using any mods at all?
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: Miles_Umbrae on May 16, 2018, 08:26:38 pm
are you using any mods at all?

The only things I'm using is what's in this: PeridexisErrant's Starter Pack 0.44.05-r03
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: clockwork on May 16, 2018, 10:43:27 pm
It's possible it was ironed out during the newer releases.
but yeah that definitely sounds like a bug.
Title: Re: Perplexing medical emergency
Post by: PatrikLundell on May 17, 2018, 04:15:35 am
It's possible it was ironed out during the newer releases.
but yeah that definitely sounds like a bug.
Nope. I made my investigation with 0.44.10 both with and without DFHack. Also, there has been nothing in the release notes indicating such an issue to have been addressed.